WEBVTT
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Greetings and welcome to the Practical Matters Podcast, where we believe that making theology practical matters.
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I'm Kevin Saxton.
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This is Garrett Haywood.
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And it's our eighth episode.
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That's right.
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Sometimes I do go by KB Saxton for the record.
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It's true.
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Just like the rapper.
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Yes, like KB the rapper.
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Exactly.
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KB's a pretty good rapper, actually.
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Yes.
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In the Christian Christian rap world, he's very good.
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You know who else I like is uh no big deal.
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I've never heard of him, actually.
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It's not like the words no big deal.
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It's like no big D Y L or something, and it's all lowercase together.
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Anyways, pretty good Christian rapper.
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Christian rap, it is uh probably the best of the Christian um non-worship genres, I think.
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Is this your hot take already?
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No.
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At the top of the MC?
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No, I I think that was pretty objectively true.
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Okay.
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I I would probably agree with you, actually.
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Anyways, we are gonna talk about four things today.
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Two things that I have brought to the table and two things that you have brought to the table.
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I don't know what you've brought, you don't know what I've brought.
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And I'm just trying to stump you.
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Just kidding, that's not what I'm doing.
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Uh so you want to go first?
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Sure.
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Um yeah, uh, two more uh church-related topics for me today, which is uh no surprise, I suppose.
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But topic number one uh is denominations.
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And so I'd like to hear your thoughts.
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Uh I I guess a little bit on the history of denominations, but really more practically uh what denominations mean for the everyday Christian today, how to choose one, how to think of other denominations, what is the non-denom phenomenon?
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Uh because they all are using the same statement of faith and doing the same programs, they're a quasi-denomination, but um for the everyday Christian, how should they think about Protestant denominations?
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Yeah, that is that is the uh that's a good question.
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The um the non-denominational thing is kind of funny because they have become a denomination by being non-denominational.
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Um and there I I well I think there's I actually think in that camp there is there's like kind of two different things going there.
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I think there's one group that is just basically similar, non-denominational.
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Um they are essentially a denomination, although they claim non-denominational, that's a non-denominational denomination, if that makes sense.
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It does.
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And then I think there are some churches that really are just independent and like not truly non-denominational, it's just an independent church somewhere.
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Um, and it most likely that's a small church doing small church things, I would have to imagine.
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Excuse me.
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You know, I I I it's usually there's some sort of like some sort of like fringe belief, perhaps, or you know, something like that.
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I I don't know.
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But anyways, the denomination thing, um, first off, I I think the denominations are not a problem.
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Um I think sometimes people think, oh, in the Christian church, we can't even get it together because we have all these other denominations.
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I really don't think it's a problem.
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Um, and the reason I don't think it's a problem is because if we believe the gospel, like we believe the most important thing.
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I mean, Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15, I'd remind you of the gospel I preached to you that I um as a that as of first importance.
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So the most important thing.
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And then he goes on to say essentially exactly that Jesus died on the cross of our sins, he was buried and he rose again.
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So the most important thing is the gospel of Jesus.
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Jesus died on the cross of our sins, he was buried and he rose again.
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And so that is the thing that ought to um we ought to build our faith upon is on Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection, and um which we know about because of the Holy Scripture.
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And so we have to believe that whole that the scripture that we have to believe that scripture is um truly inerrant and that it is uh infallible, and that um that it and it's both of those things, you know, that that it is without error and that it's without any sort of um mistake, and it's completely 100% true.
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And then we have to believe that Jesus died on the cross for our sins, was buried, and rose again, which in order to believe that, we've got to believe that there is a God, that he is the God of the Bible, that he is the God that created the universe.
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And so um, so those beliefs all like those two beliefs together are really the things that the kind of the core beliefs of Christianity, um, because in order to believe one, there's so many other things you have to in order to believe the other one of them, there's so many other things you have to believe.
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But those are the core beliefs of Christianity.
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Um I I would put the Trinity in there as well, but um, but I I find it to be um, which we find in the Trinity Trump scripture anyways, but I find one thing I find to be incredibly helpful, and something that I teach my students is um Al Mueller's um theological triage.
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And in theological triage, triage means to sort.
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And um, I learned to triage as a paramedic.
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You know, I've worked as a paramedic for thirt, you know, 21 years, 22 years, whatever it was.
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And like triage is something we do when you show up on an incident and there are a lot of people that are injured, you sort them out, figure out who's the most important to be treated right now.
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Um, we do the same thing with theological concepts, and um tier one theological concepts are the non-negotiables, like these are the things you have to believe to be a Christian.
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It's the inertsy of the word of God, it's that God created the world, it's the Trinity, it's this the gospel of Jesus, um which includes the bodily resurrection, you know.
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So those are those are tier one issues.
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Tier two issues we call denominational distinctives, and those are the things that um we we believe the non-negotiables, but these are things that kind of separate us into these denominations.
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And so um things that we would that that if we believe it, it's hard for us to worship in the same church as somebody who believes something different, um, but we can trust that they are also followers of Jesus because we have these, because we believe these tier one non denominated non- uh non-negotiables.
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I'll see you in heaven one day, but I won't see you at church on Sunday.
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Basically that, yes.
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Um and and I think that it's okay.
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Like I think there are some things that you know that uh sometimes people, you know, the I I think the Bible even talks about, like, you know, it talks about how um some of us have different convictions, you know, like that um that I that I may have a conviction.
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I go back, it goes back to the eating the meat from the you know from the meat market, you know, like it um we may believe different things about it, um, so it may violate my conscience to eat it.
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Um so I think that that there's that scripture always allows for like those slight differences in um thought or belief.
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So um so I think that the the denominational thing, um, the denominational instinctives, I don't think it's a problem.
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I don't think it's a problem because I know that they're gonna be in heaven one day with me, and I know that they're also trying to reach people for Jesus, um, and they're not leading them astray from those non-negoti non-negotiables.
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So um now, of course, I truly believe in the position that I hold within that.
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You know, I I'm convictionally Southern Baptist, so like I I do believe that, but um but I'm not gonna look down on somebody who doesn't um that also still believes those.
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I'm not gonna look down on anybody, but like on those non-negotiables.
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Uh and then the third tier of trial theological triage is just um the personal preferences.
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So it's things that you and I, literally you and I, can disagree on in um, but it's not something that changes anything necessarily about the core of our faith, and it's something that we can think differently on but still worship together in the same church.
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So non-negoti non-negotiables, tier one, um, whether believer or you're not, uh denominational distinctives, tier two, you are um is the thing that kind of we like like you said, I'll see you in heaven, but I won't see you at church.
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Uh tier three, I'll see you at church.
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We just might not agree on this one theological concept, uh, whatever it might be.
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Um, so those the way the denominations came about is really because of some of those beliefs.
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Like it's um and you could look at any of those beliefs.
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One we'll look at so baptism is one of the biggest ones that separates people into these denominational states.
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If people don't really think about that, you go to a Presbyterian church or you go to a Baptist church, you know, you're gonna hear very similar messages.
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So, what is it that is that separate, and I mean, if you want to get in the nitty-gritty of it, there's also a um uh church uh polity involved in that as well.
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But um, but the but you're gonna hear a similar message, but we might think differently on um the way that baptism is supposed to work.
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So I believe in baptism, believers' baptism by immersion, that a person gets baptized once they are a believer in Jesus, because that's the pattern we see throughout scripture.
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So you get baptized by immersion, meaning you go all the way under the water, which is literally what the word um baptizo in the Greek means is uh immerse.
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And so um, so as a as a baptist, I believe that uh in believers baptism by immersion, but you but I don't believe that that saves you, and so that's what makes it a denominational distinctive and not a um non-negotiable, but um but somebody who is Presbyterian, for example, may believe in um some element of infant baptism or sprinkling, or you know, which you could look in the history of sprinkling, it really came up um like centuries ago um as a kind of a uh a way to baptize somebody on their deathbed, um, but then it just kind of became mainstream with within the church.
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So, I mean, so though you there's a lot of history to how things have become the way they are, but the main thing for us now is like what what does the Bible say and how do I best believe the Bible, and then how do I go to a church that faithfully believes the same thing, um, which is tricky because also like I'm not trying to fit a church into or the Bible even into what I feel comfortable believing.
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I want to believe what the Bible has to say.
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Um, and that's another thing, too.
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Like there are churches out there that um that are capitulating to the culture because that's what they're doing.
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And so you have to also be aware of uh of the fact that there are entire denominations at some points that are doing that, and I think that's moving them from I think they're actually affecting their non-negotiable status, you know, they're becoming churches that are not full of believers, but churches that are full of people just kind of gathering, um, which is a shame.
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And it's I think it's a I think it's the work of the devil because it's just lulling people into sleep to sleep, thinking they're just checking a box and they're not truly actually believing the gospel or going to heaven, and it's um it's the Lord, Lord, people.
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Um depart from me, I never knew you.
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Which is this is so sad.
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Um but so I don't know how like you know that it it's hard to go through like a history of like, well, this is where the Methodists came from, this is where the Lutherans came from.
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But I mean, but those are the things that separate us.
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And so if you're gonna if you're choosing a church, you have to you you kind of need to look at what does what does the Bible say, and then what denomination do I think is capturing that the best the best way possible.
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Um which I mean there are a lot of stuff.
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I mean, non-denominational is incredibly similar to Baptist, like just in some of them, yeah, yeah.
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Some of them I mean the the but as a mainstream it is incredibly similar.
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So um because Baptist churches are not there's not a hierarchy of Baptist churches, there's not like the Baptist, you know, president somewhere that's you know passing down all the I mean they're I see in terms of the local church autonomy, yes.
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Yes, so each each church is it an independent church that then chooses to cooperate with a Baptist you know alliance of some sort, and there are over 250 different Baptist streams, you know, there's two main streams if you're gonna do Baptist history, but like there's um but there's over 250 different Baptist organizations, you know, Baptist denominations, so to speak.
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So like just because something is someone is Baptist does not mean that they are exactly the same as all the others, too.
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So like it's it's very it's complicated and convoluted, but the the biggest thing is does this church faithfully teach the Bible?
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Does this church believe the gospel?
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And is this church seeking to follow what scriptures say?
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Yeah.
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I think your starting point of saying that it's denominations are not a problem is very helpful because I think they're often viewed in that way.
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And so I would agree they're not a problem.
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Um I'm glad you brought up theological triage.
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If you didn't, I was going to I I taught a membership class at our church two days ago, and every time I teach the class, I talk about theological triage um and kind of why we are uh Southern Baptist.
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That's that's a helpful tool if you haven't seen that tool before.
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Um we probably should move on to another topic, but I'll ask one last question.
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Um, is Catholicism a denomination?
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I I think Catholicism is a denomination.
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Um I think Catholicism is Catholicism is a little tricky because um there are a lot of the non-nego non-negotiables that Catholicism um believes and upholds.
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The problem the problem is that there's a lot of other things that are put into that category within the Catholic Church that are simply not that don't belong in the category of non-negotiable.
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And I think that like so basically I I think that it is possible within the Catholic Church to come to faith in Jesus Christ.
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I I think that is possible.
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I think that there are some Catholic priests that are faithfully teaching the scriptures and um and leading people to follow Christ.
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But I think that the Catholic Church as a whole, I think there's a lot of um theological error because they equate um theological or history, basically, or practice is equated with scripture.
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And so that is one of the I think the biggest problems.
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And and so for a lot of people, the Catholic Church has actually become a works-based religion as opposed to a grace-based religion, and I don't think that is true Christianity.
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Um, which I mean, this it shouldn't surprise anyone for me to say that because I mean I'm a part of a Protestant denomination.
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Protestant denominations arose out of a protest of what the Catholic Church was doing.
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That's literally how the name came about.
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So it wouldn't it shouldn't surprise anyone for me to say that um that Catholicism is not doing it right, um, in my understanding of scripture and my understanding of the Bible, and um obviously many, many others, because that's why we protest.
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No, that's a good way to put it.
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I'm glad you brought up the root word of protest.
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Um I would agree that uh you can come to faith in in in a Catholic church.
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Um that said though, I think I think Catholic doctrine correctly articulated and understood is not salvific.
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That is that's what we were protesting against.
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Right.
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And so um there's enough there, I think that someone could come to faith, but after you come to faith, you go go join a Protestant church.
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Yes.
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So uh I j I just think it's tricky when like the everyday Christian is is like, well, there's all these denominations, Baptists and Presbyterians and Catholics, and I'm like, Well, that last one I think is is is in a whole category of its own, a whole league of its own.
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So um anyways, that's uh Well, you would put you would put Catholicism with other liturgical um traditions like Episcopalian and Anglican, like they're not truly Protestant.
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In what way?
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So they I mean, although they are um although they are separate from the Catholic Church, Episcopalian and Anglican, which Anglican is the Church of England, are essentially just um just offshoots of the Catholic Church.
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They're not they're not the Protestant movement is kind of a Martin Luther never when he started the Protestant movement, never intended to separate from the Catholic Church.
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Right.
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But ultimately that's what happened in the Protestant movement.
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I think that um that the way that the Episcopalian and um and Anglican churches were and and uh some Orthodox churches even, it's more of a trying to just fix the Catholic Church in a way.
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So it's so yes, it is not a part of the Catholic Church.
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So technically, I guess you could say they are also protesting, but I think that really what they're trying to do is just fix the Catholic Church.
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Um so I don't think it's as separate as Protestant denominations.
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So I would not put those into category of Protestant denominations.
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Okay.
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Um which is why I don't think of Catholicism as its own kind of I think of it in the category of those other liturgical type um uh denominations.
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It's the it's the reformation principle of um simper reformanda, which is always reforming, and to be always basically the reformation is not over, but to always be reforming is to not we're not always creating something new, we're always calling God's people back to something old, the faith once for all delivered to the saints.
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And so as the church drifts, we're we are simple reformanda, we're constantly reforming the church and calling the church back to something old.
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I just thought of that when you said Luther's original intent was not to uh not to break from the Catholic Church.
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He wanted to call the Catholic Church, which at the time was just the church, right?
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He wanted to call the church back to uh the faith once for all uh delivered to the saints.
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So um I think even in the Southern Baptist Convention, Presbyterianism, Methodism, Lutheranism, you name it, uh we're always reforming, we're always calling our churches back to uh the the true faith.
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So um good stuff.
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Yeah, good stuff.
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Yeah.
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We got a hard, hard deadline here, so let's keep it.
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Let's keep it, let's keep the show moving.
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Helps the folks that are listening.
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That's that's true.
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Um all right, so you uh you preached on Psalm 139 on Sunday, and our church is in the middle of the songs of the summer.
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I think we're going into week 13 of songs this summer, right?
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Yep.
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This coming Sunday is the last Sunday in the series.
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Yeah, so um so you preached on Psalm 139, which is traditionally a very pro-life psalm, right?
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So like um I I praise you for I'm Fearfully and Wonderfully Made.
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Um, you knit me together in my mother's womb.
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Like, you know, like there's some very important things in there.
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But um the thing that struck me and that always strikes me a little bit with the Psalms uh is uh is the discussion of hate at the end, um, where and I'm sure you haven't memorized because you always do, but like um where um where he where David is basically saying, like, I hate these people, like I hate your enemies, I hate these people.
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And you addressed it um a little bit on Sunday, but like the so the practical question for me is can I hate evildoers?
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And we always go back to the oh well hate the you know, hate the sin, love the sinner.
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Um but like if somebody does something god-awful to one of my family members, can I hate them?
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Yeah, it's a good question.
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Um so the the context was uh Psalm 139, uh verses 19 through 22.
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Uh it's a 24-verse Psalm.
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Um and the first 18 verses are very uh God focused.
00:19:15.680 --> 00:19:18.720
God knows everything, God exists everywhere, God creates everyone.
00:19:18.880 --> 00:19:21.519
The last two verses are are pretty well-known verses as well.
00:19:21.680 --> 00:19:24.400
God search me, reveal to me grievous ways within me.
00:19:24.640 --> 00:19:27.119
But it's those those four verses, 19 through 22.
00:19:27.200 --> 00:19:30.640
David takes a very sudden dark turn and then breaks from it.
00:19:30.880 --> 00:19:33.599
It's just like a very a very interesting commercial break.
00:19:33.680 --> 00:19:38.720
And he's like, God, there's all these bloodthirsty men, and I hate them, I loathe them.
00:19:38.960 --> 00:19:40.720
He just doubles down on it in verse 22.
00:19:40.799 --> 00:19:42.240
He's like, I hate them completely.
00:19:42.319 --> 00:19:43.680
I I can't stand them.
00:19:43.920 --> 00:19:46.000
And um, so I I addressed it.
00:19:46.079 --> 00:19:50.640
Um that was interestingly the hardest section to preach.
00:19:50.880 --> 00:19:51.119
Yes.
00:19:51.279 --> 00:19:57.519
Um, I was expecting verses 13 to 18 to be the hardest section, um, but I really enjoyed that section.
00:19:57.599 --> 00:19:58.880
I enjoyed all of it, you know what I mean.
00:19:59.039 --> 00:20:07.440
But um those four verses were the hardest section, and so I I basically like did some digging and uh appreciate the way that uh David Guzick preached it.
00:20:07.519 --> 00:20:11.839
Uh G-U-Z-I-K, if you're not familiar with him, uh I enjoy his preaching a lot.
00:20:12.000 --> 00:20:21.759
And um so I when I when I referenced someone from the pulpit, I try not to name drop, so I said in that section three different times, like one theologian said this, or one preacher said this.
00:20:21.920 --> 00:20:28.160
I was basically just talking about Guzick the whole time, uh, because he his perspective was the most helpful one I found.
00:20:28.319 --> 00:20:35.759
Um and he basically said uh the old cliche um, you know, hate the sin without hating the sinner.
00:20:35.839 --> 00:20:46.880
Uh he did quote George Horne, which said, Um, you know, it you shouldn't love the sin on behalf of the sinner who's committing the sin, but you also shouldn't uh hate the sinner on behalf of the sin that they're committing.
00:20:46.960 --> 00:20:51.519
So just a longer way of saying hate the sin without hating the sinner.
00:20:51.759 --> 00:20:57.279
And um I found that helpful because he he concluded by saying um we do this every day with ourselves.
00:20:57.440 --> 00:21:00.880
We hate the sin that we commit, uh yet we love ourselves anyway.
00:21:00.960 --> 00:21:05.119
And I just I thought that was a helpful, uh helpful thing for our people to think about.
00:21:05.359 --> 00:21:17.759
At the same time, I felt incomplete in that section because there are verses in the scriptures, uh, Psalm 5.5, where uh God talks about like we always think, you know, uh God doesn't hate people, he hates the sin people commit.
00:21:17.839 --> 00:21:20.640
Well in Psalm 5.5 it says God hates the evildoer.
00:21:20.720 --> 00:21:25.119
Like God doesn't hate the evil the evildoer's doing, God hates the evildoer themselves.
00:21:25.359 --> 00:21:30.799
Um and so I I I felt incomplete in in my preaching of that section.
00:21:30.960 --> 00:21:40.400
Um I did think of uh I I referenced Christ's teaching in Matthew 5 44 about you know, love our enemies and pray for those who persecute you.
00:21:40.559 --> 00:21:44.960
There's also a section in the Sermon on the Mount that says, if you hate someone in your heart, it's as good as murder.
00:21:45.519 --> 00:21:52.000
Um and so what is David doing there when he when he's hating uh when he's hating the evildoer?
00:21:52.160 --> 00:21:53.759
Um I I I don't know.
00:21:53.839 --> 00:22:05.119
I I I don't um I don't think we can I I think hate is a I I don't know.
00:22:05.279 --> 00:22:07.200
I I don't think hate is a place where we should live.
00:22:07.279 --> 00:22:09.440
I think it's a natural human emotion.
00:22:09.519 --> 00:22:13.519
Like you used the extreme example of someone harmed your family, you wouldn't just hate the harm they did.
00:22:13.599 --> 00:22:14.559
You might hate that person.
00:22:14.720 --> 00:22:16.079
I don't know that we could live there.
00:22:16.240 --> 00:22:26.160
Um I think at some point we would have to we'd have to exit our hatred and forgive that person without forgetting, without you know, r releasing them from the consequences.
00:22:26.319 --> 00:22:35.279
But um I the Psalms are a lot of natural human emotions, and that was what I was feeling from David in in those four verses.
00:22:35.440 --> 00:22:42.799
He just was so enthralled by who God is, and then he just took a sudden turn of like I hate the people who aren't enthralled with you like I am.
00:22:42.960 --> 00:22:45.359
Um But I I don't think you can live there.
00:22:45.440 --> 00:22:49.119
I think you you should love your enemies, not hate them, and pray for those who persecute you.
00:22:49.279 --> 00:22:51.119
Hate is like murder.
00:22:51.359 --> 00:22:58.640
Um so I I think I guess I would land in in the camp of like it's a natural thing to hate someone.
00:22:58.720 --> 00:23:02.799
I don't know that it's good or somewhere you should stay, um, if that makes sense.
00:23:02.880 --> 00:23:15.440
But yes, we did talk about it Sunday, and I felt like I gave people some things to think about, but I don't think I gave them everything to think about on the topic of hatred from the pulpit, because I only had 30 minutes to talk about 24 verses, so we kept going there.
00:23:15.599 --> 00:23:18.799
But um any anyways, you have thoughts on hatred?
00:23:19.519 --> 00:23:40.160
I mean, I I I think about hatred all the time, like and and I think about it because the Bible talks about it, and it's because of those passages of the Psalms where it talks about um what David or the psalmist, whoever it may be, talks about hating the enemies of God, um, and like you mentioned, God hating the evildoer.
00:23:40.559 --> 00:23:48.160
Um, but then you look at those New Testaments, uh, those New Testament passages, and you see, you know, love your enemies, pray for those who persecute you.
00:23:48.240 --> 00:23:54.640
Um, you see in First John, you know, like if you say you hate your brother, that you love God, that you're a liar.
00:23:54.960 --> 00:24:06.559
Um But on a lot of those um But even and even in the Sermon on the Mount where he says Um that if you that hating he it actually talks about hate is and murder it's talking about your brother.
00:24:06.720 --> 00:24:10.400
It says if you hate your brother, it's um it's as good as murder.
00:24:10.559 --> 00:24:16.480
Um so I wonder true, I wonder if like if there is some sort of distinction.
00:24:16.559 --> 00:24:20.319
Now now practically we obviously know that hate is bad for your heart.
00:24:20.559 --> 00:24:25.039
Um that hate can just it it drags you into a dark, dark place.
00:24:25.200 --> 00:24:26.640
So like hate is bad for us.
00:24:26.799 --> 00:24:29.680
So if we harbor hate, it is bad for us.
00:24:29.839 --> 00:24:42.720
Except that God has hate, you know, so like there's gotta be there's gotta be some way, like sometimes when I say, Oh, I really hate that, and then people are like, Oh, you shouldn't hate, it's like, ah God hates.
00:24:42.960 --> 00:25:05.119
And so I think that there are appropriate things for us to hate, uh, like sin and and tragedy and you know, and just the some of those terrible things that happen in the world, but I have to imagine that there are also times where it's not wrong to hate somebody.
00:25:05.759 --> 00:25:16.480
Well, I think um something helpful might be you know, philosophically I'm not convinced that uh hate is the antithesis of love is the opposite of love.
00:25:16.880 --> 00:25:18.319
I think that's naturally where our mind goes to the state.
00:25:18.480 --> 00:25:19.920
Well that I think that probably is the problem.
00:25:20.079 --> 00:25:20.240
Yeah.
00:25:20.559 --> 00:25:23.359
But I think the opposite of love is lust, I think.
00:25:23.440 --> 00:25:26.720
Uh I think lusting after something is the antithesis of loving.
00:25:27.359 --> 00:25:45.519
And if if you if you divorce or not divorce, but if you um think of hate not as the opposite of love, but as something that's uh is actually um can can go along with love, compatible with love, uh then you can see God as a being that can hate.
00:25:45.680 --> 00:25:54.799
Um but I think we in our human minds with our limited language, we sometimes struggle with God hating because we think of hate as the opposite of love, but I'm not sure that it is.
00:25:55.200 --> 00:25:57.440
No, that and that's that's very wise.
00:25:58.319 --> 00:25:58.960
Absolutely.
00:25:59.119 --> 00:26:11.119
I mean, that's a very good point because we're we're working with our English language um limitations and not you know, we and and our human finite limitations.
00:26:11.440 --> 00:26:14.319
So we're not thinking of things the way that God is thinking of things.
00:26:14.559 --> 00:26:25.119
Um and I also think you know there there are times, I think we've talked before, like there are times where um uh or we've uh maybe we haven't talked about this here.
00:26:25.200 --> 00:26:42.960
I've just talked about oh, time to be at work, uh, or I've talked about it recently where um where God has uh where he talks about in like Romans, where he talks about like there's there's um people created basically for destruction, you know, like there's people who um they were they were never going to be saved.
00:26:43.039 --> 00:26:52.319
And this is a whole other conversation, you know, but um to unpack that uh that aspect of Romans, but we're called to just love our neighbor, so because we don't know.
00:26:52.559 --> 00:27:15.839
So like I I could you know I can meet someone who's one of the who's done some of the worst things and think, well, surely this is one of those people that God you know is destined for destruction, so I can go ahead and hate them, except that I don't know, and that person can come to faith the next day, and you know, Paul was a pretty bad guy, Saul, Paul, whatever, was a pretty bad guy when he's going around killing folks, you know.
00:27:16.079 --> 00:27:18.400
So, um, but he came to faith of Christ.
00:27:18.480 --> 00:27:36.559
So I I think that the problem is that sometimes we try and be the judge, we try and be the one to determine like, is this someone that I should hate, or is this someone that um that I should love when we don't know what is ultimately going to happen and we don't know ultimately what God's intention or what God's purpose is for that person.
00:27:37.200 --> 00:27:42.880
I think the the Romans reference is helpful because it's you know, Jacob have I loved, Esau have I hated.
00:27:43.119 --> 00:27:43.359
Right.
00:27:43.519 --> 00:27:46.960
Um that's a helpful that's a helpful reference.
00:27:47.039 --> 00:27:47.200
Yeah.
00:27:47.519 --> 00:27:52.880
Well I th well I think in that instance it's kind of why people think love and hate are opposites.
00:27:53.279 --> 00:27:53.920
But they're not.
00:27:54.160 --> 00:27:54.319
Right.
00:27:54.400 --> 00:28:01.599
But I'm saying but I'm saying like when they're when it's when it's um juxtaposed like that, like because they're using the same sentence together.
00:28:02.000 --> 00:28:02.079
Right.
00:28:02.559 --> 00:28:02.880
Right.
00:28:03.599 --> 00:28:05.039
So I don't know.
00:28:05.200 --> 00:28:05.839
Did we solve it?
00:28:06.160 --> 00:28:09.039
I I don't know that we ever but I honestly I don't know if we can.
00:28:09.119 --> 00:28:20.559
But I think I I think that the that practically, like, we just have to remember that yes, God hates and we should hate sin, but also like if we go around just dwelling on hate, it's gonna make us into a really rotten person.
00:28:20.799 --> 00:28:23.920
Yeah, I think that's the probably the practical place I would land is just don't live there.
00:28:24.000 --> 00:28:26.799
Um you know, try to try to move on quick quickly.
00:28:26.880 --> 00:28:32.079
Um forgive and forget's not physically possible, but uh forgive and move on um is good.
00:28:33.359 --> 00:28:34.240
Indeed, indeed.
00:28:34.559 --> 00:28:35.200
Is it my turn?
00:28:35.440 --> 00:28:35.599
Yeah.
00:28:35.759 --> 00:28:36.160
Oh yeah.
00:28:36.319 --> 00:28:39.759
Um uh church hurt is my second topic.
00:28:40.000 --> 00:28:40.240
Okay.
00:28:40.559 --> 00:28:46.880
Um basically uh you hear the phrase church hurt thrown around a lot.
00:28:47.119 --> 00:28:49.440
Um uh what is it?
00:28:49.599 --> 00:28:51.599
How should the everyday Christian think about it?
00:28:51.680 --> 00:28:58.480
Uh when uh does a church actually hurt somebody, and how should the everyday Christian respond?
00:28:58.720 --> 00:29:07.440
When when is church hurt being used incorrectly and someone should really just change their perspective or their attitude?
00:29:07.680 --> 00:29:11.599
Um church hurt is just a phrase that's often used by the everyday Christian.
00:29:11.759 --> 00:29:12.960
I'm curious what you think about it.
00:29:13.680 --> 00:29:13.920
Sure.
00:29:14.000 --> 00:29:18.720
So church when someone says church hurt, they usually mean like something that something has happened in the church.
00:29:18.799 --> 00:29:25.440
You know, some something has happened in the church that has hurt me and it's it's you know kind of jaded me towards the church.
00:29:25.759 --> 00:29:36.240
And I think that I think that that's kind of a it's understandable how that would happen sometimes because we we expect, okay, this is the church of Jesus Christ.
00:29:36.480 --> 00:29:38.319
Jesus is the perfect Son of God.
00:29:38.480 --> 00:29:43.519
Um the church should be, you know, somewhere where I can feel safe and feel you know well cared for.
00:29:43.680 --> 00:29:57.200
And that's obviously what we as you know people that are in church leadership want is for um for that to be the case, but it's not always the case because the church is also administered by a bunch of imperfect people.
00:29:57.440 --> 00:30:07.039
Um and so your expectations will not always be perfectly met, which is part of the problem, because sometimes we have unrealistic expectations.
00:30:07.279 --> 00:30:22.720
But um, but it's also understandable why like why that could potentially come up as like you know, as as why we would get so hurt, because we've made ourselves more vulnerable than we might in a in the general population and the general you know public, um, because we're the church.
00:30:22.799 --> 00:30:29.119
And so we made ourselves more vulnerable, and then something has happened that has called us caused us to um to be hurt.
00:30:29.200 --> 00:30:30.880
So you could kind of understand how that happens.
00:30:30.960 --> 00:31:04.640
And but also I want to differentiate between um what I would consider like true heinousness in the church, yes, like somebody that you know, if you were abused by someone in church leadership, like physically abused in some way, assaulted, um demeaned, like intentionally, like there's there are legitimate, like that, that's a different thing, you know, like you were extorted, you were, you know, like the there are there are ways that the church truly, truly hurts that you can't call anything but that.
00:31:04.720 --> 00:31:11.920
And it's but it's things that all of us would denounce, you know, and say, um, that's not just a simple mistake made by a church leader.
00:31:12.079 --> 00:31:15.759
That's something that's that's a wolf eating sheep.
00:31:15.839 --> 00:31:19.039
You know, that's that's not what's supposed to, that's not what's supposed to happen.
00:31:19.519 --> 00:31:20.319
I hate that.
00:31:20.480 --> 00:31:21.680
That's a call, that's a callback.
00:31:21.920 --> 00:31:22.240
There you go.
00:31:22.400 --> 00:31:24.079
But I do, I like I hate that.
00:31:24.240 --> 00:31:26.880
Like that's terrible, like that should never happen.
00:31:27.039 --> 00:31:28.000
Um, but it does.
00:31:28.160 --> 00:31:29.680
And that is understandable.
00:31:29.839 --> 00:31:35.440
That's an understandable way that you could say you've been hurt by the church when reality you've actually been hurt by a person.
00:31:35.599 --> 00:31:39.279
It's just a problem, is that person was representing the church.
00:31:39.440 --> 00:31:41.039
And so that's where that becomes problematic.
00:31:41.119 --> 00:31:42.960
So I think, but I think that's one category.
00:31:43.039 --> 00:31:47.359
Like that's um that's something different than what a lot of people refer to when they say church hurt.
00:31:47.440 --> 00:31:57.200
When they a lot of people, when they say church hurt, is because most likely someone in the church, a church leader, uh, a you know, an influential church member, did something that was like a mistake.
00:31:57.359 --> 00:32:05.039
They did something to embarrass somebody, they did something to um to not meet an expectation, you know, whatever that may be.
00:32:05.200 --> 00:32:15.279
Um, that you know, I really wanted to serve in this ministry position, they told me no, or you know, I'm not and I don't want to downplay any of it because it's real, like people really do feel that way.
00:32:15.440 --> 00:32:29.839
But I think that what we have to recognize is if we're not talking about that category of true abuse, what we have to recognize is that we're dealing with fallible humans, not the infallible God, um, directly as people in the church.
00:32:29.920 --> 00:32:33.519
And so we have to be able to look past simple mistakes.
00:32:33.680 --> 00:32:41.839
Now, sometimes it does mean we need to go find a new church, but I think what it shouldn't do is it shouldn't cause us to not ever go to church.
00:32:42.000 --> 00:32:46.160
You know, like hey, this church, I really feel like they didn't like understand me.
00:32:46.240 --> 00:32:47.759
There wasn't a way for me to really plug in.
00:32:47.839 --> 00:32:52.880
There wasn't a way for me to actually serve in that church just because of the way that this person thought about me or whatever.
00:32:53.039 --> 00:32:56.000
Instead of saying, well, I now I have church hurt and I'm gonna stay home forever.
00:32:56.079 --> 00:33:07.279
Um, we ought to be like, let me go find a church that I can contribute to, that I can plug into, that you know, if if we really feel like we're being neglected or whatever, I mean, and that that's the attitude that we should have.
00:33:07.359 --> 00:33:13.440
And I I so I think a lot of that just needs to be looked over as it needs to be looked at with grace.
00:33:13.599 --> 00:33:15.359
Like these are not perfect people.
00:33:15.519 --> 00:33:18.960
And yes, this situation was not favorable to me, and it was hurtful.
00:33:19.039 --> 00:33:22.559
Like it legitimately, some of these situations are truly hurtful.
00:33:22.799 --> 00:33:35.359
Um, but I think sometimes we just need to understand that we're not dealing with God in those situations, we're dealing with people, and we need to give it to God, and we need to move on.
00:33:35.680 --> 00:33:36.000
Yeah.
00:33:36.160 --> 00:33:38.079
No, I think that was well said.
00:33:38.240 --> 00:33:42.319
Um I think you've already like set aside heinous things in its own category.
00:33:42.400 --> 00:33:47.519
You know, someone who does one of those things should be arrested, imprisoned, never allowed back into the ministry.
00:33:47.599 --> 00:33:50.000
Like I I I have a very hard line with those items.
00:33:50.160 --> 00:33:50.400
Yes.
00:33:50.640 --> 00:33:57.279
Um, but when it comes to you said it well also that the church is being led by fallible humans.
00:33:57.359 --> 00:34:00.319
You know, I I I am a pastor, I'm a fallible human.
00:34:00.400 --> 00:34:03.599
I will say something or do something that will hurt somebody one day if I haven't already.
00:34:03.759 --> 00:34:10.639
Or I will fail to say something or fail to do something that will uh hurt somebody one day, and I would like a chance to make it right.
00:34:10.800 --> 00:34:15.119
And uh wherever you go to church, your pastor would like a chance to uh make it right.
00:34:15.199 --> 00:34:19.360
And I just find it problematic when, you know, it's it happens from time to time.
00:34:19.519 --> 00:34:34.559
I'll talk to somebody who's visiting our church, and they're like, Well, I went, uh you know, I was in this state, and I went to this church and this church and this church, but they kept, you know, this church hurt me for this reason, this one hurt me for this reason, and now I'm here, and this is the third church I've tried because this one hurt me and this one hurt me.
00:34:34.719 --> 00:34:38.880
And I was like, Well, there's a common denominator here, yeah, and it's you.
00:34:39.039 --> 00:34:39.280
Right.
00:34:39.519 --> 00:34:42.480
So give it three months, and we're gonna hurt you as well, and you'll be gone.
00:34:42.559 --> 00:34:44.079
And sure enough, that's what happens.
00:34:44.159 --> 00:34:48.880
And so that's just that's not good for your soul, that's not good for your family.
00:34:48.960 --> 00:34:55.840
Like, give give the give the leadership a chance to you know make things right and um and stick it out.
00:34:56.159 --> 00:35:03.760
Unless it's heinous and horrible when that's we've already established that, but um you know stick it out and have some have some grace and patience.
00:35:03.840 --> 00:35:08.239
And um I'm not on a soapbox right now, like I don't have some sort of issue going on behind the scenes.
00:35:08.400 --> 00:35:14.559
I just you know I've seen that pattern over the years, and I think for the everyday Christian, thinking rightly about church hurt is helpful.
00:35:14.639 --> 00:35:26.000
So well, if you if you think about like Jesus in Matthew 18, where he talks about solving conflict, you know, where we're supposed to go to the person, go with a witness, go to the church, which you know means go to the leadership of the church.
00:35:26.159 --> 00:35:30.079
Um, in some cases may actually be the leadership of the church.
00:35:30.320 --> 00:35:42.239
Um Jesus is like Jesus himself in before the uh um before the establishment of the of the church on this earth really is saying, Hey, things are gonna happen in the church.
00:35:42.400 --> 00:35:46.639
Like it's not always gonna be perfect because we're dealing with people, but here's how you handle it.
00:35:46.880 --> 00:35:52.079
And I I do think that a lot of people don't take that first step of, hey man, this person hurt me.
00:35:52.159 --> 00:36:10.880
I should go to them and be like, hey, you know, when you when you didn't acknowledge that, you know, that this happened or that, or when you know you you were kind of callous in this, the way you spoke about this thing, you know, which which is always I'm I'm thinking it's probably always going to be unintentional by the church leadership or by the you know the the person within the church for the most part.
00:36:10.960 --> 00:36:14.000
You know, I want to think the best about people, not think the worst about people.
00:36:14.239 --> 00:36:22.159
So um my but I think that first step is so important, but that first step is often not taken when we're claiming church hurt.
00:36:22.559 --> 00:36:24.000
Yeah, I I can't I'm kind of weird.
00:36:24.079 --> 00:36:31.840
Like I'm I'm actually encouraged by conflict in in a weird way because conflict, if it's synonymous with friction, friction is is a result of movement.
00:36:32.079 --> 00:36:38.079
Like if there's if there's friction, if there's conflict, it's probably because your church is trying to accomplish something and trying to go somewhere.
00:36:38.480 --> 00:36:44.400
Um if there's no friction, no conflict, it's probably uh a a sign of stagnation and complacency.
00:36:44.559 --> 00:36:45.679
Not always, but generally.
00:36:45.840 --> 00:36:48.079
And so I actually don't mind conflict.
00:36:48.239 --> 00:36:50.480
Um, but let's resolve it and stick it out.
00:36:50.639 --> 00:36:53.119
Let's not you know claim church hurt and leave.
00:36:53.199 --> 00:36:56.800
So uh I just think that that that's a helpful, helpful conversation.
00:36:57.039 --> 00:36:57.280
Yeah.
00:36:57.440 --> 00:36:59.360
So last one.
00:36:59.679 --> 00:37:00.079
For sure.
00:37:00.320 --> 00:37:01.519
So all right.
00:37:01.840 --> 00:37:07.840
Um last week we vote was the pro primary voting here in the state of Florida, the free state of Florida.
00:37:08.480 --> 00:37:13.679
Um and we'll have the midterm elections coming up in November.
00:37:13.920 --> 00:37:17.679
Uh and we've talked about voting before, like, should a Christian vote, right?
00:37:17.840 --> 00:37:19.920
That was that was one of our topics previously.
00:37:20.079 --> 00:37:25.760
Um, but like, how do I figure out who to vote for as a Christian?
00:37:26.079 --> 00:37:28.400
So we're gonna use the assumption that we should vote.
00:37:28.719 --> 00:37:30.960
That's kind of what we came up with when we talked about it.
00:37:31.199 --> 00:37:38.320
Um because we're in favor of human flourishing, but how uh how do I choose who I vote for?
00:37:39.519 --> 00:37:40.800
Oh, that's a good question.
00:37:41.039 --> 00:37:51.760
Um I'm trying to think of a like a scripture to point to um outside of like you know, James 4 8, that he who lacks wisdom ask for it and God will give it to you.
00:37:51.840 --> 00:37:53.920
You know, I need some wisdom here in the ballot box.
00:37:54.079 --> 00:37:56.559
Uh that's that's a that's a fair verse to use, I suppose.
00:37:56.639 --> 00:38:09.119
But um I I am not like I um I I'm not one who like without saying who I would vote for specifically, like I'm not one who uh wastes my vote.
00:38:09.280 --> 00:38:12.880
Like I I don't think writing in a name or voting for a small party is worth it.
00:38:12.960 --> 00:38:14.960
So I I will go so far as to say that.
00:38:15.119 --> 00:38:16.880
Um a lot of people do that out of conviction.
00:38:16.960 --> 00:38:23.039
They're like, I'm gonna vote, but I'm you know, I'm gonna write in Kevin Saxon's name, or like you'd make a great governor.
00:38:23.280 --> 00:38:28.960
But um yeah, it's just it's just a waste of it's just a waste of your vote, in my opinion.
00:38:29.119 --> 00:38:48.719
So uh I I would I would actually narrow the field um to to the people who you actually think have a chance of winning and choose the person who um who has the best policies, not the best personality, uh charismatic or or moral or whatever, um, but the best policies to actually flourish human society.
00:38:48.880 --> 00:38:53.840
So um I I find that problematic as well when we vote for a person based on their perceived character.
00:38:53.920 --> 00:38:55.519
First of all, you've never met them, you don't know them.
00:38:55.679 --> 00:38:55.840
Right.
00:38:56.000 --> 00:38:57.440
Um you just know their public character.
00:38:57.599 --> 00:39:00.320
But also, like you're not this is I I feel very strongly about this.
00:39:00.480 --> 00:39:04.880
You're not voting for a pastor, you're you're voting for a president or you're voting for a governor.
00:39:05.039 --> 00:39:08.079
Like, don't hold them to the standard of 1 Timothy chapter 3.
00:39:08.320 --> 00:39:14.400
Those are those are pastoral standards, those are not presidential standards, those are not uh guvernat how do you say gubernatorial?
00:39:14.639 --> 00:39:15.360
Gubernatorial, yeah.
00:39:15.440 --> 00:39:16.079
Yes, I did it.
00:39:16.159 --> 00:39:26.159
So those are not standards for governors, like those are standards for pastors, and it's problematic when we try to um overlay those standards onto political leaders.
00:39:26.239 --> 00:39:40.400
And so uh I I wouldn't say completely ignore their personality or their perceived morality, but vote for them based on their policies and vote for the person who you think has good policies and can actually win.
00:39:40.559 --> 00:39:45.440
Um so I I that's that's kind of where I that's kind of how I decide.
00:39:45.599 --> 00:39:47.360
Um I don't I do vote.
00:39:47.440 --> 00:39:53.920
Uh I think voting for a smaller party uh or writing someone in is a waste of your vote personally.
00:39:54.159 --> 00:39:58.719
And um I don't put as much weight on um personality or perceived morality.
00:39:58.800 --> 00:40:01.039
I look specifically at policies and vote that way.
00:40:01.199 --> 00:40:05.599
So uh those are kind of I guess three three pointers, those are my three pointers for Christians.
00:40:05.679 --> 00:40:06.159
So yeah.
00:40:06.400 --> 00:40:07.199
What about you?
00:40:07.519 --> 00:40:19.519
Uh well my I actually have been voted for in a couple races before, um, because my friend and I we used to, if there was only one person running unopposed and it wasn't the person that we wanted in an office, we would vote for each other.
00:40:19.760 --> 00:40:21.840
Well, yeah, that's so fair enough.
00:40:22.000 --> 00:40:27.199
Yeah, so I I've gotten several votes in some uh in some elections in Palm Beach County.
00:40:27.679 --> 00:40:31.679
But um for for for multiple positions too, actually.
00:40:31.920 --> 00:40:34.079
Um but no, I think you're I think you're right.
00:40:34.159 --> 00:40:35.840
Like you want to vote for somebody who's actually gonna win.
00:40:35.920 --> 00:40:55.760
I think that the the key though is figuring out how how do we like the the the and I agree with you too, like that we're voting on the positions, we're voting on the person who's going to to have the best chance for leading our culture or leading our you know, leading our country, our our state, our local government, um, in a way that's gonna cause human flourishing.
00:40:55.840 --> 00:41:02.639
I absolutely agree with that, but like how do we decide what policies those are that cause us to make that decision?
00:41:03.039 --> 00:41:04.880
I mean that's highly debated, actually.
00:41:05.039 --> 00:41:28.239
Um because like we we already talked about how two sent or two Sundays ago, two days ago on Sunday, we discussed the pro-life issue um from Psalm 139, as we should, and some would say some some well-meaning Christians in our in our pews on Sunday would say that the Democratic Party is the pro-life party, and some would say the Republican Party is the pro-life party.
00:41:28.320 --> 00:41:32.000
Um and they have convictions and preferences one way or another.
00:41:32.239 --> 00:41:44.559
Um and so that but they would they would all affirm that um you know life begins at conception and ends at natural death, but um this party uh fights for life better than this one or that one.
00:41:44.719 --> 00:41:50.400
So I think that that is that is a highly debated um that is a highly debated issue.
00:41:50.880 --> 00:42:01.440
Um I I think there are some I think there are uh degrees of issues that like I would um I would put abortion toward the top uh in terms of being anti-abortion.
00:42:01.599 --> 00:42:08.719
Um so not just being pro-life but also being anti-abortion, like I would put that toward the the top of the list in terms of policies to look at.
00:42:08.800 --> 00:42:11.679
And so there's not all policies are the same.
00:42:11.920 --> 00:42:30.960
Um but um yeah, I I guess I guess that that question is just it's a hard one to answer because uh I would say principally um you know vote for the person representing policies that represent scripture well, but there's a debate on like which policies represent scripture well.
00:42:31.039 --> 00:42:37.840
Like I I mean a debate, sure, but I think there are there could there's definitive answers to many of them.
00:42:38.320 --> 00:42:45.360
Um but but but I think but I we've talked about it before though the best policy for human flourishing is scripture.
00:42:45.679 --> 00:42:57.760
So, yes, I'm not voting for a pastor, but I do want to vote for somebody who's going to be the best for human flourishing, and the best way to bring about human flourishing is by doing what scripture says.
00:42:58.079 --> 00:43:13.760
And I do think that um that there are some things that are incredibly clear in scripture that are purposely made convoluted in politics so that people get, and especially church people, get confused.
00:43:14.159 --> 00:43:31.199
And and I think that there are but I think that there are a lot of uh a lot of those issues that we make into issues and say, well, I mean you're thinking about this life and not that life, or you're thinking about this and not like I think some of those things are actually pretty clear if we are honest with ourselves and honest about scripture.
00:43:31.440 --> 00:43:39.039
And I would I would have I mean I and I mean there's a reason why you and I pretty much come down on the same decisions, I'm sure.
00:43:39.360 --> 00:43:43.360
Um it's because we read the Bible and try and interpret it faithfully.
00:43:43.679 --> 00:43:45.920
So you know what I'm saying?
00:43:46.000 --> 00:43:59.840
Like I think that there I do think that voting for a candidate who's going to bring about what I believe this would be scripturally correct as a policy would be the better position, and I do think that most of that is pretty clear in scriptural.
00:44:00.800 --> 00:44:16.400
So um we've probably only got thirty seconds here, but um there are like some churches that like our church would probably our church being first Baptist Church Leesburg uh at at present is pretty politically neutral from the pulpit.
00:44:16.639 --> 00:44:27.360
Um but there are churches that were politically neutral and are now becoming pretty politically charged and are aligning themselves with um with the Republican Party very publicly and very intentionally.
00:44:27.519 --> 00:44:32.480
Um this might be a whole nother topic, but is that uh is that helpful?
00:44:32.880 --> 00:44:35.920
I I don't know that that's helpful um necessarily.
00:44:36.400 --> 00:44:55.039
I mean I think sometimes we are trying in our in our in our attempt to stay um in our attempt to stay neutral, I think sometimes um we we don't I mean uh you know I think sometimes we don't we're not willing to cross certain lines because we want to stay neutral, but like there are some things that are pretty clear.
00:44:55.280 --> 00:45:13.519
Um so I mean so like I think that sometimes that's a problem, but I don't think that and just so that we should be aligning with with a part of the particular party because what ends up happening is we end up you know that that becomes our church or that becomes our God, that that candidate.
00:45:13.679 --> 00:45:15.440
I just I have a I have a big problem with that.
00:45:15.519 --> 00:45:18.960
Like I I don't even like answering the question, are you a Republican or a Democrat?
00:45:19.039 --> 00:45:20.400
Like I'm I'm a follower of Jesus.
00:45:20.559 --> 00:45:36.480
Like I'm I'm gonna vote for that because even within like let's say even within the party, sometimes you look and say, ooh, I don't like this candidate stand on this thing that um because I you know like it's it's not enough.
00:45:36.639 --> 00:45:46.480
It's not enough of being willing to save lives and then to to bring about human flourishing because because politicians capitulate, you know, they they want to get elected, right?
00:45:46.639 --> 00:45:57.440
So um so I I mean so I so I do find it problematic to associate like or to uh to s to go all in on a political party.
00:45:58.719 --> 00:45:59.760
I think so too.
00:45:59.920 --> 00:46:01.679
Um I think so too.
00:46:01.760 --> 00:46:09.679
But I I don't know, I've just um like the churches I've talked to that are doing that, they they they almost not almost they do, they see it as evangelistic.
00:46:09.840 --> 00:46:17.760
Um like if we talk in a partisan way, then non-Christians associated with that party will be drawn to our church, and then we can introduce them to Jesus.
00:46:18.480 --> 00:46:21.440
And I I'd actually never thought about it that way before.
00:46:21.760 --> 00:46:26.960
Not totally sure I'm convinced, but that's that's kind of the stated um thought process there.
00:46:27.440 --> 00:46:28.400
I don't like it.
00:46:29.280 --> 00:46:30.159
Me either.
00:46:30.639 --> 00:46:38.159
So uh anyways, yeah, um vote for policies, vote for a person representing policies that can actually win.
00:46:38.719 --> 00:46:45.280
Yeah, I and I will I will one other thing about this that to go back to like in the very beginning, like we're not get like we're not voting for a pastor, right?
00:46:45.519 --> 00:46:50.079
Um and so like sometimes like yeah, it may not be the character, the public character that we want.
00:46:50.480 --> 00:46:58.079
I actually do think that we need to, and this is another topic for another day, but we really do need to bring back virtue into culture.
00:46:58.639 --> 00:47:08.960
Like we have gone way too far down the road of like say whatever you want, post whatever you want, show whatever you want, and we really do need to have more.
00:47:09.039 --> 00:47:13.599
Uh virtue is not the word, but more um maturity?
00:47:14.079 --> 00:47:20.000
Maturity, yes, but like I'm I can't think of the word, but virtual virals virtue will suffice for now.
00:47:20.079 --> 00:47:22.000
Like we just need more virtue and culture.
00:47:22.880 --> 00:47:26.000
So, anyways, did you uh did you come up with a hot take?
00:47:26.159 --> 00:47:26.960
No, I need you to go first.
00:47:27.199 --> 00:47:29.039
Oh, I gotta think of what mine's simple though.
00:47:29.119 --> 00:47:32.480
Mine is uh mine is that uh Tuesdays are the worst day of the week.
00:47:32.800 --> 00:47:33.199
Really?
00:47:33.440 --> 00:47:33.760
Yes.
00:47:34.000 --> 00:47:34.719
Tell me about it.
00:47:34.960 --> 00:47:37.039
I mean, Monday there's still hope.
00:47:37.360 --> 00:47:38.719
Tuesday there's no hope.
00:47:38.960 --> 00:47:39.440
I see.
00:47:39.920 --> 00:47:49.039
It has nothing to do with the fact that today is Tuesday and that we record this podcast on Tuesdays, but like it's just that historically in my life I have found Tuesdays to be the worst day.
00:47:49.440 --> 00:47:50.159
Interesting.
00:47:50.400 --> 00:47:50.719
Okay.
00:47:51.199 --> 00:47:53.920
Um hot take.
00:47:54.159 --> 00:48:08.880
Uh I uh gosh, I don't really have a hot take, but I'll tell you um, I think as someone who eats meat, I think uh uh eating rice and bean burritos is worth it because it's cheaper.
00:48:09.360 --> 00:48:16.320
That's such a weird thing to say, but I've been eating so many rice and bean burritos because they're like less than half the price of the burritos that include meat.
00:48:16.400 --> 00:48:17.920
So uh thanks, Costco.
00:48:18.159 --> 00:48:21.519
I mean, I love burritos and I don't eat meat, so that's uh yeah, it sounds great.
00:48:21.679 --> 00:48:24.159
I know that's why I thought that's why I thought of that because I was talking to you.
00:48:24.480 --> 00:48:25.119
That's a pretty good one.
00:48:25.280 --> 00:48:27.440
I mean, it's protein in it, so you got what you need.
00:48:27.599 --> 00:48:27.840
Yep.
00:48:28.000 --> 00:48:28.320
Yeah.
00:48:28.559 --> 00:48:28.960
All right.
00:48:29.039 --> 00:48:35.039
Well, this has been the Practical Matters podcast, where we believe that making theology practical matters.
00:48:35.199 --> 00:48:36.400
I am Kevin Saxton.
00:48:36.719 --> 00:48:38.960
This is Garrett, and I'll have a better hot take next time.
00:48:39.519 --> 00:48:41.920
And I am sure to not run out of them.
00:48:42.239 --> 00:48:43.280
See you the next time.
00:48:43.679 --> 00:48:44.159
Bye.
00:00:05.919 --> 00:00:13.759
Greetings and welcome to the Practical Matters Podcast, where we believe that making theology practical matters.
00:00:13.919 --> 00:00:14.960
I'm Kevin Saxton.
00:00:15.359 --> 00:00:16.719
This is Garrett Haywood.
00:00:17.120 --> 00:00:19.359
And it's our eighth episode.
00:00:19.679 --> 00:00:20.239
That's right.
00:00:20.480 --> 00:00:24.559
Sometimes I do go by KB Saxton for the record.
00:00:24.879 --> 00:00:25.359
It's true.
00:00:25.519 --> 00:00:26.399
Just like the rapper.
00:00:26.719 --> 00:00:28.800
Yes, like KB the rapper.
00:00:28.960 --> 00:00:29.359
Exactly.
00:00:29.600 --> 00:00:31.359
KB's a pretty good rapper, actually.
00:00:31.839 --> 00:00:32.079
Yes.
00:00:32.159 --> 00:00:34.399
In the Christian Christian rap world, he's very good.
00:00:34.880 --> 00:00:37.439
You know who else I like is uh no big deal.
00:00:38.079 --> 00:00:39.439
I've never heard of him, actually.
00:00:39.840 --> 00:00:42.240
It's not like the words no big deal.
00:00:42.320 --> 00:00:46.079
It's like no big D Y L or something, and it's all lowercase together.
00:00:46.240 --> 00:00:48.000
Anyways, pretty good Christian rapper.
00:00:48.079 --> 00:00:54.640
Christian rap, it is uh probably the best of the Christian um non-worship genres, I think.
00:00:54.880 --> 00:00:56.000
Is this your hot take already?
00:00:56.159 --> 00:00:56.240
No.
00:00:56.479 --> 00:00:57.119
At the top of the MC?
00:00:57.359 --> 00:01:00.000
No, I I think that was pretty objectively true.
00:01:00.399 --> 00:01:00.719
Okay.
00:01:00.960 --> 00:01:03.359
I I would probably agree with you, actually.
00:01:04.000 --> 00:01:07.760
Anyways, we are gonna talk about four things today.
00:01:07.920 --> 00:01:12.319
Two things that I have brought to the table and two things that you have brought to the table.
00:01:12.480 --> 00:01:15.200
I don't know what you've brought, you don't know what I've brought.
00:01:16.000 --> 00:01:17.760
And I'm just trying to stump you.
00:01:17.920 --> 00:01:19.280
Just kidding, that's not what I'm doing.
00:01:20.000 --> 00:01:22.079
Uh so you want to go first?
00:01:22.480 --> 00:01:23.040
Sure.
00:01:23.359 --> 00:01:29.680
Um yeah, uh, two more uh church-related topics for me today, which is uh no surprise, I suppose.
00:01:29.760 --> 00:01:32.640
But topic number one uh is denominations.
00:01:32.799 --> 00:01:35.120
And so I'd like to hear your thoughts.
00:01:35.200 --> 00:01:49.359
Uh I I guess a little bit on the history of denominations, but really more practically uh what denominations mean for the everyday Christian today, how to choose one, how to think of other denominations, what is the non-denom phenomenon?
00:01:49.519 --> 00:01:59.040
Uh because they all are using the same statement of faith and doing the same programs, they're a quasi-denomination, but um for the everyday Christian, how should they think about Protestant denominations?
00:01:59.439 --> 00:02:02.480
Yeah, that is that is the uh that's a good question.
00:02:02.640 --> 00:02:09.120
The um the non-denominational thing is kind of funny because they have become a denomination by being non-denominational.
00:02:09.599 --> 00:02:15.360
Um and there I I well I think there's I actually think in that camp there is there's like kind of two different things going there.
00:02:15.439 --> 00:02:19.199
I think there's one group that is just basically similar, non-denominational.
00:02:19.599 --> 00:02:27.360
Um they are essentially a denomination, although they claim non-denominational, that's a non-denominational denomination, if that makes sense.
00:02:27.599 --> 00:02:27.840
It does.
00:02:28.000 --> 00:02:36.400
And then I think there are some churches that really are just independent and like not truly non-denominational, it's just an independent church somewhere.
00:02:36.560 --> 00:02:41.599
Um, and it most likely that's a small church doing small church things, I would have to imagine.
00:02:43.520 --> 00:02:44.159
Excuse me.
00:02:44.479 --> 00:02:52.080
You know, I I I it's usually there's some sort of like some sort of like fringe belief, perhaps, or you know, something like that.
00:02:52.159 --> 00:02:53.520
I I don't know.
00:02:53.599 --> 00:02:59.840
But anyways, the denomination thing, um, first off, I I think the denominations are not a problem.
00:03:00.000 --> 00:03:04.400
Um I think sometimes people think, oh, in the Christian church, we can't even get it together because we have all these other denominations.
00:03:04.560 --> 00:03:06.000
I really don't think it's a problem.
00:03:06.159 --> 00:03:11.919
Um, and the reason I don't think it's a problem is because if we believe the gospel, like we believe the most important thing.
00:03:12.080 --> 00:03:20.400
I mean, Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15, I'd remind you of the gospel I preached to you that I um as a that as of first importance.
00:03:20.479 --> 00:03:21.759
So the most important thing.
00:03:21.919 --> 00:03:27.280
And then he goes on to say essentially exactly that Jesus died on the cross of our sins, he was buried and he rose again.
00:03:27.439 --> 00:03:29.680
So the most important thing is the gospel of Jesus.
00:03:29.840 --> 00:03:32.400
Jesus died on the cross of our sins, he was buried and he rose again.
00:03:32.560 --> 00:03:44.639
And so that is the thing that ought to um we ought to build our faith upon is on Jesus' death, burial, and resurrection, and um which we know about because of the Holy Scripture.
00:03:44.800 --> 00:04:04.159
And so we have to believe that whole that the scripture that we have to believe that scripture is um truly inerrant and that it is uh infallible, and that um that it and it's both of those things, you know, that that it is without error and that it's without any sort of um mistake, and it's completely 100% true.
00:04:04.319 --> 00:04:14.159
And then we have to believe that Jesus died on the cross for our sins, was buried, and rose again, which in order to believe that, we've got to believe that there is a God, that he is the God of the Bible, that he is the God that created the universe.
00:04:14.319 --> 00:04:27.600
And so um, so those beliefs all like those two beliefs together are really the things that the kind of the core beliefs of Christianity, um, because in order to believe one, there's so many other things you have to in order to believe the other one of them, there's so many other things you have to believe.
00:04:27.680 --> 00:04:30.959
But those are the core beliefs of Christianity.
00:04:31.600 --> 00:04:45.839
Um I I would put the Trinity in there as well, but um, but I I find it to be um, which we find in the Trinity Trump scripture anyways, but I find one thing I find to be incredibly helpful, and something that I teach my students is um Al Mueller's um theological triage.
00:04:46.240 --> 00:04:49.360
And in theological triage, triage means to sort.
00:04:49.519 --> 00:04:51.680
And um, I learned to triage as a paramedic.
00:04:51.759 --> 00:04:55.680
You know, I've worked as a paramedic for thirt, you know, 21 years, 22 years, whatever it was.
00:04:55.759 --> 00:05:03.120
And like triage is something we do when you show up on an incident and there are a lot of people that are injured, you sort them out, figure out who's the most important to be treated right now.
00:05:04.000 --> 00:05:14.160
Um, we do the same thing with theological concepts, and um tier one theological concepts are the non-negotiables, like these are the things you have to believe to be a Christian.
00:05:14.319 --> 00:05:27.439
It's the inertsy of the word of God, it's that God created the world, it's the Trinity, it's this the gospel of Jesus, um which includes the bodily resurrection, you know.
00:05:27.600 --> 00:05:30.319
So those are those are tier one issues.
00:05:30.560 --> 00:05:41.040
Tier two issues we call denominational distinctives, and those are the things that um we we believe the non-negotiables, but these are things that kind of separate us into these denominations.
00:05:41.120 --> 00:05:57.920
And so um things that we would that that if we believe it, it's hard for us to worship in the same church as somebody who believes something different, um, but we can trust that they are also followers of Jesus because we have these, because we believe these tier one non denominated non- uh non-negotiables.
00:05:58.399 --> 00:06:00.800
I'll see you in heaven one day, but I won't see you at church on Sunday.
00:06:01.120 --> 00:06:02.240
Basically that, yes.
00:06:02.399 --> 00:06:04.480
Um and and I think that it's okay.
00:06:04.560 --> 00:06:19.759
Like I think there are some things that you know that uh sometimes people, you know, the I I think the Bible even talks about, like, you know, it talks about how um some of us have different convictions, you know, like that um that I that I may have a conviction.
00:06:19.839 --> 00:06:32.319
I go back, it goes back to the eating the meat from the you know from the meat market, you know, like it um we may believe different things about it, um, so it may violate my conscience to eat it.
00:06:32.560 --> 00:06:41.279
Um so I think that that there's that scripture always allows for like those slight differences in um thought or belief.
00:06:41.439 --> 00:06:48.079
So um so I think that the the denominational thing, um, the denominational instinctives, I don't think it's a problem.
00:06:48.160 --> 00:06:58.959
I don't think it's a problem because I know that they're gonna be in heaven one day with me, and I know that they're also trying to reach people for Jesus, um, and they're not leading them astray from those non-negoti non-negotiables.
00:06:59.120 --> 00:07:04.319
So um now, of course, I truly believe in the position that I hold within that.
00:07:04.399 --> 00:07:15.199
You know, I I'm convictionally Southern Baptist, so like I I do believe that, but um but I'm not gonna look down on somebody who doesn't um that also still believes those.
00:07:15.519 --> 00:07:18.079
I'm not gonna look down on anybody, but like on those non-negotiables.
00:07:18.160 --> 00:07:23.120
Uh and then the third tier of trial theological triage is just um the personal preferences.
00:07:23.199 --> 00:07:37.040
So it's things that you and I, literally you and I, can disagree on in um, but it's not something that changes anything necessarily about the core of our faith, and it's something that we can think differently on but still worship together in the same church.
00:07:37.279 --> 00:07:50.720
So non-negoti non-negotiables, tier one, um, whether believer or you're not, uh denominational distinctives, tier two, you are um is the thing that kind of we like like you said, I'll see you in heaven, but I won't see you at church.
00:07:50.800 --> 00:07:52.560
Uh tier three, I'll see you at church.
00:07:52.639 --> 00:07:56.959
We just might not agree on this one theological concept, uh, whatever it might be.
00:07:57.120 --> 00:08:01.279
Um, so those the way the denominations came about is really because of some of those beliefs.
00:08:01.439 --> 00:08:05.759
Like it's um and you could look at any of those beliefs.
00:08:05.839 --> 00:08:10.240
One we'll look at so baptism is one of the biggest ones that separates people into these denominational states.
00:08:10.399 --> 00:08:16.800
If people don't really think about that, you go to a Presbyterian church or you go to a Baptist church, you know, you're gonna hear very similar messages.
00:08:16.959 --> 00:08:27.920
So, what is it that is that separate, and I mean, if you want to get in the nitty-gritty of it, there's also a um uh church uh polity involved in that as well.
00:08:28.079 --> 00:08:36.000
But um, but the but you're gonna hear a similar message, but we might think differently on um the way that baptism is supposed to work.
00:08:36.159 --> 00:08:45.440
So I believe in baptism, believers' baptism by immersion, that a person gets baptized once they are a believer in Jesus, because that's the pattern we see throughout scripture.
00:08:45.600 --> 00:08:54.960
So you get baptized by immersion, meaning you go all the way under the water, which is literally what the word um baptizo in the Greek means is uh immerse.
00:08:55.120 --> 00:09:35.279
And so um, so as a as a baptist, I believe that uh in believers baptism by immersion, but you but I don't believe that that saves you, and so that's what makes it a denominational distinctive and not a um non-negotiable, but um but somebody who is Presbyterian, for example, may believe in um some element of infant baptism or sprinkling, or you know, which you could look in the history of sprinkling, it really came up um like centuries ago um as a kind of a uh a way to baptize somebody on their deathbed, um, but then it just kind of became mainstream with within the church.
00:09:35.440 --> 00:09:59.039
So, I mean, so though you there's a lot of history to how things have become the way they are, but the main thing for us now is like what what does the Bible say and how do I best believe the Bible, and then how do I go to a church that faithfully believes the same thing, um, which is tricky because also like I'm not trying to fit a church into or the Bible even into what I feel comfortable believing.
00:09:59.200 --> 00:10:01.519
I want to believe what the Bible has to say.
00:10:02.000 --> 00:10:04.000
Um, and that's another thing, too.
00:10:04.159 --> 00:10:10.000
Like there are churches out there that um that are capitulating to the culture because that's what they're doing.
00:10:10.240 --> 00:10:28.480
And so you have to also be aware of uh of the fact that there are entire denominations at some points that are doing that, and I think that's moving them from I think they're actually affecting their non-negotiable status, you know, they're becoming churches that are not full of believers, but churches that are full of people just kind of gathering, um, which is a shame.
00:10:28.559 --> 00:10:41.039
And it's I think it's a I think it's the work of the devil because it's just lulling people into sleep to sleep, thinking they're just checking a box and they're not truly actually believing the gospel or going to heaven, and it's um it's the Lord, Lord, people.
00:10:41.360 --> 00:10:43.440
Um depart from me, I never knew you.
00:10:44.320 --> 00:10:46.240
Which is this is so sad.
00:10:46.639 --> 00:10:55.039
Um but so I don't know how like you know that it it's hard to go through like a history of like, well, this is where the Methodists came from, this is where the Lutherans came from.
00:10:55.200 --> 00:10:57.759
But I mean, but those are the things that separate us.
00:10:57.840 --> 00:11:11.840
And so if you're gonna if you're choosing a church, you have to you you kind of need to look at what does what does the Bible say, and then what denomination do I think is capturing that the best the best way possible.
00:11:12.080 --> 00:11:14.000
Um which I mean there are a lot of stuff.
00:11:14.080 --> 00:11:18.080
I mean, non-denominational is incredibly similar to Baptist, like just in some of them, yeah, yeah.
00:11:18.159 --> 00:11:21.840
Some of them I mean the the but as a mainstream it is incredibly similar.
00:11:22.000 --> 00:11:37.279
So um because Baptist churches are not there's not a hierarchy of Baptist churches, there's not like the Baptist, you know, president somewhere that's you know passing down all the I mean they're I see in terms of the local church autonomy, yes.
00:11:37.519 --> 00:11:57.840
Yes, so each each church is it an independent church that then chooses to cooperate with a Baptist you know alliance of some sort, and there are over 250 different Baptist streams, you know, there's two main streams if you're gonna do Baptist history, but like there's um but there's over 250 different Baptist organizations, you know, Baptist denominations, so to speak.
00:11:58.000 --> 00:12:04.080
So like just because something is someone is Baptist does not mean that they are exactly the same as all the others, too.
00:12:04.240 --> 00:12:11.039
So like it's it's very it's complicated and convoluted, but the the biggest thing is does this church faithfully teach the Bible?
00:12:11.200 --> 00:12:12.960
Does this church believe the gospel?
00:12:13.120 --> 00:12:16.000
And is this church seeking to follow what scriptures say?
00:12:16.320 --> 00:12:16.879
Yeah.
00:12:17.279 --> 00:12:23.919
I think your starting point of saying that it's denominations are not a problem is very helpful because I think they're often viewed in that way.
00:12:24.000 --> 00:12:25.840
And so I would agree they're not a problem.
00:12:25.919 --> 00:12:28.240
Um I'm glad you brought up theological triage.
00:12:28.399 --> 00:12:38.799
If you didn't, I was going to I I taught a membership class at our church two days ago, and every time I teach the class, I talk about theological triage um and kind of why we are uh Southern Baptist.
00:12:39.039 --> 00:12:42.080
That's that's a helpful tool if you haven't seen that tool before.
00:12:42.320 --> 00:12:47.360
Um we probably should move on to another topic, but I'll ask one last question.
00:12:47.519 --> 00:12:50.799
Um, is Catholicism a denomination?
00:12:51.919 --> 00:12:55.519
I I think Catholicism is a denomination.
00:12:56.320 --> 00:13:08.960
Um I think Catholicism is Catholicism is a little tricky because um there are a lot of the non-nego non-negotiables that Catholicism um believes and upholds.
00:13:09.279 --> 00:13:17.919
The problem the problem is that there's a lot of other things that are put into that category within the Catholic Church that are simply not that don't belong in the category of non-negotiable.
00:13:18.320 --> 00:13:25.759
And I think that like so basically I I think that it is possible within the Catholic Church to come to faith in Jesus Christ.
00:13:25.840 --> 00:13:27.120
I I think that is possible.
00:13:27.200 --> 00:13:36.480
I think that there are some Catholic priests that are faithfully teaching the scriptures and um and leading people to follow Christ.
00:13:36.559 --> 00:13:53.679
But I think that the Catholic Church as a whole, I think there's a lot of um theological error because they equate um theological or history, basically, or practice is equated with scripture.
00:13:54.000 --> 00:13:57.039
And so that is one of the I think the biggest problems.
00:13:57.200 --> 00:14:07.679
And and so for a lot of people, the Catholic Church has actually become a works-based religion as opposed to a grace-based religion, and I don't think that is true Christianity.
00:14:08.000 --> 00:14:13.919
Um, which I mean, this it shouldn't surprise anyone for me to say that because I mean I'm a part of a Protestant denomination.
00:14:14.159 --> 00:14:18.559
Protestant denominations arose out of a protest of what the Catholic Church was doing.
00:14:18.639 --> 00:14:20.480
That's literally how the name came about.
00:14:20.799 --> 00:14:35.679
So it wouldn't it shouldn't surprise anyone for me to say that um that Catholicism is not doing it right, um, in my understanding of scripture and my understanding of the Bible, and um obviously many, many others, because that's why we protest.
00:14:36.799 --> 00:14:37.919
No, that's a good way to put it.
00:14:38.080 --> 00:14:40.000
I'm glad you brought up the root word of protest.
00:14:40.159 --> 00:14:44.799
Um I would agree that uh you can come to faith in in in a Catholic church.
00:14:44.960 --> 00:14:52.080
Um that said though, I think I think Catholic doctrine correctly articulated and understood is not salvific.
00:14:52.159 --> 00:14:53.919
That is that's what we were protesting against.
00:14:54.159 --> 00:14:54.399
Right.
00:14:54.559 --> 00:15:02.000
And so um there's enough there, I think that someone could come to faith, but after you come to faith, you go go join a Protestant church.
00:15:02.159 --> 00:15:02.559
Yes.
00:15:02.879 --> 00:15:15.600
So uh I j I just think it's tricky when like the everyday Christian is is like, well, there's all these denominations, Baptists and Presbyterians and Catholics, and I'm like, Well, that last one I think is is is in a whole category of its own, a whole league of its own.
00:15:15.679 --> 00:15:28.559
So um anyways, that's uh Well, you would put you would put Catholicism with other liturgical um traditions like Episcopalian and Anglican, like they're not truly Protestant.
00:15:29.039 --> 00:15:30.000
In what way?
00:15:30.320 --> 00:15:45.279
So they I mean, although they are um although they are separate from the Catholic Church, Episcopalian and Anglican, which Anglican is the Church of England, are essentially just um just offshoots of the Catholic Church.
00:15:45.360 --> 00:15:55.039
They're not they're not the Protestant movement is kind of a Martin Luther never when he started the Protestant movement, never intended to separate from the Catholic Church.
00:15:55.279 --> 00:15:55.600
Right.
00:15:56.080 --> 00:15:59.120
But ultimately that's what happened in the Protestant movement.
00:15:59.279 --> 00:16:13.840
I think that um that the way that the Episcopalian and um and Anglican churches were and and uh some Orthodox churches even, it's more of a trying to just fix the Catholic Church in a way.
00:16:14.320 --> 00:16:17.440
So it's so yes, it is not a part of the Catholic Church.
00:16:17.679 --> 00:16:23.600
So technically, I guess you could say they are also protesting, but I think that really what they're trying to do is just fix the Catholic Church.
00:16:24.240 --> 00:16:28.799
Um so I don't think it's as separate as Protestant denominations.
00:16:29.039 --> 00:16:31.759
So I would not put those into category of Protestant denominations.
00:16:32.080 --> 00:16:32.320
Okay.
00:16:32.879 --> 00:16:43.039
Um which is why I don't think of Catholicism as its own kind of I think of it in the category of those other liturgical type um uh denominations.
00:16:43.840 --> 00:17:02.799
It's the it's the reformation principle of um simper reformanda, which is always reforming, and to be always basically the reformation is not over, but to always be reforming is to not we're not always creating something new, we're always calling God's people back to something old, the faith once for all delivered to the saints.
00:17:03.039 --> 00:17:10.720
And so as the church drifts, we're we are simple reformanda, we're constantly reforming the church and calling the church back to something old.
00:17:11.039 --> 00:17:16.000
I just thought of that when you said Luther's original intent was not to uh not to break from the Catholic Church.
00:17:16.079 --> 00:17:19.359
He wanted to call the Catholic Church, which at the time was just the church, right?
00:17:19.599 --> 00:17:23.920
He wanted to call the church back to uh the faith once for all uh delivered to the saints.
00:17:24.079 --> 00:17:35.759
So um I think even in the Southern Baptist Convention, Presbyterianism, Methodism, Lutheranism, you name it, uh we're always reforming, we're always calling our churches back to uh the the true faith.
00:17:36.000 --> 00:17:38.480
So um good stuff.
00:17:38.640 --> 00:17:39.519
Yeah, good stuff.
00:17:39.680 --> 00:17:40.000
Yeah.
00:17:40.240 --> 00:17:43.119
We got a hard, hard deadline here, so let's keep it.
00:17:43.279 --> 00:17:44.480
Let's keep it, let's keep the show moving.
00:17:44.799 --> 00:17:46.480
Helps the folks that are listening.
00:17:46.720 --> 00:17:47.599
That's that's true.
00:17:47.839 --> 00:17:54.960
Um all right, so you uh you preached on Psalm 139 on Sunday, and our church is in the middle of the songs of the summer.
00:17:55.039 --> 00:17:57.519
I think we're going into week 13 of songs this summer, right?
00:17:57.759 --> 00:17:58.000
Yep.
00:17:58.079 --> 00:18:00.160
This coming Sunday is the last Sunday in the series.
00:18:00.400 --> 00:18:06.799
Yeah, so um so you preached on Psalm 139, which is traditionally a very pro-life psalm, right?
00:18:06.880 --> 00:18:10.799
So like um I I praise you for I'm Fearfully and Wonderfully Made.
00:18:11.039 --> 00:18:14.799
Um, you knit me together in my mother's womb.
00:18:14.880 --> 00:18:16.880
Like, you know, like there's some very important things in there.
00:18:17.039 --> 00:18:38.000
But um the thing that struck me and that always strikes me a little bit with the Psalms uh is uh is the discussion of hate at the end, um, where and I'm sure you haven't memorized because you always do, but like um where um where he where David is basically saying, like, I hate these people, like I hate your enemies, I hate these people.
00:18:38.160 --> 00:18:46.400
And you addressed it um a little bit on Sunday, but like the so the practical question for me is can I hate evildoers?
00:18:46.640 --> 00:18:51.759
And we always go back to the oh well hate the you know, hate the sin, love the sinner.
00:18:51.920 --> 00:18:58.799
Um but like if somebody does something god-awful to one of my family members, can I hate them?
00:18:59.759 --> 00:19:01.039
Yeah, it's a good question.
00:19:01.279 --> 00:19:08.319
Um so the the context was uh Psalm 139, uh verses 19 through 22.
00:19:08.640 --> 00:19:11.039
Uh it's a 24-verse Psalm.
00:19:11.279 --> 00:19:15.440
Um and the first 18 verses are very uh God focused.
00:19:15.680 --> 00:19:18.720
God knows everything, God exists everywhere, God creates everyone.
00:19:18.880 --> 00:19:21.519
The last two verses are are pretty well-known verses as well.
00:19:21.680 --> 00:19:24.400
God search me, reveal to me grievous ways within me.
00:19:24.640 --> 00:19:27.119
But it's those those four verses, 19 through 22.
00:19:27.200 --> 00:19:30.640
David takes a very sudden dark turn and then breaks from it.
00:19:30.880 --> 00:19:33.599
It's just like a very a very interesting commercial break.
00:19:33.680 --> 00:19:38.720
And he's like, God, there's all these bloodthirsty men, and I hate them, I loathe them.
00:19:38.960 --> 00:19:40.720
He just doubles down on it in verse 22.
00:19:40.799 --> 00:19:42.240
He's like, I hate them completely.
00:19:42.319 --> 00:19:43.680
I I can't stand them.
00:19:43.920 --> 00:19:46.000
And um, so I I addressed it.
00:19:46.079 --> 00:19:50.640
Um that was interestingly the hardest section to preach.
00:19:50.880 --> 00:19:51.119
Yes.
00:19:51.279 --> 00:19:57.519
Um, I was expecting verses 13 to 18 to be the hardest section, um, but I really enjoyed that section.
00:19:57.599 --> 00:19:58.880
I enjoyed all of it, you know what I mean.
00:19:59.039 --> 00:20:07.440
But um those four verses were the hardest section, and so I I basically like did some digging and uh appreciate the way that uh David Guzick preached it.
00:20:07.519 --> 00:20:11.839
Uh G-U-Z-I-K, if you're not familiar with him, uh I enjoy his preaching a lot.
00:20:12.000 --> 00:20:21.759
And um so I when I when I referenced someone from the pulpit, I try not to name drop, so I said in that section three different times, like one theologian said this, or one preacher said this.
00:20:21.920 --> 00:20:28.160
I was basically just talking about Guzick the whole time, uh, because he his perspective was the most helpful one I found.
00:20:28.319 --> 00:20:35.759
Um and he basically said uh the old cliche um, you know, hate the sin without hating the sinner.
00:20:35.839 --> 00:20:46.880
Uh he did quote George Horne, which said, Um, you know, it you shouldn't love the sin on behalf of the sinner who's committing the sin, but you also shouldn't uh hate the sinner on behalf of the sin that they're committing.
00:20:46.960 --> 00:20:51.519
So just a longer way of saying hate the sin without hating the sinner.
00:20:51.759 --> 00:20:57.279
And um I found that helpful because he he concluded by saying um we do this every day with ourselves.
00:20:57.440 --> 00:21:00.880
We hate the sin that we commit, uh yet we love ourselves anyway.
00:21:00.960 --> 00:21:05.119
And I just I thought that was a helpful, uh helpful thing for our people to think about.
00:21:05.359 --> 00:21:17.759
At the same time, I felt incomplete in that section because there are verses in the scriptures, uh, Psalm 5.5, where uh God talks about like we always think, you know, uh God doesn't hate people, he hates the sin people commit.
00:21:17.839 --> 00:21:20.640
Well in Psalm 5.5 it says God hates the evildoer.
00:21:20.720 --> 00:21:25.119
Like God doesn't hate the evil the evildoer's doing, God hates the evildoer themselves.
00:21:25.359 --> 00:21:30.799
Um and so I I I felt incomplete in in my preaching of that section.
00:21:30.960 --> 00:21:40.400
Um I did think of uh I I referenced Christ's teaching in Matthew 5 44 about you know, love our enemies and pray for those who persecute you.
00:21:40.559 --> 00:21:44.960
There's also a section in the Sermon on the Mount that says, if you hate someone in your heart, it's as good as murder.
00:21:45.519 --> 00:21:52.000
Um and so what is David doing there when he when he's hating uh when he's hating the evildoer?
00:21:52.160 --> 00:21:53.759
Um I I I don't know.
00:21:53.839 --> 00:22:05.119
I I I don't um I don't think we can I I think hate is a I I don't know.
00:22:05.279 --> 00:22:07.200
I I don't think hate is a place where we should live.
00:22:07.279 --> 00:22:09.440
I think it's a natural human emotion.
00:22:09.519 --> 00:22:13.519
Like you used the extreme example of someone harmed your family, you wouldn't just hate the harm they did.
00:22:13.599 --> 00:22:14.559
You might hate that person.
00:22:14.720 --> 00:22:16.079
I don't know that we could live there.
00:22:16.240 --> 00:22:26.160
Um I think at some point we would have to we'd have to exit our hatred and forgive that person without forgetting, without you know, r releasing them from the consequences.
00:22:26.319 --> 00:22:35.279
But um I the Psalms are a lot of natural human emotions, and that was what I was feeling from David in in those four verses.
00:22:35.440 --> 00:22:42.799
He just was so enthralled by who God is, and then he just took a sudden turn of like I hate the people who aren't enthralled with you like I am.
00:22:42.960 --> 00:22:45.359
Um But I I don't think you can live there.
00:22:45.440 --> 00:22:49.119
I think you you should love your enemies, not hate them, and pray for those who persecute you.
00:22:49.279 --> 00:22:51.119
Hate is like murder.
00:22:51.359 --> 00:22:58.640
Um so I I think I guess I would land in in the camp of like it's a natural thing to hate someone.
00:22:58.720 --> 00:23:02.799
I don't know that it's good or somewhere you should stay, um, if that makes sense.
00:23:02.880 --> 00:23:15.440
But yes, we did talk about it Sunday, and I felt like I gave people some things to think about, but I don't think I gave them everything to think about on the topic of hatred from the pulpit, because I only had 30 minutes to talk about 24 verses, so we kept going there.
00:23:15.599 --> 00:23:18.799
But um any anyways, you have thoughts on hatred?
00:23:19.519 --> 00:23:40.160
I mean, I I I think about hatred all the time, like and and I think about it because the Bible talks about it, and it's because of those passages of the Psalms where it talks about um what David or the psalmist, whoever it may be, talks about hating the enemies of God, um, and like you mentioned, God hating the evildoer.
00:23:40.559 --> 00:23:48.160
Um, but then you look at those New Testaments, uh, those New Testament passages, and you see, you know, love your enemies, pray for those who persecute you.
00:23:48.240 --> 00:23:54.640
Um, you see in First John, you know, like if you say you hate your brother, that you love God, that you're a liar.
00:23:54.960 --> 00:24:06.559
Um But on a lot of those um But even and even in the Sermon on the Mount where he says Um that if you that hating he it actually talks about hate is and murder it's talking about your brother.
00:24:06.720 --> 00:24:10.400
It says if you hate your brother, it's um it's as good as murder.
00:24:10.559 --> 00:24:16.480
Um so I wonder true, I wonder if like if there is some sort of distinction.
00:24:16.559 --> 00:24:20.319
Now now practically we obviously know that hate is bad for your heart.
00:24:20.559 --> 00:24:25.039
Um that hate can just it it drags you into a dark, dark place.
00:24:25.200 --> 00:24:26.640
So like hate is bad for us.
00:24:26.799 --> 00:24:29.680
So if we harbor hate, it is bad for us.
00:24:29.839 --> 00:24:42.720
Except that God has hate, you know, so like there's gotta be there's gotta be some way, like sometimes when I say, Oh, I really hate that, and then people are like, Oh, you shouldn't hate, it's like, ah God hates.
00:24:42.960 --> 00:25:05.119
And so I think that there are appropriate things for us to hate, uh, like sin and and tragedy and you know, and just the some of those terrible things that happen in the world, but I have to imagine that there are also times where it's not wrong to hate somebody.
00:25:05.759 --> 00:25:16.480
Well, I think um something helpful might be you know, philosophically I'm not convinced that uh hate is the antithesis of love is the opposite of love.
00:25:16.880 --> 00:25:18.319
I think that's naturally where our mind goes to the state.
00:25:18.480 --> 00:25:19.920
Well that I think that probably is the problem.
00:25:20.079 --> 00:25:20.240
Yeah.
00:25:20.559 --> 00:25:23.359
But I think the opposite of love is lust, I think.
00:25:23.440 --> 00:25:26.720
Uh I think lusting after something is the antithesis of loving.
00:25:27.359 --> 00:25:45.519
And if if you if you divorce or not divorce, but if you um think of hate not as the opposite of love, but as something that's uh is actually um can can go along with love, compatible with love, uh then you can see God as a being that can hate.
00:25:45.680 --> 00:25:54.799
Um but I think we in our human minds with our limited language, we sometimes struggle with God hating because we think of hate as the opposite of love, but I'm not sure that it is.
00:25:55.200 --> 00:25:57.440
No, that and that's that's very wise.
00:25:58.319 --> 00:25:58.960
Absolutely.
00:25:59.119 --> 00:26:11.119
I mean, that's a very good point because we're we're working with our English language um limitations and not you know, we and and our human finite limitations.
00:26:11.440 --> 00:26:14.319
So we're not thinking of things the way that God is thinking of things.
00:26:14.559 --> 00:26:25.119
Um and I also think you know there there are times, I think we've talked before, like there are times where um uh or we've uh maybe we haven't talked about this here.
00:26:25.200 --> 00:26:42.960
I've just talked about oh, time to be at work, uh, or I've talked about it recently where um where God has uh where he talks about in like Romans, where he talks about like there's there's um people created basically for destruction, you know, like there's people who um they were they were never going to be saved.
00:26:43.039 --> 00:26:52.319
And this is a whole other conversation, you know, but um to unpack that uh that aspect of Romans, but we're called to just love our neighbor, so because we don't know.
00:26:52.559 --> 00:27:15.839
So like I I could you know I can meet someone who's one of the who's done some of the worst things and think, well, surely this is one of those people that God you know is destined for destruction, so I can go ahead and hate them, except that I don't know, and that person can come to faith the next day, and you know, Paul was a pretty bad guy, Saul, Paul, whatever, was a pretty bad guy when he's going around killing folks, you know.
00:27:16.079 --> 00:27:18.400
So, um, but he came to faith of Christ.
00:27:18.480 --> 00:27:36.559
So I I think that the problem is that sometimes we try and be the judge, we try and be the one to determine like, is this someone that I should hate, or is this someone that um that I should love when we don't know what is ultimately going to happen and we don't know ultimately what God's intention or what God's purpose is for that person.
00:27:37.200 --> 00:27:42.880
I think the the Romans reference is helpful because it's you know, Jacob have I loved, Esau have I hated.
00:27:43.119 --> 00:27:43.359
Right.
00:27:43.519 --> 00:27:46.960
Um that's a helpful that's a helpful reference.
00:27:47.039 --> 00:27:47.200
Yeah.
00:27:47.519 --> 00:27:52.880
Well I th well I think in that instance it's kind of why people think love and hate are opposites.
00:27:53.279 --> 00:27:53.920
But they're not.
00:27:54.160 --> 00:27:54.319
Right.
00:27:54.400 --> 00:28:01.599
But I'm saying but I'm saying like when they're when it's when it's um juxtaposed like that, like because they're using the same sentence together.
00:28:02.000 --> 00:28:02.079
Right.
00:28:02.559 --> 00:28:02.880
Right.
00:28:03.599 --> 00:28:05.039
So I don't know.
00:28:05.200 --> 00:28:05.839
Did we solve it?
00:28:06.160 --> 00:28:09.039
I I don't know that we ever but I honestly I don't know if we can.
00:28:09.119 --> 00:28:20.559
But I think I I think that the that practically, like, we just have to remember that yes, God hates and we should hate sin, but also like if we go around just dwelling on hate, it's gonna make us into a really rotten person.
00:28:20.799 --> 00:28:23.920
Yeah, I think that's the probably the practical place I would land is just don't live there.
00:28:24.000 --> 00:28:26.799
Um you know, try to try to move on quick quickly.
00:28:26.880 --> 00:28:32.079
Um forgive and forget's not physically possible, but uh forgive and move on um is good.
00:28:33.359 --> 00:28:34.240
Indeed, indeed.
00:28:34.559 --> 00:28:35.200
Is it my turn?
00:28:35.440 --> 00:28:35.599
Yeah.
00:28:35.759 --> 00:28:36.160
Oh yeah.
00:28:36.319 --> 00:28:39.759
Um uh church hurt is my second topic.
00:28:40.000 --> 00:28:40.240
Okay.
00:28:40.559 --> 00:28:46.880
Um basically uh you hear the phrase church hurt thrown around a lot.
00:28:47.119 --> 00:28:49.440
Um uh what is it?
00:28:49.599 --> 00:28:51.599
How should the everyday Christian think about it?
00:28:51.680 --> 00:28:58.480
Uh when uh does a church actually hurt somebody, and how should the everyday Christian respond?
00:28:58.720 --> 00:29:07.440
When when is church hurt being used incorrectly and someone should really just change their perspective or their attitude?
00:29:07.680 --> 00:29:11.599
Um church hurt is just a phrase that's often used by the everyday Christian.
00:29:11.759 --> 00:29:12.960
I'm curious what you think about it.
00:29:13.680 --> 00:29:13.920
Sure.
00:29:14.000 --> 00:29:18.720
So church when someone says church hurt, they usually mean like something that something has happened in the church.
00:29:18.799 --> 00:29:25.440
You know, some something has happened in the church that has hurt me and it's it's you know kind of jaded me towards the church.
00:29:25.759 --> 00:29:36.240
And I think that I think that that's kind of a it's understandable how that would happen sometimes because we we expect, okay, this is the church of Jesus Christ.
00:29:36.480 --> 00:29:38.319
Jesus is the perfect Son of God.
00:29:38.480 --> 00:29:43.519
Um the church should be, you know, somewhere where I can feel safe and feel you know well cared for.
00:29:43.680 --> 00:29:57.200
And that's obviously what we as you know people that are in church leadership want is for um for that to be the case, but it's not always the case because the church is also administered by a bunch of imperfect people.
00:29:57.440 --> 00:30:07.039
Um and so your expectations will not always be perfectly met, which is part of the problem, because sometimes we have unrealistic expectations.
00:30:07.279 --> 00:30:22.720
But um, but it's also understandable why like why that could potentially come up as like you know, as as why we would get so hurt, because we've made ourselves more vulnerable than we might in a in the general population and the general you know public, um, because we're the church.
00:30:22.799 --> 00:30:29.119
And so we made ourselves more vulnerable, and then something has happened that has called us caused us to um to be hurt.
00:30:29.200 --> 00:30:30.880
So you could kind of understand how that happens.
00:30:30.960 --> 00:31:04.640
And but also I want to differentiate between um what I would consider like true heinousness in the church, yes, like somebody that you know, if you were abused by someone in church leadership, like physically abused in some way, assaulted, um demeaned, like intentionally, like there's there are legitimate, like that, that's a different thing, you know, like you were extorted, you were, you know, like the there are there are ways that the church truly, truly hurts that you can't call anything but that.
00:31:04.720 --> 00:31:11.920
And it's but it's things that all of us would denounce, you know, and say, um, that's not just a simple mistake made by a church leader.
00:31:12.079 --> 00:31:15.759
That's something that's that's a wolf eating sheep.
00:31:15.839 --> 00:31:19.039
You know, that's that's not what's supposed to, that's not what's supposed to happen.
00:31:19.519 --> 00:31:20.319
I hate that.
00:31:20.480 --> 00:31:21.680
That's a call, that's a callback.
00:31:21.920 --> 00:31:22.240
There you go.
00:31:22.400 --> 00:31:24.079
But I do, I like I hate that.
00:31:24.240 --> 00:31:26.880
Like that's terrible, like that should never happen.
00:31:27.039 --> 00:31:28.000
Um, but it does.
00:31:28.160 --> 00:31:29.680
And that is understandable.
00:31:29.839 --> 00:31:35.440
That's an understandable way that you could say you've been hurt by the church when reality you've actually been hurt by a person.
00:31:35.599 --> 00:31:39.279
It's just a problem, is that person was representing the church.
00:31:39.440 --> 00:31:41.039
And so that's where that becomes problematic.
00:31:41.119 --> 00:31:42.960
So I think, but I think that's one category.
00:31:43.039 --> 00:31:47.359
Like that's um that's something different than what a lot of people refer to when they say church hurt.
00:31:47.440 --> 00:31:57.200
When they a lot of people, when they say church hurt, is because most likely someone in the church, a church leader, uh, a you know, an influential church member, did something that was like a mistake.
00:31:57.359 --> 00:32:05.039
They did something to embarrass somebody, they did something to um to not meet an expectation, you know, whatever that may be.
00:32:05.200 --> 00:32:15.279
Um, that you know, I really wanted to serve in this ministry position, they told me no, or you know, I'm not and I don't want to downplay any of it because it's real, like people really do feel that way.
00:32:15.440 --> 00:32:29.839
But I think that what we have to recognize is if we're not talking about that category of true abuse, what we have to recognize is that we're dealing with fallible humans, not the infallible God, um, directly as people in the church.
00:32:29.920 --> 00:32:33.519
And so we have to be able to look past simple mistakes.
00:32:33.680 --> 00:32:41.839
Now, sometimes it does mean we need to go find a new church, but I think what it shouldn't do is it shouldn't cause us to not ever go to church.
00:32:42.000 --> 00:32:46.160
You know, like hey, this church, I really feel like they didn't like understand me.
00:32:46.240 --> 00:32:47.759
There wasn't a way for me to really plug in.
00:32:47.839 --> 00:32:52.880
There wasn't a way for me to actually serve in that church just because of the way that this person thought about me or whatever.
00:32:53.039 --> 00:32:56.000
Instead of saying, well, I now I have church hurt and I'm gonna stay home forever.
00:32:56.079 --> 00:33:07.279
Um, we ought to be like, let me go find a church that I can contribute to, that I can plug into, that you know, if if we really feel like we're being neglected or whatever, I mean, and that that's the attitude that we should have.
00:33:07.359 --> 00:33:13.440
And I I so I think a lot of that just needs to be looked over as it needs to be looked at with grace.
00:33:13.599 --> 00:33:15.359
Like these are not perfect people.
00:33:15.519 --> 00:33:18.960
And yes, this situation was not favorable to me, and it was hurtful.
00:33:19.039 --> 00:33:22.559
Like it legitimately, some of these situations are truly hurtful.
00:33:22.799 --> 00:33:35.359
Um, but I think sometimes we just need to understand that we're not dealing with God in those situations, we're dealing with people, and we need to give it to God, and we need to move on.
00:33:35.680 --> 00:33:36.000
Yeah.
00:33:36.160 --> 00:33:38.079
No, I think that was well said.
00:33:38.240 --> 00:33:42.319
Um I think you've already like set aside heinous things in its own category.
00:33:42.400 --> 00:33:47.519
You know, someone who does one of those things should be arrested, imprisoned, never allowed back into the ministry.
00:33:47.599 --> 00:33:50.000
Like I I I have a very hard line with those items.
00:33:50.160 --> 00:33:50.400
Yes.
00:33:50.640 --> 00:33:57.279
Um, but when it comes to you said it well also that the church is being led by fallible humans.
00:33:57.359 --> 00:34:00.319
You know, I I I am a pastor, I'm a fallible human.
00:34:00.400 --> 00:34:03.599
I will say something or do something that will hurt somebody one day if I haven't already.
00:34:03.759 --> 00:34:10.639
Or I will fail to say something or fail to do something that will uh hurt somebody one day, and I would like a chance to make it right.
00:34:10.800 --> 00:34:15.119
And uh wherever you go to church, your pastor would like a chance to uh make it right.
00:34:15.199 --> 00:34:19.360
And I just find it problematic when, you know, it's it happens from time to time.
00:34:19.519 --> 00:34:34.559
I'll talk to somebody who's visiting our church, and they're like, Well, I went, uh you know, I was in this state, and I went to this church and this church and this church, but they kept, you know, this church hurt me for this reason, this one hurt me for this reason, and now I'm here, and this is the third church I've tried because this one hurt me and this one hurt me.
00:34:34.719 --> 00:34:38.880
And I was like, Well, there's a common denominator here, yeah, and it's you.
00:34:39.039 --> 00:34:39.280
Right.
00:34:39.519 --> 00:34:42.480
So give it three months, and we're gonna hurt you as well, and you'll be gone.
00:34:42.559 --> 00:34:44.079
And sure enough, that's what happens.
00:34:44.159 --> 00:34:48.880
And so that's just that's not good for your soul, that's not good for your family.
00:34:48.960 --> 00:34:55.840
Like, give give the give the leadership a chance to you know make things right and um and stick it out.
00:34:56.159 --> 00:35:03.760
Unless it's heinous and horrible when that's we've already established that, but um you know stick it out and have some have some grace and patience.
00:35:03.840 --> 00:35:08.239
And um I'm not on a soapbox right now, like I don't have some sort of issue going on behind the scenes.
00:35:08.400 --> 00:35:14.559
I just you know I've seen that pattern over the years, and I think for the everyday Christian, thinking rightly about church hurt is helpful.
00:35:14.639 --> 00:35:26.000
So well, if you if you think about like Jesus in Matthew 18, where he talks about solving conflict, you know, where we're supposed to go to the person, go with a witness, go to the church, which you know means go to the leadership of the church.
00:35:26.159 --> 00:35:30.079
Um, in some cases may actually be the leadership of the church.
00:35:30.320 --> 00:35:42.239
Um Jesus is like Jesus himself in before the uh um before the establishment of the of the church on this earth really is saying, Hey, things are gonna happen in the church.
00:35:42.400 --> 00:35:46.639
Like it's not always gonna be perfect because we're dealing with people, but here's how you handle it.
00:35:46.880 --> 00:35:52.079
And I I do think that a lot of people don't take that first step of, hey man, this person hurt me.
00:35:52.159 --> 00:36:10.880
I should go to them and be like, hey, you know, when you when you didn't acknowledge that, you know, that this happened or that, or when you know you you were kind of callous in this, the way you spoke about this thing, you know, which which is always I'm I'm thinking it's probably always going to be unintentional by the church leadership or by the you know the the person within the church for the most part.
00:36:10.960 --> 00:36:14.000
You know, I want to think the best about people, not think the worst about people.
00:36:14.239 --> 00:36:22.159
So um my but I think that first step is so important, but that first step is often not taken when we're claiming church hurt.
00:36:22.559 --> 00:36:24.000
Yeah, I I can't I'm kind of weird.
00:36:24.079 --> 00:36:31.840
Like I'm I'm actually encouraged by conflict in in a weird way because conflict, if it's synonymous with friction, friction is is a result of movement.
00:36:32.079 --> 00:36:38.079
Like if there's if there's friction, if there's conflict, it's probably because your church is trying to accomplish something and trying to go somewhere.
00:36:38.480 --> 00:36:44.400
Um if there's no friction, no conflict, it's probably uh a a sign of stagnation and complacency.
00:36:44.559 --> 00:36:45.679
Not always, but generally.
00:36:45.840 --> 00:36:48.079
And so I actually don't mind conflict.
00:36:48.239 --> 00:36:50.480
Um, but let's resolve it and stick it out.
00:36:50.639 --> 00:36:53.119
Let's not you know claim church hurt and leave.
00:36:53.199 --> 00:36:56.800
So uh I just think that that that's a helpful, helpful conversation.
00:36:57.039 --> 00:36:57.280
Yeah.
00:36:57.440 --> 00:36:59.360
So last one.
00:36:59.679 --> 00:37:00.079
For sure.
00:37:00.320 --> 00:37:01.519
So all right.
00:37:01.840 --> 00:37:07.840
Um last week we vote was the pro primary voting here in the state of Florida, the free state of Florida.
00:37:08.480 --> 00:37:13.679
Um and we'll have the midterm elections coming up in November.
00:37:13.920 --> 00:37:17.679
Uh and we've talked about voting before, like, should a Christian vote, right?
00:37:17.840 --> 00:37:19.920
That was that was one of our topics previously.
00:37:20.079 --> 00:37:25.760
Um, but like, how do I figure out who to vote for as a Christian?
00:37:26.079 --> 00:37:28.400
So we're gonna use the assumption that we should vote.
00:37:28.719 --> 00:37:30.960
That's kind of what we came up with when we talked about it.
00:37:31.199 --> 00:37:38.320
Um because we're in favor of human flourishing, but how uh how do I choose who I vote for?
00:37:39.519 --> 00:37:40.800
Oh, that's a good question.
00:37:41.039 --> 00:37:51.760
Um I'm trying to think of a like a scripture to point to um outside of like you know, James 4 8, that he who lacks wisdom ask for it and God will give it to you.
00:37:51.840 --> 00:37:53.920
You know, I need some wisdom here in the ballot box.
00:37:54.079 --> 00:37:56.559
Uh that's that's a that's a fair verse to use, I suppose.
00:37:56.639 --> 00:38:09.119
But um I I am not like I um I I'm not one who like without saying who I would vote for specifically, like I'm not one who uh wastes my vote.
00:38:09.280 --> 00:38:12.880
Like I I don't think writing in a name or voting for a small party is worth it.
00:38:12.960 --> 00:38:14.960
So I I will go so far as to say that.
00:38:15.119 --> 00:38:16.880
Um a lot of people do that out of conviction.
00:38:16.960 --> 00:38:23.039
They're like, I'm gonna vote, but I'm you know, I'm gonna write in Kevin Saxon's name, or like you'd make a great governor.
00:38:23.280 --> 00:38:28.960
But um yeah, it's just it's just a waste of it's just a waste of your vote, in my opinion.
00:38:29.119 --> 00:38:48.719
So uh I I would I would actually narrow the field um to to the people who you actually think have a chance of winning and choose the person who um who has the best policies, not the best personality, uh charismatic or or moral or whatever, um, but the best policies to actually flourish human society.
00:38:48.880 --> 00:38:53.840
So um I I find that problematic as well when we vote for a person based on their perceived character.
00:38:53.920 --> 00:38:55.519
First of all, you've never met them, you don't know them.
00:38:55.679 --> 00:38:55.840
Right.
00:38:56.000 --> 00:38:57.440
Um you just know their public character.
00:38:57.599 --> 00:39:00.320
But also, like you're not this is I I feel very strongly about this.
00:39:00.480 --> 00:39:04.880
You're not voting for a pastor, you're you're voting for a president or you're voting for a governor.
00:39:05.039 --> 00:39:08.079
Like, don't hold them to the standard of 1 Timothy chapter 3.
00:39:08.320 --> 00:39:14.400
Those are those are pastoral standards, those are not presidential standards, those are not uh guvernat how do you say gubernatorial?
00:39:14.639 --> 00:39:15.360
Gubernatorial, yeah.
00:39:15.440 --> 00:39:16.079
Yes, I did it.
00:39:16.159 --> 00:39:26.159
So those are not standards for governors, like those are standards for pastors, and it's problematic when we try to um overlay those standards onto political leaders.
00:39:26.239 --> 00:39:40.400
And so uh I I wouldn't say completely ignore their personality or their perceived morality, but vote for them based on their policies and vote for the person who you think has good policies and can actually win.
00:39:40.559 --> 00:39:45.440
Um so I I that's that's kind of where I that's kind of how I decide.
00:39:45.599 --> 00:39:47.360
Um I don't I do vote.
00:39:47.440 --> 00:39:53.920
Uh I think voting for a smaller party uh or writing someone in is a waste of your vote personally.
00:39:54.159 --> 00:39:58.719
And um I don't put as much weight on um personality or perceived morality.
00:39:58.800 --> 00:40:01.039
I look specifically at policies and vote that way.
00:40:01.199 --> 00:40:05.599
So uh those are kind of I guess three three pointers, those are my three pointers for Christians.
00:40:05.679 --> 00:40:06.159
So yeah.
00:40:06.400 --> 00:40:07.199
What about you?
00:40:07.519 --> 00:40:19.519
Uh well my I actually have been voted for in a couple races before, um, because my friend and I we used to, if there was only one person running unopposed and it wasn't the person that we wanted in an office, we would vote for each other.
00:40:19.760 --> 00:40:21.840
Well, yeah, that's so fair enough.
00:40:22.000 --> 00:40:27.199
Yeah, so I I've gotten several votes in some uh in some elections in Palm Beach County.
00:40:27.679 --> 00:40:31.679
But um for for for multiple positions too, actually.
00:40:31.920 --> 00:40:34.079
Um but no, I think you're I think you're right.
00:40:34.159 --> 00:40:35.840
Like you want to vote for somebody who's actually gonna win.
00:40:35.920 --> 00:40:55.760
I think that the the key though is figuring out how how do we like the the the and I agree with you too, like that we're voting on the positions, we're voting on the person who's going to to have the best chance for leading our culture or leading our you know, leading our country, our our state, our local government, um, in a way that's gonna cause human flourishing.
00:40:55.840 --> 00:41:02.639
I absolutely agree with that, but like how do we decide what policies those are that cause us to make that decision?
00:41:03.039 --> 00:41:04.880
I mean that's highly debated, actually.
00:41:05.039 --> 00:41:28.239
Um because like we we already talked about how two sent or two Sundays ago, two days ago on Sunday, we discussed the pro-life issue um from Psalm 139, as we should, and some would say some some well-meaning Christians in our in our pews on Sunday would say that the Democratic Party is the pro-life party, and some would say the Republican Party is the pro-life party.
00:41:28.320 --> 00:41:32.000
Um and they have convictions and preferences one way or another.
00:41:32.239 --> 00:41:44.559
Um and so that but they would they would all affirm that um you know life begins at conception and ends at natural death, but um this party uh fights for life better than this one or that one.
00:41:44.719 --> 00:41:50.400
So I think that that is that is a highly debated um that is a highly debated issue.
00:41:50.880 --> 00:42:01.440
Um I I think there are some I think there are uh degrees of issues that like I would um I would put abortion toward the top uh in terms of being anti-abortion.
00:42:01.599 --> 00:42:08.719
Um so not just being pro-life but also being anti-abortion, like I would put that toward the the top of the list in terms of policies to look at.
00:42:08.800 --> 00:42:11.679
And so there's not all policies are the same.
00:42:11.920 --> 00:42:30.960
Um but um yeah, I I guess I guess that that question is just it's a hard one to answer because uh I would say principally um you know vote for the person representing policies that represent scripture well, but there's a debate on like which policies represent scripture well.
00:42:31.039 --> 00:42:37.840
Like I I mean a debate, sure, but I think there are there could there's definitive answers to many of them.
00:42:38.320 --> 00:42:45.360
Um but but but I think but I we've talked about it before though the best policy for human flourishing is scripture.
00:42:45.679 --> 00:42:57.760
So, yes, I'm not voting for a pastor, but I do want to vote for somebody who's going to be the best for human flourishing, and the best way to bring about human flourishing is by doing what scripture says.
00:42:58.079 --> 00:43:13.760
And I do think that um that there are some things that are incredibly clear in scripture that are purposely made convoluted in politics so that people get, and especially church people, get confused.
00:43:14.159 --> 00:43:31.199
And and I think that there are but I think that there are a lot of uh a lot of those issues that we make into issues and say, well, I mean you're thinking about this life and not that life, or you're thinking about this and not like I think some of those things are actually pretty clear if we are honest with ourselves and honest about scripture.
00:43:31.440 --> 00:43:39.039
And I would I would have I mean I and I mean there's a reason why you and I pretty much come down on the same decisions, I'm sure.
00:43:39.360 --> 00:43:43.360
Um it's because we read the Bible and try and interpret it faithfully.
00:43:43.679 --> 00:43:45.920
So you know what I'm saying?
00:43:46.000 --> 00:43:59.840
Like I think that there I do think that voting for a candidate who's going to bring about what I believe this would be scripturally correct as a policy would be the better position, and I do think that most of that is pretty clear in scriptural.
00:44:00.800 --> 00:44:16.400
So um we've probably only got thirty seconds here, but um there are like some churches that like our church would probably our church being first Baptist Church Leesburg uh at at present is pretty politically neutral from the pulpit.
00:44:16.639 --> 00:44:27.360
Um but there are churches that were politically neutral and are now becoming pretty politically charged and are aligning themselves with um with the Republican Party very publicly and very intentionally.
00:44:27.519 --> 00:44:32.480
Um this might be a whole nother topic, but is that uh is that helpful?
00:44:32.880 --> 00:44:35.920
I I don't know that that's helpful um necessarily.
00:44:36.400 --> 00:44:55.039
I mean I think sometimes we are trying in our in our in our attempt to stay um in our attempt to stay neutral, I think sometimes um we we don't I mean uh you know I think sometimes we don't we're not willing to cross certain lines because we want to stay neutral, but like there are some things that are pretty clear.
00:44:55.280 --> 00:45:13.519
Um so I mean so like I think that sometimes that's a problem, but I don't think that and just so that we should be aligning with with a part of the particular party because what ends up happening is we end up you know that that becomes our church or that becomes our God, that that candidate.
00:45:13.679 --> 00:45:15.440
I just I have a I have a big problem with that.
00:45:15.519 --> 00:45:18.960
Like I I don't even like answering the question, are you a Republican or a Democrat?
00:45:19.039 --> 00:45:20.400
Like I'm I'm a follower of Jesus.
00:45:20.559 --> 00:45:36.480
Like I'm I'm gonna vote for that because even within like let's say even within the party, sometimes you look and say, ooh, I don't like this candidate stand on this thing that um because I you know like it's it's not enough.
00:45:36.639 --> 00:45:46.480
It's not enough of being willing to save lives and then to to bring about human flourishing because because politicians capitulate, you know, they they want to get elected, right?
00:45:46.639 --> 00:45:57.440
So um so I I mean so I so I do find it problematic to associate like or to uh to s to go all in on a political party.
00:45:58.719 --> 00:45:59.760
I think so too.
00:45:59.920 --> 00:46:01.679
Um I think so too.
00:46:01.760 --> 00:46:09.679
But I I don't know, I've just um like the churches I've talked to that are doing that, they they they almost not almost they do, they see it as evangelistic.
00:46:09.840 --> 00:46:17.760
Um like if we talk in a partisan way, then non-Christians associated with that party will be drawn to our church, and then we can introduce them to Jesus.
00:46:18.480 --> 00:46:21.440
And I I'd actually never thought about it that way before.
00:46:21.760 --> 00:46:26.960
Not totally sure I'm convinced, but that's that's kind of the stated um thought process there.
00:46:27.440 --> 00:46:28.400
I don't like it.
00:46:29.280 --> 00:46:30.159
Me either.
00:46:30.639 --> 00:46:38.159
So uh anyways, yeah, um vote for policies, vote for a person representing policies that can actually win.
00:46:38.719 --> 00:46:45.280
Yeah, I and I will I will one other thing about this that to go back to like in the very beginning, like we're not get like we're not voting for a pastor, right?
00:46:45.519 --> 00:46:50.079
Um and so like sometimes like yeah, it may not be the character, the public character that we want.
00:46:50.480 --> 00:46:58.079
I actually do think that we need to, and this is another topic for another day, but we really do need to bring back virtue into culture.
00:46:58.639 --> 00:47:08.960
Like we have gone way too far down the road of like say whatever you want, post whatever you want, show whatever you want, and we really do need to have more.
00:47:09.039 --> 00:47:13.599
Uh virtue is not the word, but more um maturity?
00:47:14.079 --> 00:47:20.000
Maturity, yes, but like I'm I can't think of the word, but virtual virals virtue will suffice for now.
00:47:20.079 --> 00:47:22.000
Like we just need more virtue and culture.
00:47:22.880 --> 00:47:26.000
So, anyways, did you uh did you come up with a hot take?
00:47:26.159 --> 00:47:26.960
No, I need you to go first.
00:47:27.199 --> 00:47:29.039
Oh, I gotta think of what mine's simple though.
00:47:29.119 --> 00:47:32.480
Mine is uh mine is that uh Tuesdays are the worst day of the week.
00:47:32.800 --> 00:47:33.199
Really?
00:47:33.440 --> 00:47:33.760
Yes.
00:47:34.000 --> 00:47:34.719
Tell me about it.
00:47:34.960 --> 00:47:37.039
I mean, Monday there's still hope.
00:47:37.360 --> 00:47:38.719
Tuesday there's no hope.
00:47:38.960 --> 00:47:39.440
I see.
00:47:39.920 --> 00:47:49.039
It has nothing to do with the fact that today is Tuesday and that we record this podcast on Tuesdays, but like it's just that historically in my life I have found Tuesdays to be the worst day.
00:47:49.440 --> 00:47:50.159
Interesting.
00:47:50.400 --> 00:47:50.719
Okay.
00:47:51.199 --> 00:47:53.920
Um hot take.
00:47:54.159 --> 00:48:08.880
Uh I uh gosh, I don't really have a hot take, but I'll tell you um, I think as someone who eats meat, I think uh uh eating rice and bean burritos is worth it because it's cheaper.
00:48:09.360 --> 00:48:16.320
That's such a weird thing to say, but I've been eating so many rice and bean burritos because they're like less than half the price of the burritos that include meat.
00:48:16.400 --> 00:48:17.920
So uh thanks, Costco.
00:48:18.159 --> 00:48:21.519
I mean, I love burritos and I don't eat meat, so that's uh yeah, it sounds great.
00:48:21.679 --> 00:48:24.159
I know that's why I thought that's why I thought of that because I was talking to you.
00:48:24.480 --> 00:48:25.119
That's a pretty good one.
00:48:25.280 --> 00:48:27.440
I mean, it's protein in it, so you got what you need.
00:48:27.599 --> 00:48:27.840
Yep.
00:48:28.000 --> 00:48:28.320
Yeah.
00:48:28.559 --> 00:48:28.960
All right.
00:48:29.039 --> 00:48:35.039
Well, this has been the Practical Matters podcast, where we believe that making theology practical matters.
00:48:35.199 --> 00:48:36.400
I am Kevin Saxton.
00:48:36.719 --> 00:48:38.960
This is Garrett, and I'll have a better hot take next time.
00:48:39.519 --> 00:48:41.920
And I am sure to not run out of them.
00:48:42.239 --> 00:48:43.280
See you the next time.
00:48:43.679 --> 00:48:44.159
Bye.
