WEBVTT
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I'm Fredrik Gertten and I'm the filmmaker.
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And I'm Leilani Farha, and I'm the advocate.
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Hello, advocates.
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This is Pushback Talk.
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And this is our, you know, the way of us keeping alive, you know, putting words to each other, and we call it word food.
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So let's play with words, Leilani.
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It's your time.
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Fredrik, I'm gonna give you a word.
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Are you ready?
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It's actually two words often said together, and I'm gonna say them together.
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Upside down.
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Upside down.
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That's like disco, isn't it?
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Exactly.
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That's a classical disco song.
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Yeah, now we we should kind of put it on.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, maybe, maybe Sebastian can, our sound technician, can pump in some upside down.
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Who is it?
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Is it Diana Ross?
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No, it's uh oh shit.
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No, I.
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You talk I'll look.
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You look, yeah.
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Upside down.
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I mean, that that's the feeling that we have about what's happening on the planet right now, that everything is upside down.
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It's it's organized in a way that we don't want it to be.
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Everything that we value is under attack, and everything that they value is like lifted up, which is then greed and violence and pure brutal power, because that's what they say.
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If you have power, you that's the that's the law of the planet that the most powerful win.
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And it's not about uh human rights law or international law or you know the this kind of global community built up around the UN declarations and so on.
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So it's it is upside down.
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And how do we turn it around?
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And of course, this is something we can all talk about, but uh and I'm still waiting for, let's say, a European politician or a leader from, you know, could be Canada, or could be uh, you know, to take the lead.
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But people are hesitant because Trump is so, you know, we have we need to please him at least with words.
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And then of course I'm certain that all these leaders, everybody sits and talks between each other, say, okay, how are we going to handle this guy who's turning everything upside down?
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But they they still haven't found a way to communicate it.
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And when they don't, he's winning.
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Yeah.
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I think that's that's the problem because we we need to speak out in one voice, a lot of nations, a lot of people, and that could be uh, you know, left and right, whatever.
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It doesn't really matter because now when he's stomping around, even right-wing Europeans are feeling okay, this is too much, you know.
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You know, you can imagine being a very right-wing Dane right now when they are asking for Greenland.
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Right.
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I heard a Danish conservative politician on TV the other day said, if he takes Greenland, we are at war.
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That's fierce language, you know.
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But still, I'm waiting for that leadership to happen.
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I think we've seen a little bit of it of right side up talk from Ma'am Danny in New York, who is speaking plainly, not just about the needs of New Yorkers, although he's so very good at that.
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And he introduced yesterday, I think, uh, or recently, um, subsidized child care for workers in New York.
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He is addressing the unaffordability of housing.
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Um, he's uh trying to create a city that people can live in, not just a city where people want to live, which is amazing.
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And also supporting small-scale businesses, the mom and pop businesses.
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Yeah.
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Also really I mean, normally you don't hear the left talking about small business, but I think that's I think that's really cool.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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So he when I hear him, I feel like, okay, like, and I and as I said, not just about New York stuff.
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I mean, he weighed in on what's happening in Minneapolis around ice uh and just spoke truth and said, I don't need an investigation to know murder when I see it.
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Boom.
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Right.
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So it it's interesting, and it's interesting to see how Trump deals with Mam Danny.
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He hasn't written him off, he hasn't attacked him since the election.
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Uh quite the opposite.
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I mean, that meeting in the Oval Office, where I mean, it was like Trump was fawning over Mam Danny.
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I mean, it was quite strange.
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So I think, like you, I've been waiting.
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Like, where's the leadership?
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Especially from Europe.
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Like, where is the leadership?
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And I think they're all so timid.
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And I I actually think people should be willing to lose something.
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All of us should be willing to lose something, to do what's right, to say what's right, to embrace morals, to embrace human rights.
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I mean, we're not going to be in a better world.
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We'll never be in a better world if we just keep selling out morality.
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Yeah.
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I must say that I'm really impressed by the Mexican president.
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Scheinbaum.
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Scheinbaum.
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She keeps a very straight line all the time.
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And also I saw that now when Venezuela is cut off, Mexico sent oil to Cuba.
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You know?
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I didn't know that.
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You take it for what it is, but I mean they do it because they can, and they they don't want the US to decide everything.
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I think that's that's cool.
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And of course, the the Mexicans has a very deep reason for their anti-Americanism, because of course Mexico was basically a third of the country was stolen, yeah, you know, 150 years ago.
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And this is like in the deep memory of Mexico.
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I mean, I mean, Texas and so on, you know, Texas was Mexican territory that they invited immigrants so they could build the economy, and then these immigrants kind of ran away and became a part of the US, and then on and on, and then they after that they also took California and so on.
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Yeah, so it's it's um they they know the Mexicans know deeply what is happening now in Greenland, Venezuela, you name it.
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Um so and and I think it's cool.
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One other cool thing with Shane Bond, what is she said the other day that she should give more money to Mexican film, you know?
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Suddenly, you know, culture which is under attack in so many places, she's there.
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Excellent, excellent.
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And on the cultural front, I will say this about the word or words upside down.
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There is a very Palestinian dish called makluba, which it actually means upside down, as I understand it.
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And it's a dish that you make in a big pot, and you put vegetables or meats, if you eat meat, on the bottom, and then you put rice and more vegetables and more rice, and you cook it.
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And then when you serve it, you have to flip the pot over and you lift it up, and you should end up with a beautifully formed rice vegetable meat compilation.
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I that's what I see my Palestinians friends post on Instagram.
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Exactly.
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I happened to make that dish, makluba, uh, on October the 8th, 2023, just by chance.
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I had no idea October 7th was going to happen.
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I had long planned it.
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It was a special occasion, my mother's birthday and a long weekend, and I made this upside down dish.
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Little did I know that we were starting the beginning in a very upfront and center way of upside down world.
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A metaphor.
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Okay.
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Upside down.
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Discount.
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Do you want me to shoot you some words?
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And it is Diana Ross.
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Diana Ross.
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Good.
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It is Diana Ross.
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There we go.
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Upside down.
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Um a word.
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Soft power.
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Soft power.
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Oh.
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Is that a term?
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A term of art?
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Huh.
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I like that idea.
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Um I actually don't know what it means, but I assume it's a very important thing.
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But if you come yeah, compare it with uh the power of the gun, for example.
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Right.
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So, like you know, thousands of people protesting without violence on the street.
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Is that a soft power?
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Like what's happening in Iran that's been happening around the world about Palestine?
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Is that soft power?
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Or is it about leadership?
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Actually, there is a new book out called Soft Power.
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Okay.
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Uh it's probably also out in Canada and the US and the UK.
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It was actually out in also in Japan, but it's uh a Swedish writer called Martin Jellion.
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He was the correspondent in New York for many years, and now he lives in Paris because he couldn't stand living in the US anymore.
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But it's basically the power of culture.
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For example, the US have had a very strong soft power also, not only because of the guns and the military, also because of its culture.
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So even when you know, when they were bomb bombarding Vietnam or, you know, being brutal imperialists, people still love the US because of the resistance, you know, because of all the music, and that's kind of that was like the soft power of the US.
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And he walks through a lot of uh countries uh around how how the cultural is kind of also sending out the message.
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But what is happening now is that many nations, especially the US, is kicking down, you know, hunting down culture and taking over the institutions and so on.
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So actually attacking the soft power of them, their own nation, which is now happening that the US is losing a lot of its good reputation right now.
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And where do you see the most investments in culture right now?
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Saudi Arabia is building like hundreds of art institutions, you know.
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Really?
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Dubai, yes, museums, art museums, art festivals, you know, and Dubai and Qatar and all this, there is billions after billions into architecture, that the all the top architects are building stuff there.
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What they're doing, they're building a cultural label, but without including what is the heart of culture, which is also freedom of speech, you know.
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Let all the voices out, you know, the chaos of culture, the the right to dream, because culture is also the right to dream about the better world, you know, and that is of course then oppressed in in countries like uh Saudi and Qatar and Dubai.
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But but then we have European powers like France, for example, who still invest lots in culture.
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So it but the most positive stories of soft power in the recent years is South Korea.
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Absolutely.
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A lot of the most successful art coming out from Korea is also critical.
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You know, the film Parasite, it's very much about what we did in Korea, you know, it's about the horrible housing situation and an unfair society.
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But the state of South Korea is also uh supporting the distribution of this story out to the world, and that makes Korea now into a cultural giant in this time.
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Huge.
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I mean, and of course, Korean culture, it's critical, but also very joyful.
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The music, the K-pop, etc., that's all being exported, so many movies, comedies coming out of um South Korea as well.
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And then have a look a bit at the north of Korea, China, who are invested millions after millions after billions into this Silk Road project, cultural stories, and they are not successful.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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I'm I'm interested in this soft power.
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I as you know, Frederick, I'm writing a book and I'm nearing the final chapter.
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And so the book is, of course, about humanity and the relationship between humanity and home and the way in which humanity is weaponized by Wall Street and other actors and governments and banks and that ecosystem.
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Um, so the final chapter, that's all very heavy, very heavy stuff.
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So I need, you know, the final chapter to be, I want it to be full of joy and possibility, and people will want me to come up with solutions.
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And I'm not one for solutions.
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I I don't know that I want to have a, you know, here's the top 10 things we can do.
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Um, I might do that in a cheeky kind of way, but what I do think I'm interested in is the power of art and culture and and the need for artists to be front and center in the struggles.
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It's not the need, they are front and center in the struggles that we're engaged in right now.
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And in my experience, the people who are speaking most truth and most powerfully will put Mam Danny aside, although he has, you know, behind him an artist.
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Yeah, his partner is an artist.
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But putting him aside, the people speaking the most truth and being the most courageous are artists, writers, documentary filmmakers, um, sculptors, painters.
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I mean, the things I've seen emerge in the last two and a half years in particular is just amazing.
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Poets, I how could I forget poets?
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Um, so so I'm gonna read the book you've suggested, Soft Power, and see if there's something there.
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I think we should uh when we start to have guests again, I would like to invite the the writer.
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Absolutely.
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Soon, soon, I'm almost finished my book.
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We can have guests again.
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So a soft power by Martin Jelin, G-E-I-L-I-N.
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G-E-L I N.
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Yeah.
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We can Google it.
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You can soft power look it up.
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It's out in in uh, I think 30 countries and so on, so you should be able to find it.
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It's it's uh something we should keep talking about.
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That when we now invest so much in weapons, we need to talk about what we want to defend, you know.
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Otherwise, it's no point, you know.
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So, we what we want to defend is of course the culture, you know, and the people, and and then um that because that's the whole point of of uh of democracy.
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So don't divest culture, invest in culture, because that's also resistance.
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That's a nice place to end.
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It is soft power.
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So a soft um goodbye to you, Lilani.
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We'll talk soon again.
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We will.
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Thank you very much.
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Thanks, Frederick.
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Thanks, and to friends, if you want to support the podcast, send us some money on Patreon.
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It's not bad.
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Patreon.com pushback talks.
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See you.
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See you.com slash pushback talks.
00:16:35.919 --> 00:16:41.279
Follow us on social media at make underscore the shift and push underscore the film.
00:16:41.279 --> 00:16:49.279
Or check out our websites maketheshift.org, pushthefilm.com, or breaking socialfilm.com.
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I'm Fredrik Gertten and I'm the filmmaker.
00:00:05.679 --> 00:00:08.880
And I'm Leilani Farha, and I'm the advocate.
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Hello, advocates.
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This is Pushback Talk.
00:00:12.240 --> 00:00:22.879
And this is our, you know, the way of us keeping alive, you know, putting words to each other, and we call it word food.
00:00:22.879 --> 00:00:26.399
So let's play with words, Leilani.
00:00:26.399 --> 00:00:27.839
It's your time.
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Fredrik, I'm gonna give you a word.
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Are you ready?
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It's actually two words often said together, and I'm gonna say them together.
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Upside down.
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Upside down.
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That's like disco, isn't it?
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Exactly.
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That's a classical disco song.
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Yeah, now we we should kind of put it on.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, maybe, maybe Sebastian can, our sound technician, can pump in some upside down.
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Who is it?
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Is it Diana Ross?
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No, it's uh oh shit.
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No, I.
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You talk I'll look.
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You look, yeah.
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Upside down.
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I mean, that that's the feeling that we have about what's happening on the planet right now, that everything is upside down.
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It's it's organized in a way that we don't want it to be.
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Everything that we value is under attack, and everything that they value is like lifted up, which is then greed and violence and pure brutal power, because that's what they say.
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If you have power, you that's the that's the law of the planet that the most powerful win.
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And it's not about uh human rights law or international law or you know the this kind of global community built up around the UN declarations and so on.
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So it's it is upside down.
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And how do we turn it around?
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And of course, this is something we can all talk about, but uh and I'm still waiting for, let's say, a European politician or a leader from, you know, could be Canada, or could be uh, you know, to take the lead.
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But people are hesitant because Trump is so, you know, we have we need to please him at least with words.
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And then of course I'm certain that all these leaders, everybody sits and talks between each other, say, okay, how are we going to handle this guy who's turning everything upside down?
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But they they still haven't found a way to communicate it.
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And when they don't, he's winning.
00:02:47.520 --> 00:02:47.759
Yeah.
00:02:48.000 --> 00:03:01.759
I think that's that's the problem because we we need to speak out in one voice, a lot of nations, a lot of people, and that could be uh, you know, left and right, whatever.
00:03:01.759 --> 00:03:11.039
It doesn't really matter because now when he's stomping around, even right-wing Europeans are feeling okay, this is too much, you know.
00:03:11.039 --> 00:03:16.960
You know, you can imagine being a very right-wing Dane right now when they are asking for Greenland.
00:03:17.120 --> 00:03:17.439
Right.
00:03:17.680 --> 00:03:26.000
I heard a Danish conservative politician on TV the other day said, if he takes Greenland, we are at war.
00:03:26.000 --> 00:03:28.319
That's fierce language, you know.
00:03:28.319 --> 00:03:33.039
But still, I'm waiting for that leadership to happen.
00:03:33.520 --> 00:03:51.360
I think we've seen a little bit of it of right side up talk from Ma'am Danny in New York, who is speaking plainly, not just about the needs of New Yorkers, although he's so very good at that.
00:03:51.360 --> 00:03:59.919
And he introduced yesterday, I think, uh, or recently, um, subsidized child care for workers in New York.
00:03:59.919 --> 00:04:04.080
He is addressing the unaffordability of housing.
00:04:04.080 --> 00:04:12.879
Um, he's uh trying to create a city that people can live in, not just a city where people want to live, which is amazing.
00:04:12.960 --> 00:04:18.000
And also supporting small-scale businesses, the mom and pop businesses.
00:04:18.000 --> 00:04:18.399
Yeah.
00:04:18.399 --> 00:04:26.639
Also really I mean, normally you don't hear the left talking about small business, but I think that's I think that's really cool.
00:04:26.959 --> 00:04:27.199
Yeah.
00:04:27.199 --> 00:04:27.680
Yeah.
00:04:27.680 --> 00:04:34.160
So he when I hear him, I feel like, okay, like, and I and as I said, not just about New York stuff.
00:04:34.160 --> 00:04:45.920
I mean, he weighed in on what's happening in Minneapolis around ice uh and just spoke truth and said, I don't need an investigation to know murder when I see it.
00:04:45.920 --> 00:04:47.199
Boom.
00:04:47.199 --> 00:04:47.839
Right.
00:04:47.839 --> 00:04:53.439
So it it's interesting, and it's interesting to see how Trump deals with Mam Danny.
00:04:53.439 --> 00:04:59.839
He hasn't written him off, he hasn't attacked him since the election.
00:04:59.839 --> 00:05:01.439
Uh quite the opposite.
00:05:01.439 --> 00:05:09.279
I mean, that meeting in the Oval Office, where I mean, it was like Trump was fawning over Mam Danny.
00:05:09.279 --> 00:05:11.120
I mean, it was quite strange.
00:05:11.120 --> 00:05:13.839
So I think, like you, I've been waiting.
00:05:13.839 --> 00:05:15.120
Like, where's the leadership?
00:05:15.120 --> 00:05:16.160
Especially from Europe.
00:05:16.160 --> 00:05:18.480
Like, where is the leadership?
00:05:18.480 --> 00:05:21.360
And I think they're all so timid.
00:05:21.360 --> 00:05:26.720
And I I actually think people should be willing to lose something.
00:05:26.720 --> 00:05:34.959
All of us should be willing to lose something, to do what's right, to say what's right, to embrace morals, to embrace human rights.
00:05:34.959 --> 00:05:38.319
I mean, we're not going to be in a better world.
00:05:38.319 --> 00:05:43.360
We'll never be in a better world if we just keep selling out morality.
00:05:43.839 --> 00:05:44.160
Yeah.
00:05:44.160 --> 00:05:47.839
I must say that I'm really impressed by the Mexican president.
00:05:47.839 --> 00:05:49.600
Scheinbaum.
00:05:49.600 --> 00:05:51.120
Scheinbaum.
00:05:51.120 --> 00:05:53.279
She keeps a very straight line all the time.
00:05:53.279 --> 00:06:00.480
And also I saw that now when Venezuela is cut off, Mexico sent oil to Cuba.
00:06:00.480 --> 00:06:01.279
You know?
00:06:01.279 --> 00:06:03.040
I didn't know that.
00:06:03.040 --> 00:06:11.439
You take it for what it is, but I mean they do it because they can, and they they don't want the US to decide everything.
00:06:11.439 --> 00:06:13.040
I think that's that's cool.
00:06:13.040 --> 00:06:27.759
And of course, the the Mexicans has a very deep reason for their anti-Americanism, because of course Mexico was basically a third of the country was stolen, yeah, you know, 150 years ago.
00:06:27.759 --> 00:06:32.480
And this is like in the deep memory of Mexico.
00:06:32.480 --> 00:06:49.759
I mean, I mean, Texas and so on, you know, Texas was Mexican territory that they invited immigrants so they could build the economy, and then these immigrants kind of ran away and became a part of the US, and then on and on, and then they after that they also took California and so on.
00:06:49.759 --> 00:06:58.720
Yeah, so it's it's um they they know the Mexicans know deeply what is happening now in Greenland, Venezuela, you name it.
00:06:58.720 --> 00:07:01.439
Um so and and I think it's cool.
00:07:01.439 --> 00:07:10.240
One other cool thing with Shane Bond, what is she said the other day that she should give more money to Mexican film, you know?
00:07:10.240 --> 00:07:14.800
Suddenly, you know, culture which is under attack in so many places, she's there.
00:07:15.279 --> 00:07:16.800
Excellent, excellent.
00:07:16.800 --> 00:07:21.920
And on the cultural front, I will say this about the word or words upside down.
00:07:21.920 --> 00:07:31.839
There is a very Palestinian dish called makluba, which it actually means upside down, as I understand it.
00:07:31.839 --> 00:07:44.720
And it's a dish that you make in a big pot, and you put vegetables or meats, if you eat meat, on the bottom, and then you put rice and more vegetables and more rice, and you cook it.
00:07:44.720 --> 00:07:57.759
And then when you serve it, you have to flip the pot over and you lift it up, and you should end up with a beautifully formed rice vegetable meat compilation.
00:07:58.079 --> 00:08:01.839
I that's what I see my Palestinians friends post on Instagram.
00:08:01.839 --> 00:08:02.800
Exactly.
00:08:03.040 --> 00:08:11.439
I happened to make that dish, makluba, uh, on October the 8th, 2023, just by chance.
00:08:11.439 --> 00:08:14.639
I had no idea October 7th was going to happen.
00:08:14.639 --> 00:08:15.759
I had long planned it.
00:08:15.759 --> 00:08:22.959
It was a special occasion, my mother's birthday and a long weekend, and I made this upside down dish.
00:08:22.959 --> 00:08:31.040
Little did I know that we were starting the beginning in a very upfront and center way of upside down world.
00:08:31.040 --> 00:08:32.399
A metaphor.
00:08:32.399 --> 00:08:33.759
Okay.
00:08:34.159 --> 00:08:34.720
Upside down.
00:08:34.720 --> 00:08:35.919
Discount.
00:08:35.919 --> 00:08:37.759
Do you want me to shoot you some words?
00:08:38.240 --> 00:08:39.759
And it is Diana Ross.
00:08:40.240 --> 00:08:41.279
Diana Ross.
00:08:41.279 --> 00:08:41.600
Good.
00:08:41.840 --> 00:08:42.879
It is Diana Ross.
00:08:42.879 --> 00:08:43.279
There we go.
00:08:43.279 --> 00:08:44.320
Upside down.
00:08:44.320 --> 00:08:46.080
Um a word.
00:08:46.080 --> 00:08:48.799
Soft power.
00:08:48.799 --> 00:08:51.120
Soft power.
00:08:51.120 --> 00:08:52.080
Oh.
00:08:52.080 --> 00:08:53.600
Is that a term?
00:08:53.600 --> 00:08:54.879
A term of art?
00:08:54.879 --> 00:08:56.320
Huh.
00:08:56.320 --> 00:08:58.240
I like that idea.
00:08:58.240 --> 00:09:02.240
Um I actually don't know what it means, but I assume it's a very important thing.
00:09:02.480 --> 00:09:07.600
But if you come yeah, compare it with uh the power of the gun, for example.
00:09:08.000 --> 00:09:08.559
Right.
00:09:08.559 --> 00:09:15.120
So, like you know, thousands of people protesting without violence on the street.
00:09:15.120 --> 00:09:16.879
Is that a soft power?
00:09:16.879 --> 00:09:21.200
Like what's happening in Iran that's been happening around the world about Palestine?
00:09:21.200 --> 00:09:22.480
Is that soft power?
00:09:22.480 --> 00:09:23.679
Or is it about leadership?
00:09:24.080 --> 00:09:27.039
Actually, there is a new book out called Soft Power.
00:09:27.039 --> 00:09:27.600
Okay.
00:09:27.600 --> 00:09:31.200
Uh it's probably also out in Canada and the US and the UK.
00:09:31.200 --> 00:09:37.440
It was actually out in also in Japan, but it's uh a Swedish writer called Martin Jellion.
00:09:37.440 --> 00:09:45.120
He was the correspondent in New York for many years, and now he lives in Paris because he couldn't stand living in the US anymore.
00:09:45.120 --> 00:09:49.519
But it's basically the power of culture.
00:09:49.519 --> 00:10:00.799
For example, the US have had a very strong soft power also, not only because of the guns and the military, also because of its culture.
00:10:00.799 --> 00:10:19.120
So even when you know, when they were bomb bombarding Vietnam or, you know, being brutal imperialists, people still love the US because of the resistance, you know, because of all the music, and that's kind of that was like the soft power of the US.
00:10:19.120 --> 00:10:30.879
And he walks through a lot of uh countries uh around how how the cultural is kind of also sending out the message.
00:10:30.879 --> 00:10:44.799
But what is happening now is that many nations, especially the US, is kicking down, you know, hunting down culture and taking over the institutions and so on.
00:10:44.799 --> 00:10:54.399
So actually attacking the soft power of them, their own nation, which is now happening that the US is losing a lot of its good reputation right now.
00:10:54.399 --> 00:11:00.320
And where do you see the most investments in culture right now?
00:11:00.320 --> 00:11:06.639
Saudi Arabia is building like hundreds of art institutions, you know.
00:11:06.639 --> 00:11:07.279
Really?
00:11:07.279 --> 00:11:19.679
Dubai, yes, museums, art museums, art festivals, you know, and Dubai and Qatar and all this, there is billions after billions into architecture, that the all the top architects are building stuff there.
00:11:19.679 --> 00:11:31.440
What they're doing, they're building a cultural label, but without including what is the heart of culture, which is also freedom of speech, you know.
00:11:31.440 --> 00:11:49.600
Let all the voices out, you know, the chaos of culture, the the right to dream, because culture is also the right to dream about the better world, you know, and that is of course then oppressed in in countries like uh Saudi and Qatar and Dubai.
00:11:49.600 --> 00:11:55.279
But but then we have European powers like France, for example, who still invest lots in culture.
00:11:55.279 --> 00:12:02.799
So it but the most positive stories of soft power in the recent years is South Korea.
00:12:03.360 --> 00:12:04.799
Absolutely.
00:12:05.120 --> 00:12:11.440
A lot of the most successful art coming out from Korea is also critical.
00:12:11.440 --> 00:12:20.639
You know, the film Parasite, it's very much about what we did in Korea, you know, it's about the horrible housing situation and an unfair society.
00:12:20.639 --> 00:12:35.360
But the state of South Korea is also uh supporting the distribution of this story out to the world, and that makes Korea now into a cultural giant in this time.
00:12:36.159 --> 00:12:36.639
Huge.
00:12:36.639 --> 00:12:42.240
I mean, and of course, Korean culture, it's critical, but also very joyful.
00:12:42.240 --> 00:12:52.000
The music, the K-pop, etc., that's all being exported, so many movies, comedies coming out of um South Korea as well.
00:12:52.240 --> 00:13:06.879
And then have a look a bit at the north of Korea, China, who are invested millions after millions after billions into this Silk Road project, cultural stories, and they are not successful.
00:13:07.279 --> 00:13:07.759
Yeah.
00:13:07.759 --> 00:13:08.559
Yeah.
00:13:08.559 --> 00:13:11.440
I'm I'm interested in this soft power.
00:13:11.440 --> 00:13:16.399
I as you know, Frederick, I'm writing a book and I'm nearing the final chapter.
00:13:16.399 --> 00:13:33.120
And so the book is, of course, about humanity and the relationship between humanity and home and the way in which humanity is weaponized by Wall Street and other actors and governments and banks and that ecosystem.
00:13:33.120 --> 00:13:38.000
Um, so the final chapter, that's all very heavy, very heavy stuff.
00:13:38.000 --> 00:13:48.639
So I need, you know, the final chapter to be, I want it to be full of joy and possibility, and people will want me to come up with solutions.
00:13:48.639 --> 00:13:50.720
And I'm not one for solutions.
00:13:50.720 --> 00:13:54.480
I I don't know that I want to have a, you know, here's the top 10 things we can do.
00:13:54.480 --> 00:14:11.279
Um, I might do that in a cheeky kind of way, but what I do think I'm interested in is the power of art and culture and and the need for artists to be front and center in the struggles.
00:14:11.279 --> 00:14:18.480
It's not the need, they are front and center in the struggles that we're engaged in right now.
00:14:18.480 --> 00:14:28.720
And in my experience, the people who are speaking most truth and most powerfully will put Mam Danny aside, although he has, you know, behind him an artist.
00:14:28.720 --> 00:14:31.919
Yeah, his partner is an artist.
00:14:31.919 --> 00:14:43.919
But putting him aside, the people speaking the most truth and being the most courageous are artists, writers, documentary filmmakers, um, sculptors, painters.
00:14:43.919 --> 00:14:50.399
I mean, the things I've seen emerge in the last two and a half years in particular is just amazing.
00:14:50.399 --> 00:14:52.799
Poets, I how could I forget poets?
00:14:52.799 --> 00:14:59.519
Um, so so I'm gonna read the book you've suggested, Soft Power, and see if there's something there.
00:15:00.000 --> 00:15:04.720
I think we should uh when we start to have guests again, I would like to invite the the writer.
00:15:05.120 --> 00:15:05.600
Absolutely.
00:15:05.600 --> 00:15:08.000
Soon, soon, I'm almost finished my book.
00:15:08.000 --> 00:15:10.159
We can have guests again.
00:15:10.399 --> 00:15:15.519
So a soft power by Martin Jelin, G-E-I-L-I-N.
00:15:15.519 --> 00:15:18.960
G-E-L I N.
00:15:18.960 --> 00:15:19.200
Yeah.
00:15:19.200 --> 00:15:20.320
We can Google it.
00:15:20.320 --> 00:15:22.080
You can soft power look it up.
00:15:22.080 --> 00:15:26.879
It's out in in uh, I think 30 countries and so on, so you should be able to find it.
00:15:26.879 --> 00:15:30.960
It's it's uh something we should keep talking about.
00:15:30.960 --> 00:15:39.440
That when we now invest so much in weapons, we need to talk about what we want to defend, you know.
00:15:39.440 --> 00:15:41.519
Otherwise, it's no point, you know.
00:15:41.519 --> 00:15:51.279
So, we what we want to defend is of course the culture, you know, and the people, and and then um that because that's the whole point of of uh of democracy.
00:15:51.279 --> 00:15:58.960
So don't divest culture, invest in culture, because that's also resistance.
00:15:59.360 --> 00:16:00.960
That's a nice place to end.
00:16:01.200 --> 00:16:02.720
It is soft power.
00:16:02.720 --> 00:16:07.120
So a soft um goodbye to you, Lilani.
00:16:07.120 --> 00:16:08.879
We'll talk soon again.
00:16:09.840 --> 00:16:10.480
We will.
00:16:10.720 --> 00:16:11.279
Thank you very much.
00:16:11.519 --> 00:16:12.080
Thanks, Frederick.
00:16:12.320 --> 00:16:17.759
Thanks, and to friends, if you want to support the podcast, send us some money on Patreon.
00:16:17.759 --> 00:16:18.559
It's not bad.
00:16:18.559 --> 00:16:21.039
Patreon.com pushback talks.
00:16:21.039 --> 00:16:21.759
See you.
00:16:22.240 --> 00:16:35.919
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