Hellraiser (2022)

Pleasers & Punishers Podcast: You seem uncomfortable. Do it make you nervous? Gorky, corky, girky. No, no, no. There's Curious maybe. That's funny. I'm feeling a little bit curious myself. What is it you pray for? Salvation? And what would it feel like? A joyful note without change, without end? Heaven? There's no music in that. ⁓ but this there is so much more the body can be made to feel, and you'll feel it all before we're through. Welcome to pleasers and punishers. Where we talk about movies that people love to watch. Movies that ruin your today, tomorrow, and yesterday. And all things kinky and queer. I'm Caitlin of the North. I'm May the Sovereignty of Anguish Schultz. And I'm Amanda Jane Stern choosing the life of regret option? Well, I guess we know your answer for later in the episode. We what regret That's my first synopsis question. And today we're discussing how you're so tortured when you sleep, you're plagued by all your memories, you reach out and nobody's there, like a god, without a prayer. As we finish up Julia, Joey John and Jamie June with Hellraiser from twenty twenty two, directed by David Bruckner, written by Ben Collins and Luke Petrowski from a screen story, co-written by David S. Goyer. Sorry, no Dessa Zion. Adam Faison, Drew Starkey, Brandon Flynn, Eva Hines, Gorin Vichknik, and Jamie Clayton. Music by Ben Love It! But before we get started, some quick housekeeping. We have officially launched a Patreon, and you can find it at patreon.com slash podcastperverts. We have four tiers. There's the Petite Pervert tier, which is only a dollar and gets you access to our Discord and our newsletter. Medium Masochist, which gets you access to monthly mini episodes and interviews. Horny Harpy, which gets you access to two bonus full-length episodes a month. And Lingerie Lover, which gets you access to monthly live streams where we're going to be watching erotic films and maybe even some porn parodies. In our undies for your viewing pleasure. We are very excited about this. We've joked about it in episodes before, but we are actually making it happen. And we're just gonna go ahead and tell y'all that for July, our mini episode is going to be on season one, episode one of Slasher. I'm really excited to talk about this because I'm a big fan of the first season of that show. And then our full-length episodes are going to be on obsession. And pretty lethal. So those should be really fun. So again, that's patreon.com slash podcast perverts. And now, let's bring in our chosen sacrifice. I mean guest. She is a comic book writer, art producer, and podcaster with a passion for trans narratives and a lifelong love of superheroes and monster movies. Please welcome Tommy Trumbath. Woo! Hello, thank you for having me. Of course. Thank you for joining us. I was so excited when you reached out. Yeah, no, I'm a big fan of horror movie podcasts. I'm a bit of a regular on Progressively Horrified. ⁓ so when I saw we're gonna be talking about the Trans Hellraiser movie, I had to do something to be on that one. Well, we're glad you're here. And ⁓ tell me, if you could make a legacy sequel to any horror movie or franchise, what would you choose? ⁓ I've thought about this a lot and a I had a lot of small things come to mind, mostly things that I'm like, this needs a legacy sequel just so people can appreciate the original. But if there's one that I'm like, there's more to be said here and like I think the there's an audience for this and that's Robocop. Hell yeah. Yes. Because that Robocop remake that they did like ten, fifteen years ago, not good. And still like the second best Robocop movie. That's sad. So like I feel like there's so much you can say about like modern police violence with it. Maybe we use a different Robocop. Maybe it's a victim of police violence that's the Robocop this time. Maybe we find out Alex Murphy was part of the sixty percent of cops or whatever. And maybe it was the robot parts that made him not suck as a cop. I there's there's so much to be explored, so much to be said, and like I I'm not gonna make that movie, but I would gladly make a Robocop comic because no one gives a shit about RoboCop comics. If I suck, it doesn't matter. No one's gonna care. So would you call it Robocomic? I'm sorry, that was terrible. Who's who's your ideal director for that project? ⁓ sh ⁓ is Paul Verhoven still alive? Yes. He just teached Benajetta a few years ago. Mm-hmm. He did what? Which ⁓ which we covered back in November. Yes. Yeah, no just bring him back. I I don't think anyone can get it quite as right as he can. Can we establish that Joe Estherhouse cannot write the script though? Correct. Especially modern Joe Estherhouse who is. Joe Estherhouse is the same as old Joe Esther House. He's just been trapped. Yeah. Yeah. That's true. Okay, Joe Estherhouse has never Met a vagina that he knows how to pleasure, so That is very true. Yes, it is. I have a lot of thoughts about Joe Esther House, okay? I'm an erotic thriller, girly, so maybe maybe we'll watch some of those on our lingerie lovers episodes. So Amanda, what's your pick for this? Okay. Tommy, I love how you just had something really deep and insightful, and I'm gonna go with something really horny. May, Caitlin, you might know where I'm going because we've had this chat several times, but Wishmaster. Hell, yes. I thought about Wishmaster as my choice. I love that first one. So tell me, in our in our private WhatsApp, I have an ongoing thread about how thirsty I am for the Wishmaster and how to get the Wishmaster to sleep with me without using a Wish. To be honest, I don't think it would be that hard. I mean, we've established that you're a hundred percent certified babe. So this is my movie premise. Mm-hmm. How to seduce the wishmaster. And who's your ideal director for that project? Hmm. Who directed the Aladdin reboot, the live-action one? Guy Ritchie. Not him. ⁓ no, it's gotta be a horny lady, but not Emerald Finel. Do you do you want my suggestion? Yeah. Nia DaCosta. That would work. I I I think she could pull it off really well. Or you know what? Let's go a different way. Greg Araki. Yes! yes. Greg Araki presents Wishmaster, a heterosexual film. We're actually showing nowhere tonight at my local theater and I'm I think just the whole like Iraqi like weekend or like June, is this a pride thing? Since you also said that Mysterious Skin is gonna be playing. Is this two different theaters? Yeah, Mysterious Skin is playing tomorrow at a different theater. ⁓ Must be a fur pride. Alright, Caitlin, what's your pick? Mysterious skin fur pride. I guess this isn't so much of a well, maybe. This is a movie that doesn't have any sequels and I was just I was gonna go for something else, but then I really quickly changed my mind. And maybe it's just I want a sequel to Atomic Blonde would be Hell yes. Yes. I love that movie. It has been my personality since it came out and ⁓ would would do legacy sequel. Would watch Charlie's back. Would it still be a legacy sequel at this point? I mean it's not too old, it's just a sequel. Ten years. ⁓ my god. I can't say it's been ten years. Sorry. I'm pretty sure it's been ten years. I feel old. Anyway, same director as the first film. Yes, he is still doing things and is I I think he did a tremendous job with that movie. ⁓ excuse me. Nine years. So we're getting there. Close. Very close. Almost the same. Yeah. So my pick is maybe a little obvious, but Sleepaway can't. I want BJ and Harmony Colangelo to write it ⁓ and Karen Kusama to direct it. That's that's my pick. I think now it's time to get into some role play. Is that your bathing suit? Is that your overbite? Now one of you will be the drowning victim and the other one gets to be our lifesaver. I'll be the victim all your life. You know what else is fun? Yeah, that should have been my transition. Transition goals. Jesus Christ. ⁓ wow Teachers? Yes. It's been a long day. In Belgrade, Serbia, Serena Maneker purchases something from a man for an extremely large sum of money. Cut to a mansion in the Berkshires in Massachusetts, where adorable sex worker Joey is sent to meet Serena's employer, Roland Voigt, during a very sexy party. He solves the last configuration of the puzzle box, unleashing its signature chains. As Joey is torn apart in the background, Voigt welcomes the arrival of the Leviathan. Goodbye, cheekbones. We'll miss you. He was adorable. He's so cute. I did not get to watch the whole commentary track with David Bruckner. I only got a little bit into it, but the way he talked about just this actor who plays this very small part was He was just like so happy about it and so comfortable with the fact that the character's queer and there's like an orgy going on at this house. He was just like really chill and and I appreciated that and, you know, used the the proper language and referred to him as a sex worker and wasn't like, isn't it funny that he's gay? It it's just nice to have a director who's a white dude, ⁓ presumably straight white dude, not be like that. Yeah, I I don't know what his sexual orientation is. Did I look it up? Yes. I I mean I'm a big Bruckner fan, so I I love the ritual. I really love the ritual. How many twinks do you think they had to go through that couldn't figure out the puzzle box? That's what I'm very liking. How many twinks does it take to solve a puzzle box? ⁓ my god. Surely some came and were like, the fuck is this? And just didn't I'm going back to the orgy. I don't remember. It was the same night. It was different twinks coming in, like, couldn't do anything until this twink could do it. I love that. I love that idea. Ugh. Six years later, Trevor tells Riley that he loves her in the middle of sex. What the fuck is this? Is this just a trick us? Look, Trevor is kinda cute. He's got a really nice butt. But he's an idiot. Yes. And Riley is way too hot for him. He's the guy in queer, yeah? Yes. I haven't seen it. ⁓ I So okay, I enjoyed Queer a lot. I like it more than the Call Me by Your Name movie. I like the score. But it there's a lot of imagery that he's pulling very clearly from Kirill, and I just think that is a stronger movie because I really love it. I've still never seen it. Okay, well that is something we will have to I'm still not sure what you just said. What did you say? Quarrel. ⁓ properly fresh. my god, I was saying it was like Quarrel. I don't know what movie you're talking about right now. Got it, got it, got it. Quirrel. Okay, so Riley's brother Matt, Matt's boyfriend Colin, and their roommate Nora all meet Trevor, who awkwardly departs, and they all admit they could hear the two of them fucking. Matt doesn't want Riley involved with Trevor because they met in a twelve step program. When you are going through recovery, they do say please don't start any new relationship. You're in a very vulnerable place right now. Yeah, it's true. And you know, it can lead to people relapsing together, exploiting each other, and it's unfortunate. But also twelve step programs are very problematic. Yeah. I I believe we've talked about this before. But also the the higher power part of a that's yep. My God who does not exist. Angel to some, demon to others. Yeah, it really sucks that there aren't programs that aren't based in that sort of ideology. Yeah. Yeah, it really does. I've heard tales of the kind of guys that will hit on you in a twelve step program, so like this this kind of checks out. Yeah. In Trevor's incredible loft department, and and reminder, this was filmed in Belgrade, but it takes place mostly in Massachusetts and Boston specifically. Not cheap. No. That loft department in Boston, even four years ago, would probably be 3k a month, maybe more. ⁓ no, that's much more than 3k a month. Okay. I mean it's pretty fucking big. It's got exposed brick. I mean, no spoilers, but we do know he has a financial benefactor. A daddy. That is true. That should have been a red flag for Riley. Like you don't make that kind of money delivering all that. That should have been a lot of red flags for Riley. We're going to be honest. So in his incredible loft apartment, he tells Riley about a potential score stealing something from an abandoned storage space. In said storage space they enter a shipping crate, break open a safe, and find a wooden box inside, which contains the Lament configuration puzzle box. Nicely redesigned for this movie. I actually really love this redesign. I almost got it tattooed on me, but I did end up going with the original box for my tramp stamp. Love an original box too. I just always love telling people about my built in bit with the tattoo that if anyone ever tops me and either of us come, I can say, You opened the box, we came. Riley gets home clearly intoxicated and Matt angrily kicks her out. She relapses by taking some pills off of the dirty, wet ground, and yes, I understand she's an addict dealing with this, but my OCD wouldn't like my OCD would override the addiction. You wanna eat Because I I could not pick this pills up. I had a friend one time walk he was walking down the street and And his contact lens popped out onto the ground and he had nothing to put it in, so he put it in his mouth. I think we're seeing Fury Road that night. Yep. And just kept it in Fury Road. I'm always so afraid if I'm if I like drop my birth control pill, that's always a fear. Like if I'm walking my dog and it's the time to take that pill, like there is no other option. I have to take this one or else I'm fucking up my timeline. Mm-hmm. Yeah, that's that's kind of scary. Tastes delightful like dirt. So Riley Riley then heads to a nearby park where she solves the first iteration of the box. A blade emerges but fails to cut her, and the cenobites show up to demand that she mark a sacrifice. Matt finds her passed out on w what are those things called? Whirly gig or something like that? I almost said a Ferris wheel. Merry-Go-Round, yes. Merry-Go-Round. No. Merry-Go Round has like the horsies and stuff on it. No, that's No, it's a carousel. I always thought they were interchangeable. No, I always Huh. Okay. Well we'll call it a Merry-Go Round. It's tough thing. ⁓ so yes, Matt finds Riley passed out on the merry-go-round and immediately cuts his hand on the box's blade. As it absorbs his blood and transforms itself, Matt glimpses a portal to hell and Riley hears him scream. But when she enters the restroom, he's gone. Boy, does he scream, huh? That screaming. I don't know why is so like ⁓ I think because I had looked down at one point, I was like, ⁓ I thought Riley was screaming and I looked back up and I was like, ⁓ nope, I am incorrect. That is, he is so greaming. Love it. The next day, Riley heads back to Trevor's where he and his beautiful bubble butt are taking a shower. They start to have sex but stop when she sees the chatterer. So she tells Trevor about what happened, and they visit Serena at the hospice facility where she is dying of lung cancer. Riley and Serena fight over the box and in the process solve that configuration. Right into the blood hole. The blood in the blood hole. Riley and Trevor depart in a hurry. The facility begins to transform around Serena and the Cenobites appear to take her with them. This is one of my favorite scenes in the movie. And the transformation of all the walls and stuff, other than like the whole UC down into the labyrinth, that's all practical. Those are moving walls and lighting and various other things that they use to make that happen. And it is fucking phenomenal. How do we feel about the I don't know, kinda fretti Kruegerness of this iteration of the Cenobites, of like now it's only the victims, like hallucination rather than something changing the world around them. I definitely have a question that's about the change in mythology about the ⁓ w change in victimology for these centibytes versus the old Hellraiser movies. So Okay, so we'll we'll save that for later. Okay. But I I do I love this. I love the dialogue that the gasp has when she says save your breath for screaming. I just fucking love the gasp. ⁓ my gosh. She's incredible. And I particularly love that she plucks out one of the pearls that looks like it has a tiny bit of rock candy on it from the weepers' eye and then makes Serena swallow it. Absolutely incredible. I could not I I could go on probably for hours just on the design of the centipytes here because I find it so fantastic. Okay. But we'll talk about it more later. Trust me, I want to talk about it too. I'm really excited. Back at Trevor's, Riley researches Roland Voigt and finds a series of crimes linked to the man, including the disappearances of six people who were considered quote unquote disposable by society. Trevor tries to get rid of the box, so Riley heads to Voigt's estate alone and finds it encased in an intricate metal framework. She finds a way inside through a gap that my ass and tits could never fit through and begins to explore. Everything is controlled by switches, including the house's metal enclosure and a series of internal gates. In Voigt's office, she finds sketches of the Cenobites and research about the box and its six configurations. Riley follows Matt's voice and finds him in the basement, then sees his fleshless reflection in the mirror before he disappears just as Colin, Nora, and Trevor arrive. Riley lays out her plan to Colin, Trevor gets drunk in the bathroom, and Nora finds a secret passage where she is attacked and stabbed with the current configuration of the box. Which looks like a three dimensional star of David. At at least to me. That's that's what it is. I do have like what each of the box thingies look like. Box thingies Configurations look like. My goodness. Nora emerges in the showroom where Joey was killed at the beginning of the movie, and the four head out in Trevor's van. Can I call out quick before we get too far from the mansion how like the rest of the gang really just scooby doos their way into the mansion off screen, like They're on their little adventure, like investigating this guy, and they turn around, ⁓ our friends are here. Okay. Well, we did need some expendable characters, so thank you. Yeah. And then they split up like Scooby-Doo, and one of ⁓ gets drunk in the bathroom. Mike and Scooby-Doo. Interesting. Again, ⁓ Zoinks. Chinkies. ⁓ and this is also when portals begin to open in the road as they're driving away. And this is the origin of my Midwest contractor horror repair character. When I f watched this movie with my friend Charlotte a couple years ago. When we got to that part, just out of nowhere, I go. Now what you got here is your standard portal to hell. Now I can fix that up for ya, but you gotta remember this is a county road, so It's gonna require permits and ⁓ don't worry, I know a guy in the permits office, we can get that pushed through for ya. I can be out here with two three guys next weekend and ⁓ we'll get it done for you in about two three days. And we're also gonna gather up all those pesky centibytes for you. You don't want those guys wandering around causing havoc, taking bites out of ya, sending you to hell, you know? So ⁓ yeah, we'll we'll clean it up, spix ban two three days, no problem. And I still wanna like Do that character, but I really don't want to be on TikTok. I want that legacy sequel. How about that? What about that legacy sequel of those contractors? The cleanup crew. Every rich pervert knows about the box, seemingly, so surely like there's gotta be government agencies controlled by other rich perverts that know how to clean up these things. Yeah, I really want to know for ⁓ Riley and and Colin. How they're gonna explain everyone else being gone. Don't worry about it. Who bought this house? I have questions. So also quick side note, in the bit of the commentary that I watched when Bruckner was talking about Voigt's character, apparently he was partially inspired by Jeffrey Epstein. No, that tracks. Mm-hmm. That makes sense. The two of us that didn't make any verbal ⁓ acknowledgement of that, the looks on our faces which you all can't see yet, I think said a lot. Uh-huh. Yeah. I'm still pissed his name rhymes with Nolan Void. And always say first and last name so I hear it every time. ⁓ And and now I'm just thinking about Marge saying avoid the noid. I was gonna I was gonna say that it is Sorry, I cannot do Marge Simpson justice. I I I apologize, everyone. I one time was supposed to say null and void in a play and at least w there's only one performance, but I absolutely said volanoid. So you know ⁓ this has definitely come up on the show before. ⁓ ⁓ okay, so Nora is transported from the van into hell where the androgynous hell priest and their Cenobite compatriots suspend her from chains, torture her a bit, and rip off her skin, which sends a splash of blood flying into the van and causes them to crash. Riley has a conversation with the hell priest about how to proceed and finally gets cut by the box. Her blood is in their hands, so they can take her any time they want. But she has the option of marking two others to unlock the final configurations and receive her reward. I love that the Cinnabites are like, We love this messy bitch. Like we want we know she's a terrible roommate. She's always getting into fights and everyone's coming into creepy mansions after her. We need to follow this girl. Cool shit's gonna happen. Yeah, because I I think they know, and we'll we'll talk about this more later with the addiction storyline, but they know that she is messy and she is going to get other people hurt by this, which is a really sad and fucked up reality. And and the Cenobites are kind of smartly taking advantage of that from their perspective. While being pursued and attacked by the chatterer who takes a chunk out of Trevor's arm. Riley marks it by stabbing it with the box's blade, and it is ripped apart by chains. Chatterer looks so ready for it too. Like they just step back, arms out, like normal Tuesday night for the Cenobites. They're probably all ripping each other apart regularly, piecing them back together. Do you think there's some relief for the chatterer to be spared from this eternal existence? Or do you think they're sad about it? I think the hardest part is not being able to see where they're going as they walk as I've I like I don't feel like the centibytes really die. Or I feel like if a centibyte kills another centibite, they probably just like wake up in hell and they're like, Okay, I'll g y your turn next time. It's just like a topping bottoming kind of thing. Are you laughing at the topping bottoming quests? Okay. I was asked can a cinnabite die? That is, you know, that that is the question. ⁓ but can a cinnabite come? That's actually a really sad question. I don't know. Isn't that part of the torture? It's perpetual edging. ⁓ no, thank you. No, but that is why I did think it was Look, it's hard enough to come when you're trans, okay? I don't need that. Colin, Riley, and Trevor make their way back to the house and Riley seals it up with the metal enclosure. Voigt, who is burdened with a diabolical machine in his torso, comes out from the secret passage and we discover that Trevor has been working for him this whole time. The first time I watched this and that reveal happened, I literally yelled at my fucking television. You fuck. Because like, i if you haven't seen this before, Trevor just seems like kind of a himbo. And then this happens and you're like, ⁓ fuck you. Fuck you. To the ends of the earth, you piece of shit. He's an evil himbo. Again, why, why I love you. Why at the beginning? Right? Yeah. If like if you knew what you were gonna do here, why would you tell her you love her? That's there was no reason. Maybe he just really loves fucking her? I can think of a reason. Okay. If you're a big himbo guy with the sense of fragile pride, is it better to come too early or to just throw some emotional wreckage into the scene to like cover for it? So like ⁓ shit, I'm not gonna get her there. I I love you. Then it ends. You're only an emotional disappointment, not a physical disappointment. And as a himbo, he's very used to being an emotional disappointment. That's not good. I love this read, and I will never watch this movie the same ever again. I am so glad that you're on this episode, Toby. Do we think he was one of the twinks that couldn't figure out the puzzle box? Absolutely. So interesting. Why the Cenobites haven't come for him yet? Yeah. Too too dumb. I don't know if no, because Voigt asks him why he didn't open it. So I I think that maybe he was Voigt's twink and Voigt didn't didn't have him try to open it, but that they had a relationship and that's how Voigt was able to manipulate him. ⁓ I kinda like that read too. He was too stupid to open it. Voigt's tweak was too stupid to open it. Earlier on, does he seem to know like right where that top shelf alcohol is at his place? And like just immediately goes to town. There might be a little bit of familiarity with the house. Yeah, there's there's there's definitely trading some sexual favors going on here. Interesting. ⁓ my god, can you imagine trying to have sex while your nerves are literally being rotated and pulled? Do you think those ⁓ clock mechanisms work as sex toys? No. Not for Voigt, but maybe for for Trevor. Tie some beads to A new form of penetration. Amanda always loses it when I do my Doug Bradley Hell Priest voice. And I I did it at the beginning of our Hellraiser two, three, and four episodes. And it's great because she always has the first line after my intro. And like sometimes she just sits there giggling for a minute before she can say it and and I love it. It's one of my favorite things. My giggling has now been pointed out on multiple podcasts. It's incredible. It's part of why I love having you. So Riley plans to lure one of the Cenobites inside in order to market for sacrifice, but things go sideways. Voigt marks Colin and then outs Trevor as a traitor. He details his choice from six years ago, liminal or sensation, and orders Trevor to let the cenobites in. As the box, in its Leviathan configuration, releases blood upwards onto the skylight, the Leviathan itself descends from the clouds, and I love this shot because the house is surrounded by a maze, because the whole thing has essentially been transported to their realm. The same way that people were earlier when they were marked by the box and I just I love that visual flourish. The I know this is gonna be wild, but the blood trickling up the Lament configuration looks a little bit yummy, right? I mean you're talking to someone with a blood fetish. I I I would literally be up there suspended on the skylight with like my mouth open and letting it just get all over me and rubbing it in. My girlfriend made some real nice tomato soup to pair with some grilled cheese that same week and I'm like, What movie is it where there's porridge but under it is a layer of blood. ⁓ it's the Golden Child. With Eddie Murphy. No one else here has seen it. Never mind. I think I have seen it, but it was like I watched that movie over and over as a kid 'cause it was one of those movies that was like on HBO or Showtime all the time. ⁓ If you could make a legacy sequel to one of the golden child with Eddie Murphy. Beverly Hills Cop. Done. They already did that. They just did that. Well, it's terrible, so I'm making another one. Actually I don't know if it was terrible. I don't think I saw that. I saw the Coming to America one and I was so bummed out, so Hmm. Voigt reveals that he didn't build a fortress, but a cage, and demands the different gift. Riley grabs the box and releases the Cenobites, sadly, not realizing that one of them is about to claim Colin down in the quote unquote fuck dungeon. While she bargains and exchanges Trevor's life for Colin's, Voigt's machine is removed, and his body repairs itself in preparation for power. I love this. It's not As amazing as Frank's reconstitution in the original Hellraiser, but it's pretty fucking good. And I think this is a really great showcase of how well they used a fusion of both CGI and practical effects in the movie because it it just looks incredible to me. And it's really gross. Like, on more than just a pain level, I get why Roland is not happy with his gift. Like We've seen people get turned into centibytes plenty of times in these movies before, and they just put like fucking abacus in his chest or like a a cord of him or something. Yeah. And that's it like no this is nothing. Like at least pull my skin apart or something. Like this is just pain. Not in like a flashy way. This is lame pain. People will think I was in like some kind of I don't know, circus accident. Not that demons from hell did this. He was in an organ act. ⁓ it ⁓ is it is a little steam. And just edging the whole goddamn time. When other people get turned into centibites, they get brought down into the hell dimension. He's still just in his own home. Well, because he wasn't turned into a centibyte. That that was just his gift. His gift was an eternal sensation. You're welcome. Just edged the whole time. Well, it's almost like they gave him like a tickling sex toy, but put it in him so he doesn't get the effect of the tickling. Interesting. That's what I'm saying, edging the whole time. A giant claw breaks through the skylight, puncturing him immediately after he was just repaired, and lifting him upwards as Trevor is dragged down into hell. Fuck you, Trevor Fuck you, Trevor. Riley then chooses the lament configuration, a life of regret and mourning, and is able to walk away relatively unscathed with Colin, who definitely needs to go to the hospital. Inside the Leviathan, Voigt is mounted to a metal structure, peeled, and transformed into a Christ-like Cenobite. Jesus Wapped. Mmm, indeed. All right. Which configuration slash gift are you choosing? Can I just get the box sans demons? Can I just go home with it? Like I've got the box. I've got the ⁓ Stimmy flavor of ADHD. Like So maybe that's the lament configuration. That's just never changing it. Just keep it as it is. Or just like, hey, can you guys give me an exact copy of this without all the demons inside? Like I Yeah, no blades. The the blades like it's kinda like that don't wake daddy children's game. That kinda adds a bit of excitement to it. Like, ⁓ don't get stabbed by the scary Rubik's game. don't wake daddy hell priest. Yeah, what kind of daddy are we talking about? ⁓ okay. So Amanda, which which one are you choosing? I mean you s you said at the top of the episode that you're choosing Lomette. Yeah. No. So I'm guessing I'm gonna stick with it. Okay. No regrets ever. I've made my choices and I will live with them. I feel like I would choose knowledge and then be really bummed out about what happened next. Yeah. That is exactly my answer. I'm presuming that like someone must have chosen chosen knowledge and then made a bunch of fan art in some notebooks that Rowan Voigt got 'cause like someone had to see all these centibytes and live and write out all these configuration things. So Dan, you turn into the penis head from Hellboy. I don't want to turn into the penis head. I would turn into the penis head. Doctor Dickhead. Yeah, no, Caitlin, my my answer's the same as yours. Because it's like, yeah, gimme knowledge and then you get knowledge and a lot of it's really bad. Imaging everything. Yeah, I already have an issue forgetting certain things, so okay. Okay. The last line of dialogue from Colin is ⁓ like did you make the right choice or was your choice the right one? And you know the Looming qu or implied question is like, should she have chosen resurrection for her brother? This is the right one. This is the right one, right? Do we think like would he have just been a a meat suit like in the first couple of Hellraisers and then they'd have to kill a bunch of more puzzle twinks in the mansion to bring it back to life? Or I I think that's definitely possible, and I think the implication is that it wouldn't really be him that he would come back like without his soul or Come back evil in some way and and that's the catch with it. 'Cause all of them except Lament have a catch, presumably. Lament's just living your goddamn catch. She's got no skin. Mm-hmm. Same with Frank. So he'd probably come back like that and have to get a new skin suit. I do think the Hell Priest should've rubbed some ⁓ salt in the wound to be like There was no catch. We would have just brought him back, you idiot. You made the wrong choice. You stupid bitch. You ruined everything. I gotta stop quoting that. ⁓ it's it's quotable. It's quotable. I know, I just I know. Very mad that Rachel Bloom is a scientist. Anyway. Tell me, what was your first experience with this movie? ⁓ let's see. I watched it with ⁓ Nearby friend, my first year of transition was one of those hangouts where you're like, I don't know if this is a date or not, and like just kind of sussing out the vibe. And I don't think they had seen other Hellraisers, so felt a little weird. But this is like I think you might actually benefit by having no Hellraiser expectations going into this one. So good for her. I don't disagree with that. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Amanda, what about you? ⁓ this this was like your second watch, right? Yes, yes. This was my second watch. This was part of my doing all eleven Hellraiser movies. I have talked about how I feel about Hellraisers five through ten, which I do see are listed down below. So I'm I'm saving my diatribe for the fourth time for when we get there in the game and I wonder what it is. If you're asking plot points, I could tell you the plot points. Yeah, I did every single Hellraiser movie. I adore one and two. One is one of my f top all time favorite movies. I have a big soft spot for number four because I just think it's fun and and it it's kind of balls to the wall and I really like when a sequel just goes for it and does the wild things. Number four rules and it's like the only time a slasher going into space has actually been good. Yeah. Yeah, we we d ⁓ when you're hearing this, ⁓ it will have come out a week previous and we had a really great discussion on that one. And then I have a weird soft spot for number seven because it it almost it doesn't totally work, it's not great, but it is kind of getting back to the kinkiness and that's part of what I like about the Hellraiser universe. I I like the the sex and death, pain and pleasure threshold metaphor and the queer kinkiness, that's what speaks to me. So the fact that seven is kinda going back to that, I enjoy. So yeah, this was the second watch. I saw it not long after it came out. Caitlin? I was really excited for this coming out and it was a few months after Prey on Hulu. And I'll probably get into this later, but I had a friend, a like really great friend Who was working at the intellectual house down in the University of Washington, which is a long house. And he, because of COVID and everything, and because it was just released on streaming, was like, we have a projector. Why don't we show these movies? Not like paying for them or anything, but just inter like inviting people to come after hours, a few of us. And so I got to see this like on a projector screen. Lots of like, really really fun and I I mean when I first saw again the the the production design and particularly the way the centibytes were redone really just hit me in my like solar plexus like it transported me in a way that potentially the other movies hadn't just because of how How beautiful I thought the centibytes looked. And obviously, if you haven't looked at my Instagram where it is pinned at the top, when I did my Hell Priest look, it was heavily, mostly based off of this movie. Because I just again I think it is impeccable the way they look and the flame and the the way they use the flesh and So that was my first experience, which is and the the metal coins are yeah. I watched this my my first viewing was October tenth, twenty twenty two, so right after it came out. And today's watch was my eleventh time. If you've been listening to this podcast, if you listen to any of our Hellraiser coverage, you know that I absolutely love this movie. I did a whole album about this movie that I put out last year and you can get it on vinyl. Please buy it. I'm poor. And it's really good and it comes as a double LP and both records are different colors and they're gorgeous. And my friend Steven did amazing artwork for it and I'm really proud of the music on it. Anyway, it's really good. I fucking love this movie. It's Part of why I've watched it 11 times. The first time I watched it, I gave it four stars. The second time I watched it, it went up to four and a half. And then one of those watches, it went up to five stars. This is on par for me with the original Hellraiser and Hellbound. I think if you watch those two and this one, it makes an incredible trilogy. And I just I love what they did with this. I love that. It's different, but it still feels like it belongs in the same world with those earlier movies. And and that that's part of what makes it work really well for me. But I think we should discuss more of the film's context in our next section, Faith and Chance. I can't exist by myself because I'm afraid of myself, because I'm the maker of my own evil. Goodness is only some kind of reflection upon evil. That's all it is. Alrighty. What was happening in movies at the time? This was 2022. We are hot on the heels of the pandemic. So, not that much was coming out in theaters. It was superhero movies, superhero movies, also legacy sequels, but really big budget ones like Top Gun Maverick. Avatar two. I forgot this was the year that like Avatar Two came out. Well, I like to just re erase that whole thing from my memory. So as far as theaters, it's literally just that and superhero movies because yeah. So much got sat on because of the pandemic, so a lot of things that were supposed to get theatricals became just streamers. This was yeah, pre this as well. All should have been released in theaters. We're also in the age of the prestige horror adaptation for streamers. Specifically the Mike Flanagan universe over on Netflix with, you know, Hill House, Bly Manor, Midnight Mass, Flanagan universe. Flanagan. That's so fair. Flanneriverse again. I need to edit I need to edit Oculus for Nightlight, which I Just so happened to rewatch last week and it was Maeve's first time and she really liked it. As much as you can like that movie, which is an absolute punisher. I actually haven't watched it and I always ha I have I haven't watched it either. It's on my list 'cause I like Flanagan. ⁓ yeah. Flanagan can really channel like the horror of a bad trip or like an ego death. Like doing it well, midnight mass, the end of that, like My first time I was on Acid I got that exact same speech from some kind of mental guide. Does Oculus like reliving the same moments over and over again? Like that that movie is a bad trip and I think it's great. I'm not gonna watch it again, but I think it's great. I've watched it like five or six times. That is a big old blind spot. Caitlin, that is that's one of those movies for me that is like movies for you where you're like, this movie makes me feel bad. I'm gonna watch it. I love this. That's that's Oculus for me. See, that's been the night porter for Listen to previous episode. Obviously. Yes. Listen to me making them do fetish February just to talk night porter Hey, it was a great discussion. And yeah, not that much in theaters because of the pandemic. And I was just gonna go really quickly through these many, many configurations of the puzzle box, which because in two in Hellraiser Hellbound or Hellbound Hellraiser. Whichever way it goes, it is Hellrah Hellraiser too. Yes, Hellbound Hellraiser two. I hate that that is the only one that does that with its title. That's my biggest issue with Hellraiser too is the I mean I I still don't think Hellraiser is the right name for these movies, personally. All should have been Hellbound. One, two, three, four, eleven, twelve, fifty. Shark still looks fake. Shark. sorry, back to the future, T. And because in Hellbound Hellraiser 2. ⁓ Dr. Chennard has multiple puzzle boxes. And at the time I didn't say anything, I had a moment where was like, ⁓ shit, am I saving this for the wrong movie? I was like, how many puzzle boxes have there been? I don't know. However, these were very much ⁓ Hellraiser 2022. So thank you, Screen Rant. From your article, All Six Configuration of Hellraiser's 2022's puzzle box explained by Robert. I've definitely read this article. Wonderful. So we have Lament. This is really interesting, I think, that with the Lament configuration, because this is the original configuration. This is life. This is well, they're saying it's life, but this is the Le Machande. Le Machand configuration. Le Merchant. Do you want me though? Le Marchand, right? Would that be? ⁓ Marchand? Le Marchand. Le Marchand. Yeah. Configuration. Yes. ⁓ hooray. It would just be a le, not a lay. Because the French ⁓ Yep. It's not Spanish. ⁓ yep. Original configuration. And I I loved this quote, which is the cost of the lament configuration is That Riley will have to live with the choices she has made during her encounter with the Cenobites and the thought of what she could have done with her power. Which again that ended was just like ⁓ fuck you. I felt about like no. But also correct. ⁓ no. Again, I really feel like they had to lay it on thick to make her feel bad about this. Like we seen two of the gifts. One of ⁓ was just a big old hook through the chest, and the other was something worse through the chest. Like, what were you gonna put through her chest if she chose anything else? What could it be? ⁓ my god. Wait. You know what? I'll I'll wait until we get to the resurrection one. No right to to ⁓ so we have lore, knowledge, which again a lot of these weren't God into heavily. So this quote, presumably of the strange cosmology that is only hinted at by the existence of the Cenobites. It's an eight sided diamond on a cube. That's what that looks like, apparently. I love this one with the what Lauterant? Lauterant. Yeah. Laterant. Which I spelled wrong on my album. I spelled it with two A's instead of an I spelled it L-A-U-D-A-R-A-N-T instead of E-R-A-N-T, and I'm really mad at myself about it. So the track list is your own personal lament committing. Yeah, sure is. And it and especially 'cause David Bruckner has a copy of my record. And what ⁓ yeah. Our previous guest, Chelsea Stardust, is best friends with Bruckner's wife and I sent her a copy of my record and So you're saying we should try to get him on the podcast? I mean Maybe, I don't know. I think it'd be great. But what the hell am I doing here? You shouldn't have him on example. No, we should have him on an episode to not talk about his own movies. But talking about like the worst tellraiser, whichever y'all determine it. I haven't watched Yeah, we we we we know that Amanda's least favorite is nine. And five. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I like this one 'cause it just says two pyramids merging, which ⁓ no. Like if you choose that, what does that mean exactly? Are you gonna end up like the twins from Bloodline? Hmm. I'm I'm assuming that it would, yeah, probably fuse you with the person that you do. So the twins from Bloodline. Yeah. Yeah. Which ⁓ That doesn't seem so bad. All right. It's kinda rad. Yeah, it's great. I love that death in Bloodline. It's so it's so awesome. We have Liminal, which is Sensation, which are ⁓ Roland Voyt, which we know not to pick. Yeah. Yep. You know, I bet the Cenobites are kinda pissed after Backrooms came out, knowing like, ⁓ we could have done something like that for Liminal. We could have sent them into K-mart. We could have put like CDs in his head and had him have to live his life like that. ⁓ DJ C D Cenobite. This is dedicated to hedonistic sensation and takes the form of two intersecting trapezoid-like shapes. This is the one I said looks like the Star of David, but 3D. It's like if you combined the Star of David and a dreidel. Anyway. Whatever whichever one you're making out of clay is fine. A golem? Hmm. How do I- Not have the vigil on our schedule. I don't know. That's one of my favorites. I love I know you love that. Lazarus! Lazarus! Which is resurrection. I know that's very shocking to people very biblical. and this is a sloping rectangular prism. So my thought for this is if you choose to resurrect someone, like I said earlier. They're either going to come back as a shell of themselves, come back without a soul, come back evil, or what if it requires you to take their place in hell? What if it brings them back and then you are then dead or or at least being tortured by the Cenobites and their ilk? I think that would be a really appropriate twist for you know the monkey's paw aspect of these gifts. I mean, if we're gonna give this a biblical namesake, and I know they've wanted to do various like Hellraiser across time movies, can we see did Jesus accidentally make a Cenobite or did he resurrect Lazarus Lazarus and he came back as a Cenobite? Like ⁓ my god. Jesus versus Hellraiser. Yes. Jesus Jesus Hellraiser. Judas felt so bad about getting Jesus crucified and killed that he found the box And solved it and got six people killed so he could bring Jesus back. Track like you do. Because Judas was fucking gay and he was in love with Jesus. And that's why he betrayed him. I mean Toxic Yowie. Crossing over with maybe our most toxic religion, like this franchise does have the best crossover potential of like any of the slashers, right? Like yes, and yet when they actually try to go there, we just get some black and white morality bullshit from a straight dude. I'm looking at you, Scott Derrickson, number five. I've I've been waiting. I've been waiting for it to happen. It's happened to every episode. Scott Derrickson for number five. So mad this one. I wanna see the Twilight Vampires run into this ship. I wanna see Predator try and take down a set of We did discuss this, didn't we? Y I mmm did we? I can't remember. We definitely discuss Predator taking down something. That might have been last month. I can't remember. Okay. But no, I love I love that idea. That's incredible. So good. And then I guess things taking down. Not taking me down. Leviathan. Power. ⁓ this is the pointy eight-sided diamond. I think of it as the stabby one. Yes, so stabby. Yeah. The D eight. The evil D eight. Final form. Achieved. Can grant the gift associated with any of the other six configurations, and this is the one that we kind of see in hellbound, however it's different. Leviathan, ruler of hell, when the god music starts coming in and Morse code apparently. Mm-hmm. But a ruler of hell who commands the Senobites. And you right? Giant Rhombus who gives like Chinnard his penis heads. Makes him a Dickhead more than he was before, yeah. A literal dickhead from a metaphoric dickhead. And also turns Roland into a Cenobite. So I feel like this is the one that has the most relationship to the previous entries. Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I think this might be the choice just going off what we've seen from the others, like being crucified inside a giant triangle doesn't seem that bad. And you gotta be like Zordon for the rest of the Cenobites. That's pretty cool job. Okay. Mighty Morphin Power Rangers Hellraiser crossover where the Rangers are Cenobites. Ooh. There is some kind of fan comic crossover out there I haven't gotten to check out because it's super like unlisted, but like it started as a Friday the thirteenth versus Power Rangers thing, and then with each issue, like I I think they Put the Ninja Rangers up against the Centibytes or something like that. Incredible. I've only seen the covers and they rule to whoever it is that made those, please put ⁓ back online. That that shit rules. All right. Well, this has a lousy 68% approval rating on Rotten Tomatoes based on 148 reviews. This has a 5.9 out of ten on IMDB and a 2.9 out of 5 or a 5.8 out of 10 on Letterboxed. And Those are all too low for my liking. I worked at a movie theater for five years and I worked at a family video while those still existed. And I can say from first stand experience with a bunch of fucking mouth breathers, that the average horror fan is really fucking stupid. That present company excluded. I mean like our it would be like paranormal activity three or four or five that would like ha ha Be a full packed theater and I didn't want to hear the opinions of a single person in that movie theater. Like that's that's most of who's seeing this. People that'll like see it follows and be pissed, but not for any of the reasons you might maybe should be pissed about it follows. I love it follows. Also, Paranormal Activity Three is actually really good, which surprised me. Speaking of movies that just keep being made, let's make down money. And now we'll dig into the meat, the goo, the viscera, the flesh of our brother in a section we call Enough is a myth. Okay, so in the original Hellraiser lore, there's a pretty clear delineation in who should be punished and who spared based on their morality and deeds. In this iteration, anyone who is close to Riley is at risk of being tortured by the Cenobites, whether they're good or bad. Does this new mythology track with the old lore? Is it more or less effective than the original lore? Someone still has to be marked. The blade has to taste their blood, essentially, for them to be marked as a sacrifice for the Sunobites. And so I don't think it's random. I don't think it's just like anyone near her. It's the people who are actively getting hurt by this. That obviously ties in very closely to the addiction storyline that we're doing here. And so I I think for this movie it really works because we're we're operating under a different structure here. We're operating with expanded lore that does some different things. And I find it very effective. I I like what it's doing, but I feel like it's different enough that I'm like, this this didn't need to be Hellraiser necessarily, or this idea like fits any number of other things, original IP. Honestly This could have been a 13 ghost sequel, maybe even much easier than it could have been a Hellraiser sequel. And I hate that. I've heard people say that before. Wait, you hate Thirteen Ghosts? Yes. ⁓ my god, I love that movie. It's it's my favorite new metal horror movie. The one black character in it, they have rap through the credits, and she's written like Chevy Chase's character in community would have written her. Like it's ⁓ look, I'm not saying she's well written, but she is a rapper. She she was a rapper before she was an actor. So I I think letting her rap over the credits was actually pretty cool. Yeah. The most decent thing they could have done was not make that movie. I will say though, is it's how I feel about Hellraiser nine. Every great thing I've heard about that has come from children. Like I was a kid when that came out and like it is a great horror movie for children 'cause it's like if Scooby Doo was actually scary and killed people and like it's even got Shaggy in it, so it it checks out. True. No soinks, y'all yells. No soinks. Caitlin, do you do you have any thing or do you want to wait to move on to the next question, Caitlyn? ⁓ I can move on to the next question. It ties back into the first, so you could just do one big blanket answer. Yep, yep, yep. Okay, so still on the lore. The original movie is a metaphor for the line between pain and pleasure, sex and death. I've talked about this a lot. These are maybe things that interest me. I don't know. This movie changes that up to be a metaphor about addiction and its cyclical nature through the lens of a slasher. How does this change work for you? Does one metaphor speak to you more than the other? Is it kind of hard for you to accept a new metaphor if you love the original? It does work for me, and I think one of the reasons it does is because the subsequent sequels also have different metaphors attached to them for why the Centibytes are being called. Two, they're barely called into the real world. We are going to hell. But you know, with hell on earth and bloodline, a lot of it is not, as we've discussed, ⁓ attached to that very kinky, queer leather experience. Has anyone ever been to like a kink night where people are being held up by hooks? ⁓ suspension? Yeah. Suspension and hooks. I've never seen suspension in real life. My first experience knowing it was a thing was in the cell when Vincent D'Nofrio's character is suspended above his most recent victim and jerks off. So for a long time I thought it was just something serial killers did. And then when I started actually exploring Kink and I found out, ⁓ this is a real thing people do, I thought it was really fucking cool and I have always wanted to see it done. I don't know if I would do it. Partly because I have a lot of tattoos on my back, and also just because I have a lot of chronic pain and I don't know how my body would react to it. But I love the idea of it. It might fix it. The suspension rack is looking at me. I can fix her. Just let gravity take care of it. Gravity hurts. You know, actually, Pinhead probably would be a really good like holistic medical health practitioner. He's got all the acupuncture needles and like all the chains and stuff. Like this is just his kink night that you see him. His day job he's actually hyper flexible. Let's see if we can work on that. Now put this razor blade in your throat. Would you would you let the Hell Priest do acupuncture on you? I won't let anyone do acupuncture on me 'cause the one time I tried to do it, I could feel every single needle in me and it caused me a lot of pain and discomfort. Which is not supposed to happen. No, that's not what Whoever did that, they were not going through your qi correctly is that that that's not. No, they were. I was just way too fucked up at the time. ⁓ no. ⁓ Yeah. Really all depends on how the helpri sees me. Like, am I the messy bitch he's rooting for or am I the person he's like really about to get off on poking in the mouth? Right. Just a little poking. Tyler sex tape? Well right. The needles, presumably. That's he's covering ⁓ Maybe hooks if he's feeling like a bastard. Real sassy that day. I do think though that with turning the metaphor into addiction does work for me because a lot of addiction has to do with pursuing that pleasure, but also there is a lot of pain that is associated with that. That can either be when you're coming down, it can be what you ⁓ do to other people. And so even though it is not the kinky sex Heart of pain and pleasure. There is an aspect of that when it does come to addiction that I think rings true. I absolutely agree. And as someone who has not dealt with substance addiction issues, I cannot speak to that directly. I have had friends who have dealt with substance issues, and I know that. That is something that can really fuck you up and it can really fuck up the other people in your life. And I really feel for people who are going through those types of issues because no one wants to be like that. I I would assume. No one wants to be in a place where they are so dependent on something that it is destroying both them and the people around them, the relationships that they have. And I've unfortunately had that issue with people. I don't I don't have addiction to substances, but I do get addicted to people. And that has been very apparent in a recent very close relationship that turned into just now a very casual friendship, and I am still dealing with the fallout of that and how to manage my addictive tendencies toward that person. And This is not the first time something like this has happened in my life, and it probably won't be the last, which is unfortunate. But I'm I'm really trying to get better with that. And so I deeply empathize with Riley in this movie and Yeah, I I think that the beauty of this world of the Cenobites, the Order of the Gash, and what they do is that you can sort of apply it to anything. It it doesn't have to be about Sex. It doesn't have to be about that type of desire because people can desire so many different things. And that's what we see here with the different configurations, is that each one represents a different type of desire, a different type of pursuit for something that you do not currently possess. And I love the way that it's handled. I I know I've seen a lot of people be like, Do we really need another movie about addiction? And it's like Yeah, yeah, we do, because this is something that really affects people and horror is always the best place to explore things like that. And have I talked about being a little sick of trauma horror? Yeah, I have. But it's not because I think it's not valid, it's because I don't always want to watch a movie that hits me right in the feels and makes me feel like shit. Sometimes I just wanna be entertained. But that's me. That's that's my preference, and that's fine. But I love this movie, and I I love what it does. All I wanted to say is, ⁓ yes, the shit. This movie replaces the queer subtext of the original with overtly queer characters in the form of Matt and Colin. Of course, Matt gets killed relatively early in the film. Thematically, how do we feel about this death? On the one hand Matt is Riley's brother and the one person who's always looking out for her, killing him off shows the consequences of her destructive actions. But on the other hand, in our current cultural landscape, given film history as a whole, can we also not just see this as another example of bury your gaze? Did you answer the last question? Sorry, I just if I think so. Just making sure did everyone get to answer that last one? I think so. ⁓ shit, Tommy, did you have something you wanted to add to the I don't know if I Yeah, nothing super profound. You all have like really profound things might just be like Hey, they there's a dis there's a theme of disinterest in sex in this. That's about it. But on the barrier gaze thing, like I was thinking earlier today, remembering this like ⁓ weird that this Hellraiser movie wasn't very gay, having completely forgotten that there were two gay characters and they're just so normalized that like it didn't stand out in my mind. I'm also surrounded by a lot more queer people, so it also didn't stand out in my mind. Mm-hmm. So like kudos to that. And we do get two gays and one of ⁓ gets to live. So like then balancing the scales. I I think that if we did not have Colin and if Colin did not survive until the end I would be pissed because then we would really be burying our gaze. We w we would be losing both of those characters. And I I've seen people be like, ⁓ my God, they're reading poetry in bed together. That's that's so stereotypical. And I'm like Is it? Gay Is it? Have have you ever seen a movie where two gay men lay in bed together, clearly post coitus, and read poetry together? So the closest thing I can think of is Morris, but that they're not in bed and Also they're pretentious students at Oxford, so that's kind of the point. Right. I I don't know. I d I find that really cute and charming. If my partner wanted to do something like that with me, like read me a poem and have me guess who wrote it, that would be adorable. I would absolutely do that. I would break my no reading in bed rule for that. No. And and so I don't understand why people were mad about it. I I think it was one of those things where people were just like looking for something to be mad about. They could not just be happy, like, ⁓ we have two gay characters in this movie. They don't make a big deal out of them being gay, they just get to exist. I just saw one of my partners for the first time in months, and we spent most of our weekend together in bed reading This Is How We Win the Time War together, which is one very poetic novella. One of the most like meaningful experiences we've ever had together. So like Yeah, sorry we're not re-watching the office again, like fuck that. No. Let people read in bed together. It's really nice and endearing. It makes you feel connected. Like you're doing. And then they also look really hot together. I mean, like ⁓ my god. I think my only thing is I wish we got a little more of him and Matt together before Matt dies. But I don't know. It's it still works for me. I I also think because Colin lives Which is wild because I've seen this movie like four times and on this last watch I still thought Colin died. He gets real fucked up. He gets stabbed with the blade from the box. He gets wrapped in essentially razor wire and it starts to pull apart his skin. Dude has lost a lot of blood. He lost his glasses. How can he see without his glasses? Yeah. I do think Colin would be a great protagonist to a sequel to this movie. That'd actually be great to have a a gay man be the protagonist would be very interesting and track with the Hellraiser universe. Yes. ⁓ you know what would be great if he was in the Roland Voigt position where he is essentially trying to get revenge on the Cenobites for killing his partner. Even though is Matt that great, like honestly. I had a lot of problems with Matt. I I'm just gonna say I did have some problems with Matt. Well, and and I think that makes sense because he is the pillar of support for Riley, and she just keeps in his eyes fucking up. And that is something that happens to a lot of people who are dealing with addiction. Their their main pillar of support ends up being someone who is so close to them that they cannot abide the mistakes. They just want the person to be fixed and and to be able to move on. And yeah, I think that that was definitely my biggest issue with Matt, where it was like, Hey, if someone is making a good faith effort and I know it gets really hard, especially if they've fucked up over and over again. However, if someone is like, I have stopped this, I am trying to stop like I am really making a good faith effort on this so I can, you know, continue living in my house or your house or whatever it is, and that he continued though to think that she was gonna fuck up repeatedly. And then at that point it kind of becomes like, well, if you just think I'm gonna be doing this, why don't I just do it? And that part. So sometimes when I watch Matt, I do have a pretty visceral reaction to that that character in particular, where I'm just like This is n mm, I I get it. I have had a lot lot of family members with massive addiction issues, friends with addiction issues, and but yeah, it does feel like even with people if you have like problems I don't emotionally regulating, it's like, well, if you think I'm just gonna act like this, maybe I might as well should, because what is the point of not? I can't really remember what The purpose of myself ⁓ started to talk about Matt and my problems with him. But that's what I have to say. I don't think it's barrier gaze, though, because Colin survives and Matt's a bit of an asshole. Yeah. Well, and I also think that Matt isn't killed off as motivation for his partner. Exactly. He's killed off as motivation for his sister. And that's very true. And it's not because he's gay. Right. He's not being punished because he's gay, he's being punished because he got called. Mm-hmm. Basically. Yeah. Well, speaking of getting called let's play a game. Okay, Caitlin. What's our game? Rate me. But not you, Amanda. I mean we we will get to this, I am sure, in this game. Wait, are you saying rate me as if you are Kurt Cobain? You know, I knew the moment that I said that. Rate me. Sorry. Wait, where do I have this? This is the one. Okay. ⁓ Jamie Clayton's gonna show up behind me and be like that joke was off color and uncalled for. I was gonna say rank me. They all just sounded the same. Rank me. No, I like that. Rank me. Rank me. So we have Rankin' Bass. Right. Sorry. Rankin' bass. I'll stop. I'll stop. Rankin' it. Rankin' it to Hellraiser. I'm sober right now. ⁓ We have ⁓ given you all, our lovely, lovely listeners, what the ratings have been for the first four Hellraisers. Wait. No, two through four and then twenty twenty-two. There are a few in between though. Mm-hmm. ⁓ yeah, five through ten. So I want you all to guess from highest to lowest, what are the rotten tomatoes on this? How many tomatoes do you think this all got? There are two that have 0% rating. ⁓ And I did the one that has least reviews before the one that has the more more reviews. Just so that that is what I'm going off of. So we have Hellraiser Inferno from 2000, Hellraiser Hellseeker from 2002, Hellraiser Deader, which I hated. Just saying or looking at a terrible table. Oof. ⁓ 2005. Hellraiser Hellworld also came out in 2005. That's the like video game one, right? Yes, that's the one with baby Henry Cables. Right, right, right. And then we Wait a moment with Hellraiser Revelations twenty eleven and then Hellraiser Judgment from twenty eighteen. And those are the two without Doug Bradley. Those the two without Doug Bradley. Revelations is the one that they made within seventy-two hours so that they could maintain the script rights. And it's the one I call the Brothers Porn parody of a Hellraiser movie. Right, right, right. So does that mean we're gonna watch it for lingerie lovers sometime? ⁓ the look at the look at his face. Absolutely not, is what that just said. No, I think they filmed it in a pornhouse, but it doesn't even give me the porn. It just gives me the setup. It's just the setup. We could actually do it for maybe it's incest. We could do it for incest it it's incest month. Oops. Oops, all incest. ⁓ okay. I Alright. I'm guessing I'm gonna put Hellraiser at the top just since I feel like that one's got the most potential to have a fan following out of all of these. Wait, which which Hellraiser though? Yeah, we're only doing five through town. ⁓ Hellworld. Okay. Keep going. Everyone just keep yelling things out. I love you. I'm not allowed to do this. I mean you can. Revelations, ⁓ that's the seventy two hour one. I'm gonna put that in the zero percent category, so toward the bottom. Mm-hmm. I I have seen none of these by the way, so I'm just going off of reputation. Would you like me to tell you what they are? I've seen four of them, but not since high school. I've seen all of them. Which one is the one that's just ⁓ seven but not? ⁓ actually that's that's five and ten. ⁓ Interesting. Five and ten are are very, very similar. You might be referring to ten. Six, seven, eight, nine, ten. Judgment. Yes. I love that you wrote she's a bottom for revelations. Inferno is the Scott Derrickson. It's the Scott Derrickson. It's the one with James Remar. It's like an attempt at a noir, but it's dumb. Hell Seeker is the one where Kirsty is back and it's follows her husband after he gets into a car accident with her and has a very brief cameo from Heather Langenkamp. It's not great, but at least it's not five. Debtor is the one where there's like a death cult. Ooh. And a journalist gets sent to Romania to study this death cult. And it's got the butler from the parent trap being cunty and disbutting. I bustle. Hellworld is the video game one with Lance Henrickson and Henry Cavill, where there actually really isn't the Hell Priest in it, but it's all Lance Henrickson. Revelations is the one where Doug Bradley said, Fuck the shit I'm out. Mm-hmm. And they wrote the script within seventy-two hours because they didn't want to lose the rights. And then Judgment is very similar thematically to number five, but is yeah, that's like Deadly Sins Killing. So that would be your seven. I'm I'm gonna also put judgment in in the bottom. That's that's my guess. I really want to hear what Amanda thinks all of these are. ⁓ I okay, so I think after three and four, I as I recall, I think critics were a little nicer to Inferno, cause they're wrong. So I think that might have gotten the top rating. I'm putting revelations at the bottomiest bottom. Okay. And then I'm gonna say Hellseeker, Hellworld, Debtor, Judgment. Okay, Hellseeker. Which I think has a thirteen percent. Debtor and Judgment, you said it. I think it was Hellseeker Hell World. Debtor and Judgment. Right? Yes. Is that what you said, Amanda? Okay. Okay. So debtor is four. Debtor is four. Hell world, Amanda said, is three. Three. Judgment, then revelations. How do numbers work? I don't even know. I'm gonna agree with Amanda. All right. I mean it's been a while since I looked up these reviews, but in the case of those last two, ⁓ sometimes dead is better. yep. I've been trying to find a way to work that in for like five minutes now. Since that stupid ass name came up, Mike I just I love I love Pet Cemetery so much and I love Fred Gwynn's main accent in it. It's incredible. So I felt when I saw Elon Musk's Children of the corn looking ass kid that he was wearing as a bullet shield for a while. my god. Scary little lizard child. Sometimes dead is better. The soil of a man's heart is stonier. Alright. How do we do? So this is wild, I just have to say. I'm gonna go from worst reviewed to best reviewed, though, as a Navies. So worst reviewed is actually Healthseeker. Wow. Zero percent with ten reviews. Okay. And then it's Revelations. She is a bottom. Zero percent, but with six reviews. ⁓ So I gave it to Hellseeker because four more people were very unhappy with this movie. And then in fourth place, we have Hellraiser, Deber. At ten percent. Okay. Amanda got that one. Then we have Hellraiser Hell World at 13%. Hey, nice. Okay. Then we have Hellraiser Inferno at 22%, which I know you are so stoked about. ⁓ And then Hellraiser Judgment at thirty one percent. So the one How does that have the best rating? No idea. Maybe more people reviewed it. I should have written down exactly how many people reviewed these ones because I will also say not much. Not many? Yeah, no. Not many people are not watching these. I would guess maybe more people are just hungry for a new Hellraiser with a tiny bit of production. Or just like, ⁓ my god, this franchise is back. As it goes from like two thousand five, two thousand eleven, twenty eighteen before we get to twenty twenty two. So now having seen none of these movies that have a pitch for an editing project, and I'm like, could this save them a bit? What if we treated this as like like a nightmare on Elm Street the series kind of thing? Could you edit these all down to an hour, have the Hell Priest be a little quippy at the beginning and end of it and just be like, hey, here's an anthology that I'm kinda in I guess, but we're just repackaging things for they're really bad. They're really bad. I mean a cloud razor Revelations is an hour long. ⁓ shit. Wow. It's okay. It's seventy two minutes. But yeah, it's basically an hour long. Wow, seventy two hours to write it and seventy two minutes to watch it. Yep. And it feels so much longer. ⁓ no. Well, I guess it's time to categorize this thing. So ⁓ what do what do we think? I'm I'm gonna go with a queer punisher. Because I I love this movie, I love watching this movie, but it's not a feel-good time. Yeah, I'm this is a punisher to me. The the end just in and of itself like now you have to live with all of this. And I'm like First of all, of course you do. ⁓ just my life, thank you. But it it's something that's not usually pointed out in horror movies for our survivors. It's not like, ⁓ my god, this is gonna haunt you for the rest of your life. It's usually implied, but in this it's directly said. What does it say about modern society that the centibytes can come up from BDSM hell, look around, be like, Really? You're staying here? Says a lot. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. I get it. Fair. So Tommy, would you also call this the Punisher? ⁓ It's hard to say, 'cause like ⁓ I know people that love Hellraiser and it's like, hey, this is like number three or number four quality wise, or it's like one of the only good ones we have. So if you want like this is everything you want from Hellraiser. It's not like Almost all of these aren't what you hope for. Yeah, I wanna see the pinhead guy, I wanna see the centipytes, love and rank. Here's some other bullshit. Here's messy straight couple killing people to get someone's body back or some asylum bullshit. It it is a pleaser in that regard, but like I'm I only watched it a second time because I'm coming on here. So yeah. But you know what? I'm gonna call it a pleaser because it gives us what we want. ⁓ they made the Hell Priest trans and that's fucking rad. Yeah, we didn't even talk about Jamie Clayton and how incredible her performance is in this. Every single second she's on screen, every single word that comes out of her mouth is so fucking powerful. I love that they went to Clive Barker's original vision of the Hell Priest and having them be very androgynous. And I I love that they chose a trans woman to play that. without it feeling like stunt casting or anything. ⁓ and you've how do we just pass right by Enough is a myth, your r recurring theme, and that's from this movie. I gotta be on that episode. Uh-huh. Yeah. It's also the name of my album. Yep. I really thought about making a line of like, yeah, and I actually made an album about this movie. I'm pretty sure I'm the only trans person that's ever done this before imagine. Wait, you also ⁓ I can play a little keyboard and I just got a DJ deck that might I might learn one of these days. But yeah. Nice. So yeah, d is that a thing we want to talk about? Like that that line hits real hard. That enough is a myth. ⁓ yeah. Yeah. I mean there there's a reason I named my album that. And you know, ⁓ besides the album being almost a hundred percent inspired by this movie, it's also very inspired by the experiences I've had and like The last song on it is a literal fuck you to my abusive mother. I mean it the the last line of the album is I hope you burn forever. And I think in general the album was me coping with the disillusion of several really important relationships in my life. And as someone who has borderline personality disorder, I am often told That I am too much. I'm too much for people. Things that I do are too much. And the way I've tried to reframe that for myself is that I am not too much. You are not enough for me. And so the phrase enough is a myth really hits home for me because it's like it people are choosing to stop themselves from being able to handle me because. Yeah, I can be a lot, and I also do a lot of work to manage my mental health and do a lot of work to be the best version of myself that I can be, to take care of the people in my life as much as I can. And it's like, you know, the very basic version of this is if you can't handle me at my whatever, then you don't deserve me at my this good thing. And i that's obviously an extremely reductive way to look at this, but It's not my responsibility to get other people to be enough for me. If people choose to be able to do that, then they're going to reap the rewards of a relationship with me where I am going to be ride or die for them every second of every day. And and that's just who I am as a person. And yeah. Sorry. That was a bit rambly. But important final thoughts it seems. I was gonna say this is very final thoughts. Yeah. Anyone else have any final thoughts? Yeah, just on that line, I do think that does encapsulate the theme of the film really well and that the hell priest is saying that to an addict that enough is a myth. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Well, I guess that means it's time to wrap up with what awaits you next time. Don't you see he's got us now? Okay, this is exactly what he wants. We can't go to the police, not now. He's made sure of that. He's just out there and he's watching us and waiting. What are you waiting for? Huh? What are you waiting for? And that brings us to the end of our episode. Thanks so much for joining us on this journey, fellow travelers. If you like what you hear, please leave us a rating and review wherever you can, because it helps more people find the show and it makes us all tingly inside. Speaking of which, we have a review from Amber Q. This was left on a Spotify episode a few weeks back. And Amber says This has quickly become my favorite podcast. Not to be all parasocial and gross, lol, but when a witch is truly going through it, sometimes a new episode drop is the highlight and joy in a day. Y'all are just so fantastic. I always end an episode feeling like I learned new things and was seen as a weirdo dike pervert nerd, lol. Also not uncommon to get teary along with May and love how warm and caring the energy always seems to be. Hope y'all are blessed in every lifetime. Thank you, Amber. Yeah. Thank you so much, Amber. That means a lot. I'm glad you can get weepy with me and are also a weirdo dike pervert. So you can also find us on Instagram at Pleasers and Punishers and on Blue Sky at PleasersPunishers. And like I mentioned at the top of the episode, you can now find us on Patreon at patreon.com slash podcast perverts. You can find me on Blee Sky on Letterboxd at Everson Poe. You can find my music on Amphol, Bandcamp, and streaming services as Everson Poe. Two separate words. Go buy my Hellraiser album. It's called Enough Is Myth. And you can hear me podcasting on Tender Subject and Slayer Fest ninety-eight. Caitlin. I don't even know anymore. ⁓ I can be found on threads and Instagram at Caitlin of the North, Cat of the North on Letterboxd, and I keep popping up on people under the skizzzes. ⁓ Patreon, BuffyWatchalog, fuck hellmouth. Amanda. I can be found on Blue Sky Instagram and TikTok at Amanda Jane Stern. I am on Leatherboxed at Witchy Wanderer, and you can also hear me podcasting on Murder Made Fiction. Woo! Woo! And Tommy, where can you be found? And do you have anything you want to plug? I I know when I asked you for a bio, you sent me a very long bio, and I was like, this is so impressive. Like just just staggeringly impressive how much stuff you do. Thank you. ⁓ let's see. Will this episode be out before the end of June? Yes. This is coming out ⁓ two weeks from today, June twenty fifth. Okay. ⁓ so I will still be featured in a comic anthology on Kickstarter, by visibility, bye bye, bye. That has a lot of talented creators on it. I co-wrote a polyamorous post apocalyptic story with my friend Amy Wickendall, who's Iowa's first trans-elected official and with art brought to life by Matt Salisbury. ⁓ nice. You can hear my dulcid tones on a couple other podcasts. I host Transcending Comics, which is seemingly the first trans comic book podcast. Giant-sized violence, a toku comics podcast. If you love Godzilla, Power Rangers, and anything that looks like that in the form of a comic, check it out there. ⁓ Also, since there was a buffy mention, I produced the Repatterning Podcast, which gets into mental health, witchy stuff, ⁓ self-development, and it's hosted by one of Jos Whedon's exes. So ⁓ wow. That's the connection there. Interesting. Gonna have to start listening to that one. Check out my comic When We Transform. That's on Global Comics. ⁓ it's kind of a trans take on Power Rangers. And speaking of that ⁓ you can check out my award-winning episode that's on both my main podcast feeds called It's Morphin Time. It's a psychedelic experimental coming out episode with a bunch of music sampled. I take a lot of pride in it because I've never really heard another episode like it elsewhere. So check those things out. ⁓ find me on Blue Sky as at Tommy Trimbath. That's T-O-M-I. And finally, check out my Instagram as at Key Master Collective. I work with light reactive color changing art. I am not a visual artist myself. I just produce it through other folks. If that sounds like something you want to check out and do, please reach out to me. I have a Google Doc with some guides on how it works. I want to see more art like it out in the world, so reach out to me and I'll share what little I know. That's so fucking cool. And just thank you again for joining us for this. I love everything you brought to the table and this was a wonderful discussion. Yeah, I had a lovely time. This was so much fun. And your podcast rules by the way. It's very fun to listen to. You guys are hilarious. And I was literally listening to your most recent Hellraiser episode like right up until we hopped on. Well, I guess that means we'll have to have you back sometime. So we'll we'll talk about that off mic. And next week's episode will be our transition from season one to season two. collection of outtakes and bloopers that I've assembled over the last year. I have around a hundred and ten so far in in my little outtakes folder and when I stitch ⁓ all together it's probably gonna be around two hours long. ⁓ I was gonna say have fun listening to me talk about Sailor Moon and just Not being able to pronounce anyone's name. But yeah, it should be a great time. And after that, we're officially switching to video episodes for both Patreon and our main feed. So you can see our beautiful faces. And you can also see the reactions that we have when someone says something that is shocking. Or just like whatever, because I'm just very reactive with my Yeah, there are a lot of facial reactions on this podcast. Honestly, if if a podcast has ever lent itself to being in a visual medium, it it is ours. Servant face all day. And July is our free-for-all month, so our first proper episode is my pick, and it's going to be on Travis Stevens A Wounded Fawn, which is one of my favorite horror movies and just one of my favorite movies of all time. I am very excited to talk about it. But until then, do some aftercare, clean your toys, set healthy boundaries, and live with the choices you've made.