Burnout Recovery for Working Moms: Why Hustle Fails

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Hello everyone. I want to just give a
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very big welcome to today's guest,
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Jessica Lattiv. She is the founder of
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Not Working in Tech, a platform and
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community challenging toxic workplace
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culture and the myth that burnout is
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just part of success in the tech
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industry. As a Jewish and Lebanese
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American woman with ADHD, raised in an
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exceptionally diverse New York City
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suburb, she's always been an outsider,
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observing, analyzing, questioning, and
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pattern matching the world around her.
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And you hold a MS in nutrition and
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public policy, which is very uh diverse.
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So, I love that. and she has run her own
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sustainable seafood business, building a
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10 plus year in tech before building her
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career in tech. Today, she works with
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individuals and organizations to
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pinpoint and resolve what's not working
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and to reimagine healthier, more human
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ways to show up at work. Thank you so
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much for being here, joining us.
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Welcome.
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>> Thank you. Thanks so much for having me.
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>> Yeah. You describe yourself as someone
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who's always been a bit of an outsider
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and I'm really curious about that is as
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a therapist and a coach and someone who
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does parts work. I don't know if
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internal family system
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>> I do I'm very familiar.
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>> How does she what does where did she get
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this? Not that I'm questioning your
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system and how feels but when did you
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first notice that you saw things
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differently than the people around you?
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>> Yeah. I would say as somebody who grew
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up in an interfaith family, I was always
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aware that even within me, the two sides
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of my family were very different. My
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dad's side of the family, my dad was
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raised Catholic and they came to the US
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from Lebanon. My mom's side of the
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family is Jewish and and so we
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celebrated different holidays with
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different sides of our family. There was
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always a narrative around my parents
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meeting and like courtship that one side
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of the family was a little bit less
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accepting and one side of the family was
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more accepting. And as a young kid, when
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you hear those kinds of stories, it just
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makes you question and wonder, right?
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Why would anyone be less or more
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accepting? What did they or didn't they
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accept? And do I have those same
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qualities in me? Right? Does my does
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this side of my family accept this other
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part of me and why or why not?
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>> So, was there controversy when your
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parents got together and planned to get
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married? There was. Yeah, there was. I
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would say from my dad's side of the
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family, they were they were very
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welcoming to my mom. from the Jewish
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side of the family. My Jewish
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grandparents really wanted their
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daughter to marry somebody Jewish and
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carrying a legacy of persecution and
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feeling like your culture and your
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people have been endangered. It's a
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strong value for Jewish families to be
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able to carry on Jewish traditions. So,
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as an adult, I totally understand that
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desire, but as a kid, it was confusing.
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>> Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely.
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>> Yeah. And you were growing up in a
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really diverse area of New York,
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>> New Jersey, but right outside the city.
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Okay.
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>> New Yorkers are quick to correct. So,
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>> okay. Sorry. New Jersey.
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>> That's all good.
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>> How did that shape and how did it shape
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how you read a room now and or a
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workplace?
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>> Yeah, that's a good question. I would
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say because I grew up someplace where
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there were so many different kinds of
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people. My neighbors spoke many
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languages. My classmates, parents or
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classmates themselves moved to our town
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from different countries or different
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regions.
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>> I'm very comfortable navigating diverse
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cultural environments. That feels like
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home to me.
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>> And so I've noticed that I'm somebody
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who doesn't love when everyone is the
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same. I don't love when everyone looks
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the same, talks the same, has the same
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beliefs. That's very uncomfortable to
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me. And I describe myself as an outsider
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because even within me, there are these
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multiple parts, right? And so I've never
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been somebody who except within my
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family where we do have some of the
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similar multicultural intermarages and
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things like outside of my own family,
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I'm different from others. And so even
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in places where everyone is Jewish or
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everyone is Middle Eastern, I'm still a
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little different.
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>> Yeah. Yeah. And that does absolutely
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shapes how you see every environment
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you're in. So I grew up in the opposite.
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I grew up in a very small town in
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northeast Missouri that was all one
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culture. Very much different religions,
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but different denominations. So there
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were Catholics and Protestants and
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Baptists. And it's interesting because I
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never felt like I belonged or fit in
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there. And so when I left, I was like,
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"Oh,
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this feels comfortable." I moved of St.
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Louis around Washington University. So
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it was very diverse. And I remember
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being so happy and excited. My son go to
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school and he's, "Oh, can you make sushi
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for my lunchbox?" And I was like,
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"What?"
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>> Like, "Well,
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>> such and such gets sushi in their
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lunchbox." And I was like, "They do? Oh
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my god, someone does that." But I
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remember thinking, "How cool." Because
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he was growing up in this really diverse
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and also a really intellectual community
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just full of professors from around the
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world's kids because of where we landed.
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That was the school he was in. And I was
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like, "This is amazing. This feels
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good." Yeah, it definitely your comfort
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can come in many ways. I think I grew up
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uncomfortable
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in my community. So now diversity feels
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better. But very cool that you got to
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grow up in an area where there were
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people speaking every possible language
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and you also had access to New York
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City, like easy access, I'm assuming,
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which is
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>> Yes.
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>> Also,
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>> yeah, I feel very lucky. As a kid, I
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didn't love living in the suburbs,
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especially proximity to New York. I
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wanted to be in the city.
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>> Um, and looking back as an adult and as
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a parent, I feel so grateful for where I
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grew up because there was both the
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diversity and culture that comes with
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being in a big in a big metro area, but
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also it's a very safe, protected
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environment to grow up in.
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>> And you could do some normal kid things
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for sure.
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>> Oh, yeah. We rode our bikes to different
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neighbors houses and went to the park
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and walked home from school together
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through our downtown and just feel very
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lucky that we had the best pizza,
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bagels, sushi, Greek food, Korean food.
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I'm pretty spoiled in that respect. And
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I think that's one of the reasons why as
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an adult, too, I'm really drawn to
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places where there's access to all kinds
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of culture, food, art, that kind of
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stuff.
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Yes, that's amazing. Yeah, you couldn't
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live any place without that now. It
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would be impossible,
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>> unfortunately.
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>> Yes, we were always surprised. St. Louis
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had a lot of culture and food in the
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area we were in. And then we moved to
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Florida. And when we moved here, which
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was in 2011, we're in St. Petersburg,
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Florida. I was like, I need to go back.
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Like, this I can't do this. There's
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there isn't good pizza. There's nothing.
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There's no Indian food. My ex-husband
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was Indian like but fortunately this
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community has grown and become much more
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multicultural and the restaurants and
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the art came in. So it's a very little
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city in Florida than a lot of the area
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area other parts of Florida. So it
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evolved with us and
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>> yeah I've been to St. Petersburg. It's a
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beautiful city. The Dolly Museum and all
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the beaches. It's great.
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>> Yes. Yes. We love it. We feel like it's
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a little gym,
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>> but my daughter wants to come to New
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York or New Jersey for school in Okay.
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Graduate. So, we're actually heading up
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at the end of the summer
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>> to tour some schools in the city
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>> and in New Jersey. So,
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>> that's exciting.
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>> Yes. Speaking of school, so you I'm
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curious about your masters in nutrition
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and public policy that got you to where
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you are now.
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>> Yeah. So as an undergraduate I studied
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nutrition as well, nutrition and
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dietetics and I was lucky to get a lot
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of exposure to food and cuisine through
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some of the electives that I was able to
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take. After college I went and worked on
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some farms in France and I decided I
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before that I was really interested in
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ways to make a positive impact. And as
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an undergrad, I had worked in a hospital
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in a clinical setting and quickly
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realized that the hospital style
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intervention where you're working with
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people who are already ill in many cases
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and maybe who are towards the middle or
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end of their lives, they already really
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have their habits ingrained.
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>> But working with younger people or
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working in a policy setting, you have
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the ability to make a positive impact on
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a much broader scale. And so I was
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really interested in food policy and
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nutrition policy. And that motivated me
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to to apply for graduate programs that
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were in that field. And I just thought
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to myself, if I didn't get into graduate
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school, maybe I'll just stay in Europe.
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But I didn't. I got I got into graduate
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school. I went to graduate school at the
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Tufts Freedman School of Nutrition
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Science and Policy in Boston. Y
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>> and my focus was a small program called
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agriculture, food and environment. And
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it was really this very intersectional
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program that was at the crossroads of
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public policy, public health, farm and
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agriculture, policy and history and
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development and then also human
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nutrition and food systems. So that was
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a really interesting place to be. I went
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in hoping to work with kids and in
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schools helping to develop some of those
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farm-toschool pipelines, school garden
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programs where kids are learning, you
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know, growing and eating food that they
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grew themselves and making things like
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smoothies or muffins or whatever out of
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whole foods that then they could learn,
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hey, this tastes really good and it's
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accessible. It doesn't have to be
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confusing or intimidating. Yeah.
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>> So, that's how you got that's what you
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planned on doing?
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>> That's what I planned on doing. That's
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what brought me out to California. Um,
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I've just was really inspired by some of
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the urban agriculture work that was
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happening here in Oakland and just the
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the Bay Area and Northern California
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being such a hub for local agriculture
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and also really more progressive and
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sustainable agricultural practices. And
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so I was drawn to this area and
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it was just a it was a really tumultuous
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time economically. I graduated from grad
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school a couple years after that world
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economic collapse in 2008. So going into
00:11:48.720 --> 00:11:51.030
graduate school, the landscape looked
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very different than coming out. And the
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jobs that I thought maybe would be
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available and accessible to me ended up
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just not really materializing. My
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partner at the time, who I had met in
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graduate school, and I were both
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cobbling together our living and not
00:12:09.680 --> 00:12:12.710
really finding a full-time job. And we
00:12:12.720 --> 00:12:15.190
had joked, "Oh, we should start like
00:12:15.200 --> 00:12:17.910
this community supported fishery type of
00:12:17.920 --> 00:12:19.910
business that we had been able to access
00:12:19.920 --> 00:12:22.949
in Boston, New England. Even though it's
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a lot older than the development that's
00:12:26.000 --> 00:12:27.750
happened out here in California, there's
00:12:27.760 --> 00:12:29.590
still quite a lot of like small fishing
00:12:29.600 --> 00:12:30.710
towns
00:12:30.720 --> 00:12:33.829
>> out there. And in California, a lot of
00:12:33.839 --> 00:12:36.710
the conservation policy actually led to
00:12:36.720 --> 00:12:39.030
consolidation in the seafood industry
00:12:39.040 --> 00:12:40.710
because it's a burden for small
00:12:40.720 --> 00:12:44.389
businesses to follow stringent policies.
00:12:44.399 --> 00:12:46.470
And we just didn't find access to the
00:12:46.480 --> 00:12:49.190
local seafood that we knew was here.
00:12:49.200 --> 00:12:51.430
After a couple of years of joking about
00:12:51.440 --> 00:12:53.430
doing it and still just cobbling
00:12:53.440 --> 00:12:55.829
together part-time jobs, we decided to
00:12:55.839 --> 00:12:57.509
strike out on our own and start that
00:12:57.519 --> 00:12:59.990
business ourselves. And and that's what
00:13:00.000 --> 00:13:02.470
we did for a couple of years, but then
00:13:02.480 --> 00:13:05.190
realized number one, we were breaking
00:13:05.200 --> 00:13:06.949
even, but we weren't making a living.
00:13:06.959 --> 00:13:08.389
Neither of us had a background in
00:13:08.399 --> 00:13:10.389
business. We both were coming from the
00:13:10.399 --> 00:13:13.509
public policy and like health or
00:13:13.519 --> 00:13:17.269
conservation worlds. and we realized we
00:13:17.279 --> 00:13:19.910
needed something else to earn a living.
00:13:19.920 --> 00:13:23.269
So, we still kept the business, but then
00:13:23.279 --> 00:13:24.949
I started looking around to see what
00:13:24.959 --> 00:13:28.790
kinds of full-time jobs I might be able
00:13:28.800 --> 00:13:32.949
to leverage my skills to support us. And
00:13:32.959 --> 00:13:35.750
that was 2013. We had a lot of friends
00:13:35.760 --> 00:13:38.069
in the tech industry and there was this
00:13:38.079 --> 00:13:40.949
growing movement of women in tech and
00:13:40.959 --> 00:13:43.110
diversifying the tech industry. So, a
00:13:43.120 --> 00:13:44.949
lot of folks had recommended, hey, look
00:13:44.959 --> 00:13:47.110
in tech. That's there's a ton of hiring
00:13:47.120 --> 00:13:50.470
happening and that was my entry point. I
00:13:50.480 --> 00:13:53.670
just I I did a 10-week programming boot
00:13:53.680 --> 00:13:58.550
camp in San Francisco and learned
00:13:58.560 --> 00:14:02.150
full stack technology basics. I learned
00:14:02.160 --> 00:14:04.230
some web development, some software
00:14:04.240 --> 00:14:07.590
engineering, the terminology, just just
00:14:07.600 --> 00:14:10.230
got access to what that world looked
00:14:10.240 --> 00:14:10.949
like.
00:14:10.959 --> 00:14:13.670
>> Yeah. and and that was how I ended up
00:14:13.680 --> 00:14:15.990
getting my first job in technology and
00:14:16.000 --> 00:14:19.189
ultimately stayed there for over 10
00:14:19.199 --> 00:14:20.150
years.
00:14:20.160 --> 00:14:23.110
>> Wow. I think that many people feel like
00:14:23.120 --> 00:14:26.389
a pressure to follow a straight line and
00:14:26.399 --> 00:14:28.310
once if you've gotten a degree in
00:14:28.320 --> 00:14:29.750
something that better be the thing you
00:14:29.760 --> 00:14:32.150
do, but you really took this kind of
00:14:32.160 --> 00:14:34.310
winding road which it sounds like gave
00:14:34.320 --> 00:14:36.629
you opportunities. What did it what did
00:14:36.639 --> 00:14:38.790
that experience give you that you think
00:14:38.800 --> 00:14:40.949
taking a straighter path wouldn't have?
00:14:40.959 --> 00:14:43.829
Like how did it help?
00:14:43.839 --> 00:14:46.310
>> Yeah, before that, even before going
00:14:46.320 --> 00:14:48.550
back to school, cuz I had left school as
00:14:48.560 --> 00:14:51.509
an undergrad when I was 19 and I already
00:14:51.519 --> 00:14:53.590
was on this winding path.
00:14:53.600 --> 00:14:56.230
>> So, I knew for myself that I just am
00:14:56.240 --> 00:14:58.710
somebody who's very multifaceted.
00:14:58.720 --> 00:15:01.110
>> I'm interested in a lot of things. I'm
00:15:01.120 --> 00:15:03.590
and my my degrees and my education ended
00:15:03.600 --> 00:15:07.030
up being on the STEM and science side,
00:15:07.040 --> 00:15:09.910
but in initially I was really interested
00:15:09.920 --> 00:15:13.590
in liberal arts, drama, theater, poetry.
00:15:13.600 --> 00:15:15.990
I thought I was going to be an artist.
00:15:16.000 --> 00:15:17.990
And so
00:15:18.000 --> 00:15:20.069
that winding career path has really
00:15:20.079 --> 00:15:23.110
allowed me to explore and develop the
00:15:23.120 --> 00:15:25.509
different sides of myself.
00:15:25.519 --> 00:15:28.389
>> Yes. Yes. Yeah. And then you can feel
00:15:28.399 --> 00:15:30.629
more dedicated, more sure of yourself
00:15:30.639 --> 00:15:34.389
when you take each next step.
00:15:34.399 --> 00:15:37.750
>> Yeah. I think I I struggled a lot with
00:15:37.760 --> 00:15:40.870
what is deemed imposttor syndrome. I
00:15:40.880 --> 00:15:42.790
don't love that word because I'm
00:15:42.800 --> 00:15:46.150
somebody who just believes in being
00:15:46.160 --> 00:15:47.829
allowed to be a beginner at something
00:15:47.839 --> 00:15:49.590
and just being allowed to be learning
00:15:49.600 --> 00:15:52.550
and not have it be like a a dysfunction
00:15:52.560 --> 00:15:55.509
or a syndrome, right? But it allowed me
00:15:55.519 --> 00:15:58.230
to recognize and have some perspective
00:15:58.240 --> 00:16:00.790
around, hey, I did this once in this
00:16:00.800 --> 00:16:03.590
industry and I was a beginner and then I
00:16:03.600 --> 00:16:05.990
grew and I developed expertise. I know
00:16:06.000 --> 00:16:07.910
it gave me the confidence to be able to
00:16:07.920 --> 00:16:10.470
do that again multiple times.
00:16:10.480 --> 00:16:11.990
>> That's great. That's great. Yeah.
00:16:12.000 --> 00:16:12.790
>> Yeah. Thank you.
00:16:12.800 --> 00:16:14.629
>> I don't love the word imposter syndrome,
00:16:14.639 --> 00:16:18.870
but I do feel it many times. Felt it
00:16:18.880 --> 00:16:20.310
many times in my life.
00:16:20.320 --> 00:16:22.230
>> Absolutely. I did photography for 5
00:16:22.240 --> 00:16:25.670
years while I was raising my kids and I
00:16:25.680 --> 00:16:27.990
would say I would never call myself a
00:16:28.000 --> 00:16:30.470
photographer and someone who frequently
00:16:30.480 --> 00:16:33.670
hired me to do marketing would say you
00:16:33.680 --> 00:16:35.749
are a photographer and I was like but I
00:16:35.759 --> 00:16:37.110
didn't get go to school for it and she's
00:16:37.120 --> 00:16:39.430
like you're doing incredible work you're
00:16:39.440 --> 00:16:42.230
still a photographer and I was like
00:16:42.240 --> 00:16:44.150
>> yeah that was the first time I was like
00:16:44.160 --> 00:16:48.710
oh yes you're right and I got a JD and
00:16:48.720 --> 00:16:49.990
went to law school and did all the
00:16:50.000 --> 00:16:51.670
things and still felt like an imposttor
00:16:51.680 --> 00:16:55.350
the whole time I practiced. So yeah,
00:16:55.360 --> 00:16:57.990
>> that yes, but the work is around getting
00:16:58.000 --> 00:16:59.990
over that and now I feel like I don't
00:17:00.000 --> 00:17:01.030
have it nearly as much.
00:17:01.040 --> 00:17:03.269
>> And I think especially
00:17:03.279 --> 00:17:06.470
>> being a woman in a professional setting
00:17:06.480 --> 00:17:09.750
like these these environments were not
00:17:09.760 --> 00:17:11.029
built for us
00:17:11.039 --> 00:17:12.949
>> and so there's a way in which you're
00:17:12.959 --> 00:17:15.350
already coming to it as an outsider and
00:17:15.360 --> 00:17:17.029
having to prove yourself a little bit
00:17:17.039 --> 00:17:19.510
more. And that's daunting, right? It's
00:17:19.520 --> 00:17:20.470
hard.
00:17:20.480 --> 00:17:23.829
>> Yes. Yes. I remember being told by the
00:17:23.839 --> 00:17:25.669
law firm that hired me, "We're family
00:17:25.679 --> 00:17:29.029
friendly." And quickly realizing and
00:17:29.039 --> 00:17:32.549
being told, "Family friendly does not
00:17:32.559 --> 00:17:36.230
mean mother friendly." And maybe a
00:17:36.240 --> 00:17:38.470
controversial statement, but
00:17:38.480 --> 00:17:41.669
>> it was true. I was still expected to be
00:17:41.679 --> 00:17:43.990
there before the partner and after the
00:17:44.000 --> 00:17:46.549
part and stay until he was gone, even if
00:17:46.559 --> 00:17:47.830
my kid had a
00:17:47.840 --> 00:17:50.230
>> a soccer game. and I came in at 6:00 in
00:17:50.240 --> 00:17:51.750
the morning. It didn't matter. You don't
00:17:51.760 --> 00:17:53.590
leave until he leaves. You don't make
00:17:53.600 --> 00:17:56.230
the game. And I was like, "Oh, this
00:17:56.240 --> 00:17:59.029
isn't family friendly." Family friendly
00:17:59.039 --> 00:18:01.990
for my family or for me work. And I'm
00:18:02.000 --> 00:18:03.830
curious in the tech industry. So, you
00:18:03.840 --> 00:18:07.270
spent 10 plus years there. What did you
00:18:07.280 --> 00:18:09.830
see there? What was that working in that
00:18:09.840 --> 00:18:12.549
world like?
00:18:12.559 --> 00:18:15.830
Yeah. I think so many things in life.
00:18:15.840 --> 00:18:18.630
It's in one way it's what you make of
00:18:18.640 --> 00:18:21.350
it. Other ways
00:18:21.360 --> 00:18:24.070
it could be treacherous to navigate.
00:18:24.080 --> 00:18:25.510
There were wonderful things about
00:18:25.520 --> 00:18:27.590
working in tech. I was really drawn to
00:18:27.600 --> 00:18:30.390
technology because of how innovative the
00:18:30.400 --> 00:18:32.789
field is. I've always been interested in
00:18:32.799 --> 00:18:34.789
technology. My dad worked in technology
00:18:34.799 --> 00:18:37.750
during the first boom in the early 2000s
00:18:37.760 --> 00:18:39.750
in New York. And that was so cool,
00:18:39.760 --> 00:18:42.310
right? He shared stories of these
00:18:42.320 --> 00:18:43.590
companies that were doing really
00:18:43.600 --> 00:18:45.750
exciting things with their technology,
00:18:45.760 --> 00:18:48.230
but also workplaces that were quite
00:18:48.240 --> 00:18:50.390
progressive compared to other corporate
00:18:50.400 --> 00:18:52.789
environments and even more so in
00:18:52.799 --> 00:18:54.950
California in the 20. You wear whatever
00:18:54.960 --> 00:18:56.710
you want. You bring your whole self to
00:18:56.720 --> 00:18:59.350
work. Those were some mantras that we
00:18:59.360 --> 00:19:02.549
heard coming into the industry. That was
00:19:02.559 --> 00:19:04.390
appealing to me, right? I never had seen
00:19:04.400 --> 00:19:06.470
myself in a corporate environment. So, I
00:19:06.480 --> 00:19:07.750
wasn't somebody that was going to be
00:19:07.760 --> 00:19:10.630
wearing business suits and high heels to
00:19:10.640 --> 00:19:13.270
my job every day. I was like, I need to
00:19:13.280 --> 00:19:14.950
work somewhere where I can wear my cute
00:19:14.960 --> 00:19:18.310
skirts and boots if I want to or jeans
00:19:18.320 --> 00:19:20.789
and a funky concert t-shirt or just to
00:19:20.799 --> 00:19:22.870
be able to be myself. Yeah.
00:19:22.880 --> 00:19:26.549
>> And I think depending on the the company
00:19:26.559 --> 00:19:29.110
and the size of the company, that can be
00:19:29.120 --> 00:19:32.150
possible. But I also think just like any
00:19:32.160 --> 00:19:34.950
corporate environment, corporate tech
00:19:34.960 --> 00:19:38.870
tends to have a level of standardized
00:19:38.880 --> 00:19:43.190
expectations and ways that everyone is
00:19:43.200 --> 00:19:46.230
supposed to show up that can impact
00:19:46.240 --> 00:19:48.950
people in very disperate ways depending
00:19:48.960 --> 00:19:52.950
on how mainstream of a life you've had.
00:19:52.960 --> 00:19:55.669
Right? And so if you're somebody that
00:19:55.679 --> 00:19:57.750
looks like the dominant beauty standard
00:19:57.760 --> 00:19:59.430
and you've always dressed in a way
00:19:59.440 --> 00:20:01.669
that's just business casual, it's going
00:20:01.679 --> 00:20:04.390
to be just superficially a lot easier
00:20:04.400 --> 00:20:06.549
for you to fit in a corporate tech
00:20:06.559 --> 00:20:08.950
environment than if you're somebody who
00:20:08.960 --> 00:20:12.070
hasn't. In in a lot of surface kind of
00:20:12.080 --> 00:20:14.310
ways, the tech industry was a place
00:20:14.320 --> 00:20:16.789
where I thought I could find a modeicum
00:20:16.799 --> 00:20:19.830
of success as somebody non-traditional.
00:20:19.840 --> 00:20:20.070
Yeah.
00:20:20.080 --> 00:20:23.350
>> Um, and then in deeper ways, I really
00:20:23.360 --> 00:20:24.789
didn't know what it was going to be like
00:20:24.799 --> 00:20:26.710
to work in a corporate environment. I'm
00:20:26.720 --> 00:20:29.430
an open-minded person. I'm flexible. I
00:20:29.440 --> 00:20:32.549
was really excited to embark on a new
00:20:32.559 --> 00:20:35.909
career journey. But the reality is in
00:20:35.919 --> 00:20:37.669
corporate environments, especially for
00:20:37.679 --> 00:20:39.750
folks who are neurodeiverse,
00:20:39.760 --> 00:20:43.590
there just is there are these cultural
00:20:43.600 --> 00:20:46.230
unspoken expectations that could be
00:20:46.240 --> 00:20:48.310
really hard to fit. If you're somebody
00:20:48.320 --> 00:20:50.870
that does better when things are like
00:20:50.880 --> 00:20:53.830
spelled out clearly or is a bit of an
00:20:53.840 --> 00:20:56.549
outsider or feels like you feel like
00:20:56.559 --> 00:20:57.750
different.
00:20:57.760 --> 00:21:00.870
>> Yeah. Yeah.
00:21:00.880 --> 00:21:03.029
So
00:21:03.039 --> 00:21:04.630
when you were ready to leave, did you
00:21:04.640 --> 00:21:06.950
recognize that there was some level of
00:21:06.960 --> 00:21:08.470
burnout? I know it's
00:21:08.480 --> 00:21:10.710
>> Absolutely. Oh yeah. Yeah. When I left
00:21:10.720 --> 00:21:14.149
Tech, I was incredibly burned out. I
00:21:14.159 --> 00:21:16.789
and I had taken a number of breaks
00:21:16.799 --> 00:21:19.350
throughout my time in the technology
00:21:19.360 --> 00:21:22.310
industry. I became a mom when I for my
00:21:22.320 --> 00:21:24.230
first tech job. I was hired when I was
00:21:24.240 --> 00:21:26.070
four months pregnant and that was a
00:21:26.080 --> 00:21:28.070
whole journey in and of itself. I was
00:21:28.080 --> 00:21:30.710
the first person at that company in the
00:21:30.720 --> 00:21:33.510
United States to take parental leave.
00:21:33.520 --> 00:21:35.990
And that was it was hard. I was at a
00:21:36.000 --> 00:21:37.990
startup where everyone was like 10 years
00:21:38.000 --> 00:21:41.029
younger than me and I wasn't I was 32
00:21:41.039 --> 00:21:44.070
but everybody was like 22. The only
00:21:44.080 --> 00:21:46.630
people that I worked with who had kids
00:21:46.640 --> 00:21:48.789
were executives and those people had
00:21:48.799 --> 00:21:50.789
nannies and they lived in fancy zip
00:21:50.799 --> 00:21:53.990
codes and that wasn't my life either. I
00:21:54.000 --> 00:21:55.830
was coming to technology from having
00:21:55.840 --> 00:21:58.149
been an entrepreneur in the food world
00:21:58.159 --> 00:22:01.110
where we were barely breaking even. So
00:22:01.120 --> 00:22:03.190
for me, putting my bills on autopay and
00:22:03.200 --> 00:22:05.110
having a salary for the first time was
00:22:05.120 --> 00:22:06.549
like huge.
00:22:06.559 --> 00:22:09.029
>> Um, and it's tough to be the first of
00:22:09.039 --> 00:22:10.789
something, right? It's just
00:22:10.799 --> 00:22:12.950
>> in in some ways I'm used to being a
00:22:12.960 --> 00:22:15.990
trailblazer for myself and in other ways
00:22:16.000 --> 00:22:18.710
I really wished that there were other
00:22:18.720 --> 00:22:21.190
moms that were there to help me
00:22:21.200 --> 00:22:24.230
understand what it was going to be like.
00:22:24.240 --> 00:22:26.390
Really tough. So yeah, I took a number
00:22:26.400 --> 00:22:28.230
of break. I took parental leave. I took
00:22:28.240 --> 00:22:30.870
a number of breaks over the course of my
00:22:30.880 --> 00:22:33.669
tech career. I have my older child is
00:22:33.679 --> 00:22:37.029
autistic and so that journey of learning
00:22:37.039 --> 00:22:39.430
to parent a neurode divergent kid,
00:22:39.440 --> 00:22:41.350
learning to figure out what kinds of
00:22:41.360 --> 00:22:44.710
supports he needed and how to attune
00:22:44.720 --> 00:22:47.750
with him and support his development was
00:22:47.760 --> 00:22:49.990
a winding path as well. And there were
00:22:50.000 --> 00:22:52.630
definitely times when I had to pump the
00:22:52.640 --> 00:22:55.830
brakes at work and say, "The demands of
00:22:55.840 --> 00:22:57.990
constantly being on at a tech job are
00:22:58.000 --> 00:23:00.630
too much for for me to meet right now
00:23:00.640 --> 00:23:02.470
while I'm also trying to balance the
00:23:02.480 --> 00:23:05.110
demands of what my child needs." So that
00:23:05.120 --> 00:23:08.710
was part of it. And then also just
00:23:08.720 --> 00:23:11.270
working in a place where the demands of
00:23:11.280 --> 00:23:14.470
working someplace where it can be very
00:23:14.480 --> 00:23:18.630
chaotic. And my last the last role that
00:23:18.640 --> 00:23:22.630
I had in the technology world was as a a
00:23:22.640 --> 00:23:25.270
senior engineering manager, which I was
00:23:25.280 --> 00:23:27.350
really excited that I got to the top of
00:23:27.360 --> 00:23:28.950
this
00:23:28.960 --> 00:23:31.190
mountain that when I started out in
00:23:31.200 --> 00:23:33.669
tech, like being an engineer or being an
00:23:33.679 --> 00:23:36.310
engineering manager is like the top of
00:23:36.320 --> 00:23:37.029
the pyramid.
00:23:37.039 --> 00:23:39.190
>> A senior engineer.
00:23:39.200 --> 00:23:41.430
>> Yeah. Uh, and so I was very proud of
00:23:41.440 --> 00:23:43.909
myself that I had gotten myself to that
00:23:43.919 --> 00:23:46.950
place, but the environment that I was in
00:23:46.960 --> 00:23:49.350
was just incredibly chaotic. There was
00:23:49.360 --> 00:23:52.149
really not a lot of leadership. The
00:23:52.159 --> 00:23:55.270
person that hired me quit 5 days after I
00:23:55.280 --> 00:23:57.510
started, having told me, "I'm so excited
00:23:57.520 --> 00:23:59.350
to train you as an engineering manager."
00:23:59.360 --> 00:24:01.270
And then they were like, "Peace, I got a
00:24:01.280 --> 00:24:03.190
new job." So
00:24:03.200 --> 00:24:05.669
>> that was a red flag. You basically lied
00:24:05.679 --> 00:24:07.750
to my face cuz you were interviewing the
00:24:07.760 --> 00:24:09.510
whole time. You were telling me that you
00:24:09.520 --> 00:24:11.350
were excited to hire me.
00:24:11.360 --> 00:24:12.070
>> Yeah.
00:24:12.080 --> 00:24:15.190
>> Um and then it was just tough. It was a
00:24:15.200 --> 00:24:19.510
tough environment. It was a tough team.
00:24:19.520 --> 00:24:21.510
It was infrastructure engineering which
00:24:21.520 --> 00:24:24.149
is a pretty esoteric type of engineering
00:24:24.159 --> 00:24:26.789
especially for folks who are not
00:24:26.799 --> 00:24:29.909
classically trained in computer software
00:24:29.919 --> 00:24:32.870
and it was not a diverse workplace and
00:24:32.880 --> 00:24:34.710
that was a a kind of a shock to my
00:24:34.720 --> 00:24:36.950
system. I had come from an operations
00:24:36.960 --> 00:24:39.590
team that we had grown over the course
00:24:39.600 --> 00:24:41.510
of about five years to be an incredibly
00:24:41.520 --> 00:24:45.110
diverse team. And my new job had told
00:24:45.120 --> 00:24:46.870
me, "Oh, we're excited about your
00:24:46.880 --> 00:24:49.350
experience in building diverse teams."
00:24:49.360 --> 00:24:51.110
But when I joined the company, I found
00:24:51.120 --> 00:24:54.070
out that a lot of the the ways the
00:24:54.080 --> 00:24:56.870
company operated and the status quo kind
00:24:56.880 --> 00:25:00.870
of kept reinforcing
00:25:00.880 --> 00:25:03.110
just hiring the same kinds of people
00:25:03.120 --> 00:25:04.950
over and over. Right? So, if I had an
00:25:04.960 --> 00:25:08.230
open headcount on my team, I had five
00:25:08.240 --> 00:25:10.310
white guys in my DMs going, "Hey, I've
00:25:10.320 --> 00:25:12.149
got a buddy who would love to apply for
00:25:12.159 --> 00:25:14.950
this job." And I was like, "Okay,
00:25:14.960 --> 00:25:17.029
thanks. Also, I'm trying to build a
00:25:17.039 --> 00:25:19.830
diverse pipeline here of talented
00:25:19.840 --> 00:25:22.149
candidates who may not look like the
00:25:22.159 --> 00:25:24.470
people we already have here, but who are
00:25:24.480 --> 00:25:26.149
really interested in building a career
00:25:26.159 --> 00:25:27.830
in infrastructure engineering, right?
00:25:27.840 --> 00:25:29.350
Not just like your buddy who wants to
00:25:29.360 --> 00:25:31.430
dip a toe in something new." And that
00:25:31.440 --> 00:25:33.269
was very disenchanting.
00:25:33.279 --> 00:25:35.750
Um, and then I had a few experiences of
00:25:35.760 --> 00:25:38.470
just pretty intense observing
00:25:38.480 --> 00:25:41.110
discrimination and observing the ways in
00:25:41.120 --> 00:25:44.630
which this I would say pretty regressive
00:25:44.640 --> 00:25:47.430
attitude was very entrenched around me
00:25:47.440 --> 00:25:50.070
and I didn't feel supported over time. I
00:25:50.080 --> 00:25:52.630
had moments where my manager changed and
00:25:52.640 --> 00:25:54.549
it was someone supportive, but then they
00:25:54.559 --> 00:25:56.470
went on maternity leave and I got put
00:25:56.480 --> 00:26:00.230
with somebody new who was questioning my
00:26:00.240 --> 00:26:03.430
my qualifications of being there.
00:26:03.440 --> 00:26:05.750
So it that all really takes a toll on
00:26:05.760 --> 00:26:10.149
you. And I left that job having had a
00:26:10.159 --> 00:26:11.830
series of illnesses. I just couldn't
00:26:11.840 --> 00:26:14.710
recover. I kept I got the flu and then I
00:26:14.720 --> 00:26:16.789
got a cold and then on top of the cold I
00:26:16.799 --> 00:26:19.110
got a sinus infection. It was like one
00:26:19.120 --> 00:26:20.549
thing after another.
00:26:20.559 --> 00:26:21.750
>> Yeah.
00:26:21.760 --> 00:26:24.710
And it culminated in returning from an
00:26:24.720 --> 00:26:28.070
unexpected work trip to a performance
00:26:28.080 --> 00:26:30.310
plan from a newer manager who had been a
00:26:30.320 --> 00:26:33.269
peer that I trusted. And I had not
00:26:33.279 --> 00:26:35.909
received critical feedback in my role
00:26:35.919 --> 00:26:38.230
when I got a performance review a couple
00:26:38.240 --> 00:26:39.909
months before that. So it was a real
00:26:39.919 --> 00:26:42.950
shock. And as somebody in leadership, it
00:26:42.960 --> 00:26:45.029
shouldn't be a shock. If you when you
00:26:45.039 --> 00:26:46.630
have to coach someone on their
00:26:46.640 --> 00:26:48.310
performance,
00:26:48.320 --> 00:26:50.230
they should see it coming. they should
00:26:50.240 --> 00:26:53.110
be able to recognize, hey, my manager
00:26:53.120 --> 00:26:54.789
has been talking to me about some ways
00:26:54.799 --> 00:26:57.269
that I really need to improve. Uh, and
00:26:57.279 --> 00:26:59.909
so with that, between the illnesses and
00:26:59.919 --> 00:27:01.909
the performance management, I was like,
00:27:01.919 --> 00:27:03.190
you know what, I'm going to take some
00:27:03.200 --> 00:27:05.110
medical leave. And that's what I did.
00:27:05.120 --> 00:27:07.350
And I took a several months leave and
00:27:07.360 --> 00:27:09.510
then I didn't return.
00:27:09.520 --> 00:27:12.630
>> Wow. Wow. It sounds like that was a a
00:27:12.640 --> 00:27:15.750
way out of a difficult situation.
00:27:15.760 --> 00:27:18.070
Why do you think or how long do you
00:27:18.080 --> 00:27:21.590
think you were
00:27:21.600 --> 00:27:24.950
feeling unwell and ignoring the signs of
00:27:24.960 --> 00:27:30.789
burnout before you actually left?
00:27:30.799 --> 00:27:33.269
It's hard to say
00:27:33.279 --> 00:27:35.350
because
00:27:35.360 --> 00:27:39.590
I would say in tech and in these really
00:27:39.600 --> 00:27:41.590
high demanding jobs in general,
00:27:41.600 --> 00:27:43.430
especially corporate environments, it
00:27:43.440 --> 00:27:46.070
can be really up and down. You have you
00:27:46.080 --> 00:27:51.269
can have three, six, nine months of
00:27:51.279 --> 00:27:53.510
high output, high performance moments
00:27:53.520 --> 00:27:55.990
that feel really good and then something
00:27:56.000 --> 00:27:58.549
can shift. Maybe it's a reorg manager
00:27:58.559 --> 00:28:01.830
change or your team changes or your work
00:28:01.840 --> 00:28:04.549
portfolio changes and
00:28:04.559 --> 00:28:08.070
>> suddenly the high output high
00:28:08.080 --> 00:28:10.070
productivity that you were able to
00:28:10.080 --> 00:28:13.190
sustain feels completely unsustainable.
00:28:13.200 --> 00:28:13.510
>> Yeah.
00:28:13.520 --> 00:28:16.310
>> Or a health issue pops up for people or
00:28:16.320 --> 00:28:18.870
you're having another child or things
00:28:18.880 --> 00:28:21.029
shift. Things can h change really
00:28:21.039 --> 00:28:23.669
quickly in life. We've all been there,
00:28:23.679 --> 00:28:27.430
right? Yep. So I would say
00:28:27.440 --> 00:28:31.110
I was feeling lowgrade burnout for
00:28:31.120 --> 00:28:34.710
years. On top of this high demand, high
00:28:34.720 --> 00:28:36.950
pressure job, I was a sole provider for
00:28:36.960 --> 00:28:40.950
my family in the Bay Area. I my husband
00:28:40.960 --> 00:28:43.990
at the time wasn't working and that was
00:28:44.000 --> 00:28:47.669
really stressful for me. I
00:28:47.679 --> 00:28:50.230
repeatedly had the conversation that I
00:28:50.240 --> 00:28:52.070
can't do it alone.
00:28:52.080 --> 00:28:55.830
>> But things didn't change. So, on top of
00:28:55.840 --> 00:28:58.789
shifting work demands, growing kids, I
00:28:58.799 --> 00:29:00.389
also was going through a divorce in
00:29:00.399 --> 00:29:01.990
2021.
00:29:02.000 --> 00:29:03.590
And
00:29:03.600 --> 00:29:05.510
depending on what moment of your divorce
00:29:05.520 --> 00:29:07.590
you're in, it can feel really freeing
00:29:07.600 --> 00:29:09.590
and empowering, but it can also be
00:29:09.600 --> 00:29:11.990
incredibly emotionally draining.
00:29:12.000 --> 00:29:14.149
Absolutely. For you and for your
00:29:14.159 --> 00:29:15.190
children.
00:29:15.200 --> 00:29:15.669
>> Yes.
00:29:15.679 --> 00:29:18.389
>> It's a transition regardless. And it's a
00:29:18.399 --> 00:29:19.830
almost always
00:29:19.840 --> 00:29:22.549
>> the process itself is just so difficult.
00:29:22.559 --> 00:29:25.350
we have figured out how to make it
00:29:25.360 --> 00:29:27.269
healthy. There's no way. There's just no
00:29:27.279 --> 00:29:28.870
way right now. Um
00:29:28.880 --> 00:29:30.710
>> Yeah. And it's it is something I would
00:29:30.720 --> 00:29:32.950
say that you feel like you have to hide,
00:29:32.960 --> 00:29:35.110
right? Like so many other parts of the
00:29:35.120 --> 00:29:36.950
corporate world like when you're in an
00:29:36.960 --> 00:29:38.950
environment where everyone is pretty
00:29:38.960 --> 00:29:40.310
conforming. Y
00:29:40.320 --> 00:29:42.789
>> like everyone's married and everyone's
00:29:42.799 --> 00:29:44.470
talking about, oh my husband does this,
00:29:44.480 --> 00:29:47.590
my wife does this. And I'm like
00:29:47.600 --> 00:29:49.110
I'm doing it alone.
00:29:49.120 --> 00:29:50.310
>> I'm alone. Yeah.
00:29:50.320 --> 00:29:51.669
>> Right.
00:29:51.679 --> 00:29:55.750
Uh um I heard this really interesting
00:29:55.760 --> 00:29:57.750
thing and it's techreated and it's
00:29:57.760 --> 00:29:59.669
corporate related so maybe you'll have
00:29:59.679 --> 00:30:01.830
one about it. Yesterday I was reading a
00:30:01.840 --> 00:30:03.590
head a headline and then I read the
00:30:03.600 --> 00:30:07.430
article about a woman who
00:30:07.440 --> 00:30:09.110
they're given I can't remember the name
00:30:09.120 --> 00:30:11.350
of the app but they're given talk space
00:30:11.360 --> 00:30:14.950
maybe through the corporation
00:30:14.960 --> 00:30:19.909
and she used it as her mental health
00:30:19.919 --> 00:30:23.269
outlet and I believe it was trained to
00:30:23.279 --> 00:30:28.149
be like mental health support it and she
00:30:28.159 --> 00:30:30.710
got it through her workplace. place and
00:30:30.720 --> 00:30:33.190
they had access to it. It wasn't
00:30:33.200 --> 00:30:36.789
considered therapy notes and so this is
00:30:36.799 --> 00:30:38.950
probably going to be a new thing and she
00:30:38.960 --> 00:30:43.190
was let go based on something she shared
00:30:43.200 --> 00:30:46.870
in that space and I thought oh my god as
00:30:46.880 --> 00:30:49.190
a former lawyer and a person advising
00:30:49.200 --> 00:30:52.310
people going through divorce I'm already
00:30:52.320 --> 00:30:53.830
saying
00:30:53.840 --> 00:30:57.029
>> what you put into chat GPT and Claude
00:30:57.039 --> 00:30:59.990
can be used against you. So, please be
00:31:00.000 --> 00:31:03.269
careful. Those are not confidential
00:31:03.279 --> 00:31:07.909
places. Anything you put in there um
00:31:07.919 --> 00:31:09.830
could be used against you in family
00:31:09.840 --> 00:31:12.310
court. But now we're talking about
00:31:12.320 --> 00:31:16.950
people being let go or having employers
00:31:16.960 --> 00:31:20.389
use your mental health tools that they
00:31:20.399 --> 00:31:22.149
provide you
00:31:22.159 --> 00:31:22.470
>> Yeah.
00:31:22.480 --> 00:31:24.950
>> to get rid of you. And I thought, "Oh my
00:31:24.960 --> 00:31:27.269
god." What are your thoughts on that?
00:31:27.279 --> 00:31:29.750
Yeah. that story.
00:31:29.760 --> 00:31:31.510
>> First of all, my heart really goes out
00:31:31.520 --> 00:31:33.909
to that person. How what an awful
00:31:33.919 --> 00:31:37.269
experience to feel like you have an
00:31:37.279 --> 00:31:39.750
outlet where you can put your hard
00:31:39.760 --> 00:31:41.990
feelings and talk about the hard [ __ ]
00:31:42.000 --> 00:31:43.590
that you're going through in your life
00:31:43.600 --> 00:31:45.509
and then to have that weaponized against
00:31:45.519 --> 00:31:47.830
you. That's traumatic and it's going to
00:31:47.840 --> 00:31:50.950
those things stay with you and it takes
00:31:50.960 --> 00:31:53.590
a lot to get past that and to heal and
00:31:53.600 --> 00:31:57.110
to to trust a workplace again. So my
00:31:57.120 --> 00:32:00.870
heart goes out to
00:32:00.880 --> 00:32:04.070
remind me a lot of the way companies
00:32:04.080 --> 00:32:05.669
would tell you, "Oh, if you're going
00:32:05.679 --> 00:32:07.350
through something hard, you can always
00:32:07.360 --> 00:32:10.389
talk to HR. You can always talk to your
00:32:10.399 --> 00:32:12.789
employee resources person. They're there
00:32:12.799 --> 00:32:16.549
to help you." And that's not true,
00:32:16.559 --> 00:32:18.630
right? They're there to protect the
00:32:18.640 --> 00:32:19.269
company.
00:32:19.279 --> 00:32:19.669
>> Yeah.
00:32:19.679 --> 00:32:23.430
>> And absolutely. Um, even as a manager,
00:32:23.440 --> 00:32:29.430
it was hard sometimes to balance
00:32:29.440 --> 00:32:32.470
things that my team members would share
00:32:32.480 --> 00:32:34.389
with me about what they were going
00:32:34.399 --> 00:32:36.789
through with their life
00:32:36.799 --> 00:32:39.669
and what I knew to be true about the
00:32:39.679 --> 00:32:41.669
demands of the workplace and what we
00:32:41.679 --> 00:32:43.750
expected of them in their performance,
00:32:43.760 --> 00:32:45.669
>> right? You know, and I would often
00:32:45.679 --> 00:32:50.149
counsel people to take leave rather than
00:32:50.159 --> 00:32:52.149
try to stick it out when you're going
00:32:52.159 --> 00:32:55.110
through something really hard because if
00:32:55.120 --> 00:32:57.029
that hard thing begins impacting your
00:32:57.039 --> 00:33:00.549
work performance, I can't judge you
00:33:00.559 --> 00:33:02.710
taking into account the hard stuff that
00:33:02.720 --> 00:33:04.389
you're going through in life. I just
00:33:04.399 --> 00:33:05.909
have to judge you against what everybody
00:33:05.919 --> 00:33:07.190
else is doing,
00:33:07.200 --> 00:33:10.630
>> right? And so as a manager, it's it can
00:33:10.640 --> 00:33:13.269
be a really tough spot to be supporting
00:33:13.279 --> 00:33:15.830
people who are going through a mental
00:33:15.840 --> 00:33:17.990
health crisis, a physical health crisis,
00:33:18.000 --> 00:33:20.630
a a work life crisis, right? Like
00:33:20.640 --> 00:33:23.350
>> things like divorce or aging parents
00:33:23.360 --> 00:33:26.789
having an illness, h kids who are in a
00:33:26.799 --> 00:33:29.669
mental or health crisis, right? So those
00:33:29.679 --> 00:33:31.830
are and the one thing I will say that's
00:33:31.840 --> 00:33:34.230
a bright spot in the tech industry is
00:33:34.240 --> 00:33:37.269
that there are really solid benefits.
00:33:37.279 --> 00:33:40.389
And so it's all the more important when
00:33:40.399 --> 00:33:42.630
you have those benefits, paid short-term
00:33:42.640 --> 00:33:44.870
disability to take them.
00:33:44.880 --> 00:33:45.350
>> Yeah.
00:33:45.360 --> 00:33:47.029
>> And that's one of the big things that I
00:33:47.039 --> 00:33:49.509
advocate with clients is take your
00:33:49.519 --> 00:33:52.389
[ __ ] leave. We get can get paid not
00:33:52.399 --> 00:33:54.549
to work in tech. That was where not
00:33:54.559 --> 00:33:57.830
working in tech came from for me was
00:33:57.840 --> 00:34:00.070
being on leave and being like, "Oh my
00:34:00.080 --> 00:34:03.750
god, it feels so good to be not working
00:34:03.760 --> 00:34:06.549
in tech, right? To be in tech and to not
00:34:06.559 --> 00:34:07.350
be working."
00:34:07.360 --> 00:34:07.750
>> Yeah.
00:34:07.760 --> 00:34:10.790
>> Um because suddenly there was the space
00:34:10.800 --> 00:34:12.550
to
00:34:12.560 --> 00:34:15.990
>> just even to let yourself see all the
00:34:16.000 --> 00:34:17.750
things that aren't working. When you're
00:34:17.760 --> 00:34:19.829
so busy and you're rushing from thing to
00:34:19.839 --> 00:34:23.109
thing, you have blinders on. um you
00:34:23.119 --> 00:34:24.869
can't let those things get in cuz
00:34:24.879 --> 00:34:26.550
they'll drag you down, right? So, you
00:34:26.560 --> 00:34:28.069
just have to be like staying the course.
00:34:28.079 --> 00:34:29.190
I'm not going to think about that. I'm
00:34:29.200 --> 00:34:30.310
not going to look at that. I'm not going
00:34:30.320 --> 00:34:31.669
to worry about that.
00:34:31.679 --> 00:34:33.109
>> But all those things that you're
00:34:33.119 --> 00:34:35.909
compartmentalizing against like
00:34:35.919 --> 00:34:37.589
>> what if that's the real thing in life
00:34:37.599 --> 00:34:39.990
that you're supposed to be prioritizing,
00:34:40.000 --> 00:34:42.069
right? And that's what I realized when I
00:34:42.079 --> 00:34:44.950
could finally take a break was like, I
00:34:44.960 --> 00:34:48.149
can't ignore my special needs child that
00:34:48.159 --> 00:34:50.069
really needs my attention and needs me
00:34:50.079 --> 00:34:52.550
to fight for him through school and
00:34:52.560 --> 00:34:55.270
through interventions. I can't ignore my
00:34:55.280 --> 00:34:57.190
own health and the fact that I kept
00:34:57.200 --> 00:34:58.870
getting sick over and over and I
00:34:58.880 --> 00:35:01.349
couldn't recover. What does that lead to
00:35:01.359 --> 00:35:03.589
over time? My health is really important
00:35:03.599 --> 00:35:05.750
to me as everyone's health should be to
00:35:05.760 --> 00:35:08.150
them, right? And we live in a place
00:35:08.160 --> 00:35:10.630
where we don't have a strong social
00:35:10.640 --> 00:35:11.829
safety net.
00:35:11.839 --> 00:35:14.390
>> And so if something happens to cause you
00:35:14.400 --> 00:35:16.950
to be debilitated or unable to work over
00:35:16.960 --> 00:35:19.910
time, that's really like a threat in the
00:35:19.920 --> 00:35:21.670
long term if you can't have health
00:35:21.680 --> 00:35:23.270
insurance or you can't provide
00:35:23.280 --> 00:35:25.990
financially for your family. We see all
00:35:26.000 --> 00:35:28.630
the time people end up in really dire
00:35:28.640 --> 00:35:29.510
straits.
00:35:29.520 --> 00:35:32.790
>> Yeah, absolutely. Health care costs are
00:35:32.800 --> 00:35:34.470
the leading cause of bankruptcy in the
00:35:34.480 --> 00:35:36.310
United States still.
00:35:36.320 --> 00:35:38.870
>> So yeah, we and it's very difficult
00:35:38.880 --> 00:35:41.430
especially we are in an entrepreneur
00:35:41.440 --> 00:35:43.670
type culture also
00:35:43.680 --> 00:35:47.030
>> and as an entrepreneur
00:35:47.040 --> 00:35:49.109
>> health care costs are outrageous but
00:35:49.119 --> 00:35:50.950
it's actually
00:35:50.960 --> 00:35:52.710
>> I'm going to probably get backlash for
00:35:52.720 --> 00:35:55.270
saying this but in some ways it's less
00:35:55.280 --> 00:35:58.150
expensive to be uninsured.
00:35:58.160 --> 00:36:00.310
like the discounts you get as an
00:36:00.320 --> 00:36:03.270
uninsured person are huge
00:36:03.280 --> 00:36:05.750
>> or paying in cash, right? As long as you
00:36:05.760 --> 00:36:07.510
don't if you don't have a chronic
00:36:07.520 --> 00:36:08.870
illness or if you don't have a
00:36:08.880 --> 00:36:09.670
catastrophic
00:36:09.680 --> 00:36:11.910
>> you never know when a chronic illness or
00:36:11.920 --> 00:36:13.910
a catastrophic illness or an accident
00:36:13.920 --> 00:36:16.310
are going to happen. And so we're like
00:36:16.320 --> 00:36:17.910
cuz you know
00:36:17.920 --> 00:36:19.349
>> if it happens and you don't have
00:36:19.359 --> 00:36:21.109
insurance then you're really screwed,
00:36:21.119 --> 00:36:23.349
right? Like totally screwed. So yeah,
00:36:23.359 --> 00:36:25.190
that's a whole another thing. But I do
00:36:25.200 --> 00:36:28.150
want to ask what your thoughts are on
00:36:28.160 --> 00:36:30.069
this movement for people to be
00:36:30.079 --> 00:36:32.069
entrepreneurs. I'm an entrepreneur. I'm
00:36:32.079 --> 00:36:35.750
a therapist, a coach, a podcast host.
00:36:35.760 --> 00:36:38.950
And it's all private practice. The
00:36:38.960 --> 00:36:41.430
landscape of therapy, private practice
00:36:41.440 --> 00:36:44.069
has changed immensely and continues to
00:36:44.079 --> 00:36:47.030
shift is a little scary as corporations
00:36:47.040 --> 00:36:49.990
are now buying basically buying access
00:36:50.000 --> 00:36:53.430
to insurance companies and credentiing
00:36:53.440 --> 00:36:56.470
and many people feel that it will be
00:36:56.480 --> 00:36:59.670
required at some point to go through one
00:36:59.680 --> 00:37:01.589
of the corporations in order to be
00:37:01.599 --> 00:37:03.270
credentialed with insurance companies.
00:37:03.280 --> 00:37:07.430
So that's a whole thing. But many people
00:37:07.440 --> 00:37:09.990
in I think the therapy space always
00:37:10.000 --> 00:37:11.990
wanted the goal was to have my own
00:37:12.000 --> 00:37:15.910
practice. And what we don't realize and
00:37:15.920 --> 00:37:18.630
what I didn't realize cuz I this is my
00:37:18.640 --> 00:37:23.510
third career was how much business
00:37:23.520 --> 00:37:25.589
marketing
00:37:25.599 --> 00:37:28.390
social media like how much time
00:37:28.400 --> 00:37:29.430
>> overhead
00:37:29.440 --> 00:37:32.150
>> that overhead either you pay a lot of
00:37:32.160 --> 00:37:34.069
money for someone else to do it for you
00:37:34.079 --> 00:37:37.270
or you I feel like myself and many of my
00:37:37.280 --> 00:37:39.910
colleagues are being dragged into the
00:37:39.920 --> 00:37:41.589
hustle culture.
00:37:41.599 --> 00:37:45.109
>> Yep. Because the only way to get
00:37:45.119 --> 00:37:47.190
referrals and put your name out there
00:37:47.200 --> 00:37:49.670
and do these
00:37:49.680 --> 00:37:51.670
I don't want to side gigs I guess you
00:37:51.680 --> 00:37:54.630
would say or other ways other streams of
00:37:54.640 --> 00:37:57.430
income is to start learning how to
00:37:57.440 --> 00:37:59.510
market yourself and this I'm not in the
00:37:59.520 --> 00:38:01.990
only field that this is happening to.
00:38:02.000 --> 00:38:03.430
>> Sure. Absolutely.
00:38:03.440 --> 00:38:05.910
>> Yeah. So it's almost oh I own my own
00:38:05.920 --> 00:38:09.589
business and sometimes it still feels
00:38:09.599 --> 00:38:12.630
toxic.
00:38:12.640 --> 00:38:14.630
Yeah. And and I think you're you're
00:38:14.640 --> 00:38:16.470
getting at something that's really
00:38:16.480 --> 00:38:19.030
critical for everyone in the United
00:38:19.040 --> 00:38:21.109
States today, which is again this
00:38:21.119 --> 00:38:23.589
dismantling of our social safety net.
00:38:23.599 --> 00:38:25.670
>> It's toxic because hustle culture is
00:38:25.680 --> 00:38:29.109
toxic. And hustle culture is the water
00:38:29.119 --> 00:38:31.109
that we're all swimming in. Yeah. Right.
00:38:31.119 --> 00:38:33.270
And this this idea of this rugged
00:38:33.280 --> 00:38:35.589
individualism and doing it all on your
00:38:35.599 --> 00:38:37.670
own, right? It's awesome to be an
00:38:37.680 --> 00:38:40.870
entrepreneur if that's for you. But you
00:38:40.880 --> 00:38:44.230
also shouldn't have to be struggling and
00:38:44.240 --> 00:38:47.430
stressing and building your entire thing
00:38:47.440 --> 00:38:50.470
from scratch for elder care and health
00:38:50.480 --> 00:38:53.109
care and child care and schooling and
00:38:53.119 --> 00:38:54.630
extracurriculars, right? We've just
00:38:54.640 --> 00:38:56.870
dismantled all of these pieces of the
00:38:56.880 --> 00:38:59.589
social safety net that in the past
00:38:59.599 --> 00:39:01.510
people could rely a little bit more on
00:39:01.520 --> 00:39:04.230
systems to provide. And if we look at
00:39:04.240 --> 00:39:06.230
other countries that should have
00:39:06.240 --> 00:39:08.950
comparable standard of living, people
00:39:08.960 --> 00:39:11.190
are very hap people are so much happier
00:39:11.200 --> 00:39:13.109
like in Western European countries for
00:39:13.119 --> 00:39:15.990
example where there's humane parental
00:39:16.000 --> 00:39:18.790
leave and maternally leave policies or
00:39:18.800 --> 00:39:21.349
they have pretty much unlimited sick
00:39:21.359 --> 00:39:23.430
time so that you're not stressing that
00:39:23.440 --> 00:39:25.109
you're going to get fired if you get
00:39:25.119 --> 00:39:27.349
sick. Those kinds of things. And the
00:39:27.359 --> 00:39:29.589
number one obviously is the universal
00:39:29.599 --> 00:39:33.349
healthcare. Yeah. because it just it is
00:39:33.359 --> 00:39:35.910
a burden that individuals should not
00:39:35.920 --> 00:39:37.270
have to bear, right?
00:39:37.280 --> 00:39:42.230
>> So I would say in my opinion this
00:39:42.240 --> 00:39:45.349
toxic rugged individualism that we have
00:39:45.359 --> 00:39:47.910
in the United States is really one of
00:39:47.920 --> 00:39:52.069
the main drivers of that kind of burnout
00:39:52.079 --> 00:39:55.589
that entrepreneurs feel even though even
00:39:55.599 --> 00:39:57.510
with folks that are successful, right?
00:39:57.520 --> 00:39:59.030
It's when you're successful, then you're
00:39:59.040 --> 00:40:00.710
hiring other people to do these things
00:40:00.720 --> 00:40:02.310
for you and then those people's
00:40:02.320 --> 00:40:04.470
livelihoods are depending on you
00:40:04.480 --> 00:40:06.390
continuing to do the thing. Yeah.
00:40:06.400 --> 00:40:08.550
>> And so it's a lot of pressure no matter
00:40:08.560 --> 00:40:09.109
what.
00:40:09.119 --> 00:40:11.430
>> Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Yes. The
00:40:11.440 --> 00:40:13.589
more you are making or the more you're
00:40:13.599 --> 00:40:16.069
more successful you are, the more people
00:40:16.079 --> 00:40:19.109
depend on you, the more stress you feel.
00:40:19.119 --> 00:40:22.230
Yeah. Absolutely. And the bar just keeps
00:40:22.240 --> 00:40:25.109
getting raised to how much you need to
00:40:25.119 --> 00:40:28.630
do in order to keep that same status.
00:40:28.640 --> 00:40:29.589
>> Absolutely.
00:40:29.599 --> 00:40:31.670
>> Yeah. So tell me about what you're doing
00:40:31.680 --> 00:40:33.510
now and how you're helping people with
00:40:33.520 --> 00:40:35.829
these types of things.
00:40:35.839 --> 00:40:37.270
>> Yeah. Starting about a year and a half
00:40:37.280 --> 00:40:41.589
ago, I began work on the platform that I
00:40:41.599 --> 00:40:44.630
run called Not Working in Tech. It's a
00:40:44.640 --> 00:40:47.750
website, a podcast, and a community
00:40:47.760 --> 00:40:50.470
that's geared towards
00:40:50.480 --> 00:40:52.710
addressing some of these issues that
00:40:52.720 --> 00:40:54.870
especially folks in tech are grappling
00:40:54.880 --> 00:40:57.910
with around this really quickly changing
00:40:57.920 --> 00:41:00.790
workplaces and unrealistic demands that
00:41:00.800 --> 00:41:03.750
are just constant and roundthe-clock
00:41:03.760 --> 00:41:08.230
availability. seeing people who can work
00:41:08.240 --> 00:41:11.349
12, 13, 14 hour days getting ahead and
00:41:11.359 --> 00:41:14.710
recognizing, oh, I need to have more
00:41:14.720 --> 00:41:16.870
limits on my workday because I have
00:41:16.880 --> 00:41:19.829
these outside demands. So I work with
00:41:19.839 --> 00:41:21.750
individuals and I also work with
00:41:21.760 --> 00:41:24.950
companies to understand
00:41:24.960 --> 00:41:27.829
what specifics in each case might be
00:41:27.839 --> 00:41:31.109
driving their burnout or work toxic work
00:41:31.119 --> 00:41:33.750
cultures and addressing some of those
00:41:33.760 --> 00:41:36.230
drivers to make the environment feel
00:41:36.240 --> 00:41:39.589
more sustainable for individuals. It's
00:41:39.599 --> 00:41:43.030
about radical rep prioritization,
00:41:43.040 --> 00:41:46.230
putting yourself first, being willing to
00:41:46.240 --> 00:41:48.790
say no to things and understanding,
00:41:48.800 --> 00:41:50.470
anticipating, and accepting the
00:41:50.480 --> 00:41:53.990
consequences of that. For organizations,
00:41:54.000 --> 00:41:57.030
it's about recognizing where
00:41:57.040 --> 00:42:00.390
unrealistic, unrelenting demands on
00:42:00.400 --> 00:42:02.550
individuals are actually burning people
00:42:02.560 --> 00:42:06.550
out and reducing their productivity.
00:42:06.560 --> 00:42:09.270
So if individuals come to you, they
00:42:09.280 --> 00:42:10.870
might not necessarily want to leave
00:42:10.880 --> 00:42:13.349
their job, but want to live, they want
00:42:13.359 --> 00:42:16.950
to want help being coached on how to
00:42:16.960 --> 00:42:20.870
live life more freely, taking care of
00:42:20.880 --> 00:42:23.270
themselves better. Is that right?
00:42:23.280 --> 00:42:25.510
>> Yeah. And I'm not a coach. I'm not a
00:42:25.520 --> 00:42:28.390
career coach. I'm I work with people in
00:42:28.400 --> 00:42:29.670
these acute moments.
00:42:29.680 --> 00:42:32.870
>> Okay. So we might do three, four or five
00:42:32.880 --> 00:42:34.550
sessions over the course of a few
00:42:34.560 --> 00:42:36.790
months. Yep. But one of the big things
00:42:36.800 --> 00:42:39.030
that I'm doing is connecting people with
00:42:39.040 --> 00:42:41.670
resources, whether it's career coaching,
00:42:41.680 --> 00:42:44.710
therapy, a retreat, something where they
00:42:44.720 --> 00:42:45.990
can
00:42:46.000 --> 00:42:47.990
>> find the people that are going to be
00:42:48.000 --> 00:42:50.069
their support system and sustain them
00:42:50.079 --> 00:42:51.750
over the long term. Right? I'm not a
00:42:51.760 --> 00:42:54.150
therapist. I'm not a career coach, but I
00:42:54.160 --> 00:42:57.349
am somebody who recognizes that it's
00:42:57.359 --> 00:42:59.990
critical to navigate these really
00:43:00.000 --> 00:43:01.990
challenging times with help. We cannot
00:43:02.000 --> 00:43:05.190
do it alone. And so much of what leads
00:43:05.200 --> 00:43:07.430
people to burnout is just taking on more
00:43:07.440 --> 00:43:09.030
and being like, I got this. I could do
00:43:09.040 --> 00:43:10.710
it alone. No, I don't need help from
00:43:10.720 --> 00:43:12.630
anybody. And that's not true.
00:43:12.640 --> 00:43:16.309
>> No, definitely not. And you're right.
00:43:16.319 --> 00:43:19.990
Many of these problems didn't exist when
00:43:20.000 --> 00:43:22.150
we had systems in place, but they aren't
00:43:22.160 --> 00:43:24.390
in place now. And the systems that are
00:43:24.400 --> 00:43:26.230
in place almost seem hidden from people.
00:43:26.240 --> 00:43:28.550
A lot of people don't know what's out
00:43:28.560 --> 00:43:29.670
there.
00:43:29.680 --> 00:43:33.510
>> Um I feel like on a weekly or sometimes
00:43:33.520 --> 00:43:35.589
daily basis, I find out about something
00:43:35.599 --> 00:43:37.510
I'm like, I had no idea that was a
00:43:37.520 --> 00:43:37.829
thing.
00:43:37.839 --> 00:43:38.550
>> Totally.
00:43:38.560 --> 00:43:39.349
>> Like I didn't
00:43:39.359 --> 00:43:41.589
>> Yeah. Even for example, I'm a parent of
00:43:41.599 --> 00:43:44.069
a special needs kid. My child has an IEP
00:43:44.079 --> 00:43:45.670
at school. That's an individualized
00:43:45.680 --> 00:43:48.470
education plan. I've been doing this
00:43:48.480 --> 00:43:51.030
with my child for
00:43:51.040 --> 00:43:53.910
four plus years now. I'm still learning
00:43:53.920 --> 00:43:55.910
about organizations and resources where
00:43:55.920 --> 00:43:57.349
it's like, "Oh, have you heard of this
00:43:57.359 --> 00:43:59.829
one nonprofit? They're providing free
00:43:59.839 --> 00:44:01.589
parent advocates." And I'm like, "Oh my
00:44:01.599 --> 00:44:03.510
god, there's free parent advocates. Sign
00:44:03.520 --> 00:44:05.109
me up." Right. But
00:44:05.119 --> 00:44:07.270
>> you have to go out and seek those things
00:44:07.280 --> 00:44:09.270
on your own. They're a lot of times,
00:44:09.280 --> 00:44:11.270
like you're saying, totally invisible
00:44:11.280 --> 00:44:12.950
unless you're really digging.
00:44:12.960 --> 00:44:14.870
>> Yes. or you asked the right question.
00:44:14.880 --> 00:44:17.030
This is completely unrelated, but I had
00:44:17.040 --> 00:44:18.870
no idea. If you're going to go on the
00:44:18.880 --> 00:44:21.109
long vacation or you are a snow, we're
00:44:21.119 --> 00:44:23.270
in Florida, so snowboards, and you're
00:44:23.280 --> 00:44:24.630
not going to use your car. Let's say
00:44:24.640 --> 00:44:25.829
you're not going to use your car for a
00:44:25.839 --> 00:44:27.589
month. You can call your insurance
00:44:27.599 --> 00:44:29.750
company and get a policy for a parked
00:44:29.760 --> 00:44:30.630
car.
00:44:30.640 --> 00:44:31.190
>> Yeah.
00:44:31.200 --> 00:44:34.230
>> I had no idea. So, I'm in the middle of
00:44:34.240 --> 00:44:37.030
lease, like two leases, and I was like,
00:44:37.040 --> 00:44:38.790
I don't I'm not going to use the car.
00:44:38.800 --> 00:44:40.790
I'm just waiting it out. And they were
00:44:40.800 --> 00:44:44.230
like, "Oh, we'll just put a non-use
00:44:44.240 --> 00:44:45.589
policy on it or something." And I'm
00:44:45.599 --> 00:44:48.230
like, "What?" I thought I have to pay
00:44:48.240 --> 00:44:50.390
hundred hundreds of dollars more. But
00:44:50.400 --> 00:44:52.230
it's things like that. I didn't ask for
00:44:52.240 --> 00:44:54.390
that. I stumbled upon it, but it
00:44:54.400 --> 00:44:55.910
existed.
00:44:55.920 --> 00:44:58.950
>> Things like that exist in every area and
00:44:58.960 --> 00:45:03.190
especially in this work. And and I would
00:45:03.200 --> 00:45:05.510
say too, so much of that is about
00:45:05.520 --> 00:45:09.270
corporations being allowed legally to
00:45:09.280 --> 00:45:12.790
just milk the individual for everything,
00:45:12.800 --> 00:45:16.390
right? I I just coincidentally had
00:45:16.400 --> 00:45:19.270
something similar to you with car my car
00:45:19.280 --> 00:45:21.270
out of being out of service and not
00:45:21.280 --> 00:45:23.589
having it for a while. Something else
00:45:23.599 --> 00:45:25.589
happened recently where I had cancelled
00:45:25.599 --> 00:45:30.069
an airfare an airline ticket in 2025
00:45:30.079 --> 00:45:32.550
and they told me the amount would be
00:45:32.560 --> 00:45:34.550
available as a credit. And then when I
00:45:34.560 --> 00:45:37.829
went a couple weeks ago to rebook and
00:45:37.839 --> 00:45:39.910
try to use my credit, it wasn't there.
00:45:39.920 --> 00:45:41.589
And when I reached out to customer
00:45:41.599 --> 00:45:44.230
service, they said, "Oh, that's because
00:45:44.240 --> 00:45:46.790
your travel credit expires after a
00:45:46.800 --> 00:45:50.230
year." And I was like, this is like
00:45:50.240 --> 00:45:52.870
literal physical money that I've already
00:45:52.880 --> 00:45:55.190
paid. Like, where does it go? Just into
00:45:55.200 --> 00:45:57.910
the coffers, right? And that's there's
00:45:57.920 --> 00:46:00.150
just a lot of ways where it feels like
00:46:00.160 --> 00:46:02.150
modern life is stacked against us by
00:46:02.160 --> 00:46:03.349
corporations.
00:46:03.359 --> 00:46:06.390
>> Yes. Yes. Especially here. I don't know
00:46:06.400 --> 00:46:08.230
if it's different everywhere, but it
00:46:08.240 --> 00:46:11.190
feels worse here. I work with a company
00:46:11.200 --> 00:46:15.910
out of Australia with something and
00:46:15.920 --> 00:46:18.870
I wasn't alerted to a change in a policy
00:46:18.880 --> 00:46:20.470
and so my rate was going to go up for
00:46:20.480 --> 00:46:22.550
something and I just emailed them and
00:46:22.560 --> 00:46:25.270
said this isn't in my budget because I
00:46:25.280 --> 00:46:28.790
didn't expect it and within less than an
00:46:28.800 --> 00:46:30.870
hour I got an email back we've corrected
00:46:30.880 --> 00:46:33.750
it this is our policy but you if since
00:46:33.760 --> 00:46:35.430
you didn't feel like you were aware of
00:46:35.440 --> 00:46:37.589
it we're going to make an exception for
00:46:37.599 --> 00:46:39.030
you this time and I was just like that
00:46:39.040 --> 00:46:40.470
was so easy.
00:46:40.480 --> 00:46:42.710
>> Yeah, so easy.
00:46:42.720 --> 00:46:44.790
>> And it really was me not reading between
00:46:44.800 --> 00:46:46.630
the lines and not understanding their
00:46:46.640 --> 00:46:49.670
policy. It was in writing, but they just
00:46:49.680 --> 00:46:53.910
>> Okay. Okay. I was like,
00:46:53.920 --> 00:46:55.829
>> yeah, incredible. That felt good. It
00:46:55.839 --> 00:46:56.870
felt good. And
00:46:56.880 --> 00:46:57.430
>> yeah,
00:46:57.440 --> 00:46:59.670
>> and I Yeah, I think that a lot of
00:46:59.680 --> 00:47:02.390
corporations also operate along the
00:47:02.400 --> 00:47:06.069
belief that we won't ask questions. We
00:47:06.079 --> 00:47:08.630
won't push back. We won't say I don't
00:47:08.640 --> 00:47:11.670
know this or whatever it is. Yes. Okay.
00:47:11.680 --> 00:47:13.349
So,
00:47:13.359 --> 00:47:17.030
when and how would someone find you? I'm
00:47:17.040 --> 00:47:20.550
curious from a because this
00:47:20.560 --> 00:47:22.790
this is a new idea that you had that
00:47:22.800 --> 00:47:24.550
you've turned into a business, which is
00:47:24.560 --> 00:47:28.630
great. You've it's very creative. How do
00:47:28.640 --> 00:47:30.630
people find you?
00:47:30.640 --> 00:47:31.190
>> How do you
00:47:31.200 --> 00:47:33.990
>> Yeah. Um, people find me either through
00:47:34.000 --> 00:47:35.910
word of mouth, like folks that I've
00:47:35.920 --> 00:47:38.390
already worked with or folks that are in
00:47:38.400 --> 00:47:40.309
my personal network who know what I'm
00:47:40.319 --> 00:47:43.109
doing will often recommend, hey, you
00:47:43.119 --> 00:47:44.230
should reach out to Jess. Someone's
00:47:44.240 --> 00:47:45.670
like, "Oh my god, my company's going
00:47:45.680 --> 00:47:47.030
through a reorg and I'm going to get a
00:47:47.040 --> 00:47:49.349
new manager and I'm so scared." That's a
00:47:49.359 --> 00:47:51.510
great time. That's I often work with
00:47:51.520 --> 00:47:52.950
people who are in those kind of
00:47:52.960 --> 00:47:55.910
situations. I'm on social media. I'm on
00:47:55.920 --> 00:47:58.630
Instagram and Tik Tok. I have a website
00:47:58.640 --> 00:48:00.630
notworking.com.
00:48:00.640 --> 00:48:02.630
I've got a podcast that came out this
00:48:02.640 --> 00:48:05.349
past spring and we're gearing up for
00:48:05.359 --> 00:48:07.030
another season that we're going to start
00:48:07.040 --> 00:48:08.550
recording in the fall.
00:48:08.560 --> 00:48:09.190
>> That's great.
00:48:09.200 --> 00:48:12.069
>> Um, so yeah, in the sort of regular
00:48:12.079 --> 00:48:14.390
channels that people find small
00:48:14.400 --> 00:48:17.030
businesses and providers, but also
00:48:17.040 --> 00:48:18.710
really a lot quite a lot through word of
00:48:18.720 --> 00:48:19.349
mouth.
00:48:19.359 --> 00:48:22.069
>> That's great. That's great. And you do
00:48:22.079 --> 00:48:23.990
you feel good about where you are and
00:48:24.000 --> 00:48:27.430
how it's going and just
00:48:27.440 --> 00:48:29.829
>> I'm at the beginning. It's going. it is
00:48:29.839 --> 00:48:32.150
going. I'm trying to grow my business.
00:48:32.160 --> 00:48:33.190
Of course,
00:48:33.200 --> 00:48:36.950
>> I'm looking at different ways that I can
00:48:36.960 --> 00:48:40.069
scale myself and my message to be able
00:48:40.079 --> 00:48:44.950
to have broader groups of people take in
00:48:44.960 --> 00:48:47.030
the ideas that I'm sharing and really
00:48:47.040 --> 00:48:48.790
take action in their own lives.
00:48:48.800 --> 00:48:49.190
>> Yeah.
00:48:49.200 --> 00:48:51.670
>> Right. I would love for everyone who's
00:48:51.680 --> 00:48:53.510
burnt out to just start taking leave
00:48:53.520 --> 00:48:54.390
right away.
00:48:54.400 --> 00:48:57.510
>> Yes. um it's not for my I don't gain
00:48:57.520 --> 00:48:59.670
anything financially from it, but the
00:48:59.680 --> 00:49:01.190
companies that are burning out their
00:49:01.200 --> 00:49:03.589
employees receive a very strong message
00:49:03.599 --> 00:49:06.150
when that's happening. So yeah, it's
00:49:06.160 --> 00:49:08.549
going really well. Of course, it I'm
00:49:08.559 --> 00:49:10.230
just at the beginning of the not working
00:49:10.240 --> 00:49:14.069
in tech journey and I do have a lot of
00:49:14.079 --> 00:49:17.030
bigger goals over time. I would love to
00:49:17.040 --> 00:49:18.710
bring the same kind of spotlight that
00:49:18.720 --> 00:49:22.069
I'm bringing in tech to other industries
00:49:22.079 --> 00:49:24.390
because it's not just technology, right?
00:49:24.400 --> 00:49:25.589
I have a lot of friends who are
00:49:25.599 --> 00:49:27.750
teachers, a lot of friends who work in
00:49:27.760 --> 00:49:29.750
healthcare. Those are two industries
00:49:29.760 --> 00:49:31.430
where I would say it's not working in
00:49:31.440 --> 00:49:32.870
education. It's not working in
00:49:32.880 --> 00:49:35.109
healthcare. I've got a friend who's a
00:49:35.119 --> 00:49:37.670
nurse who just goes to work when she's
00:49:37.680 --> 00:49:41.030
sick because they don't have a
00:49:41.040 --> 00:49:43.270
substitute or backup care and she cares
00:49:43.280 --> 00:49:45.349
so much about her fellow nurses. It's I
00:49:45.359 --> 00:49:47.829
can't just let my co-workers bear the
00:49:47.839 --> 00:49:50.390
load when I'm out. I have to go to work.
00:49:50.400 --> 00:49:53.030
And that's just crazy to me, right?
00:49:53.040 --> 00:49:55.829
>> Um, of course, teachers are so burnt out
00:49:55.839 --> 00:49:57.990
and we don't do a good job in this
00:49:58.000 --> 00:50:01.190
country of elevating and rewarding
00:50:01.200 --> 00:50:03.990
excellent teachers with new career
00:50:04.000 --> 00:50:07.190
opportunities and more money. Like they
00:50:07.200 --> 00:50:09.430
some of the best teachers, these people
00:50:09.440 --> 00:50:11.430
should be teaching millions of people
00:50:11.440 --> 00:50:14.309
how to be great teachers, too. Yeah. Um,
00:50:14.319 --> 00:50:16.549
and in my opinion, they should be paid
00:50:16.559 --> 00:50:17.990
like sports stars.
00:50:18.000 --> 00:50:18.549
>> Exactly.
00:50:18.559 --> 00:50:20.150
>> You know, they are heroes.
00:50:20.160 --> 00:50:20.710
>> They are.
00:50:20.720 --> 00:50:23.910
>> Um, so I really do hope over time to
00:50:23.920 --> 00:50:26.950
bring that lens to other industries. Um,
00:50:26.960 --> 00:50:28.790
and coming from a public policy
00:50:28.800 --> 00:50:30.790
background, my hope is to influence
00:50:30.800 --> 00:50:33.670
policy over time. I would love to see
00:50:33.680 --> 00:50:37.430
more humane labor policies and work and
00:50:37.440 --> 00:50:40.390
leave policies that support everyone
00:50:40.400 --> 00:50:42.309
equally so that we can all feel that
00:50:42.319 --> 00:50:45.270
we're on equal footing and it's not just
00:50:45.280 --> 00:50:47.430
the person that can work 16 hours a day
00:50:47.440 --> 00:50:48.630
who gets ahead.
00:50:48.640 --> 00:50:50.309
>> Yes. It feels like we've gone backwards
00:50:50.319 --> 00:50:52.390
a little bit the last few years or
00:50:52.400 --> 00:50:53.349
that's
00:50:53.359 --> 00:50:56.390
>> Yeah. Uh so I hope you do have an impact
00:50:56.400 --> 00:50:57.829
on policy. I think
00:50:57.839 --> 00:51:00.150
>> Thank you. When I went to law school, my
00:51:00.160 --> 00:51:02.950
goal was to I went I got a health care
00:51:02.960 --> 00:51:05.750
health law certificate and an MHA with
00:51:05.760 --> 00:51:07.910
the goal of
00:51:07.920 --> 00:51:11.589
really access to care was my policy
00:51:11.599 --> 00:51:14.470
goal. But I moved I was in St. Louis and
00:51:14.480 --> 00:51:16.069
I was able to intern somewhere where
00:51:16.079 --> 00:51:17.750
that seemed possible. I was like I'm
00:51:17.760 --> 00:51:19.270
going to have an and there's policy work
00:51:19.280 --> 00:51:23.750
to do here. And then we moved to Florida
00:51:23.760 --> 00:51:28.150
and it was like, "Oh, there's not anyone
00:51:28.160 --> 00:51:29.910
here.
00:51:29.920 --> 00:51:32.230
This is a needle in a hay stack type job
00:51:32.240 --> 00:51:32.870
to look at."
00:51:32.880 --> 00:51:34.630
>> Yeah. But there has to be the political
00:51:34.640 --> 00:51:35.589
will.
00:51:35.599 --> 00:51:37.190
>> Yeah. And there just wasn't. And I
00:51:37.200 --> 00:51:39.349
quickly realized that and I went into
00:51:39.359 --> 00:51:42.549
corporate healthcare and I hated it.
00:51:42.559 --> 00:51:44.790
Hated it.
00:51:44.800 --> 00:51:48.069
>> Yeah. Not it was
00:51:48.079 --> 00:51:49.670
the only thing I liked about it was
00:51:49.680 --> 00:51:52.230
dressing up in my cute little suits and
00:51:52.240 --> 00:51:54.309
I was like and then I was like oh this
00:51:54.319 --> 00:51:57.270
is terri what we're doing is no good
00:51:57.280 --> 00:52:01.670
this is boring it's the burnout is there
00:52:01.680 --> 00:52:05.270
so yeah many different industries and
00:52:05.280 --> 00:52:08.150
>> and I think that younger people are
00:52:08.160 --> 00:52:11.589
really taken advantage of I have a very
00:52:11.599 --> 00:52:13.750
close family member who's working in the
00:52:13.760 --> 00:52:17.670
banking industry Ree and it's not fair
00:52:17.680 --> 00:52:20.309
what is expected of her because she is
00:52:20.319 --> 00:52:22.230
moving up. She's moving up because she's
00:52:22.240 --> 00:52:23.349
talented,
00:52:23.359 --> 00:52:25.990
>> but they're going to lose her because
00:52:26.000 --> 00:52:29.030
she's dying. So,
00:52:29.040 --> 00:52:33.109
>> she's not home until 8 9:00 at night.
00:52:33.119 --> 00:52:35.990
It's impossible to take time off. If she
00:52:36.000 --> 00:52:39.030
does, there's so much work for her to do
00:52:39.040 --> 00:52:41.430
when she returns. It's not fair
00:52:41.440 --> 00:52:43.589
>> because she's in her 20s. It shouldn't
00:52:43.599 --> 00:52:45.030
be affected
00:52:45.040 --> 00:52:47.270
>> that she kill herself
00:52:47.280 --> 00:52:49.589
>> to keep moving up. It's not fair.
00:52:49.599 --> 00:52:52.230
>> Exactly. And there's this societal panic
00:52:52.240 --> 00:52:54.309
about, oh, why aren't young people doing
00:52:54.319 --> 00:52:56.069
this or that? Why aren't young people
00:52:56.079 --> 00:52:57.430
having kids?
00:52:57.440 --> 00:52:59.430
>> And it's not a mystery, right? When you
00:52:59.440 --> 00:53:01.349
share the story about your close family
00:53:01.359 --> 00:53:02.390
member,
00:53:02.400 --> 00:53:04.710
>> how could she imagine if she wants to be
00:53:04.720 --> 00:53:07.670
a parent, how could she imagine being a
00:53:07.680 --> 00:53:10.870
parent, right? and giving the time that
00:53:10.880 --> 00:53:13.349
children deserve to be focused on. You
00:53:13.359 --> 00:53:15.349
can't you should not have to choose
00:53:15.359 --> 00:53:19.109
between your health, your family, your
00:53:19.119 --> 00:53:22.549
humanity, and your career progression.
00:53:22.559 --> 00:53:25.030
>> No, absolutely not. Absolutely not. I
00:53:25.040 --> 00:53:27.990
think there's a whole another niche of
00:53:28.000 --> 00:53:29.910
maybe within tech and every other
00:53:29.920 --> 00:53:32.950
industry for mothers
00:53:32.960 --> 00:53:35.430
specifically or people who want to be
00:53:35.440 --> 00:53:37.750
mothers. And yeah, you're right. People
00:53:37.760 --> 00:53:41.190
aren't having kids because they can't
00:53:41.200 --> 00:53:44.230
they can't win when it the cost of
00:53:44.240 --> 00:53:46.630
living is outrageous. It just in the
00:53:46.640 --> 00:53:49.589
last three years it is elevated so much.
00:53:49.599 --> 00:53:52.390
I can't imagine
00:53:52.400 --> 00:53:55.270
what a young person is thinking about
00:53:55.280 --> 00:53:56.950
when they're looking at how much they
00:53:56.960 --> 00:53:58.710
can make
00:53:58.720 --> 00:53:59.990
the amount of time that they have to
00:54:00.000 --> 00:54:02.950
work to make that bringing someone else
00:54:02.960 --> 00:54:04.630
into the world.
00:54:04.640 --> 00:54:07.190
>> Like it's not a priority. It can't be.
00:54:07.200 --> 00:54:09.910
>> Yeah, totally.
00:54:09.920 --> 00:54:12.470
>> Yeah. And I would love to see I think
00:54:12.480 --> 00:54:14.230
one of the really big things that guides
00:54:14.240 --> 00:54:17.270
me is you can't create what you don't
00:54:17.280 --> 00:54:20.069
envision. And so it's so important to
00:54:20.079 --> 00:54:22.309
have these conversations and talk about
00:54:22.319 --> 00:54:24.710
what we do envision, what we do want,
00:54:24.720 --> 00:54:26.950
what that those ideal policies look
00:54:26.960 --> 00:54:29.190
like. What does it look like to support
00:54:29.200 --> 00:54:31.349
parents and moms in the workplace? What
00:54:31.359 --> 00:54:33.750
does it look like to build a new
00:54:33.760 --> 00:54:36.390
paradigm where each of us isn't
00:54:36.400 --> 00:54:38.549
reinventing the wheel for child care
00:54:38.559 --> 00:54:42.390
from 0 to 5? Or each individual family
00:54:42.400 --> 00:54:45.510
isn't panicking in an emergency when
00:54:45.520 --> 00:54:47.990
they suddenly realize that their aging
00:54:48.000 --> 00:54:51.109
family member needs a lot more care than
00:54:51.119 --> 00:54:52.870
they've needed in the past. These are
00:54:52.880 --> 00:54:55.109
not individual problems. These are
00:54:55.119 --> 00:54:56.870
societal problems that we're forcing
00:54:56.880 --> 00:54:59.670
individuals to solve on their own. But
00:54:59.680 --> 00:55:01.670
it's really important to envision and
00:55:01.680 --> 00:55:03.829
imagine what would it look like so that
00:55:03.839 --> 00:55:05.430
we can build towards that.
00:55:05.440 --> 00:55:08.950
>> Absolutely. Absolutely. Yes. Well, thank
00:55:08.960 --> 00:55:11.190
you so much. I love the work you're
00:55:11.200 --> 00:55:12.150
doing and
00:55:12.160 --> 00:55:15.270
>> thank you so much. I love the it's brave
00:55:15.280 --> 00:55:17.589
to go out there and start something new
00:55:17.599 --> 00:55:22.470
and have a vision and even brave to
00:55:22.480 --> 00:55:25.109
think about changing policy someday
00:55:25.119 --> 00:55:27.990
because it's a it seems like Mount
00:55:28.000 --> 00:55:30.950
Everest but people have done it and they
00:55:30.960 --> 00:55:33.430
do it and they keep doing it and how
00:55:33.440 --> 00:55:35.270
that's how we get better. So
00:55:35.280 --> 00:55:36.150
>> totally.
00:55:36.160 --> 00:55:38.549
>> Yeah. Incredible work. Thank you for
00:55:38.559 --> 00:55:39.990
sharing. Um
00:55:40.000 --> 00:55:41.990
>> thank you so much for having me Leslie.
00:55:42.000 --> 00:55:43.109
I found this this is a great
00:55:43.119 --> 00:55:45.270
conversation for anybody who wants to
00:55:45.280 --> 00:55:47.109
find you. All of your information will
00:55:47.119 --> 00:55:50.150
be in the show notes on YouTube podcast
00:55:50.160 --> 00:55:52.150
and Spotify and we'll be sharing on
00:55:52.160 --> 00:55:54.230
Instagram. So, thank you. Thank you.
00:55:54.240 --> 00:55:54.549
Thank you.
00:55:54.559 --> 00:55:56.309
>> Great. Thank you so much for having me.
00:55:56.319 --> 00:55:58.390
I love talking to you and I really
00:55:58.400 --> 00:56:00.230
appreciate the opportunity to share my
00:56:00.240 --> 00:56:01.990
work with you and your audience.
00:56:02.000 --> 00:56:04.390
>> Thank you. Thanks for everyone listening
00:56:04.400 --> 00:56:06.309
in. Subscribe, follow, do all the
00:56:06.319 --> 00:56:09.589
things. Until next week. Thank you.
00:56:09.599 --> 00:56:12.880
Thanks so much.