Real-Life Probate Horror Stories & Lessons Learned

Welcome to probate problems and practical solutions. Welcome back to probate problems and practical solutions with Carly Whiteside owner of Copper WRen Law in Mesa, Arizona. Copper wRen Law focuses on probate, probate litigation, guardianship, conservatorship and trust administration across the state of Arizona. I'm Leigh Ann Lyon and today Carly is talking about real life probate horror stories and the lessons learned. This should be fun. Hello Carly. Hello. Carly, what are some of those real life probate horror stories that you have heard over the course of your career? Well, there's quite a few. We get them a lot more often than not, but the ones that really stick out to me are this was not currently at Copper Ren. This was in a previous firm that I was at and I actually wasn't on the case. It was somebody else. So this was kind of a third party like I'd look over the shoulder and go, ooh, I'm glad that's not me. Basically, we had a situation where a parent was incapacitated. He did a guardian conservatorship and there were four siblings total, adult siblings. And they were all pretty close in proximity. But there was one sibling that kind of took charge and took dad and took him and got new POAs and everything and iced all the other siblings out and pretty much used that to go in and empty his accounts. Did not take care of him. No AC here in the summer. Fridge was not working. I mean, crazy stuff. So the other siblings kind of came together and filed to basically say no. She's not going to act anymore. We need to step in. Here's all this stuff that's going on. In addition to not fixing the home and things, things we're going missing from the house. Vehicles were pulling up to the house and emptying the house out. Crazy, crazy stuff. Unfortunately, due to all the stress and his current medical conditions, he ended up passing away. While we're dealing with the guardian conservatorship, which is unfortunately not uncommon. It's a very stressful event. And so then we dived into the probate. And of course, in addition to getting new powers of attorney done, there was a new will. That name, this other sibling. So we'll just say sibling a as the personal representative and basically it said, they get sibling a gets everything and can decide if the other siblings should have stuff. So that started off a four-year probate litigation matter. And what really contributed to this matter getting completely out of hand was actually sibling a is countable. So sibling a is countable was not familiar with probate. He was hired because sibling a new him from a different matter for a different thing that was not probate, not guardianship. And just said, hey, you want to come over and help me with this. And he was like, sure, it can't be hard. And so the lack of knowledge, understanding and transparency that occurred from her and her counsel. Just, I mean, talk about a dumpster fire that you just tossed a can of gas in it was constant. And so that case was really difficult because the estate was not a large estate. This was not $10 million were fighting over. Okay, this was this was less than 300,000 aggregate. Okay, this was not this is not a large estate. And so there was multiple evidentiary hearings, there was multiple. There was actually a trial, we got to the trial was never, you know, settle. And how it came out in the end was basically it got split four ways, which is what our clients wanted. They didn't even want sibling a disinherited. They just wanted it even split. What makes this one a little bit more on the crazy side was that we got sibling a on the stand got them to admit that yes, they did steal fire arms from the property and from the estate and gave them to their felon child. Who was a prohibited possessor and then this child took it and had them pawned. So we had a chain of title here. And our sign judge, this was in a smaller county in Arizona, so not Maricopa not pan out. It was a very small county. Small counties can be really good or really bad because everybody knows everybody. There's like one or two judges, it's just a different, it's a different animal. And unfortunately we came to figure out that the judge on our matter was very close to the other side's attorney. And so even though we got sibling a to admit on the record, I stole, I gave it to a felon, keep on them. The judge never removed her as the personal representative. Wow. Actually the attorney showed up to when we got everything settled, the siblings were going to go to the house and what was left in the house, they were going to do a lottery. So like everybody goes in and picks something. So okay, it's your turn, go grab something, it's your turn, go grab something. If there's something in dispute, we'll put it to the side and we'll draw lots. Pretty typical when you don't have everybody in agreement. Sibling a's attorney showed up and started putting things in their car from the estate because sibling a's like you can have this. It was very weird. There are some weird things. So that one will always stand out to me just because of the crazy shenanigans. And like I said, this was four years. So there was so many other things that happened. Those were just kind of the highlights. And so that one will probably always stick with me and I will say that the three siblings, their legal fees were over six figures by the time it was done. Oh, terrible. They decided that it was it was worth it to make sure that this was split fairly. So that that one was one that I think I will always remember. Well, you use the term of a different animal, which brings to mind. Can you tell listeners about the French bulldog, wrongful death case and how does Arizona actually value a pet in a probate dispute? I will be frank that this was somebody who contacted my firm and we never did a consultation. The reason for that is pets do not have a state. Pets are considered personal property under Arizona law, which I was very careful to be like, this is how the law sees it. I understand that your animal is your baby. I totally I'm on board. I have two cats myself. They are my little babies. I would be scared to disclose how much money I've spent on vets for them to keep them going because they've made some, you know, eaten something they shouldn't or whatever. They are our babies and I totally understand that. But when it comes to the Arizona courts, that is something that needs to get handled through the civil courts because it's basically basically what was happening was the person that called felt like the animal was maybe not treated appropriately at a veterinary clinic. And so that ended up in the pets passing, which they thought was early. Like they should have lived longer had they had the proper treatment. Now I don't know any of that right that's going to be something where you have to look at records and to be frank, I don't even know what kind of expert you would need. Do you do you get a veterinarian to look at the, I mean, is it like a medical malpractice case on a, you know, for a dog basically. Yeah, it's kind of out of my wheelhouse. And so I had referred this person to the lawyer referral service that we have here in Arizona through Maricopa County. You can call pay $50 tell them what's going on and they will connect you with an attorney that has signed up with that program and you get a free consultation with them. That way on these on these ones that are a little weird, I usually send people there because I want to make sure that they get to the right person. And if I'm not 100% sure I won't throw out a name. But yeah, that one was very interesting. It was I need to open a probate so I can basically go after the vet. And I said with you would need a civil matter because it's damaged to your property, even though I agree that your dog was more than property. We have to go by what airs on a law determined. So that was definitely a first for me. Something else I've seen in the news. Maybe this is outside the wheelhouse, but since we're talking about pets. Have you ever seen a will that left an outrageous sum of money for pets care. Like they are human airs decide to challenge a trust for a tabby cat because they want the cash. I have had a couple of those cases. Really? Yes. And I will tell you I really like those because people. I like defending the trust. I don't like being on the side of the people challenging it for a couple of events. Typically when people include their animals, it's very intentional. These people are extreme animal people. The case that I am thinking of in specifically was this person had to a strange children hadn't talked in like 20, 30 years. Did a trust that said I'm specifically dis inheriting them, which you can do. It's the children are over 18, which obviously they were. And they basically set up their trust to take care of their four dogs and three cats and when they had all passed away, then the rest of the money was going to go to basically some charitable organizations that worked with animals. I believe it was like the SPCA and then a couple other more niche like I think the rescues were they got the animals from something that was personal to them. And I liked it because it's your money. I spend it how you want like your money should go where you want it to go, which is why we always encourage people to do their state plans because if you want to give it all to charity, then do it. If that's what's important to you. And I just I really liked it because each animal had a specific person that was in charge of their care. Some of the animals were in like activities such as I'm sure people have seen the agility. And it seems that the dogs go through the through the different tunnels and up and down. And so in that trust, it said, I want them to continue to still participate in these things. They are almost kind of like a little kid say, keep them in hockey, keep them in band. I mean, it's, you know, there's the dock diving where they'll throw the thing and they'll jump. And so in this particular case, it was, hey, I want them to continue those activities. And this is for their vet care and, you know, keep them comfortable for the rest of their lives. And then when it's all done, it goes out to, you know, the different charities. And to their credit, this person did leave little sums for the people that were taking care of the animals, like, hey, in addition to taking the animal, I'm going to gift you like $5,000 as a thank you. Plus you'll be able to cover all the animals. So that one I liked because this person, I was lucky enough to meet them prior to them passing. And they were just, you could tell their animals were their were their whole world. And it was really good like that they were able to set up their state plan how they wanted it. But the kids were not happy. And they were all been out of shape about the animals. And but, but there was no room to challenge it because they had done the right thing. They had gone to an attorney. They had put in the trust. Like, I'm specifically disinheriting them. I have not seen or spoke of them in X amount of years. And so they were only entitled to get that page of the of the trust that said that language. And they kind of put it together through, you know, other people that knew this person, like asking them, hey, and they're like, oh, no, it's going all the animals. So they never actually saw the trust, but they just kind of heard through the grapevine of what's going on. But yeah, I have, I have seen that a few times. And for me, it's like some people that is their babies and they should, they should be able to take care of them. That's the beauty of a trust. You can be as specific as you want. Are you sure? Yep. Absolutely. Have you ever handled an Arizona case where a secret marriage or child appeared during asset distribution? And how might that ends? Well, I think it's clear how that could instantly blow up a simple estate plan. I've had a couple. I've had one where there was a lot of beneficiaries already on a case. And then, so like a large sibling had passed. So then it was they weren't married. So it was going to the other siblings. There was no state planning. But some of those siblings had passed. And so then it would their share would pass on to the children. So we're kind of doing a trickle down. So it's a situation where maybe there's, you know, 10 shares. And then a couple of siblings have passed. So then you get a fourth of a 10th. We're getting into some some math here. But there was some dissension that the, the predacy sibling, maybe all the kids claiming to be their kid weren't. And so in that case, we had to actually get birth certificates from the like the nieces and the nephews basically to confirm paternity and maternity, depending on which sibling it was. So we went from having, you know, 10 total heirs. I believe when we ended that case, we're at like 24. That's the most I've ever had on appropriate was 24 beneficiaries. And so it was a lot of paperwork. People were upset because they felt like, hey, that's, you know, they're not. And I'm like, nope, I've received documentation from them that they are an air. And they're like, show me. And I'm like, no, no, I've seen it. That's all that matters. So I've seen that one where, you know, we just say, hey, if you can send me adoption paperwork, if you can send me a birth certificate, a legal birth certificate that shows this person on your birth certificate as your mother or father, that's good enough for me. I did have a case where there was a decedent where he passed he wasn't married. And he had had a child who was an adult by the time he passed and he'd always take care of her. But his siblings, his two siblings basically said, no, she's he's he thought of her like a daughter, but she's not actually his biological child. And in that case, in order to prove it, pictures aren't enough, right, showing contact is not enough. So in order to resolve that one, we actually had to have one of the siblings submit their DNA and do a familial DNA test to show like aunt, uncle to niece nephew to show the link because we weren't able to obtain DNA from the decedent before they were cremated. We fast the sibling came in literally filed for probate informally and said it's just us and then got him cremated like within the span of like five days. And then we had to come in the back and do the DNA testing. And so that was really interesting because we actually had the court order this person to do it. They were refusing. And so we forced them to go give their DNA for this test. And it turned out that our client was the biological child and therefore the sole air. And so they inherited everything. And then last real quick, we had a caregiver come in and basically everything was fine. Everything was fine. And then all of a sudden, no one can get a hold of caregiver and person being care given for. There was a 40 year age difference and the caregiver took him and married him and then concealed it. And then he passed away about three or four months later. So we had to basically go in and be like the fact that he had caregiving means he didn't have capacity as we discussed on a previous episode and basically saying no, you did not fall in love with this person in the span of like four weeks, not appropriate. 40 year difference, like look, I'm not here to judge y'all, but if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck is probably a duck. And also if you guys were so in love, why did you hide it? Why did no one go the wedding? Why, why was this all secret? And then after he died, you came out and you're the grieving widow. It was hard to watch and a little bit dramatic, but that one did end up getting resolved. But yeah, it was very stressful for us and the person we were representing because they were like, I had no idea what the heck's going on. I literally hired this person to help my parent and then they just completely betrayed my trust, my parents trust. And then like I said before to get all that stuff unwound, it's just it's an uphill battle, such a mess. So yeah. As we wrap up here and looking back at your most complex horror stories, what is the one DIY probate mistake that almost always turns a $5,000 case into a $50,000 litigation nightmare? Please make sure that if you have a state planning documents, you pick someone who feels comfortable in this role. I know a lot of people pick a spouse or a kid, but if you feel like this is something that would stress them out or they wouldn't be good at, a lot of people will go into an action. And so that will cause an issue. If you feel like you don't have anybody in your in your life that you can trust with this, there are corporate fiduciaries that will take up this role when you pass away that are uninterested. And I know a lot of people shy away from that because of the associated costs, but you actually end up saving money because you're avoiding litigation because there's no. Well, my sister's doing this. It's this is a corporate person. This is their job. They don't give a rat's patootie how this is split. They're just going to follow the document. And so I encourage people that if you feel like there could be an issue, look into that. Find somebody talk to them before you put them in your trust or will and kind of let them know. So that way when things happen, they don't get a phone call and go, I'm a what? So that would be that would be my biggest thing is just really, really think about it. Really think about it. Excellent advice. Well, that's it for today's episode of probate problems and practical solutions with Carly Whiteside of copper wren law. To learn more about how Carly and her team support Arizona families through probate, guardianship and trust administration, visit copperren law.com. Thanks for listening and remember to like leave a review and subscribe to the show so you don't miss the next episode. Thank you, Carly. Thank you. 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