Note: Voice-to-text transcriptions are about 90% accurate.
Scott Allen 0:00
Today on Phronesis I'm excited to introduce listeners to Jeannie Forray and she is a Professor of Management at Western New England University. She's the soon-to-be-former co-editor of the Journal of Management Education. And she's the founding co-editor of the Management Teaching Review. She has taught in New Zealand as a visiting scholar. And she currently serves as the president of the faculty senate since 2019, at Western New England University. So you did that time that? Well, Jeannie?
Jeannie Forray 0:37
Everything kind of ends at the same time. So now I'm in the well, what am I gonna do with my time now?
Scott Allen 0:48
Well, let's talk about that. Let's talk about that. I think we were having a little bit of dialogue ahead of the show today. And you were talking about the notion of letting go. I'm intrigued, I'm really intrigued because you are at this precipice where there are a few different things, and you just mentioned it. Okay, what's the next iteration?
Jeannie Forray 1:09
Right?
Scott Allen 1:10
So how are you thinking about it right now?
Jeannie Forray 1:12
Well, for me, letting go is a learned skill. We don't really talk about that a lot. When we talk about impact or making a difference. I think that's something that all of us bring to our, our lives our work, our identity is, you know, how can I leave the world better than I found it and whatever that world might be, at any given time. And I think that we don't always think about what the leaving looks like. And you know, for some of us, that's, that's a painful thing because we equate it with kind of death, you know, we're leaving, and so a part of our lives has died or, or we have died. And yet, I have found through my own lived experience, that letting go is as important to the act of leadership or having made a contribution, than maybe the contribution itself, where it certainly is important to me, that I let other people take on the mantle of leadership that I don't second guess them. I was just having a...I teach a doctoral class for Vanderbilt University on leadership that Chris Quinn Trank, who you know, I'm sure, very well from her work in management, education, and leadership. The case that we were talking about this past week was Michelle Rhee, and the DC public schools and her experience there and some of the dynamics of her leadership and the leadership within that context. And at the end of class, we had talked a lot about what the circumstances were and what she did, and whether she was a transactional, a transformational leader, and the building the description of the experience through the theoretical lenses that the students are working with. And someone said, "Well, she wasn't really an effective leader, because everything has gone back to where it was before." Or, you know, many of her changes didn't stick. I don't know that that's a good measure of success, or is it you know, we talked a bit about is that an effective measure of success, then it got me thinking a lot about how we've transitioned our sense of accomplishment to some form of legacy or things, you know, things that we've left behind. And I'm just not sure that that's healthy, on the one hand, for those of us who have the opportunity to lead in organizations or have a leadership role, I guess, is even more comfortable to me, but also that it doesn't empower those who come after us to make the decisions that are right at the time. And so some things don't stick. And some things aren't legacy or inherited excellence that some previous individual or group of individuals, individuals pursued.
Scott Allen 4:17
I think that's a really interesting question. The whole notion of Were you a successful leader, if you didn't achieve the results, so to speak, I mean, we can look to examples in athletics where I know I'm in Cleveland, Ohio, and before this year, at least, if you didn't have a winning season in Cleveland, Ohio, as the football coach, you were now you weren't used to that in New England. I know that.
Jeannie Forray 4:39
Oh, no, no, no, no, we have no sense of that. Seven Super Bowl rings seven just seven Super Bowl rings.
Scott Allen 4:46
Exactly. Exactly. Being so close to the city of champions, I guess. But you aren't gonna exist for a long time you're going to be gone. But is that a good measurement is that a good indicator of an individual's leadership? It's a fascinating question...
Jeannie Forray 5:02
Right...We measure success, the universal way. We measure success through metrics, and we become even more attuned, particularly in higher education and in business and management education, we now have an impact, what is our impact? And it's not just the number of publications that we have now it's the other things that represent our excellence through others, or how many of the students in my institution or your institution got jobs right out of university? Are we impacting, are we providing success as a pathway to our students without really recognizing all the various ways in which our institutions, the people we work with the students that we have, are managing and creating their own visions of success in ways that we really don't have an impact and couldn't possibly have won or expect to have won?
Scott Allen 6:08
Yeah, we couldn't even track some of those metrics, it would be impossible to do so. So what else are you thinking about with this notion of kind of letting go, what else comes to mind?
Jeannie Forray 6:18
I think, for me, as I mentioned earlier, is sort of a learned. It's not something we generally gravitate to, you know when I remember being president of Management & Organizational Behavior Teaching Society (MOBTS), the teaching society that we're both involved with, and I thought, oh, three years is such a long time, I'm going to be able to do so much good stuff. And we did, we did a lot of really good things. And we started some new things. And we reached out and we create, you know, we're very innovative and collaborative on the board. And at the end of three years, I transitioned off, and I want to say maybe 75% of the things that had been developed. While I was president, kind of didn't go anywhere, you know, people didn't pick them up. And so I realized two things from that experience. One is if you don't institutionalize things, they don't stick. And institutionalizing is a different aspect of leadership than innovating. So if you do have a lot of time, you can innovate and institutionalize. But again, you know, that the environment changes. So I guess, letting go means being comfortable with seeing the things that you've done, either whether or flourish, as the case may be to recognize that that's part of the life cycle of organizations and organizing and that you as an individual can look back and feel proud of the work that you did, and that the work that you did with others can certainly no one leads in a forest by themselves, and that others are doing what they think is right, given the context and circumstances that they're in and sometimes, you know, letting go means sitting on your hands, and keeping your mouth closed. Which I've also learned is part of that process as well.
Scott Allen 8:25
So hard to do. It's hard to do,
Jeannie Forray 8:28
Yeah, and it's so hard to do. But you know, it's always been Caesar butter. And, and, and it's also in some ways a relief, at least for me to say, okay, you know, I did, you know, with Kathy, we have developed things for the journal, we have done things differently than prior editors. And we've tried the best we can to continue the tradition, the ethos of JME, while also creating some new opportunities for the journal. And I can look back on that, and I know Kathy looks back on it, and we're, you know, we're proud of ourselves, we, we feel good about what we've done together, and it's now somebody else's turn will soon be somebody else's turn. And I think we don't spend enough time theorizing and leadership about the somebody else's turn transition, the opportunities, we say that leaders are mentors, but sometimes we have to learn how to step back, our children grow up, our colleagues grow more mature organizations shift and change if we leave the leadership position, and many of us do cycle through, particularly in academia, then we need to pay a little more attention to what that looks like. I think when we when we think about leadership and the dynamics of practical wisdom for leaders....I've heard of that...somewhere!
Scott Allen 10:04
So this is really interesting because I read a wonderful conversation last summer with Susan Murphy, Susan's at the University of Edinburgh. She was at Claremont McKenna before that she is studying leader development kind of across the lifespan. So infant child through the stages we're speaking of, but the stages we're speaking of, I think you're exactly spot on. I don't know that much has been done about this space, this phase about how to how to enact this phase with a sense of grace. And in a way that to your point, made me institutionalize it may not, but it for sure, mentors and develops and props up as much as possible the next generation to be as successful as possible, while also in some ways I imagine, reinventing self, right? Yes,
Jeannie Forray 10:57
Yes, yes. Well, yes. I only have a few gray hairs. I'm you know, I really reinventing myself, which, you know, I like that term. I've always liked the term of reinventing because it makes those transitions. All that is possible. It's exciting. Yes. It's a little scary, too. But it speaks to me anyway. of it's not just letting go. It's finding a new path. And that's happily part of that transition, I think.
Scott Allen 11:33
Okay, so the big question, you're a full professor, you've served as the CO editor of a world-class journal, you've served as the president of MOBTS you've taught all around the world in incredible institutions. What are you looking to? What is that next adventure? What is the next iteration and version of Jeanie? I'm excited to hear this. Yeah, what's exciting? And what are you curious about? What are you thinking about? I'm really interested in it because, again, I said this to you before we started, you were very humble, but you have a very unique perspective on the Scholarship of Teaching and Learning, you have a very unique perspective that very, very few people have in the world. So it may be something having to do with academia. But it could be something else in your community, it could be something else that is just really that drawing your energy. Right?
Jeannie Forray 12:34
My lived experience has been one of serendipitous transitions. And what I mean by that is that I can look back at moments in my life and say, Oh, that was a transition point. Oh, that was a transition point. And they always led to an opportunity that I could not have foreseen if I had been thinking about what do I want to do next? Well, I can say, I have been thinking about what I want to do next. So much so that during the past year, in our COVID experience, one of the things that have transpired is that my ongoing desire to travel which started when I was a sophomore in college, some years ago, and has stayed with me, my desire to travel has not been nurtured at all this year. Yeah. You know, I came back from New Zealand early because of COVID. And have not been able to go anywhere physically in a really long time, which makes me kind of antsy. So I decided my university offers what's called a phased retirement program, which is a really bad acronym. It's actually a "retirement incentive program." And so
Scott Allen 14:02
That is terrible!
Jeannie Forray 14:03
Seriously, couldn't we just add "phased" in front of it, then it could be PR IP. But it is a three-year commitment to halftime teaching for those who qualify either due to age or longevity. And at the end of the three years, then you retire full time. I had not been planning to do that. I had been thinking about retiring but retiring full-time. And it became obvious to me that if I'm going to transition well out of academia post COVID, I'm going to need not go cold turkey. And that's gonna be that would be way too hard for me. But that at the same time, if I did a halftime appointment, then I could teach part of the year and also travel part of the year and do some other things that I've been wanting to do that I haven't been able to do this year. So part of it is that this sort of phased opportunity to think about what comes next. The other is Kathy and I refuse to be disconnected in any way. And so we've launched but haven't really had the time to devote any attention to it consulting platform called Seneca Consortium. And we're both targeting our own interests. Kathy's is working with authors and in others on manuscripts and research is mine is on career development and career coaching and mentorship. And so we're sort of combining those interests into the Seneca platform. And when I think when I when I go on halftime, then I'll have time to work to really begin to, to organize that that effort. Yeah, and, and travel and be with my grandchildren more as they continue to grow up. They insist on doing that. I think it's a rather positive thing. But yeah, so professionally, I think I will probably continue to be involved. I do some editing work with Jen Leigh, and Sarah Wright and I are the three co-editors of the teaching methods in business series for Edward Elgar, and we have, we have a volume, you each have volumes coming in multiple volumes coming out each year. And that's a lot of editing. So I think for me, the What will I do is complicated by I already do too much, and maybe, you know, working part-time. I won't feel quite so much that I work too much. But it's a joy, and I love it. And I'm so lucky to be in a position where I can do what I love pretty much all the time and the stuff that I don't love I can do if it doesn't know me too much.
Scott Allen 17:07
Tell me more. Tell me a little more about Seneca?
Jeannie Forray 17:10
Well, Kathy, and I got to thinking that we see a lot of leadership mentoring, you know, there are programs for academics, who want to move into administration or other leadership positions, but we don't really see an opportunity for institutions and individuals to do faculty development in a way that doesn't require a lot of resources. You know, you can have a Center for Teaching and Learning at a major institution, and it's hot, well funded, and faculty can use it or not use it, but it's internal to your institution. And so it doesn't really have a broad perspective on the field as a whole.
Scott Allen 17:55
Yes.
Jeannie Forray 17:55
So the only folks who do have those opportunities are the very lucky ones who have outstanding doctoral mentors, or early career mentors who make who use networks effectively. And then there are all the other people in the world who either don't know that how to do that or was institutions haven't organized the kind of faculty development that's good for individual faculty in terms of their career and academic development. And because we think we know everything and can do everything.
Scott Allen 18:36
And because you've been incredibly successful, you know a ton...
Jeannie Forray 18:44
We're not humble at all, we thought that you know, maybe we could make a difference by offering reasonably priced you know, nothing, not, I don't want to cast aspersions on very expensive consulting firms, because they earned their money. They earned their money, but not everyone can afford them, and particularly small institutions that don't have resources to fund full-on Center for Teaching and Learning, you know, maybe doing workshops, and those are important and I encourage faculty to go to them because they tend to learn something, but the one on one is oftentimes just not available not present. So that's what we decided we would do. And we have done that we have been out under the Seneca umbrella to conduct workshops for organizations that don't have their own infrastructure, or we've been invited to give talks about a particular area of our expertise. I do some one-on-one coaching. Kathy will when she's no longer a journal editor, do some one-on-one coaching in terms of manuscript development, in those kinds of things. We have been very aware and sensitive to our editorial involvement, and we really do feel that it was appropriate for us to do much beyond the minimum in terms of speaking and consulting until we're no longer journal editors. Because when we go and talk, we are oftentimes representing JME. We don't want those two worlds to conflict in any way.
Scott Allen 20:18
Yep. Jeannie, I love it. I love it. I mean, Kathy, and I don't think she mentioned Seneca. But we talked a little bit about this idea when I spoke with her. And I think there's such a need, there's such a need for individuals like myself who need that mentoring and that guidance, and that resource, quite frankly, and access to people with that expertise in that perspective. I mean, I think I think it's a wonderful idea. I really do. I think you can create really cool communities. And, of course, do the one-on-one coaching. But even if there was periodic, I mean, I just imagine you you're a history major as an undergrad at Berkeley. I was right. So I imagine you're somewhere in the world, zooming in, right? In your digital existence, and making a difference from Greece or wherever you are.
Jeannie Forray 21:10
I made a difference from New Zealand last year. And I've done that from Ireland and England and all kinds of interesting places. Yes!
Scott Allen 21:18
Exactly.
Jeannie Forray 21:22
I only connect, I only connect to people who like to travel!
Scott Allen 21:28
Well, I think it's brilliant. Because I think again, that letting go of this yet starting something that is going to make such a difference in people's lives. And again, you have that wisdom. I think it's wonderful. I really do.
Jeannie Forray 21:44
Thanks. Thanks. We're excited. It's not Seneca the philosopher. Actually, it's Seneca Falls. We are acknowledging those who came before us, and who have created a path that we are now privileged to walk on. So yeah...
Scott Allen 22:06
I love it. Before we wind down, what's one other thing you're thinking about right now, it could be something through the lens of your role as a journal editor, it could be something through the lens of your role as faculty president of the faculty senate could be anything.
Jeannie Forray 22:26
Now you've asked me an open-ended question. And anyone who knows me well knows that my interests are eclectic. I'm interested in a lot of different things. I've been thinking a lot about the discourse around impact. And I've been thinking a lot about the new discourse of agility and resilience and the ways in which those terms, both create opportunities and constrain them at the same time.
Scott Allen 22:59
Say more.
Jeannie Forray 23:01
Okay, so you mentioned that I went to Berkeley. And so I think, my title way, which
Scott Allen 23:10
By the way...it has the best bakery ever, near campus right there. I'm gonna forget the name of the bakery. Now that I started talking about it.
Jeannie Forray 23:18
Oh, please.
Scott Allen 23:20
It's been such a long time since I've been there. Oh, okay. You haven't been there recently.
Jeannie Forray 23:24
No. Not since I tried to get one of my sons to go there for school and he went,
Scott Allen 23:30
You know what? I think the bakery is called for a no, yes, I am gonna look it up right now. Okay. The bakery is called for a Fournee. So, Jeanie, the last time I was on that campus, we were traveling with my children and my wife and we were traveling, we're doing this three-week adventure of California. So we actually went to Fournee bakery and picked up a bunch of baked goods, and then went and sat on campus near the School of Business. It's a magical place
Jeannie Forray 24:01
It's a glorious place. It really is a glorious place. And when I was there, it was very politically active. I, you know, it was the early 70s, which was a time but the thing that I think Berkeley represents in the stream of my life, or the thing that connects My life is, I tend to try to look at the benefits and the drawbacks of things. You know, my father used to challenge us at our dinner table to you know, he would play he would ask us a question, and we would answer it, and then he would argue the opposite. It didn't matter what it was, you know, or what he truly believed about it. He wanted us to develop critical thinking skills, which is what we've labeled those things now. And so I grew up in that environment and was educated in that environment, and learned that you cannot take everything at face value. You have to think about the context in which it is occurring. So I think about context a lot. And you know, where are we in this historical moment that brings us from, you know, the accountability phase of some of the prior administrations in the US. And to where we are now, which is a value-added higher education in the United States is extremely expensive, it has become not what it was intended to be, which was a leveling playing field for large swaths of society. Because it is expensive, even public institutions are expensive, and all institutions are giving a lot of financial aid, which is putting many folks in debt. So the model is problematic. And here we are now at this moment saying, okay, not only do we care about impact, you know, what is the result? What is the outcome of your education in measurable terms? How do you measure, I'm a good citizen, or I've graduated, I feel confident in my ability to move along the path of adulthood, or professional life, you know, those are not measurable things. My measurable things are, did I get a job? Did I move up in my career, and those are metrics, and so we do measure them. So impact, but that also means that we're now narrowing, what the possibilities are for the outcomes to be, yeah, for the experience, and for us, as educators to nurture things that can't be measured. So you know, those things trouble me. And in the same way, yes, we do need to be agile, and adaptive. Because we live in a very complex and complicated world. That's really not any different than any other time. We've always needed it. adaptability and understanding complexity, or at least how we move through it without losing our path, or we're where we hope we are going or who we are. So I don't know, how I will engage with those things. I tend to conversationally develop my own thinking, that's one of my modes of learning, even when I'm learning about myself, and in that way, I don't know what I mean, until I see what I've said. But I expect I will be involved in some way in continuing to write in those areas to the extent that I continue to write and that's, there's a big question mark around that, too. So you know, it should, should people who've retired from academia continue to write well, of course, some of them should, but not all of them have to, you know, that's what I was like.
Scott Allen 27:58
What else are you watching right now or listening to or reading that has caught your attention lately? Doesn't have to be about management education. We couldn't be anything. What's caught your attention lately?
Jeannie Forray 28:12
What caught my attention? Well, I am a huge movie and television person, I came out of the entertainment industry. Before I went into academia, I spent a number of years in and around television production and post-production and, and I grew up in Los Angeles. So between those two things, it's like, you know, take me to the movies! So I've been binge-watching a lot of anything that I can find on TV. I love Queens Gambit. I love Schitt's Creek. Yeah, took a little while to get into it. But once I got into it was super fun. I'm watching The Expanse, which is a good thing too. Because I like science fiction have always like science fiction in all of its manifestations. I have not been listening to podcasts as much as I was before COVID only because I'm not in my car as much. I mean, I was a huge Pod Save America fan until my listening time was restricted. So that's what I'm, that's what I'm watching and not listening to. And in my reading, when I'm not reading for work, and I you know, I have very definite boundaries around that, at least in my own mind, not necessarily in my own practice, but definitely in my mind. I read junk, complete little junk, historical romance novels, you know, contemporary fiction, whatever, detective stories, mystery stories, but primarily historical romance novels. I don't know. You know, I mean, you got to have a place for that stuff somewhere in your brain. And it's as good as other forms of mindless entertainment?
Scott Allen 30:03
Yeah, yeah. We just finished The Flight Attendant on HBO max.
Jeannie Forray 30:11
I've seen it. haven't watched it.
Scott Allen 30:12
Yeah, yeah. And The Undoing, which was Hugh Grant and Nicole Kidman. Oh, right. And have not watched The Expanse. But it looks like it's good science fiction.
Jeannie Forray 30:26
It is. I enjoy it. And, and because I'm an organization person, I actually think about, you know, the organizational dynamics, the human dynamics in it and everything. So yeah, I mean, we can't completely take me out of that area. But yeah, it's good. And someday we'll be able to go into a theater and listen to all of the great plays and musicals and things that we're not able to do right now. I have to say, I had seen Hamilton live and then saw Hamilton the theatrical that that was produced, and that they did an amazing job. There's a London theater that does a live broadcast as well. Now, the National Theatre live, sorry, National Theatre Live, which I was actually a big fan of before COVID. They do awesome, awesome productions. So the world of entertainment has been changing in such interesting ways. Maybe I'll go back in the entertainment industry,
Scott Allen 31:32
Okay, so I have one recommendation for you if you have a chance. We just finished this last weekend. It's a, it's a play. And it's now on Hulu. And it's called In and of Itself.
Jeannie Forray 31:46
Now I have to write this down.
Scott Allen 31:48
A lot of our conversation has been around identities. And please, please, please Jeanie, watch this. And then send me a note about your thoughts
Jeannie Forray 31:57
I will.
Scott Allen 32:00
So in and of itself, it's one of the most powerful things I've watched recently. And we will stop there will leave everyone on kind of a cliffhanger as to whether or not you ever watch it.
Jeannie Forray 32:13
We'll put a little note, you can put a little note on the website. Right. And she watched it and this is what she thought.
Scott Allen 32:20
I will do that. Okay, Jeannie, thank you so much for being with us. We really, really appreciate it, and thanks for the good work you do. And I'm excited to see and learn more about Seneca and excited to learn more about your next great adventure.
Jeannie Forray 32:37
Thank you, Scott. It's been it's my great pleasure. Thanks so much.
Scott Allen 32:42
Okay, be well.
Jeannie Forray 32:44
You too.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Scott Allen 0:00
Today on Phronesis I'm excited to introduce listeners to Jeannie Forray and she is a Professor of Management at Western New England University. She's the soon-to-be-former co-editor of the Journal of Management Education. And she's the founding co-editor of the Management Teaching Review. She has taught in New Zealand as a visiting scholar. And she currently serves as the president of the faculty senate since 2019, at Western New England University. So you did that time that? Well, Jeannie?
Jeannie Forray 0:37
Everything kind of ends at the same time. So now I'm in the well, what am I gonna do with my time now?
Scott Allen 0:48
Well, let's talk about that. Let's talk about that. I think we were having a little bit of dialogue ahead of the show today. And you were talking about the notion of letting go. I'm intrigued, I'm really intrigued because you are at this precipice where there are a few different things, and you just mentioned it. Okay, what's the next iteration?
Jeannie Forray 1:09
Right?
Scott Allen 1:10
So how are you thinking about it right now?
Jeannie Forray 1:12
Well, for me, letting go is a learned skill. We don't really talk about that a lot. When we talk about impact or making a difference. I think that's something that all of us bring to our, our lives our work, our identity is, you know, how can I leave the world better than I found it and whatever that world might be, at any given time. And I think that we don't always think about what the leaving looks like. And you know, for some of us, that's, that's a painful thing because we equate it with kind of death, you know, we're leaving, and so a part of our lives has died or, or we have died. And yet, I have found through my own lived experience, that letting go is as important to the act of leadership or having made a contribution, than maybe the contribution itself, where it certainly is important to me, that I let other people take on the mantle of leadership that I don't second guess them. I was just having a...I teach a doctoral class for Vanderbilt University on leadership that Chris Quinn Trank, who you know, I'm sure, very well from her work in management, education, and leadership. The case that we were talking about this past week was Michelle Rhee, and the DC public schools and her experience there and some of the dynamics of her leadership and the leadership within that context. And at the end of class, we had talked a lot about what the circumstances were and what she did, and whether she was a transactional, a transformational leader, and the building the description of the experience through the theoretical lenses that the students are working with. And someone said, "Well, she wasn't really an effective leader, because everything has gone back to where it was before." Or, you know, many of her changes didn't stick. I don't know that that's a good measure of success, or is it you know, we talked a bit about is that an effective measure of success, then it got me thinking a lot about how we've transitioned our sense of accomplishment to some form of legacy or things, you know, things that we've left behind. And I'm just not sure that that's healthy, on the one hand, for those of us who have the opportunity to lead in organizations or have a leadership role, I guess, is even more comfortable to me, but also that it doesn't empower those who come after us to make the decisions that are right at the time. And so some things don't stick. And some things aren't legacy or inherited excellence that some previous individual or group of individuals, individuals pursued.
Scott Allen 4:17
I think that's a really interesting question. The whole notion of Were you a successful leader, if you didn't achieve the results, so to speak, I mean, we can look to examples in athletics where I know I'm in Cleveland, Ohio, and before this year, at least, if you didn't have a winning season in Cleveland, Ohio, as the football coach, you were now you weren't used to that in New England. I know that.
Jeannie Forray 4:39
Oh, no, no, no, no, we have no sense of that. Seven Super Bowl rings seven just seven Super Bowl rings.
Scott Allen 4:46
Exactly. Exactly. Being so close to the city of champions, I guess. But you aren't gonna exist for a long time you're going to be gone. But is that a good measurement is that a good indicator of an individual's leadership? It's a fascinating question...
Jeannie Forray 5:02
Right...We measure success, the universal way. We measure success through metrics, and we become even more attuned, particularly in higher education and in business and management education, we now have an impact, what is our impact? And it's not just the number of publications that we have now it's the other things that represent our excellence through others, or how many of the students in my institution or your institution got jobs right out of university? Are we impacting, are we providing success as a pathway to our students without really recognizing all the various ways in which our institutions, the people we work with the students that we have, are managing and creating their own visions of success in ways that we really don't have an impact and couldn't possibly have won or expect to have won?
Scott Allen 6:08
Yeah, we couldn't even track some of those metrics, it would be impossible to do so. So what else are you thinking about with this notion of kind of letting go, what else comes to mind?
Jeannie Forray 6:18
I think, for me, as I mentioned earlier, is sort of a learned. It's not something we generally gravitate to, you know when I remember being president of Management & Organizational Behavior Teaching Society (MOBTS), the teaching society that we're both involved with, and I thought, oh, three years is such a long time, I'm going to be able to do so much good stuff. And we did, we did a lot of really good things. And we started some new things. And we reached out and we create, you know, we're very innovative and collaborative on the board. And at the end of three years, I transitioned off, and I want to say maybe 75% of the things that had been developed. While I was president, kind of didn't go anywhere, you know, people didn't pick them up. And so I realized two things from that experience. One is if you don't institutionalize things, they don't stick. And institutionalizing is a different aspect of leadership than innovating. So if you do have a lot of time, you can innovate and institutionalize. But again, you know, that the environment changes. So I guess, letting go means being comfortable with seeing the things that you've done, either whether or flourish, as the case may be to recognize that that's part of the life cycle of organizations and organizing and that you as an individual can look back and feel proud of the work that you did, and that the work that you did with others can certainly no one leads in a forest by themselves, and that others are doing what they think is right, given the context and circumstances that they're in and sometimes, you know, letting go means sitting on your hands, and keeping your mouth closed. Which I've also learned is part of that process as well.
Scott Allen 8:25
So hard to do. It's hard to do,
Jeannie Forray 8:28
Yeah, and it's so hard to do. But you know, it's always been Caesar butter. And, and, and it's also in some ways a relief, at least for me to say, okay, you know, I did, you know, with Kathy, we have developed things for the journal, we have done things differently than prior editors. And we've tried the best we can to continue the tradition, the ethos of JME, while also creating some new opportunities for the journal. And I can look back on that, and I know Kathy looks back on it, and we're, you know, we're proud of ourselves, we, we feel good about what we've done together, and it's now somebody else's turn will soon be somebody else's turn. And I think we don't spend enough time theorizing and leadership about the somebody else's turn transition, the opportunities, we say that leaders are mentors, but sometimes we have to learn how to step back, our children grow up, our colleagues grow more mature organizations shift and change if we leave the leadership position, and many of us do cycle through, particularly in academia, then we need to pay a little more attention to what that looks like. I think when we when we think about leadership and the dynamics of practical wisdom for leaders....I've heard of that...somewhere!
Scott Allen 10:04
So this is really interesting because I read a wonderful conversation last summer with Susan Murphy, Susan's at the University of Edinburgh. She was at Claremont McKenna before that she is studying leader development kind of across the lifespan. So infant child through the stages we're speaking of, but the stages we're speaking of, I think you're exactly spot on. I don't know that much has been done about this space, this phase about how to how to enact this phase with a sense of grace. And in a way that to your point, made me institutionalize it may not, but it for sure, mentors and develops and props up as much as possible the next generation to be as successful as possible, while also in some ways I imagine, reinventing self, right? Yes,
Jeannie Forray 10:57
Yes, yes. Well, yes. I only have a few gray hairs. I'm you know, I really reinventing myself, which, you know, I like that term. I've always liked the term of reinventing because it makes those transitions. All that is possible. It's exciting. Yes. It's a little scary, too. But it speaks to me anyway. of it's not just letting go. It's finding a new path. And that's happily part of that transition, I think.
Scott Allen 11:33
Okay, so the big question, you're a full professor, you've served as the CO editor of a world-class journal, you've served as the president of MOBTS you've taught all around the world in incredible institutions. What are you looking to? What is that next adventure? What is the next iteration and version of Jeanie? I'm excited to hear this. Yeah, what's exciting? And what are you curious about? What are you thinking about? I'm really interested in it because, again, I said this to you before we started, you were very humble, but you have a very unique perspective on the Scholarship of Teaching and Learning, you have a very unique perspective that very, very few people have in the world. So it may be something having to do with academia. But it could be something else in your community, it could be something else that is just really that drawing your energy. Right?
Jeannie Forray 12:34
My lived experience has been one of serendipitous transitions. And what I mean by that is that I can look back at moments in my life and say, Oh, that was a transition point. Oh, that was a transition point. And they always led to an opportunity that I could not have foreseen if I had been thinking about what do I want to do next? Well, I can say, I have been thinking about what I want to do next. So much so that during the past year, in our COVID experience, one of the things that have transpired is that my ongoing desire to travel which started when I was a sophomore in college, some years ago, and has stayed with me, my desire to travel has not been nurtured at all this year. Yeah. You know, I came back from New Zealand early because of COVID. And have not been able to go anywhere physically in a really long time, which makes me kind of antsy. So I decided my university offers what's called a phased retirement program, which is a really bad acronym. It's actually a "retirement incentive program." And so
Scott Allen 14:02
That is terrible!
Jeannie Forray 14:03
Seriously, couldn't we just add "phased" in front of it, then it could be PR IP. But it is a three-year commitment to halftime teaching for those who qualify either due to age or longevity. And at the end of the three years, then you retire full time. I had not been planning to do that. I had been thinking about retiring but retiring full-time. And it became obvious to me that if I'm going to transition well out of academia post COVID, I'm going to need not go cold turkey. And that's gonna be that would be way too hard for me. But that at the same time, if I did a halftime appointment, then I could teach part of the year and also travel part of the year and do some other things that I've been wanting to do that I haven't been able to do this year. So part of it is that this sort of phased opportunity to think about what comes next. The other is Kathy and I refuse to be disconnected in any way. And so we've launched but haven't really had the time to devote any attention to it consulting platform called Seneca Consortium. And we're both targeting our own interests. Kathy's is working with authors and in others on manuscripts and research is mine is on career development and career coaching and mentorship. And so we're sort of combining those interests into the Seneca platform. And when I think when I when I go on halftime, then I'll have time to work to really begin to, to organize that that effort. Yeah, and, and travel and be with my grandchildren more as they continue to grow up. They insist on doing that. I think it's a rather positive thing. But yeah, so professionally, I think I will probably continue to be involved. I do some editing work with Jen Leigh, and Sarah Wright and I are the three co-editors of the teaching methods in business series for Edward Elgar, and we have, we have a volume, you each have volumes coming in multiple volumes coming out each year. And that's a lot of editing. So I think for me, the What will I do is complicated by I already do too much, and maybe, you know, working part-time. I won't feel quite so much that I work too much. But it's a joy, and I love it. And I'm so lucky to be in a position where I can do what I love pretty much all the time and the stuff that I don't love I can do if it doesn't know me too much.
Scott Allen 17:07
Tell me more. Tell me a little more about Seneca?
Jeannie Forray 17:10
Well, Kathy, and I got to thinking that we see a lot of leadership mentoring, you know, there are programs for academics, who want to move into administration or other leadership positions, but we don't really see an opportunity for institutions and individuals to do faculty development in a way that doesn't require a lot of resources. You know, you can have a Center for Teaching and Learning at a major institution, and it's hot, well funded, and faculty can use it or not use it, but it's internal to your institution. And so it doesn't really have a broad perspective on the field as a whole.
Scott Allen 17:55
Yes.
Jeannie Forray 17:55
So the only folks who do have those opportunities are the very lucky ones who have outstanding doctoral mentors, or early career mentors who make who use networks effectively. And then there are all the other people in the world who either don't know that how to do that or was institutions haven't organized the kind of faculty development that's good for individual faculty in terms of their career and academic development. And because we think we know everything and can do everything.
Scott Allen 18:36
And because you've been incredibly successful, you know a ton...
Jeannie Forray 18:44
We're not humble at all, we thought that you know, maybe we could make a difference by offering reasonably priced you know, nothing, not, I don't want to cast aspersions on very expensive consulting firms, because they earned their money. They earned their money, but not everyone can afford them, and particularly small institutions that don't have resources to fund full-on Center for Teaching and Learning, you know, maybe doing workshops, and those are important and I encourage faculty to go to them because they tend to learn something, but the one on one is oftentimes just not available not present. So that's what we decided we would do. And we have done that we have been out under the Seneca umbrella to conduct workshops for organizations that don't have their own infrastructure, or we've been invited to give talks about a particular area of our expertise. I do some one-on-one coaching. Kathy will when she's no longer a journal editor, do some one-on-one coaching in terms of manuscript development, in those kinds of things. We have been very aware and sensitive to our editorial involvement, and we really do feel that it was appropriate for us to do much beyond the minimum in terms of speaking and consulting until we're no longer journal editors. Because when we go and talk, we are oftentimes representing JME. We don't want those two worlds to conflict in any way.
Scott Allen 20:18
Yep. Jeannie, I love it. I love it. I mean, Kathy, and I don't think she mentioned Seneca. But we talked a little bit about this idea when I spoke with her. And I think there's such a need, there's such a need for individuals like myself who need that mentoring and that guidance, and that resource, quite frankly, and access to people with that expertise in that perspective. I mean, I think I think it's a wonderful idea. I really do. I think you can create really cool communities. And, of course, do the one-on-one coaching. But even if there was periodic, I mean, I just imagine you you're a history major as an undergrad at Berkeley. I was right. So I imagine you're somewhere in the world, zooming in, right? In your digital existence, and making a difference from Greece or wherever you are.
Jeannie Forray 21:10
I made a difference from New Zealand last year. And I've done that from Ireland and England and all kinds of interesting places. Yes!
Scott Allen 21:18
Exactly.
Jeannie Forray 21:22
I only connect, I only connect to people who like to travel!
Scott Allen 21:28
Well, I think it's brilliant. Because I think again, that letting go of this yet starting something that is going to make such a difference in people's lives. And again, you have that wisdom. I think it's wonderful. I really do.
Jeannie Forray 21:44
Thanks. Thanks. We're excited. It's not Seneca the philosopher. Actually, it's Seneca Falls. We are acknowledging those who came before us, and who have created a path that we are now privileged to walk on. So yeah...
Scott Allen 22:06
I love it. Before we wind down, what's one other thing you're thinking about right now, it could be something through the lens of your role as a journal editor, it could be something through the lens of your role as faculty president of the faculty senate could be anything.
Jeannie Forray 22:26
Now you've asked me an open-ended question. And anyone who knows me well knows that my interests are eclectic. I'm interested in a lot of different things. I've been thinking a lot about the discourse around impact. And I've been thinking a lot about the new discourse of agility and resilience and the ways in which those terms, both create opportunities and constrain them at the same time.
Scott Allen 22:59
Say more.
Jeannie Forray 23:01
Okay, so you mentioned that I went to Berkeley. And so I think, my title way, which
Scott Allen 23:10
By the way...it has the best bakery ever, near campus right there. I'm gonna forget the name of the bakery. Now that I started talking about it.
Jeannie Forray 23:18
Oh, please.
Scott Allen 23:20
It's been such a long time since I've been there. Oh, okay. You haven't been there recently.
Jeannie Forray 23:24
No. Not since I tried to get one of my sons to go there for school and he went,
Scott Allen 23:30
You know what? I think the bakery is called for a no, yes, I am gonna look it up right now. Okay. The bakery is called for a Fournee. So, Jeanie, the last time I was on that campus, we were traveling with my children and my wife and we were traveling, we're doing this three-week adventure of California. So we actually went to Fournee bakery and picked up a bunch of baked goods, and then went and sat on campus near the School of Business. It's a magical place
Jeannie Forray 24:01
It's a glorious place. It really is a glorious place. And when I was there, it was very politically active. I, you know, it was the early 70s, which was a time but the thing that I think Berkeley represents in the stream of my life, or the thing that connects My life is, I tend to try to look at the benefits and the drawbacks of things. You know, my father used to challenge us at our dinner table to you know, he would play he would ask us a question, and we would answer it, and then he would argue the opposite. It didn't matter what it was, you know, or what he truly believed about it. He wanted us to develop critical thinking skills, which is what we've labeled those things now. And so I grew up in that environment and was educated in that environment, and learned that you cannot take everything at face value. You have to think about the context in which it is occurring. So I think about context a lot. And you know, where are we in this historical moment that brings us from, you know, the accountability phase of some of the prior administrations in the US. And to where we are now, which is a value-added higher education in the United States is extremely expensive, it has become not what it was intended to be, which was a leveling playing field for large swaths of society. Because it is expensive, even public institutions are expensive, and all institutions are giving a lot of financial aid, which is putting many folks in debt. So the model is problematic. And here we are now at this moment saying, okay, not only do we care about impact, you know, what is the result? What is the outcome of your education in measurable terms? How do you measure, I'm a good citizen, or I've graduated, I feel confident in my ability to move along the path of adulthood, or professional life, you know, those are not measurable things. My measurable things are, did I get a job? Did I move up in my career, and those are metrics, and so we do measure them. So impact, but that also means that we're now narrowing, what the possibilities are for the outcomes to be, yeah, for the experience, and for us, as educators to nurture things that can't be measured. So you know, those things trouble me. And in the same way, yes, we do need to be agile, and adaptive. Because we live in a very complex and complicated world. That's really not any different than any other time. We've always needed it. adaptability and understanding complexity, or at least how we move through it without losing our path, or we're where we hope we are going or who we are. So I don't know, how I will engage with those things. I tend to conversationally develop my own thinking, that's one of my modes of learning, even when I'm learning about myself, and in that way, I don't know what I mean, until I see what I've said. But I expect I will be involved in some way in continuing to write in those areas to the extent that I continue to write and that's, there's a big question mark around that, too. So you know, it should, should people who've retired from academia continue to write well, of course, some of them should, but not all of them have to, you know, that's what I was like.
Scott Allen 27:58
What else are you watching right now or listening to or reading that has caught your attention lately? Doesn't have to be about management education. We couldn't be anything. What's caught your attention lately?
Jeannie Forray 28:12
What caught my attention? Well, I am a huge movie and television person, I came out of the entertainment industry. Before I went into academia, I spent a number of years in and around television production and post-production and, and I grew up in Los Angeles. So between those two things, it's like, you know, take me to the movies! So I've been binge-watching a lot of anything that I can find on TV. I love Queens Gambit. I love Schitt's Creek. Yeah, took a little while to get into it. But once I got into it was super fun. I'm watching The Expanse, which is a good thing too. Because I like science fiction have always like science fiction in all of its manifestations. I have not been listening to podcasts as much as I was before COVID only because I'm not in my car as much. I mean, I was a huge Pod Save America fan until my listening time was restricted. So that's what I'm, that's what I'm watching and not listening to. And in my reading, when I'm not reading for work, and I you know, I have very definite boundaries around that, at least in my own mind, not necessarily in my own practice, but definitely in my mind. I read junk, complete little junk, historical romance novels, you know, contemporary fiction, whatever, detective stories, mystery stories, but primarily historical romance novels. I don't know. You know, I mean, you got to have a place for that stuff somewhere in your brain. And it's as good as other forms of mindless entertainment?
Scott Allen 30:03
Yeah, yeah. We just finished The Flight Attendant on HBO max.
Jeannie Forray 30:11
I've seen it. haven't watched it.
Scott Allen 30:12
Yeah, yeah. And The Undoing, which was Hugh Grant and Nicole Kidman. Oh, right. And have not watched The Expanse. But it looks like it's good science fiction.
Jeannie Forray 30:26
It is. I enjoy it. And, and because I'm an organization person, I actually think about, you know, the organizational dynamics, the human dynamics in it and everything. So yeah, I mean, we can't completely take me out of that area. But yeah, it's good. And someday we'll be able to go into a theater and listen to all of the great plays and musicals and things that we're not able to do right now. I have to say, I had seen Hamilton live and then saw Hamilton the theatrical that that was produced, and that they did an amazing job. There's a London theater that does a live broadcast as well. Now, the National Theatre live, sorry, National Theatre Live, which I was actually a big fan of before COVID. They do awesome, awesome productions. So the world of entertainment has been changing in such interesting ways. Maybe I'll go back in the entertainment industry,
Scott Allen 31:32
Okay, so I have one recommendation for you if you have a chance. We just finished this last weekend. It's a, it's a play. And it's now on Hulu. And it's called In and of Itself.
Jeannie Forray 31:46
Now I have to write this down.
Scott Allen 31:48
A lot of our conversation has been around identities. And please, please, please Jeanie, watch this. And then send me a note about your thoughts
Jeannie Forray 31:57
I will.
Scott Allen 32:00
So in and of itself, it's one of the most powerful things I've watched recently. And we will stop there will leave everyone on kind of a cliffhanger as to whether or not you ever watch it.
Jeannie Forray 32:13
We'll put a little note, you can put a little note on the website. Right. And she watched it and this is what she thought.
Scott Allen 32:20
I will do that. Okay, Jeannie, thank you so much for being with us. We really, really appreciate it, and thanks for the good work you do. And I'm excited to see and learn more about Seneca and excited to learn more about your next great adventure.
Jeannie Forray 32:37
Thank you, Scott. It's been it's my great pleasure. Thanks so much.
Scott Allen 32:42
Okay, be well.
Jeannie Forray 32:44
You too.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
