Episode 34: The Michael Jackson Verdict | Psyched OUT!

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Hello, everybody, and welcome to Psyched Out, a podcast focused on all things
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psychology like psychological thrillers, unethical experiments,
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true crime cults, and more.
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I am your host, Emily, and for those who don't know, I have a bachelor's degree
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in forensic psychology and a background in law enforcement.
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This helps me provide unique insight on some of the world's most famous cases, movies, and events.
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In today's episode, we'll be talking about The Michael Jackson Verdict,
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a documentary recently released on Netflix.
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Those of you who follow me on YouTube as well as TikTok may have seen the 10-minute
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analysis I did immediately after watching the three-part series.
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I was consequently inspired to do a much deeper analysis and include some additional
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research into Michael's childhood and his home life.
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As mentioned, I am not biased one way or the other towards Michael Jackson.
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He was well before my time. I was born in 2000, so I was a wee little baby,
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and I honestly knew very little about him.
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I would say I was aware of his skin condition, how the media was like super
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inappropriate asking him questions about that. I've seen a lot of those clips on TikTok.
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I was aware that he came from a large family and that he had some type of assault
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allegations against him. I didn't really know the specificity behind that.
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And then I also remember the news of his death and how really concerned and like.
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Enamored the public was with what happened. Again, I was really too little to
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kind of understand what all of that was.
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So I don't really have a dog in this race.
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I'll be honest, at the time, I really had difficulty grasping who Michael Jackson
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was because at that time, I didn't really know the level of fame that he had.
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I don't think I'd even heard a single Michael Jackson song, to be honest.
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So again, I'm not biased one way or the other. I'm just based on the information
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that I have seen and have acquired.
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I know many people are in one camp or the other, and they either firmly believe
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that he's guilty or firmly believe that he's innocent.
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I'm not here to say he's guilty.
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Or innocent. The court said that he was not guilty. So we're going to go based
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on what the court says, whether you agree or disagree.
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Unfortunately, that's just how legal proceedings work. What I'm going to do
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is analyze the case itself from a very broad general perspective,
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as well as Michael and his own behaviors.
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But before we do that, before we jump on in, I do have a couple of announcements to make.
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So bear with me here. The first is that I have created a business email,
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which is psychedoutpodcast at gmail.com, capital P in psyched,
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capital O-U-T in out, capital P in podcast, and then at gmail.com.
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I would love to do a fan mail episode at least once a month,
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depending on the influx of emails.
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So feel free to send an email with questions, topics, fun facts.
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Etc., whatever it is you wish for a chance to be featured in an episode.
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You guys have been a fantastic community, and I want you to feel included in
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all of this and really kind of foster that relationship, not only with me to
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you guys, but you guys amongst yourselves, I think it would just be a really fun idea.
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On top of this, the podcast is entirely free.
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I'm not going to monetize that side of things because I am monetized on TikTok,
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and YouTube and also the podcasting platform I work through has said that my
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content is not safe for some reason, despite it being presented in an educational manner.
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So if you guys really want to support me, please consider you know following
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my other channels following my youtube and my tiktok and things like that you
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don't have to the support though it really does mean the world to me and it
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helps me continue to make content like this
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i very clearly have a full-time job
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in patrol so that takes a lot of time and a lot of effort so being able to do
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this really is a privilege but it also takes a lot of effort and a lot of energy
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but that is all i have as far as news so without further ado,
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we're going to go ahead and jump into the episode.
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We're going to start with a quote, something that Michael once said,
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which was, My childhood was taken away from me. There was no Christmas.
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There was no birthdays. It was not a normal childhood, nor the normal pleasures of childhood.
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Those were exchanged for hard work, struggle, and pain, and eventually material
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and professional success.
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But as an awful price, I cannot recreate that part of my life,
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nor would I change any part of my life.
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I think this is a very pertinent quote for Michael's entire outlook on life.
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Honestly, his entire story as a whole. I think these few sentences really provide
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some of the clearest insight we have on who Michael is, what his thought process
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was, and what his life was like.
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It's really easy to look at celebrities a lot of the times and think,
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you know, they have everything that they could ever want without really acknowledging
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where it is that they may have come from.
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So that's what we're going to do right now is kind of talk about where Michael
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started in his journey through life.
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So Michael grew up in Gary, Indiana, with I believe it was eight siblings,
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one of which had passed away.
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I think there's a set of twins in the family, and one had sadly passed away.
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So he was one of 10 siblings, but one of eight as far as living siblings, if that makes sense.
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And they all grew up in a two-bedroom house, which is astronomically cramped. I can't imagine that.
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So I have five siblings myself, and I think we would all probably kill each
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other if we had to do that.
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We've done that on vacation a few times, and it's always really contentious.
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So I can only imagine how that would have been for Michael and his family.
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Now, Michael's father, Joseph Joe Jackson, had to sacrifice his own musical
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pursuits in order to support his large family, on occasion working up to three
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jobs at a time, which is insane.
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But again, I mean, you have 10 kids, so you kind of have to do what you can.
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Now, Michael's mother, Catherine, was a stay-at-home mother, a homemaker.
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She really looked after the kids, but she also encouraged them to pursue music.
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A lot of them were very musically gifted, very musically talented.
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Obviously, that came with a lot of practice as well, but they did have a bit
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of a natural propensity for it.
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So she really hunkered down and said, you know what, like if this is something
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that you guys want to pursue, I'll help you do that.
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On top of that, Catherine was a devout Jehovah's Witness. And for those who
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don't know, Jehovah's Witness is a specific sort of subsect or spinoff of Christian religion.
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We'll discuss the general belief system in a moment and kind of what that means,
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but just keep that in mind.
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Inevitably, Michael and his siblings became the Jackson Five,
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and Joe became a manager for the family more than he was a dad.
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Granted, he was working a lot anyway, so how present he was within the family, who really knows?
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Michael stated at one point, quote, I grew up on stage.
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I grew up in nightclubs. When I was seven, eight years old, I was in nightclubs.
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I saw striptease girls take off all their clothes. I saw fights break out.
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I saw people throw up on each other. I saw adults act like pigs, end quote.
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Michael really entered an adult world well before he was old enough to properly
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digest the things that he was seeing.
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I mean, there's a reason that we don't want children exposed to sex and violence
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before an age-appropriate point in their life, and that's because it can be very damaging,
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especially when they may be seeing things and feeling things and not really
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knowing the best way to cope with that, to handle that, what it even means.
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And we also have to keep in mind that all of the stuff he's seeing is in direct
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conflict with his religious beliefs, so I can only imagine how that must have felt.
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Jehovah's Witnesses follow all 66 books of the Bible, along with their teachings,
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believing that it's proper to not celebrate birthdays or certain holidays like
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Christmas, avoid political involvement, and maintain religious neutrality.
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They also believed in avoiding sexual promiscuity and sexual immorality,
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which is pretty stereotypical across a lot of religions, especially Christian religions.
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And then Jehovah's Witnesses also avoid service in the military,
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and this partially stems from their belief that the only person who should be
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worshipped or followed to that extent is Jehovah, a.k.a. God.
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So they don't even believe that Jesus should be worshiped, only God.
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Whereas like when I grew up in the church and I myself am Christian,
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it's you believe in God and Jesus and the Holy Trinity and you can worship God
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and Jesus and the Holy Spirit. But Jehovah's Witnesses don't do that.
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And in general, Jehovah's Witnesses are expected to behave honestly and with
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integrity, which is great. I approve of that.
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And they are directed to avoid practices considered sinful while maintaining
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commitment to spiritual discipline.
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So in all, not bad. I know a lot of people tend to, you know,
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crap on Jehovah's Witnesses because they have that sacred understanding or like,
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I don't know what the correct word is.
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They view blood as something that's very, very sacred and that it should not be put into the body.
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And so, you know, there's been cases where like a kid's dying in the hospital
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and they need a blood transfusion and the parents are like, no it's against
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my religious beliefs and a lot of people really latch on to that but in general,
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i would say that they're probably not the worst religious subsect that we could
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be focusing on to be honest like even myself being christian there's a lot of
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really really really shitty things that christians have done so like.
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Be fair when you point the finger at them because i think there's definitely
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worse things that could happen.
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Be done. Anywho, given these principles of Michael's religion,
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his family's religion, and how deeply that was ingrained in his childhood,
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I imagine that Michael's visits to nightclubs to perform resulted in a bit of a culture shock.
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To make matters worse, there were allegations, and honestly,
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I think it's pretty safe to say, of physical abuse, verbal and emotional abuse.
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I heard that there were some rumors of sexual abuse. I don't know how accurate that is.
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A lot of people were talking about it on Reddit, but I'm not going to get my
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sources from Reddit because that's a bit iffy in my opinion.
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But regardless, these allegations were all made in reference to Joe and his
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children, including statements where Joe would chase and beat his children for
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the smallest mistakes in their rehearsals.
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Michael at one point stated, quote.
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Scream, Joe, you're gonna kill him. You're gonna kill him. Stop.
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I was so fast he couldn't catch me half the time, but when he would catch me,
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oh my god, it was bad. It was really bad, end quote.
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Joe, naturally, denied these allegations, stating that he never beat his children,
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he only spanked them, and then stated Catherine was more responsible for physical
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violence than he was because he was working three jobs and he wasn't home,
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which, like, good job, Joe.
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I'm really glad that you threw your wife under the bus for your shitty behavior.
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You're a real man, a real winner, but I guess that's to be expected.
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I just, it makes me shake my head. And then in defense of the beating allegations,
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Joe would say, quote, look what I came out with. I came out with some kids that
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everybody loved all over the world, and they treated everybody right, end quote.
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As if that somehow, like, miraculously makes his behavior okay and has turned
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him into this upstanding father and individual where it's like,
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oh, I may have beat the shit out of my kids, but they didn't turn out to be awful pieces of shit.
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And it's like, listen, Joe, that's not really the point.
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And also maybe you shouldn't beat your kids. Like I was spanked growing up because,
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at the time there wasn't as much of a dialogue about like the impact of spanking and things like that.
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And I remember being very, very scared to get spanked. At the end of the day,
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I think it whipped me into shape a little bit. I personally would never hit my kids.
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But, you know, I would hear stories of my dad being like, well,
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if you think this is bad, when I was your age, I would get the belt, yada, yada, yada.
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So I do think there's something to be said that at the time it was a cultural
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thing, right, where there wasn't so much of a talk about, well,
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is it appropriate to be doing this to a child?
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Granted, we have now developed as a society and that's kind of been put on the
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back burner, thankfully, but,
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I do think it's very, very likely that all of this happened just because when
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you look at the time period, that stuff was happening. So Joe can deny it all he wants.
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I mean, if we're being honest, he did do all of that. So whatever.
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Anywho, we'll get into the psychological impact of child abuse in a moment.
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But keep this in mind because we're actually going to circle back to Michael's
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religion and his childhood.
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Not only was Michael forced to acknowledge adult behavior and adult violence
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at such a young age, he was also able to notice how different the world was
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around him due to his religious belief system.
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He was able to observe you know others celebrating Christmas or having birthday parties
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and he was able to understand that it was honestly innocent in nature but it
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was something that he was told was bad for him and something that he couldn't
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participate in because it was a sinful practice,
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on top of this Michael already had a very isolated childhood because I mean
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he was having to battle racism racism was still a very big thing but on top
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of that he was also impoverished there was just a lot going on.
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There was also the abuse.
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All of this was happening simultaneously. And so he was even more isolated by
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his own religion as well.
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It really just was a cocktail of misfortune. That's the best way that I can put it.
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And one of the few times people can really come together regardless of circumstances,
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belief systems, backgrounds. A lot of times that's for holidays or birthday parties.
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And Michael essentially had no sense of community outside of his own family
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because of the way that he was raised and the belief system that he had.
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And this is naturally going to stunt social skills and a way for somebody to
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integrate comfortably into society.
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And this permeated his childhood and carried into adulthood when he was swamped
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with fame, leading to even further isolation and an inability to integrate into
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society the way that a normal individual would.
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At the end of the day, there were very few people that Michael could relate
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to because of the strange circumstances of his childhood.
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And if we couple that with the style of abuse inflicted on Michael,
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it makes sense why Michael struggled in so many emotional and social aspects of his adult life.
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Because when we look at Joe as a parent, we can really target his style of abuse
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as being centered, one, on isolation, and then two, on terror.
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The isolation being in Michael not having much of a social life,
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not having social interaction with his peers, with extended family and relatives or others.
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By limiting, like Joe limiting Michael's freedom to, you have to practice at
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these specific times. If you mess up, you get beat.
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Things like that. Then we have to look at the terror aspect of it,
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which is found in Joe's insistence to place unrealistic expectations not only
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on Michael, but his siblings, and then threatening them with violence for failing
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to meet those unrealistic expectations.
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So again, the beatings for mistakes in rehearsal.
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And I think part of this abuse stems from Joe having to give up his own musical
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dreams and then turning around and using his children as a stand-in for what he wanted for himself.
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And like, I can understand how that would be hard. You know,
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maybe your life gets thrown off kilter because, you know, Catherine gets pregnant and you have a baby.
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But you chose to have 10 children.
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Like, no one was making you have that much sex. You did that to yourself.
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And it just feels wrong to almost hold that against your children because you
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didn't get to fulfill the dreams that you wanted.
00:15:55.025 --> 00:15:59.292
Like, nobody held a gun to Joe's head and said, you need to get married and you need to have 10 kids.
00:16:00.030 --> 00:16:03.374
If he really wanted to, he could have pursued the career that he wanted.
00:16:03.711 --> 00:16:08.558
So it just feels wrong and spiteful to then turn around and be like, well,
00:16:08.941 --> 00:16:12.782
I couldn't have what I wanted, so I'm going to hold my kids to a standard that's
00:16:12.782 --> 00:16:16.992
really, really awful and they'll never be able to meet my expectations,
00:16:16.992 --> 00:16:19.789
but that's okay because I get to live vicariously through them.
00:16:20.022 --> 00:16:24.242
And then consequently damaging your children because of that. It's just ridiculous.
00:16:24.700 --> 00:16:28.236
But again, it's of the time because men didn't really know how to handle their feelings.
00:16:28.874 --> 00:16:32.442
And men still don't really know how to handle their feelings a lot of the time.
00:16:32.442 --> 00:16:36.305
So I guess who knows how much progress we've actually made as far as that goes. But.
00:16:37.124 --> 00:16:42.200
Anywho, as for the long-term effects of child abuse, we can see psychological
00:16:42.200 --> 00:16:44.120
issues just in brain matter alone.
00:16:44.480 --> 00:16:48.100
Studies have found chemical imbalances and cognitive delays in children,
00:16:48.268 --> 00:16:52.620
now adults, who were abused in childhood, resulting in social difficulties as
00:16:52.620 --> 00:16:53.968
well as attachment issues.
00:16:54.368 --> 00:16:58.210
And the studies that I read, there were a bunch of technical terms for different
00:16:58.210 --> 00:17:01.787
parts of the brain. I'm not really going to get into that specifically because
00:17:02.217 --> 00:17:05.540
while I do have a degree in forensic psychology, I'm not a neurologist.
00:17:05.540 --> 00:17:08.962
So even that is a little bit of scientific jargon for me.
00:17:09.269 --> 00:17:12.890
And if I can't understand that shit, I'm not going to expect you guys to understand
00:17:12.890 --> 00:17:17.790
that. So just know the brain changes, chemical imbalances, abuse is bad,
00:17:18.063 --> 00:17:20.559
makes your noggin develop not so great.
00:17:21.081 --> 00:17:26.610
Now, in some cases, children who experience rejection or neglect are more likely
00:17:26.610 --> 00:17:29.524
to develop antisocial personality traits.
00:17:29.866 --> 00:17:31.660
Now, when I say antisocial personality
00:17:31.660 --> 00:17:35.445
traits, don't confuse that with antisocial personality disorder.
00:17:35.787 --> 00:17:39.720
You can have antisocial personality traits without having antisocial personality
00:17:39.720 --> 00:17:41.691
disorder. So just keep that in mind.
00:17:42.103 --> 00:17:46.149
And one of those traits is self-isolation, which is something that we see in
00:17:46.283 --> 00:17:49.185
Michael's, not only his childhood, but his adulthood as well.
00:17:49.859 --> 00:17:53.990
And then on top of social issues, abuse is shown to be responsible for other
00:17:53.990 --> 00:17:57.005
detrimental factors in the victim's life. Who would have guessed?
00:17:57.568 --> 00:18:01.500
Studies have found that 80% of 21-year-olds that were abused as children met
00:18:01.500 --> 00:18:04.354
criteria for at least one psychological disorder.
00:18:04.534 --> 00:18:08.358
Now, I didn't do a whole lot of background as far as Michael's, like.
00:18:09.170 --> 00:18:15.829
Entire extensive career as a musician, because that's just a lot. That dude was a busy bee.
00:18:16.125 --> 00:18:21.846
But I mean, I think it's pretty safe to say he had some psychological issues.
00:18:22.264 --> 00:18:24.784
So that statistic isn't too surprising.
00:18:25.443 --> 00:18:29.164
On top of that, abused children were also far more likely to abuse substances.
00:18:29.727 --> 00:18:33.389
Again, there were some substance abuse issues when it came to Michael.
00:18:33.389 --> 00:18:37.819
I'm not going to get into all of that specifically, but another statistic that's not too surprising.
00:18:38.527 --> 00:18:43.419
In general, abuse or adults who experience extensive child abuse have a much
00:18:43.419 --> 00:18:47.844
more difficult time handling a point of crisis in their life.
00:18:48.204 --> 00:18:52.939
They may react inappropriately any time of high stress due to past abuse,
00:18:52.939 --> 00:18:57.449
which ultimately cripples their ability to emotionally regulate and understand
00:18:57.449 --> 00:19:00.028
that maybe a situation that feels like a crisis isn't,
00:19:00.522 --> 00:19:04.639
or they're not able to properly assess a situation that feels like a crisis
00:19:04.639 --> 00:19:07.079
and is a crisis and then be able to cope with it.
00:19:07.787 --> 00:19:11.542
And if that weren't enough of a shit sandwich, abuse often impacts a victim's
00:19:11.542 --> 00:19:14.695
ability to gauge who they can or cannot trust.
00:19:15.264 --> 00:19:18.942
In some instances, people will close themselves off and trust no one,
00:19:18.942 --> 00:19:24.395
becoming emotionally unavailable, protective, and then just further self-isolate. Not great.
00:19:24.813 --> 00:19:29.022
On the flip side, others will trust anyone and everyone, believing that other
00:19:29.022 --> 00:19:33.349
people couldn't possibly be as bad as the abuser or even see other people as,
00:19:33.721 --> 00:19:35.190
you know, stand-in saviors.
00:19:35.638 --> 00:19:39.165
And this leads to victims being manipulated and taken advantage of.
00:19:39.768 --> 00:19:44.462
In general, abuse victims struggle to maintain relationships and can often be
00:19:44.462 --> 00:19:49.427
re-victimized due to their skewed interpretation of familial and interpersonal relationships.
00:19:49.880 --> 00:19:51.745
Just a bit of an anecdotal story.
00:19:52.379 --> 00:19:56.962
My little brother, he's biologically my cousin, very abusive childhood.
00:19:56.962 --> 00:19:59.684
We ended up adopting him. I love him to death. He's a cutie patootie.
00:20:00.201 --> 00:20:05.162
But when he was very little, he would go around and talk to complete and total
00:20:05.162 --> 00:20:09.322
strangers and act like they were his best friends. And he thought that everybody
00:20:09.322 --> 00:20:11.212
was a good guy. Everybody was a good person.
00:20:11.566 --> 00:20:15.612
And, you know, growing up, my parents very clearly taught me stranger danger.
00:20:15.612 --> 00:20:19.896
And I remember being surprised by this. But looking back on it, it makes sense.
00:20:20.262 --> 00:20:24.092
He had that opposite effect of instead of being isolated, not trusting anybody,
00:20:24.092 --> 00:20:27.518
he was overly trusting because he saw other people as like,
00:20:27.965 --> 00:20:32.975
good individuals who couldn't possibly be as evil and messed up as my aunt and
00:20:33.294 --> 00:20:38.672
as in a weird way these forms of saviors so like I've seen this type of behavior
00:20:38.672 --> 00:20:40.521
firsthand granted it was more in
00:20:40.956 --> 00:20:45.712
a child than an adult but even now that he's growing up he'll be 18 soon here
00:20:45.712 --> 00:20:48.828
I still see remnants of that behavior where it's like oh,
00:20:49.417 --> 00:20:53.062
you know hey buddy that person really wants to take advantage of you and he
00:20:53.062 --> 00:20:57.272
can't really see it until you explain it and break it down to him so it's something
00:20:57.272 --> 00:20:59.893
that's very real something that I have seen firsthand.
00:21:00.247 --> 00:21:05.716
Is that to say that every abuse victim ever has experienced something like that? No, but it does happen.
00:21:06.422 --> 00:21:09.974
Now, what does all of this have to do with Michael and the court case against
00:21:09.974 --> 00:21:14.752
him for the allegations of sexual abuse? Now, that is a great question.
00:21:15.211 --> 00:21:18.764
Really quick, though, I do just like so that we're all on the same page.
00:21:18.764 --> 00:21:23.797
I'm not going to get into the extensive detail about the court case itself.
00:21:24.162 --> 00:21:26.934
That feels a little bit redundant. I feel like it's been beat to death.
00:21:26.934 --> 00:21:31.251
There's countless documentaries out there. If you want to watch it, go for it.
00:21:31.657 --> 00:21:35.448
I will discuss some of the facts as they pop up, if they're pertinent.
00:21:35.825 --> 00:21:39.674
But it's not going to be in like a super detailed chronological order of events.
00:21:40.220 --> 00:21:42.460
If that's something that you're wanting, I'm sorry to disappoint you.
00:21:43.466 --> 00:21:47.961
That's not going to be happening in this video. So Michael, as we know,
00:21:48.385 --> 00:21:50.027
had a ranch called Neverland.
00:21:50.666 --> 00:21:54.739
Interesting name. Personally, I'm a huge fan of Peter Pan, but I don't know
00:21:54.739 --> 00:21:58.099
if I would name my ranch Neverland. That in and of itself feels like weirdly
00:21:58.099 --> 00:21:59.713
predatory, but I digress.
00:22:00.096 --> 00:22:04.399
In general, Michael was viewed by the public as being odd and overly eccentric
00:22:04.399 --> 00:22:09.849
with a strange propensity for childlike activities and spending a lot of time with children.
00:22:10.169 --> 00:22:14.395
And that's how we got into the whole mess to begin with, with the Arvizo family
00:22:14.639 --> 00:22:19.933
alleging sexual abuse against their son Gavin and Starr by Michael.
00:22:20.616 --> 00:22:24.667
An investigation ensued along with a court case, as one would expect.
00:22:25.074 --> 00:22:29.015
And at face value, I can see why people were so off-put by Michael's behavior.
00:22:29.579 --> 00:22:33.269
An adult having an entire ranch with like a fairgrounds, a zoo, etc.
00:22:33.689 --> 00:22:38.039
Is off-putting, especially with it being directly connected to the house or
00:22:38.039 --> 00:22:40.266
being directly on the property with the house.
00:22:40.702 --> 00:22:44.428
There's not even really a degree of separation there. So again, I get it.
00:22:44.806 --> 00:22:47.539
And then obviously it's going to be off-putting for a lot of people when you
00:22:47.539 --> 00:22:51.040
continuously invite children over and spend a lot of time with them.
00:22:51.743 --> 00:22:55.677
However, when you look at Michael's childhood, like with the Jehovah's Witness,
00:22:56.258 --> 00:23:00.209
issues, the isolation, the abuse, and honestly just a lack of identity within
00:23:00.209 --> 00:23:04.059
his own family, it kind of makes sense, right?
00:23:04.059 --> 00:23:06.909
Like he really didn't have a childhood at all.
00:23:07.229 --> 00:23:11.319
So him seeking out joy and happiness through events and pleasures he would have
00:23:11.319 --> 00:23:13.722
liked to have had as a child makes a lot of sense.
00:23:14.262 --> 00:23:19.818
And being able to have parties or go to the fair or engage in events he really didn't otherwise do.
00:23:20.776 --> 00:23:24.633
I mean, it's not really that different than me, like, buying myself collectibles,
00:23:24.633 --> 00:23:28.423
as you can see on my bookshelves, or buying me Pokemon cards because I have
00:23:28.423 --> 00:23:32.203
the money to do so now. He just happened to have, like, millions of dollars,
00:23:32.203 --> 00:23:35.068
which I can only fathom. I don't even know what I would do with all of that money.
00:23:35.445 --> 00:23:37.488
I would probably buy so many Pokemon cards.
00:23:38.424 --> 00:23:41.253
But, yeah, I wasn't allowed to have that stuff as a kid because my family couldn't
00:23:41.253 --> 00:23:46.621
afford it. We weren't, like, super broke and poor, but we weren't financially super secure either.
00:23:47.267 --> 00:23:52.758
And honestly, it would be a normal behavior if it was just isolated to Michael himself.
00:23:53.361 --> 00:23:59.033
The problem is that it goes too far, right? There's some unspoken rule,
00:23:59.033 --> 00:24:03.923
unspoken boundary that is crossed because at the end of the day, Michael's an adult.
00:24:04.423 --> 00:24:08.286
And no matter how much he wants to recapture an idea of childhood joy,
00:24:08.866 --> 00:24:11.606
he's really not going to be able to achieve that.
00:24:12.123 --> 00:24:16.274
And so he thinks, well, the next best thing to bring to experience this joy
00:24:16.570 --> 00:24:22.183
is to bring joy to another child and participate that way, which to him makes sense.
00:24:22.183 --> 00:24:24.842
He's being involved with children. He's being a good person,
00:24:25.144 --> 00:24:28.940
and he's able to fill that emotional need for himself. However...
00:24:30.073 --> 00:24:33.997
There's a severe lack of boundaries here in all of this, to be honest.
00:24:34.549 --> 00:24:39.394
And that's really what it boils down to. The documentary on Netflix states Michael
00:24:39.394 --> 00:24:41.122
shared a bed with the boys.
00:24:41.499 --> 00:24:43.449
Others have told me that he slept on the floor.
00:24:44.059 --> 00:24:46.809
At the end of the day, I don't care if it was on the bed or not.
00:24:47.531 --> 00:24:51.704
He never should have been alone with a child in a bedroom of all places,
00:24:51.704 --> 00:24:54.044
especially when there's guest houses everywhere.
00:24:54.491 --> 00:24:57.514
At the end of the day, Michael was setting himself up for something like this
00:24:57.514 --> 00:25:01.190
to happen. Like, it was going to be a matter of time. it's inevitable, right?
00:25:01.771 --> 00:25:06.384
So while I don't really think Michael is a sexual predator in and of itself,
00:25:06.384 --> 00:25:10.544
I do think his background set him up for failure because he was using children
00:25:10.544 --> 00:25:13.668
to fulfill emotional needs he couldn't otherwise fulfill on his own,
00:25:13.982 --> 00:25:16.019
which is inappropriate in and of itself.
00:25:16.186 --> 00:25:20.464
There is no reason that a grown man, let alone a celebrity, should be alone
00:25:20.464 --> 00:25:23.504
in a bedroom with children, whether that's sharing a bed with them or sleeping
00:25:23.504 --> 00:25:26.784
on the floor. It shouldn't have happened. You as an adult should not be relying
00:25:26.784 --> 00:25:29.504
on children to fulfill the needs that you have.
00:25:30.181 --> 00:25:32.288
Whether that is emotional or sexual.
00:25:32.985 --> 00:25:38.255
This also harkens back to my discussion of abuse impacting interpersonal relationships.
00:25:38.975 --> 00:25:42.574
It appeared that Michael struggled to connect with a lot of adults,
00:25:42.887 --> 00:25:47.634
and he tended to have a more closed-off relationship or closed-off persona focused
00:25:47.634 --> 00:25:50.416
on self-protection and a setting of boundaries.
00:25:50.816 --> 00:25:56.134
That is with a lot of adults. But then, in other instances, we see him be overly
00:25:56.134 --> 00:25:58.559
trusting and, quite frankly, naive.
00:25:58.913 --> 00:26:02.814
He trusted people that he really shouldn't have, which again is how he got himself
00:26:02.814 --> 00:26:05.039
in hot water with Bashir's documentary.
00:26:05.921 --> 00:26:10.449
The problem is that due to the abuse he experienced and the fundamental lack
00:26:10.594 --> 00:26:14.460
of a childhood, even being managed by his own father for so long,
00:26:14.867 --> 00:26:19.181
Michael wasn't really exposed to the consequences of misinterpreting interpersonal
00:26:19.181 --> 00:26:23.888
relationships or really being able to identify a person's ulterior motives.
00:26:24.335 --> 00:26:28.241
I think partially why he was so comfortable with children is because he didn't
00:26:28.241 --> 00:26:32.091
have to worry about the social aspect of things as much because children tend
00:26:32.091 --> 00:26:37.651
to be more honest, and when children do lie, they suck at it. So, there's that.
00:26:38.376 --> 00:26:42.381
That said, Michael using children to help himself feel better really isn't a
00:26:42.381 --> 00:26:45.776
good choice, no matter how subconscious it may have been for him.
00:26:46.229 --> 00:26:49.531
And I think part of this stems from the fact that socially, celebrities weren't
00:26:49.531 --> 00:26:53.861
really seen as people, which we've done a little bit better about over time,
00:26:53.861 --> 00:26:58.421
I think. And correct me if I'm wrong, I think it was way worse back then.
00:26:58.821 --> 00:27:04.189
Celebrities were much more likely to be viewed as objects rather than individuals or as a person.
00:27:05.222 --> 00:27:09.048
I also think that we have done a much better job at discussing mental health,
00:27:09.048 --> 00:27:11.079
even amongst celebrities, than back then.
00:27:11.305 --> 00:27:17.168
So there really wasn't much of an open discussion being had around Michael and
00:27:17.168 --> 00:27:22.764
his issues in a way that would have been productive or beneficial because the media,
00:27:23.299 --> 00:27:26.254
really just didn't give a shit and they were being as sensational as possible,
00:27:26.590 --> 00:27:29.203
which is still a problem today. But I digress.
00:27:29.777 --> 00:27:36.738
So michael also did not do himself any favors by constantly having kids around
00:27:36.738 --> 00:27:39.809
because even if he wasn't sexually abusing them.
00:27:40.477 --> 00:27:46.770
He then creates an environment that's incredibly enticing to real sexual predators
00:27:47.176 --> 00:27:52.868
he has made a playground for them so even if he himself is not victimizing children
00:27:52.868 --> 00:27:56.952
in a sexual way he has now created a way for other people to do that
00:27:57.335 --> 00:28:03.262
and it may be unintentional, but he's sort of aiding and abetting as far as that goes.
00:28:03.767 --> 00:28:08.644
Like I said, maybe unintentional, but you'll understand why I'm saying that in a second.
00:28:08.831 --> 00:28:13.532
So in the documentary, one of the pieces of evidence, I say in air quotations,
00:28:14.014 --> 00:28:17.568
comes from a man named Frank who grew up with Michael as a father figure.
00:28:17.568 --> 00:28:23.798
Now inside of this bag he tries to dispose of is a magazine and there's all
00:28:23.798 --> 00:28:29.318
these pornos circled and these pornos were allegedly ordered and what they were
00:28:29.318 --> 00:28:32.492
were videos of sexual conduct with little boys.
00:28:32.624 --> 00:28:36.688
Now, Frank, when asked about it, stated that he ordered it for himself and for
00:28:36.688 --> 00:28:42.778
Michael, which is easy to do, you know, because Michael is already under investigation
00:28:42.778 --> 00:28:47.501
for the sexual assault allegation, so why not just point the finger at him? Now.
00:28:48.810 --> 00:28:53.719
I think that Frank 100% is a sexual predator. I don't know what ended up happening with him.
00:28:54.019 --> 00:28:59.503
But again, the ranch in and of itself is a predator's playground.
00:29:00.450 --> 00:29:06.849
On top of that, we also have to look at the fact that Michael did have an interaction with Epstein.
00:29:07.447 --> 00:29:11.499
Michael, as many know, is in the Epstein files photographed with Epstein.
00:29:11.799 --> 00:29:14.843
If you followed my Epstein investigations when I was doing it,
00:29:15.697 --> 00:29:18.548
I said, you know, to Michael's credit, he does look uncomfortable.
00:29:19.128 --> 00:29:23.519
But what we have to acknowledge here is, you know, while I don't think Michael
00:29:23.519 --> 00:29:27.528
sexually abused children, you have to look at it from Epstein's perspective, right?
00:29:27.819 --> 00:29:34.110
Here's a multimillionaire man with a theme park ranch with tons of kids around him all the time.
00:29:34.910 --> 00:29:38.939
Epstein probably thought Michael was like him and into little kids and wanted
00:29:38.939 --> 00:29:40.274
to be part of the shindig.
00:29:40.898 --> 00:29:46.233
Remember, Epstein had a massive network of people who fit that type of profile,
00:29:46.680 --> 00:29:51.917
to be honest like you don't accidentally meet other pedophiles you seek them out so,
00:29:52.915 --> 00:29:57.799
in a michael's in michael's emotional and social stuntedness he's allowing predators
00:29:57.799 --> 00:30:02.079
to use and abuse the paradise he created now i'm not saying there's any connection
00:30:02.079 --> 00:30:05.439
between neverland and epstein but i'm saying that may have been why epstein
00:30:05.439 --> 00:30:07.782
was so eager to meet michael.
00:30:09.064 --> 00:30:14.229
It just doesn't look good as a whole and it's quite frankly irresponsible in
00:30:14.229 --> 00:30:20.256
my opinion now i will admit Hindsight is 20-20, so I'm going to be devil's advocate for myself here.
00:30:20.981 --> 00:30:25.873
And speaking of devil's advocate, at the time Michael was on trial,
00:30:26.203 --> 00:30:30.051
the American public wasn't used to sex scandals of this caliber,
00:30:30.179 --> 00:30:33.699
right? So this was basically Epstein before Epstein, Diddy before Diddy,
00:30:33.699 --> 00:30:35.200
and Weinstein before Weinstein.
00:30:35.931 --> 00:30:39.289
There is a fair chance that if this happened today, things would be different
00:30:39.289 --> 00:30:42.479
because we've seen so many of these scandals before.
00:30:43.668 --> 00:30:47.910
To be honest with you, the amount of overlap between Michael's case and like
00:30:47.910 --> 00:30:50.727
Epstein's case and Diddy's case is kind of concerning.
00:30:51.302 --> 00:30:54.550
And if we're being objective, which is the goal here, again,
00:30:54.890 --> 00:30:58.256
I'm not one way or the other like pro-Michael, anti-Michael.
00:30:59.051 --> 00:31:03.160
You know, Michael did groom children. It wasn't for sexual reciprocation as
00:31:03.160 --> 00:31:07.968
much as it was for emotional reciprocation and fulfillment, but it was still child grooming.
00:31:08.142 --> 00:31:11.110
If you've been around my channel for a while, you'll know about my deep dive
00:31:11.110 --> 00:31:13.680
into the psychology and pathology of grooming.
00:31:14.173 --> 00:31:18.399
And while most of the time it's for sexual purposes that is not always the case,
00:31:18.893 --> 00:31:21.383
and when you look at what michael did and what epstein did,
00:31:21.976 --> 00:31:26.450
there's a lot of overlap there as well taking in poor families becoming father
00:31:26.450 --> 00:31:30.920
figures to kids who otherwise didn't have a dad providing gifts trips paying
00:31:30.920 --> 00:31:34.048
for family needs courting the family as well as the child,
00:31:34.708 --> 00:31:38.970
it's all in child grooming and again i don't think michael was a raging sexual
00:31:38.970 --> 00:31:40.426
predator the way that epstein is,
00:31:41.169 --> 00:31:45.740
but this is the same blueprint and the exact same playbook and whether it's
00:31:45.740 --> 00:31:51.800
for sexual purposes or emotional purposes it's still wrong and I understand
00:31:51.800 --> 00:31:55.096
that he wanted to help people I understand that he was very.
00:31:56.087 --> 00:32:00.030
I can't I can't think of the word off the top of my head but he did a lot of
00:32:00.030 --> 00:32:05.648
charity work I get that that's also why I do the job that I do why I,
00:32:06.345 --> 00:32:10.830
have donated funds from you know my monetization on YouTube and TikTok,
00:32:10.830 --> 00:32:11.750
two different charities.
00:32:11.750 --> 00:32:16.277
I get that. But you also have to set boundaries, which Michael struggled with,
00:32:16.393 --> 00:32:19.208
again, as I mentioned before, likely due to his childhood.
00:32:19.638 --> 00:32:25.453
So this was all just a very perfect storm for him in a very unfortunate manner.
00:32:26.492 --> 00:32:30.063
But Michael, at the end of the day, he didn't do himself any favors either because
00:32:30.063 --> 00:32:33.673
he never should have been caught alone around a kid ever again after the first
00:32:33.673 --> 00:32:38.950
lawsuit. He should have used that as a wake-up call and just protected himself.
00:32:39.188 --> 00:32:40.993
It really just shouldn't have happened.
00:32:41.429 --> 00:32:45.313
And quite frankly, he just shot himself in the foot. And it's hard not to feel
00:32:45.313 --> 00:32:49.033
frustrated by it because it just seems so predictable.
00:32:49.910 --> 00:32:53.643
Now, when it comes to Gavin, as the documentary shows him with Michael,
00:32:53.643 --> 00:32:56.493
because this is another point of interest that a lot of people have,
00:32:57.120 --> 00:33:00.214
they view that interaction as intimate, which it is.
00:33:00.904 --> 00:33:06.673
But it doesn't come across as sexually intimate. We have to remember that Gavin
00:33:06.673 --> 00:33:08.968
survived cancer because of Michael.
00:33:09.722 --> 00:33:14.238
There's going to be a level of gratitude and intimacy there because of that bond between them.
00:33:14.343 --> 00:33:17.853
If I was dying of cancer and some multimillionaire came and said,
00:33:17.853 --> 00:33:20.878
hey, I'm going to pay for all of your treatments that your family can't otherwise afford.
00:33:21.168 --> 00:33:26.840
I'm going to save your life, there is going to be a level of an emotional intimacy and bond there.
00:33:27.705 --> 00:33:31.343
That doesn't necessarily mean it's sexual, right? So yes, people are correct
00:33:31.343 --> 00:33:34.420
in saying, that's a little intimate, but I don't think they're correct in saying,
00:33:34.763 --> 00:33:36.888
that's sexual. They slept together.
00:33:37.480 --> 00:33:43.013
I think a lot of that was painted in a way to be what people wanted it to.
00:33:43.013 --> 00:33:46.303
Like, people are going to see what they want to see. So if somebody suggests
00:33:46.303 --> 00:33:50.363
to you that's sexual in nature, they're going to look at it that way which I
00:33:50.363 --> 00:33:54.746
think ended up working in my favor because when I saw that portion of the documentary I was like,
00:33:55.501 --> 00:33:58.783
well yeah that's intimate but I'm not looking at this like oh my god they totally
00:33:58.783 --> 00:34:02.467
slept together I'm looking at this as like well yeah that kid's gonna be a little,
00:34:03.331 --> 00:34:07.953
more close to Michael because he was dying of cancer and Michael saved his life
00:34:07.953 --> 00:34:13.919
like to me it just wasn't what people are wanting it to be that's just my take on that.
00:34:15.519 --> 00:34:19.539
But again, devil's advocate. Michael never should have been alone there with
00:34:19.539 --> 00:34:20.649
Gavin in that interview.
00:34:21.305 --> 00:34:24.209
I mean, if I'm being honest, at this point, I feel like I'm kind of beating
00:34:24.209 --> 00:34:28.939
a dead horse, but I almost have to because, like, you guys can clearly see how
00:34:28.939 --> 00:34:33.009
much of his child influenced his behavior and his poor decision-making as an
00:34:33.009 --> 00:34:35.132
adult. I'd say I've laid that out pretty good.
00:34:35.614 --> 00:34:39.489
And what sucks is that part of it isn't his fault and part of it very much is
00:34:39.489 --> 00:34:44.239
his fault because as an adult, it is your responsibility to adjust to the world
00:34:44.239 --> 00:34:46.922
around you, to recognize your faults and your deficits.
00:34:47.305 --> 00:34:52.539
Again, back then, that wasn't as much of an easy task to do because there wasn't
00:34:52.539 --> 00:34:54.887
as much open dialogue and as many resources.
00:34:55.335 --> 00:34:58.254
I get that, but I am frustrated with all of this.
00:34:58.747 --> 00:35:02.309
Additionally, another point worth exploring, even if it is brief,
00:35:02.309 --> 00:35:06.799
is that Michael really lacked a sense of identity, especially in the early parts
00:35:06.799 --> 00:35:09.242
of his life. He was one of 10 kids.
00:35:09.904 --> 00:35:15.245
And then after he was one of 10 kids, He was one part of a five-kid music group.
00:35:16.214 --> 00:35:21.234
That has to be hard, right? I, as I mentioned, have a large family myself.
00:35:21.873 --> 00:35:25.781
And finding out who you are is difficult enough when you're not in an abusive
00:35:25.781 --> 00:35:29.059
household and confined by very strict religious guidelines.
00:35:29.355 --> 00:35:32.061
And then being part of 10 kids.
00:35:32.757 --> 00:35:37.671
Making it out into the real world, having to deconstruct all of that would leave
00:35:37.671 --> 00:35:39.270
a lot of people floundering.
00:35:39.514 --> 00:35:45.271
And as a result, I think Michael really latched onto the superstar persona because
00:35:45.271 --> 00:35:46.721
that's really all he knew.
00:35:46.721 --> 00:35:51.551
I don't think he was given the proper amount of time to explore himself as an
00:35:51.551 --> 00:35:57.138
individual and really build himself up to have more of a sense of self-esteem,
00:35:57.527 --> 00:35:59.501
to grow properly as an adult.
00:35:59.791 --> 00:36:03.965
And he was there, like, as I mentioned, socially and emotionally stunted.
00:36:04.732 --> 00:36:10.542
I think it really limited his ability to ever connect with people because,
00:36:11.303 --> 00:36:16.471
how many people can relate to his specific set of circumstances nobody some
00:36:16.471 --> 00:36:20.751
people become famous overnight but like when you look at his childhood and the
00:36:20.751 --> 00:36:21.948
way that he became famous,
00:36:22.755 --> 00:36:25.837
there's no other story really like it at least that i'm aware of.
00:36:27.132 --> 00:36:28.433
At the end of the day, it's all
00:36:28.433 --> 00:36:32.883
a bunch of very tragic circumstances that culminated in a media frenzy.
00:36:32.883 --> 00:36:37.253
I think throughout Michael's entire career, the media was just a set of piranhas
00:36:37.253 --> 00:36:39.553
that asked him a bunch of inappropriate questions.
00:36:39.553 --> 00:36:43.253
I know a lot of people asked him about his plastic surgery, why he was white
00:36:43.253 --> 00:36:46.573
and not black anymore, if he still considered himself black.
00:36:46.573 --> 00:36:49.973
I just, it was gross. It's disgusting.
00:36:50.124 --> 00:36:55.453
And I hate it. And I do think that the investigation itself needed to happen
00:36:55.453 --> 00:36:59.556
because that's what should have been done in the Epstein case, to be honest.
00:36:59.697 --> 00:37:03.137
But I do think at the end of the day, the jury made the right call.
00:37:03.963 --> 00:37:07.523
Because as I was watching the documentary and being on the legal side of things
00:37:07.523 --> 00:37:11.699
myself, having made arrests, having taken a bunch of reports,
00:37:12.094 --> 00:37:15.072
like you have to be pretty damn certain of something.
00:37:15.374 --> 00:37:19.942
And I just think that the prosecution really came up short. I really do.
00:37:20.297 --> 00:37:22.473
Do I think it would be different if it was tried today? Yeah,
00:37:22.473 --> 00:37:26.463
I think there probably would have been a lot more evidence, either for or against
00:37:26.463 --> 00:37:29.603
Michael. I'm not really sure which way that would go, but it would be interesting
00:37:29.603 --> 00:37:31.250
to see how that played out today.
00:37:32.127 --> 00:37:36.293
But I do think the jury made the right call. I myself would not have felt comfortable
00:37:36.293 --> 00:37:39.859
convicting him with the amount of reasonable doubt that there was.
00:37:40.956 --> 00:37:45.593
In summary, I do believe that Michael had an emotionally inappropriate relationship
00:37:45.593 --> 00:37:52.566
with children that stemmed from his own lack of identity, his childhood, and a lifetime of abuse.
00:37:53.013 --> 00:37:58.846
Michael did groom kids, not for sexual reciprocation, but for emotional reciprocation,
00:37:59.666 --> 00:38:02.973
and to just live vicariously through their experiences.
00:38:02.973 --> 00:38:06.333
And in a weird way, it's not too different from what Joe did with Michael as
00:38:06.333 --> 00:38:11.553
far as living through him and his musical success. It's just a really messed
00:38:11.553 --> 00:38:14.794
up cycle that has continued to perpetuate itself.
00:38:16.853 --> 00:38:21.862
It happens all the time. It just sucks. It really does. This type of stuff,
00:38:22.333 --> 00:38:24.276
it's very hard to get out of that cycle.
00:38:25.122 --> 00:38:28.930
But yeah, if you guys want to watch the documentary, it is on Netflix.
00:38:29.690 --> 00:38:35.863
I will say it does a decent job in giving the defense some credit as well as
00:38:35.863 --> 00:38:39.343
the prosecution. I will say it's probably a little more prosecution-heavy than
00:38:39.343 --> 00:38:42.356
defense-heavy, but this is just my analysis.
00:38:43.253 --> 00:38:46.263
I mean, at the end of the day, we're never going to truthfully know one way
00:38:46.263 --> 00:38:50.814
or the other, but I think looking at it, I feel comfortable in saying that yes,
00:38:51.221 --> 00:38:53.119
there was an inappropriate relationship.
00:38:53.415 --> 00:38:57.502
No, it wasn't sexual. Yes, it was emotional. Yes, it shouldn't have happened.
00:38:57.606 --> 00:39:02.423
Yes, there were a lot of issues there. And yes, it really stemmed from Michael's childhood.
00:39:03.030 --> 00:39:07.253
But that is all I really have to say on that matter. Thank you guys so much.
00:39:07.253 --> 00:39:10.309
I appreciate it. As I mentioned, your support is fantastic.
00:39:10.998 --> 00:39:15.051
Like I said, I have my business email. If you guys want to reach out, let me know.
00:39:15.307 --> 00:39:19.193
I will try to do a fan mail episode either at the end of this month or the next
00:39:19.193 --> 00:39:22.812
month, depending on the influx of emails that I get.
00:39:23.254 --> 00:39:27.543
But the email itself will be down in the description. And then my primary sources
00:39:27.543 --> 00:39:28.973
will be in the description as well.
00:39:28.973 --> 00:39:33.273
Keep in mind that I read a lot before making these videos. And then I just kind
00:39:33.273 --> 00:39:38.403
of keep what I think are the better sources and post those in the description.
00:39:38.403 --> 00:39:41.750
But that is all I have. Please stay safe out there, guys, especially this summer.
00:39:42.163 --> 00:39:45.030
Crazy stuff happens over summer. So please take care of each other.
00:39:45.512 --> 00:39:48.484
And as always, stay psyched out.