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Hello listeners.
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This segment here we deep dive into the performer's mind, and today we'll be diving into the mind of John Dams, who's been well versed in high performance coaching.
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His various roles over the years that we're gonna sort of understand more about the performance strategy role of things to come.
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So, John, it's a privilege to have you on the show.
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Hi, great to be here.
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A little bit of background about John.
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John has a background of being a performance coach, has been with the Leicester Tigers, with Harlequins over in the UK, Waratars, Rugby here for a number of years.
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We'll get to know all that background quite extensively as we go through this podcast episode.
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We'll get to know him and his background.
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I am really very pleased about having John on because I think John's got a lot to contribute for a number of reasons, it'll become really clear to performance and a deeper understanding of what is the difference that makes the difference in performance in high performance sports.
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And John, I think you've got a far greater background even than just rugby.
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And Kitman Labs, your current role is really broadened that for you.
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I mean, we're talking NFL, we're talking AFL, we're talking football, we're talking rugby baseball.
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Like, you are around the world now.
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So you got this really insight with your performance mindset that I think is just juicy to get stuck into.
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And I'm keen, happier than big Kev at a cleaning post.
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Mate, great to have you on, Damsey.
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We go back a while.
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Those who don't know the story, John, you were head of athletic performance at the Waratars and actually got me in there for a couple of years as the mental skills coach 2017-2018 after what was a woeful series in 2007.
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I think they came second last in the end.
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It got beaten by the force in their final game in 2007.
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It was like a boo-hoo party when I saw it.
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Before all getting into all that, mate, where did it all start for you?
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Where does your love of performance?
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And I'm gonna say human potential, even though I haven't really introduced that yet, where does that come from for you, Dance?
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My academic career started in Dunedin in New Zealand out of the University of Otago.
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When I talk about it, I feel old.
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Only because when I went through my qualifications, I did a Bachelor of Physical Education.
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In those days, that was the only kind of avenue into sport.
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There was no professional rugby at that time.
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It was 1995 before professional rugby started.
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Because there's no profession, the skills around how you manage and work in professional sport weren't really formed.
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And I did a major in exercise description and management in exercise science, which was like the final year of the degree, but all of the practical pieces of that course were very limited.
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So it was kind of left up to you to kind of build your own understanding of how to do things.
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My dad's an engineer, he likes to understand things.
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I think I've got that process around wanting to know the inquisitive mindset around how does this work?
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When you start to break down base performance as a young coach, and I wouldn't even call myself a coach then.
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I was like a trainer.
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It was like, well, what are the foundations?
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How do I figure this out?
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Because I'm not given it.
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I've got the foundation, but to figure out how to apply some of the stuff, you kind of got to go out on your own.
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And that mindset kind of helped me take the next step and iteration over iteration over time.
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Yeah, how does this work?
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So that's a real process and strategic mindset right there, which is my guess, is why you rose to the ranks so fast, which takes me to the next part.
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So seven years with Harlequin's rugby, like from SNC coach or trainer to head of performance, like that's a long time at a top top rugby team in the UK, right?
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Tell us about that experience, that shift from being person who manages bodies to the person being responsible for the whole performance picture.
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Fire out, man, that's a completely different game you're playing.
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What do you mean how you understand performance as you stepped into the broader one?
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Think about that.
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It's kind of like I had the opportunity to fail a little bit.
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Like by trying to understand new things, you iterate, right?
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Does this work?
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No.
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Does this work?
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No.
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You figure things out.
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So by failing, that's kind of how you get to understand these different areas of of what you do.
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But also in the role, like even before Harlequins, when I when I spent some time in Leicester, your first job out of New Zealand, my first job there was around rehab.
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You're kind of like an assistant, you're in rehabilitation.
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So rehabilitation, you're one-to-one with people at the most vulnerable.
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Like you're working with people who are injured who you kind of view success by the way they perform and their team success.
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And that's how they embody their own sense of self-worth.
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So you've got a bit of really vulnerable time.
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So how you build those relationships, how you build rapport with the players was really an important learning tool, right?
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Through that, you learn rehabilitation techniques, you've got your foundation of strength training, but then you're on field, you've got to integrate these players back into technical training.
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So what you're learning is you're learning a broad range of skills.
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And through that, you progress to being a senior coach.
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You learn leadership, you learn how to program across not one but you know multiple athletes, you learn to interact with coaches.
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So what you're doing is just through kind of growing and being in that environment and having an inquisitive mindset, you're learning a broad range of skills, which at that time, Jay, there was no sports scientist, there was no rehab coach, there's one or two physios.
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You didn't have those skills, you had to learn them and acquire them.
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So being part of that process, you learn those skills and they're kind of embodied it into in the end, you kind of know a lot about a lot.
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But you can have those conversations, right?
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And John, how did you sort of go about mapping those skill sets?
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Because, you know, in the world of strength and conditioning, it's very technical, right?
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Like there it came from a hands-on approach.
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When was that pivot to go, well, uh maybe I need some more communication skills or dive into the mind of that athlete?
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Well, it was all around wanting to be better.
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Well, what can I do now and how can I improve from a strength perspective?
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It was this is my skill set.
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I know how to get people strong.
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This is back in Leicester.
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The direct from our head coaches was I want big, strong forwards who can ruck more, scrum.
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And if you know Leicester, if you know rugby union at all, you know that that's a pack, that all they do is ruck more.
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They bring in these, are they world-class and make some of them are, and you know, they wanted them to develop these levels of strength.
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So it's like, okay, right, how do I do that?
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Outside of what I already know, outside of what the rest of the group are doing.
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Okay.
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Well, let's think.
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Well, who's the best?
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So you start to map excellence.
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Well, who's the best at strength training?
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Okay, well, powerlifters strengthen, you know.
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Well, how can we modify what the good things that they're doing into what we're doing?
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And I was lucky enough to be led really well at that time by a coach called Craig White, who really taught me a lot, not just about strength training and being in rugby, but as a like as a leader as well.
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So he helped that.
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And he may have helped that, John, but I'm also hearing some really imperative biases for someone in your role.
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You know, you're clearly a people-focused person.
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You talked a lot about that one-to-one vulnerability that presupposes care for others.
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You've got that in your system.
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Second positioning has to be there.
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So now you've got a lot of that people stuff that is going to be necessary for the depth of that connection to get the influence you're looking for, to get the response from the athlete.
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So you've got that.
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He might have helped you hone that, but that's something you got naturally.
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How do you think that might have also simultaneously held you back in your career?
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We'd probably get to how we our relationship had started, and I had skills dealing with a population 10, 12 years in the UK, then coming to Australia, and I'm all of a sudden dealing with different athletes with different value systems, different belief systems, and I'm like, this is different.
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And I was finding it difficult to coach and work with these athletes the same way I had done with the past and and a very successful career in Europe.
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It's like, this isn't freaking working.
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And I needed a different approach.
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At the time I didn't have the skills to do that, and I'm like, well, I need to change here.
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So it was through failure, as I mentioned before, through failure, where I was like, I need a different approach here.
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Approach I had no idea of where to start until you came along.
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It was interesting because I don't know if you recall our very, very, very first interaction.
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Yeah, we had a system called HubSpot that we were using, and a little ticker would appear, and I had set the intention to work with Waratars Rugby, and I had no idea how I was going to make it happen.
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I wasn't in performance sport in 2016, maybe even 2015.
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I had no background in it.
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I reckon I can add some really big value to performance sport and coaches and athletes, but I don't know how.
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And then the ticket came across and said, you know, John.dams at Waratars.com.
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And I was like, no way.
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And I clicked on it and I gave me a profile, and I picked the phone up and I rank you and you went, Have you got cameras on me or what?
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I said, no, buddy.
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I saw it come up.
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I know I'm a big Waratars fan, have been for a long time.
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I've been looking to expand across into that area, and you know, I want to understand what you're looking for and whether we might be able to help there, and therefore help each other.
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And we got into a conversation about NLP, and you came and did some NLP, and the rest is history.
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We became really good mates after that.
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And you really embedded yourself in the mental side of performance, which I think sets you apart personally.
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So, when did you realize performance was bigger than just the body?
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Was it that moment when you were struggling within yourself to deal with what was a very, very different culture?
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And Waratars was a very different culture at that stage, right?
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A lot of superstars, a lot of people who were also very skilled but also very personally withdrawn.
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Hey, like that there's some difficult characters to cut through into as well.
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Look, there was uh through being involved in professional sport, I was lucky enough to work with some great sports psychologists who gave me a foundation, one of how the brain objectively works, and I thought, and of course you you think you know it all.
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There wasn't like I I didn't know much, but I didn't apply it to myself.
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It was more an application externally to the people I worked with.
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And it wasn't until there was absolute stress failure there where you know my own ego, my own sense of my own worth was high because I'd I'd been successful at two different organizations with the best teams in the world.
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I developed teams and I was very confident in my approach.
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This is how you win, this is what you do, this is how we build a team around a team.
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And it was like, man, this is this is horrible, awful.
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And then like it was kind of like that relief moment and was like that process of understanding how to take a different perspective on yourself, but also on others.
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I remember it you explicitly sa talking about the taking the the position of other and really embedding yourself in someone else's shoes.
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And I remember like I hadn't done that intentionally before.
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I think I can understand other people, but I remember that moment going, wow, and there was another aha moment when we talked through quadrant hygiene, we'll maybe talk about this later, and realization around like the relationship with my father, and then it was like all of a sudden, I was like, what the hell?
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The opportunity for growth, the opportunity for me, it seemed endless.
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And why I kind of pursued the what I'm doing now is because I see the absolute value to being high performing is you need to understand how you do you, which is never ending.
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There's layer after layer, right?
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But then how you understand others, how you really understand them, and that came from those moments and it came from absolute failure, and then understanding performance as from an objective perspective and a systems perspective of how performance occurs through a team, not just an individual, how performance is transferred from a coach's view or vision into a player's actualization or execution, like that's not easy, right?
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Let's move on to Kitman Labs.
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Moved into Kidman Labs, and I think you're now as their APAC director, so you've worked your way up there as well.
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You tell me about Kidman Labs and particularly, you know, because Kitman Labs has been historically all about performance data, data and performance, and the application of that data to get different performance outcomes.
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Yeah.
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Wrap themselves around that.
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You bring a different view to that as well.
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You bring some more richness on the understanding of the people, which happens organically and the stuff you've learned.
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Tell us about how you've integrated all that and what difference it's made for you in what you're doing at Kidman Labs.
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Massively.
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The drive towards it, the drive towards objectivity came from the work that you and the coaching room did around understanding where objectivity sits within communication.
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And that back end when we started when I started doing that work, it was like, right, to be able to influence conversation, influence people, you need to have truth.
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So when you talk about opinion, it's relying on relationship for them to accept that opinion.
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So objective truth becomes such an important piece.
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So developing how to understand and objectify performance became such a driver for me in order to have the right type of conversation, in order to drive where we wanted to go.
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As I left the Waratars, it was all around data, understanding how can I develop objective truth around what's important to drive this team.
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And that kind of came from then understanding how how data works, analytics, multivariate analytics, how to how to actually structure the detail of that.
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And then I met a guy I didn't know, I knew the company very briefly because our CEO and founder, my boss, he was a compatriot with another rugby team based in Ireland out of Leinster.
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So he had the same challenge with his boss, and the company was founded with him trying to be objective with Michael Checker.
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So Michael Checker was the head coach of Leinster and challenged him.
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Well, what does this mean?
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What does this mean?
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And for his search for truth, he spun this company out.
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Joining that company was like, wow, one, the people who were involved were all from sport, and they were just such good people.
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I I loved the company, I still do.
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They just the environment was different.
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But the approach is the power of information, how you use that information drives action.
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Is the people aspect in between?
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But I just saw it as a means to really understand more about performance.
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And I'm so fortunate to be able to understand how some of the best teams in the world, best leagues in the world look at information, look at process.
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It's like a kidney candy shop.
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John, we look into that data side, which is the system's fourth person perspective, if you like.
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Can you dive into that a little bit more?
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That sort of humanizing the data, if you will.
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How have you, over the course of the eight years, made sense in referent to the athlete, in reference to the team, as to making the data meaningful and to drive ultimate points?
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When I first started as a coach, there was no data.
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There was no GPS.
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I'm old, you know, like technology was really young.
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There wasn't the streams of information.
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So your objective truth was your opinion, what you've done, well, this is what I've done, this is what I know.
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Relationally, it was so important via to develop that to them to trust you to say, okay, that's what I think.
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But as the information came, you couldn't rely on that.
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But the person, someone has to make a decision.
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Someone has to ask the right question.
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And the way the scientific principle works is you have someone developing a hypothesis, you gather information, you analyze that information, you make a decision.
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How quickly you iterate on that process depends on how agile you are and what you've been through and how you think, what motivates you.
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So how you are motivated, how you can iterate on that becomes such an important piece.
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So as part of the human, meaning becomes such a massive driver in all this.
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Strong meaning, strong information, strong direction, the possibilities is endless.
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When I think about the last four years of my career or three years of my career, if I had that at the start, poor man.
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Are you talking technical, tactical?
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Are you talking athlete development, team development, all of the above?
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All of the above.
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Again, as you develop, they're not mutually exclusive.
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So you can't work in silos.
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This is what true performance looks like.
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And we we see it and as teams and high performing teams iterate towards being better versions of themselves and elevate, where they they start in these silos where one group working on something like this, oh, working on this, without understanding the other.
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As teams and organizations develop and mature and grow up and wake up, those lines of communication aren't down anymore.
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And they're up and down.
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You talk about that a lot, Jay, right?
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But that's true.
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As teams develop and mature, the way they use information, the way they communicate information becomes such an important piece.
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It all starts at the same spot.
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One group or one person will need to figure out something.
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Okay, the quicker he can do it, the quicker we can move on to the next question.
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And how fast you iterate is becoming a lot easier now with AI.
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You've still got the other piece of the human involved, right?
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You've got the human involved, which is the key piece.
00:16:24.919 --> 00:16:27.480
Then you've got motivation, all the other human elements.
00:16:27.799 --> 00:16:33.799
And Jake, and he was talking about the coach from his perspective having to be quite creative with that information, that data.
00:16:33.960 --> 00:16:43.639
So you could have this raw data and then applying it in his case to his athletes or drivers so that they could make sense and connect with that data at a deeper level.
00:16:43.799 --> 00:16:56.120
And I thought that was quite a pertinent point just to sort of drive home this message of athletes or teams accepting one level of data, but then kind of making you know immense meaning from it in a kind of creative way.
00:16:56.279 --> 00:17:00.279
And whether that's the strength and conditioning coach, fitness trainer, and so forth.
00:17:00.679 --> 00:17:02.840
That's the power of having a strong conversation.
00:17:03.159 --> 00:17:09.880
Richness of that conversation comes from the richness of the information you have, the shared understanding of where you're going together.
00:17:10.039 --> 00:17:13.160
And that's not information, that's a human element to it.
00:17:13.400 --> 00:17:15.720
Shared value, shared meaning, shared understanding.
00:17:15.880 --> 00:17:17.079
This is how we're going to communicate.
00:17:17.240 --> 00:17:17.960
Are you okay with that?
00:17:18.119 --> 00:17:18.359
Great.
00:17:18.519 --> 00:17:22.519
Here's some information, all of a sudden, boom, it supercharges that conversation.
00:17:22.680 --> 00:17:24.519
It supercharges the human interaction.
00:17:24.680 --> 00:17:33.640
And I remember going back to when I interviewed at Catman Labs, I was like, this is so powerful because it's just kind of enhanced every conversation that we have with every other team, right?
00:17:33.799 --> 00:17:41.960
And to be fair, it it has taken a while for the human side to kind of come round where it was very human, very data-driven, you know, data's a new oil.
00:17:42.039 --> 00:17:47.720
But now it's like, well, how can we actually use that and come together and collectively get insights from this as a group?
00:17:47.960 --> 00:17:48.279
Yeah.
00:17:48.440 --> 00:17:53.319
I've done a lot of work, I'm doing a little bit of work in Fiji with Fiji Rugby.
00:17:53.400 --> 00:18:02.359
I've done a lot of work over the years, probably a decade's worth of work with Gareth Baber and people like that, who we've also had on the program, and uh Brad Harris and people like that.
00:18:02.519 --> 00:18:09.960
And the interesting thing about there is they're coming from the opposite approach, they're coming from your old school in Otago where there's no data.
00:18:10.039 --> 00:18:30.359
It's all gut feel, but then you look at how that brilliance of that all gut feel expresses itself through the play, you know, that the flow and the extraordinariness of how Fijians play rugby has become really, particularly in the sevens, the pinnacle for that style of rugby.
00:18:30.519 --> 00:18:35.319
You know, they're making a name for them in international rugby through the flying Fijians and the Drupal as well.
00:18:35.559 --> 00:18:36.680
Coming from the other side, right?
00:18:36.839 --> 00:18:54.680
So then their problem is marrying that up with the angle you're coming from, which is the performance data side of it, to get both elements and then obviously bring in a third emerging, an emergent property that comes from that, which is human plus performance, you know, holistic approach.
00:18:54.920 --> 00:18:57.319
It's a complex process, but it's a human process.
00:18:57.480 --> 00:19:01.079
That is understanding and dealing with the people like your audience.
00:19:01.240 --> 00:19:03.240
How are you shaping and framing this information?
00:19:03.400 --> 00:19:04.680
What you just mentioned before, Derek.
00:19:04.839 --> 00:19:10.920
Like how are you shaping this information in a way which is going to be congruent with what you know of how they're going to receive that information?
00:19:11.079 --> 00:19:13.079
That's a human, it's a mental skill.
00:19:13.240 --> 00:19:16.200
It's a skill to be able to understand how much do I know this person?
00:19:16.359 --> 00:19:19.000
Have I inquired into who they are, how they operate?
00:19:19.160 --> 00:19:19.960
What do I know about them?
00:19:20.039 --> 00:19:20.920
And that's relational.
00:19:21.160 --> 00:19:21.480
Exactly.
00:19:21.720 --> 00:19:23.319
And John, is there a barrier though?
00:19:23.400 --> 00:19:36.279
Like let's say in Fiji rugby or some of the other countries who don't quite have that access to technology and the funding from what you guys perhaps do at Pitmin Labs or from all of your understanding, is there a way that you know funding can be accessed?
00:19:36.359 --> 00:19:47.720
Because I mean that's probably a larger conversation, but it it's important to touch on that, like the degree of accessibility to technology and maybe the attitude, secondly, around those to adopt those might be a hindrance.
00:19:48.039 --> 00:19:50.759
You can run a data-driven program really simply.
00:19:50.920 --> 00:19:55.799
You can quantify subjectivity and use it as a day as an anchor point, right?
00:19:55.960 --> 00:19:59.160
It just stops the speed of how you iterate and where you go next.
00:19:59.400 --> 00:20:04.599
You can build really strong hypotheses around what you're doing and collect information, but it's the speed and your understanding.
00:20:04.759 --> 00:20:07.720
As their understanding grows, the need for data will grow.
00:20:07.879 --> 00:20:13.000
The difficult point would be throwing all this information at a group that doesn't understand how to use it, go the other way.
00:20:13.160 --> 00:20:14.839
Because that's not answering any question.
00:20:15.079 --> 00:20:38.680
So I'm interested, and this is a kind of a different kind of thread, but I'm really interested in your view of how AI is changing and going to change high performance sporting environments in the future, given that AI is looking at it from a data systems process perspective, third fourth person perspective.
00:20:39.000 --> 00:20:42.920
Tell us about your experience of AI getting involved in high performance sports.
00:20:43.079 --> 00:20:44.440
I think most people may have this perspective.
00:20:44.759 --> 00:20:47.240
I think it's a blessing and a curse in some way, right?
00:20:47.480 --> 00:20:54.519
It's a blessing because what it's enabling teams and individuals and even players to do is to be able to iterate on what I mentioned before.
00:20:54.680 --> 00:20:55.400
I've got a question.
00:20:55.559 --> 00:20:58.519
I'm going to gather some information, I'll analyze that information, make a decision.
00:20:58.599 --> 00:21:03.640
And enables that really quickly, which hasn't been historically been able to do that.
00:21:03.799 --> 00:21:11.400
But what typically happens if you don't have an understanding of the information or how the information is produced, how you store that information, what information is it?
00:21:11.480 --> 00:21:12.200
Is it sensitive?
00:21:12.359 --> 00:21:12.920
Can I hold it?
00:21:13.079 --> 00:21:14.119
Can I analyze it this way?
00:21:14.200 --> 00:21:15.799
Can I put that data into a model?
00:21:15.960 --> 00:21:22.920
If you don't understand the structure and process of information, what you put into that model can be very risky.
00:21:23.079 --> 00:21:31.960
But the combination of two, if you've got a foundational data set which you know it's annotated, it's high quality, you can handle the volume, you've got everything.
00:21:32.119 --> 00:21:36.200
AI is an absolute dream because it allows these things.
00:21:36.279 --> 00:21:37.640
But this comes back to the human.
00:21:37.799 --> 00:21:38.920
Counting, discounting.
00:21:39.000 --> 00:21:40.839
Okay, I've tried that, didn't work.
00:21:40.920 --> 00:21:41.640
It's rubbish.
00:21:41.799 --> 00:21:45.960
Where it still comes down to the human and how the human interacts with that experience.
00:21:46.119 --> 00:21:49.720
With the data coming in, understanding of that, the questions they ask of that.
00:21:49.879 --> 00:21:51.160
I use Claude all the time.
00:21:51.319 --> 00:21:59.000
You've got to be very, very like how you ask questions and how you structure that, how you give it context is how you do that.
00:21:59.160 --> 00:21:59.720
It's everything.
00:21:59.879 --> 00:22:01.079
It's a blessing and a curse.
00:22:01.160 --> 00:22:10.440
If you haven't got the structure of the data or the quality, or you know how data influences, like the the quality influ influences, how you analyze it, how you look at it.
00:22:10.599 --> 00:22:23.879
And I think if you inverse it, the AI To IA, which is intelligent augmentation, and kind of adopt that attitude, then it's always, I think, the human creativity, and as Jay and I would say, it's the why and the how that AI won't replace.
00:22:24.039 --> 00:22:29.720
But it will fill it fill those little gaps of the what's and so forth to kind of fill those threads, those gaps.
00:22:29.799 --> 00:22:34.359
And so maybe that sort of paradigm shift of understanding AI is an ongoing thing.
00:22:34.519 --> 00:22:41.319
You know, there's intelligent augmentation rather than it doing everything for us, including taking our creative powers away.
00:22:41.640 --> 00:22:42.039
I get that.
00:22:42.119 --> 00:22:47.319
I get this fear there, but I think there will always be a human gatekeeper who has to be, right?
00:22:47.400 --> 00:23:00.680
Because you know, how teams are looking at performance, how they're at that kind of edge of the unknown towards being better that is widening because the opportunity to look at different things and be quick and be unique is accelerating now as well.
00:23:01.160 --> 00:23:10.519
Do you have any examples, John, of like going back to rugby as who in let's say Australian rugby, the teams that are adopting it better than others, or just a universal now?
00:23:10.759 --> 00:23:12.359
Or worldwide, because you're global, John.
00:23:12.759 --> 00:23:19.960
Actually, most of our customers is football, is soccer, which technically I'm getting to understand, but you deal with it every day, right?
00:23:20.200 --> 00:23:25.400
The best teams are the teams that have a shared understanding of where they're going.
00:23:25.720 --> 00:23:30.519
You're the most influential team, have the best players, you could have the biggest salary.
00:23:30.680 --> 00:23:35.559
If you don't have a shared understanding of what you're doing together, you're not it's not going to work.
00:23:35.720 --> 00:23:37.079
I see it all the time.
00:23:37.240 --> 00:23:41.079
This this path and process that elite and professional teams go through.
00:23:41.240 --> 00:23:51.240
And the ones who have a really shared understanding, and they are not necessarily spending the most on the amount of data, they just really, really collectively in the same direction.
00:23:51.480 --> 00:23:55.160
Because we see it teams with a huge amount of wealth just can't answer questions.
00:23:55.400 --> 00:24:02.200
I'm super keen on this, you know, because I've got a couple of teams at the moment that I work with who I'm trying to break this down.
00:24:02.279 --> 00:24:03.960
So let's break this down, Damsey.
00:24:04.039 --> 00:24:06.680
I think this is a really powerful part of the conversation.
00:24:07.160 --> 00:24:12.680
When you say shared understanding of where they're going and what they're doing, let's break that down.
00:24:12.839 --> 00:24:14.279
What is a shared understanding?
00:24:14.440 --> 00:24:16.519
A shared understanding of what specifically?
00:24:16.599 --> 00:24:18.039
What are we getting to here?
00:24:18.200 --> 00:24:19.240
Is it identity?
00:24:19.400 --> 00:24:22.279
And does expression form part of identity?
00:24:22.440 --> 00:24:29.559
Does identity form part of the way I approach the game, or is identity come before how I approach and execute the game?
00:24:29.799 --> 00:24:30.759
This is a black box.
00:24:31.000 --> 00:24:32.359
I think it's multifaceted.
00:24:32.440 --> 00:24:36.599
I think that it all depends on the humans you have, how that's structured.
00:24:36.759 --> 00:24:43.720
In some ways, if you have, I use the term cattle, because that's what coaches sometimes call their players, knowing the cattle you've got is important.
00:24:44.039 --> 00:24:51.240
If you know the cattle you've got, if you know they're young, they're not quite as well developed, typically that meaning may need to be directed.
00:24:51.400 --> 00:24:52.920
It means it might need to be external.
00:24:53.079 --> 00:24:58.839
If you've got a team of cattle who are old and mature, it's it's just giving them the wheel to steer.
00:24:58.920 --> 00:25:03.480
So which order it comes in and which comes first, I think is all dependent on your cattle.
00:25:03.640 --> 00:25:05.720
And even the coaches, people you're working with.
00:25:05.799 --> 00:25:07.559
But I think how you do that's important.
00:25:07.960 --> 00:25:31.640
I've seen some really good ideas, like even just through observation, how how these New Zealand coaches develop meaning through symbolism, what they do in New Zealand and how they like the you know, the very proud Māori culture there, how they embody some of those principles into their the way they drive their teams, the way they talk, their language, their shared language, the way they talk internally, the way they talk externally.
00:25:31.799 --> 00:25:35.799
Like again, it depends on your cattle, but I don't think there is one way to do it.
00:25:35.960 --> 00:25:40.839
But I think there is how you go about it is your determination, but you have to go about it, in my opinion.
00:25:41.079 --> 00:25:42.519
Yeah, it's a great example, John.
00:25:42.599 --> 00:25:46.119
I I look after some big facility chains here in Asia.
00:25:46.279 --> 00:25:57.559
So and one of those chains have recently adopted some new technology, which is kind of like a CRM, LMS learning management system, essentially how they take their clients from a technology perspective.
00:25:57.720 --> 00:26:09.319
I've always said to them at a high level, I said, if you don't have essentially what you've shared here, a shared understanding, and that these personal trainers on the gym floor really don't make meaning or sense of it, they're not going to value it.
00:26:09.400 --> 00:26:11.559
And if they don't value it, they dismiss it.
00:26:11.879 --> 00:26:25.000
For those listeners out there, whether you're in and amongst it uh training athletes or personal trainers, it's so important that, you know, as a leader, you get like this shared commonality in order to affect something such as incorporating technology.
00:26:25.079 --> 00:26:27.160
So I I've seen it negatively play out.
00:26:27.400 --> 00:26:32.359
I've identified those opportunities from a cultural level, which is what you're sharing now, which sound.
00:26:32.519 --> 00:26:45.960
And even tapping into culture, I think Jake said it before in Fiji Rugby, where if you can tap into faith or something that's collective, energetic, that's a way that you could creatively it's understanding your group, understanding who you're dealing with.
00:26:46.200 --> 00:26:59.960
And it's interesting, like I understood the theory of flow long before I met Jay, but with the coaching presented like the meaning action paradigm and how that plays such a big role in understanding well where your balance sits.
00:27:00.039 --> 00:27:01.960
And I coached to that point most days.
00:27:02.119 --> 00:27:06.440
I coach internally with a company, and we talk about that that action without meaning.
00:27:06.519 --> 00:27:11.319
You know, you've got too much doing, you get this apathetic state, too much meaning without the tools to do it.
00:27:11.480 --> 00:27:12.920
You just get this frustration.
00:27:13.160 --> 00:27:14.119
I can't do it, right?
00:27:14.200 --> 00:27:16.680
So unreally understanding where those paradigms are.
00:27:16.839 --> 00:27:21.000
If you provide too much meaning without the tools to action, then you're gonna have a frustrated group.
00:27:21.079 --> 00:27:25.480
So meaning is important, in my opinion, needs to be absolutely balanced with the tools to execute.
00:27:25.640 --> 00:27:30.200
Yeah, the meaning is the subjective, and then you've got the the tools which are the objective, right?
00:27:30.279 --> 00:27:31.559
The doing, the action.
00:27:31.720 --> 00:27:33.799
And I I find that concept fantastic.
00:27:34.200 --> 00:27:40.599
So, you know, the way we language that is meaning drives performance and you perform your meanings.
00:27:40.759 --> 00:27:47.720
So it goes back the other way, and then being drives doing, and you do from your ground of being.
00:27:47.960 --> 00:27:53.079
So it's like getting both those elements, the being element and the doing element, that is crucial.
00:27:53.160 --> 00:28:01.879
And that's the holistic or integral approach to performance that we bring that that I think we really share in terms of philosophy.
00:28:02.200 --> 00:28:03.799
Small margins, right?
00:28:03.960 --> 00:28:07.000
I'm just gonna like throw it out there and I want your answer, right?
00:28:07.160 --> 00:28:13.559
What is the difference between good in performance, high performance, and great, elite levels of performance?
00:28:13.640 --> 00:28:15.000
Like, give me five things.
00:28:15.240 --> 00:28:17.559
I'll talk about a balance of what we just spoke about.
00:28:17.799 --> 00:28:25.160
Having that meaning, the ability, the drive to develop those skills and action, those doing where you go to a kind of a process mindset.
00:28:25.319 --> 00:28:27.079
It's about the process, not the outcome, right?
00:28:27.160 --> 00:28:30.920
In my opinion, you've got to adapt to an outcome focus when you need it.
00:28:31.000 --> 00:28:37.480
The process goal is fantastic, processes are great, but outcome at the point where you need to be outcome focused, be outcome focused.
00:28:37.559 --> 00:28:39.000
But not but see it for what it is.
00:28:39.079 --> 00:28:40.680
And I think the best really do that.
00:28:40.759 --> 00:28:45.240
Like they know when to be process oriented and they know when it needs to be outcome.
00:28:45.319 --> 00:28:46.200
This is what we're here for.
00:28:46.279 --> 00:28:46.680
This is it.
00:28:46.839 --> 00:28:48.359
Yeah, this is not this is not the process.
00:28:48.440 --> 00:28:51.480
We're not here to kind of go through the we're here to win, right?
00:28:51.559 --> 00:28:54.119
So it's the balance of that and having that kind of competitive edge.
00:28:54.200 --> 00:28:54.279
Yeah.
00:28:54.440 --> 00:28:55.079
So that's two.
00:28:55.160 --> 00:28:58.200
So you've got, you know, the meaning drives performance, which we talked about.
00:28:58.279 --> 00:29:05.559
The second part is adapt from the process, keep a process view, but adapt to the outcome where and when it's needed contextually.
00:29:05.720 --> 00:29:06.519
Give me a third one.
00:29:06.759 --> 00:29:09.799
An understanding of self, a real understanding of self.
00:29:09.960 --> 00:29:13.720
And that kind of sometimes is expressed by like self-depreciation.
00:29:14.039 --> 00:29:16.279
Be okay to like take the piss out of yourself.
00:29:16.440 --> 00:29:25.079
I walked into a Leicester dressing room as a young coach to some of the biggest names in world rugby at that time, just after 2003 World Cup, and they were hilarious.
00:29:25.240 --> 00:29:30.279
They were self-depreciating, they understood who they were, that there's a confidence.
00:29:30.519 --> 00:29:36.279
So understanding who you are and understanding like being really comfortable in your own skin, I think is is important.
00:29:36.440 --> 00:29:38.440
That foundation to emotional intelligence.
00:29:38.599 --> 00:29:43.240
So the only thing from what you said though, importantly at the beginning, was the opportunity to fail.
00:29:43.319 --> 00:29:46.680
And I and I think there's some vulnerability that belies that.
00:29:46.839 --> 00:29:53.160
And so I I think that if it's understood in the right sort of context at the right time, is powerful.
00:29:53.400 --> 00:29:58.920
I think about the really successful teams is like joy being happy in those moments.
00:29:59.319 --> 00:30:01.799
And I had this discussion with a coach today, right?
00:30:01.879 --> 00:30:06.920
And he said, I think joy in to enjoy yourself is different from having fun.
00:30:07.079 --> 00:30:09.160
Fun's light, but it's lighthearted as well.
00:30:09.240 --> 00:30:13.480
Whereas joy is you get joy from going to dark places and coming out the other side.
00:30:13.640 --> 00:30:15.640
And it was like like bang on, right?
00:30:15.720 --> 00:30:17.960
I love that and I I agree with him wholeheartedly.
00:30:18.039 --> 00:30:19.400
I think you're on the money here, bud.
00:30:19.559 --> 00:30:20.759
So I think you are too.
00:30:21.079 --> 00:30:29.720
The joy of working with someone, like working your absolute tits off, and like physically battered, the joy that to come out of that with a with someone.
00:30:29.960 --> 00:30:34.279
Same with a from a coaching, these ups and downs, joying your process.
00:30:34.519 --> 00:30:36.440
Yep, I think you're absolutely on the money.
00:30:36.519 --> 00:30:48.920
When you bring joy to the dark and the light, when you bring it to the ups and the downs, when you actually learn to enjoy the process itself, I think that's when a human being learns the most.
00:30:49.079 --> 00:31:04.599
Like, you know, you've confirmed what I understand from a performance perspective, from engaging with performers, you know, that it's not just a thought in my mind, it's also you're seeing it actualized in the difference between high performance and elite performance out there on the field.
00:31:04.839 --> 00:31:05.640
There's the pinnacle.
00:31:05.720 --> 00:31:13.720
Now, John, uh on this show, we have a lot of listeners who are coaches, you know, practitioners, whether they're you know coaching athletes or trainers.
00:31:13.879 --> 00:31:17.559
Is there any sort of pertinent advice that you'd love to share with those listeners?
00:31:17.799 --> 00:31:18.519
Be inquisitive.
00:31:18.599 --> 00:31:19.960
I think I'm inquisitive.
00:31:20.119 --> 00:31:22.680
I think like really like be curious.
00:31:22.839 --> 00:31:24.519
And that curiosity shouldn't stop.
00:31:24.680 --> 00:31:33.319
Like it's it's that kind of want and need to be better, the want and need to be able to find that leading edge of yourself out in front of what you don't know, being okay to be uncomfortable.
00:31:33.480 --> 00:31:34.119
And that's in everything.
00:31:34.200 --> 00:31:37.480
Like as a young coach, be okay to be uncomfortable in a coaching situation.
00:31:37.640 --> 00:31:41.160
Because that means you're growing, you're understanding, you're learning something you don't know.
00:31:41.319 --> 00:31:43.000
You're at the frontier of yourself.
00:31:43.160 --> 00:31:44.440
So be inquisitive.
00:31:44.680 --> 00:31:45.799
This has been brilliant.
00:31:45.960 --> 00:31:48.599
I've enjoyed every moment and I want to keep going.
00:31:48.680 --> 00:32:00.920
So I think we might have you on again at some stage because there's just so much more here, so much more richness in this meeting of mental skills, meaning, driving, moving into the data and performance outcomes.
00:32:01.079 --> 00:32:02.039
I think there's a lot in it.
00:32:02.200 --> 00:32:04.359
So I think there's a lot more depth we can go into.
00:32:04.440 --> 00:32:06.680
But thank you very much, mate, for your time.
00:32:06.920 --> 00:32:09.240
I know that you share that you you do have your podcast.
00:32:09.400 --> 00:32:16.119
So we'll we'll add all of the details where people can reach out, access your podcast, follow you if that's a thing that you do.
00:32:16.359 --> 00:32:16.839
Instagram.
00:32:17.160 --> 00:32:17.480
I do.
00:32:17.559 --> 00:32:19.799
I it's not my podcast, the it's the companies.
00:32:19.879 --> 00:32:21.160
I've done a couple of podcasts with them.
00:32:21.240 --> 00:32:23.480
It's called the Game Changer Podcast, but not for a while.
00:32:23.559 --> 00:32:26.359
But but yeah, look, I'm approachable if you want to get a hold of me.
00:32:26.599 --> 00:32:35.319
He also works with us at head coach, uh, you know, getting a more holistic approach to what we're doing in the mental skills field as well.
00:32:35.400 --> 00:32:37.640
So there's that will come out and come available.
00:32:37.720 --> 00:32:43.559
And I think, you know, as we release this, I'll pop little links and bits and pieces, and you can as well, Damsey.
00:32:43.640 --> 00:32:44.359
Thanks for your time, bud.
00:32:44.599 --> 00:32:45.160
Thank you, John.
00:32:45.319 --> 00:32:45.879
Appreciate that.
00:32:46.039 --> 00:32:47.160
Thanks, guys.
00:00:20.600 --> 00:00:21.799
Hello listeners.
00:00:22.119 --> 00:00:32.839
This segment here we deep dive into the performer's mind, and today we'll be diving into the mind of John Dams, who's been well versed in high performance coaching.
00:00:33.079 --> 00:00:38.920
His various roles over the years that we're gonna sort of understand more about the performance strategy role of things to come.
00:00:39.000 --> 00:00:41.159
So, John, it's a privilege to have you on the show.
00:00:41.399 --> 00:00:42.200
Hi, great to be here.
00:00:42.439 --> 00:00:44.119
A little bit of background about John.
00:00:44.359 --> 00:00:56.600
John has a background of being a performance coach, has been with the Leicester Tigers, with Harlequins over in the UK, Waratars, Rugby here for a number of years.
00:00:56.759 --> 00:01:03.000
We'll get to know all that background quite extensively as we go through this podcast episode.
00:01:03.239 --> 00:01:05.079
We'll get to know him and his background.
00:01:05.320 --> 00:01:21.640
I am really very pleased about having John on because I think John's got a lot to contribute for a number of reasons, it'll become really clear to performance and a deeper understanding of what is the difference that makes the difference in performance in high performance sports.
00:01:21.800 --> 00:01:25.960
And John, I think you've got a far greater background even than just rugby.
00:01:26.200 --> 00:01:29.800
And Kitman Labs, your current role is really broadened that for you.
00:01:29.880 --> 00:01:35.640
I mean, we're talking NFL, we're talking AFL, we're talking football, we're talking rugby baseball.
00:01:35.960 --> 00:01:37.640
Like, you are around the world now.
00:01:37.719 --> 00:01:44.359
So you got this really insight with your performance mindset that I think is just juicy to get stuck into.
00:01:44.440 --> 00:01:47.480
And I'm keen, happier than big Kev at a cleaning post.
00:01:47.800 --> 00:01:49.480
Mate, great to have you on, Damsey.
00:01:49.640 --> 00:01:50.760
We go back a while.
00:01:51.079 --> 00:02:06.760
Those who don't know the story, John, you were head of athletic performance at the Waratars and actually got me in there for a couple of years as the mental skills coach 2017-2018 after what was a woeful series in 2007.
00:02:07.000 --> 00:02:08.919
I think they came second last in the end.
00:02:09.000 --> 00:02:11.879
It got beaten by the force in their final game in 2007.
00:02:12.199 --> 00:02:14.199
It was like a boo-hoo party when I saw it.
00:02:14.359 --> 00:02:18.199
Before all getting into all that, mate, where did it all start for you?
00:02:18.359 --> 00:02:20.039
Where does your love of performance?
00:02:20.199 --> 00:02:25.959
And I'm gonna say human potential, even though I haven't really introduced that yet, where does that come from for you, Dance?
00:02:26.359 --> 00:02:30.359
My academic career started in Dunedin in New Zealand out of the University of Otago.
00:02:30.439 --> 00:02:31.799
When I talk about it, I feel old.
00:02:31.959 --> 00:02:36.599
Only because when I went through my qualifications, I did a Bachelor of Physical Education.
00:02:36.759 --> 00:02:39.399
In those days, that was the only kind of avenue into sport.
00:02:39.479 --> 00:02:41.239
There was no professional rugby at that time.
00:02:41.319 --> 00:02:43.879
It was 1995 before professional rugby started.
00:02:44.039 --> 00:02:49.319
Because there's no profession, the skills around how you manage and work in professional sport weren't really formed.
00:02:49.399 --> 00:02:59.319
And I did a major in exercise description and management in exercise science, which was like the final year of the degree, but all of the practical pieces of that course were very limited.
00:02:59.479 --> 00:03:03.879
So it was kind of left up to you to kind of build your own understanding of how to do things.
00:03:04.039 --> 00:03:06.039
My dad's an engineer, he likes to understand things.
00:03:06.359 --> 00:03:11.239
I think I've got that process around wanting to know the inquisitive mindset around how does this work?
00:03:11.399 --> 00:03:16.679
When you start to break down base performance as a young coach, and I wouldn't even call myself a coach then.
00:03:16.759 --> 00:03:17.879
I was like a trainer.
00:03:18.199 --> 00:03:19.639
It was like, well, what are the foundations?
00:03:19.719 --> 00:03:20.439
How do I figure this out?
00:03:20.519 --> 00:03:21.479
Because I'm not given it.
00:03:21.560 --> 00:03:26.199
I've got the foundation, but to figure out how to apply some of the stuff, you kind of got to go out on your own.
00:03:26.280 --> 00:03:30.439
And that mindset kind of helped me take the next step and iteration over iteration over time.
00:03:30.759 --> 00:03:32.039
Yeah, how does this work?
00:03:32.120 --> 00:03:40.919
So that's a real process and strategic mindset right there, which is my guess, is why you rose to the ranks so fast, which takes me to the next part.
00:03:41.079 --> 00:03:52.759
So seven years with Harlequin's rugby, like from SNC coach or trainer to head of performance, like that's a long time at a top top rugby team in the UK, right?
00:03:53.079 --> 00:03:59.799
Tell us about that experience, that shift from being person who manages bodies to the person being responsible for the whole performance picture.
00:04:00.199 --> 00:04:02.439
Fire out, man, that's a completely different game you're playing.
00:04:02.759 --> 00:04:07.479
What do you mean how you understand performance as you stepped into the broader one?
00:04:07.719 --> 00:04:08.120
Think about that.
00:04:08.199 --> 00:04:10.519
It's kind of like I had the opportunity to fail a little bit.
00:04:10.679 --> 00:04:13.639
Like by trying to understand new things, you iterate, right?
00:04:13.799 --> 00:04:14.359
Does this work?
00:04:14.519 --> 00:04:14.759
No.
00:04:14.919 --> 00:04:15.399
Does this work?
00:04:15.560 --> 00:04:15.799
No.
00:04:16.040 --> 00:04:16.920
You figure things out.
00:04:17.000 --> 00:04:21.399
So by failing, that's kind of how you get to understand these different areas of of what you do.
00:04:21.560 --> 00:04:29.000
But also in the role, like even before Harlequins, when I when I spent some time in Leicester, your first job out of New Zealand, my first job there was around rehab.
00:04:29.159 --> 00:04:31.399
You're kind of like an assistant, you're in rehabilitation.
00:04:31.480 --> 00:04:34.599
So rehabilitation, you're one-to-one with people at the most vulnerable.
00:04:34.759 --> 00:04:40.759
Like you're working with people who are injured who you kind of view success by the way they perform and their team success.
00:04:40.839 --> 00:04:43.560
And that's how they embody their own sense of self-worth.
00:04:43.719 --> 00:04:45.319
So you've got a bit of really vulnerable time.
00:04:45.399 --> 00:04:50.360
So how you build those relationships, how you build rapport with the players was really an important learning tool, right?
00:04:50.519 --> 00:04:57.560
Through that, you learn rehabilitation techniques, you've got your foundation of strength training, but then you're on field, you've got to integrate these players back into technical training.
00:04:57.719 --> 00:05:00.120
So what you're learning is you're learning a broad range of skills.
00:05:00.279 --> 00:05:03.000
And through that, you progress to being a senior coach.
00:05:03.159 --> 00:05:10.199
You learn leadership, you learn how to program across not one but you know multiple athletes, you learn to interact with coaches.
00:05:10.360 --> 00:05:23.079
So what you're doing is just through kind of growing and being in that environment and having an inquisitive mindset, you're learning a broad range of skills, which at that time, Jay, there was no sports scientist, there was no rehab coach, there's one or two physios.
00:05:23.319 --> 00:05:25.879
You didn't have those skills, you had to learn them and acquire them.
00:05:26.039 --> 00:05:32.599
So being part of that process, you learn those skills and they're kind of embodied it into in the end, you kind of know a lot about a lot.
00:05:32.680 --> 00:05:34.039
But you can have those conversations, right?
00:05:34.199 --> 00:05:37.000
And John, how did you sort of go about mapping those skill sets?
00:05:37.159 --> 00:05:40.680
Because, you know, in the world of strength and conditioning, it's very technical, right?
00:05:40.759 --> 00:05:42.839
Like there it came from a hands-on approach.
00:05:43.000 --> 00:05:50.120
When was that pivot to go, well, uh maybe I need some more communication skills or dive into the mind of that athlete?
00:05:50.360 --> 00:05:52.759
Well, it was all around wanting to be better.
00:05:52.839 --> 00:05:56.759
Well, what can I do now and how can I improve from a strength perspective?
00:05:56.920 --> 00:05:58.599
It was this is my skill set.
00:05:58.839 --> 00:05:59.879
I know how to get people strong.
00:06:00.039 --> 00:06:00.839
This is back in Leicester.
00:06:00.920 --> 00:06:06.920
The direct from our head coaches was I want big, strong forwards who can ruck more, scrum.
00:06:07.240 --> 00:06:11.719
And if you know Leicester, if you know rugby union at all, you know that that's a pack, that all they do is ruck more.
00:06:12.039 --> 00:06:17.719
They bring in these, are they world-class and make some of them are, and you know, they wanted them to develop these levels of strength.
00:06:17.800 --> 00:06:19.639
So it's like, okay, right, how do I do that?
00:06:19.800 --> 00:06:22.920
Outside of what I already know, outside of what the rest of the group are doing.
00:06:23.079 --> 00:06:23.319
Okay.
00:06:23.639 --> 00:06:24.680
Well, let's think.
00:06:24.920 --> 00:06:25.879
Well, who's the best?
00:06:26.120 --> 00:06:27.480
So you start to map excellence.
00:06:27.639 --> 00:06:29.240
Well, who's the best at strength training?
00:06:29.480 --> 00:06:31.319
Okay, well, powerlifters strengthen, you know.
00:06:31.399 --> 00:06:35.000
Well, how can we modify what the good things that they're doing into what we're doing?
00:06:35.079 --> 00:06:45.639
And I was lucky enough to be led really well at that time by a coach called Craig White, who really taught me a lot, not just about strength training and being in rugby, but as a like as a leader as well.
00:06:45.719 --> 00:06:46.839
So he helped that.
00:06:47.079 --> 00:06:54.680
And he may have helped that, John, but I'm also hearing some really imperative biases for someone in your role.
00:06:54.839 --> 00:06:57.959
You know, you're clearly a people-focused person.
00:06:58.039 --> 00:07:03.639
You talked a lot about that one-to-one vulnerability that presupposes care for others.
00:07:03.800 --> 00:07:04.920
You've got that in your system.
00:07:05.079 --> 00:07:07.079
Second positioning has to be there.
00:07:07.159 --> 00:07:16.680
So now you've got a lot of that people stuff that is going to be necessary for the depth of that connection to get the influence you're looking for, to get the response from the athlete.
00:07:16.920 --> 00:07:17.719
So you've got that.
00:07:17.879 --> 00:07:21.639
He might have helped you hone that, but that's something you got naturally.
00:07:21.879 --> 00:07:26.199
How do you think that might have also simultaneously held you back in your career?
00:07:26.439 --> 00:07:42.199
We'd probably get to how we our relationship had started, and I had skills dealing with a population 10, 12 years in the UK, then coming to Australia, and I'm all of a sudden dealing with different athletes with different value systems, different belief systems, and I'm like, this is different.
00:07:42.360 --> 00:07:49.800
And I was finding it difficult to coach and work with these athletes the same way I had done with the past and and a very successful career in Europe.
00:07:49.879 --> 00:07:51.800
It's like, this isn't freaking working.
00:07:51.879 --> 00:07:53.159
And I needed a different approach.
00:07:53.319 --> 00:07:57.000
At the time I didn't have the skills to do that, and I'm like, well, I need to change here.
00:07:57.159 --> 00:08:01.560
So it was through failure, as I mentioned before, through failure, where I was like, I need a different approach here.
00:08:01.800 --> 00:08:05.480
Approach I had no idea of where to start until you came along.
00:08:05.639 --> 00:08:11.159
It was interesting because I don't know if you recall our very, very, very first interaction.
00:08:11.319 --> 00:08:23.240
Yeah, we had a system called HubSpot that we were using, and a little ticker would appear, and I had set the intention to work with Waratars Rugby, and I had no idea how I was going to make it happen.
00:08:23.319 --> 00:08:27.879
I wasn't in performance sport in 2016, maybe even 2015.
00:08:28.120 --> 00:08:29.159
I had no background in it.
00:08:29.319 --> 00:08:35.399
I reckon I can add some really big value to performance sport and coaches and athletes, but I don't know how.
00:08:35.560 --> 00:08:39.639
And then the ticket came across and said, you know, John.dams at Waratars.com.
00:08:39.720 --> 00:08:40.840
And I was like, no way.
00:08:41.240 --> 00:08:47.639
And I clicked on it and I gave me a profile, and I picked the phone up and I rank you and you went, Have you got cameras on me or what?
00:08:47.879 --> 00:08:48.919
I said, no, buddy.
00:08:49.000 --> 00:08:49.799
I saw it come up.
00:08:49.879 --> 00:08:52.600
I know I'm a big Waratars fan, have been for a long time.
00:08:52.840 --> 00:09:01.480
I've been looking to expand across into that area, and you know, I want to understand what you're looking for and whether we might be able to help there, and therefore help each other.
00:09:01.559 --> 00:09:06.519
And we got into a conversation about NLP, and you came and did some NLP, and the rest is history.
00:09:06.600 --> 00:09:08.600
We became really good mates after that.
00:09:08.759 --> 00:09:15.480
And you really embedded yourself in the mental side of performance, which I think sets you apart personally.
00:09:15.720 --> 00:09:19.240
So, when did you realize performance was bigger than just the body?
00:09:19.399 --> 00:09:25.480
Was it that moment when you were struggling within yourself to deal with what was a very, very different culture?
00:09:25.559 --> 00:09:29.480
And Waratars was a very different culture at that stage, right?
00:09:29.639 --> 00:09:36.360
A lot of superstars, a lot of people who were also very skilled but also very personally withdrawn.
00:09:36.519 --> 00:09:41.000
Hey, like that there's some difficult characters to cut through into as well.
00:09:41.240 --> 00:09:53.319
Look, there was uh through being involved in professional sport, I was lucky enough to work with some great sports psychologists who gave me a foundation, one of how the brain objectively works, and I thought, and of course you you think you know it all.
00:09:53.480 --> 00:09:57.159
There wasn't like I I didn't know much, but I didn't apply it to myself.
00:09:57.240 --> 00:10:00.600
It was more an application externally to the people I worked with.
00:10:00.759 --> 00:10:14.200
And it wasn't until there was absolute stress failure there where you know my own ego, my own sense of my own worth was high because I'd I'd been successful at two different organizations with the best teams in the world.
00:10:14.360 --> 00:10:18.360
I developed teams and I was very confident in my approach.
00:10:18.519 --> 00:10:22.919
This is how you win, this is what you do, this is how we build a team around a team.
00:10:23.080 --> 00:10:26.120
And it was like, man, this is this is horrible, awful.
00:10:26.279 --> 00:10:35.720
And then like it was kind of like that relief moment and was like that process of understanding how to take a different perspective on yourself, but also on others.
00:10:35.960 --> 00:10:42.679
I remember it you explicitly sa talking about the taking the the position of other and really embedding yourself in someone else's shoes.
00:10:42.759 --> 00:10:45.159
And I remember like I hadn't done that intentionally before.
00:10:45.319 --> 00:10:58.679
I think I can understand other people, but I remember that moment going, wow, and there was another aha moment when we talked through quadrant hygiene, we'll maybe talk about this later, and realization around like the relationship with my father, and then it was like all of a sudden, I was like, what the hell?
00:10:58.840 --> 00:11:02.679
The opportunity for growth, the opportunity for me, it seemed endless.
00:11:02.919 --> 00:11:13.799
And why I kind of pursued the what I'm doing now is because I see the absolute value to being high performing is you need to understand how you do you, which is never ending.
00:11:13.960 --> 00:11:15.720
There's layer after layer, right?
00:11:15.879 --> 00:11:42.600
But then how you understand others, how you really understand them, and that came from those moments and it came from absolute failure, and then understanding performance as from an objective perspective and a systems perspective of how performance occurs through a team, not just an individual, how performance is transferred from a coach's view or vision into a player's actualization or execution, like that's not easy, right?
00:11:42.919 --> 00:11:44.279
Let's move on to Kitman Labs.
00:11:44.840 --> 00:11:50.279
Moved into Kidman Labs, and I think you're now as their APAC director, so you've worked your way up there as well.
00:11:50.600 --> 00:12:02.600
You tell me about Kidman Labs and particularly, you know, because Kitman Labs has been historically all about performance data, data and performance, and the application of that data to get different performance outcomes.
00:12:02.759 --> 00:12:02.919
Yeah.
00:12:03.399 --> 00:12:04.919
Wrap themselves around that.
00:12:05.399 --> 00:12:07.159
You bring a different view to that as well.
00:12:07.319 --> 00:12:12.840
You bring some more richness on the understanding of the people, which happens organically and the stuff you've learned.
00:12:13.080 --> 00:12:18.600
Tell us about how you've integrated all that and what difference it's made for you in what you're doing at Kidman Labs.
00:12:18.759 --> 00:12:19.159
Massively.
00:12:19.399 --> 00:12:28.279
The drive towards it, the drive towards objectivity came from the work that you and the coaching room did around understanding where objectivity sits within communication.
00:12:28.439 --> 00:12:36.039
And that back end when we started when I started doing that work, it was like, right, to be able to influence conversation, influence people, you need to have truth.
00:12:36.200 --> 00:12:40.519
So when you talk about opinion, it's relying on relationship for them to accept that opinion.
00:12:40.600 --> 00:12:42.759
So objective truth becomes such an important piece.
00:12:42.919 --> 00:12:52.600
So developing how to understand and objectify performance became such a driver for me in order to have the right type of conversation, in order to drive where we wanted to go.
00:12:52.840 --> 00:13:01.559
As I left the Waratars, it was all around data, understanding how can I develop objective truth around what's important to drive this team.
00:13:01.720 --> 00:13:08.759
And that kind of came from then understanding how how data works, analytics, multivariate analytics, how to how to actually structure the detail of that.
00:13:08.919 --> 00:13:19.399
And then I met a guy I didn't know, I knew the company very briefly because our CEO and founder, my boss, he was a compatriot with another rugby team based in Ireland out of Leinster.
00:13:19.480 --> 00:13:25.240
So he had the same challenge with his boss, and the company was founded with him trying to be objective with Michael Checker.
00:13:25.399 --> 00:13:28.120
So Michael Checker was the head coach of Leinster and challenged him.
00:13:28.279 --> 00:13:29.000
Well, what does this mean?
00:13:29.080 --> 00:13:29.720
What does this mean?
00:13:29.960 --> 00:13:32.919
And for his search for truth, he spun this company out.
00:13:33.240 --> 00:13:40.039
Joining that company was like, wow, one, the people who were involved were all from sport, and they were just such good people.
00:13:40.120 --> 00:13:41.879
I I loved the company, I still do.
00:13:42.039 --> 00:13:43.720
They just the environment was different.
00:13:43.799 --> 00:13:49.639
But the approach is the power of information, how you use that information drives action.
00:13:49.799 --> 00:13:51.480
Is the people aspect in between?
00:13:51.639 --> 00:13:55.000
But I just saw it as a means to really understand more about performance.
00:13:55.080 --> 00:14:02.600
And I'm so fortunate to be able to understand how some of the best teams in the world, best leagues in the world look at information, look at process.
00:14:02.679 --> 00:14:03.960
It's like a kidney candy shop.
00:14:04.120 --> 00:14:09.159
John, we look into that data side, which is the system's fourth person perspective, if you like.
00:14:09.319 --> 00:14:10.679
Can you dive into that a little bit more?
00:14:10.840 --> 00:14:13.080
That sort of humanizing the data, if you will.
00:14:13.240 --> 00:14:23.879
How have you, over the course of the eight years, made sense in referent to the athlete, in reference to the team, as to making the data meaningful and to drive ultimate points?
00:14:24.200 --> 00:14:26.360
When I first started as a coach, there was no data.
00:14:26.679 --> 00:14:27.399
There was no GPS.
00:14:27.639 --> 00:14:29.639
I'm old, you know, like technology was really young.
00:14:29.720 --> 00:14:31.480
There wasn't the streams of information.
00:14:31.639 --> 00:14:36.200
So your objective truth was your opinion, what you've done, well, this is what I've done, this is what I know.
00:14:36.360 --> 00:14:41.639
Relationally, it was so important via to develop that to them to trust you to say, okay, that's what I think.
00:14:41.799 --> 00:14:43.799
But as the information came, you couldn't rely on that.
00:14:43.879 --> 00:14:46.279
But the person, someone has to make a decision.
00:14:46.439 --> 00:14:48.200
Someone has to ask the right question.
00:14:48.279 --> 00:14:55.720
And the way the scientific principle works is you have someone developing a hypothesis, you gather information, you analyze that information, you make a decision.
00:14:55.879 --> 00:15:02.759
How quickly you iterate on that process depends on how agile you are and what you've been through and how you think, what motivates you.
00:15:02.919 --> 00:15:06.840
So how you are motivated, how you can iterate on that becomes such an important piece.
00:15:06.919 --> 00:15:11.240
So as part of the human, meaning becomes such a massive driver in all this.
00:15:11.399 --> 00:15:16.039
Strong meaning, strong information, strong direction, the possibilities is endless.
00:15:16.200 --> 00:15:21.720
When I think about the last four years of my career or three years of my career, if I had that at the start, poor man.
00:15:21.960 --> 00:15:24.439
Are you talking technical, tactical?
00:15:24.679 --> 00:15:29.159
Are you talking athlete development, team development, all of the above?
00:15:29.480 --> 00:15:30.279
All of the above.
00:15:30.519 --> 00:15:33.319
Again, as you develop, they're not mutually exclusive.
00:15:33.480 --> 00:15:35.080
So you can't work in silos.
00:15:35.240 --> 00:15:37.319
This is what true performance looks like.
00:15:37.480 --> 00:15:51.720
And we we see it and as teams and high performing teams iterate towards being better versions of themselves and elevate, where they they start in these silos where one group working on something like this, oh, working on this, without understanding the other.
00:15:51.960 --> 00:15:59.799
As teams and organizations develop and mature and grow up and wake up, those lines of communication aren't down anymore.
00:15:59.960 --> 00:16:01.319
And they're up and down.
00:16:01.480 --> 00:16:03.000
You talk about that a lot, Jay, right?
00:16:03.080 --> 00:16:03.799
But that's true.
00:16:03.960 --> 00:16:09.399
As teams develop and mature, the way they use information, the way they communicate information becomes such an important piece.
00:16:09.559 --> 00:16:10.840
It all starts at the same spot.
00:16:11.000 --> 00:16:13.559
One group or one person will need to figure out something.
00:16:13.720 --> 00:16:16.679
Okay, the quicker he can do it, the quicker we can move on to the next question.
00:16:16.759 --> 00:16:20.120
And how fast you iterate is becoming a lot easier now with AI.
00:16:20.200 --> 00:16:22.200
You've still got the other piece of the human involved, right?
00:16:22.279 --> 00:16:24.679
You've got the human involved, which is the key piece.
00:16:24.919 --> 00:16:27.480
Then you've got motivation, all the other human elements.
00:16:27.799 --> 00:16:33.799
And Jake, and he was talking about the coach from his perspective having to be quite creative with that information, that data.
00:16:33.960 --> 00:16:43.639
So you could have this raw data and then applying it in his case to his athletes or drivers so that they could make sense and connect with that data at a deeper level.
00:16:43.799 --> 00:16:56.120
And I thought that was quite a pertinent point just to sort of drive home this message of athletes or teams accepting one level of data, but then kind of making you know immense meaning from it in a kind of creative way.
00:16:56.279 --> 00:17:00.279
And whether that's the strength and conditioning coach, fitness trainer, and so forth.
00:17:00.679 --> 00:17:02.840
That's the power of having a strong conversation.
00:17:03.159 --> 00:17:09.880
Richness of that conversation comes from the richness of the information you have, the shared understanding of where you're going together.
00:17:10.039 --> 00:17:13.160
And that's not information, that's a human element to it.
00:17:13.400 --> 00:17:15.720
Shared value, shared meaning, shared understanding.
00:17:15.880 --> 00:17:17.079
This is how we're going to communicate.
00:17:17.240 --> 00:17:17.960
Are you okay with that?
00:17:18.119 --> 00:17:18.359
Great.
00:17:18.519 --> 00:17:22.519
Here's some information, all of a sudden, boom, it supercharges that conversation.
00:17:22.680 --> 00:17:24.519
It supercharges the human interaction.
00:17:24.680 --> 00:17:33.640
And I remember going back to when I interviewed at Catman Labs, I was like, this is so powerful because it's just kind of enhanced every conversation that we have with every other team, right?
00:17:33.799 --> 00:17:41.960
And to be fair, it it has taken a while for the human side to kind of come round where it was very human, very data-driven, you know, data's a new oil.
00:17:42.039 --> 00:17:47.720
But now it's like, well, how can we actually use that and come together and collectively get insights from this as a group?
00:17:47.960 --> 00:17:48.279
Yeah.
00:17:48.440 --> 00:17:53.319
I've done a lot of work, I'm doing a little bit of work in Fiji with Fiji Rugby.
00:17:53.400 --> 00:18:02.359
I've done a lot of work over the years, probably a decade's worth of work with Gareth Baber and people like that, who we've also had on the program, and uh Brad Harris and people like that.
00:18:02.519 --> 00:18:09.960
And the interesting thing about there is they're coming from the opposite approach, they're coming from your old school in Otago where there's no data.
00:18:10.039 --> 00:18:30.359
It's all gut feel, but then you look at how that brilliance of that all gut feel expresses itself through the play, you know, that the flow and the extraordinariness of how Fijians play rugby has become really, particularly in the sevens, the pinnacle for that style of rugby.
00:18:30.519 --> 00:18:35.319
You know, they're making a name for them in international rugby through the flying Fijians and the Drupal as well.
00:18:35.559 --> 00:18:36.680
Coming from the other side, right?
00:18:36.839 --> 00:18:54.680
So then their problem is marrying that up with the angle you're coming from, which is the performance data side of it, to get both elements and then obviously bring in a third emerging, an emergent property that comes from that, which is human plus performance, you know, holistic approach.
00:18:54.920 --> 00:18:57.319
It's a complex process, but it's a human process.
00:18:57.480 --> 00:19:01.079
That is understanding and dealing with the people like your audience.
00:19:01.240 --> 00:19:03.240
How are you shaping and framing this information?
00:19:03.400 --> 00:19:04.680
What you just mentioned before, Derek.
00:19:04.839 --> 00:19:10.920
Like how are you shaping this information in a way which is going to be congruent with what you know of how they're going to receive that information?
00:19:11.079 --> 00:19:13.079
That's a human, it's a mental skill.
00:19:13.240 --> 00:19:16.200
It's a skill to be able to understand how much do I know this person?
00:19:16.359 --> 00:19:19.000
Have I inquired into who they are, how they operate?
00:19:19.160 --> 00:19:19.960
What do I know about them?
00:19:20.039 --> 00:19:20.920
And that's relational.
00:19:21.160 --> 00:19:21.480
Exactly.
00:19:21.720 --> 00:19:23.319
And John, is there a barrier though?
00:19:23.400 --> 00:19:36.279
Like let's say in Fiji rugby or some of the other countries who don't quite have that access to technology and the funding from what you guys perhaps do at Pitmin Labs or from all of your understanding, is there a way that you know funding can be accessed?
00:19:36.359 --> 00:19:47.720
Because I mean that's probably a larger conversation, but it it's important to touch on that, like the degree of accessibility to technology and maybe the attitude, secondly, around those to adopt those might be a hindrance.
00:19:48.039 --> 00:19:50.759
You can run a data-driven program really simply.
00:19:50.920 --> 00:19:55.799
You can quantify subjectivity and use it as a day as an anchor point, right?
00:19:55.960 --> 00:19:59.160
It just stops the speed of how you iterate and where you go next.
00:19:59.400 --> 00:20:04.599
You can build really strong hypotheses around what you're doing and collect information, but it's the speed and your understanding.
00:20:04.759 --> 00:20:07.720
As their understanding grows, the need for data will grow.
00:20:07.879 --> 00:20:13.000
The difficult point would be throwing all this information at a group that doesn't understand how to use it, go the other way.
00:20:13.160 --> 00:20:14.839
Because that's not answering any question.
00:20:15.079 --> 00:20:38.680
So I'm interested, and this is a kind of a different kind of thread, but I'm really interested in your view of how AI is changing and going to change high performance sporting environments in the future, given that AI is looking at it from a data systems process perspective, third fourth person perspective.
00:20:39.000 --> 00:20:42.920
Tell us about your experience of AI getting involved in high performance sports.
00:20:43.079 --> 00:20:44.440
I think most people may have this perspective.
00:20:44.759 --> 00:20:47.240
I think it's a blessing and a curse in some way, right?
00:20:47.480 --> 00:20:54.519
It's a blessing because what it's enabling teams and individuals and even players to do is to be able to iterate on what I mentioned before.
00:20:54.680 --> 00:20:55.400
I've got a question.
00:20:55.559 --> 00:20:58.519
I'm going to gather some information, I'll analyze that information, make a decision.
00:20:58.599 --> 00:21:03.640
And enables that really quickly, which hasn't been historically been able to do that.
00:21:03.799 --> 00:21:11.400
But what typically happens if you don't have an understanding of the information or how the information is produced, how you store that information, what information is it?
00:21:11.480 --> 00:21:12.200
Is it sensitive?
00:21:12.359 --> 00:21:12.920
Can I hold it?
00:21:13.079 --> 00:21:14.119
Can I analyze it this way?
00:21:14.200 --> 00:21:15.799
Can I put that data into a model?
00:21:15.960 --> 00:21:22.920
If you don't understand the structure and process of information, what you put into that model can be very risky.
00:21:23.079 --> 00:21:31.960
But the combination of two, if you've got a foundational data set which you know it's annotated, it's high quality, you can handle the volume, you've got everything.
00:21:32.119 --> 00:21:36.200
AI is an absolute dream because it allows these things.
00:21:36.279 --> 00:21:37.640
But this comes back to the human.
00:21:37.799 --> 00:21:38.920
Counting, discounting.
00:21:39.000 --> 00:21:40.839
Okay, I've tried that, didn't work.
00:21:40.920 --> 00:21:41.640
It's rubbish.
00:21:41.799 --> 00:21:45.960
Where it still comes down to the human and how the human interacts with that experience.
00:21:46.119 --> 00:21:49.720
With the data coming in, understanding of that, the questions they ask of that.
00:21:49.879 --> 00:21:51.160
I use Claude all the time.
00:21:51.319 --> 00:21:59.000
You've got to be very, very like how you ask questions and how you structure that, how you give it context is how you do that.
00:21:59.160 --> 00:21:59.720
It's everything.
00:21:59.879 --> 00:22:01.079
It's a blessing and a curse.
00:22:01.160 --> 00:22:10.440
If you haven't got the structure of the data or the quality, or you know how data influences, like the the quality influ influences, how you analyze it, how you look at it.
00:22:10.599 --> 00:22:23.879
And I think if you inverse it, the AI To IA, which is intelligent augmentation, and kind of adopt that attitude, then it's always, I think, the human creativity, and as Jay and I would say, it's the why and the how that AI won't replace.
00:22:24.039 --> 00:22:29.720
But it will fill it fill those little gaps of the what's and so forth to kind of fill those threads, those gaps.
00:22:29.799 --> 00:22:34.359
And so maybe that sort of paradigm shift of understanding AI is an ongoing thing.
00:22:34.519 --> 00:22:41.319
You know, there's intelligent augmentation rather than it doing everything for us, including taking our creative powers away.
00:22:41.640 --> 00:22:42.039
I get that.
00:22:42.119 --> 00:22:47.319
I get this fear there, but I think there will always be a human gatekeeper who has to be, right?
00:22:47.400 --> 00:23:00.680
Because you know, how teams are looking at performance, how they're at that kind of edge of the unknown towards being better that is widening because the opportunity to look at different things and be quick and be unique is accelerating now as well.
00:23:01.160 --> 00:23:10.519
Do you have any examples, John, of like going back to rugby as who in let's say Australian rugby, the teams that are adopting it better than others, or just a universal now?
00:23:10.759 --> 00:23:12.359
Or worldwide, because you're global, John.
00:23:12.759 --> 00:23:19.960
Actually, most of our customers is football, is soccer, which technically I'm getting to understand, but you deal with it every day, right?
00:23:20.200 --> 00:23:25.400
The best teams are the teams that have a shared understanding of where they're going.
00:23:25.720 --> 00:23:30.519
You're the most influential team, have the best players, you could have the biggest salary.
00:23:30.680 --> 00:23:35.559
If you don't have a shared understanding of what you're doing together, you're not it's not going to work.
00:23:35.720 --> 00:23:37.079
I see it all the time.
00:23:37.240 --> 00:23:41.079
This this path and process that elite and professional teams go through.
00:23:41.240 --> 00:23:51.240
And the ones who have a really shared understanding, and they are not necessarily spending the most on the amount of data, they just really, really collectively in the same direction.
00:23:51.480 --> 00:23:55.160
Because we see it teams with a huge amount of wealth just can't answer questions.
00:23:55.400 --> 00:24:02.200
I'm super keen on this, you know, because I've got a couple of teams at the moment that I work with who I'm trying to break this down.
00:24:02.279 --> 00:24:03.960
So let's break this down, Damsey.
00:24:04.039 --> 00:24:06.680
I think this is a really powerful part of the conversation.
00:24:07.160 --> 00:24:12.680
When you say shared understanding of where they're going and what they're doing, let's break that down.
00:24:12.839 --> 00:24:14.279
What is a shared understanding?
00:24:14.440 --> 00:24:16.519
A shared understanding of what specifically?
00:24:16.599 --> 00:24:18.039
What are we getting to here?
00:24:18.200 --> 00:24:19.240
Is it identity?
00:24:19.400 --> 00:24:22.279
And does expression form part of identity?
00:24:22.440 --> 00:24:29.559
Does identity form part of the way I approach the game, or is identity come before how I approach and execute the game?
00:24:29.799 --> 00:24:30.759
This is a black box.
00:24:31.000 --> 00:24:32.359
I think it's multifaceted.
00:24:32.440 --> 00:24:36.599
I think that it all depends on the humans you have, how that's structured.
00:24:36.759 --> 00:24:43.720
In some ways, if you have, I use the term cattle, because that's what coaches sometimes call their players, knowing the cattle you've got is important.
00:24:44.039 --> 00:24:51.240
If you know the cattle you've got, if you know they're young, they're not quite as well developed, typically that meaning may need to be directed.
00:24:51.400 --> 00:24:52.920
It means it might need to be external.
00:24:53.079 --> 00:24:58.839
If you've got a team of cattle who are old and mature, it's it's just giving them the wheel to steer.
00:24:58.920 --> 00:25:03.480
So which order it comes in and which comes first, I think is all dependent on your cattle.
00:25:03.640 --> 00:25:05.720
And even the coaches, people you're working with.
00:25:05.799 --> 00:25:07.559
But I think how you do that's important.
00:25:07.960 --> 00:25:31.640
I've seen some really good ideas, like even just through observation, how how these New Zealand coaches develop meaning through symbolism, what they do in New Zealand and how they like the you know, the very proud Māori culture there, how they embody some of those principles into their the way they drive their teams, the way they talk, their language, their shared language, the way they talk internally, the way they talk externally.
00:25:31.799 --> 00:25:35.799
Like again, it depends on your cattle, but I don't think there is one way to do it.
00:25:35.960 --> 00:25:40.839
But I think there is how you go about it is your determination, but you have to go about it, in my opinion.
00:25:41.079 --> 00:25:42.519
Yeah, it's a great example, John.
00:25:42.599 --> 00:25:46.119
I I look after some big facility chains here in Asia.
00:25:46.279 --> 00:25:57.559
So and one of those chains have recently adopted some new technology, which is kind of like a CRM, LMS learning management system, essentially how they take their clients from a technology perspective.
00:25:57.720 --> 00:26:09.319
I've always said to them at a high level, I said, if you don't have essentially what you've shared here, a shared understanding, and that these personal trainers on the gym floor really don't make meaning or sense of it, they're not going to value it.
00:26:09.400 --> 00:26:11.559
And if they don't value it, they dismiss it.
00:26:11.879 --> 00:26:25.000
For those listeners out there, whether you're in and amongst it uh training athletes or personal trainers, it's so important that, you know, as a leader, you get like this shared commonality in order to affect something such as incorporating technology.
00:26:25.079 --> 00:26:27.160
So I I've seen it negatively play out.
00:26:27.400 --> 00:26:32.359
I've identified those opportunities from a cultural level, which is what you're sharing now, which sound.
00:26:32.519 --> 00:26:45.960
And even tapping into culture, I think Jake said it before in Fiji Rugby, where if you can tap into faith or something that's collective, energetic, that's a way that you could creatively it's understanding your group, understanding who you're dealing with.
00:26:46.200 --> 00:26:59.960
And it's interesting, like I understood the theory of flow long before I met Jay, but with the coaching presented like the meaning action paradigm and how that plays such a big role in understanding well where your balance sits.
00:27:00.039 --> 00:27:01.960
And I coached to that point most days.
00:27:02.119 --> 00:27:06.440
I coach internally with a company, and we talk about that that action without meaning.
00:27:06.519 --> 00:27:11.319
You know, you've got too much doing, you get this apathetic state, too much meaning without the tools to do it.
00:27:11.480 --> 00:27:12.920
You just get this frustration.
00:27:13.160 --> 00:27:14.119
I can't do it, right?
00:27:14.200 --> 00:27:16.680
So unreally understanding where those paradigms are.
00:27:16.839 --> 00:27:21.000
If you provide too much meaning without the tools to action, then you're gonna have a frustrated group.
00:27:21.079 --> 00:27:25.480
So meaning is important, in my opinion, needs to be absolutely balanced with the tools to execute.
00:27:25.640 --> 00:27:30.200
Yeah, the meaning is the subjective, and then you've got the the tools which are the objective, right?
00:27:30.279 --> 00:27:31.559
The doing, the action.
00:27:31.720 --> 00:27:33.799
And I I find that concept fantastic.
00:27:34.200 --> 00:27:40.599
So, you know, the way we language that is meaning drives performance and you perform your meanings.
00:27:40.759 --> 00:27:47.720
So it goes back the other way, and then being drives doing, and you do from your ground of being.
00:27:47.960 --> 00:27:53.079
So it's like getting both those elements, the being element and the doing element, that is crucial.
00:27:53.160 --> 00:28:01.879
And that's the holistic or integral approach to performance that we bring that that I think we really share in terms of philosophy.
00:28:02.200 --> 00:28:03.799
Small margins, right?
00:28:03.960 --> 00:28:07.000
I'm just gonna like throw it out there and I want your answer, right?
00:28:07.160 --> 00:28:13.559
What is the difference between good in performance, high performance, and great, elite levels of performance?
00:28:13.640 --> 00:28:15.000
Like, give me five things.
00:28:15.240 --> 00:28:17.559
I'll talk about a balance of what we just spoke about.
00:28:17.799 --> 00:28:25.160
Having that meaning, the ability, the drive to develop those skills and action, those doing where you go to a kind of a process mindset.
00:28:25.319 --> 00:28:27.079
It's about the process, not the outcome, right?
00:28:27.160 --> 00:28:30.920
In my opinion, you've got to adapt to an outcome focus when you need it.
00:28:31.000 --> 00:28:37.480
The process goal is fantastic, processes are great, but outcome at the point where you need to be outcome focused, be outcome focused.
00:28:37.559 --> 00:28:39.000
But not but see it for what it is.
00:28:39.079 --> 00:28:40.680
And I think the best really do that.
00:28:40.759 --> 00:28:45.240
Like they know when to be process oriented and they know when it needs to be outcome.
00:28:45.319 --> 00:28:46.200
This is what we're here for.
00:28:46.279 --> 00:28:46.680
This is it.
00:28:46.839 --> 00:28:48.359
Yeah, this is not this is not the process.
00:28:48.440 --> 00:28:51.480
We're not here to kind of go through the we're here to win, right?
00:28:51.559 --> 00:28:54.119
So it's the balance of that and having that kind of competitive edge.
00:28:54.200 --> 00:28:54.279
Yeah.
00:28:54.440 --> 00:28:55.079
So that's two.
00:28:55.160 --> 00:28:58.200
So you've got, you know, the meaning drives performance, which we talked about.
00:28:58.279 --> 00:29:05.559
The second part is adapt from the process, keep a process view, but adapt to the outcome where and when it's needed contextually.
00:29:05.720 --> 00:29:06.519
Give me a third one.
00:29:06.759 --> 00:29:09.799
An understanding of self, a real understanding of self.
00:29:09.960 --> 00:29:13.720
And that kind of sometimes is expressed by like self-depreciation.
00:29:14.039 --> 00:29:16.279
Be okay to like take the piss out of yourself.
00:29:16.440 --> 00:29:25.079
I walked into a Leicester dressing room as a young coach to some of the biggest names in world rugby at that time, just after 2003 World Cup, and they were hilarious.
00:29:25.240 --> 00:29:30.279
They were self-depreciating, they understood who they were, that there's a confidence.
00:29:30.519 --> 00:29:36.279
So understanding who you are and understanding like being really comfortable in your own skin, I think is is important.
00:29:36.440 --> 00:29:38.440
That foundation to emotional intelligence.
00:29:38.599 --> 00:29:43.240
So the only thing from what you said though, importantly at the beginning, was the opportunity to fail.
00:29:43.319 --> 00:29:46.680
And I and I think there's some vulnerability that belies that.
00:29:46.839 --> 00:29:53.160
And so I I think that if it's understood in the right sort of context at the right time, is powerful.
00:29:53.400 --> 00:29:58.920
I think about the really successful teams is like joy being happy in those moments.
00:29:59.319 --> 00:30:01.799
And I had this discussion with a coach today, right?
00:30:01.879 --> 00:30:06.920
And he said, I think joy in to enjoy yourself is different from having fun.
00:30:07.079 --> 00:30:09.160
Fun's light, but it's lighthearted as well.
00:30:09.240 --> 00:30:13.480
Whereas joy is you get joy from going to dark places and coming out the other side.
00:30:13.640 --> 00:30:15.640
And it was like like bang on, right?
00:30:15.720 --> 00:30:17.960
I love that and I I agree with him wholeheartedly.
00:30:18.039 --> 00:30:19.400
I think you're on the money here, bud.
00:30:19.559 --> 00:30:20.759
So I think you are too.
00:30:21.079 --> 00:30:29.720
The joy of working with someone, like working your absolute tits off, and like physically battered, the joy that to come out of that with a with someone.
00:30:29.960 --> 00:30:34.279
Same with a from a coaching, these ups and downs, joying your process.
00:30:34.519 --> 00:30:36.440
Yep, I think you're absolutely on the money.
00:30:36.519 --> 00:30:48.920
When you bring joy to the dark and the light, when you bring it to the ups and the downs, when you actually learn to enjoy the process itself, I think that's when a human being learns the most.
00:30:49.079 --> 00:31:04.599
Like, you know, you've confirmed what I understand from a performance perspective, from engaging with performers, you know, that it's not just a thought in my mind, it's also you're seeing it actualized in the difference between high performance and elite performance out there on the field.
00:31:04.839 --> 00:31:05.640
There's the pinnacle.
00:31:05.720 --> 00:31:13.720
Now, John, uh on this show, we have a lot of listeners who are coaches, you know, practitioners, whether they're you know coaching athletes or trainers.
00:31:13.879 --> 00:31:17.559
Is there any sort of pertinent advice that you'd love to share with those listeners?
00:31:17.799 --> 00:31:18.519
Be inquisitive.
00:31:18.599 --> 00:31:19.960
I think I'm inquisitive.
00:31:20.119 --> 00:31:22.680
I think like really like be curious.
00:31:22.839 --> 00:31:24.519
And that curiosity shouldn't stop.
00:31:24.680 --> 00:31:33.319
Like it's it's that kind of want and need to be better, the want and need to be able to find that leading edge of yourself out in front of what you don't know, being okay to be uncomfortable.
00:31:33.480 --> 00:31:34.119
And that's in everything.
00:31:34.200 --> 00:31:37.480
Like as a young coach, be okay to be uncomfortable in a coaching situation.
00:31:37.640 --> 00:31:41.160
Because that means you're growing, you're understanding, you're learning something you don't know.
00:31:41.319 --> 00:31:43.000
You're at the frontier of yourself.
00:31:43.160 --> 00:31:44.440
So be inquisitive.
00:31:44.680 --> 00:31:45.799
This has been brilliant.
00:31:45.960 --> 00:31:48.599
I've enjoyed every moment and I want to keep going.
00:31:48.680 --> 00:32:00.920
So I think we might have you on again at some stage because there's just so much more here, so much more richness in this meeting of mental skills, meaning, driving, moving into the data and performance outcomes.
00:32:01.079 --> 00:32:02.039
I think there's a lot in it.
00:32:02.200 --> 00:32:04.359
So I think there's a lot more depth we can go into.
00:32:04.440 --> 00:32:06.680
But thank you very much, mate, for your time.
00:32:06.920 --> 00:32:09.240
I know that you share that you you do have your podcast.
00:32:09.400 --> 00:32:16.119
So we'll we'll add all of the details where people can reach out, access your podcast, follow you if that's a thing that you do.
00:32:16.359 --> 00:32:16.839
Instagram.
00:32:17.160 --> 00:32:17.480
I do.
00:32:17.559 --> 00:32:19.799
I it's not my podcast, the it's the companies.
00:32:19.879 --> 00:32:21.160
I've done a couple of podcasts with them.
00:32:21.240 --> 00:32:23.480
It's called the Game Changer Podcast, but not for a while.
00:32:23.559 --> 00:32:26.359
But but yeah, look, I'm approachable if you want to get a hold of me.
00:32:26.599 --> 00:32:35.319
He also works with us at head coach, uh, you know, getting a more holistic approach to what we're doing in the mental skills field as well.
00:32:35.400 --> 00:32:37.640
So there's that will come out and come available.
00:32:37.720 --> 00:32:43.559
And I think, you know, as we release this, I'll pop little links and bits and pieces, and you can as well, Damsey.
00:32:43.640 --> 00:32:44.359
Thanks for your time, bud.
00:32:44.599 --> 00:32:45.160
Thank you, John.
00:32:45.319 --> 00:32:45.879
Appreciate that.
00:32:46.039 --> 00:32:47.160
Thanks, guys.
