If You Can't Accept Hard Truths You Cannot Lead!

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So joining me today from Asbury Park, NJ is Ken Jacob, a certified executive coach, consultant, and speaker with a deep experience helping public leaders and communicators leaders strengthen the leadership effective.
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So again, welcome to the podcast.
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Thank you so much, and thank you for that introduction.
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I may need to hire you as my publicist.
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That just sounded great.
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Like who is he talking about?
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Oh wow, that's me.
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Uh-oh, I better be good.
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Okay.
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So, you know, this is my first time having covered leadership issues from the PR perspective.
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My first question then is how does one recognize an ineffective leader?
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And then what steps do you take to manage your officer or to for to improve their leadership skills?
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So an ineffective leader.
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So what I'd like to do is do a little spin-off.
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I'm I'm very much a believer in positivity and optimism.
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And anything I hear something that might be something we don't want to do, I think about, well, what do we want to do, right?
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So, so if it you know, here here's what I think makes an effective leader, and an ineffective is the opposite.
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You know, when they turn around, do they see followers, regardless of their title, where they are on the org chart, do they see people who understand their vision, understand their role in it, and follow them?
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So if that's what the person has, then they are an effective leader.
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If they turn around, and again, doesn't matter what's on the org chart or you know whose timesheets you sign, but if you turn around and and you're honest with yourself and you don't see pumped-up followers who will follow you into anything, and boy, these are these are scary times today.
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We need people who will follow us.
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So if you don't have followers, regardless of title and org chart, then I then then you're not a leader.
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That's something to work on.
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If you see anyone who I'm gonna go back to your question, it's it's your podcast.
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I should answer it your way.
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But if you see people who just are only focused on the business, the business of PR, the communications, the business of, you know, they may be great PR practitioners, but if they're not spending time thinking about leadership, thinking about, you know, anyone who reports to them, what do they need from me as a leader, right?
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Do you do you think your success is only PR success or only your career success?
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Then you're not a leader because a true leader understands their role is to help others achieve their greatest success, success that they maybe never thought they were capable of.
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And I may be reiterating a point, you can see people in your organization doing that even before they're the EVP, SVP, managing director, whatever the title.
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So, you know, people have this ability to lead.
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You know, I there are a lot of definitions of leadership, right?
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One of my favorites is if you use your mindset and your energy to achieve the goals of, and it's a long list, the goals of the organization, its clients if it has them, its stakeholders, its team, your peers if you have peers, your boss if you have a boss, and yourself, then you're truly a leader.
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So those enough old enough to remember Ed Koch, the mayor of New York, used to say, How am I doing?
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So, you know, it's it's not am I leading or not?
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How are you leading?
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Because your energy, your mindset, your vision, all of that, you you're leading.
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So you're leading from the get-go.
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And now the question is, and are you honest enough to get answers to how am I doing?
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Because truly effective leaders want that feedback.
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They want to know both in their communications and especially their actions if what they're doing is working for their followers.
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So, so, you know, getting you know, being honest with oneself, getting feedback on one's leadership is is another critical part, I think, of the definition.
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Effective leaders seek out performance feedback on their leadership.
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You know, that that begins to raise the question that I have because some of us are in those positions, leadership positions, they might not know that they need to get responses from their audience or their uh staff or their team.
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To find out how am I doing, you know, uh how am I coming across that uh uh you know information that I'm getting from you is good, but now I need to interact with you, but I don't get a feeling that you want to allow me to do that.
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So how does you know the fact that they might have information to give, how are they make themselves open to those who are receiving it?
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Yeah, there are there are all kinds of ways to get the feedback, and I think part of it depends on the size of the organization, but you know, there's so much you can get through.
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Well, if you have an HR department, you can run a confidential survey through them, you can use SurveyMonkey.
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I I would layer on the, you know, and I I would, you know, I would make getting feedback part of your performance review, right?
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Everybody gets reviewed, everybody gets evaluated, right?
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So you have to seek it out and then critical, critical.
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When you hear things you don't want to hear, and you will, I promise you, mark down this date.
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I told you this, you will get some feedback that some of your leadership actions and and words are not landing.
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And treat it as a gift, right?
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Don't rationalize it.
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Don't say, oh, they don't get me, oh, they just really don't like me.
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Oh, that they don't know what leadership is.
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You know, people people know how they want to be led, people know what inspires them and and how to create self-motivation.
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So it's seeking out the feedback, either survey, HR, or you know, think about the one-on-ones.
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Now, many people that we need their feedback won't share it in a one-on-one.
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It is a it is it can be very challenging to look across the desk at your boss, and your boss says, So what could I be doing better?
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That that takes a lot of courage, and not every team member wants to give direct face-to-face feedback with the person in charge of their promotions and salary, you know, promotions and salary increases and bonuses.
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You know, we may not do that.
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That's why I like the blend of truly anonymous feedback.
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The other thing I ask you to seek out in almost every organization, I believe, you will find someone who is willing to speak their truth to you about you.
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And they may be, you know, sort of low on the organizational chart.
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I was very lucky in in just every place in my career, I had at least one person, sometimes two, who would be willing to tell the truth to me.
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And they, you know, they were smart about how they did it, but boy, so I I'll just share a funny anecdote.
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My nickname back when I was in the and I was in the agency business long time ago, and for a long time, my nickname was Uncle Ken.
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And that was kind of endearing and sweet.
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It ended up it could be a double-edged sword, but that's another question.
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But when I wasn't bringing my best, right?
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When I wasn't bringing the right kind of energy, when I was being defensive or any or showing fear, I had one one team member.
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Her nickname for me when I was not in a good place was Evil Ben.
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So there was Uncle Ken and Evil Ben, and she would, when the time was appropriate, pick up the phone and she'd say very humorously, We have a visitor in the office today, it's Evil Ben.
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I thought you should know.
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And that was what courage and what kindness, right?
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To to give me the feedback that I didn't see and that I had to do something to get back into Uncle Ken mode, you know?
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And that and that was part of the issue, and this is feedback I got.
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People didn't know when they would come to me, especially with bad news or surprises.
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Would they get Uncle Ken or would they get evil Ben?
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So, what's the impact?
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If you're bringing your version of evil Ben, people stop sharing bad news, they stop sharing surprises, they stop leading you, lead bringing you, looping you in when they really might need your expertise as a as a senior PR leader.
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So, so establishing that, finding at least one person who'll speak the truth, and hopefully more, you know.
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That that certainly helped me a lot.
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Well, I was about to say that I mean that opens a critical question like that.
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Should not that person who wants to be a leader indicate that uh yes, you are open to receiving input on uh in my presentation what am I missing?
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What uh what is my audience and my uh my team needs to hear from me and how often?
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I'm gonna do it.
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Okay, they'll give you the, but they don't indicate to you that the door is open for you to come to them.
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So, how do you refresh or set that situation up so that they can feel comfortable coming to you saying, hey, look, you know, what you said the other day, I think there are some mistakes in there, or you know, we read it a different way, so forth and so on.
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So, how does that happen?
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How can they make that happen?
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It's a two it's two parts really.
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One is by talk, by saying, This is the kind of feedback I want, or seeking them out and saying, you know, what are three things I'm doing right I should keep doing and do more of as a leader, not as a PR pro, as a leader.
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What are three things I'm doing that isn't working for you and others, and I should modify, edit, or stop?
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What impact are those behaviors having on you?
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So simple, simple, simple.
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So you start with that you might have open office hours where they know you're available, but here's the important thing.
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How you respond to that feedback tells them everything.
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So if you respond by closing it down, disagreeing, like when you ask for feedback and you get it, do not say a word other than thank you.
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Thank you for your courage, thank you for your honesty.
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That might have been hard for you.
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Because if you ask for this feedback and then you respond defensively or negatively, you know, it brings up there's a great quote from the author, Ralph or philosopher.
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Author, philosopher, both, Ralph Waldo, Emerson, what you do speak so loudly, I cannot hear what you say.
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What you do speak so loudly, I cannot hear what you say.
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So if you're all about the talk of give me feedback, open office, blah, blah, blah, but you shut it down, you will never get it again.
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And the person who experiences that will tell other people, hey, I know, I know Paul said to to give him feedback and this and that, but nah, you don't want to do it.
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It's it's gonna be uncomfortable.
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You don't want to do it.
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So I think that that's it, it is it is verb verbiage, but you know, walking the walk, backing it up with action.
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And you know, you you may not change, you know, you you may get a lot of feedback as a leader, you may not do everything they ask.
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That's okay.
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You know, just because you ask for feedback, you know, doesn't mean I I'm gonna do everything my team tells me, but I will I will consider all of it, I will experiment with some of it.
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Some of it are changes I'm I'm willing to make, and you make it and you thank them.
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Did you notice I'm doing this and this?
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Not not I'm not trying to get credit.
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I just want you to know I listened.
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And then you know, so much about leadership is courage, and the courage to say thank you for those four pieces of you know uh input.
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I'm acting on three of them.
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One I'm gonna hold back on for now, but but please keep coming to me because it helps.
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And and sometimes I'm gonna do it your way and sometimes I won't.
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And that that takes courage too.
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Well, you know, and I guess that does answer the question because if in fact you do ask people for input and they give it to you, then you should uh you know indicate yes, I I do like what you said about A, B, C, and Z.
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It's the one or two others I've got some concerns about, I'm gonna look into them.
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Yeah.
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If I think there's some way we can negotiate, let's sit down and talk about those.
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Yeah, even to say I want to sit with that for a while.
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Right.
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That's giving me something to think about.
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I mean, that's a respectful answer.
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You've you've got to communicate respect.
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And and I even the I'm gonna do this, don't do that, we'll do this, you know, don't have that in the moment.
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Because that shows you haven't thought about it.
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Right.
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Say, I'm gonna sit on it and you'll see me take some action, or I'm gonna sit on it, then let's talk again.
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You know, we and and especially, especially if we hear something that makes us really uncomfortable, you know, it might be the right thing to do.
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We've got to think about it and decide what we want to do.
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When we get that moment of defensiveness or discomfort or fear, don't say, don't think, don't act, thank them, and then and then sit with it for a bit.
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Because if it's bothering you, there might be something you really want to change, and you may need some think time.
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We, you know, as leaders, do we spend enough time thinking about leadership, thinking about the feedback we get?
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And I know in the PR business, in com's business, now more than ever, there's no time.
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But if you're a leader or want to be a leader, this is time you need to spend.
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You must spend time growing as a leader.
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Professional development, reading leadership books, leadership blogs, all of it.
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And and you'll get it back.
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I I'm here to say you will get return on that investment.
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You know, because one of the other things I do think about is that, and I've seen this happen on some occasions, is that the senior officials maybe will ask for roundtable discussions with their subordinates.
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You know, how can we come together and let's let's talk about this together and see what it is we can work out together that everybody agrees to.
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That way now you're having some of your subordinates participate, which makes them much more active and gives you a much better per they have a much better perception of you if they can see that they're helping to come to some conclusion about this one particular issue.
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Yeah.
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No, collaboration is great because your people, depending on their various levels, will have insights that you don't see, maybe, right?
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So they're they're doing the work, the PR, like they're gonna be giving you or they know how people are feeling morale-wise.
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Are people engaged or not engaged?
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So you want that collaboration.
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The what the caveat I'd offer is you know, you may not do everything they ask you to do.
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You've got to be good with it and get the feedback, collaborate.
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But as leader, you've got to have the courage to decide.
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And and that's again, at risk of repetition.
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Here this of the five things you said, here's the three things we're gonna implement, here's how we're gonna do it.
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These other two I'm gonna think on, or I'm not, I'm not, I'm I don't see it as the strategy.
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You know, leaders have to be comfortable saying, I appreciate your insights, but for now, here's the direction we're going, and this is why I need you in the boat with me, right?
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This is this is your this is the role I see for you in this, and it's important.
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So it's not just I accept every idea, nor is it I hope not reject every idea, but being open.
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And sometimes it's okay to say, you know, especially if you've got a a number, you know, a leader in training or your number one and their number two sort of thing.
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It's it can be very powerful to say, you know, it's not how I would do it.
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Let's try it your way.
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And if we don't succeed, we'll figure it out.
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We're not gonna fail.
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That that is boy, talk about a way to truly not just delegate, but empower your second in commands into leadership.
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And you know, that that brings up another thought too, because a lot of times sometimes they say, Well, you know, I hadn't thought about that.
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Why can't we sit down together and see what we can come up with?
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Or I'm not gonna take this route because people understand why you did not do something and it makes sense to them and you know, without any sort of o offense to them.
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But once people understand why certain directions or actions weren't taken, it makes more sense to them and they feel like they weren't that you did listen to them.
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You know, so so that eases it as well.
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Precisely, you know, as a leader, you can ask for the feedback, you can ask for your collaboration, but nowhere is it written that you're gonna do everything that's asked, because also you have a perspective.
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Just as you know, you're asking them for collaboration and insights because they have a perspective you don't have, but you have some perspective they don't have, right?
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As as running running the agency or the corporate communications department or the group, you know, you have a perspective too, and you you know what your leaders want, meaning the managers above you, whether it's the board or the stakeholders, the shareholders, like you, you, you know, they may not know all the pressures on you.
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And so, you know, you you've got to be comfortable disagreeing, asking them to play a role and explaining why.
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You know, because people, I think, don't demand or need the leader to do everything they've said, but I think it is respectful and builds loyalty to say I'm not doing your way this time, again, at risk of repetition, here's where we're gonna go, here's why I need you with me, here's your role in it, and why it's so important.
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And keep coming, keep coming to me with ideas because next time we might do it your way.
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You know, the the the other part of that flipping that particular coin is that you know, if you're the one that's building the car, actually, you know, putting it together as compared to all right, somebody giving you a time, all right, do it this way.
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You can say, well, no, we can't do it this way because ABC we've got apart.
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So we have to have a lot of things.
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It breaks down, it doesn't fit.
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So it costs us much.
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But if we do it, we're gonna tell you.
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If we do it, it falls apart as compared to us listening to using here.
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So I think there's to be some room for dialogue there as well.
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Yeah.
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Can I can I give you a slight ver recommend a slight variation?
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Absolutely.
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Okay.
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So when bosses say, I want this, and you you believe Passionately, it's not the right way to go.
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And you tell them why their idea doesn't work, they can often become like toddlers.
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Unless they're really gifted leaders, they become toddlers and they demand it more.
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So I would recommend rather than saying no or why, you know, what you're saying won't work.
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Leaders, everyone are creatures of ego, and they're going to defend this, you know, maybe risky idea.
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So what I recommend is saying, I've thought about your thing.
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May I suggest something different?
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And and most of the time, the your leader will say, Of course, I want to hear your point of view, right?
00:23:10.560 --> 00:23:13.920
But asking permission op literally opens up their brain.
00:23:14.080 --> 00:23:14.320
Okay.
00:23:14.480 --> 00:23:24.240
It gets them from defensive to open, and say, I would do A, B, C, it mitigates the following risks, and here are the benefits.
00:23:24.240 --> 00:23:30.000
So you can talk about it's safer, it's proven, it's tested, it's da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da-da.
00:23:30.000 --> 00:23:35.759
You're making the case for your suggestion rather than knocking down their idea.
00:23:35.759 --> 00:23:43.600
Because people are creatures of ego, and they will defend thinking that that doesn't make sense.
00:23:43.600 --> 00:23:51.040
So you want to remove the defending and show them the better way and show them the benefits.
00:23:51.040 --> 00:24:00.720
And you know, for everything you were going to say about their other idea, instead of saying that's you know, that's negative, and they say, here are the here are the risks it mitigates, right?
00:24:00.720 --> 00:24:09.120
So, you know, risk mitigation, that phrase is something people understand, they get it.
00:24:09.120 --> 00:24:12.240
That's better than implying their idea won't work.
00:24:13.440 --> 00:24:18.560
Well, yeah, you know, again, I think the idea here is having having open lines of communication.
00:24:18.560 --> 00:24:23.520
That is what's important between you know officials and their uh their staff.
00:24:23.520 --> 00:24:31.920
The better you are with that, the better off you are, and the more people are willing to support you and also to report things that that are a problem.
00:24:33.200 --> 00:24:42.400
Well, you know, so I you know, leadership and communications are different skills, but they do have some things in common, right?
00:24:42.400 --> 00:24:50.160
I think to be a good leader, you must have excellent communication skills two-way, right?
00:24:50.160 --> 00:24:58.400
Communicate decisively, explain respectfully, focus on the benefits, you know.
00:24:58.400 --> 00:25:01.840
So that's why leaders must be great communicators.
00:25:01.840 --> 00:25:10.320
But I believe that, you know, in the communications business, the PR business, we we need to be better leaders, right?
00:25:10.320 --> 00:25:20.880
We need to be better leaders, to to be open, to have courage, to be able to speak with respect whether we have internal or external clients.
00:25:20.880 --> 00:25:23.200
Everybody's got a client of some kind, right?
00:25:23.200 --> 00:25:37.200
So I think there are there are a lot of if you do the Venn diagram, leadership skills and communication skills, while there are some differences, there's a lot in that sweet spot where the two circles overlap.
00:25:37.200 --> 00:25:38.560
Overlap.
00:25:38.560 --> 00:25:49.280
Though I would say if I look at the industries, you know, leaders I think understand they've got to be great communicators.
00:25:49.280 --> 00:25:56.400
No disrespect to the field in which I grew up and and in which just about all my clients make their living.
00:25:56.400 --> 00:25:58.720
They're almost all PR and comms people.
00:25:58.720 --> 00:26:14.000
I think the industry needs to keep doing a better job of developing your people, not just as superb PR practitioners or program managers, but as superb leaders, superb leaders.
00:26:14.000 --> 00:26:17.680
Remember, leadership is a two-part choice.
00:26:17.680 --> 00:26:42.160
Your conscious decision to go above management, above being a manager, above being a practitioner, above being skilled, but but that's sort of the science and what I call the art of leading human beings, which is challenging and frustrating, but also can be very, very, very fulfilling.
00:26:42.160 --> 00:26:53.920
So I think our industry could oh, and uh getting back to the two-part choice, sorry, it's your followers' decision to follow you or not, your team members' decision to follow you or not.
00:26:53.920 --> 00:27:07.280
You might have the fancy office, they may report to you, you may you know, they may report to you on the org chart, they may need your approval of their work output, but that's different than following, right?
00:27:07.280 --> 00:27:12.080
Because they can come in, do the work, check the boxes, do the to-do list.
00:27:12.080 --> 00:27:14.480
There's something transactional about them.
00:27:14.480 --> 00:27:14.880
Right.
00:27:14.880 --> 00:27:24.800
But if you figure out as a leader to be the kind of leader that they choose to follow, that is transformative.
00:27:24.800 --> 00:27:31.360
And and you can transform your organization, you can transform your people's careers.
00:27:31.360 --> 00:27:37.360
So I think stepping into leadership has has enormous impact.
00:27:37.360 --> 00:27:40.800
And again, with all these frustrations, can be quite fulfilling.
00:27:41.040 --> 00:27:47.920
You know, one of the things I heard you um when you just said stepping into it, being prepared to step into it.
00:27:47.920 --> 00:27:54.160
You know, just because you have been promoted doesn't mean that's good that's not a good deal with people particularly.
00:27:54.160 --> 00:28:14.160
If you've come from one part of an area where you work mostly by yourself, but now you've got a small group or a group of people or if they don't want things done with whatever and you don't allow yourself to get input or feedback from your group, then the wheels can begin to come off as as well.
00:28:15.120 --> 00:28:15.360
Yeah.
00:28:15.360 --> 00:28:27.759
Well, I think you know, if you go from subject matter expert to manager or leader, or you go from manager to leader, or you go from you know to leading people who used to be your peers.
00:28:27.759 --> 00:28:38.240
You get promoted, suddenly your peers uh uh should, I want to say they're not required to follow you, but you know, you know, will they make the choice to follow you?
00:28:38.240 --> 00:28:41.600
And I think if I may, this is the good news.
00:28:41.600 --> 00:28:43.600
These are coachable moments.
00:28:43.600 --> 00:29:08.400
If you're going from subject matter expert to manager or leader, if you're going from manager to leader, and especially if you're promoted to lead people who used to be your peers, this is where coaching can be so effective because I mean coaches, I hope, I believe, passionately do a lot for their clients, but but we step in from the outside.
00:29:08.400 --> 00:29:10.880
We are not part of their story.
00:29:10.880 --> 00:29:14.720
We bring, I I hope and I trust objectivity.
00:29:14.720 --> 00:29:18.720
And that is a great outside point of view looking in.
00:29:18.720 --> 00:29:27.759
You know, there's one thing generally even the most effective leaders don't have, and that's objectivity about themselves.
00:29:27.759 --> 00:29:44.320
So you've got to seek that out through a peer group, you know, through PRSA if if you're a member there, or IABC if you're a member there, or if I may, you know, retaining an executive coach.
00:29:44.320 --> 00:29:52.480
Because, you know, stepping into leadership, I think, especially today, is particularly challenging.
00:29:54.720 --> 00:29:57.360
Well, Ken, you know, we're sort of coming to a close here.
00:29:57.360 --> 00:30:00.640
I'm just wondering if you have any closing remarks for our listeners.
00:30:02.240 --> 00:30:06.160
Well, can I can I tell them how they can get in touch with me?
00:30:06.160 --> 00:30:06.960
Would that be all right?
00:30:06.960 --> 00:30:08.560
That's okay with me.
00:30:08.560 --> 00:30:11.520
Okay, so I'm on LinkedIn.
00:30:11.520 --> 00:30:20.240
There are many Ken Jacobs on LinkedIn, but I believe I'm the only one that starts Ken Jacobs, PCP and a few other initials.
00:30:20.240 --> 00:30:22.720
It stands for Professional Certified Coach.
00:30:22.720 --> 00:30:23.360
PCC.
00:30:23.360 --> 00:30:24.160
Did I say PC?
00:30:24.160 --> 00:30:25.920
Not PCP.
00:30:25.920 --> 00:30:27.440
I earned this certificate.
00:30:27.440 --> 00:30:30.000
I just re-re-upped my certification.
00:30:30.000 --> 00:30:32.960
PCC, Professional Certified Coach.
00:30:32.960 --> 00:30:42.160
Connect with me on LinkedIn or through email, K-E-N at J A C O B S C O D M.com.
00:30:42.160 --> 00:30:49.040
And our website is www.jacobsc-o-d-m.com.
00:30:49.040 --> 00:30:54.400
And we've got a lot of leadership tools for you on the website.
00:30:54.400 --> 00:30:56.720
We have leadership ebooks.
00:30:56.720 --> 00:31:00.160
We have a LinkedIn newsletter.
00:31:00.160 --> 00:31:02.400
You can sign up for content.
00:31:02.400 --> 00:31:06.320
So you can keep getting my insights for free.
00:31:06.320 --> 00:31:08.160
Which is always nice, right?
00:31:08.160 --> 00:31:09.360
Always nice.
00:31:09.680 --> 00:31:13.920
Okay, let me say thank you so very much for providing that insight to our listeners.
00:31:13.920 --> 00:31:16.320
And uh once again, listening to Ken.