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Hey, I am Shabir Sulthan, and I'm a music artist and a film composer. First up, we have Alex Oh, a film composer, producer, and pianist with two decades of experience. Alex is known for his versatility and has scored 24 feature films across various genres. Notable works include 1965, Taxi! Taxi!, and festival award winners like Faeryville. Alex's commitment to storytelling through music has earned him accolades such as the "Top Local Soundtrack" award at the COMPASS Awards. Next, we have the multi-faceted composer, producer, and the current CEO of Shabir Music Asia, Buvan. Buvan specializes in film and TV scores, with an impressive track record in the music industry, particularly in Kollywood film projects and Mediacorp TV series. Buvan has received multiple accolades and awards as a producer, with the recent one being the Pradhana Vizha Awards where he bagged the best soundtrack award for the Tamil language Festival anthem that he co-produced and composed for last year. In this episode, we will talk about the impact of film music and the untapped potential it has in discovering the Singapore sound. Alex, welcome to the show. Thank you. Buvan, welcome to the show. Thank you, thank you. All right. So we're going to talk about a topic which I think is not discussed regularly in Singapore, at least, because it's primarily about film score and how it relates to the Singapore sound. Because we don't have a very large film scene, so we don't talk about the film score much. But I think now today, all three of us are film score producers / composers, and we have an understanding about the process. And we are going to dive into the topic of the Singapore Sound X Film score. How does it work? Can we... Are there lessons for us in the philosophy of producing a film score that we can apply when it comes to producing a Singapore sound? And of course, we have established that it can be Singapore sounds, many sounds, because when I create something, it's going to be different. If you're giving me the same tools, the orchestra, the software, everything, the outcome is going to be radically different from what Alex would produce. And if Buvan produces on his own also, I think all of us are going to come with three different outcomes, and we're going to arrive at three different points. And I think that makes it supremely interesting, because the artists and the vision and intention of the artists would change everything. How the soundtrack unfolds. Of course, the film comes into play. And I chose this particular topic because I do believe that the fact that when we write for films, there's a lot of fiction involved. It's fictitious most of the stories that we write for, not all, but quite a lot of it. And it comes to a point where we can imagine things. We can bring the surreal in front of the screen, or we can get it to play on speakers. And that really got me to start thinking, what if we apply those... Precepts and that philosophy and that approach to create songs for Singapore or Songs from Singapore, where it's instantly identifiable, or it gives you clues that, "Hmm, this sounds like it's something from that region." And then I thought, "Okay, we should talk about that." Because probably that could bring more awareness to this particular subject. And there are a few things that could happen out of it. Number one is we as film score composers, after this conversation, maybe we might start thinking more about incorporating more of our culture into the score that we're producing. I'm sure we're already doing it, but sometimes we need gentle reminders right? Of who we are in this very noisy business of music and film. The second thing is there could be a 14-year-old who's watching this, and they feel that, "I want to be a film score producer, and we are planting ideas into their psyche if they become a film score producer to also think about Singapore, no matter how far they go, no matter where the job takes them." Like me. I went to India, and I'm thinking about Singapore. I love India, but I'm from Singapore, so I'm thinking, "What of Singapore can I bring into my score when I'm producing?" A film in India. Film score is primarily about storytelling. Our job here is not to take the attention for ourselves. While this can change, while in India. Like how the Mongols are exceptions to a lot of things, the Indian film industry is going to be exceptions to a lot of things when it comes to films. But general rule is you're supposed to support the film. It's all about the film. It's all about the story. If we stick to that, then the most important thing is how can we bring a narrative forward through our score, through our music? Alex, what are the techniques you apply in order to tell a story better? When someone comes to you, they say that the story is about this. What do you think about as one of the first few things where you're just trying to think about that, you're just trying to wonder,"Where do I start to ensure that I can tell this story well through my music?" I would actually hold back any idea that I would... Sometimes when people tell you stories, you would instantly have things going on. I'm sure all of us are kind of the same. Let's say when a director comes to me and then he says, "I want you to score my film and this is what the film is about." I would actually let him talk, or he or she, talk more about their film. Then from there, I would actually start asking a lot more questions. I try my best to pause the music button in the head because the moment I start having sounds, it will kind of sway. Does it mean that it becomes more about what you want to do than what the film requires?- Correct, exactly So I purposefully just pause it, whatever that's going (on) in my head, shut it out first, and then let the other person, or actually the one with the vision, to tell me what is it all about. I would actually ask, "Is there..." I would ask more about their process. When you were writing the script or when you have this idea, were you referencing another film or what is it all about? From there, I would start to map an idea. If they do have a particular film in mind or they actually referenced a film in mind, then I would ask them more. We would slowly talk about their story, their process, and then we move on to music. From there, I would ask them, "Is there anything that you want it to sound like, or do you have a reference for it?" Because most of the time, they have an idea. At least the people that I work with. There was only one exception that they told me, "You can do whatever you want." Actually I got more scared because it was like, "With that much of freedom, what do you do?" Yes, with that much of freedom, what do I do? They're counting (on me). I would say that 99%, if not 100%, they would already know what they want. If you were to give them something else, it depends on who we are working with, they may or may not be open about something that's different from what they are hearing in their head. I think it starts from there. If they do have, then I'll take a look. I would actually present one cue first, normally, which is supposed to be the main theme. I would give them what they want and then perhaps give them something that I thought this film may be. From there on, it starts to shape the whole music process. That's where I come from. Buvan is that very much different from our process? I really think it really depends on a couple of factors that determine how the process goes for me and for us, in my opinion. Sometimes we will get the story beforehand and we don't get the reels or we don't get the episodes or the film. Now we have time to ideate. The best part is when you don't see something, the canvas is blank. You don't know how it's going to look. You don't know how the character is going to be, what he's going to do. You just know the subject and the character's.. probably his traits and stuff like that. Then you can create a score or piece of music which is based off what you are interpreting when someone is telling you (the story). This process would then change if I now have the visual with me because now I'm looking at things, I know how it's going to look. As odd as it sounds, maybe even the way they have coloured this particular film. These things change the sonic palette in my opinion. It's for me when I approach film score in a sense. It really depends. I have worked on both spectrums. We have worked on scores where we got the idea, we know what's going to happen in the film but we haven't seen any sort of visuals and we start writing. We have a main theme in mind. We start building on it, we like it and then we start building sub-themes and stuff. But also I might get a visual and I know this is going to be epic. This is meant to be Royal. If the visual is asking for this then it would be a bit weird for me to give a very contrasting score. Not that it's wrong, it's just that maybe at that point I've heard that it's not going to work because I'm seeing what I'm seeing right now. The process really differs but I think it's fair to say that I've dealt with both extremes in a sense. I guess when we outline the stages it's going to come down to similar things. There's going to be pre-production for us for music and there's going to be production and there's going to be post-production. It's a bit different from how songs are written because we are doing both songs and score and I know Alex has also wrote songs before. Songs...it's more of pursuing an impulsive instinct that is born out of the spark of the moment. But for score it's a lot more well thought out and we have to plan it. Of course the main theme could also come in a Sunday morning before we're going to have breakfast. Boom, oh man, that could be it. It could start like that too. It will start like that a lot of times I think. It expands into a very elaborate process after that because you might have orchestras and a lot more musicians and there's constant discussion with directors and writers and things like that. When it comes down to the process itself for film score it's always the pre-production production and post-production and the pre-production. We are writing the score. There's this moment of danger because we don't know where it's going to go. We already got the brief. We know what the film is about and then we're trying to find things. Then we find things and then we try to make them tangible, these ideas so we start recording them, writing them, etc. Then we've got all these sketch works that we have done. For me, when I'm pre-producing the whole thing, I like to think about a few things. I like to think about the concept of the film itself. What's the concept? I want to think about that, keep thinking about that. The next thing that I want to think about is the emotional aspects. What are the emotions? Because at the end of the day we're humans and this is an emotional experience watching a film. It's supposed to make people feel something. That's also one of the primary purposes of art. I want to think about it from an emotional perspective. What is the film trying to communicate? What are the emotions trying to communicate? The next thing that I think about is something which is a lot more intangible, which is philosophical and spiritual aspects of the film. Is it present? Because I don't want to think about these things. What if the filmmaker has gone even deeper and they've got these things present too? I don't want to miss that out on my score, so I start thinking about that too. The philosophical and spiritual aspects of the film, which I may want to incorporate in my score. That's the third thing that I think about. I put philosophical and spiritual together because I don't want to separate them. These two things can set us on a wild goose chase. We need to keep it at a particular spectrum so that it doesn't consume us. I talk about that in that sense. Of course, then there is aesthetics, the craft. How do we want to do it? What are the tools we want to use? What are the instruments we want to use to convey the emotional, artistic, spiritual, philosophical aspects of the score? That's when we decide, is it going to be a full-fledged orchestra? Is it going to be Native instruments, etc., etc.? Or is it going to be a synth-based score and all that? That's craft, right? This approach, I feel, is very unique to film score because I don't think in other genres like when I take pop, I take jazz, I don't think it works like that. I think it's a lot more reciprocal. But for us, there's a lot of thinking for us to do. There's a lot of reflection. Then we have a lot of writing to do. Of course, if we're hiring an orchestra, then there's another whole process all together. But I'm coming to the point where, can this process be used to discover the Singapore sound? It's complex because now there's "1965", there is "This land is mine", where there is a Singapore sound there already, I believe. These are films that you have composed and very beautiful scores. There are things that I've done and my team has done. But it's always for something. It's for a project. Even if you write for NDP (NATIONAL DAY PARADE), you're writing for NDP and that particular year has a theme and you've got to follow those things.. there's a framework. I'm talking about applying this process to something that does not have a particular framework or a theme. It's not for a particular year, but it's for the country itself. It's like when you write a love song for a girl, right? You don't write for the version that she was in 2022 and you give a particular theme, "All right, these are your things. I'm going to write for you." It doesn't work like that. You're just writing for this person who is constantly moving through time, ever changing, but you still decide to write because you're inspired and your connection is there and your intention is dedication. Your intention is love. What happens when we take this approach and do something like that? I think we are still in the process of, of course, refining the Singapore sound. Like you said, we are multicultural and then multiracial. We are "Rojak", basically. In our music, it should make sense that we have different instruments. They are in it. If we were to think logically, this would be the approach for a Singapore sound. Find something that kind of symbolizes everyone and then put those instruments in and we try to make it work. I think so far we have been trying to do that. I would say that it would take some time to actually sharpen or refine that sound. I mean, we are only like 58 years old as a country. So that's not that long for a country and something like culture. The Singapore sound, I think it stems much from (our) culture and our art. We are only 58 years old. We still have some time to grow and finally it will take shape. So I think it will come to that. But as of now, we can only do our best to kind of mix and match different instruments together to see how it goes. I think this is what is happening at the moment. We are all just trying our best to make it sound like Singapore. Honestly, when we ask ourselves, what is the Singapore sound? I don't know. That's a great starting point because that's the question we are trying to ask and none of us know the answer to that. That's the purpose of art. It's supposed to be explorative. We can journey through because we don't know the answer to these questions. But there are some indications of what it may be. Because what we are talking about essentially here is first and foremost sonic identity and then musical identity and then there is artistic identity. These things are there. But you can't create these things without understanding what is the national identity. And the national identity is also shaped by the emotional, intellectual, spiritual aspects of the people who live in the country. It's interesting to think about this in terms of imagine this whole , the Black Panther film where Ludwig Göransson came up with Wakanda theme. It was an imagination of what it could be but it was so real. It doesn't exist but when you listen to it, it's so real because no matter what, the inspiration was still countries in Africa. The African continent was still the inspiration behind it and the tradition, the culture, the psyche, everything was represented in that score. What if we take, I'm doing a thought experiment, what if we take that kind of approach and we do it for Singapore? Because you see, different people experience Singapore differently when we say Singapore. Like someone is going to say "Food". Another person is going to say the"Transport", transportation. Another person is going to say the recent "GST" hike.(GST - Goods & Services Tax) Everybody is going to think about different things when we say Singapore and one person will just say "Lee Kuan Yew", etc. And..."Financial Hub""Skyscrapers""MBS" MBS - Marina Bay Sands"Sentosa", all of it is Singapore still. And I guess those tangible things maybe trap us that this is what it's supposed to be. Is there a way for us to add surrealism into this whole picture? Because I could also argue that Singapore is the "David" in a world of "Goliath". And what about a soundtrack for David? You know what I'm saying? Because we are so small, we are a little red dot and that name came when someone threw an insult at us just like "Daft Punk" and they say they're just a bunch of daft punks and they say, "Damn, that's great, let's take that name. Let's be "Daft Punk" from now on." So we're like, "Yeah, that's great, we'll take it." So there is this tenacity and audacity that the nation has. Can that be represented in a soundtrack? I think, I mean, it's funny you mentioned about Ludwig Göransson and the whole Black Panther universe, right? Because if I'm not mistaken, his whole process was that. So he's from Sweden and he's based in, I guess, the States. When he got the opportunity to work on this film, I think he wanted to do this film, but he was very upfront with the director, if I'm not mistaken, that he said, "Look, you want me to do this film? I want to, but I need to go to Africa. I need to be there in Africa and I need to learn about their history, their music and how they work." And I think rightfully he met the singer Baaba Maal, if I'm not mistaken , and in that process he toured with him and he got to understand, because he was touring with these musicians, right? The Senegalese musicians, he kind of understood how the different instruments work. And I think primarily for Black Panther, you would have heard this, the talking drum sound. It was very interesting because... The "tu tu tuk", right? And apparently it's something, it's an instrument you put right below here and the pitch changes based on how hard you squeeze it and you hit it. So that's why it's... And he used it initially apparently to talk among tribes. So can you imagine, he... And you know what the "tu tu tuk" is?"T'challa!""T'challa!" Right, right. That was what he was trying to emulate. There are syllables in it. Exactly. Right. And it's cool, right? Someone who wanted to work on a film, now he knew that the only way he could do justice to it is to go to the country and do research, meet musicians, understand what's happening. And then the next thing is contextually Wakanda, sorry I'm a bit of a Marvel buff, sorry. Yeah, A lot of us are, all good. So contextually Wakanda wasn't colonised. So now how do you create a score which doesn't have the European influences in it and make sure that it works in the context of the fact that it was based off the African continent? So I guess that thought process itself is like, wow. It's crazy. I love that. I love that. And that's what I'm talking about, about the spiritual aspect of a country. Because when you're colonised it's going to be different, psychological and spiritual aspects. But when you're not, it's going to be different. You go to Vietnam, people are very different because they know they have kicked out two Western powers out of their country. And you know, it's kind of prevalent in the way, in the pride that they have, you know. And it depends on which part of the world you are. These things change and they're very subtle but you can notice, you know, if you are looking out for these things. And in Singapore, we're still in the thought experiment of producing a soundtrack for Singapore or soundtracks for Singapore. And let's say the three of us collaborate, just for an example, okay? And let's say... That'd be cool. Yeah, that'd be cool. Yeah, yeah. So if let's say we have been colonised. We've been colonised, yeah. Our mentality is, post-colonialist mentality.. it is a bit sporadic. Like it appears and then it's not there sometimes, so it really depends, you know. Also because I think we were treated well as a colony to a certain degree. So we would see it a bit differently compared to other parts of the world. We can't deny that it's not there. And now that we're living in this particular era where Asia is arising power and there's more confidence in, you know, the Asian person, that's also changing. That's informing us and all of us want to dig a little deeper into our own heritage, roots and culture. And how would that change if we produce the Singapore sound? Hmm, okay. I might use your tips though in the future, please. Be Warned. Ah. Okay, I approach scoring, writing for films or anything for the matter in a very sonic perspective. Like we all have things that we lean towards too, right? Like someone who's a pianist might start with a melody, a chord. Someone who's a drummer might have a beat first. I'm someone who's driven by sound. Like, I get inspired by sound. I remember once I was in Thailand and I was in 7-11 and the fridge was literally making a chord and that chord literally inspired me to write one of the songs that we worked on actually. So I'm heavily driven by sound. So whenever I look at Singapore or whenever I am thinking about the soundscapes of Singapore, right, I would approach it from a very sound perspective. So I imagine myself to be a human sampler or sampler. So what I do is just now, you know, you're saying the Chinese Dagu or another Kompang, right? So immediately when I think of something like that, the Dagu is like something that fits your low frequencies and then your Kompang is something that fits the mid frequencies. So now I would think that if I'm a sampler who is sampling this this, how will I make these things work? How will I amalgamate these sounds together? Like if there's a kick and there's a snare, they have different frequency responses, right? So for me, like Dagu is a low frequency and then we have Kompang is a *mid frequency. Maybe we have the Thavil which has a bit more of a high frequency. So how can you amalgamate these things together? To create one sound. To create one sound and that's your drum sampler, you know? So only in Singapore you can get these sounds quickly. Yeah, just a call away. Yeah, you know? So I would approach scoring in that aspect. I would use that as my chassis, as my foundation. And then I would start building, things that I've always like, I mean, I've thought of it. but I've never done it. But for me, it's like, what if I used a, erhu and actually write like a four part five part string arrangement by using the erhu. That means. instead of strings, it's erhu playing it, you know? I've never tried it. I'm not sure if it will work, but these are possible experiments that I've always want to try. And I think these are things that would give birth to a very interesting sound. For instance, we worked on a, I remember I think last year there was a POC that we worked on and in that POC, it was an accident. That (POC) means "Proof of concept" for those who don't know. Yes, "Proof of concept". And I was working on this particular scene, which was happening. It was a fight scene that was happening at a, at a traffic light. Okay. And the scene literally showed the green light turning on. And for me it was like, uh, whenever we all cross, you know, the green color, when the green man's up, I was like, wait, I want to try and see if I can bring that into, um, this score. So what I did is since it's a very rhythmic element, I just brought the.. sampled the traffic light (sound) and I used that as a, that was like a orchestral drums going on, but that was at the back of it. It's one thing, right? Now the next thing, which was the happy accident was that I was like, okay, now I'm in, uh, the scene was in the CBD (Central Business District). I said, okay, I want to try something new. I wasn't like thinking too much about it. I took a Guzheng and then I placed it on the track and then I was programming a midi (Musical Instrument Digital Interface) on top of it. Right ?. The next thing I did is, okay, I know that it's a Guzheng, but I don't want anyone to know that it's a Guzheng. Now, what am I going to do? Yeah. Right. I know that's changing the behavior of the instrument. Exactly. What I did is I was thew like some effects and everything I thew in like a tremolo or a phaser and I swear, man, it changed everything. Like it became like this like insane arp (arpeggiator) sound with synths and pads and it changed the entire sound and I was like a lot more motivated to score. Now even a director that doesn't know that I did that thing, I like that I did that, but that was a good foundation for me to establish a sound. And if I am a lot more conscious about this in the future, I think like experiments and processes like this could potentially give birth to the Singapore Sound. Yeah. And as a producer, because you're in Singapore, you're thinking in this way. If you, if I threw you in LA (Los Angeles) or you know, Korea, that's not the first thing you're going to think about. You're going to think about other things, right? But this is in your consciousness because you're from Singapore. Exactly. And I think we should take a moment to listen to that soundtrack that you produced right now so that you know our audience understand what is the potential as well. Let's say, for example, if we were to take a erhu and let them play differently, like what you say, changing the behavior of the instrument. So, I mean, I totally agree with that. And I think it should be like that. You know what, if we take the Guzheng and play differently, play a different melody, play a different scale, rather than Chinese, you know, how does that sound like? And then I think that is pretty much, I would say, symbolizes us as well. I mean, like for me, like I say, I'm Chinese, but I don't have a Chinese name. And then when I go to China, I was living there for four years, from 2007 to 2011. And then I can tell, when I first went there, I had a culture shock,. I feel that I can't connect with them, you know, even though I am Chinese, I'm in the land of Chinese, but I can't, you know. So, there is a barrier and I realized, oh, okay, so it's because of my culture. And what exactly is my culture? My culture is mixed,. I'm not, like what you say,. I wouldn't call, hey, here's my Indian friend, here's my Chinese friend, here's my Malay friend. We don't do that, you see. He's my friend, you know. Because to me, it's like, I'm not Chinese, I'm not Malay, and I'm not Indian, I'm Singaporean, you see. So, the race thing is just, I would say, part of our culture. But I don't think we identify ourselves like that. I mean, we all, even with our dietary..., I mean, we eat different foods, right?- You are definitely a little bit Indian, a little bit Malay, a little bit Chinese, because you know, we all like that. We all have that mix in us.- Correct, correct. So, I think, back to music, if we were to do, like, if I was to score this, right. So, I would get them to play (the instruments) differently. Meaning, I would kind of think, okay, let's have the Guzheng play, like how a Malay instrument will (be) played. I mean, just throw(ing) out thoughts. And if I have a year to actually, think and plan about it, that would be my first approach. Like, to change the behavior of the instruments, kind of see how, like, what you say, you know, put everything together and see how it sounds. I would probably experiment with actually scales, and melody. And let's see what happens if you fuse different scales together. I know, I like to try. If I have the time to kind of play and experiment with that, maybe something would happen.- For sure.- Or maybe it (would be) an epic failure.- We gotta try?- Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Oh, we have to try. You know, so, I think that's the thing. But I would say that it will actually end up, I mean, if I do it, and then I would imagine it to be somewhat, I don't know, like a fusion of scales and fusion of instruments, and I would purposefully not make it sound like what the instrument is supposed to play, like what you are saying.- I love that.- Yeah, and then, but of course we do need the..., anything needs rhythm, harmony, and melody. So all these three things must be there. So, and I don't know, I have to try. And then, everything has to kind of...- I love the fact that you took the approach to this imaginary assignment from the individual. I mean, you saw the Singaporean, and then you decided to apply that to the instrument. And the Singaporean is always a mix. He or she is a "Rojak". There's gonna be a little bit of the Chinese in him, the Indian in him, the Malay in him, and the other in him, the Eurasian in him. And this is us, this is who we are. And embracing that and allowing the instruments to also carry that characteristic, I think that's a very cool approach. And imagine marrying the sonic style and this approach of changing the behavior of the instruments, what results could we get? And if we're given six months with all these musicians, we come back, spend a lot of time with them day in, day out in a studio with this experiment sample.- Yeah, man.- I think we'll crack something crazy. I think we will create some sort of, you know, very exciting sonic, I don't wanna use the word, but let me just use it for once, okay? Sonic revolution.(all laughing) And I would do these similar things. And I would even push the envelope, like when the Oud player or the Sitar player walks in, I'll tell him, bro, today you're playing the Zhongruan. You're not gonna play the Sitar or the Oud.- Yeah, actually, why not?- Then, yeah, you're like, whoa, whoa, really? So you apply that technique of playing Sitar on the Zhongruan or the oud and vice versa. And I will get the, probably the person who plays the Indian mandolin, in their techniques with the little slurs, I'll get them to play, you know, something like the oud itself, or I could get them to play the classical guitar, or I could give them a guitar with a distortion pedal and say, okay, now you play with all the, you know, Carnatic or Indian classical slurs on the electric guitar, because that's what we are. The Singaporeans, we're mixed, you know, we've got a bit of everything in this, and sometimes something is more, yeah.- "Rojak !", yeah.- But of course it requires a very tactile, sensitive approach, if not this whole thing, can become cacophonist. And we don't wanna make cacophony, we wanna create music at the end of the day. And that's where the artist comes in, who is doing it is very important, right? Because the intention matters right at the end of the day. If the moment we walk in with the intention of, okay, I'm gonna create something, you know, with all the instruments, then we fail the moment we walk in with that intention. But if the intention is to tell a story, which is the intention behind every film that we've worked on so far, is to tell a story, I think we're in a safe space if we start with that intention, yeah?- All right, gentlemen, thank you very much for joining us today on this episode. I think it was a very, very fruitful discussion. It got very technical. I really hope that, you know, people were able to follow us. And, but I'm very sure that musicians and enthusiasts and soundtrack enthusiasts would have been completely thrilled with this conversation, and they've probably learned something. And if you have got something to share with us, please do, you know, drop it in the comment section, and we would like to hear from you as well. What are the approaches you think could work?- There are plenty. I don't think we covered everything. There's so many, it's like these permutations are like colors. You know, the more you mix, the more you get. So we only spoke like a handful today, but there's a lot more I'm sure. So you could tell us about even your experiences of experimenting with different kinds of cultural music. And, you know, maybe your experience as a listener in what you've heard and what you've listened to, and all those things I think will be valuable for us. If anyone who is watching this show, or maybe one of us who are speaking here, want to embark on such an ambitious project, you know, all these insights would be certainly helpful. So once again, Buvan and Alex, thank you very much for being part of Project Zero, a journey to discover the Singapore Sound.- Thank you, Shabir. - Thank you.
Hey, I am Shabir Sulthan, and I'm a music artist and a film composer. First up, we have Alex Oh, a film composer, producer, and pianist with two decades of experience. Alex is known for his versatility and has scored 24 feature films across various genres. Notable works include 1965, Taxi! Taxi!, and festival award winners like Faeryville. Alex's commitment to storytelling through music has earned him accolades such as the "Top Local Soundtrack" award at the COMPASS Awards. Next, we have the multi-faceted composer, producer, and the current CEO of Shabir Music Asia, Buvan. Buvan specializes in film and TV scores, with an impressive track record in the music industry, particularly in Kollywood film projects and Mediacorp TV series. Buvan has received multiple accolades and awards as a producer, with the recent one being the Pradhana Vizha Awards where he bagged the best soundtrack award for the Tamil language Festival anthem that he co-produced and composed for last year. In this episode, we will talk about the impact of film music and the untapped potential it has in discovering the Singapore sound. Alex, welcome to the show. Thank you. Buvan, welcome to the show. Thank you, thank you. All right. So we're going to talk about a topic which I think is not discussed regularly in Singapore, at least, because it's primarily about film score and how it relates to the Singapore sound. Because we don't have a very large film scene, so we don't talk about the film score much. But I think now today, all three of us are film score producers / composers, and we have an understanding about the process. And we are going to dive into the topic of the Singapore Sound X Film score. How does it work? Can we... Are there lessons for us in the philosophy of producing a film score that we can apply when it comes to producing a Singapore sound? And of course, we have established that it can be Singapore sounds, many sounds, because when I create something, it's going to be different. If you're giving me the same tools, the orchestra, the software, everything, the outcome is going to be radically different from what Alex would produce. And if Buvan produces on his own also, I think all of us are going to come with three different outcomes, and we're going to arrive at three different points. And I think that makes it supremely interesting, because the artists and the vision and intention of the artists would change everything. How the soundtrack unfolds. Of course, the film comes into play. And I chose this particular topic because I do believe that the fact that when we write for films, there's a lot of fiction involved. It's fictitious most of the stories that we write for, not all, but quite a lot of it. And it comes to a point where we can imagine things. We can bring the surreal in front of the screen, or we can get it to play on speakers. And that really got me to start thinking, what if we apply those... Precepts and that philosophy and that approach to create songs for Singapore or Songs from Singapore, where it's instantly identifiable, or it gives you clues that, "Hmm, this sounds like it's something from that region." And then I thought, "Okay, we should talk about that." Because probably that could bring more awareness to this particular subject. And there are a few things that could happen out of it. Number one is we as film score composers, after this conversation, maybe we might start thinking more about incorporating more of our culture into the score that we're producing. I'm sure we're already doing it, but sometimes we need gentle reminders right? Of who we are in this very noisy business of music and film. The second thing is there could be a 14-year-old who's watching this, and they feel that, "I want to be a film score producer, and we are planting ideas into their psyche if they become a film score producer to also think about Singapore, no matter how far they go, no matter where the job takes them." Like me. I went to India, and I'm thinking about Singapore. I love India, but I'm from Singapore, so I'm thinking, "What of Singapore can I bring into my score when I'm producing?" A film in India. Film score is primarily about storytelling. Our job here is not to take the attention for ourselves. While this can change, while in India. Like how the Mongols are exceptions to a lot of things, the Indian film industry is going to be exceptions to a lot of things when it comes to films. But general rule is you're supposed to support the film. It's all about the film. It's all about the story. If we stick to that, then the most important thing is how can we bring a narrative forward through our score, through our music? Alex, what are the techniques you apply in order to tell a story better? When someone comes to you, they say that the story is about this. What do you think about as one of the first few things where you're just trying to think about that, you're just trying to wonder,"Where do I start to ensure that I can tell this story well through my music?" I would actually hold back any idea that I would... Sometimes when people tell you stories, you would instantly have things going on. I'm sure all of us are kind of the same. Let's say when a director comes to me and then he says, "I want you to score my film and this is what the film is about." I would actually let him talk, or he or she, talk more about their film. Then from there, I would actually start asking a lot more questions. I try my best to pause the music button in the head because the moment I start having sounds, it will kind of sway. Does it mean that it becomes more about what you want to do than what the film requires?- Correct, exactly So I purposefully just pause it, whatever that's going (on) in my head, shut it out first, and then let the other person, or actually the one with the vision, to tell me what is it all about. I would actually ask, "Is there..." I would ask more about their process. When you were writing the script or when you have this idea, were you referencing another film or what is it all about? From there, I would start to map an idea. If they do have a particular film in mind or they actually referenced a film in mind, then I would ask them more. We would slowly talk about their story, their process, and then we move on to music. From there, I would ask them, "Is there anything that you want it to sound like, or do you have a reference for it?" Because most of the time, they have an idea. At least the people that I work with. There was only one exception that they told me, "You can do whatever you want." Actually I got more scared because it was like, "With that much of freedom, what do you do?" Yes, with that much of freedom, what do I do? They're counting (on me). I would say that 99%, if not 100%, they would already know what they want. If you were to give them something else, it depends on who we are working with, they may or may not be open about something that's different from what they are hearing in their head. I think it starts from there. If they do have, then I'll take a look. I would actually present one cue first, normally, which is supposed to be the main theme. I would give them what they want and then perhaps give them something that I thought this film may be. From there on, it starts to shape the whole music process. That's where I come from. Buvan is that very much different from our process? I really think it really depends on a couple of factors that determine how the process goes for me and for us, in my opinion. Sometimes we will get the story beforehand and we don't get the reels or we don't get the episodes or the film. Now we have time to ideate. The best part is when you don't see something, the canvas is blank. You don't know how it's going to look. You don't know how the character is going to be, what he's going to do. You just know the subject and the character's.. probably his traits and stuff like that. Then you can create a score or piece of music which is based off what you are interpreting when someone is telling you (the story). This process would then change if I now have the visual with me because now I'm looking at things, I know how it's going to look. As odd as it sounds, maybe even the way they have coloured this particular film. These things change the sonic palette in my opinion. It's for me when I approach film score in a sense. It really depends. I have worked on both spectrums. We have worked on scores where we got the idea, we know what's going to happen in the film but we haven't seen any sort of visuals and we start writing. We have a main theme in mind. We start building on it, we like it and then we start building sub-themes and stuff. But also I might get a visual and I know this is going to be epic. This is meant to be Royal. If the visual is asking for this then it would be a bit weird for me to give a very contrasting score. Not that it's wrong, it's just that maybe at that point I've heard that it's not going to work because I'm seeing what I'm seeing right now. The process really differs but I think it's fair to say that I've dealt with both extremes in a sense. I guess when we outline the stages it's going to come down to similar things. There's going to be pre-production for us for music and there's going to be production and there's going to be post-production. It's a bit different from how songs are written because we are doing both songs and score and I know Alex has also wrote songs before. Songs...it's more of pursuing an impulsive instinct that is born out of the spark of the moment. But for score it's a lot more well thought out and we have to plan it. Of course the main theme could also come in a Sunday morning before we're going to have breakfast. Boom, oh man, that could be it. It could start like that too. It will start like that a lot of times I think. It expands into a very elaborate process after that because you might have orchestras and a lot more musicians and there's constant discussion with directors and writers and things like that. When it comes down to the process itself for film score it's always the pre-production production and post-production and the pre-production. We are writing the score. There's this moment of danger because we don't know where it's going to go. We already got the brief. We know what the film is about and then we're trying to find things. Then we find things and then we try to make them tangible, these ideas so we start recording them, writing them, etc. Then we've got all these sketch works that we have done. For me, when I'm pre-producing the whole thing, I like to think about a few things. I like to think about the concept of the film itself. What's the concept? I want to think about that, keep thinking about that. The next thing that I want to think about is the emotional aspects. What are the emotions? Because at the end of the day we're humans and this is an emotional experience watching a film. It's supposed to make people feel something. That's also one of the primary purposes of art. I want to think about it from an emotional perspective. What is the film trying to communicate? What are the emotions trying to communicate? The next thing that I think about is something which is a lot more intangible, which is philosophical and spiritual aspects of the film. Is it present? Because I don't want to think about these things. What if the filmmaker has gone even deeper and they've got these things present too? I don't want to miss that out on my score, so I start thinking about that too. The philosophical and spiritual aspects of the film, which I may want to incorporate in my score. That's the third thing that I think about. I put philosophical and spiritual together because I don't want to separate them. These two things can set us on a wild goose chase. We need to keep it at a particular spectrum so that it doesn't consume us. I talk about that in that sense. Of course, then there is aesthetics, the craft. How do we want to do it? What are the tools we want to use? What are the instruments we want to use to convey the emotional, artistic, spiritual, philosophical aspects of the score? That's when we decide, is it going to be a full-fledged orchestra? Is it going to be Native instruments, etc., etc.? Or is it going to be a synth-based score and all that? That's craft, right? This approach, I feel, is very unique to film score because I don't think in other genres like when I take pop, I take jazz, I don't think it works like that. I think it's a lot more reciprocal. But for us, there's a lot of thinking for us to do. There's a lot of reflection. Then we have a lot of writing to do. Of course, if we're hiring an orchestra, then there's another whole process all together. But I'm coming to the point where, can this process be used to discover the Singapore sound? It's complex because now there's "1965", there is "This land is mine", where there is a Singapore sound there already, I believe. These are films that you have composed and very beautiful scores. There are things that I've done and my team has done. But it's always for something. It's for a project. Even if you write for NDP (NATIONAL DAY PARADE), you're writing for NDP and that particular year has a theme and you've got to follow those things.. there's a framework. I'm talking about applying this process to something that does not have a particular framework or a theme. It's not for a particular year, but it's for the country itself. It's like when you write a love song for a girl, right? You don't write for the version that she was in 2022 and you give a particular theme, "All right, these are your things. I'm going to write for you." It doesn't work like that. You're just writing for this person who is constantly moving through time, ever changing, but you still decide to write because you're inspired and your connection is there and your intention is dedication. Your intention is love. What happens when we take this approach and do something like that? I think we are still in the process of, of course, refining the Singapore sound. Like you said, we are multicultural and then multiracial. We are "Rojak", basically. In our music, it should make sense that we have different instruments. They are in it. If we were to think logically, this would be the approach for a Singapore sound. Find something that kind of symbolizes everyone and then put those instruments in and we try to make it work. I think so far we have been trying to do that. I would say that it would take some time to actually sharpen or refine that sound. I mean, we are only like 58 years old as a country. So that's not that long for a country and something like culture. The Singapore sound, I think it stems much from (our) culture and our art. We are only 58 years old. We still have some time to grow and finally it will take shape. So I think it will come to that. But as of now, we can only do our best to kind of mix and match different instruments together to see how it goes. I think this is what is happening at the moment. We are all just trying our best to make it sound like Singapore. Honestly, when we ask ourselves, what is the Singapore sound? I don't know. That's a great starting point because that's the question we are trying to ask and none of us know the answer to that. That's the purpose of art. It's supposed to be explorative. We can journey through because we don't know the answer to these questions. But there are some indications of what it may be. Because what we are talking about essentially here is first and foremost sonic identity and then musical identity and then there is artistic identity. These things are there. But you can't create these things without understanding what is the national identity. And the national identity is also shaped by the emotional, intellectual, spiritual aspects of the people who live in the country. It's interesting to think about this in terms of imagine this whole , the Black Panther film where Ludwig Göransson came up with Wakanda theme. It was an imagination of what it could be but it was so real. It doesn't exist but when you listen to it, it's so real because no matter what, the inspiration was still countries in Africa. The African continent was still the inspiration behind it and the tradition, the culture, the psyche, everything was represented in that score. What if we take, I'm doing a thought experiment, what if we take that kind of approach and we do it for Singapore? Because you see, different people experience Singapore differently when we say Singapore. Like someone is going to say "Food". Another person is going to say the"Transport", transportation. Another person is going to say the recent "GST" hike.(GST - Goods & Services Tax) Everybody is going to think about different things when we say Singapore and one person will just say "Lee Kuan Yew", etc. And..."Financial Hub""Skyscrapers""MBS" MBS - Marina Bay Sands"Sentosa", all of it is Singapore still. And I guess those tangible things maybe trap us that this is what it's supposed to be. Is there a way for us to add surrealism into this whole picture? Because I could also argue that Singapore is the "David" in a world of "Goliath". And what about a soundtrack for David? You know what I'm saying? Because we are so small, we are a little red dot and that name came when someone threw an insult at us just like "Daft Punk" and they say they're just a bunch of daft punks and they say, "Damn, that's great, let's take that name. Let's be "Daft Punk" from now on." So we're like, "Yeah, that's great, we'll take it." So there is this tenacity and audacity that the nation has. Can that be represented in a soundtrack? I think, I mean, it's funny you mentioned about Ludwig Göransson and the whole Black Panther universe, right? Because if I'm not mistaken, his whole process was that. So he's from Sweden and he's based in, I guess, the States. When he got the opportunity to work on this film, I think he wanted to do this film, but he was very upfront with the director, if I'm not mistaken, that he said, "Look, you want me to do this film? I want to, but I need to go to Africa. I need to be there in Africa and I need to learn about their history, their music and how they work." And I think rightfully he met the singer Baaba Maal, if I'm not mistaken , and in that process he toured with him and he got to understand, because he was touring with these musicians, right? The Senegalese musicians, he kind of understood how the different instruments work. And I think primarily for Black Panther, you would have heard this, the talking drum sound. It was very interesting because... The "tu tu tuk", right? And apparently it's something, it's an instrument you put right below here and the pitch changes based on how hard you squeeze it and you hit it. So that's why it's... And he used it initially apparently to talk among tribes. So can you imagine, he... And you know what the "tu tu tuk" is?"T'challa!""T'challa!" Right, right. That was what he was trying to emulate. There are syllables in it. Exactly. Right. And it's cool, right? Someone who wanted to work on a film, now he knew that the only way he could do justice to it is to go to the country and do research, meet musicians, understand what's happening. And then the next thing is contextually Wakanda, sorry I'm a bit of a Marvel buff, sorry. Yeah, A lot of us are, all good. So contextually Wakanda wasn't colonised. So now how do you create a score which doesn't have the European influences in it and make sure that it works in the context of the fact that it was based off the African continent? So I guess that thought process itself is like, wow. It's crazy. I love that. I love that. And that's what I'm talking about, about the spiritual aspect of a country. Because when you're colonised it's going to be different, psychological and spiritual aspects. But when you're not, it's going to be different. You go to Vietnam, people are very different because they know they have kicked out two Western powers out of their country. And you know, it's kind of prevalent in the way, in the pride that they have, you know. And it depends on which part of the world you are. These things change and they're very subtle but you can notice, you know, if you are looking out for these things. And in Singapore, we're still in the thought experiment of producing a soundtrack for Singapore or soundtracks for Singapore. And let's say the three of us collaborate, just for an example, okay? And let's say... That'd be cool. Yeah, that'd be cool. Yeah, yeah. So if let's say we have been colonised. We've been colonised, yeah. Our mentality is, post-colonialist mentality.. it is a bit sporadic. Like it appears and then it's not there sometimes, so it really depends, you know. Also because I think we were treated well as a colony to a certain degree. So we would see it a bit differently compared to other parts of the world. We can't deny that it's not there. And now that we're living in this particular era where Asia is arising power and there's more confidence in, you know, the Asian person, that's also changing. That's informing us and all of us want to dig a little deeper into our own heritage, roots and culture. And how would that change if we produce the Singapore sound? Hmm, okay. I might use your tips though in the future, please. Be Warned. Ah. Okay, I approach scoring, writing for films or anything for the matter in a very sonic perspective. Like we all have things that we lean towards too, right? Like someone who's a pianist might start with a melody, a chord. Someone who's a drummer might have a beat first. I'm someone who's driven by sound. Like, I get inspired by sound. I remember once I was in Thailand and I was in 7-11 and the fridge was literally making a chord and that chord literally inspired me to write one of the songs that we worked on actually. So I'm heavily driven by sound. So whenever I look at Singapore or whenever I am thinking about the soundscapes of Singapore, right, I would approach it from a very sound perspective. So I imagine myself to be a human sampler or sampler. So what I do is just now, you know, you're saying the Chinese Dagu or another Kompang, right? So immediately when I think of something like that, the Dagu is like something that fits your low frequencies and then your Kompang is something that fits the mid frequencies. So now I would think that if I'm a sampler who is sampling this this, how will I make these things work? How will I amalgamate these sounds together? Like if there's a kick and there's a snare, they have different frequency responses, right? So for me, like Dagu is a low frequency and then we have Kompang is a *mid frequency. Maybe we have the Thavil which has a bit more of a high frequency. So how can you amalgamate these things together? To create one sound. To create one sound and that's your drum sampler, you know? So only in Singapore you can get these sounds quickly. Yeah, just a call away. Yeah, you know? So I would approach scoring in that aspect. I would use that as my chassis, as my foundation. And then I would start building, things that I've always like, I mean, I've thought of it. but I've never done it. But for me, it's like, what if I used a, erhu and actually write like a four part five part string arrangement by using the erhu. That means. instead of strings, it's erhu playing it, you know? I've never tried it. I'm not sure if it will work, but these are possible experiments that I've always want to try. And I think these are things that would give birth to a very interesting sound. For instance, we worked on a, I remember I think last year there was a POC that we worked on and in that POC, it was an accident. That (POC) means "Proof of concept" for those who don't know. Yes, "Proof of concept". And I was working on this particular scene, which was happening. It was a fight scene that was happening at a, at a traffic light. Okay. And the scene literally showed the green light turning on. And for me it was like, uh, whenever we all cross, you know, the green color, when the green man's up, I was like, wait, I want to try and see if I can bring that into, um, this score. So what I did is since it's a very rhythmic element, I just brought the.. sampled the traffic light (sound) and I used that as a, that was like a orchestral drums going on, but that was at the back of it. It's one thing, right? Now the next thing, which was the happy accident was that I was like, okay, now I'm in, uh, the scene was in the CBD (Central Business District). I said, okay, I want to try something new. I wasn't like thinking too much about it. I took a Guzheng and then I placed it on the track and then I was programming a midi (Musical Instrument Digital Interface) on top of it. Right ?. The next thing I did is, okay, I know that it's a Guzheng, but I don't want anyone to know that it's a Guzheng. Now, what am I going to do? Yeah. Right. I know that's changing the behavior of the instrument. Exactly. What I did is I was thew like some effects and everything I thew in like a tremolo or a phaser and I swear, man, it changed everything. Like it became like this like insane arp (arpeggiator) sound with synths and pads and it changed the entire sound and I was like a lot more motivated to score. Now even a director that doesn't know that I did that thing, I like that I did that, but that was a good foundation for me to establish a sound. And if I am a lot more conscious about this in the future, I think like experiments and processes like this could potentially give birth to the Singapore Sound. Yeah. And as a producer, because you're in Singapore, you're thinking in this way. If you, if I threw you in LA (Los Angeles) or you know, Korea, that's not the first thing you're going to think about. You're going to think about other things, right? But this is in your consciousness because you're from Singapore. Exactly. And I think we should take a moment to listen to that soundtrack that you produced right now so that you know our audience understand what is the potential as well. Let's say, for example, if we were to take a erhu and let them play differently, like what you say, changing the behavior of the instrument. So, I mean, I totally agree with that. And I think it should be like that. You know what, if we take the Guzheng and play differently, play a different melody, play a different scale, rather than Chinese, you know, how does that sound like? And then I think that is pretty much, I would say, symbolizes us as well. I mean, like for me, like I say, I'm Chinese, but I don't have a Chinese name. And then when I go to China, I was living there for four years, from 2007 to 2011. And then I can tell, when I first went there, I had a culture shock,. I feel that I can't connect with them, you know, even though I am Chinese, I'm in the land of Chinese, but I can't, you know. So, there is a barrier and I realized, oh, okay, so it's because of my culture. And what exactly is my culture? My culture is mixed,. I'm not, like what you say,. I wouldn't call, hey, here's my Indian friend, here's my Chinese friend, here's my Malay friend. We don't do that, you see. He's my friend, you know. Because to me, it's like, I'm not Chinese, I'm not Malay, and I'm not Indian, I'm Singaporean, you see. So, the race thing is just, I would say, part of our culture. But I don't think we identify ourselves like that. I mean, we all, even with our dietary..., I mean, we eat different foods, right?- You are definitely a little bit Indian, a little bit Malay, a little bit Chinese, because you know, we all like that. We all have that mix in us.- Correct, correct. So, I think, back to music, if we were to do, like, if I was to score this, right. So, I would get them to play (the instruments) differently. Meaning, I would kind of think, okay, let's have the Guzheng play, like how a Malay instrument will (be) played. I mean, just throw(ing) out thoughts. And if I have a year to actually, think and plan about it, that would be my first approach. Like, to change the behavior of the instruments, kind of see how, like, what you say, you know, put everything together and see how it sounds. I would probably experiment with actually scales, and melody. And let's see what happens if you fuse different scales together. I know, I like to try. If I have the time to kind of play and experiment with that, maybe something would happen.- For sure.- Or maybe it (would be) an epic failure.- We gotta try?- Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Oh, we have to try. You know, so, I think that's the thing. But I would say that it will actually end up, I mean, if I do it, and then I would imagine it to be somewhat, I don't know, like a fusion of scales and fusion of instruments, and I would purposefully not make it sound like what the instrument is supposed to play, like what you are saying.- I love that.- Yeah, and then, but of course we do need the..., anything needs rhythm, harmony, and melody. So all these three things must be there. So, and I don't know, I have to try. And then, everything has to kind of...- I love the fact that you took the approach to this imaginary assignment from the individual. I mean, you saw the Singaporean, and then you decided to apply that to the instrument. And the Singaporean is always a mix. He or she is a "Rojak". There's gonna be a little bit of the Chinese in him, the Indian in him, the Malay in him, and the other in him, the Eurasian in him. And this is us, this is who we are. And embracing that and allowing the instruments to also carry that characteristic, I think that's a very cool approach. And imagine marrying the sonic style and this approach of changing the behavior of the instruments, what results could we get? And if we're given six months with all these musicians, we come back, spend a lot of time with them day in, day out in a studio with this experiment sample.- Yeah, man.- I think we'll crack something crazy. I think we will create some sort of, you know, very exciting sonic, I don't wanna use the word, but let me just use it for once, okay? Sonic revolution.(all laughing) And I would do these similar things. And I would even push the envelope, like when the Oud player or the Sitar player walks in, I'll tell him, bro, today you're playing the Zhongruan. You're not gonna play the Sitar or the Oud.- Yeah, actually, why not?- Then, yeah, you're like, whoa, whoa, really? So you apply that technique of playing Sitar on the Zhongruan or the oud and vice versa. And I will get the, probably the person who plays the Indian mandolin, in their techniques with the little slurs, I'll get them to play, you know, something like the oud itself, or I could get them to play the classical guitar, or I could give them a guitar with a distortion pedal and say, okay, now you play with all the, you know, Carnatic or Indian classical slurs on the electric guitar, because that's what we are. The Singaporeans, we're mixed, you know, we've got a bit of everything in this, and sometimes something is more, yeah.- "Rojak !", yeah.- But of course it requires a very tactile, sensitive approach, if not this whole thing, can become cacophonist. And we don't wanna make cacophony, we wanna create music at the end of the day. And that's where the artist comes in, who is doing it is very important, right? Because the intention matters right at the end of the day. If the moment we walk in with the intention of, okay, I'm gonna create something, you know, with all the instruments, then we fail the moment we walk in with that intention. But if the intention is to tell a story, which is the intention behind every film that we've worked on so far, is to tell a story, I think we're in a safe space if we start with that intention, yeah?- All right, gentlemen, thank you very much for joining us today on this episode. I think it was a very, very fruitful discussion. It got very technical. I really hope that, you know, people were able to follow us. And, but I'm very sure that musicians and enthusiasts and soundtrack enthusiasts would have been completely thrilled with this conversation, and they've probably learned something. And if you have got something to share with us, please do, you know, drop it in the comment section, and we would like to hear from you as well. What are the approaches you think could work?- There are plenty. I don't think we covered everything. There's so many, it's like these permutations are like colors. You know, the more you mix, the more you get. So we only spoke like a handful today, but there's a lot more I'm sure. So you could tell us about even your experiences of experimenting with different kinds of cultural music. And, you know, maybe your experience as a listener in what you've heard and what you've listened to, and all those things I think will be valuable for us. If anyone who is watching this show, or maybe one of us who are speaking here, want to embark on such an ambitious project, you know, all these insights would be certainly helpful. So once again, Buvan and Alex, thank you very much for being part of Project Zero, a journey to discover the Singapore Sound.- Thank you, Shabir. - Thank you.
