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Mario Herrero: We start with
small steps, and each of us
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is part of the transformation.
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So do it.
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Eat better one meal a day.
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Valerie Kilders: Hello, and welcome to
the Purdue Agriculture Economics Podcast.
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My name is Valerie Killders, and I'm
an assistant professor here in the
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Department of Agricultural Economics
at Purdue University, joined today by
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our wonderful student co-host, Kailee.
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Hi, Kailee.
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Kailee Cooper: Hi, how are you?
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Valerie Kilders: I am
doing very, very well.
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I'm enjoying the students being back
on campus, getting to teach again.
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It's fun from that perspective.
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How have the first couple
weeks of classes been for you?
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Kailee Cooper: It's been great.
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The weather's not my biggest fan, but
we're making it work and going to classes.
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It's been a lot of fun.
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I've had a lot of really good
projects so far that we're getting
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started on in my classes, so I'm
really looking forward to it.
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Valerie Kilders: Oh, nice.
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Any kind of, uh, or what kind of
projects do you have going on?
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Kailee Cooper: So for my senior comm
capstone, we have some different
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professional development kind of things
where we're working on content and
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creating stories for different programs.
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And then I've got a few different ones
that are group projects, presentations,
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case studies, different things like that.
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Valerie Kilders: I like the comms one.
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I think it's so important to be able
to communicate something that's really
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complicated to a broad audience.
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And actually, I think we have someone here
as a guest today that probably knows- a
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lot about making things understandable
in a manner that it's relevant for
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absolute expert, as well as people
that are just getting into the topic.
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Now, Kailee, can you introduce
who we have here today?
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Kailee Cooper: Yeah, I'm excited to have
Mario Herrero, a professor in the Cornell
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College of Ag and Life Science Department
of Global Development, and the director
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of Food Systems and Global Change.
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How are you doing today, Mario?
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Mario Herrero: Yeah, I'm doing great.
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Thanks for the invitation.
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Kailee Cooper: We're so glad you're here.
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You came a long ways.
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I guess to start out with, can you tell
us a little bit about your background
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and what first got you interested in food
sustainability, and what your path to
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Cornell University really looked like?
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Mario Herrero: Okay.
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Yeah I'm Costa Rican, so I really come
from a very biodiverse place in the world.
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And, I really fell in love with, you
know, all the animals that you get in
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farmland in Costa Rica, and it inevitably
led to me wanting to work at the
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intersection of food and the environment.
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And, you know, we're also a very
healthy country, so those three
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things really, it's impossible for
you not to end up working in healthy
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diets from sustainable food systems.
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You asked me how, how
did I end up at Cornell.
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Well, I, it's a long, long route.
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So I studied in Costa Rica, did my
PhD- At the University of Edinburgh
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in Scotland where I stayed 10 years,
then worked in Kenya for 14 years.
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I worked for the International
Livestock Research Institute.
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Then moved another decade to Australia,
and ended up working at Cornell then.
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Kailee Cooper: Do you have a
favorite place where you lived?
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Mario Herrero: No, I love them all.
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I love them all.
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You know, I'm very adaptable.
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Kailee Cooper: Sounds like it.
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Mario Herrero: I, and I love-
I'm loving Ithaca at the moment
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because, you know, it's so forested,
so many lakes, so many outdoor
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activities, and the people are great
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Valerie Kilders: I'm a big fan of a
lot of the places that you mentioned.
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I actually lived in Costa Rica
for just two months, but it was a-
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Okay … wonderful experience, so yeah.
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Pura vida.
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Mario Herrero: Pura vida.
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Valerie Kilders: So with all these
different places you've lived at,
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and also the research that you are
doing now, there must be some kind
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of intersection probably, like
your life informing your research.
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So can you maybe share with us how your
perspectives have shaped the work that
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you're doing now, especially when it
comes to food security and sustainability?
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Mario Herrero: Mm-hmm.
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I think that the main ingredient
in all of this is land.
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It's all about caring for what
the land can give you, and the
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land can give you many things.
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The land can give you agriculture,
it can give you forests, it can give
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you… It can support better ecosystem
services, it can give you a lot of
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biodiversity, carbon, et cetera.
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So I'm interested in making the
best use of land for the benefits
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of humans and for ecosystems.
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Obviously for humans it is food,
in many cases food and fiber.
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And it… What we eat matters a lot.
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Matters a lot for our health, but
it also matters for the environment
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because different things that we grow
will produce different amounts of
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greenhouse gases, will actually have
different water footprints, will consume
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different amounts of nitrogen and
phosphorus the way that we produce them.
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And depending on how, on the yields
and how much we can intensify them,
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you know, they will use different
amounts of land for producing.
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So you know it's all very integrated.
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It's one single system.
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And I'm also really interested in
thinking not only at the farm level,
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but thinking of the whole food system.
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How can we really connect a food
production to all the way to the consumer?
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Having everybody… Leaving no one
behind, if you want to say it like that,
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because this is also about justice.
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You know, everybody needs to
make a decent living out of this.
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And also we need to ensure that,
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It, it's also the processors, the,
you know, the, the packing plants,
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the food environment is really,
really healthy to support the kinds
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of goals that we're interested in.
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So we need to think in a,
in a very comprehensive way
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Valerie Kilders: Combining the
economic, social, and environmental
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aspect of sustainability
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Mario Herrero: Absolutely.
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Sustainability is not only environmental.
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Sustainability is also, ensuring
that the farmers can have
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prosperity and lead good lives.
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Sustainability is being healthy
so that the global… So that the
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bills of you know, of diseases and
risk don't increase, so that obesity
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is under control and the likes
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Kailee Cooper: That's so interesting.
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So I know you've kind of talked a little
bit about it, but leading into the
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EAT-Lancet that you have been involved
in and how that kind of led to that,
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can you explain to our viewers a little
bit more about what that means and
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what that is and how you got into that?
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Mario Herrero: Sure.
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The EAT-Lancet Commission is a,
commission of scientists that works,
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that is, uh, organized by the journal
called The Lancet, which is the
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major medical journal in the world.
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And they do these kinds of commissions
for different aspects related to health.
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In our case, this is about how can
we produce healthy diets… no.
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How can we have healthy diets
from sustainable food systems?
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And, it's a complex problem.
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So we had nutritionists, economists,
people working on environmental
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aspects, on justice aspects, on how
do we transform the food system, on
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ultra-processed foods, on livestock,
on horticulture, you name it.
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It's a whole raft of professionals that
come together and work for three and
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a half, four years, and then release
a report summarizing the evidence that
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exists around the world on this topic.
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In our case, it's, you know, it's…
So we had a group on nutrition.
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So what is a healthy
diet was the question.
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What is a healthy diet?
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We have food-based dietary guidelines
in different countries, but, you
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know, how can we summarize the
information that's out there in terms
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of, trials and experiments and all
the literature just to see, you know,
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for example how, what proportion of
vegetables should be in your diet?
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It's asking a question like that.
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And what levels of inclusion of
particular components will actually
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lead to reduce the risks of, say,
obesity or diabetes or heart disease?
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Because we want a diet that is actually,
that actually reduces those risk factors.
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It's also important.
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It's not only making sure that you
eat the right amounts of protein,
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the right amount of energy and
micronutrients, but it's also that risk
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factor element that comes on board.
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Then, you know, we have a group
on the environment, and that group
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really evaluates, well, in different
countries of the world- all these
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ingredients that this diet have, how
can we produce them more sustainably?
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And that is i-i-- with, within something
that we call planetary boundaries.
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The planetary boundaries are basically a
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Targets that we need to,, not
exceed in order to maintain the
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world working in the right way.
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You know, keeping the biosphere active,
ensuring that we have water flows,
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ensuring that the oceans don't end up
with a lot of acidification and the likes.
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So we have the diet.
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We need to produce it in line with
the planetary boundaries, leaving
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no one behind, which means for all.
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You know, for the rich, for the poor.
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Accepting all the cultural differences
that we have in our eating patterns,
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ensuring that the diet is affordable
And ensuring that those who produce
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it have rights and can actually make
a good living from what they're doing.
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Then there's the issue
of food loss and waste.
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We need to actually deal a lot
with food loss and waste, and try
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to find alternatives for reducing
food loss and waste From production
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all the way to the consumer.
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Believe it or not, we waste about 35
to 40% of the food that we produce.
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In low-income countries, it's
mostly at the farm level,
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it's practices, it's storage.
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And in rich countries, it's
mostly poi- post-consumer waste.
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So it's that piece of chicken that you
didn't eat because you decided to go out
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that night with your friends, and then the
next day you come and you see that little
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piece of chicken, and then you realize
that it doesn't look as great as two days
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before, and then you chuck it in the bin.
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And that's the kind of, That
generates a lot, a lot of waste.
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And sell-by dates.
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Sell-by dates- Mm … in
supermarkets and things like that.
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So we need to deal with all
these aspects at the same time.
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Then we have also a big component
trying to model or quantify this
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difference and trying to find,
well, what are the solutions?
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How, how can we do this?
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And then what are the kinds of options?
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Is circularity one of them?
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Is a regenerative agriculture another?
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Is better packaging?
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food processing could it
yield less waste, for example?
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Uh, could we increase sell-by dates?
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What are the kinds of policies that we
need to do to support these changes and
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incentivize everybody to produce the right
kinds of foods at the right cost as well?
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So we study all this complexity together,
and then, you know, advise governments,
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advise, big international agencies.
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And it's, it's super interesting
because, for example, take Brazil.
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Brazil adopted the EAT-Lancet diet for all
the schools, and they're producing this
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diet from small and medium-sized farms.
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That is 50 million kids fed
every day in schools using-
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That's a lot
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…
the EAT-Lancet diet.
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That's a lot.
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Mexico is on the way of implementing
the EAT-Lancet diet in their schools.
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New York City, a million school
meals based on the EAT-Lancet diet.
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So- It's not insignificant.
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Of course, you know, these are examples
in specific places, but we need to
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really transform the food system so
that we mainstream all these concepts.
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We mainstream that, we mainstream
good food is good health.
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And yes, we know what we typically
get told is it needs to be convenient,
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it needs to taste delicious.
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You know?
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Yeah,
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I know that there's only so many
ways that you can eat kale, for
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example, or things like that.
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I love it, but you know,
it's not for everybody.
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Or convenience, you know, beans
are fantastic, but if you have to
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boil them for a couple of hours,
you know, it's not that easy for,
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for say, an urban consumer to…
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that is all rushed and everything, to
just go and pick the right choices.
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We need to make those choices available.
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And for that, companies need incentives
that, to produce that as well.
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Valerie Kilders: So with all
of these complexities, right?
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Like you touched on so many different
challenges that are coming together
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that are creating this, well,
ball of yarn where you probably
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don't even know where to start.
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Mario Herrero: Yeah
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Valerie Kilders: How do you
approach that challenge?
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Like from a practical component.
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Mario Herrero: With difficulty.
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That's probably the right answer.
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No.
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But well, engaging actors.
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Engaging actors, and really understanding
what their needs are, what the
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complexities of local food systems are.
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Because, you know, this is a … You
can call it a, a grand global idea.
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But ultimately, it needs to be
implemented at a truly local level.
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And it's really working with
the actors of the food system
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to really make these plans.
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Building these coalitions that, you know,
need to encompass from the policymaker,
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the farmer, the café owner, , the
different producers of different things.
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Eh, and you know, we need their
views, their values their ideas of
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how the future looks like, and what
would they be prepared to do together
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to create the changes that we need.
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I think that that's absolutely
essential because, you know, it's
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not … This is not about one, one
person's vision, or this is not
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about the vision of the companies.
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No.
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This is a societal issue, and this
is about really, ensuring that
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people eat good food, that they
want good food, and having a system
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that actually can transform itself
to really produce, eh, the food
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according to, the best guidelines and
sustainability guidelines that we have.
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So yeah, and you know,
it's little by little.
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That's the other part of
the question, you know.
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It's like these individual examples.
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We need … We're building this,
eh, food systems transformation
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with little stories of success
in different parts of the world.
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And believe me, there's a lot of change,
positive change already happening at
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around the world in all these spaces.
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We need to celebrate more this, with
these little wins, rather than always
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complaining that, things are not
happening at the pace that, that we want.
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And, you know, and both of you are
really the key drivers of change of
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this fundamental transformation because
it's really youth who will actually
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have to bear the costs and, and
implement this great transformation.
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And it starts, by with good education,
a good change of eating habits, a real
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understanding of, you know, what happens
if, if we only eat junk food, for example.
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I mean, we see the consequences here
in the US, for example, in terms of
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the, in terms of the health bill.
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We're talking about, about
$4.5 trillion a year.
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That's the health bill, and 80%
of that has a dietary component.
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We need early education, from tiny
kids eating good food, getting used
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to eating fruits, vegetables, less
ultra-processed foods, and then really
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understanding what these consequences
are, and then building the, Lego.
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The Lego, yeah.
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That's what we need.
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Little blocks, everybody
doing what they need to do.
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Kailee Cooper: Well, speaking of
celebrating, we can, uh, kinda
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celebrate on the podcast today maybe.
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Do you have any, like, stories that have
been some of those changes you've seen or
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something that kinda stuck out to you that
may be a little more than the others, or
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something that you're just super proud of?
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Mario Herrero: Well, you know, the
Brazil example, I love it because
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a lot of people tend to say, "Oh,
well, but that's difficult to scale."
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Well, you know, we are Brazil.
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That's a good example of success,
and which shows that, you know, with
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the right incentives and government
support and alignment with the private
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industry, you can really make this happen
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Kailee Cooper: I guess going off of
that, do you have any, I don't know,
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say, challenges that you've seen that
kind of were a struggle to get past or
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think about in that aspect that you've
thought about through the process?
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Mario Herrero: Oh, I have many, you know.
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Mm-hmm.
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You have no idea how many challenges
we've studied, and it's, it's really
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difficult, you know, because there's,
there's a huge political economy
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on transforming the food system.
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There's obviously very large and powerful
companies that are doing great with the
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status quo, so why would they change?
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So creating change where you
have a lot of lobbying, a lot of
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power, a lot of consolidation.
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There's too few companies handling
everything related to food in the world.
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And, you know, we need to make sure
that, that consumers also, uh, really
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stipulate and say what they want.
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Uh, and that we actually provide
the scientific evidence on
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the changes that are needed.
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For example, I would love some of
the big companies that do a lot of
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the ultra-processed foods to start
changing their project portfolio, start
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including options that are actually
healthier and more sustainable.
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Let's do things… Let's
start with large factories.
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You know, let's feed, the workforce.
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I- imagine a car plant.
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Imagine a, you know, big places
that have a lot of people.
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Uh, or hospitals or, we mentioned
schools, university canteens.
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There's a lot of people eating
there, and we could actually start by
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changing menus in many of those places.
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And, you know, we start a meal a day.
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And if it's lunch, well,
it's at least something if…
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But at least you didn't eat the same,
breakfast, lunch, and dinner, but I
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think that there's many ways in which
we could actually put bundles of
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solutions to work to solve this problem.
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Valerie Kilders: Is there a specific
area that you would say where we
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don't just yet have the answers?
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So maybe something that's understudied
yet, but where you see a lot
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of potential in terms of future
improvements for sustainability.
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Mario Herrero: Yeah.
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I think that we don't know well how
to repurpose subsidies, for example.
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At the moment, subsidies
go to produce kilocalories.
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It's usually very large producers.
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But if we need to produce more fruits
and vegetables, well, how do we do that?
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And how do we create the value chains?
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How do we create the, all the associated
products that need to be produced?
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And how… Will we need some subsidies
initially just to ensure that they're
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affordable, those products, until
we actually kickstart the production
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at a high level, as an example.
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That's one thing.
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We don't know the right policy cues
to curb consumption of certain things.
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How do we make people eat less
of a certain product they,
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I don't know, beef or sugar.
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How do we make people eat less
of that when in the world, unless
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we've had wars where we've had
rationing voluntarily, we've never
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had to deal with overconsumption
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It's a lot easier if you have
undernutrition because you
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know you're on the way up.
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You need to consume more,
and so it's a lot easier.
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But once you've overshoot the…
Once you've overshot the consumption,
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then how do we bring everything back?
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And this is where the, where the
health aspects really come in place.
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If people have had a better knowledge
of the risks of overconsuming and
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the risks of obesity well, maybe they
will start doing something different.
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Or if the insurance premiums were
different or, you know, there's many
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ways in which this could be approached
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Kailee Cooper: So you kind of talked
about how the youth are part of where
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this starts, just because we gotta
start young and start building on that.
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Is there any advice that you would give
maybe an undergraduate student or somebody
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who's looking to study the impacts on
agriculture and/or food sustainability?
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Mario Herrero: Come to see me.
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No.
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No, no.
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But there's lots of ways of engaging in
research and initiatives around this.
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You know, we even at the EAT-Lancet
Commission have, uh, youth programs.
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We want to include youth, and we're
going to have in the forthcoming
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assessment, we want to include
more people, more, more students
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involved in the report, et cetera.
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I mean, that sounds small,
but it's, planting a seed.
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Planting a seed.
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The same, we need to have more food
systems courses at universities
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extension departments and others.
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I think that we just need, to
get the evidence out in different
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ways for different people,
different consumers, et cetera
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Kailee Cooper: Before we finish up I
guess I'll ask is there really anything
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else that you wanna tell our listeners
before we get finish up here, or anything
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else you didn't get to say you wanna say?
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Mario Herrero: Yeah.
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I would like to say that, you
know, the transformation is you.
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The transformation is not waiting
for somebody to do something.
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We start with small steps, and each
of us is part of the transformation.
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So do it.
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Eat better one meal a day.
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Valerie Kilders: Wonderful.
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This was so insightful.
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I've, I really enjoyed listening to you
and hearing how you take that big picture
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and break it down into its components.
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That was, I think, very helpful for
our listeners, and as a host of this
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podcast, I certainly enjoyed it.
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Kailee Cooper: Well, thank you so
much for coming on the podcast today.
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You have been so insightful to hear from,
and we're so glad you came and spent a
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little bit of your time at Purdue with us
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Mario Herrero: Thank you
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Kailee Cooper: You have been listening to
the Purdue Agriculture Economics Podcast.
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You can find us on Spotify,
Apple Podcasts, and Podbean.
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Have a good day
00:00:00,000 --> 00:00:02,809
Mario Herrero: We start with
small steps, and each of us
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is part of the transformation.
3
00:00:05,479 --> 00:00:06,159
So do it.
4
00:00:06,669 --> 00:00:08,579
Eat better one meal a day.
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00:00:09,296 --> 00:00:12,696
Valerie Kilders: Hello, and welcome to
the Purdue Agriculture Economics Podcast.
6
00:00:12,766 --> 00:00:16,196
My name is Valerie Killders, and I'm
an assistant professor here in the
7
00:00:16,196 --> 00:00:21,906
Department of Agricultural Economics
at Purdue University, joined today by
8
00:00:21,946 --> 00:00:24,896
our wonderful student co-host, Kailee.
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00:00:24,896 --> 00:00:25,846
Hi, Kailee.
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00:00:26,166 --> 00:00:26,946
Kailee Cooper: Hi, how are you?
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Valerie Kilders: I am
doing very, very well.
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I'm enjoying the students being back
on campus, getting to teach again.
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It's fun from that perspective.
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How have the first couple
weeks of classes been for you?
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Kailee Cooper: It's been great.
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The weather's not my biggest fan, but
we're making it work and going to classes.
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It's been a lot of fun.
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I've had a lot of really good
projects so far that we're getting
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started on in my classes, so I'm
really looking forward to it.
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Valerie Kilders: Oh, nice.
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Any kind of, uh, or what kind of
projects do you have going on?
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Kailee Cooper: So for my senior comm
capstone, we have some different
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00:01:01,196 --> 00:01:06,116
professional development kind of things
where we're working on content and
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00:01:06,126 --> 00:01:09,506
creating stories for different programs.
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And then I've got a few different ones
that are group projects, presentations,
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case studies, different things like that.
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Valerie Kilders: I like the comms one.
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I think it's so important to be able
to communicate something that's really
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complicated to a broad audience.
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And actually, I think we have someone here
as a guest today that probably knows- a
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lot about making things understandable
in a manner that it's relevant for
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absolute expert, as well as people
that are just getting into the topic.
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Now, Kailee, can you introduce
who we have here today?
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Kailee Cooper: Yeah, I'm excited to have
Mario Herrero, a professor in the Cornell
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College of Ag and Life Science Department
of Global Development, and the director
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of Food Systems and Global Change.
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How are you doing today, Mario?
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Mario Herrero: Yeah, I'm doing great.
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Thanks for the invitation.
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Kailee Cooper: We're so glad you're here.
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You came a long ways.
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I guess to start out with, can you tell
us a little bit about your background
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and what first got you interested in food
sustainability, and what your path to
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Cornell University really looked like?
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Mario Herrero: Okay.
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Yeah I'm Costa Rican, so I really come
from a very biodiverse place in the world.
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And, I really fell in love with, you
know, all the animals that you get in
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farmland in Costa Rica, and it inevitably
led to me wanting to work at the
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intersection of food and the environment.
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And, you know, we're also a very
healthy country, so those three
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things really, it's impossible for
you not to end up working in healthy
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diets from sustainable food systems.
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You asked me how, how
did I end up at Cornell.
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Well, I, it's a long, long route.
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So I studied in Costa Rica, did my
PhD- At the University of Edinburgh
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in Scotland where I stayed 10 years,
then worked in Kenya for 14 years.
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I worked for the International
Livestock Research Institute.
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Then moved another decade to Australia,
and ended up working at Cornell then.
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Kailee Cooper: Do you have a
favorite place where you lived?
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Mario Herrero: No, I love them all.
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I love them all.
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You know, I'm very adaptable.
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Kailee Cooper: Sounds like it.
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Mario Herrero: I, and I love-
I'm loving Ithaca at the moment
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because, you know, it's so forested,
so many lakes, so many outdoor
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activities, and the people are great
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Valerie Kilders: I'm a big fan of a
lot of the places that you mentioned.
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I actually lived in Costa Rica
for just two months, but it was a-
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Okay … wonderful experience, so yeah.
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Pura vida.
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Mario Herrero: Pura vida.
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Valerie Kilders: So with all these
different places you've lived at,
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and also the research that you are
doing now, there must be some kind
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of intersection probably, like
your life informing your research.
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So can you maybe share with us how your
perspectives have shaped the work that
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you're doing now, especially when it
comes to food security and sustainability?
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Mario Herrero: Mm-hmm.
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I think that the main ingredient
in all of this is land.
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It's all about caring for what
the land can give you, and the
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land can give you many things.
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The land can give you agriculture,
it can give you forests, it can give
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you… It can support better ecosystem
services, it can give you a lot of
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biodiversity, carbon, et cetera.
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So I'm interested in making the
best use of land for the benefits
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of humans and for ecosystems.
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Obviously for humans it is food,
in many cases food and fiber.
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And it… What we eat matters a lot.
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Matters a lot for our health, but
it also matters for the environment
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because different things that we grow
will produce different amounts of
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greenhouse gases, will actually have
different water footprints, will consume
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different amounts of nitrogen and
phosphorus the way that we produce them.
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And depending on how, on the yields
and how much we can intensify them,
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you know, they will use different
amounts of land for producing.
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So you know it's all very integrated.
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It's one single system.
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And I'm also really interested in
thinking not only at the farm level,
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but thinking of the whole food system.
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How can we really connect a food
production to all the way to the consumer?
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Having everybody… Leaving no one
behind, if you want to say it like that,
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because this is also about justice.
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You know, everybody needs to
make a decent living out of this.
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And also we need to ensure that,
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It, it's also the processors, the,
you know, the, the packing plants,
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the food environment is really,
really healthy to support the kinds
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of goals that we're interested in.
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So we need to think in a,
in a very comprehensive way
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Valerie Kilders: Combining the
economic, social, and environmental
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aspect of sustainability
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Mario Herrero: Absolutely.
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Sustainability is not only environmental.
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Sustainability is also, ensuring
that the farmers can have
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prosperity and lead good lives.
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Sustainability is being healthy
so that the global… So that the
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bills of you know, of diseases and
risk don't increase, so that obesity
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is under control and the likes
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Kailee Cooper: That's so interesting.
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So I know you've kind of talked a little
bit about it, but leading into the
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EAT-Lancet that you have been involved
in and how that kind of led to that,
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can you explain to our viewers a little
bit more about what that means and
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what that is and how you got into that?
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Mario Herrero: Sure.
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The EAT-Lancet Commission is a,
commission of scientists that works,
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that is, uh, organized by the journal
called The Lancet, which is the
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major medical journal in the world.
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And they do these kinds of commissions
for different aspects related to health.
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In our case, this is about how can
we produce healthy diets… no.
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How can we have healthy diets
from sustainable food systems?
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And, it's a complex problem.
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So we had nutritionists, economists,
people working on environmental
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aspects, on justice aspects, on how
do we transform the food system, on
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ultra-processed foods, on livestock,
on horticulture, you name it.
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It's a whole raft of professionals that
come together and work for three and
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a half, four years, and then release
a report summarizing the evidence that
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exists around the world on this topic.
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In our case, it's, you know, it's…
So we had a group on nutrition.
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So what is a healthy
diet was the question.
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What is a healthy diet?
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We have food-based dietary guidelines
in different countries, but, you
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know, how can we summarize the
information that's out there in terms
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of, trials and experiments and all
the literature just to see, you know,
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for example how, what proportion of
vegetables should be in your diet?
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It's asking a question like that.
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And what levels of inclusion of
particular components will actually
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lead to reduce the risks of, say,
obesity or diabetes or heart disease?
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Because we want a diet that is actually,
that actually reduces those risk factors.
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It's also important.
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It's not only making sure that you
eat the right amounts of protein,
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the right amount of energy and
micronutrients, but it's also that risk
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factor element that comes on board.
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Then, you know, we have a group
on the environment, and that group
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really evaluates, well, in different
countries of the world- all these
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ingredients that this diet have, how
can we produce them more sustainably?
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And that is i-i-- with, within something
that we call planetary boundaries.
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The planetary boundaries are basically a
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Targets that we need to,, not
exceed in order to maintain the
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world working in the right way.
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You know, keeping the biosphere active,
ensuring that we have water flows,
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ensuring that the oceans don't end up
with a lot of acidification and the likes.
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So we have the diet.
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We need to produce it in line with
the planetary boundaries, leaving
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no one behind, which means for all.
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You know, for the rich, for the poor.
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Accepting all the cultural differences
that we have in our eating patterns,
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ensuring that the diet is affordable
And ensuring that those who produce
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it have rights and can actually make
a good living from what they're doing.
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Then there's the issue
of food loss and waste.
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We need to actually deal a lot
with food loss and waste, and try
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to find alternatives for reducing
food loss and waste From production
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all the way to the consumer.
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Believe it or not, we waste about 35
to 40% of the food that we produce.
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In low-income countries, it's
mostly at the farm level,
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it's practices, it's storage.
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And in rich countries, it's
mostly poi- post-consumer waste.
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So it's that piece of chicken that you
didn't eat because you decided to go out
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that night with your friends, and then the
next day you come and you see that little
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piece of chicken, and then you realize
that it doesn't look as great as two days
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before, and then you chuck it in the bin.
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And that's the kind of, That
generates a lot, a lot of waste.
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And sell-by dates.
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Sell-by dates- Mm … in
supermarkets and things like that.
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So we need to deal with all
these aspects at the same time.
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Then we have also a big component
trying to model or quantify this
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difference and trying to find,
well, what are the solutions?
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How, how can we do this?
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And then what are the kinds of options?
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Is circularity one of them?
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Is a regenerative agriculture another?
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Is better packaging?
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food processing could it
yield less waste, for example?
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Uh, could we increase sell-by dates?
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What are the kinds of policies that we
need to do to support these changes and
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incentivize everybody to produce the right
kinds of foods at the right cost as well?
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So we study all this complexity together,
and then, you know, advise governments,
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advise, big international agencies.
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And it's, it's super interesting
because, for example, take Brazil.
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Brazil adopted the EAT-Lancet diet for all
the schools, and they're producing this
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diet from small and medium-sized farms.
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That is 50 million kids fed
every day in schools using-
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That's a lot
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…
the EAT-Lancet diet.
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That's a lot.
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Mexico is on the way of implementing
the EAT-Lancet diet in their schools.
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New York City, a million school
meals based on the EAT-Lancet diet.
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So- It's not insignificant.
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Of course, you know, these are examples
in specific places, but we need to
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really transform the food system so
that we mainstream all these concepts.
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We mainstream that, we mainstream
good food is good health.
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And yes, we know what we typically
get told is it needs to be convenient,
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it needs to taste delicious.
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You know?
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Yeah,
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I know that there's only so many
ways that you can eat kale, for
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example, or things like that.
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I love it, but you know,
it's not for everybody.
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Or convenience, you know, beans
are fantastic, but if you have to
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boil them for a couple of hours,
you know, it's not that easy for,
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for say, an urban consumer to…
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that is all rushed and everything, to
just go and pick the right choices.
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We need to make those choices available.
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And for that, companies need incentives
that, to produce that as well.
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Valerie Kilders: So with all
of these complexities, right?
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Like you touched on so many different
challenges that are coming together
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that are creating this, well,
ball of yarn where you probably
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don't even know where to start.
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Mario Herrero: Yeah
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Valerie Kilders: How do you
approach that challenge?
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Like from a practical component.
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Mario Herrero: With difficulty.
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That's probably the right answer.
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No.
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But well, engaging actors.
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Engaging actors, and really understanding
what their needs are, what the
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complexities of local food systems are.
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Because, you know, this is a … You
can call it a, a grand global idea.
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But ultimately, it needs to be
implemented at a truly local level.
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And it's really working with
the actors of the food system
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to really make these plans.
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Building these coalitions that, you know,
need to encompass from the policymaker,
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the farmer, the café owner, , the
different producers of different things.
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Eh, and you know, we need their
views, their values their ideas of
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how the future looks like, and what
would they be prepared to do together
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to create the changes that we need.
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I think that that's absolutely
essential because, you know, it's
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not … This is not about one, one
person's vision, or this is not
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about the vision of the companies.
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No.
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This is a societal issue, and this
is about really, ensuring that
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people eat good food, that they
want good food, and having a system
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that actually can transform itself
to really produce, eh, the food
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according to, the best guidelines and
sustainability guidelines that we have.
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So yeah, and you know,
it's little by little.
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That's the other part of
the question, you know.
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It's like these individual examples.
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We need … We're building this,
eh, food systems transformation
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with little stories of success
in different parts of the world.
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And believe me, there's a lot of change,
positive change already happening at
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around the world in all these spaces.
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We need to celebrate more this, with
these little wins, rather than always
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complaining that, things are not
happening at the pace that, that we want.
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And, you know, and both of you are
really the key drivers of change of
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this fundamental transformation because
it's really youth who will actually
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have to bear the costs and, and
implement this great transformation.
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And it starts, by with good education,
a good change of eating habits, a real
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understanding of, you know, what happens
if, if we only eat junk food, for example.
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I mean, we see the consequences here
in the US, for example, in terms of
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the, in terms of the health bill.
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We're talking about, about
$4.5 trillion a year.
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That's the health bill, and 80%
of that has a dietary component.
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We need early education, from tiny
kids eating good food, getting used
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to eating fruits, vegetables, less
ultra-processed foods, and then really
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understanding what these consequences
are, and then building the, Lego.
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The Lego, yeah.
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That's what we need.
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Little blocks, everybody
doing what they need to do.
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Kailee Cooper: Well, speaking of
celebrating, we can, uh, kinda
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celebrate on the podcast today maybe.
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Do you have any, like, stories that have
been some of those changes you've seen or
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something that kinda stuck out to you that
may be a little more than the others, or
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something that you're just super proud of?
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Mario Herrero: Well, you know, the
Brazil example, I love it because
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a lot of people tend to say, "Oh,
well, but that's difficult to scale."
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Well, you know, we are Brazil.
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That's a good example of success,
and which shows that, you know, with
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the right incentives and government
support and alignment with the private
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industry, you can really make this happen
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Kailee Cooper: I guess going off of
that, do you have any, I don't know,
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say, challenges that you've seen that
kind of were a struggle to get past or
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think about in that aspect that you've
thought about through the process?
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Mario Herrero: Oh, I have many, you know.
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Mm-hmm.
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You have no idea how many challenges
we've studied, and it's, it's really
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difficult, you know, because there's,
there's a huge political economy
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on transforming the food system.
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There's obviously very large and powerful
companies that are doing great with the
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status quo, so why would they change?
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So creating change where you
have a lot of lobbying, a lot of
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power, a lot of consolidation.
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There's too few companies handling
everything related to food in the world.
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And, you know, we need to make sure
that, that consumers also, uh, really
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stipulate and say what they want.
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Uh, and that we actually provide
the scientific evidence on
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the changes that are needed.
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For example, I would love some of
the big companies that do a lot of
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the ultra-processed foods to start
changing their project portfolio, start
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including options that are actually
healthier and more sustainable.
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Let's do things… Let's
start with large factories.
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You know, let's feed, the workforce.
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I- imagine a car plant.
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Imagine a, you know, big places
that have a lot of people.
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Uh, or hospitals or, we mentioned
schools, university canteens.
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There's a lot of people eating
there, and we could actually start by
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changing menus in many of those places.
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And, you know, we start a meal a day.
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And if it's lunch, well,
it's at least something if…
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But at least you didn't eat the same,
breakfast, lunch, and dinner, but I
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think that there's many ways in which
we could actually put bundles of
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solutions to work to solve this problem.
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Valerie Kilders: Is there a specific
area that you would say where we
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don't just yet have the answers?
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So maybe something that's understudied
yet, but where you see a lot
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of potential in terms of future
improvements for sustainability.
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Mario Herrero: Yeah.
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I think that we don't know well how
to repurpose subsidies, for example.
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At the moment, subsidies
go to produce kilocalories.
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It's usually very large producers.
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But if we need to produce more fruits
and vegetables, well, how do we do that?
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And how do we create the value chains?
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How do we create the, all the associated
products that need to be produced?
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And how… Will we need some subsidies
initially just to ensure that they're
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affordable, those products, until
we actually kickstart the production
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at a high level, as an example.
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That's one thing.
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We don't know the right policy cues
to curb consumption of certain things.
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How do we make people eat less
of a certain product they,
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I don't know, beef or sugar.
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How do we make people eat less
of that when in the world, unless
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we've had wars where we've had
rationing voluntarily, we've never
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had to deal with overconsumption
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It's a lot easier if you have
undernutrition because you
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know you're on the way up.
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You need to consume more,
and so it's a lot easier.
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But once you've overshoot the…
Once you've overshot the consumption,
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then how do we bring everything back?
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And this is where the, where the
health aspects really come in place.
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If people have had a better knowledge
of the risks of overconsuming and
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the risks of obesity well, maybe they
will start doing something different.
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Or if the insurance premiums were
different or, you know, there's many
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ways in which this could be approached
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Kailee Cooper: So you kind of talked
about how the youth are part of where
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this starts, just because we gotta
start young and start building on that.
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Is there any advice that you would give
maybe an undergraduate student or somebody
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who's looking to study the impacts on
agriculture and/or food sustainability?
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Mario Herrero: Come to see me.
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No.
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No, no.
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But there's lots of ways of engaging in
research and initiatives around this.
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You know, we even at the EAT-Lancet
Commission have, uh, youth programs.
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We want to include youth, and we're
going to have in the forthcoming
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assessment, we want to include
more people, more, more students
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involved in the report, et cetera.
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I mean, that sounds small,
but it's, planting a seed.
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Planting a seed.
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The same, we need to have more food
systems courses at universities
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extension departments and others.
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I think that we just need, to
get the evidence out in different
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ways for different people,
different consumers, et cetera
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Kailee Cooper: Before we finish up I
guess I'll ask is there really anything
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else that you wanna tell our listeners
before we get finish up here, or anything
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else you didn't get to say you wanna say?
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Mario Herrero: Yeah.
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I would like to say that, you
know, the transformation is you.
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The transformation is not waiting
for somebody to do something.
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We start with small steps, and each
of us is part of the transformation.
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So do it.
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Eat better one meal a day.
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Valerie Kilders: Wonderful.
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This was so insightful.
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I've, I really enjoyed listening to you
and hearing how you take that big picture
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and break it down into its components.
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That was, I think, very helpful for
our listeners, and as a host of this
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podcast, I certainly enjoyed it.
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Kailee Cooper: Well, thank you so
much for coming on the podcast today.
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You have been so insightful to hear from,
and we're so glad you came and spent a
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little bit of your time at Purdue with us
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Mario Herrero: Thank you
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Kailee Cooper: You have been listening to
the Purdue Agriculture Economics Podcast.
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You can find us on Spotify,
Apple Podcasts, and Podbean.
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Have a good day
