Clair de lune is great.
Welcome to our gay house where we chat about things. I'm Katelyn.
And I'm Goose.
And today we are going to be talking about the novella A Spindle Splintered by Alex E. Harrow, which is a queer and modern retelling of Sleeping Beauty. So basically this book is a multiverse reworking of Sleeping Beauty where the characters are queer and the girls win. We have some guiding questions. Yes. Such as? Yes.
What makes a queer story a queer story? Hmm? How is disability represented in this story? Hmm? And what is the purpose of rewriting this story as a modern-day fairy tale? Hmm. All of this and more today on Queer Chatter. But first, a word from our not-sponsors. Clink! It’s happening to me. My tongue is on fire. That’s the black pepper. Wow. It's honestly not that bad. I don't hate it. Yeah. I have heartburn now. So today we are recording at 6 30 p.m. and I said, Caitlin, we can simply we simply cannot have an energy drink this late. So we went for Vive Organic Doctor Crafted Immunity. It’s a little shot worth of turmeric and ginger and other stuff. Yeah. So you could say that we're gonna be supercharged by the natural organicky goodness in this beverage. Shall we switch?
Yeah, so I picked up the original flavor and Goose got elderberry. All right, shoot it back, two, three. Oh, it tastes like dirt. Oh! Ha! Oh my god! I don't like the elderberry. Oh. Ehh. Yours is... Did you throw up a little bit? No, but yours is awful. Yours is awful. This tastes like dirt. Ooh. This... This is a no-go for me. Ummm. I think I need Tums. Yeah. Quick... Quick break while we bring in another word from another sponsor. Uh, rating? Um, my rating is, uh, BELCH out of, um, spicy. Yeah, I agree with that. I agree with that. I see. That's what that is. Click!
So... It's been a while, huh? I'm sure our Nolistiners have really missed us.
I sure have missed them. All four bots of them.
Uh, yeah, we in our last episode teased a, uh, tear-ranking episode. Yeah. While it was fun. Yeah. And some parts of it were funny. Um, it wasn't good audio for anyone except for me and Caitlin. Yeah, no. It was wandering. It was aimless. We recorded for five hours. Yeah. And I'm proud of the episode. Um, and she'll never see the light of day unless perhaps we get patrons and they want to give me that cheddar to warrant me editing a five hour long podcast episode. So from that, we have decided to, in honor of Pride Month, come out anew as Queer Chatter. Our podcast will now focus exclusively on queer stories. So you know what to expect, and we have an easier time picking things and don't end up making an episode on gonzojournalism. Yeah. Because we all really enjoyed that.
So if you're – this is your first episode, welcome. Welcome. Maybe wait a while to listen to the previous ones. Are they funny? Yes. Do we say interesting things? Also yes. But do they make any sense? Yes. So, yeah. Yes they do. But to the greater context of what we're trying to do here, not so much. Yeah, exactly.
On top of that, this is our third time attempting to record this episode. Technically our second and a half time. Yeah, because the first time we only got in maybe 20 minutes before we realized that the audio was fucked. And the second time, I had finished editing the entire thing. And did a really fucking rockin' job. And then my computer crashed literally as I was trying to upload it. So... Um, we have a lot of new thoughts, so this is one of the few episodes that I'm really, I was like, as I was editing, I was like, oh man, there's a lot more that I wish I could have said. So, um, so I'm not sad to have to re-record this. And as well as kind of being able to go through and edit that last episode when we've really come out of that with, with a new approach to life. on our podcast. So things will be a little more organized, a little more structured. We're gonna like go back to writing notes for the episodes because our best episodes were the ones that we were like actually really preparing for. So you can look forward to it's a new and improved queer chatter. Happy Pride, bitches. Happy fucking Pride.
So I guess now, why don't we get into it? Yeah. Let's get into it, yeah.
A spindle splintered. is, as we've already briefly gone over, a queerified, modernized, into-the-spider-verse type retelling of Sleeping Beauty. Zinnia Gray is our main character. She is a 21-year-old woman who has suffered from a terminal illness caused by environmental teratogens called General Roseville Malady. It's a fictitious illness in this universe. Yeah. And the story follows Zinnia. It sets the tone where she's obsessed with Sleeping Beauty specifically. It guides her to study fairy tales in university. The story opens on her 21st birthday for all intents and purposes, where she is then zip-zap-zopped into Sleeping Beauty world. And from there, she's kind of like planning out how to perhaps save herself and said discovered Sleeping Beauty from the fate of death slash sleeping for 100 years. They go to Zelandine, the OG Sleeping Beauty in fairy tales before fairy tales. Zelandine is a medieval story. Zelandine turns out to be a good guy who's trying to protect princesses from their fates by hopefully moving them on into a better time. and from there Zinnia realizes she has to figure out a different way to save herself and Primrose, and thus figures out how to jerry-rig the multiverse thing, brings in a bunch of other sleeping beauties and her best friend. They kick some ass, they save the day. Badabing, badaboom. We wanted to briefly discuss like... fairy tale genre characteristics and queer theory in literature kind of just pave a clean road from which we can begin to discuss this book, which is a queer retelling of a very well-known fairy tale.
So queer theory is a lens through which to view the world. It's a lens that you can apply to basically anything. You can use queer theory to analyze a film. You can use queer theory to analyze a story. I use queer theory in the way that I conceptualize my clients and approach mental health and human development. So it's something that is very broad that can be applied to anything. So for our purposes today, we're really looking at how, like the core tenants of queer theory. And so in the words of my professor, because I think he put this really well, Queer theory is essentially interrogating the structures that created queer oppression. And this is really what queer literary analysis is doing and queer stories within queer theory are doing, right? So this is not only a queer story, but this is also a lens through which we're going to read this queer story. But it's sort of the core of it is this interrogation of like, how did we get where we are today? One of the big parts of it is how we look at established binaries that we take for granted. And so there is a tendency in western society to view things as like one or the other. So you have like male and female, you have straight gay, and bisexual people, pansexual people, non-binary people face added layers of discrimination compared to gay, lesbian, trans man, trans woman. Because in our world of binary, even in a queer context, like when we're so hung up on binary on figuring out one versus the other, like things are black and white, how do you fit in someone who's bi or how do you fit in someone who's non-binary? So that's a big part of it. And then the last part of this, that sort of blends into literary research, like more like human research, development research and stuff is this concept that identity is a cultural construct. And so queer theory is looking at what it is to be a man, what it is to be a woman, what it is to be heterosexual. These are socially constructed. And when we talk about gender and sexuality in a lot of ways, these are socially constructed, right? What it is to be a man and a woman is very different in the US than it is in other places. And even within the US. there's a lot of different meanings and cultural contexts to how people perform gender. At the same time, that's not to say that you're performing your gender, which means that you're not actually trans or whatever. It's just saying that the meaning that we place on these identities is very socially and culturally contextualized. Yeah, so. And kind of from all of this and something I've been bringing into my life is this concept of queering, right? And so there's a book called Queering Your Therapy Practice by Julie Tilson, and she describes queering as when we question and disrupt taken for granted practices and we imagine new possibilities. We break rules in order to liberate people who have been held hostage by what the rules require or prevent. And I think that's a really important lens, especially when considering the why of like the larger question of why, why is this the queer retelling instead of just like a feminist retelling, right? Is when we queer things, we are liberating. That's sort of like the overview of queer theory. There's a lot more that you can find out about for yourself, but that's sort of like queer theory in a nutshell.
So now that you understand Queer Theory, let us dive into the other half of the story, so to speak, which is the fairy tale part of it. Given that it's based on Sleeping Beauty for all intents and purposes, it carries a lot of that fairy tale weight on its back, and there are a lot of intentional choices that Alex E. Harrow makes in writing and organizing her characters and the stories in which they occur. In order to kind of reflect the original subject matter. And there are some very specific genre characteristics that come with a fairy tale as a fairly specific genre in and of itself and something that's so old and practiced developed through hundreds if not thousands of years of oral retellings of stories. But across the board, some of the most important pieces are how the characters are written, what roles they fulfill, how the setting works, and how the internal logic works. Characters are flat. They are more symbols than humans. You're not really supposed to think about them outside of the context of the story because they don't exist for that purpose. The setting is abstract. It's not in any specific setting, any specific time period, it all kind of exists within its own abstract, mysterious locale. Similar to the kind of abstract, almost nonsensical setting and time period of fairy tales, the logic exists in a very nonsensical and intuitive way. It relies on its own very internal structures. you're not really supposed to question or think about them, you're just following the linear story. If you start to pick them apart and say, well, why does this happen? Why does a prince walk into a tower, see a sleeping princess, and say, Imma kiss that? Don't think about it. Do normal people do that? No, but that's not the point. And then to kind of tie this all together, you have these character tropes that... almost every fairy tale character can fit into one of them. They're called the dramatis personae. Fancy. I know I got some fancy words. But in normal person layman's terms, they're just character tropes. So there's the villain who is basically the person who opposes the protagonist and eggs the story on, so to speak. They're not necessarily evil, they're just oppositional. You have the donor, also known as the provider. These are the people who prepare the heroes and often give gifts or special knowledge and wisdom. You've got the helper, which is the support system around the hero. That's the prince's horse or magical sword or what have you. The princess, which is pretty self-explanatory, your damsel in distress. You've got the dispatcher, who is the person who sends said hero on their mission, the hero himself or herself, so mostly himself, who is the person rescuing the princess, saving the day, making the things happen, making decisions, and the false hero, which is a person who attempts to go on the quest and fails. They often fall in alignment with the villain because their values are obscured or… not desirable or they're just – they show weakness or what have you. But these character tropes pop up in all fairy tales because their fairy tales are all stories about what it is to be human, and they're very simple. They follow simple structures, so you have individual characters who are representations of ideals fulfilling specific roles, which is what these tropes are. Then also just a very cool thing about fairy tales is that there have been systems to organize them and categorize them. The ATU structure is probably the most famous and well-known that categorizes fairy tales via numbers. It's kind of akin to the Dewey Decimal System. Sleeping Beauty is a 410 story, which is basically a princess who falls asleep. I love that. I love learning new things. That's the fairy tale genre, and there's a lot to pick apart there with this story. And especially once we compare it and kind of blend it with queer theory looking at this story, there's a lot to think about with how characters fall into different tropes, how this logic and the flatness of the characters kind of are changed and muddled in this story as an attempt to... queer and rework and modernize Sleeping Beauty. So I think there's kind of a lot to chew on there.
Yeah. I feel like this is gonna be... These are lenses through which we are examining this story.
Yes. This is the pavement.
Yes. It's worth noting that there is something called Critical Disability Theory, which is basically another way of examining stories. We are going to discuss disability today, but since neither one of us really has a lot of first-hand experience with the disability she has in the story, we are more in the business of posing questions today than we are really attempting to answer anything and dissect it. It's something we're interested in becoming more familiar with. and are always open to hearing other people. That's one reason we hope to get some more listeners is just to have people who maybe have more direct experience or more knowledge on this who can add to the conversation.
Yeah, to create a discussion. In trying to figure out what is the purpose of recreating the story, we have to think about who the characters the story circles around are. And I think the four most important, probably, are Zinnia, who's our main character, Primrose, who's our princess, Charm, who is our prince charming, and then Zelandine, who's the evil fairy, and meeting her is a big turning point in the story, and she's where the wool is kind of taken both off of the characters and the reader's eyes. and the context of the world and the why of what is happening is more clearly understood and seen.
Yeah. It makes me want to revisit those character tropes you were talking about and assigning those.
Yeah, so I think a good way to approach this is who are the fairy tale characters, who are the modern characters, and what happens at the turning point? because I think when they meet Zelandine, the character roles shift very dramatically. So-
Zinnia is the princess. She is born with a terminal illness. Anyone who is born with generalized Roseville malady dies at the age of 21. That's it. You have a finite life sentence. They've not been able to find any cure, so her whole life is waiting until she turns 21, essentially touches her finger upon the spindle. I hear yeah, proverbially touch his finger on the spindle and dies. Charm is her hero. Charm is going to school, taking like shitty jobs with Pfizer, with Pfizer, right, to try to research on the cutting edge of biochemistry and biotech and shit like that. Exactly.
And. like Zinnia is very closed off and closeted. She's up in her tower. She doesn't really talk to anybody. She doesn't have any friends other than Charm. Her parents are struggling with the fact that their child is destined to die, and that causes their relationship to be weird and strained in a lot of ways.
Right, which is similar to the stories, right? Where you have these parents who are so desperate to protect the Sleeping Beauty figure. from death or from eternal sleep.
They burn every spindle in the kingdom.
And she doesn't have a quality of life, right? So that's something a major theme that the story is exploring is the dangers of that isolation.
And then we have Primrose and Zelandine, who are our fairy tale characters. Primrose, when we first meet her, is a pretty straightforward Princess. She's destined to die. She's terrified of going to sleep because she knows she'll wake up and be sleepwalking to the spinning wheel to prick her finger and die or fall asleep. Zelandine is an evil fairy who cursed Primrose to her fate of sleeping for 100 years. She's the person who opposes, so to speak. the progression of the princess and the desire of her father's goal for her to be married and so on and so forth and to live her life as the perfect little princess. That's pretty straightforward. It's pretty cut and dry. We've got the princess and the villain. There are other characters in the story that fulfill other roles, but I think for the purposes of this discussion, those four are the most important. Then I think something really interesting happens when Zinnia and Primrose go on their adventure to meet the evil fairy to try and undo the curse. What Zinnia hopes to happen is cure her as well so she can continue to live because she sees them parallels as curses. I think the reader's understanding and the character's understanding of the roles they play. does almost a full 180. The most important one, I think, is that the evil fairy, Zelandine, goes from being a villain who cursed the princess to being the donor, the person who bestows a gift upon the hero. That gift being – or in this case, bestowing a gift upon the princess – but that gift being… escape from what is condemned to be an unhappy marriage and an unhappy life in the hopes that in a hundred years when Primrose wakes up, the world will be a better place for her as a queer person.
Yeah, so Primrose is a lesbian. Zeladine has the ability to see into the future. She saw that Primrose would marry this man and be unhappy because she was forced into this. into being with a man. And that is the gift. And I think it's also interesting, the donor typically bestows the hero with a gift. And I think that is also an intentional shift here, right? Is that charm is the hero in a lot of ways, but also Primrose and- And the other Sleeping Beauty's who come in through the multiverse connection. Yeah, and Zinnia are all heroes in their own ways. So it's also the story is looking at reclaiming agency in the face of a fate that is still out of your hands. Yeah. Right? Like Zinnia or Primrose learns from this interaction. There's nothing that she can do to change the gift rate of 100 year sleep. She just has to do it and there's nothing that she can do to remove the spell. Yeah. And so she is a hero and that the gift is not just the 100 year sleep but also the gift of agency to say, I'm choosing to go into this of my own volition, rather than like running into this because I have no other choice. Yeah.
Um, this is also, I think, where Zinnia's character changes from being the princess to, I would say, a dispatcher or a hero. She is on one hand a hero because she's she's the one guiding all of these movements. She's out here making moves. Yeah, she's making the decisions out here. But she's also the dispatcher. She's the one who brings the other princesses into the story and brings charm, who is kind of our true hero, into the story. She sends, she goes out and connects with these other sleeping beauties in the multiverse and to charm and brings them in order to save Primrose, while Zinnia herself is kind of on the verge of death. Like, her body is starting to shut down. She, as an individual, cannot do anything, so she brings the troops in.
No, yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. Yes, in a lot of ways, she is a hero, but yeah, very much so, is facilitating the rescue of Primrose.
That shift happens really suddenly, and I think that's one of the really cool important parts about how this is written. And also, if you kind of start to bleed that in with queer theory and challenging these hierarchies and set structures, Alex E. Harrow takes the story and these characters that are set in very flat, unmoving roles, changes one thing, and flips all of them on their head. Right. She turns the fairy. into a gift giver as opposed to an evil being and gives agency back to all of these characters.
Yeah, and I don't know, so I guess this is part of our discussion last time. Caitlin doesn't remember any of it because Caitlin didn't re-listen to the episode two different times while editing. But figuring out what parts of the story for me are queer. versus which parts of them are feminist. And there's obviously overlap, those aren't two mutually exclusive things. But I feel like restructuring their roles to me feels like a very feminist retelling. And I don't know that in and of itself is what makes this a queer story. Yeah, I agree. This has queer characters in it. Explicitly written queer characters. Yes, and at a baseline that is very important and that's doing something. Yeah. But when you're looking at like what in here is queered? Right? What is, and that's part of where this queer theory analysis comes into this is it's not just like, oh, this has, the story has queer characters as written by a queer author that makes it queer. It's this additional lens of what is the story queering? What is the story doing? How does the story exist in conversation with the oppressive systems in which it is written and in which it exists.
Yeah. And I think the best way to really tackle that is to blend that with the fairy tale genre, which is the oppressive system is the strict roles that these characters have to play. And the queering is Alex taking that and saying, that is not the truth. And pushing the characters to leave their flatness and their role... prison, I guess, behind, and to challenge that and take on their own destiny.
Well, so, okay, so my reaction to- it's a good thing I noticed that she hit the pause button on recording.
That is a good thing. What do you think? that I have some notes to contribute. We're trying to work.
So my response to what you just said several minutes ago, about 15 minutes ago, is I do think that it is queer, right, to challenge existing structures. I also feel like. that is something that is done in modern retellings, modern feminist retellings of fairy tales. Absolutely. I think that's why it is a queer thing and it doesn't feel inherently queer. So I don't know, and I don't mean to say that. I don't wanna take away from the power of this as a queer story. And I also, I think I'm just, in structurally, that feels a little more feminist than it does queer, if that makes sense. So then that makes me, okay, that makes me wonder. Take a story like Good Omens. Yes. Or Our Flag Means Death. What makes those queer? Versus like, I think maybe that's where we can go from here, because Our Flag Means Death is queer in that if you, they are, it's not just like changing roles, right? It's... the way that love is expressed, the way that characters... I don't know, do you know what I'm saying?
I do. What it kind of feels like to me is that our flag means death is told from an undeniably queer perspective. You are following Steed, for all intents and purposes, and his Queerness is what defines his worldview. When you are following Zinnia, it is not her queerness that defines her worldview, it is a facet of her personality and her identity. But it's not, I guess, something that is discussed. It doesn't really inform the way she interacts with the world. She's like, wow, Primrose is really beautiful. Okay, next.
I don't think it's just a matter of like, I don't think it's Steed's perspective. And that's why I also like bring in Good Omens, because that is like a very queer story. So like what from Good Omens is like queer to you?
That's the interesting thing about Good Omens is I think it is a queer story in that the characters are queer, at least in the show, are like pretty much expressly queer. But I don't know. Maybe it's the fact that the primary characters in question are the ones in love. But I don't know about that either. Hmm.
I also think it's interesting that the two examples I went to are of two men. And I feel like it is very easy to queer male expressions of love. not male expressions, but the expression of love between men, particularly cis men. Yeah, I think the thing with that is like if you feminize them a little bit, then they're gay. Right, men express feeling. It's queer, right? Yeah. And that's like a reduction, right? But I'm thinking like, what is a queer story featuring lesbians? Yeah. Right?
Have I even read any very pointedly queer stories about lesbians that were intentionally queer?
And we're the focus of the story. And from that perspective, it's almost like, I feel like lesbian stories, or we should just say sapphic love in general, is at a disadvantage maybe in queering itself.
And I also think it's just a far less common thing when it's not being like objectivized. Objective. Objectified. That's the one. We got there.
And that's something we've been talking about in one of my classes is like, we've come a long way, right? And our flag means death. One of the main, like the main love interests is a man of color, right? And it's also like, he's with another white man, right? And it's also two men and two cis men. So I think culturally, yeah. What is, like, the unique queer lens of lesbians compared to – because again, a lot of our media and the media – I don't think we've reviewed anything that was –
Yeah. The closest we get is Carmilla, and that in its original setting was supposed to be more of a warning around womanly love than –
Right. It's not a story about lesbians, right? I mean, it is and it isn't. Yeah. I don't know.
That's one of those things that is it a failing of the concept of queering and queer theory? Of our application of that. Of our application of it that we are struggling to kind of parse this out from a feminist lens, or is it a very distinct lack of positive specifically queer, sapphic media.
So we just took a 10 minute break. We ate some candy, Sour Punch straws, Airheads Extremes, please sponsor us. Yes, they're our favorites. And collected our thoughts, because this has gone in a completely unexpected direction for us. So we want to differentiate, I think, between This is a queer story with queer characters. That is, it's not, is this a queer story? Is it not a queer story? It's not up for debate, yeah. Right, it is a queer story. I think what we're wondering is what are the possibilities for a queer story? And one of the things that we keep coming back to is this notion that... Like, what is the purpose of these characters being queer? Why? Well, and something I want to be careful of, right? Because I'm like, oh, well, struggle isn't a part of the queer narrative outside of Primrose. And I'm like, why does that have to be a part of it? Right. We should be able to have queer stories, especially from queer authors that don't focus on the struggle of being queer. Yeah. And discrimination and discrimination. We have enough of that. Exactly. So it's not. And the purpose of these characters being queer is just that they're queer. Right. I also don't think that there needs to be an express purpose. Right. I agree. I think it's more so for me, there are structural parts of this story that I feel like could be further queered.
one of the things that has struck me as weird from the first time I read it is Zelandine's reason for putting Primrose to sleep, like her reason for the curse, and also the timeline of it. Putting Primrose to sleep for a hundred years because she is a lesbian in the hopes that she will have some independence and the world will change, it just feels pointless to me. Like, in a hundred years Primrose is gonna be a spinster, not an accepted lesbian. So it just feels like I think it might have been more interesting if Zelandine was going to put Primrose to sleep until she could fulfill her purpose. rather than putting her to sleep for an arbitrary time. And I think that would also be an interesting riff on the original fairy tale. And a more interesting take on Zelandine's character, Zelandine is so desperate to rescue these princesses that she's just putting them to sleep indefinitely. There is no end to that timeline until they are actually safe.
That makes me wonder, though. And I don't know, maybe, I don't know. Who knows if she actually intended any of this shit, right? That's, who fucking cares? That's the fun part of literary analysis is none of it matters and we're just here having a good time. Right. But so from that perspective, it makes me wonder, is Zelandine, it's not stated whether she like what her sexual orientation is, right? And I don't think that matters. I just farted. Yeah. Which is why I was laughing. Because that's the thing. The resolution to this story wasn't, she goes to sleep for 100 years, she wakes up and things are magically better. If she had gone to sleep and woken up and things were better, I feel like that's missing out on a large part of queer experience, which is like, I can't just go to sleep and wake up and things are better. The resolution to this story is that they literally break the multiverse.
Yeah. And Primrose just leaves. She leaves for a better world instead of waiting for one.
And I think it also parallels Zinnia's life, where Zellandine is occupying the same role as the parents in all of these stories and in Zinnia's world, where she's saying, here's my gift to you, I'm solving your problems in the best way that I can, which is how a lot of queer history has been. I have been in situations with certain people. where people like shit talk me for using they them pronouns and what are trans people? What are non-binary people? Bisexuals are just confused. And I feel like there is this attitude that queer people are the ones creating problems. If I could just stop asking people to extend themselves to learn how to use a new name and new pronouns for me, my life would be easier. I'm the reason that I'm upset about this because I'm too sensitive and I'm expecting too much from other people and I need to be more understanding. And so I feel like as a society, at least in like a Western context and particularly a US context, there is this notion that queer people and trans people just need to go to sleep and things will be better. Yeah. Like, Zelandine's intervention is to say your queerness is the problem. if you can just bottle that up until society magically decides to change itself. And it's also, if Zellandine's solution is to just put queer people to sleep until things get better, things are never going to get better because you're not going to have queer people who are able to advocate and normalize.
And I think that's an interesting... Right? I'm like, is this actually so queer? The most meta queer story I've ever read in my life? And also, okay, okay. think about it. What's the word for a feminist who isn't intersectional? Terf? A little less aggressive than that, maybe. I don't get terf vibes from Zelandine, but you know. Racist? Well, let's just say, Zelandine, like, if you're really getting into the weeds now, Zelandine is like a white feminist. Yes. She comes in here, she's like, I was raped. that was the worst thing that can happen to a person in a lot of ways. I experienced that. I will never let anything like that happen again to another person. that I can help. that I can help. yes. And that is so powerful and so important, but her scope is limited. And her goal is to protect and prevent as opposed to empower and change. And I think that's a really interesting, like, feminism is so important. It is not the answer for saving queer people. Right. Yeah. One person's suffering cannot be transcribed onto another person to save them.
Right. Yeah. And like, thinking about she is a magic fairy witch and we don't know... the full extent of her powers, right? She seems pretty fucking powerful. And her solution to this is not to blip you into a better world, but to put you to sleep. Or even to, I don't know, like fucking manipulate fucking kings and queens, right? And like she's using her power to save the individual. And by save, like you said, she's trying to prevent and protect. And it's a valuable thing, right? It's important that she's protecting these people, right? It's not to say that that's wrong. We should obviously be protecting people from sexual assault. And she is unable to see a larger picture. Yeah. Yeah, and I really do think that's a really good analogy for white feminism. It's a limited ability to see- The wider world. Yeah. Pfft.
Absolutely galaxy-braining this shit.
That's crazy. Yes. Alex E. Harrow, please come on our podcast. This is fucking intense.
Yeah. And also, as an aside, this is one of my favorite things about literary analysis, because regardless of whether or not Alex E. Harrow had this master plan and thought all this shit out and left these, like, tiny little tales for us to follow… that shit exists in our world, it exists in her experience of the world, therefore it translates into her writing whether or not she wants it to, and we can read into that. Zelandine being the way she is, her making that choice is intentional in more ways than one.
Right. And like you're saying, regardless of her intentions, it's like the fact that the resolution to this story isn't that Primrose accepts her fate, is very much queer in and of itself.
Yeah, because that's the thing. That's the ending. So that turning point that we talked about earlier, that is like where Primrose and Zinnia become heroes in their own story. That is fulfilled, not by them making the choice to walk into their destiny without being afraid. That is fulfilled when they say, that's not my destiny. Yes. And that's just, I think that's why this book is so cool and also it feels so muddy, is because there's just a lot of nuance to be had there. The ending isn't what the story sets up. The ending is a breaking of all of this world and all of these fairy tale tropes and all of these things. Charm saves the day, she saves the princess. However, what really saves the princess is getting the fuck out of there. Yep.
And Primrose chooses to leave, right? And that's where I think there's a difference between, like, a straight person saying just Leave the country if you don't like it the way it is. Mm-hmm. Move to Canada. Mm-hmm. Okay, there's a lot of reasons why a lot of queer people can't move to Canada. First of all. Mm-hmm. Second of all, it's a straight person being like, your queerness is the problem. If you just go away for a little bit, things will get better. Mm-hmm. Just suck it up. Yeah. Versus a queer person who says, this is not safe for me, I'm choosing to leave for my own well-being.
Yes. You know. Which is like, would I like to do that? Yes. Do I get the option? No. I don't live in a fairy tale multiverse. However, it feels good to have it happen to other characters. Yes, it does. It captures that not every story is a tragic one. You have agency, even if the world sucks. The world we live in is not perfect. Zinnia is – or not Zinnia – Primrose is not moving into a perfect world where everything will be hunky dory.
I think one thing – transitioning if you're ready to transition. to the disability conversation. Not that these are separate conversations, but Zinnia, I don't know how, I don't know if this is actually a good transition. But like, I just one thing, I don't know, you had said something earlier that we were talking about acceptance of their fate. And it just really made me think that Zinnia had spent her entire life sort of resigned But resignation and acceptance are two different things. Exactly. Resignation is like a passive, like, well, this is the way things are. Whereas acceptance is like an active state of being. I might not be okay with it. That doesn't mean it's okay, but I accept that this is the reality. Yeah.
And in a lot of youth, like when I read this story, I see Zinnia as kind of being in a state of stasis until she enters the world of fairy tale. Like, she pursues things that make her happy, but she also feels very stuck. She doesn't interact with other people who have generalized Roseville malady. She kind of, Up until she's 16 or 17, she stays closeted in her home. She doesn't even fight really against her parents desperately trying to protect her. It felt like in the face of finally really deeply accepting her mortality. she uses her last moments to save people, which she had fought against. She didn't go to rallies, she didn't go to protests, she didn't go to meetups, she didn't do any of the things that you're supposed to do in the real world, in her world. But when it clicks for her, when she realizes that there is nothing that can save her, she kicks it into high gear. brings it all around. That is when she gets back to her world and finds out that basically the clock on her illness has been reset and she doesn't know how much time she has, but she knows she has time. She decides that she's gonna keep doing what she's been doing. She's gonna fucking save people or keep doing what she had just discovered. She's… going to do everything in her power to save other princesses. Throughout the multiverse. Throughout the multiverse. She's in the Spider-verse. Yes. Which I think is also interesting and like, I mean, I don't really know how to chew on this or how to approach this, but she chooses to travel the multiverse and save princesses rather than sticking around in her world and trying to… fight against generalized Roseville malady. Not fight against, but fight against the corporation. Fight against the corporation and kind of try to find some treatment, some cure, especially because she has more time, whatever. And I think that's also very – it's just interesting that she had success in saving these princesses. There has been no success. There has been no retribution. Yeah. against these corporations and for General Roseville malady. So instead of sticking in her world and trying to do this thing that feels pointless to her, because nothing has happened and she believes nothing will happen, she goes and does something that she has found success in, and she will save as many people as she can doing that thing.
And I think that's something that I'm interested in from a disability rhetoric or disability analysis perspective is the resolution to the happy end to this story is she, the clock has reset and she says, I have learned to love myself and others and I will now take every moment to spend with those who love me and fully appreciate what I have. And instead it's that like, she's like, all right, I got shit to do, bye. Right, and she has closure, right? She talks, closure as much as closure can be obtained, right? Can tell I'm a therapist. But like she talks with her parents, especially her dad and she's like look, I love you. I'm not leaving because I'm mad at you It's just something I like I want to live my life, right? And so And again, I don't have any definitive answer, but I don't know. I think it's interesting that the ending is not her Staying it's not that she learned to appreciate right? It's that she Learned what truly makes life worth living for her.
Yeah I think in a similar vein, I expected it in some ways to end with her fighting the good fight. Same. And taking these evil corporations to task, motherfucker! And getting her DNA coded and figuring out what's going on and finding a cure, finding a way to prevent it. And instead she's like, uh-uh, I'm gone, y'all. Yeah. Have fun. I'll see you when I see you.
And I think that's an interesting thing to think about. In Zinnia's version of the Sleeping Beauty tale, there is no nuance to the villain. The villain is just the villain. It is a very flat character. I think that's interesting from a structural perspective because in the fairy tale version is where you really see the multi-dimensional character tropes, but in the real life, like the real world, things are pretty simple. the villain is the corporation and also the system which failed to hold it accountable. Yeah. Like, there are more clear flat structures. And I also think that is kind of true in a sense that when you live in a society that has so many, like, what are you supposed to do?
Yeah. Like, it's hard to feel empowered. And like what I... do or say counts. Like that's one of the biggest things with like voting and getting people to vote is you have to convince people that their vote matters, but it doesn't fucking feel like it.
Right. And one of the things I'm pretty sure at one point she says like, sure, the corporation faced, it got some fines. Yeah, like what's $20,000 in the face of a fucking Fortune 500 company? Yeah. And so that's the thing. Even the structures that we have in place are nothing. Right? And it's like, I don't know, almost like our systems is like is the false hero. Yeah. In a sense. And like, I think it shifts the perspective from disabled people need to be like constantly fighting the good fight and advocating for themselves and loving their family and appreciating. Like, I think it's sad. And also, I think she sort of part of that acceptance for her was, I'm not going to change things probably. And by the way, even if I can, let's say I have another 21 years of life, I don't owe that to anyone else. It is not her job as someone with a terminal illness caused by a corporation to fix the system. She should be allowed to live her life. So in her choosing to leave this world, she is. rejecting the notion that in order for her existence to be worth anything, she has to be fighting for something, for something greater than herself. And in the end, she chooses herself. And I think that's really meaningful.
Yeah. And I also think it's really powerful for Zinnia that in the face of what feels like an insurmountable evil and barrier, she says, I, as an individual, might not be able to stop that and save myself and save the people I love from that. but I have found a way to save people, even if it's a handful of people, and I'm going to do it. My calling might be to save people, but it's not to what seems to her, what she perceives as wasting her life doing something pointless.
One thing that I do think is worth talking about, which you brought up last time, was that she has generalized Roseville malady, which is a made-up illness. And last time we were sort of talking about like, what does it mean that she chose like a fake illness? And in thinking about genre tropes, I think it's like the purpose of the fairy tales to be ambiguous.
Exactly, yeah. Yeah, and that's also one of the things that like, when we came to this in our last time talking about it, I do remember this, is like, we opened it up. We were like, I don't... This is a thing and I there is a discussion to be had there But I haven't the foggiest idea of how to approach it. I don't know if it's good that it's a fictitious illness I don't know if it's neutral. I don't know if it's a bad thing. Would it be more empowering if it were a real illness or Is the fact that it's supposed to be an ambiguous and abstract set aspect of a fairy tale that like That's a good enough reason or does it not need to have a reason like I just Yeah. Also, I just had a funny little brain thing, which like, generalized Roseville melody, the Grimm's version of Sleeping Beauty's name is Briar Rose. Just, you know, flowers and stuff.
Oh my god, and generalized Roseville melody is Grimm. Oh my fucking god. She's going to listen to this episode, she's not, but she's going to listen to this, like, obviously. And or she's going to be like, I don't know what love. Or should be like, you're fucking geniuses. Be my best friends. Yes. Please. Thank you. Part of what spoke to me a lot in Zinnia's character is, and this is something we've talked about at length in the old version of this episode that is lost to time in memoriam, is Zinnia spends a lot of the book trying to figure out if Primrose is gay or not. Mm-hmm. I think there is a tendency to try to pinpoint and fit queer identities into boxes. And I think Zinnia is still very much in that mindset. Because there's also these characters are so young. Right, she's 21, right? And I know when I was that age, that was very important to me. And also, she's the kind of gay that says I'm 75% straight. And I'm like, if you have to say that. So she's clearly- She gives chaotic bi energy. Yeah, 1000% like chaotic bisexual energy all the way. Her first kiss was with her best friend and then she said, nope, I'm a dying girl, I mustn't love anybody. No, I'm clearly heterosexual and I don't actually have feelings for you. Yeah, and I said- And that is very queer. That's queer as fuck. Yes. Like, and that's my experience growing up. I had so many friends when we were like, you know, like 12 and 13 before we even really understood what that meant. who'd be like, hey, I think I have a crush on you. And I'd be like, oh, I don't reciprocate those feelings because I'm dead inside. But uh. Do you want a kiss about it? No, but I was just gonna say, yeah, that's no problem. But like, you know, and it wasn't, it wasn't a thing. Like none of us knew that was a queer part of our growing up experience. But like, that is so much of being queer is. It's like stumbling on shit. Stumbling on to shit, yeah. And being like, oh, I have a crush on my friend and that's okay. We're just going to kiss about it and then move on. And I look forward to the future versions of this story because that wasn't resolved in this one, which makes sense. I don't think it was meant to be resolved. A lot of this was her dealing with her illness. And so I'm very curious to see what the next couple books. So far there's only one more out. Yeah, but I think a third one is on the docket. And so I'm very much looking forward to seeing Zinnia's relationship. how her relationship with her queerness evolves. I think part of why it felt so important to her to like figure out Primrose was because she doesn't even know quite where she fits into everything. Yeah. So I would really recommend this book. It's a super quick read. Both of us read it in like one sitting.
It's cute, it's fun, it's funny, it's emotional. It's just, it's good. Do you have anything else to say? Um, I love a good wish fulfillment book, but that's all I got. I think that's it. Tune in. Tune in at some point. Yeah, it'll be on our Twitter probably.
Oh yeah, follow us on Twitter at QueerChatterPod. Join the discussion. Tell us your opinion. Start the discussion. Exactly. Who knows, maybe three years from now there will be a discussion you can join. That's wish fulfillment right there. We would love to hear your thoughts. And yeah, help spread the word. Like and share us on Twitter. Rate our podcast 5 stars. I don't care if you don't like it. It is transphobic of you to give us less than 5 stars. Point blank. Don't care about your opinion. I do care about your opinion.
I want you to rate it honestly and I want your honest rating to be 5 stars. So... that's it! Um... Until next time... Let's be kind to each other. That's gay. I know. Bye!
You cannot burp into the microphone while I'm in the middle of a sentence. I'm sorry, it's just the devil took control of me and I couldn't help it.
Welcome to our gay house where we chat about things. I'm Katelyn.
And I'm Goose.
And today we are going to be talking about the novella A Spindle Splintered by Alex E. Harrow, which is a queer and modern retelling of Sleeping Beauty. So basically this book is a multiverse reworking of Sleeping Beauty where the characters are queer and the girls win. We have some guiding questions. Yes. Such as? Yes.
What makes a queer story a queer story? Hmm? How is disability represented in this story? Hmm? And what is the purpose of rewriting this story as a modern-day fairy tale? Hmm. All of this and more today on Queer Chatter. But first, a word from our not-sponsors. Clink! It’s happening to me. My tongue is on fire. That’s the black pepper. Wow. It's honestly not that bad. I don't hate it. Yeah. I have heartburn now. So today we are recording at 6 30 p.m. and I said, Caitlin, we can simply we simply cannot have an energy drink this late. So we went for Vive Organic Doctor Crafted Immunity. It’s a little shot worth of turmeric and ginger and other stuff. Yeah. So you could say that we're gonna be supercharged by the natural organicky goodness in this beverage. Shall we switch?
Yeah, so I picked up the original flavor and Goose got elderberry. All right, shoot it back, two, three. Oh, it tastes like dirt. Oh! Ha! Oh my god! I don't like the elderberry. Oh. Ehh. Yours is... Did you throw up a little bit? No, but yours is awful. Yours is awful. This tastes like dirt. Ooh. This... This is a no-go for me. Ummm. I think I need Tums. Yeah. Quick... Quick break while we bring in another word from another sponsor. Uh, rating? Um, my rating is, uh, BELCH out of, um, spicy. Yeah, I agree with that. I agree with that. I see. That's what that is. Click!
So... It's been a while, huh? I'm sure our Nolistiners have really missed us.
I sure have missed them. All four bots of them.
Uh, yeah, we in our last episode teased a, uh, tear-ranking episode. Yeah. While it was fun. Yeah. And some parts of it were funny. Um, it wasn't good audio for anyone except for me and Caitlin. Yeah, no. It was wandering. It was aimless. We recorded for five hours. Yeah. And I'm proud of the episode. Um, and she'll never see the light of day unless perhaps we get patrons and they want to give me that cheddar to warrant me editing a five hour long podcast episode. So from that, we have decided to, in honor of Pride Month, come out anew as Queer Chatter. Our podcast will now focus exclusively on queer stories. So you know what to expect, and we have an easier time picking things and don't end up making an episode on gonzojournalism. Yeah. Because we all really enjoyed that.
So if you're – this is your first episode, welcome. Welcome. Maybe wait a while to listen to the previous ones. Are they funny? Yes. Do we say interesting things? Also yes. But do they make any sense? Yes. So, yeah. Yes they do. But to the greater context of what we're trying to do here, not so much. Yeah, exactly.
On top of that, this is our third time attempting to record this episode. Technically our second and a half time. Yeah, because the first time we only got in maybe 20 minutes before we realized that the audio was fucked. And the second time, I had finished editing the entire thing. And did a really fucking rockin' job. And then my computer crashed literally as I was trying to upload it. So... Um, we have a lot of new thoughts, so this is one of the few episodes that I'm really, I was like, as I was editing, I was like, oh man, there's a lot more that I wish I could have said. So, um, so I'm not sad to have to re-record this. And as well as kind of being able to go through and edit that last episode when we've really come out of that with, with a new approach to life. on our podcast. So things will be a little more organized, a little more structured. We're gonna like go back to writing notes for the episodes because our best episodes were the ones that we were like actually really preparing for. So you can look forward to it's a new and improved queer chatter. Happy Pride, bitches. Happy fucking Pride.
So I guess now, why don't we get into it? Yeah. Let's get into it, yeah.
A spindle splintered. is, as we've already briefly gone over, a queerified, modernized, into-the-spider-verse type retelling of Sleeping Beauty. Zinnia Gray is our main character. She is a 21-year-old woman who has suffered from a terminal illness caused by environmental teratogens called General Roseville Malady. It's a fictitious illness in this universe. Yeah. And the story follows Zinnia. It sets the tone where she's obsessed with Sleeping Beauty specifically. It guides her to study fairy tales in university. The story opens on her 21st birthday for all intents and purposes, where she is then zip-zap-zopped into Sleeping Beauty world. And from there, she's kind of like planning out how to perhaps save herself and said discovered Sleeping Beauty from the fate of death slash sleeping for 100 years. They go to Zelandine, the OG Sleeping Beauty in fairy tales before fairy tales. Zelandine is a medieval story. Zelandine turns out to be a good guy who's trying to protect princesses from their fates by hopefully moving them on into a better time. and from there Zinnia realizes she has to figure out a different way to save herself and Primrose, and thus figures out how to jerry-rig the multiverse thing, brings in a bunch of other sleeping beauties and her best friend. They kick some ass, they save the day. Badabing, badaboom. We wanted to briefly discuss like... fairy tale genre characteristics and queer theory in literature kind of just pave a clean road from which we can begin to discuss this book, which is a queer retelling of a very well-known fairy tale.
So queer theory is a lens through which to view the world. It's a lens that you can apply to basically anything. You can use queer theory to analyze a film. You can use queer theory to analyze a story. I use queer theory in the way that I conceptualize my clients and approach mental health and human development. So it's something that is very broad that can be applied to anything. So for our purposes today, we're really looking at how, like the core tenants of queer theory. And so in the words of my professor, because I think he put this really well, Queer theory is essentially interrogating the structures that created queer oppression. And this is really what queer literary analysis is doing and queer stories within queer theory are doing, right? So this is not only a queer story, but this is also a lens through which we're going to read this queer story. But it's sort of the core of it is this interrogation of like, how did we get where we are today? One of the big parts of it is how we look at established binaries that we take for granted. And so there is a tendency in western society to view things as like one or the other. So you have like male and female, you have straight gay, and bisexual people, pansexual people, non-binary people face added layers of discrimination compared to gay, lesbian, trans man, trans woman. Because in our world of binary, even in a queer context, like when we're so hung up on binary on figuring out one versus the other, like things are black and white, how do you fit in someone who's bi or how do you fit in someone who's non-binary? So that's a big part of it. And then the last part of this, that sort of blends into literary research, like more like human research, development research and stuff is this concept that identity is a cultural construct. And so queer theory is looking at what it is to be a man, what it is to be a woman, what it is to be heterosexual. These are socially constructed. And when we talk about gender and sexuality in a lot of ways, these are socially constructed, right? What it is to be a man and a woman is very different in the US than it is in other places. And even within the US. there's a lot of different meanings and cultural contexts to how people perform gender. At the same time, that's not to say that you're performing your gender, which means that you're not actually trans or whatever. It's just saying that the meaning that we place on these identities is very socially and culturally contextualized. Yeah, so. And kind of from all of this and something I've been bringing into my life is this concept of queering, right? And so there's a book called Queering Your Therapy Practice by Julie Tilson, and she describes queering as when we question and disrupt taken for granted practices and we imagine new possibilities. We break rules in order to liberate people who have been held hostage by what the rules require or prevent. And I think that's a really important lens, especially when considering the why of like the larger question of why, why is this the queer retelling instead of just like a feminist retelling, right? Is when we queer things, we are liberating. That's sort of like the overview of queer theory. There's a lot more that you can find out about for yourself, but that's sort of like queer theory in a nutshell.
So now that you understand Queer Theory, let us dive into the other half of the story, so to speak, which is the fairy tale part of it. Given that it's based on Sleeping Beauty for all intents and purposes, it carries a lot of that fairy tale weight on its back, and there are a lot of intentional choices that Alex E. Harrow makes in writing and organizing her characters and the stories in which they occur. In order to kind of reflect the original subject matter. And there are some very specific genre characteristics that come with a fairy tale as a fairly specific genre in and of itself and something that's so old and practiced developed through hundreds if not thousands of years of oral retellings of stories. But across the board, some of the most important pieces are how the characters are written, what roles they fulfill, how the setting works, and how the internal logic works. Characters are flat. They are more symbols than humans. You're not really supposed to think about them outside of the context of the story because they don't exist for that purpose. The setting is abstract. It's not in any specific setting, any specific time period, it all kind of exists within its own abstract, mysterious locale. Similar to the kind of abstract, almost nonsensical setting and time period of fairy tales, the logic exists in a very nonsensical and intuitive way. It relies on its own very internal structures. you're not really supposed to question or think about them, you're just following the linear story. If you start to pick them apart and say, well, why does this happen? Why does a prince walk into a tower, see a sleeping princess, and say, Imma kiss that? Don't think about it. Do normal people do that? No, but that's not the point. And then to kind of tie this all together, you have these character tropes that... almost every fairy tale character can fit into one of them. They're called the dramatis personae. Fancy. I know I got some fancy words. But in normal person layman's terms, they're just character tropes. So there's the villain who is basically the person who opposes the protagonist and eggs the story on, so to speak. They're not necessarily evil, they're just oppositional. You have the donor, also known as the provider. These are the people who prepare the heroes and often give gifts or special knowledge and wisdom. You've got the helper, which is the support system around the hero. That's the prince's horse or magical sword or what have you. The princess, which is pretty self-explanatory, your damsel in distress. You've got the dispatcher, who is the person who sends said hero on their mission, the hero himself or herself, so mostly himself, who is the person rescuing the princess, saving the day, making the things happen, making decisions, and the false hero, which is a person who attempts to go on the quest and fails. They often fall in alignment with the villain because their values are obscured or… not desirable or they're just – they show weakness or what have you. But these character tropes pop up in all fairy tales because their fairy tales are all stories about what it is to be human, and they're very simple. They follow simple structures, so you have individual characters who are representations of ideals fulfilling specific roles, which is what these tropes are. Then also just a very cool thing about fairy tales is that there have been systems to organize them and categorize them. The ATU structure is probably the most famous and well-known that categorizes fairy tales via numbers. It's kind of akin to the Dewey Decimal System. Sleeping Beauty is a 410 story, which is basically a princess who falls asleep. I love that. I love learning new things. That's the fairy tale genre, and there's a lot to pick apart there with this story. And especially once we compare it and kind of blend it with queer theory looking at this story, there's a lot to think about with how characters fall into different tropes, how this logic and the flatness of the characters kind of are changed and muddled in this story as an attempt to... queer and rework and modernize Sleeping Beauty. So I think there's kind of a lot to chew on there.
Yeah. I feel like this is gonna be... These are lenses through which we are examining this story.
Yes. This is the pavement.
Yes. It's worth noting that there is something called Critical Disability Theory, which is basically another way of examining stories. We are going to discuss disability today, but since neither one of us really has a lot of first-hand experience with the disability she has in the story, we are more in the business of posing questions today than we are really attempting to answer anything and dissect it. It's something we're interested in becoming more familiar with. and are always open to hearing other people. That's one reason we hope to get some more listeners is just to have people who maybe have more direct experience or more knowledge on this who can add to the conversation.
Yeah, to create a discussion. In trying to figure out what is the purpose of recreating the story, we have to think about who the characters the story circles around are. And I think the four most important, probably, are Zinnia, who's our main character, Primrose, who's our princess, Charm, who is our prince charming, and then Zelandine, who's the evil fairy, and meeting her is a big turning point in the story, and she's where the wool is kind of taken both off of the characters and the reader's eyes. and the context of the world and the why of what is happening is more clearly understood and seen.
Yeah. It makes me want to revisit those character tropes you were talking about and assigning those.
Yeah, so I think a good way to approach this is who are the fairy tale characters, who are the modern characters, and what happens at the turning point? because I think when they meet Zelandine, the character roles shift very dramatically. So-
Zinnia is the princess. She is born with a terminal illness. Anyone who is born with generalized Roseville malady dies at the age of 21. That's it. You have a finite life sentence. They've not been able to find any cure, so her whole life is waiting until she turns 21, essentially touches her finger upon the spindle. I hear yeah, proverbially touch his finger on the spindle and dies. Charm is her hero. Charm is going to school, taking like shitty jobs with Pfizer, with Pfizer, right, to try to research on the cutting edge of biochemistry and biotech and shit like that. Exactly.
And. like Zinnia is very closed off and closeted. She's up in her tower. She doesn't really talk to anybody. She doesn't have any friends other than Charm. Her parents are struggling with the fact that their child is destined to die, and that causes their relationship to be weird and strained in a lot of ways.
Right, which is similar to the stories, right? Where you have these parents who are so desperate to protect the Sleeping Beauty figure. from death or from eternal sleep.
They burn every spindle in the kingdom.
And she doesn't have a quality of life, right? So that's something a major theme that the story is exploring is the dangers of that isolation.
And then we have Primrose and Zelandine, who are our fairy tale characters. Primrose, when we first meet her, is a pretty straightforward Princess. She's destined to die. She's terrified of going to sleep because she knows she'll wake up and be sleepwalking to the spinning wheel to prick her finger and die or fall asleep. Zelandine is an evil fairy who cursed Primrose to her fate of sleeping for 100 years. She's the person who opposes, so to speak. the progression of the princess and the desire of her father's goal for her to be married and so on and so forth and to live her life as the perfect little princess. That's pretty straightforward. It's pretty cut and dry. We've got the princess and the villain. There are other characters in the story that fulfill other roles, but I think for the purposes of this discussion, those four are the most important. Then I think something really interesting happens when Zinnia and Primrose go on their adventure to meet the evil fairy to try and undo the curse. What Zinnia hopes to happen is cure her as well so she can continue to live because she sees them parallels as curses. I think the reader's understanding and the character's understanding of the roles they play. does almost a full 180. The most important one, I think, is that the evil fairy, Zelandine, goes from being a villain who cursed the princess to being the donor, the person who bestows a gift upon the hero. That gift being – or in this case, bestowing a gift upon the princess – but that gift being… escape from what is condemned to be an unhappy marriage and an unhappy life in the hopes that in a hundred years when Primrose wakes up, the world will be a better place for her as a queer person.
Yeah, so Primrose is a lesbian. Zeladine has the ability to see into the future. She saw that Primrose would marry this man and be unhappy because she was forced into this. into being with a man. And that is the gift. And I think it's also interesting, the donor typically bestows the hero with a gift. And I think that is also an intentional shift here, right? Is that charm is the hero in a lot of ways, but also Primrose and- And the other Sleeping Beauty's who come in through the multiverse connection. Yeah, and Zinnia are all heroes in their own ways. So it's also the story is looking at reclaiming agency in the face of a fate that is still out of your hands. Yeah. Right? Like Zinnia or Primrose learns from this interaction. There's nothing that she can do to change the gift rate of 100 year sleep. She just has to do it and there's nothing that she can do to remove the spell. Yeah. And so she is a hero and that the gift is not just the 100 year sleep but also the gift of agency to say, I'm choosing to go into this of my own volition, rather than like running into this because I have no other choice. Yeah.
Um, this is also, I think, where Zinnia's character changes from being the princess to, I would say, a dispatcher or a hero. She is on one hand a hero because she's she's the one guiding all of these movements. She's out here making moves. Yeah, she's making the decisions out here. But she's also the dispatcher. She's the one who brings the other princesses into the story and brings charm, who is kind of our true hero, into the story. She sends, she goes out and connects with these other sleeping beauties in the multiverse and to charm and brings them in order to save Primrose, while Zinnia herself is kind of on the verge of death. Like, her body is starting to shut down. She, as an individual, cannot do anything, so she brings the troops in.
No, yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. Yes, in a lot of ways, she is a hero, but yeah, very much so, is facilitating the rescue of Primrose.
That shift happens really suddenly, and I think that's one of the really cool important parts about how this is written. And also, if you kind of start to bleed that in with queer theory and challenging these hierarchies and set structures, Alex E. Harrow takes the story and these characters that are set in very flat, unmoving roles, changes one thing, and flips all of them on their head. Right. She turns the fairy. into a gift giver as opposed to an evil being and gives agency back to all of these characters.
Yeah, and I don't know, so I guess this is part of our discussion last time. Caitlin doesn't remember any of it because Caitlin didn't re-listen to the episode two different times while editing. But figuring out what parts of the story for me are queer. versus which parts of them are feminist. And there's obviously overlap, those aren't two mutually exclusive things. But I feel like restructuring their roles to me feels like a very feminist retelling. And I don't know that in and of itself is what makes this a queer story. Yeah, I agree. This has queer characters in it. Explicitly written queer characters. Yes, and at a baseline that is very important and that's doing something. Yeah. But when you're looking at like what in here is queered? Right? What is, and that's part of where this queer theory analysis comes into this is it's not just like, oh, this has, the story has queer characters as written by a queer author that makes it queer. It's this additional lens of what is the story queering? What is the story doing? How does the story exist in conversation with the oppressive systems in which it is written and in which it exists.
Yeah. And I think the best way to really tackle that is to blend that with the fairy tale genre, which is the oppressive system is the strict roles that these characters have to play. And the queering is Alex taking that and saying, that is not the truth. And pushing the characters to leave their flatness and their role... prison, I guess, behind, and to challenge that and take on their own destiny.
Well, so, okay, so my reaction to- it's a good thing I noticed that she hit the pause button on recording.
That is a good thing. What do you think? that I have some notes to contribute. We're trying to work.
So my response to what you just said several minutes ago, about 15 minutes ago, is I do think that it is queer, right, to challenge existing structures. I also feel like. that is something that is done in modern retellings, modern feminist retellings of fairy tales. Absolutely. I think that's why it is a queer thing and it doesn't feel inherently queer. So I don't know, and I don't mean to say that. I don't wanna take away from the power of this as a queer story. And I also, I think I'm just, in structurally, that feels a little more feminist than it does queer, if that makes sense. So then that makes me, okay, that makes me wonder. Take a story like Good Omens. Yes. Or Our Flag Means Death. What makes those queer? Versus like, I think maybe that's where we can go from here, because Our Flag Means Death is queer in that if you, they are, it's not just like changing roles, right? It's... the way that love is expressed, the way that characters... I don't know, do you know what I'm saying?
I do. What it kind of feels like to me is that our flag means death is told from an undeniably queer perspective. You are following Steed, for all intents and purposes, and his Queerness is what defines his worldview. When you are following Zinnia, it is not her queerness that defines her worldview, it is a facet of her personality and her identity. But it's not, I guess, something that is discussed. It doesn't really inform the way she interacts with the world. She's like, wow, Primrose is really beautiful. Okay, next.
I don't think it's just a matter of like, I don't think it's Steed's perspective. And that's why I also like bring in Good Omens, because that is like a very queer story. So like what from Good Omens is like queer to you?
That's the interesting thing about Good Omens is I think it is a queer story in that the characters are queer, at least in the show, are like pretty much expressly queer. But I don't know. Maybe it's the fact that the primary characters in question are the ones in love. But I don't know about that either. Hmm.
I also think it's interesting that the two examples I went to are of two men. And I feel like it is very easy to queer male expressions of love. not male expressions, but the expression of love between men, particularly cis men. Yeah, I think the thing with that is like if you feminize them a little bit, then they're gay. Right, men express feeling. It's queer, right? Yeah. And that's like a reduction, right? But I'm thinking like, what is a queer story featuring lesbians? Yeah. Right?
Have I even read any very pointedly queer stories about lesbians that were intentionally queer?
And we're the focus of the story. And from that perspective, it's almost like, I feel like lesbian stories, or we should just say sapphic love in general, is at a disadvantage maybe in queering itself.
And I also think it's just a far less common thing when it's not being like objectivized. Objective. Objectified. That's the one. We got there.
And that's something we've been talking about in one of my classes is like, we've come a long way, right? And our flag means death. One of the main, like the main love interests is a man of color, right? And it's also like, he's with another white man, right? And it's also two men and two cis men. So I think culturally, yeah. What is, like, the unique queer lens of lesbians compared to – because again, a lot of our media and the media – I don't think we've reviewed anything that was –
Yeah. The closest we get is Carmilla, and that in its original setting was supposed to be more of a warning around womanly love than –
Right. It's not a story about lesbians, right? I mean, it is and it isn't. Yeah. I don't know.
That's one of those things that is it a failing of the concept of queering and queer theory? Of our application of that. Of our application of it that we are struggling to kind of parse this out from a feminist lens, or is it a very distinct lack of positive specifically queer, sapphic media.
So we just took a 10 minute break. We ate some candy, Sour Punch straws, Airheads Extremes, please sponsor us. Yes, they're our favorites. And collected our thoughts, because this has gone in a completely unexpected direction for us. So we want to differentiate, I think, between This is a queer story with queer characters. That is, it's not, is this a queer story? Is it not a queer story? It's not up for debate, yeah. Right, it is a queer story. I think what we're wondering is what are the possibilities for a queer story? And one of the things that we keep coming back to is this notion that... Like, what is the purpose of these characters being queer? Why? Well, and something I want to be careful of, right? Because I'm like, oh, well, struggle isn't a part of the queer narrative outside of Primrose. And I'm like, why does that have to be a part of it? Right. We should be able to have queer stories, especially from queer authors that don't focus on the struggle of being queer. Yeah. And discrimination and discrimination. We have enough of that. Exactly. So it's not. And the purpose of these characters being queer is just that they're queer. Right. I also don't think that there needs to be an express purpose. Right. I agree. I think it's more so for me, there are structural parts of this story that I feel like could be further queered.
one of the things that has struck me as weird from the first time I read it is Zelandine's reason for putting Primrose to sleep, like her reason for the curse, and also the timeline of it. Putting Primrose to sleep for a hundred years because she is a lesbian in the hopes that she will have some independence and the world will change, it just feels pointless to me. Like, in a hundred years Primrose is gonna be a spinster, not an accepted lesbian. So it just feels like I think it might have been more interesting if Zelandine was going to put Primrose to sleep until she could fulfill her purpose. rather than putting her to sleep for an arbitrary time. And I think that would also be an interesting riff on the original fairy tale. And a more interesting take on Zelandine's character, Zelandine is so desperate to rescue these princesses that she's just putting them to sleep indefinitely. There is no end to that timeline until they are actually safe.
That makes me wonder, though. And I don't know, maybe, I don't know. Who knows if she actually intended any of this shit, right? That's, who fucking cares? That's the fun part of literary analysis is none of it matters and we're just here having a good time. Right. But so from that perspective, it makes me wonder, is Zelandine, it's not stated whether she like what her sexual orientation is, right? And I don't think that matters. I just farted. Yeah. Which is why I was laughing. Because that's the thing. The resolution to this story wasn't, she goes to sleep for 100 years, she wakes up and things are magically better. If she had gone to sleep and woken up and things were better, I feel like that's missing out on a large part of queer experience, which is like, I can't just go to sleep and wake up and things are better. The resolution to this story is that they literally break the multiverse.
Yeah. And Primrose just leaves. She leaves for a better world instead of waiting for one.
And I think it also parallels Zinnia's life, where Zellandine is occupying the same role as the parents in all of these stories and in Zinnia's world, where she's saying, here's my gift to you, I'm solving your problems in the best way that I can, which is how a lot of queer history has been. I have been in situations with certain people. where people like shit talk me for using they them pronouns and what are trans people? What are non-binary people? Bisexuals are just confused. And I feel like there is this attitude that queer people are the ones creating problems. If I could just stop asking people to extend themselves to learn how to use a new name and new pronouns for me, my life would be easier. I'm the reason that I'm upset about this because I'm too sensitive and I'm expecting too much from other people and I need to be more understanding. And so I feel like as a society, at least in like a Western context and particularly a US context, there is this notion that queer people and trans people just need to go to sleep and things will be better. Yeah. Like, Zelandine's intervention is to say your queerness is the problem. if you can just bottle that up until society magically decides to change itself. And it's also, if Zellandine's solution is to just put queer people to sleep until things get better, things are never going to get better because you're not going to have queer people who are able to advocate and normalize.
And I think that's an interesting... Right? I'm like, is this actually so queer? The most meta queer story I've ever read in my life? And also, okay, okay. think about it. What's the word for a feminist who isn't intersectional? Terf? A little less aggressive than that, maybe. I don't get terf vibes from Zelandine, but you know. Racist? Well, let's just say, Zelandine, like, if you're really getting into the weeds now, Zelandine is like a white feminist. Yes. She comes in here, she's like, I was raped. that was the worst thing that can happen to a person in a lot of ways. I experienced that. I will never let anything like that happen again to another person. that I can help. that I can help. yes. And that is so powerful and so important, but her scope is limited. And her goal is to protect and prevent as opposed to empower and change. And I think that's a really interesting, like, feminism is so important. It is not the answer for saving queer people. Right. Yeah. One person's suffering cannot be transcribed onto another person to save them.
Right. Yeah. And like, thinking about she is a magic fairy witch and we don't know... the full extent of her powers, right? She seems pretty fucking powerful. And her solution to this is not to blip you into a better world, but to put you to sleep. Or even to, I don't know, like fucking manipulate fucking kings and queens, right? And like she's using her power to save the individual. And by save, like you said, she's trying to prevent and protect. And it's a valuable thing, right? It's important that she's protecting these people, right? It's not to say that that's wrong. We should obviously be protecting people from sexual assault. And she is unable to see a larger picture. Yeah. Yeah, and I really do think that's a really good analogy for white feminism. It's a limited ability to see- The wider world. Yeah. Pfft.
Absolutely galaxy-braining this shit.
That's crazy. Yes. Alex E. Harrow, please come on our podcast. This is fucking intense.
Yeah. And also, as an aside, this is one of my favorite things about literary analysis, because regardless of whether or not Alex E. Harrow had this master plan and thought all this shit out and left these, like, tiny little tales for us to follow… that shit exists in our world, it exists in her experience of the world, therefore it translates into her writing whether or not she wants it to, and we can read into that. Zelandine being the way she is, her making that choice is intentional in more ways than one.
Right. And like you're saying, regardless of her intentions, it's like the fact that the resolution to this story isn't that Primrose accepts her fate, is very much queer in and of itself.
Yeah, because that's the thing. That's the ending. So that turning point that we talked about earlier, that is like where Primrose and Zinnia become heroes in their own story. That is fulfilled, not by them making the choice to walk into their destiny without being afraid. That is fulfilled when they say, that's not my destiny. Yes. And that's just, I think that's why this book is so cool and also it feels so muddy, is because there's just a lot of nuance to be had there. The ending isn't what the story sets up. The ending is a breaking of all of this world and all of these fairy tale tropes and all of these things. Charm saves the day, she saves the princess. However, what really saves the princess is getting the fuck out of there. Yep.
And Primrose chooses to leave, right? And that's where I think there's a difference between, like, a straight person saying just Leave the country if you don't like it the way it is. Mm-hmm. Move to Canada. Mm-hmm. Okay, there's a lot of reasons why a lot of queer people can't move to Canada. First of all. Mm-hmm. Second of all, it's a straight person being like, your queerness is the problem. If you just go away for a little bit, things will get better. Mm-hmm. Just suck it up. Yeah. Versus a queer person who says, this is not safe for me, I'm choosing to leave for my own well-being.
Yes. You know. Which is like, would I like to do that? Yes. Do I get the option? No. I don't live in a fairy tale multiverse. However, it feels good to have it happen to other characters. Yes, it does. It captures that not every story is a tragic one. You have agency, even if the world sucks. The world we live in is not perfect. Zinnia is – or not Zinnia – Primrose is not moving into a perfect world where everything will be hunky dory.
I think one thing – transitioning if you're ready to transition. to the disability conversation. Not that these are separate conversations, but Zinnia, I don't know how, I don't know if this is actually a good transition. But like, I just one thing, I don't know, you had said something earlier that we were talking about acceptance of their fate. And it just really made me think that Zinnia had spent her entire life sort of resigned But resignation and acceptance are two different things. Exactly. Resignation is like a passive, like, well, this is the way things are. Whereas acceptance is like an active state of being. I might not be okay with it. That doesn't mean it's okay, but I accept that this is the reality. Yeah.
And in a lot of youth, like when I read this story, I see Zinnia as kind of being in a state of stasis until she enters the world of fairy tale. Like, she pursues things that make her happy, but she also feels very stuck. She doesn't interact with other people who have generalized Roseville malady. She kind of, Up until she's 16 or 17, she stays closeted in her home. She doesn't even fight really against her parents desperately trying to protect her. It felt like in the face of finally really deeply accepting her mortality. she uses her last moments to save people, which she had fought against. She didn't go to rallies, she didn't go to protests, she didn't go to meetups, she didn't do any of the things that you're supposed to do in the real world, in her world. But when it clicks for her, when she realizes that there is nothing that can save her, she kicks it into high gear. brings it all around. That is when she gets back to her world and finds out that basically the clock on her illness has been reset and she doesn't know how much time she has, but she knows she has time. She decides that she's gonna keep doing what she's been doing. She's gonna fucking save people or keep doing what she had just discovered. She's… going to do everything in her power to save other princesses. Throughout the multiverse. Throughout the multiverse. She's in the Spider-verse. Yes. Which I think is also interesting and like, I mean, I don't really know how to chew on this or how to approach this, but she chooses to travel the multiverse and save princesses rather than sticking around in her world and trying to… fight against generalized Roseville malady. Not fight against, but fight against the corporation. Fight against the corporation and kind of try to find some treatment, some cure, especially because she has more time, whatever. And I think that's also very – it's just interesting that she had success in saving these princesses. There has been no success. There has been no retribution. Yeah. against these corporations and for General Roseville malady. So instead of sticking in her world and trying to do this thing that feels pointless to her, because nothing has happened and she believes nothing will happen, she goes and does something that she has found success in, and she will save as many people as she can doing that thing.
And I think that's something that I'm interested in from a disability rhetoric or disability analysis perspective is the resolution to the happy end to this story is she, the clock has reset and she says, I have learned to love myself and others and I will now take every moment to spend with those who love me and fully appreciate what I have. And instead it's that like, she's like, all right, I got shit to do, bye. Right, and she has closure, right? She talks, closure as much as closure can be obtained, right? Can tell I'm a therapist. But like she talks with her parents, especially her dad and she's like look, I love you. I'm not leaving because I'm mad at you It's just something I like I want to live my life, right? And so And again, I don't have any definitive answer, but I don't know. I think it's interesting that the ending is not her Staying it's not that she learned to appreciate right? It's that she Learned what truly makes life worth living for her.
Yeah I think in a similar vein, I expected it in some ways to end with her fighting the good fight. Same. And taking these evil corporations to task, motherfucker! And getting her DNA coded and figuring out what's going on and finding a cure, finding a way to prevent it. And instead she's like, uh-uh, I'm gone, y'all. Yeah. Have fun. I'll see you when I see you.
And I think that's an interesting thing to think about. In Zinnia's version of the Sleeping Beauty tale, there is no nuance to the villain. The villain is just the villain. It is a very flat character. I think that's interesting from a structural perspective because in the fairy tale version is where you really see the multi-dimensional character tropes, but in the real life, like the real world, things are pretty simple. the villain is the corporation and also the system which failed to hold it accountable. Yeah. Like, there are more clear flat structures. And I also think that is kind of true in a sense that when you live in a society that has so many, like, what are you supposed to do?
Yeah. Like, it's hard to feel empowered. And like what I... do or say counts. Like that's one of the biggest things with like voting and getting people to vote is you have to convince people that their vote matters, but it doesn't fucking feel like it.
Right. And one of the things I'm pretty sure at one point she says like, sure, the corporation faced, it got some fines. Yeah, like what's $20,000 in the face of a fucking Fortune 500 company? Yeah. And so that's the thing. Even the structures that we have in place are nothing. Right? And it's like, I don't know, almost like our systems is like is the false hero. Yeah. In a sense. And like, I think it shifts the perspective from disabled people need to be like constantly fighting the good fight and advocating for themselves and loving their family and appreciating. Like, I think it's sad. And also, I think she sort of part of that acceptance for her was, I'm not going to change things probably. And by the way, even if I can, let's say I have another 21 years of life, I don't owe that to anyone else. It is not her job as someone with a terminal illness caused by a corporation to fix the system. She should be allowed to live her life. So in her choosing to leave this world, she is. rejecting the notion that in order for her existence to be worth anything, she has to be fighting for something, for something greater than herself. And in the end, she chooses herself. And I think that's really meaningful.
Yeah. And I also think it's really powerful for Zinnia that in the face of what feels like an insurmountable evil and barrier, she says, I, as an individual, might not be able to stop that and save myself and save the people I love from that. but I have found a way to save people, even if it's a handful of people, and I'm going to do it. My calling might be to save people, but it's not to what seems to her, what she perceives as wasting her life doing something pointless.
One thing that I do think is worth talking about, which you brought up last time, was that she has generalized Roseville malady, which is a made-up illness. And last time we were sort of talking about like, what does it mean that she chose like a fake illness? And in thinking about genre tropes, I think it's like the purpose of the fairy tales to be ambiguous.
Exactly, yeah. Yeah, and that's also one of the things that like, when we came to this in our last time talking about it, I do remember this, is like, we opened it up. We were like, I don't... This is a thing and I there is a discussion to be had there But I haven't the foggiest idea of how to approach it. I don't know if it's good that it's a fictitious illness I don't know if it's neutral. I don't know if it's a bad thing. Would it be more empowering if it were a real illness or Is the fact that it's supposed to be an ambiguous and abstract set aspect of a fairy tale that like That's a good enough reason or does it not need to have a reason like I just Yeah. Also, I just had a funny little brain thing, which like, generalized Roseville melody, the Grimm's version of Sleeping Beauty's name is Briar Rose. Just, you know, flowers and stuff.
Oh my god, and generalized Roseville melody is Grimm. Oh my fucking god. She's going to listen to this episode, she's not, but she's going to listen to this, like, obviously. And or she's going to be like, I don't know what love. Or should be like, you're fucking geniuses. Be my best friends. Yes. Please. Thank you. Part of what spoke to me a lot in Zinnia's character is, and this is something we've talked about at length in the old version of this episode that is lost to time in memoriam, is Zinnia spends a lot of the book trying to figure out if Primrose is gay or not. Mm-hmm. I think there is a tendency to try to pinpoint and fit queer identities into boxes. And I think Zinnia is still very much in that mindset. Because there's also these characters are so young. Right, she's 21, right? And I know when I was that age, that was very important to me. And also, she's the kind of gay that says I'm 75% straight. And I'm like, if you have to say that. So she's clearly- She gives chaotic bi energy. Yeah, 1000% like chaotic bisexual energy all the way. Her first kiss was with her best friend and then she said, nope, I'm a dying girl, I mustn't love anybody. No, I'm clearly heterosexual and I don't actually have feelings for you. Yeah, and I said- And that is very queer. That's queer as fuck. Yes. Like, and that's my experience growing up. I had so many friends when we were like, you know, like 12 and 13 before we even really understood what that meant. who'd be like, hey, I think I have a crush on you. And I'd be like, oh, I don't reciprocate those feelings because I'm dead inside. But uh. Do you want a kiss about it? No, but I was just gonna say, yeah, that's no problem. But like, you know, and it wasn't, it wasn't a thing. Like none of us knew that was a queer part of our growing up experience. But like, that is so much of being queer is. It's like stumbling on shit. Stumbling on to shit, yeah. And being like, oh, I have a crush on my friend and that's okay. We're just going to kiss about it and then move on. And I look forward to the future versions of this story because that wasn't resolved in this one, which makes sense. I don't think it was meant to be resolved. A lot of this was her dealing with her illness. And so I'm very curious to see what the next couple books. So far there's only one more out. Yeah, but I think a third one is on the docket. And so I'm very much looking forward to seeing Zinnia's relationship. how her relationship with her queerness evolves. I think part of why it felt so important to her to like figure out Primrose was because she doesn't even know quite where she fits into everything. Yeah. So I would really recommend this book. It's a super quick read. Both of us read it in like one sitting.
It's cute, it's fun, it's funny, it's emotional. It's just, it's good. Do you have anything else to say? Um, I love a good wish fulfillment book, but that's all I got. I think that's it. Tune in. Tune in at some point. Yeah, it'll be on our Twitter probably.
Oh yeah, follow us on Twitter at QueerChatterPod. Join the discussion. Tell us your opinion. Start the discussion. Exactly. Who knows, maybe three years from now there will be a discussion you can join. That's wish fulfillment right there. We would love to hear your thoughts. And yeah, help spread the word. Like and share us on Twitter. Rate our podcast 5 stars. I don't care if you don't like it. It is transphobic of you to give us less than 5 stars. Point blank. Don't care about your opinion. I do care about your opinion.
I want you to rate it honestly and I want your honest rating to be 5 stars. So... that's it! Um... Until next time... Let's be kind to each other. That's gay. I know. Bye!
You cannot burp into the microphone while I'm in the middle of a sentence. I'm sorry, it's just the devil took control of me and I couldn't help it.
