THE GREAT CRITICAL THINKING CRISIS: How to survive and thrive in the age of AI

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Welcome to prepare for AI to the AI podcast for everybody.
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The podcast that explores the human and social impact of AI.
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Explore where AI intertakes with economics, healthcare, religion, politics, and everything in between.
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Although your mind's opaque, try thinking more if it's just for your own sake.
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The future still looks good, and you've got time to rectify all the things you should.
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Welcome to Prepaying for AI with me, Oedipus.
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Oh, and me, Socrates.
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Hello.
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Although Socrates didn't really I know you spoke all the time but never wrote anything down, didn't he?
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Okay.
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Rather than Socrates.
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But that that that leads perfectly into today's episode, which is a deep dive into critical thinking.
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This is I think the episode that we've planned for the I mean, we've been planning this episode since it seems like since we started this podcast.
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It's not it's obviously not that long, it's probably about three or four months, but we've been wanting to do this for a while, haven't we?
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We've been thinking about it.
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We've been critically thinking about it.
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So I'll let you introduce uh why and also maybe define what critical thinking is, um, and a disclaimer that we're not experts.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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So, well, we want we want to talk about it because it's really, really, really important, and it's becoming more and more important.
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So people live their lives online now.
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Um, we're all uh subject to algorithms.
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Um, there are algorithms in everything.
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Everyone started using AI all the time, and AI can make stuff up and can hallucinate or can be sycophantic and just sort of tell you what you want to hear.
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Um, and so this is where we want to talk about critical thinking as a as a concept and as a bit you know, a bit of a call to action in a way, in that we think that it is something that is maybe there's not enough of it these days, maybe maybe we're lacking it, or maybe it's just something that's becoming more and more and more important because we're all exposed to so much information, and maybe I don't know, 30, 40, 50 years ago that we've got to be.
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We could take the maybe out.
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I'm pretty sure.
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Oh, yeah, well no, you can definitely take the maybe out.
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It's true, isn't it?
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It's true, yeah.
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It's what we think.
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So, what is critical thinking?
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Because it's not um it's and again, we're not experts, so I'm I'm you know, part of this.
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I'm reading from a screen here to make sure to keep me on track, but um it's at its core, it's not scepticism and it's not just like question everything.
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So, what we're not gonna talk about in this episode is kind of like you can't believe anything you see online, that kind of stuff.
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Um so it's really about um evaluating, it's quite scientific in a way, it's more philosophical, and I'm gonna talk about the distinction between philosophy and science in a little while.
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Um, but it's the practice of evaluating claims, evidence, and reasoning, including your own, with enough rigour that you can distinguish what you actually know from what you merely assume, feel, or want to be true.
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So it involves metacognition, which is reflecting or thinking about your own thinking, questioning yourself, how would I know if I were wrong, and what would change my mind?
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Um, so that's probably a better, you know, a better way of thinking about what critical thinking is, rather than just basically that's bullshit, I don't agree with it, is it true?
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Questioning everything.
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It's not necessarily that, it's actually to be honest, it's hard work, it's putting quite a lot of effort into thinking about thinking, questioning yourself, like doubting yourself to a certain extent, um, but doubting yourself in a good way, in a it's challenging yourself to to you know to either I suppose you either, you know, I mean it's not it's not like you have to critically think about everything, you'd be you'd be a philosopher, probably, you'd be spending all day researching everything.
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Um but maybe the next time you watch a bit of what I would call entertainment on YouTube or you engage in a call it propaganda.
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Well, but this is the problem, right?
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There's so much stuff online now where I think the distinction before, like when you watch TV, it was like, right, now for the news, here's some news.
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Now you're watching East Enders.
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No one no one thought that East Enders was like giving you factual information.
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I think the lines are blurred now because everything's about influences, everything's about someone trying to convince you to go along with their beliefs.
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Even the stuff you give the example, sorry, EastEnders.
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Even the stories in East Enders, I would say there's an agenda be- I don't watch East Enders, then I did, but now there's an agenda behind them that I think in the past occasionally there would be, right?
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There'd be a story that like they want to draw attention to child abuse because it was a a thing in the news, or they want to draw attention to male suicide, you know, which is which is very, very um noble.
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But now it almost seems like in everything there is even if there isn't a sort of narrative and undercurrent, there is a suspicion that there is anyway.
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So whether there is or not, people are viewing it through the lens of they're either naively viewing it or they're actually viewing it through too cynical a lens of like, ah, they're trying to convince me of this.
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So it's it's it's it's a web of we're gonna talk about this, aren't we?
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But it's a web of it's not just about like you can't believe what you can see, it's also about you know this idea of actually where you do have to believe something, and actually also you can't just say, Well, I kind of don't believe anything because everything is nonsense now.
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Like that that's also not critical thinking.
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No, absolutely, but I do as I say, I do think the way media's gone, it feels like almost all of the content we consume these days, the lines are blurred.
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Um, you know, at most uh most stuff online, you you can't you almost can't just chill out and watch something because you're watching something on YouTube and it and someone's trying to always trying to convince you or influence you.
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Whereas I do feel like some of the old um old older entertainment uh like TV, things like that, old fashioned media, it was kind of like it was like going to the library, do I want to read fact or fiction?
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And it's like you know, it's it's in the fact section or it's in the fiction section.
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On being online all the time, it's not like that.
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No, it's a real minefield where you don't know what the agendas are and who's trying to convince you of what and what's behind something.
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Yeah, and power power is influence, right?
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And and influence is having the most followers on social media.
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Yeah, exactly.
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And then and then there's all sorts of things mixed up with that.
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Um I'm just gonna touch a little bit on philosophy because effectively this critical thinking came out of philosophy.
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So science is actually much younger than philosophy in terms of so so the physical sciences, for example.
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And science is all about um you know empirically being able to measure something, so how far away is a star, how small is an atom, things like that.
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But things where you can make a prediction and then empirically measure it.
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And science is always questioning itself and continues to expand.
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But fundamentally that's what science is about.
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What philosophy philosophy originally covered all of that because we didn't really have the instruments to measure stuff.
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So the first people that the first uh philosoph the first people to talk about science, so like for example, the uh the name of the atom is actually derived from I think it was Socrates, came up with the name Atom, because back two thousand years ago, philosophers philosophized about how how the universe was made up, and they didn't have any way of measuring anything.
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Um they couldn't do that part, but more and more and more over the last um at least 2,000 years, science has kind of stripped away quite a lot of that, and that's effectively how I see it working.
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So science has gone right.
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Well, we can actually measure that now, we can look at that, we can measure that, we can put a label on it, we can define it, whatever.
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But that leaves, I think, still the majority of everything that we deal with day to day, so anything about politics, anything about beliefs, um, all that kind of stuff, uh it then and and and all the human interactions really, it then comes down to philosophy and critical thinking.
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And this this is stuff where there isn't necessarily a right or wrong answer.
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This is stuff where maybe it's down to opinion and you have to you know pick one side or the other, but you still have the ability and it's been developed through philosophical practices to think critically, and again, that comes down to just really challenging yourself.
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Like what would it take to change my mind?
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Am I just entrenched in my views?
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Am I biased?
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Because that's really what it's all about in a lot of this stuff.
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So I I don't think we're gonna talk about a lot of the science stuff today.
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I think this is gonna be, and we're obviously gonna focus it on social media and AI, and the reason why critical thinking is um like becoming a really, really important skill, which I think maybe we are lacking.
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Yeah, I in in the intro, I just want to add one thing that I'd I'd I made separately sort of notes for this episode from you, and interestingly sort of Socrates and Socratic dialogue came up in my notes as well.
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There was one thing that you very briefly touched on I thought really useful to add here, though, is um critical thinking.
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So there's an an expert on this called Warren Smith who's kind of highlighted this idea, critical thinking is not intuitive, so it actually needs to be taught, otherwise you basically have this tribalistic way of thinking.
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So you have to teach it to try and counter your tribal evolutionary impulses that are basically that you would accept a consensus narrative.
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So you accept like what the consensus in society is.
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So they this is this idea that critical thinking, it's not an art it's not just okay to sort of go away and be like, Oh yeah, um I need to think more critically, or to assume that sort of children, if we just remind our children to do it, we actually need to be taught, and you know, as adults we have kind of been taught this, so for maybe for us it's like going back and remembering it, but you have to teach critical thinking, you can't just assume it's not something that will just happen.
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So it is a taught way of thinking, and that, like you say, philosophy is a great way to learn it, so maybe you know go and read society um when you've finished with this episode.
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Plato's Republic.
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I remember trying to read Plato's Republic, it's pretty dense, pretty hard work, but it is effectively just two people having a conversation and reasoning out, you know, how should we set things up and why we should set things up that way.
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Um, and I'm not I'm not gonna go into loads of details, but the same thing with like the founding fathers, right, in the US.
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When they set the US up, effectively, a bunch of really smart people went and sat down in a room and thrashed out how are we gonna set things up.
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And um, I can't remember how long it took them, but the the outcome of that was you know, arguably some of the best philosophy on an academic almost philosophy on how to how to set up and run a republic.
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Yeah, and just the real irony of this is like how would someone you can imagine now how someone would set that up is they'd go in a room and they'd be like, let's let's ask Chat GPT, let's ask Floyd to do it.
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Like it is the extreme but is the extreme version of what we're gonna talk about, isn't it?
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That we're already outsourcing the sort of decision-making process, and it's not just about whether it comes out with a better answer or not, no, it's about the fact that you need to engage in that process, like that's that's as important as the outcome, yeah.
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So should should we kick off then?
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Um, like so so we've sort of defined critical thinking, but why why is it more important now than ever?
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So there's this idea, you know, that you see around it information decay, um, you know, information's getting worse, we don't know what's real, cognitive laziness, you know, people are just not thinking anymore.
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I mean, when we bring it back to to sort of AI, and I think we'll talk a little bit afterwards about is it just AI?
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You know, there's other things, social media probably primary amongst them as well.
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But yeah, what we're seeing now is outsourcing of like the drafting of of stuff and the synthesis of everything to AI, it's like I just mentioned, it's like even if the outcome is good, you're bypassing the process that builds memory.
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I mean, literally, I'm not just saying builds memory, but literally is like grows the brain.
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Like the brain develops through creating synapses.
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If you if you just get the outcome, even if you just learn the fact, if you don't learn the process, you you literally don't develop.
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Yeah.
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And I think I think that what one of the the internet's wonderful, but one of the results of the internet is that a lot of us now spend our time in echo chambers, and algorithms push us into echo chambers anyway.
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And if you're in an echo chamber, you are by definition, and well, you're not necessarily by definition not critically thinking, but back in the day, to be honest, if you you know you would speak to the people around you, and different people have different ideas about things, and so you'd have to always constantly be challenged.
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Um, and so I feel like that's been lost, and that's where that's where this that's where social media and AI have got a massive part to play in that.
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They take you away from actually being challenged and actually having to justify what you what you think and what your what your views are, right?
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Yeah, I I think because we're gonna go into social media.
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I I th I'm we've we've done an episode on social media.
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I think we we will definitely talk about social media, but I don't want to go into that now because I'm worried we'll end up talking for an hour on social media, but on AI in particular, so I think there's a big difference that's really important to put in here.
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So AI is like it's an active conversational co-thinker, right?
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So the the sort of partnership of a conversation with AI, and the reason for this what they call meta what is it, metacognitive laziness, is that it's just creates this frictionless feedback loop where you accept the output, but then also the conversation is being shaped by by the output and by the conversation.
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So it's like it's like a loop that is just you know it's it's self-enforcing.
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So it tells you something and then you agree with it, and then it like it goes further and further down that path.
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Whereas if you're on so sorry, not social media, but let's say you're on Google before and you kind of search for something and you're searching, you're you're you're to at least some degree you're still critically like going through information.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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But here you're just being told one thing, and you're quite often being told the thing that you want, which is already reinforcing something, and then the conversation is like just narrowing and narrowing and pushing you further and further down, and you just you know there's no self-regulation, right?
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It is just I think that the the most dangerous thing with that that we've touched on.
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I know you you have a very strong opinion about this, but is the kind of sicker fancy of it, and I know they have changed this somewhat, but still, like AI is trained because it wants your engagement, it's trained to make you feel good, and it's trained to tell you to some degree what you want to think, and it you it kind of knows even on a basic conversation from your question, it kind of knows where you want to be led.
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Yeah, j j generally like AI generally so it's not that it will never ever challenge you.
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Like if you're wrong, it will find a polite way of saying, no, that's just wrong.
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But most questions, especially most things, you're talking to AI, aren't just factual things, you know, you're asking it life questions, you're discussing business opportunities with it, that kind of thing.
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Stuff that definitely um has a lot more nuance than it's just a fact, right, wrong answer.
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And those are the things where you know, if when you're using AI, you need to be really careful because depending on you how you phrase a question, so depending on how you pose a question to AI, so if you say to AI, I'm really, really excited about this new business opportunity that's been presented to me and that I've got the opportunity to work on, and then you explain it, you've told it that you're very excited about it, and so that is definitely going to influence it.
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If you on the flip side, if you say, I've I've my friend told me about this business idea, I think it's a really crap idea.
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What do you think, chat GPT?
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It will give you comp it potentially will give you completely the opposite answer.
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We've talked about this before, I think, on previous episodes about I'm always I try to be really careful now when I'm talking when I'm asking AI questions like that.
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So if it's about my health, if it's about medical stuff, if it's about my relationship, if it's about what I was just talking about, like a a business idea, I try to be as neutral as I can because it it wants to please you.
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Like it will it will if it senses what you're you know, and it's very easy to do that through language, if it's if you bias it, if you give it a bit of bias, like you're really excited about something, I think this is a bad idea, something like that, it will it will definitely um try to please you, and it will definitely agree with you.
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And and even if you don't put that into it, like you don't we don't know what's in an AI's system prompt.
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We don't know we can't possibly understand what's in all of its training data.
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Like if you ask three AIs the same question and it's if you ask the same AI the same question three different times in three different chats, you'll get different answers.
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Different answers, yeah, exactly, potentially, and it might depend on the context of what you've said before.
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So I think the overall point is like you're you have to still be in control, and I feel like more and more when you speak to people about how they use AI, they I think a lot of people do just almost take whatever the AI says as gospel for what of a better word.
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There's something called the anchoring effect and intellectual homogenization, which is the first default output you receive from an AI or large language model shapes subsequent thought via this thing called the anchoring effect.
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So basically it steals variance, it replaces different perspectives and different narratives with like one standardized thing.
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And I think the really important thing here is like AI or you it steals it from you, it still but I do you remember there was um I think this example was from Chat GPT that I think we talked about this.
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I've certainly I I think we've talked about an episode, but maybe not.
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There was an example of where something had been disproven that was in GPT's training data, and then it had been disproven, scientifically disproven, or I don't say disproven, like there was new evidence that suggested the answer was now not right and something was more right, but it continued to answer in the basically based on the old kind of scientific data, and when challenged, of why did it answer that way, even though it was wrong, it was it was because even though that data does sort of disprove it, actually there is more information that gives the original answer, and there's more training data, and it's sort of weighed more in that direction that even when something is disproven it, it continues to tell you the original answer.
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And I just say that for the example that I think when people like I'm talking to the AI and the AI will tell me the right answers, like it's opinion in the same way, like to some degree, it's opinion in the same way as when I come to you and I say, like, what should I have for dinner today?
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and you tell me what you should have is your opinion.
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AI giving you that is still its opinion.
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Yes, it might have more data than you've had to make that opinion or less data, but it's still an opinion, but it's giving you in such a way that you like you say, people are taking as absolute, so that the the challenge is not there because you one, you believe that it has a higher level of intellect, secondly, you want it to tell you that you're right, right?
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I mean, there are two things that get your attention doom, like fear, yeah, engages, and the other thing is having your ego massaged and being told how great you are.
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Oh, you your business idea is fantastic.
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Oh, I've got a great business idea, AI told me it was great.
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It's like, well, of course it told you it was great.
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Yeah, and it's a this is a bit like we do we you know, we talked about it a while ago, like loads of people um are now using AI to talk about medical conditions, but to the point where people are going into doctors' offices and basically telling the doctor they're wrong because they chat GPT has already has already like figured it all out.
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Um and that kind of thing, you know, is very dangerous.
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Like taking an interest in your own um taking an interest in your own body and taking an interest in what's wrong with you is obviously obviously useful and loads of people are using AI for these purposes right now.
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Uh and sometimes it might be it might point to something that's really useful.
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In fact, maybe maybe more than five out of ten times it will.
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Um but then you shouldn't, you know, you you can only trust it so far, and it's not infallible.
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Um, and to be honest, if a if a doctor's arguing with it, the doctor's probably got a good chance of maybe maybe they know something.
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What you still got as medical, there's apparently, and like this is from an AI, so who knows if this is true or not, but apparently, brains under the age of 25, there's a threat.
00:21:43.519 --> 00:21:48.799
I d I don't know why 25 is a cutoff, but you know, something in terms of the way that synapses form in the brain.
00:21:48.960 --> 00:21:58.400
Um frictionless AI risks cognitive foreclosure, so the permanent closing of certain developmental pathways in the brain by the age of 25.
00:21:58.640 --> 00:21:59.839
And then when you've bipassed.
00:22:00.400 --> 00:22:10.960
That you would then struggle to synthesize complex ideas because the prefrontal cortex, which you know, well, people hopefully know that is part of the brain.
00:22:11.200 --> 00:22:18.240
Um that is a neural network, quite ironic considering an AI is a neural network.
00:22:18.400 --> 00:22:29.200
You're using that neural network, your neural network or the under 25's neural network is literally not constructing because it is not engaging in the process of thinking.
00:22:29.519 --> 00:22:30.079
Process of thinking.
00:22:30.240 --> 00:22:49.440
Yeah, I mean it like whether this is exactly the definition of critical thinking we're talking about, but the point here is like the process of thinking, like I said before, is like it's not just about like whether you become your political allegiance is the wrong way, or whether you stop thinking the right way and you become depressed or more anxious or whatever.
00:22:49.599 --> 00:23:05.599
Is there's literally a you know a developmental thing here that not thinking properly and just relying on the answer, it it I mean this this is this is frankly like terrifying, I think for anyone with children anyway.
00:23:05.920 --> 00:23:09.039
Yeah, I mean it's it's happening more and more in education now, isn't it?
00:23:09.200 --> 00:23:28.880
Where you we're hearing that GPT is being used, uh sorry, AI in general, is being used so like on both sides, so so you know kids are using um kids or adults actually are using GPT to to write their answers, and then it's been used also for marking people's answers.
00:23:29.039 --> 00:23:38.559
And I don't know what the solution to that is, but the it's you do the more I think about it, you have to you have to take a i uh AI out of that completely.
00:23:38.720 --> 00:23:59.440
Like you can use it, you could use if you could enforce it, you could say, well, you can use AI to do the research, but ultimately you have to read everything, you have to make the decision yourself, you have to choose which path you're gonna go down, and then that's your you know, I don't know if it's a if it's a English essay or a history essay, all of those things are very opinionated, so you need to form your own opinion.
00:23:59.599 --> 00:24:08.079
If you're asking GPT to write it, then you're not exercising any of that part of your brain, and you're definitely not developing your your own brain.
00:24:08.319 --> 00:24:30.480
Um do you do you think I'm I'm going off tangent with this question, but do you think we're headed to a world in which we have a dual-track digital and analogue world where because like you say, like when you say we have to find a way around this, the only way around this is to like introduce like or bring back a degree of analogue.
00:24:30.559 --> 00:24:45.200
I I can't remember which country it was, I think it's Sweden where they've had is it had they've had no physical books, I think, in schools for a period of time, they've been using basically digital resources like iPads and stuff, and they're now moving back to physical books.
00:24:45.599 --> 00:24:50.880
And I and I wonder whether like yeah, yeah, I'm I I wonder whether we like some degree of that.
00:24:51.039 --> 00:24:57.680
I mean, I know I've talked to you in episodes, I think like really rich people's banking will be done in in in a branch again in the future.
00:24:57.920 --> 00:25:01.200
I'm not talking the general public, but because of the risks of cyber attacks.
00:25:01.440 --> 00:25:02.720
I I wonder whether we're headed.
00:25:02.880 --> 00:25:11.039
The only way around this, you know, because we are getting to that point where then teachers just know it goes on, is like, well, like we all know it's happening, but we don't know how to stop it.
00:25:11.119 --> 00:25:15.039
The only way to stop it, it's like with social media well, don't allow the phone into the classroom.
00:25:15.200 --> 00:25:21.839
You're gonna have to go to an analogue way of learning because it's the only way to stop this from happening.
00:25:21.920 --> 00:25:25.920
It doesn't stop it completely, but you're not you're not actually saying like never use AI.
00:25:26.000 --> 00:25:32.720
What you're saying is there has to be some separation between that, there has to be a way that you force critical thinking to happen.
00:25:33.359 --> 00:25:36.000
Yeah, I think so.
00:25:36.960 --> 00:25:51.440
My opinion on that is that you and I I'm sure this is already happening, so again, I'm not an expert in education, but I presume uh let's go with the presumption that things move fairly slowly, which I think is a fair presumption.
00:25:51.680 --> 00:25:52.319
Yeah, yeah.
00:25:52.480 --> 00:26:06.240
So things move fairly slowly, and this is this is a problem right now, in the same way that I think social media's been a problem for the last ten years, and now we're starting to get regulation that's gonna possibly starting to catch up with it.
00:26:06.400 --> 00:26:30.559
Um I think it fundamentally I think it's something where if you want kids, if you want people to learn, let's talk about kids in particular, but if you want if you want kids to learn and you know that giving them homework because they're gonna just do it in chat GPT is pointless, then you have to you have to spend your time in the classroom differently, right?
00:26:30.640 --> 00:26:37.839
So I think possibly instead of giving people homework, you have to talk to them and interview with them and find ways.
00:26:38.000 --> 00:26:44.000
I mean, maybe, because you can't do that one-on-one with every kid, but maybe finding ways of using AI to do things like that, right?
00:26:44.079 --> 00:26:47.920
So if AI, if AI is part of the problem, can it be part of the answer?
00:26:48.000 --> 00:26:56.559
I I know there are already educational AI tools that instead of giving you the answer, they'll help try and help lead you to the answer or try and question you.
00:26:56.799 --> 00:26:58.400
Could that be a possible answer?
00:26:58.559 --> 00:27:00.240
Is sort of use AI on the other side.
00:27:00.319 --> 00:27:10.559
So, right, you have to now um this is just me spitballing, but um, as a student, you're going to ha essentially have an interview with chat GPT.
00:27:11.119 --> 00:27:15.759
So you're able to use AI, but the AI is not an a large language model that will just answer your questions.
00:27:15.920 --> 00:27:18.640
It has guardrails that means it just helps you to learn.
00:27:18.880 --> 00:27:27.680
I think rather rather than so you're not allowed to use chat GPT, but you can use the special educational AI, which is guardrail, to do that.
00:27:27.839 --> 00:27:32.000
Yeah, educational tools that do that teach you this, exactly this, right?
00:27:32.079 --> 00:27:50.880
An educational I can imagine an AI educational tool that like has all the answers, but is is the way it's set up is to always question you and always lead you to critical thinking and make you think about different options and outcomes, and and you know, maybe give you some of the information, but like you have to choose.
00:27:51.039 --> 00:27:55.519
It's like a a choose your own adventure critical thinking thing.
00:28:01.200 --> 00:28:12.880
Right, let's um let's talk about what I think when people start listening to this episode, they probably think we're gonna talk about um with critical thinking, which is like what can you believe?
00:28:12.960 --> 00:28:22.319
So it's this lies, but also the kind of denial of truth, which I think is the other side of it, which people maybe don't think about so much, but is is also gonna be a huge problem.
00:28:22.480 --> 00:28:36.079
So focusing on AI in particular, so it's this hyper-reality thing where basically we have simulated representations that are more prominent at some point maybe than actual reality.
00:28:36.319 --> 00:28:44.960
Like you can look at video that shows you basically anything, 50 versions of it, of which obviously only one is the truth.
00:28:45.119 --> 00:28:46.400
You don't know what to understand.
00:28:46.480 --> 00:28:49.680
The boundary has been completely dissolved between real and fake.
00:28:49.839 --> 00:28:56.079
Um, historically, we've got this kind of you know contract of some degree with media, right?
00:28:56.160 --> 00:29:01.680
We we believe in authenticity, we can't believe video, we can't believe pick, we don't believe anything anymore.
00:29:01.920 --> 00:29:03.200
Is it gonna be that bad?
00:29:03.359 --> 00:29:10.720
If it is, like how how do we I mean how do we critically deal with deepfakes, for example?
00:29:10.880 --> 00:29:13.440
How do we critically now deal with Iran?
00:29:13.599 --> 00:29:17.920
And you know, Iran says we fired this at a US ship, they say we didn't.
00:29:18.079 --> 00:29:21.839
I'm sure you can find a video of it happening and it not happening.
00:29:23.680 --> 00:29:32.799
So the second the second one, so deepfakes, um I I don't I think that's a different challenge.
00:29:33.279 --> 00:29:34.720
I think that's a different challenge.
00:29:34.880 --> 00:29:39.359
I think I think for that, ideally we need some sort of technological solution.
00:29:39.759 --> 00:29:56.960
Like if a deep fake can be so good that you can't tell, then the uh the answer is like for me, you either come up with a technology that can detect it, um, or you do end up in a place where you're like, well, I can't believe anything I see ever anymore.
00:29:57.359 --> 00:29:59.200
Apart from what I literacy with my own eyes.
00:29:59.440 --> 00:30:00.960
Apart from what I literacy with my own eyes.
00:30:01.200 --> 00:30:07.599
And and maybe maybe maybe that's always been the case to an extent, but I think that's where it goes back to what we were saying at the start of the episode.
00:30:07.680 --> 00:30:21.359
I I actually do think if you if we end up in a world where anything can be deep faked, then maybe the critical thinking answer is you do always have to be almost like 100% of the time be on your guard.
00:30:21.519 --> 00:30:23.759
And I and I feel like we are moving towards that.
00:30:23.839 --> 00:30:27.279
So but I I think that's slightly different to I don't believe everything.
00:30:27.440 --> 00:30:37.440
Yes, I think that's I think that's actually a almost a a sensible response to living in a world where anything can be faked.
00:30:37.759 --> 00:30:48.640
It's almost like if you think critically about it, the what you end up with is well, uh my default position should be it could be fake when you start when you w when you're watching something.
00:30:48.960 --> 00:30:50.640
It could be fake, but it's more than that, isn't it?
00:30:50.720 --> 00:30:55.599
Because it's like it not it could be it could be fake, it's almost an assumption that it's fake.
00:30:55.839 --> 00:30:56.079
Yeah.
00:30:56.240 --> 00:31:03.599
Because because if there's more video out there that's fake than real, then that you know, just percentage-wise, you have to assume that it's fake.
00:31:04.000 --> 00:31:08.880
So so to this to the second example um of the Iran War.
00:31:09.119 --> 00:31:16.960
Now, first of all, that that's one of those things that's been that was true back in the Iraq war before we had um so yeah, what was his name?
00:31:17.119 --> 00:31:18.400
Was it Chemical Ali?
00:31:18.960 --> 00:31:26.240
Yes, the guy who was like, no, no, no, everything's fine, and behind him you could literally see Baghdad crumbling.
00:31:26.720 --> 00:31:27.599
Yeah, exactly.
00:31:27.839 --> 00:31:32.079
This has been a a a thing that's been the case for a very long time.
00:31:32.319 --> 00:31:44.640
I mean, in the uh not that probably serfs were that bothered, but like in in the years of William the Conqueror, I'm sure, I'm sure there was communications going back saying, yeah, yeah, everything's going fine.
00:31:45.359 --> 00:31:47.200
Pop out to the front line, it's all okay.
00:31:47.440 --> 00:31:48.160
Yeah, exactly.
00:31:48.240 --> 00:31:50.000
Like that's this is nothing new.
00:31:50.240 --> 00:32:04.960
Um but I think the the the but to answer your question more fully, when I see either side, like you've got two you've got the American side and you've got the Iranian side in a conflict, they're both saying different things.
00:32:05.440 --> 00:32:14.079
Like, okay, I'm from the West, so I'm on the Western side, but my the critical thinking part is do I believe everything America's saying in the Iran war?
00:32:14.400 --> 00:32:16.000
Do I believe uh no, probably not?
00:32:16.079 --> 00:32:17.759
Do I believe everything the Iranians are saying?
00:32:17.920 --> 00:32:20.640
No, that's thinking critically in my opinion.
00:32:20.880 --> 00:32:31.519
Whereas whereas being, you know, being I'm American, therefore everything that Trump says is about the war is true, and I'm gonna ignore everything else is not thinking critically.
00:32:32.000 --> 00:32:40.799
To put a slightly optimistic slant on this, which is unusual for me, but when so that story, I don't even know if that I I'm I'm presuming that there's video showing both things.
00:32:40.880 --> 00:32:46.480
I read that story, like I didn't watch any video of it, and my first thought was just well, hang on.
00:32:46.640 --> 00:33:01.599
So on one side we've got this, and I just made an assessment of what I think is the reality, which is that well, I think the reality is probably that you know, I think something was probably fired, I think it probably hasn't caused as much, and they have a reason to say they did, and they have a reason to say they didn't.
00:33:01.839 --> 00:33:04.240
And I just made an assessment based on what I read.
00:33:04.400 --> 00:33:13.200
Actually, if I'd seen the two videos, right, one showing the missile hitting it, I'm in exactly the same position as I was with just reading the words.
00:33:13.279 --> 00:33:17.279
Yeah, that I'm just going, okay, that's one side's opinion, and that's one side's as well.
00:33:17.440 --> 00:33:20.079
So therefore I just have to make an assessment of what I think.
00:33:20.240 --> 00:33:22.480
Yeah, it's it's no different.
00:33:22.640 --> 00:33:31.920
The problem, I guess, is that it was always like, okay, but you rely on, like, for example, in a court case that he said, she said, if you've got any evidence, you have got the email, you have got the CCTV, right?
00:33:32.160 --> 00:33:37.440
Now the CCTV is no longer evidence, or it might be evidence, but it might not be.
00:33:37.599 --> 00:33:39.279
So you haven't got the kind of fallback.
00:33:39.440 --> 00:33:55.519
But actually, you're right, fundamentally it's the same question, which is just you're having to make an assessment based on what you know about the two sides, based on probably you'd hope some degree of independence, but then the problem is we're all biased to some degree anyway.
00:33:55.920 --> 00:34:07.279
So I'm making that assessment on the US and Iran probably differently to what I would 10 years ago, because I have a slightly different bias in my opinion about what comes out of the US as I did 10 years ago.
00:34:07.599 --> 00:34:08.159
Yeah.
00:34:08.400 --> 00:34:10.239
I don't know how I'm never saying that's positive.
00:34:10.400 --> 00:34:16.320
What I'm saying is that like fundamentally there isn't a difference between reading words and watching videos.
00:34:16.559 --> 00:34:21.280
The issue is that the video was kind of the last thing that was like the the the proof if you needed it.
00:34:21.360 --> 00:34:25.519
The break glass, you know, in case of emergency, break glass, get the video and you can prove one way or other.
00:34:25.679 --> 00:34:25.840
Yeah.
00:34:26.000 --> 00:34:33.119
Now there's no there's no definitive, like it's all based on so it is like going back to William the Conqueror.
00:34:33.199 --> 00:34:45.360
It is based on when there was originally the word, you know, the written press, and people were like, what was written down must be true, then people realise it wasn't true, and then they're in that position until you got video or you got photo, then you got video, now we've got nothing.
00:34:45.679 --> 00:34:57.360
I think that's the sad thing for me, is that video mentioned it before, like video uh this is unless we can come up with a technological solution that just can just figure out deep fakes.
00:34:57.599 --> 00:35:04.079
Um but the Well you can, but you have to trust the cool thing with video, that's the problem.
00:35:04.320 --> 00:35:05.440
Yeah, yeah, true.
00:35:05.679 --> 00:35:19.280
The the cool thing about video for you know how long however long we've had video, um, you know, like a hundred years or something, was that you could see something with your own eyes without even being there.
00:35:19.519 --> 00:35:20.000
Yeah.
00:35:20.239 --> 00:35:27.440
But I I think you're right, like either side of that, so from now on, you can't actually believe stuff anyway, because you can fake it.
00:35:27.679 --> 00:35:31.440
Um oh and the moon landings were fake as well, anyway.
00:35:31.679 --> 00:35:33.679
Uh but that's different, different.
00:35:33.920 --> 00:35:43.199
Um but then but but then before a hundred years in the past, yeah, you absolutely had to rely on word of mouth and what someone was telling you.
00:35:43.360 --> 00:35:45.119
Um so maybe we're just going back to that.
00:35:45.280 --> 00:35:47.039
It does it it seems like that, doesn't it?
00:35:47.199 --> 00:35:47.760
It seems like that.
00:35:47.840 --> 00:35:57.280
I mean that the thing that you've got at the moment, because you you touched on technological versions, so like the BBC, for example, have their you know BBC's verified.
00:35:57.440 --> 00:36:06.480
So if you trust the BBC, I'm not telling people listening whether they should or shouldn't, I'm just saying if you trust the BBC, you can then go, oh well the BBC have checked that and they've said it's fake or not.
00:36:06.639 --> 00:36:12.239
So if the BBC had the technology and you trust the BBC, your trusting is kind of dealt with there.
00:36:12.400 --> 00:36:14.960
The problem is, why do you trust the BBC?
00:36:15.039 --> 00:36:16.239
How do you trust the BBC?
00:36:16.400 --> 00:36:19.199
How do you trust anyone knowing that everyone's got an agenda?
00:36:19.440 --> 00:36:23.440
That I guess is the issue, is like there are all kinds of layers of this.
00:36:23.519 --> 00:36:32.239
It becomes like the fact-checker thing, which you know I hate fact-checkers because it's just someone saying, Well, I'm gonna add another level on, of which I'm gonna decide whether this is true or not.
00:36:32.480 --> 00:36:34.079
Who has that technology?
00:36:34.320 --> 00:36:35.840
Unless unless do you know what?
00:36:35.920 --> 00:36:44.480
Unless you open source that technology so everyone has access to it and everybody can check video, that would sort of sort of resolve the problem, to be honest.
00:36:44.800 --> 00:36:49.679
You're sort of saying how can you get a truly independent arbiter of the truth?
00:36:50.079 --> 00:36:50.320
Yeah.
00:36:50.480 --> 00:36:50.719
Yeah.
00:36:50.880 --> 00:36:57.760
But if you trust open source as independent and that is the arbiter, and you can all use the AI open source tool to check the video.
00:36:58.559 --> 00:37:02.239
I don't I don't know if that's possible, but it would be a a way to do it.
00:37:02.559 --> 00:37:03.199
Hmm.
00:37:03.840 --> 00:37:08.400
Okay, there's this this thing that you it's well, you talked about this.
00:37:08.480 --> 00:37:11.519
I I've when I research it's called the liar's dividend.
00:37:11.679 --> 00:37:16.400
Um and also I guess another way to look at is like erased accountability.
00:37:16.639 --> 00:37:23.599
So this is this idea that deep fakes and I and I this just this example just really makes me think of Donald Trump.
00:37:23.760 --> 00:37:25.360
It just really makes me think of Donald Trump.
00:37:25.440 --> 00:37:34.719
It's where basically a public figure just has deniability because any kind of scandal you just dismiss it and say, Well, must be a fake.
00:37:35.039 --> 00:37:52.159
And so, you know, public skepticism then means rather than this being about creating fake stuff and creating deep fakes, you just turn it around the other way and you just say, Well, it's fake, and you use that to deny any accountability.
00:37:52.239 --> 00:37:58.079
And actually, the question is still the same one is actually how can you prove it one way or another?
00:37:58.239 --> 00:38:05.920
But I guess at least the incentive with like the creation is you have to have the technology and and you know to create that fake.
00:38:06.079 --> 00:38:17.199
Actually, when we're the example we're talking about here, you don't have to have the example, whatever you've done, whatever evidence is there, you can just say, Well, it's it's obviously fake, it's obviously AI generated.
00:38:17.840 --> 00:38:36.400
Yes, but when you again when you talk about and this is this is subjective, this is this is down to the individual, and this is where it's really difficult, but in that situation, my my so how would you again how would you cr apply critical thinking to that?
00:38:36.639 --> 00:38:50.079
So you would have to look at both sides, see what their motives are, see what their motivation is, probably look at their um their history as well, look at their what's their track record like, yeah?
00:38:50.320 --> 00:38:57.039
And this is where I would say you know, you pr in the previous example you gave I think let's have two extreme examples, right?
00:38:57.199 --> 00:39:05.360
So let's have BBC verify on one side, uh, and then Trump's late night social media's late night social media posts on Truth Social on the other side.
00:39:05.599 --> 00:39:22.800
Like on the one side you've got an organization that was set up specifically to verify stuff and has a track record, and um if you go to the BBC website, they lay out it clearly what their what their mission statement is and how they do things and all the rest of it.
00:39:23.039 --> 00:39:30.639
On the other side, you've got someone who's got a track record of just spouting whatever he wants, basically.
00:39:30.800 --> 00:39:41.760
Um, and uh can pick on other people, there's plenty of sorry, I'm just thinking about how there are a lot of people out there who would say, well, yeah, and the BBC they're just corrupt, but at least Trump Trump's just saying what he thinks.
00:39:41.920 --> 00:39:48.320
There's a lot of people whose view is you know it's the BBC that is the corrupt one and it's Trump who we can trust.
00:39:48.800 --> 00:40:01.760
Fine, but again, if we again if you're thinking critically about it rather than getting emotional about it, um actually a lot of a lot of things that Trump has said have been proven to be false, right?
00:40:01.920 --> 00:40:04.719
So and I don't I'm I don't I'm picking on Trump.
00:40:04.880 --> 00:40:07.519
Um he's the easy, easiest example.
00:40:09.280 --> 00:40:19.360
Whether you like him or not, actually, you can still you can be like, yeah, everything he's said is made up, but I still agree with him on his principles and his policies.
00:40:19.519 --> 00:40:21.599
I still think he's doing good things in the world.
00:40:21.760 --> 00:40:23.199
You can have that belief.
00:40:23.360 --> 00:40:34.000
Um but it but i I I would argue that if you if you say that everything that comes out of the man's mouth is the truth, then you're probably not thinking very critically.
00:40:34.239 --> 00:40:38.639
And it doesn't it doesn't take much to to to get to that point.
00:40:38.800 --> 00:40:41.119
And that's exactly what we're talking about today, right?
00:40:41.199 --> 00:40:47.039
So I would say on that basis, I probably trust something like BBC Verify a bit more.
00:40:47.280 --> 00:41:15.039
Uh I trust you know it's maybe a bad example because it because but but you know, I watch a lot of stuff on I watch a lot of stuff online, I look at a lot of stuff that is science related, and I I do trust that because in a lot of cases in a lot of cases you're looking at stuff that has empirical evidence and it's got and also like you know ninety it's got ninety-nine percent of people on one side and one percent on the other side.
00:41:15.199 --> 00:41:16.239
That's another thing, right?
00:41:16.480 --> 00:41:37.599
So if um if the overwhelming if the overwhelming uh body of evidence is on one side rather than the other, um then if you've got if you're gonna be in the one percent or the two per cent, you're gonna have to come up with a really, really a much better a really really good justification um for that way of thinking, right?
00:41:37.840 --> 00:41:50.639
The only the only thing with that though is that's why when I said at the beginning this um Warren Smith's this consensus narrative, so this consensus narrative is because the majority think it or the perceived majority, then that makes it okay.
00:41:50.800 --> 00:42:02.400
I mean, I think like you you might be right that in the majority of times the majority are correct, but there are a hell of a lot of things where I think the majority are not correct.
00:42:02.639 --> 00:42:11.840
I may maybe maybe that's because I'm not critically thinking, but that heuristic is not reliable all the time.
00:42:12.159 --> 00:42:14.639
I would say it's not reliable a lot of the time.
00:42:15.199 --> 00:42:29.119
So yes, maybe maybe it's not maybe I think I think my point was more like if you're I wasn't sp I wasn't talking about politics or world affairs so much as um some of the stuff I was talking about.
00:42:29.280 --> 00:42:36.320
So so like okay, uh I'll use I'll use um flat earthers flat earthers around here.
00:42:36.639 --> 00:43:00.559
Flat Earth, for example, like if I was if I if if I was one of the flat earthers um which are undeniably in the minority, um in that situation and I'm not talking like you know fifty-five percent of people will have this political view and fift forty-five have this other one, um this is something where if you believe in flat earth, you're one of the one percent.
00:43:00.800 --> 00:43:12.079
So if you were to think critically about your position, in my opinion, you would you know you would at least go and explore what the 99% agree with.
00:43:12.239 --> 00:43:12.480
Yeah.
00:43:12.639 --> 00:43:13.039
Yeah.
00:43:13.199 --> 00:43:13.519
Yeah.
00:43:13.760 --> 00:43:19.119
And so the the there's there's they've kidded us by by building that wall around the edge of the earth.
00:43:19.599 --> 00:43:23.119
They've done a really good job of getting all 99% to buy into it.
00:43:23.360 --> 00:43:25.280
And that's an extreme example and there's a lot of nuance.
00:43:25.599 --> 00:43:26.320
It's a good example, I think.
00:43:26.559 --> 00:43:27.119
It's a good example.
00:43:27.360 --> 00:43:29.679
It's a bit of an extreme example and there's a lot of nuance.
00:43:29.920 --> 00:43:34.800
Um but there are you know, and then you can and then you can hone it, right?
00:43:34.880 --> 00:43:59.760
So once you once you get into um I don't know, things to do with polit I don't want to get into politics really, but once you get into things that are political opinions, um I think I again that's where I think I think the world would be a really, really interesting pace place if people who are on one side or the other of political debates just challenged them.
00:44:00.159 --> 00:44:04.400
themselves to think why do the other side think the way they think?
00:44:04.639 --> 00:44:06.719
What what is it that's driving them to that?
00:44:07.199 --> 00:44:11.039
And also didn't just disagree with the other side just because they're the other side.
00:44:11.360 --> 00:44:23.599
Like when you see this, you see they say something, and then the comment comes out from you know the shadow party that is just obviously just you you j I mean this basically you've just asked AI what's the opposite of what they've said and I'll just come out and say it.
00:44:23.679 --> 00:44:23.840
Exactly.
00:44:24.000 --> 00:44:27.119
It's like what why I mean that is the ultimate tribalism, right?
00:44:27.360 --> 00:44:29.280
You you're just you're just for the sake of it.
00:44:29.440 --> 00:44:34.079
It's like they've done something, people don't like it, I'll just challenge it by throwing out the exact opposite.
00:44:34.239 --> 00:44:47.599
Whereas maybe, yeah, I mean, like a good example of that, so we're not going to talk about politics, would be the laziness around Brexit of just saying, Oh, you know, there were the so-called elite, these idiots who voted for Br Brexit.
00:44:47.760 --> 00:44:51.360
You know, it was basically like now it's awkward for me to go on holiday, right?
00:44:51.440 --> 00:44:56.719
And it's like, what what hang on, think about why they've just think for a minute about why they might have done it.
00:44:56.880 --> 00:45:01.280
Instead of you you still don't have to agree with that opinion, but understand why.
00:45:01.920 --> 00:45:05.119
But you can't do your opinion, even in that, even in what you just said.
00:45:05.199 --> 00:45:16.800
But yeah, my opinion is not actually that strong on that side, but I I know a lot of people who've declared that people who voted for Brexit were idiots without having any understanding of it.
00:45:16.880 --> 00:45:20.320
I mean, I think that like that's what created Brexit in the first place.
00:45:20.400 --> 00:45:22.480
So creates a lot of the division, yeah.
00:45:22.719 --> 00:45:37.280
But to that point, I mean, actually, it's uh I think that's a really good lead in to probably the biggest thing in all of this, which is so what is it, Jimmy?
00:45:37.599 --> 00:45:39.840
Social media and the algorithm.
00:45:40.079 --> 00:45:40.639
Indeed.
00:45:40.880 --> 00:46:28.639
Um, yeah, I think it brings us nicely onto that because first of all, I want to get away from politics anyway, but but this is the biggest bugbear that I have, and I think a lot of people are starting to have a bugbear with social media um now, but but the the algorithm, the you know, the the getting funnelled down a a very a specific a certain way on a specific sh subject and being placed into echo chambers whether it's on Facebook, on X, on YouTube, whatever it is, um, by these algorithms, I think is the biggest threat to all of this, um, because effectively effectively it's because critically think critical thinking is hard.
00:46:28.880 --> 00:46:37.519
Being challenged, being having to see someone else's point of view is hard, and we are being given an easy way out.
00:46:37.679 --> 00:46:37.840
Yeah.
00:46:38.320 --> 00:46:41.039
For the last since so social media's existed, and more and more and more.
00:46:41.440 --> 00:46:43.199
Particularly the last ten years or so, right?
00:46:43.360 --> 00:46:47.840
Yeah, particularly in the last ten years, we're just being given provided an easy way out.
00:46:47.920 --> 00:46:55.920
You can you know, you can spend your time mostly online with people who basically agree with you where you're sat, where you're in an echo chamber.
00:46:56.079 --> 00:46:57.760
And also I think it feeds it, right?
00:46:57.840 --> 00:47:09.679
So the more you're in one of these, the more you the more you get funnelled into an echo chamber, the more it echoes, and the more people sort of gravitate to all just believing the same thing anyway.
00:47:09.920 --> 00:47:24.639
We we should say as well, like, because we touched on this at the beginning, we said we'd talk about it later on in the episode, like so social media was degrading cognitive stamina ability, whatever you want to call it, long before generative AI, right?
00:47:24.719 --> 00:47:35.519
So the kind of addictive design, high stimulus, like to be honest, without that, maybe AI wouldn't be a threat because the reason it's a threat is because it's been layered on top of social media.
00:47:35.679 --> 00:47:40.880
I think if we hadn't had social media, AI, the use case for it would just be completely different, right?
00:47:41.039 --> 00:47:42.159
We'd be in a very different world.
00:47:42.320 --> 00:47:47.119
And like it's short form media in particular, right?
00:47:47.199 --> 00:47:48.000
That's that's what it is.
00:47:48.079 --> 00:47:51.519
I mean, TikTok doughing, like shorts, whatever, that kind of stuff.
00:47:51.599 --> 00:47:56.079
Like, I I don't look at them, and and it is like intentional because I don't even want to go there.
00:47:56.159 --> 00:47:57.280
To me, it's like it's like crack.
00:47:57.360 --> 00:48:01.599
It's like if I start on it, I know I might not be able to stop, so I literally don't go near it.
00:48:01.760 --> 00:48:04.400
Um, but it's like instant gratification.
00:48:04.480 --> 00:48:08.880
We're not going to go into the science of the dopamine stuff here, it's not as simple as as people think.
00:48:09.039 --> 00:48:24.880
I wrote an article, I haven't put it out yet on my my sort of health blog in China, which compares social media or particularly short term short form video, ultra-processed foods, pornography, and recreational drugs, right?
00:48:25.119 --> 00:48:32.559
And the reason why is basically if you look at the science behind it, the sort of pathways and the damage is exactly the same.
00:48:32.719 --> 00:48:55.599
Like recreational drugs and and pornography are like kind of an enhanced version, it's quicker, it's faster, but they do the same thing and they create the same, you know, the same sort of need for like we talk about dopamine, it's more it's more complicated than that, but that kind of hit the problem is not about the hit, the problem is that it's like it's the instant gratification.
00:48:55.760 --> 00:49:00.880
That's the problem with it, is it's like I get this thing instantly and then I don't have to earn it, right?
00:49:00.960 --> 00:49:05.440
Pornography has done that with sex, social media has done that with information.
00:49:06.239 --> 00:49:18.239
Look at people now who I write articles which are 2,000 to 3,000 words long, like they're not sure, they probably take you 10 minutes to read through.
00:49:18.480 --> 00:49:26.719
Like, and most people, it's not that they're like, I'm not interested in it, most people like can't read the whole thing because they do not have the attention span to read it.
00:49:26.960 --> 00:49:28.000
Like, it's crazy.
00:49:28.159 --> 00:49:29.360
I mean, like, think about that.
00:49:29.440 --> 00:49:31.519
Like, I try and read books now, I know you do as well.
00:49:31.599 --> 00:49:37.840
I've been trying to read books, and part of the reason is because I'm really constant, but this is exactly but this is the point, right?
00:49:38.000 --> 00:49:46.159
Whereas before I could read a book in like a couple of days, like reading a chapter of a book now and keeping focus on it, like it's hard, it's much harder than it was.
00:49:46.320 --> 00:49:48.480
Once you read a couple of books, you get back into it.
00:49:48.639 --> 00:49:52.239
But like that social media has done that damage already.
00:49:52.400 --> 00:49:58.880
I know this is like different from the kind of critical thinking, no, no, it's fine, but it's it's it's the changes to the brain.
00:49:59.519 --> 00:50:05.280
Like the damage was done by social media, AI is on top of that, so they're they're not they're not separate things, I think.
00:50:05.440 --> 00:50:06.320
They're they're one and the same.
00:50:06.639 --> 00:50:10.480
I think it is related because you're you you know you're shortening your attention span, right?
00:50:10.639 --> 00:50:23.840
So what does you know why why so it's it's slightly different things, but actually critically thinking about something is difficult.
00:50:24.000 --> 00:50:48.719
It takes mental focus and mental energy, and all of what you're talking about, I mean there's there's two sides, there's the echo chamber and then there's and then there's the shortening of attention spans because of short form content um and dopamine hits and and and the way things are designed to just basically constantly um to constantly reward you and give you that reward signal.
00:50:49.039 --> 00:50:58.239
And I think actually, yeah, you're right, like crit like what where's the where's the reward in what we're talking about in critical thinking?
00:50:58.400 --> 00:51:00.400
I I don't it's not the same at all.
00:51:00.480 --> 00:51:05.039
It's not it's it's it in fact if anything, it's like I'm not gonna have the reward.
00:51:05.199 --> 00:51:08.239
I'm gonna in I'm gonna be intellectual about this instead.
00:51:08.480 --> 00:51:13.679
You bought I'm glad you brought us round because I was I was worried that like I'd gone off on track and we weren't gonna get round.
00:51:13.840 --> 00:51:15.360
I think you bought it right right back around.
00:51:15.440 --> 00:51:23.679
Is when you talked about um the the dopamine thing, so like smartphone use, or it's not really smartphone use, it's like it's scrolling, yeah.
00:51:23.840 --> 00:51:29.199
People just do it on a phone, but scrolling whatever you know, short form video, short form context, etc.
00:51:29.440 --> 00:51:30.800
It desensitizes you.
00:51:30.880 --> 00:51:34.480
The dopamine receptors are desensitized because you need instant gratification.
00:51:34.639 --> 00:51:38.079
I saw figure quote, it was like it's 30% higher need for reward.
00:51:38.159 --> 00:51:42.480
I don't know how you get to that percentage figure, but it's a it's a it's a high amount, right?
00:51:42.800 --> 00:51:49.280
Analytical tasks of which critical thinking is an analytical task does not offer instant gratification.
00:51:49.519 --> 00:51:52.400
No, and therefore there is a goes against system, I think.
00:51:52.559 --> 00:51:52.800
Exactly.
00:51:53.039 --> 00:51:58.239
But but you but you haven't you no longer have that reward system, the reward system of effort, right?
00:51:58.400 --> 00:52:05.199
The reward system of effort, the reward system of finding a partner requires effort, the reward system of pornography requires no effort.
00:52:05.440 --> 00:52:13.199
The right the reward system of learning to build something over a long period of time, learning to make music doesn't require an effort.
00:52:13.360 --> 00:52:17.760
The reward process of putting a prompt into Suno and making a piece of music requires no effort.
00:52:17.920 --> 00:52:27.280
Like all of this stuff, like overtime is desensitizing you, and you don't have the cognitive persistence, but I think that's taken away from the key point.
00:52:27.360 --> 00:52:36.639
It's not about it's not about that the the reward's not there at all, but the reward's not the reward you want because it's not instant, and you need this instant reward.
00:52:36.800 --> 00:52:40.559
Like that's the problem, is I think people get confused with like the dopamine thing.
00:52:40.639 --> 00:52:45.039
I said we're not going to go into the science of it, but that it's like I need a dopamine hit.
00:52:45.280 --> 00:52:56.239
It's not that you can't get dopamine, it's not that like you suddenly don't have any dopamine, because like you need you need all of these that you know need dopamine, serotonin, and stuff to it to to live.
00:52:56.559 --> 00:53:11.119
The fact is like your reward system is based now on this instant gratification, and all of these processes don't get that, so you don't feel but then but then it's an empty reward as well, so you don't actually get a really rewarding feeling.
00:53:11.760 --> 00:53:12.320
Yeah.
00:53:12.559 --> 00:53:30.559
I mean I've been having a look here, and it's it's it's actually so I think the challenge is there are there are actually reward pathways for um critically thinking because I won't go into loads of detail, but basically they're not instant and there are things going against it.
00:53:31.280 --> 00:53:35.199
So the main one, and I've I was I I've wondered about this, right?
00:53:35.360 --> 00:53:38.559
So I'll go through these because these are really interesting.
00:53:38.639 --> 00:53:42.320
So first of all, cog cognitive effort is treated as a cost.
00:53:42.639 --> 00:53:50.880
So effectively, um, you know, this is the for me, this is why why do people shortcut the answer to from chat GPT?
00:53:50.960 --> 00:53:52.719
Why do they just ask ChatGPT?
00:53:52.880 --> 00:54:03.360
Um why is that becoming an increasing thing in work where really you're sort of not putting the effort not putting enough effort in yourself, you're just asking Chat GPT and then that's the answer.
00:54:03.920 --> 00:54:08.159
And you can imagine your brain, like your brain uses a lot of energy.
00:54:08.320 --> 00:54:22.960
Um it's probably a like if someone can just give you the answer, then actually if you don't if you're not thinking critically about it, which is an effort, then it is it easier to just accept that answer because it uses less energy up and then you can move on to something else.
00:54:23.119 --> 00:54:26.320
And you can imagine, I won't go into it, but it we're evolved, we're evolving.
00:54:32.480 --> 00:54:35.760
In in a long period, yeah, a long time, but that would make sense, yeah.
00:54:36.239 --> 00:54:36.639
Exactly.
00:54:36.800 --> 00:54:50.719
I mean we evolved big brains to do complex tasks because that had a benefit, but if it no longer has a benefit because we don't need to do it and we can now source it to an AI and to Google and whatever, you know, maybe over a very long time that is a possibility.
00:54:50.960 --> 00:54:53.039
Um this I love this one.
00:54:53.280 --> 00:54:54.559
I love this one again.
00:54:54.639 --> 00:54:56.239
This is kind of an evolutionary thing.
00:54:56.400 --> 00:54:59.599
Tribal belief conformity activates social reward.
00:55:00.000 --> 00:55:00.320
Yes.
00:55:00.639 --> 00:55:11.039
So fighting with people over stuff, like people are gonna be like, you know, frankly, who's this Nobed who like keeps challenging me and disagreeing with stuff and asking me questions?
00:55:11.119 --> 00:55:18.639
Like, is it better to and this is this comes into the whole Facebook and Twitter and um social media online?
00:55:19.360 --> 00:55:31.199
Um uh yeah, so what it says is posting an outrage take that your tribe likes delivers a fast, reliable dopamine hit, whereas quietly updating belief on evidence delivers a slower, more diffuse one.
00:55:31.360 --> 00:55:33.039
The rewards are not symmetric.
00:55:33.280 --> 00:55:47.440
Um I mean that's basically how algorithms work is is yeah like reward the the confrontational thing that divides people and encourages people to like jump behind the people on their side, right?
00:55:47.599 --> 00:55:49.920
Yeah, division, exactly.
00:55:50.159 --> 00:55:58.880
I I found a an interesting quote here because I think we've talked about how social media and AI are the same, but like why they're different, and and this said there is a difference.
00:55:58.960 --> 00:56:02.880
So social media and AI damage cognition, it happens through different pathways.
00:56:02.960 --> 00:56:27.039
Social media is an engine of distraction, so it erodes attention, but an engine of displacement, so the difference is that it's actually substituting the thought pattern, whereas social media is actually distracting your attention, so slightly different, but I think there's a there's a crossover because we're we're not saying like they're not happening in vacuums, right?
00:56:27.119 --> 00:56:28.639
It's not like you're not using them together.
00:56:28.800 --> 00:56:42.320
We we we talked to you in the China example about how AI apps we use the examples of Tencent and Alibaba in China about how they're integrated and how Meta integrates its AI in its social media.
00:56:42.559 --> 00:56:48.159
So if they're integrating the two things together, then you're using one to reinforce the other.
00:56:48.400 --> 00:56:49.840
Oh, they're and they're already.
00:56:49.920 --> 00:57:01.920
I mean, long time ago, the n I I don't know what the numbers are, but significant proportions of Twitter posts are bots, and I think it might have been surpassed 50% like several years ago.
00:57:02.239 --> 00:57:04.400
Teresa Dog Mom 5671.
00:57:04.719 --> 00:57:05.519
Yeah, exactly.
00:57:05.679 --> 00:57:10.719
So to be honest, you chat your AIs are well well well involved with social media already.
00:57:10.800 --> 00:57:11.360
And why wouldn't they?
00:57:11.599 --> 00:57:16.960
And then that's the training data that they're then trained on the social media, which is the bots giving the opinion.
00:57:17.280 --> 00:57:17.519
Yeah.
00:57:17.760 --> 00:57:18.239
Yeah.
00:57:18.480 --> 00:57:20.800
Yeah, it's it's madness, in my opinion.
00:57:21.039 --> 00:57:26.559
I mean, I've got I've got a hot take before we we finish this section, I've got a hot take on that the whole sort of division thing.
00:57:26.800 --> 00:57:32.159
I think that it was and then and there's a sort of video of this from the I really like this bit here, but you can read this afterwards.
00:57:32.559 --> 00:57:49.440
70s and 80s about how the Soviets back in the Cold War era are basically sort of uh trying to cause division in Western society before social media, but but but through but through a very similar thing, and then obviously social media came in.
00:57:49.599 --> 00:58:02.239
Now, whether at that point, you know, hostile states got in on the act or whether it just then happened organically, and then at a later point they then piggybacked back onto it.
00:58:02.400 --> 00:58:25.599
But I definitely think a lot of this the division in Western countries, because it doesn't exist everywhere, like this does not exist in the same way in China for obvious reasons, but a lot of this uh division I think originally was was sowed intentionally, and then social media came along and was just like the gift that just kept on giving, kept on giving.
00:58:30.239 --> 00:58:38.320
So, final sort of section thoughts on this, I guess, is like we know it's a problem, everyone knows it's a problem.
00:58:38.639 --> 00:58:40.639
Is there anything we can do about it?
00:58:41.039 --> 00:58:41.920
Loads of stuff.
00:58:42.000 --> 00:58:43.280
Uh I think this isn't that.
00:58:43.440 --> 00:58:46.159
This is not like we should just say, this is not hopeless.
00:58:46.320 --> 00:58:48.159
Like a lot of people care about this.
00:58:48.320 --> 00:58:51.360
A lot of people do care about it, and I think they're caring about it more and more.
00:58:51.599 --> 00:58:56.000
Um I'll be honest, like I would be pretty radical.
00:58:56.159 --> 00:59:01.599
Um I would I know lots of people agree with this, but don't necessarily do it.
00:59:01.920 --> 00:59:15.360
I would I would be this is gonna sound super extreme, but I would I would probably like completely ban phones in lots and lots of places and lots and lots of situations.
00:59:15.599 --> 00:59:18.719
I I mean and I'm saying governments should do this, not parents.
00:59:18.800 --> 00:59:26.239
I'm not like parents can choose to take mobile phones away from kids if they want to and let them have a phone at a certain age.
00:59:26.559 --> 00:59:32.639
I'm saying I and I I actually I'm not even gonna say I'm saying I think th I this is a prediction.
00:59:32.960 --> 00:59:39.360
I predict that we're going to try to protect um at least children's brains.
00:59:39.440 --> 00:59:55.280
We should probably protect adult brains as well, but we should protect children's brains um in the same way we protect them from smoking, which is dangerous to your physical health, why shouldn't we protect their mental health and why shouldn't we protect the development of their brain?
00:59:55.519 --> 01:00:07.360
And I think over time what's gonna happen is science is gonna there are already scientific articles that we can re that we can refer to, um but it's gonna demonstrate more and more over time that this is actually harming people's brains.
01:00:07.760 --> 01:00:16.480
And therefore the only possible conclusion I can come to is then you start regulating it and banning it and creating laws about it.
01:00:16.719 --> 01:00:22.000
And maybe that sounds m mad and draconian, but maybe it doesn't to some people.
01:00:22.079 --> 01:00:27.039
Like you you you don't allow kids on social media, that's already something that's starting to happen.
01:00:28.000 --> 01:00:39.760
Um mobile devices you severely restrict them, so that I'm not saying that you shouldn't be able to have a a w means of contacting your child, but phones are not primarily for that anymore.
01:00:40.079 --> 01:00:49.039
Um, you know, uh like even the games on we haven't talked about this, but we talked a bit about the dopamine pathways and watching TikTok and things like that, all that stuff.
01:00:49.199 --> 01:00:57.119
All that stuff should probably be severely restricted, limited, or banned from people whose brains are still developing.
01:00:57.280 --> 01:01:00.880
To be honest, as an adult I fight with my I fight with myself on this.
01:01:01.199 --> 01:01:02.800
I should have more self-control.
01:01:03.440 --> 01:01:14.719
But you know, we find ourselves, I'm sure everyone's had this experience as an adult being like, I'm too far down the rabbit hole with social media, I'm taking myself off Facebook for a month, I'm going on a YouTube holiday.
01:01:14.880 --> 01:01:15.199
Yeah.
01:01:15.440 --> 01:01:25.360
You know, so is it that mad to be like, well, if this is actually damaging everyone's brains, then we somehow find a way to like regulate it.
01:01:25.599 --> 01:01:27.199
I I agree with I agree with you.
01:01:27.280 --> 01:01:28.719
I think we're heading in that that direction.
01:01:28.800 --> 01:01:32.079
I think there's a dip that we're heading in that direction with social media.
01:01:32.239 --> 01:01:44.480
We don't seem to have at the moment like considered that well, we should tackle AI and social media at the same time, rather than tackling social media and then waiting 10 years and then doing the same thing with AI, right?
01:01:44.719 --> 01:01:46.639
I I think that's that's absolutely true.
01:01:46.719 --> 01:01:56.159
I mean, I think like the direction is right, the problem is AI is happening so quickly that we don't have time to catch up, and we don't we don't need to wait to do it.
01:01:56.559 --> 01:01:59.039
Um, I think the education thing is really important.
01:01:59.280 --> 01:02:07.119
There there was a something I'd seen about educators separating tools which preserve agency from technologies.
01:02:07.519 --> 01:02:15.679
So like I I don't think it so so so for AI like alters the whole condition of learning.
01:02:15.840 --> 01:02:23.679
Students face this kind of collective action problem where they're just using it just to keep up because everybody else is using it, right?
01:02:23.920 --> 01:02:31.920
In in education, they have to separate that that so you can still use the technology, but you have to decide what tools you use.
01:02:32.000 --> 01:02:43.679
So maybe the example I gave earlier about like not using, I was saying about like going analog with education is maybe your example is better, that it's not that, it's just that the tools that you use have to be limited in some way.
01:02:44.159 --> 01:02:58.159
So within education, I mean I I I think I remember saying this, I did a master's, well, I finished it what last was it last March, it's like a year ago now, and I said I thought it was one of the last people that would ever write a thesis at the end of a master's.
01:02:58.320 --> 01:03:00.880
Like they're still doing it now, so they haven't caught up as quick as I thought.
01:03:01.039 --> 01:03:14.079
But I think you're gonna have to go to exams to test knowledge or some other way because you just can't you can't let someone go home and be able to write it unless you have incredible technology that's ahead of everything else that's able to assess it, and that's just not not gonna happen.
01:03:14.320 --> 01:03:25.519
So it's the same in kind of schools, it's like you just accept the reality and you say, Okay, we're just gonna have to adapt to this, like even if it's not the best technology, because what we need to teach people is not the answer.
01:03:25.679 --> 01:03:31.280
Like, that's the thing is now you don't need to teach people the answer, you need to teach them the way to think and the process of thinking.
01:03:31.440 --> 01:03:34.960
That's far more important than the answer now because the answer is easy to get.
01:03:35.119 --> 01:03:40.000
Yeah, like if you taught before, you taught people maths so that they can do a job where they add it up to get the answer.
01:03:40.079 --> 01:03:45.119
It's like, no, they can use a calculator, they can use a computer, they can use AI, but they need to understand the process.
01:03:46.000 --> 01:03:50.960
But that when the calculator came about, that's obviously going back a long time now.
01:03:51.119 --> 01:03:53.360
Um how old are you, Jeremy?
01:03:53.679 --> 01:04:00.639
Yeah, so but when I mean when the calculator came about, they didn't stop teaching you how to add numbers together.
01:04:00.800 --> 01:04:03.039
Yeah, and that's the same thing with this, right?
01:04:03.119 --> 01:04:20.000
Yes, like you you could have said, well, no one ever needs to add numbers together ever again because you just have a calculator, but there must be something in the process of learning to add numbers together that's useful, and it's growing your, but we've said as well, it's growing your brain to growing your brain, yeah.
01:04:20.079 --> 01:04:22.239
But couldn't you spend that time learning something else?
01:04:22.480 --> 01:04:32.159
True, but then when I'm when I'm in a shop and I think I want four things and I have to remember how many to pick up, I don't want to use like take a picture with AI and it will show me how many to pick up, right?
01:04:32.480 --> 01:04:38.880
And I need a basic level of understanding to exist, it is a basic life skill, however, but it's the same thing with this, right?
01:04:38.960 --> 01:04:43.840
Or bar on steroids because AI can pretty much give you the answer to anything.
01:04:44.159 --> 01:04:50.639
Two years ago, though, I was I was so far down the rabbit hole that I was thinking, like, well, no one's ever gonna go to school or university because there's no point.
01:04:50.719 --> 01:04:58.000
You need just need to teach them how to do farming and you know, I I don't know, think think about things in a novel way.
01:04:58.239 --> 01:05:12.320
But actually, like I've gone the full scale the other way, is like you need to teach them all of those same processes, you need to teach them to write, you need to teach them to read, you need to teach them all of maybe some philosophy, but I mean I can't I can't write with a pen anymore because I haven't written for so long.
01:05:12.400 --> 01:05:20.800
So now I carry a notebook around with me at work, not home, and I try and write stuff down just to practice writing because I I realise after so much summer of typing, you just fall out of the habit.
01:05:21.039 --> 01:05:21.599
Struggling, yeah.
01:05:21.760 --> 01:05:21.920
Right?
01:05:22.079 --> 01:05:24.079
And that's the thing is like kids need to be able to write.
01:05:24.159 --> 01:05:24.400
Why?
01:05:24.559 --> 01:05:27.119
Because they might need to write in the future, so you need to be able to write.
01:05:27.199 --> 01:05:29.679
It's not good enough to just know they know what a letter looks like.
01:05:29.920 --> 01:05:41.039
There's a process to writing that then helps you with other things when you get older, like it's it's not about being able to write a number like because you need to write numbers.
01:05:41.119 --> 01:05:43.760
Yeah, of course you could type it because you've always got a phone in your pocket.
01:05:43.840 --> 01:05:49.760
If you wanted to show someone a number, you could type it, but there will be times that you need to be able to do that, you just need to know how to do it.
01:05:49.920 --> 01:05:55.440
It's not it's not because of the output in the apocalypse, is this when the apocalypse yeah, I mean, okay.
01:05:55.599 --> 01:06:02.239
When the when the when the internet goes down, which I've warned people about in f in previous episodes, the need to be able to write stuff to add things up.
01:06:02.639 --> 01:06:03.679
We're digressing a little bit.
01:06:03.760 --> 01:06:12.719
I I wanted to make one other point about sort of education is when we talk about education and we talked about this early on about like this idea that you need to teach critical thinking.
01:06:13.039 --> 01:06:19.119
I think when we talk about education and like future education has to have this like hybrid intelligence.
01:06:19.280 --> 01:06:27.599
It has to complement and not replace human agency and we need to teach people to critically think and to draft work themselves and use AI to check stuff.
01:06:27.840 --> 01:06:43.519
We're always talking education about in a school or in a you know an education environment but like as a parent is like the responsibility falls on me and the responsibility falls on every parent listening right that they need to be not relying on the education system.
01:06:43.920 --> 01:06:52.960
They need to be educating and part of that education is like is by doing it yourself and I think you made a really good point a minute ago on social media thing.
01:06:53.039 --> 01:06:58.079
I remember you talking to me a while ago about like not bringing the phone into your bedroom like when you went to bed.
01:06:58.239 --> 01:07:16.079
I don't know if you still have highly successful with that but I like I'm what so one thing I've realized about myself in the last couple of years like I'm really really disciplined like I'm really disciplined when I want to do something I have like my routines now is like people like how can you follow that as like you just get into a habit and I'm like oh actually I'm really disciplined about doing it.
01:07:16.400 --> 01:07:38.480
I'm really disciplined now about not using social media about not watching like I said like TikTok videos etc but it's hard even for me to do that saying that is like it's hard like when I turn my phone on to YouTube I type in like football to quickly pull me away from the algorithm what I know it's going to show me because I know how easy is it to go down to football.
01:07:39.199 --> 01:07:52.800
Well I'm hoping eventually it will because I type football in enough but this is not a joke like I I do this to guide myself away from the algorithm it is hard to do that but and this is the thing I say is like it's hard it's not impossible.
01:07:52.960 --> 01:08:00.320
To be honest everybody knows this is bad for them I think anyone like people who listen to this podcast are pretty well educated.
01:08:00.559 --> 01:08:11.199
They all know that people around me our friends they all know that if you take your phone to bed and watch it just before you go to bed and you know it's bad like that's just on you.
01:08:11.280 --> 01:08:18.479
That is just discipline I think like the biggest thing about the ownership of this problem is big tech companies are not going to own it.
01:08:18.800 --> 01:08:26.800
Governments are not going to own it until like people rise up and make it a problem that is in the overton window right that is important enough.
01:08:27.039 --> 01:08:41.199
The one person who can take control of it is you yourself so if you agree with this critically think if you agree sorry if you agree with the concept of critical thinking and not getting down the rabbit hole with AI with answers with social media you're in control of that.
01:08:42.399 --> 01:08:56.640
Maybe in 10 years' time we're not in control of it but at the moment you are in control of it and to be honest like to some degree it's like take control of it like grow up and and and actually like take these actions yourself.
01:08:56.800 --> 01:09:02.560
If you don't care about it is different but if you think it's a really big issue like we can't wait for someone else to fix the problem.
01:09:02.880 --> 01:09:04.239
Yeah I agree with that.
01:09:04.479 --> 01:09:14.159
I think I think it does need I mean we despite our massive audience following us um I don't know if this has been talked about enough.
01:09:14.479 --> 01:09:18.239
Like 'cause what you just said there is quite inspirational to be honest.
01:09:18.479 --> 01:09:21.439
Um but most people probably don't hear that.
01:09:21.760 --> 01:09:23.439
Like who's talking about this stuff?
01:09:23.760 --> 01:09:26.720
Who like how much is it getting talked about really?
01:09:27.039 --> 01:09:47.520
Because I you know you have conversations around the dinner table whatever like I've I I know that some of these things are becoming more prevalent now but but social media is a good example right I don't think that the real impact's gonna happen until governments start banning it and saying kids under a certain age are not allowed to have it because it's bad for their brains and stuff like that.
01:09:47.680 --> 01:09:48.800
And that's great.
01:09:50.800 --> 01:09:57.840
But I do think it's wishful thinking to be like everybody should just get disciplined and and do it and sort yourselves out.
01:09:58.159 --> 01:10:00.159
Because that's it won't happen.
01:10:00.319 --> 01:10:00.479
Yeah.
01:10:00.720 --> 01:10:12.800
But what I'm saying is like for people who are listening to this people who listen to this probably take listen to this episode and are like I want to know about critical thinking is like if you're waiting around for someone else to fix it at a societal level you're right.
01:10:12.960 --> 01:10:29.840
And if we don't fix it at a societal level it doesn't matter if our kids can kick think critically if the whole rest of the world is full of like everyone in a position of authority can't right so we need to solve it as a societal level but what I'm saying is now the things that you can do is like don't use AI to make every decision.
01:10:30.000 --> 01:10:33.760
Use it to verify things and use it in a challenging way.
01:10:34.079 --> 01:10:53.119
Don't spend all your time looking at social media understand that by doing it you are literally we like literally rewiring your brain literally rewiring your brain and how do you rewire it back well you need to go and do the other stuff that you're not doing now like reading long articles watching films from start to finish reading a whole book like that's the only way to do it.
01:10:53.439 --> 01:11:08.159
Yeah I'm gonna go and read some of these books about critical thinking Plato's book I'm not I'm gonna read I can't do Plato again because I because I I found his the way he argues gets quite well reading a whole book of it is like quite hard work to be honest.
01:11:08.560 --> 01:11:11.039
Because of the way they argue things and it's A plus B.
01:11:11.359 --> 01:11:14.079
Just put it into chat GPT and get it to summarise it.
01:11:14.720 --> 01:11:18.479
I might give it another go after I've got to notebook LM and get it to make you a podcast?
01:11:18.800 --> 01:11:24.720
One thing I was gonna ask is like we obviously haven't evolved our brains that much in the last couple of thousand years.
01:11:25.199 --> 01:11:35.359
Like were the Greeks just like super smart and ahead of their time or were they or actually was it just three or four of them and everybody else was just getting on with regular life?
01:11:35.680 --> 01:11:38.479
Yeah I I I often think things like this.
01:11:38.560 --> 01:11:51.520
So so one thing that I said like in the last couple of years is like as I became a a Christian and I I haven't read the Bible start to finish but the more I read of the Bible the more I'm like they actually already knew all this.
01:11:51.840 --> 01:12:01.920
It's like when you look back at historical text and I'm talking about the Bible here as like not not from a religious point of view but just as a like incredible stuff.
01:12:02.159 --> 01:12:03.680
Like they'd worked it all out.
01:12:04.000 --> 01:12:10.640
Like I used to think the story of Adam and Eve was one of the books in the Bible I was like I don't really like understand it's like oh so so what?
01:12:10.800 --> 01:12:20.079
So then a snake came along and then they an apple and like what's that about actually like all of human behavior and sin is all summarized in about five pages.
01:12:20.239 --> 01:12:20.560
Yeah.
01:12:20.720 --> 01:12:36.079
So I think you're probably right that like the Greeks did have it figured out because maybe and then like the Egyptians you know like some of the technologies I know we're going off track but some of the technologies then like a lot of this stuff was figured out and it's like it feels like in some ways we haven't really moved on from it.
01:12:36.800 --> 01:12:38.399
In fact we've in some ways moved backwards.
01:12:38.720 --> 01:12:57.840
Well on the subject of this podcast I don't think we have yeah I think more people were critically thinking or possibly more people were critically thinking back then or so maybe because they were not exposed to so much and and is this the problem exposed to so many different bits of information that our brains just are not able to think critically.
01:12:58.319 --> 01:12:59.920
Not really designed to be able to cope with it.
01:13:01.359 --> 01:13:04.319
I mean because you that I suppose that's my point, right?
01:13:04.479 --> 01:13:10.560
All the things we're talking about now we you could have philosophi philosophized about two thousand years ago.
01:13:11.039 --> 01:13:19.760
We could I mean we couldn't have had a podcast because they didn't exist but that but you could AI or social media but but the the fundamentals are the same.
01:13:20.079 --> 01:13:34.960
But if you okay to put it a different way, if you could bring Socrates or Plato forward to now and have this conversation with them and explain to them what these things are, give them a bit of context they'd they they would they'd be they'd be able to explain it all to us.
01:13:35.920 --> 01:13:39.359
They'd know what the answer is they'd they'd understand it or they'd get it.
01:13:39.760 --> 01:13:44.640
We haven't moved on in that time and I think that we're in I suppose that's the whole point of this episode, right?
01:13:44.720 --> 01:13:56.159
We're in if we don't start to worry about these things and do you know it's not it's not just critical thinking, it's taking yourself away from screens and and all the rest of it and all the things we just talked about.
01:13:56.319 --> 01:13:59.279
But if we don't start doing some of this stuff we probably are going to go backwards.
01:13:59.520 --> 01:14:01.439
And we maybe we will have smaller brains.
01:14:02.159 --> 01:14:18.960
I would just go back this because I don't think we'd plan this point at the start of this episode but when we we talked about this very very early on in this episode which is the whole idea with video because I I think that's that's the thing here is like the critical thinking thing.
01:14:19.039 --> 01:14:33.279
I I I I just I think the poster child for it is sort of like deep fakes and not knowing not knowing what you see whether it's real or not is bringing it back to this thing that the problem the fundamental issue is no different from what it was thousands of years ago.
01:14:33.439 --> 01:14:43.439
In fact there's only been a small period of time which is the time in which video was generally available which is what less than a hundred years.
01:14:43.680 --> 01:14:48.000
Well actually it's not just video because originally it was cinema then there was broadcast TV.
01:14:48.319 --> 01:15:01.439
I think what we're talking about here is broadcast TV because cinema stuff was just all so you're talking about broadcast TV seventy years.
01:15:01.920 --> 01:15:13.600
So so before that you had what was written down was the majority of opinion that people would make right and then we had a period where we had video and now we've gone back to where we were 70 years ago.
01:15:14.000 --> 01:15:26.000
So fundamentally the critical thinking problem is the same problem as we've had through history as long as we are able to shut ourselves off from well having too much information.
01:15:26.399 --> 01:15:28.319
That's the difference now that's the difference now.
01:15:28.479 --> 01:15:34.399
Back like 70 years if you rewind time 70 years we didn't have anywhere near the volume of information.
01:15:34.560 --> 01:15:34.880
Yeah.
01:15:35.199 --> 01:15:40.800
Um and so prob to be honest probably you just read the paper and went fair enough.
01:15:41.920 --> 01:15:48.720
Now we've we've we've lost the ability to validate some of these things but the information's still all there.
01:15:50.479 --> 01:15:54.319
The issue is actually not critical thinking ignore everything for the last hour and ten minutes.
01:15:54.640 --> 01:15:56.000
The problem is just too much information.
01:15:56.239 --> 01:16:00.720
Well yeah that's if you're interested in that go back to our episode from a year and a half ago on information.
01:16:01.439 --> 01:16:09.279
Sorted well that was fun um I don't know if we got to the answer that we thought but that's always uh what's fun with these deep dives.
01:16:09.359 --> 01:16:16.319
So um that's also quite fitting given the episodes about critical critical thinking and not necessarily having the answer.
01:16:16.560 --> 01:16:16.960
Yeah.
01:16:17.359 --> 01:16:17.760
Cool.
01:16:17.920 --> 01:20:10.880
I hope you enjoyed it and thank you for uh for listening through and um have a good summer critical thinking screen home is gonna screw some last game's consensus and a cage for 50 versions of the very same page double drum being a dog on cruise last year dopamine nothing left running with a pen with the paper take the train on the green following I'm two thousand years ago in a dusty town they were asking the same questions tryna lay it down it's not in the machine it's in the space between the doll asking how you know if you were on inside and do you know put the phone on the table turn the screen to the wood read a long form story like you know you should think about thinking Yeah