Sean Hocking And The Karma Koala Podcast

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And welcome to the podcasters brow.
This is King of Podcasts. Thanks for
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joining me here on the program.
Kingopodcasts dot Com is the website and you
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can catch all my past interviews as
we go into our next one and real
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quickly, I have had a chance
to go and talk to my next guest,
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where one of the things I can
tell you is that if you didn't
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know already about me, that I
work in podcasting in various sectors, and
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two of them are in tech specifically
digital marketing, affiliate marketing, social media
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and the like. And the other
part is cannabis is psychedelics. And so
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I mean I have more than a
I mean I have thousands upon thousands of
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contacts of people that have content and
connected with in the cannabis industry. And
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trust me, there are a lot
of podcasts out there on camp of which
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a couple of my hosts on Cannabisradio
dot com. So I host Blump Business,
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which is a longer form thirty minute
discussion where we just really go into
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the meet of where I take a
guest on their expertise, their field of
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expertise, and we go in the
current subjects that are going on that are
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at the moment at that moment today, and I will go ahead and talk
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to those kind of guests there.
And then Grassroots Marketing is another program.
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It's a shorter form. Usually we
do a lot of conference coverage, so
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like for conferences around the country.
If we have those that are just getting
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a chance to be introduced to Cannabis
Radio in terms of new products or new
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ideas, new organizations, we bring
them on that program. And I've been
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doing that for since twenty eighteen,
coming up on five years now, doing
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both shows. But while I've been
doing here my independent projects, he's done
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a lot of work when it comes
into the legal industry, a lot of
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projects he's on. He's been in
the legal publishing industry for twenty five years.
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Work for a law book company and
Point of Law in Sydney, Australia,
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and upon them in the London.
He worked for Legal es UK,
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the creator of the Legal five hundred
series, the Law Awards concept and Legal
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Businessman magazine as their international print media
sales director. Right now, he is
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currently hosting a podcast called the Karma
Koala Podcast and he also is the editor
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of the Cannabis Law Report. Website
is Cannabis Law dot Report. I'm here
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with Sean Hockey and Shaw joining me
here from Australia. Thanks for staying up
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with me, No, no problem
at all. It's late here, but
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always happy to talk. So if
I were doing something over on Cannabis Radio,
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I'm going to go into some things
where one thing in particular in America,
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and obviously you keep up with what
is going on legally around the world.
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And one of the things that's very
point of mind now when I talk
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to accountants, when I talk to
virtual CFOs over on Cannabis Radio, they've
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been talking about how the DEA now
is looking to go or what was it
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a that right now the DEA is
considering a rescheduling of cannabis from Schedule one,
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which would be still an the legal
substance to Schedule three. And one
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of the things that would be important
for that it wouldn't change the status of
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how without a medical marian of card
or not begin a state where you have
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adult use or medical cannabis use.
One of the things that would be changing
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for cannabis businesses is the area where
Section two eighty e internal Revenue source Code
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that causes companies to not be able
to go and write off for tax purposes,
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so they accrue more taxes upon the
sales tax, the revenue taxes that
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they already get a crudal pron on
a regular basis. Once this changes,
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it would change around. Is that
something you've heard a lot about from legal
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scholar Attorney's actually had a lot of
a number of conversations on the Common Coal
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podcast with people in the industry,
lawyers, accountants, and also some sort
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of smaller end business owners as well
as a couple of guys actually Aspector in
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California who run brand and advertising.
And as you say, the number one
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thing is the two at allowing them
to eventually have a little bit more freedom
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from the tax office. But the
other thing that it really is sort of
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hasn't been discussed as much as it
also changes the amount of federal research funds
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that can go towards cannabis. So
that means as soon as we hit Schedule
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three, there's a lot more money
that can be dolled out towards and to
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worlds, educational institutions, etc.
So that allows business to actually work on
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data that they can actually then present
formally and create improve and create more business.
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There's a lot of cannabis podcasts that
like to just do the We want
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to get to know you better,
know about your background, tell us about
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what you're doing. I'm gonna say
this. I produce the show that they're
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the main focus on. It is
banking, payments, finance investments, and
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in a thirty minute interview, the
first twenty minutes was to talk about the
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career of the guest. That's fine, but I like for other podcasters to
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know that if you're bringing them on
to talk about particular subjects and you're a
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niche focused program, let's get to
the actual heart of the matter. I
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couldn't change the host s mine if
I try it, and that's okay.
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If they want to do their shows
like that, it's fine as a sponsorship,
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but in the programming that I do, I want to give people something
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tangible and take away. In your
proadcast in Karma Kowala, I notice a
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number of the names that you have
on are people I've had the chance to
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interview as well, with Corwin a
stone Road, Jonathan Bohen of Weedar,
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and I se Aaron Bloom of dot
MJ. I've had a number of those
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people on, and one of those
things is like I said, I like
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to go and talk current events and
what things are the obstacles and issues they're
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talking about on I'm very boring,
is I always start the show as you
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know, we obviously quickly cover somebody's
bio, but essentially I was, you
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know, everybody who know who's talking
to me knows we're talking about the one
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major thing in cannabis, which is
compliance, and every other topic that we
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can rediscuss, whether it be rescheduling
or could be safe banking this week,
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it could be could be a whole
range of topics, and it's always with
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the cannabis, it's all compliance,
compliance, compliance. So you know,
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my background obviously is legal publishing.
That's what the podcast comes out of the
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website idea. You know, as
I started the publishing the website on twenty
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fifteen, the podcast about twenty eighteen, like you around about the same time.
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And the main reason I did that
was to, you know, put
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a voice to that boring, boring
word compliance. Everything is about compliance and
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enforcement. And I could probably say
the word compliance at least two hundred times
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in this discussion because in the end, nothing works in cannabis without that word.
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Now, how much time do you
like to go ahead and focus on
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if you need to go and put
a little bit of background and context on
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the guest. I mean, it's
one of those things where I mean,
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I understand for some hosts of you
want to take a few minutes to qualify
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the guests and show, hey,
this person's important. We're going to talk
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about something really important with this guest. I'm going to show you why,
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and then we're going to get into
it. Is that kind of the idea
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where you go with it? Yeah, well, I mean, you know,
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I do a couple of things on
my podcast. Is first up,
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I'm a bit of a bit of
a music freak, so I away is
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introduce and come in with some music
that's a little bit different to start with,
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and then I have a very quick
discussion about who the person is.
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But anybody listening to me and reading
my site knows that I'm the only guy
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that does law and cannabis specifically in
week out, day in, day out,
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so they know that the conversation on
the Karma Koala is going to be
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about legal related issues. And you
know out of that conversation of five years
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that the lead word has always been
compliance and and it will be after if
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and when federal comes in, it's
you know, until you and I the
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day we die, that is going
to be the conversation if you're building a
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new industry, is how to make
it compliant and work within the existing economic
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structure. And because there's so much
history to cannabis, more so than psychedelics,
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which we can touch on in a
bit, which is a little bit
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different, well way different. Actually
many people might think it's something similar,
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but it's actually way different. But
cannabis, you know it, and the
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llegal market was created before the war, the Second World War and has been
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in existence nine on a one hundred
years, and so compliance on both sides
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of the fence, on the black
and gray market and then on the on
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the regulated market, whether that be
state or federal, is always going to
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be the main part of the conversation
compliance and enforcement. So I got the
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chance in the almost twenty years,
it'll be in January or to me in
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August next year that all I've done
podcasting. And there were two legal shows
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that I specifically worked on first and
foremost one it's called Legal Pad. It
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was actually when we were when I
was actually hosting, I was producing the
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show for why not ynt which is
an adult website company, and we talked
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about the various areas when it came
to the UC code twenty to fifty seven,
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forty four to thirty two. That
was really the focus at that time
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of the documentation and all the paperwhip
has been done on the adult industry,
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porn specifically in digital because of all
the changes that digital was creating across the
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board when it was not so much
you know, actually just magazines and just
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videos. What we had then was
after that, I actually produced for the
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show for over ten years, the
Cyber Law Business Report, and that was
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a Ben Kelly Internet Law Center,
and it was a great show to put
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on. We definitely went into areas
of politics, so definitely took into areas
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of Washington and looking a lot into
tech in terms of what was being changed,
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but specifically was just looking at very
issues of you know, the cyber
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attacks, of looking for people that
were being you know, revenge issues,
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people being attacked, just privacy issues
across the board. And those hosts never
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really had an issue of going right
into the legal jargon and going into various
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cases and being really in depth.
Is that something that when you look at
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your audience. What's the What have
you learned is how they've responded to how
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deep in the weed you can get
into actual content? And do you feel
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like you need to keep a little
more basic and pliable for them? I
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tend to keep things. Look,
most of my listeners know the topic already
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very well, So discussing in great
detail a specific case, for example,
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or a specific piece of legislation isn't
of great interest to them because they know
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that already. What they want to
do, what they want to know is
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what other people or possible clients are
thinking in the industry with regard to a
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specific topic. So that I mean, that's yeah. And also I think
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a lot of the podcasts that I
hear in the States, as you say,
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there's a lot of very long winded
introductions and then there's a there's a
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there's a there's a there's a lot
of chatter where everybody's talking in sort of
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cannabis code, and what you know, what I'm trying to do with my
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guests is be fairly straightforward and say, look, these people are working in
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a very sophisticated and difficult industry to
work in, and what we're really trying
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to say is that to understand the
industry, you need to understand the people
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working in it and around it,
and they have a lot of knowledge depth,
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and that needs to be got across
to the listener, whether your listener
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is going to be a legislator in
a state that hasn't done something yet,
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or whether your listener is somebody who's
thinking about starting a business in another state
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that maybe is only legalized or regulated
medical marijuana rather than regulated adult use.
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So what we're trying to do is
is really get across that are there are
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certain issues. We don't need to
really dig really deep into in the podcast
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to those issues because that you know, for example, we can to a
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lawyer if there's a possible client,
they're going to have that conversation anyway.
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So what we're really trying to do
is illustrate the quality of people in cannabis,
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because there's still a lot of a
lot of sort of quiet thinking in
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the world outside cannabis that it's all
a bit sort of you know, early
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seventies high times sort of vibe.
Still we're actually we're in an entirely different
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world, and you know, you
wouldn't believe it or not. People still
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think like that, and it's just
getting that across that. Also, I
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think it's very important. You know, cannabis at the moment is very US
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centric, and I'm also trying to
get across with my guests that actually we're
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talking about a global change and a
global industry. So for instance, yeah,
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there's a certain amount of stuff happening
in Australia at the moment, but
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for example, a very active market
at the moment, or very active jurisdiction
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as we'd say, on the legal
side of things, is Thailand and how
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they opened up their market and now
they're deciding actually they want to try and
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sort of tighten things up in the
adult use side. What's happening in Europe
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a lot with CBD at the moment, and also quite a lot of changes
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in places like Africa, And we're
really trying to get across that it's a
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global industry, just like any other
sector you could be talking about. You
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know, I want people to think
is as boring as shipping basically again,
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and that's how far a back that
word again compliance, because it's all it's
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all about getting the issue across that
it's an industry that needs to move forward
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and everybody needs to sort of grow
up a bit about it and not think
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of it as you know, I
want twenty eight percent THC and that's that's
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the end of the conversation. So
you know, to go back to your
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your question is, I don't think
we need to dig right into the minuteIE
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of a certain piece of state legislation
or a particular case to illustrate the point.
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It's more important to show that the
people I'm speaking to know this already,
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are very intelligent and can speak about
it in an adult manner, and
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it's it's something to be taken seriously. And when you bring up part of
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where those guests come on and they're
not coming in with that seventies high time
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that the stereotype you know, we're
trying to get away from. You get
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a chance to really realize the expertise, the professionalism of those that have been
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coming in from other sectors. And
I'm sure you realize how many people you've
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brought onto your program Karma Koala that
have come up for various sectors to come
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into the space and join the cannabis
industry, from Fortune five hundred companies or
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wherever levels of you know, sea
level work that they've done to come into
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the space, bring their your skill
set into the space, and have a
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real understanding for the legal end,
the compliance end, from the business end,
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the cultivation and and I mean,
look, that's that's one hundred percent
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correct, and a lot of it's
it's interesting you should mention this because a
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lot of a lot of people rushed
in four or five years ago, thinking,
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you know, with a normal gold
rush thing. And the interesting thing
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is the people who have remained within
the sector have become very very uh but
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emotional is the wrong word, but
it's sort of close to that. They
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they've really understood that there's a real
few and that they become you know,
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they become wedded to it. So
you know, it's it's like anything new.
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A whole lot of people come in
and the ones who were just chasing
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the money normally leave fairly quickly.
But then you know there's always left about
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about twenty percent of people who some
of which probably didn't really believe, as
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you know, they just thought it
would be interesting. But I've noticed with
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the people that I've speak to have
come from other sectors, they really want
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to they see it as a way
of change, and this sort of leads
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into what you touched on very early
in our conversation about you know, people
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talking about the market now with regard
to psychedelics and legislation in terms of therapies
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for psychedelic compounds, and I think, you know, these two sectors they're
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quite different, but they work hand
in hand because it allows people to work
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in an industry that they really believe
in, and they're also understanding that because
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of all the blocks that are put
in the way, it's not easy money.
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None of it is actually easy money. And that in a way that
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creates that creates more knowledge, more
love for the sector, more desire to
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make it work for the people that
not for themselves so much, but for
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the people who will benefit from the
range of products and ideas that are generated
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from this sector. And that's why
I carry on working in it, and
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especially with lawyers. You know,
it's creating a whole range of different types
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of lawyers. You know, some
of them are just working your standard what
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you know, white shoe law firm
type approach, but doing deals bang bang
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bang. But it's also now now
bringing up lawyers, for example, who
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work entirely in environmental law and cannabis
and anything from planning, but also looking
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at the way that it's becoming another
agriculture industry, and that should be wrong.
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Cannabis should actually be treated, should
should lead the way to teach other
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parts of agriculture that you can do
things in a different way and improve the
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planet as you as you create a
huge, a large industrial sector. So
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there's a whole that's just one example
of the type of the types of things
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that people are doing just from the
one word cannabis. I noticed from some
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of the guests you have on as
well, because at the same time,
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there might be some guests that you
have on that all might have had on
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before or after you. That would
tell me that the PR firms that are
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a plenty in the space, some
that are very you know, I want
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to go and start naming names because
I'm I'm gonna miss somebody. But there's
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a lot of good pr in the
space that have come in to represent companies
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and they're always seeking podcasts like ours
to get their guests on. Of course
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payter to media, they're getting something
out of this, but also it's a
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chance to go ahead and connect with
these guests that we can use for just
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like you do right now with some
of the subjects who can go and talk
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about you obviously kind of go in
the same mindset that I've been trying to
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do as well, where I want
to use them not just to go and
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talk about their background, like that's
a good focus, we can bring that
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up, but I like to go
in the fact of let's get into the
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actual things that they can actually talk
about that we can actually inform the public
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on. What do you think about
what you've done with the PR companies and
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if you have a lot of them
that reach out to you, and you
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know, how much does it really
help the fuel the guest pool in your
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podcast? Well, initially not at
all, and I chose my guests directly
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and mainly I was choosing specifically lawyers. But actually recently, in the last
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sort of eight or nine months,
I've reached out to PR companies and I've
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asked them to get in touch with
me if they have interesting people, because
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I've begun to you know, I
want to get a wider range of voices
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on the show. You know,
I specifically stuck with professionals to start with,
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so essentially CPAs and lawyers and then
some policymakers and legislators but I am
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sort of pulling more. I'm pulling
more from the industry because it sort of
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goes back to that last thing I
said was five years ago, there were
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lots of people industry I didn't really
want to talk to because they were just
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there for for a short period to
you know, jack up a share price
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or get a product launched. But
now most people I'm dealing with that are
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given to me by these PR companies
have started their own companies, or if
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they've joined from somewhere else, they
want to make something of the company that
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they're in, or if or it's
longer term, they want to make something
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in the industry, and not just
in the US, but as a as
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a global sector. So you know
what I'm interested with a lot of these
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guys is I'm talking to them now
because I want to be talking to them
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once a year or once twice a
year even and to see where their story,
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so to speak, goes over the
next three to five years. You
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know, I've got this view that
we probably won't see regulation on a federal
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level until, if we're really lucky, the the last the last part of
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the next presidential cycle, or even
the next one after that. So I'm
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looking to find, find and follow
people within the sector as they have to
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negotiate a whole range of rather sort
of horrible and difficult issues, Uh,
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while the politicians mess around with what
inevitably has to happen, And and and
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watch them, you know, grow
a skill base that is basically unmatched anywhere
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else on the planet. And and
then and be able to say people,
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look, you know, you're seeing
people who are building companies and a whole
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range of areas that support this sector, whether it be you know, a
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brand person, or whether it be
a packaging person, or whether it be
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a small business person in terms of
running retail, et cetera, et cetera.
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And following those people through this process
of getting to federal regulation, which
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then creates a whole new world,
which gives us another five years of conversations,
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ten years of conversations as they operate
that world. I want to ask,
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now, you do focus mostly on
the US, but you're based in
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Australia and you've been in England based
before. Do you do any focus on
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world markets? I mean, I
know we have there's obviously the Marcus that
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are being built up in Latin America. I mean even just a little bit
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on what we've done on business on
the program my host, We've gotten a
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little bit to talk about Africa when
it comes to Malawi opening up as a
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or Lusutu as becoming a country,
or countries that we're able to go ahead
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and have medical cannabis use and seeing
if there was going to be any Marcus
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that were going to be opening up
and saying Europe, we've been seeing a
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lot of talking about that or in
South Africa, and is there any focus
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on that that you ever put into
because of the fact that you're international,
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but you obviously look at the US
very importantly for whether the US is where
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it's happening. I mean, you
know, there is a small is a
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small mature market. Australia is a
is a small mature market that operates under
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sort of basically a cartel environment that
you know where you know and part of
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the cultivation you're getting a lot of
a lot of a product that's coming in
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from Canada of correct import export exactly
right. But I mean in terms of
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I find with the conversations and the
people I work with, especially in the
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professions, the knowledge because of partly
because of the confusion, but partly because
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the market is so big. Really, the US will will lead the world
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in this industry, whether anybody else
likes that fact or not. You know
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that that firstly, as we've discussed, there's people coming in from other fortune
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five hundred companies who works in the
global environment before, so you know,
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they know what their their end plan
is. Of course, once there's once
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there's fedial legislation, the UN has
to change his mind. Once the UN
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changes his mind, everybody else changes
their mind. The US is at the
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center of that. They then have
an industry that they can export intellectual property
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as well as product or so you
know that it all comes from the US.
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But there's other markets that will develop
around in parallel with that, and
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some will stay more independent from the
US market than others, just like any
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other you know, the fact is
the US, you know, as much
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as people like to say it's an
economic decline, it leads the world in
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most sectors, and it's always going
to leave the world in cannabis because it's
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only competitor on a global scale is
a country called China, who's going to
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have absolutely nothing to do with cannabis. For you know, probably four hundred
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five hundred years minimum. That they
don't change their minds quickly about anything.
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So this is where all the not
is coming from. These other markets exist,
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are important and have their own stories
and have their own histories, and
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I cover them a reasonable amount as
much as I possibly can. But you
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know, the central market is the
US, and that's and you know the
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central part of the central market is
the west coast of the US. And
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that's just a fact. It's not
going to change. No, you're right,
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it's And it's not like I even
try to go looking out for outside
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of the US. I mean,
we covered a lot of Canada when they
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first legalized. There was just so
much. For me, it was a
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matter of how much are we learning, specifically when it comes to what the
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role model is going to be for
the roll out of legalization, which I
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say personally is three to five years
online. If even that full fledged federal
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oversight, I don't see it right
now because right now Congress is being set.
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There's just too many things policy makers
are doing right now, where while
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the bills are already on the table
they can be put up for vote any
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time. Safe banking that same thing, and other various pills they're just not
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being touched right now. I mean, if President Biden wanted to go ahead
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and win reelection, or any Democratic
or Republican presidential candidate won the one election,
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cannabis would be one of those areas
that would really put someone over the
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top. Personally, I think that
is. But they're not going to do
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that right now. Plus there's not
enough lobbing money coming in from cannabis with
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the help of tobacco and alcohol to
make that happen. Now, these are
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the normal subjects. These are the
kind of things I would say, specifically
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on blunt business where I don't mind
being editorial. I will go ahead and
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speak when I see things from the
guests I brought on and from the information
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I read regularly. Like I'm not
even a member of the Cannabis raace.
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I don't even smoke or ingest it. I never have, but I managed
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cannabis Radio. But that's put out
because I'm an advocate for the space.
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I believe in legalization and I wanted
to happen, and I would love to
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see it where the States Act came
into play state by state basis, they
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can all vote on what they want
to have in terms of if those states
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want to have medical or adult use, rock on go for it, because
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they try to get every state go
and go on board with it, like
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Texas or you know, like some
others that are out there that I don't
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think it would ever go and take
that on themselves. That's different. Now,
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is there anything you do in terms
of where you're just facilitating the guests,
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you're getting the information, you're fact
finding, you're learning. Do you
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ever put your own editorial input into
each podcast? In each of my podcasts,
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it's a bit. It's a bit
like this, we're having a conversation,
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so by default there is editorial input. But I try with my podcast
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to let my guests lead as much
as possible, right and just you know,
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and just ask them some fairly direct
questions throughout our half an hour conversation,
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and every now and then I'll throw
in a little bit of This would
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be simply because most people who listen
to me will also be reading my website,
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which is again it's it's it.
I try and obviously put a a
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balanced approach to everything on the website, the pros and the cons, but
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essentially it's a cannabis website. Therefore, there's a reason there's a reason I'm
375
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publishing a cannabis website is because you
know, I do tend to believes,
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as difficult and confusing as it can
be sometimes that you know, regulate,
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you know, I have a fairly
libertarian view towards drugs. You don't regulate
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the whole lot of them, you
know, not so nice people take control
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of them, and it makes life
miserable for a lot of people all over
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the planet. So you know,
let's talk about it a bit more seriously
381
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and stop sniggering. And so that's
that's what as I said earlier, that's
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what I'm trying to do with my
guess is to get the point of cross
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Hopefully, so when somebody listens to
something on Spotify a few years down the
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line, because they're taking a bit
more seriously, somebody, hopefully somebody important,
385
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listen to that, they hear a
whole lot of voices from the past
386
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and the present, and they go
those voices actually know what they're talking about,
387
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you know, and actually, you
know, it's not done what they're
388
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saying. What they're saying makes a
lot of sense. And that's all I'm
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trying to get across with, especially
with the podcast, is there's a lot
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of extremely bright people out there who
have chosen this as their specialty. And
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you know, before we finish it, I like to say, there's a
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lot of very young, bright people
out there. So I'm working with a
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few people just coming out of college
now create a thing called Cannabis Law Students
394
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Association where I'm trying to pull out
the best people coming out of law school
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so and start giving them a space
to be able to talk about what the
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industry, what the sector is,
because essentially, it's that generation that will
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shape it. It's not our generation, and it's not even people in their
398
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thirties. It's people in their twenties
who are actually going to shape the what
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will become the reality sensible cannabis,
psychedelics, cocaine, heroin, opiates,
400
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whatever you know. Industries, sectors
areas of regulation I like to call them,
401
00:31:15.440 --> 00:31:19.680
because that's that's what is inevitably going
to happen. And people, you
402
00:31:19.720 --> 00:31:25.119
know, our generation aren't grown grown
up enough to have this discussion. I'm
403
00:31:25.160 --> 00:31:27.720
noticing that if I speak to people
in their early twenties, it's a no
404
00:31:27.799 --> 00:31:33.960
brainer to have this discussion in not
part of it. So the thing is
405
00:31:34.640 --> 00:31:38.839
agree with the fact that I'm making
sure we have information out there to educate
406
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those coming into the space, whether
they're getting certified through various programs where there's
407
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actually cause degrees and credits that are
out there now for those students to come
408
00:31:47.720 --> 00:31:49.720
into the space, Like we do
need those that are going to be educated,
409
00:31:49.799 --> 00:31:52.000
recruited, brought into the space,
they're going to get a chance to
410
00:31:52.039 --> 00:31:56.240
go ahead and find the pipeline to
find work in the space. There's gonna
411
00:31:56.240 --> 00:31:59.839
be a lot of job an industry
right now. One of the thing don't
412
00:31:59.839 --> 00:32:01.240
want to make a point back to
going back to editorial is that for me
413
00:32:01.720 --> 00:32:05.079
because I don't have a dog in
a fight, Like I'm not part of
414
00:32:05.079 --> 00:32:07.359
a company that where what if I
say anything, you know it's going to
415
00:32:07.400 --> 00:32:10.640
affect stock price, It's not going
to affect anything. I just feel like
416
00:32:12.519 --> 00:32:14.759
I like the fact that what I
do with my show is I take an
417
00:32:14.880 --> 00:32:17.680
editorial stance on certain issues where it
comes to compliance. I'll constantly talk about
418
00:32:17.720 --> 00:32:22.839
companies be proactive. If you need
to go to GMP status, do it.
419
00:32:22.880 --> 00:32:25.519
I know it's going to be cost
more, But the thing is I
420
00:32:25.559 --> 00:32:29.240
want to go ahead and be aiblding
and making a message to those out there,
421
00:32:29.279 --> 00:32:31.759
because I realize what voice I have
on the platform, so I will
422
00:32:31.799 --> 00:32:36.240
be editorial, but I mean it's
also in support of the industry, and
423
00:32:36.279 --> 00:32:39.079
it's also staying a political as well. I never bring politics to any of
424
00:32:39.119 --> 00:32:43.240
my programming. I don't like to
do that. It just clutters too much.
425
00:32:44.759 --> 00:32:45.839
If I'm going to say politically,
it's going to be the fact that
426
00:32:45.880 --> 00:32:50.359
I want cannabis past. I want
cannabis legal. I don't care who does
427
00:32:50.400 --> 00:32:53.559
it. I just want it done. I mean, I think that that's
428
00:32:53.599 --> 00:32:57.880
the one great thing about cannabis in
the US. It's one of the few
429
00:32:58.680 --> 00:33:05.079
people use it politically, but generally
it's actually much less political than any other
430
00:33:05.200 --> 00:33:08.240
jurisdiction around the world. So if
you look at Australia, there's a there's
431
00:33:08.240 --> 00:33:14.000
a there's a very big distinction between
what we'd call the left and the right
432
00:33:14.400 --> 00:33:19.319
right on view. But actually in
the US there isn't just certain individuals know
433
00:33:19.440 --> 00:33:23.000
which buttons to press to get certain
things they want at certain times, but
434
00:33:23.400 --> 00:33:27.680
essentially across the board, everybody knows
this is something that's got to happen at
435
00:33:27.720 --> 00:33:31.640
some stage, and everybody knows that
certain people like to put the stop on
436
00:33:31.680 --> 00:33:36.920
it because they it's politically expedient for
them to do it. They don't actually
437
00:33:36.960 --> 00:33:40.319
believe in what they're doing. Half
the time, there is a there is
438
00:33:40.359 --> 00:33:47.119
a very mature view to cannabis and
generally an increasingly mature view to a range
439
00:33:47.440 --> 00:33:53.359
of illegal substances or compounds. In
the US, it's it's just when to
440
00:33:53.440 --> 00:33:59.480
tackle it amongst all the other things. And you know, whereas somewhere like
441
00:33:59.519 --> 00:34:05.279
the UK is very immature on these
things still. So the US really in
442
00:34:05.400 --> 00:34:10.119
terms of not just the not just
the politicians, but people generally, whether
443
00:34:10.159 --> 00:34:16.320
they agree or disagree with it,
you know, they've they've seen what the
444
00:34:16.360 --> 00:34:21.119
Sacla family have done, and they
I think most people say, well,
445
00:34:21.199 --> 00:34:25.480
you know, we really need to
have a better understanding and control on these
446
00:34:25.519 --> 00:34:32.000
things, because otherwise we don't want
we don't want we don't want cocaine cartels
447
00:34:32.000 --> 00:34:39.280
from Mexico or the Sacla family ruining
members of our family's lives forever moving forward.
448
00:34:39.800 --> 00:34:44.239
You know, I think Americans have
come to that realization over the last
449
00:34:44.320 --> 00:34:49.559
ten fifteen years, whereas around the
world a lot of places still haven't come
450
00:34:49.599 --> 00:34:53.000
to that sort of realization that you
know, it doesn't matter on either side
451
00:34:53.000 --> 00:34:58.880
of the equation, there are people
who aren't nice and that they need to
452
00:34:59.360 --> 00:35:02.480
they need to be out of the
equation and common sense needs to come in.
453
00:35:05.320 --> 00:35:07.039
So one of the things I want
to bring up that you brought it
454
00:35:07.119 --> 00:35:12.360
into your the work right here,
is there was a website you mentioned and
455
00:35:12.400 --> 00:35:15.960
there was a particular event that's coming
up December one or the third, Portland,
456
00:35:15.960 --> 00:35:21.280
Oregon, the second National Interdisciplinary Cannabis
Symposium. What can you tell me
457
00:35:21.280 --> 00:35:23.719
about that? And how I see
the Cannabis Law Report as a partner in
458
00:35:23.719 --> 00:35:28.079
this. What can you tell you
about this coming up? Yeah, this
459
00:35:28.159 --> 00:35:36.719
is a sympos andustraight conference founded by
a retired judge based in Brooklyn. Sorry,
460
00:35:36.760 --> 00:35:39.519
she was originally from Brooklyn. She's
based in Denver, now called Mary
461
00:35:39.679 --> 00:35:45.079
Celeste. And she worked in the
courts in federal courts as a judge in
462
00:35:46.280 --> 00:35:52.440
Colorado for many years. She is
very well connected in that world and saw
463
00:35:52.480 --> 00:36:01.000
that there wasn't a great deal of
knowledge amongst people in the courts about the
464
00:36:01.039 --> 00:36:07.199
cannabis world. And you know,
and if federal, if and when federal
465
00:36:07.199 --> 00:36:10.920
comes along, unless that knowledge base
is increased, is going to c in
466
00:36:10.960 --> 00:36:15.480
the way that say the immigration courts
are being clogged up at the moment.
467
00:36:15.800 --> 00:36:21.880
So you know, she launched the
first one at the Southern California Law School
468
00:36:22.679 --> 00:36:27.639
University Law School last year because that's
where she went to law school, and
469
00:36:27.719 --> 00:36:35.000
then her former partner, Judge from
Graham, Judge Torres, said, look,
470
00:36:35.079 --> 00:36:37.639
he just didn't have the time to
do it this year, and I
471
00:36:37.719 --> 00:36:40.559
worked with her a bit last year. So I'm actually we're a double act.
472
00:36:42.199 --> 00:36:45.760
She's the founder, I'm the organizer, and we're putting on the second
473
00:36:45.840 --> 00:36:50.519
one this year at Portland State University, as say in PDX, Oregon,
474
00:36:50.880 --> 00:36:54.840
from the first to the third,
and the idea is essentially most, well
475
00:36:54.960 --> 00:37:01.639
not most, all legal discussions in
cannabis at conference are attached to business conferences
476
00:37:01.880 --> 00:37:07.440
and basically discuss law and business.
In this conference, for the first time,
477
00:37:07.519 --> 00:37:12.639
we've got the American Bar Association,
the American Judges Association, and the
478
00:37:12.760 --> 00:37:17.719
National Judicial College, amongst other partners, all together under one umbrella. And
479
00:37:17.760 --> 00:37:22.599
that I can assure you that's an
absolute rarity to get them under one umbrella
480
00:37:22.639 --> 00:37:27.440
on any topic, but to get
them under one umbrella on cannabis is nigh
481
00:37:27.480 --> 00:37:31.519
on a miracle, and it has
caused a few headaches along the way,
482
00:37:31.519 --> 00:37:35.719
but we've managed to do it and
we're trying. Yeah. Essentially, the
483
00:37:35.800 --> 00:37:42.519
idea is to bring in the best
people that are across a number of topics,
484
00:37:42.559 --> 00:37:47.599
anything from d UI to legal information
to diversity, you name the topic.
485
00:37:47.679 --> 00:37:52.480
We're covering it over the two days. And I know it's your ex
486
00:37:52.599 --> 00:37:54.559
you on the second day of panels, you're going to be moderating cannabis stgle
487
00:37:54.559 --> 00:37:59.400
information. I see, well,
that's right, because there is none.
488
00:38:00.000 --> 00:38:01.199
I also need to notice that one
of the people on the panels, David
489
00:38:01.199 --> 00:38:04.880
cy Hallan who I've actually got a
chance to interview as well, and I
490
00:38:04.920 --> 00:38:07.320
saw sherm Early Prowl, is gonna
be speaking of the event. It's quite
491
00:38:07.920 --> 00:38:12.360
a listing of people you have that
are being part of this event. And
492
00:38:12.639 --> 00:38:14.480
you know, at some point I'd
love to get some of those folks over
493
00:38:14.480 --> 00:38:16.239
at Cannabis Radio to go and talk
about We've even managed to get Bloomin out
494
00:38:16.400 --> 00:38:22.000
on which is very nice. Indeed, and he you know, we only
495
00:38:22.039 --> 00:38:23.400
asked once and he said yes.
We didn't even have to chase him.
496
00:38:23.440 --> 00:38:32.960
Wow. So these people understand that
unless we educate government departments, legislatives,
497
00:38:32.960 --> 00:38:39.480
policy makers, and the judiciary.
Nothing is going to happen if Washington consigns
498
00:38:39.519 --> 00:38:45.559
as many pieces of paper as they
like. But unless federal government and state
499
00:38:45.599 --> 00:38:52.280
government is better educated on these topics
and better understands them and is creating policy
500
00:38:52.320 --> 00:39:00.639
papers and educational materials now for their
departments, it's going to be absolute chaos.
501
00:39:00.800 --> 00:39:05.480
So what we're trying to do is
do two things. Take the work,
502
00:39:05.559 --> 00:39:08.039
take business out of cannabis and law
for a little bit, right,
503
00:39:08.320 --> 00:39:15.199
and we're and try and talk about
the public sector and how they now need
504
00:39:15.440 --> 00:39:21.599
to get a better grip on cannabis. Uh. And the reaction. We're
505
00:39:21.639 --> 00:39:23.760
small, we don't have a huge
marketing budget, but you know, in
506
00:39:23.840 --> 00:39:28.559
terms of the speakers, we've got
a fantastic reaction. It would be lovely
507
00:39:28.639 --> 00:39:31.920
to get some more people coming along
or being virtual attendees. Of course,
508
00:39:31.960 --> 00:39:37.000
you know we clash. We're just
two days after MJ beers were at the
509
00:39:37.039 --> 00:39:44.400
same time as the as CAMERA which
is their regulators Association normal holding a conference
510
00:39:44.519 --> 00:39:47.320
and on the following week as well. I mean, it's a very busy
511
00:39:47.440 --> 00:39:52.920
calendar and we're sort of new boys
on the new boys and girls on the
512
00:39:52.960 --> 00:39:54.519
block, so to speak. But
I think you know what we're doing,
513
00:39:57.360 --> 00:40:01.559
people are noticing, and we're seeing
year one and year two we're starting something
514
00:40:01.599 --> 00:40:05.920
new and we're hoping by year you
know, year three, year four,
515
00:40:06.280 --> 00:40:15.119
people will really understand the value to
them in the industry of making these connections
516
00:40:15.119 --> 00:40:21.199
within state and federal government and especially
within the judiciary, so that they have
517
00:40:21.280 --> 00:40:25.239
a better understand because look, the
judiciary generally peopled by people over the age
518
00:40:25.280 --> 00:40:30.920
of fifty. Very conservative, not
conservative in you know, the crazy gop
519
00:40:31.119 --> 00:40:36.360
conservative word at the moment, but
conservative in the old fashioned, you know,
520
00:40:36.880 --> 00:40:39.599
middle of the row conservative will listen
to an argument and decide one way
521
00:40:39.679 --> 00:40:44.039
or the other. That's their job, and this is this is what they
522
00:40:44.039 --> 00:40:47.679
want to hear. They want we're
presenting in a way as it's almost as
523
00:40:47.679 --> 00:40:53.079
though they're in court when they hear
our presentations. It's pros cons and an
524
00:40:53.119 --> 00:40:59.639
expert witness. So they're hearing,
you know, the good, the bad,
525
00:41:00.039 --> 00:41:02.199
and what the expert witnesses have to
say, and then they can make
526
00:41:02.719 --> 00:41:08.880
their decisions on what they need to
do internally with regard to the information that
527
00:41:08.920 --> 00:41:13.639
they've been presented with. So we're
quite all fashioned in the way that we're
528
00:41:13.679 --> 00:41:16.519
doing things. But I think if
you're not, you're not going to bring
529
00:41:16.559 --> 00:41:21.360
these people on board. And you
know, this is one thing I'm still
530
00:41:21.400 --> 00:41:25.039
having difficulty with the industry per se, is understanding how important this is,
531
00:41:25.280 --> 00:41:30.239
because obviously everybody has. You know, if you're working in a company,
532
00:41:30.480 --> 00:41:32.360
you've got the bank to worry you
about. You've got, as we discussed
533
00:41:32.360 --> 00:41:36.119
at the very beginning, we've got
the tax office to worry about. We've
534
00:41:36.159 --> 00:41:38.159
got the people who have lent you
money to worry about, we've got the
535
00:41:38.199 --> 00:41:43.199
tech to worry about. But you
know, all these things are important running
536
00:41:43.199 --> 00:41:46.079
your day to day business. But
essentially everything changes when federal comes along.
537
00:41:46.360 --> 00:41:53.440
Everything changes again. And if those
people who have been charged with managing this
538
00:41:53.559 --> 00:42:00.519
stuff don't understand where, we're back
to twenty fifteen again basically, and then
539
00:42:00.559 --> 00:42:02.719
that's another thirty year, you know, and it's a much bigger problem,
540
00:42:02.880 --> 00:42:07.599
much bigger bowl of soup second time
round than it is the first time round.
541
00:42:07.800 --> 00:42:12.320
And you combine the state bowl of
soups, you know, fifty bowls
542
00:42:12.320 --> 00:42:17.239
of soup then a huge bowl of
soup, it's going to get pretty mixed
543
00:42:17.280 --> 00:42:22.199
up. So it's all you know, it's not the economy stupid. It's
544
00:42:22.480 --> 00:42:28.639
education stupid basically, and I appreciate
you put all these people together from their
545
00:42:28.679 --> 00:42:32.000
podcast with Cannabis Law Report on what
you're reporting there, and from all the
546
00:42:32.039 --> 00:42:35.880
resources that you put together. So
there's you know, first of all,
547
00:42:35.920 --> 00:42:39.760
the Cannabisall Report as a regular you
know daily go there, Cannabis Law Dot
548
00:42:39.840 --> 00:42:44.639
Report. You have Cannabis Law Journal, you have various directories, the Cannabi
549
00:42:44.760 --> 00:42:50.760
Global Top two hundred Cannabis Lawyers,
and another directory is the Global Top two
550
00:42:50.840 --> 00:42:54.320
hundred Cannabis Lawyers and policy Makers Directory. I want to just ask one more
551
00:42:54.360 --> 00:42:58.719
thing before you get running, and
I wish we had more time. I
552
00:42:58.760 --> 00:43:00.920
mean, there's a lot more I'm
sure you can talk about when it comes
553
00:43:00.960 --> 00:43:04.880
to your work in legal book selling, publishing, working at Lexis Nexus in
554
00:43:04.920 --> 00:43:07.480
the Legal five hundred. But I
want to ask you this last question about
555
00:43:07.519 --> 00:43:13.320
where the legal space is when it
comes to cannabis. That now psychedelics is
556
00:43:13.360 --> 00:43:15.800
brought into the space and there are
quite a few companies we've seen at the
557
00:43:16.800 --> 00:43:23.960
When our Cannabis Radio crew went to
the MAPS conference Psychedelic Science, they had
558
00:43:24.079 --> 00:43:28.880
seen a lot of cannabis related folks
there, even Rolling Stone and I figured
559
00:43:28.920 --> 00:43:31.039
it was Vice or which other publications
talked about it. But they went to
560
00:43:31.079 --> 00:43:37.239
the event and they saw this intersectionality
of cannabis and psychedelics coming into space because
561
00:43:37.239 --> 00:43:40.039
they're kind of parallel in terms of
their trajectory and the coming of the space
562
00:43:40.079 --> 00:43:45.519
to help as plant medicine. What
do you see from those that you're speaking
563
00:43:45.519 --> 00:43:49.840
with about how many of them are
embedding themselves, are now including psychedelics into
564
00:43:49.920 --> 00:43:55.400
their workload and those that are,
you know, their enthusiasm about psychedels coming
565
00:43:55.440 --> 00:44:01.360
into space possibly being legalized before cannabis
does. Yeah, well in terms of
566
00:44:01.360 --> 00:44:05.639
the law, A lot of them
basically, so if you're a small and
567
00:44:05.679 --> 00:44:09.320
medium sized law firm that specialized in
cannabis, you are now specializing in psychedelics.
568
00:44:09.440 --> 00:44:14.840
Some of them have gone completely psychedelics. So some of them were like
569
00:44:14.880 --> 00:44:19.239
a company, like a lot of
like a Merge for example, entirely psychedelics
570
00:44:19.440 --> 00:44:23.960
now, but a lot of the
other sme firms would say between thirty and
571
00:44:24.000 --> 00:44:30.960
fifty lawyers or ten and forty lawyers, they are all including psychedelics in their
572
00:44:31.639 --> 00:44:37.840
offerings. And that's all sort of
been this year. It's going to be
573
00:44:37.840 --> 00:44:43.280
interesting literally post this week after well
post yesterday after the Newsom saying he's not
574
00:44:43.320 --> 00:44:47.119
going to sign that bill until they
come back to them with new stuff next
575
00:44:47.199 --> 00:44:51.400
year, because I think they were
all gearing up for a lot of business
576
00:44:51.480 --> 00:44:55.320
in California opening up by Christmas or
early next year, so it might put
577
00:44:55.320 --> 00:45:00.039
a slight stop on it. But
essentially you're going to see, uh,
578
00:45:00.679 --> 00:45:07.559
you're already seeing a lot of independent
operators, you know, solo lawyers doing
579
00:45:07.639 --> 00:45:14.400
it. A few just concentrating entirely
on psychedelics, and I would imagine that's
580
00:45:14.440 --> 00:45:19.719
mainly because they've got some big pharmaceutical
clients and then a range of them with
581
00:45:19.840 --> 00:45:24.480
a mix of clients that are government
based as government tries to bring in legislation
582
00:45:25.039 --> 00:45:31.199
in each of the states or some
sort of regulation one way or the other.
583
00:45:32.360 --> 00:45:42.320
I wouldn't be surprised if Newsome signs
something that comes back to him next
584
00:45:42.400 --> 00:45:45.880
year where you don't start seeing some
of the bigger law firms, you know,
585
00:45:46.079 --> 00:45:50.960
the big white shoe law firms.
Also some of them are already doing
586
00:45:51.039 --> 00:45:53.280
deals, but quietly. This is
how they started in cannabis. They did
587
00:45:53.280 --> 00:45:57.079
a bunch of deals. They never
told anybody with what they're doing, just
588
00:45:57.159 --> 00:46:00.920
all it's all you know in there, and then they started marketing out their
589
00:46:00.960 --> 00:46:05.840
skills once they did the first sets
of deals, and I think you'll probably
590
00:46:05.880 --> 00:46:10.679
start seeing that later next year.
So I'm my policy Makers Directory is actually
591
00:46:10.719 --> 00:46:15.599
Psychedelic Lawyers Policy Directory. I started
it two years ago. The third edition
592
00:46:15.599 --> 00:46:20.320
will be published on the first of
January. And you know, when I
593
00:46:20.360 --> 00:46:24.039
first did it, I could literally
couldn't find two hundred psychedelic lawyers or policy
594
00:46:24.079 --> 00:46:30.559
makers around the world, never mind
in the US. Now now I'm going
595
00:46:30.599 --> 00:46:34.400
to be sport for choice in terms
of editorial choice. Who I choose.
596
00:46:34.480 --> 00:46:37.519
It's the same when I started the
cannabis one. I started it with maybe
597
00:46:37.880 --> 00:46:42.280
you know, I chose two hundred
out of maybe five hundred, right,
598
00:46:43.280 --> 00:46:45.760
No, what difference a couple years
of makes, exactly. I want to
599
00:46:45.800 --> 00:46:49.519
just make one more point and go
on top of the symposium to want to
600
00:46:49.519 --> 00:46:52.480
just make sure that for those who
get a chance to catch this episode before
601
00:46:52.519 --> 00:46:55.199
it's December first, thor third,
and I saw that the registration it's available,
602
00:46:55.239 --> 00:46:59.760
like you said, it's in person
or you can actually get there virtually.
603
00:46:59.800 --> 00:47:04.599
And also students recommended and definitely encouraged
to go ahead and go look at
604
00:47:04.599 --> 00:47:07.639
the event and registry. It's only
sixty bucks fifties of dollars just to go
605
00:47:07.639 --> 00:47:09.719
ahead and watch all the events going
on. If you're a student and you
606
00:47:09.760 --> 00:47:12.920
want to go ahead and watch this, or if you're a part of other
607
00:47:13.039 --> 00:47:16.199
organizations, there's virtual as well available
so for those that want to go ahead
608
00:47:16.239 --> 00:47:22.199
and be able to catch all these
events. The website is National Interdisciplinary Cannabis
609
00:47:22.199 --> 00:47:30.480
Symposium dot com all one word,
National Interdisciplinary Cannabis Symposium dot com. Again
610
00:47:30.559 --> 00:47:35.000
we mentioned Cannabis dot Report and of
course that's where you can find the Karma
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00:47:35.280 --> 00:47:38.599
Koala podcast. You can find it
there Cannabis Law dot Report and look for
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00:47:38.639 --> 00:47:42.039
that. And when they go to
the website, where do they find it
613
00:47:42.079 --> 00:47:46.519
from the start of the website.
In terms of the in terms of the
614
00:47:46.519 --> 00:47:53.119
simpose podcast the podcast, just skim
down, skim down the side of bit
615
00:47:53.159 --> 00:47:58.320
and you'll see a column dedicated to
it. All simplest thing. If you're
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00:47:58.320 --> 00:48:04.000
a Spotify user, just go to
Sdify Pumping Karma Koala Pumping Podcast and hey,
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00:48:04.039 --> 00:48:07.679
presto, you're there. You've got
one hundred and ten odd episodes to
618
00:48:07.719 --> 00:48:12.360
listen to, and there's a nice
green banner a nice sized green banner right
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00:48:12.400 --> 00:48:15.079
there on the front page of Cannabis
Laughter Report. Everything you can find right
620
00:48:15.119 --> 00:48:17.960
there. Sewn Hawking, thank you
again for being on with us. I
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00:48:19.000 --> 00:48:22.000
really appreciate you taking time out and
sharing your story with us and telling us
622
00:48:22.000 --> 00:48:23.599
about the podcast and again he gus
he has to delve into some of the
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00:48:23.639 --> 00:48:30.280
legal issues and being able to go
ahead and bring scholars, lawyers, judges
624
00:48:30.559 --> 00:48:32.960
and so many other people in the
legal space on board. Really appreciate it.
625
00:48:34.719 --> 00:48:37.239
Now, thank you very much for
having me on the show, being
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00:48:37.280 --> 00:48:40.079
a pleasure at my pleasure. I
really do appreciate you taking time out.
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00:48:40.119 --> 00:48:45.639
What a great conversation again with Seawn
Hawking and folks, I really appreciate all
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00:48:45.639 --> 00:48:51.000
of you catching into the podcasters row
as always kingopodcasts dot com. All my
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00:48:51.039 --> 00:48:53.679
past interviews are there, including this
one, and come back to the next
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00:48:53.719 --> 00:49:02.440
Podcaster's row. We'll talk to you
next time. Fast Fact