speaker-0: All right, welcome everyone to the Schoology Learning Podcast. Thanks for joining us. This is the podcast where we talk about some things we're hearing out in the world about education, as well as some tips and tricks about our favorite platform, which is of course Schoology. My name is Kelly Eady and I'm joined by my colleague Erica Water.
speaker-1: Hey Kelly, I'm so excited for us to take this time. I just remember how fun it was ⁓ when I was teaching to take the lunchtime or, you know, any little break that we had and just kind of talk with colleagues. So hopefully ⁓ everyone can join us and just get a little chit-chat about education and schoology while they're at it.
speaker-0: Yeah, so let's get started. Well, Erica, interesting things are afoot as usual. How are you?
speaker-1: I'm doing well. How about you?
speaker-0: I'm doing well.
speaker-1: Just like figuring out what your interesting things afoot are compared to mine and how they whether they match up or not.
speaker-0: ⁓ well, I mean, obviously in terms of like when we're recording this, lots of people going back to school, you know, people are getting back in the swing of things. And ⁓ so it just it's always it's funny to also see like the different time frames that people have for starting school because there are districts that start, you know, early in August. Some, if they're year round, are in July. And then there's some that don't start until after Labor Day. So it's just this constant wave of like. Interesting thing.
speaker-1: Yeah. Yes, yes. It is that time of year for sure. ⁓
speaker-0: But you know, a while ago you and I talked about the kind of the screen time debate, which I don't think is lessening, by the way. Like
speaker-1: I agree. I think it's still very relevant.
speaker-0: Yep. I think it's very relevant. And so, you know, I I don't know, I'm sure people saw this, but maybe not. I, you know, the Department of Ed released, ⁓ in terms of again, we're recording this at a certain time. Who knows when people are listening? But they released a letter about, you know, their recommendations around technology use. And I just thought it was such an interesting way to address the things that you and I actually talked about, like It was really reinforcing a lot of what I think we're hearing from all kinds of organizations, COSIN, ISTE, you know, this intentional use idea. but I know, I know you took took a look at it. Like, what were your thoughts?
speaker-1: Yeah, I I actually was so comforted to see that because while the screen time conversation's still relevant, I think what's happening now is there's a little bit of like, let's actually approach this from a very logical research based stance. Instead of I think what was happening was that there was a very emotional argument happening right away. Yeah. And we've kind of shifted into like, no, let's talk about it and let's adjust things, but let's make sure we're doing it from a You know, a like a systemic, rational, like well thought out ⁓ path. And I think the the Department of Ed's ⁓ press release just kind of emphasized that. Like, yeah, you know, we definitely wanna be smart about the technology we're using. and we wanna be deliberate about it. And I thought they honestly had ⁓ their questions included in there. I thought were like solid questions. Yeah. ⁓ so I don't know, do we wanna just go through ⁓ for the you know, the folks who are listening?
speaker-0: Yeah, we had to answer these and some of them I had mixed feelings on. So we'll see if if you and I were kind of aligned on but ⁓ yeah, ⁓ let's let's go through the questions. So ⁓ for those that haven't read it, this was guidance that came out ⁓ a couple weeks ago, so ⁓ third week in August, I think. And it basically was just kind of a letter about, you know, here's what here's what we are recommending in terms of technology use.
speaker-1: Yeah. Thought processing.
speaker-0: And then there was sort of this, ⁓ I don't know what you'd call it. It was almost like a exact summary that they also put out with a link to the actual letter. And the exact summary that they have on the USDOE's website has the questions. ⁓ but if you haven't read the the full letter, it's worth a read. ⁓ because it does go into the rationale behind it. And then there are some really good, I would say, points for vendors like Power School. on you know how to be aligned with this idea of intentional use. ⁓ But if we look at the the kind of the exact summary of the five straightforward questions, one of them I don't think is very straightforward, but what learning problem ⁓ does it solve? So if as a parent your kids have schoology and you ask like what learning problem does this actually solve? Like What answer would you want to hear as a parent? ⁓
speaker-1: ⁓ I like that. ⁓ Ooh. Now I gotta put my parent hat on. I know. Instead of my like schoology advocate hat. I think for me the the the learning problem from a parent standpoint is transparency. I do feel like as a parent you know, when they're when they're little little They have a folder, right? It's that take-home folder. It's like the teacher sends you this, you read the note, you know what to do, you send it back, right? It's like this. You have to be kind of really laxed up with the elementary teachers, you know, because these are like really, really little kids. Well, now like now I have a senior. There's no visibility because that senior is giving me nothing. He's not bringing things home to show me. I'm not, you know what I mean? And also. I shouldn't be. At this point he does need to, you know, kind of own his own learning journey. Yeah. but the one thing that I truly appreciate from a parent standpoint about Schoology is the learning problem of that that transparency and just that having that kind of support of Hey parent, if you however much you want to get involved, you sure can to help out help out your student. yeah, and the other thing I think it provides is that ⁓ when my son has to be absent when he has to be gone, that having that visibility of like, what happened that day? And the the just the the ability to make sure that he's doing what he needs to do, ⁓ instead of reaching out and asking. I don't know, I just all LMSs in my opinion, I just really appreciate that that functionality about them.
speaker-0: Love that answer because I think you know, when somebody sees what learning problem does it solve, I think your first instinct is to look at like, well, our our math scores are declining, whatever. And sure, that's a that's a learning problem it might solve. But there's a greater problem in that learning is happening sometimes in disconnected places. And then it we are all in this together. And so if a parent doesn't know what their child's learning. they're kind of cut out of the equation in terms of supporting it. And so I think I think that that Erica, fantastic answer. ⁓ great. Thanks. I really like that.
speaker-1: ⁓ I feel like I was just judged on like a pageant and I was like, you know You won. ⁓ ten out of ten. Yeah. Yes. That's great.
speaker-0: You were in the R now. ⁓ who
speaker-1: The stress is over.
speaker-0: I also like the the mention of the whole thing of like learning also doesn't only happen between, you know, eight and four or whatever the times are in a classroom. I remember asking because I had a parent ask me why wh why we got school age, like what was the point? Which is kind of the question, like what learning problem is it solving? And I was like, Would you go to a bank now that you could only get your money out between eight and five if you went to the branch? And we're like, Absolutely not. Like No, I I have an ATM card for a reason. Yeah. And I was like, We used to treat learning like a bank where it was like we're all the open from eight to four and if you're not here to learn.
speaker-1: Yeah. Make it you keep sorry. Yeah.
speaker-0: So ⁓ I I love the anytime anywhere I love the anytime anywhere problem it solves of learning doesn't just happen when we're expecting the learning to happen. And sometimes kids have to do things at a certain pace and there's some flexibility in that. So I think it's less to me about like we're trying to solve this very specific content problem and more like the learning process though. How are we helping with the learning process problem?
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: Like
speaker-1: Yeah, that's a good good twist on that. Because you're right. It w it's not ⁓ like Schoology's not designed to fix those specific content or the specific gaps that the system has. But they it is there to help. All right, how do we make it more structured? How do we, you know, make it visible to everybody? ⁓ so yeah, that's a that's a really good call out. Yeah.
speaker-0: I mean I'm sure our champions would have other things they would
speaker-1: They're probably screaming at if I were in the car right now I'm sure they'd be like, They're missing the obvious one. Sorry ⁓ to you.
speaker-0: But it does lead into the next question, ⁓ especially the part we were just talking about, which is when should it be used? I thought that was an interesting question.
speaker-1: I agree. Cause I think that ties back to the screen. I think the ultimately that was kind of meant to go back to the screen time, right? Of like when is it appropriate? When is it not? Don't just have them do it for no reason. ⁓ but at the same time, if I were doing the job that I did right before I came over to Power School, which was I was working as a district data coach amongst the middle schools. Yeah. I would be like every course, every, there's every all of it, all the time. All the time. ⁓ just because again, I find so much value in capturing what is happening in the class for a multitude of reasons that I just mentioned, but also like future use. Like I just keep thinking, like, ⁓ if I had a system like this where all I had to do was tweak what I did one year to the next, you know, and like adjust instead of trying to keep track of everything and make sure students had access to it all. Yeah. ⁓ to me I would use it every course all the time. There's just I I can't think of a time when it would not I'm even thinking like even ⁓ I know ⁓ when I was in my data coach role, there would be classes who'd be like, Yeah, I don't really need data. And I'm like, no, but you do. And we'd talk about it, you know. Yeah. ⁓ you know even courses that are much more hands on, you still need that view, right? And ⁓ I think the same thing holds true for an LMS. How about you? Would you agree with me on I would.
speaker-0: And I w you know, I guess going back to the intentional use thing, there are times that technology is just not the right tool to use. And so I I I would say that it should be used when there's a really good reason that you need to organize learning in a certain way for kids that's really hard to do without technology. And I think that's really the core function of an LMS. It is managing the learning. But I also know that. Because we do we have things in our platform that don't require the kid to even be on the device. Like use it for the data gathering part, use it for when you need to make sure the kids have access to learning materials. Use it when you want to give choice. ⁓ yeah.
speaker-1: But you don't have to actually they don't have to do the work in there. Right. Yeah. I one hundred percent agree with you on that. Yeah. ⁓ which it leads into the next question, honestly, which is like the for whom should it be used? first of all, I love the whom. I love because I think sometimes people shy away from that and like purposely will rephrase questions to avoid the use of whom.
speaker-0: Yeah. I do the opposite and we'll actually make it so I have to use him.
speaker-1: The former English teacher loves that you just said that. Yeah. So ⁓ the the for whom should it be used, I this one probably seems so straightforward. Like I bet they were thinking, you know, like, ⁓ my grade six math students need to be able to use this piece of technology, right? ⁓ and that's what's gonna be beneficial. ⁓ but I look at it from a much broader lens, like I said, like parents, students, advisors. Counselors. Obviously the teachers. This you know, and like I view it from like a it's a a wide range of of users depending on what they're coming into Schoology to do.
speaker-0: Yeah. And the what I thought was interesting about this one too is I do think that it's trickier with really young learners. And so I've always been sort of like, well, like it works well, let's say for centers or something where I don't know, like part of me and I we've done a really good job with elementary experience of making it accessible and and easy for kids to find the stuff they need to get to and have choice in how they respond. ⁓ but I think that for whom it should be used is for kids who are ready to be in a dirt digital learning space. And that might be in K two. ⁓ but it kind of depends on what the teachers what the expectations are. But I I think I would agree with you. It's kinda like when you were like, Well, when should it be used? It should be used for all the things.
speaker-1: Yes.
speaker-0: ⁓ and and I actually love that unlike other tools, it really is made for almost every stakeholder who's involved in a learning process, you know? You'll have principals using it for P D, you'll have teachers in for like ⁓ and you know, that's one thing we haven't even talked about is like it should be used for professional learning. Like
speaker-1: Every so often that hits me that I'm like, I do not emphasize that enough. And I don't think districts emphasize like Yeah. The fact that you already have a system that can basically manage your professional development as well is like I I forget that it can do all of that as also. So it's a really, really good point with the problem.
speaker-0: For him.
speaker-1: For him. ⁓
speaker-0: Now this next one I thought was not straightforward.
speaker-1: No I agree.
speaker-0: For how long should it be used?
speaker-1: So I was when I first read that question, I thought they meant like, ⁓ it's fifteen minutes a day. Or it's ⁓ you know what I mean? I thought they were thinking of like chunks of time for how long? And then I reread it and I thought, ⁓ are they thinking I use it for all of my middle school years and then I never use it again? Yeah. You know what I mean? And then I read it again and I was like, ⁓ are we talking like it's appropriate until like twenty thirty and then something new will come al you know what I mean? I was like, What? What does this mean?
speaker-0: You know what? I feel invalidated right now because I read that and I was like, I'm not quite sure like what do they mean by how long? But I think you're when I think about the screen time debate, there's so much emphasis on minutes. And I I think you may not I think you might be right where maybe initially the thought was no more than 30 minutes a day, you know, or whatever. ⁓ but I I guess for me it's such a variable. on what are you doing and why are you doing it and that will determine how long you might be using school a G through in in a course or for an assignment or or whatever. So that one I thought was interesting. ⁓ and of course we think it should be used throughout, right? For all yes. Be used forever.
speaker-1: Yes. Yeah. Way past 2030, by the way. But the ⁓ but I also think the way I'd want to answer that question depends to your point on what am I coming there to do. So if I'm a parent and I'm coming there to see, hey, what has my kid been learning this week? Because I want to be able to have a conversation at dinner. Like, ⁓ if I only could see what my son is doing and I could actually ask him about things instead of ⁓ what did you know, what happened in class today? I would love that. ⁓ but I would want to make sure that their time spent is quick, right? Like I know parents don't have a lot of time, so it needs to be fast. a teacher. I want them to be able to do things as quickly as they can so they can get to the important part of actually teaching the students, right? I do want that part to be be short. But maybe the you know, it's a discussion and I you know, and I want students to take their time and respond thoroughly, and I want to give them you know, a longer period of time to to be in there. so that that question is just so tricky without the context of well, why are they coming there? 'Cause that's depending on what the action is, I think really determines ⁓ how long I would expect them to to be using the product.
speaker-0: Well, and I guess that's another thing. The reason I thought this is a pretty nuanced question is also like how long it might take one student to do something maybe totally different than somebody else. So even even if you have like a minute, like it's only fifteen minutes. Well, maybe that's too long for some kids and maybe it's not long enough for others. So I I thought that was a harder question because I think there's There's too many things at play there to really have like a here's the you know, here's the concrete easy answer. Or I think that one's not an easy answer.
speaker-1: No, that's a that's an excellent point. ⁓ but you know, at least having the conversation around it, I think is beneficial. ⁓ I agree. ⁓ 'cause if it's one of those things where ⁓ it's a five minute a day thing that we do and it's like, okay, well, is that giving you the value for what you need ⁓ in the long run? ⁓ so yeah, that's a good discussion point, but agreed. Very d it seems like such a simple question, but it's it's really not. Which gets even harder.
speaker-0: Yeah. Yes, this last question. ⁓ I know. So what evidence? Is there that it, you know, impacts student learning? Like
speaker-1: So you and I have had some really great conversations about this. About like it is so we do our best, I think, in the world of education to try and show that students are are learning, right? That they they're improving. ⁓ and we try to make it as clear cut as possible. ⁓ and we try to say, like, ⁓ because they did this activity and then they did this activity and they improved from this time to this time, that has meant that they're learning. And we feel really good about that, right? Like yeah, I do think people are stri you know, we really strive to achieve that, to have that visibility, not only for the student and the parent, but also to be able to prove yes, what we're what we're doing is is working. Yeah. I think the trick is there are so many variables to it. I know. I don't know how you I don't know how it's so hard I think to prove that any one piece, especially a technology piece, is the the the thing yeah that cost the student learning to improve. Yeah. ⁓ there's just so many variables. I know. You know, you brought up a really good point of like it starts with did the teachers get training on how to use the technology product? Do the teachers know how to use Schoology to to its utmost? Yeah. That That very well could be a a pivotal difference between making an impact and not.
speaker-0: Yeah, and I think what's interesting is that ⁓ I think people want that ⁓ they want the program that fixes the thing. Like if we could just use this and then our math scores go up. And yeah, wouldn't that be wouldn't that be great if it weren't that simple? But I remember ⁓ when I was still at the district level, we did a book study and then the author came and spoke to us. It was Dr. Daniel Willingham from University of Virginia. He was great. So he wrote this book called When Can You Trust the Experts. And it was about the challenges of educational research to prove efficacy and learning. And one of the challenges is you have to have randomized control trials. And setting those up is not for the classroom teacher to know how to do. And then you have to decide who am I sacrificing as the control group and who am I trying the thing with? And then What's the cost of like doing like so not only is it there's so many variables, but just even getting the right evidence of that is extremely difficult. And I think that's you know, one of the challenges that that Hattie found when he, you know, I have my I have mixed feelings on John Hattie. Some of the things that he said were highly effective strategies. I think Danny Willingham's metaphor, which I loved, was you can build the perfect pendulum and then you take it on a ship and it won't work because it's designed for a very specific context in a very specific setting. And so those so are those clinical trials, those random random randomized control trials are, yeah, that worked great for this set of kids who have this specific issue with this specific teacher. And it's really hard to mimic that. ⁓ so I don't I thought that was by far the the most difficult of the questions. And I was almost like, what were they thinking they were going to get out of that? ⁓ what was the expectation? But one thing I really liked, and I ⁓ if you know, when you look at the the whole letter that they wrote, there were two things I really appreciated. One was this idea of shared responsibility of what states and school districts should. And there's a list of bullets. The very last one though is Support professional learning that helps educators integrate technology effectively into instruction. So I really appreciated that guidance for districts and schools. And then for the ed tech providers, you know, they're encouraged to ⁓ support educators with implementation resources and professional learning. And I think so much hinges on that one thing. Like, yeah, like it's really comes down to. to PD if people are even using it well. So ⁓ anyway, ⁓ I thought it was a fascinating
speaker-1: Yeah, and support along the way, right? Like ⁓ I remember being like a pilot teacher for trying out a piece of educational technology and it was performance matters back in the day, our sister product. Yeah. And because I was so involved at the jump, right, I got to see the huge benefit. And then we did PD and people were like, Okay, it's this whole new system. And they were, you know. trying to learn and then it was like go forth and conquer. And they were missing all the context that I had been able to gather. Right. So it was a lot of a lot of my job was just going around to people and showing them the power and what they could do in their classrooms. And ⁓ so to have that continued support, I think really does dep help determine whether that ⁓ piece of technology actually can improve student learning or outcomes. I don't know. It's such a tough tough question. Yeah.
speaker-0: I know. But I'm
speaker-1: Good to have the conversations. Yeah. Yeah.
speaker-0: That and that I think that was part of the whole point of that was let's start having conversations about this. And and hopefully this isn't I'd love to see like a V two and like then what or examples or whatever. So ⁓ yeah, I thought it was I thought it was a good follow-up to the screen time, you know, conversation that people are having. And then the larger issue of like what are we like what are we doing and why? Like when it gets down to it.
speaker-1: You know, like it it just translates into even like your personal life. Like for a while I had some apps that I was I was like, ⁓ that's such a cool concept. Like that's so great. I need to have that. Like I have to have this. I have to have this subscription. This is like really, really like what a cool piece of technology. But then I realized like it's not actually doing anything for me. It's not like it wasn't, you know, like I just w thought through some of these questions, if you think about it in my my And I was like, I need to not do this anymore. Right. The very cool piece of technology. Yeah. Very lovely that they came up with it, but it's just not helping me. ⁓ and you know, having those conversations every so often and making those decisions, I think, is is healthy. Yeah.
speaker-0: Well, we encourage everyone to check it out if you haven't already. ⁓ and you know, as you go forth and conquer, ⁓ remember that the idea of transparency, this idea of like being really visible with what you're using and why, I think it's gonna become you know more important than ever in this coming school year.
speaker-1: Agreed.
speaker-0: Well, thanks for joining this episode of the Schoology Learning podcast. Hope to see you next time where we'll talk about some more topics of interest and of course talking about our favorite platform, Schoology.
speaker-1: And in the meantime, if you ⁓ click on the user toolbox at the bottom of the Schoology page, there are lots of resources out there, including other episodes of this podcast to listen to. Until next time.
speaker-0: And hope to see you next time. Thanks all.
speaker-1: Hey Kelly, I'm so excited for us to take this time. I just remember how fun it was ⁓ when I was teaching to take the lunchtime or, you know, any little break that we had and just kind of talk with colleagues. So hopefully ⁓ everyone can join us and just get a little chit-chat about education and schoology while they're at it.
speaker-0: Yeah, so let's get started. Well, Erica, interesting things are afoot as usual. How are you?
speaker-1: I'm doing well. How about you?
speaker-0: I'm doing well.
speaker-1: Just like figuring out what your interesting things afoot are compared to mine and how they whether they match up or not.
speaker-0: ⁓ well, I mean, obviously in terms of like when we're recording this, lots of people going back to school, you know, people are getting back in the swing of things. And ⁓ so it just it's always it's funny to also see like the different time frames that people have for starting school because there are districts that start, you know, early in August. Some, if they're year round, are in July. And then there's some that don't start until after Labor Day. So it's just this constant wave of like. Interesting thing.
speaker-1: Yeah. Yes, yes. It is that time of year for sure. ⁓
speaker-0: But you know, a while ago you and I talked about the kind of the screen time debate, which I don't think is lessening, by the way. Like
speaker-1: I agree. I think it's still very relevant.
speaker-0: Yep. I think it's very relevant. And so, you know, I I don't know, I'm sure people saw this, but maybe not. I, you know, the Department of Ed released, ⁓ in terms of again, we're recording this at a certain time. Who knows when people are listening? But they released a letter about, you know, their recommendations around technology use. And I just thought it was such an interesting way to address the things that you and I actually talked about, like It was really reinforcing a lot of what I think we're hearing from all kinds of organizations, COSIN, ISTE, you know, this intentional use idea. but I know, I know you took took a look at it. Like, what were your thoughts?
speaker-1: Yeah, I I actually was so comforted to see that because while the screen time conversation's still relevant, I think what's happening now is there's a little bit of like, let's actually approach this from a very logical research based stance. Instead of I think what was happening was that there was a very emotional argument happening right away. Yeah. And we've kind of shifted into like, no, let's talk about it and let's adjust things, but let's make sure we're doing it from a You know, a like a systemic, rational, like well thought out ⁓ path. And I think the the Department of Ed's ⁓ press release just kind of emphasized that. Like, yeah, you know, we definitely wanna be smart about the technology we're using. and we wanna be deliberate about it. And I thought they honestly had ⁓ their questions included in there. I thought were like solid questions. Yeah. ⁓ so I don't know, do we wanna just go through ⁓ for the you know, the folks who are listening?
speaker-0: Yeah, we had to answer these and some of them I had mixed feelings on. So we'll see if if you and I were kind of aligned on but ⁓ yeah, ⁓ let's let's go through the questions. So ⁓ for those that haven't read it, this was guidance that came out ⁓ a couple weeks ago, so ⁓ third week in August, I think. And it basically was just kind of a letter about, you know, here's what here's what we are recommending in terms of technology use.
speaker-1: Yeah. Thought processing.
speaker-0: And then there was sort of this, ⁓ I don't know what you'd call it. It was almost like a exact summary that they also put out with a link to the actual letter. And the exact summary that they have on the USDOE's website has the questions. ⁓ but if you haven't read the the full letter, it's worth a read. ⁓ because it does go into the rationale behind it. And then there are some really good, I would say, points for vendors like Power School. on you know how to be aligned with this idea of intentional use. ⁓ But if we look at the the kind of the exact summary of the five straightforward questions, one of them I don't think is very straightforward, but what learning problem ⁓ does it solve? So if as a parent your kids have schoology and you ask like what learning problem does this actually solve? Like What answer would you want to hear as a parent? ⁓
speaker-1: ⁓ I like that. ⁓ Ooh. Now I gotta put my parent hat on. I know. Instead of my like schoology advocate hat. I think for me the the the learning problem from a parent standpoint is transparency. I do feel like as a parent you know, when they're when they're little little They have a folder, right? It's that take-home folder. It's like the teacher sends you this, you read the note, you know what to do, you send it back, right? It's like this. You have to be kind of really laxed up with the elementary teachers, you know, because these are like really, really little kids. Well, now like now I have a senior. There's no visibility because that senior is giving me nothing. He's not bringing things home to show me. I'm not, you know what I mean? And also. I shouldn't be. At this point he does need to, you know, kind of own his own learning journey. Yeah. but the one thing that I truly appreciate from a parent standpoint about Schoology is the learning problem of that that transparency and just that having that kind of support of Hey parent, if you however much you want to get involved, you sure can to help out help out your student. yeah, and the other thing I think it provides is that ⁓ when my son has to be absent when he has to be gone, that having that visibility of like, what happened that day? And the the just the the ability to make sure that he's doing what he needs to do, ⁓ instead of reaching out and asking. I don't know, I just all LMSs in my opinion, I just really appreciate that that functionality about them.
speaker-0: Love that answer because I think you know, when somebody sees what learning problem does it solve, I think your first instinct is to look at like, well, our our math scores are declining, whatever. And sure, that's a that's a learning problem it might solve. But there's a greater problem in that learning is happening sometimes in disconnected places. And then it we are all in this together. And so if a parent doesn't know what their child's learning. they're kind of cut out of the equation in terms of supporting it. And so I think I think that that Erica, fantastic answer. ⁓ great. Thanks. I really like that.
speaker-1: ⁓ I feel like I was just judged on like a pageant and I was like, you know You won. ⁓ ten out of ten. Yeah. Yes. That's great.
speaker-0: You were in the R now. ⁓ who
speaker-1: The stress is over.
speaker-0: I also like the the mention of the whole thing of like learning also doesn't only happen between, you know, eight and four or whatever the times are in a classroom. I remember asking because I had a parent ask me why wh why we got school age, like what was the point? Which is kind of the question, like what learning problem is it solving? And I was like, Would you go to a bank now that you could only get your money out between eight and five if you went to the branch? And we're like, Absolutely not. Like No, I I have an ATM card for a reason. Yeah. And I was like, We used to treat learning like a bank where it was like we're all the open from eight to four and if you're not here to learn.
speaker-1: Yeah. Make it you keep sorry. Yeah.
speaker-0: So ⁓ I I love the anytime anywhere I love the anytime anywhere problem it solves of learning doesn't just happen when we're expecting the learning to happen. And sometimes kids have to do things at a certain pace and there's some flexibility in that. So I think it's less to me about like we're trying to solve this very specific content problem and more like the learning process though. How are we helping with the learning process problem?
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: Like
speaker-1: Yeah, that's a good good twist on that. Because you're right. It w it's not ⁓ like Schoology's not designed to fix those specific content or the specific gaps that the system has. But they it is there to help. All right, how do we make it more structured? How do we, you know, make it visible to everybody? ⁓ so yeah, that's a that's a really good call out. Yeah.
speaker-0: I mean I'm sure our champions would have other things they would
speaker-1: They're probably screaming at if I were in the car right now I'm sure they'd be like, They're missing the obvious one. Sorry ⁓ to you.
speaker-0: But it does lead into the next question, ⁓ especially the part we were just talking about, which is when should it be used? I thought that was an interesting question.
speaker-1: I agree. Cause I think that ties back to the screen. I think the ultimately that was kind of meant to go back to the screen time, right? Of like when is it appropriate? When is it not? Don't just have them do it for no reason. ⁓ but at the same time, if I were doing the job that I did right before I came over to Power School, which was I was working as a district data coach amongst the middle schools. Yeah. I would be like every course, every, there's every all of it, all the time. All the time. ⁓ just because again, I find so much value in capturing what is happening in the class for a multitude of reasons that I just mentioned, but also like future use. Like I just keep thinking, like, ⁓ if I had a system like this where all I had to do was tweak what I did one year to the next, you know, and like adjust instead of trying to keep track of everything and make sure students had access to it all. Yeah. ⁓ to me I would use it every course all the time. There's just I I can't think of a time when it would not I'm even thinking like even ⁓ I know ⁓ when I was in my data coach role, there would be classes who'd be like, Yeah, I don't really need data. And I'm like, no, but you do. And we'd talk about it, you know. Yeah. ⁓ you know even courses that are much more hands on, you still need that view, right? And ⁓ I think the same thing holds true for an LMS. How about you? Would you agree with me on I would.
speaker-0: And I w you know, I guess going back to the intentional use thing, there are times that technology is just not the right tool to use. And so I I I would say that it should be used when there's a really good reason that you need to organize learning in a certain way for kids that's really hard to do without technology. And I think that's really the core function of an LMS. It is managing the learning. But I also know that. Because we do we have things in our platform that don't require the kid to even be on the device. Like use it for the data gathering part, use it for when you need to make sure the kids have access to learning materials. Use it when you want to give choice. ⁓ yeah.
speaker-1: But you don't have to actually they don't have to do the work in there. Right. Yeah. I one hundred percent agree with you on that. Yeah. ⁓ which it leads into the next question, honestly, which is like the for whom should it be used? first of all, I love the whom. I love because I think sometimes people shy away from that and like purposely will rephrase questions to avoid the use of whom.
speaker-0: Yeah. I do the opposite and we'll actually make it so I have to use him.
speaker-1: The former English teacher loves that you just said that. Yeah. So ⁓ the the for whom should it be used, I this one probably seems so straightforward. Like I bet they were thinking, you know, like, ⁓ my grade six math students need to be able to use this piece of technology, right? ⁓ and that's what's gonna be beneficial. ⁓ but I look at it from a much broader lens, like I said, like parents, students, advisors. Counselors. Obviously the teachers. This you know, and like I view it from like a it's a a wide range of of users depending on what they're coming into Schoology to do.
speaker-0: Yeah. And the what I thought was interesting about this one too is I do think that it's trickier with really young learners. And so I've always been sort of like, well, like it works well, let's say for centers or something where I don't know, like part of me and I we've done a really good job with elementary experience of making it accessible and and easy for kids to find the stuff they need to get to and have choice in how they respond. ⁓ but I think that for whom it should be used is for kids who are ready to be in a dirt digital learning space. And that might be in K two. ⁓ but it kind of depends on what the teachers what the expectations are. But I I think I would agree with you. It's kinda like when you were like, Well, when should it be used? It should be used for all the things.
speaker-1: Yes.
speaker-0: ⁓ and and I actually love that unlike other tools, it really is made for almost every stakeholder who's involved in a learning process, you know? You'll have principals using it for P D, you'll have teachers in for like ⁓ and you know, that's one thing we haven't even talked about is like it should be used for professional learning. Like
speaker-1: Every so often that hits me that I'm like, I do not emphasize that enough. And I don't think districts emphasize like Yeah. The fact that you already have a system that can basically manage your professional development as well is like I I forget that it can do all of that as also. So it's a really, really good point with the problem.
speaker-0: For him.
speaker-1: For him. ⁓
speaker-0: Now this next one I thought was not straightforward.
speaker-1: No I agree.
speaker-0: For how long should it be used?
speaker-1: So I was when I first read that question, I thought they meant like, ⁓ it's fifteen minutes a day. Or it's ⁓ you know what I mean? I thought they were thinking of like chunks of time for how long? And then I reread it and I thought, ⁓ are they thinking I use it for all of my middle school years and then I never use it again? Yeah. You know what I mean? And then I read it again and I was like, ⁓ are we talking like it's appropriate until like twenty thirty and then something new will come al you know what I mean? I was like, What? What does this mean?
speaker-0: You know what? I feel invalidated right now because I read that and I was like, I'm not quite sure like what do they mean by how long? But I think you're when I think about the screen time debate, there's so much emphasis on minutes. And I I think you may not I think you might be right where maybe initially the thought was no more than 30 minutes a day, you know, or whatever. ⁓ but I I guess for me it's such a variable. on what are you doing and why are you doing it and that will determine how long you might be using school a G through in in a course or for an assignment or or whatever. So that one I thought was interesting. ⁓ and of course we think it should be used throughout, right? For all yes. Be used forever.
speaker-1: Yes. Yeah. Way past 2030, by the way. But the ⁓ but I also think the way I'd want to answer that question depends to your point on what am I coming there to do. So if I'm a parent and I'm coming there to see, hey, what has my kid been learning this week? Because I want to be able to have a conversation at dinner. Like, ⁓ if I only could see what my son is doing and I could actually ask him about things instead of ⁓ what did you know, what happened in class today? I would love that. ⁓ but I would want to make sure that their time spent is quick, right? Like I know parents don't have a lot of time, so it needs to be fast. a teacher. I want them to be able to do things as quickly as they can so they can get to the important part of actually teaching the students, right? I do want that part to be be short. But maybe the you know, it's a discussion and I you know, and I want students to take their time and respond thoroughly, and I want to give them you know, a longer period of time to to be in there. so that that question is just so tricky without the context of well, why are they coming there? 'Cause that's depending on what the action is, I think really determines ⁓ how long I would expect them to to be using the product.
speaker-0: Well, and I guess that's another thing. The reason I thought this is a pretty nuanced question is also like how long it might take one student to do something maybe totally different than somebody else. So even even if you have like a minute, like it's only fifteen minutes. Well, maybe that's too long for some kids and maybe it's not long enough for others. So I I thought that was a harder question because I think there's There's too many things at play there to really have like a here's the you know, here's the concrete easy answer. Or I think that one's not an easy answer.
speaker-1: No, that's a that's an excellent point. ⁓ but you know, at least having the conversation around it, I think is beneficial. ⁓ I agree. ⁓ 'cause if it's one of those things where ⁓ it's a five minute a day thing that we do and it's like, okay, well, is that giving you the value for what you need ⁓ in the long run? ⁓ so yeah, that's a good discussion point, but agreed. Very d it seems like such a simple question, but it's it's really not. Which gets even harder.
speaker-0: Yeah. Yes, this last question. ⁓ I know. So what evidence? Is there that it, you know, impacts student learning? Like
speaker-1: So you and I have had some really great conversations about this. About like it is so we do our best, I think, in the world of education to try and show that students are are learning, right? That they they're improving. ⁓ and we try to make it as clear cut as possible. ⁓ and we try to say, like, ⁓ because they did this activity and then they did this activity and they improved from this time to this time, that has meant that they're learning. And we feel really good about that, right? Like yeah, I do think people are stri you know, we really strive to achieve that, to have that visibility, not only for the student and the parent, but also to be able to prove yes, what we're what we're doing is is working. Yeah. I think the trick is there are so many variables to it. I know. I don't know how you I don't know how it's so hard I think to prove that any one piece, especially a technology piece, is the the the thing yeah that cost the student learning to improve. Yeah. ⁓ there's just so many variables. I know. You know, you brought up a really good point of like it starts with did the teachers get training on how to use the technology product? Do the teachers know how to use Schoology to to its utmost? Yeah. That That very well could be a a pivotal difference between making an impact and not.
speaker-0: Yeah, and I think what's interesting is that ⁓ I think people want that ⁓ they want the program that fixes the thing. Like if we could just use this and then our math scores go up. And yeah, wouldn't that be wouldn't that be great if it weren't that simple? But I remember ⁓ when I was still at the district level, we did a book study and then the author came and spoke to us. It was Dr. Daniel Willingham from University of Virginia. He was great. So he wrote this book called When Can You Trust the Experts. And it was about the challenges of educational research to prove efficacy and learning. And one of the challenges is you have to have randomized control trials. And setting those up is not for the classroom teacher to know how to do. And then you have to decide who am I sacrificing as the control group and who am I trying the thing with? And then What's the cost of like doing like so not only is it there's so many variables, but just even getting the right evidence of that is extremely difficult. And I think that's you know, one of the challenges that that Hattie found when he, you know, I have my I have mixed feelings on John Hattie. Some of the things that he said were highly effective strategies. I think Danny Willingham's metaphor, which I loved, was you can build the perfect pendulum and then you take it on a ship and it won't work because it's designed for a very specific context in a very specific setting. And so those so are those clinical trials, those random random randomized control trials are, yeah, that worked great for this set of kids who have this specific issue with this specific teacher. And it's really hard to mimic that. ⁓ so I don't I thought that was by far the the most difficult of the questions. And I was almost like, what were they thinking they were going to get out of that? ⁓ what was the expectation? But one thing I really liked, and I ⁓ if you know, when you look at the the whole letter that they wrote, there were two things I really appreciated. One was this idea of shared responsibility of what states and school districts should. And there's a list of bullets. The very last one though is Support professional learning that helps educators integrate technology effectively into instruction. So I really appreciated that guidance for districts and schools. And then for the ed tech providers, you know, they're encouraged to ⁓ support educators with implementation resources and professional learning. And I think so much hinges on that one thing. Like, yeah, like it's really comes down to. to PD if people are even using it well. So ⁓ anyway, ⁓ I thought it was a fascinating
speaker-1: Yeah, and support along the way, right? Like ⁓ I remember being like a pilot teacher for trying out a piece of educational technology and it was performance matters back in the day, our sister product. Yeah. And because I was so involved at the jump, right, I got to see the huge benefit. And then we did PD and people were like, Okay, it's this whole new system. And they were, you know. trying to learn and then it was like go forth and conquer. And they were missing all the context that I had been able to gather. Right. So it was a lot of a lot of my job was just going around to people and showing them the power and what they could do in their classrooms. And ⁓ so to have that continued support, I think really does dep help determine whether that ⁓ piece of technology actually can improve student learning or outcomes. I don't know. It's such a tough tough question. Yeah.
speaker-0: I know. But I'm
speaker-1: Good to have the conversations. Yeah. Yeah.
speaker-0: That and that I think that was part of the whole point of that was let's start having conversations about this. And and hopefully this isn't I'd love to see like a V two and like then what or examples or whatever. So ⁓ yeah, I thought it was I thought it was a good follow-up to the screen time, you know, conversation that people are having. And then the larger issue of like what are we like what are we doing and why? Like when it gets down to it.
speaker-1: You know, like it it just translates into even like your personal life. Like for a while I had some apps that I was I was like, ⁓ that's such a cool concept. Like that's so great. I need to have that. Like I have to have this. I have to have this subscription. This is like really, really like what a cool piece of technology. But then I realized like it's not actually doing anything for me. It's not like it wasn't, you know, like I just w thought through some of these questions, if you think about it in my my And I was like, I need to not do this anymore. Right. The very cool piece of technology. Yeah. Very lovely that they came up with it, but it's just not helping me. ⁓ and you know, having those conversations every so often and making those decisions, I think, is is healthy. Yeah.
speaker-0: Well, we encourage everyone to check it out if you haven't already. ⁓ and you know, as you go forth and conquer, ⁓ remember that the idea of transparency, this idea of like being really visible with what you're using and why, I think it's gonna become you know more important than ever in this coming school year.
speaker-1: Agreed.
speaker-0: Well, thanks for joining this episode of the Schoology Learning podcast. Hope to see you next time where we'll talk about some more topics of interest and of course talking about our favorite platform, Schoology.
speaker-1: And in the meantime, if you ⁓ click on the user toolbox at the bottom of the Schoology page, there are lots of resources out there, including other episodes of this podcast to listen to. Until next time.
speaker-0: And hope to see you next time. Thanks all.
