Specialization

WEBVTT
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On today's episode of Possessed, we discuss the
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pull that specialization continues to have over
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us in today's world. The ancient Greek poet Archilochus
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famously wrote, The fox knows many things, but
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the hedgehog knows one big thing. So the fox
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has a deep bag of tricks. A fox can intimidate
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an enemy, scamper up a tree, attack or hide.
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The hedgehog does one thing, basically like rolls
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up in a ball, right? But it's an important thing,
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and it does it really well. So which is the dominant
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model of our time? Is it better to have a wide
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breadth of skills like a fox, or to focus on
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doing a single thing well? Increasingly, many
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of us would say it's the hedgehog. We might even
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say we're possessed by the idea that specialization
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is necessary. So since the Industrial Revolution,
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people have increasingly been attracted to the
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hedgehog's approach. In The Wealth of Nations,
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Adam Smith noted that industrialized economies
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encourage specialization. An efficient economy
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will distribute labor. Rather than one individual
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craftsman producing a good from start to finish,
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an efficient economy will mass produce goods.
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So Smith's example was of a factory producing
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pin cushions, where a single person will perform
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a single task over and over. I see the predilection
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for specialization all the time. My daughter
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is considering a career in nursing. The high
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-paying jobs, so the ones that interest her,
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are the most specialized. a nurse anesthetist
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rather than a nurse at a general practitioner's
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office. At universities, students demand increasingly
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narrow majors that would qualify them for more
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specialized jobs. So I recently overheard a prospective
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student and his parents. weighing the values
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of different schools in an elevator. And they
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were very focused on another school having a
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golf management major. This was apparently a
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big selling point. We don't have a golf management
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major. But it hasn't always been this way. During
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the Renaissance, the ideal was the Renaissance
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man, who is more of a fox. developing all of
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one's broad talents and capacities. Adam Smith
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was actually the first of many to raise the alarm
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bells about the dangers of specialization. So
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on today's episode, we explore what's changed
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since the Renaissance and wonder where the foxes
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are. Have we perhaps too enthusiastically encouraged
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the hedgehogs to breed? the producer here at
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Possessed, who usually sits here in the studio
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with us but doesn't participate but will today,
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Ella Lukowiak. Welcome, Ella. So good to have
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you here. Thank you for having me on. I'm excited.
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Well, I guess you're always here, but this time
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you're talking. So what do you think about this
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specialization thing? So what do you observe
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in your environment, college students or people?
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Friends that you know, is this a pressure that
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you see to specialize like professionally or
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otherwise? Yeah, totally. I think this is a really
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interesting conversation. When listening to you
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give the opening, I was thinking about how ever
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like starting in high school, it's this encouragement
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of having a well -rounded story with a through
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line almost. It's like you want to have all of
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these extracurriculars and organizations and
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be a part of as much as you can. make it tell
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a story that you're going in one direction. It
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shouldn't be scattered. And I think different
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media, I'm a media arts film major, so that's
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where my brain goes, of media that have explored
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this. But I even remember there being a Gilmore
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Girls episode where they talk about Rory's applying
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to college and she's so stressed about it because
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she's realizing that all of these things that
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she does... aren't enough she needs to be specialized
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and have this this story that her her resume
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and her portfolio is telling that's not just
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doing a bunch of things it has to add up to something
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more and i think that even in college now and
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i i think my major specifically i'm not looking
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to specialize in a crazy nursing degree but i
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have friends who are biochem my sister is neuroscience
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and they're as you get more selective within
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those types of programs i do think There is this
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pressure to do as much as you can to set yourself
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apart from others while also needing to spend
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all of this time focusing on the specialization.
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And you run out of time. How do you have time
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to do it all? And I think that that's a big question
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that we deal with as students. Because, yeah,
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like I said, there is this pressure to just do
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as much as possible while making it add up to
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something more than just a bunch of things you're
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doing. So it sounds like from the way you're
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talking that this is maybe like... a tendency
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you don't completely love. No, I think it's hard.
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I think it puts a lot of, there's already a lot
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of pressure to succeed in your lane. And I think
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that when you're trying to weave in a bunch of
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different lanes to make your lane stand out more,
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it's just, there's a lot going on and a lot that
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you have to balance. And I think there's something
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really beautiful about being able to have a lot
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of different. I think that that's something that
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people should embrace. But I do think that the
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pressure to do that in order to like as a sole
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purpose to stand out in your specialty isn't
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always a great moment for it, if that makes sense.
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Absolutely. I mean, I just want to highlight
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what you just said, Ella, like a story with a
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through line. So it sounds like there is a little
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pressure to at least look like you can also be
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a fox. You know, to have your extracurricular,
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right? What is it? You should be a well -rounded
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student, right? But the pressure to have a through
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line to also be a hedgehog with a plan, right?
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I know people ask you, what are you planning
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on for your major when you're like a junior or
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senior in high school? And there's just this
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expectation, right? To know. To know who you're
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going to be. To know. One thing I hear from my
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students, and I've been talking to them directly
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about it this semester, I'm teaching an honors
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college class, is that the pressure is not so
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much the major and the coursework. It's all of
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the extracurriculars. It's the job. It's the
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volunteer work. It's being president of one sorority
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or fraternity. And all of these things my students
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do, they tell me. partly because they love those
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things and also to differentiate themselves and
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have a story about how they're not just a biochem
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major, but also the president of their sorority
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and like the captain of the intramural field
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hockey team. And it seems to me as an educator
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that that pressure to be well -rounded is paradoxically
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making students less, it's making them flourish
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less in their lives. And I just wonder, like
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from your perspective, do you see that? dynamic
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at work? I think for sure. I'm thinking also
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back to the high school times and you said like
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junior or senior year thinking about your major.
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I remember conversations fresh out of eighth
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grade you're heading to your new high school
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and they're especially I went to I guess this
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is interesting a more specialized high school.
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I went to communications high school so it was
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specialized more already just from the get -go
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and going into I think around sophomore year
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you're 15, 16 years old, you were picking your
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track within the school. So basically major,
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choosing a major for yourself. And these are
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courses that are going to go on your resume to
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college counselors. So your artery building the
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blocks of a story and piecing it together. And
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I think even the conversations about being a
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biochem major and being the captain of your team,
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when I'm thinking about that, I'm already thinking,
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okay, how can you take these skills and make
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them work together and make them seem like they
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are in conversation with each other. And I think
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it does take the passion out of it a little bit
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if you're always weighing it against how other
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people are going to perceive you. And I think
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just in our generation in general, the conversation
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of perception is always at the forefront. And
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I think that this weighs well in with that. So
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I'm trying to delineate the different concerns
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I'm hearing about specialization. So one is that
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it can lead to putting too much pressure on young
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people. That's great. I mean, that's like a really
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important thing to acknowledge. But are there
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any other problems with beings, you know, with
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emphasizing specialization? Like maybe like if
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my interests aren't narrow, but people are forcing
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me to specialize, it could be like contrary to
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what I want to do. Like I want to do lots of
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things, not just one thing. But what about the
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person who actually has? narrow interests. And
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they do exist. I see them with our grad students
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all the time. They have very narrow interests,
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and they're not bothered by pressure. So then
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they're set up, they go off, they specialized.
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I don't know. Is there any problem with that?
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Or is it just the problems of pressuring people?
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I mean, my sense is that the difficulty here
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is that you have to have a... like a diverse
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ecosystem where we've got a good number of hedgehogs
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around and we've got a good number of foxes around
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and because foxes are so continuously devalued
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there's less and less incentive to be you should
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you should look like you can kind of put on a
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fox hat if you need to but really the expectation
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is like what are you what what specific um thing
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are you going to dig deep down into you know
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well can i can i can i Just push you a little
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bit. But what if the hedgehogs are diverse? So
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like, what if one hedgehog like rolls up in a
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ball and another one climbs a tree? Like, what
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if all of the hedgehogs are doing different things
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and you have the diversity? No, but then, so
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this is precisely the issue. I think that the
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diversity can't just come from the hedgehogs
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knowing deeply a number of different things.
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You need to have, so I've been thinking a lot
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in the last week or so about, and this is, you
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know. A lot of people are talking about this
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these days, but Robert Putnam's stuff on bowling
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alone that is now, what, like 30 years old? I
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think older. Maybe older, okay. Oh my gosh, it's
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2026, isn't it? Yeah, and the role of... what
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he calls bridging capital in the social capital
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world, right? You need people to be able to kind
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of translate so that the hedgehogs can, like,
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if they all just burrow in their own little holes,
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then you don't have anything that's remarkably
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resembling a society, right? So you need some
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foxes to make some connections so that when there
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are possibilities for mutual, for... for learning
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that could come from another discipline or another
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area of specialty, um, that, that that's facilitated.
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Otherwise you're like, I mean, ironically you,
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you could get so deep, you know, if you don't
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have like managers in the pinpoint factory or
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in the, in the pin factory, the pin cushion factory
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that, um, like people get so deep that they can't
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at all understand how the bigger picture works.
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Right. You need some foxes. Yeah. So like a hedgehog
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system, It could look like a big factory, right?
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Where everyone's just doing their own specialized
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job. But that factory system, when it's working
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great, it's great. But it's a brittle, fragile
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system. You know, what happens when all of the
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people who are, I don't know, sewing the one
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part for the pincushion are all sick that day?
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And nobody knows how to fill in. And suddenly,
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like the whole factory depends upon this one
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person doing this one job and nobody else can
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fix. And so it's like the system doesn't, can't
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adapt. Well, and I think it's even deeper than
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that. It's like, okay, so one of the images that's
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also come to mind as I've been thinking about
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this conversation is Emile Durkheim, a sociologist.
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So I'm bringing in a second sociologist. I hope
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that's okay. Maybe we should have brought another
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sociologist in to talk about this stuff. Durkheim
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offers this story about human social history.
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And he says that in pre -modern times, and ironically,
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it's a little bit weird, the pre -modern times
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are mechanistic and the modern times are organic,
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which you would maybe imagine at first glance
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that they would be the other way around, right?
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But actually, for Durkheim, he describes it in
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this other way around, where in pre -modern times...
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Basically, you got a lot of foxes, and so everyone's
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kind of interchangeable. So if Matt kills over
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and dies someday, we just get another Andrew,
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and every person is just... Andrew is waiting
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in the wings for Matt to die. He's all prepped
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out. Precisely. If you get into an organic kind
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of arrangement, where Matt is... for an example
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of an organism, right, the human body, if Matt
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is a heart cell and Andrew is a lung cell, well
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then you're not really mutually replaceable.
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And so there's no... Without some kind of connective
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tissue, you can't replace one another. Okay,
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this works out really well for the reasons that
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Adam Smith made clear to us, right? It can make
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things a little bit more efficient. But also,
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it can increase our failure, not just to be able
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to replace one another, but also to, like...
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care about one another right because we become
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less and less legible you don't know how to say
00:14:13.950 --> 00:14:17.029
oh is andrew a person worth caring about or worth
00:14:17.029 --> 00:14:19.590
appreciating because he's one of those i can't
00:14:19.590 --> 00:14:21.830
remember your lung cell right he's one of those
00:14:21.830 --> 00:14:23.730
lowly lung cells and i'm a heart cell and i just
00:14:23.730 --> 00:14:25.450
don't even understand those people over there
00:14:25.450 --> 00:14:27.549
and so i think this is another thing it's not
00:14:27.549 --> 00:14:30.149
just replacement in the pincushion factory it's
00:14:30.149 --> 00:14:33.250
also like an appreciation for we're all going
00:14:33.250 --> 00:14:35.309
through this together but if you're a heart cell
00:14:35.309 --> 00:14:36.470
and you're surrounded by heart cells then you
00:14:36.470 --> 00:14:38.480
think you're gonna like compare yourself to other
00:14:38.480 --> 00:14:39.940
heart cells and you're just going to say, how
00:14:39.940 --> 00:14:41.639
can I make myself the best looking heart cell?
00:14:41.720 --> 00:14:45.059
And also the like, gosh, I just think about all
00:14:45.059 --> 00:14:47.200
of these people I know who work in universities
00:14:47.200 --> 00:14:50.759
to do this very high level research and nobody
00:14:50.759 --> 00:14:55.000
can understand it. And sometimes what they're
00:14:55.000 --> 00:14:58.000
doing is really, really valuable. Sometimes they're
00:14:58.000 --> 00:15:00.899
over there doing nutritional studies that if
00:15:00.899 --> 00:15:02.860
people really understood what this meant, it
00:15:02.860 --> 00:15:05.779
could have real ramifications. It would be really
00:15:05.779 --> 00:15:08.440
valuable. But nobody knows how to talk to them.
00:15:08.480 --> 00:15:10.139
And they don't know how to talk to anyone else
00:15:10.139 --> 00:15:11.980
because they live in their own little specialized
00:15:11.980 --> 00:15:14.820
bubble. And that brings me to the Renaissance,
00:15:15.100 --> 00:15:18.940
Matt, if I may, where arguably this concept of
00:15:18.940 --> 00:15:23.639
the fox has its first. notable emergence in the
00:15:23.639 --> 00:15:25.200
idea of the Renaissance man. The Renaissance
00:15:25.200 --> 00:15:27.419
man, I'll just briefly say, is an expression
00:15:27.419 --> 00:15:30.720
coined in the 19th century by the Swiss historian
00:15:30.720 --> 00:15:33.379
and thinker Jacob Borchardt when he was describing
00:15:33.379 --> 00:15:36.200
Leon Battista Alberti, a 15th century Italian
00:15:36.200 --> 00:15:40.000
humanist and architect who, Alberti I mean, at
00:15:40.000 --> 00:15:43.340
age 10 in school wrote a Latin play, an original
00:15:43.340 --> 00:15:47.139
composition that was so good. His teacher assumed
00:15:47.139 --> 00:15:50.320
it was a lost Roman classic from antiquity and
00:15:50.320 --> 00:15:52.480
that Alberti had found it in like a monastery
00:15:52.480 --> 00:15:55.639
or in some library and brought it. He turned
00:15:55.639 --> 00:15:57.960
it in as his own work, like Chachi P .T. in the
00:15:57.960 --> 00:16:02.820
15th century. So Alberti, one of the first Renaissance
00:16:02.820 --> 00:16:06.059
men. And when you're talking about the sort of
00:16:06.059 --> 00:16:09.879
interchangeability, Mary, of specialists or heart
00:16:09.879 --> 00:16:12.720
cells, as you put it. My brain goes not so much
00:16:12.720 --> 00:16:15.360
to Alberti's world, but in the same period, the
00:16:15.360 --> 00:16:17.860
world of Castiglione in his book of the courtier,
00:16:18.000 --> 00:16:20.740
which is another one of those key Renaissance
00:16:20.740 --> 00:16:24.220
moments for the celebration of the fox, of the
00:16:24.220 --> 00:16:26.960
man or person. There are women in that book of
00:16:26.960 --> 00:16:30.480
diverse abilities. And it's very important for
00:16:30.480 --> 00:16:33.450
us to remember that. His whole doctrine of the
00:16:33.450 --> 00:16:35.629
importance of a courtier being good at music,
00:16:35.789 --> 00:16:38.149
being good at dance, being good at martial arts
00:16:38.149 --> 00:16:40.990
and being very well spoken and rhetorically savvy
00:16:40.990 --> 00:16:44.549
comes out of a very specific sociopolitical context.
00:16:44.610 --> 00:16:46.549
That's a court where I think we should remember
00:16:46.549 --> 00:16:49.409
two things. One, everyone is trying to serve
00:16:49.409 --> 00:16:51.950
and glorify the political interests of one family.
00:16:52.960 --> 00:16:55.100
And two, everyone knows each other. So there's
00:16:55.100 --> 00:16:58.220
no place for anonymity and atomization. Like
00:16:58.220 --> 00:16:59.700
Matt, when you were talking about high -level
00:16:59.700 --> 00:17:02.539
researchers in whatever field who can't speak
00:17:02.539 --> 00:17:05.640
about their research more broadly. That might
00:17:05.640 --> 00:17:08.400
be because they're in their own little silo in
00:17:08.400 --> 00:17:10.700
their own department or even in their own research
00:17:10.700 --> 00:17:12.940
group in their own department. Whereas the more
00:17:12.940 --> 00:17:15.039
it seems to me we have to interact with people
00:17:15.039 --> 00:17:17.279
with different skills and different orientations,
00:17:17.279 --> 00:17:20.180
the more encouraged we are to actually cultivate
00:17:20.180 --> 00:17:22.880
diverse interests. And this makes me look at
00:17:22.880 --> 00:17:25.859
and think of you, Ella, as a student. Arguably,
00:17:25.859 --> 00:17:28.240
you might have a more diverse range of experiences
00:17:28.240 --> 00:17:31.579
and social contacts. I wonder how this sits with
00:17:31.579 --> 00:17:35.109
you specifically. Is being a college student
00:17:35.109 --> 00:17:37.670
closer to life in a Renaissance court, as I've
00:17:37.670 --> 00:17:40.710
just described it? Or is it closer to life in
00:17:40.710 --> 00:17:44.329
an industrial or post -industrial society? That
00:17:44.329 --> 00:17:47.009
is a fantastic question. I appreciate this. I
00:17:47.009 --> 00:17:49.289
was in Florence last spring studying abroad.
00:17:49.369 --> 00:17:56.640
So this is really perfect. I think for me. I'll
00:17:56.640 --> 00:17:59.400
talk from my own perspective in I'm a media arts
00:17:59.400 --> 00:18:01.859
major within a small program where I feel as
00:18:01.859 --> 00:18:04.579
if most of the people that I hang out with and
00:18:04.579 --> 00:18:07.599
I surround myself with are not in my field at
00:18:07.599 --> 00:18:10.079
all. My closest friends are business majors,
00:18:10.319 --> 00:18:14.119
law students, biology majors. And I have learned
00:18:14.119 --> 00:18:17.839
so much about so many fields that I never would
00:18:17.839 --> 00:18:20.900
have without being around those types of people.
00:18:20.960 --> 00:18:23.519
And if I had gone. I think specifically at a
00:18:23.519 --> 00:18:27.460
university like ours here, where it's not a conservatory
00:18:27.460 --> 00:18:30.539
program that I'm in. It is a program that I am
00:18:30.539 --> 00:18:32.200
also a computer science minor. So I'm taking
00:18:32.200 --> 00:18:35.079
courses that do stretch across disciplines. And
00:18:35.079 --> 00:18:37.119
we were discussing this before, but I did my
00:18:37.119 --> 00:18:40.380
honors thesis about meteorology and space -time,
00:18:40.480 --> 00:18:43.059
but within a creative context. So I think that
00:18:43.059 --> 00:18:47.500
that's only been possible because of experiencing
00:18:47.500 --> 00:18:50.619
this Renaissance environment. And I think that...
00:18:51.769 --> 00:18:54.049
While there is definitely specialization within
00:18:54.049 --> 00:18:57.950
the department that I'm in, and I obviously am
00:18:57.950 --> 00:19:01.089
mostly enrolled in creative courses, the ability
00:19:01.089 --> 00:19:03.349
to be surrounded by people who aren't just in
00:19:03.349 --> 00:19:05.869
that field is really beneficial. Well, I just
00:19:05.869 --> 00:19:08.430
want to, at some point, turn that question back
00:19:08.430 --> 00:19:11.109
on Andrew, who always likes to be the question
00:19:11.109 --> 00:19:16.970
asker. Because you are kind of a Renaissance
00:19:16.970 --> 00:19:20.190
man. I am in awe of your Renaissance man qualities.
00:19:21.210 --> 00:19:23.069
In addition to being a history professor and
00:19:23.069 --> 00:19:26.990
history PhD, you speak like a bazillion languages.
00:19:27.150 --> 00:19:29.170
I don't know how many. You speak a lot of languages.
00:19:29.289 --> 00:19:33.130
And then recently, you became a playwright. I
00:19:33.130 --> 00:19:36.410
saw your play. Orpheus was amazing. So you do
00:19:36.410 --> 00:19:39.630
all of these different things. I thought maybe
00:19:39.630 --> 00:19:41.670
you could help me articulate in the way that
00:19:41.670 --> 00:19:44.970
Ella was what the value of being a Renaissance
00:19:44.970 --> 00:19:48.329
man is and whether it has a value outside the
00:19:48.329 --> 00:19:51.509
context of a court. Andrew, are you a man without
00:19:51.509 --> 00:19:54.509
a court? Are you looking for a court for all
00:19:54.509 --> 00:19:56.430
of this energy? Or do you feel like this fits
00:19:56.430 --> 00:20:00.619
with the world that we have? Yes, both. I am
00:20:00.619 --> 00:20:02.940
looking for a court. And like I'm looking back
00:20:02.940 --> 00:20:04.980
at Ella here, I was really happy to hear you
00:20:04.980 --> 00:20:07.119
say that about the university and its diverse
00:20:07.119 --> 00:20:08.960
set of interests and characters that you interact
00:20:08.960 --> 00:20:12.630
with. The university in a way is my court. props
00:20:12.630 --> 00:20:14.630
to the McCausland College of Arts and Sciences
00:20:14.630 --> 00:20:17.390
and the university for giving me a collegial
00:20:17.390 --> 00:20:20.670
and supportive home where I can not only co -write,
00:20:20.789 --> 00:20:25.130
but also co -direct and play music in an original.
00:20:25.150 --> 00:20:29.380
Yeah, I forgot the music part. Performance. I'm
00:20:29.380 --> 00:20:33.259
aware of my luck and arguably privilege in having
00:20:33.259 --> 00:20:35.700
those opportunities because friends from college,
00:20:35.720 --> 00:20:39.380
most of them have become hedgehogs and they don't
00:20:39.380 --> 00:20:43.460
have the space to explore a variety of interests.
00:20:43.559 --> 00:20:45.359
And I think being in a university is a wonderful
00:20:45.359 --> 00:20:48.079
way to do this. Like if I were a lawyer, no offense
00:20:48.079 --> 00:20:50.599
to the legal profession, I wouldn't have the
00:20:50.599 --> 00:20:53.240
time or the social networks or the institutional
00:20:53.240 --> 00:20:55.920
support to do something like writing a play.
00:20:56.700 --> 00:20:58.359
That's answer number one. Answer number two,
00:20:58.440 --> 00:20:59.680
Matt, because I know that's probably not entirely
00:20:59.680 --> 00:21:02.660
satisfying to you. I was recently reading...
00:21:03.160 --> 00:21:07.200
A Greek oration by a early 16th century Italian
00:21:07.200 --> 00:21:09.880
humanist named Petro Bembo. It's called the Oratio
00:21:09.880 --> 00:21:12.819
Pro Literis Graecus, an oration in support of
00:21:12.819 --> 00:21:15.420
Greek letters. And it's not quite that nerdy.
00:21:15.420 --> 00:21:17.220
Like, yes, of course, he loves Greek and is talking
00:21:17.220 --> 00:21:19.059
about how important it is for Venetians in the
00:21:19.059 --> 00:21:22.880
wake of the sack of Constantinople to support
00:21:22.880 --> 00:21:26.500
Greek studies and to endow chairs for Byzantine
00:21:26.500 --> 00:21:29.359
emigres who have lost their home after the Turkish
00:21:29.359 --> 00:21:32.799
conquest in the middle of 15th century. And Bembo
00:21:32.799 --> 00:21:35.900
talks in that oration about how important it
00:21:35.900 --> 00:21:39.500
is for any republic to have well -rounded people
00:21:39.500 --> 00:21:42.119
who are experts in many fields. And I happen
00:21:42.119 --> 00:21:45.119
to bring in a quick note here about how important
00:21:45.119 --> 00:21:48.099
it is to have such people because without them,
00:21:48.240 --> 00:21:54.720
Bembo says, everything is fruitless, disharmonious.
00:21:55.259 --> 00:21:57.200
and lacking grace. And we could talk about all
00:21:57.200 --> 00:21:59.279
three of those words. We're in the presence of
00:21:59.279 --> 00:22:01.140
a Presbyterian minister who might have something
00:22:01.140 --> 00:22:03.559
to say about lacking grace. But what I want to
00:22:03.559 --> 00:22:06.299
drill into really briefly is that word disharmonious,
00:22:06.319 --> 00:22:09.619
anarmosta. I forget, there's an English translation
00:22:09.619 --> 00:22:11.559
of this oration that translates that word differently
00:22:11.559 --> 00:22:14.200
and rather badly, but I'm going to say disharmonious
00:22:14.200 --> 00:22:18.099
because harmonain in Greek means, of course,
00:22:18.099 --> 00:22:21.460
to be in balance. musically. And it also has
00:22:21.460 --> 00:22:24.839
an earlier stratum linguistically of the boards
00:22:24.839 --> 00:22:27.740
on a ship fitting together. So I think that Bembo,
00:22:27.779 --> 00:22:30.039
I know that Bembo knows that. And in using that
00:22:30.039 --> 00:22:32.960
word, he's suggesting it's not just a decorous,
00:22:32.980 --> 00:22:36.420
aesthetically pleasing thing to have polymaths
00:22:36.420 --> 00:22:39.519
in a society. It's actually vital to the functioning
00:22:39.519 --> 00:22:42.970
of the state. And he goes on to contrast republics
00:22:42.970 --> 00:22:47.890
that need polymaths to tyrannies that resemble
00:22:47.890 --> 00:22:51.849
the nature of the tyrant. And they don't need
00:22:51.849 --> 00:22:54.490
polymaths. It's all about that individual. And
00:22:54.490 --> 00:22:59.210
it's a worship of that person. Whoa. Deep. OK,
00:22:59.289 --> 00:23:02.170
so listen. So one thing that I'm hearing from
00:23:02.170 --> 00:23:06.839
both Ella and Andrew is that. kind of prompt
00:23:06.839 --> 00:23:09.940
to make your own court, right? Now, of course,
00:23:09.960 --> 00:23:13.319
there are things about one's environment that
00:23:13.319 --> 00:23:16.559
might make it more or less possible, but it's
00:23:16.559 --> 00:23:19.460
also important, it sounds like, from what you
00:23:19.460 --> 00:23:22.779
guys have both named, to just take advantage
00:23:22.779 --> 00:23:28.769
of the spaces that are available to... to pursue
00:23:28.769 --> 00:23:33.289
the polymathy or the hobbies, whatever it is,
00:23:33.410 --> 00:23:36.789
that might make any of us well -rounded. What
00:23:36.789 --> 00:23:39.569
I was going to ask earlier is I'm just thinking
00:23:39.569 --> 00:23:42.789
about my students, and that's because that's
00:23:42.789 --> 00:23:47.269
my daily experience. I teach mostly this gen
00:23:47.269 --> 00:23:49.470
ed course that everyone wants to take because
00:23:49.470 --> 00:23:52.710
it's Carolina Court. Two different Carolinian
00:23:52.710 --> 00:23:54.410
core requirements that you can stack. And so
00:23:54.410 --> 00:23:56.829
I have students in my class that are going to
00:23:56.829 --> 00:24:00.309
go into electrical engineering and cut hair and
00:24:00.309 --> 00:24:03.289
any number of different things. And I think a
00:24:03.289 --> 00:24:05.589
lot of them say, why do I have to take a philosophy
00:24:05.589 --> 00:24:08.970
class? It kind of reminds me of when I was in
00:24:08.970 --> 00:24:11.130
high school and took calculus and I heard people
00:24:11.130 --> 00:24:13.589
saying, why do I have to take calculus? I'm never
00:24:13.589 --> 00:24:17.809
going to use this, right? So I think some of
00:24:17.809 --> 00:24:21.160
the pressure to be a hedgehog has... been instilled
00:24:21.160 --> 00:24:24.140
in individuals such that you don't want to do
00:24:24.140 --> 00:24:25.859
something you don't have to do for some kind
00:24:25.859 --> 00:24:29.119
of professional or future gain so i wonder if
00:24:29.119 --> 00:24:30.880
there might be i mean given what you've just
00:24:30.880 --> 00:24:35.019
told us andrew um might be ways that we can articulate
00:24:35.019 --> 00:24:40.900
the value of the fox for our political world,
00:24:41.039 --> 00:24:44.059
our social world, in ways that are translatable
00:24:44.059 --> 00:24:46.500
to the electrical engineer who really doesn't
00:24:46.500 --> 00:24:49.140
want to hear anything more about deontology or
00:24:49.140 --> 00:24:52.380
whatever. I don't know. What do you guys say?
00:24:52.640 --> 00:24:55.819
In moments when you have tried to reach out to
00:24:55.819 --> 00:25:01.019
students in that way or articulate to supervisors
00:25:01.019 --> 00:25:04.900
the value of the... The courses that, I mean,
00:25:04.900 --> 00:25:06.920
you know, when we say gen ed, I think that sounds,
00:25:07.059 --> 00:25:09.259
you can hear it. It's like, oh, the chore, you
00:25:09.259 --> 00:25:12.119
know, the gen ed class. But presumably they're
00:25:12.119 --> 00:25:15.539
instilled or they're instituted for the benefit
00:25:15.539 --> 00:25:17.579
of a liberal arts education. And so what's the
00:25:17.579 --> 00:25:20.000
best, I don't know, maybe because republics need
00:25:20.000 --> 00:25:22.420
foxes, but what's the best way to articulate
00:25:22.420 --> 00:25:25.140
that to your average 19 year old? There's two
00:25:25.140 --> 00:25:27.039
kinds of, I just want to distinguish two kinds
00:25:27.039 --> 00:25:29.420
of answers. One answer is kind of this personal
00:25:29.420 --> 00:25:34.869
question. Of like, I'm planning my life. Should
00:25:34.869 --> 00:25:39.650
I cultivate? Andrew turns out, mandolin? He's
00:25:39.650 --> 00:25:42.170
an amazing mandolin player in addition to all
00:25:42.170 --> 00:25:43.910
of those other things and played mandolin on
00:25:43.910 --> 00:25:48.609
the show. It was fabulous. So should I have time
00:25:48.609 --> 00:25:51.549
to? learn how to play an instrument? Should I
00:25:51.549 --> 00:25:54.150
have time to learn another language? So there's
00:25:54.150 --> 00:25:56.130
this kind of personal question, like how does
00:25:56.130 --> 00:25:57.950
this contribute to my happiness or what I want
00:25:57.950 --> 00:25:59.730
to get out of my own life? And then there's the
00:25:59.730 --> 00:26:03.170
societal question of like, we as a society, do
00:26:03.170 --> 00:26:06.829
we need polymaths or not? And that's where we
00:26:06.829 --> 00:26:09.529
start to get this worry that republics need the...
00:26:10.950 --> 00:26:13.049
polymaths in order to avoid becoming too much
00:26:13.049 --> 00:26:16.430
of a tyranny. When it comes to, I don't know,
00:26:16.490 --> 00:26:18.230
mostly I just want to just distinguish those
00:26:18.230 --> 00:26:21.130
two kinds of answers. I could try my hand at
00:26:21.130 --> 00:26:24.390
both. On the personal side, Mary, to answer you
00:26:24.390 --> 00:26:28.210
more directly, the way I justify this to students
00:26:28.210 --> 00:26:31.009
who might be engineering majors or want to become
00:26:31.009 --> 00:26:33.869
estheticians is to try to find a way to teach
00:26:33.869 --> 00:26:35.549
the material that I'm teaching in a way that's
00:26:35.549 --> 00:26:38.680
personally relevant. to them. So I'm teaching
00:26:38.680 --> 00:26:41.000
an honors college class this semester, and I
00:26:41.000 --> 00:26:42.839
have not a single humanities or social science
00:26:42.839 --> 00:26:46.559
major in the entire class. And my course sits
00:26:46.559 --> 00:26:48.420
somewhere in no man's land between history and
00:26:48.420 --> 00:26:51.920
philosophy. And I try every class session to
00:26:51.920 --> 00:26:54.799
draw out of my students some insight or observation
00:26:54.799 --> 00:26:58.579
about how this material is relevant. This week,
00:26:58.579 --> 00:27:00.759
for example, we were studying the Haudenosaunee
00:27:00.759 --> 00:27:03.000
Thanksgiving Address. And the Haudenosaunee are
00:27:03.000 --> 00:27:06.299
an indigenous group of indigenous tribes in what
00:27:06.299 --> 00:27:09.660
is today Ontario, New York State, and a bit in
00:27:09.660 --> 00:27:12.839
the Ohio River Valley. And students were very
00:27:12.839 --> 00:27:16.500
struck by the what Robin Wall Kimmerer calls
00:27:16.500 --> 00:27:18.500
the grammar of intimacy. I don't know if you
00:27:18.500 --> 00:27:20.619
guys know Braiding Sweetgrass by Robin Wall Kimmerer.
00:27:20.759 --> 00:27:23.339
It's about her own attempt to learn Potawatomi,
00:27:23.440 --> 00:27:25.980
her ancestral language, and how, for example,
00:27:25.980 --> 00:27:28.839
in that tongue, there is a different verb for
00:27:28.839 --> 00:27:31.720
to hear when you're talking about hearing someone's
00:27:31.720 --> 00:27:34.519
voice versus hearing an airplane. Like in English,
00:27:34.539 --> 00:27:36.400
we say, I hear the airplane, I hear Ella's voice.
00:27:36.579 --> 00:27:38.380
But in Potawatomi, those are different verbs.
00:27:38.579 --> 00:27:40.700
And my students were fascinated about what kind
00:27:40.700 --> 00:27:45.130
of stance toward the... animate world that embodies
00:27:45.130 --> 00:27:48.089
and what kind of distance from the human made
00:27:48.089 --> 00:27:50.470
world that actually embodies. So for someone
00:27:50.470 --> 00:27:52.190
who's going to become an engineer, for example,
00:27:52.410 --> 00:27:54.970
and this happened the other day in class, I got
00:27:54.970 --> 00:27:57.269
a comment about how it's going to make him think
00:27:57.269 --> 00:27:59.910
differently about interactions with coworkers
00:27:59.910 --> 00:28:03.630
and supervisors and subordinates versus the actual
00:28:03.630 --> 00:28:05.710
things that he's creating as a civil engineer.
00:28:06.029 --> 00:28:09.009
So I smiled as I see several of you are now when
00:28:09.009 --> 00:28:12.970
he had that insight structurally, Matt. Bembo
00:28:12.970 --> 00:28:17.150
goes on to say about tyrants and the fact that
00:28:17.150 --> 00:28:19.910
their states resemble them versus republics and
00:28:19.910 --> 00:28:22.609
the fact that the states need polymaths in them
00:28:22.609 --> 00:28:25.589
to say that republics are run by laws. And in
00:28:25.589 --> 00:28:27.410
our country, you have Democratic and Republican.
00:28:28.170 --> 00:28:30.210
leaders who say this, that we are a nation of
00:28:30.210 --> 00:28:32.369
laws, or at least you did until recently, have
00:28:32.369 --> 00:28:34.769
high level politicians who would say that. And
00:28:34.769 --> 00:28:36.650
I think that what Bembo's getting at is that
00:28:36.650 --> 00:28:40.230
to have good laws, you need wise people writing
00:28:40.230 --> 00:28:42.589
them and implementing them. And you can't be
00:28:42.589 --> 00:28:45.109
wise, according to Bembo, if you're hyper specialized.
00:28:45.670 --> 00:28:47.990
So I don't know if that's a satisfactory answer,
00:28:48.089 --> 00:28:49.950
Matt, but it's fresh in my mind. And at least
00:28:49.950 --> 00:28:52.670
it's a connection between a diversity of interests
00:28:52.670 --> 00:28:56.329
and knowledges and how a state functions efficiently.
00:28:57.450 --> 00:29:00.410
OK, but so this I just want to add pressure to
00:29:00.410 --> 00:29:04.869
this whole discussion, because while I appreciate
00:29:04.869 --> 00:29:09.150
the idea that maybe we have to make our own courts
00:29:09.150 --> 00:29:13.130
and and figure out how to personally appreciate
00:29:13.130 --> 00:29:18.130
the value of something that is not work, right,
00:29:18.210 --> 00:29:21.150
is not just our profession. There's also like
00:29:21.150 --> 00:29:23.410
a great deal of privilege in that opportunity.
00:29:23.529 --> 00:29:27.769
Right. And so this is already. challenging, right?
00:29:27.849 --> 00:29:30.529
I would imagine that some of the most interdisciplinary
00:29:30.529 --> 00:29:32.910
work you see is at the Honors College in the
00:29:32.910 --> 00:29:39.670
first place. But then socially, right? One of
00:29:39.670 --> 00:29:43.400
the images that comes to mind is Walt Whitman
00:29:43.400 --> 00:29:46.000
talks about that and a democracy, I mean, along
00:29:46.000 --> 00:29:48.799
the lines of Pembo, that a democracy's need for
00:29:48.799 --> 00:29:52.900
what he calls literatuses. And he resists the,
00:29:52.920 --> 00:29:56.500
you know, the literati, like that word as a whole
00:29:56.500 --> 00:30:00.759
class of, you know, people who are more well
00:30:00.759 --> 00:30:04.420
-read and more educated kind of running the country.
00:30:04.500 --> 00:30:07.960
He wants, he, in describing this in Democratic
00:30:07.960 --> 00:30:13.579
Vistas, he describes this as our need for individuals
00:30:13.579 --> 00:30:17.700
who are eager to be foxes and to do translating
00:30:17.700 --> 00:30:23.380
with hedgehogs of all sorts. And nevertheless,
00:30:23.559 --> 00:30:26.460
you could still imagine literatuses becoming
00:30:26.460 --> 00:30:32.980
literati, becoming a class unto themselves. I
00:30:32.980 --> 00:30:34.539
think that's something that we see now, where
00:30:34.539 --> 00:30:37.000
the people who are the most likely to be well
00:30:37.000 --> 00:30:40.259
-rounded or to have hobbies are people who can
00:30:40.920 --> 00:30:43.779
for example, pay someone to clean their house,
00:30:43.960 --> 00:30:47.000
right? And so one of the worries that I have
00:30:47.000 --> 00:30:50.440
is, I mean, frankly, I just, I share this fear
00:30:50.440 --> 00:30:55.400
that we overvalue specialization and specialized
00:30:55.400 --> 00:31:00.900
labor, but then what, and the consequences of
00:31:00.900 --> 00:31:05.230
that, that then it may become that. being able
00:31:05.230 --> 00:31:08.730
to have a hobby or to spend time doing something
00:31:08.730 --> 00:31:11.190
that is not at all related to your work is really
00:31:11.190 --> 00:31:14.829
just the prerogative of those who are wealthy
00:31:14.829 --> 00:31:17.710
enough to be able to do so. So how do we socially
00:31:17.710 --> 00:31:22.730
make that case, even for... folks for whom that
00:31:22.730 --> 00:31:24.890
seems like that's just out of reach. I think
00:31:24.890 --> 00:31:26.549
it's a wonderful prompt, Marion. I'm glad you
00:31:26.549 --> 00:31:29.109
brought us to politics. I want to return for
00:31:29.109 --> 00:31:32.809
a second to the university and push back gently
00:31:32.809 --> 00:31:34.789
against this idea that the Honors College kids
00:31:34.789 --> 00:31:37.390
are the ones who are most creative and most interdisciplinary.
00:31:37.869 --> 00:31:41.170
For example, in Orpheus, which Matt mentioned
00:31:41.170 --> 00:31:43.690
and very kindly praised, the play that I helped
00:31:43.690 --> 00:31:46.910
write and put on, I was really amazed at the
00:31:46.910 --> 00:31:50.210
dancers and the actors and how many things they
00:31:50.210 --> 00:31:53.299
do and how effortlessly they seem to do them.
00:31:53.460 --> 00:31:56.200
So that's effortless is a term that reminds me
00:31:56.200 --> 00:31:58.319
of Castiglione's The Book of the Courtier. And
00:31:58.319 --> 00:32:00.880
he has this famous coinage of sprezzatura, an
00:32:00.880 --> 00:32:03.119
Italian word that didn't exist before the early
00:32:03.119 --> 00:32:05.000
16th century. And it means something like effortless
00:32:05.000 --> 00:32:07.619
mastery. And that's what he wants the courtier
00:32:07.619 --> 00:32:09.559
to be really good at. Like you can talk philosophy,
00:32:09.799 --> 00:32:12.779
you can dance, you can fight on horseback, and
00:32:12.779 --> 00:32:14.640
like no one sees the effort that goes into it.
00:32:15.879 --> 00:32:18.000
Before one of the performances of Orpheus, I
00:32:18.000 --> 00:32:19.720
was talking to a dancer. She was warming up,
00:32:19.779 --> 00:32:21.220
and I was just checking in with her. How are
00:32:21.220 --> 00:32:23.480
you doing? And she just casually mentioned that
00:32:23.480 --> 00:32:27.279
she had this huge OCHEM mid -semester exam at
00:32:27.279 --> 00:32:30.900
8 .30 that morning. And here we are at 6 .30
00:32:30.900 --> 00:32:33.160
p .m. She's getting ready to dance her ass off
00:32:33.160 --> 00:32:35.759
at 7. And she's not complaining at all. She was
00:32:35.759 --> 00:32:38.480
up late the night before studying. I'm sure she
00:32:38.480 --> 00:32:40.859
did really well in her OCHEM midterm. And then
00:32:40.859 --> 00:32:43.799
she's dancing in the show at 7 p .m. Another
00:32:43.799 --> 00:32:46.849
young woman is in ROTC and the morning of one
00:32:46.849 --> 00:32:49.430
of the performances had to do a seven mile rock
00:32:49.430 --> 00:32:52.450
with 70 pounds on her back and she's not a large
00:32:52.450 --> 00:32:55.950
person and like then at night she's dancing in
00:32:55.950 --> 00:32:58.509
a very demanding way and so those are just two
00:32:58.509 --> 00:33:01.670
quick anecdotes nameless to say Mary that like
00:33:01.670 --> 00:33:04.170
I think there's a really precious thing about
00:33:04.170 --> 00:33:07.650
the university as court where the kids aren't
00:33:07.650 --> 00:33:11.940
serving a duke or duchess or political leader
00:33:11.940 --> 00:33:14.740
they're allowed to flourish in the fullness of
00:33:14.740 --> 00:33:18.799
their expression at this age and as an educator
00:33:18.799 --> 00:33:21.039
i find it a real privilege to interact with and
00:33:21.039 --> 00:33:23.200
support kids who are doing that politically you
00:33:23.200 --> 00:33:27.200
make a really good point and i myself um a lot
00:33:27.200 --> 00:33:28.839
of what you said about the privilege that i enjoy
00:33:29.630 --> 00:33:32.210
applies to my life. And like, for example, I
00:33:32.210 --> 00:33:35.250
don't have children by choice, biological ones.
00:33:35.509 --> 00:33:38.609
And that gives me arguably more time to pursue
00:33:38.609 --> 00:33:41.069
hobbies and passions that my friends who do have
00:33:41.069 --> 00:33:43.750
children don't have. And so your question is
00:33:43.750 --> 00:33:46.130
very pointed and it's not personal. How do we
00:33:46.130 --> 00:33:48.950
create the structures that allow people to flourish
00:33:48.950 --> 00:33:51.829
more in a more diverse way and be foxes if they
00:33:51.829 --> 00:33:54.609
want to be? And I simply don't know, but I suspect
00:33:54.609 --> 00:33:56.289
it has something to do with where resources go
00:33:56.289 --> 00:33:59.880
and how government functions. Without a doubt.
00:33:59.980 --> 00:34:03.140
And honestly, let me be very clear. No shade
00:34:03.140 --> 00:34:05.940
toward the Honors College or to those of us who
00:34:05.940 --> 00:34:09.219
do have the ability to wing it. I mean, here
00:34:09.219 --> 00:34:11.619
we are recording this podcast that's really meant
00:34:11.619 --> 00:34:13.940
to be an interdisciplinary conversation. This
00:34:13.940 --> 00:34:18.960
is itself, right, an artifact that identifies
00:34:18.960 --> 00:34:24.030
our own desire to kind of be a little foxy. I
00:34:24.030 --> 00:34:27.050
guess the worry that I have is, I mean, even
00:34:27.050 --> 00:34:30.449
the students that you mentioned, right, they're
00:34:30.449 --> 00:34:33.949
not, it sounds like dancing majors, right? There's
00:34:33.949 --> 00:34:36.030
a way in which even being a humanities major.
00:34:36.349 --> 00:34:38.309
They are dance majors, and many of them are double
00:34:38.309 --> 00:34:40.010
majors. Okay, double majors. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:34:40.050 --> 00:34:43.530
Sorry, sorry. Yeah. But my suspicion is that
00:34:43.530 --> 00:34:48.369
many of them may, they're foxy and expect to
00:34:48.369 --> 00:34:52.019
be able to continue that kind of. commitment
00:34:52.019 --> 00:34:55.360
to a whole variety of things because they have
00:34:55.360 --> 00:34:57.420
a professional future that includes something
00:34:57.420 --> 00:35:02.800
like being a doctor or living in a certain kind
00:35:02.800 --> 00:35:06.159
of tier economically that will make that possible.
00:35:06.619 --> 00:35:09.480
And so, listen, I think that that's, I don't
00:35:09.480 --> 00:35:11.619
want to use the word privilege to make people
00:35:11.619 --> 00:35:13.599
feel called out by any means. I think it's a
00:35:13.599 --> 00:35:15.280
really good thing to be able to do this sort
00:35:15.280 --> 00:35:17.920
of stuff. My sense is that there's a bigger thing
00:35:17.920 --> 00:35:21.610
going on where there is I mean, what you're talking
00:35:21.610 --> 00:35:24.369
about in terms of the structural realities there.
00:35:24.769 --> 00:35:30.269
We we appreciate pin cushion employees and the
00:35:30.269 --> 00:35:32.769
efficiency of the work that they're doing. And
00:35:32.769 --> 00:35:35.190
so in order to prove that your degree is worth
00:35:35.190 --> 00:35:38.590
it or your your hours are worth it or whatever.
00:35:40.010 --> 00:35:42.909
That's proven by how many pins you made or how
00:35:42.909 --> 00:35:46.349
many digits are on your paycheck or any other
00:35:46.349 --> 00:35:48.849
similar things. And if it's above a certain threshold,
00:35:49.050 --> 00:35:51.130
well, then you've earned your right to be a fox.
00:35:51.530 --> 00:35:55.670
But below that, I think a lot of us will feel,
00:35:55.829 --> 00:35:57.889
especially in our early days, we'll feel the
00:35:57.889 --> 00:36:00.769
pressure to be a hedgehog, to be driven. And
00:36:00.769 --> 00:36:04.389
then if we're lucky, then we can earn the right
00:36:04.389 --> 00:36:08.739
to be the Renaissance. man or woman or whatever
00:36:08.739 --> 00:36:10.320
that we might want to be. Just want to add one
00:36:10.320 --> 00:36:12.260
little wrinkle. I think you're absolutely right
00:36:12.260 --> 00:36:15.860
that it is a position of privilege to be able
00:36:15.860 --> 00:36:19.980
to cultivate a variety of talents. But that privilege
00:36:19.980 --> 00:36:22.539
doesn't go necessarily hand in hand with money.
00:36:23.220 --> 00:36:26.679
Because the people who make the most money are
00:36:26.679 --> 00:36:30.659
often don't have the time to cultivate it precisely
00:36:30.659 --> 00:36:32.840
because they make so much money because they're
00:36:32.840 --> 00:36:36.760
so good at their jobs. It's really young people
00:36:36.760 --> 00:36:39.880
often who get this privilege, the young people
00:36:39.880 --> 00:36:42.929
who are children of, but even. like high school
00:36:42.929 --> 00:36:45.130
students, like my daughter loves doing theater
00:36:45.130 --> 00:36:46.849
in high school. And I want to say to her, like,
00:36:46.889 --> 00:36:48.929
you should really appreciate this because you
00:36:48.929 --> 00:36:50.829
don't realize this. You've done your whole life.
00:36:51.090 --> 00:36:52.730
When you graduate from high school, you will
00:36:52.730 --> 00:36:56.809
probably never do another show again. And I feel
00:36:56.809 --> 00:36:59.449
like these alternative mats, you know, these
00:36:59.449 --> 00:37:02.050
other versions of me that I got to develop a
00:37:02.050 --> 00:37:03.570
different set of talents. Like there's a mat
00:37:03.570 --> 00:37:06.090
in me that wishes I was a graphic designer. And
00:37:06.090 --> 00:37:07.570
there's a mat in me that wishes I could have
00:37:07.570 --> 00:37:10.880
done art. Maybe I would have liked to have done
00:37:10.880 --> 00:37:13.360
theater. And especially now that I'm like in
00:37:13.360 --> 00:37:16.679
my 50s, like I feel so sad. Like these are never
00:37:16.679 --> 00:37:18.320
going to happen. I'm never going to get a chance
00:37:18.320 --> 00:37:20.679
to develop those different talents that I had.
00:37:21.199 --> 00:37:23.460
And how awesome would it be to be able to go
00:37:23.460 --> 00:37:25.019
back in time and like live a different version
00:37:25.019 --> 00:37:27.559
of my life where I could realize those other
00:37:27.559 --> 00:37:30.840
talents? I mean, I will say my daughter has recently
00:37:30.840 --> 00:37:33.400
she's about to turn five and she's recently gotten
00:37:33.400 --> 00:37:37.599
really into theater. We took her to. Frozen the
00:37:37.599 --> 00:37:40.360
musical when she was three and she loved it.
00:37:40.440 --> 00:37:42.400
And we've been to probably seven musicals since.
00:37:42.519 --> 00:37:45.159
And she is now going to be old enough to be in
00:37:45.159 --> 00:37:48.719
at the town theater opens up the junior shows
00:37:48.719 --> 00:37:51.519
from age five. And she's so looking forward to
00:37:51.519 --> 00:37:53.719
it. And honestly, one of the things that I'm
00:37:53.719 --> 00:37:56.900
excited about that is it it's a way like to kind
00:37:56.900 --> 00:38:01.219
of do that vicariously. Yes. You like to to like
00:38:01.219 --> 00:38:05.719
encourage my. my kids own foxiness, like feels
00:38:05.719 --> 00:38:08.119
like an outlet for me to be able to do some of
00:38:08.119 --> 00:38:11.820
that kind of hobby stuff. It's so exciting. And
00:38:11.820 --> 00:38:14.039
I'd like to ask Ella another question, if I may,
00:38:14.159 --> 00:38:16.360
since you're about to graduate college, and you're
00:38:16.360 --> 00:38:18.380
on the threshold of what I'm sure is going to
00:38:18.380 --> 00:38:20.320
be a brilliant career in film and media arts.
00:38:20.460 --> 00:38:22.559
And you also have diverse interests, like to
00:38:22.559 --> 00:38:24.079
mention only one of them, you're really into
00:38:24.079 --> 00:38:26.320
meteorology. And you've already integrated that
00:38:26.320 --> 00:38:30.429
with your cinematic focus. As you get ready to
00:38:30.429 --> 00:38:33.050
start your professional life, how do you respond
00:38:33.050 --> 00:38:35.309
to what Matt was saying about sort of his daughter
00:38:35.309 --> 00:38:37.750
and high school and drama and sort of doors closing
00:38:37.750 --> 00:38:40.590
as you move from student life to professional
00:38:40.590 --> 00:38:42.289
life? Like, how does that resonate with you?
00:38:42.409 --> 00:38:44.150
Fantastic question, because I was actually going
00:38:44.150 --> 00:38:47.170
to try and jump in because it's. As you were
00:38:47.170 --> 00:38:48.510
speaking, I was like, oh, wow, that's really
00:38:48.510 --> 00:38:50.469
emotional because I grew up doing theater my
00:38:50.469 --> 00:38:52.730
entire life. Probably, I think I went to see
00:38:52.730 --> 00:38:56.429
Little Mermaid when I was three. And I was obsessed
00:38:56.429 --> 00:38:58.969
with it and did it all the way until I graduated
00:38:58.969 --> 00:39:01.389
high school and have not done it since. And it
00:39:01.389 --> 00:39:05.269
is, I was very involved in the performing arts
00:39:05.269 --> 00:39:08.550
world. And it's not that there weren't opportunities.
00:39:08.550 --> 00:39:11.110
It's just that things shift and focuses change
00:39:11.110 --> 00:39:13.070
and new interests sprout up. And I do think that
00:39:13.070 --> 00:39:16.500
there is this. exciting thing about being young
00:39:16.500 --> 00:39:19.559
and trying so many things and as you move into
00:39:19.559 --> 00:39:21.639
new cities and make new friends and the people
00:39:21.639 --> 00:39:24.000
who knew that version of you aren't with you
00:39:24.000 --> 00:39:26.460
all the time and the parents who encouraged those
00:39:26.460 --> 00:39:28.639
interests even as they faded aren't there to
00:39:28.639 --> 00:39:32.340
continue in your face encouraging you um and
00:39:32.340 --> 00:39:35.760
it is it's i'm a sentimental person so it's definitely
00:39:35.760 --> 00:39:39.079
it's emotional but it's it's exciting in a lot
00:39:39.079 --> 00:39:41.739
of senses but it does feel like there's opportunities
00:39:41.739 --> 00:39:48.650
for I was talking to a friend about school beyond
00:39:48.650 --> 00:39:50.269
this because next week is the last full week
00:39:50.269 --> 00:39:52.070
of classes, and I'm like, wow, is this the last
00:39:52.070 --> 00:39:56.550
time ever? And I love school. I am a learner.
00:39:56.610 --> 00:39:59.969
I really love learning about everything. So it's
00:39:59.969 --> 00:40:02.969
something that I think about if I'll go back,
00:40:02.989 --> 00:40:05.289
and I would love to because I think I am interested
00:40:05.289 --> 00:40:07.369
in so many things you mentioned. My interest
00:40:07.369 --> 00:40:10.769
in meteorology, and I've done work dealing with...
00:40:10.940 --> 00:40:13.639
concepts regarding physics and all these different
00:40:13.639 --> 00:40:15.440
things where I think I would be so interested
00:40:15.440 --> 00:40:18.739
in going back and diving into those further.
00:40:19.079 --> 00:40:22.019
But it is definitely sad to not have that opportunity
00:40:22.019 --> 00:40:24.519
to pull up my registration and see where I can
00:40:24.519 --> 00:40:27.800
fit in another course. So it is a really special
00:40:27.800 --> 00:40:30.300
time to be in college and be a student. And I
00:40:30.300 --> 00:40:32.980
wish I appreciate, I mean, you always look back
00:40:32.980 --> 00:40:35.400
and you wish you appreciated it more, but next
00:40:35.400 --> 00:40:39.739
week will be special for sure. Nice. Okay. So
00:40:39.739 --> 00:40:43.420
this seems like a good moment to transition to
00:40:43.420 --> 00:40:47.460
closing thoughts and conclusions. So on the basis
00:40:47.460 --> 00:40:49.699
of this discussion, anyone have any closing thoughts?
00:40:50.280 --> 00:40:54.019
I mean, on our classic question, should we exercise
00:40:54.019 --> 00:40:58.400
our obsession with specialization? Exorcise with
00:40:58.400 --> 00:41:04.500
an O. I think that it's really valuable to have
00:41:04.500 --> 00:41:07.309
hedgehogs. I think it's wonderful that we have
00:41:07.309 --> 00:41:09.610
things like a research university, that we're
00:41:09.610 --> 00:41:11.690
here at a research university where we can fund
00:41:11.690 --> 00:41:17.090
really deep and powerful research that has all
00:41:17.090 --> 00:41:20.409
of the specialization and nuance and care and
00:41:20.409 --> 00:41:23.730
attention that some really specific areas require
00:41:23.730 --> 00:41:27.710
or merit. And I do really wish that we would
00:41:27.710 --> 00:41:34.010
do a little bit less of obsessing with how many
00:41:34.010 --> 00:41:37.269
pin cushions we can produce, right? My sense
00:41:37.269 --> 00:41:40.250
is that what we need is a new appreciation for
00:41:40.250 --> 00:41:49.550
the value of hobbies, of enrichment, of translation,
00:41:49.829 --> 00:41:56.010
right? Of socialization. Robert Putnam says is
00:41:56.010 --> 00:41:59.409
true, that data has gotten so much worse since
00:41:59.409 --> 00:42:05.969
the years that he published Bowling Alone. We
00:42:05.969 --> 00:42:09.969
need it for the benefit of our social factory
00:42:09.969 --> 00:42:13.059
or body or whatever it is. And so I hope that
00:42:13.059 --> 00:42:15.579
we could at least provide a little bit of a correction
00:42:15.579 --> 00:42:20.360
or a corrective to the over -specialization that
00:42:20.360 --> 00:42:23.380
we see. I think we need hedgehogs, but we may
00:42:23.380 --> 00:42:27.380
have too many of them. That's my sense. I would
00:42:27.380 --> 00:42:29.559
agree. I'm fond of anecdotes, so I'll tell another
00:42:29.559 --> 00:42:31.960
brief one from the last couple of days. I was
00:42:31.960 --> 00:42:35.059
at my accountant's office signing my tax returns.
00:42:35.769 --> 00:42:38.650
And the receptionist who welcomed me and who
00:42:38.650 --> 00:42:41.650
gave me the packet to sign was a really dynamic
00:42:41.650 --> 00:42:45.130
person who is also a quilter in addition to working
00:42:45.130 --> 00:42:47.170
full time in this time of year, way more than
00:42:47.170 --> 00:42:50.250
full time at an accounting firm. And I asked
00:42:50.250 --> 00:42:51.849
if I could see some of her quilts and she pulls
00:42:51.849 --> 00:42:53.889
out her phone and she shows me photos and they
00:42:53.889 --> 00:42:57.800
were just. beautiful and so resourceful. In one
00:42:57.800 --> 00:43:01.679
of them, she used patches from her late father's
00:43:01.679 --> 00:43:05.460
shirts and worked those into her quilt. And I
00:43:05.460 --> 00:43:08.519
feel like underneath our noses are examples of
00:43:08.519 --> 00:43:10.840
people, Mary, who do have those hobbies and who
00:43:10.840 --> 00:43:15.659
do place non -metrical value on that way of honoring
00:43:15.659 --> 00:43:19.289
a deceased parent, for example. So I 100 % agree
00:43:19.289 --> 00:43:21.110
with you. And as you're talking, there's this
00:43:21.110 --> 00:43:22.849
question in the back of my mind, like, how do
00:43:22.849 --> 00:43:26.110
we do this? As a university, as a city, as a
00:43:26.110 --> 00:43:29.030
society, it sounds great. But how do we value
00:43:29.030 --> 00:43:31.010
something in a world that's really obsessed by
00:43:31.010 --> 00:43:35.070
metrics? We've circled back around that a lot.
00:43:35.150 --> 00:43:38.730
And it sounds like this might merit another conversation.
00:43:39.349 --> 00:43:43.260
Okay. I agree with everything you guys have said
00:43:43.260 --> 00:43:46.360
in these closing thoughts. And I guess I come
00:43:46.360 --> 00:43:49.239
away from this discussion inspired to try to
00:43:49.239 --> 00:43:54.480
find ways in my own life to make space for foxiness,
00:43:54.559 --> 00:43:59.139
to make space for developing alternative talents
00:43:59.139 --> 00:44:02.360
for myself, but also for my family, for my coworkers,
00:44:02.639 --> 00:44:05.119
for the people that I supervise at the office.
00:44:06.579 --> 00:44:08.820
I just think it's really important. It's important
00:44:08.820 --> 00:44:12.380
for people personally. to get to develop all
00:44:12.380 --> 00:44:15.360
of their talents, living a good life. But I think
00:44:15.360 --> 00:44:17.719
it's also good for us as a society to not be
00:44:17.719 --> 00:44:20.280
so specialized. So I'm going to be looking for
00:44:20.280 --> 00:44:22.960
those. I mean, number one is I am not going to
00:44:22.960 --> 00:44:25.539
pressure my kids to have a marketable college
00:44:25.539 --> 00:44:29.519
major, certainly not in high school, definitely
00:44:29.519 --> 00:44:33.010
not even in college. Um, I think that's really
00:44:33.010 --> 00:44:34.590
important though. Of course my kids don't listen
00:44:34.590 --> 00:44:36.369
to me. I already tell them all that and they
00:44:36.369 --> 00:44:39.150
still feel it. So, but yeah, but I look for opportunities
00:44:39.150 --> 00:44:42.670
like that. That's my takeaway. Yeah. I mean,
00:44:42.670 --> 00:44:45.670
um, honestly, part of the reason that we've gone
00:44:45.670 --> 00:44:47.630
to so many musicals is I've just wanted to support
00:44:47.630 --> 00:44:50.150
those, like the high schools that are putting
00:44:50.150 --> 00:44:51.889
these things on, you know, those sorts of programs.
00:44:52.070 --> 00:44:54.559
So I think that there are little bitty. teeny
00:44:54.559 --> 00:44:56.519
ways, too, not just in the ways that we're talking
00:44:56.519 --> 00:44:58.579
with our kids, but the choices that we make to
00:44:58.579 --> 00:45:01.099
kind of say, yeah, this matters, and I'm going
00:45:01.099 --> 00:45:04.539
to throw some of my own investment in that direction.
00:45:04.820 --> 00:45:07.099
Ella, do you have any parting thoughts? Thank
00:45:07.099 --> 00:45:10.699
you for having me on. This was lovely. I do think
00:45:10.699 --> 00:45:14.360
that, like everyone said, it is so important,
00:45:14.420 --> 00:45:16.559
I think, with interdisciplinary work. It informs
00:45:16.559 --> 00:45:19.000
everything. If I hadn't been able to take...
00:45:19.369 --> 00:45:21.110
If I didn't have to take a science class for
00:45:21.110 --> 00:45:22.690
the liberal arts education, I never would have
00:45:22.690 --> 00:45:25.670
taken the broadcast meteorology course that inspired
00:45:25.670 --> 00:45:29.969
my creative honors thesis. It all is in conversation
00:45:29.969 --> 00:45:31.530
with each other, like I've said. And I think
00:45:31.530 --> 00:45:34.650
my conversations with my business friends are
00:45:34.650 --> 00:45:36.590
just as riveting as my conversations with my
00:45:36.590 --> 00:45:39.769
filmmaker friends. And it all helps develop,
00:45:40.050 --> 00:45:42.730
especially for me as a creative. You need to
00:45:42.730 --> 00:45:44.829
write about something, so might as well learn
00:45:44.829 --> 00:45:47.610
something to write about. Amazing. Nice. I love
00:45:47.610 --> 00:45:49.130
that. I think we should let Ella have the last
00:45:49.130 --> 00:45:51.429
word. Beautiful. Thanks so much, Ella.