Preparing the Child for the Road: Inside The Anxiety Project with Michael Hawton

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Okay, welcome back to Professional Learnings, the New South Wales PPA Educational Leadership Podcast.
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I'm your host, Drew Janetsky, and today we're continuing with leading our data series of the Anxiety Project.
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And we're revisiting that important project, as I said, the Anxiety Project.
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Joining me once again is psychologist and author Michael Horton, Director of Parent Shop.
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Michael, it's great to have you back.
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It's great to be back, Drew.
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Yeah, feels like it's been full circle, and I'm really intrigued to see the evolution of the anxiety project and where to next in our conversation today.
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Yeah, it certainly has evolved a lot over the last three, four years.
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Absolutely.
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And that's credit to yourself, the team, and also the work that is coming through, and and we'll unpack that today in terms of the real impact that the anxiety project has had and the success stories and real data stories, Michael, that show the impact, show the I guess the hypotheses, hypotheses to where it is now, from where where that all that planning is to 2025.
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Michael, before we get into today's conversations, let's have a listen to an extract from the recent Student Well-being forum where you explain the cycle of accommodation.
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Accommodations are something that I feel is becoming a big deal in our society.
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Sometimes they can hinder a lot more than they help.
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Tom has a bad day at school.
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Next day, Tom doesn't want to go to school.
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Jane says, You've got to go.
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Tom catastrophizes, creates a scene.
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Jane says, okay, you can stay home.
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Tom stays at home, and Tom plays on his device all day.
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Is this happening in a school near you?
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Just asking.
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No, it's not just parents.
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It's also professionals like myself, sometimes giving you an excuse letter for why Lucy can't go on camp tomorrow.
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Or an OT who might be jumping in and saying, Oh, you don't want to stress them out too much.
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Kids need experience of facing normal life challenges.
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Normal life challenges are going to school, going to camp.
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Most parents know, you know what, it's probably better that he goes to school.
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But they're letting it, they're getting tripped up by their child's anxiousness.
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And this is called accommodation.
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So, Michael, for those listening who are new to the Anxiety Project, can you remind us of how it began and what it is all about?
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Well, um, back in 2019, Drew, the Australian Primary Principles Association put out a survey back then trying to understand the level of mental health problems they could see in kids in primary school.
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And um what they came up with were some kind of startling results with about 700, or then close to close enough to 700 of the 7,000 respondents in in the survey, were so that's a pretty good sample, 10%.
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Um, were saying that we've got kids, children who are anxious, they're more anxious than a generation ago.
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And then the upshot of that was about 90% of the school leaders, many of whom had decades of experience, were saying that they actually didn't have the resources to to do much about it, or they were poor on resources to be able to address um those anxiety problems.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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So a big why behind that.
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And obviously, then there's the connection to the New South Wales Primary Principles Association, which saw there was this huge problem.
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Came to you, came to your organization.
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Tell us about the working through of that to become now the anxiety project.
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Well, I mean, my background, I work in community health uh as a psychologist, uh, but also I've written a couple of books.
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My read most recent book's called The Anxiety Coach.
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And it's helping uh parents, if you like, how to deal with the anxiety they might be seeing in their child.
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Now, in schools, what schools tend to see is children who are reluctant or avoidant.
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Uh, where something looks challenging for a child, often, even if it's an ambiguous situation, they'll tend to be reluctant or back off.
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Um, and so a lot, a large part of this project has really been about how do we help, how do we equip children in those kind of micro moments where they might be avoiding or they might be catastrophizing.
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How do we help them to engage with challenges?
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Because that's the most obvious way that you'll see anxiousness in children, young people, is that they won't um engage as much in the challenge.
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And so part of the part of the issue is about what the adults around the child can do to facilitate and guide and scaffold the child to get better at meeting those challenges.
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And so unpacking that further as part of the project, teaching the adults, so to speak, of how to deal with with children's discomfort.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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But if you think about it, the the the uh cognitive behavioral therapy has come a long way in the last 30 years, for example.
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Certainly when I was at university back in the 80s, there was a lot of work being done about how do you transpose those kind of strategies into kind of an early intervention um uh emphasis.
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And so it's come a long way now.
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So you get books like coming out like Parent Led CBT, is one of the books that I refer to quite a lot.
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Because the inference there is that if you train up lay people to do some of the skills, and and we're not training them up to be psychologists, so so let me be clear there.
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But what we are doing is we're saying we if we use some of the skills that psychologists use when they're helping kids with their anxiousness, then that will help the teachers, one, feel more confident in their ability to manage uh a kind of a mini crisis moment where the child is avoiding or the child isn't participating as much as you would like them to.
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I think that that what's happened in more recent times is that we've been reluctant to make those challenges, if you like, because we don't want to make their anxiety worse.
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And, you know, we don't want to be accused of you know, in any way upsetting the child, but there's some real goal to be had in helping kids to get better at meeting challenges.
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And ironically, if they went to see the psychologist, um, that's exactly what he or she would do.
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They would challenge the young person, challenge the child to meet challenges where they might be avoiding or where they might be catastrophizing or letting their fear overcome them.
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So yeah, there's there's some terrific things that I call it a lay-led, a broad-based lay-led model, where if you train up the the teachers, for example, to get better at having those um incidental moments, they're already having these conversations, as you know.
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But the question is, how can we help them get better in those kind of micro moments to facilitate and guide the child um to meet those challenges?
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And then the more experiences they have like that, the more it is that they'll get confidence in meeting challenges over time.
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Yeah, that's it's just wondering how we got to that point in in society where we're trying to be supportive and encouraging to s to young people and obviously try to support them understanding anxiety is an issue, but in terms of how to how to tackle that, whether that's the right word, or how to overcome that, is it's a real challenge for educators, for leaders of schools, for society, for for adults, and obviously parents as well, who who want the best for their kids yet are navigating through the maze.
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What what's your advice there, Michael?
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Do you think we've as society to I heard to just sit with discomfort?
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Well, I think that's true that that parents uh in particular, but also teachers, get tripped up by the child's distress.
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Um, but we want to help them get better at uh managing their distress because it's in the struggle, if you like, where they're going to get stronger psychologically, guess to get stronger.
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I mean, there's an old saying in this area: prepare the child for the road, not the road for the child.
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And ultimately, what that means is that if we're going to help them to get stronger, better, more able to deal with life's vicissitudes and challenges, then we need to give them practice along the way.
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And that will require any of us adults to not always jump in and solve the problem for them, but rather to guide them to scaffold their ability to provide them with opportunities where they can kind of come good.
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And it's in those experiences, in those interactions, that children are going to get better, you see.
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Because it's kind of like there's an, you know, if you look at this, it some people think anxiety is kind of like a sore tooth.
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It's kind of like there's something wrong with their mind.
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If you just fix their mind somehow, but often more more often than not, it's it's actually there's nothing wrong with their mind, but it's the nature of the interactions that the child has with his or her environment that will see the anxiety either get worse or uh get better.
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And so if we change the interactions between the adults and the child, that's a good uh basis to think, okay, how can we make a difference here?
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And I I think, Drew, like we've talked about this before, but I think what we're seeing in teachers is that once they the penny drops and they go, Hey, you know what?
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I can I can manage a bit of the child's discomfort because I've got a longer game here.
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The longer game I'm I'm kind of playing is how do I help this child, what's in his or her best interest in this moment, even if it's a bit uncomfortable for them.
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And I think once teachers know that by guiding them, scaffolding their thinking and helping them to use skills that they would teach, they would be taught if they went to see the psychologist, for example, how to problem solve, how to reframe, how to calm their bodies down, all of those kinds of things.
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It's been a very interesting ride for teachers, I think, because I think what we've seen is a growth in confidence in teachers who are themselves thinking, actually, I can use some of these skills from my own children.
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You know, like I've heard teachers say to me, you know what, I've read your book and I've also um set seen what we've done at school, and I'm using some of this for my own kids.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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And we've seen that results.
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And let's go to that now, Michael.
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We've it's now in its fourth year intake.
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What have what have we learned so far from the anxiety project?
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What what's some of the key key moments that have curiosity have surprised you, but also reaffirmed the mission of the anxiety project?
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Well, I think the couple of things that have surprised us as the steering committee have been kind of iterating it and making it better and better each year.
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But I think the thing that struck us is the language changes around the school.
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So once kids learn how to calm their bodies down, they learn that their amygdala can throw hand grenades, for example, and and they're better able to kind of have a sense of I can be the boss of my anxiousness, then the language changes, the culture changes around the school.
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And that's a terrific thing to see.
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And I think the other thing that struck us is the level of enthusiasm in in uh teachers uh for the project, but also their sense of um satisfaction with their work rises.
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I think that's a fair thing to say.
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I think what we're seeing is teachers who are saying, you know what, I can make a reasonably big difference here to the mental health of my of the young people in my care.
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And um, I'm seeing that play out before me every day with kids.
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And this comes back in the qualitative research that's being done as well.
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Teachers saying to the researchers, for example, I feel like I've got something to go with here that's making a very big difference in my classroom.
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I've got kids who are more engaged, kids who are more willing to have a go.
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And that's one of the themes of of the anxiety project is how do we help kids to have a go, to meet challenges, to not tap out straight away, that kind of thing.
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So if you think to yourself, well, what are the manifestations of this in the in the school?
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It's definitely a change of language.
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It's definitely you've got teachers who feel more confident to be able to have those scaffolding, guiding kind of conversations with kids.
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And I think look, we're just doing the research on this now, but anecdotally, we know that teachers' levels of anxiousness is also decreasing.
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That's got to be good news for the profession.
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So Well, that's a good news story.
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And and if I segue into more good news stories, you recently had the well-being seminar in Sydney.
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Can you tell us a little bit about that?
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Or let's listen to an extract of that from that series now.
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Professor Patrick Magory.
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This is a youth mental health crisis that we're dealing with.
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Its roots are in childhood, but the kind of headwinds and and the and the and the mega trends that are making it worse are operating in this very vulnerable period between puberty and the mid-20s.
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The Surgeon General in the US, very serious dude.
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He said the challenges today's generation of young people face are unprecedented and uniquely hard to navigate, and the effect these challenges have had on their mental health is devastating.
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The Australian data is really clear, and that showed a jump from 26% in the 16 to 24 age group to 39% over a 15-year period, which is huge.
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The jump is much higher in young women than in young men, and that's a nasty combination of anxiety, depression, self-harm, and even eating disorders.
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The health system's designed for the over 50s and also little kids.
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We've got to look after the young people in the meantime.
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That's where our focus has been.
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So and they need different systems of care from what traditional health care, mental health care has provided.
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What do you what what was your take from that piece from Professor Patrick McGorrie?
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Look, Patrick has uh only just released a fairly large and significant piece of work in The Lancet, which is the British Medical Journal, about young people in Australia.
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And um he said a few things on the day that are really worth uh identifying.
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Uh he said anxiety unattended to will tend to get worse over time.
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Meaning, if you don't attend to it when they're in primary school, by the time they're in early high school, it'll get worse.
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And if by the time they're in middle adolescents and late adolescents, it will tend to get worse.
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So that's one thing that's really worth remembering.
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The other thing he said on the day was that anxious behavior in children is often a gateway to later, more difficult psychological um illness.
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Uh and what he means by a gateway, of course, is that kids who are psychologically unable to manage the stress that comes in at them are going to be in a more tricky situation than ones who have learnt how to deal with the stress that comes in at them, so to speak.
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Um but he is also saying that those later, more serious ailments like psychosis and suicidality and depression, that anxiety sits behind that.
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So, what I think is wonderful about what the New South Wales Primary Principles Association has done has worked been to work with us to be able to say, okay, we can make a difference at an early intervention level.
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And it's important because the psychiatric illnesses that come later on usually are fed by early onset anxious behaviour.
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Now, some of the anxiety is normal and and just is part of some kids' temperament and their genes.
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But we know that a fair bit of that is learn in the interactions that the child has with his or her environment.
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And so if we change those interactions, the simple hypothesis is that if we change the interactions, we can address the anxiety over time.
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Yeah, yeah, very powerful indeed.
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And it shows independently what I've heard is obviously it's arm's length of research, but you've got Professor Patrick McGrawy now looking at the work, and he's really analyzed the work and can see the value of the anxiety project.
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Well, I think so.
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I mean, we've we've approached Origin to do some of the um later research just recently.
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And so I think I'm hoping that they'll pick it up on the back of what Hilton Educational Research has already done.
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But clearly what we need is to change the model, Drew, because we've got, at the moment, we've got such a a big problem with uh anxiety in young people, as I said, on that trajectory.
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We've now got 32%.
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Nearly one in three are young people who've got an anxiety disorder.
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So it's not normal anxiousness.
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We're talking about uh social phobia, generalized anxiety disorder, about one in three in that 16 to 24-year-old age group.
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And that's what Patrick's research picked up.
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So we've got a large problem, which there's no getting around it.
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I mean I'm I'm usually one for accuracy.
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Uh, and and what I would say to you is that even being accurate at 32%, this is Magorrie's work, uh, that's a fit that's a lot of teenagers who are anxious, but it starts back here, you see.
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And if if only we can uh get um uh intervene at that early level, we'll make a huge difference.
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And that's what the high schools are telling me as well.
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We have another project we run in high schools, but they're saying that a lot of the anxiousness is coming into high schools, and they're not blaming primary schools, but they're just saying it's coming from the primary school from the middle childhood um place where over time the anxiety tends to get worse over time.
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And I know you follow, and I as I I do as well, the work of Jonathan Hayes and and on screen, these things.
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The mobile phone seems to be uh what's your comments on the mobile phone and and hate's work on the contributing factor to anxiety?
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Because those stats that you've just shared, they're pretty frightening.
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Well, they're not good.
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We need a different model for dealing with it.
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And and I I uh you know, when I talk about broad-based lay-led, I'm I'm saying that all the adults in the community should be able to do some things or some things to uh to decrease the levels of anxiousness.
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And I think that's the beauty of the anxiety project.
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We're talking about a cultural change.
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A bit of my background, I used to work for for UNICEF uh in Vietnam.
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And I've anyway, the the upshot of that is that population change projects rely on the key stakeholders, and the key stakeholders in this case are the significant adults.
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So, how can we quick we can how can we make that happen?
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Just circling back to uh the phone issue though.
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I d I don't think it's phones by themselves.
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I think even before the advent of phones, child mental health was problematic back in the 2008, 9, 10s, and um I think so.
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What we've seen over time is uh reductions in child mental health.
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I'm sure that it's amplified it for sure.
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Phones have amplified the problem.
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And I'm and and I guess the question, as everybody's asking now, is should we be allowing children, particularly under 13, to have a phone and be exposed to pretty much adult material in terms of the social interactions and the levels of um uh antagonism and if you like, um outrage sometimes that you see on social media.
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I think kids can't shield themselves because they haven't got there yet the developmental ego strength and they haven't got the wherewithal to push it away, so to speak, if they don't like it.
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So I think there are problems with that for sure.
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I I think that's it, we've got a bigger issue at hand.
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If we have such large numbers that are developing anxiety disorders over time, we need to think outside the square.
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And what I mean by that is that we need to say, okay, look, there's not enough professionals to go around.
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They clearly are not.
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Um, and and so we're not gonna reinvent those professionals overnight, if you like.
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So we've got to find a way to help children um in those kind of adult to child conversations, which is where they're gonna happen.
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Teaching them, uh it, I mean, some of the people in this area are like the same Omar, he talks about striking while the iron's hot and striking while the iron's cold.
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Now, striking while the iron's hot, what he means is that we can help kids in the interactions at the moment they're avoiding or at the moment they're catastrophizing.
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So, teachers in the training we do for the anxiety project, we show teachers how to respond using a bit of a script.
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Say this first, do this second, say this third, you know, that kind of thing.
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So that works.
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Um, the other thing is strike them while the iron is cold.
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And what that means is you can teach kids about their brain and their mind offline.
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And once they learn the language, like even the word amygdala is probably the hardest word that we've even teach.
00:22:20.880 --> 00:22:26.480
Once kids learn about their amygdala, they get to talk to their amygdala and say, calm down.
00:22:26.480 --> 00:22:28.400
It's okay, I'll be fine, you know?
00:22:28.400 --> 00:22:37.119
And they learn that idea that I can actually be the boss of my amygdala, I can be the boss of my fear, I can be the boss of my anxiety.
00:22:37.119 --> 00:22:46.880
And being able to cross that Rubicon, so to speak, in them that they have some char they can take charge of some of their anxiousness and they can self-regulate.
00:22:46.880 --> 00:22:53.839
Now, this ability to self-regulate, as you know, is developmentally uh something that kids get better at uh uh over time.
00:22:53.839 --> 00:23:01.920
But we can guide them uh and facilitate that ability, that self-regulatory ability over a period of time.
00:23:01.920 --> 00:23:06.559
And as a result of that, we'll have less anxious kids over time.
00:23:07.359 --> 00:23:08.640
Yeah, terrific.
00:23:08.640 --> 00:23:23.200
And I love that optimism and also the fact we're educating kids and students and the whole population about how the brain actually works and how, as you said, to control the enigmala.
00:23:23.200 --> 00:23:30.960
I almost got it right there, Michael, the enigmula and how that works and how we can control that as such.
00:23:30.960 --> 00:23:46.480
We are the boss of our own brain, we are the boss of how we can respond to this, but I can't think of another time when we've been explicitly shown this in a primary school, high school setting.
00:23:53.279 --> 00:24:03.920
Well, I I think it's because we haven't had very good models for using cognitive behavioral therapy as an early intervention uh set of tools.
00:24:03.920 --> 00:24:15.519
Um up to only at the least last 10 years or so, I'd say it's only been since that you've got books like this coming out, which is you know, parent-led CBT for child anxiety.
00:24:15.519 --> 00:24:22.880
It's only recently that these kinds of ideas kind of hit the the airwaves.
00:24:22.880 --> 00:24:35.680
And I think we've got bet we've got better over time in knowing that we can teach kids what the psychologist would teach them if they went to see him or her uh in a therapy session in the context of their school days.
00:24:35.680 --> 00:24:47.279
And I think that's why I think there's teachers who are like what's really struck us, Drew, is the number, the level of teachers who are quite enthusiastic about what they're doing.
00:24:47.279 --> 00:24:50.480
Because I I g I think it gives them a real sense of motivation.
00:24:50.480 --> 00:24:53.680
You know, it's not like they weren't having these conversations before.
00:24:53.680 --> 00:24:55.039
They absolutely were.
00:24:55.039 --> 00:25:06.720
But what we've I think what the Anxiety Project has done is kind of filled up their kid bag with ideas about how to hold conversations so that kids don't tap out immediately.
00:25:06.720 --> 00:25:14.000
Because I think it's becoming more obvious to me, particularly in the high school work that we do, that you've got kids who are tapping out.
00:25:14.000 --> 00:25:20.000
They're leaving class, for example, or they're not going to school, or they're they're not joining in.
00:25:20.000 --> 00:25:36.880
And I think what we're seeing at a kind of vastly at a kind of population level is lots of kids who are not sure how to m manage the struggle within themselves to stay in, to not tap out, to have a go, all of all of those things.
00:25:37.359 --> 00:25:46.400
And we heard at the well-being, going back to the well-being seminar this year, what were the stand there were some real standout schools that we saw.
00:25:46.400 --> 00:25:48.480
Was there anything that came to mind?
00:25:48.480 --> 00:25:52.960
I I was fortunate enough to be there, as well as you.
00:25:52.960 --> 00:25:57.599
What would were there any schools that stood out for you that we could hear from now?
00:25:58.400 --> 00:26:04.000
Well, I think you'd we probably have to go back to those schools and uh ask them what how it worked and why it worked.
00:26:04.000 --> 00:26:09.599
But clearly there were some very big drops over 12 months in the levels of child anxiety.
00:26:09.599 --> 00:26:14.079
And um we know that um a number of those schools.
00:26:14.079 --> 00:26:15.759
Can I name them, Drew?
00:26:15.759 --> 00:26:17.119
Just I'm not sure.
00:26:17.119 --> 00:26:18.000
Absolutely.
00:26:18.000 --> 00:26:19.119
No, go for it.
00:26:19.119 --> 00:26:20.319
You can absolutely.
00:26:20.319 --> 00:26:32.559
Oh, Claremont Meadows, um, William Dean, um, um Angalow Public School, all of this, those schools showed significant decreases in the levels of anxiousness in kids.
00:26:32.559 --> 00:26:34.079
And you've got to hand it to them.
00:26:34.079 --> 00:26:48.079
That's that's because the population of teachers, the principal and the population of teachers within those schools applied themselves to, if you like, the large-scale therapy model.
00:26:48.079 --> 00:26:52.960
You know, they said we're gonna try and make a difference to children's anxiousness in our school.
00:26:52.960 --> 00:27:08.079
And it it paid off because over 12 months, what they did is apply themselves to a sustainable model, and that sustainable implementation, if you like, worked because they committed themselves to doing something about child anxiety in their schools.
00:27:08.079 --> 00:27:14.960
Uh, and that's only gonna benefit those kids, uh, obviously, as they move into later into high schools.
00:27:14.960 --> 00:27:26.480
I think we've got not to put I don't want to put too much emphasis on this, Drew, but I think we've got a an opportunity with the anxiety project to make a difference to a whole generation of kids.
00:27:26.480 --> 00:27:27.920
I absolutely think that.
00:27:27.920 --> 00:27:34.720
I I don't think I'm overstating it, because I think it is it is uh a problem that needs definitely needs addressing.
00:27:34.720 --> 00:27:39.759
I think we've got a whole generation of kids who are becoming more anxious over time.
00:27:39.759 --> 00:27:44.640
Can we change the circumstances around them to to help them to be less anxious?
00:27:44.640 --> 00:27:46.880
I think we've got the proof that you can.
00:27:47.839 --> 00:27:49.680
Yeah, very powerful.
00:27:49.680 --> 00:27:56.960
And we'll go to those clips now to have a listen to the impact from the well-being seminar.
00:27:57.279 --> 00:28:00.640
Uh I think uh Carmen Betsy is very powerful.
00:28:00.640 --> 00:28:04.160
Um, you know, when she talks about throwing the hand grenade.
00:28:04.559 --> 00:28:14.240
One of our students was having a bit of a moment and he said, I had my chair, and then my friend came over, he thought it was his chair, and it resulted in him yelling, screaming.
00:28:14.240 --> 00:28:16.480
He stormed out of the classroom from that.
00:28:16.480 --> 00:28:19.519
Do you think your reaction matched the event?
00:28:19.519 --> 00:28:21.279
And he goes, Oh, no way.
00:28:21.279 --> 00:28:23.200
My amygdala threw a grenade.
00:28:23.200 --> 00:28:24.400
Bow amygdala.
00:28:24.400 --> 00:28:27.039
Bit like a lizard brain, they're always scared of everything.
00:28:27.039 --> 00:28:30.480
And he said, Well, I could just talk to my amygdala, tell it to calm down.
00:28:30.480 --> 00:28:32.960
It's not in danger, we're okay.
00:28:32.960 --> 00:28:39.039
He was able to explain what happened, how he felt, in a way that made sense to both of us.
00:28:39.039 --> 00:28:49.759
When he went back to the classroom and he was explaining to his teacher and his friend about the grenade getting thrown and all the rest of it, they're there going, Yeah, right, I get it, I get it.
00:28:50.160 --> 00:28:54.720
Okay, Michael, how powerful was just reflecting on that?
00:28:54.720 --> 00:28:57.920
How powerful was that that we've just heard?
00:28:58.559 --> 00:28:59.759
I think it's very powerful.
00:28:59.759 --> 00:29:12.319
I think the stories around what the children can do uh and what they've um being able to reflect on, and the teachers being able to say, Oh, I can see this child taking control of himself.
00:29:12.319 --> 00:29:22.799
I can see this child uh is managing their um amygdala or managing their anxiety and it's playing out before my eyes, you know, in the school environment.
00:29:22.799 --> 00:29:24.720
I think that's just a wonderful thing.
00:29:25.039 --> 00:29:26.160
Absolutely, Michael.
00:29:26.160 --> 00:29:32.880
Now let's listen to Tim Lloyd, principal of Flumpton High School from the high school perspective.
00:29:33.279 --> 00:29:42.400
If all of the things that you see, you hear, you do link to that notion of building resilience, then our kids become more successful.
00:29:42.400 --> 00:29:53.039
Adjustments are deliberate strategies that lead to increased function through enabling the child to overcome situations that were previously preventing success.
00:29:53.039 --> 00:29:56.319
The more accommodations we have, the greater challenge.
00:29:56.319 --> 00:29:59.839
If you're trying to accommodate 1,200 kids, we're not going to be successful.
00:29:59.839 --> 00:30:02.720
So everything is built for everybody.
00:30:02.720 --> 00:30:13.519
It's consistent in that, irrespective of what classroom you walk into in the morning, it's the same as the one across the corridor and across the other side of the school.
00:30:13.759 --> 00:30:19.119
And I think the other thing that's come up, Drew, is that parents are getting involved as well.
00:30:19.119 --> 00:30:27.920
So what we've seen in the project is where the schools run an education series for parents on child anxiety.
00:30:27.920 --> 00:30:30.640
And I'm avoiding the word parenting group.
00:30:30.640 --> 00:30:40.640
I'm trying to think about a way to cast it so that it's not about parenting education per se, but it's helping your child with his or her anxiousness.
00:30:40.640 --> 00:30:43.039
Parents are looking for solutions.
00:30:43.039 --> 00:30:44.720
They're looking for ideas.
00:30:45.920 --> 00:30:47.279
Yeah, yeah.
00:30:47.279 --> 00:30:48.319
Can we go there?
00:30:48.319 --> 00:30:54.000
Because it's a place that you don't it's a really sensitive space as educators.
00:30:54.000 --> 00:30:58.000
You don't want to tell the parent on how to parent their kid.
00:30:58.000 --> 00:31:05.039
Similar to the parent, you wouldn't like the parent coming to tell the educator how to teach, so to speak.
00:31:05.039 --> 00:31:05.759
Speak.
00:31:05.759 --> 00:31:13.039
So there's how how's the anxiety bridging that that gap, so to speak?
00:31:13.680 --> 00:31:18.240
Well, we know again, we'll go back to tools here, back to the the basis for this.
00:31:18.240 --> 00:31:21.279
We know that uh the interactions really matter.
00:31:21.279 --> 00:31:21.759
Uh-huh.
00:31:21.759 --> 00:31:24.880
If you change the interactions, you help address the anxiety.
00:31:24.880 --> 00:31:31.039
So a key concept that we teach in the project is called uh unhelpful accommodations.
00:31:31.039 --> 00:31:35.839
Often what's happening for parents who are trying their best, they're absolutely trying their best.
00:31:35.839 --> 00:31:51.440
But sometimes when they're jumping in too much and not tolerating the child being upset or struggling, and then more helping the child to work it out themselves, what they're doing and jumping in sometimes is called accommodation.
00:31:51.440 --> 00:31:54.480
And once parents recognize that, they stop doing it.
00:31:54.480 --> 00:31:56.319
The research is really clear on this.
00:31:56.319 --> 00:32:16.000
What it's saying is that when parents appreciate that by jumping in all the time, and you can do this kind of gently, softly, but still challenging, um, in uh sessions with parents, once they understand that concept of accommodation, then they they will stop accommodating unhelpfully.
00:32:16.000 --> 00:32:21.839
There are accommodations that are helpful, some but they're leading towards autonomy and independence.
00:32:21.839 --> 00:32:30.799
But the unhelpful ones are making the child more dependent, if you like, because they get rescued all the time from their struggles.
00:32:30.799 --> 00:32:39.119
So the issue is about how do you do that in tolerable doses so that the child builds up his or her capacity over a period of time.
00:32:39.119 --> 00:32:46.319
The feedback from the teachers who have been running these child anxiety courses has been terrific.
00:32:46.319 --> 00:33:01.519
Like the parents who whom who themselves might be professionals, like lawyers and psychologists and GPs, even they are picking up new things to think about when they're talking to their children, not rescuing them.
00:33:01.519 --> 00:33:14.880
And if we go back to, you know, circle back to what we were saying, prepare the child for the road, not the road for the child, means ultimately I need to help build up their inner resourcefulness, their capacity to manage difficulties as they come along.
00:33:16.319 --> 00:33:17.119
Absolutely.
00:33:17.119 --> 00:33:28.559
So, in terms of where, so well addressed, where do parents in terms of is there a time frame they come into the project is where I'm going with this question.
00:33:28.559 --> 00:33:33.200
Do they do they start off in terms of do we do we teach?
00:33:33.200 --> 00:33:39.279
I'm a uh pretending I'm a novice, I'm I want to know a further about the anxiety project.
00:33:39.279 --> 00:33:50.319
Am I getting parents into my school to start with, or what's been the best models or what is the model of the anxiety project to work that through?
00:33:50.319 --> 00:33:56.960
Because there's some questions that I'm thinking of principals and educators listening, going, where do I start with this?
00:33:56.960 --> 00:34:00.799
I I I can see the problem, but how do I start?
00:34:01.519 --> 00:34:05.599
Well, I mean, in the sequence on trainings, we'll call the trainings plural.
00:34:05.599 --> 00:34:11.679
Uh the first thing is to help principals know what the project's about because they're going to have to lead it.
00:34:11.679 --> 00:34:12.079
Yeah.
00:34:12.079 --> 00:34:16.239
The second part is to choose what's called an IC or an implementation coach.
00:34:16.239 --> 00:34:22.719
So that's either a deputy or an AP or somebody who you think's got a good internal locus of control.
00:34:22.719 --> 00:34:25.280
The third thing is to train the teachers up.
00:34:25.280 --> 00:34:25.760
Yeah.
00:34:25.760 --> 00:34:33.360
The fourth thing is to train the students up, and then down the line, it's have a have a look at training the the parents up.
00:34:33.360 --> 00:34:43.760
I'll go next next week I'm going off to Sydney and I'll be training a group of about 150 um parents over at Ovally, which is down in the south of Sydney.
00:34:43.760 --> 00:34:53.280
Um, but in the project, what we tend to do is to train up the teachers to be able to run parent projects, if you like, as part of what they do.
00:34:53.280 --> 00:34:55.519
Um, and it's it's been amazing.
00:34:55.519 --> 00:35:02.480
I mean, some of the schools, like in the northern beaches of Sydney, have got 150, 200 parents sometimes.
00:35:02.480 --> 00:35:09.679
I'm thinking that's about right, um, coming along to learn about how to help their children with their anxiousness.
00:35:09.679 --> 00:35:26.079
So I'm what I'm saying to you is that it there's a real need out there, a real hunger for how can I help my child be psychologically stronger because I don't know where to get the right help, or that the help's too delayed, or the help's too expensive, if that makes sense.
00:35:26.079 --> 00:35:38.400
So what the school is providing is kind of an ecosystem or a precinct in which they control the internal messages, but also they can provide resources for the community.
00:35:38.400 --> 00:35:49.280
And that's a just a wonderful thing that school teachers can find really motivating uh for their own work because they really enjoy, you know, being able to do that and make a difference.
00:35:49.920 --> 00:35:51.360
Yeah, absolutely.
00:35:51.360 --> 00:36:10.960
So it's it and what I've heard there is they're alongside you as as partners clearly, but in terms of the actual professional learning and and structures in the anxiety project, that comes after the education of the educator, so to speak, the leads, the students.
00:36:10.960 --> 00:36:20.000
Then we in-house make sure that's not perfect, but it's working at a nice rhythm.
00:36:20.000 --> 00:36:32.320
It's it's starting to show impact before we branch out further into to the parent body saying, Oh, we've we've we've we've solved this anxiety issue.
00:36:32.320 --> 00:36:49.199
Um not necessarily saying it like that, but we've we've we know we've had anxiety issues and we've working through they the parents come along in the latter part of that project, is that correct?
00:36:49.679 --> 00:36:50.960
Well, uh yes and no.
00:36:50.960 --> 00:36:58.400
I mean, at the very beginning of the project, it's really important to involve all the stakeholders and to let parents know what the school is doing.
00:36:58.400 --> 00:37:20.320
But then the other thing that I've seen some schools do is that when they begin teaching the students about their brains and about their minds and about, you know, fear and how to manage your anxiousness, that that often schools have been sending that information home to the parents to say, just to let you know, this is what we're teaching your children at school at the moment.
00:37:20.320 --> 00:37:32.880
And so it begins a conversation around the around the school, around this idea that the school is doing some things to help uh my child to manage his or her anxiousness over time.
00:37:32.880 --> 00:37:51.360
And that's why I think a whole of population approach is so important, true, because if you can um equip the adults around the child and change the way that they interact with the child uh in a good way, obviously, then you can improve the anxiousness over time.
00:37:52.239 --> 00:37:53.280
Yeah, yeah.
00:37:53.280 --> 00:38:08.400
Well, thank you again for explaining that, unpacking in detail for people who may not be aware of or are considering as part of next year in terms of the uptake.
00:38:08.400 --> 00:38:14.320
Thank you again for the time today, your leadership in the Anxiety Project, your clear mission.
00:38:14.320 --> 00:38:22.719
The anxiety project continues to be, and I say this lightly, one of the most data-driven well-being initiatives in Australia.
00:38:22.719 --> 00:38:27.760
Um, and it's a credit to yourself and that those around you.
00:38:27.760 --> 00:38:35.119
And we can see, Michael, the the impact, which is the most important piece of so far, the impact of the work.
00:38:35.119 --> 00:38:36.880
Thanks, Drill.
00:38:36.880 --> 00:38:39.360
Okay, terrific.
00:38:39.360 --> 00:38:42.239
And Michael Horton joining us today.
00:38:42.239 --> 00:38:53.760
And for those who are interested in the anxiety project, go to the newsouthwales ppa.org.au forward slash the anxiety project and register your interest.
00:38:53.760 --> 00:38:56.079
You can see the true impact.
00:38:56.079 --> 00:38:57.519
Thanks again for listening.
00:38:57.519 --> 00:39:03.920
And as always, keep learning, leading, and supporting the well-being in your schools.
00:39:03.920 --> 00:39:09.760
Before we finish today, let's take a moment to hear from those making the real difference.
00:39:09.760 --> 00:39:12.639
Schools leading through the anxiety project.
00:39:12.639 --> 00:39:18.719
And then some final words from Professor Terry Laidler and Professor Patrick McGorrie.
00:39:18.719 --> 00:39:26.559
In 2010, Patrick McGorrie was named Australian of the Year and later became an officer of the Order of Australia.
00:39:26.559 --> 00:39:36.960
His lifelong advocacy continues to shape how we understand and respond to youth mental health in Australia and across the world.
00:39:39.280 --> 00:39:45.920
The Anxiety Project works because it helps people feel empowered to take control of their anxious feelings.
00:39:45.920 --> 00:39:50.880
It helps them to build a tool belt to be able to cope with daily life challenges.
00:39:51.360 --> 00:40:00.719
We did discuss the need for a consistent language to be used across staff and just that common understanding, and we knew that that consistency was going to be the key to the project.
00:40:01.039 --> 00:40:05.599
We show at our school that we're all human and it's okay to experience anxiety.
00:40:05.599 --> 00:40:12.079
It's also okay to have a good day, a bad day, but to have each other by our sides, that's the number one thing.
00:40:25.519 --> 00:40:28.800
Resilience is an outcome, it's not a in innate quality.
00:40:28.800 --> 00:40:35.679
What you're doing is a much more collectivistic, a more culture based sort of approach to this, which is a much better way to think about it.