Beyond Advice: How Human-Centered Leadership Transforms Schools

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Welcome back to Professional Learnings, the New South Wales Primary Principals Association Educational Leadership Podcast.
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It is so good to have you with us as we officially kick off season four.
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This season is about genuine engagement.
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It's about connection.
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It's about learning from each other.
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And there is no better way to launch that vision than with the conversation you're about to hear.
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It's a discussion that perfectly bridges our reflections on the past with our vision for the future.
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Today's conversation, I'm talking with the incredible Annette Gray, an executive coach who specialises in human-centred leadership.
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Our conversation was so impactful that I knew it had to be the one to start this new chapter.
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So let's not wait any longer.
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Here is my conversation with the brilliant Annette Gray, kicking off season four of Professional Learnings.
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Welcome back to Professional Learnings, the New South Wales PPA Educational Leadership Podcast.
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That's great to have your company.
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This podcast aligns to the values of the New South Wales Primary Principals Association.
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That is the values of principal well-being, principals as lead learners, as well as supporting principals to lead school operations.
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If you enjoy this podcast, don't forget to subscribe for further updates.
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Now let's get into today's latest episode.
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I'm honoured to speak with someone whose life work is helping leaders navigate not only everyday challenges, but also some of the toughest moments imaginable.
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My guest today is Annette Gray, leadership coach, facilitator, and mentor whose mission is to empower leaders to transform its conversations and create more human-centred and inclusive cultures.
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From starting as a high school teacher to leading complex culture changes, projects across industries and their insights resonate deeply with anyone leading people through change and challenge.
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And for those of us in education and network supporting educational leaders in the recovery phase after the devastating Black Summer bushfires of 2019 and 20 is a powerful example of how coaching and leadership conversations can be a lifeline in times of crisis.
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With that, Annette, a welcome to our podcast.
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Great to have you with us.
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Thank you so much, Drew.
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I look forward to the conversation with you today.
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Yeah, as am I.
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And let's well, let's start for the audience who may not know you.
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Let's start at the beginning.
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You grew up in Sydney, spent some time, as I've done my research, in the Philippines as a child, and eventually found yourself teaching in high schools.
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How did those early experiences shape your love for learning, teaching, and ultimately coaching, Annette?
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I think, you know, when I reflected on it, um, you know, it's interesting.
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I grew up with four brothers, and yes, we did live in the Philippines for five years because my dad worked for Qantas.
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Um, and what we always talk about at any of the family events, you know, funerals, birthdays, whatever, is what a profound impact our time in the Philippines had.
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So I was early years of schooling that I started my schooling in the Philippines and then only went, I was seven when I came back.
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So, you know, it was very formative years.
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But what it opened up for me is this acceptance of diversity and inclusion.
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And that is my passion now.
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How do we create workplaces, schools that are inclusive, human-centered, um, and diverse and and and honoring the difference?
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Um, and that stuck with me.
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And I think the other thing that stuck with me in my childhood, when I reflect on it, my mom wanted to be a teacher, but circumstances didn't allow her to go into teaching.
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But she was a um Sunday school teacher.
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Um, and then when I look at my family, that so much influence of teaching is in my family.
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My daughter's a teacher, I was a teacher, I still teach adults.
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Um, three nieces are teachers, like all from my brothers and my family.
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We've influenced people to go into education.
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My two sister-in-laws are teachers, so it and my five closest friends I had from teachers college.
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So it's such a strong influence about this love of learning and continuing to grow.
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And that's what I try and work with leaders on.
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That there needs to be this openness to change, to learn, to navigate.
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You know, we are now in ambiguous times.
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So this is where being open to look at things differently, AI is having such a big impact.
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So that's a long answer to, you know, the influences from the past.
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Oh, well, it gives us a really great insight into your background of who Annette Gray is and and also the the alignment, as you you've clearly outlined, the alignment with educators as well.
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All of the people in your in your closest circle are educators.
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So education, what I'm hearing, really resonates for you.
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And you can see the power of education and the impact of education.
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And if we move into talking about strong leadership in in the work that you're leading, I want to talk about, or we if we can, about strong leadership and meaningful conversations, which were absolutely they were really crucial in the 2019-2020 bushfires here in Australia.
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And that is reflecting four nearly five years ago now, or even longer, five, six years ago.
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And you supported educational leaders after the fires during the recovery phase.
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Annette, could you share what you witnessed in terms of the emotional and and the professional toll that it took on leaders and and communities?
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Yeah, sure.
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And and let me sort of preface it with when it happened.
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So, you know, 2019-20 were the bushfires, and a lot of schools got impact in in rural and remote areas.
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Um, and there was a wonderful project that I I think it was Kathy Pausen in the department actually led, which was the response how are we going to support these schools who have been really impacted and their communities have been impacted in huge, you know, big ways.
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So this was sort of 18 months later.
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And what they were noticing, and Kathy brought me in to do this work with um two of my other executive coaches that work with me, to support 50 schools that were impacted in a you know traumatic way, you know, during the bushfires.
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And so what we found their response, these principles that we worked with.
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And basically what we did, it was a well-being sort of coaching project.
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Um, and so we helped those principals have a sounding board, someone neutral that wasn't in the department to actually vent download, going, I'm actually exhausted.
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I've had 18 months of supporting my community, and it ended up the principals were the ones that supported the community broader than the school.
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Um, and then the other aspect is they had to rebuild physically their schools that were burnt down and that.
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So the principal was holding everything together, and they were just incredibly exhausted.
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Um, so we were really focused on their well-being and helping them understand what fully flourishing looks like for a leader.
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Um, and we use the Global Leadership Well-being survey, which is a beautiful survey that marries leadership and well-being, so that people can under, it's a self-assessment so they can understand where am I thriving and where needs some attention.
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So, this is what this coaching was about was looking at, you know, where have I neglected, given the the impact of leading the um support in the school and outside of the school?
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What have I neglected in my own well-being?
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And they could talk really openingly and honestly because it was with someone external to the department.
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Yeah.
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Um yeah.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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I I heard exhaustion.
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What were the other what were the other biggest challenges leaders faced in their communities?
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You mentioned obviously they've had to support their staff, they had to rebuild a a a community literally in front of them, um, and bring the team.
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What just there is that that alone is so many challenges.
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Were there any other challenges that even caught you off guard?
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One principle that I I recall w was sharing it was all the decision making that had to be made.
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And it got to the point of rebuilding physically the school, and so they had builders asking them questions all the time, the project manager asking them questions all the time.
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And it's like they just felt bombarded with I haven't got the energy to make any more decisions.
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Can someone take that part away from me?
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Because I'm just getting here each day.
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And and this particular principal, when I was coaching him, floods happened.
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So he had the double whammy of the impact of the fires and the floods, and he said, I I I just need some support for someone to just take this piece away from me so I can focus on the well-being of my teachers, my my team.
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And in your role, what what is a coach, as an expert coach, what what what advice could you give to that scenario for that principal who is obviously in that scenario?
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That would be hard for you as well, or who or the executive team that you were leading to give advice?
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Was there any advice, or is that a journey that they have to discover themselves?
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Generally, as a coach, that's our last port of call is giving advice.
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It's more about what is it you want?
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What would make this better?
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How would you know you're making progress and you're feeling like you're in a better place?
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What would that look like rather than jumping straight in and telling them because they're the experts in their world, they know what's going to work in their context.
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So you end up being more a guide on the side rather than sage on the stage.
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Um, I've got an example, lots of examples recently, where I've reached out for a bit of business coaching.
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And what I've noticed, every single one has gone, this is what you need to do, rather than what have you tried?
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What's worked already?
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You knowing your business, what what's what's worked that we can build upon that, you know, and and honoring all the effort I've made, uh, rather than just going into great advice giving.
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And I think that's what gets people's backs up when you have no understanding their contest and going, what you should do is X, Y, Z.
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So our role wasn't about telling people what to do because they know what's best for them, but it's bringing it out of them.
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And it's more asking, less telling.
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And they appreciated that because they actually appreciated being noticed for what they had tried, what had worked, you know, the the amazing support that they gave the community because there was a lot of trauma in the community.
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You know, now parents or family members were taking their lives.
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So the principle was in the firing line for that of like, how am I going to support, you know, that when I'm absolutely drained?
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Um, so our our role was how to get them back into a better place in terms of their own well-being and who we're in their circle of influence that can actually support them when they're trying to support everyone else.
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Wow.
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Wow.
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So so many powerful ways in which we could go in this conversation.
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How I guess how did you see that play out after the fires and that were there, for example, any conversations that help people heal and build trust or regain hope?
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I think what was m most beneficial is get the conversation right.
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So when someone is sharing their struggles or, you know, what they're not coping with, don't judge it.
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Just be there.
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And sometimes it it's just about listening and just about helping them work out what's going to be best for them.
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So what I heard amazing stories of principals doing this so well with with their staff.
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So and they didn't realize that.
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So we were holding up the mirror to, you know, this is really working, what you're doing.
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So how can you create more of that?
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Yeah, so if we move into that space of the lessons for educational leaders, many, I heard many educational leaders that that though they're listening to our conversation, they might feel still the effects of those fires or other crises like the pandemic floods or community trauma or other matters.
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For leaders navigating those challenges, how can adopting a coach-like approach help them to support their staff and communities?
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I I have a daughter who's a teacher, and she'll share with me the challenges that she has at the moment and the the behavior challenges.
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She has a U1 class and the behavior challenges that are just so extreme.
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Um if I was her leader at school, her AP or principal, hear it out.
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Not go into immediately go, oh, well, you need to do this.
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Because she had an experience of that.
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She worked in London for a year and she had an experience of a again, a really tricky cohort.
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And both examples were children that were impacted from COVID and they didn't have preschool years, you know, they didn't socialize with other children.
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So this was impacting their behavior.
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But the way the leaders in London dealt with it was just went, here are all the strategies that you need to apply.
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And she's going, Well, I tried that, I've tried that, I tried that, and I also tried that.
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So it wasn't honoring, she's a damn good teacher, she's damn good at behavior management, but they came in advice giving.
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So coach like is about finding out what is working with what and what they want.
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So I use this model solution focus, and it's a great way to coach and navigate to so what do you want from this conversation, Drew?
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What would be your best hopes from us talking now?
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Yeah.
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And then what difference would that make if you're able to do that?
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So for my daughter, I have got eight different behavior issues in my class.
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There's a lot of ADHD.
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There's, you know, um, there's on the spectrum, like I need support in how do I manage this group of children when I'm exhausted and I don't know what to try.
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I've tried this, um, but I really want support from you to how do I navigate this class?
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I tend to do that for her at home.
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That if her and her immediate super um AP is wonderful at this and is being coach-like here, but didn't happen in London.
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So I got the calls from London around they give me a hard time because I'm not not keeping my bookwork really neat.
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And it seemed really punitive what the focus was on book work rather than she's struggling with managing all these behavior issues.
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So I think it's allowing people to be open and honest.
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If here's what's going on for me, can you partner with me to work out what I need to do?
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But you don't need to be the expert.
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I can actually go away and do it because you can't shadow me.
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But help me work through it.
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Help me look at what I'm aiming for here, what it would be good enough, and have I had any instances of that already?
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So we're not delving into why the behavior issues, we're delving into what can you do about it?
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Yeah, and what would work in your classroom to be able to do it.
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And so, if all you know, and the schools who do this really well, who have created a coaching culture that have conversations like this all the time.
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These incidental, quick, I've only got five minutes, but gosh, that lesson was so hard.
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And I I don't know how to get myself back up to get back in there, you know.
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If they can have those incidental conversations with their leader or even a buddy, because buddies work as well, that you know, to support them, I just need a download of what's going on here.
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So I've rambled a bit in terms of your the answer to.
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No, no, it's it's really intriguing to listen to in terms of that mindset.
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And um, I didn't want to interject because of the of the people curious to say, I've for example, what would a busy principal, what's one small change I'm thinking they could make tomorrow that might help their their team feel more supported in that I think the key thing is being present.
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So if now's not a good time, when would be?
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Yeah.
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So that I really want to focus on what you're saying.
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Uh, but I've got these other five things I'm trying to juggle at the moment.
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So when can we reconnect?
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And I really want to hear what's happening for you.
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Um, and let's make that time, whether it's after school, it you know, for 10 minutes after school or whatever.
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Um, so being mindful in the moment, uh are you able to be present enough?
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If not, reschedule for another time.
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I think just that, so you can be there and listen really well.
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Um, and we're not always in that space.
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I'm not always in that space as a coach, and we can't be.
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We can't be that active listener and showing empathy 100% of the time.
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So we have to sort of get ready to go into that conversation.
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But that can still happen walking down.
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I'm going on playground duty, walking down five-minute conversation as I get to my playground duty.
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That can still work.
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Yeah.
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So that that's one thing.
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The second is listen to the feedback that you're hearing from people.
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Um, because generally, even if it's the one that most complains, they want something to be different.
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So, how do you help them get clarity around what they want to be different so they can be in the driver's seat of helping move that forward rather than just be the complainer of you have to sort this out?
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Yeah, everyone wants to be heard, and the skill of being a leader is ensuring that everyone is feeling they're heard.
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Really good.
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Practical, that's a very practical, easy.
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Can I want to pay attention?
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Let but can we do this at a certain particular time so that you're showing that the conversation is important enough to make sure that you have that time?
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So it's acknowledging that.
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So that's a really nice tip.
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So you're not actually man you're you're not diverting it, but you're actually putting a strategy in place, so you're not.
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Constantly balancing all of these different and you think about how many conversations a leader or principal would have in a day, and if they're not fully present, then it could spiral completely in another way if they if the respondent doesn't feel heard.
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Exactly.
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And how how do I bring my best self, best version of me to this conversation?
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And it would work with parents as well, you know, that you get the drop-in parent to have you got five minutes.
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Um, sometimes we have to put some boundaries around actually, I'm not in the best place to have this conversation, you know.
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So how do I I I love this analogy, um, Drew?
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It's called how do we meet at the gate?
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So it's relationships are like a paddock.
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You're on one side, I'm on the other, like our screen.
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So the the gate is, you know, where our screens meet.
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Yeah.
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So I'm responsible for my paddock, you're responsible for your paddock.
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And we only can ask people to meet at the gate.
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If we if I dive through the gate and try and get you to have my view of the world, I'm bringing you into my side of the paddock.
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Yeah.
00:23:16.960 --> 00:23:19.519
So how do we help others?
00:23:19.519 --> 00:23:30.480
You know, we have all the the difficult team members, you know, who will drive through the gate and go, you need to look after this, you need to do something better about this.
00:23:30.480 --> 00:23:36.160
Actually, no, you know, let's how do we keep the boundaries there around?
00:23:36.160 --> 00:23:38.079
Well, what is it you want?
00:23:38.079 --> 00:23:40.000
What would make a difference here?
00:23:40.000 --> 00:23:44.400
Yeah, what what you know, you have, I I've heard this a few times.
00:23:44.400 --> 00:23:49.279
So I'm really um, you know, want to be supportive of what you want.
00:23:49.279 --> 00:23:53.599
So, what would you see is required in this situation?
00:23:54.640 --> 00:23:55.920
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
00:23:55.920 --> 00:24:15.359
And and looking outside of those crisis situations, leading people, any people, whether it's in education or other sectors, what advice could you give to educational leaders, our audience, who are about looking after themselves so they can continue to show up as effective leaders for others?
00:24:17.519 --> 00:24:34.000
I think what I've noticed over the years, and more and more is being talked about in the theory around leadership and leadership development, is that self-awareness is the key skill of a leader.
00:24:34.000 --> 00:24:34.640
Yeah.
00:24:34.640 --> 00:24:37.279
And self-leadership.
00:24:37.279 --> 00:24:51.200
So that means there are a number of qualities that enable us to be a really good leader, and we and unfortunately, we haven't got great world leaders who are modeling this.
00:24:51.200 --> 00:25:10.240
Um, but I will mention Jacinta Aderne, her latest book, um A Different Kind of Power, is a wonderful memoir of what we're aiming for now in terms of the leadership qualities.
00:25:10.240 --> 00:25:10.880
Yeah.
00:25:10.880 --> 00:25:20.559
And she had kindness as the leadership quality that she wanted to always instill in her time as prime minister.
00:25:20.559 --> 00:25:31.039
And she, if you think back, she had and she had three major events in her first year of being prime minister.
00:25:31.039 --> 00:25:48.240
She had the the Muslim massacre in the um mosque, she had um COVID, and then there was some, I can't remember the third, oh, the um volcano and all the tourists that were stuck on that.
00:25:48.240 --> 00:25:51.039
So three pretty major events.
00:25:51.039 --> 00:25:55.920
And she said, I've got to show kindness to these people in this community.
00:25:55.920 --> 00:26:01.839
So there was a heightened level of self-awareness that Jacinda Adern modeled.
00:26:01.839 --> 00:26:13.119
Um and I think that that is for all of us, and particularly around we've got to lean into really challenging and difficult conversations.
00:26:13.119 --> 00:26:28.000
If we want cultures in schools to be fully thriving, we've got to do that direct management piece, which is I've got to have a conversation with the ones who aren't performing.
00:26:28.000 --> 00:26:34.799
Because the last 20 years I've been back in schools after having a 10-year gap.
00:26:34.799 --> 00:26:49.759
And what I noticed is as a sector, uh, as a sector, what happens is we're we have a passive approach to having direct conversations.
00:26:49.759 --> 00:26:58.880
And then we leave it, leave it, leave it until we go out battling and going, you've got to change and be quite oppositional.
00:26:58.880 --> 00:27:04.480
What we want to do is have it as part of the culture of the schools.
00:27:04.480 --> 00:27:12.720
So we are going to call out behavior that's not aligned to the kind of school we want to be.
00:27:12.720 --> 00:27:26.400
Because what I noticed is in people's careers, people would move from school to school to school and never being called out on that behavior that everyone found challenging.
00:27:26.400 --> 00:27:46.319
So we're going to a place now of, and the department of developed this direct management principles, philosophy, sort of thing, and looking at three things that will make it, you know, important to have this culture of direct management.
00:27:46.319 --> 00:27:53.279
Because some people go to the extreme when I want to have a conversation, they go, Oh, you're bullying me.
00:27:53.279 --> 00:28:01.680
Well, actually, no, I'm just holding you accountable to doing your role at a at a really good effective level.
00:28:02.000 --> 00:28:06.000
So they in this can can I pick up can I pick up on that?
00:28:06.000 --> 00:28:24.079
That's uh that's a very interesting point that you've raised because that is a I think that's a real fear in in leaders at the moment of the backlash of having the the tough conversation, so to speak, or the difficult conversation, whatever we may call it.
00:28:24.079 --> 00:28:38.960
You're calling out behavior, you're not calling out the individual, and there's a clear difference of line there, but in terms of how that is interpreted, is the key takeaway to support the person.
00:28:38.960 --> 00:28:56.400
That's ultimately what you're trying to do, to support the person, calling out the behavior, to stop that behavior which is inhibiting their performance, so to speak, or other people's performance, or the culture, or the climate in the in their space.
00:28:56.400 --> 00:29:10.960
So it's a delicate, uh it's a delicate act, and I guess in terms of the work you're leading, is that the is that a big part of the work that you're leading to help lead us through that space?
00:29:11.279 --> 00:29:19.680
Yes, definitely, because I find across all sectors, um, it's an Australian cultural thing.
00:29:19.680 --> 00:29:26.960
We haven't had good role models to how to have the difficult conversation and maintain the relationship.
00:29:26.960 --> 00:29:27.519
Yeah.
00:29:27.519 --> 00:29:35.200
So what people tend to do, avoid it, avoid it, avoid it, and then I have to really do something about it.
00:29:35.200 --> 00:29:39.759
So it's it's a big step to do something about it.
00:29:39.759 --> 00:29:53.119
Rather than, and what I love about what the document says for that the department have put about changing the culture around direct management is how do you be proactive?
00:29:53.119 --> 00:30:14.079
So what I love about a school I've worked with in Aura, they have actually been very explicit around we want a school culture like this, yeah, which we're gonna be constructive, we're gonna be coach-like, we're going to be clear on what is important in this school.
00:30:14.079 --> 00:30:23.440
So these proactive part that they've set up that, and we're going to have difficult conversations when things mightn't be working.
00:30:23.440 --> 00:30:31.680
Uh, but our aim is to help you move forward on that and to work with you to coach you to actually develop in that area.
00:30:31.680 --> 00:30:38.319
So they've been very explicit of what kind of culture they want to create, and they've called that being blue.
00:30:38.319 --> 00:30:40.880
And being blue is not down being blue.
00:30:40.880 --> 00:30:51.839
Being blue is around this tool I use a lot, which is a um 360-degree feedback tool around someone's approach to leadership.
00:30:51.839 --> 00:30:53.920
And is it constructive?
00:30:53.920 --> 00:31:02.720
Is it passive aggressive, or is it um sorry, passive defensive or aggressive defensive?
00:31:02.720 --> 00:31:11.599
So we all have triggers in how we respond if someone's going to sit down and have a conversation of how I've performed.
00:31:11.599 --> 00:31:12.400
Yeah.
00:31:12.400 --> 00:31:19.119
And so some of us go green and avoid, or go, okay, I'll do whatever you say.
00:31:19.119 --> 00:31:23.279
Um, some want to battle it out and go, I don't agree with that.
00:31:23.279 --> 00:31:29.680
Um, and others are really constructive, like the Jacinta Adern's in in the world.
00:31:29.680 --> 00:31:40.160
You know, she works with people, not whereas an aggressive way of being is I'm in power, I'll tell you how things are done.
00:31:40.160 --> 00:31:42.160
Yep, there's no negotiating here.
00:31:42.160 --> 00:31:44.880
This is I'm just going to tell you because I've got the power.
00:31:44.880 --> 00:31:48.000
Whereas the passive give away their power.
00:31:48.000 --> 00:31:53.440
And well, that's what the department policy says, so I have to follow that.
00:31:53.440 --> 00:31:58.240
You know, so it's how do you actually work with people?
00:31:58.240 --> 00:32:07.279
And I think one of the key skills for leaders, especially principals, and I've seen some good ones do this well, they manage up well.
00:32:07.279 --> 00:32:08.480
Yeah.
00:32:08.480 --> 00:32:12.400
And go, yes, we are going to implement that.
00:32:12.400 --> 00:32:16.400
However, this part is really important at the moment.
00:32:16.400 --> 00:32:26.799
So I will get to that in when we've addressed this, because in our context, this is what the school community needs the most at the moment.
00:32:26.799 --> 00:32:36.319
And the ones that did it well would not just be the compliant, they would be compliant, but after looking at, well, what's our context?
00:32:36.319 --> 00:32:52.319
How can we bring this concept in or bring this new strategy in rather than being punitive and just going to teachers, you just need to do this, you just need to follow these 10 steps, and the teachers are going, another thing?
00:32:52.319 --> 00:32:57.279
Like, how are we going to integrate it but in a respectful way?
00:32:57.279 --> 00:33:16.319
So having difficult conversations, keeping people accountable, uh, focusing on people's well-being and leading that as a principle that I'm lead, I'm doing the things I need for me to have my best version of myself show up.
00:33:16.319 --> 00:33:16.799
Yeah.
00:33:16.799 --> 00:33:26.640
And often what I see is the ones that aren't coping, the ones are new to the role, they will work around the clock.
00:33:26.640 --> 00:33:31.920
And they don't have a life outside of out of being a principal.
00:33:31.920 --> 00:33:34.000
So well-being, really important.
00:33:34.000 --> 00:33:39.519
Um time to develop people and don't make this onerous.
00:33:39.519 --> 00:33:44.799
It's incidental conversations that can help people move forward.
00:33:44.799 --> 00:33:49.119
And I think the last, because I listed about six challenges.
00:33:49.119 --> 00:34:04.319
Um, and the last one is the last one is things are ambiguous at the moment, things are complex, the world is complex at the moment, the impact of climate change, um, how do we be more sustainable?
00:34:04.319 --> 00:34:09.760
That like all the things that we were given before, it's changing.
00:34:09.760 --> 00:34:18.000
So, how as a leader of a school, how do I be open to managing through ambiguity?
00:34:18.000 --> 00:34:25.519
And I'm not gonna have all the answers, but we're gonna work together to work it out as we go forward.
00:34:26.320 --> 00:34:28.000
It's easy, easy.
00:34:28.000 --> 00:34:29.599
Sorry, you go.
00:34:30.079 --> 00:34:39.920
You know, for me, I will get triggered if someone tries to prove you prove their view is right, and I'll wanna battle it out with it.
00:34:39.920 --> 00:34:41.920
So now I know that.
00:34:41.920 --> 00:34:56.159
I go, I've got to take a deep breath, and I've gotta go, okay, stop being judgmental, turn that volume down on that trigger, and how can I lean into the conversation?
00:34:56.159 --> 00:35:00.719
Yeah, because one of the things I like to do is be non-judgmental.
00:35:00.719 --> 00:35:09.679
I was just gonna say, one of the things I like to pride myself on is being non-judgmental.
00:35:09.679 --> 00:35:18.159
But if someone's doing this, that triggers me, and I've I've been I'm judgmental, and it's like not the person I want to be, you know.
00:35:18.159 --> 00:35:24.320
So, how do I do this self-leadership around what is it I need right now?
00:35:24.320 --> 00:35:34.000
Okay, I need to breathe, I need to redirect this conversation to another time when I'm better equipped to be able to do it.
00:35:34.000 --> 00:35:37.119
So I often say leadership is a bit like parenting.
00:35:37.119 --> 00:35:37.840
Yeah.
00:35:37.840 --> 00:35:42.000
We we trigger that in people when we're a leader.
00:35:42.000 --> 00:35:49.199
Yeah, they they they want to feel valued, they want to be supported, they want a scene for their uniqueness.
00:35:49.199 --> 00:35:55.440
Um, so how do we do that for ourselves is what is crucial.
00:35:55.440 --> 00:36:09.360
So I think I came across this uh 18 months ago at the end of 2023, I was lucky enough to go to Antarctica with a women in leadership program.
00:36:09.360 --> 00:36:20.800
Um, and during those 21 days in Antarctica, I learned a lot about what's called the inner development goals.
00:36:20.800 --> 00:36:43.440
And I'm not sure if many of your listeners will be aware of there's 15 sustainability goals that were brought into the Paris Agreement in 2015, which, you know, um focusing on climate change and leading that, um, having diversity, equal pay, there's a whole lot of things.
00:36:43.440 --> 00:36:48.960
This this will make us more sustainable world if everyone focused on this.
00:36:48.960 --> 00:36:56.880
And one of the key things around this, um, these inner development goals is self-awareness.
00:36:56.880 --> 00:37:02.880
How do we create more consciousness in the world?
00:37:02.880 --> 00:37:06.079
But then that comes back to in leadership.
00:37:06.079 --> 00:37:14.239
How do we create more self-awareness in leaders so they then can influence the change going forward?
00:37:14.239 --> 00:37:21.679
And I see that happens through coaching and not necessarily individual leadership coaching.
00:37:21.679 --> 00:37:27.440
I see it more in the shift in leadership development is more around group coaching.
00:37:27.440 --> 00:37:32.480
Because of the complexities and ambiguities that we're facing, there's no rule book.
00:37:32.480 --> 00:37:45.119
So bringing, I'm I'm doing this with leaders where I'm bringing 10 leaders together, either within the same context or with schools, it can be a whole 10 principles.
00:37:45.119 --> 00:37:52.559
And we're going to work on each other's leadership development based on what others are doing.
00:37:52.559 --> 00:37:58.000
And so you're opening that awareness around, hey, there's a different way of doing that.
00:37:58.000 --> 00:38:09.199
Whereas if we just keep it at individual coaching, people tell themselves stories and believe though those stories, and sometimes it's not accurate.
00:38:09.199 --> 00:38:16.960
So this group coaching approach actually helps people get perspective.
00:38:16.960 --> 00:38:20.000
Actually, there's a multiple other ways of doing it.
00:38:20.000 --> 00:38:22.159
Had you tried this before?
00:38:22.159 --> 00:38:28.159
So it's working on their own leadership development, but with others.
00:38:28.159 --> 00:38:37.519
So gone are the days that we can define a leader's role based on these competencies, because no human has all of them.
00:38:37.519 --> 00:38:39.119
We have spikes.
00:38:39.119 --> 00:38:43.840
We have things that we're really good at and things that we're not so good at.
00:38:43.840 --> 00:38:47.679
So the concept is complementary leadership.
00:38:47.679 --> 00:38:54.880
And this is what principals can do with their executive team, with anyone else who's in a leadership role.
00:38:54.880 --> 00:38:56.559
Who's great at that?
00:38:56.559 --> 00:39:02.320
And that we can really delegate them to do that, but I'll support you on the side.
00:39:02.320 --> 00:39:04.480
But you don't have to do everything.
00:39:04.480 --> 00:39:08.480
And that's what this group coaching does.
00:39:08.480 --> 00:39:17.440
We start with a tool, whether it's the well-being self-assessment or the it's called the lifestyles inventory.
00:39:17.440 --> 00:39:25.599
And it that's the one that looks at your constructive styles, your uh passive styles, and your um aggressive defensive styles.
00:39:25.599 --> 00:39:27.840
So it starts with self-awareness.
00:39:27.840 --> 00:39:29.440
So, where am I currently at?
00:39:29.440 --> 00:39:30.880
What's working for me?
00:39:30.880 --> 00:39:38.320
And what behavior have I really got to put some focus on, learn and see what others are doing around it.
00:39:38.320 --> 00:39:54.800
So they come in to the group coaching after an individual feedback around their results, which is done in private, they come into the rest of the group and the group keeps them accountable around their project of what they're going to change in their leadership.
00:39:54.800 --> 00:39:57.280
And that goes over six months.
00:39:58.159 --> 00:39:59.519
Yeah, yeah, terrific.
00:39:59.519 --> 00:40:08.079
So, in terms of let's you've alluded to the the programs that you could you tell us a little bit further about the programs that you that you have.
00:40:08.079 --> 00:40:16.639
There's I see you have leading or you've got foundations, leading coaching conversations, you've got mentoring programs, you've got group coaching.
00:40:16.639 --> 00:40:21.440
How might educational leaders benefit from engaging in programs like yours?
00:40:21.840 --> 00:40:22.400
Sure.
00:40:22.400 --> 00:40:26.239
Um, well, I I like to take people on a leadership journey.
00:40:26.239 --> 00:40:29.920
And the first place is foundations.
00:40:29.920 --> 00:40:33.840
How do you have coach-like conversations?
00:40:33.840 --> 00:40:37.679
And so it's in your toolkit, yep, of how do I do this?
00:40:37.679 --> 00:40:45.039
And the key part of that is how do I be more solution focused in the way I lead?
00:40:45.039 --> 00:40:53.920
So it's not about some people get confused that being solution focused is come to me with your solutions, don't come to me with problems.
00:40:53.920 --> 00:40:55.760
That's not it at all.
00:40:55.760 --> 00:41:03.920
It's about how do we co-create the solution based on what you've tried already and based on what you want.
00:41:03.920 --> 00:41:13.840
So I'm going to be a co-creator with you of these solutions rather than tell you what to do or expect you to go away and think about what you need to do.
00:41:13.840 --> 00:41:14.320
Yeah.
00:41:14.320 --> 00:41:20.880
So this is get get the basics of how to have effective coaching conversations, is the first.
00:41:20.880 --> 00:41:26.880
And that's when the choice after that is then doing group coaching.
00:41:26.880 --> 00:41:33.599
Because I want people to have the foundations of how do you need to be with others?
00:41:33.599 --> 00:41:34.320
Yeah.
00:41:34.320 --> 00:41:41.119
So you need to be open, curious, interested, have a growth mindset, be solution focused.
00:41:41.119 --> 00:41:55.440
So those they're the foundations to then if you come into group coaching and uh you're supporting others to grow and learn in that cohort, which is 10, and we meet for two hours every month for six months.
00:41:55.440 --> 00:42:03.920
And then finally, for the for the um elite athletes of the leadership world, um, then I'll work with people one-to-one.
00:42:03.920 --> 00:42:08.480
But I want those foundations and the group coaching experience.
00:42:08.480 --> 00:42:15.519
So because I think when you're coming into individual coaching, you really want to be there.
00:42:15.519 --> 00:42:21.840
And you really want to be, you know, those elite athletes in the principal world.
00:42:21.840 --> 00:42:24.880
You know, they really want to make a difference.
00:42:24.880 --> 00:42:32.559
And that's where the one-to-one support comes in after they've opened their eyes to other approaches.
00:42:32.559 --> 00:42:34.320
What have others done?
00:42:34.320 --> 00:42:37.280
Is that all making sense?
00:42:37.920 --> 00:42:38.960
Yeah, terrific.
00:42:38.960 --> 00:42:39.599
Absolutely.
00:42:39.599 --> 00:42:47.119
I'm just taking it all in, thinking of from a principal perspective of all the different options of where to start with this journey.
00:42:47.119 --> 00:42:49.119
I'm curious about coaching.
00:42:49.119 --> 00:42:50.559
I'm thinking about it.
00:42:50.559 --> 00:42:51.840
Where do I start?
00:42:51.840 --> 00:42:52.800
Where's the journey?
00:42:52.800 --> 00:43:13.280
And we'll put all of those notes and links into our showcase notes as well for our listeners as well for interested in terms of it's a matter of where do I start and where do I want to go, which is part of the the scaffolding, I suspect, in the coaching journey that you'll lead our leaders through.
00:43:13.280 --> 00:43:40.559
And what I heard was the potential of accountability with the group coaching and potentially even from other sectors, which is which is not necessarily a bad thing, as well, to learn from others and hear about, which it gives people it's actually sometimes what refreshing as well to hear from the other sectors of their challenges and how they would deal with whatever the challenges they're dealing with as as leaders as well.
00:43:40.559 --> 00:43:45.440
Yeah, and then and then moving into as you said at the end, that elite athlete.
00:43:45.440 --> 00:43:48.880
I really love that that really great thinking.
00:43:48.880 --> 00:43:59.679
Like, um you don't think of yourself as an for principals as elite athletes, but they really to be high performers, they they really need to think like.
00:43:59.679 --> 00:44:01.039
An elite athlete.
00:44:01.280 --> 00:44:02.239
Yes, exactly.
00:44:02.239 --> 00:44:18.239
And now I I didn't mention my mentoring program, which is a, you know, it's an easy way to get into the concepts and tools and and skills that I provide to people, which is a self-paced mentoring made easy program.
00:44:18.239 --> 00:44:24.239
And that's not just for leaders, that's of people who are mentoring who want to be a better mentor.
00:44:24.239 --> 00:44:34.320
Because what I notice about people are told you're a mentor, but never given any skill development of what would be a good way of doing this.
00:44:34.320 --> 00:44:45.360
People always revert to, I'm going to download all my wisdom and tell you how it's been for me, rather than actually you can be coach-like in your mentoring as well.
00:44:45.360 --> 00:44:55.039
So that that's an easy way to start if you want some people to develop these skills in your school around how how to be a better mentor.
00:44:55.280 --> 00:44:56.880
Yeah, such important to go.
00:44:56.880 --> 00:45:07.280
The default mentor process, you're a mentor whether you want to or not, but in terms of the skill set to be able to do that is a complete skill set in itself to be able to.
00:45:07.280 --> 00:45:17.599
So what I've heard is you have resources or a course that participants who are in that situation can go and access through your website.
00:45:18.800 --> 00:45:19.599
Yes, yes.
00:45:19.599 --> 00:45:20.960
And it's all self-paced.
00:45:20.960 --> 00:45:22.639
So they can do it in their own time.
00:45:22.639 --> 00:45:34.559
And what I've also made it, it is four hours of content and then four hours of practice with a real mentor, a mentee, sorry, um, and then come back and reflect on it, you know.
00:45:34.559 --> 00:45:38.639
So it's it's like I'm I'm the coach on the side.
00:45:38.639 --> 00:45:42.079
Um, you know, that they come back in and go, okay, how did I do?
00:45:42.079 --> 00:45:43.679
You know, what seemed to work?
00:45:43.679 --> 00:45:44.239
Yeah.
00:45:44.239 --> 00:45:46.639
Uh, but it's all all being recorded.
00:45:46.639 --> 00:45:50.960
It's all video content and and exercises and activities to do.
00:45:50.960 --> 00:45:52.400
So it's very practical.
00:45:52.719 --> 00:45:53.679
Yeah, fabulous.
00:45:53.679 --> 00:45:55.920
Such a broad range there, Annette.
00:45:55.920 --> 00:45:59.519
Terrific in terms of the overview that we've heard.
00:45:59.519 --> 00:46:04.480
Now let's get into some quick fire rounds we do with our guests to finish off.
00:46:04.480 --> 00:46:07.280
It's been a really great conversation with you.
00:46:07.280 --> 00:46:11.840
Let's start with one conversation that changed your life.
00:46:12.639 --> 00:46:14.480
I've actually thought of two.
00:46:14.480 --> 00:46:30.480
So one is the first leader I had, no, second actually leader I had after I left teaching and went into the corporate world, into learning and development.
00:46:30.480 --> 00:46:36.079
And I became part of a human resource organizational development team.
00:46:36.079 --> 00:46:47.119
And this leader, it wasn't a con, I suppose it was a series of conversations, but what I noticed, it was like, you're doing things different.
00:46:47.119 --> 00:46:50.320
I've never experienced a leader doing what you're doing.
00:46:50.320 --> 00:46:52.159
He was being coach-like.
00:46:52.159 --> 00:47:00.239
And this was in the 1990s, and it was before coaching as a profession came into Australia.
00:47:00.239 --> 00:47:07.280
And he had up on his whiteboard GROW, which is the GROW model.
00:47:07.280 --> 00:47:12.320
And I was curious around how he was leading.
00:47:12.320 --> 00:47:14.639
So it got me intrigued so much.
00:47:14.639 --> 00:47:25.199
My part my career path went down the leadership development path because I went, wow, he's doing it well, but I'm not experienced others doing it like that.
00:47:25.199 --> 00:47:28.159
So it was a series of just working.
00:47:28.159 --> 00:47:38.719
And this guy was not old, like he was 35 at the time, but he just was this incredible way of being with others.
00:47:38.719 --> 00:47:45.760
And I feel like I did some of my best work at that time because the way he was leading me.
00:47:45.760 --> 00:47:47.119
So that's one.
00:47:47.119 --> 00:47:54.719
And then the other happened in 2011, and that was around learning solution focus.
00:47:54.719 --> 00:48:05.920
And my way of being, the way I live my life, the way I teach people to coach is all about solution focus.
00:48:05.920 --> 00:48:19.599
And I'm now connected to a worldwide network of solution focused practitioners who have really influenced the the way I coach, the way I facilitate the way I be in my life.
00:48:20.000 --> 00:48:21.440
Well, that's interesting, Annette.
00:48:21.440 --> 00:48:22.480
Tell us more.
00:48:23.519 --> 00:48:35.360
It was a I previous organization I worked for, he was the managing director, and he said, I've come across this approach and I think there's something in it.
00:48:35.360 --> 00:48:38.880
And he was right, there was something in it.
00:48:38.880 --> 00:48:59.920
So we, three of us from that organization, senior leaders, did a 16-week solution focus online program uh with the University of Wisconsin and Mark McGurgo, who's a who's a leading um voice thought leader in solution focus that brought it from the therapy world into the organizational world.
00:48:59.920 --> 00:49:03.679
Um so yeah, it was him saying, There's something in this.
00:49:03.679 --> 00:49:04.480
Yeah.
00:49:06.800 --> 00:49:07.280
Yeah.
00:49:07.280 --> 00:49:13.360
What's a book that you wish every school leader would read?
00:49:18.000 --> 00:49:21.679
One I've got four.
00:49:22.800 --> 00:49:24.639
Looking forward to hearing them all.
00:49:26.159 --> 00:49:31.039
Okay, the first one would be Coaching A to Z.
00:49:31.039 --> 00:49:34.320
And it's by Heysan Moon.
00:49:34.320 --> 00:49:41.199
Um, and Hey Sun is a communication scientist from Toronto in Canada.
00:49:41.199 --> 00:49:51.519
And if they read this book, Coaching A to Z, they will get what Solution Focused is and get what the basics of what coaching is.
00:49:51.519 --> 00:49:59.440
The second one is called Love Plus Work, and it's by a guy called Marcus Buckingham.
00:49:59.440 --> 00:50:10.079
And Marcus Buckingham used to work for Gallup organization, and that he researched what 35,000 leaders and managers around the world did well.
00:50:10.079 --> 00:50:22.320
Um, this book is around how do you help people bring out their uniqueness and how do you get them to love the work that they're doing.
00:50:22.320 --> 00:50:32.159
And I think this is this is a game changer for for leaders in schools, but also other settings around what questions.
00:50:32.159 --> 00:50:41.280
There's only four that I need to ask weekly with people to help them find their own uniqueness so they love what they do.
00:50:41.280 --> 00:50:43.679
It's a brilliant book.
00:50:43.679 --> 00:50:45.760
And then there's two others.
00:50:45.760 --> 00:50:51.119
One is uh the second third one is how to work with almost anyone.
00:50:51.119 --> 00:50:54.800
And it's a guy called Michael Bungay Stania.
00:50:54.800 --> 00:50:57.360
He wrote The Coaching Habit.
00:50:57.360 --> 00:51:07.760
Uh, but this book is really good at giving practical things you can do that sets up relationships well in your work context.
00:51:07.760 --> 00:51:10.400
So in our in this situation, it's schools.
00:51:10.400 --> 00:51:16.639
What are the what are the things that we need to have a conversation about when you first come to this school?
00:51:16.639 --> 00:51:17.360
Yep.
00:51:17.360 --> 00:51:21.039
Or when you're new as a principal in a school?
00:51:21.039 --> 00:51:22.960
How do you want to work with people?
00:51:22.960 --> 00:51:27.519
Uh, but it's a negotiation, yeah, of how we best work together.
00:51:27.519 --> 00:51:35.519
So for you, Drew, you know, if I'm working with you, you know, what what how do you want me to be as your leader?
00:51:35.519 --> 00:51:37.760
You know, what's going to work best for you?
00:51:37.760 --> 00:51:45.280
I need autonomy, you know, or I need some space, but I need to check in with you once a week or every two weeks.
00:51:45.280 --> 00:51:49.360
And that's what that original leader did back in the 90s.
00:51:49.360 --> 00:51:53.920
He asked us, how regularly do we need to meet?
00:51:53.920 --> 00:51:57.119
Well, I said, probably only every three weeks.
00:51:57.119 --> 00:52:03.679
But when my project gets close to the deadline, I need weekly conversation, one-to-ones with you.
00:52:03.679 --> 00:52:05.679
So that's what he was doing.
00:52:05.679 --> 00:52:10.800
What Michael Bungo Stania says is about how to work with almost anyone.
00:52:10.800 --> 00:52:14.719
It's a negotiation that you need to sit down and work out how do you best work?
00:52:14.719 --> 00:52:18.639
You know, what do you need from me as your leader to bring out your best?
00:52:18.639 --> 00:52:23.679
And then the fourth, sorry, is called No Bad Parts.
00:52:23.679 --> 00:52:30.960
No bad parts is the guy that developed internal family systems.
00:52:30.960 --> 00:52:33.199
His name's Richard Schwartz.
00:52:33.199 --> 00:52:39.199
And he basically, this is where the self-awareness piece comes in for leaders.
00:52:39.199 --> 00:52:40.480
Know your triggers.
00:52:40.480 --> 00:52:58.000
And he's basically saying we have an internal family of little children that are inside us, and they get triggered at certain points when people say certain things to us that is a bit like how our parent did or our first teacher or first boss did, and we get triggered.
00:52:58.000 --> 00:53:08.000
So, how can I show some compassion to that part of me so I can then be in my best version of me going forward?
00:53:08.000 --> 00:53:21.840
So if principals and leaders in schools learn that for themselves, they're more likely then to be able to show be calm compassion to others when they get triggered.
00:53:21.840 --> 00:53:24.079
So that's where the self-awareness piece.
00:53:24.719 --> 00:53:27.119
What a wealth of knowledge you are in terms of giving.
00:53:27.119 --> 00:53:29.840
And I'm sure you've got probably another 10 as well.
00:53:29.840 --> 00:53:36.159
We'll put all the we'll put those books, great references in our links as well for our listeners as well.
00:53:36.159 --> 00:53:40.239
Terrific, really, and all different aspects of leadership as well.
00:53:40.239 --> 00:53:44.800
So uh so thank you firstly for for sharing.
00:53:44.800 --> 00:53:53.599
And now what's your go-to strategy to if you've particularly if you've had a tough day and you need to re-energize?
00:53:54.719 --> 00:54:01.280
Well, I I it took me a while to think about this, but I went walking with my dog this morning and went, ah, that's it.
00:54:01.280 --> 00:54:02.480
I know what it is.
00:54:02.480 --> 00:54:05.280
Um it's going.
00:54:05.280 --> 00:54:09.599
I now moved six months ago, I moved closer to the beach.
00:54:09.599 --> 00:54:13.840
So my happy place is seeing the water.
00:54:13.840 --> 00:54:24.639
So I'll often take my dog for a walk later in the day as well as sometimes in the morning, and seeing that ocean gives me perspective, you know.
00:54:24.639 --> 00:54:36.800
Um, so whatever getting out in nature is now well researched around it's important that we all get our, they call it the green prescription.
00:54:36.800 --> 00:54:39.920
You know, how do you get out in nature more?
00:54:39.920 --> 00:54:42.559
And that's how I do it at the end of the day.
00:54:42.559 --> 00:54:47.519
That's one aspect, and the other is I try and sit in silence.
00:54:47.519 --> 00:54:51.840
You know, you don't have to necessarily meditate, but I do.
00:54:51.840 --> 00:54:53.840
That's a morning routine I have.
00:54:53.840 --> 00:55:01.599
But even just sitting, closing your eyes for five minutes and going within gets things into perspective as well.
00:55:01.599 --> 00:55:04.960
So having that silent space.
00:55:05.360 --> 00:55:06.000
Yeah.
00:55:06.000 --> 00:55:18.239
Really practical advice for people listening, going, yeah, how when was the last time that you did spend five minutes in in absolute silence?
00:55:18.239 --> 00:55:20.800
And it's amazing when you do that, Annette, isn't it?
00:55:20.800 --> 00:55:27.199
How many thoughts can pass through that process?
00:55:27.199 --> 00:55:34.719
And I guess that's part of that processing of information that we do all the time that comes through this as well.
00:55:34.719 --> 00:55:38.800
Really practical, getting into nature and five minutes.
00:55:38.800 --> 00:55:41.119
So that's a challenge for our listeners.
00:55:41.119 --> 00:55:46.719
And I guess the last the last question I have is one piece of advice for leaders facing uncertainty.
00:55:47.039 --> 00:55:48.639
Don't try and solve it.
00:55:48.639 --> 00:55:58.159
You know, work with others to actually think about what how do we make sense of this uncertainty?
00:55:58.159 --> 00:56:05.840
And then in our context, what's what what's something small we can do to move forward on it?
00:56:05.840 --> 00:56:19.280
Don't try and be the fountain of all knowledge and have to work out on your own or with just your you know deputy or AP around what you're gonna do.
00:56:19.280 --> 00:56:21.920
Use your people.
00:56:21.920 --> 00:56:29.519
You've got adults working with you who are very capable outside of work and you know, manage their lives.
00:56:29.519 --> 00:56:34.000
Utilize their resourcefulness because they often have a different take.
00:56:34.000 --> 00:56:40.880
Um, so yeah, spread, collaborate with others to work it out.
00:56:41.519 --> 00:56:42.719
Yeah, terrific.
00:56:42.719 --> 00:56:44.159
Very practical.
00:56:44.159 --> 00:56:50.960
Thank you for for sharing that that overview of all of those gems that you shared with us today.
00:56:50.960 --> 00:56:55.360
Look, and it's been it's a pleasure to have you on our podcast.
00:56:55.360 --> 00:56:59.039
The important role particularly you play with supporting leaders.
00:56:59.039 --> 00:57:13.679
And I I can hear that in terms of from the onset of the the people that you're surrounded by are educators, the work that you've led, which I heard today, especially the recovery phase of the of the Black Summer Fires.
00:57:13.679 --> 00:57:22.639
And for anyone who wants to learn more, please visit annettegray.com.au or check out Annette's YouTube channel uh at Annette Gray Consulting.
00:57:22.639 --> 00:57:29.440
And there's an incredible amount of wisdom there for educational leaders or anyone passionate about leading people well.
00:57:29.440 --> 00:57:33.280
Annette, thank you again for your time and joining us today.