WEBVTT
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Hello, I'm Maria.
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And I'm Suzanne.
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And welcome to Publishing Pels Podcast, a podcast where two Pels talk about publishing.
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For nearly a decade, we have tried, failed, and sometimes succeeded at being traditionally published.
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Come along with us as we share everything we've learned in this gate cuped, confusing, but incredibly fun and rewarding industry.
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And today we are joined by Anto Mar.
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Thank you so much for being here.
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Hi, thank you so much for having me.
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I'm excited to talk on the publishing pals.
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Oh, I was so excited to talk to you.
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Um, Anto Mar is an illustrator and graphic designer specializing in book covers and layout.
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She has a degree in graphic design from the Savannah College of Art and Design and has worked for companies such as BookLogics, McMillan, and St.
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Martin's Publishing.
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And I I guess I'd love to start off because I I feel like uh a lot of the like in-house publishing jobs, there's not a lot known about them.
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Just um like what is the process um for an in-house layout artist of creating a book's cover from like what information you're giving to like how you would work with an illustrator if you're using one to the final product.
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Like, can you walk us through the process?
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Yeah, totally.
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I'd love to start with the process.
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So I did layout design in past companies, but where I am now at McMillan, I am just a cover designer and layout design is separate for me.
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So at first I was sad about it because I love layout design, but it is there's a lot that goes into just the cover.
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So I see why those are two separate jobs.
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Like you need a lot of people for that.
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So I would say the process begins with editors obviously um acquire manuscripts from an author.
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And when it comes time, like once they're ready, not always fully written, but once it's ready, they bring to us like a cover brief, is what we call it, where they let us know the genre of the book, a bunch of stuff about the book, you know, what the characters are like.
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And then they always give us a couple ideas of like this is the direction of cover I like to see.
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Here are other covers that I feel my book would fit with.
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So they give us a whole brief of stuff about their book.
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And then between my manager and I, we like fight for which books we want to work on the cover for.
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And then so is it like you get a pile of them and like you you sort through a description or something?
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Yeah, totally.
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That's a like we'll each season of books, which we usually we're doing our covers a year out, usually.
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So right now I'm currently working on what am I working on?
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I think I'm working on fall winter 27 titles.
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So they're books that will come out in like January, February of next year.
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So we're one year out on them.
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And yeah, our for our imprint, I currently mostly work with Wednesday books, which is a like YA romance thriller, um, queer authors, a lot of like fun YA stuff.
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So our editors will bring us usually like 10 to 15 titles, and then some teams with more than that titles will have more artists, but right now it's just me and my manager for Wednesday books.
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And so between the two of us, we will take those like 10 to 15 titles.
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Um, and so yeah, I'll like let my manager know I'm really interested in like this, this, and this.
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Like personally, I really love like thriller mystery horror kind of covers.
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I have a lot of fun with that.
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Um, I did the cover for Moonsick recently, which is like a werewolf, like it's almost like a COVID kind of world, but it's like a werewolf disease people are getting.
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And anyway, the cover for that was really fun to do.
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That sounds fun.
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Yeah, but so yeah, our our the author editor will and auditor will give us like ideas for the cover, comparable covers in the market right now that they want to like look towards um and stuff.
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And then I will sketch out ideas, which I don't know if everyone still does this, but I'm very traditional.
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So I'll like physically in my sketchbook draw ideas and I'll look at other books in the genre for inspiration, and I'll look like on Pinterest, of course, see what's like trending with like keywords from the book.
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And then for some books, if they want like a really detailed cover of, I'm trying to think of one that I did this for.
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Um, for a cover like A Curious Kind of Magic by Mara Rutherford that I did, um, they'll I can ask for the manuscript and I'll actually read like a lot of the book and get like real ideas from in the book because sometimes I like to pull a lot of specific symbols, put those on the cover.
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So sometimes I work reading the manuscript into my process, but some books author has like really clear ideas, so I don't really have to read anything.
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I just go where they're pointing me.
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Um, so yeah, I do like physical sketches and then I turn those into digital sketches.
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Either my two routes I go is like actually illustrating using Procreate or Photoshop on my iPad, or I will do photo manipulation with like stock photos or other photos that we get, and I'll like Photoshop wizard them into something fun and different than they originally were.
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So those are my two with a lot of like thrillery books these days, we do like photo manipulation and like scary hand lettering kind of vibe.
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But then with romance books, I'm sure you guys know illustration is king.
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Like even like romance fantasy, we love to see fantastical illustrations, but then like contemporary romance, we love like a cute couple illustration on the cover right now.
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So I I do try to do both where I can.
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But like you mentioned, sometimes we do hire out an illustrator.
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And so in that case, I'll like sketch ideas for my cover and I'll show them to my editor team, and then we'll like come up with artists that we like find on Instagram or find through agents, or sometimes I even just like see a book covered that I'm like, that's amazing.
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I have to work with this artist and I'll look them up and contact them.
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And so in those cases, I'll like we as a team will hire that illustrator.
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I'll give them my sketches, I'll give them like sometimes the manuscript, any ideas that I have, and then we go through them for like giving us a sketch, giving us a final, things like that.
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Oh, that sounds so fun.
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How how long does that take?
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Because I'm sure like if part of that is like, oh, I have to read the whole manuscript, like it would take a long time to come up with the cover.
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What is your turnaround process and like what do your different deadlines look like?
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So we start with a cover conference, which is where the editors show us all the titles for the season that's a year out.
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And then I would say we have about three and a half to four months to have those covers finalized.
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So it's like, which might seem long to some people, but for me, like three and a half to four months to get art done.
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And like you said, we get everything has to be approved through, I would say maybe like four rounds of people.
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And if any of those rounds pushes back, it like goes back to the beginning, and then I have to get it approved by all the rounds again.
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And you're working on multiple covers at a time as you do this, right?
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Yeah, yeah.
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Since I'm new, I only started officially as a junior designer in December of 2025.
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No, 24, because I worked all of 2025.
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Um, so it's been like a little over a year that I've been an official junior designer.
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And so I've been getting three to four titles per season.
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And then my manager Carrie is fully doing like 10, 12.
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Like she's amazing.
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I don't know how I'll ever get to that point.
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But yeah.
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So like for me, four is plenty to keep me busy.
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Are there any that you're working on right now that you're really excited about that you're like, hey, put this on your Goodreads TV R.
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It'll be out next year?
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Oh my gosh.
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I I mean, there's one I'm there's a few that I'm really excited about, but I don't know which ones they've like teased yet.
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Like I don't want to see the title until it's officially out.
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Um, let me think.
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Do they change the title a lot because of spacing issues where it's like, oh, this is too long, it won't fit.
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Like as a layout artist, are you ever like this is this title needs to be three words longer?
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Or like, like, does it ever work like that?
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Like, how does it-literally that comes up and the title doesn't get changed often enough, in my opinion?
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Because yeah, it's like sometimes an author will be in love with their title, and then I'm like, I there's no way.
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Like, the hardest for me is one long word.
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When it's one long word, I'm like, what myself's like with the book Moon Sick, which that's like not too long a word, but it is just one word.
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So I had like a lot of trouble, like, and we wanted it to be like a title-focused cover without characters on it.
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So I was having trouble making the title like big.
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So if you ever see the cover of that one, I did, I made it like moon-sick, which we don't always do, but at that one I got approval to do.
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So I was like, oh, thank goodness.
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Because it looks so much bigger to have that stacked than like one long eight-letter word.
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But the one that I'm running into a lot these days is the word necromancers.
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I've had that in a couple of books, and it's like, I listen, I love a necromancer book, but the that word is so long, and then that's when they don't want me to break up.
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But so every once in a while they'll change the title for like balancing issues, but not as often as I would like.
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That is fascinating.
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See, I was just saying before this started that as a non-illustrator, if you like, I would not have intelligent questions, and I would never I would never in a million years as a writer think, okay, let me not put necromancer in my title because it would not fit on the cover of a book.
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Like that is of like duh, of course.
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Yeah, that would be hard.
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No, it's it seems obvious to me, but yeah, it's it's something people don't even think about.
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And but it is, it's my job to make it look good.
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So I I do everything that I have to do to make someone's perfect title fit.
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But every once in a while, it is it is so nice when I get a book that comes to me and it's like four words long and the words aren't very long, and I'm like, oh perfect.
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This is gonna be so easy.
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So is it just you?
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Like you own a cover and you're the designer, or there besides someone that you would hire out, is there anyone else that you work with or are you like owning that cover?
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Um, well, as far as owning goes, I think as a like official employee of McMillan, the covers I do for them, they own.
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I do have like credit on every book as the designer.
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And when I work with an illustrator, if I like provide the sketch idea for them to work off of, and if I do the typography, like um when dealing with dragons, which Maria said that you guys saw, um, I love that cover.
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But so that one I had reached out to Charlie Bowater to do the illustration, and I gave her like an initial sketch that she obviously took and made amazing.
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But I gave her that sketch, and then when she gave it back to me, I did all the wording on it.
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So like the title I created and like wrapped it around her illustration.
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So in that case, I the credit is like designed by me and then illustration by Charlie.
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But sometimes if I hire an illustrator and I'm like, hey, we don't have any ideas, we love your style.
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Here's the book, like sketch something and we'll see if it works.
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In those cases, I don't even bother putting my name on it.
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If they do like the typography and the sketch and everything, and I'm just curating, then you know, they get all the credit.
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But if I go in and micromanage and do the title and stuff, then I like to put our names together.
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It's like a joint project.
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Yeah.
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Well, someone from the outside, that's very yeah.
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Like, what's the difference between design and illustration?
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And I think you've explained it really well that like it was your concept, but they're the one that drew it.
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That makes sense.
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The concept, and and in a lot of cases, the designer is doing the typography.
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Some really talented illustrators can do both the typography and the illustration.
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Like, I work a lot with Vera.
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I'm gonna say her last name wrong because it's so hard, it's very long, but it's like Durmanovsky.
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I cannot say it right.
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But she's extremely talented.
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And when I have her do covers for me, she will hand letter the title and it looks amazing.
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And so I don't have to do too much when she's helping me out.
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But a lot of illustrators, they like to focus on just the art and like maybe don't have a design background, and so they, you know, won't touch the title, and so I'm more than happy to do that.
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Typography is like my first love, and then illustration is my second love, but I love them both.
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Yeah, I love some of the hand lettering you had on your Instagram.
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Um is it so when you say layout artist versus cover designer, is it like you're doing the front, the spine, and the back cover, or is part of that layout, like can you explain the difference between the two jobs and like what other what other jobs you work with in-house to put all of this together?
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Yeah, totally.
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So I would say like on my side as cover designer, we do the front cover, the spine, and the back cover.
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So when I first started as an intern for Millen, I was an intern for like a year and then a contractor for a year, and then now I'm a full-time employee.
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But when I was just an intern, I obviously wasn't making covers yet.
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So what you start by doing is we call them mechanicals or mechs.
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And that's where the cover designers will all like when you're going for approval and showing it to the author and everything, you're just making the front cover, the like six by nine image.
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You don't worry about the rest yet.
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And then once it's approved and made it through all the cycles, then it will go to either sometimes that same designer, but a lot of times, like designers under you that don't have as much work to do.
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Like I said, my boss has like 12 titles, so she can't always set all of them up.
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So the mechanical would come to me where I would take one of my fellow designers' front cover and I would make the spine based off their design and the back cover based off their design.
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So when I first started as an intern, I would like go to Barnes and Noble and be like, Oh, I made that spine, I made that spine.
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And like my my name wasn't on anything anywhere because I wasn't the designer, but I was like showing my family, like, I did this back cover, I did the spine.
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So that it that's really fun in itself, too.
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But so that's us cover designers.
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We're doing the front, the spine, the back, and we are the ones like setting everything up for printing.
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So, like, or everything on the cover for printing.
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So, like the effects like spot glossing and embossing and like matte finish versus gloss finish.
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We have to like work with the production team to make sure all of that is good.
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But layout design, we usually just call it interiors here.
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And so interiors is in charge of all like everything inside the book.
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I never see that stuff at all these days until the book is like printed.
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And then I'll be like, oh man, the you know, the title page looks so great.
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I hadn't even seen this.
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So yeah, interiors is totally their own department.
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And a lot of the time, as long as the timeline goes well, like right now, I'm having some people in interiors reach out to me where they're like, hey, do you have this cover done?
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Because like the cover design can influence the style of the inside, you know, design.
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And so a lot of time they'll be asking me, and if I'm like, no, it's not ready yet, like we don't have anything approved, they're like, Oh, okay, well, I'll just I'll try and wing it for now.
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You know what I mean?
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So it's like we are we're all a team that feeds each other.
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And um, so yeah, interiors does all that.
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And then I would say the last one that is part of like the design community would be marketing.
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So whenever we finish covers, we feed them out to marketing, and they're the ones who do like, you know, Instagram posts, they're the ones sending arcs to people to read and everything.
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They're making like advertisements that have the cover in it.
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They make things called sell sheets where it has like the cover, all this information about the book, and they send that to bookstores to get them to like, you know, buy copies before it comes out.
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So marketing does all that stuff after the fact.
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So us in cover design, we're just doing the physical, like cover spine, back cover.
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That's it.
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Is there ever any overlap where it's like, oh hey, you did hand lettering for the cover?
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Can you hand letter numbers for the chapter numbers on the interior or something like that, where they're like reaching out to you or like, oh hey, we need like a promo image from the same illustrator that you worked with or something?
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Not too often.
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What happens most often is once I finish a cover, marketing asks for like the layered files so that they can get in there.
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And if they want to like pull the illustration and use it somewhere else, they can.
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If they want, if they want that lettering, like most of the time we'll use a font and so they can pull that font and do it.
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When I do hand letter, that is where it gets trickier because they don't usually ask me to like write something else and replicate it.
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My I did the cover for The Thrashers by Julie Soto, and that one has hand lettering, and that was one where like we had a lot of promo for it.
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That they were like, What's the font you used for the title?
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And I'm like, No, I hand lettered it.
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And they were like, Oh, okay, we'll just figure something out.
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Like, I don't know.
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No, they didn't have me do anything like that.
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I and I also had like slightly tangent for the thrashers.
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That one, I was a contractor when I created it, not a full-time employee.
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So I do own the rights to that cover a little bit.
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And so that one has been published in a couple other languages, like at a German publisher and a French publisher.
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And so they'll reach out to me for the cover design and I give it to them, and then I have to tell them like it's not a font.
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Like I wrote the title, so they have to change it to the French version or the German version.
00:17:49.039 --> 00:17:53.519
And both times they didn't have me hand letter it, so I think they figured it out on their own also.
00:17:53.599 --> 00:17:55.519
So he's got someone to ape it.
00:17:55.759 --> 00:17:56.559
Yeah, I guess so.
00:17:56.640 --> 00:17:57.119
I'm not sure.
00:17:57.279 --> 00:17:59.759
I haven't gotten to see those ones printed yet, but I'm excited.
00:18:00.079 --> 00:18:03.920
Does the author of the book or like the illustrator that you hired, do they have any input?
00:18:04.000 --> 00:18:04.960
Do they collaborate with you?
00:18:05.039 --> 00:18:12.160
Or is it a little bit more of like a hierarchy of like you being kind of their art director to some degree or explaining to them how it's gonna happen?
00:18:12.559 --> 00:18:13.680
No, not at all.
00:18:13.839 --> 00:18:30.319
I would say the hierarchy is probably editors have like I because I think, well, I mean, I hate to say it's a hierarchy, like none of us are above each other, but like the editors and the authors are working together as a team, usually, and so they'll together have an idea of a cover.
00:18:30.559 --> 00:18:34.960
And then most of the time I don't have any direct contact with the author.
00:18:35.279 --> 00:18:42.960
I have contact with the editor, and so I will show my ideas to the editor, and then sometimes it takes a few rounds for just them to approve it.
00:18:43.119 --> 00:18:50.960
And then once they really like it, then they will show it to the author, like outside of me, and then they'll come back to me with the author's feedback.
00:18:51.200 --> 00:18:53.359
So the author does have a lot of input in it.
00:18:53.440 --> 00:18:59.200
Like I would say the editors and the authors have more input than I do, and my and my art director, Carrie.
00:18:59.759 --> 00:19:05.039
We are often like fighting for like I promise this is this is in the genre, people are gonna love this.
00:19:05.119 --> 00:19:06.240
And they know what they're talking about.
00:19:06.400 --> 00:19:20.160
Like the editors have been here for so long, so they're they're very good at being like, you know, this doesn't look big, or this, you know, this one looks more like you know, clickable than this one, things like that or pickupable.
00:19:20.400 --> 00:19:32.240
Um, so I understand why they're in charge, but no, often we have the least say, like we make the covers, we advocate for the covers, and then it's up to the editor, author to like it.
00:19:32.400 --> 00:19:40.240
And so once like the editors love it, because the author, once the author loves it, which like that can have back and forth, then we go to the sales team.
00:19:40.400 --> 00:19:43.359
And sales team is almost the final say.
00:19:43.839 --> 00:19:50.400
So at the like, we'll have a sales meeting and then a sales conference where this doesn't usually happen.
00:19:50.480 --> 00:19:54.240
Like, usually once it gets to sales, it's like very done and they really like it.
00:19:54.400 --> 00:20:01.839
But every once in a while we'll have a cover come to sales, and then sales will push back and be like, we don't like this cover for like this, this, and this reason.
00:20:02.000 --> 00:20:18.559
And it's like, dang it, like I had gotten the editor and the author on board, and now we literally have to start over, which I think MoonSick was my last one that this happened, where like I went through so many rounds of approval and then it got to sales team and got sent back, and we had to start over.
00:20:18.720 --> 00:20:20.319
And then you'll never believe this.
00:20:20.400 --> 00:20:26.559
It gets all the way back to sales team, they approve it, we're all happy, and then it goes to representatives.
00:20:26.799 --> 00:20:34.160
So, like, sales will now pitch this book to all of their like um contacts they have at bookstores.
00:20:34.240 --> 00:20:40.160
And then our Barnes Noble rep came back to us and was like, hey, we like this book, but we don't like how the cover looks.
00:20:40.400 --> 00:20:45.200
If you make it if you make it look more like this, then we'll like pitch it harder.
00:20:45.359 --> 00:20:52.640
And so then it's up to us like, do we redo the whole cover so that Barnes and Noble will pitch it harder or do we stick to our guns?
00:20:52.799 --> 00:20:57.039
I think that one we did end up changing it some more because we really wanted Barnes and Noble to push it.
00:20:57.119 --> 00:20:58.960
Obviously, that's one of our biggest sellers.
00:20:59.519 --> 00:21:10.480
So that's why to me, I was like, the levels are editor, author, sales, but then there's a secret fourth level of approval that I didn't know about, and that is the like contacts of companies.
00:21:10.720 --> 00:21:12.400
Oh my gosh, that sounds like so much.
00:21:12.559 --> 00:21:18.720
Like on average, to give people just a general idea, like how many rounds of edits do you usually do on a cover?
00:21:18.960 --> 00:21:23.839
I would say for me, probably like four, I'd say three or four.
00:21:24.000 --> 00:21:25.440
And like to me, that's good.
00:21:25.599 --> 00:21:27.440
Like three or four is great.
00:21:27.759 --> 00:21:34.079
Moonsick was probably my record, like I don't even know, 20, maybe like 20 rounds, probably.
00:21:34.240 --> 00:21:46.000
And what's sad is like in that when I start, I'll make like four or five cover ideas, and like most of the time we'll be like, I like this one's direction, but do like all these changes to it.
00:21:46.160 --> 00:21:50.160
And so then I'll do another round where it's like, okay, they're all this direction, but they're all different.
00:21:50.400 --> 00:21:57.200
And so when you have 20 rounds, there are some like good cover ideas in there that just get like killed, you know, or like nixed.
00:21:57.440 --> 00:21:59.759
And so that's always funny looking back.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:02.720
in my early ones and be like, wait, I love that idea for a cover.
00:22:02.799 --> 00:22:04.720
Like maybe I can try and use this somewhere else.
00:22:04.880 --> 00:22:09.119
But no, I would say on a on a good average cover, three or four.
00:22:09.359 --> 00:22:11.920
No, that's probably that's probably a really good one.
00:22:12.079 --> 00:22:13.200
Maybe five or six.
00:22:13.440 --> 00:22:18.559
Maybe five or six is more average, but I'll take that over 20 rounds any day.
00:22:18.799 --> 00:22:35.119
But usually like by the end, usually once it's been approved by the editor and the author and we're good, it'll be just like a few more rounds of minor changes where they're like, we like it, but maybe this color or can you brighten it up and like pull focus to the title?
00:22:35.359 --> 00:22:37.599
Those kind of things, which that's like easy.
00:22:37.839 --> 00:22:46.559
But I do have two covers I'm working on right now that I illustrated and both of them, like on the first round, the editors were like, we like this one, make these changes.
00:22:46.640 --> 00:22:47.920
And I'm like, hot dog.
00:22:48.000 --> 00:22:49.279
That's not really nice.
00:22:49.440 --> 00:22:52.799
It's so nice when you send something to someone and they like one of them.
00:22:53.039 --> 00:22:53.359
Yeah.
00:22:53.519 --> 00:22:54.559
I was really nervous.
00:22:54.640 --> 00:23:03.759
So once I make those changes it'll go to the author and then I can only hope that they'll really like one of the choices and then sales and reps and everybody.
00:23:03.920 --> 00:23:12.480
But sometimes it gets really could you tell us a little bit about your use of hand lettering because I noticed you you do that in a fair amount of your covers.
00:23:12.640 --> 00:23:16.880
Are are there like certain rules that you follow when working on a book that utilizes it?
00:23:16.960 --> 00:23:30.480
Like what does your process normally look like when you're when you're doing hand lettering specifically instead of a font yeah I mean I think the reason I do it a lot is because of my illustration background and my typography background.
00:23:30.720 --> 00:23:37.599
I love like physically drawing out my cover ideas and like drawing out the titles when I do that.
00:23:37.759 --> 00:23:46.160
And so a lot of the time when I show my like manager that she'll be like oh I love how you do the title like just hand letter it rather than finding font.
00:23:46.319 --> 00:23:53.519
And so especially with like thrillery books right now hand lettered fonts are very like in like they jump out.
00:23:53.680 --> 00:24:00.079
It gives it like a spooky you know like handwritten like ransom note or something kind of vibe.
00:24:00.319 --> 00:24:07.920
So that's why all the thriller books I've been getting I always will try out a hand lettered version and then like a regular font version.
00:24:08.079 --> 00:24:12.160
And yeah it really just defend depends on the vibe of the cover.
00:24:12.319 --> 00:24:21.759
Cause sometimes the editors and the author team will see it and be like we really like like this font that you used but like maybe give it like more of a handwritten vibe.
00:24:21.920 --> 00:24:32.319
So yeah it really goes back and forth but then sometimes I'll like draw something and they'll be like we like it but it looks like too young or something like try using this font and that's going to like boost up the age.
00:24:33.359 --> 00:24:40.240
So yeah it really goes back and forth but I just personally love to like write my own typography and draw and everything.
00:24:40.319 --> 00:24:43.279
So I I do it as often as I can get away with it.
00:24:44.559 --> 00:25:19.519
Interesting what you said about like boosting up the age with a font are are there certain like font families that you would say are kind of definitively middle grade YA adult absolutely absolutely yeah exactly so when when we have like say like an adult mystery you know like oh man I was gonna list on a mystery author and now I can't think of anyone but like you know what I mean like the classic adult mystery books they tend to have and thriller books they tend to have like a bold sans serif big title I'm trying to like think of an example of one and of course I'm blinking.
00:25:19.839 --> 00:26:01.920
James Patterson is the right bam yeah no exactly like a James Patterson where it's like maybe guy running on the cover and like scenery of action like that if you have like a handwritten title it doesn't look as like it's not going to look like normal but when it has like bold sans serif like title in your face you're like okay this is like a thriller book that's one of the things I find most fascinating about typography is like typography even if you don't think about it it does make you think something so like I'm sure if you've probably seen in other places people will use like the Harry Potter font for something.
00:26:02.079 --> 00:26:08.319
And even if it's like this is a clothing brand but it's like using that font you're gonna see it and be like magic?
00:26:08.559 --> 00:26:11.680
Why is clothing brand like magical you know what I mean?
00:26:11.839 --> 00:26:24.799
Yeah and same with like Comic Sands is one people love to like troll on now but that's one that when you see it you think like young you think grade school you think like child friendly because it is like a very child friendly font.
00:26:24.960 --> 00:26:30.960
So a lot of fonts like make you feel a thing even if you don't like realize that you're analyzing it.
00:26:31.119 --> 00:26:47.039
And so the same absolutely goes with covers like you can you can definitely like age it up with a really bold sans serif or like obviously if you use a serif that's the one where it has like the feet on the ends and that one that's gonna look old fashioned.
00:26:47.200 --> 00:27:21.599
So if you have like a super modern contemporary romance book and it has like an old fashioned serif font on it you're gonna be like confused you're gonna be like is this set in like a different time period all these things where you don't realize it but it you are picking up on the vibe of the font yeah I'm wondering if you have thoughts on self-publishing covers and what makes something like why do why can you tell that some covers are self-published like what what do you think self-published authors should do?
00:27:22.160 --> 00:27:23.200
What rules are they breaking?
00:27:23.440 --> 00:27:24.480
Yeah what's happening?
00:27:24.799 --> 00:27:35.359
Yeah I mean that's a great question because I really do think that typography is the key I know that's I'm harping on typography too much but that's I really think the core of book covers.
00:27:35.440 --> 00:27:36.720
I mean that's what you're good at.
00:27:36.960 --> 00:28:06.720
Yeah I mean the illustration is so important the imagery is so important but I have seen because I I used to work at Book Logics Publishing which was an indie publisher and so that you know I don't know I was a designer there and I was really trying to like make things look big but that was a whole different process where it with indie publishing it's just usually just the author and then the designer there's no go-between there's no like you're not usually getting other opinions.
00:28:06.960 --> 00:28:33.759
So a lot of times in indie publishing the author will be like well no this is like I want it to look like this and then you can try and make it look like well designed and like it'll fit somewhere but a lot of indie authors I would say have the problem of like I don't want to say too involved but like they won't let go of their idea for the cover and like trust a designer and I think that's what makes it look smaller sometimes.
00:28:34.000 --> 00:29:11.519
I've worked with a couple indie authors where they like really trust me and they're like hey you're the designer like here's some ideas but you do what you think is best and they like go with the covers that I give them and in my opinion I think those covers look really great and look make it look much bigger and like one I have a best friend Julie well she goes by JM Fail day of her books that I worked on her cover The Crow Lord and The Sun Child and they I mean those ones she gets so many compliments on those covers I get so many compliments on doing them and she is like an independently um an independent author who does all her own stuff.
00:29:11.759 --> 00:29:20.559
But I think that us working together like designer and author and her trusting me helped it look a lot bigger because I do I think typography is the key.
00:29:20.720 --> 00:29:28.160
So even if you hire a really talented illustrator as an author like I was saying not all illustrators like know a lot about typography.
00:29:28.400 --> 00:29:37.359
So if you like have them do a beautiful illustration but then they just throw the title on it, I think that's gonna look like it's gonna look smaller right away.
00:29:37.519 --> 00:29:55.759
Which I say smaller and bigger because that's just terms we use in the industry it's not not a bad thing but it's very like oh this is a big book this is James Patterson this is these names that's big or if it's like sometimes independent authors that people don't know as much will say like oh this looks kind of small this isn't you know what I mean?
00:29:56.000 --> 00:30:11.359
Yeah no I mean I think even I I think everyone who looks at a book cover can tell it's like reading a different language almost and it's like somehow you speak parts of it fluently and the rest of us are like we can tell this isn't quite right but we don't know or like you said smaller.
00:30:11.440 --> 00:30:21.599
I like that smaller and bigger like like this was professionally done or this is something that someone put together um with less skill.
00:30:22.079 --> 00:30:24.240
And yeah that's fascinating.
00:30:24.559 --> 00:30:43.119
Yeah we live in a time where it's like it has never been easier for non-designers to just make their own like art and covers like with AI and Canva and there's just lots of programs where someone who has no design background can be like well I can do this like here's the image I want and here's the title and boom.
00:30:43.279 --> 00:30:48.240
And it's like you you'll see the difference like I don't know that's how that's how I feel.
00:30:48.400 --> 00:31:05.359
So I I advocate for hiring artists and hiring designers who've done this for a long time and they can there's a secret sauce that's hard to explain but they can put that on there and I think give it the professional look that you might be missing if you just make it yourself in Canva.
00:31:05.920 --> 00:31:26.640
So like if say if there's an indie author who's listening to this and is like oh that's great advice let me hire a a designer specifically to do like the the typography for the image that I want where would you say they should look to find a designer and what price range should they expect and aside from like trust the designer like what would you want them to come in with to make your job easier?
00:31:26.960 --> 00:31:27.920
Really good questions.
00:31:28.079 --> 00:31:43.440
I think for I mean I would suggest the ways that I find like illustrators and it goes the same for designers would be Instagram is like the biggest thing right now and look at covers that you already like like that's a really big one.
00:31:43.680 --> 00:31:53.839
If you I know like a lot of traditionally booked covers like you might not be able to get those designers but just keep looking out for covers that you like contact those people or check out their Instagrams.
00:31:54.079 --> 00:32:06.720
Most artists will say in their bio like commission's open or something and it literally never hurts to just message any of them and be like hi I have like a I'd love you to work on my cover for this and just see if they're available.
00:32:06.960 --> 00:32:12.240
I even like in the industry I get lots of no's from illustrators who are just too busy.
00:32:12.480 --> 00:32:17.119
So don't be afraid of a couple no's like there's so many artists out there that can totally help.
00:32:17.200 --> 00:32:28.720
So yeah I would say like look every book that you love the cover just like see who designed it see you who illustrated it look them up on Instagram see if they take commissions I would totally like suggest going that way.
00:32:28.880 --> 00:32:44.799
And then as far as price range I mean we're living in a time where that varies greatly and in recent years it's really gone up unfortunately but the cost of living has gone up so obviously paying illustrators for freelance it's gonna go up.
00:32:45.039 --> 00:32:54.079
Um I would say usually our budget for paying an illustrator for just like the cover illustration is like two to four thousand dollars for one.
00:32:54.799 --> 00:32:57.359
So that's like a very normal price range.
00:32:57.599 --> 00:33:02.400
Obviously most independent authors like have a much smaller budget for what they can do.
00:33:02.559 --> 00:33:13.680
So I know like me personally I change my rates a little bit if it's like a smaller independent author and if it's someone who I really like want to help support and everything, you know?
00:33:13.920 --> 00:33:17.440
So I it'll I'll do less than 2000 for sure.
00:33:17.759 --> 00:33:41.119
But um but yeah just expect that that is about how much it costs for a cover now but it is an investment you know like people do judge a book by the cover and it's the first thing that people see so it you do have to you got to pay those artists sometimes which is why it is tempting to try and do AI or something that's cheaper but I promise you you're gonna regret it in the long run.
00:33:41.359 --> 00:33:45.839
People are not loving AI covers right now so don't don't be tempted.
00:33:45.920 --> 00:33:58.960
I'm warning the viewers yes and just a note it is unethical it scrapes from artists without their consent and it is illegal to copyright AI art so anybody could use your image for whatever they want on the cover if it's AI generated.
00:33:59.440 --> 00:34:05.359
Hey future Maria here with just a quick correction um I misspoke it is not illegal to copyright AI artwork.
00:34:05.440 --> 00:34:09.039
What I meant to say was that you cannot copyright AI art.
00:34:09.199 --> 00:34:12.639
There is no way to lay legal claim to AI generated work.
00:34:13.519 --> 00:34:14.719
Exactly very good.
00:34:14.960 --> 00:34:20.400
I and then what do you think they could bring to you to make your job easy as easy as possible?
00:34:20.880 --> 00:34:21.440
Totally.
00:34:21.679 --> 00:35:07.039
So I mean I the way that we do it I think is the easiest way with like a cover brief which sometimes when I've worked with independent artists who haven't or artists independent authors who haven't done too much like book cover or working with book cover designers I sometimes will give them a blank cover brief and be like you know please give me your book title um give me the genre that your book's going to be in please give me like a two paragraph description of your book um you know describe to me your main characters and what they're like the setting and then for me a really important thing is like comparable covers like show me at least five other covers that you're like I want my book to sit right next to these guys.
00:35:07.199 --> 00:35:12.559
Like this is my genre the I love the way that these five covers are have been designed.
00:35:12.719 --> 00:35:30.480
And so that helps a lot with because you know you want to make sure that you're getting that vibe like I was saying with typography and with everything if someone comes to me with like a thriller book I want to make sure that I'm giving them a cover that's going to sit in the thriller section and not be like looking like contemporary romance or something.
00:35:30.639 --> 00:35:47.679
You know so yeah any description of your book and you know I would love I love getting ideas from the author where they're like I imagine the cover looks like this and is evoking this emotion and I really like pink and green color palette for the vibe of my book like I will totally take all those suggestions.
00:35:47.920 --> 00:36:04.400
But I will say like be flexible and be like open-minded and to where like when the artist gives you covers, even if it's not exactly what was in your head because that's the hardest thing is when an author's like I can see it exactly in my head I need you to do this, this, this, and this.
00:36:04.559 --> 00:36:08.880
And then when I try my hardest, they're like it's good, but that's not what I was seeing in my head.
00:36:09.199 --> 00:36:11.760
It's really hard for an artist to do that.
00:36:12.000 --> 00:36:21.360
But it's I think the best covers are when you have your idea, the artist takes your idea, makes it beautiful and it's like a blending of your two ideas.
00:36:21.519 --> 00:36:23.840
I think those are the most beautiful covers.
00:36:24.079 --> 00:36:25.760
Right because it's it's collaborative.
00:36:26.000 --> 00:36:26.239
Yeah.
00:36:26.559 --> 00:36:39.519
I do appreciate uh you talking a little bit about uh pricing for freelance I'm wondering for people who are interested in like in-house work at publishing companies and are not like quite sure what to expect or what that kind of job would entail.
00:36:39.679 --> 00:36:43.199
Could you talk a little bit about like do you work standard hours?
00:36:43.440 --> 00:36:44.559
What's the salary range?
00:36:44.719 --> 00:36:45.519
Are there benefits?
00:36:45.679 --> 00:36:48.880
Like what would people think to expect for a job like yours?
00:36:49.280 --> 00:37:02.320
Um yeah so I can speak on what we how what how it is at McMillan I don't know how the other big five are the other four um but yeah for us I we are still completely remote.
00:37:02.400 --> 00:37:15.760
So we have an office in New York but I am currently living in Dallas Texas because we're totally remote um and I I mean we started doing this during COVID and it's just worked really well for everybody.
00:37:15.920 --> 00:37:22.320
So our CEO really pushed for us to like stay remote um and everyone loves it.
00:37:22.480 --> 00:37:28.719
So yeah I I work in-house 40 hours a week as a full-time salaried employee.
00:37:30.320 --> 00:37:36.400
I'll say that my salary is lower than I was expecting when I got into this industry.
00:37:36.639 --> 00:37:47.119
And I do know other designers who work as a designer in like other um industries not in publishing and they do make significantly more than I do.
00:37:47.280 --> 00:37:55.199
So I will say that passion is a large part of publishing like I know other people in publishing too where they're like I love this job so much.
00:37:55.360 --> 00:38:00.000
I do have like a job on the side because I don't get paid enough but I'm here because I love it.
00:38:00.159 --> 00:38:14.480
So that will would be my one warning to people getting into the industry is like at least where I'm at in it it's not I'm not doing it for the money let's say that way I I definitely I get paid enough to live but not much more than that.
00:38:14.719 --> 00:38:22.960
So that is why me and a lot of other publishing designers we do freelance on the side and that like helps supplement my paycheck a lot.
00:38:23.199 --> 00:38:24.880
So so that's its own thing.
00:38:24.960 --> 00:38:38.320
I'm I don't know I don't want to complain too much because I do love my job and I love my company so I'm not like obviously if it wasn't enough I would just leave the job but I I love what I'm doing.
00:38:38.559 --> 00:38:44.079
So if people out there have a passion for books and it's what you've always wanted to do, I say absolutely go for it.
00:38:44.159 --> 00:38:50.639
Get in there but do keep in mind that I don't know that you're not going to be a millionaire doing this job.
00:38:51.119 --> 00:38:51.280
Yeah.
00:38:51.519 --> 00:39:08.400
I think we hear that from all sides of the publishing industry right from the editor from editors especially when they're starting out and from authors we you know it's yeah it's something that you love but you definitely should be fairly compensated.
00:39:08.559 --> 00:39:20.159
So yeah it's yeah it's a whole thing and it's I mean don't get me started on New York taxes because I I am a New York state employee even though I live in Texas where there's no state tax.
00:39:20.320 --> 00:39:22.239
So I pay New York state taxes.
00:39:22.400 --> 00:39:26.239
And so oh my gosh it's highway robbery.
00:39:26.400 --> 00:39:37.119
So anyway that's a whole other thing but no I will we're everything in publishing is just so dependent on the like you know the fan base and the people buying books.
00:39:37.280 --> 00:39:44.480
So like we have really good years with really good books and then we have not as good years where we didn't have as many like best selling books.
00:39:44.559 --> 00:39:47.679
And so it's definitely the same for especially independent authors.
00:39:47.840 --> 00:39:54.159
They're like you know I'm putting a lot of money on this book and if it pops off and goes viral I'm doing great.
00:39:54.320 --> 00:40:07.360
And if like not as many people are seeing it like oh no I'm still in the red it's definitely I think this is a this is a career for people who are passionate about books and not people who are passionate about having a lot of money.
00:40:08.079 --> 00:40:09.039
That's fair.
00:40:09.599 --> 00:40:25.519
Is it the sort of job that you have like insurance or benefits from or is it just the no absolutely so that's why I would say like I I interviewed at other publishers but I really wanted to stay with McMillan because I love McMillan the most out of everyone.
00:40:25.679 --> 00:40:30.480
So out of the five they're the only ones that are still a privately owned company.
00:40:30.639 --> 00:40:33.199
So we're not like publicly traded or anything.
00:40:33.360 --> 00:40:42.480
So it gives us a lot of like the employees still have a lot of control and we're not controlled by like you know, I don't know the stock market or something.
00:40:43.360 --> 00:40:47.360
But yeah so there's we work 40 hours a week I have great benefits.
00:40:47.519 --> 00:40:56.079
I have like unlimited sick days um which I'm sure that's just like at your manager's discretion which lucky for me I love my manager.
00:40:56.239 --> 00:40:57.199
She's amazing.
00:40:57.440 --> 00:40:59.119
Shout out Carrie Resnick.
00:41:00.079 --> 00:41:05.440
And so like we I have complete faith and trust in her and I feel like she has trust in me.
00:41:05.599 --> 00:41:10.320
And so I you know there's never anytime I need days off there's never a no.
00:41:10.480 --> 00:41:15.119
She's always like yes absolutely like just put it in the calendar you're good to go.
00:41:15.199 --> 00:41:16.400
Don't even worry about it.
00:41:16.559 --> 00:41:19.280
And I'm someone who like thinks about work all the time.
00:41:19.360 --> 00:41:25.280
So I'm very like okay I'm gonna be out this week but if you need anything just message me like don't be afraid to email me.
00:41:25.360 --> 00:41:30.000
And she's always like absolutely not this is your time off don't even look at your email.
00:41:30.159 --> 00:41:33.039
I'm not gonna message you and you're gonna be fine and we'll see you next week.
00:41:33.199 --> 00:41:37.519
So she's very good and and everyone else with I have a we have a whole team at St.
00:41:37.679 --> 00:41:44.559
Martin's publishing group which we're like a group within McMillan and then we have imprints within this group.
00:41:44.719 --> 00:41:49.519
So there's I think like 16 of us in this group and everyone is just the best.
00:41:49.679 --> 00:41:59.039
Like I can ask any of them for help, ask them for anything they're all very like work life boundaries and so a lot of them have kids.
00:41:59.119 --> 00:42:05.679
So a lot of the time they'll be like hey I have to like leave work early because I need to go pick up the kids and everyone's like yep no problem.
00:42:05.920 --> 00:42:14.719
Like we're very big on like your life comes first and then work comes second and we want you to like bring that joy that you have in your life to work.
00:42:14.880 --> 00:42:18.320
So everyone I've ever met at McMillan is very happy to be there.
00:42:18.480 --> 00:42:28.159
Like none of us are unhappy um and so yeah I don't know everyone I've talked to is just it feel if they say it's a family company and it does really feel like family to me.
00:42:28.239 --> 00:42:29.679
So that's why I love being here.
00:42:29.920 --> 00:42:38.639
Yeah oh my God HR pitch they need to yeah I'm like I want to go work for McMillan where line me up McMillan sounds great.
00:42:38.800 --> 00:42:47.920
Yeah um so for other people who think McMillan sounds great or one of the other big five what advice would you give to someone um hoping to break into the book design industry?
00:42:48.239 --> 00:42:55.360
Yeah I mean number one advice is how I got in and how the only way I know other people got in is through internships.
00:42:55.679 --> 00:43:02.400
So I was an intern when I was I think I was like 26 when I was an intern.
00:43:02.639 --> 00:43:05.199
And so obviously I felt very old.
00:43:05.360 --> 00:43:08.480
I was like oh no it's gonna be like college students.
00:43:08.559 --> 00:43:12.159
I graduated like four years ago I'm so nervous to be an intern.
00:43:12.320 --> 00:43:17.679
But honestly I had been applying to internships with all of the big five since college.
00:43:17.840 --> 00:43:22.880
So I would say there was a good like eight years that I applied to internships and never got any of them.
00:43:23.199 --> 00:43:37.599
And then randomly in 2023 I got an email back and they were like yeah let's interview you for this internship and I was like oh my God my first response in eight years and so I will say just don't give up it can take a long time.
00:43:38.000 --> 00:43:44.239
Um and I guess just in that time I was updating my portfolio and I was working at an independent publisher.
00:43:44.400 --> 00:43:50.960
So I think I was getting my credentials up and I know a lot of times you think like for an internship you don't have to have experience.
00:43:51.119 --> 00:43:59.360
It's a cutthroat world it's a cutthroat industry you do kind of need to have some experience when you're when you're doing or applying for internships.
00:43:59.440 --> 00:44:14.320
But I I do think it's a little bit like a lottery, also, because just so many people apply and there might be so many people qualified, but it is um a lot of the time just one human on the other end going through all these applications and they just pick what stands out to them.
00:44:14.559 --> 00:44:19.280
So I like you could be doing everything right and not getting that callback yet.
00:44:19.519 --> 00:44:23.760
You just got to keep doing it and keep trying until yours gets noticed.
00:44:24.000 --> 00:44:25.840
So I finally got noticed.
00:44:25.920 --> 00:44:28.079
I had the interview, I got the internship.
00:44:28.320 --> 00:44:33.440
And so once you were already in that door, then I was able to start like meeting people.
00:44:33.599 --> 00:44:43.199
It was all virtual, so it was a little slower going, but in the internship program, they do a lot of like, we're gonna have a presentation with all these people from this department and this department.
00:44:43.360 --> 00:44:47.280
So I was able to meet um a few people virtually that way.
00:44:47.519 --> 00:44:54.880
And my recommendation to anyone interning who wants to like make it a job, I just started like emailing anybody that I could.
00:44:55.039 --> 00:45:00.559
Because once you're in the company as an intern, like you have you can see everyone's emails most of the time.
00:45:00.800 --> 00:45:03.920
So I just started emailing everybody and being like, hi, I'm an intern.
00:45:04.079 --> 00:45:05.920
I'd love to chat with you about your job.
00:45:06.079 --> 00:45:10.239
And so I reached out to like designers and all kinds of different imprints.
00:45:10.400 --> 00:45:11.920
The company, I talked to all of them.
00:45:12.159 --> 00:45:13.440
All of them are so nice.
00:45:13.599 --> 00:45:14.639
No one ever said no.
00:45:14.800 --> 00:45:17.199
Like everyone talked to me, which was great.
00:45:17.440 --> 00:45:19.519
But all of them were like, Yeah, this is great.
00:45:19.599 --> 00:45:21.119
We're just not hiring right now.
00:45:21.360 --> 00:45:29.679
And I was like, okay, I'll like so I would keep all their emails on a list and be like, okay, I'm gonna reach back out in like six months and see if they're hiring then.
00:45:30.159 --> 00:45:32.480
So that's definitely something I would recommend.
00:45:32.639 --> 00:45:36.800
But I was just really fortunate that the team I was initially put with was St.
00:45:36.960 --> 00:45:40.159
Martin's Publishing Group and they're just an amazing group of people.
00:45:40.320 --> 00:45:46.639
And I really connected with Carrie and her boss Olga, are like two women that I just respect so much.
00:45:46.719 --> 00:45:48.880
But anyway, I loved working with them.
00:45:49.119 --> 00:45:55.360
And so when I finished as an intern, I kept in contact with the both of them and was just like, hey, here's what I'm doing.
00:45:55.599 --> 00:45:58.400
Like, you know, if you guys have anything going on, let me know.
00:45:58.559 --> 00:46:08.639
If you know anybody, Olga was super sweet, and she like gave me emails of people at other companies and she was like, reach out to these people, like, see if they're hiring, I know this guy, tell them I sent you.
00:46:08.800 --> 00:46:10.480
So she was an angel.
00:46:10.719 --> 00:46:16.960
So if you can break in as an intern and make friends with anybody, they will totally advocate for you, and it's so helpful.
00:46:17.199 --> 00:46:26.159
And so after doing that for a few months, they actually reached back out to me, Olga and Carrie, and they were like, you know, we have room for a contractor right now.
00:46:26.239 --> 00:46:33.519
So you could work with us as a contractor, which would just be part-time paid role, but you would like get to actually start working on covers.
00:46:33.599 --> 00:46:36.400
Whereas before I was just doing mechanicals as an intern.
00:46:36.639 --> 00:46:39.519
So I was like, absolutely, I would love to, thank you.
00:46:39.760 --> 00:46:43.280
And so I did that for like, I would say like eight months, maybe.
00:46:43.599 --> 00:46:49.840
Um, and I worked on some covers, loved it, had the best time.
00:46:50.079 --> 00:46:52.880
And then we had an imprint begin.
00:46:53.039 --> 00:46:56.559
So Saturday Books was just opened up last year.
00:46:56.800 --> 00:47:01.840
And so when that imprint opened up, Olga kind of moved over to take over that.
00:47:02.079 --> 00:47:05.840
So out of Wednesday books, she moved to Saturday Books, and Carrie moved up.
00:47:06.000 --> 00:47:10.719
And so they told me they were like, now that we've shifted over, we have room for another designer.
00:47:10.880 --> 00:47:14.800
So, like, my role was kind of created to be in Wednesday Books.
00:47:14.880 --> 00:47:16.480
And so I was so grateful.
00:47:16.719 --> 00:47:21.039
Started that of over a year ago, and yeah, it's been great ever since.
00:47:21.199 --> 00:47:26.559
So, like you said, it's definitely hard to break in, but once you do, it's all about like contacts.
00:47:26.639 --> 00:47:28.480
You just gotta keep emailing people.
00:47:28.639 --> 00:47:33.599
You gotta like, once you like make a good connection with someone, keep up with them.
00:47:33.840 --> 00:47:42.719
Um, like I have people who contact me, and I'm not always great at responding right away, but I will give back to everybody and I definitely help where I can.
00:47:42.960 --> 00:47:47.679
But yeah, I it's all about contacts and who you know in publishing, unfortunately.
00:47:48.320 --> 00:47:48.639
Yeah.
00:47:48.800 --> 00:47:51.119
Or fortunately, it sounds like you know some great people.
00:47:51.360 --> 00:47:56.960
Yeah, it's been fortunate for me, and I've been helping where I can with my other friends who want to get into publishing.
00:47:57.039 --> 00:48:02.000
But yeah, it's like I said, it's just not uh it's not a one-step, like, I want to get into publishing today.
00:48:02.159 --> 00:48:07.679
But just don't be afraid to do internships because, like I said, I was older than I thought.
00:48:07.760 --> 00:48:20.239
And then we have an intern right now who she's almost 30, I think, and she's done a complete career switch where she worked in like finance or something else for like years and years, and then in her 20s was like, you know what?
00:48:20.320 --> 00:48:24.000
I won't I love publishing and I love design and I'm gonna switch my career.
00:48:24.079 --> 00:48:27.840
And so now she's interning with us, and so yeah, it's never too late.
00:48:28.000 --> 00:48:29.519
Always apply to the internships.
00:48:29.679 --> 00:48:32.480
And if you see like assistant roles, definitely apply to that too.
00:48:32.559 --> 00:48:35.920
But sometimes those they really want more experience in the role.
00:48:36.000 --> 00:48:40.639
But yeah, just don't be afraid to apply to everything and don't be afraid to just message someone on LinkedIn.
00:48:40.880 --> 00:48:52.639
I did that for a little bit when I was job searching, where I just went on LinkedIn and looked at companies I was interested in and then looked at like who's their art director, who's this designer, and just message some of them and see like, are you hiring?
00:48:52.719 --> 00:48:55.360
Andor could you just meet with me to give me advice?
00:48:55.519 --> 00:49:02.320
And sometimes that's the best way to just get to know someone, and sometimes they'll keep you in mind, you know, down the line when they do have a job opening.
00:49:02.480 --> 00:49:03.440
Well, that's great advice.
00:49:03.519 --> 00:49:04.000
Thank you.
00:49:04.159 --> 00:49:04.480
Yeah.
00:49:04.639 --> 00:49:17.199
I I know we don't have too, too much longer, but um I I'd love to close with like, are there any resources from book design classes you've taken or your own work experience that you would want to share to potential listeners working on their own book design portfolios?
00:49:17.679 --> 00:49:18.400
Great question.
00:49:18.559 --> 00:49:24.639
I mean, I learned so much from the college that I went to, the Savannah College of Art and Design.
00:49:24.719 --> 00:49:28.480
That's where I learned everything I know about typography and everything.
00:49:28.639 --> 00:49:31.199
But I'm trying to think some resources.
00:49:31.519 --> 00:49:39.519
If you are not like going to college for art, I mean, any Adobe is still a very big part of our design process.
00:49:39.679 --> 00:49:42.800
So learning the Adobe programs, I think, is very important.
00:49:42.960 --> 00:49:46.559
A lot of like freelance illustrators just use Procreate, which is great.
00:49:46.639 --> 00:49:47.920
I use Procreate as well.
00:49:48.159 --> 00:49:48.880
Great resource.
00:49:49.039 --> 00:49:55.679
But if you want to get into like typography usage and more design, learning Adobe would definitely help.
00:49:55.840 --> 00:49:58.800
And there are Adobe classes like just on YouTube.
00:49:58.960 --> 00:50:01.280
You could just YouTube watch Adobe classes.
00:50:01.599 --> 00:50:07.760
So I would really recommend familiarizing yourself, especially with like Photoshop, InDesign, and Illustrator.
00:50:07.840 --> 00:50:10.000
Those are really the only three that I use.
00:50:10.239 --> 00:50:16.159
So if you just watch YouTube classes on how to do it, um, that's a great resource.
00:50:16.320 --> 00:50:28.559
I would say another one is, you know, you some designers I've talked to who are trying to get into the space, they're like, Yeah, I really want to do cover design, but I just haven't gotten any, like, no one's hired me for it.
00:50:28.719 --> 00:50:30.719
Just start making your own cover designs.
00:50:30.880 --> 00:50:38.880
I know a lot of people that like you just take your favorite books, redo the cover entirely, and be like, here are my ideas for these book covers.
00:50:39.039 --> 00:50:41.280
People will see that and be like, oh, I love your style.
00:50:41.519 --> 00:50:42.239
Can you do mine?
00:50:42.320 --> 00:50:44.239
So don't wait for the job that you want.
00:50:44.320 --> 00:50:50.800
Like, start doing it today with, you know, whatever skills you have now, and you will get better as you go.
00:50:50.960 --> 00:50:57.679
Like, especially with InDesign and Photoshop, like those things can be scary, especially if you're just like learning it through YouTube videos.
00:50:57.840 --> 00:51:03.679
But the more you practice with it and the more you like fail, the better your designs will be in the future.
00:51:03.760 --> 00:51:10.719
Because it's it's literally a they told us in art school, like you have to do something a thousand times before you're good at it once, kind of a thing.
00:51:10.880 --> 00:51:16.800
And with logo design, no joke in school, they we would have to sketch 100 logos minimum.
00:51:16.960 --> 00:51:20.880
You have to sketch 100 different ideas before you can like choose one of them.
00:51:21.119 --> 00:51:25.840
Because it's just like you have to get all the bad ideas out first before you get to the good ones.
00:51:25.920 --> 00:51:31.119
So I would just say, you know, practice, practice, start the job you want before you even have it.
00:51:31.440 --> 00:51:35.119
And yeah, YouTube is, I think, a really great free resource.
00:51:35.199 --> 00:51:36.400
I use it all the time.
00:51:36.559 --> 00:51:41.920
Anytime I have Adobe questions, I'm just like YouTube video how to do this in Photoshop.
00:51:42.159 --> 00:51:43.599
And I just go from there.
00:51:43.760 --> 00:51:46.480
But but I really loved taking classes with a professor.
00:51:46.559 --> 00:51:58.800
So if you have an art college near you that does any like graphic design typography classes, I super recommend it for anyone who wants to get into cover design because typography is really important.
00:51:59.280 --> 00:52:01.679
Oh, well, thank you so much for all the information.
00:52:01.920 --> 00:52:04.639
Um is there anything else you wanted to jump in with, Suzanne?
00:52:04.719 --> 00:52:06.719
I think I think we're close to the hour.
00:52:07.039 --> 00:52:07.360
Yeah.
00:52:07.599 --> 00:52:11.440
No, this is I feel like my mind has expanded.
00:52:11.760 --> 00:52:24.000
And it's funny, Maria uh is, I don't know if you mind me saying this, like starting to get into cover design, and she designed a cover for me from the book that I'm working on.
00:52:24.239 --> 00:52:32.639
And it was just such a wonderful thing as a writer to have someone put, you know, uh characters to it.
00:52:32.800 --> 00:52:44.079
So I would say even if you're just trying to get into it, find a writer who is writing something and design their cover, and they'll be eternally grateful because we have no skills of our own.
00:52:44.880 --> 00:52:46.000
No, absolutely.
00:52:46.159 --> 00:52:47.840
I I would say exactly the same thing.
00:52:47.920 --> 00:52:56.079
A lot of my good friends are indie authors, and I've been doing covers for them, and I do feel like it's such a it's like our babies that we connect over.
00:52:56.159 --> 00:53:02.800
It's their book that they worked so hard on, and I was able to make the cover for it, and it's like a connection that way.
00:53:03.039 --> 00:53:05.440
So yeah, no, I totally agree.
00:53:05.599 --> 00:53:09.360
I love a good bestie cover designer and author duo.
00:53:09.440 --> 00:53:11.840
That's me and my best friend Jay and Fail Day.
00:53:11.920 --> 00:53:14.400
And I what's, I don't know, it's a great duo.
00:53:14.480 --> 00:53:14.880
I love it.
00:53:15.199 --> 00:53:17.119
Thank you uh so much for being here.
00:53:17.280 --> 00:53:19.280
Thank you so much for all the information.
00:53:19.440 --> 00:53:22.159
Um, we're uh so excited to have had you.
00:53:22.320 --> 00:53:24.320
Um, is there anything you want to plug?
00:53:24.400 --> 00:53:26.559
Is there any any freelance services that you offer?
00:53:26.719 --> 00:53:29.280
Anything else you want to give a shout out to before we end?
00:53:29.840 --> 00:53:30.400
Yeah, sure.
00:53:30.559 --> 00:53:41.599
If anyone who would love to have me illustrate or design their cover, you can check my Instagram is Anto underscore Mart, M-A-R-R, like my last name with a T at the end, Mart.
00:53:42.000 --> 00:53:45.440
Um and yeah, on there, you can DM me.
00:53:45.679 --> 00:53:49.519
Um and I, yeah, I would love to help anybody out.
00:53:49.599 --> 00:53:53.519
I'm always looking for freelance work, even though I am busy with my current work.
00:53:53.599 --> 00:53:57.360
I every time I see a cover I design, it just makes me smile so much.
00:53:57.519 --> 00:53:59.679
So I can never have too many.
00:53:59.760 --> 00:54:02.880
So yeah, check me out on Instagram if you're interested, and I would love to help you out.
00:54:03.039 --> 00:54:14.400
And if you're just looking to get into the publishing industry on the design side and you're looking for advice, just like I'm on LinkedIn, I'm on Instagram, shoot me a message, and I'm happy to chat anytime.
00:54:14.719 --> 00:54:16.000
Oh, that's so kind of you.
00:54:16.480 --> 00:54:18.480
Um, yes, please reach out to Anto.
00:54:18.719 --> 00:54:21.280
Um, and we will see you guys later.
00:54:21.599 --> 00:54:22.079
Bye.
00:54:22.400 --> 00:54:22.719
Hi.
00:54:23.119 --> 00:54:23.760
Bye.
00:00:09.439 --> 00:00:10.800
Hello, I'm Maria.
00:00:10.960 --> 00:00:11.839
And I'm Suzanne.
00:00:12.000 --> 00:00:16.480
And welcome to Publishing Pels Podcast, a podcast where two Pels talk about publishing.
00:00:16.640 --> 00:00:21.199
For nearly a decade, we have tried, failed, and sometimes succeeded at being traditionally published.
00:00:21.280 --> 00:00:27.199
Come along with us as we share everything we've learned in this gate cuped, confusing, but incredibly fun and rewarding industry.
00:00:27.440 --> 00:00:30.000
And today we are joined by Anto Mar.
00:00:30.320 --> 00:00:31.760
Thank you so much for being here.
00:00:32.079 --> 00:00:33.759
Hi, thank you so much for having me.
00:00:33.840 --> 00:00:36.799
I'm excited to talk on the publishing pals.
00:00:37.039 --> 00:00:38.640
Oh, I was so excited to talk to you.
00:00:38.719 --> 00:00:43.759
Um, Anto Mar is an illustrator and graphic designer specializing in book covers and layout.
00:00:43.920 --> 00:00:50.960
She has a degree in graphic design from the Savannah College of Art and Design and has worked for companies such as BookLogics, McMillan, and St.
00:00:51.119 --> 00:00:52.560
Martin's Publishing.
00:00:53.119 --> 00:01:01.119
And I I guess I'd love to start off because I I feel like uh a lot of the like in-house publishing jobs, there's not a lot known about them.
00:01:01.359 --> 00:01:14.000
Just um like what is the process um for an in-house layout artist of creating a book's cover from like what information you're giving to like how you would work with an illustrator if you're using one to the final product.
00:01:14.159 --> 00:01:15.840
Like, can you walk us through the process?
00:01:16.159 --> 00:01:16.799
Yeah, totally.
00:01:16.959 --> 00:01:18.560
I'd love to start with the process.
00:01:18.879 --> 00:01:28.959
So I did layout design in past companies, but where I am now at McMillan, I am just a cover designer and layout design is separate for me.
00:01:29.120 --> 00:01:34.879
So at first I was sad about it because I love layout design, but it is there's a lot that goes into just the cover.
00:01:35.040 --> 00:01:37.359
So I see why those are two separate jobs.
00:01:37.439 --> 00:01:39.840
Like you need a lot of people for that.
00:01:40.079 --> 00:01:48.159
So I would say the process begins with editors obviously um acquire manuscripts from an author.
00:01:48.480 --> 00:02:05.120
And when it comes time, like once they're ready, not always fully written, but once it's ready, they bring to us like a cover brief, is what we call it, where they let us know the genre of the book, a bunch of stuff about the book, you know, what the characters are like.
00:02:05.280 --> 00:02:10.800
And then they always give us a couple ideas of like this is the direction of cover I like to see.
00:02:11.039 --> 00:02:14.560
Here are other covers that I feel my book would fit with.
00:02:14.719 --> 00:02:17.360
So they give us a whole brief of stuff about their book.
00:02:17.680 --> 00:02:23.199
And then between my manager and I, we like fight for which books we want to work on the cover for.
00:02:23.439 --> 00:02:29.520
And then so is it like you get a pile of them and like you you sort through a description or something?
00:02:29.759 --> 00:02:30.479
Yeah, totally.
00:02:30.560 --> 00:02:36.560
That's a like we'll each season of books, which we usually we're doing our covers a year out, usually.
00:02:36.800 --> 00:02:40.879
So right now I'm currently working on what am I working on?
00:02:40.960 --> 00:02:44.479
I think I'm working on fall winter 27 titles.
00:02:44.719 --> 00:02:48.879
So they're books that will come out in like January, February of next year.
00:02:49.039 --> 00:02:50.960
So we're one year out on them.
00:02:51.199 --> 00:03:04.159
And yeah, our for our imprint, I currently mostly work with Wednesday books, which is a like YA romance thriller, um, queer authors, a lot of like fun YA stuff.
00:03:04.400 --> 00:03:17.599
So our editors will bring us usually like 10 to 15 titles, and then some teams with more than that titles will have more artists, but right now it's just me and my manager for Wednesday books.
00:03:17.759 --> 00:03:23.280
And so between the two of us, we will take those like 10 to 15 titles.
00:03:23.840 --> 00:03:29.280
Um, and so yeah, I'll like let my manager know I'm really interested in like this, this, and this.
00:03:29.360 --> 00:03:34.159
Like personally, I really love like thriller mystery horror kind of covers.
00:03:34.319 --> 00:03:35.919
I have a lot of fun with that.
00:03:36.159 --> 00:03:46.159
Um, I did the cover for Moonsick recently, which is like a werewolf, like it's almost like a COVID kind of world, but it's like a werewolf disease people are getting.
00:03:46.319 --> 00:03:48.879
And anyway, the cover for that was really fun to do.
00:03:49.280 --> 00:03:50.159
That sounds fun.
00:03:50.479 --> 00:04:03.759
Yeah, but so yeah, our our the author editor will and auditor will give us like ideas for the cover, comparable covers in the market right now that they want to like look towards um and stuff.
00:04:03.840 --> 00:04:09.840
And then I will sketch out ideas, which I don't know if everyone still does this, but I'm very traditional.
00:04:09.919 --> 00:04:23.279
So I'll like physically in my sketchbook draw ideas and I'll look at other books in the genre for inspiration, and I'll look like on Pinterest, of course, see what's like trending with like keywords from the book.
00:04:23.519 --> 00:04:30.480
And then for some books, if they want like a really detailed cover of, I'm trying to think of one that I did this for.
00:04:30.639 --> 00:04:47.519
Um, for a cover like A Curious Kind of Magic by Mara Rutherford that I did, um, they'll I can ask for the manuscript and I'll actually read like a lot of the book and get like real ideas from in the book because sometimes I like to pull a lot of specific symbols, put those on the cover.
00:04:47.600 --> 00:04:55.040
So sometimes I work reading the manuscript into my process, but some books author has like really clear ideas, so I don't really have to read anything.
00:04:55.120 --> 00:04:57.360
I just go where they're pointing me.
00:04:57.519 --> 00:05:02.319
Um, so yeah, I do like physical sketches and then I turn those into digital sketches.
00:05:02.560 --> 00:05:21.199
Either my two routes I go is like actually illustrating using Procreate or Photoshop on my iPad, or I will do photo manipulation with like stock photos or other photos that we get, and I'll like Photoshop wizard them into something fun and different than they originally were.
00:05:21.519 --> 00:05:31.279
So those are my two with a lot of like thrillery books these days, we do like photo manipulation and like scary hand lettering kind of vibe.
00:05:31.360 --> 00:05:35.680
But then with romance books, I'm sure you guys know illustration is king.
00:05:35.920 --> 00:05:46.560
Like even like romance fantasy, we love to see fantastical illustrations, but then like contemporary romance, we love like a cute couple illustration on the cover right now.
00:05:46.800 --> 00:05:50.240
So I I do try to do both where I can.
00:05:50.800 --> 00:05:54.800
But like you mentioned, sometimes we do hire out an illustrator.
00:05:55.040 --> 00:06:10.319
And so in that case, I'll like sketch ideas for my cover and I'll show them to my editor team, and then we'll like come up with artists that we like find on Instagram or find through agents, or sometimes I even just like see a book covered that I'm like, that's amazing.
00:06:10.399 --> 00:06:13.680
I have to work with this artist and I'll look them up and contact them.
00:06:13.839 --> 00:06:18.160
And so in those cases, I'll like we as a team will hire that illustrator.
00:06:18.240 --> 00:06:29.360
I'll give them my sketches, I'll give them like sometimes the manuscript, any ideas that I have, and then we go through them for like giving us a sketch, giving us a final, things like that.
00:06:29.759 --> 00:06:31.199
Oh, that sounds so fun.
00:06:31.439 --> 00:06:32.879
How how long does that take?
00:06:33.040 --> 00:06:39.040
Because I'm sure like if part of that is like, oh, I have to read the whole manuscript, like it would take a long time to come up with the cover.
00:06:39.120 --> 00:06:42.480
What is your turnaround process and like what do your different deadlines look like?
00:06:43.120 --> 00:06:51.360
So we start with a cover conference, which is where the editors show us all the titles for the season that's a year out.
00:06:51.519 --> 00:06:58.160
And then I would say we have about three and a half to four months to have those covers finalized.
00:06:58.399 --> 00:07:04.319
So it's like, which might seem long to some people, but for me, like three and a half to four months to get art done.
00:07:04.399 --> 00:07:10.160
And like you said, we get everything has to be approved through, I would say maybe like four rounds of people.
00:07:10.319 --> 00:07:16.319
And if any of those rounds pushes back, it like goes back to the beginning, and then I have to get it approved by all the rounds again.
00:07:16.639 --> 00:07:20.079
And you're working on multiple covers at a time as you do this, right?
00:07:20.399 --> 00:07:21.360
Yeah, yeah.
00:07:21.519 --> 00:07:29.040
Since I'm new, I only started officially as a junior designer in December of 2025.
00:07:29.439 --> 00:07:32.480
No, 24, because I worked all of 2025.
00:07:32.720 --> 00:07:37.279
Um, so it's been like a little over a year that I've been an official junior designer.
00:07:37.439 --> 00:07:41.439
And so I've been getting three to four titles per season.
00:07:41.600 --> 00:07:45.199
And then my manager Carrie is fully doing like 10, 12.
00:07:45.439 --> 00:07:46.480
Like she's amazing.
00:07:46.560 --> 00:07:49.040
I don't know how I'll ever get to that point.
00:07:49.439 --> 00:07:50.240
But yeah.
00:07:50.399 --> 00:07:54.240
So like for me, four is plenty to keep me busy.
00:07:54.879 --> 00:07:59.680
Are there any that you're working on right now that you're really excited about that you're like, hey, put this on your Goodreads TV R.
00:07:59.759 --> 00:08:00.959
It'll be out next year?
00:08:01.279 --> 00:08:02.160
Oh my gosh.
00:08:02.319 --> 00:08:09.759
I I mean, there's one I'm there's a few that I'm really excited about, but I don't know which ones they've like teased yet.
00:08:10.000 --> 00:08:12.720
Like I don't want to see the title until it's officially out.
00:08:13.040 --> 00:08:14.000
Um, let me think.
00:08:14.639 --> 00:08:20.240
Do they change the title a lot because of spacing issues where it's like, oh, this is too long, it won't fit.
00:08:20.399 --> 00:08:25.199
Like as a layout artist, are you ever like this is this title needs to be three words longer?
00:08:25.279 --> 00:08:26.959
Or like, like, does it ever work like that?
00:08:27.040 --> 00:08:33.679
Like, how does it-literally that comes up and the title doesn't get changed often enough, in my opinion?
00:08:33.919 --> 00:08:38.960
Because yeah, it's like sometimes an author will be in love with their title, and then I'm like, I there's no way.
00:08:39.120 --> 00:08:41.519
Like, the hardest for me is one long word.
00:08:41.759 --> 00:08:50.320
When it's one long word, I'm like, what myself's like with the book Moon Sick, which that's like not too long a word, but it is just one word.
00:08:50.480 --> 00:08:56.480
So I had like a lot of trouble, like, and we wanted it to be like a title-focused cover without characters on it.
00:08:56.559 --> 00:08:58.960
So I was having trouble making the title like big.
00:08:59.200 --> 00:09:06.799
So if you ever see the cover of that one, I did, I made it like moon-sick, which we don't always do, but at that one I got approval to do.
00:09:06.879 --> 00:09:08.240
So I was like, oh, thank goodness.
00:09:08.399 --> 00:09:12.720
Because it looks so much bigger to have that stacked than like one long eight-letter word.
00:09:12.960 --> 00:09:17.200
But the one that I'm running into a lot these days is the word necromancers.
00:09:17.360 --> 00:09:27.200
I've had that in a couple of books, and it's like, I listen, I love a necromancer book, but the that word is so long, and then that's when they don't want me to break up.
00:09:27.360 --> 00:09:35.679
But so every once in a while they'll change the title for like balancing issues, but not as often as I would like.
00:09:36.080 --> 00:09:37.200
That is fascinating.
00:09:37.519 --> 00:09:52.320
See, I was just saying before this started that as a non-illustrator, if you like, I would not have intelligent questions, and I would never I would never in a million years as a writer think, okay, let me not put necromancer in my title because it would not fit on the cover of a book.
00:09:52.480 --> 00:09:55.360
Like that is of like duh, of course.
00:09:55.759 --> 00:09:56.799
Yeah, that would be hard.
00:09:57.120 --> 00:10:01.679
No, it's it seems obvious to me, but yeah, it's it's something people don't even think about.
00:10:01.840 --> 00:10:04.320
And but it is, it's my job to make it look good.
00:10:04.399 --> 00:10:09.200
So I I do everything that I have to do to make someone's perfect title fit.
00:10:09.360 --> 00:10:18.080
But every once in a while, it is it is so nice when I get a book that comes to me and it's like four words long and the words aren't very long, and I'm like, oh perfect.
00:10:18.240 --> 00:10:19.679
This is gonna be so easy.
00:10:20.080 --> 00:10:21.679
So is it just you?
00:10:22.879 --> 00:10:32.639
Like you own a cover and you're the designer, or there besides someone that you would hire out, is there anyone else that you work with or are you like owning that cover?
00:10:33.279 --> 00:10:42.240
Um, well, as far as owning goes, I think as a like official employee of McMillan, the covers I do for them, they own.
00:10:42.480 --> 00:10:45.840
I do have like credit on every book as the designer.
00:10:46.159 --> 00:11:01.039
And when I work with an illustrator, if I like provide the sketch idea for them to work off of, and if I do the typography, like um when dealing with dragons, which Maria said that you guys saw, um, I love that cover.
00:11:01.120 --> 00:11:09.679
But so that one I had reached out to Charlie Bowater to do the illustration, and I gave her like an initial sketch that she obviously took and made amazing.
00:11:09.919 --> 00:11:14.399
But I gave her that sketch, and then when she gave it back to me, I did all the wording on it.
00:11:14.480 --> 00:11:17.600
So like the title I created and like wrapped it around her illustration.
00:11:17.759 --> 00:11:23.679
So in that case, I the credit is like designed by me and then illustration by Charlie.
00:11:23.840 --> 00:11:28.799
But sometimes if I hire an illustrator and I'm like, hey, we don't have any ideas, we love your style.
00:11:28.960 --> 00:11:32.240
Here's the book, like sketch something and we'll see if it works.
00:11:32.480 --> 00:11:35.120
In those cases, I don't even bother putting my name on it.
00:11:35.200 --> 00:11:41.600
If they do like the typography and the sketch and everything, and I'm just curating, then you know, they get all the credit.
00:11:41.759 --> 00:11:46.559
But if I go in and micromanage and do the title and stuff, then I like to put our names together.
00:11:46.639 --> 00:11:48.559
It's like a joint project.
00:11:48.879 --> 00:11:49.200
Yeah.
00:11:49.360 --> 00:11:52.960
Well, someone from the outside, that's very yeah.
00:11:53.200 --> 00:11:55.840
Like, what's the difference between design and illustration?
00:11:55.919 --> 00:12:01.759
And I think you've explained it really well that like it was your concept, but they're the one that drew it.
00:12:02.159 --> 00:12:02.639
That makes sense.
00:12:03.120 --> 00:12:06.879
The concept, and and in a lot of cases, the designer is doing the typography.
00:12:07.039 --> 00:12:12.720
Some really talented illustrators can do both the typography and the illustration.
00:12:12.799 --> 00:12:14.320
Like, I work a lot with Vera.
00:12:14.639 --> 00:12:19.360
I'm gonna say her last name wrong because it's so hard, it's very long, but it's like Durmanovsky.
00:12:19.440 --> 00:12:20.399
I cannot say it right.
00:12:20.559 --> 00:12:22.879
But she's extremely talented.
00:12:23.120 --> 00:12:28.080
And when I have her do covers for me, she will hand letter the title and it looks amazing.
00:12:28.159 --> 00:12:31.039
And so I don't have to do too much when she's helping me out.
00:12:31.120 --> 00:12:40.720
But a lot of illustrators, they like to focus on just the art and like maybe don't have a design background, and so they, you know, won't touch the title, and so I'm more than happy to do that.
00:12:40.799 --> 00:12:46.720
Typography is like my first love, and then illustration is my second love, but I love them both.
00:12:47.039 --> 00:12:49.919
Yeah, I love some of the hand lettering you had on your Instagram.
00:12:50.080 --> 00:13:06.559
Um is it so when you say layout artist versus cover designer, is it like you're doing the front, the spine, and the back cover, or is part of that layout, like can you explain the difference between the two jobs and like what other what other jobs you work with in-house to put all of this together?
00:13:06.879 --> 00:13:07.679
Yeah, totally.
00:13:07.919 --> 00:13:15.440
So I would say like on my side as cover designer, we do the front cover, the spine, and the back cover.
00:13:15.600 --> 00:13:23.360
So when I first started as an intern for Millen, I was an intern for like a year and then a contractor for a year, and then now I'm a full-time employee.
00:13:23.519 --> 00:13:27.919
But when I was just an intern, I obviously wasn't making covers yet.
00:13:28.159 --> 00:13:31.840
So what you start by doing is we call them mechanicals or mechs.
00:13:32.000 --> 00:13:41.200
And that's where the cover designers will all like when you're going for approval and showing it to the author and everything, you're just making the front cover, the like six by nine image.
00:13:41.279 --> 00:13:42.639
You don't worry about the rest yet.
00:13:42.799 --> 00:13:53.039
And then once it's approved and made it through all the cycles, then it will go to either sometimes that same designer, but a lot of times, like designers under you that don't have as much work to do.
00:13:53.200 --> 00:13:57.360
Like I said, my boss has like 12 titles, so she can't always set all of them up.
00:13:57.519 --> 00:14:06.639
So the mechanical would come to me where I would take one of my fellow designers' front cover and I would make the spine based off their design and the back cover based off their design.
00:14:06.879 --> 00:14:12.320
So when I first started as an intern, I would like go to Barnes and Noble and be like, Oh, I made that spine, I made that spine.
00:14:12.559 --> 00:14:20.399
And like my my name wasn't on anything anywhere because I wasn't the designer, but I was like showing my family, like, I did this back cover, I did the spine.
00:14:20.720 --> 00:14:23.519
So that it that's really fun in itself, too.
00:14:23.679 --> 00:14:25.600
But so that's us cover designers.
00:14:25.679 --> 00:14:31.120
We're doing the front, the spine, the back, and we are the ones like setting everything up for printing.
00:14:31.360 --> 00:14:34.240
So, like, or everything on the cover for printing.
00:14:34.320 --> 00:14:40.559
So, like the effects like spot glossing and embossing and like matte finish versus gloss finish.
00:14:40.720 --> 00:14:44.720
We have to like work with the production team to make sure all of that is good.
00:14:44.960 --> 00:14:49.360
But layout design, we usually just call it interiors here.
00:14:49.519 --> 00:14:53.519
And so interiors is in charge of all like everything inside the book.
00:14:53.679 --> 00:14:57.519
I never see that stuff at all these days until the book is like printed.
00:14:57.679 --> 00:15:00.559
And then I'll be like, oh man, the you know, the title page looks so great.
00:15:00.639 --> 00:15:01.919
I hadn't even seen this.
00:15:02.159 --> 00:15:05.360
So yeah, interiors is totally their own department.
00:15:05.519 --> 00:15:14.480
And a lot of the time, as long as the timeline goes well, like right now, I'm having some people in interiors reach out to me where they're like, hey, do you have this cover done?
00:15:14.639 --> 00:15:19.919
Because like the cover design can influence the style of the inside, you know, design.
00:15:20.080 --> 00:15:27.919
And so a lot of time they'll be asking me, and if I'm like, no, it's not ready yet, like we don't have anything approved, they're like, Oh, okay, well, I'll just I'll try and wing it for now.
00:15:28.080 --> 00:15:28.720
You know what I mean?
00:15:28.799 --> 00:15:31.200
So it's like we are we're all a team that feeds each other.
00:15:31.279 --> 00:15:34.559
And um, so yeah, interiors does all that.
00:15:34.720 --> 00:15:40.799
And then I would say the last one that is part of like the design community would be marketing.
00:15:41.039 --> 00:15:52.639
So whenever we finish covers, we feed them out to marketing, and they're the ones who do like, you know, Instagram posts, they're the ones sending arcs to people to read and everything.
00:15:52.879 --> 00:15:55.919
They're making like advertisements that have the cover in it.
00:15:56.080 --> 00:16:05.919
They make things called sell sheets where it has like the cover, all this information about the book, and they send that to bookstores to get them to like, you know, buy copies before it comes out.
00:16:06.080 --> 00:16:08.879
So marketing does all that stuff after the fact.
00:16:08.960 --> 00:16:13.919
So us in cover design, we're just doing the physical, like cover spine, back cover.
00:16:14.000 --> 00:16:14.399
That's it.
00:16:15.039 --> 00:16:18.960
Is there ever any overlap where it's like, oh hey, you did hand lettering for the cover?
00:16:19.120 --> 00:16:30.639
Can you hand letter numbers for the chapter numbers on the interior or something like that, where they're like reaching out to you or like, oh hey, we need like a promo image from the same illustrator that you worked with or something?
00:16:31.600 --> 00:16:32.879
Not too often.
00:16:33.519 --> 00:16:41.679
What happens most often is once I finish a cover, marketing asks for like the layered files so that they can get in there.
00:16:41.759 --> 00:16:45.039
And if they want to like pull the illustration and use it somewhere else, they can.
00:16:45.279 --> 00:16:51.840
If they want, if they want that lettering, like most of the time we'll use a font and so they can pull that font and do it.
00:16:52.000 --> 00:17:00.000
When I do hand letter, that is where it gets trickier because they don't usually ask me to like write something else and replicate it.
00:17:00.240 --> 00:17:08.640
My I did the cover for The Thrashers by Julie Soto, and that one has hand lettering, and that was one where like we had a lot of promo for it.
00:17:08.799 --> 00:17:11.200
That they were like, What's the font you used for the title?
00:17:11.279 --> 00:17:13.119
And I'm like, No, I hand lettered it.
00:17:13.279 --> 00:17:15.200
And they were like, Oh, okay, we'll just figure something out.
00:17:15.279 --> 00:17:16.079
Like, I don't know.
00:17:16.240 --> 00:17:18.960
No, they didn't have me do anything like that.
00:17:19.039 --> 00:17:23.440
I and I also had like slightly tangent for the thrashers.
00:17:23.680 --> 00:17:27.680
That one, I was a contractor when I created it, not a full-time employee.
00:17:27.759 --> 00:17:30.160
So I do own the rights to that cover a little bit.
00:17:30.319 --> 00:17:36.799
And so that one has been published in a couple other languages, like at a German publisher and a French publisher.
00:17:36.960 --> 00:17:44.000
And so they'll reach out to me for the cover design and I give it to them, and then I have to tell them like it's not a font.
00:17:44.079 --> 00:17:48.799
Like I wrote the title, so they have to change it to the French version or the German version.
00:17:49.039 --> 00:17:53.519
And both times they didn't have me hand letter it, so I think they figured it out on their own also.
00:17:53.599 --> 00:17:55.519
So he's got someone to ape it.
00:17:55.759 --> 00:17:56.559
Yeah, I guess so.
00:17:56.640 --> 00:17:57.119
I'm not sure.
00:17:57.279 --> 00:17:59.759
I haven't gotten to see those ones printed yet, but I'm excited.
00:18:00.079 --> 00:18:03.920
Does the author of the book or like the illustrator that you hired, do they have any input?
00:18:04.000 --> 00:18:04.960
Do they collaborate with you?
00:18:05.039 --> 00:18:12.160
Or is it a little bit more of like a hierarchy of like you being kind of their art director to some degree or explaining to them how it's gonna happen?
00:18:12.559 --> 00:18:13.680
No, not at all.
00:18:13.839 --> 00:18:30.319
I would say the hierarchy is probably editors have like I because I think, well, I mean, I hate to say it's a hierarchy, like none of us are above each other, but like the editors and the authors are working together as a team, usually, and so they'll together have an idea of a cover.
00:18:30.559 --> 00:18:34.960
And then most of the time I don't have any direct contact with the author.
00:18:35.279 --> 00:18:42.960
I have contact with the editor, and so I will show my ideas to the editor, and then sometimes it takes a few rounds for just them to approve it.
00:18:43.119 --> 00:18:50.960
And then once they really like it, then they will show it to the author, like outside of me, and then they'll come back to me with the author's feedback.
00:18:51.200 --> 00:18:53.359
So the author does have a lot of input in it.
00:18:53.440 --> 00:18:59.200
Like I would say the editors and the authors have more input than I do, and my and my art director, Carrie.
00:18:59.759 --> 00:19:05.039
We are often like fighting for like I promise this is this is in the genre, people are gonna love this.
00:19:05.119 --> 00:19:06.240
And they know what they're talking about.
00:19:06.400 --> 00:19:20.160
Like the editors have been here for so long, so they're they're very good at being like, you know, this doesn't look big, or this, you know, this one looks more like you know, clickable than this one, things like that or pickupable.
00:19:20.400 --> 00:19:32.240
Um, so I understand why they're in charge, but no, often we have the least say, like we make the covers, we advocate for the covers, and then it's up to the editor, author to like it.
00:19:32.400 --> 00:19:40.240
And so once like the editors love it, because the author, once the author loves it, which like that can have back and forth, then we go to the sales team.
00:19:40.400 --> 00:19:43.359
And sales team is almost the final say.
00:19:43.839 --> 00:19:50.400
So at the like, we'll have a sales meeting and then a sales conference where this doesn't usually happen.
00:19:50.480 --> 00:19:54.240
Like, usually once it gets to sales, it's like very done and they really like it.
00:19:54.400 --> 00:20:01.839
But every once in a while we'll have a cover come to sales, and then sales will push back and be like, we don't like this cover for like this, this, and this reason.
00:20:02.000 --> 00:20:18.559
And it's like, dang it, like I had gotten the editor and the author on board, and now we literally have to start over, which I think MoonSick was my last one that this happened, where like I went through so many rounds of approval and then it got to sales team and got sent back, and we had to start over.
00:20:18.720 --> 00:20:20.319
And then you'll never believe this.
00:20:20.400 --> 00:20:26.559
It gets all the way back to sales team, they approve it, we're all happy, and then it goes to representatives.
00:20:26.799 --> 00:20:34.160
So, like, sales will now pitch this book to all of their like um contacts they have at bookstores.
00:20:34.240 --> 00:20:40.160
And then our Barnes Noble rep came back to us and was like, hey, we like this book, but we don't like how the cover looks.
00:20:40.400 --> 00:20:45.200
If you make it if you make it look more like this, then we'll like pitch it harder.
00:20:45.359 --> 00:20:52.640
And so then it's up to us like, do we redo the whole cover so that Barnes and Noble will pitch it harder or do we stick to our guns?
00:20:52.799 --> 00:20:57.039
I think that one we did end up changing it some more because we really wanted Barnes and Noble to push it.
00:20:57.119 --> 00:20:58.960
Obviously, that's one of our biggest sellers.
00:20:59.519 --> 00:21:10.480
So that's why to me, I was like, the levels are editor, author, sales, but then there's a secret fourth level of approval that I didn't know about, and that is the like contacts of companies.
00:21:10.720 --> 00:21:12.400
Oh my gosh, that sounds like so much.
00:21:12.559 --> 00:21:18.720
Like on average, to give people just a general idea, like how many rounds of edits do you usually do on a cover?
00:21:18.960 --> 00:21:23.839
I would say for me, probably like four, I'd say three or four.
00:21:24.000 --> 00:21:25.440
And like to me, that's good.
00:21:25.599 --> 00:21:27.440
Like three or four is great.
00:21:27.759 --> 00:21:34.079
Moonsick was probably my record, like I don't even know, 20, maybe like 20 rounds, probably.
00:21:34.240 --> 00:21:46.000
And what's sad is like in that when I start, I'll make like four or five cover ideas, and like most of the time we'll be like, I like this one's direction, but do like all these changes to it.
00:21:46.160 --> 00:21:50.160
And so then I'll do another round where it's like, okay, they're all this direction, but they're all different.
00:21:50.400 --> 00:21:57.200
And so when you have 20 rounds, there are some like good cover ideas in there that just get like killed, you know, or like nixed.
00:21:57.440 --> 00:21:59.759
And so that's always funny looking back.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:02.720
in my early ones and be like, wait, I love that idea for a cover.
00:22:02.799 --> 00:22:04.720
Like maybe I can try and use this somewhere else.
00:22:04.880 --> 00:22:09.119
But no, I would say on a on a good average cover, three or four.
00:22:09.359 --> 00:22:11.920
No, that's probably that's probably a really good one.
00:22:12.079 --> 00:22:13.200
Maybe five or six.
00:22:13.440 --> 00:22:18.559
Maybe five or six is more average, but I'll take that over 20 rounds any day.
00:22:18.799 --> 00:22:35.119
But usually like by the end, usually once it's been approved by the editor and the author and we're good, it'll be just like a few more rounds of minor changes where they're like, we like it, but maybe this color or can you brighten it up and like pull focus to the title?
00:22:35.359 --> 00:22:37.599
Those kind of things, which that's like easy.
00:22:37.839 --> 00:22:46.559
But I do have two covers I'm working on right now that I illustrated and both of them, like on the first round, the editors were like, we like this one, make these changes.
00:22:46.640 --> 00:22:47.920
And I'm like, hot dog.
00:22:48.000 --> 00:22:49.279
That's not really nice.
00:22:49.440 --> 00:22:52.799
It's so nice when you send something to someone and they like one of them.
00:22:53.039 --> 00:22:53.359
Yeah.
00:22:53.519 --> 00:22:54.559
I was really nervous.
00:22:54.640 --> 00:23:03.759
So once I make those changes it'll go to the author and then I can only hope that they'll really like one of the choices and then sales and reps and everybody.
00:23:03.920 --> 00:23:12.480
But sometimes it gets really could you tell us a little bit about your use of hand lettering because I noticed you you do that in a fair amount of your covers.
00:23:12.640 --> 00:23:16.880
Are are there like certain rules that you follow when working on a book that utilizes it?
00:23:16.960 --> 00:23:30.480
Like what does your process normally look like when you're when you're doing hand lettering specifically instead of a font yeah I mean I think the reason I do it a lot is because of my illustration background and my typography background.
00:23:30.720 --> 00:23:37.599
I love like physically drawing out my cover ideas and like drawing out the titles when I do that.
00:23:37.759 --> 00:23:46.160
And so a lot of the time when I show my like manager that she'll be like oh I love how you do the title like just hand letter it rather than finding font.
00:23:46.319 --> 00:23:53.519
And so especially with like thrillery books right now hand lettered fonts are very like in like they jump out.
00:23:53.680 --> 00:24:00.079
It gives it like a spooky you know like handwritten like ransom note or something kind of vibe.
00:24:00.319 --> 00:24:07.920
So that's why all the thriller books I've been getting I always will try out a hand lettered version and then like a regular font version.
00:24:08.079 --> 00:24:12.160
And yeah it really just defend depends on the vibe of the cover.
00:24:12.319 --> 00:24:21.759
Cause sometimes the editors and the author team will see it and be like we really like like this font that you used but like maybe give it like more of a handwritten vibe.
00:24:21.920 --> 00:24:32.319
So yeah it really goes back and forth but then sometimes I'll like draw something and they'll be like we like it but it looks like too young or something like try using this font and that's going to like boost up the age.
00:24:33.359 --> 00:24:40.240
So yeah it really goes back and forth but I just personally love to like write my own typography and draw and everything.
00:24:40.319 --> 00:24:43.279
So I I do it as often as I can get away with it.
00:24:44.559 --> 00:25:19.519
Interesting what you said about like boosting up the age with a font are are there certain like font families that you would say are kind of definitively middle grade YA adult absolutely absolutely yeah exactly so when when we have like say like an adult mystery you know like oh man I was gonna list on a mystery author and now I can't think of anyone but like you know what I mean like the classic adult mystery books they tend to have and thriller books they tend to have like a bold sans serif big title I'm trying to like think of an example of one and of course I'm blinking.
00:25:19.839 --> 00:26:01.920
James Patterson is the right bam yeah no exactly like a James Patterson where it's like maybe guy running on the cover and like scenery of action like that if you have like a handwritten title it doesn't look as like it's not going to look like normal but when it has like bold sans serif like title in your face you're like okay this is like a thriller book that's one of the things I find most fascinating about typography is like typography even if you don't think about it it does make you think something so like I'm sure if you've probably seen in other places people will use like the Harry Potter font for something.
00:26:02.079 --> 00:26:08.319
And even if it's like this is a clothing brand but it's like using that font you're gonna see it and be like magic?
00:26:08.559 --> 00:26:11.680
Why is clothing brand like magical you know what I mean?
00:26:11.839 --> 00:26:24.799
Yeah and same with like Comic Sands is one people love to like troll on now but that's one that when you see it you think like young you think grade school you think like child friendly because it is like a very child friendly font.
00:26:24.960 --> 00:26:30.960
So a lot of fonts like make you feel a thing even if you don't like realize that you're analyzing it.
00:26:31.119 --> 00:26:47.039
And so the same absolutely goes with covers like you can you can definitely like age it up with a really bold sans serif or like obviously if you use a serif that's the one where it has like the feet on the ends and that one that's gonna look old fashioned.
00:26:47.200 --> 00:27:21.599
So if you have like a super modern contemporary romance book and it has like an old fashioned serif font on it you're gonna be like confused you're gonna be like is this set in like a different time period all these things where you don't realize it but it you are picking up on the vibe of the font yeah I'm wondering if you have thoughts on self-publishing covers and what makes something like why do why can you tell that some covers are self-published like what what do you think self-published authors should do?
00:27:22.160 --> 00:27:23.200
What rules are they breaking?
00:27:23.440 --> 00:27:24.480
Yeah what's happening?
00:27:24.799 --> 00:27:35.359
Yeah I mean that's a great question because I really do think that typography is the key I know that's I'm harping on typography too much but that's I really think the core of book covers.
00:27:35.440 --> 00:27:36.720
I mean that's what you're good at.
00:27:36.960 --> 00:28:06.720
Yeah I mean the illustration is so important the imagery is so important but I have seen because I I used to work at Book Logics Publishing which was an indie publisher and so that you know I don't know I was a designer there and I was really trying to like make things look big but that was a whole different process where it with indie publishing it's just usually just the author and then the designer there's no go-between there's no like you're not usually getting other opinions.
00:28:06.960 --> 00:28:33.759
So a lot of times in indie publishing the author will be like well no this is like I want it to look like this and then you can try and make it look like well designed and like it'll fit somewhere but a lot of indie authors I would say have the problem of like I don't want to say too involved but like they won't let go of their idea for the cover and like trust a designer and I think that's what makes it look smaller sometimes.
00:28:34.000 --> 00:29:11.519
I've worked with a couple indie authors where they like really trust me and they're like hey you're the designer like here's some ideas but you do what you think is best and they like go with the covers that I give them and in my opinion I think those covers look really great and look make it look much bigger and like one I have a best friend Julie well she goes by JM Fail day of her books that I worked on her cover The Crow Lord and The Sun Child and they I mean those ones she gets so many compliments on those covers I get so many compliments on doing them and she is like an independently um an independent author who does all her own stuff.
00:29:11.759 --> 00:29:20.559
But I think that us working together like designer and author and her trusting me helped it look a lot bigger because I do I think typography is the key.
00:29:20.720 --> 00:29:28.160
So even if you hire a really talented illustrator as an author like I was saying not all illustrators like know a lot about typography.
00:29:28.400 --> 00:29:37.359
So if you like have them do a beautiful illustration but then they just throw the title on it, I think that's gonna look like it's gonna look smaller right away.
00:29:37.519 --> 00:29:55.759
Which I say smaller and bigger because that's just terms we use in the industry it's not not a bad thing but it's very like oh this is a big book this is James Patterson this is these names that's big or if it's like sometimes independent authors that people don't know as much will say like oh this looks kind of small this isn't you know what I mean?
00:29:56.000 --> 00:30:11.359
Yeah no I mean I think even I I think everyone who looks at a book cover can tell it's like reading a different language almost and it's like somehow you speak parts of it fluently and the rest of us are like we can tell this isn't quite right but we don't know or like you said smaller.
00:30:11.440 --> 00:30:21.599
I like that smaller and bigger like like this was professionally done or this is something that someone put together um with less skill.
00:30:22.079 --> 00:30:24.240
And yeah that's fascinating.
00:30:24.559 --> 00:30:43.119
Yeah we live in a time where it's like it has never been easier for non-designers to just make their own like art and covers like with AI and Canva and there's just lots of programs where someone who has no design background can be like well I can do this like here's the image I want and here's the title and boom.
00:30:43.279 --> 00:30:48.240
And it's like you you'll see the difference like I don't know that's how that's how I feel.
00:30:48.400 --> 00:31:05.359
So I I advocate for hiring artists and hiring designers who've done this for a long time and they can there's a secret sauce that's hard to explain but they can put that on there and I think give it the professional look that you might be missing if you just make it yourself in Canva.
00:31:05.920 --> 00:31:26.640
So like if say if there's an indie author who's listening to this and is like oh that's great advice let me hire a a designer specifically to do like the the typography for the image that I want where would you say they should look to find a designer and what price range should they expect and aside from like trust the designer like what would you want them to come in with to make your job easier?
00:31:26.960 --> 00:31:27.920
Really good questions.
00:31:28.079 --> 00:31:43.440
I think for I mean I would suggest the ways that I find like illustrators and it goes the same for designers would be Instagram is like the biggest thing right now and look at covers that you already like like that's a really big one.
00:31:43.680 --> 00:31:53.839
If you I know like a lot of traditionally booked covers like you might not be able to get those designers but just keep looking out for covers that you like contact those people or check out their Instagrams.
00:31:54.079 --> 00:32:06.720
Most artists will say in their bio like commission's open or something and it literally never hurts to just message any of them and be like hi I have like a I'd love you to work on my cover for this and just see if they're available.
00:32:06.960 --> 00:32:12.240
I even like in the industry I get lots of no's from illustrators who are just too busy.
00:32:12.480 --> 00:32:17.119
So don't be afraid of a couple no's like there's so many artists out there that can totally help.
00:32:17.200 --> 00:32:28.720
So yeah I would say like look every book that you love the cover just like see who designed it see you who illustrated it look them up on Instagram see if they take commissions I would totally like suggest going that way.
00:32:28.880 --> 00:32:44.799
And then as far as price range I mean we're living in a time where that varies greatly and in recent years it's really gone up unfortunately but the cost of living has gone up so obviously paying illustrators for freelance it's gonna go up.
00:32:45.039 --> 00:32:54.079
Um I would say usually our budget for paying an illustrator for just like the cover illustration is like two to four thousand dollars for one.
00:32:54.799 --> 00:32:57.359
So that's like a very normal price range.
00:32:57.599 --> 00:33:02.400
Obviously most independent authors like have a much smaller budget for what they can do.
00:33:02.559 --> 00:33:13.680
So I know like me personally I change my rates a little bit if it's like a smaller independent author and if it's someone who I really like want to help support and everything, you know?
00:33:13.920 --> 00:33:17.440
So I it'll I'll do less than 2000 for sure.
00:33:17.759 --> 00:33:41.119
But um but yeah just expect that that is about how much it costs for a cover now but it is an investment you know like people do judge a book by the cover and it's the first thing that people see so it you do have to you got to pay those artists sometimes which is why it is tempting to try and do AI or something that's cheaper but I promise you you're gonna regret it in the long run.
00:33:41.359 --> 00:33:45.839
People are not loving AI covers right now so don't don't be tempted.
00:33:45.920 --> 00:33:58.960
I'm warning the viewers yes and just a note it is unethical it scrapes from artists without their consent and it is illegal to copyright AI art so anybody could use your image for whatever they want on the cover if it's AI generated.
00:33:59.440 --> 00:34:05.359
Hey future Maria here with just a quick correction um I misspoke it is not illegal to copyright AI artwork.
00:34:05.440 --> 00:34:09.039
What I meant to say was that you cannot copyright AI art.
00:34:09.199 --> 00:34:12.639
There is no way to lay legal claim to AI generated work.
00:34:13.519 --> 00:34:14.719
Exactly very good.
00:34:14.960 --> 00:34:20.400
I and then what do you think they could bring to you to make your job easy as easy as possible?
00:34:20.880 --> 00:34:21.440
Totally.
00:34:21.679 --> 00:35:07.039
So I mean I the way that we do it I think is the easiest way with like a cover brief which sometimes when I've worked with independent artists who haven't or artists independent authors who haven't done too much like book cover or working with book cover designers I sometimes will give them a blank cover brief and be like you know please give me your book title um give me the genre that your book's going to be in please give me like a two paragraph description of your book um you know describe to me your main characters and what they're like the setting and then for me a really important thing is like comparable covers like show me at least five other covers that you're like I want my book to sit right next to these guys.
00:35:07.199 --> 00:35:12.559
Like this is my genre the I love the way that these five covers are have been designed.
00:35:12.719 --> 00:35:30.480
And so that helps a lot with because you know you want to make sure that you're getting that vibe like I was saying with typography and with everything if someone comes to me with like a thriller book I want to make sure that I'm giving them a cover that's going to sit in the thriller section and not be like looking like contemporary romance or something.
00:35:30.639 --> 00:35:47.679
You know so yeah any description of your book and you know I would love I love getting ideas from the author where they're like I imagine the cover looks like this and is evoking this emotion and I really like pink and green color palette for the vibe of my book like I will totally take all those suggestions.
00:35:47.920 --> 00:36:04.400
But I will say like be flexible and be like open-minded and to where like when the artist gives you covers, even if it's not exactly what was in your head because that's the hardest thing is when an author's like I can see it exactly in my head I need you to do this, this, this, and this.
00:36:04.559 --> 00:36:08.880
And then when I try my hardest, they're like it's good, but that's not what I was seeing in my head.
00:36:09.199 --> 00:36:11.760
It's really hard for an artist to do that.
00:36:12.000 --> 00:36:21.360
But it's I think the best covers are when you have your idea, the artist takes your idea, makes it beautiful and it's like a blending of your two ideas.
00:36:21.519 --> 00:36:23.840
I think those are the most beautiful covers.
00:36:24.079 --> 00:36:25.760
Right because it's it's collaborative.
00:36:26.000 --> 00:36:26.239
Yeah.
00:36:26.559 --> 00:36:39.519
I do appreciate uh you talking a little bit about uh pricing for freelance I'm wondering for people who are interested in like in-house work at publishing companies and are not like quite sure what to expect or what that kind of job would entail.
00:36:39.679 --> 00:36:43.199
Could you talk a little bit about like do you work standard hours?
00:36:43.440 --> 00:36:44.559
What's the salary range?
00:36:44.719 --> 00:36:45.519
Are there benefits?
00:36:45.679 --> 00:36:48.880
Like what would people think to expect for a job like yours?
00:36:49.280 --> 00:37:02.320
Um yeah so I can speak on what we how what how it is at McMillan I don't know how the other big five are the other four um but yeah for us I we are still completely remote.
00:37:02.400 --> 00:37:15.760
So we have an office in New York but I am currently living in Dallas Texas because we're totally remote um and I I mean we started doing this during COVID and it's just worked really well for everybody.
00:37:15.920 --> 00:37:22.320
So our CEO really pushed for us to like stay remote um and everyone loves it.
00:37:22.480 --> 00:37:28.719
So yeah I I work in-house 40 hours a week as a full-time salaried employee.
00:37:30.320 --> 00:37:36.400
I'll say that my salary is lower than I was expecting when I got into this industry.
00:37:36.639 --> 00:37:47.119
And I do know other designers who work as a designer in like other um industries not in publishing and they do make significantly more than I do.
00:37:47.280 --> 00:37:55.199
So I will say that passion is a large part of publishing like I know other people in publishing too where they're like I love this job so much.
00:37:55.360 --> 00:38:00.000
I do have like a job on the side because I don't get paid enough but I'm here because I love it.
00:38:00.159 --> 00:38:14.480
So that will would be my one warning to people getting into the industry is like at least where I'm at in it it's not I'm not doing it for the money let's say that way I I definitely I get paid enough to live but not much more than that.
00:38:14.719 --> 00:38:22.960
So that is why me and a lot of other publishing designers we do freelance on the side and that like helps supplement my paycheck a lot.
00:38:23.199 --> 00:38:24.880
So so that's its own thing.
00:38:24.960 --> 00:38:38.320
I'm I don't know I don't want to complain too much because I do love my job and I love my company so I'm not like obviously if it wasn't enough I would just leave the job but I I love what I'm doing.
00:38:38.559 --> 00:38:44.079
So if people out there have a passion for books and it's what you've always wanted to do, I say absolutely go for it.
00:38:44.159 --> 00:38:50.639
Get in there but do keep in mind that I don't know that you're not going to be a millionaire doing this job.
00:38:51.119 --> 00:38:51.280
Yeah.
00:38:51.519 --> 00:39:08.400
I think we hear that from all sides of the publishing industry right from the editor from editors especially when they're starting out and from authors we you know it's yeah it's something that you love but you definitely should be fairly compensated.
00:39:08.559 --> 00:39:20.159
So yeah it's yeah it's a whole thing and it's I mean don't get me started on New York taxes because I I am a New York state employee even though I live in Texas where there's no state tax.
00:39:20.320 --> 00:39:22.239
So I pay New York state taxes.
00:39:22.400 --> 00:39:26.239
And so oh my gosh it's highway robbery.
00:39:26.400 --> 00:39:37.119
So anyway that's a whole other thing but no I will we're everything in publishing is just so dependent on the like you know the fan base and the people buying books.
00:39:37.280 --> 00:39:44.480
So like we have really good years with really good books and then we have not as good years where we didn't have as many like best selling books.
00:39:44.559 --> 00:39:47.679
And so it's definitely the same for especially independent authors.
00:39:47.840 --> 00:39:54.159
They're like you know I'm putting a lot of money on this book and if it pops off and goes viral I'm doing great.
00:39:54.320 --> 00:40:07.360
And if like not as many people are seeing it like oh no I'm still in the red it's definitely I think this is a this is a career for people who are passionate about books and not people who are passionate about having a lot of money.
00:40:08.079 --> 00:40:09.039
That's fair.
00:40:09.599 --> 00:40:25.519
Is it the sort of job that you have like insurance or benefits from or is it just the no absolutely so that's why I would say like I I interviewed at other publishers but I really wanted to stay with McMillan because I love McMillan the most out of everyone.
00:40:25.679 --> 00:40:30.480
So out of the five they're the only ones that are still a privately owned company.
00:40:30.639 --> 00:40:33.199
So we're not like publicly traded or anything.
00:40:33.360 --> 00:40:42.480
So it gives us a lot of like the employees still have a lot of control and we're not controlled by like you know, I don't know the stock market or something.
00:40:43.360 --> 00:40:47.360
But yeah so there's we work 40 hours a week I have great benefits.
00:40:47.519 --> 00:40:56.079
I have like unlimited sick days um which I'm sure that's just like at your manager's discretion which lucky for me I love my manager.
00:40:56.239 --> 00:40:57.199
She's amazing.
00:40:57.440 --> 00:40:59.119
Shout out Carrie Resnick.
00:41:00.079 --> 00:41:05.440
And so like we I have complete faith and trust in her and I feel like she has trust in me.
00:41:05.599 --> 00:41:10.320
And so I you know there's never anytime I need days off there's never a no.
00:41:10.480 --> 00:41:15.119
She's always like yes absolutely like just put it in the calendar you're good to go.
00:41:15.199 --> 00:41:16.400
Don't even worry about it.
00:41:16.559 --> 00:41:19.280
And I'm someone who like thinks about work all the time.
00:41:19.360 --> 00:41:25.280
So I'm very like okay I'm gonna be out this week but if you need anything just message me like don't be afraid to email me.
00:41:25.360 --> 00:41:30.000
And she's always like absolutely not this is your time off don't even look at your email.
00:41:30.159 --> 00:41:33.039
I'm not gonna message you and you're gonna be fine and we'll see you next week.
00:41:33.199 --> 00:41:37.519
So she's very good and and everyone else with I have a we have a whole team at St.
00:41:37.679 --> 00:41:44.559
Martin's publishing group which we're like a group within McMillan and then we have imprints within this group.
00:41:44.719 --> 00:41:49.519
So there's I think like 16 of us in this group and everyone is just the best.
00:41:49.679 --> 00:41:59.039
Like I can ask any of them for help, ask them for anything they're all very like work life boundaries and so a lot of them have kids.
00:41:59.119 --> 00:42:05.679
So a lot of the time they'll be like hey I have to like leave work early because I need to go pick up the kids and everyone's like yep no problem.
00:42:05.920 --> 00:42:14.719
Like we're very big on like your life comes first and then work comes second and we want you to like bring that joy that you have in your life to work.
00:42:14.880 --> 00:42:18.320
So everyone I've ever met at McMillan is very happy to be there.
00:42:18.480 --> 00:42:28.159
Like none of us are unhappy um and so yeah I don't know everyone I've talked to is just it feel if they say it's a family company and it does really feel like family to me.
00:42:28.239 --> 00:42:29.679
So that's why I love being here.
00:42:29.920 --> 00:42:38.639
Yeah oh my God HR pitch they need to yeah I'm like I want to go work for McMillan where line me up McMillan sounds great.
00:42:38.800 --> 00:42:47.920
Yeah um so for other people who think McMillan sounds great or one of the other big five what advice would you give to someone um hoping to break into the book design industry?
00:42:48.239 --> 00:42:55.360
Yeah I mean number one advice is how I got in and how the only way I know other people got in is through internships.
00:42:55.679 --> 00:43:02.400
So I was an intern when I was I think I was like 26 when I was an intern.
00:43:02.639 --> 00:43:05.199
And so obviously I felt very old.
00:43:05.360 --> 00:43:08.480
I was like oh no it's gonna be like college students.
00:43:08.559 --> 00:43:12.159
I graduated like four years ago I'm so nervous to be an intern.
00:43:12.320 --> 00:43:17.679
But honestly I had been applying to internships with all of the big five since college.
00:43:17.840 --> 00:43:22.880
So I would say there was a good like eight years that I applied to internships and never got any of them.
00:43:23.199 --> 00:43:37.599
And then randomly in 2023 I got an email back and they were like yeah let's interview you for this internship and I was like oh my God my first response in eight years and so I will say just don't give up it can take a long time.
00:43:38.000 --> 00:43:44.239
Um and I guess just in that time I was updating my portfolio and I was working at an independent publisher.
00:43:44.400 --> 00:43:50.960
So I think I was getting my credentials up and I know a lot of times you think like for an internship you don't have to have experience.
00:43:51.119 --> 00:43:59.360
It's a cutthroat world it's a cutthroat industry you do kind of need to have some experience when you're when you're doing or applying for internships.
00:43:59.440 --> 00:44:14.320
But I I do think it's a little bit like a lottery, also, because just so many people apply and there might be so many people qualified, but it is um a lot of the time just one human on the other end going through all these applications and they just pick what stands out to them.
00:44:14.559 --> 00:44:19.280
So I like you could be doing everything right and not getting that callback yet.
00:44:19.519 --> 00:44:23.760
You just got to keep doing it and keep trying until yours gets noticed.
00:44:24.000 --> 00:44:25.840
So I finally got noticed.
00:44:25.920 --> 00:44:28.079
I had the interview, I got the internship.
00:44:28.320 --> 00:44:33.440
And so once you were already in that door, then I was able to start like meeting people.
00:44:33.599 --> 00:44:43.199
It was all virtual, so it was a little slower going, but in the internship program, they do a lot of like, we're gonna have a presentation with all these people from this department and this department.
00:44:43.360 --> 00:44:47.280
So I was able to meet um a few people virtually that way.
00:44:47.519 --> 00:44:54.880
And my recommendation to anyone interning who wants to like make it a job, I just started like emailing anybody that I could.
00:44:55.039 --> 00:45:00.559
Because once you're in the company as an intern, like you have you can see everyone's emails most of the time.
00:45:00.800 --> 00:45:03.920
So I just started emailing everybody and being like, hi, I'm an intern.
00:45:04.079 --> 00:45:05.920
I'd love to chat with you about your job.
00:45:06.079 --> 00:45:10.239
And so I reached out to like designers and all kinds of different imprints.
00:45:10.400 --> 00:45:11.920
The company, I talked to all of them.
00:45:12.159 --> 00:45:13.440
All of them are so nice.
00:45:13.599 --> 00:45:14.639
No one ever said no.
00:45:14.800 --> 00:45:17.199
Like everyone talked to me, which was great.
00:45:17.440 --> 00:45:19.519
But all of them were like, Yeah, this is great.
00:45:19.599 --> 00:45:21.119
We're just not hiring right now.
00:45:21.360 --> 00:45:29.679
And I was like, okay, I'll like so I would keep all their emails on a list and be like, okay, I'm gonna reach back out in like six months and see if they're hiring then.
00:45:30.159 --> 00:45:32.480
So that's definitely something I would recommend.
00:45:32.639 --> 00:45:36.800
But I was just really fortunate that the team I was initially put with was St.
00:45:36.960 --> 00:45:40.159
Martin's Publishing Group and they're just an amazing group of people.
00:45:40.320 --> 00:45:46.639
And I really connected with Carrie and her boss Olga, are like two women that I just respect so much.
00:45:46.719 --> 00:45:48.880
But anyway, I loved working with them.
00:45:49.119 --> 00:45:55.360
And so when I finished as an intern, I kept in contact with the both of them and was just like, hey, here's what I'm doing.
00:45:55.599 --> 00:45:58.400
Like, you know, if you guys have anything going on, let me know.
00:45:58.559 --> 00:46:08.639
If you know anybody, Olga was super sweet, and she like gave me emails of people at other companies and she was like, reach out to these people, like, see if they're hiring, I know this guy, tell them I sent you.
00:46:08.800 --> 00:46:10.480
So she was an angel.
00:46:10.719 --> 00:46:16.960
So if you can break in as an intern and make friends with anybody, they will totally advocate for you, and it's so helpful.
00:46:17.199 --> 00:46:26.159
And so after doing that for a few months, they actually reached back out to me, Olga and Carrie, and they were like, you know, we have room for a contractor right now.
00:46:26.239 --> 00:46:33.519
So you could work with us as a contractor, which would just be part-time paid role, but you would like get to actually start working on covers.
00:46:33.599 --> 00:46:36.400
Whereas before I was just doing mechanicals as an intern.
00:46:36.639 --> 00:46:39.519
So I was like, absolutely, I would love to, thank you.
00:46:39.760 --> 00:46:43.280
And so I did that for like, I would say like eight months, maybe.
00:46:43.599 --> 00:46:49.840
Um, and I worked on some covers, loved it, had the best time.
00:46:50.079 --> 00:46:52.880
And then we had an imprint begin.
00:46:53.039 --> 00:46:56.559
So Saturday Books was just opened up last year.
00:46:56.800 --> 00:47:01.840
And so when that imprint opened up, Olga kind of moved over to take over that.
00:47:02.079 --> 00:47:05.840
So out of Wednesday books, she moved to Saturday Books, and Carrie moved up.
00:47:06.000 --> 00:47:10.719
And so they told me they were like, now that we've shifted over, we have room for another designer.
00:47:10.880 --> 00:47:14.800
So, like, my role was kind of created to be in Wednesday Books.
00:47:14.880 --> 00:47:16.480
And so I was so grateful.
00:47:16.719 --> 00:47:21.039
Started that of over a year ago, and yeah, it's been great ever since.
00:47:21.199 --> 00:47:26.559
So, like you said, it's definitely hard to break in, but once you do, it's all about like contacts.
00:47:26.639 --> 00:47:28.480
You just gotta keep emailing people.
00:47:28.639 --> 00:47:33.599
You gotta like, once you like make a good connection with someone, keep up with them.
00:47:33.840 --> 00:47:42.719
Um, like I have people who contact me, and I'm not always great at responding right away, but I will give back to everybody and I definitely help where I can.
00:47:42.960 --> 00:47:47.679
But yeah, I it's all about contacts and who you know in publishing, unfortunately.
00:47:48.320 --> 00:47:48.639
Yeah.
00:47:48.800 --> 00:47:51.119
Or fortunately, it sounds like you know some great people.
00:47:51.360 --> 00:47:56.960
Yeah, it's been fortunate for me, and I've been helping where I can with my other friends who want to get into publishing.
00:47:57.039 --> 00:48:02.000
But yeah, it's like I said, it's just not uh it's not a one-step, like, I want to get into publishing today.
00:48:02.159 --> 00:48:07.679
But just don't be afraid to do internships because, like I said, I was older than I thought.
00:48:07.760 --> 00:48:20.239
And then we have an intern right now who she's almost 30, I think, and she's done a complete career switch where she worked in like finance or something else for like years and years, and then in her 20s was like, you know what?
00:48:20.320 --> 00:48:24.000
I won't I love publishing and I love design and I'm gonna switch my career.
00:48:24.079 --> 00:48:27.840
And so now she's interning with us, and so yeah, it's never too late.
00:48:28.000 --> 00:48:29.519
Always apply to the internships.
00:48:29.679 --> 00:48:32.480
And if you see like assistant roles, definitely apply to that too.
00:48:32.559 --> 00:48:35.920
But sometimes those they really want more experience in the role.
00:48:36.000 --> 00:48:40.639
But yeah, just don't be afraid to apply to everything and don't be afraid to just message someone on LinkedIn.
00:48:40.880 --> 00:48:52.639
I did that for a little bit when I was job searching, where I just went on LinkedIn and looked at companies I was interested in and then looked at like who's their art director, who's this designer, and just message some of them and see like, are you hiring?
00:48:52.719 --> 00:48:55.360
Andor could you just meet with me to give me advice?
00:48:55.519 --> 00:49:02.320
And sometimes that's the best way to just get to know someone, and sometimes they'll keep you in mind, you know, down the line when they do have a job opening.
00:49:02.480 --> 00:49:03.440
Well, that's great advice.
00:49:03.519 --> 00:49:04.000
Thank you.
00:49:04.159 --> 00:49:04.480
Yeah.
00:49:04.639 --> 00:49:17.199
I I know we don't have too, too much longer, but um I I'd love to close with like, are there any resources from book design classes you've taken or your own work experience that you would want to share to potential listeners working on their own book design portfolios?
00:49:17.679 --> 00:49:18.400
Great question.
00:49:18.559 --> 00:49:24.639
I mean, I learned so much from the college that I went to, the Savannah College of Art and Design.
00:49:24.719 --> 00:49:28.480
That's where I learned everything I know about typography and everything.
00:49:28.639 --> 00:49:31.199
But I'm trying to think some resources.
00:49:31.519 --> 00:49:39.519
If you are not like going to college for art, I mean, any Adobe is still a very big part of our design process.
00:49:39.679 --> 00:49:42.800
So learning the Adobe programs, I think, is very important.
00:49:42.960 --> 00:49:46.559
A lot of like freelance illustrators just use Procreate, which is great.
00:49:46.639 --> 00:49:47.920
I use Procreate as well.
00:49:48.159 --> 00:49:48.880
Great resource.
00:49:49.039 --> 00:49:55.679
But if you want to get into like typography usage and more design, learning Adobe would definitely help.
00:49:55.840 --> 00:49:58.800
And there are Adobe classes like just on YouTube.
00:49:58.960 --> 00:50:01.280
You could just YouTube watch Adobe classes.
00:50:01.599 --> 00:50:07.760
So I would really recommend familiarizing yourself, especially with like Photoshop, InDesign, and Illustrator.
00:50:07.840 --> 00:50:10.000
Those are really the only three that I use.
00:50:10.239 --> 00:50:16.159
So if you just watch YouTube classes on how to do it, um, that's a great resource.
00:50:16.320 --> 00:50:28.559
I would say another one is, you know, you some designers I've talked to who are trying to get into the space, they're like, Yeah, I really want to do cover design, but I just haven't gotten any, like, no one's hired me for it.
00:50:28.719 --> 00:50:30.719
Just start making your own cover designs.
00:50:30.880 --> 00:50:38.880
I know a lot of people that like you just take your favorite books, redo the cover entirely, and be like, here are my ideas for these book covers.
00:50:39.039 --> 00:50:41.280
People will see that and be like, oh, I love your style.
00:50:41.519 --> 00:50:42.239
Can you do mine?
00:50:42.320 --> 00:50:44.239
So don't wait for the job that you want.
00:50:44.320 --> 00:50:50.800
Like, start doing it today with, you know, whatever skills you have now, and you will get better as you go.
00:50:50.960 --> 00:50:57.679
Like, especially with InDesign and Photoshop, like those things can be scary, especially if you're just like learning it through YouTube videos.
00:50:57.840 --> 00:51:03.679
But the more you practice with it and the more you like fail, the better your designs will be in the future.
00:51:03.760 --> 00:51:10.719
Because it's it's literally a they told us in art school, like you have to do something a thousand times before you're good at it once, kind of a thing.
00:51:10.880 --> 00:51:16.800
And with logo design, no joke in school, they we would have to sketch 100 logos minimum.
00:51:16.960 --> 00:51:20.880
You have to sketch 100 different ideas before you can like choose one of them.
00:51:21.119 --> 00:51:25.840
Because it's just like you have to get all the bad ideas out first before you get to the good ones.
00:51:25.920 --> 00:51:31.119
So I would just say, you know, practice, practice, start the job you want before you even have it.
00:51:31.440 --> 00:51:35.119
And yeah, YouTube is, I think, a really great free resource.
00:51:35.199 --> 00:51:36.400
I use it all the time.
00:51:36.559 --> 00:51:41.920
Anytime I have Adobe questions, I'm just like YouTube video how to do this in Photoshop.
00:51:42.159 --> 00:51:43.599
And I just go from there.
00:51:43.760 --> 00:51:46.480
But but I really loved taking classes with a professor.
00:51:46.559 --> 00:51:58.800
So if you have an art college near you that does any like graphic design typography classes, I super recommend it for anyone who wants to get into cover design because typography is really important.
00:51:59.280 --> 00:52:01.679
Oh, well, thank you so much for all the information.
00:52:01.920 --> 00:52:04.639
Um is there anything else you wanted to jump in with, Suzanne?
00:52:04.719 --> 00:52:06.719
I think I think we're close to the hour.
00:52:07.039 --> 00:52:07.360
Yeah.
00:52:07.599 --> 00:52:11.440
No, this is I feel like my mind has expanded.
00:52:11.760 --> 00:52:24.000
And it's funny, Maria uh is, I don't know if you mind me saying this, like starting to get into cover design, and she designed a cover for me from the book that I'm working on.
00:52:24.239 --> 00:52:32.639
And it was just such a wonderful thing as a writer to have someone put, you know, uh characters to it.
00:52:32.800 --> 00:52:44.079
So I would say even if you're just trying to get into it, find a writer who is writing something and design their cover, and they'll be eternally grateful because we have no skills of our own.
00:52:44.880 --> 00:52:46.000
No, absolutely.
00:52:46.159 --> 00:52:47.840
I I would say exactly the same thing.
00:52:47.920 --> 00:52:56.079
A lot of my good friends are indie authors, and I've been doing covers for them, and I do feel like it's such a it's like our babies that we connect over.
00:52:56.159 --> 00:53:02.800
It's their book that they worked so hard on, and I was able to make the cover for it, and it's like a connection that way.
00:53:03.039 --> 00:53:05.440
So yeah, no, I totally agree.
00:53:05.599 --> 00:53:09.360
I love a good bestie cover designer and author duo.
00:53:09.440 --> 00:53:11.840
That's me and my best friend Jay and Fail Day.
00:53:11.920 --> 00:53:14.400
And I what's, I don't know, it's a great duo.
00:53:14.480 --> 00:53:14.880
I love it.
00:53:15.199 --> 00:53:17.119
Thank you uh so much for being here.
00:53:17.280 --> 00:53:19.280
Thank you so much for all the information.
00:53:19.440 --> 00:53:22.159
Um, we're uh so excited to have had you.
00:53:22.320 --> 00:53:24.320
Um, is there anything you want to plug?
00:53:24.400 --> 00:53:26.559
Is there any any freelance services that you offer?
00:53:26.719 --> 00:53:29.280
Anything else you want to give a shout out to before we end?
00:53:29.840 --> 00:53:30.400
Yeah, sure.
00:53:30.559 --> 00:53:41.599
If anyone who would love to have me illustrate or design their cover, you can check my Instagram is Anto underscore Mart, M-A-R-R, like my last name with a T at the end, Mart.
00:53:42.000 --> 00:53:45.440
Um and yeah, on there, you can DM me.
00:53:45.679 --> 00:53:49.519
Um and I, yeah, I would love to help anybody out.
00:53:49.599 --> 00:53:53.519
I'm always looking for freelance work, even though I am busy with my current work.
00:53:53.599 --> 00:53:57.360
I every time I see a cover I design, it just makes me smile so much.
00:53:57.519 --> 00:53:59.679
So I can never have too many.
00:53:59.760 --> 00:54:02.880
So yeah, check me out on Instagram if you're interested, and I would love to help you out.
00:54:03.039 --> 00:54:14.400
And if you're just looking to get into the publishing industry on the design side and you're looking for advice, just like I'm on LinkedIn, I'm on Instagram, shoot me a message, and I'm happy to chat anytime.
00:54:14.719 --> 00:54:16.000
Oh, that's so kind of you.
00:54:16.480 --> 00:54:18.480
Um, yes, please reach out to Anto.
00:54:18.719 --> 00:54:21.280
Um, and we will see you guys later.
00:54:21.599 --> 00:54:22.079
Bye.
00:54:22.400 --> 00:54:22.719
Hi.
00:54:23.119 --> 00:54:23.760
Bye.
