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This file was generated by Descript
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Susan: I think I watched like four
episodes and then my wife was like,
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no, we're not watching this anymore.
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Jeremy: My wife did that with the Wire.
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I just continued to watch it myself.
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Actually.
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Have, have you guys watched The Wire?
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Susan: that was another one
that we went a little ways
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into, and then I got the, Nope.
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Jeremy: Yeah, I I had
been watching The Wire.
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I was like two seasons in and I finally
convinced my wife to watch an episode with
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me, or I wasn't even like that far in.
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I was on the first season, still finally
convinced my wife to watch an episode.
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Her one like thing that'll rule out any,
any movie or book for her or TV show is
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like if there are kids in danger, And
the one episode she watched is the one
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where they, they kill baby Michael B.
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Jordan.
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And I was like, no, it doesn't,
it's not like that in every episode.
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Ivy: Oh no.
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Jeremy: only time anything
like this happened.
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Ben: Where Wallace at
string, where Wallace at?
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Jeremy: Terrible.
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All right.
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You guys ready to jump into this?
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Talking about the Devil's Backbone?
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Ben: I truly don't know,
but let's do it anyway.
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Jeremy: All right.
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Good evening and welcome
to Progressively Horrified.
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The podcast will be hold of horror to
Progressive standards it never agreed to.
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Tonight we're talking about
Guillermo Toro's second big
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independent feature film.
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This one actually in Spanish,
not just a little bit in Spanish.
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Like Cronos.
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This is The Devil's Backbone.
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I am your host Jeremy Whitley.
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And with me tonight I have a
panel of chil Encino Bites.
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First, they're here to challenge the
sexy werewolf, sexy, vampire binary.
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My co-host Ben Khan.
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Ben, how are you tonight?
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Ben: Finally representation.
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We can really relate to immature,
wannabe, comic creators.
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Jeremy: Yes, very
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Ben: Fucking that, that, that died.
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When Jaime was like, I'm
gonna make comic books.
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I'm like, Jaime, you go for it.
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Jeremy: Just as, just as likely
to work out as it was for the
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rest of us at this point, I think.
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And our co-host Emily,
is on vacation this week.
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She is at Emerald City Comic-Con.
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I would tell you to go see her, but by
the time this post, it'll be well over, so
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don't go there looking for her right now.
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But we have
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Ben: do, it'll be funny.
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Tell us about it.
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Jeremy: We just wander into the convention
center, demand to see comic books.
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That'd be great.
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And we have two great guests
filling in tonight though.
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First of all, a returning guest and
graphic novel writer, the writer of Nick.
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It's Susan Beneville.
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Susan, great to have you back.
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Susan: Great to be here.
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Thank you very much.
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You know?
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Of course.
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Hi.
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May as one, once again, an artist
who thinks he doesn't need a writer.
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Jeremy: Yes.
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Very important, very important
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Ben: oh, that moment kicked me right saw.
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Susan: Yep, me too.
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Jeremy: all been there and our other
guest, the writer of Anne, of West Philly.
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And the relevant to this and
award-winning archival quality Ivy.
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No, we are Avi, it's great to see you.
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Ivy: Yeah.
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Thank you for having me.
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I'm very excited to talk about my
chosen father, Guillermo del Toro.
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Ben: Yes, and you can really tell
it's Guillermo del Toro because
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there is endless sympathy for the
ghost in the supernatural elements.
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It's never the ghost that are a problem
in a Del Toro movie, it's always people
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except for Pacific Rim, where it was
legitimately just the giant monster.
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Jeremy: I mean,
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Ben: one ended up
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Jeremy: were also not problems
in there, so you know,
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Ben: No, that's true.
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Susan: Yeah.
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Ivy: few ghost problems in that movie.
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Almost none.
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Ben: I
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Jeremy: to be.
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Ben: his, his creative ghost
haunted the shit out of the sequel.
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Ivy: Oh
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Jeremy: Oof.
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Yeah, this one this is a beautiful movie.
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I don't know, Amazon had the brand new,
I guess, super HD restoration of it,
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which uh, watching it on my TV is like,
why do new movies not look this good?
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Ivy: yeah,
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Ben: Gorgeous film.
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Like to quote Harry
Styles, it's like a movie,
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Ivy: it does feel like a movie,
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Susan: Yeah, it had those movie Qualit.
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Ben: and I say that a little because
I love to make fun of the, don't worry
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darling drama, but also, I mean, coming
off of Cronos last week, which really
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had an indie low budget horror film
coming into this, it really is a sense
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of like, oh, we have a leveled up.
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This is not fucking d i y horror.
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This is real cinema now.
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We're dealing with the Spanish Civil War.
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We've got gorgeous
cinematography and shots.
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And with the exception of a
couple explosion effects, I mean
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really just like fantastic, just
very atmospheric, just a movie.
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Movie.
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I'm bad at words today.
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It's been a week.
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Jeremy: Yeah, it had a real, like stephen
Spielberg and Stephen King worked on a
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movie together, but they were Spanish.
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Like, that's what it feels like.
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It's got the, like Stephen King, little
boys fucking around and, you know, getting
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into deep supernatural shenanigans.
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And then the Spielberg like epic
pans across desert and following,
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you know, follow the car into the
place and just these really great
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shots that you're like, damn.
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Like, I wouldn't have thought
to make that, to get that shot.
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And he did.
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It's real good.
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Ben: No, you're totally right.
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why aren't modern movies
looking this good?
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Like-
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Ivy: like it's also the first one
where you can see the comic book
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influence in Del Toro's work.
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Like the shots of the bomb and everything.
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I know that he's said that.
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He was really inspired by a Mexican
cartoonist, and the name is escaping
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me, but actually hired them to work
on the storyboards for the film.
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So some of those shots actually are done.
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You know, were, were storyboarded by
a comic book artist and I feel like
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it carries so through the rest of his
films, that very comic panel esque
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framing you know, things seeming
larger than life to these kids.
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Like, I just think it's so gorgeous.
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Susan: I mean, I think even from the
opening shot where they see, where you
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see the Bombay doors open on the bomber
and you, you're just following the
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Ben: Great opening shot.
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Susan: Oh my God, just a bit.
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Awesome.
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Ben: I don't know if you, if it's more
directing or cinematography, but everyone
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involved in just the filming of this
movie fucking brought their a game.
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Like this is a superbly well made film.
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Like to point, wait, I really, I didn't
have very many notes on this film
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just cuz it was just so well crafted.
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Like there was no fat, there was
nothing that wasn't emotionally
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important or contributed to
the themes or the atmosphere.
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Jeremy: Yeah, for sure.
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And I think even like down to the casting,
this, this movie is pretty immaculate
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because, anytime you get a group of
little boys in a story like this, some
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of them tend to like, fade into each
other and you're like, which kid is this?
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I don't know.
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But like, these kids are all like, very
distinctive, not just in their their
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personalities, but in their looks.
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And you know, they've got certain
accessories and stuff that you're like,
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oh, that's the kid with the goggles.
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Okay, got it.
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I remember him.
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So like, it's, it's
really well put together.
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And I think, like, going back
to what Ivy said uro was a
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fine choice for a found father.
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Or for a chosen father.
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Because not only is he
like a, great filmmaker-
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Ben: looks like a great hugger.
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Jeremy: sympathy.
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Yeah.
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Ivy: Oh my God.
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You know, he gives the best hugs,
you know, it's like hugging totorro.
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Jeremy: I feel like this
dude's gotta be a great hugger.
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We've, we, we've talked about this
before on this show, I think is,
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he is, I would like to hug Altorro.
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It seems like it would be
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Ben: Yes.
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Ivy: everything wrong with my life.
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I think if I could, if I
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could give
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to hug.
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Ben: Well, I mean, there is that,
00:07:51.332 --> 00:07:55.922
that famous anecdote about how,
uh, the little girl actress in the
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flashback scene of Pacific Rim to
help her be not afraid during filming.
00:08:01.922 --> 00:08:03.752
Let her call him Totorro sound.
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Let him call him Totorro during filming,
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Ivy: It's so cute.
00:08:07.154 --> 00:08:08.954
Or have you seen that footage of him?
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So he has like a favorite like
Kaiju and he went to Japan to do
00:08:12.744 --> 00:08:14.334
promo, I think for Pacific Rim.
00:08:14.724 --> 00:08:19.254
And they show him getting to meet
like an actor in the Kaiju costume.
00:08:19.254 --> 00:08:21.204
And he's just delighted.
00:08:21.204 --> 00:08:25.074
Like he's just is the happiest
I've ever seen someone look.
00:08:25.314 --> 00:08:28.764
He's just the cutest man who
makes the most terrifying movies.
00:08:29.164 --> 00:08:33.779
Ben: I feel like they say, you
know, like, oh, You don't wanna
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see how like the sausage is made
of like, creative endeavors.
00:08:36.659 --> 00:08:42.089
Like once you peek behind the
curtain it loses magic, I think.
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But there's so much that like if the
creative process that like increases the
00:08:46.325 --> 00:08:50.619
magic, and I think you can see that with
De Toro that like he's not just seeing
00:08:51.189 --> 00:08:58.039
a monster design he likes, he's seeing
decades of film history and the directors
00:08:58.044 --> 00:09:03.819
and actors and effects teams who put
that history and the greater context.
00:09:03.819 --> 00:09:10.699
And I mean, he's just a, a man who
clearly loves film and that love is
00:09:11.099 --> 00:09:13.289
felt in the DNA of all of his movie.
00:09:13.946 --> 00:09:14.666
Ivy: Absolutely.
00:09:14.666 --> 00:09:16.886
They feel so personal.
00:09:17.246 --> 00:09:22.526
And I think what, especially, like I love
about the Devil's Backbone is that, so he
00:09:23.036 --> 00:09:25.796
considers it a sister to Pan's Labyrinth.
00:09:25.936 --> 00:09:28.276
He thinks of them as
like a pair of movies.
00:09:28.902 --> 00:09:31.857
And they both feel so personal.
00:09:31.862 --> 00:09:36.137
And I feel like you can feel like
memories of childhood and again, like
00:09:36.137 --> 00:09:39.797
that love of filmmaking, that love
of comic books, like things that we
00:09:39.797 --> 00:09:44.807
carry through our lives into adulthood,
like so reflected in them and it
00:09:44.807 --> 00:09:46.517
makes them feel very personal to you.
00:09:46.917 --> 00:09:53.607
Ben: if someone told me that Guillermo
Delto was actually born in 1929 and
00:09:53.607 --> 00:09:59.467
then in 1942 time traveled to like
90, like 1990, I would believe you.
00:10:00.517 --> 00:10:00.817
Ivy: Yeah.
00:10:01.027 --> 00:10:03.757
Ben: like, cuz like you said,
it's like I know this man wasn't
00:10:03.987 --> 00:10:05.527
a lie for the Spanish Civil War.
00:10:07.156 --> 00:10:10.526
Whatever he went through there,
this is clearly an era or
00:10:10.526 --> 00:10:14.689
experience that resonates with
him on an incredibly deep level.
00:10:14.939 --> 00:10:18.459
Jeremy: I'm, I'm not an old enough
person to really make this like stick,
00:10:18.459 --> 00:10:23.049
but I think it's incredible that
GUI do Toro as still a very young
00:10:23.049 --> 00:10:26.949
filmmaker at the point that he was
making this, has the like, insight to
00:10:26.949 --> 00:10:29.289
write characters like Carmen and Dr.
00:10:29.289 --> 00:10:34.729
Casares, who are like older people
who like have a lot of interiority,
00:10:34.729 --> 00:10:36.469
who have a lot of stuff going on.
00:10:36.469 --> 00:10:37.939
Some of it's kind of fucked up.
00:10:38.219 --> 00:10:45.119
But like, they feel like real people who
have lived really long, hard lives and
00:10:45.119 --> 00:10:47.129
like, that's not something you can say.
00:10:47.134 --> 00:10:49.859
I think for a lot of even
good young filmmakers
00:10:49.859 --> 00:10:50.648
but like, like,
00:10:50.723 --> 00:10:53.183
Ben: you wanna talk actors who I, who?
00:10:53.903 --> 00:10:54.413
Amazing.
00:10:54.413 --> 00:10:57.203
This movie Federico, Lupe as Dr.
00:10:57.203 --> 00:10:57.923
Casares.
00:10:58.313 --> 00:10:59.453
Just incredible.
00:10:59.853 --> 00:11:00.723
Ivy: He's incredible.
00:11:01.123 --> 00:11:01.393
Ben: such
00:11:01.573 --> 00:11:03.763
Ivy: looks so much like Christopher Lee.
00:11:03.763 --> 00:11:04.723
It throws me off
00:11:05.803 --> 00:11:06.523
Ben: he does he
00:11:06.958 --> 00:11:07.378
Susan: But.
00:11:08.213 --> 00:11:13.748
Ben: Absolutely a hundred percent looks
like Argentinian Christopher Le, a hundred
00:11:13.868 --> 00:11:14.678
Jeremy: It's crystal ball
00:11:15.375 --> 00:11:17.835
Susan: You, you get that sense
of like, that love of film.
00:11:17.835 --> 00:11:21.225
And as you know, I, I love old films
and I love, you know, film noir.
00:11:21.225 --> 00:11:24.445
And so you can see that, you know,
Deltoro is somebody who clearly
00:11:24.445 --> 00:11:28.625
studied those like old classic films
where they have like older women and
00:11:28.625 --> 00:11:31.265
older men who are like still vibrant.
00:11:31.465 --> 00:11:33.655
You know, that just isn't
something you see now.
00:11:33.705 --> 00:11:37.905
And you see like, like her lust and
her passion and all those things.
00:11:37.905 --> 00:11:39.735
And same thing with, with him.
00:11:40.185 --> 00:11:44.775
And um, and we just don't see
that I think in, in modern films.
00:11:45.065 --> 00:11:47.615
Certainly not in, these
sort of fantastical films.
00:11:47.615 --> 00:11:50.505
And I, that was one of the things
that I just loved about it was the
00:11:50.505 --> 00:11:52.035
humanity of those two characters.
00:11:52.185 --> 00:11:55.005
I mean, all the characters,
but they just grabbed.
00:11:55.671 --> 00:12:00.651
Ben: Also between this and Cronos
having now seen Federico, Look
00:12:00.651 --> 00:12:05.475
clean-shaven with a mustache and with
a beard, fucking beard all the way.
00:12:07.550 --> 00:12:08.040
Jeremy: Yeah.
00:12:08.440 --> 00:12:09.070
Yeah, he's,
00:12:09.325 --> 00:12:11.245
Ben: Fucking, he looks
amazing in that beard.
00:12:11.605 --> 00:12:13.435
He looks, he looks great in this movie.
00:12:13.610 --> 00:12:16.770
You know, aside from the part where
he's dead and covered in flies.
00:12:16.890 --> 00:12:18.930
But when he is alive, he looks great.
00:12:19.340 --> 00:12:19.875
Jeremy: looks great.
00:12:19.875 --> 00:12:22.785
Dead and covered in flies, you
know, and it's a lot to, it's
00:12:22.785 --> 00:12:24.015
a lot to expect of somebody.
00:12:24.475 --> 00:12:26.635
But I don't feel like we can talk
about him without talking about
00:12:26.635 --> 00:12:28.615
Marisa Paredes as well, who like,
00:12:29.015 --> 00:12:29.435
Ben: Yes,
00:12:30.010 --> 00:12:30.520
Jeremy: great.
00:12:30.880 --> 00:12:36.340
Like, you know, I've, I've seen
her in, in several other films.
00:12:36.420 --> 00:12:41.370
You know, she was in, and she's
in the skin I live in, like, and
00:12:41.370 --> 00:12:44.010
she is always just fantastic.
00:12:44.010 --> 00:12:45.420
Like, she, she brings it every time.
00:12:45.920 --> 00:12:47.900
Those are both Pedro Almodovar movies.
00:12:47.900 --> 00:12:50.570
So like, he, he writes
women very well as well.
00:12:50.840 --> 00:12:57.175
But like, yeah, she's, she's so deep,
there's so much going on with, Carmen
00:12:57.175 --> 00:13:01.595
throughout this movie that like, as
the movie goes on, it just sort of
00:13:01.595 --> 00:13:03.605
keeps peeling back layers on her.
00:13:03.995 --> 00:13:07.405
And you know, by the time you find out
the worst things about her, you already
00:13:07.405 --> 00:13:09.245
like her a lot, so you're like, ah.
00:13:09.715 --> 00:13:14.225
Like, that's, that's terrible, I guess.
00:13:14.625 --> 00:13:14.915
Ben: I.
00:13:15.060 --> 00:13:17.740
Susan: mean, it, it just makes you
feel like so much more compassion
00:13:17.740 --> 00:13:19.510
for other characters, right?
00:13:19.510 --> 00:13:21.970
It makes you feel a little bit
more compassion for histo and
00:13:22.400 --> 00:13:24.076
and it also makes you look at
00:13:24.076 --> 00:13:26.326
how fully developed each character is.
00:13:26.748 --> 00:13:29.908
Ben: Plus Act one Jacinto before you
realize just what a piece of shit he is.
00:13:29.908 --> 00:13:34.978
I mean, fucking, I get it
like, yeah, Marisa Paredes
00:13:35.428 --> 00:13:39.358
Ivy: Jacinto is such a great antagonist
for exactly the reason we were just
00:13:39.358 --> 00:13:45.328
talking about, like, he has so much
depth I feel like Del Toro gives you,
00:13:45.328 --> 00:13:48.778
and like at the beginning, you know,
we were talking about it and you said
00:13:48.778 --> 00:13:50.278
there was like no fat on it, right?
00:13:50.278 --> 00:13:55.948
Like, In such a tight film, to give
that much depth to an antagonist
00:13:55.948 --> 00:14:00.058
is really hard cuz it would be very
easy to make us into like a mustache
00:14:00.058 --> 00:14:02.608
twirling, like child murderer.
00:14:03.378 --> 00:14:05.968
Ben: instead, he's a
complex child murderer.
00:14:07.198 --> 00:14:08.878
Ivy: a more interesting child murderer or.
00:14:08.953 --> 00:14:09.253
Ben: Yeah.
00:14:09.283 --> 00:14:10.663
Oh, very interesting child.
00:14:10.776 --> 00:14:12.576
A very interesting child murderer.
00:14:12.976 --> 00:14:13.936
Yeah, like every, you're right.
00:14:13.941 --> 00:14:19.016
Like no one's just a cartoon
character except maybe Goggles boy.
00:14:19.106 --> 00:14:21.146
Goggles boy might be a
little bit of a cartoon.
00:14:21.366 --> 00:14:24.821
But everyone else is
very three-dimensional.
00:14:25.293 --> 00:14:30.713
Like ha, the degree to which Jaime is
introduced as just the taller orphanage
00:14:30.713 --> 00:14:36.903
bully, and then goes on to be so
developed, like to the point where Jaime
00:14:36.903 --> 00:14:38.983
kind of overshadows Carlos in the plot.
00:14:39.563 --> 00:14:43.883
Ivy: I think the shot of the bomb
landing on the night that Jaime sees
00:14:43.883 --> 00:14:48.113
it, I think it's one of my favorite
shots in any movie ever made.
00:14:48.383 --> 00:14:50.333
It's so like, I don't know.
00:14:50.333 --> 00:14:52.943
You feel so much that experience for him.
00:14:52.943 --> 00:14:55.993
Like he goes through this terrible
experience and he comes outside and the
00:14:55.993 --> 00:14:58.036
bomb lands and it's like, I don't know.
00:14:58.036 --> 00:15:00.466
You just feel so bonded
to him in that moment.
00:15:00.866 --> 00:15:01.076
Ben: Oh
00:15:01.331 --> 00:15:02.181
Susan: Absolutely.
00:15:02.186 --> 00:15:02.501
Yeah.
00:15:02.901 --> 00:15:06.888
Jeremy: yeah, it, it's such an interesting
thing to evoke in people watching this
00:15:06.893 --> 00:15:10.188
movie that by the time you get to the
end of the movie, you're like, I really
00:15:10.188 --> 00:15:11.658
hope Jaime gets to kill this guy.
00:15:12.588 --> 00:15:14.058
I really want him to get that
00:15:14.748 --> 00:15:15.408
Susan: Right, right.
00:15:16.583 --> 00:15:17.073
Ivy: Yeah.
00:15:17.078 --> 00:15:18.536
Ben: the end of the movie, hell yeah.
00:15:18.603 --> 00:15:19.383
especially.
00:15:19.783 --> 00:15:23.653
Because this isn't like, oh,
we've stopped the villain right
00:15:23.653 --> 00:15:25.003
at the height of his plan.
00:15:25.003 --> 00:15:28.453
Or we've, we're having an
epic due and I win the dual.
00:15:28.853 --> 00:15:33.393
This is a mop of people like
repeatedly spearing, someone
00:15:33.393 --> 00:15:35.103
crawling along the floor.
00:15:35.503 --> 00:15:40.130
So it says a lot about how good
the setup is, that I'm still
00:15:40.130 --> 00:15:41.780
entirely rooting for this.
00:15:41.785 --> 00:15:46.960
That at no point during just this,
you know, group child murder, am I
00:15:46.965 --> 00:15:48.610
being like, Ooh, is this too far?
00:15:48.615 --> 00:15:50.140
Should this be a good thing?
00:15:50.140 --> 00:15:52.150
I'm still like, Hey, you're
doing what you gotta do.
00:15:52.150 --> 00:15:52.720
Go get 'em.
00:15:52.720 --> 00:15:53.230
Kids.
00:15:54.903 --> 00:15:57.003
That's a tough line for a movie to walk.
00:15:57.003 --> 00:15:59.203
And this movie dances on.
00:15:59.746 --> 00:16:02.086
Ivy: deltoro is so
intentional with violence.
00:16:02.250 --> 00:16:06.690
You know, I think a lot about like the
bottle breaking scene in Pan's Labyrinth.
00:16:06.836 --> 00:16:08.816
if you've seen Pan's Labyrinth,
it's pretty gruesome.
00:16:08.879 --> 00:16:09.389
even like.
00:16:10.254 --> 00:16:12.584
You know, this repeated
stabbing with sticks, right?
00:16:12.584 --> 00:16:16.494
Like there's never violence in his movies
that feels over the top, even though
00:16:16.494 --> 00:16:20.604
it really easily could, it always feels
really realistic and really grounded.
00:16:20.609 --> 00:16:24.534
And I think that's what makes it
so affecting, cuz it feels like
00:16:24.924 --> 00:16:27.024
very visceral and very real.
00:16:27.474 --> 00:16:31.104
Like I can't think of him ever using
violence in like a fetishistic way.
00:16:31.504 --> 00:16:31.864
Susan: Right.
00:16:31.924 --> 00:16:35.524
I mean, I found that the, the stabbing
seemed to be almost restrained.
00:16:35.554 --> 00:16:38.027
Like, I thought it was gonna be like
the stabbing of the mammoth, and it
00:16:38.027 --> 00:16:41.387
would just be like this frenzy, and
it really wasn't, I mean, it really
00:16:41.477 --> 00:16:42.077
Ben: oh shit.
00:16:42.082 --> 00:16:43.817
I didn't even make the mammoth connection.
00:16:44.217 --> 00:16:44.667
Fuck.
00:16:44.667 --> 00:16:47.007
I didn't even, ah, yeah.
00:16:47.457 --> 00:16:48.867
Oh, this movie y'all.
00:16:50.097 --> 00:16:54.507
Jeremy: that first spear that goes in
under his arm just looks so painful.
00:16:54.507 --> 00:16:54.927
Like it
00:16:54.927 --> 00:16:59.457
looks like it hurts so much, and like
he doesn't, there's no end trails.
00:16:59.457 --> 00:17:02.967
There's not a ton of blood in
this, except for used as like
00:17:02.967 --> 00:17:04.797
color effect more than anything.
00:17:05.157 --> 00:17:09.047
But like when that first spear hits
under the arm and that, that soft
00:17:09.047 --> 00:17:11.807
spot, it's just, it hurts to watch.
00:17:11.812 --> 00:17:15.257
You're like, oh, I really kind of
want that guy to die right now.
00:17:15.262 --> 00:17:16.427
But, oh my God.
00:17:17.387 --> 00:17:17.897
Ben: right?
00:17:17.897 --> 00:17:20.237
Like there's no, I'm like, Ooh,
this isn't gonna be a fight.
00:17:20.242 --> 00:17:21.137
He, he is lost.
00:17:21.137 --> 00:17:22.637
There's no coming back from that.
00:17:23.027 --> 00:17:28.467
The one moment that I think Del Toro
Con kind of gave into spectacle,
00:17:28.619 --> 00:17:31.784
this is more object destruction than.
00:17:31.852 --> 00:17:36.639
violence on person is, and I, again, if
someone told me Robert Rodriguez like,
00:17:36.639 --> 00:17:41.659
filled in for a day while Del Toro had a
stomach bug, I would believe you is when
00:17:41.664 --> 00:17:47.809
the car explodes and debris fly straight
into the camera as a scene transition
00:17:48.209 --> 00:17:48.210
Jeremy: Yeah,
00:17:48.349 --> 00:17:48.839
Susan: Yeah,
00:17:48.976 --> 00:17:52.786
Ben: it's a cool moment, but it's also
a kind of totally outta place with
00:17:52.826 --> 00:17:55.186
Ivy: Yeah, tonally very strange.
00:17:55.756 --> 00:17:56.246
Susan: yeah.
00:17:56.646 --> 00:18:01.561
Jeremy: I, I think it, it works because,
so many children die in that scene.
00:18:01.801 --> 00:18:04.914
Like when they, come back and they
pan back over the ground and there
00:18:04.919 --> 00:18:11.074
are several young boys dead, like
not dying, but like they are gone.
00:18:11.404 --> 00:18:15.934
It's like, oh, like that
wasn't a fun action explosion.
00:18:15.934 --> 00:18:18.437
That was an explosion of like a car.
00:18:18.442 --> 00:18:21.677
And when cars explode, pieces of
them come off and they kill people.
00:18:22.077 --> 00:18:22.527
Susan: Right.
00:18:22.937 --> 00:18:28.297
Ben: I wanna say Del Toro was always so
good about showing, just, you know, they
00:18:28.297 --> 00:18:34.051
say you can't make a truly anti-war film
because the show war is to glamorize it.
00:18:34.164 --> 00:18:38.801
But I feel like Del Toro might have
found a way to tell a truly anti-war
00:18:38.801 --> 00:18:44.050
film by never showing the soldiers or
the battle, but by focusing squarely
00:18:44.121 --> 00:18:47.704
on the effects and trauma of innocence.
00:18:48.094 --> 00:18:52.211
Ivy: Yeah, The critic um, Jay
Hoberman called the Devil's Backbone
00:18:52.211 --> 00:18:57.321
when it was released anti-Fascist
Supernaturalism, and I really loved that.
00:18:57.321 --> 00:18:58.011
I know.
00:18:58.011 --> 00:18:59.481
Isn't that just awesome?
00:18:59.841 --> 00:18:59.961
But
00:18:59.961 --> 00:19:01.821
Susan: we made a lot
more of that these days.
00:19:02.001 --> 00:19:02.541
Ivy: Yeah.
00:19:02.661 --> 00:19:03.261
Ben: Right?
00:19:03.351 --> 00:19:03.801
Oh my
00:19:03.856 --> 00:19:08.181
Ivy: was really, I would say that Del
Toro was an anti-fascist filmmaker.
00:19:08.181 --> 00:19:11.751
I mean, it's so much a theme
in a lot of his work, you know?
00:19:12.081 --> 00:19:14.841
Ben: I mean, to bring it back to
Pacific Rim, which not a horror
00:19:14.841 --> 00:19:16.564
movie, but is the movie I love.
00:19:16.641 --> 00:19:21.494
I mean, he talked in great detail in
interviews about like how much thought
00:19:21.494 --> 00:19:26.004
he put into just you know, the titles
of this fighting force, that he very
00:19:26.394 --> 00:19:32.161
explicitly wanted to avoid traditional
military titles, which is why uh, you
00:19:32.161 --> 00:19:36.744
know, it's like, I forget what Idris
Alba's rank is in that to Google.
00:19:37.051 --> 00:19:42.151
But yeah, it's all about like rangers
and marshals instead of like generals
00:19:42.151 --> 00:19:43.441
and lieutenants and captains.
00:19:43.441 --> 00:19:49.386
Like he was very explicit about wanting
to, in this one movie where he kind of
00:19:49.386 --> 00:19:54.846
absolutely does glorify violence, granted
it's giant robot on monster violence.
00:19:55.009 --> 00:19:57.134
So not something that I think
people will have too much real
00:19:57.134 --> 00:19:58.574
world trauma about, hopefully.
00:19:59.144 --> 00:20:03.914
Then again, we, Emily has made us watch
a lot of Avon Gelian, so I'm not sure,
00:20:04.514 --> 00:20:09.944
but even in this one movie where it
is monsters versus robots, he's still
00:20:09.944 --> 00:20:14.594
putting thought into, okay, if we're
glorifying this big beat him up, how can
00:20:14.594 --> 00:20:18.704
we make sure we're not glor accidentally
glorifying the military alongside it?
00:20:18.887 --> 00:20:21.851
And uh, especially if you look at
that in the context of say, like, You
00:20:21.851 --> 00:20:26.672
know, like the Michael Bay films
with the Military's presence or Dark
00:20:26.672 --> 00:20:30.902
Knight Rises, where you have Batman
literally leading an army of cops.
00:20:31.115 --> 00:20:36.389
You know, it's, it's a level of
thought and anti-fascism that I
00:20:36.479 --> 00:20:40.679
don't think a lot of other filmmakers
are really as conscious or aware
00:20:40.679 --> 00:20:44.189
of, and as intentional on avoiding,
00:20:44.774 --> 00:20:47.684
Jeremy: The only other one that
comes to mind is Ryan Johnson, and
00:20:47.689 --> 00:20:51.814
I think that's just because I'm, I'm
watching Poker face right now, which is
00:20:51.964 --> 00:20:54.724
basically, what if Colombo was not a cop?
00:20:54.934 --> 00:20:56.374
Like, hmm.
00:20:56.419 --> 00:20:59.479
Ben: Ryan Johnson, definitely
also in the anti-fascist camp.
00:20:59.749 --> 00:21:04.729
Also, I have not watched Dark Night Rises
in quite a number of years, and only
00:21:04.734 --> 00:21:09.799
just now in this moment, pulling that
example out of thin air, did I realize how
00:21:09.799 --> 00:21:12.259
poorly Batman leading an army of cops as.
00:21:12.980 --> 00:21:13.370
Susan: Yeah.
00:21:13.425 --> 00:21:16.385
Jeremy: Yeah, I mean, that
whole movie has a lot of issues.
00:21:17.732 --> 00:21:21.769
Like Derek Knight has a lot of issues
on a thematic level that are easily
00:21:21.769 --> 00:21:25.442
forgotten underneath, like, Heath
ledger's performance and things like that.
00:21:25.759 --> 00:21:29.502
Uh, Dark Knight Rises does not have
that sort of thing going for it.
00:21:30.165 --> 00:21:30.515
Ivy: no.
00:21:31.222 --> 00:21:34.068
Jeremy: Well, Ben, did you
want to uh, do the, the recap
00:21:34.492 --> 00:21:35.512
Ben: Uh, yes.
00:21:35.512 --> 00:21:40.922
The Devil's Backbone is introduced
through uh, Carlos an orphan who.
00:21:41.083 --> 00:21:41.923
Just lost.
00:21:41.923 --> 00:21:45.107
His father doesn't seem fully
aware that he's lost his
00:21:45.107 --> 00:21:47.747
father, and that never
really comes back up again.
00:21:48.467 --> 00:21:49.337
Especially the whole movie.
00:21:49.337 --> 00:21:50.867
Never knows that his father's dead.
00:21:51.267 --> 00:21:52.197
So that's a thing.
00:21:52.360 --> 00:21:53.560
And he's dropped off.
00:21:53.770 --> 00:21:55.930
Importantly, it's the Spanish Civil War.
00:21:55.935 --> 00:21:59.140
His father was an anti-fascist.
00:21:59.277 --> 00:22:04.107
And he is brought to an orphanage
run by other members of that,
00:22:04.107 --> 00:22:05.940
um, the socialist forces.
00:22:06.340 --> 00:22:10.570
It's not really clear if they're
funding or how it all works, uh,
00:22:10.570 --> 00:22:12.247
but the people running it uh, Dr.
00:22:12.247 --> 00:22:18.787
Casares and Carmen are very clearly
former or actively involved in fighting
00:22:18.787 --> 00:22:20.647
the fascist or in the Civil War.
00:22:21.047 --> 00:22:22.037
You know, they talk a lot.
00:22:22.067 --> 00:22:25.457
They talk about like, Ooh, maybe
England or France will come or help us.
00:22:25.517 --> 00:22:28.337
And then they talk about how
that's definitely not gonna happen.
00:22:28.737 --> 00:22:31.677
Ernest Hemingway flies
in with his ambulance.
00:22:32.077 --> 00:22:32.347
Okay.
00:22:32.347 --> 00:22:35.677
That part didn't happen, but, you know,
somewhere during this movie, Ernest
00:22:35.677 --> 00:22:37.957
Hemingway was driving an ambulance around.
00:22:38.407 --> 00:22:43.588
On his first night in the orphanage
Carlos meets several other orphans
00:22:43.798 --> 00:22:46.908
like aforementioned Goggle Boy,
whose name I don't remember,
00:22:46.908 --> 00:22:48.228
and is not in the Wikipedia
00:22:48.303 --> 00:22:49.743
Jeremy: I think that's Galvez.
00:22:50.418 --> 00:22:51.108
Susan: Kelz.
00:22:51.948 --> 00:22:52.578
Ben: Thank you.
00:22:52.898 --> 00:22:57.038
Owl whose deal is, he does
not talk and is small.
00:22:57.458 --> 00:23:03.518
And Jaime, who as we've talked about,
is introduced as a bully, who is
00:23:03.518 --> 00:23:09.548
mean to Carlos takes his comics and
pranks him into getting in trouble.
00:23:10.058 --> 00:23:12.705
But as we will find out uh, he is.
00:23:12.728 --> 00:23:15.787
A far more complicated
person, also an artist.
00:23:15.877 --> 00:23:21.277
And Carlos and him start to be friends
after Carlos doesn't rat him out for
00:23:21.282 --> 00:23:23.167
them all sneaking outside at night.
00:23:23.330 --> 00:23:26.870
Not that Kaaris doesn't figure it out
anyway, cuz Casares's is smart like that.
00:23:27.000 --> 00:23:28.980
He's been at this game longer
than they've been alive.
00:23:28.980 --> 00:23:30.760
They can't keep fucking
secrets from Casares.
00:23:30.780 --> 00:23:31.500
He knows what's up.
00:23:31.900 --> 00:23:39.227
Meanwhile, there's also Jacinto who
is nominally engaged to the woman who
00:23:39.227 --> 00:23:45.347
works at the orphanage, but is also
having an affair with Carmen, who is
00:23:45.747 --> 00:23:50.607
rightfully ashamed because he was also
an orphan in her care way back when.
00:23:50.817 --> 00:23:52.107
Jeremy: He's an OG orphan.
00:23:52.167 --> 00:23:54.777
He's been an orphan
there for like 16 years.
00:23:54.777 --> 00:23:55.527
I think he says
00:23:55.927 --> 00:24:02.317
Ben: there's layers, I mean, Not quite
Oedipal, but it's uncomfortably close.
00:24:02.767 --> 00:24:05.527
And he, he's just bad.
00:24:05.527 --> 00:24:09.857
I mean, you know, he is generally just
horrible to be around and also just
00:24:09.857 --> 00:24:13.037
cuts Carlos' face as like a warning.
00:24:13.577 --> 00:24:16.830
So, you know, generally stay
away from the people who just
00:24:16.830 --> 00:24:19.230
indiscriminately knife children's faces.
00:24:19.430 --> 00:24:20.210
Jeremy: his girlfriend
00:24:20.450 --> 00:24:20.910
Conchita.
00:24:20.960 --> 00:24:23.360
Turns out to be a real G though like.
00:24:23.420 --> 00:24:25.100
Ben: oh, she's absolute g
00:24:25.178 --> 00:24:27.878
Jeremy: She spends a lot of the
movies sort of watching him do bad
00:24:27.878 --> 00:24:30.128
shit and making excuses for it.
00:24:30.608 --> 00:24:34.301
But like later on in the movie will be
the one that's like, well, everybody
00:24:34.301 --> 00:24:37.991
else here is old a child, so I guess
I'm gonna walk a day and a half to
00:24:37.991 --> 00:24:44.531
town to like save the day despite, you
know, wearing a dress and old shoes.
00:24:44.531 --> 00:24:45.221
Like, I'm just
00:24:45.226 --> 00:24:45.611
going to
00:24:45.811 --> 00:24:46.631
Ben: doesn't even take water.
00:24:46.631 --> 00:24:48.291
She's, she's just ready to.
00:24:49.151 --> 00:24:52.121
And then it's still point blank
by Jacinto like, I'm gonna kill
00:24:52.121 --> 00:24:53.171
you if you don't come with me.
00:24:53.171 --> 00:24:56.891
And she says, get fucked at knife point.
00:24:57.311 --> 00:25:02.741
So she unfortunately does not make
it, but she goes out like, like a boss
00:25:02.861 --> 00:25:07.541
on her feet telling Jacinto to his
face, what a piece of shit she is.
00:25:07.941 --> 00:25:08.781
She's awesome.
00:25:09.181 --> 00:25:15.631
But before all of this fucking Carlos
sees a ghost Santi you know, and it's
00:25:15.631 --> 00:25:18.931
in that kind of way where Del Toro
likes to do, where it's like, Ooh,
00:25:18.991 --> 00:25:21.241
ghost, is this gonna be creepy or scary?
00:25:21.241 --> 00:25:23.881
But you're like, no, Del
Toro, I know you're making it.
00:25:23.881 --> 00:25:24.691
You love ghosts.
00:25:24.691 --> 00:25:27.471
The ghost is clearly gonna turn
out to be a good person who
00:25:27.471 --> 00:25:30.991
was like wrongfully killed and
helped them in the end, which is
00:25:31.206 --> 00:25:36.156
Jeremy: I love how they do his, the
effect of, of Santi, like he looks
00:25:36.156 --> 00:25:39.456
mostly like a normal kid from a
distance, except that he's a little,
00:25:39.726 --> 00:25:42.906
you know, pale and washed out cuz
he's been underwater for a long time.
00:25:43.266 --> 00:25:47.366
But like, he has like this sort of
trickle of blood coming out of his
00:25:47.366 --> 00:25:51.529
forehead anytime he shows up, which
like is such a quick indicator of
00:25:51.529 --> 00:25:53.569
like, oh, that's not, that's not right.
00:25:54.014 --> 00:25:55.354
Ivy: Yeah, it's something.
00:25:56.299 --> 00:25:59.959
Del Toro Perfects also this
in Crimson Peak later, like he
00:25:59.959 --> 00:26:03.169
brings back the floaty blood ghost
and you're like, hell yeah man.
00:26:03.169 --> 00:26:03.889
Keep doing it.
00:26:04.039 --> 00:26:05.289
I wanna see more of that.
00:26:05.794 --> 00:26:10.304
Ben: I saw Crimson Peak first before
this movie, so I'm like seeing the
00:26:10.304 --> 00:26:12.134
ghost get, I'm like, I know your tricks.
00:26:12.134 --> 00:26:14.054
Del Toro, I saw Crimson Peak.
00:26:14.154 --> 00:26:15.024
That kid's fine.
00:26:15.234 --> 00:26:16.734
That kid's gonna be an ally.
00:26:16.984 --> 00:26:20.044
Jeremy: Not to be a jerk about it,
but this movie's much better than
00:26:20.044 --> 00:26:21.604
Crimson Peak, which we've already
00:26:21.649 --> 00:26:24.199
Ben: This movie is much
better than Crimson Peak.
00:26:24.514 --> 00:26:26.014
Ivy: You can't argue it really.
00:26:26.134 --> 00:26:28.649
Ben: up, this is a better movie.
00:26:29.049 --> 00:26:29.409
I'm sorry.
00:26:29.469 --> 00:26:31.569
Coming of age in the Spanish.
00:26:31.574 --> 00:26:36.949
Civil War is more interesting
than fucking Loki does an incest.
00:26:37.349 --> 00:26:40.619
Ivy: I'm a Crimson Peak and
even I can't, like, there's no
00:26:40.619 --> 00:26:42.359
like to stand on, to say Devil's
00:26:42.734 --> 00:26:42.914
Ben: I'm
00:26:42.934 --> 00:26:43.409
Ivy: isn't better.
00:26:43.499 --> 00:26:44.459
Absolutely better.
00:26:44.954 --> 00:26:48.044
Ben: bad, I'm not, I'm not saying
it's a bad movie by any means.
00:26:48.044 --> 00:26:51.434
I'm just saying this, this
is not a hard ranking to
00:26:51.584 --> 00:26:53.114
Ivy: No, it's not.
00:26:53.276 --> 00:26:55.466
Ben: But yeah, so there's ghosts.
00:26:55.496 --> 00:26:58.826
We learn way more about, you
know, the characters in the world.
00:26:58.826 --> 00:27:04.459
But after Casas goes into
town to sell his weird fucking
00:27:04.859 --> 00:27:05.549
Jeremy: this dead baby.
00:27:07.079 --> 00:27:07.559
Ben: Excuse
00:27:07.799 --> 00:27:10.979
Susan: Yeah, the dead baby juice
was a little bit disturbing to me.
00:27:10.979 --> 00:27:13.499
That was like the most disturbing
thing about the whole movie to me.
00:27:13.899 --> 00:27:17.919
Ben: that almost felt like he made the
whole movie, couldn't come up with a good
00:27:17.924 --> 00:27:20.799
title, thought, Ooh, devil's Backbone.
00:27:20.859 --> 00:27:25.629
That title slaps, and then threw a
scene together just to justify it.
00:27:26.029 --> 00:27:26.299
Jeremy: Yeah.
00:27:26.299 --> 00:27:29.756
Cuz the, the idea is that this,
child died because they have
00:27:29.756 --> 00:27:32.846
a, you know, deformation that
they call the Devil's Backbone.
00:27:33.116 --> 00:27:38.039
And it's been preserved in this
this mixture that is primarily rum
00:27:38.039 --> 00:27:44.236
and spices that the the doctor then
sells to men to supposedly cure their
00:27:44.236 --> 00:27:47.236
impotence because guys will drink
anything if they think it'll make, you
00:27:47.236 --> 00:27:48.556
know, take care of their impotence.
00:27:48.804 --> 00:27:49.688
Susan: He drinks it though.
00:27:49.688 --> 00:27:51.018
That was the part that creeped me out.
00:27:51.753 --> 00:27:54.953
Ben: well, I mean, that to me was, you
talk about these characters getting.
00:27:55.838 --> 00:28:00.098
In Internality and getting to be
complicated here is a guy who knows
00:28:00.098 --> 00:28:04.294
its bullshit, is pedalling the
bullshit himself, but even he wants to
00:28:04.299 --> 00:28:07.574
believe in it enough to give it a try,
00:28:07.974 --> 00:28:11.164
Jeremy: He really desperately
wants to not be impotent.
00:28:11.344 --> 00:28:15.521
Like it's, you know, he, he clearly
is, you know, in love with Carmen, but
00:28:15.521 --> 00:28:19.391
cannot physically do anything about
it, which she is desperate for somebody
00:28:19.421 --> 00:28:21.041
to be able to do something about it.
00:28:21.356 --> 00:28:22.556
She's incredibly lonely.
00:28:22.956 --> 00:28:23.986
Ben: Jacinto does.
00:28:24.256 --> 00:28:28.366
J Jacinto is nice to look at if
nothing el and that is the only
00:28:28.366 --> 00:28:30.106
thing that is nice about Jacinto.
00:28:30.463 --> 00:28:35.773
after Kaaris goes into town, he finds out
that he sees that One of the loyalists
00:28:35.823 --> 00:28:41.463
who brought Carlos to the orphanage
has been captured by fascist in a very
00:28:41.463 --> 00:28:46.986
harrowing execution scene that, once
again is not gory, but the violence is
00:28:47.736 --> 00:28:50.286
given full impact and
it's just horrible, fine.
00:28:50.686 --> 00:28:53.896
Jeremy: because like they don't
show him being shot at all.
00:28:54.346 --> 00:28:56.536
They show Casares his reaction to it.
00:28:56.536 --> 00:28:59.896
And every time the gunfires,
it's so loud and Casares like
00:29:00.106 --> 00:29:01.966
jumps every time it happens.
00:29:01.966 --> 00:29:05.716
Cuz it's, it's, you know, obviously
so horrible to watch and you're just
00:29:05.716 --> 00:29:08.606
watching him watching it and it's still so
00:29:08.606 --> 00:29:11.456
Ben: very effective
use of discretion shot.
00:29:11.486 --> 00:29:15.986
It is absolutely a case where not seeing
it as much more effective than seeing it.
00:29:16.526 --> 00:29:20.016
I will say though, when they first
introduced like, Ooh, foreign
00:29:20.426 --> 00:29:22.556
soldiers are in town, are here.
00:29:23.006 --> 00:29:25.766
I did not realize this was
setting up an execution.
00:29:26.126 --> 00:29:27.896
And my first thought was, oh shit.
00:29:27.896 --> 00:29:29.966
Is this where we're gonna
get a Ron Perlman cameo?
00:29:30.366 --> 00:29:30.716
Jeremy: No,
00:29:30.886 --> 00:29:32.026
Ben: We got Americans in here.
00:29:32.266 --> 00:29:33.826
We, we got English speakers in here.
00:29:33.831 --> 00:29:34.946
We is is Perlman here?
00:29:35.066 --> 00:29:37.196
I've been waiting for Ron
Perlman, this whole movie,
00:29:37.596 --> 00:29:40.776
Jeremy: we know, we know Del Toro's
not gonna let him speak Spanish, so.
00:29:40.896 --> 00:29:41.001
Ben: I
00:29:41.001 --> 00:29:41.561
Susan: Right.
00:29:41.561 --> 00:29:44.236
Ben: Perlman not in this movie.
00:29:44.446 --> 00:29:49.476
And while I do believe Ron Perlman is one
of those actors that improves anything
00:29:49.481 --> 00:29:54.656
he's in, he probably would've been a
distraction in this particular film
00:29:55.106 --> 00:29:57.236
about orphans in the Spanish Civil War.
00:29:57.636 --> 00:30:04.366
Coming off of Del Toro doing a
low budget, fun vampire movie.
00:30:05.096 --> 00:30:11.731
Seeing him really be able to lock into
and absolutely deliver on a very somber,
00:30:11.731 --> 00:30:14.221
serious tone with complicated themes.
00:30:14.621 --> 00:30:19.211
I mean, if Cronos was the sense of like,
Ooh, this is a director with potential
00:30:19.611 --> 00:30:24.591
devil's backbones, where you go like,
oh wow, this is this is a director,
00:30:24.596 --> 00:30:26.991
this is a Spielberg level director.
00:30:27.151 --> 00:30:28.771
Like we're watching develop.
00:30:29.171 --> 00:30:29.306
Jeremy: Yeah.
00:30:29.706 --> 00:30:29.946
Yeah.
00:30:29.946 --> 00:30:32.646
I, I think it's interesting too, we
haven't really talked about, there's
00:30:32.646 --> 00:30:36.396
like the sort of, I sent to a subplot
throughout the thing of like he is
00:30:36.396 --> 00:30:41.466
trying to get to the last of the gold
that they're saving for the loyalists,
00:30:41.556 --> 00:30:45.516
which isn't a safe in the kitchen,
which sets up a lot of the like, bad
00:30:45.516 --> 00:30:47.106
shit that happens throughout the movie.
00:30:47.536 --> 00:30:51.376
Um, Is him trying to get into this safe
and part of the deal of how he's doing
00:30:51.376 --> 00:30:55.846
it is anytime he goes to Carmen's room
to sleep with her, he switches out
00:30:56.206 --> 00:31:01.011
some of the keys from her key ring to
go try those on the uh, safe and has
00:31:01.011 --> 00:31:03.051
not managed to find the right one yet.
00:31:03.094 --> 00:31:04.624
Thinks that she doesn't notice.
00:31:04.744 --> 00:31:07.834
We know that she notices cuz
she's, you know, looking at
00:31:07.834 --> 00:31:09.394
the keys at one point earlier
00:31:09.499 --> 00:31:12.709
Ben: Those are two very obvious
elements that I did not connect.
00:31:13.054 --> 00:31:13.564
Jeremy: yeah,
00:31:13.964 --> 00:31:16.394
Ben: I finished out this movie
going, so what was up with the keys?
00:31:16.604 --> 00:31:17.534
And he was having sex.
00:31:17.714 --> 00:31:18.434
That makes sense.
00:31:18.834 --> 00:31:19.254
So, yeah.
00:31:19.524 --> 00:31:24.624
So seeing that one of their loyalist
allies who knows about their orphanage
00:31:24.814 --> 00:31:29.953
and them, and the gold has been
captured Kass convinces Carmen that
00:31:30.343 --> 00:31:33.466
they all have to leave and they
try to take the orphans with them.
00:31:33.976 --> 00:31:40.036
But Jacinto is like, Hey, what if I
take all the gold for myself Instead
00:31:40.556 --> 00:31:42.586
Kass comes out with a gun, we get.
00:31:43.088 --> 00:31:46.638
A bunch of lines comparing guns
to penises as you know, your
00:31:46.638 --> 00:31:48.468
want to do with phallic objects.
00:31:48.868 --> 00:31:55.428
And Jacinto is driven away from
the orphanage for all of about five
00:31:55.433 --> 00:31:59.568
minutes before he comes and lights
a bunch of gas canisters on fire.
00:31:59.968 --> 00:32:06.411
Which then very gruesomely and
tragically kills Carmen a bunch of the
00:32:06.411 --> 00:32:09.259
orphans and mortally wounds, kaaris.
00:32:09.659 --> 00:32:12.989
So you did get this whole thing of
like the one helper lady just like
00:32:13.389 --> 00:32:20.733
trying to fan out this gasoline can
fire for an inordinate amount of time.
00:32:21.188 --> 00:32:22.518
Ivy: I know poor Alma.
00:32:22.783 --> 00:32:26.593
Jeremy: poor Alma, the other
teacher who is only in like really
00:32:26.593 --> 00:32:30.763
three or four scenes prevalently
and decides to put out a gas can
00:32:30.763 --> 00:32:32.563
fire by beating it with a blanket.
00:32:32.963 --> 00:32:36.233
Just to get blown to
smithereens in that scene.
00:32:36.533 --> 00:32:39.143
Ben: they didn't know the gasoline
was poured all the way to the car.
00:32:39.143 --> 00:32:42.909
That the car explosion definitely
was off a, but to a certain
00:32:42.909 --> 00:32:47.079
extent that death's within the
orphanage still was like, get out
00:32:47.479 --> 00:32:47.839
Susan: Yeah,
00:32:47.959 --> 00:32:49.669
Ben: the towel's not gonna win.
00:32:50.269 --> 00:32:54.776
I think it's time to call it go,
which even Carmen's like, okay,
00:32:54.776 --> 00:33:00.536
go Alma is, is whipping that
towel right to the bitter end.
00:33:01.588 --> 00:33:04.351
Jeremy: I think Alma's determined,
you know, that it's, it might take
00:33:04.351 --> 00:33:07.471
her, but she's gonna do anything
she can to try and save the kids.
00:33:07.811 --> 00:33:08.291
Susan: Yeah.
00:33:08.326 --> 00:33:09.041
Ben: doing nothing.
00:33:09.521 --> 00:33:10.271
The towel's doing
00:33:10.526 --> 00:33:10.976
Jeremy: she's
00:33:11.126 --> 00:33:11.426
she's
00:33:11.651 --> 00:33:13.181
Ben: Grab a kid and run.
00:33:13.766 --> 00:33:17.606
Jeremy: now kin is the one who
sees him pouring the gasoline.
00:33:17.906 --> 00:33:21.536
And even though she's incredibly
intimidated and still kind of in love
00:33:21.536 --> 00:33:25.003
with him at this point, does shoot
him in the shoulder with a shotgun.
00:33:25.303 --> 00:33:25.603
You know, it
00:33:25.603 --> 00:33:27.313
doesn't, doesn't take him out.
00:33:27.313 --> 00:33:28.273
But she, she does her.
00:33:29.046 --> 00:33:29.676
Ben: like, ah,
00:33:29.781 --> 00:33:31.881
Susan: and, and Carmen's pretty
heroic cuz she's the one who's
00:33:31.881 --> 00:33:33.231
trying to get Alma out of there
00:33:33.631 --> 00:33:34.201
Ben: Yes.
00:33:34.501 --> 00:33:34.771
Oh yeah.
00:33:34.771 --> 00:33:36.271
No, Carmen's great.
00:33:36.671 --> 00:33:37.631
Susan: with her very heavy leg.
00:33:37.989 --> 00:33:40.353
Ben: this isn't a true
criticism or something.
00:33:40.358 --> 00:33:44.526
It's just like this movie gave
me very little moments that I
00:33:44.526 --> 00:33:46.176
can construe into silliness.
00:33:46.386 --> 00:33:49.806
So I gotta, I gotta take what
silliness I could get from this movie.
00:33:50.206 --> 00:33:56.836
And it was pretty much like Alma with the
towel and the creepy eye, Jesus statue.
00:33:57.236 --> 00:33:58.646
That was way too bloody.
00:33:59.046 --> 00:34:03.953
But yeah, so after that COTA uh,
walks like a g to try to get
00:34:03.953 --> 00:34:06.153
help from around town and Dr.
00:34:06.153 --> 00:34:08.253
Casares, oh, poor Dr.
00:34:08.253 --> 00:34:08.763
Casares.
00:34:08.783 --> 00:34:10.366
You know, he can't hear anything.
00:34:10.366 --> 00:34:12.506
He can't hear Carmen's dying words.
00:34:12.506 --> 00:34:16.333
So instead reads her a dying
poem That's real, fucking sad.
00:34:16.733 --> 00:34:21.079
And then just lives long enough
to taunt Jacinto and go, ha,
00:34:21.079 --> 00:34:22.829
I'm still alive before then.
00:34:22.829 --> 00:34:24.209
Immediately dying.
00:34:24.738 --> 00:34:26.043
Jeremy: Yeah, it scares
him off for a little bit.
00:34:26.323 --> 00:34:27.983
Ben: Yeah, he buys time.
00:34:28.031 --> 00:34:30.057
He makes a vow strong enough
to then become a ghost.
00:34:30.437 --> 00:34:33.967
Jeremy: Jacinto does come back with
his two henchmen who um, we don't
00:34:33.972 --> 00:34:38.727
really learn much about other than
that they are, Both not loyalists
00:34:38.727 --> 00:34:40.617
and also afraid of the fascists.
00:34:40.617 --> 00:34:43.557
They seem to be just all around bad dudes.
00:34:43.807 --> 00:34:47.522
Down to the point that one of them is just
named El Puerco like he's just The Pig.
00:34:47.522 --> 00:34:49.327
Ben: He, well, he is, he is.
00:34:49.507 --> 00:34:52.307
He is big and literally named Pig.
00:34:52.807 --> 00:34:58.317
But we learned he has a brother
in Portugal, so Hey, hey.
00:34:58.617 --> 00:35:00.567
No, that's not a character trade at all.
00:35:00.627 --> 00:35:01.527
That that's nothing.
00:35:01.927 --> 00:35:03.497
Jeremy: It's the best thing
he's got going for him.
00:35:03.557 --> 00:35:04.277
He has a brother.
00:35:04.677 --> 00:35:06.957
Ben: yeah, so they lock up the kids.
00:35:07.067 --> 00:35:11.657
And Jaime kind of rallies the troops to
be like, what if we make, we're tiny,
00:35:12.167 --> 00:35:14.567
but spears can be sharp, which is.
00:35:14.967 --> 00:35:16.917
Very sound logic and fuck yeah.
00:35:16.917 --> 00:35:19.347
How did I not pick up on the
mammoth element from earlier?
00:35:19.347 --> 00:35:20.967
Fuck, that's just staring
me right in the face.
00:35:21.207 --> 00:35:24.301
I'd like to think I'd have caught
that on a rewatch, but who knows?
00:35:24.701 --> 00:35:30.471
And Galvez gets hurt and twist his ankle
and even though he, again, he can just
00:35:30.471 --> 00:35:35.131
fucking hop on one leg, it's right around
the fucking corner, let 'em all out.
00:35:35.531 --> 00:35:37.361
He just kind of rests, takes a breather.
00:35:37.451 --> 00:35:41.581
So, ghost Saaris comes and
opens the door, which I like.
00:35:41.586 --> 00:35:45.061
I love Ghost cuz Saaris, that
was a really nice moment.
00:35:45.461 --> 00:35:46.811
Jeremy: It's so interesting
that we never see him.
00:35:47.211 --> 00:35:52.721
Like we just see like the sort of
same elements we've seen of, you
00:35:52.721 --> 00:35:57.601
know, The the Dead Ghost before is
like, oh, you see enough of 'em to
00:35:57.601 --> 00:35:59.461
be like, that person is not alive.
00:35:59.861 --> 00:36:00.301
Susan: Right.
00:36:00.301 --> 00:36:02.941
I guess we just see the silhouette
of him at the end, right.
00:36:03.341 --> 00:36:06.936
Ben: Yeah, you see like his shoulder
and like flies and like his his
00:36:06.936 --> 00:36:10.096
handkerchief, you can tell where
his ghost is cuz handkerchiefs.
00:36:10.496 --> 00:36:13.556
And yeah, so pretty much like when
they can't find the gold, the two
00:36:13.556 --> 00:36:18.449
henchmen are like, Hey, you're
a weirdo, creepy loser orphan.
00:36:18.796 --> 00:36:20.196
after you stabbed your girlfriend.
00:36:20.196 --> 00:36:22.926
And then told us that like, oh, and
there's the whole scene where they're
00:36:22.931 --> 00:36:26.626
showing where he is like showing
his, the hench guys his baby photos
00:36:27.196 --> 00:36:29.176
and they could not be less into it
00:36:29.576 --> 00:36:30.066
Susan: Yeah.
00:36:30.191 --> 00:36:32.051
Ben: they just fucking bounce on him.
00:36:32.321 --> 00:36:37.061
Really just leaving Jacinto to get,
as we mentioned, sped by a bunch of
00:36:37.061 --> 00:36:43.005
small children and then drown, choked
by a ghost, which yeah, honestly a
00:36:43.010 --> 00:36:44.734
faith that was completely deserved.
00:36:44.949 --> 00:36:47.599
Jeremy: He does, he Does,
find the gold, which ends up
00:36:47.604 --> 00:36:49.059
being part of what kills him.
00:36:49.309 --> 00:36:49.669
Ivy: Yeah.
00:36:49.729 --> 00:36:50.599
It weighs him down.
00:36:51.184 --> 00:36:51.514
Susan: Yep.
00:36:51.514 --> 00:36:52.024
That's the best
00:36:52.204 --> 00:36:56.374
Ben: Ah, that is dramatic irony.
00:36:56.674 --> 00:36:57.634
I think
00:36:58.034 --> 00:37:02.204
Jeremy: Yeah, the, the, gold is an Alma's
leg, which she sort of tells us earlier.
00:37:02.204 --> 00:37:04.424
She is talking about
how heavy her leg feels.
00:37:04.934 --> 00:37:10.512
Um, and then, he, he finds it just before
the bad get, before the buffoons take off.
00:37:10.512 --> 00:37:13.662
And uh, he's like, well, I'm just
gonna tie this around my belt
00:37:13.662 --> 00:37:15.072
and stuff, my pockets with it.
00:37:15.472 --> 00:37:18.232
And then he ends up in
a large thing of water.
00:37:18.582 --> 00:37:21.022
Ben: I loved the reveal
though, in the leg.
00:37:21.422 --> 00:37:25.837
Because like they'd done such a good
job establishing Carmen's emotional
00:37:25.837 --> 00:37:31.177
relationship to this prosthetic leg
and her feelings of it that in this
00:37:31.177 --> 00:37:35.827
moment of great emotional turmoil and
stress, she says it's heavier than ever.
00:37:36.217 --> 00:37:40.237
I didn't think about it that, but then
when you get the reveal that she hid
00:37:40.237 --> 00:37:44.227
the golden there, and you think back to
that, I'm just like, fucking Del Toro.
00:37:44.227 --> 00:37:45.637
You did it again.
00:37:47.347 --> 00:37:48.997
Susan: There's nothing
that he doesn't tell us.
00:37:48.997 --> 00:37:51.997
Like he, he plays so fair the whole time.
00:37:52.447 --> 00:37:55.987
You know, you even had the histo
with Conchita way early in the
00:37:55.987 --> 00:37:59.977
movie, talking about how someday
he's gonna come blow this place up,
00:38:00.377 --> 00:38:00.557
Ivy: Yeah.
00:38:00.767 --> 00:38:04.077
Susan: you know, his feelings about
this orphanage, then he does it.
00:38:04.617 --> 00:38:09.327
Ben: Del Toro managed to make a
fucking cigar ring into an object
00:38:09.327 --> 00:38:16.667
of an that of such emotional
weight that Jaime's murderous rage.
00:38:17.232 --> 00:38:20.382
Was so sympathetic and
understood by the audience.
00:38:20.382 --> 00:38:21.432
And you're with him.
00:38:21.832 --> 00:38:22.702
This is a good move.
00:38:23.002 --> 00:38:26.662
Alright, so they all die and then
the orphans go to town to find help.
00:38:26.922 --> 00:38:29.682
The end to the worst recap I've ever done.
00:38:29.682 --> 00:38:30.606
I'm sorry.
00:38:30.866 --> 00:38:31.316
Jeremy: Nah.
00:38:31.436 --> 00:38:32.576
It was, it was good.
00:38:32.656 --> 00:38:37.186
It's a hard movie to recap because
so much of it is like just character
00:38:37.186 --> 00:38:41.836
building and this like just being in
this enclosed space where like they can't
00:38:41.836 --> 00:38:46.396
go out, they're a day and a half walk
from anything, and it's a war out there.
00:38:46.546 --> 00:38:51.596
Like, you know, they're all sort of
locked in here, boiling up the whole time.
00:38:51.996 --> 00:38:53.526
Ben: it's great use of setting.
00:38:53.926 --> 00:38:55.796
I mean, just the background of the war.
00:38:55.842 --> 00:38:59.079
This orphanage, this small
amount of people, and then the
00:38:59.084 --> 00:39:00.939
fucking bomb in the courtyard.
00:39:01.389 --> 00:39:05.082
I mean, it's, the movie excels
at location and atmosphere.
00:39:05.817 --> 00:39:07.887
Like character through location.
00:39:08.287 --> 00:39:13.441
Ivy: Del Toro has talked about and I, I
think it's really interesting how layered
00:39:13.441 --> 00:39:15.151
this is throughout the characterization.
00:39:15.151 --> 00:39:19.461
Also the setting where he talks
about how he felt that, you know,
00:39:19.461 --> 00:39:24.321
the Anti-fascists in the Spanish
Civil War felt abandoned by Europe.
00:39:24.321 --> 00:39:24.471
Right.
00:39:24.471 --> 00:39:28.251
And you hear them talk about that
when Zara and Carmen are like, maybe,
00:39:28.251 --> 00:39:29.601
you know, someone will come help us.
00:39:29.601 --> 00:39:30.951
And they're like, no
one's coming to help us.
00:39:31.251 --> 00:39:32.901
You know, they felt abandoned.
00:39:32.901 --> 00:39:36.531
And then you have an orphanage, like
a literal metaphor for abandonment
00:39:36.531 --> 00:39:38.571
in some, you know, in some ways.
00:39:38.571 --> 00:39:42.901
And it's this very isolating,
abandoned thing that's then
00:39:43.021 --> 00:39:44.461
reflected throughout the characters.
00:39:44.461 --> 00:39:49.141
You know, Heto feels used and
abandoned, like Santi feels abandoned.
00:39:49.141 --> 00:39:53.251
Like it's this very echoing theme
throughout it, which is part
00:39:53.251 --> 00:39:55.651
of what makes it such a bummer.
00:39:55.977 --> 00:39:57.957
Ben: It's not a happy movie.
00:39:58.357 --> 00:39:58.707
Ivy: No.
00:39:59.147 --> 00:40:02.147
Ben: I mean, I love, like, let's
Carmen's taunt a prince without a
00:40:02.147 --> 00:40:04.667
kingdom that she taunts, Jacinto with.
00:40:04.877 --> 00:40:05.297
Ivy: Yeah.
00:40:05.437 --> 00:40:08.977
Ben: I mean, she, she calls him
the saddest orphan of them all.
00:40:09.234 --> 00:40:09.564
Ivy: Yeah.
00:40:10.754 --> 00:40:14.484
Jeremy: Which is true, it's true, but
00:40:14.784 --> 00:40:15.174
Ben: Yeah.
00:40:16.074 --> 00:40:19.104
Like imagine looking someone
in the eye and going, you, you
00:40:19.104 --> 00:40:21.234
are the loneliest boyfriend.
00:40:21.634 --> 00:40:25.094
Batman had Alfred, but you nobody.
00:40:25.494 --> 00:40:27.464
Susan: I think it's that sense
of it, it's the way that they're
00:40:27.674 --> 00:40:30.794
juxtaposing his experience of
being a boy in the orphanage.
00:40:30.794 --> 00:40:32.504
And Carlos's, right?
00:40:32.894 --> 00:40:36.314
Where Carlos finds his community,
he finds his band of boys.
00:40:36.314 --> 00:40:40.754
And, and even Jaime has ultimately
that group, you know, he has
00:40:40.754 --> 00:40:42.524
Carlos's acceptance in the end.
00:40:42.529 --> 00:40:46.184
And, you know, he has his
little, you know, bully friends.
00:40:46.544 --> 00:40:50.054
And then there's this one kid, this
heto, who could just never make
00:40:50.054 --> 00:40:51.914
a connection with anyone really.
00:40:52.334 --> 00:40:54.074
And just the, the cost of that.
00:40:54.074 --> 00:40:57.044
And just like, that's, that's for
me, like I felt so much compassion
00:40:57.344 --> 00:41:00.164
for Heto, like right up until
he started killing children.
00:41:00.164 --> 00:41:02.204
And then I was like, not so much.
00:41:02.444 --> 00:41:06.174
Ben: I mean, remind me of that, you
know, proverb, like the, you know, the
00:41:06.174 --> 00:41:11.124
child not, you know, something, I'm,
I'm utterly mangling it, but you know,
00:41:11.124 --> 00:41:15.514
something about like the, you know, the
child who's not warmed by the fire of the
00:41:15.514 --> 00:41:17.644
village will burn it down for the heat.
00:41:18.219 --> 00:41:18.539
Ivy: Mm-hmm.
00:41:18.939 --> 00:41:22.189
Ben: You know, something about if a
community doesn't take care of its
00:41:22.189 --> 00:41:24.619
own, its abandoned, can destroy it.
00:41:25.839 --> 00:41:27.259
I'm mangling the idiom.
00:41:27.949 --> 00:41:29.259
Susan: I, thought you just made
it up, but I thought it was
00:41:29.429 --> 00:41:30.159
Ivy: That's it.
00:41:30.159 --> 00:41:31.799
It's applicable either way.
00:41:32.424 --> 00:41:34.104
Jeremy: yeah, works.
00:41:34.854 --> 00:41:37.854
I, I think it's interesting the, the
different parallels in this movie
00:41:37.854 --> 00:41:41.954
because one that go Deltoro has
talked about is that all of the heroic
00:41:41.954 --> 00:41:47.597
characters in this movie uh, are sea
names Carmen, Casares, Carlos Conchita
00:41:47.977 --> 00:41:50.317
and there's two that are j names.
00:41:50.317 --> 00:41:53.557
There's Jacinto and Jaime, and
they're, they're names, they're
00:41:53.957 --> 00:41:56.697
characters who are bullies.
00:41:56.787 --> 00:41:59.937
And Jaime chooses to change
and Jacinto does not.
00:42:00.087 --> 00:42:04.287
And I, I think that is an interesting
comparison of, of those two is like,
00:42:04.537 --> 00:42:10.342
I think Jaime could be Jacinto but
he, he chooses not to be, he chooses,
00:42:10.672 --> 00:42:12.472
you know, to care about people.
00:42:12.663 --> 00:42:16.569
Ben: Jacinto is, what Jaime would've
been if hadn't brought comic books with.
00:42:18.084 --> 00:42:19.644
Ivy: the power of comics.
00:42:20.184 --> 00:42:20.424
Ben: Like
00:42:22.192 --> 00:42:24.489
Ivy: But I think there is like,
one of the things in this, and
00:42:24.489 --> 00:42:29.749
also in Pans Labyrinth, there's
this like fantasy of choice, right?
00:42:29.839 --> 00:42:35.599
Like, they are in a situation where
they have no choices in both of
00:42:35.604 --> 00:42:39.409
those movies, you know, the war, the
Spanish, civil War, these are children.
00:42:39.409 --> 00:42:40.879
They have no effect on this.
00:42:40.879 --> 00:42:45.749
And so there's this, like, the
fairytale aspect of them both
00:42:45.749 --> 00:42:47.639
is kind of this choice, right?
00:42:47.639 --> 00:42:51.149
You know, Jaime makes this choice to
change and like, you know, there's
00:42:51.149 --> 00:42:56.409
this choice to stab this guy to death
and try to find your own way out,
00:42:56.409 --> 00:43:00.319
even though that's like completely
doesn't make any sense, you know?
00:43:01.999 --> 00:43:06.199
You know, there's a choice to help
Santi rather than be afraid of him.
00:43:06.409 --> 00:43:10.639
Like I think that's something that's
really beautiful about the way he portrays
00:43:10.639 --> 00:43:15.149
children, is he gives them a lot of agency
and a lot of ability to make choices.
00:43:15.589 --> 00:43:18.079
And I think that's also
something you don't see a lot
00:43:18.079 --> 00:43:19.519
in narratives about children.
00:43:19.679 --> 00:43:22.049
And I think that more things should have
00:43:22.449 --> 00:43:25.389
Susan: Anybody else think about the
Lord of the Flies when they're standing
00:43:25.389 --> 00:43:27.939
there and they're making the spears
and they're standing there with the
00:43:28.209 --> 00:43:28.719
Ivy: totally.
00:43:30.029 --> 00:43:30.229
Susan: thing,
00:43:30.234 --> 00:43:31.539
the thing that struck me about that is
00:43:31.764 --> 00:43:34.194
Ben: oh, fucking are any
of these kids named Simon?
00:43:34.314 --> 00:43:34.494
Someone?
00:43:34.959 --> 00:43:35.979
Susan: right, right.
00:43:35.979 --> 00:43:38.929
We, we know there's a pig out there,
but but the thing is, they, they're
00:43:38.929 --> 00:43:42.109
not, I mean, yeah, sure they do stab
the guy to death, but it is kind of
00:43:42.109 --> 00:43:46.619
in self-defense and they don't, they
don't become the savages that, you
00:43:46.619 --> 00:43:50.299
know, the kids in the Lord of the flies
become like they don't turn on each.
00:43:50.699 --> 00:43:54.209
And they do defend themselves
against the one monster.
00:43:54.609 --> 00:43:58.979
Ben: yeah, I think, I think part of
that is just icon is iconography.
00:43:59.249 --> 00:44:05.819
Like I think the idea of a group of
school age boys together with no adults
00:44:05.819 --> 00:44:09.969
armed with spears, it's hard to see
that and not thank Lord of the Flies.
00:44:10.229 --> 00:44:11.429
it's the mammoth metaphor.
00:44:11.712 --> 00:44:16.372
it is a group of weak individuals
forming a tribe together with
00:44:16.372 --> 00:44:18.752
which they can defeat a monster or
00:44:18.757 --> 00:44:18.932
a
00:44:19.272 --> 00:44:22.452
Susan: says when she's teaching them
about the mammoth, when she's teaching
00:44:22.457 --> 00:44:24.552
them about the mammoth in class?
00:44:24.552 --> 00:44:25.602
She says something, doesn't she?
00:44:25.602 --> 00:44:26.722
About about
00:44:26.932 --> 00:44:27.322
no one
00:44:27.322 --> 00:44:27.502
could.
00:44:28.292 --> 00:44:29.522
Yeah, nobody could give up.
00:44:30.122 --> 00:44:30.902
Is that what she says?
00:44:31.227 --> 00:44:31.442
Jeremy: Yeah.
00:44:31.842 --> 00:44:32.622
Susan: No, I just thought of that.
00:44:33.022 --> 00:44:33.562
Jesus
00:44:33.682 --> 00:44:35.302
Jeremy: Yeah, it's, it's, interesting
00:44:35.302 --> 00:44:35.602
because.
00:44:35.632 --> 00:44:36.052
Ben: movie.
00:44:36.452 --> 00:44:39.302
Jeremy: You know, I, I did also think
of Lord of the Flies, but the other
00:44:39.302 --> 00:44:42.432
thing that I keep thinking is like,
the initial setup for this movie is
00:44:42.432 --> 00:44:44.142
the same as The Chronicles of Narnia.
00:44:44.362 --> 00:44:48.036
That like, there's a war going on and
they're being shipped off to somewhere
00:44:48.036 --> 00:44:50.616
else to be safe during the war.
00:44:50.946 --> 00:44:54.636
And then they encounter weird,
magical elements at that place.
00:44:54.866 --> 00:44:57.326
Not nearly as much fun
as Chronicles of Narnia.
00:44:57.699 --> 00:45:01.099
Uh, It's much more, starving
and uh, being killed.
00:45:01.459 --> 00:45:05.299
But, you know, it is sort of the
same like, you know, en encountering
00:45:05.299 --> 00:45:09.382
this magical world when you're,
you're shipped off because the
00:45:09.382 --> 00:45:10.932
adults are ruining everyth.
00:45:11.332 --> 00:45:12.302
Susan: I have, I have a question.
00:45:12.302 --> 00:45:13.702
Maybe you guys can answer it for me.
00:45:14.092 --> 00:45:15.712
What were the grains of strength?
00:45:16.112 --> 00:45:17.822
You know, Canta would give
them that little thing.
00:45:17.822 --> 00:45:20.342
It looked like communion and
she'd say grain of strength.
00:45:20.342 --> 00:45:21.152
Grain of strength.
00:45:21.692 --> 00:45:24.542
I could never figure out what
it was she was giving them
00:45:24.942 --> 00:45:25.692
Ivy: I don't know.
00:45:25.692 --> 00:45:31.409
So part of what I think is interesting,
and I wonder if this hits different
00:45:31.409 --> 00:45:33.549
if you're not an escaped Catholic,
00:45:34.599 --> 00:45:35.019
Ben: Yeah, I-
00:45:35.469 --> 00:45:36.369
Ivy: but um.
00:45:36.492 --> 00:45:38.772
Ben: Maybe this is the Jewish
in me, but I just saw that
00:45:38.772 --> 00:45:40.072
and I'm like, ah, goyim shit.
00:45:41.632 --> 00:45:42.252
Goyim.
00:45:42.622 --> 00:45:43.912
Well, I, I don't need to know,
00:45:44.872 --> 00:45:48.862
Susan: kinda anti-Catholic, like they've
hidden the crucifix, they've, they've
00:45:48.862 --> 00:45:52.282
rejected it and then they bring it
back out cuz they know the fascists who
00:45:52.282 --> 00:45:53.842
are the Catholics are gonna show up.
00:45:53.902 --> 00:45:54.802
Ivy: Exactly.
00:45:54.832 --> 00:45:59.002
So I do, I wonder if it is that, if
it's posing, you know, if it's part of.
00:46:00.517 --> 00:46:04.337
Or just adopting the iconography
of Catholicism since they're in
00:46:04.342 --> 00:46:06.937
this weird fake Catholic situation.
00:46:06.937 --> 00:46:07.447
I don't know.
00:46:07.447 --> 00:46:10.855
I've never, in my brain, I
just went, oh, it's communion.
00:46:11.786 --> 00:46:15.686
Ben: That's kind of what my brain went
to, but No, you're, you're totally right.
00:46:15.686 --> 00:46:19.246
These are, they're like atheists probably.
00:46:20.786 --> 00:46:22.046
What the fuck was that?
00:46:22.046 --> 00:46:24.386
Goddamn, that's a great question.
00:46:24.786 --> 00:46:25.296
Shit,
00:46:25.851 --> 00:46:30.261
Jeremy: Okay, so, uh, Guillermo del Toro
has answered this question on Twitter.
00:46:30.517 --> 00:46:31.177
Um,
00:46:31.287 --> 00:46:31.732
Ben: Nevermind.
00:46:31.732 --> 00:46:32.122
We're gonna get
00:46:32.257 --> 00:46:32.677
Jeremy: it is
00:46:32.802 --> 00:46:32.882
Susan: right.
00:46:32.992 --> 00:46:33.642
Thank God.
00:46:34.510 --> 00:46:37.570
Jeremy: um, But one grain per
kid was given for breakfast,
00:46:37.835 --> 00:46:38.105
so,
00:46:38.930 --> 00:46:39.920
Susan: Like a little coffee bee.
00:46:40.235 --> 00:46:42.155
Jeremy: it's a little grain of coffee.
00:46:42.620 --> 00:46:45.470
Ivy: Hey, green of strength,
I, I also feel that
00:46:45.770 --> 00:46:46.130
Ben: Yeah,
00:46:46.130 --> 00:46:47.180
Ivy: grain of strength to me.
00:46:47.270 --> 00:46:47.750
Ben: makes sense.
00:46:47.750 --> 00:46:52.130
Like we, we don't, we don't have, we
don't have Jesus, but we do have coffee.
00:46:53.900 --> 00:46:56.703
That's the, the gift of
the mind that checks out.
00:46:57.178 --> 00:46:57.598
Susan: Yep.
00:46:57.813 --> 00:46:58.423
Love it.
00:46:58.568 --> 00:47:01.792
Ben: So, what else do we have to
say about, do we have any other
00:47:01.792 --> 00:47:05.572
particular moments or themes we
wanna discuss or should we kind of,
00:47:05.572 --> 00:47:09.352
uh, start steering in towards our
uh, final discussion topics there?
00:47:09.637 --> 00:47:12.526
Jeremy: I, I did wanna talk about uh,
we've talked about it to some extent
00:47:12.526 --> 00:47:16.588
already, but I think this movie uh,
does a great job of, for a limited
00:47:16.593 --> 00:47:22.348
female cast being pretty feminist, like
the two female characters who are of
00:47:22.348 --> 00:47:29.188
concern in this story, like are both
very well represented and deep charact.
00:47:29.973 --> 00:47:34.543
And, you know, as much of a, as much
of a hero as there is in this film.
00:47:34.633 --> 00:47:40.083
Like they're, they're both, I mean, Kinta
despite being, you know, older than most
00:47:40.083 --> 00:47:41.733
of them there, but still pretty young.
00:47:41.733 --> 00:47:48.693
And you know, should, she would be pretty
e even if her ex-boyfriend wasn't driving
00:47:48.693 --> 00:47:52.703
around in a Jeep trying to murder her,
she would still be pretty vulnerable
00:47:52.703 --> 00:47:54.533
out there in the desert by herself.
00:47:54.933 --> 00:47:59.553
But she, you know, takes it on
herself to be a g and go out there
00:47:59.553 --> 00:48:03.043
and like, walk a day and a half to
try and get, you know, the rest of
00:48:03.043 --> 00:48:04.453
these kids, some kind of rescue.
00:48:04.853 --> 00:48:09.763
She, you know, she is also the only
one who, until the spears come out,
00:48:09.763 --> 00:48:14.323
puts a, puts a dent in Jacinto, he
does shoot him right in the shoulder
00:48:14.723 --> 00:48:18.623
Susan: I like the way that they start
out with both Carmen and Conchita as
00:48:18.623 --> 00:48:24.313
being kind of stereotypical, you know,
Carmen's sort of the severe you know,
00:48:25.348 --> 00:48:29.548
Orphanage matron, you know, she appears
to be sort of unloving and, and tough.
00:48:29.828 --> 00:48:32.858
And then Kinta just seems to be sort
of the demure, as you pointed out
00:48:32.858 --> 00:48:38.738
earlier, like the lover of Heto,
just this sort of wimpy kind of gal.
00:48:39.128 --> 00:48:45.778
And then we see them, you know, kind of
more deeply as the, the film goes on.
00:48:46.108 --> 00:48:49.138
And we see, you know, Carmen
as a fairly complex person.
00:48:49.478 --> 00:48:51.218
We see her as a sexual person.
00:48:51.518 --> 00:48:56.768
We see her as, you know, this very
conflicted, you know, emotional
00:48:56.768 --> 00:48:59.828
person that is very different from the
person we meet at the very beginning.
00:49:00.278 --> 00:49:04.238
And, you know, and I think Conchita,
one of the things I love about that
00:49:04.238 --> 00:49:09.008
last scene with Histo is that she's
specifically refusing to apologize.
00:49:09.208 --> 00:49:13.068
Like there's that, that, that way
that women are constantly having to
00:49:13.068 --> 00:49:18.198
apologize to men for men's bad behavior,
and she's just not gonna have it.
00:49:18.198 --> 00:49:20.298
Like, that's the thing
she's refusing to do.
00:49:20.598 --> 00:49:24.348
That's why he stabs her because
he, he, she will not kneel to him.
00:49:24.768 --> 00:49:26.268
And I just thought that
was super powerful.
00:49:26.668 --> 00:49:31.498
Ben: I mean, there's a lot to, I mean,
he says you're making a fool out of me.
00:49:32.458 --> 00:49:34.348
And that warrants death in his mind.
00:49:35.178 --> 00:49:35.598
You,
00:49:35.643 --> 00:49:37.993
Jeremy: He's worried about looking
like a fool in front of the.
00:49:38.008 --> 00:49:38.428
Ben: Lauren's
00:49:38.803 --> 00:49:39.413
Susan: Mm-hmm.
00:49:40.258 --> 00:49:41.548
Ivy: A guy named the Pig.
00:49:42.358 --> 00:49:46.078
Ben: how, how dare you, me look
bad in front of like these two
00:49:46.668 --> 00:49:49.008
got gotta look good for my brows.
00:49:49.408 --> 00:49:49.858
Ivy: Yeah.
00:49:49.918 --> 00:49:52.665
It's funny cuz I didn't wanna
like the lead with this in
00:49:52.665 --> 00:49:53.925
case anybody didn't like it.
00:49:53.925 --> 00:49:56.505
This is my favorite movie
ever made by humans.
00:49:57.040 --> 00:49:58.323
Um, And
00:49:58.833 --> 00:50:00.423
uh, It's a good.
00:50:00.423 --> 00:50:01.653
it's a pretty good movie.
00:50:01.776 --> 00:50:05.736
So the first time I made my
now husband watch it, when we
00:50:05.736 --> 00:50:07.296
finished it, he was like, wow.
00:50:07.386 --> 00:50:11.406
I was like, yeah, we were both, he was
like, it's about toxic masculinity.
00:50:11.406 --> 00:50:15.471
And I was like, Somewhat, but it's true.
00:50:15.471 --> 00:50:21.031
I mean, hen does represent this
like toxic male machos thing and
00:50:21.031 --> 00:50:22.471
it's, again, it's that choice.
00:50:22.471 --> 00:50:27.811
Like he's chosen to forsake
anything that goes against that.
00:50:28.111 --> 00:50:32.491
This is what he thinks he needs to
do to survive in this world that
00:50:32.751 --> 00:50:35.821
they're in, which we know is a
choice that people make in real life
00:50:35.821 --> 00:50:37.621
when they lean into that stuff too.
00:50:38.011 --> 00:50:38.521
You know?
00:50:38.631 --> 00:50:38.961
I don't know.
00:50:38.961 --> 00:50:44.161
He's got so much depth as a villain,
even though he is also kind of a picture.
00:50:44.161 --> 00:50:48.061
Perfect example of Yeah, like that
toxic masculine, like, you're not gonna
00:50:48.061 --> 00:50:50.255
make me look bad in front of the pig
00:50:50.865 --> 00:50:51.718
woman.
00:50:51.785 --> 00:50:54.725
Susan: I mean, I think it's also
interesting that Histo is like almost
00:50:54.725 --> 00:50:56.795
the most beautiful character in the film.
00:50:56.795 --> 00:51:00.015
I mean, he's just a
very, very beautiful man.
00:51:00.015 --> 00:51:03.015
And I just think that what
they're playing with in terms of
00:51:03.015 --> 00:51:04.425
like, he's not an ugly villain.
00:51:04.425 --> 00:51:07.185
He's not, you know, a
scarred you know, guy.
00:51:07.185 --> 00:51:11.940
He's, he represents the sort of, That
sort of beautiful man who should have
00:51:11.970 --> 00:51:16.050
everything, and yet he's a pathetic loser
and he can't manage to get anything.
00:51:16.320 --> 00:51:17.490
Ivy: prince without a Kingdom.
00:51:17.890 --> 00:51:20.650
Jeremy: Yeah, he almost seems to
have a sort of like resentment
00:51:20.650 --> 00:51:22.510
that he's not out there in the war.
00:51:22.900 --> 00:51:24.760
Like he's bringing the war here.
00:51:24.760 --> 00:51:28.960
He's finding people to fight despite
the fact that like he is in this one
00:51:28.960 --> 00:51:33.040
place that like, to this point has
more or less been spared from the war.
00:51:33.045 --> 00:51:37.330
Like to the point of almost magical
happenings that, you know, that bomb
00:51:37.330 --> 00:51:41.145
falls in the middle of the orphanage
and does not blow up is a miracle.
00:51:41.585 --> 00:51:42.785
And like he.
00:51:44.260 --> 00:51:48.540
Determined to bring that sort of
destruction to this place just because he
00:51:48.540 --> 00:51:52.590
can't, he, he doesn't rule it, you know,
he can't have whatever he wants here.
00:51:53.130 --> 00:51:53.370
Ivy: Yeah.
00:51:53.770 --> 00:51:54.160
Jeremy: I don't know.
00:51:54.610 --> 00:51:56.050
It's, it's really interesting.
00:51:56.120 --> 00:52:01.200
And yeah, it, the way it deals
with masculinity and toxic versions
00:52:01.200 --> 00:52:05.050
of masculinity in particular
is very fascinating to me.
00:52:05.590 --> 00:52:08.080
Ivy: And e even Zara kind of
is in that though, like we
00:52:08.080 --> 00:52:09.160
were talking about earlier.
00:52:09.160 --> 00:52:10.493
Like he's drinking.
00:52:11.025 --> 00:52:17.201
Baby punch, to cure his impotence, you
know, because I think that, you know, he
00:52:17.201 --> 00:52:24.201
feels he can't be man enough, for Carmen,
like throughout and then you see the boys
00:52:24.681 --> 00:52:26.591
being tender and supportive of each other.
00:52:26.931 --> 00:52:30.141
You know, it gives a lot of different
nuanced pictures of masculinity, I think.
00:52:30.541 --> 00:52:34.211
Susan: You guys think about the sort
of male testing of each other that the
00:52:34.211 --> 00:52:38.641
boys do of, you know, when Carlos is
coming back with a picture of water and
00:52:38.641 --> 00:52:42.575
the, the boys have got the slingshots
at him and, Jaime's basically, pranking
00:52:42.575 --> 00:52:44.645
him when they go to get the water.
00:52:44.645 --> 00:52:49.855
And this idea of, boys or men making
each other, prove something in order
00:52:49.855 --> 00:52:54.001
to be part of the team in order to
like, be worthy of your companionship.
00:52:54.401 --> 00:52:57.971
I mean, how does that fit into the
whole toxic masculinity analysis?
00:52:58.371 --> 00:52:58.782
Jeremy: I don't know.
00:52:58.787 --> 00:53:04.121
They, they seem to, they seem to initially
have, I mean obviously Jaime is sort of
00:53:04.121 --> 00:53:07.391
the linger ringleader in this, that some
of the other kids wouldn't, wouldn't
00:53:07.396 --> 00:53:09.581
be doing this if it weren't for him.
00:53:09.891 --> 00:53:13.398
And, you know, they sort of fall in behind
him because he's the big, tough kid.
00:53:13.458 --> 00:53:17.016
Especially I guess since Santi
died, He has made himself tougher.
00:53:17.436 --> 00:53:17.886
But
00:53:17.886 --> 00:53:18.306
I,
00:53:18.351 --> 00:53:19.101
Ben: taller.
00:53:19.611 --> 00:53:21.921
He, he still looks like a stiff
breeze, can knock him over.
00:53:22.836 --> 00:53:24.966
Jeremy: I mean that's mostly
cuz it would catch his ears.
00:53:25.290 --> 00:53:30.703
I, it was, it was striking me how this kid
who is essentially the villain and this
00:53:31.033 --> 00:53:37.670
looks very much like a kid who might be
cast as a weak kid in, in another movie.
00:53:37.998 --> 00:53:38.560
I don't know.
00:53:38.590 --> 00:53:40.340
He reminds me of somebody.
00:53:41.130 --> 00:53:44.520
Ben: he rules by literally
towering over all the other kids.
00:53:44.590 --> 00:53:46.690
Like he has a full head
on a lot of these kids.
00:53:46.690 --> 00:53:47.410
He is so much
00:53:47.770 --> 00:53:48.130
Jeremy: Yeah.
00:53:48.256 --> 00:53:51.106
Susan: And they all, they all think he
had something to do with Santi's death.
00:53:51.856 --> 00:53:54.153
They're, they're scared of him because
they think he had something to do with
00:53:54.153 --> 00:53:56.443
Santi's death that helped, that helps his
00:53:56.713 --> 00:53:57.013
Ben: Which,
00:53:57.733 --> 00:54:01.783
I mean, the, the movie does play
it like you're not sure, like when
00:54:01.783 --> 00:54:06.553
Carlos looks through his notebook and
finds the drawing of Santi of San.
00:54:07.408 --> 00:54:12.315
With the head wound, like it's
an effective misdirect or mystery
00:54:12.315 --> 00:54:16.345
to the movie as to what happened
to Santi, who really did it.
00:54:16.615 --> 00:54:20.718
As it turns out, it's the person
you'd most likely suspect, but they
00:54:20.718 --> 00:54:22.578
do do a good job throwing some mrx.
00:54:22.978 --> 00:54:25.098
Susan: And they've already
showed you at the very beginning.
00:54:25.098 --> 00:54:25.548
Right.
00:54:25.658 --> 00:54:29.858
You know, Jaime with the boy, you know,
on, on the ground, like, and running away.
00:54:29.858 --> 00:54:33.608
So you, you think you've already seen
the scene where he's killed the kid.
00:54:34.008 --> 00:54:34.338
Right.
00:54:34.338 --> 00:54:35.911
And then later we see the, pictures.
00:54:35.911 --> 00:54:38.641
So that just reinforced what we
think we've already been told.
00:54:39.041 --> 00:54:39.401
Jeremy: yeah,
00:54:39.601 --> 00:54:40.436
Susan: we're all scared of him too.
00:54:40.836 --> 00:54:40.956
Jeremy: yeah.
00:54:40.961 --> 00:54:44.823
I think, I think who it is that Jaime
reminds me of is Neville Longbottom.
00:54:44.828 --> 00:54:45.503
He just kind of looks.
00:54:46.218 --> 00:54:46.958
Susan: Oh yeah.
00:54:47.453 --> 00:54:51.803
Jeremy: I mean, even Neville is, you know,
sort of the, the dork of that group who's,
00:54:51.833 --> 00:54:56.786
you know, clumsy and, and bad at magic is
like he's still taller and has the same
00:54:56.786 --> 00:54:58.736
sort of ears that, that this kid does.
00:54:59.156 --> 00:55:04.923
But yeah, I think like that reaction
to Carlos, I, I don't know if it's more
00:55:04.923 --> 00:55:10.136
about masculinity or if it's about class
that Carlos seems to come in thinking
00:55:10.136 --> 00:55:12.976
that he is better than these kids
at the orphanage, or at least that's
00:55:12.976 --> 00:55:17.356
the way they're reading it is, you
know, he's seeing this is a, a visit.
00:55:17.566 --> 00:55:20.786
He is with the, you know,
these guys from the loyalists.
00:55:20.786 --> 00:55:24.776
He's just, he's gonna go back out
of this and see his dad anytime now.
00:55:25.143 --> 00:55:28.203
Um, They're, you know, sort of seeing
that as him looking down on them
00:55:28.868 --> 00:55:30.908
Ben: Yeah, they they give 'em
shit about having a tutor.
00:55:31.308 --> 00:55:31.858
Susan: Oh yeah, that's,
00:55:32.245 --> 00:55:34.758
Jeremy: Yeah, it's the tutor
bit comes back a couple times.
00:55:35.158 --> 00:55:36.238
You tutor teacher that?
00:55:36.718 --> 00:55:40.703
The other section in this that's really
worth talking about is it's not a real
00:55:40.703 --> 00:55:43.193
strong movie on the L G B T front.
00:55:43.313 --> 00:55:47.343
There's not only not any sort of
representation there, Jacinto and some
00:55:47.343 --> 00:55:52.113
of the boys throw around some slurs
in there too, which are not great, but
00:55:52.723 --> 00:55:55.043
probably accurate to, to the characters.
00:55:55.153 --> 00:55:57.720
You know, that they, they
would've thrown that stuff around.
00:55:57.720 --> 00:56:01.180
But yeah, there's, there's no real
representation or anything to discuss
00:56:01.450 --> 00:56:04.670
Susan: No, unless of course we imagine
that Carlos grows up to be a gay writer.
00:56:04.890 --> 00:56:07.100
But you know, that's just me projecting.
00:56:07.710 --> 00:56:10.483
Ben: I head cannon that,
uh, Carlos takes after Dr.
00:56:10.483 --> 00:56:12.643
Casares's example and becomes a doctor.
00:56:12.930 --> 00:56:15.900
Jeremy: Oh, you know, Jaime is an artist,
so he's probably just a little gay.
00:56:15.900 --> 00:56:16.170
Right?
00:56:16.418 --> 00:56:16.868
Susan: Right.
00:56:17.723 --> 00:56:18.773
Jeremy: he's a comic book artist.
00:56:18.853 --> 00:56:19.363
Who knows?
00:56:19.800 --> 00:56:23.526
and apparently he's based on a
lot on the comic book artist that,
00:56:23.693 --> 00:56:25.223
Guillermo Del Toro likes that.
00:56:25.253 --> 00:56:26.993
I, I think we talked
about a little bit before.
00:56:27.029 --> 00:56:28.628
I think IMDB had his name.
00:56:28.628 --> 00:56:29.548
So let me grab that.
00:56:29.770 --> 00:56:33.480
Ben: I did have to laugh at the scene
where Jaime is like, I'll trade you
00:56:33.480 --> 00:56:35.970
your comic for my homemade porn.
00:56:36.150 --> 00:56:38.100
It's super realistic.
00:56:38.220 --> 00:56:42.850
And then I know this is a kid handing
in, a kid drawing, but it reminded me
00:56:42.850 --> 00:56:46.900
of the scene of, it's always sunny in
Philadelphia when Glenn Howerton is
00:56:46.900 --> 00:56:52.750
doing, like the cartoon is like drawing
just a big, you know, big sexy lady with
00:56:52.755 --> 00:56:55.120
his like stick figure cartoon drawing.
00:56:55.520 --> 00:56:59.960
Jeremy: And the, I don't know why it hit
me so funny, but I, I cracked up when
00:56:59.960 --> 00:57:03.800
he's, he's showing this and everybody's
complimenting him how good it is and
00:57:04.150 --> 00:57:05.890
is, I don't know if it's owl or Galvez.
00:57:05.890 --> 00:57:08.890
One of them is like,
yeah, the vagina sideways.
00:57:09.090 --> 00:57:10.540
Like, you got that
00:57:10.765 --> 00:57:14.460
Ben: That was- I mean, it was both
funny but also kind of, and you're
00:57:14.460 --> 00:57:16.110
like, Jaime as this character that.
00:57:16.510 --> 00:57:22.390
Does not know as much as he's pretending
to, but will not and will react with
00:57:22.466 --> 00:57:24.746
bluster and anger when called out on it.
00:57:25.146 --> 00:57:28.921
Jeremy: Yeah, so the, the um, the
cartoonist we were looking for,
00:57:28.921 --> 00:57:30.758
the name of is uh, Carlos Gimenez.
00:57:31.205 --> 00:57:37.156
And he, he wrote a comic which is somewhat
apparently about his him living in a
00:57:37.156 --> 00:57:41.906
Francoist orphanage during the early
fifties um, which I guess was a source for
00:57:41.906 --> 00:57:43.943
some of the some of the ideas for this.
00:57:43.943 --> 00:57:47.183
And then, you know, he was brought on
to storyboard for the film as well.
00:57:48.453 --> 00:57:52.683
is a great way to pay back an artist that
you've been inspired by if you know you're
00:57:52.683 --> 00:57:54.963
a, if you're a guy who's making movies,
00:57:55.363 --> 00:57:58.963
Ivy: Yeah, that's like uh, Mike
Minola Storyboarding blade too.
00:57:59.325 --> 00:57:59.815
Jeremy: Yeah,
00:58:00.210 --> 00:58:01.440
Ivy: Another G D T
00:58:02.130 --> 00:58:04.020
G D T is the only good comics fan.
00:58:04.020 --> 00:58:04.980
That's what I'm learning.
00:58:07.131 --> 00:58:10.641
Ben: well, a, as we say in this
podcast uh, the only superhero
00:58:10.641 --> 00:58:12.711
movie ever made is Venom Two.
00:58:13.901 --> 00:58:18.621
that, that's my personal policy to
avoid the discourse scarier than
00:58:18.621 --> 00:58:21.201
any horror movie we've ever watched.
00:58:21.601 --> 00:58:24.898
Jeremy: On Blade two, you know, we
have to acknowledge Blade because
00:58:24.898 --> 00:58:27.928
we talk about motherfuckers trying
to ice skate a pill so often.
00:58:27.928 --> 00:58:29.951
Ben: Yeah, we're gonna have to
talk about Blade at some point.
00:58:29.951 --> 00:58:34.458
I mean, I will say Blade is
legitimately one of my favorite movies.
00:58:34.885 --> 00:58:37.855
Jeremy: Blade two is especially good
because, you know, Guillermo del Toro.
00:58:38.305 --> 00:58:41.545
At some point we'll have to get around
to talking about his comic book movies.
00:58:41.545 --> 00:58:42.775
Between that and Hellboy,
00:58:43.100 --> 00:58:43.590
Susan: Yeah.
00:58:43.655 --> 00:58:44.255
Jeremy: talk about.
00:58:44.655 --> 00:58:45.285
Ben: Oh God.
00:58:45.285 --> 00:58:46.245
Hellboy.
00:58:46.645 --> 00:58:48.235
Especially Hellboy too.
00:58:48.635 --> 00:58:48.755
Ugh.
00:58:49.155 --> 00:58:54.325
I know it's, but the scene of Abe
and Hellboy drinking in like the
00:58:54.325 --> 00:58:59.048
library thing, talking about romance
and relationships and feelings
00:58:59.188 --> 00:59:01.548
will just always be one of my
favorite movie scenes of all time.
00:59:01.948 --> 00:59:02.068
Jeremy: Yeah.
00:59:02.068 --> 00:59:06.516
This is uh, devil's Backbone is the
only Guillermo Del Toro movie in which
00:59:06.516 --> 00:59:07.956
neither of those gentlemen appear.
00:59:07.956 --> 00:59:12.900
There is uh, no Doug Jones and
no uh, Ron Perlman in this movie.
00:59:12.945 --> 00:59:13.435
Ivy: Wild.
00:59:13.920 --> 00:59:14.130
Jeremy: Yeah.
00:59:14.130 --> 00:59:17.220
One of them is in every other
Guillermo do Toro movie.
00:59:17.620 --> 00:59:17.860
Yeah.
00:59:17.860 --> 00:59:19.060
And somehow it's still good.
00:59:19.060 --> 00:59:19.540
I don't know.
00:59:19.540 --> 00:59:20.530
Those, those guys are great.
00:59:20.981 --> 00:59:24.491
Ivy: Even without Ron Perlman,
a movie can be watchable.
00:59:24.791 --> 00:59:25.301
It turns out.
00:59:26.080 --> 00:59:28.680
Ben: I wouldn't have believed
it, but it turns out to be.
00:59:29.410 --> 00:59:29.680
Susan: Yeah.
00:59:29.830 --> 00:59:30.350
Right.
00:59:31.100 --> 00:59:34.420
Jeremy: just have to wait for the, the
remake in which, you know, we cash Perlman
00:59:34.435 --> 00:59:40.356
as Casares and I guess Doug Jones can
be Carmen, just pair the two of them up.
00:59:40.836 --> 00:59:41.406
It'd be great.
00:59:41.646 --> 00:59:46.516
So, I guess that leads to my question
uh, that we always ask, which is do you
00:59:46.516 --> 00:59:47.746
feel like this movie's worth seeing?
00:59:47.746 --> 00:59:50.356
Would you recommend it to
people listening to the podcast?
00:59:50.756 --> 00:59:51.606
Ben: Absolutely.
00:59:52.006 --> 00:59:52.396
Movies.
00:59:52.401 --> 00:59:53.236
Movies, great.
00:59:53.636 --> 00:59:56.496
Ivy: I feel like we know
my answer is a big yes.
00:59:56.586 --> 00:59:57.576
Two thumbs up.
00:59:58.086 --> 00:59:58.566
10.
00:59:58.566 --> 00:59:59.646
10 outta 10 Ivy.
00:59:59.646 --> 01:00:01.476
Score for Devil's Backbone.
01:00:02.016 --> 01:00:06.586
But don't watch it if you are worried
about seeing violence to kids,
01:00:06.636 --> 01:00:08.426
which is something that we talked.
01:00:09.016 --> 01:00:11.026
Jeremy: Yeah, that's
a, that's a big no-no.
01:00:11.031 --> 01:00:14.381
As I think we've discussed for my
wife, Alicia, is any film in which
01:00:14.381 --> 01:00:18.411
there is inherent threat or violence
to children, it's just not into it.
01:00:18.811 --> 01:00:19.021
Ivy: Yeah.
01:00:19.231 --> 01:00:20.801
Big, big warning for that one.
01:00:21.351 --> 01:00:21.841
Yeah.
01:00:22.241 --> 01:00:23.051
Susan: Yeah, there really is.
01:00:23.051 --> 01:00:26.531
I mean, this was actually my first
time watching it and I thought
01:00:26.531 --> 01:00:28.091
it was pretty freaking amazing.
01:00:28.191 --> 01:00:33.303
And um, yeah, I mean, I have to say that
I think it's I thought it was better
01:00:33.303 --> 01:00:37.563
than Pan Labyrinth, so, and I love
that movie, so I highly recommend it.
01:00:37.833 --> 01:00:40.880
I did think it was, I mean, just
cinematically, it was just a beautiful.
01:00:41.343 --> 01:00:45.933
And as a, we didn't even hardly talk about
Carlos in the coming of age aspects of it.
01:00:45.933 --> 01:00:50.470
And just for that it's, there's a certain
sweetness to it that is pretty amazing.
01:00:50.560 --> 01:00:54.860
And when the boys all leave together,
that, that to me was very redemptive of
01:00:54.920 --> 01:00:58.240
all the violence against all the other
poor dead boys in the, in the yard.
01:00:58.760 --> 01:01:00.860
Ben: it's a very uplifting mo moment.
01:01:00.860 --> 01:01:06.733
Like they've gotten in peace for
Santi, they've, slewn, slown...
01:01:07.116 --> 01:01:09.186
They, they, they killed Jacinto.
01:01:10.096 --> 01:01:13.721
And there's definitely aha moment
in my head going like, uh oh,
01:01:14.151 --> 01:01:15.221
ow will still definitely wooed.
01:01:15.821 --> 01:01:17.321
And this is a two day walk.
01:01:17.321 --> 01:01:20.471
And uhoh like, how is this
gonna turn out for little kids?
01:01:20.891 --> 01:01:24.345
But there's also the part of my brain
definitely going like, shut the fuck up.
01:01:24.615 --> 01:01:26.205
Don't, it's emotionally resonant.
01:01:26.210 --> 01:01:28.185
We're we're feeling emotionally good.
01:01:28.755 --> 01:01:31.785
Turn your fucking logic brain
off and enjoy the ending.
01:01:32.185 --> 01:01:35.235
Jeremy: Yeah, I think it's, it is
interesting in that respect, and I, I
01:01:35.235 --> 01:01:40.988
think it's supposed to be, you know, an
ending that is like, it is hopeful, but
01:01:40.988 --> 01:01:45.081
also there's a good chance that these
kids are ultimately doomed because even
01:01:45.081 --> 01:01:49.175
if they do get across this day and a
half walk to town, they're still in
01:01:49.175 --> 01:01:50.795
the middle of the Spanish Civil War.
01:01:50.891 --> 01:01:53.051
You know, the, the place
where they were safe is gone.
01:01:53.561 --> 01:01:54.061
You know,
01:01:54.306 --> 01:01:56.136
Susan: Even if they survive
the war, they're gonna live
01:01:56.136 --> 01:01:57.096
under Franco for decades.
01:01:57.496 --> 01:02:01.676
Jeremy: Yeah, they are victorious in
this moment, but there's a, there's
01:02:01.676 --> 01:02:05.070
a lot of stuff that's not gonna be
great after this, which I think is
01:02:05.070 --> 01:02:06.720
a very Guillermo del Toro moment.
01:02:06.750 --> 01:02:12.380
There's a, you know, I mean, that
is ma like, that is basically the
01:02:12.380 --> 01:02:15.890
like, climax of, I mean, not to
spoil it, but Pan's Labyrinth is
01:02:15.890 --> 01:02:17.870
like, Hey, this thing is great also.
01:02:17.875 --> 01:02:18.910
It's terrible.
01:02:19.555 --> 01:02:22.895
Um, You have a second of
being hopeful about this.
01:02:23.295 --> 01:02:24.795
well That one we're
talking about next week.
01:02:24.795 --> 01:02:28.938
So that's uh, something to look
forward to having you dream stashed.
01:02:29.252 --> 01:02:32.485
Uh, Ben, do you have anything to recommend
for people uh, coming out of this?
01:02:34.108 --> 01:02:34.978
Ben: I don't know why.
01:02:35.158 --> 01:02:37.378
I just had to think of
something really fast.
01:02:37.378 --> 01:02:40.838
Then Matilda was the first thing
that came to my head, cuz it's also
01:02:40.938 --> 01:02:45.695
kids who deserve nice things and not
enough nice things happen to them.
01:02:46.048 --> 01:02:48.418
and also supernatural
elements are in both.
01:02:48.818 --> 01:02:51.178
So also Danny DeVito.
01:02:51.378 --> 01:02:51.578
Jeremy: Yeah.
01:02:51.578 --> 01:02:52.298
Kids surviving.
01:02:52.303 --> 01:02:55.868
Despite the failure of every person
in system that's supposed to protect
01:02:55.873 --> 01:02:58.268
them, I think uh, resonates here.
01:02:58.583 --> 01:03:00.173
Ivy: Yeah, I think it's pretty apt.
01:03:00.573 --> 01:03:02.286
Ben: Yeah, right.
01:03:02.286 --> 01:03:03.906
Never a bad time to watch Matilda.
01:03:04.041 --> 01:03:04.131
Ivy: Yeah.
01:03:04.521 --> 01:03:04.911
Jeremy: Yeah.
01:03:05.150 --> 01:03:07.705
Uh, Ivy, did you have anything
you wanted to recommend?
01:03:07.878 --> 01:03:13.978
Ivy: I think that a really good like
spiritual pair to this movie is the others
01:03:14.248 --> 01:03:19.270
with Nicole Kidman which is also a very
tragic, kind of captured ghost story.
01:03:19.670 --> 01:03:23.678
If you haven't watched that one, I
think it really explores the trauma of
01:03:23.678 --> 01:03:25.968
ghosts a bit in a different direction.
01:03:25.968 --> 01:03:26.838
It's very interesting.
01:03:27.038 --> 01:03:30.128
With time and distance from it, I think
it's a much better movie than people
01:03:30.133 --> 01:03:31.358
thought it was when it first came out.
01:03:31.698 --> 01:03:34.968
And I know y'all have talked about
this on your show before, but his
01:03:34.968 --> 01:03:38.365
house would be another one that I
would recommend if you liked Devil's
01:03:38.365 --> 01:03:40.225
Backbone, like a hundred percent.
01:03:40.625 --> 01:03:44.465
And then finally I'll recommend
another one of my all time
01:03:44.465 --> 01:03:49.815
favorites, which is the 1963 version
of The Haunting by Robert Wise.
01:03:50.215 --> 01:03:53.155
Which is an adaptation of Shirley
Jackson's Haunting of Hillhouse,
01:03:53.695 --> 01:03:56.885
probably the most accurate adaptation
that's been made which is another
01:03:56.885 --> 01:04:01.205
like very interesting psychological
horror that does a lot with really
01:04:01.210 --> 01:04:04.235
beautiful, weird cinematography.
01:04:04.655 --> 01:04:07.415
Those are, those are the ones I would
say, if you like, devil's Backbone.
01:04:07.815 --> 01:04:12.135
Ben: Great picks and yeah,
we fucking loved his house.
01:04:12.210 --> 01:04:13.620
Ivy: His house was incredible.
01:04:13.710 --> 01:04:16.730
Like, it, it stuck with me for like weeks.
01:04:16.940 --> 01:04:18.500
I was thinking about that movie.
01:04:18.780 --> 01:04:21.990
Ben: I still can't fucking use a fork
without thinking about that movie.
01:04:23.142 --> 01:04:24.092
Susan: Oh, that's frightening.
01:04:24.492 --> 01:04:24.612
Jeremy: Yeah,
01:04:24.807 --> 01:04:25.167
Ben: No,
01:04:25.182 --> 01:04:25.425
Jeremy: a lot.
01:04:25.827 --> 01:04:28.427
Ben: the, the, the fork
is not part of the horror.
01:04:28.497 --> 01:04:29.267
More just.
01:04:29.667 --> 01:04:30.977
Very interesting.
01:04:30.982 --> 01:04:38.337
They just very interesting themes
of assimilation, but no, no no fork
01:04:38.337 --> 01:04:43.597
related horror, only fork related
cultural practices that make you
01:04:43.597 --> 01:04:45.157
think once made aware of them.
01:04:45.557 --> 01:04:46.367
Ivy: That movie's so good.
01:04:46.493 --> 01:04:47.093
Maybe it's time for a
01:04:47.323 --> 01:04:47.683
rewatch.
01:04:47.817 --> 01:04:49.227
Susan: I'm putting that on my list now.
01:04:49.627 --> 01:04:52.438
Jeremy: Yeah, we just talked
about that in uh, February.
01:04:52.438 --> 01:04:56.832
So anybody who is is interested in that
one, checks it out, can uh, go back
01:04:56.837 --> 01:04:58.182
and listen to that episode as well.
01:04:58.212 --> 01:05:01.282
Cuz that was, that was another
one of those that like, again, we
01:05:01.282 --> 01:05:03.442
liked so much that we were just
not even sure what to say about
01:05:04.537 --> 01:05:04.747
Ben: there.
01:05:04.752 --> 01:05:06.667
There wasn't a lot of
silliness in that one.
01:05:06.667 --> 01:05:08.947
There was a lot of like,
yep, that was good.
01:05:09.307 --> 01:05:13.207
Let's talk about how thematic and
interesting and complex that was.
01:05:13.607 --> 01:05:14.643
Jeremy: Yeah, absolutely.
01:05:14.963 --> 01:05:18.108
Ben: we, to be fair, we did
get a lot of mileage out.
01:05:18.508 --> 01:05:21.958
Matt Smith's, Rosen, creats
and Gilstone are dead movie
01:05:22.258 --> 01:05:26.068
Ivy: I was gonna say, you've gotta
have some Matt Smith, some Matt
01:05:26.073 --> 01:05:27.568
Smith bits had to present themselves.
01:05:28.108 --> 01:05:28.498
Ben: Oh Yeah.
01:05:28.498 --> 01:05:32.038
we, we, talked a lot about how this is
a very different movie when presented
01:05:32.038 --> 01:05:34.198
entirely from Matt Smith's perspective.
01:05:34.408 --> 01:05:37.738
Jeremy: the civil servant who just feels
like his life is falling apart while this,
01:05:37.738 --> 01:05:41.248
you know, these, these immigrants keep
showing up, telling him about this ghost
01:05:41.248 --> 01:05:42.598
that's in the house that he got for them.
01:05:42.598 --> 01:05:45.678
Like the scene where he is, the
guy is telling him this stuff about
01:05:45.678 --> 01:05:47.118
there being a witch in their house.
01:05:47.118 --> 01:05:50.508
And Mad Smith is clearly like,
oh, you can't see this in front
01:05:50.508 --> 01:05:52.098
of the other guys I work with.
01:05:52.098 --> 01:05:53.748
This is definitely not gonna be good.
01:05:54.288 --> 01:05:57.058
Is, it's, it's tough.
01:05:57.268 --> 01:06:02.188
Ben: Like my favorite moment in the
whole film is when Matt Smith shows
01:06:02.188 --> 01:06:05.348
up at the house at the end, and
then just like, oh no, it's fine.
01:06:05.408 --> 01:06:06.638
She killed the ghost.
01:06:07.058 --> 01:06:09.888
And Matt just has this
like, like, okay, then.
01:06:10.083 --> 01:06:10.533
Ivy: Yeah.
01:06:11.373 --> 01:06:11.883
Cool.
01:06:12.790 --> 01:06:15.710
Ben: this problem fixed itself, I guess.
01:06:16.110 --> 01:06:17.400
Oh, good movie,
01:06:17.800 --> 01:06:18.190
Jeremy: Yeah.
01:06:18.220 --> 01:06:21.760
Susan: So I think my recommendation,
if we're talking about coming
01:06:21.760 --> 01:06:26.770
of age in the middle of the war,
anti-fascist films would be Jojo Rabbit.
01:06:27.170 --> 01:06:27.560
Loved that.
01:06:27.980 --> 01:06:28.330
Um,
01:06:28.500 --> 01:06:29.400
Jeremy: seen Jojo Rabbit.
01:06:30.060 --> 01:06:35.620
Susan: very different tone and tenor,
but very much I think the same themes.
01:06:35.650 --> 01:06:37.023
Um, Love that one.
01:06:37.353 --> 01:06:41.402
Not in the horror vein, but um, we
talked about it a little bit earlier.
01:06:41.652 --> 01:06:43.152
Just started watching poker face.
01:06:43.157 --> 01:06:44.262
Am loving that.
01:06:44.412 --> 01:06:44.982
And I think it's
01:06:45.012 --> 01:06:45.732
Ben: it's so good.
01:06:46.362 --> 01:06:46.812
so
01:06:46.812 --> 01:06:47.412
fucking good.
01:06:47.812 --> 01:06:48.142
Oh yeah.
01:06:48.172 --> 01:06:50.202
Oh, we got fucking Ron Perlman!
01:06:50.632 --> 01:06:51.262
Ivy: There you go.
01:06:51.262 --> 01:06:51.842
There's your Ron Perlman.
01:06:51.862 --> 01:06:52.132
Ben: Oh.
01:06:53.782 --> 01:06:54.112
Susan: Yep.
01:06:54.807 --> 01:06:59.482
Ben: has at the least one guest star
that makes me go, oh, holy shit.
01:06:59.482 --> 01:07:00.682
They're in this episode.
01:07:01.423 --> 01:07:05.453
Jeremy: Yeah, the, I think to date my
favorite episode is the time of the
01:07:05.453 --> 01:07:12.432
monkey because Judith Light and S
Epatha Merkerson are like so good as the,
01:07:12.432 --> 01:07:17.075
like, bonded at the hip, ex hippie, you
know, quasi terrorists, like, they're
01:07:17.075 --> 01:07:17.645
so,
01:07:18.008 --> 01:07:18.368
so,
01:07:18.878 --> 01:07:20.198
Ben: that's my favorite one too.
01:07:20.248 --> 01:07:20.768
Susan: Brilliant.
01:07:21.168 --> 01:07:25.278
Jeremy: I, you know, I, I love the way
it uses the guest stars in that show in
01:07:25.278 --> 01:07:28.278
particular, that, you know, everybody
gets to play a part that you don't
01:07:28.278 --> 01:07:32.878
necessarily see them being you get to
see a very quiet, reserved Louise Guzman,
01:07:33.075 --> 01:07:33.565
Susan: Yeah.
01:07:33.615 --> 01:07:37.498
Ben: gotta say, being given a
whole episode of Tim Meadows
01:07:38.348 --> 01:07:38.838
Ivy: Yeah,
01:07:39.058 --> 01:07:40.318
Ben: gift to me personally.
01:07:41.378 --> 01:07:42.178
Ivy: absolute gift.
01:07:42.628 --> 01:07:43.648
What a treasure.
01:07:43.932 --> 01:07:48.102
Or a whole episode where you get John
Darnell from the mountain goats targeting
01:07:48.162 --> 01:07:50.502
like exactly the me demographic.
01:07:50.617 --> 01:07:51.037
Ben: Yes.
01:07:51.507 --> 01:07:54.777
Jeremy: I, I, I cheered when
John Dar showed up on screen.
01:07:54.957 --> 01:07:56.713
I was like, yes, he's here.
01:07:57.015 --> 01:07:59.915
I, I have a hard time recommending
something to go with this movie that we're
01:07:59.915 --> 01:08:03.095
not already talking about for all the,
like Guillermo do Toro stuff that we're
01:08:03.095 --> 01:08:05.225
talking about and or have talked about.
01:08:05.685 --> 01:08:12.132
But I did mention uh, that our, you know,
lead actress in this are Carmen is also a
01:08:12.132 --> 01:08:15.592
regular in several Pedro Almodovar films.
01:08:15.872 --> 01:08:19.382
It is worth noting as well that Pedro
Almodovar is an executive producer
01:08:19.382 --> 01:08:23.942
on this movie that Guillermo was
working on this movie for years.
01:08:24.332 --> 01:08:28.182
And it wasn't happening until Pedro
Almodovar watched Cronos and then
01:08:28.182 --> 01:08:30.072
asked him to produce his next film.
01:08:30.582 --> 01:08:36.612
So I think it's worth tying this
recommendation to all about my mother
01:08:36.772 --> 01:08:38.892
Pedro Almodovar's movie, which stars.
01:08:39.562 --> 01:08:44.847
Marisa Paredes in, you know, one of the
main roles and is just a fantastic movie.
01:08:44.847 --> 01:08:48.224
I, there aren't many Pedro
Almodovar movies that I don't like.
01:08:48.287 --> 01:08:52.487
But this one in particular is, is
really fantastic and has sort of that
01:08:52.614 --> 01:08:56.334
exploring the interiority of older
women, which, you know, this, this
01:08:56.334 --> 01:08:58.844
movie does, which is I think rare.
01:08:58.867 --> 01:09:02.290
And as, people go that do it, Pedro
Almodovar is really good at it.
01:09:02.680 --> 01:09:04.480
It's a hard movie to explain.
01:09:04.485 --> 01:09:08.240
So I'm just gonna read the little I
M D B caption here, which is Pedro
01:09:08.240 --> 01:09:13.700
Almodovar's Oscar-winning comedy about a
bereaved mother, an overwrought actress,
01:09:13.790 --> 01:09:15.920
her jealous lover, and a pregnant nun.
01:09:16.340 --> 01:09:18.480
Which I think gives you a feeling for the
01:09:18.680 --> 01:09:19.200
Ben: they all
01:09:19.200 --> 01:09:19.500
Jeremy: that this
01:09:19.520 --> 01:09:20.360
Ben: into a bar.
01:09:20.760 --> 01:09:21.520
Jeremy: Yeah, yeah.
01:09:21.520 --> 01:09:25.225
So if, if you haven't seen that movie,
I mean, I honestly recommend most
01:09:25.225 --> 01:09:28.435
Pedro Almodovar stuff, but all about
my mother in particular is, is really
01:09:28.435 --> 01:09:31.465
good and maybe a little less traumatic
than the other one, which she plays
01:09:31.465 --> 01:09:37.390
a major part in, which is uh, the
the skin I live in, which is a very
01:09:37.790 --> 01:09:41.270
difficult movie to recommend because
it's a very difficult movie to watch.
01:09:41.670 --> 01:09:43.680
We're gonna have to talk about
it here at some point because
01:09:43.824 --> 01:09:45.114
it's sort of a horror movie.
01:09:45.594 --> 01:09:48.324
I'm not sure if you could
even say that for sure.
01:09:48.714 --> 01:09:49.524
That movie's a lot.
01:09:50.024 --> 01:09:53.070
Alright, that said that
uh, wraps it up for us.
01:09:53.070 --> 01:09:57.490
I do want to uh, make sure you guys
can let people know where they can find
01:09:57.490 --> 01:09:59.950
more about you and your work online.
01:09:59.980 --> 01:10:02.470
Ivy, can you let people know
where they can find out what
01:10:02.470 --> 01:10:03.790
you're up to and, and hit you up?
01:10:04.424 --> 01:10:07.904
Ivy: Yeah, so I'm at
IvyNoelleWeir.com and I'm.
01:10:08.609 --> 01:10:12.009
Basically every social media
platform at @IvyNoelle.
01:10:12.539 --> 01:10:16.439
I feel like I'm pivoting more to Instagram
these days cuz I know how to use it and
01:10:16.444 --> 01:10:21.427
Twitter is dying, but I'm on Twitter
still until the ship goes down, I guess.
01:10:21.624 --> 01:10:22.884
Jeremy: it's relatable.
01:10:23.110 --> 01:10:24.180
uh, Susan, what about you?
01:10:24.180 --> 01:10:26.670
Where can people find out more about
you and what you're working on?
01:10:27.070 --> 01:10:28.710
Susan: SusanBeneville.com.
01:10:28.910 --> 01:10:31.220
I attempt to Twitter every now and then.
01:10:31.260 --> 01:10:34.710
But social media wise, I'm
mostly on Substack these days.
01:10:34.820 --> 01:10:37.400
Um, my substack is called swirling words.
01:10:37.970 --> 01:10:41.160
That's where I'm putting up some
of my web comics personal essays
01:10:41.165 --> 01:10:44.770
around being a writer um, and
kind of work in progress stuff.
01:10:45.170 --> 01:10:45.660
Jeremy: Nice.
01:10:46.060 --> 01:10:49.090
And as always, even though she's
not here, you can find Emily
01:10:49.220 --> 01:10:53.220
@MegaMoth on Twitter and @mega_moth
on Instagram and mega moth.net.
01:10:53.800 --> 01:10:57.210
Ben is @BentheKahn on their
website in BenKahnComics.com
01:10:57.560 --> 01:11:00.650
where you can pick up all of their
books, including pre-ordering.
01:11:00.650 --> 01:11:03.980
Elle Campbell wins their weekend,
their debut biographic novel from
01:11:03.980 --> 01:11:05.690
Scholastic coming out later this year.
01:11:06.090 --> 01:11:10.640
And as for me, you can find me on Twitter
and Instagram @Jrome58 and on my website
01:11:10.640 --> 01:11:14.050
at jeremywhitley.com where you can find
everything I write, including pre-ordering
01:11:14.070 --> 01:11:17.700
the Dog Knight which is coming out
this May from me and Bree Indigo.
01:11:17.700 --> 01:11:21.030
And I'm super excited about it and
super excited about you guys finally
01:11:21.030 --> 01:11:23.820
reading it because we've been working
on it since before the pandemic started.
01:11:25.267 --> 01:11:28.987
and of course, the podcast is on
Patreon, at Progressively Horrified our
01:11:28.987 --> 01:11:33.937
website at progressively horrified dot
transistor fm on Twitter prog horror pod,
01:11:33.937 --> 01:11:35.257
where we would love to hear from you.
01:11:35.317 --> 01:11:37.597
And speaking of loving to hear
from you, we would love if you'd
01:11:37.597 --> 01:11:39.907
rate and review this podcast
wherever you're listening to it.
01:11:40.147 --> 01:11:43.567
Giving us five stars helps other
people find the podcast, helps
01:11:43.567 --> 01:11:45.217
us get recommended to more folks.
01:11:45.637 --> 01:11:48.607
Thanks again to Ivy and
Susan for joining us.
01:11:48.607 --> 01:11:49.627
Guys, this was so much fun.
01:11:49.627 --> 01:11:50.557
This is such a great movie.
01:11:50.557 --> 01:11:51.697
It was great to talk to you about it.
01:11:52.097 --> 01:11:52.277
Susan: Thank.
01:11:52.694 --> 01:11:55.994
Ivy: Yeah, thank you for giving me
the chance to talk about it cuz I
01:11:55.999 --> 01:11:59.244
was recommended to come on here by
my best friend Steenz who I think's
01:11:59.249 --> 01:12:00.794
tired of hearing me talk about it.
01:12:01.602 --> 01:12:04.692
Jeremy: Yeah, I, I hit up Steenz
and Steenz was like, you need to
01:12:04.692 --> 01:12:06.162
email Ivy about this right now.
01:12:07.812 --> 01:12:11.022
Ben: we, we are most thrilled to
have you on and telling us about it.
01:12:11.682 --> 01:12:15.862
This was a delightful movie to get to
discuss and I'd never seen it before.
01:12:15.862 --> 01:12:20.032
So I, I am, my life is now richer
for having seen Devil's Backbone.
01:12:20.073 --> 01:12:21.759
Jeremy: Have you seen Pan's Labyrinth yet?
01:12:21.939 --> 01:12:22.869
Ben: I haven't.
01:12:23.139 --> 01:12:25.449
Jeremy: You're gonna understand
so much more references after
01:12:25.689 --> 01:12:26.289
Ben: Right.
01:12:26.289 --> 01:12:28.349
My, my partner is very excited.
01:12:28.479 --> 01:12:33.469
Uh, She almost never watches any of these
horror movies, but she very much wants
01:12:33.529 --> 01:12:35.059
to watch Pan's Labyrinth with me this.
01:12:35.804 --> 01:12:39.464
Jeremy: Yeah, I, I haven't watched it
since like the first two times I saw
01:12:39.464 --> 01:12:41.354
it, like when it came out in theaters.
01:12:41.354 --> 01:12:45.664
So I'm excited about sitting down
with that one and hopefully living
01:12:45.664 --> 01:12:49.894
up to the, the deep and abiding
love I've had for it since then.
01:12:50.224 --> 01:12:51.274
But you know, who knows?
01:12:51.274 --> 01:12:53.584
Maybe my soul will be crushed
next week when you hear from me.
01:12:54.094 --> 01:12:54.694
But I doubt it.
01:12:55.034 --> 01:12:56.324
Guillermo hasn't let me down yet.
01:12:56.804 --> 01:12:57.284
Alright.
01:12:57.674 --> 01:12:59.894
Thanks again to uh, all
of you for listening.
01:12:59.894 --> 01:13:02.894
Thanks to Ben for being here,
and we will talk to you next
01:13:02.894 --> 01:13:05.024
week about Pans Labyrinth.
01:13:05.294 --> 01:13:07.244
Until next time, stay horrified.
NOTE
This file was generated by Descript
00:00:00.049 --> 00:00:02.629
Susan: I think I watched like four
episodes and then my wife was like,
00:00:02.629 --> 00:00:04.129
no, we're not watching this anymore.
00:00:04.540 --> 00:00:05.800
Jeremy: My wife did that with the Wire.
00:00:05.800 --> 00:00:07.780
I just continued to watch it myself.
00:00:07.990 --> 00:00:08.560
Actually.
00:00:08.960 --> 00:00:10.910
Have, have you guys watched The Wire?
00:00:12.275 --> 00:00:14.405
Susan: that was another one
that we went a little ways
00:00:14.405 --> 00:00:16.205
into, and then I got the, Nope.
00:00:16.670 --> 00:00:18.699
Jeremy: Yeah, I I had
been watching The Wire.
00:00:18.699 --> 00:00:23.949
I was like two seasons in and I finally
convinced my wife to watch an episode with
00:00:23.949 --> 00:00:25.840
me, or I wasn't even like that far in.
00:00:25.840 --> 00:00:29.590
I was on the first season, still finally
convinced my wife to watch an episode.
00:00:30.009 --> 00:00:36.829
Her one like thing that'll rule out any,
any movie or book for her or TV show is
00:00:36.829 --> 00:00:42.605
like if there are kids in danger, And
the one episode she watched is the one
00:00:42.605 --> 00:00:44.635
where they, they kill baby Michael B.
00:00:44.635 --> 00:00:44.944
Jordan.
00:00:45.344 --> 00:00:49.274
And I was like, no, it doesn't,
it's not like that in every episode.
00:00:49.524 --> 00:00:50.124
Ivy: Oh no.
00:00:50.174 --> 00:00:51.914
Jeremy: only time anything
like this happened.
00:00:52.314 --> 00:00:55.714
Ben: Where Wallace at
string, where Wallace at?
00:00:57.274 --> 00:00:57.964
Jeremy: Terrible.
00:00:58.065 --> 00:00:58.454
All right.
00:00:58.484 --> 00:00:59.739
You guys ready to jump into this?
00:00:59.869 --> 00:01:01.699
Talking about the Devil's Backbone?
00:01:01.899 --> 00:01:05.049
Ben: I truly don't know,
but let's do it anyway.
00:01:05.450 --> 00:01:06.030
Jeremy: All right.
00:01:25.113 --> 00:01:27.123
Good evening and welcome
to Progressively Horrified.
00:01:27.153 --> 00:01:30.813
The podcast will be hold of horror to
Progressive standards it never agreed to.
00:01:31.353 --> 00:01:35.773
Tonight we're talking about
Guillermo Toro's second big
00:01:36.013 --> 00:01:37.333
independent feature film.
00:01:37.483 --> 00:01:40.663
This one actually in Spanish,
not just a little bit in Spanish.
00:01:40.663 --> 00:01:41.293
Like Cronos.
00:01:41.633 --> 00:01:43.423
This is The Devil's Backbone.
00:01:43.793 --> 00:01:45.053
I am your host Jeremy Whitley.
00:01:45.053 --> 00:01:47.933
And with me tonight I have a
panel of chil Encino Bites.
00:01:48.263 --> 00:01:51.503
First, they're here to challenge the
sexy werewolf, sexy, vampire binary.
00:01:51.508 --> 00:01:52.793
My co-host Ben Khan.
00:01:52.793 --> 00:01:53.723
Ben, how are you tonight?
00:01:54.123 --> 00:01:55.523
Ben: Finally representation.
00:01:55.523 --> 00:02:00.023
We can really relate to immature,
wannabe, comic creators.
00:02:00.423 --> 00:02:01.873
Jeremy: Yes, very
00:02:02.038 --> 00:02:03.808
Ben: Fucking that, that, that died.
00:02:03.808 --> 00:02:05.668
When Jaime was like, I'm
gonna make comic books.
00:02:05.668 --> 00:02:09.368
I'm like, Jaime, you go for it.
00:02:09.768 --> 00:02:12.078
Jeremy: Just as, just as likely
to work out as it was for the
00:02:12.078 --> 00:02:13.398
rest of us at this point, I think.
00:02:13.738 --> 00:02:16.763
And our co-host Emily,
is on vacation this week.
00:02:16.763 --> 00:02:18.533
She is at Emerald City Comic-Con.
00:02:18.833 --> 00:02:21.893
I would tell you to go see her, but by
the time this post, it'll be well over, so
00:02:21.893 --> 00:02:23.543
don't go there looking for her right now.
00:02:24.053 --> 00:02:24.473
But we have
00:02:24.818 --> 00:02:25.738
Ben: do, it'll be funny.
00:02:26.358 --> 00:02:27.488
Tell us about it.
00:02:27.683 --> 00:02:31.283
Jeremy: We just wander into the convention
center, demand to see comic books.
00:02:31.673 --> 00:02:32.273
That'd be great.
00:02:32.673 --> 00:02:35.313
And we have two great guests
filling in tonight though.
00:02:35.503 --> 00:02:40.333
First of all, a returning guest and
graphic novel writer, the writer of Nick.
00:02:40.513 --> 00:02:41.413
It's Susan Beneville.
00:02:41.413 --> 00:02:42.823
Susan, great to have you back.
00:02:43.303 --> 00:02:44.413
Susan: Great to be here.
00:02:44.418 --> 00:02:45.103
Thank you very much.
00:02:45.103 --> 00:02:45.253
You know?
00:02:45.253 --> 00:02:46.033
Of course.
00:02:46.093 --> 00:02:46.363
Hi.
00:02:46.363 --> 00:02:49.483
May as one, once again, an artist
who thinks he doesn't need a writer.
00:02:49.883 --> 00:02:50.423
Jeremy: Yes.
00:02:50.693 --> 00:02:52.373
Very important, very important
00:02:52.458 --> 00:02:55.385
Ben: oh, that moment kicked me right saw.
00:02:56.195 --> 00:02:57.745
Susan: Yep, me too.
00:02:58.090 --> 00:03:01.810
Jeremy: all been there and our other
guest, the writer of Anne, of West Philly.
00:03:01.810 --> 00:03:06.610
And the relevant to this and
award-winning archival quality Ivy.
00:03:06.615 --> 00:03:08.590
No, we are Avi, it's great to see you.
00:03:08.860 --> 00:03:09.520
Ivy: Yeah.
00:03:09.525 --> 00:03:10.590
Thank you for having me.
00:03:10.590 --> 00:03:14.190
I'm very excited to talk about my
chosen father, Guillermo del Toro.
00:03:14.590 --> 00:03:19.540
Ben: Yes, and you can really tell
it's Guillermo del Toro because
00:03:19.540 --> 00:03:24.670
there is endless sympathy for the
ghost in the supernatural elements.
00:03:25.070 --> 00:03:29.750
It's never the ghost that are a problem
in a Del Toro movie, it's always people
00:03:30.150 --> 00:03:33.630
except for Pacific Rim, where it was
legitimately just the giant monster.
00:03:34.030 --> 00:03:34.480
Jeremy: I mean,
00:03:34.485 --> 00:03:35.025
Ben: one ended up
00:03:35.070 --> 00:03:37.710
Jeremy: were also not problems
in there, so you know,
00:03:37.995 --> 00:03:39.195
Ben: No, that's true.
00:03:39.525 --> 00:03:40.015
Susan: Yeah.
00:03:40.230 --> 00:03:42.030
Ivy: few ghost problems in that movie.
00:03:42.450 --> 00:03:43.140
Almost none.
00:03:43.895 --> 00:03:44.185
Ben: I
00:03:44.300 --> 00:03:44.810
Jeremy: to be.
00:03:45.105 --> 00:03:48.975
Ben: his, his creative ghost
haunted the shit out of the sequel.
00:03:50.285 --> 00:03:50.460
Ivy: Oh
00:03:50.610 --> 00:03:50.760
Jeremy: Oof.
00:03:51.760 --> 00:03:54.160
Yeah, this one this is a beautiful movie.
00:03:54.490 --> 00:03:59.820
I don't know, Amazon had the brand new,
I guess, super HD restoration of it,
00:03:59.820 --> 00:04:04.513
which uh, watching it on my TV is like,
why do new movies not look this good?
00:04:04.673 --> 00:04:05.163
Ivy: yeah,
00:04:05.958 --> 00:04:06.718
Ben: Gorgeous film.
00:04:07.118 --> 00:04:11.298
Like to quote Harry
Styles, it's like a movie,
00:04:12.087 --> 00:04:13.557
Ivy: it does feel like a movie,
00:04:13.822 --> 00:04:15.472
Susan: Yeah, it had those movie Qualit.
00:04:16.377 --> 00:04:19.827
Ben: and I say that a little because
I love to make fun of the, don't worry
00:04:19.827 --> 00:04:26.183
darling drama, but also, I mean, coming
off of Cronos last week, which really
00:04:26.188 --> 00:04:31.673
had an indie low budget horror film
coming into this, it really is a sense
00:04:31.678 --> 00:04:34.283
of like, oh, we have a leveled up.
00:04:34.533 --> 00:04:37.833
This is not fucking d i y horror.
00:04:37.833 --> 00:04:40.353
This is real cinema now.
00:04:40.753 --> 00:04:42.643
We're dealing with the Spanish Civil War.
00:04:42.823 --> 00:04:46.673
We've got gorgeous
cinematography and shots.
00:04:47.213 --> 00:04:50.303
And with the exception of a
couple explosion effects, I mean
00:04:50.303 --> 00:04:55.650
really just like fantastic, just
very atmospheric, just a movie.
00:04:55.680 --> 00:04:56.580
Movie.
00:04:57.927 --> 00:04:59.337
I'm bad at words today.
00:04:59.337 --> 00:05:00.117
It's been a week.
00:05:00.517 --> 00:05:05.287
Jeremy: Yeah, it had a real, like stephen
Spielberg and Stephen King worked on a
00:05:05.287 --> 00:05:07.357
movie together, but they were Spanish.
00:05:07.357 --> 00:05:08.557
Like, that's what it feels like.
00:05:08.557 --> 00:05:14.017
It's got the, like Stephen King, little
boys fucking around and, you know, getting
00:05:14.017 --> 00:05:16.417
into deep supernatural shenanigans.
00:05:16.417 --> 00:05:21.397
And then the Spielberg like epic
pans across desert and following,
00:05:21.402 --> 00:05:25.867
you know, follow the car into the
place and just these really great
00:05:25.872 --> 00:05:27.547
shots that you're like, damn.
00:05:27.847 --> 00:05:30.187
Like, I wouldn't have thought
to make that, to get that shot.
00:05:30.187 --> 00:05:30.907
And he did.
00:05:30.937 --> 00:05:31.657
It's real good.
00:05:32.167 --> 00:05:33.247
Ben: No, you're totally right.
00:05:33.367 --> 00:05:36.337
why aren't modern movies
looking this good?
00:05:36.709 --> 00:05:37.133
Like-
00:05:37.153 --> 00:05:41.563
Ivy: like it's also the first one
where you can see the comic book
00:05:41.563 --> 00:05:44.173
influence in Del Toro's work.
00:05:44.233 --> 00:05:46.118
Like the shots of the bomb and everything.
00:05:46.568 --> 00:05:48.708
I know that he's said that.
00:05:49.633 --> 00:05:53.103
He was really inspired by a Mexican
cartoonist, and the name is escaping
00:05:53.103 --> 00:05:56.133
me, but actually hired them to work
on the storyboards for the film.
00:05:56.643 --> 00:06:00.033
So some of those shots actually are done.
00:06:00.033 --> 00:06:03.033
You know, were, were storyboarded by
a comic book artist and I feel like
00:06:03.097 --> 00:06:08.273
it carries so through the rest of his
films, that very comic panel esque
00:06:08.273 --> 00:06:12.103
framing you know, things seeming
larger than life to these kids.
00:06:12.103 --> 00:06:14.233
Like, I just think it's so gorgeous.
00:06:14.633 --> 00:06:17.423
Susan: I mean, I think even from the
opening shot where they see, where you
00:06:17.428 --> 00:06:21.143
see the Bombay doors open on the bomber
and you, you're just following the
00:06:21.143 --> 00:06:22.623
Ben: Great opening shot.
00:06:22.793 --> 00:06:24.503
Susan: Oh my God, just a bit.
00:06:24.713 --> 00:06:25.163
Awesome.
00:06:25.601 --> 00:06:29.631
Ben: I don't know if you, if it's more
directing or cinematography, but everyone
00:06:29.636 --> 00:06:34.401
involved in just the filming of this
movie fucking brought their a game.
00:06:35.031 --> 00:06:38.454
Like this is a superbly well made film.
00:06:38.854 --> 00:06:43.024
Like to point, wait, I really, I didn't
have very many notes on this film
00:06:43.024 --> 00:06:45.304
just cuz it was just so well crafted.
00:06:45.304 --> 00:06:49.167
Like there was no fat, there was
nothing that wasn't emotionally
00:06:49.467 --> 00:06:53.267
important or contributed to
the themes or the atmosphere.
00:06:53.667 --> 00:06:54.417
Jeremy: Yeah, for sure.
00:06:54.417 --> 00:06:59.127
And I think even like down to the casting,
this, this movie is pretty immaculate
00:06:59.277 --> 00:07:04.802
because, anytime you get a group of
little boys in a story like this, some
00:07:04.802 --> 00:07:08.552
of them tend to like, fade into each
other and you're like, which kid is this?
00:07:08.552 --> 00:07:09.002
I don't know.
00:07:09.392 --> 00:07:13.562
But like, these kids are all like, very
distinctive, not just in their their
00:07:13.562 --> 00:07:15.302
personalities, but in their looks.
00:07:15.302 --> 00:07:18.492
And you know, they've got certain
accessories and stuff that you're like,
00:07:18.492 --> 00:07:19.722
oh, that's the kid with the goggles.
00:07:19.722 --> 00:07:20.352
Okay, got it.
00:07:20.352 --> 00:07:21.012
I remember him.
00:07:21.582 --> 00:07:23.322
So like, it's, it's
really well put together.
00:07:23.322 --> 00:07:26.824
And I think, like, going back
to what Ivy said uro was a
00:07:26.824 --> 00:07:28.629
fine choice for a found father.
00:07:28.849 --> 00:07:29.899
Or for a chosen father.
00:07:29.899 --> 00:07:32.569
Because not only is he
like a, great filmmaker-
00:07:32.574 --> 00:07:33.544
Ben: looks like a great hugger.
00:07:33.559 --> 00:07:33.859
Jeremy: sympathy.
00:07:33.859 --> 00:07:34.339
Yeah.
00:07:34.449 --> 00:07:34.969
Ivy: Oh my God.
00:07:34.969 --> 00:07:37.999
You know, he gives the best hugs,
you know, it's like hugging totorro.
00:07:38.021 --> 00:07:39.719
Jeremy: I feel like this
dude's gotta be a great hugger.
00:07:39.724 --> 00:07:42.619
We've, we, we've talked about this
before on this show, I think is,
00:07:42.739 --> 00:07:44.659
he is, I would like to hug Altorro.
00:07:44.659 --> 00:07:45.469
It seems like it would be
00:07:45.702 --> 00:07:46.152
Ben: Yes.
00:07:46.157 --> 00:07:47.502
Ivy: everything wrong with my life.
00:07:47.502 --> 00:07:48.852
I think if I could, if I
00:07:48.852 --> 00:07:49.182
could give
00:07:49.572 --> 00:07:50.242
to hug.
00:07:50.312 --> 00:07:51.272
Ben: Well, I mean, there is that,
00:07:51.332 --> 00:07:55.922
that famous anecdote about how,
uh, the little girl actress in the
00:07:55.922 --> 00:08:01.922
flashback scene of Pacific Rim to
help her be not afraid during filming.
00:08:01.922 --> 00:08:03.752
Let her call him Totorro sound.
00:08:03.872 --> 00:08:05.552
Let him call him Totorro during filming,
00:08:05.597 --> 00:08:06.767
Ivy: It's so cute.
00:08:07.154 --> 00:08:08.954
Or have you seen that footage of him?
00:08:08.954 --> 00:08:12.744
So he has like a favorite like
Kaiju and he went to Japan to do
00:08:12.744 --> 00:08:14.334
promo, I think for Pacific Rim.
00:08:14.724 --> 00:08:19.254
And they show him getting to meet
like an actor in the Kaiju costume.
00:08:19.254 --> 00:08:21.204
And he's just delighted.
00:08:21.204 --> 00:08:25.074
Like he's just is the happiest
I've ever seen someone look.
00:08:25.314 --> 00:08:28.764
He's just the cutest man who
makes the most terrifying movies.
00:08:29.164 --> 00:08:33.779
Ben: I feel like they say, you
know, like, oh, You don't wanna
00:08:33.779 --> 00:08:36.659
see how like the sausage is made
of like, creative endeavors.
00:08:36.659 --> 00:08:42.089
Like once you peek behind the
curtain it loses magic, I think.
00:08:42.359 --> 00:08:46.320
But there's so much that like if the
creative process that like increases the
00:08:46.325 --> 00:08:50.619
magic, and I think you can see that with
De Toro that like he's not just seeing
00:08:51.189 --> 00:08:58.039
a monster design he likes, he's seeing
decades of film history and the directors
00:08:58.044 --> 00:09:03.819
and actors and effects teams who put
that history and the greater context.
00:09:03.819 --> 00:09:10.699
And I mean, he's just a, a man who
clearly loves film and that love is
00:09:11.099 --> 00:09:13.289
felt in the DNA of all of his movie.
00:09:13.946 --> 00:09:14.666
Ivy: Absolutely.
00:09:14.666 --> 00:09:16.886
They feel so personal.
00:09:17.246 --> 00:09:22.526
And I think what, especially, like I love
about the Devil's Backbone is that, so he
00:09:23.036 --> 00:09:25.796
considers it a sister to Pan's Labyrinth.
00:09:25.936 --> 00:09:28.276
He thinks of them as
like a pair of movies.
00:09:28.902 --> 00:09:31.857
And they both feel so personal.
00:09:31.862 --> 00:09:36.137
And I feel like you can feel like
memories of childhood and again, like
00:09:36.137 --> 00:09:39.797
that love of filmmaking, that love
of comic books, like things that we
00:09:39.797 --> 00:09:44.807
carry through our lives into adulthood,
like so reflected in them and it
00:09:44.807 --> 00:09:46.517
makes them feel very personal to you.
00:09:46.917 --> 00:09:53.607
Ben: if someone told me that Guillermo
Delto was actually born in 1929 and
00:09:53.607 --> 00:09:59.467
then in 1942 time traveled to like
90, like 1990, I would believe you.
00:10:00.517 --> 00:10:00.817
Ivy: Yeah.
00:10:01.027 --> 00:10:03.757
Ben: like, cuz like you said,
it's like I know this man wasn't
00:10:03.987 --> 00:10:05.527
a lie for the Spanish Civil War.
00:10:07.156 --> 00:10:10.526
Whatever he went through there,
this is clearly an era or
00:10:10.526 --> 00:10:14.689
experience that resonates with
him on an incredibly deep level.
00:10:14.939 --> 00:10:18.459
Jeremy: I'm, I'm not an old enough
person to really make this like stick,
00:10:18.459 --> 00:10:23.049
but I think it's incredible that
GUI do Toro as still a very young
00:10:23.049 --> 00:10:26.949
filmmaker at the point that he was
making this, has the like, insight to
00:10:26.949 --> 00:10:29.289
write characters like Carmen and Dr.
00:10:29.289 --> 00:10:34.729
Casares, who are like older people
who like have a lot of interiority,
00:10:34.729 --> 00:10:36.469
who have a lot of stuff going on.
00:10:36.469 --> 00:10:37.939
Some of it's kind of fucked up.
00:10:38.219 --> 00:10:45.119
But like, they feel like real people who
have lived really long, hard lives and
00:10:45.119 --> 00:10:47.129
like, that's not something you can say.
00:10:47.134 --> 00:10:49.859
I think for a lot of even
good young filmmakers
00:10:49.859 --> 00:10:50.648
but like, like,
00:10:50.723 --> 00:10:53.183
Ben: you wanna talk actors who I, who?
00:10:53.903 --> 00:10:54.413
Amazing.
00:10:54.413 --> 00:10:57.203
This movie Federico, Lupe as Dr.
00:10:57.203 --> 00:10:57.923
Casares.
00:10:58.313 --> 00:10:59.453
Just incredible.
00:10:59.853 --> 00:11:00.723
Ivy: He's incredible.
00:11:01.123 --> 00:11:01.393
Ben: such
00:11:01.573 --> 00:11:03.763
Ivy: looks so much like Christopher Lee.
00:11:03.763 --> 00:11:04.723
It throws me off
00:11:05.803 --> 00:11:06.523
Ben: he does he
00:11:06.958 --> 00:11:07.378
Susan: But.
00:11:08.213 --> 00:11:13.748
Ben: Absolutely a hundred percent looks
like Argentinian Christopher Le, a hundred
00:11:13.868 --> 00:11:14.678
Jeremy: It's crystal ball
00:11:15.375 --> 00:11:17.835
Susan: You, you get that sense
of like, that love of film.
00:11:17.835 --> 00:11:21.225
And as you know, I, I love old films
and I love, you know, film noir.
00:11:21.225 --> 00:11:24.445
And so you can see that, you know,
Deltoro is somebody who clearly
00:11:24.445 --> 00:11:28.625
studied those like old classic films
where they have like older women and
00:11:28.625 --> 00:11:31.265
older men who are like still vibrant.
00:11:31.465 --> 00:11:33.655
You know, that just isn't
something you see now.
00:11:33.705 --> 00:11:37.905
And you see like, like her lust and
her passion and all those things.
00:11:37.905 --> 00:11:39.735
And same thing with, with him.
00:11:40.185 --> 00:11:44.775
And um, and we just don't see
that I think in, in modern films.
00:11:45.065 --> 00:11:47.615
Certainly not in, these
sort of fantastical films.
00:11:47.615 --> 00:11:50.505
And I, that was one of the things
that I just loved about it was the
00:11:50.505 --> 00:11:52.035
humanity of those two characters.
00:11:52.185 --> 00:11:55.005
I mean, all the characters,
but they just grabbed.
00:11:55.671 --> 00:12:00.651
Ben: Also between this and Cronos
having now seen Federico, Look
00:12:00.651 --> 00:12:05.475
clean-shaven with a mustache and with
a beard, fucking beard all the way.
00:12:07.550 --> 00:12:08.040
Jeremy: Yeah.
00:12:08.440 --> 00:12:09.070
Yeah, he's,
00:12:09.325 --> 00:12:11.245
Ben: Fucking, he looks
amazing in that beard.
00:12:11.605 --> 00:12:13.435
He looks, he looks great in this movie.
00:12:13.610 --> 00:12:16.770
You know, aside from the part where
he's dead and covered in flies.
00:12:16.890 --> 00:12:18.930
But when he is alive, he looks great.
00:12:19.340 --> 00:12:19.875
Jeremy: looks great.
00:12:19.875 --> 00:12:22.785
Dead and covered in flies, you
know, and it's a lot to, it's
00:12:22.785 --> 00:12:24.015
a lot to expect of somebody.
00:12:24.475 --> 00:12:26.635
But I don't feel like we can talk
about him without talking about
00:12:26.635 --> 00:12:28.615
Marisa Paredes as well, who like,
00:12:29.015 --> 00:12:29.435
Ben: Yes,
00:12:30.010 --> 00:12:30.520
Jeremy: great.
00:12:30.880 --> 00:12:36.340
Like, you know, I've, I've seen
her in, in several other films.
00:12:36.420 --> 00:12:41.370
You know, she was in, and she's
in the skin I live in, like, and
00:12:41.370 --> 00:12:44.010
she is always just fantastic.
00:12:44.010 --> 00:12:45.420
Like, she, she brings it every time.
00:12:45.920 --> 00:12:47.900
Those are both Pedro Almodovar movies.
00:12:47.900 --> 00:12:50.570
So like, he, he writes
women very well as well.
00:12:50.840 --> 00:12:57.175
But like, yeah, she's, she's so deep,
there's so much going on with, Carmen
00:12:57.175 --> 00:13:01.595
throughout this movie that like, as
the movie goes on, it just sort of
00:13:01.595 --> 00:13:03.605
keeps peeling back layers on her.
00:13:03.995 --> 00:13:07.405
And you know, by the time you find out
the worst things about her, you already
00:13:07.405 --> 00:13:09.245
like her a lot, so you're like, ah.
00:13:09.715 --> 00:13:14.225
Like, that's, that's terrible, I guess.
00:13:14.625 --> 00:13:14.915
Ben: I.
00:13:15.060 --> 00:13:17.740
Susan: mean, it, it just makes you
feel like so much more compassion
00:13:17.740 --> 00:13:19.510
for other characters, right?
00:13:19.510 --> 00:13:21.970
It makes you feel a little bit
more compassion for histo and
00:13:22.400 --> 00:13:24.076
and it also makes you look at
00:13:24.076 --> 00:13:26.326
how fully developed each character is.
00:13:26.748 --> 00:13:29.908
Ben: Plus Act one Jacinto before you
realize just what a piece of shit he is.
00:13:29.908 --> 00:13:34.978
I mean, fucking, I get it
like, yeah, Marisa Paredes
00:13:35.428 --> 00:13:39.358
Ivy: Jacinto is such a great antagonist
for exactly the reason we were just
00:13:39.358 --> 00:13:45.328
talking about, like, he has so much
depth I feel like Del Toro gives you,
00:13:45.328 --> 00:13:48.778
and like at the beginning, you know,
we were talking about it and you said
00:13:48.778 --> 00:13:50.278
there was like no fat on it, right?
00:13:50.278 --> 00:13:55.948
Like, In such a tight film, to give
that much depth to an antagonist
00:13:55.948 --> 00:14:00.058
is really hard cuz it would be very
easy to make us into like a mustache
00:14:00.058 --> 00:14:02.608
twirling, like child murderer.
00:14:03.378 --> 00:14:05.968
Ben: instead, he's a
complex child murderer.
00:14:07.198 --> 00:14:08.878
Ivy: a more interesting child murderer or.
00:14:08.953 --> 00:14:09.253
Ben: Yeah.
00:14:09.283 --> 00:14:10.663
Oh, very interesting child.
00:14:10.776 --> 00:14:12.576
A very interesting child murderer.
00:14:12.976 --> 00:14:13.936
Yeah, like every, you're right.
00:14:13.941 --> 00:14:19.016
Like no one's just a cartoon
character except maybe Goggles boy.
00:14:19.106 --> 00:14:21.146
Goggles boy might be a
little bit of a cartoon.
00:14:21.366 --> 00:14:24.821
But everyone else is
very three-dimensional.
00:14:25.293 --> 00:14:30.713
Like ha, the degree to which Jaime is
introduced as just the taller orphanage
00:14:30.713 --> 00:14:36.903
bully, and then goes on to be so
developed, like to the point where Jaime
00:14:36.903 --> 00:14:38.983
kind of overshadows Carlos in the plot.
00:14:39.563 --> 00:14:43.883
Ivy: I think the shot of the bomb
landing on the night that Jaime sees
00:14:43.883 --> 00:14:48.113
it, I think it's one of my favorite
shots in any movie ever made.
00:14:48.383 --> 00:14:50.333
It's so like, I don't know.
00:14:50.333 --> 00:14:52.943
You feel so much that experience for him.
00:14:52.943 --> 00:14:55.993
Like he goes through this terrible
experience and he comes outside and the
00:14:55.993 --> 00:14:58.036
bomb lands and it's like, I don't know.
00:14:58.036 --> 00:15:00.466
You just feel so bonded
to him in that moment.
00:15:00.866 --> 00:15:01.076
Ben: Oh
00:15:01.331 --> 00:15:02.181
Susan: Absolutely.
00:15:02.186 --> 00:15:02.501
Yeah.
00:15:02.901 --> 00:15:06.888
Jeremy: yeah, it, it's such an interesting
thing to evoke in people watching this
00:15:06.893 --> 00:15:10.188
movie that by the time you get to the
end of the movie, you're like, I really
00:15:10.188 --> 00:15:11.658
hope Jaime gets to kill this guy.
00:15:12.588 --> 00:15:14.058
I really want him to get that
00:15:14.748 --> 00:15:15.408
Susan: Right, right.
00:15:16.583 --> 00:15:17.073
Ivy: Yeah.
00:15:17.078 --> 00:15:18.536
Ben: the end of the movie, hell yeah.
00:15:18.603 --> 00:15:19.383
especially.
00:15:19.783 --> 00:15:23.653
Because this isn't like, oh,
we've stopped the villain right
00:15:23.653 --> 00:15:25.003
at the height of his plan.
00:15:25.003 --> 00:15:28.453
Or we've, we're having an
epic due and I win the dual.
00:15:28.853 --> 00:15:33.393
This is a mop of people like
repeatedly spearing, someone
00:15:33.393 --> 00:15:35.103
crawling along the floor.
00:15:35.503 --> 00:15:40.130
So it says a lot about how good
the setup is, that I'm still
00:15:40.130 --> 00:15:41.780
entirely rooting for this.
00:15:41.785 --> 00:15:46.960
That at no point during just this,
you know, group child murder, am I
00:15:46.965 --> 00:15:48.610
being like, Ooh, is this too far?
00:15:48.615 --> 00:15:50.140
Should this be a good thing?
00:15:50.140 --> 00:15:52.150
I'm still like, Hey, you're
doing what you gotta do.
00:15:52.150 --> 00:15:52.720
Go get 'em.
00:15:52.720 --> 00:15:53.230
Kids.
00:15:54.903 --> 00:15:57.003
That's a tough line for a movie to walk.
00:15:57.003 --> 00:15:59.203
And this movie dances on.
00:15:59.746 --> 00:16:02.086
Ivy: deltoro is so
intentional with violence.
00:16:02.250 --> 00:16:06.690
You know, I think a lot about like the
bottle breaking scene in Pan's Labyrinth.
00:16:06.836 --> 00:16:08.816
if you've seen Pan's Labyrinth,
it's pretty gruesome.
00:16:08.879 --> 00:16:09.389
even like.
00:16:10.254 --> 00:16:12.584
You know, this repeated
stabbing with sticks, right?
00:16:12.584 --> 00:16:16.494
Like there's never violence in his movies
that feels over the top, even though
00:16:16.494 --> 00:16:20.604
it really easily could, it always feels
really realistic and really grounded.
00:16:20.609 --> 00:16:24.534
And I think that's what makes it
so affecting, cuz it feels like
00:16:24.924 --> 00:16:27.024
very visceral and very real.
00:16:27.474 --> 00:16:31.104
Like I can't think of him ever using
violence in like a fetishistic way.
00:16:31.504 --> 00:16:31.864
Susan: Right.
00:16:31.924 --> 00:16:35.524
I mean, I found that the, the stabbing
seemed to be almost restrained.
00:16:35.554 --> 00:16:38.027
Like, I thought it was gonna be like
the stabbing of the mammoth, and it
00:16:38.027 --> 00:16:41.387
would just be like this frenzy, and
it really wasn't, I mean, it really
00:16:41.477 --> 00:16:42.077
Ben: oh shit.
00:16:42.082 --> 00:16:43.817
I didn't even make the mammoth connection.
00:16:44.217 --> 00:16:44.667
Fuck.
00:16:44.667 --> 00:16:47.007
I didn't even, ah, yeah.
00:16:47.457 --> 00:16:48.867
Oh, this movie y'all.
00:16:50.097 --> 00:16:54.507
Jeremy: that first spear that goes in
under his arm just looks so painful.
00:16:54.507 --> 00:16:54.927
Like it
00:16:54.927 --> 00:16:59.457
looks like it hurts so much, and like
he doesn't, there's no end trails.
00:16:59.457 --> 00:17:02.967
There's not a ton of blood in
this, except for used as like
00:17:02.967 --> 00:17:04.797
color effect more than anything.
00:17:05.157 --> 00:17:09.047
But like when that first spear hits
under the arm and that, that soft
00:17:09.047 --> 00:17:11.807
spot, it's just, it hurts to watch.
00:17:11.812 --> 00:17:15.257
You're like, oh, I really kind of
want that guy to die right now.
00:17:15.262 --> 00:17:16.427
But, oh my God.
00:17:17.387 --> 00:17:17.897
Ben: right?
00:17:17.897 --> 00:17:20.237
Like there's no, I'm like, Ooh,
this isn't gonna be a fight.
00:17:20.242 --> 00:17:21.137
He, he is lost.
00:17:21.137 --> 00:17:22.637
There's no coming back from that.
00:17:23.027 --> 00:17:28.467
The one moment that I think Del Toro
Con kind of gave into spectacle,
00:17:28.619 --> 00:17:31.784
this is more object destruction than.
00:17:31.852 --> 00:17:36.639
violence on person is, and I, again, if
someone told me Robert Rodriguez like,
00:17:36.639 --> 00:17:41.659
filled in for a day while Del Toro had a
stomach bug, I would believe you is when
00:17:41.664 --> 00:17:47.809
the car explodes and debris fly straight
into the camera as a scene transition
00:17:48.209 --> 00:17:48.210
Jeremy: Yeah,
00:17:48.349 --> 00:17:48.839
Susan: Yeah,
00:17:48.976 --> 00:17:52.786
Ben: it's a cool moment, but it's also
a kind of totally outta place with
00:17:52.826 --> 00:17:55.186
Ivy: Yeah, tonally very strange.
00:17:55.756 --> 00:17:56.246
Susan: yeah.
00:17:56.646 --> 00:18:01.561
Jeremy: I, I think it, it works because,
so many children die in that scene.
00:18:01.801 --> 00:18:04.914
Like when they, come back and they
pan back over the ground and there
00:18:04.919 --> 00:18:11.074
are several young boys dead, like
not dying, but like they are gone.
00:18:11.404 --> 00:18:15.934
It's like, oh, like that
wasn't a fun action explosion.
00:18:15.934 --> 00:18:18.437
That was an explosion of like a car.
00:18:18.442 --> 00:18:21.677
And when cars explode, pieces of
them come off and they kill people.
00:18:22.077 --> 00:18:22.527
Susan: Right.
00:18:22.937 --> 00:18:28.297
Ben: I wanna say Del Toro was always so
good about showing, just, you know, they
00:18:28.297 --> 00:18:34.051
say you can't make a truly anti-war film
because the show war is to glamorize it.
00:18:34.164 --> 00:18:38.801
But I feel like Del Toro might have
found a way to tell a truly anti-war
00:18:38.801 --> 00:18:44.050
film by never showing the soldiers or
the battle, but by focusing squarely
00:18:44.121 --> 00:18:47.704
on the effects and trauma of innocence.
00:18:48.094 --> 00:18:52.211
Ivy: Yeah, The critic um, Jay
Hoberman called the Devil's Backbone
00:18:52.211 --> 00:18:57.321
when it was released anti-Fascist
Supernaturalism, and I really loved that.
00:18:57.321 --> 00:18:58.011
I know.
00:18:58.011 --> 00:18:59.481
Isn't that just awesome?
00:18:59.841 --> 00:18:59.961
But
00:18:59.961 --> 00:19:01.821
Susan: we made a lot
more of that these days.
00:19:02.001 --> 00:19:02.541
Ivy: Yeah.
00:19:02.661 --> 00:19:03.261
Ben: Right?
00:19:03.351 --> 00:19:03.801
Oh my
00:19:03.856 --> 00:19:08.181
Ivy: was really, I would say that Del
Toro was an anti-fascist filmmaker.
00:19:08.181 --> 00:19:11.751
I mean, it's so much a theme
in a lot of his work, you know?
00:19:12.081 --> 00:19:14.841
Ben: I mean, to bring it back to
Pacific Rim, which not a horror
00:19:14.841 --> 00:19:16.564
movie, but is the movie I love.
00:19:16.641 --> 00:19:21.494
I mean, he talked in great detail in
interviews about like how much thought
00:19:21.494 --> 00:19:26.004
he put into just you know, the titles
of this fighting force, that he very
00:19:26.394 --> 00:19:32.161
explicitly wanted to avoid traditional
military titles, which is why uh, you
00:19:32.161 --> 00:19:36.744
know, it's like, I forget what Idris
Alba's rank is in that to Google.
00:19:37.051 --> 00:19:42.151
But yeah, it's all about like rangers
and marshals instead of like generals
00:19:42.151 --> 00:19:43.441
and lieutenants and captains.
00:19:43.441 --> 00:19:49.386
Like he was very explicit about wanting
to, in this one movie where he kind of
00:19:49.386 --> 00:19:54.846
absolutely does glorify violence, granted
it's giant robot on monster violence.
00:19:55.009 --> 00:19:57.134
So not something that I think
people will have too much real
00:19:57.134 --> 00:19:58.574
world trauma about, hopefully.
00:19:59.144 --> 00:20:03.914
Then again, we, Emily has made us watch
a lot of Avon Gelian, so I'm not sure,
00:20:04.514 --> 00:20:09.944
but even in this one movie where it
is monsters versus robots, he's still
00:20:09.944 --> 00:20:14.594
putting thought into, okay, if we're
glorifying this big beat him up, how can
00:20:14.594 --> 00:20:18.704
we make sure we're not glor accidentally
glorifying the military alongside it?
00:20:18.887 --> 00:20:21.851
And uh, especially if you look at
that in the context of say, like, You
00:20:21.851 --> 00:20:26.672
know, like the Michael Bay films
with the Military's presence or Dark
00:20:26.672 --> 00:20:30.902
Knight Rises, where you have Batman
literally leading an army of cops.
00:20:31.115 --> 00:20:36.389
You know, it's, it's a level of
thought and anti-fascism that I
00:20:36.479 --> 00:20:40.679
don't think a lot of other filmmakers
are really as conscious or aware
00:20:40.679 --> 00:20:44.189
of, and as intentional on avoiding,
00:20:44.774 --> 00:20:47.684
Jeremy: The only other one that
comes to mind is Ryan Johnson, and
00:20:47.689 --> 00:20:51.814
I think that's just because I'm, I'm
watching Poker face right now, which is
00:20:51.964 --> 00:20:54.724
basically, what if Colombo was not a cop?
00:20:54.934 --> 00:20:56.374
Like, hmm.
00:20:56.419 --> 00:20:59.479
Ben: Ryan Johnson, definitely
also in the anti-fascist camp.
00:20:59.749 --> 00:21:04.729
Also, I have not watched Dark Night Rises
in quite a number of years, and only
00:21:04.734 --> 00:21:09.799
just now in this moment, pulling that
example out of thin air, did I realize how
00:21:09.799 --> 00:21:12.259
poorly Batman leading an army of cops as.
00:21:12.980 --> 00:21:13.370
Susan: Yeah.
00:21:13.425 --> 00:21:16.385
Jeremy: Yeah, I mean, that
whole movie has a lot of issues.
00:21:17.732 --> 00:21:21.769
Like Derek Knight has a lot of issues
on a thematic level that are easily
00:21:21.769 --> 00:21:25.442
forgotten underneath, like, Heath
ledger's performance and things like that.
00:21:25.759 --> 00:21:29.502
Uh, Dark Knight Rises does not have
that sort of thing going for it.
00:21:30.165 --> 00:21:30.515
Ivy: no.
00:21:31.222 --> 00:21:34.068
Jeremy: Well, Ben, did you
want to uh, do the, the recap
00:21:34.492 --> 00:21:35.512
Ben: Uh, yes.
00:21:35.512 --> 00:21:40.922
The Devil's Backbone is introduced
through uh, Carlos an orphan who.
00:21:41.083 --> 00:21:41.923
Just lost.
00:21:41.923 --> 00:21:45.107
His father doesn't seem fully
aware that he's lost his
00:21:45.107 --> 00:21:47.747
father, and that never
really comes back up again.
00:21:48.467 --> 00:21:49.337
Especially the whole movie.
00:21:49.337 --> 00:21:50.867
Never knows that his father's dead.
00:21:51.267 --> 00:21:52.197
So that's a thing.
00:21:52.360 --> 00:21:53.560
And he's dropped off.
00:21:53.770 --> 00:21:55.930
Importantly, it's the Spanish Civil War.
00:21:55.935 --> 00:21:59.140
His father was an anti-fascist.
00:21:59.277 --> 00:22:04.107
And he is brought to an orphanage
run by other members of that,
00:22:04.107 --> 00:22:05.940
um, the socialist forces.
00:22:06.340 --> 00:22:10.570
It's not really clear if they're
funding or how it all works, uh,
00:22:10.570 --> 00:22:12.247
but the people running it uh, Dr.
00:22:12.247 --> 00:22:18.787
Casares and Carmen are very clearly
former or actively involved in fighting
00:22:18.787 --> 00:22:20.647
the fascist or in the Civil War.
00:22:21.047 --> 00:22:22.037
You know, they talk a lot.
00:22:22.067 --> 00:22:25.457
They talk about like, Ooh, maybe
England or France will come or help us.
00:22:25.517 --> 00:22:28.337
And then they talk about how
that's definitely not gonna happen.
00:22:28.737 --> 00:22:31.677
Ernest Hemingway flies
in with his ambulance.
00:22:32.077 --> 00:22:32.347
Okay.
00:22:32.347 --> 00:22:35.677
That part didn't happen, but, you know,
somewhere during this movie, Ernest
00:22:35.677 --> 00:22:37.957
Hemingway was driving an ambulance around.
00:22:38.407 --> 00:22:43.588
On his first night in the orphanage
Carlos meets several other orphans
00:22:43.798 --> 00:22:46.908
like aforementioned Goggle Boy,
whose name I don't remember,
00:22:46.908 --> 00:22:48.228
and is not in the Wikipedia
00:22:48.303 --> 00:22:49.743
Jeremy: I think that's Galvez.
00:22:50.418 --> 00:22:51.108
Susan: Kelz.
00:22:51.948 --> 00:22:52.578
Ben: Thank you.
00:22:52.898 --> 00:22:57.038
Owl whose deal is, he does
not talk and is small.
00:22:57.458 --> 00:23:03.518
And Jaime, who as we've talked about,
is introduced as a bully, who is
00:23:03.518 --> 00:23:09.548
mean to Carlos takes his comics and
pranks him into getting in trouble.
00:23:10.058 --> 00:23:12.705
But as we will find out uh, he is.
00:23:12.728 --> 00:23:15.787
A far more complicated
person, also an artist.
00:23:15.877 --> 00:23:21.277
And Carlos and him start to be friends
after Carlos doesn't rat him out for
00:23:21.282 --> 00:23:23.167
them all sneaking outside at night.
00:23:23.330 --> 00:23:26.870
Not that Kaaris doesn't figure it out
anyway, cuz Casares's is smart like that.
00:23:27.000 --> 00:23:28.980
He's been at this game longer
than they've been alive.
00:23:28.980 --> 00:23:30.760
They can't keep fucking
secrets from Casares.
00:23:30.780 --> 00:23:31.500
He knows what's up.
00:23:31.900 --> 00:23:39.227
Meanwhile, there's also Jacinto who
is nominally engaged to the woman who
00:23:39.227 --> 00:23:45.347
works at the orphanage, but is also
having an affair with Carmen, who is
00:23:45.747 --> 00:23:50.607
rightfully ashamed because he was also
an orphan in her care way back when.
00:23:50.817 --> 00:23:52.107
Jeremy: He's an OG orphan.
00:23:52.167 --> 00:23:54.777
He's been an orphan
there for like 16 years.
00:23:54.777 --> 00:23:55.527
I think he says
00:23:55.927 --> 00:24:02.317
Ben: there's layers, I mean, Not quite
Oedipal, but it's uncomfortably close.
00:24:02.767 --> 00:24:05.527
And he, he's just bad.
00:24:05.527 --> 00:24:09.857
I mean, you know, he is generally just
horrible to be around and also just
00:24:09.857 --> 00:24:13.037
cuts Carlos' face as like a warning.
00:24:13.577 --> 00:24:16.830
So, you know, generally stay
away from the people who just
00:24:16.830 --> 00:24:19.230
indiscriminately knife children's faces.
00:24:19.430 --> 00:24:20.210
Jeremy: his girlfriend
00:24:20.450 --> 00:24:20.910
Conchita.
00:24:20.960 --> 00:24:23.360
Turns out to be a real G though like.
00:24:23.420 --> 00:24:25.100
Ben: oh, she's absolute g
00:24:25.178 --> 00:24:27.878
Jeremy: She spends a lot of the
movies sort of watching him do bad
00:24:27.878 --> 00:24:30.128
shit and making excuses for it.
00:24:30.608 --> 00:24:34.301
But like later on in the movie will be
the one that's like, well, everybody
00:24:34.301 --> 00:24:37.991
else here is old a child, so I guess
I'm gonna walk a day and a half to
00:24:37.991 --> 00:24:44.531
town to like save the day despite, you
know, wearing a dress and old shoes.
00:24:44.531 --> 00:24:45.221
Like, I'm just
00:24:45.226 --> 00:24:45.611
going to
00:24:45.811 --> 00:24:46.631
Ben: doesn't even take water.
00:24:46.631 --> 00:24:48.291
She's, she's just ready to.
00:24:49.151 --> 00:24:52.121
And then it's still point blank
by Jacinto like, I'm gonna kill
00:24:52.121 --> 00:24:53.171
you if you don't come with me.
00:24:53.171 --> 00:24:56.891
And she says, get fucked at knife point.
00:24:57.311 --> 00:25:02.741
So she unfortunately does not make
it, but she goes out like, like a boss
00:25:02.861 --> 00:25:07.541
on her feet telling Jacinto to his
face, what a piece of shit she is.
00:25:07.941 --> 00:25:08.781
She's awesome.
00:25:09.181 --> 00:25:15.631
But before all of this fucking Carlos
sees a ghost Santi you know, and it's
00:25:15.631 --> 00:25:18.931
in that kind of way where Del Toro
likes to do, where it's like, Ooh,
00:25:18.991 --> 00:25:21.241
ghost, is this gonna be creepy or scary?
00:25:21.241 --> 00:25:23.881
But you're like, no, Del
Toro, I know you're making it.
00:25:23.881 --> 00:25:24.691
You love ghosts.
00:25:24.691 --> 00:25:27.471
The ghost is clearly gonna turn
out to be a good person who
00:25:27.471 --> 00:25:30.991
was like wrongfully killed and
helped them in the end, which is
00:25:31.206 --> 00:25:36.156
Jeremy: I love how they do his, the
effect of, of Santi, like he looks
00:25:36.156 --> 00:25:39.456
mostly like a normal kid from a
distance, except that he's a little,
00:25:39.726 --> 00:25:42.906
you know, pale and washed out cuz
he's been underwater for a long time.
00:25:43.266 --> 00:25:47.366
But like, he has like this sort of
trickle of blood coming out of his
00:25:47.366 --> 00:25:51.529
forehead anytime he shows up, which
like is such a quick indicator of
00:25:51.529 --> 00:25:53.569
like, oh, that's not, that's not right.
00:25:54.014 --> 00:25:55.354
Ivy: Yeah, it's something.
00:25:56.299 --> 00:25:59.959
Del Toro Perfects also this
in Crimson Peak later, like he
00:25:59.959 --> 00:26:03.169
brings back the floaty blood ghost
and you're like, hell yeah man.
00:26:03.169 --> 00:26:03.889
Keep doing it.
00:26:04.039 --> 00:26:05.289
I wanna see more of that.
00:26:05.794 --> 00:26:10.304
Ben: I saw Crimson Peak first before
this movie, so I'm like seeing the
00:26:10.304 --> 00:26:12.134
ghost get, I'm like, I know your tricks.
00:26:12.134 --> 00:26:14.054
Del Toro, I saw Crimson Peak.
00:26:14.154 --> 00:26:15.024
That kid's fine.
00:26:15.234 --> 00:26:16.734
That kid's gonna be an ally.
00:26:16.984 --> 00:26:20.044
Jeremy: Not to be a jerk about it,
but this movie's much better than
00:26:20.044 --> 00:26:21.604
Crimson Peak, which we've already
00:26:21.649 --> 00:26:24.199
Ben: This movie is much
better than Crimson Peak.
00:26:24.514 --> 00:26:26.014
Ivy: You can't argue it really.
00:26:26.134 --> 00:26:28.649
Ben: up, this is a better movie.
00:26:29.049 --> 00:26:29.409
I'm sorry.
00:26:29.469 --> 00:26:31.569
Coming of age in the Spanish.
00:26:31.574 --> 00:26:36.949
Civil War is more interesting
than fucking Loki does an incest.
00:26:37.349 --> 00:26:40.619
Ivy: I'm a Crimson Peak and
even I can't, like, there's no
00:26:40.619 --> 00:26:42.359
like to stand on, to say Devil's
00:26:42.734 --> 00:26:42.914
Ben: I'm
00:26:42.934 --> 00:26:43.409
Ivy: isn't better.
00:26:43.499 --> 00:26:44.459
Absolutely better.
00:26:44.954 --> 00:26:48.044
Ben: bad, I'm not, I'm not saying
it's a bad movie by any means.
00:26:48.044 --> 00:26:51.434
I'm just saying this, this
is not a hard ranking to
00:26:51.584 --> 00:26:53.114
Ivy: No, it's not.
00:26:53.276 --> 00:26:55.466
Ben: But yeah, so there's ghosts.
00:26:55.496 --> 00:26:58.826
We learn way more about, you
know, the characters in the world.
00:26:58.826 --> 00:27:04.459
But after Casas goes into
town to sell his weird fucking
00:27:04.859 --> 00:27:05.549
Jeremy: this dead baby.
00:27:07.079 --> 00:27:07.559
Ben: Excuse
00:27:07.799 --> 00:27:10.979
Susan: Yeah, the dead baby juice
was a little bit disturbing to me.
00:27:10.979 --> 00:27:13.499
That was like the most disturbing
thing about the whole movie to me.
00:27:13.899 --> 00:27:17.919
Ben: that almost felt like he made the
whole movie, couldn't come up with a good
00:27:17.924 --> 00:27:20.799
title, thought, Ooh, devil's Backbone.
00:27:20.859 --> 00:27:25.629
That title slaps, and then threw a
scene together just to justify it.
00:27:26.029 --> 00:27:26.299
Jeremy: Yeah.
00:27:26.299 --> 00:27:29.756
Cuz the, the idea is that this,
child died because they have
00:27:29.756 --> 00:27:32.846
a, you know, deformation that
they call the Devil's Backbone.
00:27:33.116 --> 00:27:38.039
And it's been preserved in this
this mixture that is primarily rum
00:27:38.039 --> 00:27:44.236
and spices that the the doctor then
sells to men to supposedly cure their
00:27:44.236 --> 00:27:47.236
impotence because guys will drink
anything if they think it'll make, you
00:27:47.236 --> 00:27:48.556
know, take care of their impotence.
00:27:48.804 --> 00:27:49.688
Susan: He drinks it though.
00:27:49.688 --> 00:27:51.018
That was the part that creeped me out.
00:27:51.753 --> 00:27:54.953
Ben: well, I mean, that to me was, you
talk about these characters getting.
00:27:55.838 --> 00:28:00.098
In Internality and getting to be
complicated here is a guy who knows
00:28:00.098 --> 00:28:04.294
its bullshit, is pedalling the
bullshit himself, but even he wants to
00:28:04.299 --> 00:28:07.574
believe in it enough to give it a try,
00:28:07.974 --> 00:28:11.164
Jeremy: He really desperately
wants to not be impotent.
00:28:11.344 --> 00:28:15.521
Like it's, you know, he, he clearly
is, you know, in love with Carmen, but
00:28:15.521 --> 00:28:19.391
cannot physically do anything about
it, which she is desperate for somebody
00:28:19.421 --> 00:28:21.041
to be able to do something about it.
00:28:21.356 --> 00:28:22.556
She's incredibly lonely.
00:28:22.956 --> 00:28:23.986
Ben: Jacinto does.
00:28:24.256 --> 00:28:28.366
J Jacinto is nice to look at if
nothing el and that is the only
00:28:28.366 --> 00:28:30.106
thing that is nice about Jacinto.
00:28:30.463 --> 00:28:35.773
after Kaaris goes into town, he finds out
that he sees that One of the loyalists
00:28:35.823 --> 00:28:41.463
who brought Carlos to the orphanage
has been captured by fascist in a very
00:28:41.463 --> 00:28:46.986
harrowing execution scene that, once
again is not gory, but the violence is
00:28:47.736 --> 00:28:50.286
given full impact and
it's just horrible, fine.
00:28:50.686 --> 00:28:53.896
Jeremy: because like they don't
show him being shot at all.
00:28:54.346 --> 00:28:56.536
They show Casares his reaction to it.
00:28:56.536 --> 00:28:59.896
And every time the gunfires,
it's so loud and Casares like
00:29:00.106 --> 00:29:01.966
jumps every time it happens.
00:29:01.966 --> 00:29:05.716
Cuz it's, it's, you know, obviously
so horrible to watch and you're just
00:29:05.716 --> 00:29:08.606
watching him watching it and it's still so
00:29:08.606 --> 00:29:11.456
Ben: very effective
use of discretion shot.
00:29:11.486 --> 00:29:15.986
It is absolutely a case where not seeing
it as much more effective than seeing it.
00:29:16.526 --> 00:29:20.016
I will say though, when they first
introduced like, Ooh, foreign
00:29:20.426 --> 00:29:22.556
soldiers are in town, are here.
00:29:23.006 --> 00:29:25.766
I did not realize this was
setting up an execution.
00:29:26.126 --> 00:29:27.896
And my first thought was, oh shit.
00:29:27.896 --> 00:29:29.966
Is this where we're gonna
get a Ron Perlman cameo?
00:29:30.366 --> 00:29:30.716
Jeremy: No,
00:29:30.886 --> 00:29:32.026
Ben: We got Americans in here.
00:29:32.266 --> 00:29:33.826
We, we got English speakers in here.
00:29:33.831 --> 00:29:34.946
We is is Perlman here?
00:29:35.066 --> 00:29:37.196
I've been waiting for Ron
Perlman, this whole movie,
00:29:37.596 --> 00:29:40.776
Jeremy: we know, we know Del Toro's
not gonna let him speak Spanish, so.
00:29:40.896 --> 00:29:41.001
Ben: I
00:29:41.001 --> 00:29:41.561
Susan: Right.
00:29:41.561 --> 00:29:44.236
Ben: Perlman not in this movie.
00:29:44.446 --> 00:29:49.476
And while I do believe Ron Perlman is one
of those actors that improves anything
00:29:49.481 --> 00:29:54.656
he's in, he probably would've been a
distraction in this particular film
00:29:55.106 --> 00:29:57.236
about orphans in the Spanish Civil War.
00:29:57.636 --> 00:30:04.366
Coming off of Del Toro doing a
low budget, fun vampire movie.
00:30:05.096 --> 00:30:11.731
Seeing him really be able to lock into
and absolutely deliver on a very somber,
00:30:11.731 --> 00:30:14.221
serious tone with complicated themes.
00:30:14.621 --> 00:30:19.211
I mean, if Cronos was the sense of like,
Ooh, this is a director with potential
00:30:19.611 --> 00:30:24.591
devil's backbones, where you go like,
oh wow, this is this is a director,
00:30:24.596 --> 00:30:26.991
this is a Spielberg level director.
00:30:27.151 --> 00:30:28.771
Like we're watching develop.
00:30:29.171 --> 00:30:29.306
Jeremy: Yeah.
00:30:29.706 --> 00:30:29.946
Yeah.
00:30:29.946 --> 00:30:32.646
I, I think it's interesting too, we
haven't really talked about, there's
00:30:32.646 --> 00:30:36.396
like the sort of, I sent to a subplot
throughout the thing of like he is
00:30:36.396 --> 00:30:41.466
trying to get to the last of the gold
that they're saving for the loyalists,
00:30:41.556 --> 00:30:45.516
which isn't a safe in the kitchen,
which sets up a lot of the like, bad
00:30:45.516 --> 00:30:47.106
shit that happens throughout the movie.
00:30:47.536 --> 00:30:51.376
Um, Is him trying to get into this safe
and part of the deal of how he's doing
00:30:51.376 --> 00:30:55.846
it is anytime he goes to Carmen's room
to sleep with her, he switches out
00:30:56.206 --> 00:31:01.011
some of the keys from her key ring to
go try those on the uh, safe and has
00:31:01.011 --> 00:31:03.051
not managed to find the right one yet.
00:31:03.094 --> 00:31:04.624
Thinks that she doesn't notice.
00:31:04.744 --> 00:31:07.834
We know that she notices cuz
she's, you know, looking at
00:31:07.834 --> 00:31:09.394
the keys at one point earlier
00:31:09.499 --> 00:31:12.709
Ben: Those are two very obvious
elements that I did not connect.
00:31:13.054 --> 00:31:13.564
Jeremy: yeah,
00:31:13.964 --> 00:31:16.394
Ben: I finished out this movie
going, so what was up with the keys?
00:31:16.604 --> 00:31:17.534
And he was having sex.
00:31:17.714 --> 00:31:18.434
That makes sense.
00:31:18.834 --> 00:31:19.254
So, yeah.
00:31:19.524 --> 00:31:24.624
So seeing that one of their loyalist
allies who knows about their orphanage
00:31:24.814 --> 00:31:29.953
and them, and the gold has been
captured Kass convinces Carmen that
00:31:30.343 --> 00:31:33.466
they all have to leave and they
try to take the orphans with them.
00:31:33.976 --> 00:31:40.036
But Jacinto is like, Hey, what if I
take all the gold for myself Instead
00:31:40.556 --> 00:31:42.586
Kass comes out with a gun, we get.
00:31:43.088 --> 00:31:46.638
A bunch of lines comparing guns
to penises as you know, your
00:31:46.638 --> 00:31:48.468
want to do with phallic objects.
00:31:48.868 --> 00:31:55.428
And Jacinto is driven away from
the orphanage for all of about five
00:31:55.433 --> 00:31:59.568
minutes before he comes and lights
a bunch of gas canisters on fire.
00:31:59.968 --> 00:32:06.411
Which then very gruesomely and
tragically kills Carmen a bunch of the
00:32:06.411 --> 00:32:09.259
orphans and mortally wounds, kaaris.
00:32:09.659 --> 00:32:12.989
So you did get this whole thing of
like the one helper lady just like
00:32:13.389 --> 00:32:20.733
trying to fan out this gasoline can
fire for an inordinate amount of time.
00:32:21.188 --> 00:32:22.518
Ivy: I know poor Alma.
00:32:22.783 --> 00:32:26.593
Jeremy: poor Alma, the other
teacher who is only in like really
00:32:26.593 --> 00:32:30.763
three or four scenes prevalently
and decides to put out a gas can
00:32:30.763 --> 00:32:32.563
fire by beating it with a blanket.
00:32:32.963 --> 00:32:36.233
Just to get blown to
smithereens in that scene.
00:32:36.533 --> 00:32:39.143
Ben: they didn't know the gasoline
was poured all the way to the car.
00:32:39.143 --> 00:32:42.909
That the car explosion definitely
was off a, but to a certain
00:32:42.909 --> 00:32:47.079
extent that death's within the
orphanage still was like, get out
00:32:47.479 --> 00:32:47.839
Susan: Yeah,
00:32:47.959 --> 00:32:49.669
Ben: the towel's not gonna win.
00:32:50.269 --> 00:32:54.776
I think it's time to call it go,
which even Carmen's like, okay,
00:32:54.776 --> 00:33:00.536
go Alma is, is whipping that
towel right to the bitter end.
00:33:01.588 --> 00:33:04.351
Jeremy: I think Alma's determined,
you know, that it's, it might take
00:33:04.351 --> 00:33:07.471
her, but she's gonna do anything
she can to try and save the kids.
00:33:07.811 --> 00:33:08.291
Susan: Yeah.
00:33:08.326 --> 00:33:09.041
Ben: doing nothing.
00:33:09.521 --> 00:33:10.271
The towel's doing
00:33:10.526 --> 00:33:10.976
Jeremy: she's
00:33:11.126 --> 00:33:11.426
she's
00:33:11.651 --> 00:33:13.181
Ben: Grab a kid and run.
00:33:13.766 --> 00:33:17.606
Jeremy: now kin is the one who
sees him pouring the gasoline.
00:33:17.906 --> 00:33:21.536
And even though she's incredibly
intimidated and still kind of in love
00:33:21.536 --> 00:33:25.003
with him at this point, does shoot
him in the shoulder with a shotgun.
00:33:25.303 --> 00:33:25.603
You know, it
00:33:25.603 --> 00:33:27.313
doesn't, doesn't take him out.
00:33:27.313 --> 00:33:28.273
But she, she does her.
00:33:29.046 --> 00:33:29.676
Ben: like, ah,
00:33:29.781 --> 00:33:31.881
Susan: and, and Carmen's pretty
heroic cuz she's the one who's
00:33:31.881 --> 00:33:33.231
trying to get Alma out of there
00:33:33.631 --> 00:33:34.201
Ben: Yes.
00:33:34.501 --> 00:33:34.771
Oh yeah.
00:33:34.771 --> 00:33:36.271
No, Carmen's great.
00:33:36.671 --> 00:33:37.631
Susan: with her very heavy leg.
00:33:37.989 --> 00:33:40.353
Ben: this isn't a true
criticism or something.
00:33:40.358 --> 00:33:44.526
It's just like this movie gave
me very little moments that I
00:33:44.526 --> 00:33:46.176
can construe into silliness.
00:33:46.386 --> 00:33:49.806
So I gotta, I gotta take what
silliness I could get from this movie.
00:33:50.206 --> 00:33:56.836
And it was pretty much like Alma with the
towel and the creepy eye, Jesus statue.
00:33:57.236 --> 00:33:58.646
That was way too bloody.
00:33:59.046 --> 00:34:03.953
But yeah, so after that COTA uh,
walks like a g to try to get
00:34:03.953 --> 00:34:06.153
help from around town and Dr.
00:34:06.153 --> 00:34:08.253
Casares, oh, poor Dr.
00:34:08.253 --> 00:34:08.763
Casares.
00:34:08.783 --> 00:34:10.366
You know, he can't hear anything.
00:34:10.366 --> 00:34:12.506
He can't hear Carmen's dying words.
00:34:12.506 --> 00:34:16.333
So instead reads her a dying
poem That's real, fucking sad.
00:34:16.733 --> 00:34:21.079
And then just lives long enough
to taunt Jacinto and go, ha,
00:34:21.079 --> 00:34:22.829
I'm still alive before then.
00:34:22.829 --> 00:34:24.209
Immediately dying.
00:34:24.738 --> 00:34:26.043
Jeremy: Yeah, it scares
him off for a little bit.
00:34:26.323 --> 00:34:27.983
Ben: Yeah, he buys time.
00:34:28.031 --> 00:34:30.057
He makes a vow strong enough
to then become a ghost.
00:34:30.437 --> 00:34:33.967
Jeremy: Jacinto does come back with
his two henchmen who um, we don't
00:34:33.972 --> 00:34:38.727
really learn much about other than
that they are, Both not loyalists
00:34:38.727 --> 00:34:40.617
and also afraid of the fascists.
00:34:40.617 --> 00:34:43.557
They seem to be just all around bad dudes.
00:34:43.807 --> 00:34:47.522
Down to the point that one of them is just
named El Puerco like he's just The Pig.
00:34:47.522 --> 00:34:49.327
Ben: He, well, he is, he is.
00:34:49.507 --> 00:34:52.307
He is big and literally named Pig.
00:34:52.807 --> 00:34:58.317
But we learned he has a brother
in Portugal, so Hey, hey.
00:34:58.617 --> 00:35:00.567
No, that's not a character trade at all.
00:35:00.627 --> 00:35:01.527
That that's nothing.
00:35:01.927 --> 00:35:03.497
Jeremy: It's the best thing
he's got going for him.
00:35:03.557 --> 00:35:04.277
He has a brother.
00:35:04.677 --> 00:35:06.957
Ben: yeah, so they lock up the kids.
00:35:07.067 --> 00:35:11.657
And Jaime kind of rallies the troops to
be like, what if we make, we're tiny,
00:35:12.167 --> 00:35:14.567
but spears can be sharp, which is.
00:35:14.967 --> 00:35:16.917
Very sound logic and fuck yeah.
00:35:16.917 --> 00:35:19.347
How did I not pick up on the
mammoth element from earlier?
00:35:19.347 --> 00:35:20.967
Fuck, that's just staring
me right in the face.
00:35:21.207 --> 00:35:24.301
I'd like to think I'd have caught
that on a rewatch, but who knows?
00:35:24.701 --> 00:35:30.471
And Galvez gets hurt and twist his ankle
and even though he, again, he can just
00:35:30.471 --> 00:35:35.131
fucking hop on one leg, it's right around
the fucking corner, let 'em all out.
00:35:35.531 --> 00:35:37.361
He just kind of rests, takes a breather.
00:35:37.451 --> 00:35:41.581
So, ghost Saaris comes and
opens the door, which I like.
00:35:41.586 --> 00:35:45.061
I love Ghost cuz Saaris, that
was a really nice moment.
00:35:45.461 --> 00:35:46.811
Jeremy: It's so interesting
that we never see him.
00:35:47.211 --> 00:35:52.721
Like we just see like the sort of
same elements we've seen of, you
00:35:52.721 --> 00:35:57.601
know, The the Dead Ghost before is
like, oh, you see enough of 'em to
00:35:57.601 --> 00:35:59.461
be like, that person is not alive.
00:35:59.861 --> 00:36:00.301
Susan: Right.
00:36:00.301 --> 00:36:02.941
I guess we just see the silhouette
of him at the end, right.
00:36:03.341 --> 00:36:06.936
Ben: Yeah, you see like his shoulder
and like flies and like his his
00:36:06.936 --> 00:36:10.096
handkerchief, you can tell where
his ghost is cuz handkerchiefs.
00:36:10.496 --> 00:36:13.556
And yeah, so pretty much like when
they can't find the gold, the two
00:36:13.556 --> 00:36:18.449
henchmen are like, Hey, you're
a weirdo, creepy loser orphan.
00:36:18.796 --> 00:36:20.196
after you stabbed your girlfriend.
00:36:20.196 --> 00:36:22.926
And then told us that like, oh, and
there's the whole scene where they're
00:36:22.931 --> 00:36:26.626
showing where he is like showing
his, the hench guys his baby photos
00:36:27.196 --> 00:36:29.176
and they could not be less into it
00:36:29.576 --> 00:36:30.066
Susan: Yeah.
00:36:30.191 --> 00:36:32.051
Ben: they just fucking bounce on him.
00:36:32.321 --> 00:36:37.061
Really just leaving Jacinto to get,
as we mentioned, sped by a bunch of
00:36:37.061 --> 00:36:43.005
small children and then drown, choked
by a ghost, which yeah, honestly a
00:36:43.010 --> 00:36:44.734
faith that was completely deserved.
00:36:44.949 --> 00:36:47.599
Jeremy: He does, he Does,
find the gold, which ends up
00:36:47.604 --> 00:36:49.059
being part of what kills him.
00:36:49.309 --> 00:36:49.669
Ivy: Yeah.
00:36:49.729 --> 00:36:50.599
It weighs him down.
00:36:51.184 --> 00:36:51.514
Susan: Yep.
00:36:51.514 --> 00:36:52.024
That's the best
00:36:52.204 --> 00:36:56.374
Ben: Ah, that is dramatic irony.
00:36:56.674 --> 00:36:57.634
I think
00:36:58.034 --> 00:37:02.204
Jeremy: Yeah, the, the, gold is an Alma's
leg, which she sort of tells us earlier.
00:37:02.204 --> 00:37:04.424
She is talking about
how heavy her leg feels.
00:37:04.934 --> 00:37:10.512
Um, and then, he, he finds it just before
the bad get, before the buffoons take off.
00:37:10.512 --> 00:37:13.662
And uh, he's like, well, I'm just
gonna tie this around my belt
00:37:13.662 --> 00:37:15.072
and stuff, my pockets with it.
00:37:15.472 --> 00:37:18.232
And then he ends up in
a large thing of water.
00:37:18.582 --> 00:37:21.022
Ben: I loved the reveal
though, in the leg.
00:37:21.422 --> 00:37:25.837
Because like they'd done such a good
job establishing Carmen's emotional
00:37:25.837 --> 00:37:31.177
relationship to this prosthetic leg
and her feelings of it that in this
00:37:31.177 --> 00:37:35.827
moment of great emotional turmoil and
stress, she says it's heavier than ever.
00:37:36.217 --> 00:37:40.237
I didn't think about it that, but then
when you get the reveal that she hid
00:37:40.237 --> 00:37:44.227
the golden there, and you think back to
that, I'm just like, fucking Del Toro.
00:37:44.227 --> 00:37:45.637
You did it again.
00:37:47.347 --> 00:37:48.997
Susan: There's nothing
that he doesn't tell us.
00:37:48.997 --> 00:37:51.997
Like he, he plays so fair the whole time.
00:37:52.447 --> 00:37:55.987
You know, you even had the histo
with Conchita way early in the
00:37:55.987 --> 00:37:59.977
movie, talking about how someday
he's gonna come blow this place up,
00:38:00.377 --> 00:38:00.557
Ivy: Yeah.
00:38:00.767 --> 00:38:04.077
Susan: you know, his feelings about
this orphanage, then he does it.
00:38:04.617 --> 00:38:09.327
Ben: Del Toro managed to make a
fucking cigar ring into an object
00:38:09.327 --> 00:38:16.667
of an that of such emotional
weight that Jaime's murderous rage.
00:38:17.232 --> 00:38:20.382
Was so sympathetic and
understood by the audience.
00:38:20.382 --> 00:38:21.432
And you're with him.
00:38:21.832 --> 00:38:22.702
This is a good move.
00:38:23.002 --> 00:38:26.662
Alright, so they all die and then
the orphans go to town to find help.
00:38:26.922 --> 00:38:29.682
The end to the worst recap I've ever done.
00:38:29.682 --> 00:38:30.606
I'm sorry.
00:38:30.866 --> 00:38:31.316
Jeremy: Nah.
00:38:31.436 --> 00:38:32.576
It was, it was good.
00:38:32.656 --> 00:38:37.186
It's a hard movie to recap because
so much of it is like just character
00:38:37.186 --> 00:38:41.836
building and this like just being in
this enclosed space where like they can't
00:38:41.836 --> 00:38:46.396
go out, they're a day and a half walk
from anything, and it's a war out there.
00:38:46.546 --> 00:38:51.596
Like, you know, they're all sort of
locked in here, boiling up the whole time.
00:38:51.996 --> 00:38:53.526
Ben: it's great use of setting.
00:38:53.926 --> 00:38:55.796
I mean, just the background of the war.
00:38:55.842 --> 00:38:59.079
This orphanage, this small
amount of people, and then the
00:38:59.084 --> 00:39:00.939
fucking bomb in the courtyard.
00:39:01.389 --> 00:39:05.082
I mean, it's, the movie excels
at location and atmosphere.
00:39:05.817 --> 00:39:07.887
Like character through location.
00:39:08.287 --> 00:39:13.441
Ivy: Del Toro has talked about and I, I
think it's really interesting how layered
00:39:13.441 --> 00:39:15.151
this is throughout the characterization.
00:39:15.151 --> 00:39:19.461
Also the setting where he talks
about how he felt that, you know,
00:39:19.461 --> 00:39:24.321
the Anti-fascists in the Spanish
Civil War felt abandoned by Europe.
00:39:24.321 --> 00:39:24.471
Right.
00:39:24.471 --> 00:39:28.251
And you hear them talk about that
when Zara and Carmen are like, maybe,
00:39:28.251 --> 00:39:29.601
you know, someone will come help us.
00:39:29.601 --> 00:39:30.951
And they're like, no
one's coming to help us.
00:39:31.251 --> 00:39:32.901
You know, they felt abandoned.
00:39:32.901 --> 00:39:36.531
And then you have an orphanage, like
a literal metaphor for abandonment
00:39:36.531 --> 00:39:38.571
in some, you know, in some ways.
00:39:38.571 --> 00:39:42.901
And it's this very isolating,
abandoned thing that's then
00:39:43.021 --> 00:39:44.461
reflected throughout the characters.
00:39:44.461 --> 00:39:49.141
You know, Heto feels used and
abandoned, like Santi feels abandoned.
00:39:49.141 --> 00:39:53.251
Like it's this very echoing theme
throughout it, which is part
00:39:53.251 --> 00:39:55.651
of what makes it such a bummer.
00:39:55.977 --> 00:39:57.957
Ben: It's not a happy movie.
00:39:58.357 --> 00:39:58.707
Ivy: No.
00:39:59.147 --> 00:40:02.147
Ben: I mean, I love, like, let's
Carmen's taunt a prince without a
00:40:02.147 --> 00:40:04.667
kingdom that she taunts, Jacinto with.
00:40:04.877 --> 00:40:05.297
Ivy: Yeah.
00:40:05.437 --> 00:40:08.977
Ben: I mean, she, she calls him
the saddest orphan of them all.
00:40:09.234 --> 00:40:09.564
Ivy: Yeah.
00:40:10.754 --> 00:40:14.484
Jeremy: Which is true, it's true, but
00:40:14.784 --> 00:40:15.174
Ben: Yeah.
00:40:16.074 --> 00:40:19.104
Like imagine looking someone
in the eye and going, you, you
00:40:19.104 --> 00:40:21.234
are the loneliest boyfriend.
00:40:21.634 --> 00:40:25.094
Batman had Alfred, but you nobody.
00:40:25.494 --> 00:40:27.464
Susan: I think it's that sense
of it, it's the way that they're
00:40:27.674 --> 00:40:30.794
juxtaposing his experience of
being a boy in the orphanage.
00:40:30.794 --> 00:40:32.504
And Carlos's, right?
00:40:32.894 --> 00:40:36.314
Where Carlos finds his community,
he finds his band of boys.
00:40:36.314 --> 00:40:40.754
And, and even Jaime has ultimately
that group, you know, he has
00:40:40.754 --> 00:40:42.524
Carlos's acceptance in the end.
00:40:42.529 --> 00:40:46.184
And, you know, he has his
little, you know, bully friends.
00:40:46.544 --> 00:40:50.054
And then there's this one kid, this
heto, who could just never make
00:40:50.054 --> 00:40:51.914
a connection with anyone really.
00:40:52.334 --> 00:40:54.074
And just the, the cost of that.
00:40:54.074 --> 00:40:57.044
And just like, that's, that's for
me, like I felt so much compassion
00:40:57.344 --> 00:41:00.164
for Heto, like right up until
he started killing children.
00:41:00.164 --> 00:41:02.204
And then I was like, not so much.
00:41:02.444 --> 00:41:06.174
Ben: I mean, remind me of that, you
know, proverb, like the, you know, the
00:41:06.174 --> 00:41:11.124
child not, you know, something, I'm,
I'm utterly mangling it, but you know,
00:41:11.124 --> 00:41:15.514
something about like the, you know, the
child who's not warmed by the fire of the
00:41:15.514 --> 00:41:17.644
village will burn it down for the heat.
00:41:18.219 --> 00:41:18.539
Ivy: Mm-hmm.
00:41:18.939 --> 00:41:22.189
Ben: You know, something about if a
community doesn't take care of its
00:41:22.189 --> 00:41:24.619
own, its abandoned, can destroy it.
00:41:25.839 --> 00:41:27.259
I'm mangling the idiom.
00:41:27.949 --> 00:41:29.259
Susan: I, thought you just made
it up, but I thought it was
00:41:29.429 --> 00:41:30.159
Ivy: That's it.
00:41:30.159 --> 00:41:31.799
It's applicable either way.
00:41:32.424 --> 00:41:34.104
Jeremy: yeah, works.
00:41:34.854 --> 00:41:37.854
I, I think it's interesting the, the
different parallels in this movie
00:41:37.854 --> 00:41:41.954
because one that go Deltoro has
talked about is that all of the heroic
00:41:41.954 --> 00:41:47.597
characters in this movie uh, are sea
names Carmen, Casares, Carlos Conchita
00:41:47.977 --> 00:41:50.317
and there's two that are j names.
00:41:50.317 --> 00:41:53.557
There's Jacinto and Jaime, and
they're, they're names, they're
00:41:53.957 --> 00:41:56.697
characters who are bullies.
00:41:56.787 --> 00:41:59.937
And Jaime chooses to change
and Jacinto does not.
00:42:00.087 --> 00:42:04.287
And I, I think that is an interesting
comparison of, of those two is like,
00:42:04.537 --> 00:42:10.342
I think Jaime could be Jacinto but
he, he chooses not to be, he chooses,
00:42:10.672 --> 00:42:12.472
you know, to care about people.
00:42:12.663 --> 00:42:16.569
Ben: Jacinto is, what Jaime would've
been if hadn't brought comic books with.
00:42:18.084 --> 00:42:19.644
Ivy: the power of comics.
00:42:20.184 --> 00:42:20.424
Ben: Like
00:42:22.192 --> 00:42:24.489
Ivy: But I think there is like,
one of the things in this, and
00:42:24.489 --> 00:42:29.749
also in Pans Labyrinth, there's
this like fantasy of choice, right?
00:42:29.839 --> 00:42:35.599
Like, they are in a situation where
they have no choices in both of
00:42:35.604 --> 00:42:39.409
those movies, you know, the war, the
Spanish, civil War, these are children.
00:42:39.409 --> 00:42:40.879
They have no effect on this.
00:42:40.879 --> 00:42:45.749
And so there's this, like, the
fairytale aspect of them both
00:42:45.749 --> 00:42:47.639
is kind of this choice, right?
00:42:47.639 --> 00:42:51.149
You know, Jaime makes this choice to
change and like, you know, there's
00:42:51.149 --> 00:42:56.409
this choice to stab this guy to death
and try to find your own way out,
00:42:56.409 --> 00:43:00.319
even though that's like completely
doesn't make any sense, you know?
00:43:01.999 --> 00:43:06.199
You know, there's a choice to help
Santi rather than be afraid of him.
00:43:06.409 --> 00:43:10.639
Like I think that's something that's
really beautiful about the way he portrays
00:43:10.639 --> 00:43:15.149
children, is he gives them a lot of agency
and a lot of ability to make choices.
00:43:15.589 --> 00:43:18.079
And I think that's also
something you don't see a lot
00:43:18.079 --> 00:43:19.519
in narratives about children.
00:43:19.679 --> 00:43:22.049
And I think that more things should have
00:43:22.449 --> 00:43:25.389
Susan: Anybody else think about the
Lord of the Flies when they're standing
00:43:25.389 --> 00:43:27.939
there and they're making the spears
and they're standing there with the
00:43:28.209 --> 00:43:28.719
Ivy: totally.
00:43:30.029 --> 00:43:30.229
Susan: thing,
00:43:30.234 --> 00:43:31.539
the thing that struck me about that is
00:43:31.764 --> 00:43:34.194
Ben: oh, fucking are any
of these kids named Simon?
00:43:34.314 --> 00:43:34.494
Someone?
00:43:34.959 --> 00:43:35.979
Susan: right, right.
00:43:35.979 --> 00:43:38.929
We, we know there's a pig out there,
but but the thing is, they, they're
00:43:38.929 --> 00:43:42.109
not, I mean, yeah, sure they do stab
the guy to death, but it is kind of
00:43:42.109 --> 00:43:46.619
in self-defense and they don't, they
don't become the savages that, you
00:43:46.619 --> 00:43:50.299
know, the kids in the Lord of the flies
become like they don't turn on each.
00:43:50.699 --> 00:43:54.209
And they do defend themselves
against the one monster.
00:43:54.609 --> 00:43:58.979
Ben: yeah, I think, I think part of
that is just icon is iconography.
00:43:59.249 --> 00:44:05.819
Like I think the idea of a group of
school age boys together with no adults
00:44:05.819 --> 00:44:09.969
armed with spears, it's hard to see
that and not thank Lord of the Flies.
00:44:10.229 --> 00:44:11.429
it's the mammoth metaphor.
00:44:11.712 --> 00:44:16.372
it is a group of weak individuals
forming a tribe together with
00:44:16.372 --> 00:44:18.752
which they can defeat a monster or
00:44:18.757 --> 00:44:18.932
a
00:44:19.272 --> 00:44:22.452
Susan: says when she's teaching them
about the mammoth, when she's teaching
00:44:22.457 --> 00:44:24.552
them about the mammoth in class?
00:44:24.552 --> 00:44:25.602
She says something, doesn't she?
00:44:25.602 --> 00:44:26.722
About about
00:44:26.932 --> 00:44:27.322
no one
00:44:27.322 --> 00:44:27.502
could.
00:44:28.292 --> 00:44:29.522
Yeah, nobody could give up.
00:44:30.122 --> 00:44:30.902
Is that what she says?
00:44:31.227 --> 00:44:31.442
Jeremy: Yeah.
00:44:31.842 --> 00:44:32.622
Susan: No, I just thought of that.
00:44:33.022 --> 00:44:33.562
Jesus
00:44:33.682 --> 00:44:35.302
Jeremy: Yeah, it's, it's, interesting
00:44:35.302 --> 00:44:35.602
because.
00:44:35.632 --> 00:44:36.052
Ben: movie.
00:44:36.452 --> 00:44:39.302
Jeremy: You know, I, I did also think
of Lord of the Flies, but the other
00:44:39.302 --> 00:44:42.432
thing that I keep thinking is like,
the initial setup for this movie is
00:44:42.432 --> 00:44:44.142
the same as The Chronicles of Narnia.
00:44:44.362 --> 00:44:48.036
That like, there's a war going on and
they're being shipped off to somewhere
00:44:48.036 --> 00:44:50.616
else to be safe during the war.
00:44:50.946 --> 00:44:54.636
And then they encounter weird,
magical elements at that place.
00:44:54.866 --> 00:44:57.326
Not nearly as much fun
as Chronicles of Narnia.
00:44:57.699 --> 00:45:01.099
Uh, It's much more, starving
and uh, being killed.
00:45:01.459 --> 00:45:05.299
But, you know, it is sort of the
same like, you know, en encountering
00:45:05.299 --> 00:45:09.382
this magical world when you're,
you're shipped off because the
00:45:09.382 --> 00:45:10.932
adults are ruining everyth.
00:45:11.332 --> 00:45:12.302
Susan: I have, I have a question.
00:45:12.302 --> 00:45:13.702
Maybe you guys can answer it for me.
00:45:14.092 --> 00:45:15.712
What were the grains of strength?
00:45:16.112 --> 00:45:17.822
You know, Canta would give
them that little thing.
00:45:17.822 --> 00:45:20.342
It looked like communion and
she'd say grain of strength.
00:45:20.342 --> 00:45:21.152
Grain of strength.
00:45:21.692 --> 00:45:24.542
I could never figure out what
it was she was giving them
00:45:24.942 --> 00:45:25.692
Ivy: I don't know.
00:45:25.692 --> 00:45:31.409
So part of what I think is interesting,
and I wonder if this hits different
00:45:31.409 --> 00:45:33.549
if you're not an escaped Catholic,
00:45:34.599 --> 00:45:35.019
Ben: Yeah, I-
00:45:35.469 --> 00:45:36.369
Ivy: but um.
00:45:36.492 --> 00:45:38.772
Ben: Maybe this is the Jewish
in me, but I just saw that
00:45:38.772 --> 00:45:40.072
and I'm like, ah, goyim shit.
00:45:41.632 --> 00:45:42.252
Goyim.
00:45:42.622 --> 00:45:43.912
Well, I, I don't need to know,
00:45:44.872 --> 00:45:48.862
Susan: kinda anti-Catholic, like they've
hidden the crucifix, they've, they've
00:45:48.862 --> 00:45:52.282
rejected it and then they bring it
back out cuz they know the fascists who
00:45:52.282 --> 00:45:53.842
are the Catholics are gonna show up.
00:45:53.902 --> 00:45:54.802
Ivy: Exactly.
00:45:54.832 --> 00:45:59.002
So I do, I wonder if it is that, if
it's posing, you know, if it's part of.
00:46:00.517 --> 00:46:04.337
Or just adopting the iconography
of Catholicism since they're in
00:46:04.342 --> 00:46:06.937
this weird fake Catholic situation.
00:46:06.937 --> 00:46:07.447
I don't know.
00:46:07.447 --> 00:46:10.855
I've never, in my brain, I
just went, oh, it's communion.
00:46:11.786 --> 00:46:15.686
Ben: That's kind of what my brain went
to, but No, you're, you're totally right.
00:46:15.686 --> 00:46:19.246
These are, they're like atheists probably.
00:46:20.786 --> 00:46:22.046
What the fuck was that?
00:46:22.046 --> 00:46:24.386
Goddamn, that's a great question.
00:46:24.786 --> 00:46:25.296
Shit,
00:46:25.851 --> 00:46:30.261
Jeremy: Okay, so, uh, Guillermo del Toro
has answered this question on Twitter.
00:46:30.517 --> 00:46:31.177
Um,
00:46:31.287 --> 00:46:31.732
Ben: Nevermind.
00:46:31.732 --> 00:46:32.122
We're gonna get
00:46:32.257 --> 00:46:32.677
Jeremy: it is
00:46:32.802 --> 00:46:32.882
Susan: right.
00:46:32.992 --> 00:46:33.642
Thank God.
00:46:34.510 --> 00:46:37.570
Jeremy: um, But one grain per
kid was given for breakfast,
00:46:37.835 --> 00:46:38.105
so,
00:46:38.930 --> 00:46:39.920
Susan: Like a little coffee bee.
00:46:40.235 --> 00:46:42.155
Jeremy: it's a little grain of coffee.
00:46:42.620 --> 00:46:45.470
Ivy: Hey, green of strength,
I, I also feel that
00:46:45.770 --> 00:46:46.130
Ben: Yeah,
00:46:46.130 --> 00:46:47.180
Ivy: grain of strength to me.
00:46:47.270 --> 00:46:47.750
Ben: makes sense.
00:46:47.750 --> 00:46:52.130
Like we, we don't, we don't have, we
don't have Jesus, but we do have coffee.
00:46:53.900 --> 00:46:56.703
That's the, the gift of
the mind that checks out.
00:46:57.178 --> 00:46:57.598
Susan: Yep.
00:46:57.813 --> 00:46:58.423
Love it.
00:46:58.568 --> 00:47:01.792
Ben: So, what else do we have to
say about, do we have any other
00:47:01.792 --> 00:47:05.572
particular moments or themes we
wanna discuss or should we kind of,
00:47:05.572 --> 00:47:09.352
uh, start steering in towards our
uh, final discussion topics there?
00:47:09.637 --> 00:47:12.526
Jeremy: I, I did wanna talk about uh,
we've talked about it to some extent
00:47:12.526 --> 00:47:16.588
already, but I think this movie uh,
does a great job of, for a limited
00:47:16.593 --> 00:47:22.348
female cast being pretty feminist, like
the two female characters who are of
00:47:22.348 --> 00:47:29.188
concern in this story, like are both
very well represented and deep charact.
00:47:29.973 --> 00:47:34.543
And, you know, as much of a, as much
of a hero as there is in this film.
00:47:34.633 --> 00:47:40.083
Like they're, they're both, I mean, Kinta
despite being, you know, older than most
00:47:40.083 --> 00:47:41.733
of them there, but still pretty young.
00:47:41.733 --> 00:47:48.693
And you know, should, she would be pretty
e even if her ex-boyfriend wasn't driving
00:47:48.693 --> 00:47:52.703
around in a Jeep trying to murder her,
she would still be pretty vulnerable
00:47:52.703 --> 00:47:54.533
out there in the desert by herself.
00:47:54.933 --> 00:47:59.553
But she, you know, takes it on
herself to be a g and go out there
00:47:59.553 --> 00:48:03.043
and like, walk a day and a half to
try and get, you know, the rest of
00:48:03.043 --> 00:48:04.453
these kids, some kind of rescue.
00:48:04.853 --> 00:48:09.763
She, you know, she is also the only
one who, until the spears come out,
00:48:09.763 --> 00:48:14.323
puts a, puts a dent in Jacinto, he
does shoot him right in the shoulder
00:48:14.723 --> 00:48:18.623
Susan: I like the way that they start
out with both Carmen and Conchita as
00:48:18.623 --> 00:48:24.313
being kind of stereotypical, you know,
Carmen's sort of the severe you know,
00:48:25.348 --> 00:48:29.548
Orphanage matron, you know, she appears
to be sort of unloving and, and tough.
00:48:29.828 --> 00:48:32.858
And then Kinta just seems to be sort
of the demure, as you pointed out
00:48:32.858 --> 00:48:38.738
earlier, like the lover of Heto,
just this sort of wimpy kind of gal.
00:48:39.128 --> 00:48:45.778
And then we see them, you know, kind of
more deeply as the, the film goes on.
00:48:46.108 --> 00:48:49.138
And we see, you know, Carmen
as a fairly complex person.
00:48:49.478 --> 00:48:51.218
We see her as a sexual person.
00:48:51.518 --> 00:48:56.768
We see her as, you know, this very
conflicted, you know, emotional
00:48:56.768 --> 00:48:59.828
person that is very different from the
person we meet at the very beginning.
00:49:00.278 --> 00:49:04.238
And, you know, and I think Conchita,
one of the things I love about that
00:49:04.238 --> 00:49:09.008
last scene with Histo is that she's
specifically refusing to apologize.
00:49:09.208 --> 00:49:13.068
Like there's that, that, that way
that women are constantly having to
00:49:13.068 --> 00:49:18.198
apologize to men for men's bad behavior,
and she's just not gonna have it.
00:49:18.198 --> 00:49:20.298
Like, that's the thing
she's refusing to do.
00:49:20.598 --> 00:49:24.348
That's why he stabs her because
he, he, she will not kneel to him.
00:49:24.768 --> 00:49:26.268
And I just thought that
was super powerful.
00:49:26.668 --> 00:49:31.498
Ben: I mean, there's a lot to, I mean,
he says you're making a fool out of me.
00:49:32.458 --> 00:49:34.348
And that warrants death in his mind.
00:49:35.178 --> 00:49:35.598
You,
00:49:35.643 --> 00:49:37.993
Jeremy: He's worried about looking
like a fool in front of the.
00:49:38.008 --> 00:49:38.428
Ben: Lauren's
00:49:38.803 --> 00:49:39.413
Susan: Mm-hmm.
00:49:40.258 --> 00:49:41.548
Ivy: A guy named the Pig.
00:49:42.358 --> 00:49:46.078
Ben: how, how dare you, me look
bad in front of like these two
00:49:46.668 --> 00:49:49.008
got gotta look good for my brows.
00:49:49.408 --> 00:49:49.858
Ivy: Yeah.
00:49:49.918 --> 00:49:52.665
It's funny cuz I didn't wanna
like the lead with this in
00:49:52.665 --> 00:49:53.925
case anybody didn't like it.
00:49:53.925 --> 00:49:56.505
This is my favorite movie
ever made by humans.
00:49:57.040 --> 00:49:58.323
Um, And
00:49:58.833 --> 00:50:00.423
uh, It's a good.
00:50:00.423 --> 00:50:01.653
it's a pretty good movie.
00:50:01.776 --> 00:50:05.736
So the first time I made my
now husband watch it, when we
00:50:05.736 --> 00:50:07.296
finished it, he was like, wow.
00:50:07.386 --> 00:50:11.406
I was like, yeah, we were both, he was
like, it's about toxic masculinity.
00:50:11.406 --> 00:50:15.471
And I was like, Somewhat, but it's true.
00:50:15.471 --> 00:50:21.031
I mean, hen does represent this
like toxic male machos thing and
00:50:21.031 --> 00:50:22.471
it's, again, it's that choice.
00:50:22.471 --> 00:50:27.811
Like he's chosen to forsake
anything that goes against that.
00:50:28.111 --> 00:50:32.491
This is what he thinks he needs to
do to survive in this world that
00:50:32.751 --> 00:50:35.821
they're in, which we know is a
choice that people make in real life
00:50:35.821 --> 00:50:37.621
when they lean into that stuff too.
00:50:38.011 --> 00:50:38.521
You know?
00:50:38.631 --> 00:50:38.961
I don't know.
00:50:38.961 --> 00:50:44.161
He's got so much depth as a villain,
even though he is also kind of a picture.
00:50:44.161 --> 00:50:48.061
Perfect example of Yeah, like that
toxic masculine, like, you're not gonna
00:50:48.061 --> 00:50:50.255
make me look bad in front of the pig
00:50:50.865 --> 00:50:51.718
woman.
00:50:51.785 --> 00:50:54.725
Susan: I mean, I think it's also
interesting that Histo is like almost
00:50:54.725 --> 00:50:56.795
the most beautiful character in the film.
00:50:56.795 --> 00:51:00.015
I mean, he's just a
very, very beautiful man.
00:51:00.015 --> 00:51:03.015
And I just think that what
they're playing with in terms of
00:51:03.015 --> 00:51:04.425
like, he's not an ugly villain.
00:51:04.425 --> 00:51:07.185
He's not, you know, a
scarred you know, guy.
00:51:07.185 --> 00:51:11.940
He's, he represents the sort of, That
sort of beautiful man who should have
00:51:11.970 --> 00:51:16.050
everything, and yet he's a pathetic loser
and he can't manage to get anything.
00:51:16.320 --> 00:51:17.490
Ivy: prince without a Kingdom.
00:51:17.890 --> 00:51:20.650
Jeremy: Yeah, he almost seems to
have a sort of like resentment
00:51:20.650 --> 00:51:22.510
that he's not out there in the war.
00:51:22.900 --> 00:51:24.760
Like he's bringing the war here.
00:51:24.760 --> 00:51:28.960
He's finding people to fight despite
the fact that like he is in this one
00:51:28.960 --> 00:51:33.040
place that like, to this point has
more or less been spared from the war.
00:51:33.045 --> 00:51:37.330
Like to the point of almost magical
happenings that, you know, that bomb
00:51:37.330 --> 00:51:41.145
falls in the middle of the orphanage
and does not blow up is a miracle.
00:51:41.585 --> 00:51:42.785
And like he.
00:51:44.260 --> 00:51:48.540
Determined to bring that sort of
destruction to this place just because he
00:51:48.540 --> 00:51:52.590
can't, he, he doesn't rule it, you know,
he can't have whatever he wants here.
00:51:53.130 --> 00:51:53.370
Ivy: Yeah.
00:51:53.770 --> 00:51:54.160
Jeremy: I don't know.
00:51:54.610 --> 00:51:56.050
It's, it's really interesting.
00:51:56.120 --> 00:52:01.200
And yeah, it, the way it deals
with masculinity and toxic versions
00:52:01.200 --> 00:52:05.050
of masculinity in particular
is very fascinating to me.
00:52:05.590 --> 00:52:08.080
Ivy: And e even Zara kind of
is in that though, like we
00:52:08.080 --> 00:52:09.160
were talking about earlier.
00:52:09.160 --> 00:52:10.493
Like he's drinking.
00:52:11.025 --> 00:52:17.201
Baby punch, to cure his impotence, you
know, because I think that, you know, he
00:52:17.201 --> 00:52:24.201
feels he can't be man enough, for Carmen,
like throughout and then you see the boys
00:52:24.681 --> 00:52:26.591
being tender and supportive of each other.
00:52:26.931 --> 00:52:30.141
You know, it gives a lot of different
nuanced pictures of masculinity, I think.
00:52:30.541 --> 00:52:34.211
Susan: You guys think about the sort
of male testing of each other that the
00:52:34.211 --> 00:52:38.641
boys do of, you know, when Carlos is
coming back with a picture of water and
00:52:38.641 --> 00:52:42.575
the, the boys have got the slingshots
at him and, Jaime's basically, pranking
00:52:42.575 --> 00:52:44.645
him when they go to get the water.
00:52:44.645 --> 00:52:49.855
And this idea of, boys or men making
each other, prove something in order
00:52:49.855 --> 00:52:54.001
to be part of the team in order to
like, be worthy of your companionship.
00:52:54.401 --> 00:52:57.971
I mean, how does that fit into the
whole toxic masculinity analysis?
00:52:58.371 --> 00:52:58.782
Jeremy: I don't know.
00:52:58.787 --> 00:53:04.121
They, they seem to, they seem to initially
have, I mean obviously Jaime is sort of
00:53:04.121 --> 00:53:07.391
the linger ringleader in this, that some
of the other kids wouldn't, wouldn't
00:53:07.396 --> 00:53:09.581
be doing this if it weren't for him.
00:53:09.891 --> 00:53:13.398
And, you know, they sort of fall in behind
him because he's the big, tough kid.
00:53:13.458 --> 00:53:17.016
Especially I guess since Santi
died, He has made himself tougher.
00:53:17.436 --> 00:53:17.886
But
00:53:17.886 --> 00:53:18.306
I,
00:53:18.351 --> 00:53:19.101
Ben: taller.
00:53:19.611 --> 00:53:21.921
He, he still looks like a stiff
breeze, can knock him over.
00:53:22.836 --> 00:53:24.966
Jeremy: I mean that's mostly
cuz it would catch his ears.
00:53:25.290 --> 00:53:30.703
I, it was, it was striking me how this kid
who is essentially the villain and this
00:53:31.033 --> 00:53:37.670
looks very much like a kid who might be
cast as a weak kid in, in another movie.
00:53:37.998 --> 00:53:38.560
I don't know.
00:53:38.590 --> 00:53:40.340
He reminds me of somebody.
00:53:41.130 --> 00:53:44.520
Ben: he rules by literally
towering over all the other kids.
00:53:44.590 --> 00:53:46.690
Like he has a full head
on a lot of these kids.
00:53:46.690 --> 00:53:47.410
He is so much
00:53:47.770 --> 00:53:48.130
Jeremy: Yeah.
00:53:48.256 --> 00:53:51.106
Susan: And they all, they all think he
had something to do with Santi's death.
00:53:51.856 --> 00:53:54.153
They're, they're scared of him because
they think he had something to do with
00:53:54.153 --> 00:53:56.443
Santi's death that helped, that helps his
00:53:56.713 --> 00:53:57.013
Ben: Which,
00:53:57.733 --> 00:54:01.783
I mean, the, the movie does play
it like you're not sure, like when
00:54:01.783 --> 00:54:06.553
Carlos looks through his notebook and
finds the drawing of Santi of San.
00:54:07.408 --> 00:54:12.315
With the head wound, like it's
an effective misdirect or mystery
00:54:12.315 --> 00:54:16.345
to the movie as to what happened
to Santi, who really did it.
00:54:16.615 --> 00:54:20.718
As it turns out, it's the person
you'd most likely suspect, but they
00:54:20.718 --> 00:54:22.578
do do a good job throwing some mrx.
00:54:22.978 --> 00:54:25.098
Susan: And they've already
showed you at the very beginning.
00:54:25.098 --> 00:54:25.548
Right.
00:54:25.658 --> 00:54:29.858
You know, Jaime with the boy, you know,
on, on the ground, like, and running away.
00:54:29.858 --> 00:54:33.608
So you, you think you've already seen
the scene where he's killed the kid.
00:54:34.008 --> 00:54:34.338
Right.
00:54:34.338 --> 00:54:35.911
And then later we see the, pictures.
00:54:35.911 --> 00:54:38.641
So that just reinforced what we
think we've already been told.
00:54:39.041 --> 00:54:39.401
Jeremy: yeah,
00:54:39.601 --> 00:54:40.436
Susan: we're all scared of him too.
00:54:40.836 --> 00:54:40.956
Jeremy: yeah.
00:54:40.961 --> 00:54:44.823
I think, I think who it is that Jaime
reminds me of is Neville Longbottom.
00:54:44.828 --> 00:54:45.503
He just kind of looks.
00:54:46.218 --> 00:54:46.958
Susan: Oh yeah.
00:54:47.453 --> 00:54:51.803
Jeremy: I mean, even Neville is, you know,
sort of the, the dork of that group who's,
00:54:51.833 --> 00:54:56.786
you know, clumsy and, and bad at magic is
like he's still taller and has the same
00:54:56.786 --> 00:54:58.736
sort of ears that, that this kid does.
00:54:59.156 --> 00:55:04.923
But yeah, I think like that reaction
to Carlos, I, I don't know if it's more
00:55:04.923 --> 00:55:10.136
about masculinity or if it's about class
that Carlos seems to come in thinking
00:55:10.136 --> 00:55:12.976
that he is better than these kids
at the orphanage, or at least that's
00:55:12.976 --> 00:55:17.356
the way they're reading it is, you
know, he's seeing this is a, a visit.
00:55:17.566 --> 00:55:20.786
He is with the, you know,
these guys from the loyalists.
00:55:20.786 --> 00:55:24.776
He's just, he's gonna go back out
of this and see his dad anytime now.
00:55:25.143 --> 00:55:28.203
Um, They're, you know, sort of seeing
that as him looking down on them
00:55:28.868 --> 00:55:30.908
Ben: Yeah, they they give 'em
shit about having a tutor.
00:55:31.308 --> 00:55:31.858
Susan: Oh yeah, that's,
00:55:32.245 --> 00:55:34.758
Jeremy: Yeah, it's the tutor
bit comes back a couple times.
00:55:35.158 --> 00:55:36.238
You tutor teacher that?
00:55:36.718 --> 00:55:40.703
The other section in this that's really
worth talking about is it's not a real
00:55:40.703 --> 00:55:43.193
strong movie on the L G B T front.
00:55:43.313 --> 00:55:47.343
There's not only not any sort of
representation there, Jacinto and some
00:55:47.343 --> 00:55:52.113
of the boys throw around some slurs
in there too, which are not great, but
00:55:52.723 --> 00:55:55.043
probably accurate to, to the characters.
00:55:55.153 --> 00:55:57.720
You know, that they, they
would've thrown that stuff around.
00:55:57.720 --> 00:56:01.180
But yeah, there's, there's no real
representation or anything to discuss
00:56:01.450 --> 00:56:04.670
Susan: No, unless of course we imagine
that Carlos grows up to be a gay writer.
00:56:04.890 --> 00:56:07.100
But you know, that's just me projecting.
00:56:07.710 --> 00:56:10.483
Ben: I head cannon that,
uh, Carlos takes after Dr.
00:56:10.483 --> 00:56:12.643
Casares's example and becomes a doctor.
00:56:12.930 --> 00:56:15.900
Jeremy: Oh, you know, Jaime is an artist,
so he's probably just a little gay.
00:56:15.900 --> 00:56:16.170
Right?
00:56:16.418 --> 00:56:16.868
Susan: Right.
00:56:17.723 --> 00:56:18.773
Jeremy: he's a comic book artist.
00:56:18.853 --> 00:56:19.363
Who knows?
00:56:19.800 --> 00:56:23.526
and apparently he's based on a
lot on the comic book artist that,
00:56:23.693 --> 00:56:25.223
Guillermo Del Toro likes that.
00:56:25.253 --> 00:56:26.993
I, I think we talked
about a little bit before.
00:56:27.029 --> 00:56:28.628
I think IMDB had his name.
00:56:28.628 --> 00:56:29.548
So let me grab that.
00:56:29.770 --> 00:56:33.480
Ben: I did have to laugh at the scene
where Jaime is like, I'll trade you
00:56:33.480 --> 00:56:35.970
your comic for my homemade porn.
00:56:36.150 --> 00:56:38.100
It's super realistic.
00:56:38.220 --> 00:56:42.850
And then I know this is a kid handing
in, a kid drawing, but it reminded me
00:56:42.850 --> 00:56:46.900
of the scene of, it's always sunny in
Philadelphia when Glenn Howerton is
00:56:46.900 --> 00:56:52.750
doing, like the cartoon is like drawing
just a big, you know, big sexy lady with
00:56:52.755 --> 00:56:55.120
his like stick figure cartoon drawing.
00:56:55.520 --> 00:56:59.960
Jeremy: And the, I don't know why it hit
me so funny, but I, I cracked up when
00:56:59.960 --> 00:57:03.800
he's, he's showing this and everybody's
complimenting him how good it is and
00:57:04.150 --> 00:57:05.890
is, I don't know if it's owl or Galvez.
00:57:05.890 --> 00:57:08.890
One of them is like,
yeah, the vagina sideways.
00:57:09.090 --> 00:57:10.540
Like, you got that
00:57:10.765 --> 00:57:14.460
Ben: That was- I mean, it was both
funny but also kind of, and you're
00:57:14.460 --> 00:57:16.110
like, Jaime as this character that.
00:57:16.510 --> 00:57:22.390
Does not know as much as he's pretending
to, but will not and will react with
00:57:22.466 --> 00:57:24.746
bluster and anger when called out on it.
00:57:25.146 --> 00:57:28.921
Jeremy: Yeah, so the, the um, the
cartoonist we were looking for,
00:57:28.921 --> 00:57:30.758
the name of is uh, Carlos Gimenez.
00:57:31.205 --> 00:57:37.156
And he, he wrote a comic which is somewhat
apparently about his him living in a
00:57:37.156 --> 00:57:41.906
Francoist orphanage during the early
fifties um, which I guess was a source for
00:57:41.906 --> 00:57:43.943
some of the some of the ideas for this.
00:57:43.943 --> 00:57:47.183
And then, you know, he was brought on
to storyboard for the film as well.
00:57:48.453 --> 00:57:52.683
is a great way to pay back an artist that
you've been inspired by if you know you're
00:57:52.683 --> 00:57:54.963
a, if you're a guy who's making movies,
00:57:55.363 --> 00:57:58.963
Ivy: Yeah, that's like uh, Mike
Minola Storyboarding blade too.
00:57:59.325 --> 00:57:59.815
Jeremy: Yeah,
00:58:00.210 --> 00:58:01.440
Ivy: Another G D T
00:58:02.130 --> 00:58:04.020
G D T is the only good comics fan.
00:58:04.020 --> 00:58:04.980
That's what I'm learning.
00:58:07.131 --> 00:58:10.641
Ben: well, a, as we say in this
podcast uh, the only superhero
00:58:10.641 --> 00:58:12.711
movie ever made is Venom Two.
00:58:13.901 --> 00:58:18.621
that, that's my personal policy to
avoid the discourse scarier than
00:58:18.621 --> 00:58:21.201
any horror movie we've ever watched.
00:58:21.601 --> 00:58:24.898
Jeremy: On Blade two, you know, we
have to acknowledge Blade because
00:58:24.898 --> 00:58:27.928
we talk about motherfuckers trying
to ice skate a pill so often.
00:58:27.928 --> 00:58:29.951
Ben: Yeah, we're gonna have to
talk about Blade at some point.
00:58:29.951 --> 00:58:34.458
I mean, I will say Blade is
legitimately one of my favorite movies.
00:58:34.885 --> 00:58:37.855
Jeremy: Blade two is especially good
because, you know, Guillermo del Toro.
00:58:38.305 --> 00:58:41.545
At some point we'll have to get around
to talking about his comic book movies.
00:58:41.545 --> 00:58:42.775
Between that and Hellboy,
00:58:43.100 --> 00:58:43.590
Susan: Yeah.
00:58:43.655 --> 00:58:44.255
Jeremy: talk about.
00:58:44.655 --> 00:58:45.285
Ben: Oh God.
00:58:45.285 --> 00:58:46.245
Hellboy.
00:58:46.645 --> 00:58:48.235
Especially Hellboy too.
00:58:48.635 --> 00:58:48.755
Ugh.
00:58:49.155 --> 00:58:54.325
I know it's, but the scene of Abe
and Hellboy drinking in like the
00:58:54.325 --> 00:58:59.048
library thing, talking about romance
and relationships and feelings
00:58:59.188 --> 00:59:01.548
will just always be one of my
favorite movie scenes of all time.
00:59:01.948 --> 00:59:02.068
Jeremy: Yeah.
00:59:02.068 --> 00:59:06.516
This is uh, devil's Backbone is the
only Guillermo Del Toro movie in which
00:59:06.516 --> 00:59:07.956
neither of those gentlemen appear.
00:59:07.956 --> 00:59:12.900
There is uh, no Doug Jones and
no uh, Ron Perlman in this movie.
00:59:12.945 --> 00:59:13.435
Ivy: Wild.
00:59:13.920 --> 00:59:14.130
Jeremy: Yeah.
00:59:14.130 --> 00:59:17.220
One of them is in every other
Guillermo do Toro movie.
00:59:17.620 --> 00:59:17.860
Yeah.
00:59:17.860 --> 00:59:19.060
And somehow it's still good.
00:59:19.060 --> 00:59:19.540
I don't know.
00:59:19.540 --> 00:59:20.530
Those, those guys are great.
00:59:20.981 --> 00:59:24.491
Ivy: Even without Ron Perlman,
a movie can be watchable.
00:59:24.791 --> 00:59:25.301
It turns out.
00:59:26.080 --> 00:59:28.680
Ben: I wouldn't have believed
it, but it turns out to be.
00:59:29.410 --> 00:59:29.680
Susan: Yeah.
00:59:29.830 --> 00:59:30.350
Right.
00:59:31.100 --> 00:59:34.420
Jeremy: just have to wait for the, the
remake in which, you know, we cash Perlman
00:59:34.435 --> 00:59:40.356
as Casares and I guess Doug Jones can
be Carmen, just pair the two of them up.
00:59:40.836 --> 00:59:41.406
It'd be great.
00:59:41.646 --> 00:59:46.516
So, I guess that leads to my question
uh, that we always ask, which is do you
00:59:46.516 --> 00:59:47.746
feel like this movie's worth seeing?
00:59:47.746 --> 00:59:50.356
Would you recommend it to
people listening to the podcast?
00:59:50.756 --> 00:59:51.606
Ben: Absolutely.
00:59:52.006 --> 00:59:52.396
Movies.
00:59:52.401 --> 00:59:53.236
Movies, great.
00:59:53.636 --> 00:59:56.496
Ivy: I feel like we know
my answer is a big yes.
00:59:56.586 --> 00:59:57.576
Two thumbs up.
00:59:58.086 --> 00:59:58.566
10.
00:59:58.566 --> 00:59:59.646
10 outta 10 Ivy.
00:59:59.646 --> 01:00:01.476
Score for Devil's Backbone.
01:00:02.016 --> 01:00:06.586
But don't watch it if you are worried
about seeing violence to kids,
01:00:06.636 --> 01:00:08.426
which is something that we talked.
01:00:09.016 --> 01:00:11.026
Jeremy: Yeah, that's
a, that's a big no-no.
01:00:11.031 --> 01:00:14.381
As I think we've discussed for my
wife, Alicia, is any film in which
01:00:14.381 --> 01:00:18.411
there is inherent threat or violence
to children, it's just not into it.
01:00:18.811 --> 01:00:19.021
Ivy: Yeah.
01:00:19.231 --> 01:00:20.801
Big, big warning for that one.
01:00:21.351 --> 01:00:21.841
Yeah.
01:00:22.241 --> 01:00:23.051
Susan: Yeah, there really is.
01:00:23.051 --> 01:00:26.531
I mean, this was actually my first
time watching it and I thought
01:00:26.531 --> 01:00:28.091
it was pretty freaking amazing.
01:00:28.191 --> 01:00:33.303
And um, yeah, I mean, I have to say that
I think it's I thought it was better
01:00:33.303 --> 01:00:37.563
than Pan Labyrinth, so, and I love
that movie, so I highly recommend it.
01:00:37.833 --> 01:00:40.880
I did think it was, I mean, just
cinematically, it was just a beautiful.
01:00:41.343 --> 01:00:45.933
And as a, we didn't even hardly talk about
Carlos in the coming of age aspects of it.
01:00:45.933 --> 01:00:50.470
And just for that it's, there's a certain
sweetness to it that is pretty amazing.
01:00:50.560 --> 01:00:54.860
And when the boys all leave together,
that, that to me was very redemptive of
01:00:54.920 --> 01:00:58.240
all the violence against all the other
poor dead boys in the, in the yard.
01:00:58.760 --> 01:01:00.860
Ben: it's a very uplifting mo moment.
01:01:00.860 --> 01:01:06.733
Like they've gotten in peace for
Santi, they've, slewn, slown...
01:01:07.116 --> 01:01:09.186
They, they, they killed Jacinto.
01:01:10.096 --> 01:01:13.721
And there's definitely aha moment
in my head going like, uh oh,
01:01:14.151 --> 01:01:15.221
ow will still definitely wooed.
01:01:15.821 --> 01:01:17.321
And this is a two day walk.
01:01:17.321 --> 01:01:20.471
And uhoh like, how is this
gonna turn out for little kids?
01:01:20.891 --> 01:01:24.345
But there's also the part of my brain
definitely going like, shut the fuck up.
01:01:24.615 --> 01:01:26.205
Don't, it's emotionally resonant.
01:01:26.210 --> 01:01:28.185
We're we're feeling emotionally good.
01:01:28.755 --> 01:01:31.785
Turn your fucking logic brain
off and enjoy the ending.
01:01:32.185 --> 01:01:35.235
Jeremy: Yeah, I think it's, it is
interesting in that respect, and I, I
01:01:35.235 --> 01:01:40.988
think it's supposed to be, you know, an
ending that is like, it is hopeful, but
01:01:40.988 --> 01:01:45.081
also there's a good chance that these
kids are ultimately doomed because even
01:01:45.081 --> 01:01:49.175
if they do get across this day and a
half walk to town, they're still in
01:01:49.175 --> 01:01:50.795
the middle of the Spanish Civil War.
01:01:50.891 --> 01:01:53.051
You know, the, the place
where they were safe is gone.
01:01:53.561 --> 01:01:54.061
You know,
01:01:54.306 --> 01:01:56.136
Susan: Even if they survive
the war, they're gonna live
01:01:56.136 --> 01:01:57.096
under Franco for decades.
01:01:57.496 --> 01:02:01.676
Jeremy: Yeah, they are victorious in
this moment, but there's a, there's
01:02:01.676 --> 01:02:05.070
a lot of stuff that's not gonna be
great after this, which I think is
01:02:05.070 --> 01:02:06.720
a very Guillermo del Toro moment.
01:02:06.750 --> 01:02:12.380
There's a, you know, I mean, that
is ma like, that is basically the
01:02:12.380 --> 01:02:15.890
like, climax of, I mean, not to
spoil it, but Pan's Labyrinth is
01:02:15.890 --> 01:02:17.870
like, Hey, this thing is great also.
01:02:17.875 --> 01:02:18.910
It's terrible.
01:02:19.555 --> 01:02:22.895
Um, You have a second of
being hopeful about this.
01:02:23.295 --> 01:02:24.795
well That one we're
talking about next week.
01:02:24.795 --> 01:02:28.938
So that's uh, something to look
forward to having you dream stashed.
01:02:29.252 --> 01:02:32.485
Uh, Ben, do you have anything to recommend
for people uh, coming out of this?
01:02:34.108 --> 01:02:34.978
Ben: I don't know why.
01:02:35.158 --> 01:02:37.378
I just had to think of
something really fast.
01:02:37.378 --> 01:02:40.838
Then Matilda was the first thing
that came to my head, cuz it's also
01:02:40.938 --> 01:02:45.695
kids who deserve nice things and not
enough nice things happen to them.
01:02:46.048 --> 01:02:48.418
and also supernatural
elements are in both.
01:02:48.818 --> 01:02:51.178
So also Danny DeVito.
01:02:51.378 --> 01:02:51.578
Jeremy: Yeah.
01:02:51.578 --> 01:02:52.298
Kids surviving.
01:02:52.303 --> 01:02:55.868
Despite the failure of every person
in system that's supposed to protect
01:02:55.873 --> 01:02:58.268
them, I think uh, resonates here.
01:02:58.583 --> 01:03:00.173
Ivy: Yeah, I think it's pretty apt.
01:03:00.573 --> 01:03:02.286
Ben: Yeah, right.
01:03:02.286 --> 01:03:03.906
Never a bad time to watch Matilda.
01:03:04.041 --> 01:03:04.131
Ivy: Yeah.
01:03:04.521 --> 01:03:04.911
Jeremy: Yeah.
01:03:05.150 --> 01:03:07.705
Uh, Ivy, did you have anything
you wanted to recommend?
01:03:07.878 --> 01:03:13.978
Ivy: I think that a really good like
spiritual pair to this movie is the others
01:03:14.248 --> 01:03:19.270
with Nicole Kidman which is also a very
tragic, kind of captured ghost story.
01:03:19.670 --> 01:03:23.678
If you haven't watched that one, I
think it really explores the trauma of
01:03:23.678 --> 01:03:25.968
ghosts a bit in a different direction.
01:03:25.968 --> 01:03:26.838
It's very interesting.
01:03:27.038 --> 01:03:30.128
With time and distance from it, I think
it's a much better movie than people
01:03:30.133 --> 01:03:31.358
thought it was when it first came out.
01:03:31.698 --> 01:03:34.968
And I know y'all have talked about
this on your show before, but his
01:03:34.968 --> 01:03:38.365
house would be another one that I
would recommend if you liked Devil's
01:03:38.365 --> 01:03:40.225
Backbone, like a hundred percent.
01:03:40.625 --> 01:03:44.465
And then finally I'll recommend
another one of my all time
01:03:44.465 --> 01:03:49.815
favorites, which is the 1963 version
of The Haunting by Robert Wise.
01:03:50.215 --> 01:03:53.155
Which is an adaptation of Shirley
Jackson's Haunting of Hillhouse,
01:03:53.695 --> 01:03:56.885
probably the most accurate adaptation
that's been made which is another
01:03:56.885 --> 01:04:01.205
like very interesting psychological
horror that does a lot with really
01:04:01.210 --> 01:04:04.235
beautiful, weird cinematography.
01:04:04.655 --> 01:04:07.415
Those are, those are the ones I would
say, if you like, devil's Backbone.
01:04:07.815 --> 01:04:12.135
Ben: Great picks and yeah,
we fucking loved his house.
01:04:12.210 --> 01:04:13.620
Ivy: His house was incredible.
01:04:13.710 --> 01:04:16.730
Like, it, it stuck with me for like weeks.
01:04:16.940 --> 01:04:18.500
I was thinking about that movie.
01:04:18.780 --> 01:04:21.990
Ben: I still can't fucking use a fork
without thinking about that movie.
01:04:23.142 --> 01:04:24.092
Susan: Oh, that's frightening.
01:04:24.492 --> 01:04:24.612
Jeremy: Yeah,
01:04:24.807 --> 01:04:25.167
Ben: No,
01:04:25.182 --> 01:04:25.425
Jeremy: a lot.
01:04:25.827 --> 01:04:28.427
Ben: the, the, the fork
is not part of the horror.
01:04:28.497 --> 01:04:29.267
More just.
01:04:29.667 --> 01:04:30.977
Very interesting.
01:04:30.982 --> 01:04:38.337
They just very interesting themes
of assimilation, but no, no no fork
01:04:38.337 --> 01:04:43.597
related horror, only fork related
cultural practices that make you
01:04:43.597 --> 01:04:45.157
think once made aware of them.
01:04:45.557 --> 01:04:46.367
Ivy: That movie's so good.
01:04:46.493 --> 01:04:47.093
Maybe it's time for a
01:04:47.323 --> 01:04:47.683
rewatch.
01:04:47.817 --> 01:04:49.227
Susan: I'm putting that on my list now.
01:04:49.627 --> 01:04:52.438
Jeremy: Yeah, we just talked
about that in uh, February.
01:04:52.438 --> 01:04:56.832
So anybody who is is interested in that
one, checks it out, can uh, go back
01:04:56.837 --> 01:04:58.182
and listen to that episode as well.
01:04:58.212 --> 01:05:01.282
Cuz that was, that was another
one of those that like, again, we
01:05:01.282 --> 01:05:03.442
liked so much that we were just
not even sure what to say about
01:05:04.537 --> 01:05:04.747
Ben: there.
01:05:04.752 --> 01:05:06.667
There wasn't a lot of
silliness in that one.
01:05:06.667 --> 01:05:08.947
There was a lot of like,
yep, that was good.
01:05:09.307 --> 01:05:13.207
Let's talk about how thematic and
interesting and complex that was.
01:05:13.607 --> 01:05:14.643
Jeremy: Yeah, absolutely.
01:05:14.963 --> 01:05:18.108
Ben: we, to be fair, we did
get a lot of mileage out.
01:05:18.508 --> 01:05:21.958
Matt Smith's, Rosen, creats
and Gilstone are dead movie
01:05:22.258 --> 01:05:26.068
Ivy: I was gonna say, you've gotta
have some Matt Smith, some Matt
01:05:26.073 --> 01:05:27.568
Smith bits had to present themselves.
01:05:28.108 --> 01:05:28.498
Ben: Oh Yeah.
01:05:28.498 --> 01:05:32.038
we, we, talked a lot about how this is
a very different movie when presented
01:05:32.038 --> 01:05:34.198
entirely from Matt Smith's perspective.
01:05:34.408 --> 01:05:37.738
Jeremy: the civil servant who just feels
like his life is falling apart while this,
01:05:37.738 --> 01:05:41.248
you know, these, these immigrants keep
showing up, telling him about this ghost
01:05:41.248 --> 01:05:42.598
that's in the house that he got for them.
01:05:42.598 --> 01:05:45.678
Like the scene where he is, the
guy is telling him this stuff about
01:05:45.678 --> 01:05:47.118
there being a witch in their house.
01:05:47.118 --> 01:05:50.508
And Mad Smith is clearly like,
oh, you can't see this in front
01:05:50.508 --> 01:05:52.098
of the other guys I work with.
01:05:52.098 --> 01:05:53.748
This is definitely not gonna be good.
01:05:54.288 --> 01:05:57.058
Is, it's, it's tough.
01:05:57.268 --> 01:06:02.188
Ben: Like my favorite moment in the
whole film is when Matt Smith shows
01:06:02.188 --> 01:06:05.348
up at the house at the end, and
then just like, oh no, it's fine.
01:06:05.408 --> 01:06:06.638
She killed the ghost.
01:06:07.058 --> 01:06:09.888
And Matt just has this
like, like, okay, then.
01:06:10.083 --> 01:06:10.533
Ivy: Yeah.
01:06:11.373 --> 01:06:11.883
Cool.
01:06:12.790 --> 01:06:15.710
Ben: this problem fixed itself, I guess.
01:06:16.110 --> 01:06:17.400
Oh, good movie,
01:06:17.800 --> 01:06:18.190
Jeremy: Yeah.
01:06:18.220 --> 01:06:21.760
Susan: So I think my recommendation,
if we're talking about coming
01:06:21.760 --> 01:06:26.770
of age in the middle of the war,
anti-fascist films would be Jojo Rabbit.
01:06:27.170 --> 01:06:27.560
Loved that.
01:06:27.980 --> 01:06:28.330
Um,
01:06:28.500 --> 01:06:29.400
Jeremy: seen Jojo Rabbit.
01:06:30.060 --> 01:06:35.620
Susan: very different tone and tenor,
but very much I think the same themes.
01:06:35.650 --> 01:06:37.023
Um, Love that one.
01:06:37.353 --> 01:06:41.402
Not in the horror vein, but um, we
talked about it a little bit earlier.
01:06:41.652 --> 01:06:43.152
Just started watching poker face.
01:06:43.157 --> 01:06:44.262
Am loving that.
01:06:44.412 --> 01:06:44.982
And I think it's
01:06:45.012 --> 01:06:45.732
Ben: it's so good.
01:06:46.362 --> 01:06:46.812
so
01:06:46.812 --> 01:06:47.412
fucking good.
01:06:47.812 --> 01:06:48.142
Oh yeah.
01:06:48.172 --> 01:06:50.202
Oh, we got fucking Ron Perlman!
01:06:50.632 --> 01:06:51.262
Ivy: There you go.
01:06:51.262 --> 01:06:51.842
There's your Ron Perlman.
01:06:51.862 --> 01:06:52.132
Ben: Oh.
01:06:53.782 --> 01:06:54.112
Susan: Yep.
01:06:54.807 --> 01:06:59.482
Ben: has at the least one guest star
that makes me go, oh, holy shit.
01:06:59.482 --> 01:07:00.682
They're in this episode.
01:07:01.423 --> 01:07:05.453
Jeremy: Yeah, the, I think to date my
favorite episode is the time of the
01:07:05.453 --> 01:07:12.432
monkey because Judith Light and S
Epatha Merkerson are like so good as the,
01:07:12.432 --> 01:07:17.075
like, bonded at the hip, ex hippie, you
know, quasi terrorists, like, they're
01:07:17.075 --> 01:07:17.645
so,
01:07:18.008 --> 01:07:18.368
so,
01:07:18.878 --> 01:07:20.198
Ben: that's my favorite one too.
01:07:20.248 --> 01:07:20.768
Susan: Brilliant.
01:07:21.168 --> 01:07:25.278
Jeremy: I, you know, I, I love the way
it uses the guest stars in that show in
01:07:25.278 --> 01:07:28.278
particular, that, you know, everybody
gets to play a part that you don't
01:07:28.278 --> 01:07:32.878
necessarily see them being you get to
see a very quiet, reserved Louise Guzman,
01:07:33.075 --> 01:07:33.565
Susan: Yeah.
01:07:33.615 --> 01:07:37.498
Ben: gotta say, being given a
whole episode of Tim Meadows
01:07:38.348 --> 01:07:38.838
Ivy: Yeah,
01:07:39.058 --> 01:07:40.318
Ben: gift to me personally.
01:07:41.378 --> 01:07:42.178
Ivy: absolute gift.
01:07:42.628 --> 01:07:43.648
What a treasure.
01:07:43.932 --> 01:07:48.102
Or a whole episode where you get John
Darnell from the mountain goats targeting
01:07:48.162 --> 01:07:50.502
like exactly the me demographic.
01:07:50.617 --> 01:07:51.037
Ben: Yes.
01:07:51.507 --> 01:07:54.777
Jeremy: I, I, I cheered when
John Dar showed up on screen.
01:07:54.957 --> 01:07:56.713
I was like, yes, he's here.
01:07:57.015 --> 01:07:59.915
I, I have a hard time recommending
something to go with this movie that we're
01:07:59.915 --> 01:08:03.095
not already talking about for all the,
like Guillermo do Toro stuff that we're
01:08:03.095 --> 01:08:05.225
talking about and or have talked about.
01:08:05.685 --> 01:08:12.132
But I did mention uh, that our, you know,
lead actress in this are Carmen is also a
01:08:12.132 --> 01:08:15.592
regular in several Pedro Almodovar films.
01:08:15.872 --> 01:08:19.382
It is worth noting as well that Pedro
Almodovar is an executive producer
01:08:19.382 --> 01:08:23.942
on this movie that Guillermo was
working on this movie for years.
01:08:24.332 --> 01:08:28.182
And it wasn't happening until Pedro
Almodovar watched Cronos and then
01:08:28.182 --> 01:08:30.072
asked him to produce his next film.
01:08:30.582 --> 01:08:36.612
So I think it's worth tying this
recommendation to all about my mother
01:08:36.772 --> 01:08:38.892
Pedro Almodovar's movie, which stars.
01:08:39.562 --> 01:08:44.847
Marisa Paredes in, you know, one of the
main roles and is just a fantastic movie.
01:08:44.847 --> 01:08:48.224
I, there aren't many Pedro
Almodovar movies that I don't like.
01:08:48.287 --> 01:08:52.487
But this one in particular is, is
really fantastic and has sort of that
01:08:52.614 --> 01:08:56.334
exploring the interiority of older
women, which, you know, this, this
01:08:56.334 --> 01:08:58.844
movie does, which is I think rare.
01:08:58.867 --> 01:09:02.290
And as, people go that do it, Pedro
Almodovar is really good at it.
01:09:02.680 --> 01:09:04.480
It's a hard movie to explain.
01:09:04.485 --> 01:09:08.240
So I'm just gonna read the little I
M D B caption here, which is Pedro
01:09:08.240 --> 01:09:13.700
Almodovar's Oscar-winning comedy about a
bereaved mother, an overwrought actress,
01:09:13.790 --> 01:09:15.920
her jealous lover, and a pregnant nun.
01:09:16.340 --> 01:09:18.480
Which I think gives you a feeling for the
01:09:18.680 --> 01:09:19.200
Ben: they all
01:09:19.200 --> 01:09:19.500
Jeremy: that this
01:09:19.520 --> 01:09:20.360
Ben: into a bar.
01:09:20.760 --> 01:09:21.520
Jeremy: Yeah, yeah.
01:09:21.520 --> 01:09:25.225
So if, if you haven't seen that movie,
I mean, I honestly recommend most
01:09:25.225 --> 01:09:28.435
Pedro Almodovar stuff, but all about
my mother in particular is, is really
01:09:28.435 --> 01:09:31.465
good and maybe a little less traumatic
than the other one, which she plays
01:09:31.465 --> 01:09:37.390
a major part in, which is uh, the
the skin I live in, which is a very
01:09:37.790 --> 01:09:41.270
difficult movie to recommend because
it's a very difficult movie to watch.
01:09:41.670 --> 01:09:43.680
We're gonna have to talk about
it here at some point because
01:09:43.824 --> 01:09:45.114
it's sort of a horror movie.
01:09:45.594 --> 01:09:48.324
I'm not sure if you could
even say that for sure.
01:09:48.714 --> 01:09:49.524
That movie's a lot.
01:09:50.024 --> 01:09:53.070
Alright, that said that
uh, wraps it up for us.
01:09:53.070 --> 01:09:57.490
I do want to uh, make sure you guys
can let people know where they can find
01:09:57.490 --> 01:09:59.950
more about you and your work online.
01:09:59.980 --> 01:10:02.470
Ivy, can you let people know
where they can find out what
01:10:02.470 --> 01:10:03.790
you're up to and, and hit you up?
01:10:04.424 --> 01:10:07.904
Ivy: Yeah, so I'm at
IvyNoelleWeir.com and I'm.
01:10:08.609 --> 01:10:12.009
Basically every social media
platform at @IvyNoelle.
01:10:12.539 --> 01:10:16.439
I feel like I'm pivoting more to Instagram
these days cuz I know how to use it and
01:10:16.444 --> 01:10:21.427
Twitter is dying, but I'm on Twitter
still until the ship goes down, I guess.
01:10:21.624 --> 01:10:22.884
Jeremy: it's relatable.
01:10:23.110 --> 01:10:24.180
uh, Susan, what about you?
01:10:24.180 --> 01:10:26.670
Where can people find out more about
you and what you're working on?
01:10:27.070 --> 01:10:28.710
Susan: SusanBeneville.com.
01:10:28.910 --> 01:10:31.220
I attempt to Twitter every now and then.
01:10:31.260 --> 01:10:34.710
But social media wise, I'm
mostly on Substack these days.
01:10:34.820 --> 01:10:37.400
Um, my substack is called swirling words.
01:10:37.970 --> 01:10:41.160
That's where I'm putting up some
of my web comics personal essays
01:10:41.165 --> 01:10:44.770
around being a writer um, and
kind of work in progress stuff.
01:10:45.170 --> 01:10:45.660
Jeremy: Nice.
01:10:46.060 --> 01:10:49.090
And as always, even though she's
not here, you can find Emily
01:10:49.220 --> 01:10:53.220
@MegaMoth on Twitter and @mega_moth
on Instagram and mega moth.net.
01:10:53.800 --> 01:10:57.210
Ben is @BentheKahn on their
website in BenKahnComics.com
01:10:57.560 --> 01:11:00.650
where you can pick up all of their
books, including pre-ordering.
01:11:00.650 --> 01:11:03.980
Elle Campbell wins their weekend,
their debut biographic novel from
01:11:03.980 --> 01:11:05.690
Scholastic coming out later this year.
01:11:06.090 --> 01:11:10.640
And as for me, you can find me on Twitter
and Instagram @Jrome58 and on my website
01:11:10.640 --> 01:11:14.050
at jeremywhitley.com where you can find
everything I write, including pre-ordering
01:11:14.070 --> 01:11:17.700
the Dog Knight which is coming out
this May from me and Bree Indigo.
01:11:17.700 --> 01:11:21.030
And I'm super excited about it and
super excited about you guys finally
01:11:21.030 --> 01:11:23.820
reading it because we've been working
on it since before the pandemic started.
01:11:25.267 --> 01:11:28.987
and of course, the podcast is on
Patreon, at Progressively Horrified our
01:11:28.987 --> 01:11:33.937
website at progressively horrified dot
transistor fm on Twitter prog horror pod,
01:11:33.937 --> 01:11:35.257
where we would love to hear from you.
01:11:35.317 --> 01:11:37.597
And speaking of loving to hear
from you, we would love if you'd
01:11:37.597 --> 01:11:39.907
rate and review this podcast
wherever you're listening to it.
01:11:40.147 --> 01:11:43.567
Giving us five stars helps other
people find the podcast, helps
01:11:43.567 --> 01:11:45.217
us get recommended to more folks.
01:11:45.637 --> 01:11:48.607
Thanks again to Ivy and
Susan for joining us.
01:11:48.607 --> 01:11:49.627
Guys, this was so much fun.
01:11:49.627 --> 01:11:50.557
This is such a great movie.
01:11:50.557 --> 01:11:51.697
It was great to talk to you about it.
01:11:52.097 --> 01:11:52.277
Susan: Thank.
01:11:52.694 --> 01:11:55.994
Ivy: Yeah, thank you for giving me
the chance to talk about it cuz I
01:11:55.999 --> 01:11:59.244
was recommended to come on here by
my best friend Steenz who I think's
01:11:59.249 --> 01:12:00.794
tired of hearing me talk about it.
01:12:01.602 --> 01:12:04.692
Jeremy: Yeah, I, I hit up Steenz
and Steenz was like, you need to
01:12:04.692 --> 01:12:06.162
email Ivy about this right now.
01:12:07.812 --> 01:12:11.022
Ben: we, we are most thrilled to
have you on and telling us about it.
01:12:11.682 --> 01:12:15.862
This was a delightful movie to get to
discuss and I'd never seen it before.
01:12:15.862 --> 01:12:20.032
So I, I am, my life is now richer
for having seen Devil's Backbone.
01:12:20.073 --> 01:12:21.759
Jeremy: Have you seen Pan's Labyrinth yet?
01:12:21.939 --> 01:12:22.869
Ben: I haven't.
01:12:23.139 --> 01:12:25.449
Jeremy: You're gonna understand
so much more references after
01:12:25.689 --> 01:12:26.289
Ben: Right.
01:12:26.289 --> 01:12:28.349
My, my partner is very excited.
01:12:28.479 --> 01:12:33.469
Uh, She almost never watches any of these
horror movies, but she very much wants
01:12:33.529 --> 01:12:35.059
to watch Pan's Labyrinth with me this.
01:12:35.804 --> 01:12:39.464
Jeremy: Yeah, I, I haven't watched it
since like the first two times I saw
01:12:39.464 --> 01:12:41.354
it, like when it came out in theaters.
01:12:41.354 --> 01:12:45.664
So I'm excited about sitting down
with that one and hopefully living
01:12:45.664 --> 01:12:49.894
up to the, the deep and abiding
love I've had for it since then.
01:12:50.224 --> 01:12:51.274
But you know, who knows?
01:12:51.274 --> 01:12:53.584
Maybe my soul will be crushed
next week when you hear from me.
01:12:54.094 --> 01:12:54.694
But I doubt it.
01:12:55.034 --> 01:12:56.324
Guillermo hasn't let me down yet.
01:12:56.804 --> 01:12:57.284
Alright.
01:12:57.674 --> 01:12:59.894
Thanks again to uh, all
of you for listening.
01:12:59.894 --> 01:13:02.894
Thanks to Ben for being here,
and we will talk to you next
01:13:02.894 --> 01:13:05.024
week about Pans Labyrinth.
01:13:05.294 --> 01:13:07.244
Until next time, stay horrified.
