Small Town - Big Wounds. The Work of Becoming Someone New with Jack Hellmrich

Ashleigh: Hello and welcome to Processing in Public. ⁓ Today I have Jack Helmrich who is someone I grew up with. So we actually knew each other for, well our whole lives, we knew each other in person for about 18 years until we both went our separate ways And we're gonna have a chat today about ⁓ our hometown, our upbringing and ⁓ our healing journeys from some of the traumas that we experience.
JACK: Today I have Jack Helmrich who is someone I grew up with. So we actually knew each other for, well our whole lives, but we knew each other in person for about 18 years until we both learned our separate ways And we're gonna have a chat soon.
Ashleigh: and how we've changed as people and how we've reconnected recently on a lot of these topics. So thank you for coming, Jack.
JACK: Yeah. Thank you for coming, Jack. You're very welcome. Thanks for the invite. It's been great reconnecting so far. Yeah, it's been awesome. There's lots to catch up on. I know. It's really nice to see you now as an adult, like a... Obviously, you're the same person, but seeing this new, evolved version
Ashleigh: Yeah, it's been awesome. know it's really nice to see you now as an adult as like a obviously you're the same person but seeing this new evolved version of you that I never got to know. I don't believe in the same person, but in a sense, So much expansion, I guess, is a good word to use.
JACK: them the same person but in a sense yeah so much expansion I guess is a good word to use for it and evolution and we've both evolved so much from where it was back then.
Ashleigh: Yeah, So we start in getting to our chat ⁓ can you tell everyone a little bit about yourself
JACK: So before we start getting to our chat, can you tell everyone a little bit about yourself?
Ashleigh: ⁓ what you've been up to? ⁓
JACK: Yeah, sure. And what you've been up to. I can. So recently I've been on a journey for the last, well, I guess my whole life really. It's been an 18 year study, you could say. It's been a lot about leaning into the shadow side, lot of self-development, working through trauma.
Ashleigh: Yeah.
JACK: understanding patterns and self-belief as well, working through self-sabotage, addiction, even homelessness at times. Yeah, yeah, I was homeless there for a little bit. then that journey led me into the coaching world. ⁓ recently just embarked on ⁓ some coaching and ⁓ more towards the trauma-based ⁓ of things, though ⁓ also a level up at the same time.
Ashleigh: day. at times. wow. Yeah, yeah, I was homeless there for a little bit. And that journey led me into the coaching world. Yeah. So recently just embarked on ⁓ doing coaching and ⁓ leading towards a trauma-based ⁓ side things, though ⁓ it's a level up at the same time. So I went did a course ⁓ up in the Coast, which ⁓ was NLP. Yeah. And for people don't know.
JACK: So I went and did a course ⁓ up on the Gold Coast which was NLP and for people that don't know about that, that's neuro-linguistic programming. Incredible, incredible ⁓ modality I'd say. It's a great technique which is all based around language and how we talk to ourselves and the stories we tell ourselves and through understanding and listening to what people have to say, you can really
Ashleigh: just about to say that I was like can you tell everyone what NLP is? Incredible. Yeah. Yeah
JACK: pinpoint to where you know those patterns are and the cycle or reinstall new beliefs and patterns ⁓ them. ⁓ it's pinpointing the moment where you ⁓ that belief? ⁓ ⁓
Ashleigh: ⁓ Yeah So it's pinpointing the moment where you've created that belief and essentially recognizing it and creating like a new belief and replacing it Absolutely, it's more like we've really to explain it, we've all got choices around what we choose to hang on to. And we don't realize that. We are product of our environment.
JACK: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. It's more like we've really to explain it, we've all got choices around what we choose to hang on to. And we don't realize that because we are a product of our environment and how we grow up and everything like installed in us from a very young age. We don't really have a choice until we gain the awareness around what's actually going on where we can start working on it.
Ashleigh: Yeah ⁓ Yeah, it's like something Will Smith said where he's like it's not your fault that you know that your dad was an alcoholic but it is your responsibility to fix what's going on in your now adult life because of that. Yeah, it's the responsibility for those around you and yourself. Yeah. Obviously we want to have good lives and be happy right? Yeah, exactly.
JACK: Exactly. Yeah, it's a responsibility for those around you and yourself and obviously we want to have good lives and be happy, right? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and if we keep blaming everybody else, you know, we're just holding ourselves back. and what could be a really amazing night? Yeah, absolutely.
Ashleigh: Yeah, from what could be a really amazing life. Yeah, absolutely. Okay, so the first thing that we're going to talk about today is our shared history and ⁓ our experience as kids growing up in the same town. ⁓ Our hometown was called Agneswater. ⁓ I even know what the population was when we were little, little kids. ⁓
JACK: Oh would have been 4000 maybe less. What? Way less, I reckon it was way less. I'm pretty sure it was like 2000 when I left. Oh wow. I don't know, 3000 maybe? All I remember is one road in, one road out. One road, and dirt road. And dirt. That was dirt and...
Ashleigh: Way less, I reckon it was way less. I'm pretty sure it was like 2000 when I left. I don't know, 3000 maybe? And dirt road. Dirt road in, dirt road out. One little, like the down near the beach, it was bread and... Yeah, and it had one little bowser. Because we didn't have the petrol station at first. Because you lived there when you were... What year did you guys move there? Yeah.
JACK: Tucker's shop. Yeah. ⁓ that's right. do remember that. true. Yeah. It was, I was probably three years old. Yeah. Even maybe even younger. Yeah. We're living in train carriages.
Ashleigh: Yeah, it was 1993 I think for us, 1993 or 94. yeah, yeah and just the Tavern. I don't know about the post office, was that there?
JACK: Yep. They've been around the same time. Yep. And just the tavern. Yep. I don't know about the post office. That was it really. was like maybe, I think a cop shop with somebody's house. Yep. It was pretty old school. Yeah. I remember the doctors was like someone's house. Yeah. It wasn't someone's house, but like it was a house.
Ashleigh: Yep. Yeah, I remember the doctors was like someone's house. Like it wasn't someone's house, but like it was a house right near the school. Do you remember when it was there, Dr. White? Yeah. So very, very small town, incredibly small, not a lot there. So as you can imagine, when teens are teens, there's nothing for them to do other than to go to the park and get drunk and get up to no good.
JACK: Yes, I do remember Dr. White. Wow, that's going back. ⁓ Yeah, we did a lot of that. ⁓
Ashleigh: So what do you remember about the emotional environment we grew up in?
JACK: Well, apart from the dark history which we'll get into, there's quite a lot there. The environment itself with everyone around the similar age and a lot of young families. the community based side of it was amazing. It's just what was, you know, people were turning a blind eye to actually what was truly going on underneath the surface with a lot of things.
Ashleigh: Yeah.
JACK: That's a really good way to describe it. Yeah. I was thinking about this on the way down.
Ashleigh: That's a really good way to describe it. I was thinking about this on the way down because I was thinking, like for most of my childhood, the way that if someone asked me what Agnes Water was like, I would have said like, ⁓ it's the most beautiful town and ⁓ it's very family. That's somebody that you raise your family. But then there's this whole.
JACK: very family, somewhere that you raise your family. But then there's this whole...
Ashleigh: other lot of stuff that's going on that you, it's, don't know, that you just don't see
JACK: Yeah
Ashleigh: It's very quaint with little coffee shop the police station and everyone knows everyone. So everyone's really safe, ⁓ but then there's no ⁓ real recognition of like, ⁓ well there's still a lot of drugs happening. ⁓
JACK: There's still a lot of drugs happening. Oh, there was, yeah, there was so much of that going on. I really don't think up until I was like maybe 16, did I even think there were drugs in Like I don't think I realised that. I think I thought there were no drugs in Agnes. It's just this perfect little billboard image of this sunset and beach, you know.
Ashleigh: Like I literally don't think up until I was like maybe 16 did I even think that there were drugs in Agnes. Like I don't think I realized that. I think I thought there were no drugs in Agnes. Yeah, ⁓
JACK: ⁓ there's, ⁓ was a lot of that going on. I'm pretty sure every second family was doing it. You know, it was, ⁓ how it was. And I think because of that created a lot of tension or whatever between certain families as well. ⁓
Ashleigh: Yeah, I definitely remember there being like fallouts between families and not really understanding why because obviously those things weren't explained well to us as kids but now looking back I'm like ⁓ I think there were over crops.
JACK: Yeah. Yeah, fully, 100%. And the way I like to describe Agnes too, it's kind of like the dog town, know, like it was, if you've ever seen that movie, The Lords of Dogtown, was pretty much like that. You know, there was a lot of alcoholism going on as well. It was, you know, a party every second night. Like we'd all catch up. I think we've been at parties together when we were younger and all the families would be getting together and drinking and partying.
Ashleigh: Yeah. shapes of alcoholism. Yeah. Yeah.
JACK: who knows what was going on there.
Ashleigh: We used to have like barbecues and parties at our house. ⁓ And think they were all really drunk but I just didn't realize. ⁓ Like you know what I mean? ⁓ No idea what's going on. Do know what I do remember doing? This is gross. ⁓
JACK: You're probably eating the space cakes in the back of the panel.
Ashleigh: I remember as a kid going around and drinking all the bits of beer left in all the bottles. So disgusting.
JACK: How old were we when all that was going on? We were old enough to know what we were doing walking around and stuff so you're probably talking around 5, 6.
Ashleigh: I was like five, I reckon I was maybe five or six. And yeah, like all these beer bottles were left out on the barbecue table. They were like still there. They were still partying and drinking and barbecuing and stuff. And I was just like swigging all the leftover drinks from everyone. It so gross.
JACK: I like the wig in all the urban dreams. Yeah. It's so gross. I just wanted to be grown up already. And that's kind of the thing. mean it was the height of Australian culture back then too. It was just coming out of like those days where long hair mullets, know, hot rods, all that sort of stuff. That's right, beach life, know, fish and chips on the beach, sort of thing. was...
Ashleigh: Yeah, it was the thing that you did. Yeah, you had families over and you cooked up a bunch of sausages and the kids just ran off in the bushes lighting fires. ⁓ my god, the fire dangers. I'm going to talk about the fire dangers. ⁓ Yeah. Yeah. I remember my brother and I, I used to love making a little campfire. ⁓
JACK: There was a fire, year and floods every year too. It was full ⁓ on. ⁓ love making campfire. I would just every weekend or in the afternoon just go and set myself up in some rooms.
Ashleigh: And I would just every weekend or any afternoon, just go and set myself up in some little spot on the property and just make a campfire and just and boil a tin of water and cook a piece of bread on a piece of chicken wire purely because that's all I had to do. Like I have anything to do. But then I'm like, ⁓ I was probably like eight and I'm just like out in the bush lighting little fires.
JACK: Yeah. Just to be out in the wilderness. Yeah, carrying your light around with you. I know we had with the great thing about being in that sort of rural environment is having so much property to run around on though. It was cool. Yeah. Yeah.
Ashleigh: Yeah and that part was pretty cool. It was cool. Like my brother and I used to you know do a lot of imaginary play and just go off into the bush for like six hours before we'd come back. Yeah.
JACK: I did a lot of that too, like I had pet dogs growing up and I used to think I was Banjo Paterson or something going into big bushwalk and writing stories.
Ashleigh: Yeah. ⁓ for sure. I remember I did this. I think about my own so lame. Do you remember cadets in once we got into high school cadets? I joined cadets. Everyone used to call it space cadets. Now, but did you know what I did? I joined it, got the uniform and then never went. I just wanted the outfit.
JACK: Hahaha. wasn't as boring as the people that joined cadets. wanted the outfit.
Ashleigh: I wasn't that worried. I wanted the outfit. We were talking about clothes before. Anyway, so I had like two army outfits. ⁓ Didn't actually ever go kiddits. Wore them in the bush. ⁓ That's why I got ⁓ Yep. So I had eye.
JACK: Yeah. Didn't actually ever go to cadets. Did you wear them in the bush though? I them in the Oh, that's perfect. That's all you needed. I got them. That's the only reason. Yeah, so I had giant eyes.
Ashleigh: got into these army kidder outfits, painting our faces. We had walkie talkies on the farm. And so we just went out walking one day. We walked so far from our, like, you know where our property was on Round Hill Road? We ended up going through like a bunch of other people's properties and we came out at Bootmaker.
JACK: Yeah, good. yeah, shit, Bootmaker drive takes about an hour to drive around. ⁓ It's a long way.
Ashleigh: ⁓ ⁓ Yeah, yeah, yeah. But we gone like a long time. ⁓ And I back my ⁓ my God, I would have been like, where are my kids? But ⁓ I think anyone knew we were missing. ⁓
JACK: half the day. I ⁓ think it was pretty safe in that regards you know like we never really had to worry it's like because everyone sort of knew everyone.
Ashleigh: Yeah. When I think it's something that you just did so often as well, like we knew those properties inside out and back to front.
JACK: Well that's right.
Ashleigh: Like there was 200 acres.
JACK: ⁓ Yeah. ⁓
Ashleigh: ⁓ Like I could be anywhere on that property and recognize a tree and be like, I know where I am. ⁓ I know that tree and that shrub. ⁓ you Yeah, so there were obviously some really great aspects to it. Yes. Then there was some not so great aspects to it like the culture in families, I guess at that time, like a lot of 90s kids, we had parents that were the boomer generation and they were of a generation that still weren't quite talking about feelings and they weren't nurturing as such, I guess it was very much because I told you so don't do that or I'll smack the shit out of you.
JACK: We had parents that were the booger generation and they were of a generation that still weren't quite talking about feelings and they weren't nurturing as such I guess it was very much because I told you so don't do that or I'll smack the shit out of you. Yeah there was a lot of that going on. A of that going on. Yeah. A lot of domestic violence in lot of homes.
Ashleigh: A lot of that going on. A lot of domestic violence in lot of homes. Yeah, so obviously our generation, like a lot of kids, it's not like this is a unique story. It's something that many of us share in common is that we grew up with, I would say maybe just not very emotionally intelligent parents. And it's not to say that they weren't doing the best that they could or what they thought was good. I think they were, for the most part, a lot of parents were doing what they thought was right.
JACK: Yeah, so obviously, yeah. Yeah. ⁓
Ashleigh: ⁓ they just weren't maybe taught that there were other ways to parent.
JACK: Yeah exactly, I mean they were only operating from their capacity as well right. So who knows what their story was like, we've only heard parts, I've only heard parts of my parents of what they went through. So showing up and trying to parent somebody else through that, generationally that gets passed down the line.
Ashleigh: Yeah. Yeah.
JACK: and you're talking pretty severe events that installed a lot of trauma in, I guess, both of us that we carried through our adolescence. You know, there was like times where I remember being, it would be hard to name an actual age, but you know, waiting for mom to come home, I like.
Ashleigh: Yeah. Yeah.
JACK: three days or whatever and still have to take Crystal to school, my sister, or not knowing what mood dad's going to come home in, you know, walking around on eggshells and hear the car rock up, or is he going to be happy today or is he be angry? And obviously that combination of that disconnect between both of them also,
Ashleigh: ⁓ shit. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. ⁓
JACK: also caused a lot of friction then there'd be a lot of fights and you know it lead to a lot of abuse.
Ashleigh: emotional unpredictability ⁓ about like, is you're going to go at me? And for your mom, it's the absence unpredictability. Yeah. ⁓ Well, that's right. ⁓
JACK: Absolutely. Yeah, well that's right. Like we were on edge. didn't know what was gonna explode or not. And you know, if we'd have to be alert to get on top of it and call the authorities or something like that. Yeah, Yeah, like I remember times in six or seven, you know, some of the heaviest memories that carried through. Though...
Ashleigh: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, you as kids were thinking that. Yeah, absolutely. car out. Yeah.
JACK: I think there's silver linings in a lot of that. ⁓ As it was so heavy, it did install a lot of strength such a younger age ⁓ too. both of us could share some pretty horrific moments depending on how we want to go deep into ⁓ But in terms of ⁓ it educational purposes, ⁓ do you feel about that? ⁓
Ashleigh: think, you know, there's silver lining. Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ I'm happy to tell all sorts of stories. Yeah, I'm happy to hear your stories and I'm happy to tell your stories.
JACK: I do
Ashleigh: ⁓ Yeah. ⁓
JACK: a little bit of resistance that's normal. haven't actually shared ⁓ exactly like what ⁓ what happened. I'm happy to. okay feel that resistance. we have relationships with parents ⁓ and so it is a really
Ashleigh: Yeah, yeah, also, ⁓ it's okay to feel resistance. course we still have relationships our parents. And so it is a really hard line to walk between acknowledging the things that happened as a child ⁓ that you think you look back to when you're like, that was not good. ⁓ But also not wanting to shame your parents. ⁓
JACK: That you think you look back to. Yeah. But then also not wanting to shame your parents. Absolutely. We still hold so much love for them.
Ashleigh: Yeah.
JACK: matter what went down, know, there's still so much love there and respect. Yeah. Because they were hard times. Yeah. Like there wasn't a lot of money around. Yeah. You know, there was a, wouldn't call it poverty though, but we were struggling to survive and, know, we weren't the only family like that. No. I would say we lived in poverty. Yeah. Absolutely, lived in poverty. Yeah.
Ashleigh: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. No, I would say we lived in poverty. Like absolutely we lived in poverty. but ⁓ I think a lot of families in in Agnes. ⁓
JACK: No, it's It was kind of that hippie vibe, you know, and it was just we made do, we bonded together. The whole side of turning the blind eye to all the abuse that was actually going on was what we carried forward, moving forward in our lives, you know, and how we...
Ashleigh: Yeah.
JACK: it led into patterns and all sorts of different things and belief systems. ⁓
Ashleigh: Yeah, well these were all coping mechanisms that you built as a child and I think, I believe that there are no bad coping mechanisms. They keep you alive.
JACK: Yeah. There comes a point where those coping mechanisms are now doing more harm than good in your life. Yeah, absolutely. But there is a period of time where whatever it is that you're doing to cope is actually helping keep you going. Yeah. Whether that is alcohol or drugs or partying. It's easy to be like, ⁓ those are bad behaviors. Those are negative coping mechanisms. And yes, because they harm you in other ways.
Ashleigh: there comes a point where those coping mechanisms are now doing more harm than good in your life. But there is a period of time where whatever it is that you're doing to cope is actually helping keep keeping you going. Whether that is alcohol or drugs or you know, partying, like it's easy to be like, ⁓ those are bad behaviors. Those are negative coping mechanisms. And yes, because they harm you in other ways. But to a degree they actually were protective for a duration of time until they were now causing you more harm than good.
JACK: to degree they actually were protective for a duration of time. So they were now causing you more harm than good. Yeah, absolutely. They served a purpose, you know, and that's when you do a lot of inner child work, that's what you realize is like that part of that, you know, belief system or structure that you held or patterning or trauma and the fear response actually was serving as a protection to step in and your inner child was stepping in to hold you safe. You know. ⁓
Ashleigh: Yeah. Yep, well as a child when you're trying to make adult decisions and trying to protect yourself or protect your siblings and you're trying to look after yourself when you don't really have the capacity to do that. you're going to create some whatever mechanisms you can and they might not be very great ones and then you're just going to keep those as you grow up until you consciously make a choice to change them but essentially you've these little baby mechanisms ⁓ you don't have adult mechanisms to cope ⁓ with ⁓ conflict difficult in your life you've got baby mechanisms because you created them when you were a baby long before you should have been creating these mechanisms ⁓
JACK: whatever mechanisms you can. Yeah. And they might not be very great ones and then you're just going to keep those as you go. Oh absolutely. Consciously make a choice to change them but essentially you've got these little baby mechanisms. Yeah. don't have like adult mechanisms to cope with conflict and difficult times in your life. You've got baby mechanisms because you created them when you were a baby long before. ⁓ yeah, and that was our sponge years, right? That's where we're in our highest character development through those times. think they say it's from the age of like three to seven or something, is where we develop our character. And when you go through horrific events like that, that becomes part of your character. You know, and you kind of get stuck at that age of when that trauma was installed. You know, and then what happens when we grow up, when we grow older and turn into adolescents as we
Ashleigh: Yeah. Yep. Yeah. Yeah.
JACK: carry through different belief systems and those traumas turn into habits and behaviors and then we create patterns around it thinking that that's what we deserve and self-worth, self-love. Yeah exactly. It was ⁓
Ashleigh: Yeah. That's where it's become so easy to recreate the cycle as well. So in your, what was your home life like? It was...
JACK: Early on, like early days, was scary, though good at the same time. There was that dark side of things. Yeah, that's right.
Ashleigh: Yeah, like when it's good, it's good. When it's bad, it's bad. And that's how a lot of relationships that have unhealthy things going on or domestic violence, it's not all bad. And that's why people remain in those relationships. That's why it's never so simple as like, well, why didn't you leave? Because there's so much good in the relationship at times too.
JACK: It's not all bad. That's why it's never so simple. was like, well why didn't you leave? It's because there's so much good in the relationship at times too. You know, and we're hanging on to those good moments thinking, oh, it's not always going to be like that. And then over time we, we believe that we're actually the cause of their problems. You know, so we hang around, it's like, maybe I'm doing something wrong. And it's where a lot of the people pleasing comes into trying to save somebody and going, okay, I'll just, are you right? Do you need anything else? And then when that pendulum swings, you know,
Ashleigh: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
JACK: that pedestal is created where the other person is higher than the other without even knowing it like say if it was a male and female set up and the male was being you know abusive or narcissistic or whatever that male might not even know that he's doing that
Ashleigh: Yeah.
JACK: that's how he's grown up and that's his coping mechanisms. It seems normal for him to be in a relationship like that, you know? ⁓ And same with that if she's ⁓ in that relationship she it's normal because that's what she's seen all her life as well. ⁓ No.
Ashleigh: That's just how he's grown up. It seems normal for him. He doesn't know anything else. right? And same with that. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. They expect nothing different.
JACK: ⁓
Ashleigh: You know, I have never been in any really, really bad relationships, surprisingly. I think I have just had the one.
JACK: proud of you. When did he come in?
Ashleigh: I was like red line, like I'm not doing that. I don't want to be in a relationship with anyone like that. And anytime I've ever met someone who even shows a hint of that, I'm just like, out. I'm not here to fix you. You can work on your shit. I'm not risking my own safety and wellbeing to help repair other people. Yeah. Yeah. mean, the way you're shot now is so strong. Yeah, I think so. Thank you.
JACK: Yeah, and I mean the way you show up now is so strong as well and so much capacity you're very welcome and so much capacity for everybody so it's a real true testament to your character and and how you've developed and how you've developed as a person and your
Ashleigh: Yeah.
JACK: willingness to push through what you did, you know, and what we went through as well as kids. ⁓
Ashleigh: Yeah. Yeah. This is the thing. I feel like I don't really know much about like what you went through as a kid because like I, I know that you were the year above me and I, I did always see you as an angry kid. I remember you being angry. I remember hearing you go off at teachers or at people. Like it was, I just knew that Jack Helmrich was mad, but also like, and so like I knew that
JACK: did always see you as an angry kid. I remember you being angry. I remember hearing you got off at teachers or at people. I just knew that Jack held me to him.
Ashleigh: as a kid and as growing up, I've always thought you must have had a lot going on in your home life. ⁓ Your sister didn't seem like that at all. She like obviously masked a lot. Yeah, think she was a little bit younger.
JACK: Yeah, think she was a little bit younger too, like she's seen a couple of things
Ashleigh: Yeah, but maybe not as much as you.
JACK: Because we were three years apart. So when she was young, I think up to the age of like when she was around three, like there was, you know, a lot of stuff that of the heavy stuff was going on, the abuse and the physical abuse and you know, the fights. Yeah, exactly. Thank you.
Ashleigh: Yeah. Yeah. So as a kid, like you would have witnessed a lot of that kind of stuff. Yeah. Yeah. I'm really sorry that you saw that as such a little kid. Yeah. was extremely unfair. Yeah. To have to grow up so quickly. Yeah.
JACK: Yeah, it was extremely unfair to have to grow up so quickly and hold so much responsibility and learn how to parent and also try and save your mum and wanted to kill your dad at the same time.
Ashleigh: Yeah. Yeah, that's a lot for a little kid to carry. Feeling like they are responsible for their mum, like keeping their mum safe, as well as trying to keep yourself safe. And then you've got your little sister as well. That's a big load on our little boy. It's a lot for a little boy to carry. ⁓
JACK: Yeah, absolutely. And then you've got your little sister as well. Yeah. Like that's a big load on our little boy. Oh yeah. It's a lot for a little boy to carry. It was and I felt for so many years I hung on to that anger for, geez, till I was about 25 I think. Yeah. Like and that became my excuse and it also became my identity. Yeah. Because...
Ashleigh: Yeah. Thank
JACK: Having that stuff happen to me so young, using it as an excuse, like I had an excuse to play up. It's like, oh, don't worry about it. He's been through a lot. But I was aware enough to know that I could use it.
Ashleigh: Yeah. Yeah. That you could use that a little bit. Cause I was just about to say, you feel like at any point, like at school, were there ever any concerns raised by the school for your wellbeing?
JACK: No, I don't think there was like maybe if we had not been at school one or two days there might have been phone calls but at a certain age I started not going to school every now and then too you know yeah yeah yeah ⁓
Ashleigh: Yeah. Yeah. Like of your own volition, just being like, I'm not going. So was Jack's just skiffing again. Yeah. Cause I often wonder about that. ⁓ Obviously it was the nineties. And I don't know if, like, obviously, there would have been mandatory reporting. But I don't know if it was just kind of considered the norm, because I feel like there were a lot of kids who came to school maybe unclean, unclean or without food. And I don't know if those things were ever really reported to anybody or if it was kind of like, this is a rural area there are a lot of low socio economic families about. And it was just kind of like, that's just that family like those kids just come to school with only a pack of two minute noodles.
JACK: Yeah unclean, unclean or without food and I don't know if those things were ever really reported to anybody or if it was kind of like well this is a rural area there are lot of low socio-economic families about and it was just kind of like... that's just that family like those kids just come to school with only a pack of two minute noodles. Yeah I think there would have been like chats around a coffee table but there was no you know formal action yeah for sure yeah so if they thought it was severe enough where they've seen bruises on kids and that sort of thing which it never was that like they weren't hitting us or ⁓ well I know for me that wasn't the case yeah and
Ashleigh: formal action, right? Like they probably discussed these things in the good old staff room. ⁓ wasn't the case. You didn't get the belt? ⁓ yeah. You got the belt? Yeah just not in the face. Yeah see how you're like ⁓ I didn't get hit and you're like but you did get hit just not punched in the face. Yeah.
JACK: ⁓ yeah, did, yeah of course. It's funny like now talking about it, like yeah but that was normal. It's installed. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, just not punched in the face. Absolutely.
Ashleigh: And even the threats of violence are enough to actually be very damaging to children. Like children don't actually have to be physically hit over and over again to feel the effects of violence. Even threatening children to do very violent things to them is damaging enough. Oh yeah, it puts the fear in you, right? Yeah.
JACK: Yeah. ⁓ No. ⁓ yeah, it puts the fear in you right and also you know from it's actually quite interesting I was that was at an event recently and the lady that spoke, very powerful woman, she reminded me of something. She said, you know, from day dot as babies where what happens, you know, what, what's the process. So we're, we're born, we're birthed, someone holds us and then, you know, we get a cuddle and we start crying and then what's next, you know, we're told to shush. So we lose, we lose our voice from day dot, you know.
Ashleigh: Yeah.
JACK: and that's conditioned in us. And then also if it's a bit heavy, I'm not a parent myself so it's really hard for me to relate to that side of things and one day hopefully I will. I think I'll be a great dad. Thank you. You've done a lot of work to get into parenthood in a really good way. Oh absolutely and it's my responsibility as well to hold that space for myself now.
Ashleigh: It's a bit heavy. I'm not a parent myself, so it's really hard for me to relate to that side of things. Yeah, I think you'd make a great dad. Thank you. And you've done a lot of work to step into parenthood in a really good way. Oh, absolutely. Yeah.
JACK: But yeah, like being installed in us in such a young age, ⁓ conditioning and our parents having a lot of their shit going on too. Like sometimes it can be a lot to handle kids and... Yeah, kids don't understand their parents are people. Yeah, that's right.
Ashleigh: Yeah, like being installed in this in such a young age. shit going on too. Yeah, kids don't understand their parents are people. Like they don't like you just don't like you see your mom and dad as mom and dad and you don't realize that they have their own lives going on and they've got their own issues and their own crap that they're trying to deal with. And it's, hard for kids to see you as a whole person. Sometimes I try to explain to my kids cause you know, at times they can be very, very demanding. And I feel like I spend all day and then all night meeting everyone's demands. And I reach a point where I'm like, do you understand that I have had no
JACK: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely.
Ashleigh: personal time, you know, when it's like, I want this and why can't, why do I have to get off a screen now at nine o'clock at night? And it's like, I've had no TV time for seven days. I like TV time. I don't get any. And because you're staying up really, really late, I'm not getting any TV time because I'm a real person too. Like it's, hard for them to realize you have needs as well. They just don't think you have needs.
JACK: Yeah, I think that's well feel like that would be essentially a massive part of it too is almost trying to find that time for yourself
Ashleigh: Yeah. ⁓
JACK: Because there's so much going on, Like, ⁓ you know, you're taking care of everybody. Yeah, I don't think self-care was a thing either for our parents generation. So I don't think they really did things to look after themselves. All they did in their downtime was smoke or drink or go hang
Ashleigh: And like, don't know if our parents, yeah, I don't think self care was a thing either for our parents' generation. So I don't think they really did things to look after themselves. All they did in their downtime was like smoke or drink or go hang out at someone's house and smoke or drink or sit on the phone and smoke and drink. Yeah, they didn't really, well, I know about, I know in Agnes, there were no real, there were no recreational activities for adults. They weren't done for kids up until we were maybe around
JACK: Yeah, that was their escape. for adults. They were not for kids. No.
Ashleigh: 12, 13, like things started to come in. But there were nothing for adults to do other than go to the pub. That was it.
JACK: Yeah, absolutely. That was it. That was, that was all I did. You for example, my husband goes to soccer every Monday night and now he's going to be every Monday and Tuesday night. He goes and plays soccer five times. And when he misses that, he's so much more irritable in the house. he's a very chilled guy. He's a very gentle parent. When you see that shift, the moment he's not getting that time to go.
Ashleigh: So, you know, like for example, my husband goes to soccer every Monday night and now he's going to do every Monday and Tuesday night. He goes and plays soccer fives. And when he misses that, he's so much more irritable in the house. And he's, you know, he's not, he's a very chilled guy. He's a very gentle parent, but you see that shift the moment he's not getting that time to go and blow off steam and look after himself and go play soccer and have that moment of joy. It can switch so much so quickly into just irritability and frustration because
JACK: It can switch so quickly into irritability and frustration because you're just going from worked kids, worked kids, kids. Where's the you in all that? And I think a lot of our parents didn't have a sense of self in the parenting. I think the only way to get it was to neglect their parenting responsibilities and then use that time to unwind from
Ashleigh: because you're just going from worked kids, worked kids, worked kids. Where's the you in all of that? And I think a lot of our parents didn't have a sense of self in the parenting. And I think the only way to get it was to neglect their parenting responsibilities and then use that time to unwind from the stresses of life. Yeah.
JACK: Yeah, to escape, you know, and obviously they had a lot of fun doing it, but they didn't realize what sort of damage it was inputting. Yeah. Yeah.
Ashleigh: Yeah. I think he was a weed smoker that I didn't know. ⁓ And I realize now that his level of irritability at times were probably when he didn't have ⁓ weed, when he was really angry. Yeah. ⁓
JACK: Yeah, gotcha. Yeah. Yeah. That's that's yeah, it actually rings a bell. His dad was the same. My father was the same. You know, he wasn't a massive drinker every day and then. Yeah, but he was more of a weed smoker as well. Yeah. It's amazing what you find out when they think that you're old enough to know.
Ashleigh: Yeah. Yeah, yeah and I didn't even know that. I didn't know that until I was so much older. think I found out at 18 and all. Yeah.
JACK: you know, even though we might have known a lot of things that they didn't expect us to
Ashleigh: we've got these environments like you with your family and ⁓ the instability and the violence that's happening and then you go to someone else's house and you see same things.
JACK: same things. Will you hear the same things from your friends if you're talking about it? so it kind of becomes like a this is what we all just have to go through and it sucks and you're angry and mad that you're having to deal with it but you have no control. No. I remember at points knowing like this is not okay but then also then seeing it somewhere else and being like but this is what dads just are.
Ashleigh: Will you hear the same things from your friends if you're talking about it? And so it kind of becomes like a, this is what we all just have to go through and it sucks and you're angry and you're mad that you're having to deal with it, but you have no control. I remember at points knowing like this is not okay, but then also ⁓ then seeing somewhere else and being like, but this is what dads just are. Dads are mean. Dads are scary.
JACK: dads are mean dads are scary you need to be weary of dads that's just what I thought yeah absolutely I mean for me especially like hanging on to that anger I had no idea what masculine energy was and every time I stepped into a relationship ⁓ scared the shit out of me ⁓ I didn't know how to hold a masculine frame not that ⁓ would be aggressive I mean there was times where ⁓ things that did sent me over the edge and stuff I'm not proud of you know
Ashleigh: You need to be weary of dads. That's just what I thought. Yeah. Yeah.
JACK: ⁓ would lead to that. Though not... being so rock solid in masculine energy me feel unsafe because ⁓ seeing all that stuff when I was younger with dad losing the plot and ⁓ those things to mom ⁓ getting so angry all the time ⁓ scared the shit out of me to even ⁓ up masculine. ⁓ ⁓ ⁓ Right. Like I didn't want to be that aggressive and I to be the complete opposite ⁓ that.
Ashleigh: so rock solid in masculine energy me feel unsafe because I've seen all that stuff when I was younger with dad losing the plot. Doing those things to mum and getting so angry all the time. That scared the shit out of me to even show up masculine. Were you then afraid that you would be that? Yeah. Exactly right. I didn't want to be that aggressive when I to be the complete...
JACK: masculinity is like my husband. ⁓
Ashleigh: Yeah, whereas masculinity is like my husband, very gentle, very masculine. Like I feel that masculinity from him. I feel like he's burly, but so soft at the same time. And that's the goal, right?
JACK: Very gentle, very masculine. I feel that masculinity from him. It's so soft. At the same time. And that's the goal, right? I mean, I'm not a father, but what I hear is to integrate, well, for me anyway, that's the goal is to integrate all parts. So you can be the spaceholder in all environments, right? Because
Ashleigh: Yeah.
JACK: essentially, know, there's the roles reverse and it flows. and you're a team, ⁓ you build it like that. And no one ⁓ way or the other. It's like flows together. ⁓ And that's the same thing with and femininity.
Ashleigh: Yeah, exactly. Yeah,
JACK: idea is to integrate all of that so you can be all of ⁓
Ashleigh: And a healthy man is all of those things. And a man who is only taught to be masculine and is taught to fear any sort of femininity becomes a man who is just stuck in like anger, I guess, because he's so scared to access or show his vulnerability, his emotions. And that creates a really, it's really sad to be honest, because.
JACK: It's really sad to us because you've got so many men who as boys ⁓ did not know ⁓ to cry ⁓ feel safe enough to cry ⁓ maybe they did cry and they were told ⁓ Cry boys don't cry. ⁓ It's enough, got a smack the back of the head. ⁓ We made fun of for crying. All of that is so sad ⁓ they're just... ⁓
Ashleigh: You've got so many men who as boys just did not know how to cry ⁓ feel safe enough to cry or maybe they did cry and they were told Don't cry boys, don't cry. Toughen up, got a smack on the back of the head. We made fun of for crying. All of that is so sad because they're just... ⁓ Boys, girls, they're all just humans and they're all feeling the same range of emotions. And then this one gender was so oppressed in that emotional sense. So badly oppressed when it came to emotions. It's no surprise that we still have a violence against women epidemic happening now. And it's sad because these men are these little boys. Yeah, that's right. They're still those hurt little boys. They're hurt little boys. Yeah, they just haven't been heard.
JACK: Boys, girls, they're all just humans and they're all feeling the same range of emotions. And then this one gender was so oppressed in that emotional sense. So badly oppressed and it came to emotions. It's no surprise that we still have Yeah, for sure. Yeah, that's right. They just still those hurt little boys. Yeah, they just haven't been heard or haven't been held enough for told it's okay. Yeah, culture is what needs to change. Absolutely. can change all the laws that we want. Yeah. But it's culture and unfortunately culture does take generations to change. It does. And I think us millennials are probably like the...
Ashleigh: Yeah, culture is what needs to change because we can change all the laws that we want, but it's culture and unfortunately culture does take generations to change. And I think us millennials are probably like the, for the majority are the first sort of cycle breakers. And the millennials have had a really, I think hard time in their parenting.
JACK: think so too.
Ashleigh: journeys because they're lot of the time they're parenting themselves. We're re-parenting ourselves while we're trying to learn to parent our children and we're also the first lot of parents to go through a time where
JACK: journeys because they're all the time they're parenting themselves yeah we're reparenting ourselves while we're to learn to parent our children and we're also the first lot of parents to go through a time where now we have technology and it like
Ashleigh: Now we have technology and in like social media and all of these other aspects. So you've got almost an excess of information telling you how to be a good parent. And we've almost gone into this era of like trying so hard not to damage our children. That parenting can feel so stressful because you're scared of one wrong moment. Like just destroying your kid. But yeah, cause you so desperately want to do the right thing. And anytime you've made
JACK: So you've got almost an excess of information telling you how to be a good parent. And we've almost gone into this era of trying so hard not to damage our children that parenting can feel so stressful because you're scared of one wrong moment. Like just destroying your kid. Because you don't want them to have the same life that you had growing up. you so desperately want to do the right thing anytime you've made...
Ashleigh: the wrong choice and you've said the wrong thing or you've snapped at them, you think like, ⁓ my God, I've done it. But you know, I want the repair is what's important because we're all people. And even though theoretically we can know what's like good and what's not good in terms of parenting choices, we're still humans and we still have patterns that we haven't sorted out. And you may revert to that for a moment.
JACK: choice and you've said the wrong thing or you've snapped at them you think like ⁓ my god I've done it but you know I want the repair of what's important because we're all people and even though theoretically we can know what's good and what's not good in terms of parenting choices we're still humans and we still have patterns that we haven't consulted out and you may...
Ashleigh: But what's really important is repairing it with your children, which is, think, something that us as kids didn't get. So it's not just that the parents, you know, that your dad yelled at you and said, you're a fucking stupid idiot. It's that later, and I've never taught my kids they're fucking stupid idiots, just why I, but it's just that later they haven't come back and said.
JACK: Yeah, we definitely didn't get that. couldn't imagine you doing that.
Ashleigh: I shouldn't have said that. That's the wrong thing for me to say. I lost control of my emotions. I'm not dealing well with them right now, but I shouldn't have said that to you and I'm really sorry. Yeah.
JACK: That's so much learning in that for them and that's like letting them know that it's actually okay to express as well. states and how in the way that you express yeah because it's human yeah ⁓
Ashleigh: and you're going to make mistakes in the way that you express because it's human. And that for you is a cue, you're teaching kids that that is a cue that you're not coping very well right now. Like you probably need to go and find a way to regulate because right now you're not regulated because this has been your go-to reaction at this point in time. It's probably built up without you even realizing it. And that happens to me as an adult and we expect children to be able to regulate
JACK: Yeah, absolutely. Yep ⁓
Ashleigh: that we can't even regulate and I think that happened to us as kids where our parents like if you were upset about something you got in trouble for being upset but yet when our parents were upset about something they smashed shit so so it was like big juxtaposition you know just this walking contradiction of being like don't you fucking do that
JACK: Yeah, yeah, where's the lesson there, right? Yeah Yeah
Ashleigh: because you're upset and you're mad and maybe you went hmmm and stomped your foot like unacceptable. can't, you're not allowed to have emotions. You're not allowed to have reactions. But when something didn't go their way, everyone look out. ⁓ knew about it. ⁓ so it's just telling to do one thing whilst you can't even regulate. ⁓ And know, we've to teach kids by example and we didn't have those examples. ⁓
JACK: kids to do one thing whilst you can't even regulate. And you know we've got to teach kids by example and we didn't have those examples. No ⁓ I mean where's the support ⁓ parents, the millennial parents like you say, where's the support because ⁓ parents... ⁓
Ashleigh: Yeah.
JACK: like your parents now like you know they're still dealing with what they haven't dealt with. ⁓ you're actually essentially learning this without any support ⁓ your parents as well. ⁓
Ashleigh: still dealing with what they haven't dealt with. you're actually essentially... Yeah. Yeah, no there's never been any any support there. I think I've always been parenting my mum from I feel like from the moment Like I said to you earlier, so my mom has developmental intellectual disabilities. And I think from the moment you reach an age where your intellect surpasses hers, she doesn't quite know how to relate to you anymore. So as a little tiny kid, super nurturing, loving, will cuddle you, it's very gentle. Once you probably understand the world better than her and know more than her, it's like she now feels like the child.
JACK: Yeah, gotcha. And I've seen that switch, obviously as a kid I didn't know that was happening, but I've seen that dynamic happen between my eldest son and her.
Ashleigh: and she now thinks that you're her authority. And I've seen that switch, obviously as a kid I didn't know that was happening, but I've seen that dynamic happen between my eldest son and her.
JACK: and it was almost like she then started tending to him like he was her authority. And my mum has always done that so like my dad was her authority she did not have a say in anything. So she didn't have access to a bank card, she didn't know how to use a card, she didn't know how to teach her.
Ashleigh: having And it was almost like she then started tending to him like he was her authority. And my mum has always done that. So like my dad was her authority. She did not have a say in anything. ⁓ So she didn't have access to a bank card. She didn't know how to use a bank card. had to teach her how to use a bank card and an ATM. Dad managed all the money and she got no say in how it was spent. So dad could make whatever financial choices he wanted and she was not included in that whatsoever. ⁓
JACK: ⁓
Ashleigh: Yes, and then it wasn't just finances though. She wasn't allowed to buy any clothes that she wanted. She just had to wear whatever shitty old shit someone gave to her. She wasn't allowed to buy clothes. She wasn't allowed to buy shoes. She was walked around town barefoot. She didn't have any shoes. give the woman some shoes. Wasn't allowed to wear makeup. Wasn't allowed to get her hair done. Like none of that stuff, unless he said so. ⁓
JACK: Yeah ⁓
Ashleigh: Yeah. It's really odd because I didn't, it's not that I even had any examples. It was just like an intuitive understanding that like that's not right. Cause like, you know, you learn your basic rights from wrongs and then you go to school and you learn your basic rights from wrongs. And then when you see them in your own household, it's like, get in trouble for like pointing out that something's wrong. Yeah.
JACK: Yeah. It's really odd because I didn't, it's not that I even had any examples. It was just like an intuitive understanding that like that's not right. Yep. Cause like, you know, you learn your basic rights from wrongs and then you go to school and you learn your basic rights from wrongs. And then when you see them in your own household, it's like you get in trouble for like pointing out that something's Yeah. But there was a lot of that.
Ashleigh: But there was a lot of that.
JACK: Yeah, in terms of like where it sort of left us out to like what I'm hearing you talk about too, there's not much of you being heard. you know, so you would have felt like you didn't really have a voice as well, like your needs didn't matter. And then also your mum not being capable of understanding that once you got past a certain age, like there was no real nurture for you.
Ashleigh: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that was the hard part about mum is that she means so well none of it was her fault. She was a victim of some really awful violets growing up.
JACK: She was a victim.
Ashleigh: And she went from one violence to the next violence to the next violence. By the time she met my dad, it was like, ⁓ this is great. He doesn't beat me. Like her bar was so low. He doesn't stab me. Like she has been through all sorts of awful horrific things. So my dad to her was that was great. You know, he doesn't he just yells at me and just breaks things and controls everything. But he doesn't beat me. So it's good. this, you know, it's so low. But yeah, she just didn't have the
JACK: Her bar was so low, it doesn't stab me. She's been through all sorts of horrific things. So my dad to her, that was great. He just yells at me and just breaks things and controls everything. But he doesn't beat me, so it's good. it doesn't hurt so low, but she just didn't have the capacity to do anything about it. And it's definitely the not having a voice. I remember feeling...
Ashleigh: capacity to do anything about it and it's definitely the not having a voice. I remember feeling rage as a kid.
JACK: ⁓ yeah, I could imagine.
Ashleigh: for just being like, I've got no control over this situation and I want all these things for myself, but I have no say whatsoever. I remember saying this thing as a kid and I remember like sitting around the back of the house and I don't know, playing with some tools or something that I shouldn't have had and saying, when I'm older, I'm going to take drugs. Like in my mind, I remember doing that all the time.
JACK: I remember saying this thing as a kid and I remember sitting around Yeah, that's interesting.
Ashleigh: To me it was like that's what's gonna hurt my parents if I grow up and I take drugs. ⁓ Actually I remember what I was doing. had these wires I don't even know where they came from or if they were attached to the house but I was sparking them. ⁓ We accessed... ⁓
JACK: Mmm. Well, it could have been 240, you know, you never know. 240 volt. Like that's like what powers a house.
Ashleigh: Oh yeah. Oh, well that house wasn't even a house. It was more like a shack. An asbestos shack held together by, I don't know, ratchet. It was so bad. Where did you, you guys lived out in out of town? Were you guys creepy drive? Murphy road. Murphy road. All the roughens lived out on Murphy road. Yeah.
JACK: Shack. Right. And asbestos shack. Gotcha. Held together by, I don't know, ratchet. Yeah. Whatever we had back then. Yeah. Where did you, you guys lived out in, of town. Were you guys on Murphy Drive? No, Murphy Road. Murphy Road. Yeah. Captain Creek. All the racers lived out on Murphy Road. We did. And there was another little community out there in itself. Yeah. So there was a lot of the families too. was a cooler environment but everyone around was ⁓ the same you know like ⁓ remember some of my friends they ⁓ have a similar setup with just like a caravan and a couple of poles and like a humpy setup. Yeah, heaps people had that. ⁓ of had those setups. Heaps of people just had sheds.
Ashleigh: Yep, ⁓ Yeah, heaps of people had that. Heaps of people had those setups. Heaps of people just had sheds. So I guess as a kid, you were like, oh, this house is pretty shit. But you know, they live in a shed. Like it's kind of normal. It was a big adventure really. Yeah.
JACK: So I guess as a kid you were like, oh this house is pretty shit. But you know, they live in a shed, like it's kind of normal. Yeah. We, it was a big adventure really. You never, like in terms of like wildlife, we didn't know if a snake was going to crawl through or anything like the amount of times. yeah. We, yeah, we had them too. it was actually sort of like a two bedroom cottage. Okay.
Ashleigh: We had brown snakes inside our house. Yeah, because it was actually sort of like a two bedroom cottage with all six of us in there. ⁓ And. ⁓
JACK: Wow. and the back door had a gap like this big. It did actually close, there was a big gap across the bottom. So yeah, snakes would just come in and I remember going...
Ashleigh: the back door had a gap like this big. Like it didn't actually close. It was a big gap across the bottom. So yeah, like snakes would just come in. And I remember going to the bathroom at nighttime and looking down and there was a brown snake just curled up beside the toilet. Yeah. And that used to happen like, yeah, like maybe not regularly, but it definitely happened a fair few times. ⁓
JACK: Oh my god, jeez. Regularly. Yeah, like maybe not regularly, but it definitely happened a fair few times. Yeah, hard times, hey. um, now as an adult, can't stand small spaces and I can't stand clutter because there was so much of that. My dad just hoarded shit.
Ashleigh: I hated it. now as an adult, I can't stand small spaces and I can't stand clutter because there was so much of that. And my dad just hoarded shit. And then inside the house, so much shit. ⁓ cause it was so small. Like where do put everything? And then the dining table ⁓ was always covered in like mountains of paper
JACK: And then inside the house, so much shit. cause it was so small. Like where do you put everything? And the dining table was always covered in like, malged.
Ashleigh: pages. We had like... milk crates to put the videos in, mean like videos, VCR like videos. We had a milk crate is where we put the videos. Like it was just a shithole. And I remember as a kid just being like, I fucking hate it here.
JACK: is where we put the videos. Like was just a shithole. And I remember as a kid just being like, I hate it here. We actually had it pretty good. My parents ended up shipping a house. Like we grew up in train carriages and that was kind of a thing. Really? Yeah. That's so cool. Yeah, they moved the train carriages onto the property from Brizzy or wherever they were coming from. that was our... they did them up?
Ashleigh: Really? That's so cool! Yeah. And like did them up and like put them together and stuff.
JACK: together and stuff? Yeah they were just sort of like separated but the train carriages were apart but they all you know they were all done up inside like rooms and things like that were beds and and everything it was just a really cheap alternative that was the first thing that was on the block.
Ashleigh: Yeah. Yeah.
JACK: and then they moved a house from Brisbane down. So we had a home and there was a shed eventually. There was a lot of, not a lot of money around was the other thing, know, like which was quite challenging at times. Dad was a concrete tank builder, water tanks and...
Ashleigh: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. was tight for a lot of families. What did your parents do?
JACK: Mum never really had a trade though, she did different jobs through me growing up. so she was gardening, now she's gone, know, remember a pot and black boys or cleaning a lot.
Ashleigh: Yeah, picking up different jobs around town and things like that.
JACK: She would have been doing a there. ⁓ So it more of a stay at home mum, so to ⁓ Yeah. ⁓
Ashleigh: Yeah. So it more of a stay at home, so to speak. So with mine. Also a stay at home dad. He didn't have a job. He was just on pension and like, ⁓
JACK: Yeah, like, fuck hell, hell, right? You think about it, today's standards, like, it's hard to survive on an apartment. Yeah, that's incredible, to be honest. Yeah. I know. I know.
Ashleigh: Yeah. Do you know what's wild to me? That my parents could buy a property off of Centrelink. Yeah, that's incredible. And I like, my husband's on a really good income. We can buy shit. Yeah. Yeah. without just changing the subject. So like I mentioned before, I remember seeing you as a boy who was very angry. And then as a teenager, very angry. And I have like very specific memories of you. like, I also wanted to say, I remember though watching you run in primary school and you were so fast. You were such a good runner. And I felt like you could just see all that like anger.
JACK: Yeah. I also wanted to say, I remember though watching you run in primary school and you were so fast. You were such a good runner and I felt like you could just see all that anger just coming out in you when you ran. I remember watching you with that undercut you ⁓
Ashleigh: just coming out in you when you ran. I remember watching you with that undercut that you had. Yeah
JACK: ⁓
Ashleigh: And then this one is a very vivid memory. And I can cut this out if you want. This would have been when you were probably like 17, 18. And we were down at. Everyone was down at the park at night. And the gladi boys were in town. Is it Gladstone Boys? I don't know what the rivalry there was with like Agnes Boys being like the gladi boys are in town. Like some territory wars. And I had just probably finished working at the backpacker at Hostile Cool Bananas. I used to work nights there. I see you, we're at the hill right before shit creek, from shit creek. ⁓ The bridge, I see you come running across the bridge and you ⁓ up in the air like a kangaroo and with both your legs, one, kicked the guy in the chest with both your legs like a kung fu. ⁓
JACK: see you, we're at the hill right before shit creek. The bridge, I see you running across the bridge and you jumped up in the air like a kangaroo and with both your legs, not one, kicked the guy in the chair. With both your legs. Like a kung fu. Jackie Chan. With both your legs and he just went flying to the ground.
Ashleigh: Cha! With both your legs and he just went flying to the ground and you remember that? Yeah.
JACK: I remember that. You remember that? Yeah I do. That was a big fight. I think the younger boys were causing that one and then us older boys at the time got called in. And stepped in to protect the younger grommets. That's it and then it turned, well we also back then we seen it as an opportunity too. So do it have a fight? Yeah, like sweet something to do you know like we were drinking as well. Yeah, it's a what?
Ashleigh: stepped in to protect the younger grommets. To have a fight, get out a bit of anger. Yeah it's what everyone did in town. There's nothing else to do. We weren't joining soccer clubs and going to the movies and joining bowling groups. know nothing to do, go to the park and drink.
JACK: That's right yeah. There's nothing else to do. We weren't joining supper clubs and going to the movies. No. We joining Halloween groups. No. Nothing to do, it was all a drink. No, was the beach, surf and drinking. Yep. And maybe fishing. Exactly. You know, that was it. And I don't remember where the f***.
Ashleigh: Exactly. And I don't remember where the fight went after that. It sort of dissipated out.
JACK: It sort of dissipated out after a little bit but I remember learning a few lessons that night too. Yeah I got couple good hits after that big fly kick as well. like ⁓ I'm
Ashleigh: Did you get paid up pretty bad? Yeah. Yeah.
JACK: ⁓
Ashleigh: think it would feel really weird to go back there and not know anyone and not have anyone know you. ⁓
JACK: You definitely, you run into people you knew. think the weirdest experience for me was going back was seeing how taken back to certain situations and like going to visit the property that I grew up on you know like how that was gonna land in my body and how that was gonna still if that was still gonna spark any triggers or any memories or how I'd feel about that.
Ashleigh: You reckon? Yeah. Yeah. Any feelings? Yeah. Yeah. When you went back to it.
JACK: No, no, because I'd done a lot of work surrounding it. It was more like, wow, that really did happen. You know, it was that sort of vibe instead of feeling scared or anything like that. But even walking around town, like there'd be memories that'd pop up of things that you did with your mates and with crew and whatever, like walking past the point, doing those tracks that we used to do to go jumping off the rocks and things like that.
Ashleigh: Yep. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And those. Yeah. Yeah. Those things are cool. Those parts are so cool. Got all the point and the blow hole. Yeah. Doing all of those things. God. I think about like me, sorry, in town, spending the whole day in town with Caitlin Canavan. We're like 11 years old. Just.
JACK: Yeah, that was a lot of fun. Yeah, just get lost in the bush. Yeah, fully. Yeah.
Ashleigh: off to our own devices in town for the whole day. No phones, just doing our own thing. And I'm like, ⁓
JACK: That's it we'd all just you know made it the server wherever the payphone was and you get like two bucks of chips or three bucks of chips Yeah, that it that was the thing and then they were massive to you get so many yeah feed five of us Reverse charge ⁓ yeah Because you didn't want to send the bill to your parents, but you'd say it real quick you're like
Ashleigh: $2 worth of chips at the server with cheese and gravy. was, it was huge. And then you know how you do like the reverse call to home and you just be like, pick me up. Yeah. Or everyone would just hang out at the pay phones at the front of mangoes. Was it called mangoes? For a while it's called mangoes down at the beach. And everyone would just be like calling kids help line.
JACK: And that always knows the server
Ashleigh: Did you guys do that? It's just something we did. What do want to do? Call kids helpline? Sure. And then just make up some ridiculous story. And then half the time I feel like people were telling legitimate stories, but being like, yeah, this is just made up. ⁓ So my dad did this. you're like, know.
JACK: those poor people on the other saving end like they would have seen the call coming from that area just going ⁓ these guys again I don't know if I believe them or what like yeah
Ashleigh: Yeah, these Agnes kids again. Bloody hell, and I... Yeah. God.
JACK: Hey, but we ⁓ we spent a bit of time together when we were dancing. You're kidding me. That was the most favorite time.
Ashleigh: spent a bit of time together when we dancing. Yeah I forgot about that whole chapter. You were kidding me. It was my favourite time. was your most favourite time. I forgot, I do remember it now but like before you said it I was just like wow I forgot about that actually because you were teaching break dancing. I was. I actually can't recall that many like memories from there I'm like did I talk to you? Yeah we were just like, I mean like we didn't talk much. Was I shy? You were shy yeah. Yeah.
JACK: is. Yeah, we spoke. I mean like we didn't talk much. You were shy. Yeah, you're quite shy and You know, I was, I felt a little bit out of place too, cause I was teaching a lot of younger kids. And I think I only did maybe seven sessions like Faye brung me on, think it was 50 bucks or something she gave me for the class or something. It was just helping me out though. Um, I remember after that, we, we trained or we planned an event at the festival, 1770 festival. Yeah. You did really well. Like you were always doing really.
Ashleigh: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ yeah. Yep. ⁓ thank you. Yeah. ⁓
JACK: well you're incredible and we could see I could say from a young age and everybody could say you're going places with that yeah well essentially would have been like me running right it was your outlet
Ashleigh: Yeah, so I don't even know where any of that came from. of my parents were like... Well, essentially it would have been like me running around. Exactly, I think... Yeah. And also being like farm kids and like property kids.
JACK: Yes.
Ashleigh: you are just very active and coordinated and you know strong and then I don't know I always got music I always understood music from a really young age and yeah it just became my outlet I've told you this story before I sent it to you but it wasn't my parents that put me into dancing it was actually the school librarian Mrs Baker
JACK: Absolutely. told you this story before, I've sent it to you, but it wasn't Yeah, well, yep
Ashleigh: so she had seen me dancing and spoke to my dad and was like, you should put her into the dance classes because
JACK: she had seen me dancing and spoke to my dad and was like, should put her into the dance classes because
Ashleigh: And he was like, no, I'm not doing that. Not paying for it. It was $2 a class. Yeah, I'm not paying for it and I'm not picking her up.
JACK: And he was like, no I'm not doing that, I'm not paying for it, it was too long as it falls. There's nothing, hey, like seriously. I'm paying for it and I'm not picking her up. I'm not driving into town.
Ashleigh: not driving into town. We lived five minutes away. It was nine K's. ⁓ We were not that far out. ⁓ ⁓ Not far at all. ⁓ So he wouldn't me up. So she said, that's fine. I'll pay for it and I will wait at and I will drive her home
JACK: it's literally five minutes driving
Ashleigh: he was okay then so she paid for it she bought my costume and she drove me home every Wednesday it was very nice I remember being so like uncomfortable and shy like sitting in the teacher's car just so awkward but
JACK: So she paid for it. She bought my costume and she drove him home every Wednesday. It was very nice. I remember being so uncomfortable and shy, like sitting in the teacher's car. just so awkward. ⁓
Ashleigh: And so that's when ⁓ I had to stay with other families all the time. And so as a kid,
JACK: Yeah. And so as a kid, it doesn't feel great, because while I was like super happy to be able to go to dancing, I knew...
Ashleigh: it doesn't feel great, obviously, because while I was like super happy to be able to go to dancing. I knew I felt like a burden on other families and it felt really uncomfortable and out of place to be going to their houses and then they wash my uniform and then they give me dinner and then they pack me a lunch tomorrow and they take me to school like it just felt like I was this little charity case and heaps of shame and so I yeah I loved it the chance to go but I also had heaps of shame around that's the way that I had to do it ⁓
JACK: It just felt like I was in this little charity case. There would have been a lot of shame, right? Heaps of shame. And so, yeah, I loved the chance to... made you feel like you were poor ⁓ as Yeah, because I was poor. Yeah. ⁓ yeah, it just sucked I so, especially growing up into my...
Ashleigh: Yeah, because I was poor yeah, it just sucked I think. so especially growing up into my adult life, I've always wanted to do everything I can to not appear poor because I had so much shame around it. ⁓ And yeah, so of hopped from one family and then I get passed onto the next family. Like, ⁓ we'll take her this term. ⁓
JACK: Yep. from one family and I get passed on to the next family. Like, oh we'll take her this term. It was very much the same for us too. Like a lot of times, you know, we'd be going over play dates with somebody or whatever. Like my sister would have her friends and I'd have my friends and get a phone call from mama, can you watch Jack tonight? Like all of sudden, it's like she'd be out doing her thing or.
Ashleigh: Yeah.
JACK: And then very similar. You'd end up there for like days, right? You'd end up there for a few days. They'd feed us, they'd give us lunch, send us to school. Yeah. It was, it was a bit,
Ashleigh: You'd end up there for like days right? Did you end up there for days? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. ⁓
JACK: you essentially lose your voice a little bit too because you're walking around because you know you're out of place and you want to help out and it's just developing good morals at the same time though you feel completely out of space like you're not taking up space you know like it's not your environment ⁓ and ⁓ you understand that mum should picking up
Ashleigh: Yeah. like you understand that ⁓ maybe mum should be picking up by now. ⁓
JACK: Yeah, and there's that side of it too, like what does that look like for mum and part of that family and you you carry a lot of shame for that too.
Ashleigh: Yeah absolutely. Yeah there's a lot to heal from that's for sure. I feel like I didn't even didn't even scrape the surface with some of the stuff but you know farm life was um I don't like farms now.
JACK: ⁓ so much healing, so beautiful. Absolutely.
Ashleigh: I mean, like, go into someone's property and they've got like cute little couple of cows or something. That's fine. But ask me to do farm work. Fuck off. I'm out. I'm not doing that.
JACK: Yeah. Good. We had to do so much homework on that farm. ⁓ It was like we couldn't have ⁓ We couldn't relax. ⁓ And I today find it hard to just like sit back and relax.
Ashleigh: Yeah, because we had to do so much farm work on that farm. ⁓ it was like we couldn't have You couldn't relax. And I still today find it really hard to just like sit back and relax. ⁓ chill. ⁓ Yeah.
JACK: That's a natural ⁓ definitely, for what went It was very afraid, like, you know, like you were saying before about being afraid, like, dad's home, walk on eggshells? Yeah. We all had, a... soon as ⁓ we called it out, dad's coming! ⁓ Like, it was a, dad's coming home! Yeah. Everyone, be quiet. ⁓ Be really quiet. ⁓ And so, yeah, if you were yourself, ⁓ if were laughing...
Ashleigh: because he's very afraid like, know, like you were saying before about like being afraid, like dad's home walk on eggshells. We all had like a, as soon as we called it out, dad's coming. Like it was like a dad's coming home. Everyone sit, be quiet, really quiet. And so yeah, if you were enjoying yourself, if you were laughing or in the room making noise, you got screamed at. So
JACK: Yeah Yeah
Ashleigh: You were just like, Oh, I need to either be doing something productive or I need to be very quiet scene, but not heard. We didn't have electricity either till we were like, I think I was 10 or 11. We got power, but we were just off the generator, which a lot of families were a lot of families had generators. But yeah, so like you only had access to like the TV for certain periods of time.
JACK: Yeah ⁓
Ashleigh: but yeah you'd sort of just get called like a lazy fucking piece of shit for playing or like we were we had to do a lot of really like dangerous sort of working things so you know how we were building that house he used to make us, and I, not my sisters it was like my sisters were like allocated domestic labor and Joy and I were allocated hard labor and so we had to
JACK: And so we are you two. Maybe you guys were singled out. Yeah. Like we were like fit and strong and active ones. You can help me. Okay. And so we would have to help him with building. I think like the amount of responsibility we were given was very crazy. And then if you got it wrong, you were
Ashleigh: Yeah, like, well, I think it's because we were like fit and strong and active kids. So he was like, well, you can help me. And so we would have to help him with building. And I think like the amount of responsibility we were given was very crazy. And then if you got it wrong, you were like, screamed at for being so fucking stupid. But you're like, I don't know how to build a house. I'm 10, you know. But like, as an example, when the roofing was to go on, he had my brother and I No shoes, no helmet, no harness. My brother's wearing undies, as you do on the property, just wear a pair of undies. I'm wearing shorts and a singlet. Our job was to stand up there and he would pass us a big sheet of corrugated iron while on a ladder and then my brother and I had to balance.
JACK: I'm singlet. Our job was to stand up there and he would pass us a big sheet of corrugated iron.
Ashleigh: to lay it down. ⁓ then he ⁓ Could have ⁓ One wrong and like we would have fallen and fell that distance. ⁓ you didn't do you were in big, big trouble.
JACK: Anything bad could have happened there. Anything bad could have happened there. Could have died. Oh yeah. wrong step. we would have fallen and fell that distance. But if you didn't do it you'd be grounded or something. If didn't do it you were in big trouble. There was no saying no. didn't dare think that. As an adult I still really struggle to say no to anything and anyone because I've never practised.
Ashleigh: Like you didn't, there was no saying no. You didn't dare think that. So as an adult, I still really struggled to say no to anything and anyone because I've never practiced that as a kid. It was just like, if someone asks something of you, then you do it. didn't, it took me a really long time to realize, ⁓ I can actually say no to something. So we just did that kind of stuff. And there were others like back burning. We used to do that. We did the back burning.
JACK: If someone asks something of you, then you do it. It took me a really long time to realize, ⁓ I can actually say no to something. So we just did that kind of stuff. And there were others like back burning. We used to do that. We used to put back burning. It's crazy, right? I have this vivid memory.
Ashleigh: It's crazy right? I have this vivid memory and this is wild. We were back burning one of the paddocks and my sister was driving the tractor and then on the trailer was this big big water tank thing
JACK: back burning one of ⁓ the paddocks and my sister was driving the tractor and then on the trailer was this big big water tank thing ⁓ and dad's down one end like you can't see each other anymore he's right down there lighting fire ⁓ in bushland ⁓
Ashleigh: And my dad's down one end, like you can't see each other anymore. He's way down there lighting fire in this bushland. And it's my job to spray water on the edge of the like the fires that doesn't cross over across the track onto the right? It's bushland, like ⁓ very bushland. It could just go over so easily. My brother's also with us. He was probably about four. I was seven. ⁓
JACK: And it's my job to spray water on the edge of the lake, the fires that doesn't cross over. That could have taken off at any moment. Onto the right? ⁓ It's like ⁓ very bushland. ⁓ It just go over so easily. ⁓ My also with us. ⁓ He probably about four. ⁓ I seven. ⁓
Ashleigh: Crystal is nine, Dan 11. So, Dan's responsible for driving. I don't know what Crystal's doing. I'm spraying and Jai falls, Jai was just along for the ride. And this is like, the bush is on fire. And we're just chugging along on this fucking tractor and trailer.
JACK: Crystal is 9, Dan 11. Dan's responsible for driving. I don't know what Crystal's doing. I'm spraying. And Jai falls. Jai was just along for the ride. And this is like, the bush is on fire. And we're just chugging along on this fucking tractor and trailer. I know we laugh about it, but that, we had bushfires that many times in that, in that place. It's so dangerous. It used to go up. It can go out of control so quickly. One gust of wind in one direction.
Ashleigh: Yeah it's so dangerous and it can go out of control so quickly one gust of wind in one direction I'm like you just sent your kids off into a burning paddock ⁓ like did you want us to die?
JACK: You just sent the kids off into a burning headache. Yeah, exactly. Like, did you want us to go? No, that's the sort of responsibilities that we have when we were younger. big responsibilities. ⁓ it's crazy. And that was the normal for us. Yeah, well, I didn't know those other kids weren't doing that. No.
Ashleigh: very big responsibilities. Yeah, well I didn't realize all the kids weren't doing that. I thought everyone was doing that. My brother fell off the tractor and because it's so loud, because it was a big water pump and the tractor and the fire, he's like chasing after the tractor and he's getting like lost in the smoke, see you guys. And we're like screaming like, Dan, stop, stop driving. And we were just expected to do that kind of things all the time.
JACK: because it's so loud, because it's a big water pump and the tractor... You're ⁓ kidding me. There's not much responsibility in ⁓ ⁓ tasks up for your ⁓ is there, know, like where's the thought pattern there? ⁓ the thought patterns there, you know, for even ⁓ your kids to go and do that? ⁓
Ashleigh: Sorry, what was that? ⁓ yeah, and that's I think what I, as a parent, I have a really hard time understanding because I would never put my kids in a situation that was dangerous for them. And then I look back at our childhood and I'm like, we were put in danger a lot, not just like in the emotional unsafety of things, but actual physical unsafety and just being like, I don't know what you, why were you getting us to do that? We were little children.
JACK: because I would never put my kids in a situation that was dangerous for them. ⁓ Well, I think a lot of it to come down to not being at a higher people as well and you have kids back then you have kids to help you work. It's kind of like old school generational stuff that's like happened with work in the land and everything.
Ashleigh: That's true. help you work. That's true and there was no money. Yeah.
JACK: Though not being around to monitor what's actually going on through that fire, that's a completely different story. And you're just leaving it up to you guys.
Ashleigh: Yeah, I don't think this other one, because this one is just like crazy, this little story. is another fire story. I love a good story and then you can tell me some stories if you want to. ⁓ ⁓ just like why would you do this? ⁓ So building that house that like forever.
JACK: Sure, I'll try and think of something. So building that house that took forever. And there were times where Dad didn't work.
Ashleigh: And there were times where dad didn't work on the house for like maybe a year because there was no money to buy more stuff to keep working on it. And so the main framing had been put down the brick, brick, and then like the frame of the house and then the floor, not the actual floor, but just the beams were there and all this grass, dead grass had like grown up, like through the inside of that house because nothing had been done to it.
JACK: I think he sprayed it with weed killer to make everything die but then instead of the labour of ripping everything out he just
Ashleigh: I think he sprayed it with like weed killer to like make everything die. But then instead of like the labor of ripping everything out, he just wanted to set it on fire. So this was our task. Ready for the task.
JACK: The whole house. This was our task. ⁓ my god. Ready for the task. We're gonna light all this grass, this dead grass inside the house under this full door.
Ashleigh: We're gonna light all this grass, this dead grass inside the house under these floorboards, not boards, but beams. So there's nothing to stand on by the beams. They're about a meter apart. You got to balance on them. We're gonna light it on fire, but we can't let it get out of control because it'll burn the wood. So you have to spray it with water if it gets too big. So. Yeah, right.
JACK: That is crazy, that's literally starting a house fire and then trapped inside. and putting the kids inside. exactly. That's why I'm like, did you want us to die? Yeah. I don't know. Sometimes I have questions. I don't know why.
Ashleigh: and putting your kids inside it. That's why I'm like, did you want us to die? I don't know. Sometimes I have questions. I don't know why he thought that was okay, but he did. And so it's on fire and I'm like, kind of like closer to it. And he starts screaming at me like, get that, get that bit out.
JACK: start screaming at me like get that get that bit out and I was like okay and he's then sprayed it
Ashleigh: and I was like okay and he then sprayed it and it's gone into like a big bellow of smoke like all around me so I now can't see where the beam is to like take the next step and I'm like choking on the smoke. ⁓ go to take a step I miss the beam and so I fall through ⁓
JACK: and it's gone into like a big bellow of smoke like all around me. So I now can't see where the beam is to like take the next step. I'm like, I'm joking on the smoke. I go to take a step, I miss the beam. And so I fall through. So now you're in the fire. So now I'm down there in the fire. Thankfully there was no actual fire under.
Ashleigh: So now I'm down there in the fire. Thankfully there was no actual fire underneath me. That grass had already been burnt and it was just like charcoal-y black soot and stuff. Warm but not like burning me. But there was one of those ⁓ brick pillars.
JACK: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah,
Ashleigh: there and it had that metal skirting around the top of it and I grazed my back all down the metal skirting so my back was all bloodied up and obviously like I fall down I like climb my way back out and instead of being like are you okay I just get the scream of a lifetime you fucking idiot you piece of shit you dumb fuck
JACK: You fucking idiot, you useless shit, you dumb fuck. You're fucking useless. Get down to the other fucking house. You know, like I'm actually doing something dangerous. made a mistake and now I'm hurt. And now I'm hurt and I don't get any kind of comfort. I just get told I'm so fucking stupid. So I walk back to the house and I'm covered in like black soot, my back is bleeding and my mum is like, oh...
Ashleigh: You're fucking useless. Get down to the other fucking house. I was. ⁓ and now I'm hurt and I don't get any kind of comfort. I just get told I'm so fucking stupid. So then I walk back to the house and I am covered in like black soot, my back is bleeding and my mom is like, ⁓ my God, what happened? And I was just like, I fell into the fire. It's just like the normal one. It's just like no one ever came and said, I'm sorry. It was just like, move on.
JACK: It's a lot of anger that your dad carried.
Ashleigh: so much anger and like Jai and I would talked about this stuff I'm like ⁓ he he did used to threaten us right with the electric cattle prod cattle prod and he didn't ever use it on us but he used to threaten us with it and say like you guys fuck off like I will give you the cattle prod ⁓ or I'll belt you with piece of poly pipe ⁓
JACK: He did use to threaten us right with the electric cattle prod. Oh yeah, oh the crap, the cattle prod. Cattle prod. Oh my god. And he didn't ever use it almost, but he used to threaten us with it. say like, if you guys fuck off, I will give you the cattle prod. Or I'll belt you with a piece of poly pipe. And like same with rounding up cows.
Ashleigh: And like same with like rounding up cows. It was the same thing. Like you'd have this running at you. And if you like did not manage to steer him in the right direction, it was like ⁓ you. ⁓
JACK: That in itself like been in that vicinity of the bull being at such a young age Yeah, we used to round them up on the 200 acres by foot. dad wouldn't buy horses, buy quad bikes, wouldn't buy anything like that. So we used round them up on foot. And yeah, we would try and get them in for spraying. And it was like once a month or something. You know, that week, we knew that we were spraying on the weekend. And we would dread it. know, like it would all be like, oh
Ashleigh: Yeah, yeah, we used to round them up on the 200 acres like by foot, because dad wouldn't buy horses wouldn't buy quad bikes wouldn't buy anything like that. So we had to round them up on foot. And yeah, we just try and get them in for spraying and it was like once a month or something. And you know, that week, we knew that we were spraying on the weekend. And we would dread it, know, like we'd all be like, ⁓ this weekend. Like, because you knew it was going to end bad. Like you knew what was coming. You knew you were going to get screamed at. You know, it wasn't going to go well. And then you'd watch the like violence happen against the animals too, when he'd be really frustrated.
JACK: Because you knew it was going to end bad. Something was going to happen. You knew you were going to get screamed at. You knew it wasn't going to go well. And then you'd watch the violence happen against the animals too. So imagine what that would do. Well, what you carried on through that into your adolescence too, like essentially making a mistake now is like, ⁓ no, I can't make a mistake. Perfectionism. Yeah. I feel like that's why I didn't really fully pursue my dance career like wholeheartedly. Cause you didn't feel like you're perfect. And I felt like I wasn't perfect for an audition. didn't go. Yeah. And you weren't good enough. ⁓
Ashleigh: ⁓ yeah. The perfectionism has been like the biggest like thief of joy you can imagine. And I feel like that's why I didn't really fully pursue my dance career like wholeheartedly. and I felt like I wasn't perfect for an audition. I didn't go. ⁓ I wasn't good Yeah, if I wasn't 1000 % like almost like if I didn't know the part was going to be mine, then I wouldn't go because I just didn't want to handle any. ⁓
JACK: Yeah ⁓
Ashleigh: feeling any yeah fear of just making a mistake not being not being perfect and obviously when you go to an audition you get told that like you're not right for the part ⁓ i'm not perfect and so i wanted to avoid that which also of avoiding potential success as well ⁓ so they were all these missed opportunities i was even offered a job at one i didn't even have to go for it i was just offered it ⁓ through someone in the industry
JACK: feeling any loss and in trouble and Absolutely. ⁓
Ashleigh: She offered me to choreograph and dance in the shows on the Norwegian cruise lines if I wanted it. And we were going to, it would go around the Mediterranean. Yeah. And I didn't take it. purely I was terrified. I was like, no, I'll make a mistake. Like what if the show I make isn't good?
JACK: She offered me to choreograph and dance in the shows on the Norwegian cruise lines if I wanted it. Wow. It was around the Mediterranean. That would have been amazing. Yeah, and I didn't take it. purely I was terrified, I was like no. Yep. ⁓
Ashleigh: And so just didn't do it. So yeah, I think that held me back a lot. And then also because a lot of all of that trauma came out through like eating disorders, I just wasn't well enough, I don't think to do a lot of that stuff. Like I didn't have the mental capacity. So I just didn't do it. Yeah. Yeah. Love to go back in time and like, you know, but it is what it is.
JACK: Yeah, and now having the awareness that you do as well, you understand all these patterns and where they came from. For sure. ⁓ It is what it is. What I like to mention to a lot of the times to people that I work with I do a modality called perceptual positionings where you put yourself in other people's shoes subconsciously. It's very powerful though.
Ashleigh: Yep.
JACK: One of the biggest things I do like to mention to people is there's a lot of silver linings like through that perfectionism also created so much drive. Yeah. Like you were so driven. Like you were, you were going there, you know, so that, that alone, like it gave you so much dedication because you didn't want to fail. you'd work so hard. ⁓
Ashleigh: Yeah, which I had like as a kid. ⁓ Yeah. Yeah. And that's why I was good at dancing because I wanted so badly to perfect everything that I was doing ⁓
JACK: at school too, right like you really applied yourself with school Really I wouldn't pick that I you just I think you got a lot of highly visual, you know, you're fun to be around
Ashleigh: ⁓ this is an interesting one. So like I was, I've been diagnosed with ADHD now in my adult life in my thirties. Yeah. You wouldn't pick it? ⁓ I pick my husband is like, Jews is about time. It's been six years. ⁓ no, definitely. Definitely. I'm definitely like a creative, but, but.
JACK: ADHD is just a superpower right? Yeah, exactly. If you know how to harness it. I've been amazing in so many ways. I'm such a creative person, I have so much creative energy, that if I could I would have like 10 creative businesses. Like I just want to do them all and I'm like super hungry for knowledge and information all the time. The same time I found yesterday, I just, you in the Matrix, they like plug in and like download all the I just want to plug in and be like, download all the information because I don't have enough time to read
Ashleigh: Yeah, exactly. it's been amazing in so many ways. I am such a creative person and I have so much creative energy that if I could, I would have like 10 creative businesses. I just want to do them all and I'm super hungry for knowledge and information all the time. I was saying to my friend yesterday, I just, you know in The Matrix how they plug in and they download all the information? I just want to plug in and be like, download all the information because I don't have enough time to read everything I want to read and know everything I want to know. But ⁓ it does make sense to me. I actually really struggled in primary school and in year eight and nine. But the moment I could pick my electives and I had an interest in what I was doing, I was an A plus student. So obviously dance, drama, art were my electives. High distinctions in all of them. A plus for like every assignment I did. English, I was like a B plus, A minus student. Math, fail. Like I just could not like retain that information.
JACK: Yeah, I bet. ⁓ did English. was like a B plus, A minus student. I just could not. it's where you, where you weren't interested. You know, you didn't want to apply yourself. It was, it was like, wasn't that I didn't apply myself. was that I really struggled to focus enough to take the information in. And like I remember as a kid, and this was always a recurring problem.
Ashleigh: It was like, it wasn't that I didn't apply myself. It was that I really struggled to focus enough to take the information in. And like I remember as a kid, and this was always a recurring problem in primary school, my parents would often get called in because I wasn't doing the work. And I wasn't a naughty kid. Like they were like, she's not disruptive, but she's not doing anything. It's all like, if we had tests, I wrote nothing on the tests.
JACK: I wasn't a naughty kid. Like they were actually not distracted, they were just not doing anything. It's all like, if we had tests, I wrote nothing on the tests. Again, I didn't want to make a mistake. That's what I think a big part of that was. also, I would look at everyone's heads go down and start writing and I would think, when the fuck did we learn this? Have I been here this whole time? I would be in the classroom. to retain intuition. Yeah, and I would be listening to the words, not...
Ashleigh: Again, I don't want to make a mistake. That's what I think a big part of that was. But also, I would look at everyone's heads go down, then we'll start writing. And I would think, when the fuck did we learn this? have I been here this whole time? So I would be in the classroom. Yeah, and I would be listening to the words. Not listening though.
JACK: I would be thinking other things at the same time,
Ashleigh: I would be thinking other things at the same time, it's like ADHD, like when you do an assessment for it, they do ask, like, have you had a lot of trauma in life? Because ADHD is tied to trauma. Like, because it, ⁓ trauma, as you affects your brain. ⁓
JACK: ADHD, when you do an assessment for it, they do ask if you had a little bit ADHD is tied to trauma. trauma, as you know, affects your brain. Yeah, I did not know that about the ADHD study. It makes a lot of sense now me looking back at schooling as ⁓ I ⁓ was always a kid getting kicked out. Yeah. You know, and I could... ⁓
Ashleigh: Yeah, ⁓ Yeah.
JACK: learn a little bit and then when it came to things like writing or something I'd apply myself because that made sense to me and then when it came to maths and all the same things as you virtually it would be like well it doesn't make sense to me and I end up just writing over the same thing like three or four times and then I'd cause a ruckus in the classroom ⁓ just be like an outburst. ⁓
Ashleigh: Yeah. ⁓ Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ Yeah. Yeah. Well, your executive functioning doesn't work properly. And ⁓ often trauma.
JACK: like that's why I love what I do ⁓ because ⁓ it it allows to drop back into your body like I teach a lot of emotional regulation and ⁓ And through that alone, plus going back in and finding those key root causes of what we actually went through and changing that belief system and reinstalling new feelings and beliefs in there, gain so much clarity. There's of that fog ⁓ it just clears straight up.
Ashleigh: Yeah. Yeah. ⁓ ⁓ you're
JACK: We'll wrap this up. We're going to have a coffee and then we're going to do part two. ⁓ So thanks for listening
Ashleigh: we'll wrap this up. We're gonna have a coffee and then we're gonna do part two. So thanks for listening to
JACK: to part one
Ashleigh: part one and I hope you come back for part
JACK: and I hope you come back for part