The Man Behind Post One: A Marine Security Guard on Serving in New Delhi, Togo, and Ottawa

Matthew Kearse: Welcome to the Post One podcast. My name is Matthew Kurse and I'm today's guest host. In a very special episode, I will be turning the microphone around to ask James about his MSG experience, stories from abroad, and some behind the scenes questions about the podcast. Welcome, James.
James: Thanks. It's good to be a guest on my own podcast here.
Matthew Kearse: It's I I I've seen the podcast grow over the last six months. And as you know, I I post the episodes on one of the MSG Facebook groups, but I've often wanted to ask you a bunch of questions. So let's let's get into it. What made you want to step on the yellow footprints all those years ago?
James: Fire away. become a Marine, is that what you're asking me? Gosh. So that's a question I I think I s really didn't know the answer to until years and years and years later. But I did write a whole book about this, so the the the it's out there, it's public. But it is it's it's a little heavy. So I grew up in a very abusive situation. I had a stepfather who used to call me faggot and pussy and those kind of things. So as a kid, I always kind of felt inferior and I I think I still carried that with me. So for whatever reason, I thought joining the Marine Corps would make me strong, make me tough, make me not a pussy, not a faggot, those kind of things. So I signed up without any hesitation at all. And I never considered any other branch of service. I never considered doing anything else except being a Marine. Once I had that idea in my head, I knew that's what I was gonna do. The thing about that though is at the time I didn't ever think past boot camp. For me at 17, boot camp was that huge obstacle, that challenge. I just gotta get through that. And as we all know, boot camp is really the easiest part of the Marine Corps. Once you get out of boot camp and you start having to make decisions on your own, that's really where it becomes difficult. So I never thought about an MOS. I never thought about what the fleet was gonna be like. I never realized that I was gonna end up in Fallujah a exactly a year after I went to boot camp. So that's really where my mindset was. And I mean I at forty-one now, I have all these, you know, retrospective thoughts about what the hell I was doing. But I really just think it was a weird time to be in the Marine Corps. You know, it was two years after nine eleven. All the wars were still hot. We were still looking for our weapons of mass destruction. And me as a young kid, I believed all that stuff. Like I I totally supported the mission. I thought everything we were doing was the right thing to do. And long story short, that's how I ended up in the Marine Corps and my first duty station was at the first combat engineer battalion in Pendleton.
Matthew Kearse: You said you did a a one deployment to Fallujah circa four?
James: Yep, one deployment. I got deployed to Fallujah in two thousand four. That was right when you know, it was the second battle of Fallujah. it was, I think, one of the bloodiest battles. Now, with all with the caveat, I was not a grunt. I was an engineer and I never actually did engineer stuff. When I deployed, I was a PFC and I got promoted to Lance Corporal in Iraq. And I did all the stuff that PFCs and Lance corporals do. Fire watch, convoy security, stur burn pits, like all the all the the BS work, that's what I did. we did go outside the wire, obviously during, you know, convoys and those sorts of things, but I can't say that I was like house to house fighting or anything like that. I lived on Camp Fallujah, you know, we got mortared pretty regularly, we got shot at pretty regularly. So I feel like I got the wartime experience down.
Matthew Kearse: That must have been pretty tough. We I remember learning about the second battle of Fallujah. I I came about a year after you. I I did time in Afghanistan, but it was definitely pretty hot over there when I was turning wrenches in Afghanistan doing way more pogey work than you, working on airplanes, but no, it was we were envious of all the of all the all you guys and gals over there getting some in Iraq. I mean truly we were envious as Marines that we weren't getting shot at at the time.
James: Well y you know. The thing is that all that stuff, it became a bigger deal as I aged. At the time, yes, that I mean, like, I remember being scared and I only the dog tags, for example, used to turn my neck green. So I only wore them on days I thought I was gonna die. So I definitely had those thoughts where like today could be the last day. But at the same time, the gravity of all that stuff never really impacted me until long after I got out, meaning like These are 17, 18-year-old kids fighting a war. Like that shouldn't be a thing, but it is. And it's a pretty big deal when you think about it. The other part of that is when we were in just about everybody had street cred in Afghanistan or Iraq. When you think about it now, for the last, I don't know, 15, some odd years, there's Marines who never even saw combat. To us, that wasn't even a thing. Like when you ran into another combat vet, it was like, yeah, you know, he went to Fallujah, he went to Al-Assad, he went here and there. Now when you run into combat vets, I think the people in the Marine Corps now, even the older ones, look at us as like unicorns, the same way we probably looked at like Desert Storm or or Vietnam veterans.
Matthew Kearse: That's an interesting observation. I never thought about that. So how much time was elapsed between the end of that deployment and you I guess yeah. How did you get to S G school from there?
James: Yeah, almost instantly. So I didn't really know what MSG was. The you know, now that I've talked to enough people about their MSG's experience, my journey to MSG was not unique. I didn't really know what MSG was. we had gotten back from Iraq. We were doing our workup for the next deployment. The MSG recruiters came. My platoon sergeant, who was a former MSG, he, you know, was like, Hey, Lance Corporal Curry, go talk to those recruit those MSG recruiters. And you know, I was still in that mode. I do what I'm told. So I literally went over to the table, talked to him, tried to like understand what was going on. He screened me and then I think within a month or two I had orders. It happened that quickly. It it it it to me, it just I didn't realize like, you're gonna do this this really cool duty. It was just I told did what I was told to do. The orders came and then my that was my next assignment in the Marine Corps. I wasn't really processing like all of this, you know, you're going to do this special duty, you're going to, you know, the school's pretty tough. None of that really dawned on me until I think when I got to the schoolhouse and realized just how difficult it actually was.
Matthew Kearse: What did you think of MSG School?
James: I thought it was the most difficult academic military training up to that point I had gone through because they focused a lot on academics, meaning like what they taught you, you had to be able to understand that and then take a test showing that you comprehended that knowledge. That was fairly easy because I always felt like I was a good student. I shouldn't say it was fairly easy, but it I I knew I wasn't gonna fail that. The the problem I think I had with MSG school was the amount of scrutiny that was placed on you as a person, like who you are. Those were things that no one had ever questioned or even brought to my attention. Like, why are you doing this? Why, what's the thought process behind that? And then your peers evaluated you, which I think when I talked to you about this, you had some knowledge of what your peers said about you. I don't have knowledge of that. I think in hindsight, some of the questions they asked me on the board might have come from those peer valuations, but I never I I don't know, I just didn't think to question my peers and thank God they said good things about me, or I would have never got out to post. But MSG School was the the first time where I thought things were were really tough in terms of what they were scrutinizing. But at the same time, it's still a military school. If you fail something, they recycled you a couple of times. Luckily that didn't happen to me, but certainly there were people who had that. I think most people who did have some type of issue where they weren't passing, at least in my class, it was on the range. And those people were taken back to the range and they were, you know, remediated until they passed. But on the same token, I do remember there were people who were recommended for termination and then were also terminated at the board who I later ran into out at post. So I don't know what happened between the time they were terminated and then, you know, how they ended up at post, but there was a handful of people who did end up going out the post after. being recommended for termination. I don't know if you experienced that same thing, but it was certainly something that I saw.
Matthew Kearse: I I definitely don't remember seeing anybody getting dropped or recommended for drop and later ran into but the attrition rate was whatever they said it was. I don't know if it was ten or twenty percent, but it was as advertised, especially that last week, it was a b board week. We just lost people left and right it seemed. The last week at the school.
James: Mm-hmm. Yeah, the thing I remember the most, I mean, I've ha have a vivid memory, of the chief instructor coming into the room and saying, you know, this is not a PT academy. This is not a we don't practice sleep deprivation. And they did all that stuff. I mean, it was a PT academy. It was, they did practice sleep deprivation because I think we went to school on Saturday too for half a day. So it was five days a week plus Saturday. And then we studied a lot. So like we were always sleep deprived. There was I always felt tired. There was never a time I thought like, man, I am well rested today. And that was kind of the theme for the rest of MSG duty based on how we stood post. You know, in most of my post you stood days, eaves, mids in that order. And there was never a time where you're well rested, you know, going from one right to the other. Because there's always all right, you got mids, You gotta go PT after mids, and then you have to do some social event. You have to do whatever your collateral duty is, you have to do whatever the deck commander's telling you to do. Blah blah blah all these things. Guard school. So like MSG school, I guess, in a sense, set you up for what was gonna happen at post.
Matthew Kearse: So what was your first post and what was the biggest culture shock at arriving at that embassy?
James: So I think you know what my first post was. It was New Delhi, India. And I don't I definitely know I didn't pick India, but I think I might have picked that part of the world, and that's that's where I ended up. getting to India, you know, I remember getting off the plane and seeing the chaos that was India. In New Delhi, there's no such thing as lines, there's no such thing as lanes. Everything is absolute chaos. It's hot, it stinks, there's garbage on the street. The the people were fairly nice. I mean, I I never felt like the local people didn't like us there. But the culture shock probably had initial culture shock was was just those things, seeing, you know, the craziness that that New Delhi is that I had never experienced before. Even going to the Middle East on a deployment is a lot different because it's a very controlled environment. You're mainly on the bases, all of that, you're around Marines all the time. So culturally, the Indian stuff. When I think about dealing with the local staff, they don't know that the word no is a word and it means something. Everything is yes, even when it's no. And that was frustrating. It's like, okay, do you actually mean no or do you actually mean you know, just trying to communicate? Because everyone you deal with, at least at the embassy, is always afraid of losing their job in some capacity. So they always want to please you in that sense. And then just you know, cleanliness is not really a thing. I got really sick once with dysentery, had to go to the hospital, which going to an Indian hospital is not exactly the same thing as going to an American hospital, as many people can imagine. and then culturally in the Marine Corps a lot different because I was used to the fleet and even though I was only in the fleet for two years, it the the culture shock between the two different worlds that the Marine Corps is. And mystery duty is a lot different as most of people know because we've talked about it a million times on this podcast, where the way you act in the fleet is just simply not acceptable in the embassy environment. You're expected to be more of a human, independent thinker, be articulate, small talk, all these things that they don't teach in the Marine Corps or that they discourage in the Marine Corps. You have to be all of those things as an MSG. And that culture shock was a little bit it was it was difficult because I couldn't grasp those concepts initially. It was it was very challenging for me. so culturally, those are the things that I think about. There's the other obvious stuff. Food. I mean, I don't particularly like Indian food. I don't like it. I didn't like it then and I still don't like it. you know, Indian entertainment, the music is really annoying. but overwhelmingly, I had a good time in India. I liked the Marines, I liked the people. some of the posts I served at had an anti-American sentiment. They did not have that. And generally speaking, the Indian people liked Americans. So overwhelmingly, that was a a really positive environment.
Matthew Kearse: What were your other two posts?
James: After that I went to Lomey Togo and I did choose that, believe it or not. I didn't know where Togo was initially, but I saw that it was open, so I thought I'm never gonna go to Africa on my own. So I went to so I chose Lome and I got it. And Lomay reminded me of I don't know if you remember those old Sally Struthers commercials where they would be like, just a dollar a day can feed a child for a week. That's what Togo was like. It was poverty like I had never seen before. It was a developing nation in a way that I I never witnessed in in my, you know, 21 years on this planet at that time. I remember having a conversation with our driver once we drove past this building and I asked him what it was. And he's like, that's our Congress building. And I was like, Togo has a Congress. He's like, Not yet. You know, where we wouldn't be having that type of conversation in in in United States. Like we have a well established government. They had just recovered from a civil war. So it was just a totally different eye-opening experience. But same thing. Those those developing countries are they're they're not fun in the beginning. There's really nowhere to go to hang out. There's, you know, you can't really go to the restaurants. I mean, there are a few, but it it's not like you know what you would experience being, you know, stationed in India or even Europe. But the camaraderie we had there. was unmatched. We did not need a detachment commander. Like my detachment, the watchstanders were such a tight knit group who genuinely looked out for each other. And I have yet to experience that outside of the the combat environment on the MSG program because a lot of detachments, once you get comfortable in the country, you're basically, you know, you have your own social circle, you have your own social life, and the Marines are kind of just people you see in passing or at work and that sort of thing. Whereas like Togo, no, we worked together, we hung out together, we spent a lot of time with each other, you we really got to know each other. And with that we we looked out for each other.
Matthew Kearse: No, that's that's that's a trend I've heard over the last twenty some odd years. The poorer the country, the worse the country, the more dangerous or austere or extant the circumstances are, the closer the detachment is, the closer the community is to the detachment. And it's not even a function of size, it's a how how nice is it and how dangerous is it? So you you alluded to your third post being, would you say Europe? Can was that Ottawa?
James: Canada. Yes, I was stationed in Ottawa for my last post.
Matthew Kearse: So how how are the mean streets of Ottawa?
James: so people, you know, it's interesting. People I don't know if when you were in MSG school, when people would learn they were being assigned to Canada as their first post, and they'd make jokes like, Yeah, the detachment band is gonna come pick you up here in Quantico and that sort of thing. Canada was nice. I was in the whole detachment was third posters. So all of us were were good to go. Nobody like snapping in, nobody was trying to figure out life as an MSG. Most of us had asked to go there. Given that I had gone to Iraq, India, I was like during a command visit, my CO asked me where I want to go next. And I told him, I was like, dude, I need to go to Canada because A, I knew I was getting out, but I also need to go somewhere where you can drink the water. Like this, this place is I I liked the developing countries, but it I was getting burnt out. And I was like, I need to be able to, you know, go somewhere that was sort of normal. And he I think he presented me with Canada and I was like, I'd love to go there. And that I ended up getting assigned to Canada just simply based on that. Now To be fair, I don't think there's a lot of competition for MSGs going to Canada. I don't think most people want to go there. All of us in my detachment in Canada were on our way out. We knew we were getting out. I don't think any of them re-enlisted. And Canada was an easy transition back to the United States. I EAS'd from Fort Drum, which is upstate New York. And we used that's the base we used to go to for commissary runs and that sort of thing. So, like the transition from active duty to out of the Marine Corps. was seamless just because logistically it was close to the United States. And Canada was a good post. The coldest I've ever been in my life was in Canada. and I come from Pennsylvania, so I thought I understood cold. Canada was a whole new, new kind of cold. But the other thing is Canada, we didn't have the luxuries that MSGs are usually afforded in other places. We didn't have a house staff. We didn't have a driver. Our house, the Marine House, was a former halfway house. So It wasn't nice. It was just a big house. The roof leaked, the heat didn't work sometimes. Nothing luxurious about this place at all. it was a self-drive post, which for people who haven't driven in the snow, that can be tough for MSGs in Canada because six months out of the year, the streets are snow covered. the embassy environment was different. Canada is the US Embassy in Canada is right in the middle of downtown Austin. There's no setback. You can literally drive right up to the embassy. And most of us know who've served in embassies overseas, there's usually some setback. There's a gate, there's those sorts, those sorts of things. Canada wasn't like that. Canada was just basically like a federal building, right in the middle of anything. You could walk up to it, you could drive up to it. And it did present security challenges. Although luckily Canada had you know, competent local law enforcement. But Canada at that time hated President Bush. And the protests that we would see were absolutely huge. They were thousands of people would surround the embassy. And although, you know, Canadians don't really know how to protest and nothing ever got violent, but we would often have those thoughts where, you know, if they breach this building, there's not really a whole lot we can do about that.
Matthew Kearse: You did did you have any sleepless nights in Canada about the about coming over the walls?
James: Not really. No. No. Canada
Matthew Kearse: But it it's interesting you say that though, because my my fourth post in Geneva, it was the house wasn't as good as some of the other houses though. And we, you know, we had a cook maybe three days a week and it was mostly self drive, but you're also in a extremely first world country and you you have all the amenities, but it yeah, it's expensive. So it's like you kind of miss you complain about the third world where you have four house staff and twenty four seven drivers and you know, you go out and drink all night for twenty bucks.
James: Right, right. Well, do you remember in India? Sure, but do you remember in India we had a guy who only shined our shoes? You know, like how ridiculous that is Exactly
Matthew Kearse: I I went to his wedding. I went to that guy's wedding. Yeah, I got pictures. It was great. We were treated as like family of the groom. It was it was an amazing experience. His dad, his dad shined shoes for us and he died and his son took over and did it for years.
James: Yeah, and then you know it Yes, and I remember he was very proud of that. In Canada, we didn't have that. The other thing is we were I this is this sounds super elitist, but we were just treated like normal people. Whereas in the embassy community and some of the other places, even though you're still at the bottom rung of the embassy ladder, people still did give you a certain amount of respect. Canada wasn't like that. The other thing, interesting about Canada, is in most places, you can tell the difference between the LES and the cleared Americans. In Canada, you can't. except by their badge. So you sometimes if their bla badge isn't displayed, you may not know that you're not talking to an American or a a Canadian. Now most of the time you do, but not always. Sometimes it's questionable. And then Canada has a handful of LES who are Americans. They stayed in the country. There's a few there's at least one MSG where, you know, he married local, stayed in the country and then became an employee at the embassy. So there are some locally engaged staff who are Americans who are not you know, family members or or spouses of of the embassy employees. That's different than, you know, some other places you work because you it's very obvious that they're not, you know, cleared Americans.
Matthew Kearse: yeah, I I ran into that once myself. The there was an FSNI in Frankfurt. That's a retired Marine Gunnery sergeant. I didn't know who I was talking to. I think he like helping us at the airport as we we were flying through, and he introduced himself and I didn't catch it. I thought I I don't know who he thought it was, maybe like an RSO office or something, but yeah, it was like a FSN I. I was like, This is so confusing. Like he got out, moved over there, I guess, with his wife and got a work visa and was working at the embassy. Spoke English and obviously, obviously English and German, but
James: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. The the issues that we had in Canada though, you know, I mentioned the protest. That w th that wasn't really an issue. What the things like protests, the only thing that would ever trouble that would cause us is the police shut the roads down. So it would be hard to get to the embassy physically. The main problem in Canada was like, you know, visa applicants like having medical emergencies or, you know, entitled employees who think they don't have to go through security stuff. There wasn't the type of issues you have in other places. We didn't really worry about intruders. We didn't worry occasional bomb scare, but nothing serious. Cause again, there's competent local law enforcement. And we had a pretty good relationship with them. and in Canada, the RCMP are the people who guard the embassy. And whenever something really crazy happened, we just called them and they took care of it. So there's there's very limited things that the MSGs really have to deal with other than the, you know. Diplomats leaving classified information in random places that they shouldn't.
Matthew Kearse: So what's a given all three of your posts, what is a moment from your MSG time that still replays in your head all these years later?
James: That's a tough question. I what comes to mind when you just asked me that is I do remember walking out of the front door of the embassy in Canada and a guy rode by on his bicycle and spit in my face and called me a bush protector. And whatever. I just thought that Canadians were supposed to be nice and not like that. So it it for a while it skewed my vision of Canada. there's some other stuff, you know, like the things we experienced in New Delhi. I can't I can't remember a specific incident or whatever, but I do remember the leadership challenges. I remember the Marine Corps ball in New Delhi, which was I think one of the best that I've seen. nothing, you know, n I didn't have any really crazy instances. I remember the POTUS visits, the sex state visits, and again, nothing crazy there, but they were memorable because you just get to see how that machine operates. And you also get to participate in it a little bit. In fact, I'm having a flashback as we're talking. I believe George Bush came to India when me and you were there, right? You were you I I think you were there, right?
Matthew Kearse: George Bush, Laura Bush, and Condoleezza Rice at the same time. Yes, what was there?
James: Right. And yes, so here's let tell me if you remember this. Do you remember somebody set the fire alarm off in the hotel? So I was on post at the hotel. You were on post at the embassy. And I remember you telling me this your end of the story, where the senior or the DRCO called you and he was like, Hey, Kurse, you might have to go physically open the parking garage to let the presidents motorcade in if they have to evacuate the hotel. Does that sound familiar?
Matthew Kearse: Yes, and I was terrified because no amount of my training could have prepared me to open the garage door for the beast as a twenty one year old.
James: Yes. Right. And I didn't I didn't know that part of the story until you had told me that. But 'cause that from the hotel side of that, yes, someone set the fire alarms off only on the the floors where, you know, the Americans were. but I do remember that the Secret Service going crazy, DS was going crazy talking about how we're gonna move these people out of here. But I also remember seeing the Secret Service, they had some kind of device where they could look through the walls and they went up and down each hallway looking for fire I guess and when they realized there was no fire, they chose not to evacuate the president But had that happened, you could have been that MSG who opened up the parking garage manually for the President of the United States.
Matthew Kearse: We you hear these stories, these legendary stories about President Reagan like calling embassies and wishing these Marines happ Merry Christmas and people hanging up on the president because they don't believe it is who it is, or y holding a door for a head of state, or handing I years later when I was in DS, Secretary John Kerry asked me if I had a rubber band, and I happened to have one on my wrist and I handed to him and he said thank you. Like you should never know the interactions you're gonna have with
James: Ha ha.
Matthew Kearse: You like literally cabinet level officials and heads of state until until you get on MST duty.
James: Yeah, you know, th those kind of things for some reason they don't really stick out of my head because I remember, you know, President Bush came over to us, shook our hand, talked to us for a little bit. But it I mean, it wasn't deep or anything. And I never those interactions to me were they were just doing that because that's what they were supposed to do. Now don't get me wrong, they were pretty cool. Meeting the president was super cool. Meeting the first lady, I remember when Laura Bush walked into the room, I remember exactly what she said. She talked about where did all these handsome Marines come from? It was almost like a flirty thing, but it was funny because it's like you're the first lady of the United States It was it was very personable. ex you know, you sometimes don't expect that. Same with I think we met Bill Gates when we when he came to India. Arnold Schwarzenegger came to visit in Canada 'cause at the time he was the governor of California and he was friends with the US ambassador to Canada. We got to take a picture with him. All those things were super, super cool. But at the end of the day, they I mean, like, I don't know them. I didn't get to like, you know, do anything exciting with them. But I will tell you, it is kind of neat to see those people when they're not on TV. Meaning like the way they're interacting with their staff, the way they're walking or the way, you know, it the just the things you don't get to see on TV. And it humanizes them. You you know, when when President Bush is in the room talking to all the MSGs, you can't help but look at him be like, he's just some dude. You know, I mean he's not just some dude, but that that's kind of the way you I looked at it because, you know, it's it's you can't help but be humanized by that. And I I I mean I'm sure you experienced that as a DS agent, seeing, you know, h people who are so important or people who aren't perceived to be important. At the end of the day, they're just people.
Matthew Kearse: At the end of the day, everyone just has a cell phone and they still gotta open doors. Important people always seem to be getting herded around and they never know where they're going 'cause they they've never been to that venue before. That's a common thing. I always seem they're always lost.
James: Yes. Right. Yes, yes. Cause I I I have kind of a memory of that where I was standing post at the hotel and President Bush and the first lady got off the elevator and the Marines are set up right there. And he paused for a minute and obviously came over and talked to us, but I don't think he actually wanted to talk to us. I think it was because he was lost and didn't know where to go. And it took a second for the Secret Service to like guide him to where he needed to be.
Matthew Kearse: Yeah, no, those those those are those random experiences that you get on MSG duty. I mean, w in the fleet, you would meet a a general with a thousand Marines. There's no FaceTime. And on MSG duty, you're meeting celebrities, you're meeting heads of state, you're having people talk to you and make you address them by their first name and they're fifteen pay grades above you. You know, you have ambassadors and generals and cabinet level officials. Hey, how you doing? I'm Steve, how you doing, I'm Frank, and you're like,
James: Mm-hmm.
Matthew Kearse: Caminet level official.
James: Yes, y I'll tell you, most of the people were really cool about that. But do you I don't remember his name, but do you remember that DAO colonel in Delhi who demanded to be saluted every time he walked in the lobby? I don't remember his name. I wish I did. But I had my first one of my first days on post, I didn't know who because he didn't wear uniform to work. So how the hell would I know who he is? I remember him showing his badge, asking me, Do I know who he is? And I'm like, no, sir. I actually don't know who he
Matthew Kearse: Yes.
James: Got the whole rundown, how he's an O six and whatever, whatever. And I was like, Okay. That salute was very important to him.
Matthew Kearse: So what was tell me about a difficult decision you had to make during one of your posts. What and what was going through your head when you were by yourself, being being the being the man in the box when you had to make a hard decision?
James: Difficult decision. my gosh. Well, yeah, I I don't I don't know if I have a good answer for that. I mean, look, let me give an example. When you find classified information out in the open in the senior RSO's office, what do you do? Do you write them up? Or
Matthew Kearse: Depends on how close you are with the RSO. Is it a good relationship with the RSO office?
James: Well, that that happened at a post that happened at a post for me. And it it ended up not being a big deal. But, you know, you're you don't want to write up your boss, but at the same time you're worried you if you don't, then you're gonna get in trouble for not doing what you're supposed to do. So those kind of things, you know, presented itself. But then the social part of this, I mean, look, there's a little bit of now certainly I don't have the the story you have with the decommander who went berserk and started fighting folks, but I mean, you certainly see things where how do I say this? you know, certain wives are spending time with certain Marines, and it's like you know that relationship is a little bit more than it's supposed to be. Do you say something or just keep your mouth shut? You know, stuff like that. So you you know, yeah. And I mean, to me, that's a fairly easy question to answer right now. But as a 19-year-old, like you're trying to do the right thing all the time, you're
Matthew Kearse: Yeah, no, I I saw f I saw a few of those myself. Yeah, no, it's the the yeah. Morally ambiguous questions.
James: told that you, you know, there's no gray area when it comes to what's right and wrong. You don't want to get in trouble. You don't want to get anybody else in trouble. You don't want to cause drama. And then stuff like you see stuff like that and you're like, what do I do in this situation? There's other things. You know, this isn't this isn't a big moral dilemma, but it is something that decisions you have to make in terms of your other fellow Marines. So you I I don't remember what the curfew was. Was it like two o'clock? I don't remember. Something like that.
Matthew Kearse: Three.
James: And three. Okay. So you're on post and you know half the detachment is out and they're not backed by curfew. What do you do?
Matthew Kearse: Yeah.
James: You know, and it's it's that kind of stuff. Cause it's like if I wake up to Deck Commander, this is gonna be a shit show. If they come back without incident, we're good. If there's a reason they're not coming back because they're in, you know, an Indian jail somewhere, you're gonna be in trouble for not reporting that. So there there are those kind of things, seemingly small, could snowball into something really quickly. and yeah, sure I was presented with those most of the time. I'm gonna be honest with you. I did not tell on the Marines, you know. Should I have? I don't know. Nothing ever thank God, nothing ever happened. But you know, those are the the seemingly small decisions that have the potential to be huge decisions. The other stuff of consequence, like related to your mission. No. I always know what to do. You know, if you have a walk in, there's procedures to handle that. There was never any doubt in if if something was supposed to be handled, if you know, I never had an intruder, if you you know how to do all that kind of stuff. And then same thing with like i any violation of the rules, you you know how to handle those kind of things. It just where it gets more gray is when you're dealing with your peers. And you know, it really depended on whatever mood command was in, because sometimes people didn't get in trouble or they just got talked to, counseled for, you know, breaking curfew. And then you see other times people get an NJP'd and sent home. So you really sometimes were caught between a rock and a hard place. And then, you know, I for at least my first two tours, I was always the junior person in the attachment. So you didn't want to piss off all these other people who were at, you know, who outranked you. So it it it it was always a a challenge in in that sense. So that that happened quite a bit, I would say. I think there was always that how do we handle this situation? And it could also be You know, the other way because I have seen Marines ask drivers to lie in the logbook or, you know, lie when questioned by the dead detachment commander, those kind of things. And then I've also seen dead commanders do shady things too, as you know. So I mean, you always get caught in that balance because should you always be reporting it? Sure. But there there's a lot of other stuff you have to weigh in in that when those things come up.
Matthew Kearse: So James this shows up for MSG school and James that leaves your last post. How did S G duty change you?
James: Hmm. Well, I think it deprogrammed the Fleet Marine Atomy. And I've I've mentioned this a bunch of times of of the type of marine the fleet has compared to what an MSG is. but the the MSG program, it matures you, it makes you someone who can think on your feet, comfortable with your decisions, and it prepares you for The civilian world, not a hundred percent, but it definitely gets you there probably faster than a regular fleet marine. Communication skills, things I still use in my regular everyday life that I learned from the State Department is, you know, how to solve problems without creating tension, how to make very difficult decisions about things of consequence and make it seem like it's the person's idea that it was they came up with it in order to. you know, kind of make everybody happy. dealing with high ranking people, you know, I went on later in life to to work with some larger than life personalities and working with them, I learned that on the MSG program. At the end of the day, these people are just people and a lot of times in order to get them to function or do the things you need them to do really is about how to manipulate their ego in a positive way.
Matthew Kearse: That's interesting. I never thought about that. I always thought it was just about the the soft skills and the diplomacy and just the international exposure. But no, those are all really good points.
James: Yeah, I mean, to me, those are a given. Like, you know, I had never really been overseas except on deployments before MSG. So you you certainly learn to work independently in a foreign country where you don't have the safety and security of a base. You can't go to the commissary. There's no well, some of them have commissaries, but I think the point is you still have to go out and learn how to function out in the community, whereas in a base, you don't have to do that. You could live on that base the in duration of your assignment and not be impacted by anything. And MSG is not like that. You still have to interact with locals and that that is a skill. And I've seen MSGs who didn't quite ever master that. And you have to remember, you are a guest in the whatever country you're in, and you have to act like a guest. You can't force people to be an American. Everyone has seen those ugly Americans overseas. And that is definitely a real thing. those type of things though I feel like is a are a given. The other things, the maturity aspect of being an MSG, I I really think I I learned that part of it. you know, that set me up for success in the civilian world. the other stuff, the the just the soft skills, yes, very important. they did teach me that 'cause I didn't have that, but all of that combined, I think the the biggest thing is the, you know, dealing with larger than life people or egos or those kind of things.
Matthew Kearse: What do you miss most about MSG Duty?
James: The travel. even though I feel like I travel quite a bit in my professional and personal life, but the you don't get to go to the places MSG takes you and spend time there. Like I've been to plenty of places where you're in and out for work or whatever that are cool places, you just don't get the to experience that. overseas when you're an MSG, you really get to experience the country. You get to live there and it's not just there as a tourist. And that that's that's different. But I also think just the I I mean, I liked the embassy community for the most part. I liked being in that environment. So that that was kind of neat about being an MSG. And then, you know, the experiences in terms of meeting people, understanding that not everybody lives like Americans. They have different points of view. I think sometimes we think as Americans, everybody wants to be like us, and that's absolutely not true. But it's good to see it's fascinating to see how other people view us as Americans.
Matthew Kearse: That that is interesting. They love our our movies, our T V shows, our fashion and our music, but they ask why is there sugar in all of our food?
James: Yes. Or why doesn't our bread ever go bad?
Matthew Kearse: Why do you refrigerate your eggs and your butter?
James: Yes, yes. And you know, there's other things, mm not I didn't necessarily like it, but cultural differences. Even in Canada. You know, in Canada the milk comes in a bag. It doesn't come in a carton like it does here. so th there's definitely things you have to get used to.
Matthew Kearse: So let's switch gears. Let's switch gears. Let's talk about your podcast. So, what made you create this podcast in the first place?
James: And then okay. jeez. Yeah, I wish I could say that it was like a well thought out thing, but it really wasn't. I just thought that the MSG community is overlooked. When you think about the military, all if you if you Google stuff, it's, you know, special forces, Navy SEALs, elite units and army, air force, those kind of things. There's very little information about MSGs out there outside of what the Marine Corps or the State Department puts out there. And as, you know, anyone who's listened to any of the episodes on this podcast. There are MSGs out there doing amazing, heroic things, saving lives, you know, I mean literally saving lives, and dealing with things that that you'd never hear about. I feel like most people have probably heard of Benghazi, although not an MSG story, because there wasn't MSGs there, but attacks on diplomatic missions, facilities, those kind of things. You hear about it. You never really hear about what the MSG's role was. Like when you talk about what happened in Jeddah. Most people don't even know that story. But if they do, they only know it from the fact that, hey, Al Qaeda attacked the embassy. Well, who saved the embassy that day? One single Marine did that entire thing. The Zona Rosa attack in El Salvador. Who saved the civilians here? One single Marine. Four Marines died. You know, those are the stories that are not memorialized anywhere. And I think they have to be, and I think that's what this this podcast is about. Even the first American who was taken hostage in Iran was what? It was a Marine Security Guard. Most people don't know that. And I didn't know that either until I started doing this podcast. MSGs have a lot of really great stories that are impactful that impact history. And they're not told anywhere. But on top of that, there's also a lot of great like just stories, war stories, telling your buddies, you know, about what was going on, what we were experiencing in this post, what we were experiencing in that post. Like that story, you have told me many times about the deck commander who, you know, got into a fight and it was all bloody everywhere. That story to me does not get old. Every time I hear it or think about it, it is a fantastic story. And also just so you know, based on the ratings, apparently it it never gets old for our viewers too, because or listeners, because it is the highest rated episode on this podcast. It continually gets downloaded several times a day and people are listening to it. So Those are the kind of stories I think often go overlooked. And that that's really the goal of this podcast. I'll also tell you this podcast has introduced me to MSGs I would have never met otherwise. And that's the really fascinating part because I think I've interviewed MSGs from every generation going back to Vietnam. And as much as we like to think we've changed, we haven't. Standing post is still standing post. MSGs are exactly the same as they were. 50 years ago. The the weapons have changed, the technology has changed, but by and large, it's still the same stuff. They talk the same, they act the same, they do the same stuff. And that's kind of neat that you're able to, you know, I served in the MSG program almost 20 years ago, that I'm able to relate to MSGs who served 10 years ago or 50 years ago. I don't know if there's anything else like that in the in the military, but in the Marine Corps, it's such a unique job. most Marines don't even know it exists and if they do, they've heard about it. I feel like when you as a Marine, when you encounter another Marine, you instantly brow out. Like you talk about the Marine Corps, what you serve, all those kind of things. But when you run into an MSG, another MSG, that is a whole new level of browing out because you know that there's it's such a small group and only you each other know that the the what that is like. And that that's a pretty neat experience. Even today when I run into an MSG and white First question is well, once I find out they're an MSG, first question is always, you know, where did you serve? And, you know, what was your experience like? And there's I don't know, there's a camaraderie, an extra layer of camaraderie that I think goes beyond what other Marines experience.
Matthew Kearse: A hundred percent. It's not the first question is not when did you serve? It's where did you serve? What posts did you serve at? And it's always six degrees of Sergeant Kevin Bacon to figure out if you knew somebody from that era and to try to put all these pieces together. And no, I mean I I've I've nerded out on the episodes, especially the the you know the Vietnam era episodes from like the evacuation of Kanto and Saigon, the Tehran hostage crisis, even the first one that I
James: Where?
Matthew Kearse: vaguely aware of, but I don't I don't think it's really publicly known. Didn't last more more than a week or two, but like it was nonetheless horrific. Like it's these are stories that they need to be captured. And it's I mean speaking of that, you've you've got a lot of unaired footage. What what interviewer's story has just really stuck with you?
James: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah, so the Zona Rosa attack, where the four Marines died is the deadliest day in MSG history, sticks with me. it was the Marine I interviewed was Anton Kazooth. And when you're talking to him, the story is so compelling, but you could tell he he hasn't this is forty-one years ago this month, he hasn't recovered from it. And listening to him talk about that, he was a Lance Corporal. And listening to him talk about it. Still gets him very upset. And the the other part of that is, which this is kind of an unintended positive consequence of this podcast, is so many of these MSGs that I've talked to have told me they've never had the opportunity to tell their story before. Which, my personal opinion, that is a fallacy on the MSG command, because you have these Marines who are still alive who have really compelling stories who should be guest speakers in these classes and they're not. Talking to the first female Marine, I'm sorry, the first female MSG, listening to her tell her story about how of all places they sent her to Pakistan, the consulate got overrun, she was on post one, saved the day, and then the US government denied she was ever in the country. You know, things like that. To me, that would have been an opportunity to celebrate. And they didn't do that. And the female Marie I spoke to, she said that she had never had the opportunity to tell that story in its entirety. So that that's what's really kind of neat about the this podcast. And, you know, obviously like you, I have an interest in MSGs. This isn't, you I don't get paid to do this. So it is is kind of a hobby. but hearing those stories, a lot of them I've never heard before. The Jeddah one, I've heard before because I served with Sergeant Mantos. but even him, I don't think I've heard him tell that story in one shot from beginning to end. It was always pieces here, pieces there. You know, knowledge he could pass on when we were still on active duty. but so many of these these stories, I, I for for me, and I think since a lot of them have said it, it's the first time it's ever been told. And that's a pretty cool experience listening to them tell these stories. The other thing is, a lot of these Marines are not getting any younger and they're dying. So if it's not captured anywhere, they're gonna be dead and the stories are gonna with them.
Matthew Kearse: It's what what you're doing is great. It's like a time capsule. You're you're capturing these stories for posterity that not everybody wants to write a book, but to to get somebody to sit down for forty five to an hour and just tell about their experiences from thirty, forty, fifty years ago, ten years ago, five years ago. It's just it's absolutely fascinating because there's we have so much in common, but then there's also so many things that I've wanted to know. Like it seems like earlier generations they they'd call the debt commander the N C O I C.
James: Yep, yep. Which
Matthew Kearse: I'm curious when the term debt commander came around, stuff like that. It's a little bit different.
James: Yeah. And I think that is really fascinating because when you think about it, there's nowhere else in the military that operates like what MSG is. And it's it it's always been the bastard child of the Marine Corps, because I know this from first experien firsthand experience. I don't know if it's widespread, but because the MSGs have to answer to the State Department operationally, the Marine Corps hates that. And they'll they'll never say it out loud, but the Marine Corps does not work well with others. I don't care what they say. They don't, particularly other services. But when another agency like or another department like the State Department has operational control of these Marines. That bothers them. I I even down to the debt commander level, I've witnessed that conflict firsthand. Now, I think most people are accepting of it, like, hey, this is the way it is. This is what it how it has to be. But it doesn't seem right. If you are, let's say you're a debt commander with at least 10 years in the Marine Corps and your boss is suddenly somebody like you, Matt, who, you know, DS agent, civilian, that is problematic. They don't like that. There's a lot of ego involved there. Now, I think In recent years, meaning like the last decade or two, that relationship hasn't improved and has worked in harmony. And I think part of that is because a lot of DS agents are now former MSGs. I don't think that was the case. It also seems like, just based on what I'm learning from doing this podcast, is the relationship between the Marines and the RSO has evolved greatly. When you talk to some of these old time MSGs, either they didn't really talk to their RSO or Or they have nothing good to say about their RSO. That I don't think is true so much anymore. Sure, you have your isolated incidents, but you know, all of my RSOs, and there was a lot of them. I mean in India we had four, I think, maybe five. They were fantastic. They interacted with the detachment in an amazing way. In Togo, they got in a stack with us. I mean, it was, it was, it was a good situation. in Canada was a little bit different because the RSO functioned more like a diplomat rather than a law enforcement person. And he was very much removed from the day-to-day of the detachment. But, you know, I've talked to some of these Marines, I won't mention who. If you mention diplomatic security to one of the people I interviewed, and I'm not saying this publicly because he didn't want it public, but it's like a trigger word. The way he was treated when an incident went down at his embassy or his consulate was unreal. And i when he describes it it he has every right to be mad at those r so for doing what they did. But I think that's isolated, especially in the last couple of years. I mean, you could speak with more authority from the RSO perspective in terms of the RSOs generally have the Marines best interest in mind. But it's a unique position because you're you're battling, you're balancing the State Department needs with the MSG Mer needs. And they don't always they're not always the same.
Matthew Kearse: Absolutely. It it it pains me to hear from prior generations how an incident would happen and I mean back back in the day, twenty, thirty, forty years ago, RSOs truly were regional. There'd be one RSO per like every three or four countries. So nowadays, I mean even not nowadays, twenty years ago, there's few RSO shops are truly one person shops. It's one between one and five. So, I mean, hell, even in the war zones, there was as many as I think at one point Over a hundred RSOs in in Iraq. It was a obviously a lot of people. Yeah, Baghdad and all the consulates. But I I can categorically tell you in the last fifteen or so years, I probably went to 30 countries in my 14 years in DS. And the relationship between the Marines and the RSOs is is very good. It's very tight. Now the RSO may be more of like focus toward the front office, but the ARSOs.
James: Bag de idea.
Matthew Kearse: I don't want to say they're peers with the Marines, but it's kind of like a almost like a squad leader situation, like an RSO and the RSO is I'm sorry, the ARSOs are kind of like peers with the deck commander. They're they're kinda on the same level, but obviously the deck commander will still listen to them. But when the R A RSOs are talking to the to the Marines, yeah, they can talk on the same level, but it's like, hey, follow me. And they'll do it. And that's I I've seen really, really good relationships. Between ARSOs and Marines. And it does. It it absolutely leads to. I mean, by the time by the time I left DS several years ago, I think seven or eight of my MSG class of a hundred were MSGs. It's a really common pipeline to to federal law enforcement, the federal government, and just DS in general. Because it's I mean, a DS is very niche and nuanced. Who else you know would know about it outside of, you know, the executive protection or the embassy community, but MSGs are a natural pipeline in the DS. And it's I can I can affirmatively say that the relationship between MSGs and ARSOs is infinitely better than some of the unfortunate circumstances that some of your previous guests have served under. And that that pains me, but I I made it I went out of my way on MSG or on on in my time in DS to to try to develop my Marines, whether I was TDY there or whatever, stop, shoot the breeze for a few minutes, you know. I wasn't their peer, but I would absolutely try to develop them in every in any way I can, whether it often be education or I mean literally like just, hey guys, what are you thinking about doing after you get out of the Marines or after MSG duty or hey, maybe this post or that post or what's going on? I wasn't really making uniform corrections, but it was more just like, how can we make this better?
James: Yeah. Right. Yeah, you know, there's I I don't remember which incident it was. There was a Marine I talked to on the podcast who the RSO got the RSO left when the embassy got evacuated. And I thought that was strange because I was always led to believe the RSO was part of the essential personnel. But he said the RSO got evacuated and the Marines were left to their own devices. And I've heard that a handful of times from the different people I've interviewed. And I I don't know the mentality was at the time, but w I don't know, were RSOs once considered more I mean, I know they were part of the management office at one point, but was that how they were viewed? Or did it just, you know, this RSO said, I'm out
Matthew Kearse: There's probably more to the story. Like maybe the RSO had a family member that could not evacuate alone or something like that. I I doubt it was just them drop the keys and I'm out. But it may be. I I don't know. It's again different era, different time frame. But even when DS was still under I think it was under management or whatever, it it it was a little bit different, but on the ground, on the on the tactical level of the embassy, the last one to leave are gonna be, you know.
James: Sure.
Matthew Kearse: Marines, the RSOs, and the ambassador when you lower the flag and hand it over and get on the helicopter. I've heard numerous stories of a few other few other who's who in the zoo, but that's that those are the last ones out. The gun toters, because we gotta stick behind and destroy and burn everything and before we leave. I mean it's several of the embassies I've served at, Kuwait included, has been, you know, currently currently shut down due to the war in Iran. But like it's it's you never know how you could be in a completely safe developed country.
James: Mm-hmm.
Matthew Kearse: Like the you know, the Marines did in Egypt when the Arab Spring arrived at their doorstep circa was it around twenty ten? And before you know it, you've got a hundred thousand protesters outside. You know, like it is it can violent protesting and it could descend into madness. unthinkable countries where you've had decades of stability and before you know it, you know, never know, they could have come over the wall one day in Ottawa.
James: Violent protesters. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Well, there is no wall, so
Matthew Kearse: There'd have to be walls to begin with. so s what what's what's been a an unexpectedly funny story that a guest has told you?
James: Yeah. So I don't know if you remember the story from Colonel Hasty, who was a watchstander detachment commander and then battalion commander of of MSG. He told me when he met the ambassador in Vietnam, there was he had a drink in his hand and a hooker in his lap, and that's when he knew this was gonna be a good tour. I don't think I've ever heard a detachment commander say those words before. and that ambassador, yeah, that ambassador, I forget who his name, last name McNamara, I don't remember his first name, but he went on to do very great things. He's kind of famous in the State Department community. So to have him say that, I I like to hear that. It it 'cause you know, a lot of the ambassadors, especially nowadays, they're they're very much removed from a lot of the stuff that's going on. So just to hear the idea that you met the ambassador and he had a hooker in his lap, that I mean that that's that's so marine, right?
Matthew Kearse: Different times. Yeah, no, it's it's like you know, go when I was in I was in I was in Chad and beer there was four dollars. But when you give the beer bottle back, you get a three dollar deposit back on the bottle. Can you imagine that? The bottle costs four times as much as the beer does. You know, trying to explain that to somebody at at a bar in Alexandria, Virginia, or, you know, just just silly stories like that, you're right, across different eras, different time frames.
James: Yeah. So funny.
Matthew Kearse: that you you have to have done the duty. You have to have been overseas in a little embassy party sitting around and fireworks start going off. What's going on? I don't know, some local holiday.
James: Right, exactly. Yeah. I mean there's plenty of other like, you know, ridiculous stuff, you know. Luckily this never happened to me, but it could have. you know, getting locked out of the embassy and that there's nothing more embarrassing than the MSG who's locked out, you know, of the embassy.
Matthew Kearse: I it happened to one of my Marines in Kuwait. It was kind of funny.
James: So but you know what, this is kind of a old man situation where when I I don't remember if you had these, but when I got on the program we had the PR twenty-four. We didn't have the collapsible baton. And as most MSGs who carry the PR twenty-four know, the only thing that thing is good for is to hang your hat and to prop open doors so you don't get locked down.
Matthew Kearse: So I was actually the first MSG class on the expandable batons.
James: Yeah, we got those later, but that that PR and it's a great weapon. I just don't know what the MSG would ever use that for.
Matthew Kearse: Yeah, yeah. E epilogue, the marine house from well, I guess from my story in in Delhi, the ice machine behind the bar broke and all the ice melted, and in the very bottom of this massive ice maker was a a a steel pot like Kevlar helmet and a PR twenty four that had been lost for years that they had used to break ice up, but they left it in there and it just it just fell to the bottom.
James: I would I was just gonna say because you know, I I'm having a flashback here. I remember we used to bust ice in that in that ice maker with a PR twenty four. But I th but I think it was one of those white ones, you know, the like the training ones or
Matthew Kearse: we found it. Well apparently somebody fudged the numbers.
James: Yeah, that's funny. That's ridiculously funny.
Matthew Kearse: So so of all the guests you've interviewed so far and and looking where you want to go in the future, what what eras or posts or incidents are are you looking for that you haven't been able to make contact with?
James: Yeah, so look, Marines who served within the last ten years, I don't know where they are. They've like disappeared somewhere. I don't know. Or maybe it's because you don't really care about the alumni and nostalgia until you get old, whatever that means. But the Marines who served within the last ten years, I I have no touch not not in contact with them. They're not anywhere that I've been looking to find them. and a lot of things have happened in the last ten years that I think are important. And I'm talking, you know, embassies have been evacuated, bombings have happened. Things like that. the other thing is, you know, when we talk about the program, as much of it has not changed over the decades. A lot has changed. And just getting somebody who has first hand knowledge of what that is like, I mean, from what I understand, the school has become more professionalized, more standardized, which is is probably a a good thing. and just in the way since we didn't have MSAL when we were on the program, that now exists. Someone had to explain to me what that was. And I'm still debating whether or not I I think that's a good thing or not. I guess it is. Like more MSGs the better, right? But across the board, MSGs from the modern era, we haven't I haven't been able to talk to our reach and I I I would like to and just pick their brain about, you know, the same things we're talking about. Not just the operational stuff, but I would imagine life out in these countries hasn't changed much. It's the same antics that we were doing. but I would like to hear it firsthand. And then, you know, when we were on the program, some of the things I remember vividly is You know, serving under President Bush, people hated us in a lot of places. Is it like that now? How are they dealing with it? And then the other part of that is did you have Facebook, Twitter when you were on the program? No. I think MySpace was a thing, sort of, but it wasn't in widespread usage. I didn't have it. how are they dealing with MSGs now who, you know, social media is part of their life. You're not gonna get them to not use it. So how how are they dealing with it? And then the whole other stuff that we always has al have we've always talked about for years is the how does that factor into other parts of the mission, the CI mission and and just the image of the Marine Corps and the State Department. How are they managing all of that? it I would imagine it would be diff difficult, but the people who are on post now only had that. They grew up knowing that. So maybe it's not that difficult. And then one of the thing I think about is when we were on post, what did we do to occupy ourselves on mids other than, you know, collateral duties and and robes and those sorts of things? We didn't have Hulu. We didn't have any streaming services. What did we do? I I went to school. I read all the websites on the State Department internet. But what what are they doing now? Are they streaming things or what's happening?
Matthew Kearse: I mean I had I had Wikipedia. I basically found the end of the internet and and had Wikipedia. But you know I can I can definitely say yeah, no, they're they're they're on YouTube, they're streaming, they're doing they're probably not supposed to be, but they are. it is what it is. It's I mean a lot of a lot of guys and gals probably have phones with, you know, data
James: Yeah it's Right.
Matthew Kearse: Overseas. I I didn't have a smartphone on MSG duty, so there was no ability to watch anything on your phone.
James: No It's funny you say that because I that never occurred to me. I think we had the Motorola Razor in one of my posts. And I remember if you dropped it, shadowed into a thousand pieces. So it wasn't a good phone to have. And and in India, didn't we have that Nokia that do do do do do do do you know that remember that phone? Yes. Yeah. So I don't remember texting being a thing. I'm I I I'm sure if we texted, but I don't remember that really being the thing. And then we didn't have email on our phones, which seems like such a foreign concept now.
Matthew Kearse: Yeah, yeah, the brick that like drug dealers use now. Yes, that was our phone. Yeah, we we come from an older time.
James: Yeah. So I I'm interested to know how all that works now. I mean I can guess, but I I mean I I want to hear it from a a Marine firsthand.
Matthew Kearse: No, I'm I'm I'm hoping you can get some maybe like a an inspecting officer, like a captain, or a former like regional commander. I've I've still been trying to find somebody who served on the the very not very known about special security detail where MSGs back in the Vietnam era were doing suit and tie bodyguard details on visiting foreign dignitaries in the US. It was a real thing.
James: Yes. So yeah, I'm I'm glad you brought that up because I didn't think of it. the who knew that MSGs served as what a role that I guess DS essentially fills now, where they're protecting dignitaries. From what I can understand learn or read about, there I only found one article, I think it's in Marine Times or Leatherneck in one of those magazines highlighting that particular group, and it was an elite group within an elite group.
Matthew Kearse: Yeah.
James: And it was only staff NCOs and they guarded foreign dignitaries who visited the United States, I believe. Well, I don't know if they went overseas. but I can't seem to find any of those, and I think I think most of them are dead. but that's an interesting mission for the MSGs. And a handful of times when things have gone bad at an embassy, I have heard MSGs guarding the ambassador. But even with that, I can't really find MSGs who've done that firsthand. Now I have talked to a few Marines who used to stand post at the ambassador's house. that doesn't seem like a far fetched concept, but I don't know in recent times if that's a thing. You would might know more from DS perspective.
Matthew Kearse: I mean, on its face, probably not, but like ad hoc circumstances, if there were to be like classified or they were running like an alternate command post, like if they're getting ready for an evacuation, like there would be circumstances like that that the operational commander, you know, the RSO on the ground could make a decision like that, especially under what's known as contingency operations. if like if you're if like if you don't have an embassy, like we're op like when I was in Libya operating out of a housing compound, we
James: Mm.
Matthew Kearse: The Marine Corps wouldn't allow MSGs to go there because there was no physical chancery for them to serve in. So like my second time there, they brought in God, it was like an infantry, a reserve infantry company, Marines out of I think New York. And they they seemed just as confused as we were to be there. This was after Benghazi and Tripoli. But I'm like, this shouldn't Marine MSGs be here? But that was that was above my pay grade. so sometimes the Marines won't even send in, like McKessage won't even send in.
James: That's Yeah.
Matthew Kearse: Marines under certain circumstances like MSGs, unless there's like an armored house for them to be in, there's, you know, certain living arrangements, there's a GSO, there's all these the ecosystem there to support them. I know MSAW has kind of bridged that gap a little bit, but they're really there to like add support. They're not necessarily there to go to like unless things have changed. I might be a little out of this myself. But things things have changed dramatically. It's it's a whole new I there's there's PFCs coming on the program now that I've heard varying varying feedback on. I mean, I understand it's a numbers game, but the feedback has not been has not been consistent.
James: Yeah, so so I did ask about that and a couple things. One, so throughout history, PFCs have been on the program and it you're probably right, it it varied on the demands of the of the MSG program what they needed and then you know what was available to them. So, you know, that was a big thing, Vietnam era. There were a lot of very junior Marines on the program and I guess it worked out just fine. This I forget what you called it, but I I heard that name before, or whatever it was. It was like some acronym. the career detachment commander talks about that situation and it's from what I understand, it's something like how security forces work. You know how like you get out of SOI and you go work at the White House, Camp David, or any other I don't know where else they work, some D C area. Apparently it's something like that, where you get out of SOI and then MSG is your your thing or whatever. Now, does that pose inherent problems? Absolutely, because then if you decide to stay in, you are returned to the fleet, not knowing anything about the fleet. And you're probably going to be a sergeant or a staff sergeant. And then that poses a lot of challenges that way. I feel like that's just something the Marine Corps has decided to deal with, absorb or whatever, just based on the needs of of the the MSG program. That's probably something that's debated way above our pay grade 'cause I still think that there are other services who would love to get their hands on the MSG program.
Matthew Kearse: That's interesting. any any closing stories before we sign off?
James: Closing stories. No. I you know, when I hear people like you tell stories about your MSG time or some of these Marines that I've talked to over the course of this podcast, I don't have anything like that, unfortunately. I have like cool stuff, meaning like, you know, doing POTUS visits, sex date, those kind of things. Those are really neat. But that I it's not really noteworthy. no, I I think that this podcast, I hope it continues in its in its current form, but I'll tell you the biggest challenge is getting people to tell their story. I have to beg them or convince them because most MSGs don't feel like their story's worth it or they don't think that they have a story worth telling. And I think you would agree with me that every MSG has a story worth telling because the story is is this duty itself is so unique. It's just a matter of finding those people and then getting them to talk to me. Everybody I have interviewed Not a single person have I denied. There are some podcasts that I had to heavily edit, and that's this is inside baseball, but that's just because sometimes people go on political rants that don't do anybody any good. I'm really all I want to hear about is your MSG story. I don't want to hear about why you support, you know, the deportation of people or, you know, things like that. Not that it's not an important issue. This just isn't the platform for that. So that's right, hope I don't plan to monetize this podcast. I don't even know how to do that, but that is a question that has come up. And the other thing is this this podcast is not a front for some other collection opportunity on MSGs. Somebody asked me that yesterday, and I was like, you're thinking this way too much about this way too much because I'm not, you know, trying to collect some whatever for prior service MSGs.
Matthew Kearse: No, it's been it's been an absolute thrill to be to listen to your podcast every week. I mean, I i there's so many bro out geez, I had no idea moments. I consider myself a history, you know, major of the Marine Corps and even MSG duty. And there's I'm hearing about posts, I'm hearing about stories, I'm hearing about people, and it's absolutely fascinating. And and more to what you just said, an MSG can serve at your same posts three years later and have a completely different experience. And People say they don't have a story to tell. Everybody's got a story to tell. Because it's such a unique thing that we did outside it's a unique within the military. It's unique within the Marine Corps. Hell, it's almost unique within the State Department. It's such a so many isolated things will happen in that one year that you're at that one random post on the far edge of the world that when you try to go back home to to Iowa to try to tell your friends about it, it's it's unfathomable. And then you get on a plane and go right back over there and you're right back in it. So it's it's funny how, you know
James: Yeah. Well, and most people don't even know what a US Embassy is. And it's it's hard to explain what a US Embassy is. You know, my I I think I've arrived at the the Canned response about how US Embassy is basically a federal building overseas. And then I have to explain what a federal building is. But I just thought of this. Do you remember our language teacher in India? he told me this and when he was our language teacher, he was probably about a hundred and fifty at that point.
Matthew Kearse: They do.
James: But he told me this story about how, you know how they we used to have Friday night parties at the house? He told me the Marines used to do casino night, where they would basically hold gambling inside the Marine House and they would make money that way. I would like Marines who've done stuff like that to come on the podcast and talk about how you were running, you know, a gambling enterprise out of the the marine house or or something like that.
Matthew Kearse: I definitely remember that language teacher 'cause I used to try to he wouldn't teach me profanity, but I had to I'd have to pick words out one by one and then I would string them together. And if he had this horrified look on his face, I know I got one right.
James: Well, I don't I remember I I remember how to count in Hindi, but do you remember what he said about penis by any chance? So, you know, he obviously spoke Hindi, spoke English, taught Hindi. He told me that he did not know that there were so many words in the English language that meant penis until he started teaching the Marines Hindi.
Matthew Kearse: No. he had been there since at least the mid seventies. So yes, he's been getting decade after decade after decade of Marines asking him how to say horrible things in the foreign language. I mean, he was probably a little located at that point.
James: Yes. But he did he had an affection for the Marines.
Matthew Kearse: Hey, we're hard not to love, right?
James: Thanks for listening to the post one podcast. If you enjoyed this episode, please leave us a review on Apple podcasts. It helps more people find the show. If you want to share your story, send us an email at james at post one podcast.com. This podcast is not endorsed by the United States department of war, the department of state or the United States Marine Corps.