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Hello, and welcome to prompt.
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A podcast that looks at fair to, from Um perspective of me Jess and act stage manager.
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Join me as I chat to a wide range of theater practitioners about their experiences, mistakes and whether or not they are indeed prompt.
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Hello, welcome to this episode of prompt, which is brought to you by Lee Alloway therapy.
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Lee alleyway is a counselor and psychotherapist who specializes in supporting the mental health of performers and creatives in theater and entertainment.
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Operating exclusively on zoom Lee alleyway therapy is ideal for professionals on tour or on location, as well as those working in the west end.
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Lee offers a free initial consultation on zoom, which gives you an opportunity to see if you'll be a good fit working together.
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If you reach out to Lez, don't forget to mention prompt.
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His website is Lee Alloway therapy.com.
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Um, Alloway is spelled E double L a w a Y.
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And on social media, he is at li LOA therapy.
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Hello, and thank you so much for downloading this episode.
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It is the final episode of season one.
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Um, I didn't know how many episodes.
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Season one was going to be, I just sort of kept making them really.
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I didn't really know when I was going to stop.
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But, uh, it feels like the right time.
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It feels like the right time for a couple of reasons.
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Um, first of all, having Danny Robbins on the podcast is a real full circle moment for me.
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Um, when I sort of, this random idea came to me that I should make a Popsicle cast.
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Um, I started contacting a few people and he was one of the very first people that I contacted.
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Um, I really, really wanted him to be on it.
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Um, firstly, because, uh, he's an incredible creative, um, with everything that he's achieved with 2 22 and the bath seat Poltergeist and uncanny.
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Um, and secondly, because, um, he has very successful podcasts.
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So I was like, well, if I don't know what I'm doing, Hopefully he will.
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We'll stay me in the right direction.
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Um, but because he's just like the most busy human being in the whole wide world.
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Um, it took a long time.
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So it ended up that he's the last person to be on the C series, not the first.
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So I thought that that was kind of a nice way to round it up with the person that I asked.
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Um, first.
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To be the last guest.
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Um, and secondly, uh, because I would say that my battery at the moment is not about 10% and if I've learnt anything.
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From my years on this planet, it is to stop when you were at 10%, not when you are.
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At 1%.
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Um, so I am gonna take a bit of a break.
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Um, This podcast.
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It's so much work.
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It's more work.
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Than I ever dreamed was possible.
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Um, and, uh, I just want to take a bit of a moment.
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I also want to like market it properly.
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I want to get some better equipment.
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I want to kind of look at what I've made and workout.
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How to make it better for season two.
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Um, I've already got some great guests lined up, but I just want to take a moment.
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Um, and also, you know, just focus, um, give a bit more focus to my family, my children, um, my job, the job that I actually do get paid to do.
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Um, is changing slightly, um, in a really exciting way.
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Um, I'm really excited about, so I just need to put some of my efforts and energy into that.
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So yeah.
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I could see burnout on the horizon, so decided to, um, To slow things down, put a brake on.
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Call it and to season one.
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And, uh, and hopefully if, if you guys are enjoying this, we'll be back with season two.
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Um, so my guest today is the amazing Danny Robbins.
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Um, playwrights podcaster.
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Um, the general spokesperson for the paranormal world.
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Uh, this was w what a way to Emissary's.
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This was such a great chart.
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He was, uh, incredibly candid, had very strong opinions, was a lot of fun.
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Um, I could have listened to him.
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Talk for hours.
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I think playwrights, um, the same with mark Ravenhill makes such great guests.
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Because they have stories that they want to tell.
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And I think that my podcast, um, is a really good form for that.
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Um, so we really, really hope you enjoy it.
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Um, and yeah, if you've got any thoughts on what we should be doing differently for season two, Do let me know.
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So here's Danny Robbins enjoy.
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Uh, hello, Danny Robbins, and thank you so much for coming on prompt.,
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it's a miracle that you're here, because you are the busiest man, I think, in showbiz.
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Getting this, uh, interview in, was so tricky.
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Right at the very beginning, when I was like, oh yeah, I think I'm gonna have a crack at this, um, at this podcast log.
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And I had, like, my dream list of guests.
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that you were on and you were one of the first people who agreed to come on to it and, uh, and you're one of the last who's actually come because you're so ridiculously busy.
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Um, but I am delighted that you're so busy because, uh, the success that you've achieved since we worked together, was it 2018, 2019? Think it was yeah, I think it was 2018.
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I think yeah Yeah, we did Enter the Pier together and, you know, and you were, that play was a, about a dark, it was a dark comedy, it was about being cancelled, a comedian being cancelled, um, and, uh, that sort of seemed to be the area that you were in, comedy, and then you have just, dominated the paranormal ones in a way that I was like, I never saw that coming.
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It's really incredible, uh, 2.
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22 and your podcast, the Battersea Poltergeist, absolute podcast goals, um, and Uncanny and now Uncanny being a television series.
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And you've just come back from this huge American tour.
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It's, it's really incredible.
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And so congratulations, because it's really hard to achieve.
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I think that level of success as a playwright and what you've done is, it's just incredible.
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Yeah, I've done a lot of different things over my career.
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And at times I think I felt too much of a jack of all trades trying to do a lot of different things.
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And I read, I read a really interesting article, actually, someone sent to me, which, uh, talked about creative people hitting a hot streak, what they described as a hot streak.
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And, uh, and it talked about a period of diversification followed by a period of intense focus, kind of, you know, honing in on one thing.
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And it really rang true with me that, that, that summed up exactly what I'd had.
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I think I had, uh, You know, a long time really, you know, a long career of trying to be many different things to many different people and, and experimenting and doing all sorts of different things, you know, comedy, documentaries, travel, writing, acting, all sorts.
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And, um, and then just more and more I became Well, I, you know, interested in certain ways of telling stories, but also honing in on that subject of, of the paranormal and ghosts.
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And I, I, it was something I've been fascinated by since I was a kid.
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I, you know, I was absolutely obsessed with ghost stories as a kid.
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I'd done various things about the paranormal over the years.
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I'd made documentaries.
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I'd done a Edinburgh comedy show that was a parody of Most Haunted.
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Lots of things like that.
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And just, yeah, I just found myself more and more wanting to talk about that subject.
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And I guess the ideas I started formulating were about that.
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And I think.
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The moment that I really gave myself over to that was the moment that I found I was creating the work that felt like my best work, but also finding an audience of people who were interested in the stories that I wanted to tell.
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And I guess that's the crucial thing, isn't it? Because you can be creating stories that you love, but you've got to find other people who love them.
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You've got to find an audience for your Your work, you know, um, and but but I would say that everything I did in the past has fed into that moment And I think that i've learned so many things from all the different things i've done and I don't regret any of those things Well, you know, you know most of those things I don't regret and and certainly, you know, I I feel like it's built up and there's a, there's a line I often think about, um, a Tennyson line from a poem called Ulysses, which is, I am part of all that I have met, you know, that you leave a little imprint on, on the people you meet, the things you do, but also they leave an imprint on you, I think.
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And every person I've worked with, everything I've done, I feel kind of feeds into, to what I am now.
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And I don't know.
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I don't feel I would be able to create the work I'm doing now at any other point in my life, really.
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I felt ready for it now, and I don't think I would have been ready in my twenties or my thirties.
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Yeah, it's, uh, it's, it's really incredible and, fascinating to watch and I'm just also really relieved because before people who were in the paranormal were like Yvette Fielding and Derek Okora, it's really great that we've got someone like you now doing the paranormal stuff because they were terrible because I've, I don't believe in ghosts, but I am interested in, uh, the way that, and you talked about it a lot in 2.
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22, the way that our bodies kind of react and respond when we, believe that we're maybe like in the presence of ghosts or whatever.
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Um, I find that really fascinating and I like that you kind of explore that a lot more instead of kind of the whole, you know, contacting the dead and stuff.
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And I think Yeah, what you were saying about finding that audience, I think that there were so many people who were interested in it, but we never had anybody like you kind of leading the charge because we had those people And they were just a bit, it's just, it was kind of creepy and you've kind of made the paranormal kind of like fun and interesting.
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Yeah, I guess I would say a word in defense of Most Haunted and I think that it did, you know, for a time make very entertaining television and it sort of, it, you know, it invented its own genre.
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I mean, so much of the paranormal TV around now, that kind of night vision camera screaming, all that sort of thing stems from that time.
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And yeah, I remember enjoying that as a, as a younger person and kind of, you know, liking it.
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I, I, I, yes, I mean, I guess what I have done is I've kind of legitimized an interest in the paranormal for people who don't believe in ghosts for skeptics, you know, and I think I was always really keen from the beginning that I wanted to make that our thing, because, you know, I was somebody who absolutely didn't know what I thought and was probably sort of much, much more on the skeptic side than the believer side.
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And I wanted, um, You know, I, I just, I felt it was vital.
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I felt it was vital to kind of tell both sides of the story.
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And, and yeah, the, I guess the key thing, I think that the big difference between what I do and most, you know, maybe all other paranormal broadcasting is that that is interested in places and I'm interested in people, you know, it's not about going to a place and camping out and seeing what might happen, which I think pretty much always leads to anticlimax.
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It's about a strange life changing moment for somebody and then describing that moment.
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And it's impossible to disappoint, I guess, because it's a very clear beginning and middle and then there's a moment where that person's life has transformed as the moment where the thing intensifies and becomes more and more bewildering and scary.
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And then there's a kind of the conclusion of how they feel about it, how it's changed them.
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And I think that's probably the big fundamental difference.
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But I love the fact that we have equal amounts of skeptics and believers coming to this.
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I love it.
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And I think that that's why I came to see 2 22 with its second cast with Giovanni Fletcher and James Buckley.
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And, uh, I just loved it because of the conversations that those four people had.
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It really sort of Pres Pres presented both sides of it, but also what I really loved, and maybe I completely projected something onto it that wasn't there.
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But like what you say about it being about people is that actually.
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I didn't think that that play was about a ghost.
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I thought that that play was about the horror and fear of postnatal depression.
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And maybe I'm totally projecting that onto it, but that's sort of what I came away from.
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Uh, that's what I took away from it.
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And, um, and also I just wanted to say that I thought that the way that you wrote that whole character of Jenny, um, I thought that you wrote very sympathetically from, as a man, I thought that if I'd gone to see that play and I hadn't known the gender of the playwright, I would have said, oh, that was written by a woman.
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I thought that you wrote about it incredibly sympathetically.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, thing to hear and, and, um, thank you so much.
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I mean, I I I, I feel very tough to hear you say that.
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Um, I, I, I think, you know, yeah, play and I hope, I hope mine is a good play.
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A, a, a good play, I think can be many different things to different people.
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And I, I I, I love the way that you can go and watch a play and interpret it in your own way.
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And, you know, the, the plays that I would want to put on, that I would want to direct that other people have written would be ones where you can put your stamp on it, you can interpret it and, and take the themes and, and.
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You know, and run with it.
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Um, I think that, um, yeah, I mean, I, I sort of feel like the, the, the paranormal is, um, you know, the, the, the history, the history of the paranormal is the history of humanity, really.
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It's an attempt to understand ourselves and it intertwines with religion so much because, you know, that also is a way to try and make sense of our experiences and all of the thoughts and feelings that we go through as human beings.
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Uh, you know, we can explain in many different ways and some people choose to explain them as ghosts and some people, you know, choose to explain them as, as the, the, um, You know, the produce of our mind, you know, um, and, uh, so yes, I mean, you know, it's it's a play that you could absolutely come to as a skeptic and see it as a play written for skeptics about what complex complex creatures human beings are and the kind of the mysteries, uh, that we create for ourselves.
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And as a believer, you could absolutely sit there going, this is absolutely proving that ghosts exist, you know, so, so, so I love that.
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I love that, uh, fact, you know, um, but Yeah, I mean, I wanted to create a play that felt like, uh, it was about real people.
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The thing I absolutely did not want is for people to be sitting in that audience and go, we're watching a play.
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You know, I often find myself going to the theater and sitting there going, well, this writer is so clever.
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And he said, look at that, that witty piffy line that he's constructed.
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Oh, the set's quite good, isn't it? Look at the makeup.
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You know, and I just wanted them to be, you know, You know, sitting there going, we are watching real people on stage, it's playing out in pretty much real time, in one room, you know, you're there, and, um, and, you're hooked, because there's a very clear premise at the beginning about we're going to stay up all night to this 2.
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22 point where Jenny's character feels that the ghost appears, and, do you believe in ghosts, you know, what's going to happen at the end of that night, is this going to, um, Prove that exists or not, but at the same time, you're watching this absolute hand grenade thrown into a relationship that question of, you know, if you love me, how can you not believe me and you're watching a relationship potentially unfold here, you know, so I think I often say that I like to think that I write horror for people who don't like horror and I think you know that when you're doing something scary and anything that kind of leans into the horror genre, it can be quite it.
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alienating and off putting, I think.
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You know, it can feel quite a niche genre, and I think often a genre that plays more to younger people.
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I think particularly when you become a parent, you often lose your threshold for the scary, uh, you know, and, and even for the thrilling.
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I know my wife doesn't like even mild peril these days.
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She, she, she finds that difficult.
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Um, but I think what draws you in in 222 is this very real relationship, you know, you're watching a real relationship and friendships around it, and you believe in these people, and the debate feels necessary, not just because it's kind of proving this, you know, what some people would see as an abstract of Do Ghosts Exist, it's testing the very kind of, uh, you know, the seismic lines of that relationship, and will that relationship last the night? And also, I don't know if you realised that you were doing it, while you were doing it, because I think it's so clever, but the character of Jenny, she is You know, and she's been played by so many different people, as there are so many memes on the internet, as we know.
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But also, what's so clever about it, um, is because she could be 20, she could be 40, she can be middle class, she can be working class, she can be from the north, she can be from the south, she can be from anywhere.
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She's just a woman who's just had a baby, and she's going through all the experiences and emotions that every woman has.
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who has a baby go through.
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And I was like, God, that's really clever that there's this lead role in a play that can be played by, like, anybody.
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And she has been played by so many different people, from like, all different ages, different skin colours, like, it's just it's very clever.
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But I don't know if you realised that when you were writing it.
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You were like, Oh wow, this person could be played by anyone.
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I've never had anything that was successful enough to kind of run through multiple casts in that way.
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And it's an amazing thing, an amazing realization, I think, as a writer, that, that maybe the idea you had in your head, not that it's not right, but that, but that you don't need to hold on to that idea that these roles can be many different things.
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And that, I think I would say that probably all four roles in the play could be played by anybody.
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from their, their, their 20s to their 40s, certainly, and I think Ben, one of the roles of the play, could be played by somebody up to their 60s, really, and I think it just, it brings very different things, different energies, depending on whether that person is younger or older, as you say, like working class or middle class, and I was always fascinated by the idea of, you know, allegiances in a play, in a forehand, the way that, you know, to, to get yourself through that, that evening of, of the play to chart our emotional journey, you need different characters at different times to, to form allegiances and to form rivalries and to form, you know, to become enemies.
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You know, you need that kind of constantly to shift, you know, and keep the audience on its toes.
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Um, and so I, I like the idea that you can find those in different ways throughout the play.
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You know, if you have a, a working class Jenny and a working class Ben, and that works as a real nice point of allegiance, you know, you can, you can have, um, you know, there's lots of different ways into that, I guess, I think, and it brings very, very different things to the play, like a younger Jenny with an older Sam, that relationship with the kind of man spirit, explaining, talking down to this younger woman, you know, if you then cast a younger Ben as well, and then that feels that kind of youth against Asian, you know, so yeah, I, I, I just, I really enjoyed watching the different incarnations.
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It's like watching Dr.
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Who regenerate, you know, each time, each time there's very, very different portrayals.
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And we've had American Lawrence, we've had Australian Lawrence, we've had all sorts, you know, Yeah.
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Because it's been like all over.
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It's, it's, it's done, uh, obviously like UK tours, uh, the West End, America, Australia, uh, it's, it's just the, the success of it is Yes.
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I mean, it's been across five continents now, and I've seen it performed in Swedish, in Sweden, and, and, um, I, I've seen, uh, you know, I, I, I've, you know, seen it in la you know, I, yeah, it's great.
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I mean, I, I, um, I find that interesting as well.
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I think that the theme to the play being really, you know, well, I guess that there's quite a few different themes, but certainly gentrification is one of them.
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But paranormal, clearly another, you know, but I, I guess, you know, parenthood and, and.
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how to chart a relationship once you become a parent, you know, all those things are very different in different countries, I think.
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And I found when I went across to, for both America and Australia, I rewrote the play and set it locally.
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Um, and that was really interesting because, you know, gentrification in America is definitely different to gentrification in the UK You know, I think I would say in the UK it's very class based.
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It's generally about kind of middle class people shifting working class communities out of areas and those working class communities can be very diverse racially.
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Um, but in America, it's much more about race, you know, it's basically about kind of richer white people displacing, uh, you know, kind of poor and non white people and I think it's um, it's uh, a different thing and I was very conscious and cautious writing the play for America.
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I didn't, I didn't want the play to become about race because I felt that that was not, uh, you know, it wasn't, you know, what the play was about, but also it wasn't a debate I felt capable of wading into really, you know, um, so, so I, I chose to set it in Boston, one of the places where I definitely thought I could sort of maintain that kind narrative about a working class community being displaced by a middle class community.
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But yeah, you know, it's been an interesting journey.
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Even with those translations, I kind of feel like I'm still learning more and more about what the play has within it and what it's capable of.
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Yeah, how do you, how do you feel, does it make you laugh when you see all the memes, like, you know, Liz Truss, uh, has been announced as Jenny? kind of thing.
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Um, yeah, laugh and slightly scared.
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Um, but, uh, uh, I, I, I do.
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I mean, I, it's lovely.
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I mean, I think, I, I do feel that, that Without wanting to sound like a mad megalomaniac type person, I do feel that it's kind of left a little imprint on the kind of cultural landscape.
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I do think it's sort of slightly changed the way that theatre can be and the way people think about theatre.
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And you know, I see other shows now doing Sort of, uh, that, that kind of thing, that idea of reincarnations.
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And I, I, I think, you know, that had been present.
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I mean, I remember if art, for instance, did it brilliantly, you know, where art would reincarnate this three hander cast each time.
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And sometimes it'd be a group of three comedians.
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Sometimes it'd be three women, you know, would kind of shift.
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It'd be the different takes on what that play could be.
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And so it's, it's not, it's not entirely original for sure.
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But I think what, what we really have done, I think, is to take somebody who feels culturally significant and important to our audience and, and allow them to have a moment where they can reposition themselves and change the way the world sees them.
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And I think that was really true of Lily Allen, really true of Cheryl, you know, and I think there were, there were people that we loved, we resonated, we felt warm towards, we'd grown up with in many ways and, and, uh, Then, you know, people, they've reached a moment in their career where they weren't quite sure what they wanted to do next and 222 allowed them to make this brilliant move to show how great they could be at acting and I, you know, I get stick sometimes on social media and it's normally from, actors, that's so interesting that you brought that up.
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I, I was wondering, but I was like, shall I bring it up? But you brought it up so I can go there now.
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So that's great.
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But I remember seeing, you know, you'd announced like on your personal Facebook saying, oh, you know, Cheryl Cole, we're so delighted to have Cheryl Cole, uh, as Jenny, and, uh, somebody who I presume you know had kind of gone for you.
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And your response, I'll always remember it, um, was really measured, and it also made such an interesting point that I hadn't thought of, because you were saying, yeah, you know, we've got Cheryl Cole in it, but the, and the other three actors are people who aren't particularly well known, and, she's going to bring an audience and they are also going to see and it's going to raise their profile.
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And also that, that is just now, if you want to have a play.
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Going in the West End.
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It's like, you can't just always employ like, like, jobbing actors because it's not necessarily going to get bums on seats.
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Everyone is struggling so much.
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Um, and I, yeah, I thought, I thought you made a really compelling point for the star casting.
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I think, yeah, it is something that mildly irritates me, I guess.
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I don't think I did know that person who was talking on Facebook.
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I remember the exchange absolutely really well.
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I think it was just something, you know, somebody on Facebook basically.
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But I, you know, it, I understand the frustration of being an actor, particularly maybe an out of work actor and kind of looking at these people and, and, you know, in the way that authors probably feel when they see celebrity authors coming in and writing children's books and, and, um, you know, that, that kind of thing.
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And I totally get that, but We, we can't un invent the world we live in, as you say, and like, you know, within the West End, you know, particularly, the financial risks are large, and you, you need somebody who gives the audience the confidence to feel like, you know, that they, to feel that they're getting their money's worth, you know, I think, I, but what bothers me, I guess, is that idea about what an actor is, like, when people say to me, like, why can't you cast an actor? I'm like, well, why aren't these people actors? What, you know, why is a Lily or a Cheryl not an actor? What, how do you define an actor? Is an actor only somebody who can afford to go to drama school? You know, surely if you can act, you are an actor.
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And, you know, these are people who are brilliant performers, you know, who've absolutely performed on stage as, as, as musicians and maybe as presenters, but also are constantly performing in their life.
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I think if you are somebody that famous and every time you step outside your door, you are in some way performing and you're, you're Conscious of that constant scrutiny that the gaze of the media on you, um, you know, they were brilliant.
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You know, Lily was nominated for an Olivier Award.
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Uh, you know, Cheryl had phenomenal reviews.
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Yeah, and, and, and Lily Allen, uh, is very much now doing some really hard hitting acting, you know, really kind of launched in that respect, and I didn't see Cheryl, but, um, people I know went to see it and were like, she absolutely smashed it.
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No, she was incredible.
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Yeah.
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And, you know, so that, that kind of bothers me that because I do think there's a snobbiness elitism to who can be an actor, but I, I do crucially think that, that, that what you mentioned about that, that kind of response about the idea of casting other people alongside them, it's such a big part of our strategy.
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We've always had that, that I've always been less than an actors alongside, uh, uh, Big name actors and it does give us this amazing platform to help to help people kind of, you know play a west end lead when perhaps they wouldn't normally get that chance, you know, and I think You know, it's huge and I, I just think like everything that we do as a production helps theatre.
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You know, if we're bringing huge amounts of people into watch theatre and we know tangibly from the kind of all the stats, you know, everything is so brilliantly meticulously recorded now, um, in terms of who is buying your tickets.
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We know there are loads of people coming to watch our, our show who do not normally come to the theatre, who may be, have never come to the theatre before.
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before.
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Certainly have never been to a play before.
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I've been to a musical, but you know, don't kind of traditionally come to plays.
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They're coming in, you know, it's, it's almost, you know, very dominantly under 35 audience and that kind of the lifeblood, what, what in, you know, the BBC, they call the replenishers, you know, the idea of replenishing the audience who are dying out, you know, um, and, um, And, you know, despite all these people coming in, if they come and see us, then maybe they'll go and see something else.
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They might go, I like theatre, it's good.
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You know, and I just think, you know, we have to, as, as an art form, as theatre, we have to appeal to younger people.
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You've got to reach out.
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You've got to, you've got to be more exciting than staying at home and watching Netflix.
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How do you do that? You know, you cast people that, that people are excited to go and see, you know, and so it makes so much sense to me, I think, really.
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And, um, I, I, Yeah, I don't know.
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Like, I think COVID presented massive challenges to theatre, you know, and clearly many theatres struggled.
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Some theatres, you know, um, faced existential crisis.
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But I think it also presented a lot of opportunities to reshape this theatre landscape, I think.
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And I think for a long time, there'd been a status quo of a lot of theatres were getting by on oldies, on the grey pound, basically coming and, and, and, you know, watching relatively safe.
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theater and, and, and keeping it ticking along.
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I think when those people didn't want to come out during and post COVID, but there was a huge amount of younger people who desperately want to go out and spend their money.
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That, that was a huge opportunity.
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And I think, you know, shows like ours, which, which, um, appeal to a younger audience, you know, I, I watched our show kind of flourish and, you know, go on for like, what's been three years now, whereas a lot of other shows that previously might've been bankers didn't because they just couldn't reach that That younger audience.
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I think it's a wake up call.
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And I think as theatre makers, we've got to be aware to bring that younger audience in.
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I think casting is a huge part of it.
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I think, you know, ticket pricing is another.
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I've made a real stand about the cost of tickets as well.
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I think we've got to price sensibly to draw in a younger crowd.
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Yeah.
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It's like, yeah, you're going to, you put Spider Man in Romeo and Juliet.
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That's great.
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That's a great move.
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But then if you make the ticket 300 quid, Yeah.
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you're not going to get the kids who watch Spider Man coming to see it.
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I feel really strongly about this.
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It's something I've spoken about a lot, really.
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And I feel if there's one thing threatening the future of theatre at the moment, it is the cost of tickets, really.
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And I totally appreciate it.
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Every time you talk to producers, they will tell you, it just costs a hell of a lot to put these plays on.
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And I absolutely, totally get that.
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But I know that on 2.
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22, we consciously reduced our ticket prices.
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We took our ticket prices down.
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To something much much lower than the average price, you know, I think certainly for a while we were you know Our top price ticket was 65 pounds, you know Right in the kind of the the heart of the cost of living crisis and you know, we took a hit We weren't making as much money as we could have done, you know, if we'd been charging more but we were Staying open.
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We were, we were full.
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We were, you know, bringing in swathes and swathes of younger people.
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And I see on social media so many people saying to me like, thanks for that.
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I was able to come and see your play because I could afford it.
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I couldn't, I couldn't go to something else because I couldn't, you know, and um, it's as simple as that really.
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And I have booked a few things for my family recently where basically it's 400 quid for a family of four.
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And that just seems massive to me.
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I think, you know, huge.
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It's ridiculous.
278
00:30:16,394.8872121 --> 00:30:51,239.8872121
Theatre should not be the cost of a holiday, it should be the cost of going out for dinner, you know, it should be the cost of an evening out, you know, cost of, you know, let's not go for that fancy dinner this evening, let's go to theatre instead, you know, it shouldn't be like having to make a decision about whether you can, you know, sort of heat your house or eat, you know, I mean, like, you know, if you're shelling hundreds and hundreds of quid to take your family to the theatre, then but for two such a, such a burden on the piece as well, you're sitting there going, is this really worth? 400 quid, you know, is it, you know, it's, it's, it's not, that's not what any actor wants.
279
00:30:51,269.8872121 --> 00:31:00,914.8872121
They don't wanna be walking out with people going like, God, oh, I dunno if this is worth the, the, you know, 200 quid I paid for a ticket, or, Yeah, yeah, it's, uh, it's really, it's really brutal.
280
00:31:01,244.8862121 --> 00:31:10,84.8872121
Yeah, I took my little girl to see Six a few weeks back and, and it was like 65 quid a ticket and I was like, that's fair, you know, the people on stage are working really hard.
281
00:31:10,114.8872121 --> 00:31:10,974.8872121
It's a really great show.
282
00:31:11,24.8872121 --> 00:31:14,734.8872121
It's only an hour long that, uh, that, yeah, that, that makes sense to me.
283
00:31:14,734.8872121 --> 00:31:17,794.8872121
But I think when the minute a ticket, I think hits.
284
00:31:18,14.8872121 --> 00:31:18,894.8872121
three figures.
285
00:31:19,164.8872121 --> 00:31:22,904.8872121
Whoever is on stage and whatever they're doing.
286
00:31:23,64.8872121 --> 00:31:35,220.9872121
And I think also like, you know, especially when like, um, when like Sarah Snook was doing that one handed picture of Dorian Gray and I looked at the ticket prices and I was like, but that's a cast of one.
287
00:31:35,220.9872121 --> 00:31:37,409.7872121
It's just so insane.
288
00:31:38,194.8872121 --> 00:31:48,119.8872121
It, it, I think it's, it's a very dangerous thing to turn an, any art form into a luxury item, you know, and, and to, and to make it feel excluding in that way.
289
00:31:48,119.8872121 --> 00:31:51,689.8872121
And I, I think theater has been excluding in so many ways.
290
00:31:51,834.8872121 --> 00:31:53,394.8872121
over the years really for a lot of people.
291
00:31:53,394.8872121 --> 00:31:59,694.8872121
I think a lot of people do not feel in any way literate or comfortable in how you navigate theatre.
292
00:31:59,694.8872121 --> 00:32:06,364.7862121
You know, like, you know, just sort of sitting in a space feeling awkward, you know, kind of just, just, you know, I don't know.
293
00:32:06,364.8862121 --> 00:32:21,564.8872121
I, I just think that the, and, and, and prices, you know, The biggest exploiter of all, because we, you know, we all know those shops or those hotels, whatever we've walked into, we know they are not for us, you know, that for somebody else because we can't afford them, you know, I actually, I can't even afford to buy a drink in this place.
294
00:32:22,44.8872121 --> 00:32:26,484.8872121
And, and, and you just don't want people feeling like that because they, they will go away.
295
00:32:26,534.8872121 --> 00:32:31,524.8862121
They'll, they'll, they'll vote with their feet, they'll go elsewhere and they won't come and watch your show anymore.
296
00:32:31,534.8862121 --> 00:32:36,934.8872121
And so, but you know, by the time you've clocked that and realize that, um, you need to drop your ticket price, it'll be too late.
297
00:32:37,769.8872121 --> 00:32:38,159.8872121
Yeah.
298
00:32:38,859.8872121 --> 00:32:39,859.8872121
Oh, God.
299
00:32:39,969.8872121 --> 00:32:49,929.8872121
Um, so, uh, this podcast prompt is a, uh, it's very much about stage management, obviously, because I'm an ex stage manager.
300
00:32:50,309.8872121 --> 00:32:51,499.8872121
Um, so.
301
00:32:51,979.8872121 --> 00:33:12,509.7872121
We always ask people, because we are always very curious, people love this question, um, who is, or, and it could be a team or an individual, uh, like the best stage manager that you've worked with, somebody who just really sticks in your head for something that they did, or a way that they were uh, so I, I, I worked with the, the same, uh, same people.
302
00:33:13,459.8872121 --> 00:33:18,179.8872121
lot of the, I mean, a stage manager can be quite a few different things, can't it? There's different types of stage managers.
303
00:33:18,179.8872121 --> 00:33:26,309.8862121
There's the stage manager who runs the desk and fires the cues on the night, there's the kind of stage managers who's in the rehearsal room, the kind of company stage manager kind of thing.
304
00:33:26,509.8872121 --> 00:33:34,924.8872121
I've worked with the same person, um, A lot on 222 on that, uh, a woman called Kate McDowell, who, um, works with Matthew Dunster a lot.
305
00:33:34,954.8872121 --> 00:33:36,824.8872121
I think Matthew Dunster has her on all his shows.
306
00:33:36,834.8872121 --> 00:33:39,174.8862121
She's, she's kind of a bit, a bit more senior now.
307
00:33:39,174.8872121 --> 00:33:51,304.8872121
She's a company, uh, stage manager, but, but she's such a great calm presence and somebody who you just realized that, that, that, you know, there are many different.
308
00:33:51,949.8872121 --> 00:33:54,189.8872121
people you need in place for a show to be great.
309
00:33:54,569.8872121 --> 00:33:59,49.8872121
And it's not just person writing the thing or directing the thing or whatever.
310
00:33:59,49.8872121 --> 00:34:08,889.8862121
There's got, there's got to be that, that person who's there to make everyone feel safe and comfortable and to give that kind of solidity to the whole thing.
311
00:34:08,929.8872121 --> 00:34:14,989.8872121
And that person is many points of vital cog in, in, in the wheels of getting a show on stage.
312
00:34:14,989.8872121 --> 00:34:17,509.8872121
So, you know, Kate's been great on that.
313
00:34:17,549.8872121 --> 00:34:28,704.8872121
And she's someone who Has kind of been, become a real part of the 222 family kind of coming back and doing various different incarnations of it and, um, yeah, so I'd probably say Heather, I think.
314
00:34:29,589.8872121 --> 00:34:37,789.8872121
We always like to know sort of who and why because, stage managers can be so many different things to, to so many different people.
315
00:34:37,799.8872121 --> 00:34:39,759.8862121
So we always kind of like to, to explore it.
316
00:34:40,179.8872121 --> 00:34:44,279.8872121
And the biggest question that we ask everybody, and I think I know the answer to this.
317
00:34:44,619.8862121 --> 00:34:47,969.8872121
It's also called prompt because of timekeeping.
318
00:34:48,149.8872121 --> 00:34:48,989.8872121
You may remember.
319
00:34:49,594.8872121 --> 00:34:51,704.8872121
that I'm quite a stickler for timekeeping.
320
00:34:54,824.8872121 --> 00:34:59,254.8872121
And so I want to know, Dani Robbins, if you are prompt.
321
00:35:01,654.8872121 --> 00:35:02,544.8872121
Traditionally, no.
322
00:35:02,724.8872121 --> 00:35:08,434.8872121
Um, I, I've, I've not, yeah, I've not really been, I mean, I was once defined by my lateness.
323
00:35:08,464.8872121 --> 00:35:13,659.8872121
I definitely was somebody who was always, Very, very, very late for things.
324
00:35:13,929.8872121 --> 00:35:15,289.8872121
I think that has changed.
325
00:35:15,289.8872121 --> 00:35:15,679.8872121
I've got older.
326
00:35:15,679.8872121 --> 00:35:20,339.8872121
I think having kids has probably made me a lot more prompt, I think, just because I'm up earlier.
327
00:35:21,79.8872121 --> 00:35:24,859.8872121
You know, they make me get up so early that I'm really late for a morning meeting now.
328
00:35:25,664.8872121 --> 00:35:33,774.8862121
Because my memory of you when we worked together at the park is that I'd turn up and you'd be like there in the foyer with a coffee.
329
00:35:34,144.8872121 --> 00:35:37,954.8872121
So I always kind of imagined But you were also pretty prompt.
330
00:35:37,954.9872121 --> 00:35:40,724.8872121
Ha ha ha I think it worked terms.
331
00:35:40,884.8872121 --> 00:35:41,614.8872121
Maybe I am.
332
00:35:41,624.8872121 --> 00:35:41,954.8872121
I don't know.
333
00:35:42,124.8872121 --> 00:35:43,114.8872121
I like efficiency.
334
00:35:43,294.8872121 --> 00:35:49,574.8872121
My wife is Swedish and the greatest quality that is most admired in Sweden is efficiency.
335
00:35:50,204.8872121 --> 00:36:04,39.8872121
And her complaint about Britain is often, it's so inefficient, you know, and, um, and I, uh, I, I think I do like efficiency and I like, um, I like to be surrounded by people who I feel like want to this as much as I do.
336
00:36:04,229.8872121 --> 00:36:05,89.8872121
I like hunger.
337
00:36:05,89.8872121 --> 00:36:05,829.8872121
I like ambition.
338
00:36:05,829.8872121 --> 00:36:11,539.8872121
I like, um, I like people to, to really, really kind of want to make this the best it could possibly be.
339
00:36:11,539.8872121 --> 00:36:20,879.8862121
And that sometimes that involves really, you know, putting ourselves to the test and like, you know, really kind of, uh, you know, it can be quite hard.
340
00:36:20,879.8872121 --> 00:36:21,529.8862121
It's quite a challenge.
341
00:36:21,529.8872121 --> 00:36:31,664.8872121
And so I've, I've always, you know, become frustrated by people who take the easy option and kind of found myself gravitating towards people who are prepared to take the hard option to get somewhere that feels better.
342
00:36:31,964.8862121 --> 00:36:34,424.8872121
And so I think, you know, sometimes being prompt is part of that.
343
00:36:34,434.8872121 --> 00:36:42,694.8872121
And I think, you know, putting the act there, the house, and then maybe, maybe I I'm, um, I'm, I'm not, you know, I am absolutely the person who comes in early.
344
00:36:42,694.8872121 --> 00:36:59,234.8872121
I'm, I think I'm definitely the person who stays late, you know? And, and I think, uh, that, that, um, that is something that I, um, I feel, yeah, I, I, I feel, over the years, I guess I, I, it's, it's about channeled focus working as well.
345
00:36:59,234.8872121 --> 00:37:05,94.8872121
I think, you know, a lot of times in my career, I was working every single hour of the day.
346
00:37:05,849.8872121 --> 00:37:07,169.8872121
But it was kind of futile.
347
00:37:07,169.8872121 --> 00:37:13,349.8872121
I was just trying to desperately kind of make things happen, grabbing at things, you know, sort of going, Oh, I'll try a bit of this, I'll try a bit of that, try a bit of that, try a bit of that.
348
00:37:13,509.8872121 --> 00:37:15,39.8872121
And actually you're just exhausting yourself.
349
00:37:15,289.8872121 --> 00:37:27,449.8872121
I think now I work hard, but it's in a very, very focused way, I think, you know, and, and, and knowing that, um, that that hard work, you know, kind of will, will help me reach certain targets.
350
00:37:27,499.8872121 --> 00:37:28,999.8872121
You know, it's not, it's not scattershot anymore.
351
00:37:29,564.8872121 --> 00:37:29,874.8872121
Mm.
352
00:37:30,234.8872121 --> 00:37:32,74.8872121
Yeah, no, I fully agree.
353
00:37:32,494.8872121 --> 00:37:38,344.8862121
Um, we, I, love talking about mistakes.
354
00:37:38,704.8862121 --> 00:37:47,59.8872121
I think, I think that in, I think that in theatre mistakes can be brilliant and beautiful.
355
00:37:47,449.8872121 --> 00:37:49,619.8872121
And I've said this before.
356
00:37:49,719.8872121 --> 00:37:53,904.8872121
I actually, I said it to Les Dennis, who's my very first guest that Oh, yeah.
357
00:37:54,269.8872121 --> 00:37:55,619.8872121
um, Lovely.
358
00:37:55,619.8872121 --> 00:38:03,489.8872121
Les, um, that sometimes theater is literally a group of people who've come together and are trying their very best for two hours.
359
00:38:03,789.8872121 --> 00:38:06,739.8872121
And, but with the best will in the world, sometimes things go wrong.
360
00:38:06,959.8872121 --> 00:38:07,979.8872121
People make mistakes.
361
00:38:08,124.8872121 --> 00:38:09,464.8872121
things, things happen.
362
00:38:09,774.8872121 --> 00:38:12,904.8872121
Um, and sometimes the world of theater, like really great things can come from it.
363
00:38:12,914.8872121 --> 00:38:14,854.8872121
And we can also learn from our mistakes.
364
00:38:15,254.8872121 --> 00:38:20,484.8872121
Um, so I always love to hear, uh, a mistake that you would like to own and celebrate.
365
00:38:20,534.8872121 --> 00:38:23,304.8872121
And that can be like something that you've done or something that's happened on stage.
366
00:38:23,304.8872121 --> 00:38:28,489.9622121
It can be a mishap or it can be, uh, like a defining decision that you made.
367
00:38:28,489.9622121 --> 00:38:31,334.8872121
Love a absolutely do learn from mistakes.
368
00:38:31,334.8872121 --> 00:38:35,344.8872121
I think also, interestingly, theater is not one that is just peppered with mistakes.
369
00:38:35,344.8872121 --> 00:38:38,244.8867121
Mistakes are kind of the daily business of theater.
370
00:38:38,244.8867121 --> 00:38:42,464.8862121
I'm always struck by that every time I get the show report, um, for, for people.
371
00:38:42,984.8862121 --> 00:38:43,154.8862121
Yeah.
372
00:38:43,154.8862121 --> 00:38:45,594.8872121
Well, I think people outside of theater.
373
00:38:46,479.8872121 --> 00:39:03,439.8862121
I don't think they're at all aware of this, but like every night, uh, you are sent a show report by the stage manager that, that outlines what's happened and, and I, and I, you know, again, a lot of people within theater might not think that the writer bothers reading that, but I, I would say every night in bed and read that it would arrive like sort of, you know, 10 30 or whatever.
374
00:39:03,439.8862121 --> 00:39:05,629.8872121
And I, I would sit there and, and, and read that.
375
00:39:05,629.8872121 --> 00:39:14,549.8872121
And it says like, you know, tonight, so and so said his line slightly wrong or the, you know, the door didn't quite open properly or, you know, kind of the candle fell over all these kinds of things.
376
00:39:15,9.8862121 --> 00:39:33,394.8862121
Um, Um, and, and you kind of go, Oh dear, oh dear, actually, but then you kind of realize, well, look, this is just, it happens, doesn't it? If you've got people on stage, you know, every so often things go wrong and, and it strikes me that it's such a different art form to, um, to, to, to TV and to film and to, and to audio as well.
377
00:39:33,404.8872121 --> 00:39:39,904.8872121
All of those things you have to settle for good enough at a certain point, you know, there's a certain point where you cannot do anything more to it.
378
00:39:40,144.8872121 --> 00:39:41,91.5205455
You've got to show it to people.
379
00:39:41,91.5205455 --> 00:39:43,434.8872121
It's got to go on TV or whatever, and you can't change it.
380
00:39:43,464.8872121 --> 00:39:45,964.8872121
So it's never perfect, but you accept that.
381
00:39:46,439.8872121 --> 00:39:47,499.8872121
probably as good as it'll get.
382
00:39:48,149.8872121 --> 00:39:50,739.8872121
Whereas in theater, you're constantly chasing perfection.
383
00:39:50,909.8872121 --> 00:39:53,259.8872121
Every single night is the chance to reach perfection.
384
00:39:53,279.8872121 --> 00:39:57,79.8872121
But the flip side of that is you've got to accept mistakes as well.
385
00:39:57,359.8872121 --> 00:40:07,759.8872121
And it's, it seems in a way kind of lunacy that you would have a night in theater where you invite all the critics on one night, your press night, you know, and say, come and watch our play.
386
00:40:08,9.8872121 --> 00:40:11,419.8872121
But knowing that that's That's the agenda, knowing that anything could go wrong.
387
00:40:11,459.8872121 --> 00:40:18,669.8862121
I mean, why would you do that? But knowing that, you know, the set could fall over or somebody could forget their lines or, or projectile vomit on stage, all these sort of things.
388
00:40:18,679.8872121 --> 00:40:23,229.8872121
So, so that, that, that's an interesting, mad aspect of theater.
389
00:40:23,229.8872121 --> 00:40:29,539.7872121
I think that that kind of, um, both acceptance and yet ignoring of the fact that mistakes are the currency of theater.
390
00:40:29,539.8872121 --> 00:40:41,659.8872121
Um, in terms of my own personal mistakes, I mean, the one that haunts me and you, you can tell me whether this is a mistake or not, but I, I was in National Youth Theatre in my early days.
391
00:40:41,969.8872121 --> 00:40:56,279.8872121
I was in this amazing production of Othello in National Youth Theatre, which had Chiwetel Ejiofor as the lead, uh, Rachel Sterling was in it, uh, Orlando Bloom was a non speaking soldier in it, um, it just had this Amazing cast, loads of people.
392
00:40:56,299.8872121 --> 00:40:58,709.8872121
Alex McQueen, who people will know from the thick of it.
393
00:40:58,709.8872121 --> 00:41:01,169.8872121
You know, like just lots and lots of great actors in it.
394
00:41:01,169.8872121 --> 00:41:05,179.8862121
And little old me playing First Senator, a really irrelevant role.
395
00:41:05,539.8872121 --> 00:41:09,659.8872121
You get like one speech in some sort of political discussion with the Duke or something like that.
396
00:41:09,659.8872121 --> 00:41:12,849.8872121
And I had this one speech, and I'm doing my speech.
397
00:41:13,289.8872121 --> 00:41:17,959.8872121
And then just suddenly, in the middle of my speech, I dry.
398
00:41:18,874.8872121 --> 00:41:34,534.8862121
I just cannot for the life of me remember what I'm saying and it's excruciating and I find my leg going into spasm and kicking out behind me almost as if I'm trying to kickstart a motorbike or something like that, trying to get myself going again.
399
00:41:34,624.8872121 --> 00:41:37,134.8862121
And I just totally frozen.
400
00:41:37,134.8872121 --> 00:41:43,334.8872121
I could see everybody else looking at me, all the other actors looking at me going, What the hell are you doing? You're screwing up the play.
401
00:41:43,544.8872121 --> 00:41:45,124.8872121
You're, you're so irrelevant.
402
00:41:45,134.8872121 --> 00:41:48,764.8872121
Just get through your little speech, you know, let Othello and Iago do their thing.
403
00:41:48,764.8872121 --> 00:41:58,484.8862121
What, why, why? And I can feel the audience behind me kind of going, Oh, you know, God, what, you know, what is happening? And it haunts me.
404
00:41:58,484.9862121 --> 00:42:00,194.8862121
You know, I talk about ghosts all the time.
405
00:42:00,354.8872121 --> 00:42:01,144.8872121
This is my ghost.
406
00:42:01,184.8872121 --> 00:42:01,844.8872121
This haunts me.
407
00:42:02,154.8872121 --> 00:42:05,684.8872121
And, um, I'm fascinated by the physical reaction.
408
00:42:05,694.8872121 --> 00:42:08,44.8872121
Your leg! it was, literally physical.
409
00:42:08,44.8872121 --> 00:42:09,794.8872121
It was like, you know, it was like, you know, panic.
410
00:42:09,864.8872121 --> 00:42:15,924.8872121
I was going into spasm and, and, and every time I step out on the stage now, it still haunts me.
411
00:42:16,24.8872121 --> 00:42:19,584.8872121
You know, I I've just done a tour with uncanny 76 shows.
412
00:42:19,584.8872121 --> 00:42:21,124.8872121
I did every single night.
413
00:42:21,424.8872121 --> 00:42:23,224.8862121
I thought about that at some point.
414
00:42:23,294.8872121 --> 00:42:28,84.8872121
And I find myself just drifting off into my own little head at a certain point going, don't forget your lines.
415
00:42:28,194.8872121 --> 00:42:28,814.8872121
Don't screw it up.
416
00:42:28,854.8872121 --> 00:42:29,524.8872121
Don't do that moment.
417
00:42:29,524.8872121 --> 00:42:33,899.8872121
And, um, And, and, and I don't know, is that a mistake? I don't know.
418
00:42:33,899.8872121 --> 00:42:38,49.8872121
I mean, it's sort of, I, I didn't, you know, it wasn't a conscious thing.
419
00:42:38,59.8872121 --> 00:42:40,559.8862121
It wasn't something I deliberately decided to do.
420
00:42:40,559.8872121 --> 00:42:42,419.8872121
It wasn't through any lack of skill or ability.
421
00:42:42,419.8872121 --> 00:42:48,509.8862121
I think it was just one of those things that happens, like a glitch in the matrix, but it, it, it, it, yeah, it will never leave me.
422
00:42:48,509.8872121 --> 00:42:48,979.7872121
I don't think.
423
00:42:49,424.8872121 --> 00:43:05,614.8872121
Yeah, we've, we've had, uh, we've had people talk about, um, drying before the, the playwright and performer Tabby Lamb came on and, and talked about drying in, in, in the middle of a performance where of course all the producers had come because, you know, to see if, to see if they were going to facilitate a transfer.
424
00:43:06,204.8862121 --> 00:43:18,724.8862121
And, uh, it just, it sounds like, I think the word haunting is really interesting because it just, it does sound like a really terrifying experience to just be on stage in front of all those people going, I've completely.
425
00:43:18,969.8872121 --> 00:43:21,189.8872121
lost the power of speech.
426
00:43:21,639.8872121 --> 00:43:24,79.8872121
it's horrible and a horrible powerless thinking.
427
00:43:24,79.8872121 --> 00:43:52,124.8872121
I mean, I can, I can think of other mistakes that I contributed much more consciously to what I can, I can remember very clearly this is pre pre career, but I can remember being a sixth former and going into school, wearing my mum's dungarees without a top on underneath with my little naked torso, skinny little pasty torso under these rather voluminous dungarees and having to get through a whole day of realizing I'd made a very, very big mistake there.
428
00:43:52,124.8872121 --> 00:43:57,24.8872121
Like, you know, there are definitely mistakes where I've, I've, I've got into it thinking like this will be great.
429
00:43:57,114.8862121 --> 00:44:03,354.8872121
And then it's not, you know, and, and, you know, comedy shows I've done, you know, stand up shows where I've thought, you know, this routine is brilliant.
430
00:44:03,404.8872121 --> 00:44:04,504.8872121
And then it's clearly terrible.
431
00:44:04,504.8872121 --> 00:44:13,714.8872121
I think, you know, you can absolutely have, um, you know, things which are driven by a misguided, um, idea that they're going to be great.
432
00:44:13,774.8872121 --> 00:44:14,969.8872121
But, but But that is how you learn.
433
00:44:14,974.8872121 --> 00:44:16,994.8872121
uh, yeah, that's how you learn.
434
00:44:17,4.8872121 --> 00:44:24,324.8872121
You experiment, you try things out, but I think that this was, this was a horrible thing because it felt like a, a massive mistake that I didn't see coming and didn't contribute towards.
435
00:44:24,384.8862121 --> 00:44:24,694.8872121
And I guess.
436
00:44:25,564.8872121 --> 00:44:27,484.7872121
You know, I don't know.
437
00:44:27,484.8872121 --> 00:44:33,244.8872121
I don't think I was struck by on my tour recently is that every theater has a ghost story.
438
00:44:33,804.8872121 --> 00:44:56,619.8872121
And, um, and all, almost all the ghost stories I was told were quite tragic stories of failure, you know, of people's mistakes of, of, you know, Uh, plays that went wrong and the writer threw himself to his death from the balcony or, you know, a kind of, uh, an actress who was in love with somebody else, you know, but she'd chosen the wrong guy and, you know, she'd made a stubborn mistake and her marriage was ruined.
439
00:44:56,619.8872121 --> 00:45:05,749.8872121
So she threw herself to the death, you know, whatever, you know, things like that, you know, or sort of, you know, accidents backstage, that kind of thing, you know, there was lots of failure, you know, lots of failure, lots of mistakes.
440
00:45:05,989.8872121 --> 00:45:08,89.8872121
And I sort of felt in a way, the ghosts.
441
00:45:08,649.8872121 --> 00:45:11,9.8872121
were very necessary because they took the pressure off us.
442
00:45:11,9.8872121 --> 00:45:16,569.8872121
You know, if these ghosts had failed and made mistakes in the past, and maybe that, that took the pressure off us.
443
00:45:16,569.8872121 --> 00:45:18,689.8872121
There was somebody who'd already done it in that space.
444
00:45:18,689.8872121 --> 00:45:30,559.8872121
It was now watching over us benignly in the wings, you know, as a phantom presence, you know, so I, yeah, I guess, you know, I find myself thinking a lot about the theater being a place full of mistakes and failure.
445
00:45:31,759.8872121 --> 00:45:35,639.8872121
But I, I think, yeah, I think that we should just celebrate it more.
446
00:45:35,639.8872121 --> 00:45:41,619.8862121
I get quite frustrated sometimes when people are like, oh, but you're not going to put that in the show report, are you? And I'm like, no, just put it in the show report.
447
00:45:41,629.8862121 --> 00:45:42,369.8862121
It's fine.
448
00:45:42,379.8862121 --> 00:45:42,829.8862121
It's just.
449
00:45:43,729.8872121 --> 00:46:00,799.8872121
You know, just, it's, I think otherwise, because if I was the, you know, the playwright or the director sat at home and every single show report was like, oh yeah, nothing happened today, nothing happened today, nothing happened today, I'd be like, whatever, like, of course some things, things are happening, you know, um, That's very true, actually.
450
00:46:01,129.8872121 --> 00:46:23,189.8872121
I think, and yeah, when we had Mark Ravenhill on, we talked about the show report a lot, and I was saying, I think, I always try to put something, when I'm writing my show reports, if the writer is alive, I always try and put something in that's kind of more for the writer, because I imagine that they're quite interested in how Being received.
451
00:46:23,579.8872121 --> 00:46:29,779.8872121
Um, and, uh, yeah, I, I, I think, I think the show report should be, it should be celebrating everyone's mistakes.
452
00:46:29,779.8872121 --> 00:46:33,139.8872121
I don't think it should be trying to try, trying to hide them.
453
00:46:33,559.8872121 --> 00:46:38,194.8872121
Um, You play, we learn from them, you know, so they are, they are part of that search for perfection.
454
00:46:39,379.8872121 --> 00:46:42,319.8872121
um, you know, it's the same thing is going to show port every single day.
455
00:46:42,319.8872121 --> 00:46:44,479.8872121
You go, oh, okay, well, you know, we need to address this.
456
00:46:44,479.8872121 --> 00:46:45,919.8872121
But it's, yeah, it's, it's good.
457
00:46:45,949.8872121 --> 00:46:49,699.8872121
It's good for stuff to go in and go, oh, okay, that happened, but it hasn't happened again.
458
00:46:50,169.8872121 --> 00:46:53,559.8872121
Um, so we're gonna finish up shortly with, uh.
459
00:46:54,114.8872121 --> 00:46:55,504.8872121
the question that we ask everybody.
460
00:46:56,374.8872121 --> 00:47:06,994.8872121
If you became artistic director of the National Theatre, what is something that you would put in place? And it can be, it can be anything.
461
00:47:07,4.8872121 --> 00:47:14,634.8872121
It can be a play that you would stage or somebody you would cast or something you would serve in the bar.
462
00:47:14,634.9872121 --> 00:47:21,734.8872121
Can be your first day in office, what would you do? interesting question.
463
00:47:21,774.8872121 --> 00:47:31,14.8872121
Um, I, um, I think fun for me is the most important word, full stop in theatre right now.
464
00:47:31,14.8872121 --> 00:47:38,424.8872121
I think that we've got to make theatre feel fun and it's got to feel more fun than staying in, I think, really.
465
00:47:38,424.8872121 --> 00:47:52,964.8862121
So I would, Absolutely look at the kind of people I was casting and the plays I was choosing to do in terms of reaching out to that younger audience that we talked about, I guess, and making it feel really fun and really exciting.
466
00:47:52,984.8872121 --> 00:47:53,514.8862121
I don't know.
467
00:47:53,544.8872121 --> 00:47:54,84.8862121
I just feel like.
468
00:47:55,304.8872121 --> 00:48:06,954.8862121
I've seen quite a few things recently that were quite good and just That's a terrible review of something.
469
00:48:07,484.8872121 --> 00:48:17,554.8872121
isn't it, but, but, but, but, you know, none of them, you know, I just took my kids to some of them and they thought it was okay, but, but none of them blew their minds.
470
00:48:17,604.8872121 --> 00:48:19,74.8872121
And I just remember being a kid.
471
00:48:20,254.8872121 --> 00:48:20,864.8872121
Loving theater.
472
00:48:20,874.8872121 --> 00:48:21,964.8872121
I was such a precocious kid.
473
00:48:21,964.8872121 --> 00:48:24,4.8872121
I went to see the RSC when I was about six or seven.
474
00:48:24,464.8872121 --> 00:48:29,524.8872121
Uh, and I remember being hooked by seeing Rain on stage, but just these exciting performances.
475
00:48:29,674.8862121 --> 00:48:31,994.8862121
And I, I, I remember how I felt.
476
00:48:32,404.8872121 --> 00:48:40,594.8872121
And I guess my agenda going into something like National Theater would be to make other people feel how I felt as that kid, really, you know, to kind of bring that magic back.
477
00:48:40,624.8872121 --> 00:48:44,794.8872121
I do think theater is a, a place where magic is possible.
478
00:48:44,924.8872121 --> 00:48:49,724.8872121
And, uh, you know, again, going back to that idea of, the paranormal.
479
00:48:49,724.8872121 --> 00:48:59,244.8862121
I think a lot of the paranormal is that desire for a sense of magic, you know, that for many of us, we live in a, a sort of godless, magicless universe.
480
00:48:59,244.8872121 --> 00:49:14,524.8872121
You know, if you are brought up as an atheist, uh, you, you, you know, you, you don't have that sense of wow, or, and, and, and magic, uh, you know, you might take that from just observing the beauty of the natural world, I guess, but that, that idea that, that.
481
00:49:15,129.8872121 --> 00:49:16,509.8872121
invisible magic can happen.
482
00:49:16,509.8872121 --> 00:49:18,469.8872121
I think, you know, it's, it's why we're hooked on Harry Potter.
483
00:49:18,829.8872121 --> 00:49:19,139.8872121
Yes.
484
00:49:19,169.8872121 --> 00:49:19,489.8872121
Yeah.
485
00:49:19,879.8872121 --> 00:49:20,869.8872121
That's why we're like Harry Potter.
486
00:49:20,869.8872121 --> 00:49:21,479.8872121
It's why we like Star Wars.
487
00:49:21,639.8872121 --> 00:49:26,199.8872121
Why would I always say that idea, that idea of magic? And I think theater is a place to create magic.
488
00:49:26,199.8872121 --> 00:49:30,919.8862121
It's a room where we all sit together and, and it's like, it's has a semi religious quality to it.
489
00:49:30,919.8872121 --> 00:49:31,699.8867121
It's like a ritual.
490
00:49:31,699.8867121 --> 00:49:31,789.8862121
Yeah.
491
00:49:32,79.8872121 --> 00:49:49,924.8862121
Uh, I'm often struck by sitting, watching my play that there's a kind of ritual going on between actors and, um, an audience and me, the playwright conjuring up this thing kind of, you know, there's a, there's then we all, the clap, I'm always sometimes I'm like, who decided that like, once the play finished, all the people sat in the audience would like, bang their hands together.
492
00:49:50,94.8872121 --> 00:49:53,854.8872121
Like, there's that kind of ritualistic thing to it.
493
00:49:53,854.9872121 --> 00:49:56,254.8872121
Who, who decided that was the thing? We all do it.
494
00:49:56,409.9872121 --> 00:49:57,449.8872121
Um, it.
495
00:49:57,519.8872121 --> 00:50:00,239.8872121
But I just, I just, you know, I would really want to create that magic.
496
00:50:00,239.8872121 --> 00:50:15,79.8872121
And just, if you could, if you could make kids and younger people come and see something in your theater and walk away, mind fully blown, evangelizing, going off and telling people like, you've got to go and see this, you know, you have to get inside that national theater.
497
00:50:15,379.8872121 --> 00:50:18,559.8872121
The only way I can talk to you about this thing is for you to go and see it too.
498
00:50:18,559.8872121 --> 00:50:19,609.8872121
You've got to go and do that.
499
00:50:20,39.8872121 --> 00:50:30,979.8872121
And, you know, I'm vain enough to think that we do that with 222, you know, I think, I think I see people on social media kind of evangelizing about this play going off and telling their friends, you've got to go and see it.
500
00:50:31,359.8872121 --> 00:50:40,229.8872121
Come and see it, you know, and I think we've been able to do that in a commercial space, you know, and it's this combination of all sorts of things, the staging, the casting, the writing, all these kind of things.
501
00:50:40,519.8872121 --> 00:50:46,579.7872121
I would love to see that done somewhere like the National Theatre, you know, kind of sort of publicly funded.
502
00:50:46,979.8872121 --> 00:51:06,899.8862121
place, uh, where, you know, just, you know, can we make people feel that excited by theater? You know, can you, can you get to a stage where it is the most talked about thing around, you know, and I, I, that, that would be my aim, my, my kind of manifesto coming in about, about let's, let's just do things that, that just.
503
00:51:07,879.8872121 --> 00:51:17,789.8872121
Yeah, that you can't not come and see basically, you know, and I it's very easy to say that and there's so many different considerations and it's such a hugely broad audience to serve.
504
00:51:17,979.8872121 --> 00:51:26,169.8872121
But I think just if there was one or two things every season that just, you know, kind of made you kind of feel giddy and excited and the pit of your stomach just to sit in that room.
505
00:51:26,669.8872121 --> 00:51:31,579.8872121
Um, you know, I'm not saying those things don't don't exist, but I just think that, you know, that that would be my brief.
506
00:51:31,579.8872121 --> 00:51:33,339.8872121
That would be my agenda coming in.
507
00:51:33,479.8872121 --> 00:51:35,159.8862121
That's that's what day one.
508
00:51:35,159.8872121 --> 00:51:37,619.8872121
I would sit in the room with people and say, you know, let's find those things.
509
00:51:38,709.8872121 --> 00:51:41,819.8872121
That is a great answer to that question.
510
00:51:41,829.8872121 --> 00:51:45,419.8872121
I think it's definitely one of my favourite answers to that question.
511
00:51:45,469.8872121 --> 00:51:47,999.8872121
I love, people interpret it in so many different ways.
512
00:51:49,49.8872121 --> 00:51:50,679.8872121
That was a great interpretation.
513
00:51:51,579.8872121 --> 00:51:57,379.7872121
And Absolutely.
514
00:51:58,639.8872121 --> 00:52:10,809.8862121
Well, Dani Robbins, it's been such a joy to, uh, to reconnect with you and, uh, to hear about your travels around America and your incredible success being the new ghost hunter.
515
00:52:10,809.9862121 --> 00:52:13,639.8872121
Uh, so yes, thank you very much for coming on.
516
00:52:14,69.8872121 --> 00:52:14,609.8872121
Thank you.
517
00:52:14,609.8872121 --> 00:52:15,179.8872121
It was a pleasure.
518
00:52:15,639.8872121 --> 00:52:16,49.8872121
Good.
519
00:52:20,556.8390507 --> 00:52:23,136.8390507
That was the brilliant Danny Robbins.
520
00:52:23,286.8390507 --> 00:52:25,476.8390507
Um, what an amazing guy.
521
00:52:25,596.8390507 --> 00:52:26,586.8390507
So interesting.
522
00:52:26,616.8390507 --> 00:52:28,326.8390507
And just so delighted.
523
00:52:28,746.8390507 --> 00:52:33,126.8390507
Um, that he has, uh, achieved all of that success.
524
00:52:33,156.8390507 --> 00:52:33,816.8390507
It's incredible.
525
00:52:34,206.8390507 --> 00:52:39,186.8390507
Um, If you enjoyed that episode, if you've enjoyed the series, I would love to hear from you.
526
00:52:39,186.8390507 --> 00:52:42,336.8390507
You can email me, prompt the podcast@gmail.com
527
00:52:42,336.8390507 --> 00:52:46,866.8390507
or you can follow me on Instagram prompt, underscore podcast, or Jess, Lucy, brunch.
528
00:52:46,926.8390507 --> 00:52:55,26.8390507
Um, I would love to hear your thoughts about this episode, season one in general, what you think we should be doing for season two, and hopefully we'll be back.
00:00:16,555.454545455 --> 00:00:18,145.454545455
Hello, and welcome to prompt.
2
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A podcast that looks at fair to, from Um perspective of me Jess and act stage manager.
3
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Join me as I chat to a wide range of theater practitioners about their experiences, mistakes and whether or not they are indeed prompt.
4
00:00:36,948.121212121 --> 00:00:42,318.121212121
Hello, welcome to this episode of prompt, which is brought to you by Lee Alloway therapy.
5
00:00:42,618.121212121 --> 00:00:51,78.121212121
Lee alleyway is a counselor and psychotherapist who specializes in supporting the mental health of performers and creatives in theater and entertainment.
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00:00:51,438.121212121 --> 00:00:59,988.121212121
Operating exclusively on zoom Lee alleyway therapy is ideal for professionals on tour or on location, as well as those working in the west end.
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00:01:00,288.121212121 --> 00:01:07,518.121212121
Lee offers a free initial consultation on zoom, which gives you an opportunity to see if you'll be a good fit working together.
8
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If you reach out to Lez, don't forget to mention prompt.
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His website is Lee Alloway therapy.com.
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Um, Alloway is spelled E double L a w a Y.
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And on social media, he is at li LOA therapy.
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Hello, and thank you so much for downloading this episode.
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It is the final episode of season one.
14
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Um, I didn't know how many episodes.
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Season one was going to be, I just sort of kept making them really.
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I didn't really know when I was going to stop.
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But, uh, it feels like the right time.
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It feels like the right time for a couple of reasons.
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Um, first of all, having Danny Robbins on the podcast is a real full circle moment for me.
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Um, when I sort of, this random idea came to me that I should make a Popsicle cast.
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Um, I started contacting a few people and he was one of the very first people that I contacted.
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Um, I really, really wanted him to be on it.
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Um, firstly, because, uh, he's an incredible creative, um, with everything that he's achieved with 2 22 and the bath seat Poltergeist and uncanny.
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Um, and secondly, because, um, he has very successful podcasts.
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So I was like, well, if I don't know what I'm doing, Hopefully he will.
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We'll stay me in the right direction.
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Um, but because he's just like the most busy human being in the whole wide world.
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Um, it took a long time.
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So it ended up that he's the last person to be on the C series, not the first.
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So I thought that that was kind of a nice way to round it up with the person that I asked.
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Um, first.
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To be the last guest.
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Um, and secondly, uh, because I would say that my battery at the moment is not about 10% and if I've learnt anything.
34
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From my years on this planet, it is to stop when you were at 10%, not when you are.
35
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At 1%.
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Um, so I am gonna take a bit of a break.
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Um, This podcast.
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It's so much work.
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It's more work.
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Than I ever dreamed was possible.
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Um, and, uh, I just want to take a bit of a moment.
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I also want to like market it properly.
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I want to get some better equipment.
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I want to kind of look at what I've made and workout.
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How to make it better for season two.
46
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Um, I've already got some great guests lined up, but I just want to take a moment.
47
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Um, and also, you know, just focus, um, give a bit more focus to my family, my children, um, my job, the job that I actually do get paid to do.
48
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Um, is changing slightly, um, in a really exciting way.
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Um, I'm really excited about, so I just need to put some of my efforts and energy into that.
50
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So yeah.
51
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I could see burnout on the horizon, so decided to, um, To slow things down, put a brake on.
52
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Call it and to season one.
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And, uh, and hopefully if, if you guys are enjoying this, we'll be back with season two.
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Um, so my guest today is the amazing Danny Robbins.
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Um, playwrights podcaster.
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Um, the general spokesperson for the paranormal world.
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Uh, this was w what a way to Emissary's.
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This was such a great chart.
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He was, uh, incredibly candid, had very strong opinions, was a lot of fun.
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Um, I could have listened to him.
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Talk for hours.
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I think playwrights, um, the same with mark Ravenhill makes such great guests.
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Because they have stories that they want to tell.
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And I think that my podcast, um, is a really good form for that.
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Um, so we really, really hope you enjoy it.
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Um, and yeah, if you've got any thoughts on what we should be doing differently for season two, Do let me know.
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So here's Danny Robbins enjoy.
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Uh, hello, Danny Robbins, and thank you so much for coming on prompt.,
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it's a miracle that you're here, because you are the busiest man, I think, in showbiz.
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Getting this, uh, interview in, was so tricky.
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Right at the very beginning, when I was like, oh yeah, I think I'm gonna have a crack at this, um, at this podcast log.
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And I had, like, my dream list of guests.
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that you were on and you were one of the first people who agreed to come on to it and, uh, and you're one of the last who's actually come because you're so ridiculously busy.
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Um, but I am delighted that you're so busy because, uh, the success that you've achieved since we worked together, was it 2018, 2019? Think it was yeah, I think it was 2018.
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I think yeah Yeah, we did Enter the Pier together and, you know, and you were, that play was a, about a dark, it was a dark comedy, it was about being cancelled, a comedian being cancelled, um, and, uh, that sort of seemed to be the area that you were in, comedy, and then you have just, dominated the paranormal ones in a way that I was like, I never saw that coming.
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It's really incredible, uh, 2.
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22 and your podcast, the Battersea Poltergeist, absolute podcast goals, um, and Uncanny and now Uncanny being a television series.
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And you've just come back from this huge American tour.
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It's, it's really incredible.
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And so congratulations, because it's really hard to achieve.
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I think that level of success as a playwright and what you've done is, it's just incredible.
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Yeah, I've done a lot of different things over my career.
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And at times I think I felt too much of a jack of all trades trying to do a lot of different things.
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And I read, I read a really interesting article, actually, someone sent to me, which, uh, talked about creative people hitting a hot streak, what they described as a hot streak.
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And, uh, and it talked about a period of diversification followed by a period of intense focus, kind of, you know, honing in on one thing.
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And it really rang true with me that, that, that summed up exactly what I'd had.
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I think I had, uh, You know, a long time really, you know, a long career of trying to be many different things to many different people and, and experimenting and doing all sorts of different things, you know, comedy, documentaries, travel, writing, acting, all sorts.
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And, um, and then just more and more I became Well, I, you know, interested in certain ways of telling stories, but also honing in on that subject of, of the paranormal and ghosts.
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And I, I, it was something I've been fascinated by since I was a kid.
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I, you know, I was absolutely obsessed with ghost stories as a kid.
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I'd done various things about the paranormal over the years.
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I'd made documentaries.
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I'd done a Edinburgh comedy show that was a parody of Most Haunted.
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Lots of things like that.
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And just, yeah, I just found myself more and more wanting to talk about that subject.
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And I guess the ideas I started formulating were about that.
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And I think.
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The moment that I really gave myself over to that was the moment that I found I was creating the work that felt like my best work, but also finding an audience of people who were interested in the stories that I wanted to tell.
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And I guess that's the crucial thing, isn't it? Because you can be creating stories that you love, but you've got to find other people who love them.
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You've got to find an audience for your Your work, you know, um, and but but I would say that everything I did in the past has fed into that moment And I think that i've learned so many things from all the different things i've done and I don't regret any of those things Well, you know, you know most of those things I don't regret and and certainly, you know, I I feel like it's built up and there's a, there's a line I often think about, um, a Tennyson line from a poem called Ulysses, which is, I am part of all that I have met, you know, that you leave a little imprint on, on the people you meet, the things you do, but also they leave an imprint on you, I think.
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And every person I've worked with, everything I've done, I feel kind of feeds into, to what I am now.
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And I don't know.
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I don't feel I would be able to create the work I'm doing now at any other point in my life, really.
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I felt ready for it now, and I don't think I would have been ready in my twenties or my thirties.
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Yeah, it's, uh, it's, it's really incredible and, fascinating to watch and I'm just also really relieved because before people who were in the paranormal were like Yvette Fielding and Derek Okora, it's really great that we've got someone like you now doing the paranormal stuff because they were terrible because I've, I don't believe in ghosts, but I am interested in, uh, the way that, and you talked about it a lot in 2.
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22, the way that our bodies kind of react and respond when we, believe that we're maybe like in the presence of ghosts or whatever.
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Um, I find that really fascinating and I like that you kind of explore that a lot more instead of kind of the whole, you know, contacting the dead and stuff.
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And I think Yeah, what you were saying about finding that audience, I think that there were so many people who were interested in it, but we never had anybody like you kind of leading the charge because we had those people And they were just a bit, it's just, it was kind of creepy and you've kind of made the paranormal kind of like fun and interesting.
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Yeah, I guess I would say a word in defense of Most Haunted and I think that it did, you know, for a time make very entertaining television and it sort of, it, you know, it invented its own genre.
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I mean, so much of the paranormal TV around now, that kind of night vision camera screaming, all that sort of thing stems from that time.
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And yeah, I remember enjoying that as a, as a younger person and kind of, you know, liking it.
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I, I, I, yes, I mean, I guess what I have done is I've kind of legitimized an interest in the paranormal for people who don't believe in ghosts for skeptics, you know, and I think I was always really keen from the beginning that I wanted to make that our thing, because, you know, I was somebody who absolutely didn't know what I thought and was probably sort of much, much more on the skeptic side than the believer side.
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And I wanted, um, You know, I, I just, I felt it was vital.
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I felt it was vital to kind of tell both sides of the story.
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And, and yeah, the, I guess the key thing, I think that the big difference between what I do and most, you know, maybe all other paranormal broadcasting is that that is interested in places and I'm interested in people, you know, it's not about going to a place and camping out and seeing what might happen, which I think pretty much always leads to anticlimax.
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It's about a strange life changing moment for somebody and then describing that moment.
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And it's impossible to disappoint, I guess, because it's a very clear beginning and middle and then there's a moment where that person's life has transformed as the moment where the thing intensifies and becomes more and more bewildering and scary.
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And then there's a kind of the conclusion of how they feel about it, how it's changed them.
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And I think that's probably the big fundamental difference.
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But I love the fact that we have equal amounts of skeptics and believers coming to this.
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I love it.
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And I think that that's why I came to see 2 22 with its second cast with Giovanni Fletcher and James Buckley.
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And, uh, I just loved it because of the conversations that those four people had.
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It really sort of Pres Pres presented both sides of it, but also what I really loved, and maybe I completely projected something onto it that wasn't there.
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But like what you say about it being about people is that actually.
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I didn't think that that play was about a ghost.
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I thought that that play was about the horror and fear of postnatal depression.
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And maybe I'm totally projecting that onto it, but that's sort of what I came away from.
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Uh, that's what I took away from it.
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And, um, and also I just wanted to say that I thought that the way that you wrote that whole character of Jenny, um, I thought that you wrote very sympathetically from, as a man, I thought that if I'd gone to see that play and I hadn't known the gender of the playwright, I would have said, oh, that was written by a woman.
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I thought that you wrote about it incredibly sympathetically.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, thing to hear and, and, um, thank you so much.
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I mean, I I I, I feel very tough to hear you say that.
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Um, I, I, I think, you know, yeah, play and I hope, I hope mine is a good play.
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A, a, a good play, I think can be many different things to different people.
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And I, I I, I love the way that you can go and watch a play and interpret it in your own way.
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And, you know, the, the plays that I would want to put on, that I would want to direct that other people have written would be ones where you can put your stamp on it, you can interpret it and, and take the themes and, and.
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You know, and run with it.
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Um, I think that, um, yeah, I mean, I, I sort of feel like the, the, the paranormal is, um, you know, the, the, the history, the history of the paranormal is the history of humanity, really.
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It's an attempt to understand ourselves and it intertwines with religion so much because, you know, that also is a way to try and make sense of our experiences and all of the thoughts and feelings that we go through as human beings.
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Uh, you know, we can explain in many different ways and some people choose to explain them as ghosts and some people, you know, choose to explain them as, as the, the, um, You know, the produce of our mind, you know, um, and, uh, so yes, I mean, you know, it's it's a play that you could absolutely come to as a skeptic and see it as a play written for skeptics about what complex complex creatures human beings are and the kind of the mysteries, uh, that we create for ourselves.
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And as a believer, you could absolutely sit there going, this is absolutely proving that ghosts exist, you know, so, so, so I love that.
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I love that, uh, fact, you know, um, but Yeah, I mean, I wanted to create a play that felt like, uh, it was about real people.
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The thing I absolutely did not want is for people to be sitting in that audience and go, we're watching a play.
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You know, I often find myself going to the theater and sitting there going, well, this writer is so clever.
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And he said, look at that, that witty piffy line that he's constructed.
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Oh, the set's quite good, isn't it? Look at the makeup.
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You know, and I just wanted them to be, you know, You know, sitting there going, we are watching real people on stage, it's playing out in pretty much real time, in one room, you know, you're there, and, um, and, you're hooked, because there's a very clear premise at the beginning about we're going to stay up all night to this 2.
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22 point where Jenny's character feels that the ghost appears, and, do you believe in ghosts, you know, what's going to happen at the end of that night, is this going to, um, Prove that exists or not, but at the same time, you're watching this absolute hand grenade thrown into a relationship that question of, you know, if you love me, how can you not believe me and you're watching a relationship potentially unfold here, you know, so I think I often say that I like to think that I write horror for people who don't like horror and I think you know that when you're doing something scary and anything that kind of leans into the horror genre, it can be quite it.
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alienating and off putting, I think.
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You know, it can feel quite a niche genre, and I think often a genre that plays more to younger people.
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I think particularly when you become a parent, you often lose your threshold for the scary, uh, you know, and, and even for the thrilling.
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I know my wife doesn't like even mild peril these days.
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She, she, she finds that difficult.
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Um, but I think what draws you in in 222 is this very real relationship, you know, you're watching a real relationship and friendships around it, and you believe in these people, and the debate feels necessary, not just because it's kind of proving this, you know, what some people would see as an abstract of Do Ghosts Exist, it's testing the very kind of, uh, you know, the seismic lines of that relationship, and will that relationship last the night? And also, I don't know if you realised that you were doing it, while you were doing it, because I think it's so clever, but the character of Jenny, she is You know, and she's been played by so many different people, as there are so many memes on the internet, as we know.
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But also, what's so clever about it, um, is because she could be 20, she could be 40, she can be middle class, she can be working class, she can be from the north, she can be from the south, she can be from anywhere.
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She's just a woman who's just had a baby, and she's going through all the experiences and emotions that every woman has.
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who has a baby go through.
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And I was like, God, that's really clever that there's this lead role in a play that can be played by, like, anybody.
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And she has been played by so many different people, from like, all different ages, different skin colours, like, it's just it's very clever.
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But I don't know if you realised that when you were writing it.
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You were like, Oh wow, this person could be played by anyone.
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I've never had anything that was successful enough to kind of run through multiple casts in that way.
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And it's an amazing thing, an amazing realization, I think, as a writer, that, that maybe the idea you had in your head, not that it's not right, but that, but that you don't need to hold on to that idea that these roles can be many different things.
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And that, I think I would say that probably all four roles in the play could be played by anybody.
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from their, their, their 20s to their 40s, certainly, and I think Ben, one of the roles of the play, could be played by somebody up to their 60s, really, and I think it just, it brings very different things, different energies, depending on whether that person is younger or older, as you say, like working class or middle class, and I was always fascinated by the idea of, you know, allegiances in a play, in a forehand, the way that, you know, to, to get yourself through that, that evening of, of the play to chart our emotional journey, you need different characters at different times to, to form allegiances and to form rivalries and to form, you know, to become enemies.
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You know, you need that kind of constantly to shift, you know, and keep the audience on its toes.
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Um, and so I, I like the idea that you can find those in different ways throughout the play.
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You know, if you have a, a working class Jenny and a working class Ben, and that works as a real nice point of allegiance, you know, you can, you can have, um, you know, there's lots of different ways into that, I guess, I think, and it brings very, very different things to the play, like a younger Jenny with an older Sam, that relationship with the kind of man spirit, explaining, talking down to this younger woman, you know, if you then cast a younger Ben as well, and then that feels that kind of youth against Asian, you know, so yeah, I, I, I just, I really enjoyed watching the different incarnations.
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It's like watching Dr.
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Who regenerate, you know, each time, each time there's very, very different portrayals.
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And we've had American Lawrence, we've had Australian Lawrence, we've had all sorts, you know, Yeah.
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Because it's been like all over.
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It's, it's, it's done, uh, obviously like UK tours, uh, the West End, America, Australia, uh, it's, it's just the, the success of it is Yes.
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I mean, it's been across five continents now, and I've seen it performed in Swedish, in Sweden, and, and, um, I, I've seen, uh, you know, I, I, I've, you know, seen it in la you know, I, yeah, it's great.
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I mean, I, I, um, I find that interesting as well.
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I think that the theme to the play being really, you know, well, I guess that there's quite a few different themes, but certainly gentrification is one of them.
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But paranormal, clearly another, you know, but I, I guess, you know, parenthood and, and.
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how to chart a relationship once you become a parent, you know, all those things are very different in different countries, I think.
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And I found when I went across to, for both America and Australia, I rewrote the play and set it locally.
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Um, and that was really interesting because, you know, gentrification in America is definitely different to gentrification in the UK You know, I think I would say in the UK it's very class based.
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It's generally about kind of middle class people shifting working class communities out of areas and those working class communities can be very diverse racially.
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Um, but in America, it's much more about race, you know, it's basically about kind of richer white people displacing, uh, you know, kind of poor and non white people and I think it's um, it's uh, a different thing and I was very conscious and cautious writing the play for America.
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I didn't, I didn't want the play to become about race because I felt that that was not, uh, you know, it wasn't, you know, what the play was about, but also it wasn't a debate I felt capable of wading into really, you know, um, so, so I, I chose to set it in Boston, one of the places where I definitely thought I could sort of maintain that kind narrative about a working class community being displaced by a middle class community.
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But yeah, you know, it's been an interesting journey.
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Even with those translations, I kind of feel like I'm still learning more and more about what the play has within it and what it's capable of.
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Yeah, how do you, how do you feel, does it make you laugh when you see all the memes, like, you know, Liz Truss, uh, has been announced as Jenny? kind of thing.
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Um, yeah, laugh and slightly scared.
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Um, but, uh, uh, I, I, I do.
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I mean, I, it's lovely.
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I mean, I think, I, I do feel that, that Without wanting to sound like a mad megalomaniac type person, I do feel that it's kind of left a little imprint on the kind of cultural landscape.
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I do think it's sort of slightly changed the way that theatre can be and the way people think about theatre.
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And you know, I see other shows now doing Sort of, uh, that, that kind of thing, that idea of reincarnations.
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And I, I, I think, you know, that had been present.
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I mean, I remember if art, for instance, did it brilliantly, you know, where art would reincarnate this three hander cast each time.
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And sometimes it'd be a group of three comedians.
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Sometimes it'd be three women, you know, would kind of shift.
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It'd be the different takes on what that play could be.
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And so it's, it's not, it's not entirely original for sure.
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But I think what, what we really have done, I think, is to take somebody who feels culturally significant and important to our audience and, and allow them to have a moment where they can reposition themselves and change the way the world sees them.
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And I think that was really true of Lily Allen, really true of Cheryl, you know, and I think there were, there were people that we loved, we resonated, we felt warm towards, we'd grown up with in many ways and, and, uh, Then, you know, people, they've reached a moment in their career where they weren't quite sure what they wanted to do next and 222 allowed them to make this brilliant move to show how great they could be at acting and I, you know, I get stick sometimes on social media and it's normally from, actors, that's so interesting that you brought that up.
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I, I was wondering, but I was like, shall I bring it up? But you brought it up so I can go there now.
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So that's great.
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But I remember seeing, you know, you'd announced like on your personal Facebook saying, oh, you know, Cheryl Cole, we're so delighted to have Cheryl Cole, uh, as Jenny, and, uh, somebody who I presume you know had kind of gone for you.
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And your response, I'll always remember it, um, was really measured, and it also made such an interesting point that I hadn't thought of, because you were saying, yeah, you know, we've got Cheryl Cole in it, but the, and the other three actors are people who aren't particularly well known, and, she's going to bring an audience and they are also going to see and it's going to raise their profile.
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And also that, that is just now, if you want to have a play.
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Going in the West End.
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It's like, you can't just always employ like, like, jobbing actors because it's not necessarily going to get bums on seats.
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Everyone is struggling so much.
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Um, and I, yeah, I thought, I thought you made a really compelling point for the star casting.
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I think, yeah, it is something that mildly irritates me, I guess.
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I don't think I did know that person who was talking on Facebook.
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I remember the exchange absolutely really well.
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I think it was just something, you know, somebody on Facebook basically.
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But I, you know, it, I understand the frustration of being an actor, particularly maybe an out of work actor and kind of looking at these people and, and, you know, in the way that authors probably feel when they see celebrity authors coming in and writing children's books and, and, um, you know, that, that kind of thing.
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And I totally get that, but We, we can't un invent the world we live in, as you say, and like, you know, within the West End, you know, particularly, the financial risks are large, and you, you need somebody who gives the audience the confidence to feel like, you know, that they, to feel that they're getting their money's worth, you know, I think, I, but what bothers me, I guess, is that idea about what an actor is, like, when people say to me, like, why can't you cast an actor? I'm like, well, why aren't these people actors? What, you know, why is a Lily or a Cheryl not an actor? What, how do you define an actor? Is an actor only somebody who can afford to go to drama school? You know, surely if you can act, you are an actor.
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And, you know, these are people who are brilliant performers, you know, who've absolutely performed on stage as, as, as musicians and maybe as presenters, but also are constantly performing in their life.
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I think if you are somebody that famous and every time you step outside your door, you are in some way performing and you're, you're Conscious of that constant scrutiny that the gaze of the media on you, um, you know, they were brilliant.
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You know, Lily was nominated for an Olivier Award.
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Uh, you know, Cheryl had phenomenal reviews.
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Yeah, and, and, and Lily Allen, uh, is very much now doing some really hard hitting acting, you know, really kind of launched in that respect, and I didn't see Cheryl, but, um, people I know went to see it and were like, she absolutely smashed it.
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No, she was incredible.
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Yeah.
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And, you know, so that, that kind of bothers me that because I do think there's a snobbiness elitism to who can be an actor, but I, I do crucially think that, that, that what you mentioned about that, that kind of response about the idea of casting other people alongside them, it's such a big part of our strategy.
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We've always had that, that I've always been less than an actors alongside, uh, uh, Big name actors and it does give us this amazing platform to help to help people kind of, you know play a west end lead when perhaps they wouldn't normally get that chance, you know, and I think You know, it's huge and I, I just think like everything that we do as a production helps theatre.
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You know, if we're bringing huge amounts of people into watch theatre and we know tangibly from the kind of all the stats, you know, everything is so brilliantly meticulously recorded now, um, in terms of who is buying your tickets.
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We know there are loads of people coming to watch our, our show who do not normally come to the theatre, who may be, have never come to the theatre before.
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before.
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Certainly have never been to a play before.
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I've been to a musical, but you know, don't kind of traditionally come to plays.
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They're coming in, you know, it's, it's almost, you know, very dominantly under 35 audience and that kind of the lifeblood, what, what in, you know, the BBC, they call the replenishers, you know, the idea of replenishing the audience who are dying out, you know, um, and, um, And, you know, despite all these people coming in, if they come and see us, then maybe they'll go and see something else.
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They might go, I like theatre, it's good.
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You know, and I just think, you know, we have to, as, as an art form, as theatre, we have to appeal to younger people.
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You've got to reach out.
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You've got to, you've got to be more exciting than staying at home and watching Netflix.
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How do you do that? You know, you cast people that, that people are excited to go and see, you know, and so it makes so much sense to me, I think, really.
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And, um, I, I, Yeah, I don't know.
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Like, I think COVID presented massive challenges to theatre, you know, and clearly many theatres struggled.
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Some theatres, you know, um, faced existential crisis.
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But I think it also presented a lot of opportunities to reshape this theatre landscape, I think.
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And I think for a long time, there'd been a status quo of a lot of theatres were getting by on oldies, on the grey pound, basically coming and, and, and, you know, watching relatively safe.
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theater and, and, and keeping it ticking along.
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I think when those people didn't want to come out during and post COVID, but there was a huge amount of younger people who desperately want to go out and spend their money.
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That, that was a huge opportunity.
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And I think, you know, shows like ours, which, which, um, appeal to a younger audience, you know, I, I watched our show kind of flourish and, you know, go on for like, what's been three years now, whereas a lot of other shows that previously might've been bankers didn't because they just couldn't reach that That younger audience.
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I think it's a wake up call.
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And I think as theatre makers, we've got to be aware to bring that younger audience in.
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I think casting is a huge part of it.
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I think, you know, ticket pricing is another.
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I've made a real stand about the cost of tickets as well.
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I think we've got to price sensibly to draw in a younger crowd.
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Yeah.
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It's like, yeah, you're going to, you put Spider Man in Romeo and Juliet.
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That's great.
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That's a great move.
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But then if you make the ticket 300 quid, Yeah.
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you're not going to get the kids who watch Spider Man coming to see it.
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I feel really strongly about this.
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It's something I've spoken about a lot, really.
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And I feel if there's one thing threatening the future of theatre at the moment, it is the cost of tickets, really.
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And I totally appreciate it.
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Every time you talk to producers, they will tell you, it just costs a hell of a lot to put these plays on.
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And I absolutely, totally get that.
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But I know that on 2.
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22, we consciously reduced our ticket prices.
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We took our ticket prices down.
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To something much much lower than the average price, you know, I think certainly for a while we were you know Our top price ticket was 65 pounds, you know Right in the kind of the the heart of the cost of living crisis and you know, we took a hit We weren't making as much money as we could have done, you know, if we'd been charging more but we were Staying open.
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We were, we were full.
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We were, you know, bringing in swathes and swathes of younger people.
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And I see on social media so many people saying to me like, thanks for that.
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I was able to come and see your play because I could afford it.
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I couldn't, I couldn't go to something else because I couldn't, you know, and um, it's as simple as that really.
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And I have booked a few things for my family recently where basically it's 400 quid for a family of four.
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And that just seems massive to me.
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I think, you know, huge.
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It's ridiculous.
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Theatre should not be the cost of a holiday, it should be the cost of going out for dinner, you know, it should be the cost of an evening out, you know, cost of, you know, let's not go for that fancy dinner this evening, let's go to theatre instead, you know, it shouldn't be like having to make a decision about whether you can, you know, sort of heat your house or eat, you know, I mean, like, you know, if you're shelling hundreds and hundreds of quid to take your family to the theatre, then but for two such a, such a burden on the piece as well, you're sitting there going, is this really worth? 400 quid, you know, is it, you know, it's, it's, it's not, that's not what any actor wants.
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They don't wanna be walking out with people going like, God, oh, I dunno if this is worth the, the, you know, 200 quid I paid for a ticket, or, Yeah, yeah, it's, uh, it's really, it's really brutal.
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Yeah, I took my little girl to see Six a few weeks back and, and it was like 65 quid a ticket and I was like, that's fair, you know, the people on stage are working really hard.
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It's a really great show.
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It's only an hour long that, uh, that, yeah, that, that makes sense to me.
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But I think when the minute a ticket, I think hits.
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three figures.
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Whoever is on stage and whatever they're doing.
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And I think also like, you know, especially when like, um, when like Sarah Snook was doing that one handed picture of Dorian Gray and I looked at the ticket prices and I was like, but that's a cast of one.
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It's just so insane.
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It, it, I think it's, it's a very dangerous thing to turn an, any art form into a luxury item, you know, and, and to, and to make it feel excluding in that way.
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And I, I think theater has been excluding in so many ways.
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over the years really for a lot of people.
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I think a lot of people do not feel in any way literate or comfortable in how you navigate theatre.
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You know, like, you know, just sort of sitting in a space feeling awkward, you know, kind of just, just, you know, I don't know.
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I, I just think that the, and, and, and prices, you know, The biggest exploiter of all, because we, you know, we all know those shops or those hotels, whatever we've walked into, we know they are not for us, you know, that for somebody else because we can't afford them, you know, I actually, I can't even afford to buy a drink in this place.
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And, and, and you just don't want people feeling like that because they, they will go away.
295
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They'll, they'll, they'll vote with their feet, they'll go elsewhere and they won't come and watch your show anymore.
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And so, but you know, by the time you've clocked that and realize that, um, you need to drop your ticket price, it'll be too late.
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Yeah.
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Oh, God.
299
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Um, so, uh, this podcast prompt is a, uh, it's very much about stage management, obviously, because I'm an ex stage manager.
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Um, so.
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We always ask people, because we are always very curious, people love this question, um, who is, or, and it could be a team or an individual, uh, like the best stage manager that you've worked with, somebody who just really sticks in your head for something that they did, or a way that they were uh, so I, I, I worked with the, the same, uh, same people.
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lot of the, I mean, a stage manager can be quite a few different things, can't it? There's different types of stage managers.
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There's the stage manager who runs the desk and fires the cues on the night, there's the kind of stage managers who's in the rehearsal room, the kind of company stage manager kind of thing.
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I've worked with the same person, um, A lot on 222 on that, uh, a woman called Kate McDowell, who, um, works with Matthew Dunster a lot.
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I think Matthew Dunster has her on all his shows.
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She's, she's kind of a bit, a bit more senior now.
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She's a company, uh, stage manager, but, but she's such a great calm presence and somebody who you just realized that, that, that, you know, there are many different.
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people you need in place for a show to be great.
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And it's not just person writing the thing or directing the thing or whatever.
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There's got, there's got to be that, that person who's there to make everyone feel safe and comfortable and to give that kind of solidity to the whole thing.
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And that person is many points of vital cog in, in, in the wheels of getting a show on stage.
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So, you know, Kate's been great on that.
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And she's someone who Has kind of been, become a real part of the 222 family kind of coming back and doing various different incarnations of it and, um, yeah, so I'd probably say Heather, I think.
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We always like to know sort of who and why because, stage managers can be so many different things to, to so many different people.
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So we always kind of like to, to explore it.
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And the biggest question that we ask everybody, and I think I know the answer to this.
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It's also called prompt because of timekeeping.
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You may remember.
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that I'm quite a stickler for timekeeping.
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And so I want to know, Dani Robbins, if you are prompt.
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Traditionally, no.
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Um, I, I've, I've not, yeah, I've not really been, I mean, I was once defined by my lateness.
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I definitely was somebody who was always, Very, very, very late for things.
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I think that has changed.
325
00:35:15,289.8872121 --> 00:35:15,679.8872121
I've got older.
326
00:35:15,679.8872121 --> 00:35:20,339.8872121
I think having kids has probably made me a lot more prompt, I think, just because I'm up earlier.
327
00:35:21,79.8872121 --> 00:35:24,859.8872121
You know, they make me get up so early that I'm really late for a morning meeting now.
328
00:35:25,664.8872121 --> 00:35:33,774.8862121
Because my memory of you when we worked together at the park is that I'd turn up and you'd be like there in the foyer with a coffee.
329
00:35:34,144.8872121 --> 00:35:37,954.8872121
So I always kind of imagined But you were also pretty prompt.
330
00:35:37,954.9872121 --> 00:35:40,724.8872121
Ha ha ha I think it worked terms.
331
00:35:40,884.8872121 --> 00:35:41,614.8872121
Maybe I am.
332
00:35:41,624.8872121 --> 00:35:41,954.8872121
I don't know.
333
00:35:42,124.8872121 --> 00:35:43,114.8872121
I like efficiency.
334
00:35:43,294.8872121 --> 00:35:49,574.8872121
My wife is Swedish and the greatest quality that is most admired in Sweden is efficiency.
335
00:35:50,204.8872121 --> 00:36:04,39.8872121
And her complaint about Britain is often, it's so inefficient, you know, and, um, and I, uh, I, I think I do like efficiency and I like, um, I like to be surrounded by people who I feel like want to this as much as I do.
336
00:36:04,229.8872121 --> 00:36:05,89.8872121
I like hunger.
337
00:36:05,89.8872121 --> 00:36:05,829.8872121
I like ambition.
338
00:36:05,829.8872121 --> 00:36:11,539.8872121
I like, um, I like people to, to really, really kind of want to make this the best it could possibly be.
339
00:36:11,539.8872121 --> 00:36:20,879.8862121
And that sometimes that involves really, you know, putting ourselves to the test and like, you know, really kind of, uh, you know, it can be quite hard.
340
00:36:20,879.8872121 --> 00:36:21,529.8862121
It's quite a challenge.
341
00:36:21,529.8872121 --> 00:36:31,664.8872121
And so I've, I've always, you know, become frustrated by people who take the easy option and kind of found myself gravitating towards people who are prepared to take the hard option to get somewhere that feels better.
342
00:36:31,964.8862121 --> 00:36:34,424.8872121
And so I think, you know, sometimes being prompt is part of that.
343
00:36:34,434.8872121 --> 00:36:42,694.8872121
And I think, you know, putting the act there, the house, and then maybe, maybe I I'm, um, I'm, I'm not, you know, I am absolutely the person who comes in early.
344
00:36:42,694.8872121 --> 00:36:59,234.8872121
I'm, I think I'm definitely the person who stays late, you know? And, and I think, uh, that, that, um, that is something that I, um, I feel, yeah, I, I, I feel, over the years, I guess I, I, it's, it's about channeled focus working as well.
345
00:36:59,234.8872121 --> 00:37:05,94.8872121
I think, you know, a lot of times in my career, I was working every single hour of the day.
346
00:37:05,849.8872121 --> 00:37:07,169.8872121
But it was kind of futile.
347
00:37:07,169.8872121 --> 00:37:13,349.8872121
I was just trying to desperately kind of make things happen, grabbing at things, you know, sort of going, Oh, I'll try a bit of this, I'll try a bit of that, try a bit of that, try a bit of that.
348
00:37:13,509.8872121 --> 00:37:15,39.8872121
And actually you're just exhausting yourself.
349
00:37:15,289.8872121 --> 00:37:27,449.8872121
I think now I work hard, but it's in a very, very focused way, I think, you know, and, and, and knowing that, um, that that hard work, you know, kind of will, will help me reach certain targets.
350
00:37:27,499.8872121 --> 00:37:28,999.8872121
You know, it's not, it's not scattershot anymore.
351
00:37:29,564.8872121 --> 00:37:29,874.8872121
Mm.
352
00:37:30,234.8872121 --> 00:37:32,74.8872121
Yeah, no, I fully agree.
353
00:37:32,494.8872121 --> 00:37:38,344.8862121
Um, we, I, love talking about mistakes.
354
00:37:38,704.8862121 --> 00:37:47,59.8872121
I think, I think that in, I think that in theatre mistakes can be brilliant and beautiful.
355
00:37:47,449.8872121 --> 00:37:49,619.8872121
And I've said this before.
356
00:37:49,719.8872121 --> 00:37:53,904.8872121
I actually, I said it to Les Dennis, who's my very first guest that Oh, yeah.
357
00:37:54,269.8872121 --> 00:37:55,619.8872121
um, Lovely.
358
00:37:55,619.8872121 --> 00:38:03,489.8872121
Les, um, that sometimes theater is literally a group of people who've come together and are trying their very best for two hours.
359
00:38:03,789.8872121 --> 00:38:06,739.8872121
And, but with the best will in the world, sometimes things go wrong.
360
00:38:06,959.8872121 --> 00:38:07,979.8872121
People make mistakes.
361
00:38:08,124.8872121 --> 00:38:09,464.8872121
things, things happen.
362
00:38:09,774.8872121 --> 00:38:12,904.8872121
Um, and sometimes the world of theater, like really great things can come from it.
363
00:38:12,914.8872121 --> 00:38:14,854.8872121
And we can also learn from our mistakes.
364
00:38:15,254.8872121 --> 00:38:20,484.8872121
Um, so I always love to hear, uh, a mistake that you would like to own and celebrate.
365
00:38:20,534.8872121 --> 00:38:23,304.8872121
And that can be like something that you've done or something that's happened on stage.
366
00:38:23,304.8872121 --> 00:38:28,489.9622121
It can be a mishap or it can be, uh, like a defining decision that you made.
367
00:38:28,489.9622121 --> 00:38:31,334.8872121
Love a absolutely do learn from mistakes.
368
00:38:31,334.8872121 --> 00:38:35,344.8872121
I think also, interestingly, theater is not one that is just peppered with mistakes.
369
00:38:35,344.8872121 --> 00:38:38,244.8867121
Mistakes are kind of the daily business of theater.
370
00:38:38,244.8867121 --> 00:38:42,464.8862121
I'm always struck by that every time I get the show report, um, for, for people.
371
00:38:42,984.8862121 --> 00:38:43,154.8862121
Yeah.
372
00:38:43,154.8862121 --> 00:38:45,594.8872121
Well, I think people outside of theater.
373
00:38:46,479.8872121 --> 00:39:03,439.8862121
I don't think they're at all aware of this, but like every night, uh, you are sent a show report by the stage manager that, that outlines what's happened and, and I, and I, you know, again, a lot of people within theater might not think that the writer bothers reading that, but I, I would say every night in bed and read that it would arrive like sort of, you know, 10 30 or whatever.
374
00:39:03,439.8862121 --> 00:39:05,629.8872121
And I, I would sit there and, and, and read that.
375
00:39:05,629.8872121 --> 00:39:14,549.8872121
And it says like, you know, tonight, so and so said his line slightly wrong or the, you know, the door didn't quite open properly or, you know, kind of the candle fell over all these kinds of things.
376
00:39:15,9.8862121 --> 00:39:33,394.8862121
Um, Um, and, and you kind of go, Oh dear, oh dear, actually, but then you kind of realize, well, look, this is just, it happens, doesn't it? If you've got people on stage, you know, every so often things go wrong and, and it strikes me that it's such a different art form to, um, to, to, to TV and to film and to, and to audio as well.
377
00:39:33,404.8872121 --> 00:39:39,904.8872121
All of those things you have to settle for good enough at a certain point, you know, there's a certain point where you cannot do anything more to it.
378
00:39:40,144.8872121 --> 00:39:41,91.5205455
You've got to show it to people.
379
00:39:41,91.5205455 --> 00:39:43,434.8872121
It's got to go on TV or whatever, and you can't change it.
380
00:39:43,464.8872121 --> 00:39:45,964.8872121
So it's never perfect, but you accept that.
381
00:39:46,439.8872121 --> 00:39:47,499.8872121
probably as good as it'll get.
382
00:39:48,149.8872121 --> 00:39:50,739.8872121
Whereas in theater, you're constantly chasing perfection.
383
00:39:50,909.8872121 --> 00:39:53,259.8872121
Every single night is the chance to reach perfection.
384
00:39:53,279.8872121 --> 00:39:57,79.8872121
But the flip side of that is you've got to accept mistakes as well.
385
00:39:57,359.8872121 --> 00:40:07,759.8872121
And it's, it seems in a way kind of lunacy that you would have a night in theater where you invite all the critics on one night, your press night, you know, and say, come and watch our play.
386
00:40:08,9.8872121 --> 00:40:11,419.8872121
But knowing that that's That's the agenda, knowing that anything could go wrong.
387
00:40:11,459.8872121 --> 00:40:18,669.8862121
I mean, why would you do that? But knowing that, you know, the set could fall over or somebody could forget their lines or, or projectile vomit on stage, all these sort of things.
388
00:40:18,679.8872121 --> 00:40:23,229.8872121
So, so that, that, that's an interesting, mad aspect of theater.
389
00:40:23,229.8872121 --> 00:40:29,539.7872121
I think that that kind of, um, both acceptance and yet ignoring of the fact that mistakes are the currency of theater.
390
00:40:29,539.8872121 --> 00:40:41,659.8872121
Um, in terms of my own personal mistakes, I mean, the one that haunts me and you, you can tell me whether this is a mistake or not, but I, I was in National Youth Theatre in my early days.
391
00:40:41,969.8872121 --> 00:40:56,279.8872121
I was in this amazing production of Othello in National Youth Theatre, which had Chiwetel Ejiofor as the lead, uh, Rachel Sterling was in it, uh, Orlando Bloom was a non speaking soldier in it, um, it just had this Amazing cast, loads of people.
392
00:40:56,299.8872121 --> 00:40:58,709.8872121
Alex McQueen, who people will know from the thick of it.
393
00:40:58,709.8872121 --> 00:41:01,169.8872121
You know, like just lots and lots of great actors in it.
394
00:41:01,169.8872121 --> 00:41:05,179.8862121
And little old me playing First Senator, a really irrelevant role.
395
00:41:05,539.8872121 --> 00:41:09,659.8872121
You get like one speech in some sort of political discussion with the Duke or something like that.
396
00:41:09,659.8872121 --> 00:41:12,849.8872121
And I had this one speech, and I'm doing my speech.
397
00:41:13,289.8872121 --> 00:41:17,959.8872121
And then just suddenly, in the middle of my speech, I dry.
398
00:41:18,874.8872121 --> 00:41:34,534.8862121
I just cannot for the life of me remember what I'm saying and it's excruciating and I find my leg going into spasm and kicking out behind me almost as if I'm trying to kickstart a motorbike or something like that, trying to get myself going again.
399
00:41:34,624.8872121 --> 00:41:37,134.8862121
And I just totally frozen.
400
00:41:37,134.8872121 --> 00:41:43,334.8872121
I could see everybody else looking at me, all the other actors looking at me going, What the hell are you doing? You're screwing up the play.
401
00:41:43,544.8872121 --> 00:41:45,124.8872121
You're, you're so irrelevant.
402
00:41:45,134.8872121 --> 00:41:48,764.8872121
Just get through your little speech, you know, let Othello and Iago do their thing.
403
00:41:48,764.8872121 --> 00:41:58,484.8862121
What, why, why? And I can feel the audience behind me kind of going, Oh, you know, God, what, you know, what is happening? And it haunts me.
404
00:41:58,484.9862121 --> 00:42:00,194.8862121
You know, I talk about ghosts all the time.
405
00:42:00,354.8872121 --> 00:42:01,144.8872121
This is my ghost.
406
00:42:01,184.8872121 --> 00:42:01,844.8872121
This haunts me.
407
00:42:02,154.8872121 --> 00:42:05,684.8872121
And, um, I'm fascinated by the physical reaction.
408
00:42:05,694.8872121 --> 00:42:08,44.8872121
Your leg! it was, literally physical.
409
00:42:08,44.8872121 --> 00:42:09,794.8872121
It was like, you know, it was like, you know, panic.
410
00:42:09,864.8872121 --> 00:42:15,924.8872121
I was going into spasm and, and, and every time I step out on the stage now, it still haunts me.
411
00:42:16,24.8872121 --> 00:42:19,584.8872121
You know, I I've just done a tour with uncanny 76 shows.
412
00:42:19,584.8872121 --> 00:42:21,124.8872121
I did every single night.
413
00:42:21,424.8872121 --> 00:42:23,224.8862121
I thought about that at some point.
414
00:42:23,294.8872121 --> 00:42:28,84.8872121
And I find myself just drifting off into my own little head at a certain point going, don't forget your lines.
415
00:42:28,194.8872121 --> 00:42:28,814.8872121
Don't screw it up.
416
00:42:28,854.8872121 --> 00:42:29,524.8872121
Don't do that moment.
417
00:42:29,524.8872121 --> 00:42:33,899.8872121
And, um, And, and, and I don't know, is that a mistake? I don't know.
418
00:42:33,899.8872121 --> 00:42:38,49.8872121
I mean, it's sort of, I, I didn't, you know, it wasn't a conscious thing.
419
00:42:38,59.8872121 --> 00:42:40,559.8862121
It wasn't something I deliberately decided to do.
420
00:42:40,559.8872121 --> 00:42:42,419.8872121
It wasn't through any lack of skill or ability.
421
00:42:42,419.8872121 --> 00:42:48,509.8862121
I think it was just one of those things that happens, like a glitch in the matrix, but it, it, it, it, yeah, it will never leave me.
422
00:42:48,509.8872121 --> 00:42:48,979.7872121
I don't think.
423
00:42:49,424.8872121 --> 00:43:05,614.8872121
Yeah, we've, we've had, uh, we've had people talk about, um, drying before the, the playwright and performer Tabby Lamb came on and, and talked about drying in, in, in the middle of a performance where of course all the producers had come because, you know, to see if, to see if they were going to facilitate a transfer.
424
00:43:06,204.8862121 --> 00:43:18,724.8862121
And, uh, it just, it sounds like, I think the word haunting is really interesting because it just, it does sound like a really terrifying experience to just be on stage in front of all those people going, I've completely.
425
00:43:18,969.8872121 --> 00:43:21,189.8872121
lost the power of speech.
426
00:43:21,639.8872121 --> 00:43:24,79.8872121
it's horrible and a horrible powerless thinking.
427
00:43:24,79.8872121 --> 00:43:52,124.8872121
I mean, I can, I can think of other mistakes that I contributed much more consciously to what I can, I can remember very clearly this is pre pre career, but I can remember being a sixth former and going into school, wearing my mum's dungarees without a top on underneath with my little naked torso, skinny little pasty torso under these rather voluminous dungarees and having to get through a whole day of realizing I'd made a very, very big mistake there.
428
00:43:52,124.8872121 --> 00:43:57,24.8872121
Like, you know, there are definitely mistakes where I've, I've, I've got into it thinking like this will be great.
429
00:43:57,114.8862121 --> 00:44:03,354.8872121
And then it's not, you know, and, and, you know, comedy shows I've done, you know, stand up shows where I've thought, you know, this routine is brilliant.
430
00:44:03,404.8872121 --> 00:44:04,504.8872121
And then it's clearly terrible.
431
00:44:04,504.8872121 --> 00:44:13,714.8872121
I think, you know, you can absolutely have, um, you know, things which are driven by a misguided, um, idea that they're going to be great.
432
00:44:13,774.8872121 --> 00:44:14,969.8872121
But, but But that is how you learn.
433
00:44:14,974.8872121 --> 00:44:16,994.8872121
uh, yeah, that's how you learn.
434
00:44:17,4.8872121 --> 00:44:24,324.8872121
You experiment, you try things out, but I think that this was, this was a horrible thing because it felt like a, a massive mistake that I didn't see coming and didn't contribute towards.
435
00:44:24,384.8862121 --> 00:44:24,694.8872121
And I guess.
436
00:44:25,564.8872121 --> 00:44:27,484.7872121
You know, I don't know.
437
00:44:27,484.8872121 --> 00:44:33,244.8872121
I don't think I was struck by on my tour recently is that every theater has a ghost story.
438
00:44:33,804.8872121 --> 00:44:56,619.8872121
And, um, and all, almost all the ghost stories I was told were quite tragic stories of failure, you know, of people's mistakes of, of, you know, Uh, plays that went wrong and the writer threw himself to his death from the balcony or, you know, a kind of, uh, an actress who was in love with somebody else, you know, but she'd chosen the wrong guy and, you know, she'd made a stubborn mistake and her marriage was ruined.
439
00:44:56,619.8872121 --> 00:45:05,749.8872121
So she threw herself to the death, you know, whatever, you know, things like that, you know, or sort of, you know, accidents backstage, that kind of thing, you know, there was lots of failure, you know, lots of failure, lots of mistakes.
440
00:45:05,989.8872121 --> 00:45:08,89.8872121
And I sort of felt in a way, the ghosts.
441
00:45:08,649.8872121 --> 00:45:11,9.8872121
were very necessary because they took the pressure off us.
442
00:45:11,9.8872121 --> 00:45:16,569.8872121
You know, if these ghosts had failed and made mistakes in the past, and maybe that, that took the pressure off us.
443
00:45:16,569.8872121 --> 00:45:18,689.8872121
There was somebody who'd already done it in that space.
444
00:45:18,689.8872121 --> 00:45:30,559.8872121
It was now watching over us benignly in the wings, you know, as a phantom presence, you know, so I, yeah, I guess, you know, I find myself thinking a lot about the theater being a place full of mistakes and failure.
445
00:45:31,759.8872121 --> 00:45:35,639.8872121
But I, I think, yeah, I think that we should just celebrate it more.
446
00:45:35,639.8872121 --> 00:45:41,619.8862121
I get quite frustrated sometimes when people are like, oh, but you're not going to put that in the show report, are you? And I'm like, no, just put it in the show report.
447
00:45:41,629.8862121 --> 00:45:42,369.8862121
It's fine.
448
00:45:42,379.8862121 --> 00:45:42,829.8862121
It's just.
449
00:45:43,729.8872121 --> 00:46:00,799.8872121
You know, just, it's, I think otherwise, because if I was the, you know, the playwright or the director sat at home and every single show report was like, oh yeah, nothing happened today, nothing happened today, nothing happened today, I'd be like, whatever, like, of course some things, things are happening, you know, um, That's very true, actually.
450
00:46:01,129.8872121 --> 00:46:23,189.8872121
I think, and yeah, when we had Mark Ravenhill on, we talked about the show report a lot, and I was saying, I think, I always try to put something, when I'm writing my show reports, if the writer is alive, I always try and put something in that's kind of more for the writer, because I imagine that they're quite interested in how Being received.
451
00:46:23,579.8872121 --> 00:46:29,779.8872121
Um, and, uh, yeah, I, I, I think, I think the show report should be, it should be celebrating everyone's mistakes.
452
00:46:29,779.8872121 --> 00:46:33,139.8872121
I don't think it should be trying to try, trying to hide them.
453
00:46:33,559.8872121 --> 00:46:38,194.8872121
Um, You play, we learn from them, you know, so they are, they are part of that search for perfection.
454
00:46:39,379.8872121 --> 00:46:42,319.8872121
um, you know, it's the same thing is going to show port every single day.
455
00:46:42,319.8872121 --> 00:46:44,479.8872121
You go, oh, okay, well, you know, we need to address this.
456
00:46:44,479.8872121 --> 00:46:45,919.8872121
But it's, yeah, it's, it's good.
457
00:46:45,949.8872121 --> 00:46:49,699.8872121
It's good for stuff to go in and go, oh, okay, that happened, but it hasn't happened again.
458
00:46:50,169.8872121 --> 00:46:53,559.8872121
Um, so we're gonna finish up shortly with, uh.
459
00:46:54,114.8872121 --> 00:46:55,504.8872121
the question that we ask everybody.
460
00:46:56,374.8872121 --> 00:47:06,994.8872121
If you became artistic director of the National Theatre, what is something that you would put in place? And it can be, it can be anything.
461
00:47:07,4.8872121 --> 00:47:14,634.8872121
It can be a play that you would stage or somebody you would cast or something you would serve in the bar.
462
00:47:14,634.9872121 --> 00:47:21,734.8872121
Can be your first day in office, what would you do? interesting question.
463
00:47:21,774.8872121 --> 00:47:31,14.8872121
Um, I, um, I think fun for me is the most important word, full stop in theatre right now.
464
00:47:31,14.8872121 --> 00:47:38,424.8872121
I think that we've got to make theatre feel fun and it's got to feel more fun than staying in, I think, really.
465
00:47:38,424.8872121 --> 00:47:52,964.8862121
So I would, Absolutely look at the kind of people I was casting and the plays I was choosing to do in terms of reaching out to that younger audience that we talked about, I guess, and making it feel really fun and really exciting.
466
00:47:52,984.8872121 --> 00:47:53,514.8862121
I don't know.
467
00:47:53,544.8872121 --> 00:47:54,84.8862121
I just feel like.
468
00:47:55,304.8872121 --> 00:48:06,954.8862121
I've seen quite a few things recently that were quite good and just That's a terrible review of something.
469
00:48:07,484.8872121 --> 00:48:17,554.8872121
isn't it, but, but, but, but, you know, none of them, you know, I just took my kids to some of them and they thought it was okay, but, but none of them blew their minds.
470
00:48:17,604.8872121 --> 00:48:19,74.8872121
And I just remember being a kid.
471
00:48:20,254.8872121 --> 00:48:20,864.8872121
Loving theater.
472
00:48:20,874.8872121 --> 00:48:21,964.8872121
I was such a precocious kid.
473
00:48:21,964.8872121 --> 00:48:24,4.8872121
I went to see the RSC when I was about six or seven.
474
00:48:24,464.8872121 --> 00:48:29,524.8872121
Uh, and I remember being hooked by seeing Rain on stage, but just these exciting performances.
475
00:48:29,674.8862121 --> 00:48:31,994.8862121
And I, I, I remember how I felt.
476
00:48:32,404.8872121 --> 00:48:40,594.8872121
And I guess my agenda going into something like National Theater would be to make other people feel how I felt as that kid, really, you know, to kind of bring that magic back.
477
00:48:40,624.8872121 --> 00:48:44,794.8872121
I do think theater is a, a place where magic is possible.
478
00:48:44,924.8872121 --> 00:48:49,724.8872121
And, uh, you know, again, going back to that idea of, the paranormal.
479
00:48:49,724.8872121 --> 00:48:59,244.8862121
I think a lot of the paranormal is that desire for a sense of magic, you know, that for many of us, we live in a, a sort of godless, magicless universe.
480
00:48:59,244.8872121 --> 00:49:14,524.8872121
You know, if you are brought up as an atheist, uh, you, you, you know, you, you don't have that sense of wow, or, and, and, and magic, uh, you know, you might take that from just observing the beauty of the natural world, I guess, but that, that idea that, that.
481
00:49:15,129.8872121 --> 00:49:16,509.8872121
invisible magic can happen.
482
00:49:16,509.8872121 --> 00:49:18,469.8872121
I think, you know, it's, it's why we're hooked on Harry Potter.
483
00:49:18,829.8872121 --> 00:49:19,139.8872121
Yes.
484
00:49:19,169.8872121 --> 00:49:19,489.8872121
Yeah.
485
00:49:19,879.8872121 --> 00:49:20,869.8872121
That's why we're like Harry Potter.
486
00:49:20,869.8872121 --> 00:49:21,479.8872121
It's why we like Star Wars.
487
00:49:21,639.8872121 --> 00:49:26,199.8872121
Why would I always say that idea, that idea of magic? And I think theater is a place to create magic.
488
00:49:26,199.8872121 --> 00:49:30,919.8862121
It's a room where we all sit together and, and it's like, it's has a semi religious quality to it.
489
00:49:30,919.8872121 --> 00:49:31,699.8867121
It's like a ritual.
490
00:49:31,699.8867121 --> 00:49:31,789.8862121
Yeah.
491
00:49:32,79.8872121 --> 00:49:49,924.8862121
Uh, I'm often struck by sitting, watching my play that there's a kind of ritual going on between actors and, um, an audience and me, the playwright conjuring up this thing kind of, you know, there's a, there's then we all, the clap, I'm always sometimes I'm like, who decided that like, once the play finished, all the people sat in the audience would like, bang their hands together.
492
00:49:50,94.8872121 --> 00:49:53,854.8872121
Like, there's that kind of ritualistic thing to it.
493
00:49:53,854.9872121 --> 00:49:56,254.8872121
Who, who decided that was the thing? We all do it.
494
00:49:56,409.9872121 --> 00:49:57,449.8872121
Um, it.
495
00:49:57,519.8872121 --> 00:50:00,239.8872121
But I just, I just, you know, I would really want to create that magic.
496
00:50:00,239.8872121 --> 00:50:15,79.8872121
And just, if you could, if you could make kids and younger people come and see something in your theater and walk away, mind fully blown, evangelizing, going off and telling people like, you've got to go and see this, you know, you have to get inside that national theater.
497
00:50:15,379.8872121 --> 00:50:18,559.8872121
The only way I can talk to you about this thing is for you to go and see it too.
498
00:50:18,559.8872121 --> 00:50:19,609.8872121
You've got to go and do that.
499
00:50:20,39.8872121 --> 00:50:30,979.8872121
And, you know, I'm vain enough to think that we do that with 222, you know, I think, I think I see people on social media kind of evangelizing about this play going off and telling their friends, you've got to go and see it.
500
00:50:31,359.8872121 --> 00:50:40,229.8872121
Come and see it, you know, and I think we've been able to do that in a commercial space, you know, and it's this combination of all sorts of things, the staging, the casting, the writing, all these kind of things.
501
00:50:40,519.8872121 --> 00:50:46,579.7872121
I would love to see that done somewhere like the National Theatre, you know, kind of sort of publicly funded.
502
00:50:46,979.8872121 --> 00:51:06,899.8862121
place, uh, where, you know, just, you know, can we make people feel that excited by theater? You know, can you, can you get to a stage where it is the most talked about thing around, you know, and I, I, that, that would be my aim, my, my kind of manifesto coming in about, about let's, let's just do things that, that just.
503
00:51:07,879.8872121 --> 00:51:17,789.8872121
Yeah, that you can't not come and see basically, you know, and I it's very easy to say that and there's so many different considerations and it's such a hugely broad audience to serve.
504
00:51:17,979.8872121 --> 00:51:26,169.8872121
But I think just if there was one or two things every season that just, you know, kind of made you kind of feel giddy and excited and the pit of your stomach just to sit in that room.
505
00:51:26,669.8872121 --> 00:51:31,579.8872121
Um, you know, I'm not saying those things don't don't exist, but I just think that, you know, that that would be my brief.
506
00:51:31,579.8872121 --> 00:51:33,339.8872121
That would be my agenda coming in.
507
00:51:33,479.8872121 --> 00:51:35,159.8862121
That's that's what day one.
508
00:51:35,159.8872121 --> 00:51:37,619.8872121
I would sit in the room with people and say, you know, let's find those things.
509
00:51:38,709.8872121 --> 00:51:41,819.8872121
That is a great answer to that question.
510
00:51:41,829.8872121 --> 00:51:45,419.8872121
I think it's definitely one of my favourite answers to that question.
511
00:51:45,469.8872121 --> 00:51:47,999.8872121
I love, people interpret it in so many different ways.
512
00:51:49,49.8872121 --> 00:51:50,679.8872121
That was a great interpretation.
513
00:51:51,579.8872121 --> 00:51:57,379.7872121
And Absolutely.
514
00:51:58,639.8872121 --> 00:52:10,809.8862121
Well, Dani Robbins, it's been such a joy to, uh, to reconnect with you and, uh, to hear about your travels around America and your incredible success being the new ghost hunter.
515
00:52:10,809.9862121 --> 00:52:13,639.8872121
Uh, so yes, thank you very much for coming on.
516
00:52:14,69.8872121 --> 00:52:14,609.8872121
Thank you.
517
00:52:14,609.8872121 --> 00:52:15,179.8872121
It was a pleasure.
518
00:52:15,639.8872121 --> 00:52:16,49.8872121
Good.
519
00:52:20,556.8390507 --> 00:52:23,136.8390507
That was the brilliant Danny Robbins.
520
00:52:23,286.8390507 --> 00:52:25,476.8390507
Um, what an amazing guy.
521
00:52:25,596.8390507 --> 00:52:26,586.8390507
So interesting.
522
00:52:26,616.8390507 --> 00:52:28,326.8390507
And just so delighted.
523
00:52:28,746.8390507 --> 00:52:33,126.8390507
Um, that he has, uh, achieved all of that success.
524
00:52:33,156.8390507 --> 00:52:33,816.8390507
It's incredible.
525
00:52:34,206.8390507 --> 00:52:39,186.8390507
Um, If you enjoyed that episode, if you've enjoyed the series, I would love to hear from you.
526
00:52:39,186.8390507 --> 00:52:42,336.8390507
You can email me, prompt the podcast@gmail.com
527
00:52:42,336.8390507 --> 00:52:46,866.8390507
or you can follow me on Instagram prompt, underscore podcast, or Jess, Lucy, brunch.
528
00:52:46,926.8390507 --> 00:52:55,26.8390507
Um, I would love to hear your thoughts about this episode, season one in general, what you think we should be doing for season two, and hopefully we'll be back.
