WEBVTT
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Inherently, landscapes cannot be as resolved as architecture because they are living things.
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Not being resolved allows that expansion of the brain, you know.
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Like I feel we are giving people too many things which are resolved.
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And I don't personally believe that's a healthy uh way of living when everything is just provided and because you you start losing critical thought.
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Today on the podcast we have with us Path Divakan, and he is the founder of Great Landscape Architects in India.
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So experienced in design but also really eloquent about the subject of play.
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So, Path, welcome to the podcast.
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Thank you so much, Beth.
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It's a pleasure to be there again.
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It's so nice to speak with you again, and um, yeah, we're really looking forward to this conversation.
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So I wanted to start just by offering you the opportunity to give us a little bit of background and about the flavor of the work that you do, the kind of projects you work on, and um and what it's like working in your line of work in a city like Mumbai.
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GLE is something which I started six almost six years ago in the 2020, September of 2020, uh, after I came back from New York.
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And uh most of our practice is either like our projects are in Mumbai, uh Alibag, and we are doing some work outside of the state as well.
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Though our office is based in the city of Pune, that's where I grew up, but but but majority of our commissions either are in Mumbai or with people from Mumbai.
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So we work primarily in high-end residential sector.
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We are doing some uh experimental work in institutions, with institutions.
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Uh, we are doing private residences.
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So I I believe like we we are working across the spectrum, which is really interesting when I think you're starting a new practice, is where you don't want to be pigeonholed immediately, you know.
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Like whenever people ask me what excites me the most, I just say it's design and it's irrespective of the scale or intent.
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It's it's it's the joy of designing.
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Yeah.
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So I think we have been very fortunate to be to be, you know, alongside great collaborators, as well as finding some really good clients which uh which more than the built work are interested in the process.
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Because see, as a new firm, we don't have a lot of built work, and that has worked up really well for us, is because whatever clientile we have been able to uh work with so far have essentially trusted us with the process.
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And I just feel uh, you know, for our profession it is so important because um it's you know, in and this is not an Indian thing.
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I believe that in most of the world, it is very easy to reduce design into just the aesthetics of it.
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So I really enjoy working with people who are more interested in the process, and of course, if the process is great, the outcome is gonna be fantastic.
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Yeah, that opens up.
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I mean, just in that, I've written so many notes, I've got so many questions that just come out of that short introduction.
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So thank you for that.
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But I'm gonna start with when you talk about high-end residential sector, what does that look like?
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What sets it apart?
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I I think you know, with this limited five years of my exposure, because I always uh take my life in two parts.
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Okay.
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It's pre-United States and post-United States.
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And the reason for that is like I got a nice exit for six years, and that allowed me to look at India from the outside.
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You know, you you identify things which are sometimes not possible when you're within the system you're looking at, right?
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So after coming back, I think the five years where I've been carefully observing is like what exactly is high-end?
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You know, because at the end, when you're talking about high-end residences and we are being commissioned by, let's say, developers, right?
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Essentially, we are selling a commodity for an end user, which is not us.
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So, so it's it's it it, you know, like every day we have this question of all of us that what exactly constitutes a high-end design?
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Is it your association with plants?
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Is it your association with uh the trip you took to Europe or any other part of the world, which you tag as a luxury destination?
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Or is it something very vague, or is it just the fact that nobody else has it makes it luxurious?
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So it's it's very interesting because landscape is still, and I would say, uh very what you say, like with full responsibility, like it's uh it's still a very primitive field in India.
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We are yet to explore the authenticity of what landscapes are capable of.
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In five years, we have understood most of them mean certain association of planting.
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They have seen in seven-star and five-star properties, um, certain materials which we have seen outdoors, but primarily I would say it's planting because we we don't yet have the culture of public spaces the way traditionally and uh the way I would I have worked on with Michael's office in New York.
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We are yet to explore that here.
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So until then, I think the associations are going to be broadly based on planting and materiality, yeah, yeah, more than the experience.
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Yeah.
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And I suppose that comes back to when you're saying the clients that you work with are trusting you with the process, they're almost trusting you to interpret to some extent what that high-end uh label might mean and bring your own knowledge, experience, and that trust enables you to almost do a bit of culture change around people's understanding of landscape and the field of landscape architecture as well.
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It sounds like you're in a really interesting uh transition.
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Talking of transitions, you referenced there that you spent some time in the United States, you said there was pre-United States and there was post-United States.
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I'm really interested to know.
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Um, tell us a little bit about that.
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What took you to the US?
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What did you experience when you were there?
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What were the clear differences and similarities about being in the US to being in India and working within that field?
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And when you say that it gave you a new lens looking back at India, you know, that's a really interesting uh uh area that I'd really like to explore.
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Well, absolutely.
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I think because those are one of the very fond memories I have uh, you know, in 36 years of being here, it's like the six years, uh close to six years, which I spent um first at Cornell, two years where I was doing my master's, and uh then uh two years at MVVA, Michael Van Walkenberg.
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Uh and both were so distinct in their education because I believe, like uh, so I studied architecture prior to doing my master's in landscape, right?
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So then I happened to work with a fantastic firm in Bangalore for a year before I applied for master's, and then I went to Cornell.
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So for for me, right, like first the shift, and I I believe I took like at least six, seven, eight years to do that, is to first shift the approach that landscape is not does not mean architecture of the outdoors.
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It it does not mean that you're doing spaces the way an architect would do, but just that uh there's no roof or there's no Z access, a defined Z access to it, right?
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So Cornell for me was the first step, which I think the first time I really found myself uh and realized that what I really enjoy is thinking big systems.
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Like that gives me the most amount of joy is like thinking big systems and understanding how they all are interconnected.
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How can you expand your thought from a site to a planetary scale?
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And and with Michael's office, exactly the opposite happens that okay, all this thing, and then how exactly do you uh condense that and uh use it with the right rigor to solve a site?
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Yeah, bringing that global perspective back into the the site that you're working on.
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Well, I mean, just before, when you were talking about um that, you talked about what landscapes are capable of.
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Yeah.
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And um, yeah, I suppose that so what sort of things for the uninitiated, what sort of things are landscapes capable of?
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I think I think five years ago I myself was finding and pretty much on the fence uh to figure out like was landscape a subset of architecture of something else?
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Uh were we supposed to sit on the table with architects and urban planners as we have been struggling for maybe last century?
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And is this something we want to do?
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But in the recent two years, I believe I've become certain that the scope of landscape is way beyond all this.
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I mean, I personally, and again, I say it with a lot of responsibility that I feel that architecture is a subset of it, like landscape.
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Again, I myself feel design itself is a subset of landscape, like landscapes are a way to think, right?
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Like we are working on something called, and it's a very GLA project right now.
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It's like, but I just want to put it out there in the world.
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Is we are we are working on this concept of a negotiated civilization.
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It's like, would there be an alternate way where we all kind of realize this world in a negotiated manner, not when we are pushed to a point where we have to give in?
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That's not a negotiation.
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Like, have we are we are we thinking, like, is there a different way to think?
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And I just believe landscape, this whole sphere of landscape is such a dominant force which can help us realize that.
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It's like just how do you behave in space?
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How do you conceive a space?
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Um, how do you interact with objects in that space?
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And trust me, like the way if you start diving deeper in this whole phenomenon of um what landscapes can bring back.
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And I was talking to uh Peter Huyken the other day from Richter, and we were talking the same thing.
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I think he agreed, is that landscapes have this ability to bring back your primal intelligence.
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And I and I think we both agreed, and he loved it so much because I said, like I said, we are losing it as we urganize, and it's not such a great thing to lose that intelligence.
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No, not too, you know, as as yeah.
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So I feel landscapes allow because inherently landscapes cannot be as resolved as architecture because they are living things, right?
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So so not being resolved allows that expansion of the brain, you know.
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Like I feel we are giving people too many things which are resolved, and I don't personally believe that's a healthy uh way of living when everything is just provided, and yeah, because you you start losing critical thought, and and uh people always argue I'm not saying like the laws, okay, maybe somebody doing an apartment complex and giving an extremely resolved layout, but I'm saying that the habit of uh getting living in resolved environments starts uh uh spilling into everything you do.
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You see, like basically you start losing critical thought.
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It's not like you just lose critical thought on how to live, it's you start losing critical thought, the ability to think critically.
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And I know this is deeply philosophical, but we are firm believers that urban environments need less resolved spaces and landscape can do that.
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No, I think it's amazing, and what I'm hearing, what I'm wanting to get you to maybe talk about now is the word play is coming to mind.
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Obviously, this is play attention, play is our passion, and uh the ideas about critical thinking, resilience, things not being resolved, creating self-determined play opportunities that aren't resolved and fixed and set, enable that critical thinking, you know, the this idea of resilience and failure and mistakes and things not always being neat edges and living landscape, changing environments, that all to me is just sparking off all of what play can do and environments that support play can do.
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So I'm gonna bring you to the subject of play and within all of this context, your current work, your work in America, the learning that you've already talked about.
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Where does play fit into this?
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How is your how is your connection with play as a designer and as a human?
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Oh, I think I think play is the the most quintessential, like it's it's the most fundamental thing of spaces.
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I mean, I really believe the space itself should embody that spirit of play if you want to really achieve a good space.
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And my association, like okay, so if you have to go, I I think we'll go with my childhood association later because it's experiential, but now I've theorized it because you know now I'm looking at it the lens of an adult.
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But I think my association with designing play or with working with uh uh Timberplay Richter starts in New York with MEVA because there I'm very fortunate to be part of teams which are working on the Obama Presidential Library, uh, for instance, which just got inaugurated yesterday and the play area has come up really well.
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Ah, congratulations.
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So, you know, I yeah, so that was those were my early associations with looking at play as a part of landscape.
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Before that, I'd pretty much never given it the thought.
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I I and I I will accept it.
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Like, I've never thought that okay, play could be a specialized area, right, of any spaces, not just public parks.
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So I think my technical knowledge, if I have to technically solve a playground, I would give the credit to Michael's office for sure.
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And and but if you ask me, like in the last couple of years, as GLA keeps evolving, and right now at our office, we are in this phase where we are actively working on four different play areas, right?
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So we are in the zone.
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So I think this is just so perfectly timed because all of our thoughts as a as it as the office are just about understanding and uh you know diving back into our childhood to know that is this something we would have enjoyed.
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And um, so so because for this podcast, you know, I was going through a list of things I would want to or I wanted to remember about how what play was growing up.
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And uh, you know, if and I'm sure like all of our experiences are different, but if you're growing up in India during the 90s, most of your experiences of play is not object-related, it's space related and it's company related because you have your friends that you you would just make up things at max what maybe is as a road becoming a cricket pitch.
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Okay, so you would need a bat and a ball, that's it.
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Otherwise, like it's not very equipment heavy.
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But today I realize, you know, like like most of our childhood, like early childhood, let's say you pick up a game like hide and seek, for us, the entire neighborhood was the field, right?
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Because the architecture and the social structure allowed us to jump fences, go into our neighbor's property, hide there.
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I can't imagine something like that happening today, you know, where houses have become fortresses.
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I can't imagine, like if you're growing up in a bungalow and you just see kids jumping your fence and hiding and a family being okay with it.
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And you know, it just takes me back.
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Like, you know, so it's so critical that the spaces, that you get the spaces right if you want authentic play.
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And that it's missing, which is I I'm not very happy about it.
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And and I think the more dangerous part of it is it's being replaced by sport.
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I mean, sport has its own place and it's very important, I'm sure.
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But I'm saying play is not sport, they are two totally different things, and you cannot replace one with the other.
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It's not a self-directed or or as you say, this unresolved characteristic of space that is a really key part of play.
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Is it it's always unresolved.
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It's the borderline of chaos, it's the threshold of uncertainty that keeps you in that unable.
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And I think yeah, that's yeah, and what what what you've described there is this is happening across the globe, that space is being taken away, repurposed to create the barriers to that very much that free play.
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So when you were in the USA and you were working there with um MVVA, you were working on these play projects.
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You're you're talking about how much learning went on for you there.
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Were there particular projects there that you worked on that that will really stand out for you?
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Because I I believe you were you worked on the Tulsa gathering place?
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Yes, so the phase two, the phase two of that, and again that uh it was one of the most uh what do you say the amazing experience, the technicality, the solving of uh the spaces uh at the gathering place.
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And the phase one was already done, I think, way before I joined, and phase two was still pending.
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So it was a very small team of me and uh my two seniors, and and we really enjoyed it.
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The Obama uh library, I was on and off.
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I spent some time, but that just happened to be the perfect time when the play area was being designed.
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So I was fortunate in that regard.
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I did work extensively on the Waller Creek, the Waterloo Park, um uh sector nine, there's parts of large projects with the firm.
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So I think of the three projects, I would say all equally stand out today.
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If you go, all of them are built.
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Um, and they've I think they've come out really well.
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And it just feels nice to know that okay, you were a part of that process and you helped realize that.
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And I feel, you know, all these things also such a strong underpinning for GLA.
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I mean, I mean, today everything we address, irrespective of the scale, I believe has the same rigor which I learned working with world-class designers.
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It's like I I always tell my team, like it's it's not about the scale, it's the rigor, it's the thought behind.
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I mean, somebody could give you a thousand square feet versus a lakh square feet, and that that should not matter.
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You know, the rigor should be the same for how you solve it.
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And I feel that's exactly what we want to now start doing in India with play areas, because as I said, I firmly believe that the loss of agency is a it is not something to be proud of, especially with young kids.
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Like, I feel most of my life today what I'm doing at GLA, right?
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You never know subconsciously these how to identify thresholds, how to jump over things.
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Like, they have taught me today to critically solve the issues which we face every day.
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I mean, as a young practice, you you are wearing all the hats.
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It's it's pretty much like you're doing everything.
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So I feel like so much of it, maybe could be credited to the way we grew up, you know, through assess risk.
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And uh, so maybe, maybe we're learning all this when we were kids growing up on how to assess risk.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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And is that really like I would not want to lose that, right?
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Because I still remember, I mean, the the I mean the smallest of expressions could be before jumping the fence, just trying to understand if the neighbor's dog was unleashed or was unleashed.
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I mean, I mean, come on, that is going to teach you things.
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But but I'm saying the really the I mean, what we want to discuss right now is that how do you get those experiences?
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I'm not saying like you need to have a dog which is unleashed, but I'm saying how do you get those experiences uh in urban settings which are extremely gated, extremely gated, extremely structured.
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And sure there are so there are many more reasons than design for it.
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Uh, but I'm saying like if if we have to solve for these issues, then I think play and play area could be just a fantastic play to start, uh, a place to start, you know, like just start, and it should not be just for kids.
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I mean, Adults can play as well.
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It's not just for kids.
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Absolutely.
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That multi-generational play and the this conversation we have about this kind of global change in the culture of play or in the culture of childhood.
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Um, although it's different in different locations, it there is a commonality about a sense of reduction or slightly more restriction.
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A couple of things.
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One, I just want to say when you talked about those three playgrounds, your face absolutely lit up.
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You can feel the joy through the screen, and it's that's amazing.
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Um, yeah, absolutely.
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I hear you when you talk about risk and resilience being foundational in you being able to deliver these positive experiences as a business, as an organization, as a design agency.
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But um Bob Hughes, who was a play theorist here in the UK, he wrote about um compensatory spaces.
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So the idea of losing that free world play experience, therefore, as you know, the responsibility we have to create uh environments that that give back that experience.
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And that's what I'm hearing from you.
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You're saying that there's walls that are changing the culture and the way that children play and move through the the cities and through the towns and through the neighborhoods.
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So, how do we then build back in those experiences and experiences that have the same impact?
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Have you found particular things that you look to that you go, this this works, or is it always particularly site specific or project specific?
00:21:49.200 --> 00:22:08.640
No, I think it's it's of course it's um I mean Okay, so I feel play is universal for sure, but I think these solutions end up being very site specific because there's such Cultural and uh socioeconomic drivers for um you know addressing each uh each space.
00:22:08.880 --> 00:22:21.119
But but I feel right now where we are in India, where let's say okay, if we only specifically target uh highly urbanized spaces, let's talk only about the metros, right?
00:22:21.200 --> 00:22:28.720
So there I see like um more and more area, I mean public parks infrastructure is a whole different conversation.
00:22:28.880 --> 00:22:35.200
And I think right now I don't have that authority like to authoratively state what is going wrong with that system.
00:22:35.440 --> 00:22:51.519
But I feel like as more are like or more on the optimistic side, I believe as more and more area keeps coming under private ownership, you know, I think it it is the right time to introduce the intel the spatial intelligence which landscapes can offer.
00:22:51.680 --> 00:23:04.960
And as I said, like maybe it's beyond play, like what essentially we are addressing, uh, as you are addressing as well, is maybe just something which could be even beyond play, is just getting this primal intelligence black.
00:23:05.200 --> 00:23:09.839
And I trying to design spaces which allow those experiences, you know.
00:23:09.920 --> 00:23:14.000
So I I always want to now find ways that how can we expand the scope?
00:23:14.160 --> 00:23:35.279
The client coming to us that can we identify a corner and have the best play equipment there from there to how to expand that is it possible that the entire landscape is designed like a play, and these objects are just spread across in a way that aesthetically they're amazing, like they're they're beautiful, but at the same time, the functionality is tenfold.
00:23:36.000 --> 00:23:37.359
And not, I mean, again, right?
00:23:37.440 --> 00:23:47.920
Like it's so funny, like kids in school are always in classrooms and then they come to playgrounds and then they're just in a playground, so they're always constricted, yeah, contained by something or the other.
00:23:48.079 --> 00:23:49.119
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:23:50.000 --> 00:23:51.599
I don't know if that's very healthy.
00:23:51.839 --> 00:23:54.160
I don't think I grew up very confined, you know.
00:23:54.240 --> 00:24:03.279
Like I was very fortunate to grow up in a family which really allowed us to be free and make those choices about where you are and what you were doing.
00:24:03.519 --> 00:24:04.160
Yeah.
00:24:04.880 --> 00:24:09.359
So take me back a little bit because I've never been to India.
00:24:09.519 --> 00:24:13.440
I don't know what the experience of being a child in India is like.
00:24:13.680 --> 00:24:19.680
Uh, and you know, you talk about going back to the 90s and it not being so much about objects, but being about space.
00:24:19.920 --> 00:24:24.400
Obviously, we're we're no longer in the 90s as much as we might like to be.
00:24:24.559 --> 00:24:27.039
Uh, we we have moved on, things are different.
00:24:27.359 --> 00:24:30.160
So, what was it like and what is it like now?
00:24:30.240 --> 00:24:34.799
What are the key pressures and key kind of focus for children at the moment in India?
00:24:35.119 --> 00:24:49.359
I think you know, I mean, I look at my nieces and nephews, and I I also want to understand, as you say, right, like space is one constraint, but there's so much which has changed with academics, with time, uh, with parents being around.
00:24:49.519 --> 00:24:56.480
Like, you know, I I I just I cannot authoritively tell you that okay, this this one, two, three reasons are what is causing it.
00:24:56.640 --> 00:25:05.519
But I can talk spatially that spatially kids are not being given rich spaces anymore where they can unfold.
00:25:05.599 --> 00:25:12.559
They really aren't, like this whole idea of Maidans, which are open grounds, or but and and I'm sure it's not true for all the cities.
00:25:12.799 --> 00:25:16.079
I'm sure there must be few cities who have a really robust life.
00:25:16.160 --> 00:25:22.319
But if I have to talk about my city of Pune, people will always come up, but no, there are three parks.
00:25:22.480 --> 00:25:25.680
But I'm saying, look at the size of the city.
00:25:26.000 --> 00:25:28.240
What are in terms of accessibility?
00:25:28.480 --> 00:25:31.039
I mean, they're not even 20% accessible.
00:25:31.200 --> 00:25:39.119
I mean, a park which is 10 kilometers away is not really an accessible park for a kid to spend his afternoon and informal settings, you know.
00:25:39.200 --> 00:25:44.799
Sometimes when we are uh either walking in Mumbai or we are in our car looking out.
00:25:45.119 --> 00:25:54.160
I believe sometimes informal housing are offering kids much richer experiences than formalized housing.
00:25:54.480 --> 00:25:56.480
Because I think it's less restrictive.
00:25:56.640 --> 00:26:01.839
You have to make up things because it's not formalized because of resources or whatever it might be.
00:26:02.079 --> 00:26:10.960
I sometimes believe, like, are they actually really enjoying the childhood more than formalized structures and you know, gifted communities?
00:26:11.200 --> 00:26:14.799
Because uh uh I think they're just allowed to be, right?
00:26:14.960 --> 00:26:16.880
And they figure out their own objects.
00:26:17.039 --> 00:26:24.480
And and I mean, working with Timberplay, we have I mean, everybody knows at this point, like objects have so much of intelligence within them.
00:26:24.720 --> 00:26:43.119
Like, you know, one of the things we really like about Richter Timberplay is like those objects are intelligently done, like there's so much of value inside of it, it's not like you know, uh some plastic things with primary colours on it, which is just stimulating the brain, but it's not really adding value.
00:26:43.279 --> 00:26:49.200
So and I wonder how much of that as well is there is, you know, in terms of that human connection, yeah.
00:26:49.440 --> 00:26:59.359
What you're seeking is is that human connection when you're in space, whether it's connectivity to the environment or connectivity to the other people in that space, to the social environment.
00:26:59.680 --> 00:27:08.240
But at every stage of that equipment being developed or being thought about, there's human human connection, like literally physical touch.
00:27:08.319 --> 00:27:12.720
So from the moment the tree comes down, it's it's it's handled and it's held.
00:27:13.039 --> 00:27:16.640
It's not created by a machine, it's it's shaped and held.
00:27:16.799 --> 00:27:29.440
So that connection from that person who's designing it, building it, creating it, fabricating it, it it's it's human from the very moment that it comes down from the down from the forest.
00:27:29.519 --> 00:27:31.680
And uh, I do think it has an impact.
00:27:31.839 --> 00:27:36.720
I think you know, you're it then goes into creating these spaces that just feel different.
00:27:36.880 --> 00:27:39.279
And um yeah, that's certainly my experience.
00:27:39.839 --> 00:27:40.079
100%.
00:27:40.559 --> 00:27:44.799
I think 100% it impacts because the care you have put into doing things.
00:27:44.960 --> 00:27:50.880
I mean, uh at GLA, we are really proud whenever we say, like, let the world become more digital.
00:27:51.039 --> 00:28:01.759
We understand the value of being digital, but our design, uh you know, with this whole uh this AI trying this whole conversation around AI, right, and design.
00:28:02.079 --> 00:28:05.920
Uh, we are saying let the world embrace AI for design.
00:28:06.160 --> 00:28:07.759
We want to become more analog.
00:28:08.160 --> 00:28:33.680
So now we have started doing more physical models because I said like we want to take pride in the fact that we are humans designing for other humans, and and we understand the the prowess of we're getting digital or um, and of course, we use AI for very specific research purposes, but our designs are getting, we want to get it more and more analog, and I think we are achieving it with every project that we are trying to work.
00:28:33.839 --> 00:28:39.839
It's like the thought, of course, the representation is digital, but the design has always been done in an analog way.
00:28:40.160 --> 00:28:41.279
It could be hand sketches.
00:28:42.480 --> 00:28:57.440
We we had a conversation recently with the uh green and blue um lead for uh a developer here at the UK, and and I think uh Scott Chalmers and his approach to his work, he started with his boots on the ground and his spade in the ground.
00:28:57.519 --> 00:29:28.480
And so his strategic uh planning very much feels like it's it's rooted in that connection, and it feels very similar in this conversation in that your understanding of play is rooted very much in that experiential time uh in playing as a child, but also through these professional developments where you've learned so much through through being on the ground and then you're building it in now at GLA and you're and you're taking that forward.
00:29:28.960 --> 00:29:48.000
What extent does um does the work that you do, how to what extent do you think that the work that you do is having a cultural impact on the way that people perceive, interact, and connect with landscape and as a result also through play?
00:29:48.640 --> 00:29:53.519
Oh, I think uh so our one of our first our first project was in Mumbai.
00:29:53.759 --> 00:29:55.839
That's why our ecosystem grew up in Mumbai.
00:29:56.079 --> 00:30:07.440
I feel right now I'm yet to know the impact it is having on the end user, because you know that's an uh we have not reached a point where we can assess that, and I'm sure it must be good.
00:30:07.599 --> 00:30:18.960
But with our clients, I'll tell you, I think we have been able to have real breakthroughs where we get critiques saying that we have forget about the space, but we have never thought of landscapes in that particular way.
00:30:19.200 --> 00:30:28.400
Like I remember when we were doing um Raheja Parquest, and I was really fortunate to find an amazing client and a great architect, like a collaborator.
00:30:28.640 --> 00:30:31.519
And uh there were three layers of landscape.
00:30:31.599 --> 00:30:39.680
And I was trying to say that as a first project, you know, I really want to bring all the memories of growing up in this country and kind of convince the clients, right?
00:30:39.759 --> 00:30:45.359
You know, there is more to just asking me what what color is this going to be, or what material is this gonna be.
00:30:45.519 --> 00:30:47.839
There's so much more to doing a great landscape.
00:30:48.079 --> 00:31:02.160
And the three uh so there's a podium level of the three levels, and I and I was telling to I was talking to the client and I said, you know, we all have memories of sometime being in a house as in a bungalow, right?
00:31:02.240 --> 00:31:12.960
It could either be yours, either uh it could be your grandparents, because you know, even if you have migrated from a tier two city to Mumbai, you might still have your ancestral home there, right?
00:31:13.119 --> 00:31:18.880
So you still have that memory that, okay, this is how a self-owned compound looks.
00:31:19.039 --> 00:31:25.359
And I said, when when we all transferred to more uh social, it's not social, I mean communal housing modules.
00:31:25.519 --> 00:31:33.519
Uh, I I was telling him that I think the we got everything from the bungalow, but what we really missed out was a garden.
00:31:33.680 --> 00:31:39.039
You got your living rooms, you got your kitchens, you got your bathrooms, you got, and maybe you got them bigger.
00:31:39.359 --> 00:31:49.200
But essentially what you lost was a garden, and then we opened this whole conversation that all landscapes, uh, all gardens are landscapes, but not all landscapes are gardens.
00:31:49.359 --> 00:32:11.920
And we have really evolved that entire podium level, which is not very big to begin with, it's not very large, with this premise that though it's a it's a what you say, like it's it's kind of a public space because with 70 apartments, the there are going to be so many use of people using it, but yet the way it is structured, it feels that it's your personal space.
00:32:12.319 --> 00:32:21.759
And we have got very positive reviews from the people who have moved into the apartment complex, like they really now are spending more time outside their apartment.
00:32:21.920 --> 00:32:23.279
So I feel that's a success.
00:32:23.359 --> 00:32:26.000
I mean, that was the whole point of designing that garden.
00:32:26.799 --> 00:32:31.519
Whatever we designed on that space, it's it's kind of it emulates a sense of time.
00:32:31.680 --> 00:32:35.359
When you look at it, it doesn't feel that it has been done in one instance.
00:32:35.599 --> 00:32:37.279
Because who does a garden in one instance?
00:32:37.519 --> 00:32:40.640
Like if it's your house, you're not going to do your garden in one instance.
00:32:41.279 --> 00:32:43.839
Mine's had three completely different personalities.
00:32:43.920 --> 00:32:49.920
It had the personality of the one that I adopted when I bought the house, which was very hard, landscaped.
00:32:50.079 --> 00:33:03.039
It had the personality that was creating a space for my children when they were young, and then it had the the one when I realized that my children were actually physically larger than the garden, and I no longer needed a lawn for them to play on.
00:33:03.119 --> 00:33:10.160
So I dug it all up, and it's just this very eclectic wild space that the butterflies and birds love now.
00:33:10.240 --> 00:33:12.559
And uh yeah, it's had to be completely different.
00:33:12.640 --> 00:33:20.559
Um, but it's evolved with the family, it's evolved with the with the with the needs of us, and uh yeah, I think it's really important to be able to.
00:33:21.039 --> 00:33:23.039
And that's what I think makes it your own, right?
00:33:23.119 --> 00:33:25.440
And that's why it's it's your garden, it's not mine.
00:33:25.599 --> 00:33:29.759
So I think you know, just these conversations itself and finding clients.
00:33:30.000 --> 00:33:38.559
I feel the stage one of our thing is going to be uh educating the clients themselves more because they're so open to understanding all this.
00:33:38.799 --> 00:33:48.240
Maybe just that as professionals, we have not been successful in ourselves breaking the stereotype that there's more to landscapes than aesthetics of it.
00:33:48.880 --> 00:33:52.799
So I feel right now we are pretty happy that, and it happens across projects.
00:33:52.880 --> 00:34:01.440
It's just this even a small backyard, we are working with people and we have been able to convince them, and then they start looking at the same thing from a different lens.
00:34:01.839 --> 00:34:03.599
And for us, I think it's a win.
00:34:03.759 --> 00:34:06.559
And that is essentially what we are trying to now do with play.
00:34:07.039 --> 00:34:18.880
So, what learning do you think you can share for everybody else in terms of what can landscape architecture in India teach the rest of the world?
00:34:19.039 --> 00:34:21.440
And what has the rest of the world taught you?
00:34:21.599 --> 00:34:34.400
I mean, you've talked about global ecosystems influencing the spaces, but in terms of that learning and theoretical ecosystem, what are the global thoughts, learnings, influences that you're bringing back to India?
00:34:34.480 --> 00:34:35.760
And what can we learn from you?
00:34:36.000 --> 00:34:41.199
I think, I think, you know, when when you first talk about India is just it's a rich culture.
00:34:41.519 --> 00:34:48.079
I mean, you know, it's it's the size of India and and and the and the time frame it has existed for, right?
00:34:48.320 --> 00:34:51.679
We just have a collection of such wonderful stories.
00:34:51.840 --> 00:34:58.400
So I feel like in it, it's so rich with this, it's cultural uh what do you say, the treasure box.
00:34:58.639 --> 00:35:07.840
And um, if you dive deeper into it, I think there's just so much to learn as uh first the the whole idea of coexistence, right?
00:35:08.000 --> 00:35:12.880
Because shared spaces demand a different kind of outlook towards how you interact with each other.
00:35:13.199 --> 00:35:18.239
And trust me, even for its size, I think it's phenomenal how we coexist.
00:35:18.480 --> 00:35:21.280
I think that's something like, and you know, it's not that obvious.
00:35:21.440 --> 00:35:25.920
I've traveled the world and it doesn't seem that obvious that it's so easy to coexist.
00:35:26.239 --> 00:35:36.000
And um I think so, even when we are doing communal spaces, uh, I think it's a bit easier for us because I feel people are much more used to coexisting.
00:35:36.159 --> 00:35:57.440
Yeah in terms of I think uh technically we are yet to go there, and I I will agree that we are we are ourselves wanting to push the boundaries of uh technically being able to solve issues uh through landscape, and those could be broad spectrum ecological issues, but again, those could be something as simple as designing the best play space.
00:35:58.239 --> 00:36:00.880
So it doesn't always have to be like a planetary impact, right?
00:36:01.039 --> 00:36:04.800
Even if you can affect two people in your life, I think you have done your part.
00:36:05.119 --> 00:36:19.840
So, so I think that's another lesson we are learning that we just have the opportunity to work with such diverse groups that the learning curve, you know, the theories which we would develop are going to be easy to test in this part of the world.
00:36:20.000 --> 00:36:23.920
And this is what, like, because you know, we are very theoretical as well in our approach.
00:36:24.800 --> 00:36:27.039
Theoretical and philosophical, I feel we feel this.
00:36:27.280 --> 00:36:37.760
I I've I've always found that when we've had conversations, there's a there's a there's a depth and a breadth to to what you say that that is um yeah, is very much beyond the surface.
00:36:37.840 --> 00:36:46.719
And I think that then also impacts what you're doing, much in the way that I said, you know, is m many hands have touched the wood that creates the equipment and it feels different.
00:36:46.880 --> 00:36:54.400
Many thoughts and feelings and conversations have gone into the work that you do, and it just ultimately ends up being a different approach.
00:36:54.800 --> 00:36:55.360
I I think so.
00:36:55.440 --> 00:37:01.280
So I I was telling somebody, I said, I think we are good landscape architects, but we have better storytellers at GLA.
00:37:02.239 --> 00:37:09.360
See, we we have we again like we have been fortunate to work with wonderful people, and that's not having built work.
00:37:09.760 --> 00:37:14.800
So it's we we do have the ability to tell great stories and then back it with technical rigor.
00:37:15.199 --> 00:37:36.079
I think as well, you very you talked very early in this conversation about negotiating negotiated space and negotiated kind of agreements in space, and and this again, it feels like this again is coming back to that, which uh which really validates that kind of depth of your thinking, and you can feel it in the way that you talk.
00:37:36.239 --> 00:37:55.360
So so, in terms of those key lessons that you could uh you know support other designers that are working internationally, what is it that they need to understand about that cultural context that we've not already talked about before designing for children, for families, for multi-generational Greeks?
00:37:56.000 --> 00:38:05.280
I personally feel you know the biggest challenge is that all the play spaces in the world are always going to be designed by adults for children.
00:38:05.519 --> 00:38:09.679
So it's always, yeah, and and I think that's the toughest thing to solve.
00:38:09.920 --> 00:38:17.119
It's like how exactly then you see, because uh you all have lived that part, but maybe you don't everybody doesn't remember.
00:38:17.280 --> 00:38:23.920
So I think you know that's what makes designing play spaces the most amazing experience is you get to dive back.
00:38:24.639 --> 00:38:31.840
I mean, I I I mean, technically, I'll tell you because we are in this whole phase of designing at the same time four different spaces.
00:38:32.000 --> 00:38:46.239
Uh, we have made this uh anthropometric ergonomic graph at our office, and we say like everything now you need to bend in your knees and understand that somebody's gonna look at it from that height, and it's changed the team's perspective so much.
00:38:47.039 --> 00:38:59.920
I said the same way you need to go back and think like, is this and I said, You I mean, we have somebody at our office right now who comes from Himachal Pradesh, it's the northern part of India, and from a very scenic rural mountain town.
00:39:00.239 --> 00:39:02.960
It's extreme, it's absolutely scenic.
00:39:03.199 --> 00:39:08.719
And for grading, whenever we are doing grading exercises, I have to always relate the think of it.
00:39:08.880 --> 00:39:14.880
Maybe you have crossed a rivulet like that, and she is able to remember and said that's exactly what we are doing here.
00:39:15.119 --> 00:39:17.280
It's just creating that experience over a lock.
00:39:17.440 --> 00:39:19.760
So I'm saying that you all have seen it.
00:39:20.079 --> 00:39:28.800
We just now have to bring it in the technical rigor and and uh kind of you know, uh revive those lost, forgotten spaces of our childhood.
00:39:29.119 --> 00:39:38.159
Get your get your bare feet back in the water to remember what it feels like to hear the sound, see the reflections, just bring that back to life in the world.
00:39:38.320 --> 00:39:42.320
I mean, you exactly said it's spot on because uh exactly.
00:39:42.400 --> 00:39:50.719
I mean, I don't believe a lot of kids even know what it might feel to just look at the reflection in a natural water edge growing up in a city.
00:39:50.880 --> 00:39:52.480
And I think this is an amazing book.
00:39:52.559 --> 00:39:56.480
I was just going through, I just started with called Letters to the Leaders of China.
00:39:56.639 --> 00:40:09.599
And he talks about uh, I think it's a Beijing University research, which says that uh humans earn for the experience of looking at water as much as they earn for food.
00:40:10.239 --> 00:40:14.239
The subconscious uh pull towards water.
00:40:14.400 --> 00:40:28.719
I think because we have lost that philosophical angle of design, we have deprived ourselves of those experiences of just designing a corner when one can just look at himself or herself in a shallow uh and that's not what a swimming pool does.
00:40:28.880 --> 00:40:32.559
I mean, deep water bodies do not reflect, so that's not the same.
00:40:32.719 --> 00:40:34.400
Yeah, no, not at all.
00:40:35.119 --> 00:40:42.159
So we've got a question that we often um ask our well, we we we always ask our guests.
00:40:42.400 --> 00:40:44.880
So you are completely obligated to answer it.
00:40:45.840 --> 00:40:50.960
Um what we like to do is just um focusing on play.
00:40:51.199 --> 00:41:00.880
Uh, if you could change one thing to improve play uh and children's access to play, children's experience of play, what would that one thing be?
00:41:01.199 --> 00:41:06.719
I think reducing the aversion to risk, we need more spaces in play which allow risk.
00:41:06.880 --> 00:41:08.880
So I I feel that's losing.
00:41:08.960 --> 00:41:16.880
And I would really want to reintroduce that element, you know, because again, it's very critical that you learn these things early on in your life.
00:41:17.039 --> 00:41:19.920
I mean, I feel it's beyond play at this point.
00:41:20.239 --> 00:41:23.119
So that one thing if I have to identify it would be risk.
00:41:23.199 --> 00:41:31.519
We need to design for risk, an actual risk, not just oh that oh, but somebody will have to step on something.
00:41:31.599 --> 00:41:35.280
It's like, well, no, actually, that that yeah.
00:41:36.159 --> 00:41:52.480
Again, like not that unleashed dog, but I'm just saying, like no, but but I I feel like yeah, but I think it it's critical because uh we also see like a lot of kids growing around us and parents and specifically talking about how it's affecting not taking risks early on.
00:41:52.639 --> 00:41:55.760
Yeah, kind of it's it's shaping humans in a very different way.
00:41:56.000 --> 00:42:01.360
So if it has to start on a playground, I think definitely designing to integrate that would be great.
00:42:01.599 --> 00:42:03.920
Well, I think that's brilliant, Path.
00:42:04.079 --> 00:42:08.480
All that is left is for me to say this has been a really interesting conversation.
00:42:08.639 --> 00:42:10.480
I this is really fun for me as well.
00:42:10.880 --> 00:42:11.280
Amazing.
00:42:11.440 --> 00:42:15.920
Well, it would be great to do it again sometime because there is so much more to talk about.
00:42:16.079 --> 00:42:21.920
I know with your experience and your work, but um, for now I just want to say thank you so much for your time.
00:42:22.239 --> 00:42:22.719
Absolutely.
00:42:22.800 --> 00:42:24.559
Thank you so much for having me over.
00:42:24.800 --> 00:42:26.320
I really enjoyed it.
00:00:02.160 --> 00:00:08.960
Inherently, landscapes cannot be as resolved as architecture because they are living things.
00:00:09.599 --> 00:00:13.039
Not being resolved allows that expansion of the brain, you know.
00:00:13.119 --> 00:00:16.000
Like I feel we are giving people too many things which are resolved.
00:00:16.079 --> 00:00:24.320
And I don't personally believe that's a healthy uh way of living when everything is just provided and because you you start losing critical thought.
00:00:25.760 --> 00:00:33.119
Today on the podcast we have with us Path Divakan, and he is the founder of Great Landscape Architects in India.
00:00:33.280 --> 00:00:40.000
So experienced in design but also really eloquent about the subject of play.
00:00:40.159 --> 00:00:42.240
So, Path, welcome to the podcast.
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Thank you so much, Beth.
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It's a pleasure to be there again.
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It's so nice to speak with you again, and um, yeah, we're really looking forward to this conversation.
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So I wanted to start just by offering you the opportunity to give us a little bit of background and about the flavor of the work that you do, the kind of projects you work on, and um and what it's like working in your line of work in a city like Mumbai.
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GLE is something which I started six almost six years ago in the 2020, September of 2020, uh, after I came back from New York.
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And uh most of our practice is either like our projects are in Mumbai, uh Alibag, and we are doing some work outside of the state as well.
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Though our office is based in the city of Pune, that's where I grew up, but but but majority of our commissions either are in Mumbai or with people from Mumbai.
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So we work primarily in high-end residential sector.
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We are doing some uh experimental work in institutions, with institutions.
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Uh, we are doing private residences.
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So I I believe like we we are working across the spectrum, which is really interesting when I think you're starting a new practice, is where you don't want to be pigeonholed immediately, you know.
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Like whenever people ask me what excites me the most, I just say it's design and it's irrespective of the scale or intent.
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It's it's it's the joy of designing.
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Yeah.
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So I think we have been very fortunate to be to be, you know, alongside great collaborators, as well as finding some really good clients which uh which more than the built work are interested in the process.
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Because see, as a new firm, we don't have a lot of built work, and that has worked up really well for us, is because whatever clientile we have been able to uh work with so far have essentially trusted us with the process.
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And I just feel uh, you know, for our profession it is so important because um it's you know, in and this is not an Indian thing.
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I believe that in most of the world, it is very easy to reduce design into just the aesthetics of it.
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So I really enjoy working with people who are more interested in the process, and of course, if the process is great, the outcome is gonna be fantastic.
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Yeah, that opens up.
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I mean, just in that, I've written so many notes, I've got so many questions that just come out of that short introduction.
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So thank you for that.
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But I'm gonna start with when you talk about high-end residential sector, what does that look like?
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What sets it apart?
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I I think you know, with this limited five years of my exposure, because I always uh take my life in two parts.
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Okay.
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It's pre-United States and post-United States.
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And the reason for that is like I got a nice exit for six years, and that allowed me to look at India from the outside.
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You know, you you identify things which are sometimes not possible when you're within the system you're looking at, right?
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So after coming back, I think the five years where I've been carefully observing is like what exactly is high-end?
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You know, because at the end, when you're talking about high-end residences and we are being commissioned by, let's say, developers, right?
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Essentially, we are selling a commodity for an end user, which is not us.
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So, so it's it's it it, you know, like every day we have this question of all of us that what exactly constitutes a high-end design?
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Is it your association with plants?
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Is it your association with uh the trip you took to Europe or any other part of the world, which you tag as a luxury destination?
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Or is it something very vague, or is it just the fact that nobody else has it makes it luxurious?
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So it's it's very interesting because landscape is still, and I would say, uh very what you say, like with full responsibility, like it's uh it's still a very primitive field in India.
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We are yet to explore the authenticity of what landscapes are capable of.
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In five years, we have understood most of them mean certain association of planting.
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They have seen in seven-star and five-star properties, um, certain materials which we have seen outdoors, but primarily I would say it's planting because we we don't yet have the culture of public spaces the way traditionally and uh the way I would I have worked on with Michael's office in New York.
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We are yet to explore that here.
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So until then, I think the associations are going to be broadly based on planting and materiality, yeah, yeah, more than the experience.
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Yeah.
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And I suppose that comes back to when you're saying the clients that you work with are trusting you with the process, they're almost trusting you to interpret to some extent what that high-end uh label might mean and bring your own knowledge, experience, and that trust enables you to almost do a bit of culture change around people's understanding of landscape and the field of landscape architecture as well.
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It sounds like you're in a really interesting uh transition.
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Talking of transitions, you referenced there that you spent some time in the United States, you said there was pre-United States and there was post-United States.
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I'm really interested to know.
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Um, tell us a little bit about that.
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What took you to the US?
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What did you experience when you were there?
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What were the clear differences and similarities about being in the US to being in India and working within that field?
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And when you say that it gave you a new lens looking back at India, you know, that's a really interesting uh uh area that I'd really like to explore.
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Well, absolutely.
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I think because those are one of the very fond memories I have uh, you know, in 36 years of being here, it's like the six years, uh close to six years, which I spent um first at Cornell, two years where I was doing my master's, and uh then uh two years at MVVA, Michael Van Walkenberg.
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Uh and both were so distinct in their education because I believe, like uh, so I studied architecture prior to doing my master's in landscape, right?
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So then I happened to work with a fantastic firm in Bangalore for a year before I applied for master's, and then I went to Cornell.
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So for for me, right, like first the shift, and I I believe I took like at least six, seven, eight years to do that, is to first shift the approach that landscape is not does not mean architecture of the outdoors.
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It it does not mean that you're doing spaces the way an architect would do, but just that uh there's no roof or there's no Z access, a defined Z access to it, right?
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So Cornell for me was the first step, which I think the first time I really found myself uh and realized that what I really enjoy is thinking big systems.
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Like that gives me the most amount of joy is like thinking big systems and understanding how they all are interconnected.
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How can you expand your thought from a site to a planetary scale?
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And and with Michael's office, exactly the opposite happens that okay, all this thing, and then how exactly do you uh condense that and uh use it with the right rigor to solve a site?
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Yeah, bringing that global perspective back into the the site that you're working on.
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Well, I mean, just before, when you were talking about um that, you talked about what landscapes are capable of.
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Yeah.
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And um, yeah, I suppose that so what sort of things for the uninitiated, what sort of things are landscapes capable of?
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I think I think five years ago I myself was finding and pretty much on the fence uh to figure out like was landscape a subset of architecture of something else?
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Uh were we supposed to sit on the table with architects and urban planners as we have been struggling for maybe last century?
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And is this something we want to do?
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But in the recent two years, I believe I've become certain that the scope of landscape is way beyond all this.
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I mean, I personally, and again, I say it with a lot of responsibility that I feel that architecture is a subset of it, like landscape.
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Again, I myself feel design itself is a subset of landscape, like landscapes are a way to think, right?
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Like we are working on something called, and it's a very GLA project right now.
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It's like, but I just want to put it out there in the world.
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Is we are we are working on this concept of a negotiated civilization.
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It's like, would there be an alternate way where we all kind of realize this world in a negotiated manner, not when we are pushed to a point where we have to give in?
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That's not a negotiation.
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Like, have we are we are we thinking, like, is there a different way to think?
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And I just believe landscape, this whole sphere of landscape is such a dominant force which can help us realize that.
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It's like just how do you behave in space?
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How do you conceive a space?
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Um, how do you interact with objects in that space?
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And trust me, like the way if you start diving deeper in this whole phenomenon of um what landscapes can bring back.
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And I was talking to uh Peter Huyken the other day from Richter, and we were talking the same thing.
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I think he agreed, is that landscapes have this ability to bring back your primal intelligence.
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And I and I think we both agreed, and he loved it so much because I said, like I said, we are losing it as we urganize, and it's not such a great thing to lose that intelligence.
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No, not too, you know, as as yeah.
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So I feel landscapes allow because inherently landscapes cannot be as resolved as architecture because they are living things, right?
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So so not being resolved allows that expansion of the brain, you know.
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Like I feel we are giving people too many things which are resolved, and I don't personally believe that's a healthy uh way of living when everything is just provided, and yeah, because you you start losing critical thought, and and uh people always argue I'm not saying like the laws, okay, maybe somebody doing an apartment complex and giving an extremely resolved layout, but I'm saying that the habit of uh getting living in resolved environments starts uh uh spilling into everything you do.
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You see, like basically you start losing critical thought.
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It's not like you just lose critical thought on how to live, it's you start losing critical thought, the ability to think critically.
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And I know this is deeply philosophical, but we are firm believers that urban environments need less resolved spaces and landscape can do that.
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No, I think it's amazing, and what I'm hearing, what I'm wanting to get you to maybe talk about now is the word play is coming to mind.
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Obviously, this is play attention, play is our passion, and uh the ideas about critical thinking, resilience, things not being resolved, creating self-determined play opportunities that aren't resolved and fixed and set, enable that critical thinking, you know, the this idea of resilience and failure and mistakes and things not always being neat edges and living landscape, changing environments, that all to me is just sparking off all of what play can do and environments that support play can do.
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So I'm gonna bring you to the subject of play and within all of this context, your current work, your work in America, the learning that you've already talked about.
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Where does play fit into this?
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How is your how is your connection with play as a designer and as a human?
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Oh, I think I think play is the the most quintessential, like it's it's the most fundamental thing of spaces.
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I mean, I really believe the space itself should embody that spirit of play if you want to really achieve a good space.
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And my association, like okay, so if you have to go, I I think we'll go with my childhood association later because it's experiential, but now I've theorized it because you know now I'm looking at it the lens of an adult.
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But I think my association with designing play or with working with uh uh Timberplay Richter starts in New York with MEVA because there I'm very fortunate to be part of teams which are working on the Obama Presidential Library, uh, for instance, which just got inaugurated yesterday and the play area has come up really well.
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Ah, congratulations.
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So, you know, I yeah, so that was those were my early associations with looking at play as a part of landscape.
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Before that, I'd pretty much never given it the thought.
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I I and I I will accept it.
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Like, I've never thought that okay, play could be a specialized area, right, of any spaces, not just public parks.
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So I think my technical knowledge, if I have to technically solve a playground, I would give the credit to Michael's office for sure.
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And and but if you ask me, like in the last couple of years, as GLA keeps evolving, and right now at our office, we are in this phase where we are actively working on four different play areas, right?
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So we are in the zone.
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So I think this is just so perfectly timed because all of our thoughts as a as it as the office are just about understanding and uh you know diving back into our childhood to know that is this something we would have enjoyed.
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And um, so so because for this podcast, you know, I was going through a list of things I would want to or I wanted to remember about how what play was growing up.
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And uh, you know, if and I'm sure like all of our experiences are different, but if you're growing up in India during the 90s, most of your experiences of play is not object-related, it's space related and it's company related because you have your friends that you you would just make up things at max what maybe is as a road becoming a cricket pitch.
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Okay, so you would need a bat and a ball, that's it.
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Otherwise, like it's not very equipment heavy.
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But today I realize, you know, like like most of our childhood, like early childhood, let's say you pick up a game like hide and seek, for us, the entire neighborhood was the field, right?
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Because the architecture and the social structure allowed us to jump fences, go into our neighbor's property, hide there.
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I can't imagine something like that happening today, you know, where houses have become fortresses.
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I can't imagine, like if you're growing up in a bungalow and you just see kids jumping your fence and hiding and a family being okay with it.
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And you know, it just takes me back.
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Like, you know, so it's so critical that the spaces, that you get the spaces right if you want authentic play.
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And that it's missing, which is I I'm not very happy about it.
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And and I think the more dangerous part of it is it's being replaced by sport.
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I mean, sport has its own place and it's very important, I'm sure.
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But I'm saying play is not sport, they are two totally different things, and you cannot replace one with the other.
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It's not a self-directed or or as you say, this unresolved characteristic of space that is a really key part of play.
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Is it it's always unresolved.
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It's the borderline of chaos, it's the threshold of uncertainty that keeps you in that unable.
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And I think yeah, that's yeah, and what what what you've described there is this is happening across the globe, that space is being taken away, repurposed to create the barriers to that very much that free play.
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So when you were in the USA and you were working there with um MVVA, you were working on these play projects.
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You're you're talking about how much learning went on for you there.
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Were there particular projects there that you worked on that that will really stand out for you?
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Because I I believe you were you worked on the Tulsa gathering place?
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Yes, so the phase two, the phase two of that, and again that uh it was one of the most uh what do you say the amazing experience, the technicality, the solving of uh the spaces uh at the gathering place.
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And the phase one was already done, I think, way before I joined, and phase two was still pending.
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So it was a very small team of me and uh my two seniors, and and we really enjoyed it.
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The Obama uh library, I was on and off.
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I spent some time, but that just happened to be the perfect time when the play area was being designed.
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So I was fortunate in that regard.
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I did work extensively on the Waller Creek, the Waterloo Park, um uh sector nine, there's parts of large projects with the firm.
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So I think of the three projects, I would say all equally stand out today.
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If you go, all of them are built.
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Um, and they've I think they've come out really well.
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And it just feels nice to know that okay, you were a part of that process and you helped realize that.
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And I feel, you know, all these things also such a strong underpinning for GLA.
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I mean, I mean, today everything we address, irrespective of the scale, I believe has the same rigor which I learned working with world-class designers.
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It's like I I always tell my team, like it's it's not about the scale, it's the rigor, it's the thought behind.
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I mean, somebody could give you a thousand square feet versus a lakh square feet, and that that should not matter.
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You know, the rigor should be the same for how you solve it.
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And I feel that's exactly what we want to now start doing in India with play areas, because as I said, I firmly believe that the loss of agency is a it is not something to be proud of, especially with young kids.
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Like, I feel most of my life today what I'm doing at GLA, right?
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You never know subconsciously these how to identify thresholds, how to jump over things.
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Like, they have taught me today to critically solve the issues which we face every day.
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I mean, as a young practice, you you are wearing all the hats.
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It's it's pretty much like you're doing everything.
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So I feel like so much of it, maybe could be credited to the way we grew up, you know, through assess risk.
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And uh, so maybe, maybe we're learning all this when we were kids growing up on how to assess risk.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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And is that really like I would not want to lose that, right?
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Because I still remember, I mean, the the I mean the smallest of expressions could be before jumping the fence, just trying to understand if the neighbor's dog was unleashed or was unleashed.
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I mean, I mean, come on, that is going to teach you things.
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But but I'm saying the really the I mean, what we want to discuss right now is that how do you get those experiences?
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I'm not saying like you need to have a dog which is unleashed, but I'm saying how do you get those experiences uh in urban settings which are extremely gated, extremely gated, extremely structured.
00:19:54.960 --> 00:19:58.559
And sure there are so there are many more reasons than design for it.
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Uh, but I'm saying like if if we have to solve for these issues, then I think play and play area could be just a fantastic play to start, uh, a place to start, you know, like just start, and it should not be just for kids.
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I mean, Adults can play as well.
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It's not just for kids.
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Absolutely.
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That multi-generational play and the this conversation we have about this kind of global change in the culture of play or in the culture of childhood.
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Um, although it's different in different locations, it there is a commonality about a sense of reduction or slightly more restriction.
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A couple of things.
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One, I just want to say when you talked about those three playgrounds, your face absolutely lit up.
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You can feel the joy through the screen, and it's that's amazing.
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Um, yeah, absolutely.
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I hear you when you talk about risk and resilience being foundational in you being able to deliver these positive experiences as a business, as an organization, as a design agency.
00:20:57.599 --> 00:21:04.559
But um Bob Hughes, who was a play theorist here in the UK, he wrote about um compensatory spaces.
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So the idea of losing that free world play experience, therefore, as you know, the responsibility we have to create uh environments that that give back that experience.
00:21:18.799 --> 00:21:20.480
And that's what I'm hearing from you.
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You're saying that there's walls that are changing the culture and the way that children play and move through the the cities and through the towns and through the neighborhoods.
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So, how do we then build back in those experiences and experiences that have the same impact?
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Have you found particular things that you look to that you go, this this works, or is it always particularly site specific or project specific?
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No, I think it's it's of course it's um I mean Okay, so I feel play is universal for sure, but I think these solutions end up being very site specific because there's such Cultural and uh socioeconomic drivers for um you know addressing each uh each space.
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But but I feel right now where we are in India, where let's say okay, if we only specifically target uh highly urbanized spaces, let's talk only about the metros, right?
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So there I see like um more and more area, I mean public parks infrastructure is a whole different conversation.
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And I think right now I don't have that authority like to authoratively state what is going wrong with that system.
00:22:35.440 --> 00:22:51.519
But I feel like as more are like or more on the optimistic side, I believe as more and more area keeps coming under private ownership, you know, I think it it is the right time to introduce the intel the spatial intelligence which landscapes can offer.
00:22:51.680 --> 00:23:04.960
And as I said, like maybe it's beyond play, like what essentially we are addressing, uh, as you are addressing as well, is maybe just something which could be even beyond play, is just getting this primal intelligence black.
00:23:05.200 --> 00:23:09.839
And I trying to design spaces which allow those experiences, you know.
00:23:09.920 --> 00:23:14.000
So I I always want to now find ways that how can we expand the scope?
00:23:14.160 --> 00:23:35.279
The client coming to us that can we identify a corner and have the best play equipment there from there to how to expand that is it possible that the entire landscape is designed like a play, and these objects are just spread across in a way that aesthetically they're amazing, like they're they're beautiful, but at the same time, the functionality is tenfold.
00:23:36.000 --> 00:23:37.359
And not, I mean, again, right?
00:23:37.440 --> 00:23:47.920
Like it's so funny, like kids in school are always in classrooms and then they come to playgrounds and then they're just in a playground, so they're always constricted, yeah, contained by something or the other.
00:23:48.079 --> 00:23:49.119
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:23:50.000 --> 00:23:51.599
I don't know if that's very healthy.
00:23:51.839 --> 00:23:54.160
I don't think I grew up very confined, you know.
00:23:54.240 --> 00:24:03.279
Like I was very fortunate to grow up in a family which really allowed us to be free and make those choices about where you are and what you were doing.
00:24:03.519 --> 00:24:04.160
Yeah.
00:24:04.880 --> 00:24:09.359
So take me back a little bit because I've never been to India.
00:24:09.519 --> 00:24:13.440
I don't know what the experience of being a child in India is like.
00:24:13.680 --> 00:24:19.680
Uh, and you know, you talk about going back to the 90s and it not being so much about objects, but being about space.
00:24:19.920 --> 00:24:24.400
Obviously, we're we're no longer in the 90s as much as we might like to be.
00:24:24.559 --> 00:24:27.039
Uh, we we have moved on, things are different.
00:24:27.359 --> 00:24:30.160
So, what was it like and what is it like now?
00:24:30.240 --> 00:24:34.799
What are the key pressures and key kind of focus for children at the moment in India?
00:24:35.119 --> 00:24:49.359
I think you know, I mean, I look at my nieces and nephews, and I I also want to understand, as you say, right, like space is one constraint, but there's so much which has changed with academics, with time, uh, with parents being around.
00:24:49.519 --> 00:24:56.480
Like, you know, I I I just I cannot authoritively tell you that okay, this this one, two, three reasons are what is causing it.
00:24:56.640 --> 00:25:05.519
But I can talk spatially that spatially kids are not being given rich spaces anymore where they can unfold.
00:25:05.599 --> 00:25:12.559
They really aren't, like this whole idea of Maidans, which are open grounds, or but and and I'm sure it's not true for all the cities.
00:25:12.799 --> 00:25:16.079
I'm sure there must be few cities who have a really robust life.
00:25:16.160 --> 00:25:22.319
But if I have to talk about my city of Pune, people will always come up, but no, there are three parks.
00:25:22.480 --> 00:25:25.680
But I'm saying, look at the size of the city.
00:25:26.000 --> 00:25:28.240
What are in terms of accessibility?
00:25:28.480 --> 00:25:31.039
I mean, they're not even 20% accessible.
00:25:31.200 --> 00:25:39.119
I mean, a park which is 10 kilometers away is not really an accessible park for a kid to spend his afternoon and informal settings, you know.
00:25:39.200 --> 00:25:44.799
Sometimes when we are uh either walking in Mumbai or we are in our car looking out.
00:25:45.119 --> 00:25:54.160
I believe sometimes informal housing are offering kids much richer experiences than formalized housing.
00:25:54.480 --> 00:25:56.480
Because I think it's less restrictive.
00:25:56.640 --> 00:26:01.839
You have to make up things because it's not formalized because of resources or whatever it might be.
00:26:02.079 --> 00:26:10.960
I sometimes believe, like, are they actually really enjoying the childhood more than formalized structures and you know, gifted communities?
00:26:11.200 --> 00:26:14.799
Because uh uh I think they're just allowed to be, right?
00:26:14.960 --> 00:26:16.880
And they figure out their own objects.
00:26:17.039 --> 00:26:24.480
And and I mean, working with Timberplay, we have I mean, everybody knows at this point, like objects have so much of intelligence within them.
00:26:24.720 --> 00:26:43.119
Like, you know, one of the things we really like about Richter Timberplay is like those objects are intelligently done, like there's so much of value inside of it, it's not like you know, uh some plastic things with primary colours on it, which is just stimulating the brain, but it's not really adding value.
00:26:43.279 --> 00:26:49.200
So and I wonder how much of that as well is there is, you know, in terms of that human connection, yeah.
00:26:49.440 --> 00:26:59.359
What you're seeking is is that human connection when you're in space, whether it's connectivity to the environment or connectivity to the other people in that space, to the social environment.
00:26:59.680 --> 00:27:08.240
But at every stage of that equipment being developed or being thought about, there's human human connection, like literally physical touch.
00:27:08.319 --> 00:27:12.720
So from the moment the tree comes down, it's it's it's handled and it's held.
00:27:13.039 --> 00:27:16.640
It's not created by a machine, it's it's shaped and held.
00:27:16.799 --> 00:27:29.440
So that connection from that person who's designing it, building it, creating it, fabricating it, it it's it's human from the very moment that it comes down from the down from the forest.
00:27:29.519 --> 00:27:31.680
And uh, I do think it has an impact.
00:27:31.839 --> 00:27:36.720
I think you know, you're it then goes into creating these spaces that just feel different.
00:27:36.880 --> 00:27:39.279
And um yeah, that's certainly my experience.
00:27:39.839 --> 00:27:40.079
100%.
00:27:40.559 --> 00:27:44.799
I think 100% it impacts because the care you have put into doing things.
00:27:44.960 --> 00:27:50.880
I mean, uh at GLA, we are really proud whenever we say, like, let the world become more digital.
00:27:51.039 --> 00:28:01.759
We understand the value of being digital, but our design, uh you know, with this whole uh this AI trying this whole conversation around AI, right, and design.
00:28:02.079 --> 00:28:05.920
Uh, we are saying let the world embrace AI for design.
00:28:06.160 --> 00:28:07.759
We want to become more analog.
00:28:08.160 --> 00:28:33.680
So now we have started doing more physical models because I said like we want to take pride in the fact that we are humans designing for other humans, and and we understand the the prowess of we're getting digital or um, and of course, we use AI for very specific research purposes, but our designs are getting, we want to get it more and more analog, and I think we are achieving it with every project that we are trying to work.
00:28:33.839 --> 00:28:39.839
It's like the thought, of course, the representation is digital, but the design has always been done in an analog way.
00:28:40.160 --> 00:28:41.279
It could be hand sketches.
00:28:42.480 --> 00:28:57.440
We we had a conversation recently with the uh green and blue um lead for uh a developer here at the UK, and and I think uh Scott Chalmers and his approach to his work, he started with his boots on the ground and his spade in the ground.
00:28:57.519 --> 00:29:28.480
And so his strategic uh planning very much feels like it's it's rooted in that connection, and it feels very similar in this conversation in that your understanding of play is rooted very much in that experiential time uh in playing as a child, but also through these professional developments where you've learned so much through through being on the ground and then you're building it in now at GLA and you're and you're taking that forward.
00:29:28.960 --> 00:29:48.000
What extent does um does the work that you do, how to what extent do you think that the work that you do is having a cultural impact on the way that people perceive, interact, and connect with landscape and as a result also through play?
00:29:48.640 --> 00:29:53.519
Oh, I think uh so our one of our first our first project was in Mumbai.
00:29:53.759 --> 00:29:55.839
That's why our ecosystem grew up in Mumbai.
00:29:56.079 --> 00:30:07.440
I feel right now I'm yet to know the impact it is having on the end user, because you know that's an uh we have not reached a point where we can assess that, and I'm sure it must be good.
00:30:07.599 --> 00:30:18.960
But with our clients, I'll tell you, I think we have been able to have real breakthroughs where we get critiques saying that we have forget about the space, but we have never thought of landscapes in that particular way.
00:30:19.200 --> 00:30:28.400
Like I remember when we were doing um Raheja Parquest, and I was really fortunate to find an amazing client and a great architect, like a collaborator.
00:30:28.640 --> 00:30:31.519
And uh there were three layers of landscape.
00:30:31.599 --> 00:30:39.680
And I was trying to say that as a first project, you know, I really want to bring all the memories of growing up in this country and kind of convince the clients, right?
00:30:39.759 --> 00:30:45.359
You know, there is more to just asking me what what color is this going to be, or what material is this gonna be.
00:30:45.519 --> 00:30:47.839
There's so much more to doing a great landscape.
00:30:48.079 --> 00:31:02.160
And the three uh so there's a podium level of the three levels, and I and I was telling to I was talking to the client and I said, you know, we all have memories of sometime being in a house as in a bungalow, right?
00:31:02.240 --> 00:31:12.960
It could either be yours, either uh it could be your grandparents, because you know, even if you have migrated from a tier two city to Mumbai, you might still have your ancestral home there, right?
00:31:13.119 --> 00:31:18.880
So you still have that memory that, okay, this is how a self-owned compound looks.
00:31:19.039 --> 00:31:25.359
And I said, when when we all transferred to more uh social, it's not social, I mean communal housing modules.
00:31:25.519 --> 00:31:33.519
Uh, I I was telling him that I think the we got everything from the bungalow, but what we really missed out was a garden.
00:31:33.680 --> 00:31:39.039
You got your living rooms, you got your kitchens, you got your bathrooms, you got, and maybe you got them bigger.
00:31:39.359 --> 00:31:49.200
But essentially what you lost was a garden, and then we opened this whole conversation that all landscapes, uh, all gardens are landscapes, but not all landscapes are gardens.
00:31:49.359 --> 00:32:11.920
And we have really evolved that entire podium level, which is not very big to begin with, it's not very large, with this premise that though it's a it's a what you say, like it's it's kind of a public space because with 70 apartments, the there are going to be so many use of people using it, but yet the way it is structured, it feels that it's your personal space.
00:32:12.319 --> 00:32:21.759
And we have got very positive reviews from the people who have moved into the apartment complex, like they really now are spending more time outside their apartment.
00:32:21.920 --> 00:32:23.279
So I feel that's a success.
00:32:23.359 --> 00:32:26.000
I mean, that was the whole point of designing that garden.
00:32:26.799 --> 00:32:31.519
Whatever we designed on that space, it's it's kind of it emulates a sense of time.
00:32:31.680 --> 00:32:35.359
When you look at it, it doesn't feel that it has been done in one instance.
00:32:35.599 --> 00:32:37.279
Because who does a garden in one instance?
00:32:37.519 --> 00:32:40.640
Like if it's your house, you're not going to do your garden in one instance.
00:32:41.279 --> 00:32:43.839
Mine's had three completely different personalities.
00:32:43.920 --> 00:32:49.920
It had the personality of the one that I adopted when I bought the house, which was very hard, landscaped.
00:32:50.079 --> 00:33:03.039
It had the personality that was creating a space for my children when they were young, and then it had the the one when I realized that my children were actually physically larger than the garden, and I no longer needed a lawn for them to play on.
00:33:03.119 --> 00:33:10.160
So I dug it all up, and it's just this very eclectic wild space that the butterflies and birds love now.
00:33:10.240 --> 00:33:12.559
And uh yeah, it's had to be completely different.
00:33:12.640 --> 00:33:20.559
Um, but it's evolved with the family, it's evolved with the with the with the needs of us, and uh yeah, I think it's really important to be able to.
00:33:21.039 --> 00:33:23.039
And that's what I think makes it your own, right?
00:33:23.119 --> 00:33:25.440
And that's why it's it's your garden, it's not mine.
00:33:25.599 --> 00:33:29.759
So I think you know, just these conversations itself and finding clients.
00:33:30.000 --> 00:33:38.559
I feel the stage one of our thing is going to be uh educating the clients themselves more because they're so open to understanding all this.
00:33:38.799 --> 00:33:48.240
Maybe just that as professionals, we have not been successful in ourselves breaking the stereotype that there's more to landscapes than aesthetics of it.
00:33:48.880 --> 00:33:52.799
So I feel right now we are pretty happy that, and it happens across projects.
00:33:52.880 --> 00:34:01.440
It's just this even a small backyard, we are working with people and we have been able to convince them, and then they start looking at the same thing from a different lens.
00:34:01.839 --> 00:34:03.599
And for us, I think it's a win.
00:34:03.759 --> 00:34:06.559
And that is essentially what we are trying to now do with play.
00:34:07.039 --> 00:34:18.880
So, what learning do you think you can share for everybody else in terms of what can landscape architecture in India teach the rest of the world?
00:34:19.039 --> 00:34:21.440
And what has the rest of the world taught you?
00:34:21.599 --> 00:34:34.400
I mean, you've talked about global ecosystems influencing the spaces, but in terms of that learning and theoretical ecosystem, what are the global thoughts, learnings, influences that you're bringing back to India?
00:34:34.480 --> 00:34:35.760
And what can we learn from you?
00:34:36.000 --> 00:34:41.199
I think, I think, you know, when when you first talk about India is just it's a rich culture.
00:34:41.519 --> 00:34:48.079
I mean, you know, it's it's the size of India and and and the and the time frame it has existed for, right?
00:34:48.320 --> 00:34:51.679
We just have a collection of such wonderful stories.
00:34:51.840 --> 00:34:58.400
So I feel like in it, it's so rich with this, it's cultural uh what do you say, the treasure box.
00:34:58.639 --> 00:35:07.840
And um, if you dive deeper into it, I think there's just so much to learn as uh first the the whole idea of coexistence, right?
00:35:08.000 --> 00:35:12.880
Because shared spaces demand a different kind of outlook towards how you interact with each other.
00:35:13.199 --> 00:35:18.239
And trust me, even for its size, I think it's phenomenal how we coexist.
00:35:18.480 --> 00:35:21.280
I think that's something like, and you know, it's not that obvious.
00:35:21.440 --> 00:35:25.920
I've traveled the world and it doesn't seem that obvious that it's so easy to coexist.
00:35:26.239 --> 00:35:36.000
And um I think so, even when we are doing communal spaces, uh, I think it's a bit easier for us because I feel people are much more used to coexisting.
00:35:36.159 --> 00:35:57.440
Yeah in terms of I think uh technically we are yet to go there, and I I will agree that we are we are ourselves wanting to push the boundaries of uh technically being able to solve issues uh through landscape, and those could be broad spectrum ecological issues, but again, those could be something as simple as designing the best play space.
00:35:58.239 --> 00:36:00.880
So it doesn't always have to be like a planetary impact, right?
00:36:01.039 --> 00:36:04.800
Even if you can affect two people in your life, I think you have done your part.
00:36:05.119 --> 00:36:19.840
So, so I think that's another lesson we are learning that we just have the opportunity to work with such diverse groups that the learning curve, you know, the theories which we would develop are going to be easy to test in this part of the world.
00:36:20.000 --> 00:36:23.920
And this is what, like, because you know, we are very theoretical as well in our approach.
00:36:24.800 --> 00:36:27.039
Theoretical and philosophical, I feel we feel this.
00:36:27.280 --> 00:36:37.760
I I've I've always found that when we've had conversations, there's a there's a there's a depth and a breadth to to what you say that that is um yeah, is very much beyond the surface.
00:36:37.840 --> 00:36:46.719
And I think that then also impacts what you're doing, much in the way that I said, you know, is m many hands have touched the wood that creates the equipment and it feels different.
00:36:46.880 --> 00:36:54.400
Many thoughts and feelings and conversations have gone into the work that you do, and it just ultimately ends up being a different approach.
00:36:54.800 --> 00:36:55.360
I I think so.
00:36:55.440 --> 00:37:01.280
So I I was telling somebody, I said, I think we are good landscape architects, but we have better storytellers at GLA.
00:37:02.239 --> 00:37:09.360
See, we we have we again like we have been fortunate to work with wonderful people, and that's not having built work.
00:37:09.760 --> 00:37:14.800
So it's we we do have the ability to tell great stories and then back it with technical rigor.
00:37:15.199 --> 00:37:36.079
I think as well, you very you talked very early in this conversation about negotiating negotiated space and negotiated kind of agreements in space, and and this again, it feels like this again is coming back to that, which uh which really validates that kind of depth of your thinking, and you can feel it in the way that you talk.
00:37:36.239 --> 00:37:55.360
So so, in terms of those key lessons that you could uh you know support other designers that are working internationally, what is it that they need to understand about that cultural context that we've not already talked about before designing for children, for families, for multi-generational Greeks?
00:37:56.000 --> 00:38:05.280
I personally feel you know the biggest challenge is that all the play spaces in the world are always going to be designed by adults for children.
00:38:05.519 --> 00:38:09.679
So it's always, yeah, and and I think that's the toughest thing to solve.
00:38:09.920 --> 00:38:17.119
It's like how exactly then you see, because uh you all have lived that part, but maybe you don't everybody doesn't remember.
00:38:17.280 --> 00:38:23.920
So I think you know that's what makes designing play spaces the most amazing experience is you get to dive back.
00:38:24.639 --> 00:38:31.840
I mean, I I I mean, technically, I'll tell you because we are in this whole phase of designing at the same time four different spaces.
00:38:32.000 --> 00:38:46.239
Uh, we have made this uh anthropometric ergonomic graph at our office, and we say like everything now you need to bend in your knees and understand that somebody's gonna look at it from that height, and it's changed the team's perspective so much.
00:38:47.039 --> 00:38:59.920
I said the same way you need to go back and think like, is this and I said, You I mean, we have somebody at our office right now who comes from Himachal Pradesh, it's the northern part of India, and from a very scenic rural mountain town.
00:39:00.239 --> 00:39:02.960
It's extreme, it's absolutely scenic.
00:39:03.199 --> 00:39:08.719
And for grading, whenever we are doing grading exercises, I have to always relate the think of it.
00:39:08.880 --> 00:39:14.880
Maybe you have crossed a rivulet like that, and she is able to remember and said that's exactly what we are doing here.
00:39:15.119 --> 00:39:17.280
It's just creating that experience over a lock.
00:39:17.440 --> 00:39:19.760
So I'm saying that you all have seen it.
00:39:20.079 --> 00:39:28.800
We just now have to bring it in the technical rigor and and uh kind of you know, uh revive those lost, forgotten spaces of our childhood.
00:39:29.119 --> 00:39:38.159
Get your get your bare feet back in the water to remember what it feels like to hear the sound, see the reflections, just bring that back to life in the world.
00:39:38.320 --> 00:39:42.320
I mean, you exactly said it's spot on because uh exactly.
00:39:42.400 --> 00:39:50.719
I mean, I don't believe a lot of kids even know what it might feel to just look at the reflection in a natural water edge growing up in a city.
00:39:50.880 --> 00:39:52.480
And I think this is an amazing book.
00:39:52.559 --> 00:39:56.480
I was just going through, I just started with called Letters to the Leaders of China.
00:39:56.639 --> 00:40:09.599
And he talks about uh, I think it's a Beijing University research, which says that uh humans earn for the experience of looking at water as much as they earn for food.
00:40:10.239 --> 00:40:14.239
The subconscious uh pull towards water.
00:40:14.400 --> 00:40:28.719
I think because we have lost that philosophical angle of design, we have deprived ourselves of those experiences of just designing a corner when one can just look at himself or herself in a shallow uh and that's not what a swimming pool does.
00:40:28.880 --> 00:40:32.559
I mean, deep water bodies do not reflect, so that's not the same.
00:40:32.719 --> 00:40:34.400
Yeah, no, not at all.
00:40:35.119 --> 00:40:42.159
So we've got a question that we often um ask our well, we we we always ask our guests.
00:40:42.400 --> 00:40:44.880
So you are completely obligated to answer it.
00:40:45.840 --> 00:40:50.960
Um what we like to do is just um focusing on play.
00:40:51.199 --> 00:41:00.880
Uh, if you could change one thing to improve play uh and children's access to play, children's experience of play, what would that one thing be?
00:41:01.199 --> 00:41:06.719
I think reducing the aversion to risk, we need more spaces in play which allow risk.
00:41:06.880 --> 00:41:08.880
So I I feel that's losing.
00:41:08.960 --> 00:41:16.880
And I would really want to reintroduce that element, you know, because again, it's very critical that you learn these things early on in your life.
00:41:17.039 --> 00:41:19.920
I mean, I feel it's beyond play at this point.
00:41:20.239 --> 00:41:23.119
So that one thing if I have to identify it would be risk.
00:41:23.199 --> 00:41:31.519
We need to design for risk, an actual risk, not just oh that oh, but somebody will have to step on something.
00:41:31.599 --> 00:41:35.280
It's like, well, no, actually, that that yeah.
00:41:36.159 --> 00:41:52.480
Again, like not that unleashed dog, but I'm just saying, like no, but but I I feel like yeah, but I think it it's critical because uh we also see like a lot of kids growing around us and parents and specifically talking about how it's affecting not taking risks early on.
00:41:52.639 --> 00:41:55.760
Yeah, kind of it's it's shaping humans in a very different way.
00:41:56.000 --> 00:42:01.360
So if it has to start on a playground, I think definitely designing to integrate that would be great.
00:42:01.599 --> 00:42:03.920
Well, I think that's brilliant, Path.
00:42:04.079 --> 00:42:08.480
All that is left is for me to say this has been a really interesting conversation.
00:42:08.639 --> 00:42:10.480
I this is really fun for me as well.
00:42:10.880 --> 00:42:11.280
Amazing.
00:42:11.440 --> 00:42:15.920
Well, it would be great to do it again sometime because there is so much more to talk about.
00:42:16.079 --> 00:42:21.920
I know with your experience and your work, but um, for now I just want to say thank you so much for your time.
00:42:22.239 --> 00:42:22.719
Absolutely.
00:42:22.800 --> 00:42:24.559
Thank you so much for having me over.
00:42:24.800 --> 00:42:26.320
I really enjoyed it.
