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welcome to Pixels and Priorities,
a podcast at the intersection
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of product and design.
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I'm Metsy Rose, product
manager and strategist.
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Joined by my co-host, J Schuh, design
strategist, educator, and creative mind.
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Each episode we explore how designers,
builders, and product leaders navigate
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constant change, create meaningful
products, and grow their careers.
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Been talking about the types of work
environments we all find ourselves in.
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The work has shifted to, remote work,
a hybrid model, and then quite a few
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companies have been pulling their
employees back to return to office.
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Each of those environments we talked
about recently was going to bring its own
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opportunities and challenges to form your
company's culture and your team's culture
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within your little sphere in your world.
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There's a famous quote you and I've talked
about attributed to Peter Drucker that
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culture eats strategy for breakfast.
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So what are your thoughts
on all of this, J?
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First of all, I love this topic because
there's been a lot of layoffs, and when
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you're out there trying to find a job,
, I think culture makes a big difference.
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For folks that have been around the block
a few times, we've had an opportunity
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to work in a lot of different cultures.
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It's funny, I don't know if you or other
people have this experience, but I have
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often throughout my entire life had what
I call work nightmares or workmares.
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It's generated because of the stress
that I'm under at the job that there
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are some nights that all night I'm
dreaming about things that happen At
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work or could happen, or it's like
the worst-case scenario, and you're
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trying to problem solve all night long.
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My earliest workmare really goes
back to when I was in college.
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I remember waiting tables.
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It was a steak restaurant.
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And I had assumed a leadership position,
and I kept having this recurring workmare
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about being triple sat at the same time.
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And for people that have never waited
tables, it's when three different tables
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sit down at exactly the same time.
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One of the first things you need to
do is greet each table, you greet
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each table and get their drinks.
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And in this workmare, I go up to the
first table, and it's a six top, six
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people, and I ask a really simple
question, "What can I get you started
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to drink?" And one of the people at the
table cannot make up their mind, and
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they're just going, "Oh, I don't know.
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Um, gosh, there's so many things." And
I'm stuck at this one table realizing that
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two other tables have not been greeted.
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They don't know who their server is.
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I need to get drink orders for them too so
I can get everybody their food, and this
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one person just couldn't make up her mind.
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and I'm like, "Well, I can get
you a water." "No, no, I don't
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want water." "Uh, okay." You
know, and she just keeps me there.
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I remember that dream
and I kept having it.
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Have you ever had that situation happen
to you where you're under a lot of stress
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at a job and then you keep having these
dreams that, like I said, are workmares
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about maybe the worst possible scenario?
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Oh, absolutely.
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I remember when I was doing a, marketing
and trade shows, I would go to sleep
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and Excel spreadsheets would just
be- … flowing through my mind, the whole
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night, and I'd just wake up like, "Why
am I dreaming of Excel spreadsheets?"
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But specifically to culture, a
way back, I'll pull one example.
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I was working in a team, , I was in IT
at the time, and we had a strong team.
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We worked together really well, and we
had a leadership change, and we did not
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find out very far in advance, and we
were in the middle of a big project.
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So we as a team decided, okay,
our new boss is coming in.
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We scheduled a conference room, we
created training materials trying
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to, really get this new leader up to
speed quickly because they were coming
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into a high-stress situation that
was in the middle of something big.
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Right.
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And we were like, yes, we did
this, we pulled it together.
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We get in a conference room, and the boss
just doesn't show up to the meetings,
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and we're like, "Oh, okay, we don't know
what's going on." We finally find out
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that the boss is headed to meet with us.
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He sits there and listens to us get
started about 20 minutes in, and
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then he packs all his stuff , up
and walks out of the room Now, this
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was the dream or this was reality?
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This is reality, and I still have
dreams about, my brain just trying
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to reconcile, what was happening.
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Did that really happen?
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Did he just walk out of the
room not saying anything?
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What do we do?
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It revisits me occasionally.
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Did something happen I didn't know about?
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It was such an odd situation
that, that feels very vivid to
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me even in this moment, because
there was so much uncertainty.
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And it, and I knew then that reality
meant that this was going to be
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a difficult change for this team
that was already well-established.
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Within the course of one day, someone
had shifted the trust model in the team-
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Yep and altered the culture, and that
was probably 15, 20 years ago, and I
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still have such vivid memories of it,
and that was definitely a work- mare.
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And I still can't
comprehend, what happened.
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It's so funny that, I was in my 20s
when I was waiting tables, and I still
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remember that work mare to this day.
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When you're having those kind of dreams,
you have this kind of visceral reaction.
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You are living those feelings as
you're dreaming, and you wake up
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and you have to go to work, right?
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Having that kind of high-stress
situation that happened, I wanna say
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that it's the pressure of the culture
that kind of puts you on edge as a
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person that says, "If I don't get things
right, , I'm gonna be in trouble."
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Absolutely.
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In that particular example I just
gave of that change in leadership
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being such an odd, forced culture
shift for us- Mm-hmm by someone else,
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that I actually immediately started
applying for other jobs and left,
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I think, two or three weeks later.
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Yeah.
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Because it was such an impactful shift,
inside of a team that trust was already
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built to have that type of leadership,
I'll say example, 'cause they were
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definitely modeling a behavior for us.
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Not necessarily a behavior that
I think should have been modeled.
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Mm-hmm.
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But it's a huge impact to whether
the team is new and just forming
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or whether the team is fully
established, , shifts in trust and
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shifts in the culture either around
them or within them does fundamentally
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change the stress level of a team.
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I personally believe, seeing an intense
level of stress change for a team
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is absolutely going to impact those
humans and what they're worried about,
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maybe even having trouble sleeping
at night as a result of some of these
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changes that can happen in a culture.
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Those intense situations stay with you.
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I was an entrepreneur for most of my
adult life until my 40s when I made the
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decision to work in corporate America.
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When you're the boss, when you're
the CEO, the buck stops with you.
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You create the culture of your team,
of your company, and I personally
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hired everyone that worked with me.
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So I had a lot of control in my culture
that I created, and I intuitively
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knew people that would be cool with
the culture that I was creating.
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You don't have that luxury in corporate,
if you get hired in, a lot of times your
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team is already decided for you, and you
have to figure those other things out.
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One of the first places that I learned
one of my valuable lessons about
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corporate America was sometimes what they
say in a culture is okay is not okay.
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I was in my 40s, so I had life
experience, but I was naive to, they
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say it, but it doesn't mean it's true.
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And I remember I was in
an all-hands meeting,
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and even today I'm really good at seeing
elephants, i'm the first person that's
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gonna call out the elephant in the room.
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I'm like, "There he is.
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Why aren't people calling out the
elephant in the room?" And I didn't
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know any better, so I remember saying,
"Hey, I'm noticing we're having
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fire drills, every single week.
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I don't think we should be having
fire drills every single week.
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That doesn't make sense to me.
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Shouldn't we have a game plan and people
know ahead of time that these things are
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coming down the pipe, and that would give
people adequate amount of time to get
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things done so everybody doesn't have
to be so stressed?" And I had no idea
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what the ramifications of me saying
that in an all-hands would be.
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Needless to say, I was not
at that company weeks later.
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I was told in onboarding when I came
on, and even by other people that,
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"Hey, listen, we want honest feedback.
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If you see something that isn't
working, we want you to call it out.
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We want you to tell us so we can improve.
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We wanna hear these things."
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And that was not the case.
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They did not wanna hear the truth,
they did not want transparency, and
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they definitely didn't want somebody
to call out the elephant in the
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room in a meeting like an all-hands.
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And that was my first really tough
lessons being in corporate America,
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that sometimes what they tell you you
can say is not really what they want
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That's a hard lesson to learn,
especially if you're idealistic.
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One of the things I enjoy about
you is if you see a problem, you're
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going to try to help them fix it.
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You're gonna try to help the people
around you identify the problem
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and figure out how to fix it.
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I admire that about you, and my
brain works in a similar way.
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But yeah, I've been burned by that too.
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I remember during a change to our
company and someone was buying someone
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else, and we were moving servers, and
we had a large meeting, to figure out
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how server security needed to be redone.
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And I was like, "Hey, I've already
looked at my servers, and I think we
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need to reorganize security in this way
to match the new environment we're in."
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I was not listened to,
and I was pretty stubborn.
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Probably still am very stubborn.
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I was like, "I'm very confident that
my research shows I need to do this."
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So I implemented my method, 'cause
they didn't really have any suggestion
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for me, and I was not met with a
lot of excitement that I wanted.
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Mm-hmm.
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I wanted to really do this way that
I thought was going to be successful,
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, and was essentially, shut down.
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Like, "Don't bring up
the idea again." Mm-hmm.
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Um, "This is not what we're gonna do."
I did it for my little group of servers,
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and then a couple weeks later, we had
a, "Everyone needs to jump on the call.
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No one can get to any
of their shared drives.
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We gotta figure this out." And they're
like, "Okay, we're gonna get in the
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room, and everyone go one by one, and
you tell us exactly, like, where we
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need to jump in and help each other."
And we went around the room, and we got
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to me, and I was like, "Oh, I'm good.
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I don't have any problems to report."
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And they're like, " No, this is where
we're fixing the server security issues."
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And I'm like, "Nope, my structure is fine.
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No one's having any issues.
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I haven't had any customer calls." I would
be lying if I didn't say it felt good in
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that moment to have trusted myself and
have done something that ended up being
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a success, but it was super awkward.
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And I wondered to myself, are the people
in this room, were they listening?
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Are they able to see that I was trying
to be helpful and Do they wish now that
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they had been willing to listen to me?
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At that time, it was a culture of we
are gonna say we want your ideas, but
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we are going to shut them down if they
don't match our preconceived notions.
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That's a tough place to be, especially
if you're like the two of us
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where I want to fix your problems.
00:13:36.899 --> 00:13:36.978
Yeah.
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Even if I'm wrong.
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Even if my solution needs to be shifted
and I need to change based on your
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input, I just want us to get success.
00:13:47.129 --> 00:13:48.570
I just want us to do well.
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And it's hard to be in a workplace
culture that the words are there, but the
00:13:55.618 --> 00:14:01.378
behaviors actually break the psychological
safety that they are- Mm-hmm intending to
00:14:01.398 --> 00:14:03.598
build with the words they're telling you.
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That's a really tough place to be.
00:14:06.538 --> 00:14:07.538
Yeah.
00:14:07.639 --> 00:14:08.699
One of the
00:14:11.282 --> 00:14:21.383
Biggest aha moments for me was I was
at a corporate location that was just
00:14:21.463 --> 00:14:26.022
toxic to the core, and that's something
we can maybe talk about is a little bit
00:14:26.122 --> 00:14:30.422
about, what are some of the red flags
that you may be in a toxic culture.
00:14:31.002 --> 00:14:31.861
I had no idea.
00:14:31.961 --> 00:14:38.361
I was literally having health indicators
where, I went and got a wellness check,
00:14:38.521 --> 00:14:43.822
at the company, and my blood pressure
was, like, 150 over something because
00:14:43.921 --> 00:14:48.392
I was stressed out so much And they
were like, "Oh, this is really high."
00:14:48.433 --> 00:14:53.933
And I'm like, "Yeah, I've been really
stressed." And I remember my boss at the
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time came to me with this saying that I
just fundamentally, completely disagreed
00:15:02.792 --> 00:15:13.512
with, and he told me, "Our job is to
make chicken salad out of chicken crap."
00:15:17.565 --> 00:15:23.939
Wow yeah, and I'm like, if your main
ingredient is chicken crap, I don't
00:15:23.999 --> 00:15:31.459
care how you hide it, You're gonna
taste the crap if you try to eat chicken
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salad that is made with chicken crap.
00:15:34.579 --> 00:15:40.666
And it was his philosophy at the time, and
he was saying, This is the way we work."
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I eventually left that place, and I went
to, another place, and my boss was Brian
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Sullivan, who we've had on this show.
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And unprompted, it was one
of those universal things.
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I didn't have this conversation with him.
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Just unprompted, out of the blue,
he goes, "J, you cannot make
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chicken salad out of chicken crap."
00:16:09.206 --> 00:16:10.866
And I go, "Oh my gosh.
00:16:11.586 --> 00:16:17.486
I am in the right place," because I knew
fundamentally, and I couldn't believe
00:16:17.546 --> 00:16:22.266
that he had said that unprompted, and
it was such the reversal of what I had
00:16:22.306 --> 00:16:26.086
been told before, that I go, "Exactly.
00:16:26.326 --> 00:16:30.466
If you don't have the right
ingredients, you're not gonna be
00:16:30.546 --> 00:16:32.586
able to make something of quality."
00:16:32.636 --> 00:16:38.096
Anybody that's into food knows that the
ingredients are so important to making a
00:16:38.116 --> 00:16:45.276
great product, so these values, I think,
are more than just posters on the wall.
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They're more than just, what they
put on your ID badge in the back.
00:16:50.556 --> 00:16:59.156
If your culture doesn't actually believe
or, stand by what they put on those
00:16:59.256 --> 00:17:04.936
posters and on your badge, humans pick
up on that really quickly, especially
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if you've been in corporate for a while.
00:17:07.396 --> 00:17:10.366
I think that's almost one of the
litmus tests that people do, is
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they go in and say, "Is this for
real, or are you just saying it?"
00:17:13.981 --> 00:17:14.742
It's so true.
00:17:14.901 --> 00:17:21.301
It almost makes me wonder if that first
manager heard the phrase, misinterpreted
00:17:21.361 --> 00:17:26.302
it, and committed it, like reversed the
direction of the ingredients- No … and
00:17:26.321 --> 00:17:29.001
then committed it to, like, the- No, no.
00:17:29.361 --> 00:17:35.121
He- Like, honestly believed that … he
legitimately believed that was our job.
00:17:36.100 --> 00:17:36.800
Interesting.
00:17:37.500 --> 00:17:44.840
He legitimately said, "What we're getting
is bad, and our job is to make it edible."
00:17:46.600 --> 00:17:52.260
I just fundamentally said, "That's, that's
a bad way to start." I mean, any recipe.
00:17:52.720 --> 00:17:58.580
I don't care if it's a recipe for success,
good ingredients are the first thing.
00:17:59.440 --> 00:18:01.339
That is the most important thing.
00:18:01.819 --> 00:18:06.039
Any cooking show, any chef will
tell you, "Hey, start off with great
00:18:06.079 --> 00:18:10.169
ingredients. That's the first, best
way to have a high quality product."
00:18:10.889 --> 00:18:14.745
I felt in that culture like I
could be attacked at any moment.
00:18:15.206 --> 00:18:19.745
Anything I did that was a
misstep, I felt like I could be
00:18:19.805 --> 00:18:21.565
brought down upon, and I was.
00:18:21.605 --> 00:18:27.405
There were times when I was told,
"Hey, use the right logo." And I go,
00:18:27.645 --> 00:18:32.805
"There are 50 different versions of
this logo for various case studies.
00:18:32.905 --> 00:18:33.485
I'm new.
00:18:33.545 --> 00:18:34.825
I'm trying to figure this thing out.
00:18:35.065 --> 00:18:39.085
Can I get support on tell
me what is the right logo?"
00:18:39.365 --> 00:18:40.385
And he goes, "Figure it out."
00:18:42.721 --> 00:18:47.562
And when I moved to Brian, Brian
was like, "Hey, there's a lot.
00:18:47.761 --> 00:18:49.321
It's drinking through the fire hose.
00:18:50.321 --> 00:18:52.772
If you have any questions, let
me know and I'll support you.
00:18:52.812 --> 00:18:58.372
I'll help you out." And he did, I
think that actions, speak louder than
00:18:58.431 --> 00:19:03.140
words, is really one of the indicators
of a good culture, and that's a way
00:19:03.240 --> 00:19:06.250
that you start developing more of
what you referred to earlier, that
00:19:06.370 --> 00:19:09.050
psychological safety, in a corporation.
00:19:09.110 --> 00:19:14.350
I think that's the litmus test
over time, is that people's actions
00:19:14.390 --> 00:19:15.770
speak louder than the words.
00:19:16.290 --> 00:19:20.459
If you mess up and you're not, persecuted
and said, "Boy, that's point number
00:19:20.599 --> 00:19:25.760
one, you got two more and you're out,"
that really is not the type of culture
00:19:25.800 --> 00:19:28.420
that makes you wanna stay or grow.
00:19:28.460 --> 00:19:31.840
Because then if you do mess
up, you try to hide it, right?
00:19:31.960 --> 00:19:35.020
I think, and sweep things under the
rug because you go, "Gosh, I don't
00:19:35.041 --> 00:19:38.859
wanna be called out." If you really
need your job, I think Instead of
00:19:38.980 --> 00:19:43.299
asking, "Hey, I messed up, how can I
fix it?" They're going, That wasn't me.
00:19:43.549 --> 00:19:44.069
I agree.
00:19:44.119 --> 00:19:50.969
If I look back at the organizations that
I would, in hindsight, feel were pretty
00:19:51.019 --> 00:19:56.619
good or had really strong aspects to
their culture, they all had either a
00:19:56.699 --> 00:20:02.249
hopefulness- Mm-hmm … or an optimism
that they wanted you to succeed.
00:20:03.139 --> 00:20:08.799
And therefore, they understood that
meant giving you support and thinking
00:20:08.939 --> 00:20:11.839
of pitfalls they want you to avoid.
00:20:12.359 --> 00:20:17.739
Learn from my mistakes so that you don't
have to make them as a way of operating
00:20:17.799 --> 00:20:22.199
with not only your employees if you're
a manager, but your colleagues and your
00:20:22.259 --> 00:20:28.079
stakeholders coming to the situations
with a perspective of, like this
00:20:28.139 --> 00:20:31.739
whole thing is a tough world to be in.
00:20:32.259 --> 00:20:32.309
Mm-hmm.
00:20:32.388 --> 00:20:35.849
In corporate America, most of my
experience is corporate America, so that's
00:20:35.909 --> 00:20:39.519
the bulk of my experience to speak from.
00:20:39.569 --> 00:20:43.149
If you come to it, and that's the way
I've always wanted to come to my teams
00:20:43.429 --> 00:20:49.289
is, I want you to succeed or I would not
have put you here in the first place.
00:20:49.299 --> 00:20:49.309
Yeah.
00:20:49.409 --> 00:20:55.429
I want to do what I can to help you
be successful, and that means telling
00:20:55.469 --> 00:20:59.969
you how to learn from the things I've
done wrong so that you don't have to
00:20:59.989 --> 00:21:01.969
make those mistakes all over again.
00:21:02.909 --> 00:21:07.889
In the organizations where it's almost
feels like a hazing ritual, like I-
00:21:07.919 --> 00:21:12.949
Mm-hmm … went through pain, therefore
you must go through pain, has become
00:21:13.009 --> 00:21:18.949
a signal to me of a culture that I
am not personally gonna fit well in,
00:21:19.079 --> 00:21:21.119
because I want to fix the problems.
00:21:21.659 --> 00:21:22.039
Mm-hmm.
00:21:22.669 --> 00:21:27.989
Therefore, that means we need the
freedom to experiment and help each
00:21:28.049 --> 00:21:33.649
other through mistakes instead of having
every minor mistake being, "Aha!" Mm-hmm.
00:21:34.769 --> 00:21:39.879
Having that freedom to learn from your
mistakes together has a hopefulness that
00:21:39.959 --> 00:21:46.619
has felt to me like a sign of, if not
a great, a good and improving culture.
00:21:48.099 --> 00:21:52.259
As I'm sitting here talking to you,
maybe I haven't completely learned my
00:21:52.299 --> 00:21:58.819
lesson, even though I've been in corporate
America now for, over 15 years I think.
00:21:58.959 --> 00:22:00.959
When I met you, I disclosed.
00:22:01.059 --> 00:22:03.099
I said, "Hey, I am not good at this.
00:22:03.519 --> 00:22:07.619
There are some things I'm really not
good at." I think that was a little
00:22:07.679 --> 00:22:12.419
bit of a trust olive branch to you
to say, " "Hey, I'm really not good
00:22:12.459 --> 00:22:15.309
at this thing," and you could have
used it against me, and you didn't,
00:22:16.199 --> 00:22:20.679
You said, "Okay, he's being vulnerable,
he's being honest." And it wasn't
00:22:20.739 --> 00:22:26.049
because I just wanna say, "Oh, hey,,
I don't wanna do this work." I don't
00:22:26.059 --> 00:22:28.809
think I ever shied away from doing work.
00:22:28.909 --> 00:22:33.189
I just let you know, "Hey, if there's
a clock on this work, I'm not the
00:22:33.209 --> 00:22:34.469
person you wanna put on this."
00:22:35.089 --> 00:22:38.909
If this needs to be done really
quickly and it has to be perfect,
00:22:39.929 --> 00:22:41.069
you don't wanna put me on it.
00:22:41.339 --> 00:22:44.819
I'm willing to do the work, but there are
some things I'm gonna take a lot longer
00:22:44.859 --> 00:22:46.630
than other people that's their jam.
00:22:47.310 --> 00:22:51.670
Now, when it comes to facilitation
and dealing with really high stress,
00:22:51.970 --> 00:22:56.710
high stakeholder things and where
anything can go wrong, I'm your guy.
00:22:56.810 --> 00:23:00.710
I'm the one that can get in there
and manage those really challenging
00:23:00.810 --> 00:23:06.430
human, situations better than a lot
of people because that's my jam.
00:23:07.110 --> 00:23:13.130
And I think when I lead teams, I try
to instill in my team that we're all
00:23:13.150 --> 00:23:17.130
in this together, that different people
are gonna have different strengths.
00:23:17.930 --> 00:23:19.390
We wanna play to those strengths.
00:23:19.820 --> 00:23:23.400
I've said this before, we need
to watch each other's back.
00:23:23.450 --> 00:23:29.130
Because there will come a day that's
that oh, crap moment where you're
00:23:29.150 --> 00:23:34.250
gonna need your teammates to chip
in, stay after hours, maybe help you
00:23:34.410 --> 00:23:40.290
out to get something done, and you do
that because your day will come, too.
00:23:40.810 --> 00:23:44.590
Your day, your oh, crap moment is
gonna come, too, and you're gonna want
00:23:44.670 --> 00:23:49.491
your teammates to chip in with you,
and that's that bond of a good team,
00:23:49.651 --> 00:23:54.881
that psychological safety you have,
and knowing that when that day comes,
00:23:54.891 --> 00:24:00.021
hopefully, people will also stay after
work or do whatever needs to be done
00:24:00.051 --> 00:24:05.371
to support you in the same way that you
supported them in their moment of need.
00:24:07.734 --> 00:24:11.935
Maybe all of us are listening
to this episode because we
00:24:12.074 --> 00:24:13.494
agree that we think- Mm-hmm
00:24:14.034 --> 00:24:18.774
culture is important, and we
can know that it impacts every
00:24:18.914 --> 00:24:20.535
human that's in that culture.
00:24:20.594 --> 00:24:23.254
It is impacting their personal
life to one way or another.
00:24:23.814 --> 00:24:27.894
It is either a healthier culture that
allows you to close your laptop at the
00:24:27.954 --> 00:24:33.614
end of the day, take a deep breath, go
home, and go on about your life, or, is
00:24:33.654 --> 00:24:40.195
it a culture that you close that laptop,
that deep breath is like a bracing type
00:24:40.256 --> 00:24:44.335
of breath because you know that there's
going to be pain in the evening, or that
00:24:44.395 --> 00:24:49.756
you're consumed by stress about maybe
that, "Did I say that email correctly?
00:24:49.795 --> 00:24:51.195
Is someone gonna get mad at that?
00:24:51.335 --> 00:24:54.885
I talked to someone I don't usually
talk to." I've been in environments
00:24:54.925 --> 00:24:58.705
where I would get in trouble to
even speaking to another person-
00:24:58.806 --> 00:25:00.305
Mm-hmm … in another team.
00:25:00.365 --> 00:25:05.885
So I think we can all agree that the
culture you're working in is not only
00:25:05.925 --> 00:25:09.465
important for the quality of your
work, but the quality of your life.
00:25:10.166 --> 00:25:10.185
Mm-hmm.
00:25:10.265 --> 00:25:16.866
At the end of the day, my hope is
that- None of us have to deal with work
00:25:16.946 --> 00:25:20.196
mares and are sleeping stressfully.
00:25:21.236 --> 00:25:27.136
I've definitely come to realize
that a culture is going to be a
00:25:27.216 --> 00:25:32.736
much higher factor in where I'm
going to place myself in the future
00:25:33.556 --> 00:25:35.336
than perhaps it was in the past.
00:25:36.096 --> 00:25:36.216
Yep.
00:25:37.096 --> 00:25:38.036
For various reasons.
00:25:38.106 --> 00:25:41.886
We all would go through life phases
where survival feels vital, and
00:25:41.926 --> 00:25:46.216
we'll put up with culture problems
that we may not have otherwise.
00:25:46.916 --> 00:25:51.196
But it's a super important part
of your decision-making for where
00:25:51.216 --> 00:25:52.456
do you want your career to go?
00:25:52.596 --> 00:25:59.306
For product and design, there's multiple
facets for what makes you feel good about
00:25:59.306 --> 00:26:04.956
your work every day, and I think culture
is a huge piece of my decision-making
00:26:04.996 --> 00:26:09.936
for what I want to be and where I
want to place myself in the future.
00:26:09.956 --> 00:26:15.586
Then there's also super important aspects,
for product and design, do I wanna
00:26:15.626 --> 00:26:18.806
work on a project that's more exciting?
00:26:18.846 --> 00:26:19.006
Mm-hmm.
00:26:19.026 --> 00:26:22.536
More … that has a tie to an interest.
00:26:23.306 --> 00:26:29.146
Our friend Shane works at a company
who has, some tools to help people,
00:26:29.826 --> 00:26:33.056
I think connect with different
RV parks maybe, even one- Mm-hmm
00:26:33.056 --> 00:26:33.786
of the tools they have.
00:26:34.606 --> 00:26:38.446
I'm low-key obsessed with tiny
homes and RV parks, and so part of
00:26:38.476 --> 00:26:43.646
me was like, see, that's an example
of, a call to a personal interest.
00:26:44.026 --> 00:26:44.056
Mm-hmm.
00:26:44.066 --> 00:26:47.966
Wouldn't that be cool to work
someplace that has a personal interest?
00:26:48.066 --> 00:26:49.066
Maybe you like pets.
00:26:49.606 --> 00:26:53.206
Maybe you've thought to yourself,
"Oh, what if I worked at Chewy?"
00:26:53.306 --> 00:26:58.166
That's a whole different part of
working, if not only a strong culture,
00:26:58.266 --> 00:27:01.786
but maybe an interesting product
that you're supporting or designing.
00:27:02.446 --> 00:27:07.256
I think Culture is a vital part of our
decision-making and a way to really
00:27:07.556 --> 00:27:10.996
impact and pour into the people that
you're working with on a daily basis.
00:27:12.096 --> 00:27:16.446
Now, what's interesting about
nowadays, and we've had a bunch of
00:27:16.476 --> 00:27:19.386
shows, where we've talked about AI.
00:27:19.386 --> 00:27:25.396
In the past, a lot of companies
say they want to do innovative work
00:27:27.702 --> 00:27:31.961
A lot of companies say they
wanna be market leaders.
00:27:32.961 --> 00:27:39.102
They want to create features or products
or designs that go beyond just the parity
00:27:39.161 --> 00:27:42.142
of the competitors they're going against.
00:27:43.501 --> 00:27:51.140
And, being an expert in design strategy
and design thinking, one of the things
00:27:51.260 --> 00:27:57.700
I know from reading countless books
on the topic is all of the great
00:27:57.820 --> 00:28:05.381
inventions that we enjoy today those
inventors had multiple failures.
00:28:06.680 --> 00:28:11.980
Edison, with the light bulb, that's one
of the ones people talk about, is that
00:28:12.060 --> 00:28:15.601
10,000 wrong ways to make a light bulb.
00:28:16.360 --> 00:28:20.840
The Wright brothers and all the different
versions of the plane they tried to
00:28:20.879 --> 00:28:25.149
get up, and when they first flew it
wasn't that long, and there was multiple
00:28:25.229 --> 00:28:28.009
iterations in truly being innovative.
00:28:28.118 --> 00:28:32.298
When you are trying to be innovative,
I think one of the requirements of
00:28:32.438 --> 00:28:36.518
cultures that allow for innovation
are cultures that allow for failure
00:28:38.878 --> 00:28:43.798
And, you know, I mean, I
personally try to be innovative.
00:28:44.058 --> 00:28:46.518
I tell my bosses I'm more like Babe Ruth.
00:28:46.598 --> 00:28:50.317
If you look at his stats, yes,
everybody knows him for home runs,
00:28:50.777 --> 00:28:53.757
but take a look at his stats for
how many times he struck out.
00:28:54.918 --> 00:29:00.358
And I will tell my boss, "Hey, listen, I'm
gonna hit the rafters a lot, but when I
00:29:00.419 --> 00:29:03.298
mess up big because I'm always going big."
00:29:03.919 --> 00:29:07.978
And I've told that to almost every
single boss I've worked for where I felt
00:29:08.079 --> 00:29:13.759
psychologically safe, and I've said,
"Just expect I'm gonna come to you and
00:29:13.878 --> 00:29:18.978
tell you, 'Hey, boss, here's how I just
messed up big.' And I just want it to
00:29:19.038 --> 00:29:24.178
come from me so you're not surprised."
And that has happened almost in every job
00:29:24.218 --> 00:29:26.538
because I am trying to go for big plays.
00:29:26.639 --> 00:29:28.318
I am trying to make a big difference.
00:29:28.818 --> 00:29:30.378
I am being authentic.
00:29:30.818 --> 00:29:32.938
I am trying to make a difference.
00:29:33.258 --> 00:29:37.778
And when you play that way, there are
gonna be situations where it's not gonna
00:29:37.838 --> 00:29:40.878
go well, and, it's gonna come down on you.
00:29:41.217 --> 00:29:42.897
Now, for me personally, I own it.
00:29:43.137 --> 00:29:44.457
I don't try to hide it.
00:29:44.558 --> 00:29:47.929
Like I said, I'll go to my boss first
so they don't hear it through the
00:29:47.988 --> 00:29:51.428
grapevine and say, " Hey, I think I
just really messed up, and here's how.
00:29:51.678 --> 00:29:56.898
That's a great example of how to be the
positive change in a culture yourself.
00:29:57.298 --> 00:29:57.318
Mm-hmm.
00:29:57.318 --> 00:30:00.658
'Cause it's not just a
consuming of culture.
00:30:00.769 --> 00:30:05.569
For the time that you are in a group,
you are also impacting that culture.
00:30:05.669 --> 00:30:11.150
So that's a great model that you show
for your manager- Mm-hmm … and for
00:30:11.209 --> 00:30:16.889
your coworkers to own up to the failures,
because they are a part of the process.
00:30:17.509 --> 00:30:24.270
Especially for the world that we live in
product and design, there are guidelines,
00:30:24.531 --> 00:30:31.290
there are recommendations, there are
frameworks, but every product, every
00:30:31.430 --> 00:30:37.950
user base combination is unique in many
ways, and we are all experimenting.
00:30:38.031 --> 00:30:43.230
It's one of the reasons I'm glad I get to
do continuous product discovery- Mm-hmm
00:30:43.270 --> 00:30:48.290
to experiment so that we can all
acknowledge together that we are going
00:30:48.330 --> 00:30:53.550
to do experiments, which inherently
means some of them will not succeed.
00:30:54.070 --> 00:30:54.090
Right.
00:30:54.110 --> 00:30:58.451
But through the process of doing them
together there are opportunities in
00:30:58.491 --> 00:31:03.451
the product and design world for us
to use those moments of where things
00:31:03.471 --> 00:31:08.371
didn't go perfectly to help build
the culture towards innovation, to
00:31:08.411 --> 00:31:10.251
help each other manage the stress.
00:31:10.351 --> 00:31:11.911
No one wants to make a mistake.
00:31:12.691 --> 00:31:12.781
Right.
00:31:12.871 --> 00:31:16.311
Or I've never met a human that was
like, "I love making mistakes."
00:31:16.951 --> 00:31:22.131
I've met lots of humans who value
the learning from being honest
00:31:22.151 --> 00:31:24.931
about a mistake and trying to
figure out how not to make it again.
00:31:25.451 --> 00:31:29.751
But I think that's an important way
for each of us, an individual, to be a
00:31:29.811 --> 00:31:34.651
part of that psychological safety and
to build an organization around us that
00:31:34.731 --> 00:31:37.281
is a place where innovation can grow.
00:31:37.991 --> 00:31:44.591
Because in this world of, extreme
rates of tool changes, like not just-
00:31:44.661 --> 00:31:50.131
Mm-hmm … technology changes, but
the tools being introduced and being
00:31:50.231 --> 00:31:56.271
bought and being merged and being
shut down, like the rate feels even
00:31:56.311 --> 00:31:59.471
more frenetic than it has in the past.
00:31:59.591 --> 00:32:02.911
This is where we need to be pulling
it together to help manage the
00:32:02.951 --> 00:32:08.671
change, navigate the change, use
our collective knowledge to build
00:32:08.711 --> 00:32:13.271
some really great products, and
that has always been tough to do.
00:32:13.391 --> 00:32:18.211
I think rate of change is increasing
the complexity around trying to do
00:32:18.311 --> 00:32:19.991
this thing, innovation, well together.
00:32:20.711 --> 00:32:26.821
I hope a lot of organizations can
manage, innovations in a way that
00:32:26.921 --> 00:32:29.941
you've discussed and being able
to talk about our shortcomings
00:32:29.961 --> 00:32:31.161
so that we can fix them together.
00:32:32.331 --> 00:32:36.911
One of the phrases that I hear a lot in
companies that are wanting to be more
00:32:36.951 --> 00:32:45.331
innovative is fail fast, but again, I
go back to what I said at the beginning.
00:32:45.351 --> 00:32:46.210
Do they really mean it?
00:32:46.460 --> 00:32:50.560
Because a lot of times people will look
and say, " How long did you spend on this?
00:32:50.700 --> 00:32:55.910
Two weeks, and this is the result?"
And then it's almost, in some cultures,
00:32:56.080 --> 00:33:04.540
as if you get a stain on you, because
look how much time and money wasted.
00:33:05.360 --> 00:33:06.480
We can't afford that.
00:33:07.060 --> 00:33:14.980
We can't afford to lose." When you
create that kind of culture, you create
00:33:14.990 --> 00:33:20.510
a culture that is more than likely not
gonna be innovative, because if you
00:33:20.930 --> 00:33:27.190
publicly punish people or get rid of
them, or because they fail, people learn
00:33:27.270 --> 00:33:31.810
really quickly that if they wanna keep
their job, that they better play it safe.
00:33:32.490 --> 00:33:35.830
And when you play it safe,
you're not gonna be innovative.
00:33:37.310 --> 00:33:38.140
You're just not.
00:33:38.830 --> 00:33:42.640
You're gonna come up with a common
response zone of products, or you're
00:33:42.650 --> 00:33:47.990
gonna look at other people and how they're
doing it, because then you can justify
00:33:48.030 --> 00:33:52.460
why you're doing what you're doing,
and you're gonna, play it really safe.
00:33:52.980 --> 00:33:59.610
I remember at SMU, I went to a
creativity talk, and I can't remember
00:33:59.620 --> 00:34:01.370
the gentleman's name who was speaking.
00:34:02.020 --> 00:34:06.400
At, at one point he's considered to be one
of the creativity experts, and I should
00:34:06.440 --> 00:34:08.220
know, I just can't remember right now.
00:34:10.040 --> 00:34:13.080
But he told me something in the
talk that I've never forgotten.
00:34:14.620 --> 00:34:22.320
He said a lot of companies want to be
innovative, and a lot of times they'll
00:34:22.380 --> 00:34:26.140
approach companies and say, "Hey,
listen, we wanna do something really
00:34:26.200 --> 00:34:28.480
creative and innovative with our logo."
00:34:29.540 --> 00:34:37.340
"Okay, cool." And for a really
creative person, you might go, going,
00:34:37.400 --> 00:34:43.350
"Wow, if their logo's blue, let's
explore red or orange or, purple
00:34:43.449 --> 00:34:49.110
or, some other wild color and let's
be truly creative and let's explore
00:34:49.190 --> 00:34:51.330
all sorts of really awesome ideas."
00:34:52.430 --> 00:35:01.390
And he goes, "That's not what they
want." Their idea of uber creative is,
00:35:01.830 --> 00:35:05.810
"Okay, right now your logo is dark blue.
00:35:07.570 --> 00:35:08.130
Wait a minute.
00:35:09.710 --> 00:35:16.610
What if we made it light blue?" Oh my God.
00:35:17.550 --> 00:35:19.410
Oh my God, you are a genius.
00:35:20.030 --> 00:35:22.930
And you know I'm not kidding.
00:35:24.865 --> 00:35:28.385
You know that's exactly what
happens, and companies get paid
00:35:28.945 --> 00:35:38.606
hundreds of thousands of dollars
to turn dark blue logos light blue.
00:35:38.856 --> 00:35:40.776
We see it all the time.
00:35:40.857 --> 00:35:44.486
Someone will be like, "Brand new logo,"
and they'll unveil it, and I'm like,
00:35:45.946 --> 00:35:48.926
"That was a fairly minor change." Right.
00:35:49.546 --> 00:35:55.666
Can't you tell the kerning and the sizing
in the A is different, can't you see the
00:35:55.826 --> 00:35:59.006
huge impact that it's made on our brand?
00:35:59.646 --> 00:36:01.407
Uh, no I can't.
00:36:01.767 --> 00:36:07.768
Listen, there are other examples that
I've seen recently where people have
00:36:07.867 --> 00:36:15.068
rebranded, and I've literally thought,
"Did you go to freefonts.com and look
00:36:15.187 --> 00:36:21.607
up '90s retro and make that font?"
That's literally what I've thought.
00:36:21.667 --> 00:36:24.447
When I saw that, I go, "I don't
know how much money you spent, but
00:36:24.547 --> 00:36:25.887
I could've saved you a lot more.
00:36:25.987 --> 00:36:30.627
For 25% of what you probably spent, I
could've come up with something a lot
00:36:30.688 --> 00:36:35.848
better than what I'm seeing now." It does
go both ways, but I think there's this
00:36:35.907 --> 00:36:43.008
inherent fear of truly being creative,
and culture makes a huge difference.
00:36:43.787 --> 00:36:46.368
Companies are saying,
"We want to go beyond.
00:36:46.408 --> 00:36:52.447
We want to be a market leader," but
if the culture doesn't facilitate that
00:36:52.567 --> 00:37:00.467
kind of exploration, they're handcuffing
themselves to just mediocre features that
00:37:00.527 --> 00:37:04.287
they're gonna release in their products
that truly aren't gonna be innovative
00:37:04.367 --> 00:37:07.887
and not make the difference I think
they wanna make in the marketplace.
00:37:09.788 --> 00:37:18.348
I am hopeful, yet very apprehensive
that as companies rush to throw their
00:37:18.408 --> 00:37:26.308
resources and strategy towards AI, that
they lose sight of that their humans
00:37:26.448 --> 00:37:35.128
could be released to be more creative if
the tasks can be managed through AI, as
00:37:35.168 --> 00:37:37.728
opposed to AI being the end-all, be-all.
00:37:38.288 --> 00:37:41.428
I'm hopeful that there will be
companies who understand, and I think
00:37:41.508 --> 00:37:47.008
IKEA has already done this, where
they have employees displaced by AI,
00:37:47.108 --> 00:37:50.108
but they ended up re-skilling them
and getting them into new roles.
00:37:50.138 --> 00:37:55.338
There's opportunities as we're
implementing AI in companies.
00:37:55.468 --> 00:38:03.218
I am hopeful that leadership at some level
is asking themselves, we are… We need to
00:38:03.278 --> 00:38:07.378
understand that there's an impact to our
culture- Mm-hmm … with the shift towards
00:38:07.458 --> 00:38:15.198
AI, and now our humans could be released
to be more creative and innovative.
00:38:15.878 --> 00:38:21.598
If you are in a high-trust,
high-innovation culture, you may tend
00:38:21.678 --> 00:38:23.938
towards those type of decision-making.
00:38:24.958 --> 00:38:24.968
Mm-hmm.
00:38:25.028 --> 00:38:30.568
Using the innovation from humans
increasingly so as things can be
00:38:30.648 --> 00:38:34.967
offloaded to AI, versus a company
that is super high control.
00:38:35.748 --> 00:38:39.958
I fear that culture with an
AI model is going to tend into
00:38:40.078 --> 00:38:41.898
how can I use AI to control?
00:38:42.378 --> 00:38:47.558
If they are already tending towards a
control and command type of environment
00:38:47.698 --> 00:38:52.838
or whatever the culture is, I think
how they look into the future and
00:38:52.858 --> 00:38:57.618
how their companies will run, I think
culture is just as important as it
00:38:57.698 --> 00:39:01.798
always has been and will be increasingly
important to pay attention to.
00:39:03.285 --> 00:39:04.566
I couldn't agree with you more.
00:39:04.826 --> 00:39:10.666
Cultures that think that AI is gonna
be the silver bullet for them to be
00:39:10.806 --> 00:39:16.226
innovative, if they have not in the
past created cultures that allow for
00:39:16.327 --> 00:39:22.386
innovation, just by having an AI strategy,
I don't think that is going to be the
00:39:22.466 --> 00:39:27.506
silver bullet they think it is because
they don't have a culture that will allow
00:39:28.286 --> 00:39:36.066
for the exploration, experimentation,
iteration that AI is going to require
00:39:36.726 --> 00:39:42.667
to create those next level features
and products that they're wanting to.
00:39:44.086 --> 00:39:49.965
I think a focus on culture becomes
more important with each passing day,
00:39:50.185 --> 00:39:52.005
especially with the introduction of AI.
00:39:52.125 --> 00:39:57.725
And not less important, it continues to
be a vital topic for us to consider as
00:39:57.805 --> 00:40:02.305
we work day in and day out together to
build great products and great designs.
00:40:02.405 --> 00:40:04.384
I think this has been
fantastic, discussion.
00:40:04.431 --> 00:40:08.961
You said it earlier, the quote
from Peter Drucker, "Culture
00:40:09.301 --> 00:40:11.161
eats strategy for breakfast."
00:40:11.411 --> 00:40:13.811
.Thanks for listening to
Pixels and Priorities.
00:40:14.291 --> 00:40:18.041
Follow and subscribe for more
conversations at the intersection
00:40:18.071 --> 00:40:19.901
of product and design.
00:40:20.471 --> 00:40:21.701
See you next time.
NOTE
This file was generated by Descript
00:00:00.210 --> 00:00:04.320
welcome to Pixels and Priorities,
a podcast at the intersection
00:00:04.380 --> 00:00:06.060
of product and design.
00:00:06.630 --> 00:00:09.990
I'm Metsy Rose, product
manager and strategist.
00:00:10.380 --> 00:00:16.500
Joined by my co-host, J Schuh, design
strategist, educator, and creative mind.
00:00:17.190 --> 00:00:22.170
Each episode we explore how designers,
builders, and product leaders navigate
00:00:22.170 --> 00:00:26.610
constant change, create meaningful
products, and grow their careers.
00:00:26.701 --> 00:00:31.441
Been talking about the types of work
environments we all find ourselves in.
00:00:31.531 --> 00:00:38.021
The work has shifted to, remote work,
a hybrid model, and then quite a few
00:00:38.131 --> 00:00:42.031
companies have been pulling their
employees back to return to office.
00:00:42.101 --> 00:00:46.941
Each of those environments we talked
about recently was going to bring its own
00:00:47.021 --> 00:00:54.641
opportunities and challenges to form your
company's culture and your team's culture
00:00:54.681 --> 00:00:56.721
within your little sphere in your world.
00:00:57.311 --> 00:01:01.761
There's a famous quote you and I've talked
about attributed to Peter Drucker that
00:01:01.891 --> 00:01:04.751
culture eats strategy for breakfast.
00:01:05.511 --> 00:01:07.331
So what are your thoughts
on all of this, J?
00:01:07.991 --> 00:01:13.748
First of all, I love this topic because
there's been a lot of layoffs, and when
00:01:13.788 --> 00:01:18.928
you're out there trying to find a job,
, I think culture makes a big difference.
00:01:19.488 --> 00:01:23.798
For folks that have been around the block
a few times, we've had an opportunity
00:01:23.828 --> 00:01:27.688
to work in a lot of different cultures.
00:01:28.208 --> 00:01:35.058
It's funny, I don't know if you or other
people have this experience, but I have
00:01:35.158 --> 00:01:42.138
often throughout my entire life had what
I call work nightmares or workmares.
00:01:42.858 --> 00:01:50.278
It's generated because of the stress
that I'm under at the job that there
00:01:50.318 --> 00:01:56.653
are some nights that all night I'm
dreaming about things that happen At
00:01:56.754 --> 00:02:00.774
work or could happen, or it's like
the worst-case scenario, and you're
00:02:00.834 --> 00:02:03.153
trying to problem solve all night long.
00:02:03.153 --> 00:02:08.252
My earliest workmare really goes
back to when I was in college.
00:02:08.653 --> 00:02:10.752
I remember waiting tables.
00:02:11.573 --> 00:02:13.032
It was a steak restaurant.
00:02:14.032 --> 00:02:22.293
And I had assumed a leadership position,
and I kept having this recurring workmare
00:02:22.393 --> 00:02:25.013
about being triple sat at the same time.
00:02:25.033 --> 00:02:29.673
And for people that have never waited
tables, it's when three different tables
00:02:29.733 --> 00:02:32.073
sit down at exactly the same time.
00:02:33.073 --> 00:02:36.563
One of the first things you need to
do is greet each table, you greet
00:02:36.604 --> 00:02:38.143
each table and get their drinks.
00:02:38.924 --> 00:02:46.063
And in this workmare, I go up to the
first table, and it's a six top, six
00:02:46.143 --> 00:02:51.463
people, and I ask a really simple
question, "What can I get you started
00:02:51.504 --> 00:03:00.203
to drink?" And one of the people at the
table cannot make up their mind, and
00:03:00.243 --> 00:03:02.863
they're just going, "Oh, I don't know.
00:03:03.424 --> 00:03:12.203
Um, gosh, there's so many things." And
I'm stuck at this one table realizing that
00:03:12.263 --> 00:03:14.563
two other tables have not been greeted.
00:03:15.103 --> 00:03:16.843
They don't know who their server is.
00:03:17.784 --> 00:03:23.123
I need to get drink orders for them too so
I can get everybody their food, and this
00:03:23.203 --> 00:03:24.953
one person just couldn't make up her mind.
00:03:25.043 --> 00:03:28.863
and I'm like, "Well, I can get
you a water." "No, no, I don't
00:03:28.922 --> 00:03:35.735
want water." "Uh, okay." You
know, and she just keeps me there.
00:03:35.785 --> 00:03:38.535
I remember that dream
and I kept having it.
00:03:39.055 --> 00:03:44.365
Have you ever had that situation happen
to you where you're under a lot of stress
00:03:44.445 --> 00:03:48.865
at a job and then you keep having these
dreams that, like I said, are workmares
00:03:49.345 --> 00:03:51.845
about maybe the worst possible scenario?
00:03:52.885 --> 00:03:54.185
Oh, absolutely.
00:03:54.765 --> 00:03:59.044
I remember when I was doing a, marketing
and trade shows, I would go to sleep
00:03:59.084 --> 00:04:05.304
and Excel spreadsheets would just
be- … flowing through my mind, the whole
00:04:05.384 --> 00:04:08.773
night, and I'd just wake up like, "Why
am I dreaming of Excel spreadsheets?"
00:04:09.164 --> 00:04:13.544
But specifically to culture, a
way back, I'll pull one example.
00:04:14.304 --> 00:04:19.624
I was working in a team, , I was in IT
at the time, and we had a strong team.
00:04:19.884 --> 00:04:25.494
We worked together really well, and we
had a leadership change, and we did not
00:04:25.524 --> 00:04:29.524
find out very far in advance, and we
were in the middle of a big project.
00:04:29.724 --> 00:04:34.444
So we as a team decided, okay,
our new boss is coming in.
00:04:34.534 --> 00:04:38.434
We scheduled a conference room, we
created training materials trying
00:04:38.474 --> 00:04:43.004
to, really get this new leader up to
speed quickly because they were coming
00:04:43.064 --> 00:04:46.164
into a high-stress situation that
was in the middle of something big.
00:04:46.864 --> 00:04:47.024
Right.
00:04:47.074 --> 00:04:49.674
And we were like, yes, we did
this, we pulled it together.
00:04:50.194 --> 00:04:54.994
We get in a conference room, and the boss
just doesn't show up to the meetings,
00:04:55.054 --> 00:05:00.114
and we're like, "Oh, okay, we don't know
what's going on." We finally find out
00:05:00.154 --> 00:05:02.314
that the boss is headed to meet with us.
00:05:02.834 --> 00:05:07.994
He sits there and listens to us get
started about 20 minutes in, and
00:05:08.034 --> 00:05:13.009
then he packs all his stuff , up
and walks out of the room Now, this
00:05:13.069 --> 00:05:14.829
was the dream or this was reality?
00:05:14.929 --> 00:05:21.129
This is reality, and I still have
dreams about, my brain just trying
00:05:21.169 --> 00:05:22.719
to reconcile, what was happening.
00:05:22.839 --> 00:05:23.979
Did that really happen?
00:05:24.099 --> 00:05:26.599
Did he just walk out of the
room not saying anything?
00:05:27.119 --> 00:05:28.099
What do we do?
00:05:28.459 --> 00:05:30.067
It revisits me occasionally.
00:05:30.168 --> 00:05:32.348
Did something happen I didn't know about?
00:05:32.408 --> 00:05:37.129
It was such an odd situation
that, that feels very vivid to
00:05:37.188 --> 00:05:40.469
me even in this moment, because
there was so much uncertainty.
00:05:41.709 --> 00:05:46.779
And it, and I knew then that reality
meant that this was going to be
00:05:46.898 --> 00:05:50.959
a difficult change for this team
that was already well-established.
00:05:50.988 --> 00:05:57.168
Within the course of one day, someone
had shifted the trust model in the team-
00:05:57.267 --> 00:06:04.008
Yep and altered the culture, and that
was probably 15, 20 years ago, and I
00:06:04.047 --> 00:06:08.897
still have such vivid memories of it,
and that was definitely a work- mare.
00:06:08.967 --> 00:06:11.297
And I still can't
comprehend, what happened.
00:06:12.597 --> 00:06:19.297
It's so funny that, I was in my 20s
when I was waiting tables, and I still
00:06:19.377 --> 00:06:24.764
remember that work mare to this day.
00:06:24.844 --> 00:06:30.804
When you're having those kind of dreams,
you have this kind of visceral reaction.
00:06:30.984 --> 00:06:36.584
You are living those feelings as
you're dreaming, and you wake up
00:06:36.624 --> 00:06:38.964
and you have to go to work, right?
00:06:39.384 --> 00:06:45.744
Having that kind of high-stress
situation that happened, I wanna say
00:06:45.804 --> 00:06:53.204
that it's the pressure of the culture
that kind of puts you on edge as a
00:06:53.264 --> 00:06:58.504
person that says, "If I don't get things
right, , I'm gonna be in trouble."
00:06:59.284 --> 00:06:59.884
Absolutely.
00:06:59.904 --> 00:07:03.884
In that particular example I just
gave of that change in leadership
00:07:04.004 --> 00:07:09.264
being such an odd, forced culture
shift for us- Mm-hmm by someone else,
00:07:09.744 --> 00:07:13.284
that I actually immediately started
applying for other jobs and left,
00:07:13.364 --> 00:07:14.874
I think, two or three weeks later.
00:07:15.904 --> 00:07:15.914
Yeah.
00:07:15.914 --> 00:07:22.664
Because it was such an impactful shift,
inside of a team that trust was already
00:07:22.704 --> 00:07:29.154
built to have that type of leadership,
I'll say example, 'cause they were
00:07:29.174 --> 00:07:31.474
definitely modeling a behavior for us.
00:07:31.734 --> 00:07:34.254
Not necessarily a behavior that
I think should have been modeled.
00:07:34.904 --> 00:07:34.914
Mm-hmm.
00:07:34.914 --> 00:07:41.054
But it's a huge impact to whether
the team is new and just forming
00:07:41.234 --> 00:07:45.184
or whether the team is fully
established, , shifts in trust and
00:07:45.334 --> 00:07:51.234
shifts in the culture either around
them or within them does fundamentally
00:07:51.314 --> 00:07:53.214
change the stress level of a team.
00:07:53.344 --> 00:07:58.144
I personally believe, seeing an intense
level of stress change for a team
00:07:58.264 --> 00:08:03.104
is absolutely going to impact those
humans and what they're worried about,
00:08:03.164 --> 00:08:06.954
maybe even having trouble sleeping
at night as a result of some of these
00:08:06.984 --> 00:08:09.464
changes that can happen in a culture.
00:08:09.514 --> 00:08:12.244
Those intense situations stay with you.
00:08:12.464 --> 00:08:18.244
I was an entrepreneur for most of my
adult life until my 40s when I made the
00:08:18.284 --> 00:08:21.094
decision to work in corporate America.
00:08:21.884 --> 00:08:25.304
When you're the boss, when you're
the CEO, the buck stops with you.
00:08:25.424 --> 00:08:32.204
You create the culture of your team,
of your company, and I personally
00:08:32.264 --> 00:08:34.924
hired everyone that worked with me.
00:08:35.264 --> 00:08:41.474
So I had a lot of control in my culture
that I created, and I intuitively
00:08:41.534 --> 00:08:45.754
knew people that would be cool with
the culture that I was creating.
00:08:45.814 --> 00:08:50.814
You don't have that luxury in corporate,
if you get hired in, a lot of times your
00:08:50.844 --> 00:08:55.674
team is already decided for you, and you
have to figure those other things out.
00:08:56.254 --> 00:09:01.504
One of the first places that I learned
one of my valuable lessons about
00:09:02.194 --> 00:09:08.554
corporate America was sometimes what they
say in a culture is okay is not okay.
00:09:08.554 --> 00:09:14.854
I was in my 40s, so I had life
experience, but I was naive to, they
00:09:14.934 --> 00:09:16.894
say it, but it doesn't mean it's true.
00:09:17.634 --> 00:09:21.134
And I remember I was in
an all-hands meeting,
00:09:23.174 --> 00:09:28.824
and even today I'm really good at seeing
elephants, i'm the first person that's
00:09:28.844 --> 00:09:30.464
gonna call out the elephant in the room.
00:09:30.524 --> 00:09:32.074
I'm like, "There he is.
00:09:32.604 --> 00:09:36.334
Why aren't people calling out the
elephant in the room?" And I didn't
00:09:36.344 --> 00:09:42.744
know any better, so I remember saying,
"Hey, I'm noticing we're having
00:09:42.904 --> 00:09:44.894
fire drills, every single week.
00:09:46.834 --> 00:09:49.874
I don't think we should be having
fire drills every single week.
00:09:49.934 --> 00:09:51.979
That doesn't make sense to me.
00:09:53.019 --> 00:09:58.679
Shouldn't we have a game plan and people
know ahead of time that these things are
00:09:58.719 --> 00:10:02.839
coming down the pipe, and that would give
people adequate amount of time to get
00:10:02.879 --> 00:10:07.829
things done so everybody doesn't have
to be so stressed?" And I had no idea
00:10:10.169 --> 00:10:14.469
what the ramifications of me saying
that in an all-hands would be.
00:10:15.369 --> 00:10:18.629
Needless to say, I was not
at that company weeks later.
00:10:19.429 --> 00:10:25.030
I was told in onboarding when I came
on, and even by other people that,
00:10:25.510 --> 00:10:28.750
"Hey, listen, we want honest feedback.
00:10:28.910 --> 00:10:33.849
If you see something that isn't
working, we want you to call it out.
00:10:33.969 --> 00:10:37.729
We want you to tell us so we can improve.
00:10:37.790 --> 00:10:39.469
We wanna hear these things."
00:10:39.889 --> 00:10:40.989
And that was not the case.
00:10:41.809 --> 00:10:47.410
They did not wanna hear the truth,
they did not want transparency, and
00:10:47.469 --> 00:10:50.889
they definitely didn't want somebody
to call out the elephant in the
00:10:51.009 --> 00:10:53.569
room in a meeting like an all-hands.
00:10:53.610 --> 00:10:58.967
And that was my first really tough
lessons being in corporate America,
00:10:59.006 --> 00:11:03.266
that sometimes what they tell you you
can say is not really what they want
00:11:04.751 --> 00:11:08.411
That's a hard lesson to learn,
especially if you're idealistic.
00:11:08.491 --> 00:11:13.151
One of the things I enjoy about
you is if you see a problem, you're
00:11:13.191 --> 00:11:14.650
going to try to help them fix it.
00:11:14.791 --> 00:11:17.951
You're gonna try to help the people
around you identify the problem
00:11:17.991 --> 00:11:19.191
and figure out how to fix it.
00:11:19.291 --> 00:11:23.651
I admire that about you, and my
brain works in a similar way.
00:11:23.691 --> 00:11:25.811
But yeah, I've been burned by that too.
00:11:25.971 --> 00:11:29.731
I remember during a change to our
company and someone was buying someone
00:11:29.791 --> 00:11:34.831
else, and we were moving servers, and
we had a large meeting, to figure out
00:11:34.871 --> 00:11:36.811
how server security needed to be redone.
00:11:37.711 --> 00:11:41.371
And I was like, "Hey, I've already
looked at my servers, and I think we
00:11:41.391 --> 00:11:47.091
need to reorganize security in this way
to match the new environment we're in."
00:11:47.151 --> 00:11:49.851
I was not listened to,
and I was pretty stubborn.
00:11:50.231 --> 00:11:51.551
Probably still am very stubborn.
00:11:52.271 --> 00:11:56.171
I was like, "I'm very confident that
my research shows I need to do this."
00:11:56.291 --> 00:12:01.650
So I implemented my method, 'cause
they didn't really have any suggestion
00:12:01.731 --> 00:12:08.191
for me, and I was not met with a
lot of excitement that I wanted.
00:12:08.321 --> 00:12:08.331
Mm-hmm.
00:12:08.391 --> 00:12:13.191
I wanted to really do this way that
I thought was going to be successful,
00:12:13.991 --> 00:12:15.411
, and was essentially, shut down.
00:12:15.511 --> 00:12:18.191
Like, "Don't bring up
the idea again." Mm-hmm.
00:12:18.241 --> 00:12:22.481
Um, "This is not what we're gonna do."
I did it for my little group of servers,
00:12:22.591 --> 00:12:27.231
and then a couple weeks later, we had
a, "Everyone needs to jump on the call.
00:12:27.651 --> 00:12:29.621
No one can get to any
of their shared drives.
00:12:29.671 --> 00:12:32.911
We gotta figure this out." And they're
like, "Okay, we're gonna get in the
00:12:32.991 --> 00:12:36.991
room, and everyone go one by one, and
you tell us exactly, like, where we
00:12:37.051 --> 00:12:40.871
need to jump in and help each other."
And we went around the room, and we got
00:12:40.931 --> 00:12:43.291
to me, and I was like, "Oh, I'm good.
00:12:43.351 --> 00:12:44.831
I don't have any problems to report."
00:12:44.911 --> 00:12:48.858
And they're like, " No, this is where
we're fixing the server security issues."
00:12:49.338 --> 00:12:51.818
And I'm like, "Nope, my structure is fine.
00:12:52.498 --> 00:12:54.008
No one's having any issues.
00:12:54.118 --> 00:12:59.508
I haven't had any customer calls." I would
be lying if I didn't say it felt good in
00:12:59.548 --> 00:13:04.087
that moment to have trusted myself and
have done something that ended up being
00:13:04.148 --> 00:13:07.088
a success, but it was super awkward.
00:13:08.048 --> 00:13:12.908
And I wondered to myself, are the people
in this room, were they listening?
00:13:13.028 --> 00:13:17.558
Are they able to see that I was trying
to be helpful and Do they wish now that
00:13:17.599 --> 00:13:19.599
they had been willing to listen to me?
00:13:20.678 --> 00:13:26.098
At that time, it was a culture of we
are gonna say we want your ideas, but
00:13:26.158 --> 00:13:29.938
we are going to shut them down if they
don't match our preconceived notions.
00:13:30.718 --> 00:13:34.438
That's a tough place to be, especially
if you're like the two of us
00:13:34.499 --> 00:13:36.558
where I want to fix your problems.
00:13:36.899 --> 00:13:36.978
Yeah.
00:13:37.098 --> 00:13:38.378
Even if I'm wrong.
00:13:39.109 --> 00:13:44.649
Even if my solution needs to be shifted
and I need to change based on your
00:13:44.730 --> 00:13:46.949
input, I just want us to get success.
00:13:47.129 --> 00:13:48.570
I just want us to do well.
00:13:49.109 --> 00:13:55.558
And it's hard to be in a workplace
culture that the words are there, but the
00:13:55.618 --> 00:14:01.378
behaviors actually break the psychological
safety that they are- Mm-hmm intending to
00:14:01.398 --> 00:14:03.598
build with the words they're telling you.
00:14:03.639 --> 00:14:05.258
That's a really tough place to be.
00:14:06.538 --> 00:14:07.538
Yeah.
00:14:07.639 --> 00:14:08.699
One of the
00:14:11.282 --> 00:14:21.383
Biggest aha moments for me was I was
at a corporate location that was just
00:14:21.463 --> 00:14:26.022
toxic to the core, and that's something
we can maybe talk about is a little bit
00:14:26.122 --> 00:14:30.422
about, what are some of the red flags
that you may be in a toxic culture.
00:14:31.002 --> 00:14:31.861
I had no idea.
00:14:31.961 --> 00:14:38.361
I was literally having health indicators
where, I went and got a wellness check,
00:14:38.521 --> 00:14:43.822
at the company, and my blood pressure
was, like, 150 over something because
00:14:43.921 --> 00:14:48.392
I was stressed out so much And they
were like, "Oh, this is really high."
00:14:48.433 --> 00:14:53.933
And I'm like, "Yeah, I've been really
stressed." And I remember my boss at the
00:14:54.032 --> 00:15:02.712
time came to me with this saying that I
just fundamentally, completely disagreed
00:15:02.792 --> 00:15:13.512
with, and he told me, "Our job is to
make chicken salad out of chicken crap."
00:15:17.565 --> 00:15:23.939
Wow yeah, and I'm like, if your main
ingredient is chicken crap, I don't
00:15:23.999 --> 00:15:31.459
care how you hide it, You're gonna
taste the crap if you try to eat chicken
00:15:31.539 --> 00:15:33.899
salad that is made with chicken crap.
00:15:34.579 --> 00:15:40.666
And it was his philosophy at the time, and
he was saying, This is the way we work."
00:15:41.506 --> 00:15:49.186
I eventually left that place, and I went
to, another place, and my boss was Brian
00:15:49.266 --> 00:15:51.695
Sullivan, who we've had on this show.
00:15:52.686 --> 00:15:57.406
And unprompted, it was one
of those universal things.
00:15:57.706 --> 00:15:59.296
I didn't have this conversation with him.
00:15:59.366 --> 00:16:05.526
Just unprompted, out of the blue,
he goes, "J, you cannot make
00:16:05.946 --> 00:16:08.786
chicken salad out of chicken crap."
00:16:09.206 --> 00:16:10.866
And I go, "Oh my gosh.
00:16:11.586 --> 00:16:17.486
I am in the right place," because I knew
fundamentally, and I couldn't believe
00:16:17.546 --> 00:16:22.266
that he had said that unprompted, and
it was such the reversal of what I had
00:16:22.306 --> 00:16:26.086
been told before, that I go, "Exactly.
00:16:26.326 --> 00:16:30.466
If you don't have the right
ingredients, you're not gonna be
00:16:30.546 --> 00:16:32.586
able to make something of quality."
00:16:32.636 --> 00:16:38.096
Anybody that's into food knows that the
ingredients are so important to making a
00:16:38.116 --> 00:16:45.276
great product, so these values, I think,
are more than just posters on the wall.
00:16:45.716 --> 00:16:50.276
They're more than just, what they
put on your ID badge in the back.
00:16:50.556 --> 00:16:59.156
If your culture doesn't actually believe
or, stand by what they put on those
00:16:59.256 --> 00:17:04.936
posters and on your badge, humans pick
up on that really quickly, especially
00:17:05.056 --> 00:17:07.276
if you've been in corporate for a while.
00:17:07.396 --> 00:17:10.366
I think that's almost one of the
litmus tests that people do, is
00:17:10.416 --> 00:17:13.806
they go in and say, "Is this for
real, or are you just saying it?"
00:17:13.981 --> 00:17:14.742
It's so true.
00:17:14.901 --> 00:17:21.301
It almost makes me wonder if that first
manager heard the phrase, misinterpreted
00:17:21.361 --> 00:17:26.302
it, and committed it, like reversed the
direction of the ingredients- No … and
00:17:26.321 --> 00:17:29.001
then committed it to, like, the- No, no.
00:17:29.361 --> 00:17:35.121
He- Like, honestly believed that … he
legitimately believed that was our job.
00:17:36.100 --> 00:17:36.800
Interesting.
00:17:37.500 --> 00:17:44.840
He legitimately said, "What we're getting
is bad, and our job is to make it edible."
00:17:46.600 --> 00:17:52.260
I just fundamentally said, "That's, that's
a bad way to start." I mean, any recipe.
00:17:52.720 --> 00:17:58.580
I don't care if it's a recipe for success,
good ingredients are the first thing.
00:17:59.440 --> 00:18:01.339
That is the most important thing.
00:18:01.819 --> 00:18:06.039
Any cooking show, any chef will
tell you, "Hey, start off with great
00:18:06.079 --> 00:18:10.169
ingredients. That's the first, best
way to have a high quality product."
00:18:10.889 --> 00:18:14.745
I felt in that culture like I
could be attacked at any moment.
00:18:15.206 --> 00:18:19.745
Anything I did that was a
misstep, I felt like I could be
00:18:19.805 --> 00:18:21.565
brought down upon, and I was.
00:18:21.605 --> 00:18:27.405
There were times when I was told,
"Hey, use the right logo." And I go,
00:18:27.645 --> 00:18:32.805
"There are 50 different versions of
this logo for various case studies.
00:18:32.905 --> 00:18:33.485
I'm new.
00:18:33.545 --> 00:18:34.825
I'm trying to figure this thing out.
00:18:35.065 --> 00:18:39.085
Can I get support on tell
me what is the right logo?"
00:18:39.365 --> 00:18:40.385
And he goes, "Figure it out."
00:18:42.721 --> 00:18:47.562
And when I moved to Brian, Brian
was like, "Hey, there's a lot.
00:18:47.761 --> 00:18:49.321
It's drinking through the fire hose.
00:18:50.321 --> 00:18:52.772
If you have any questions, let
me know and I'll support you.
00:18:52.812 --> 00:18:58.372
I'll help you out." And he did, I
think that actions, speak louder than
00:18:58.431 --> 00:19:03.140
words, is really one of the indicators
of a good culture, and that's a way
00:19:03.240 --> 00:19:06.250
that you start developing more of
what you referred to earlier, that
00:19:06.370 --> 00:19:09.050
psychological safety, in a corporation.
00:19:09.110 --> 00:19:14.350
I think that's the litmus test
over time, is that people's actions
00:19:14.390 --> 00:19:15.770
speak louder than the words.
00:19:16.290 --> 00:19:20.459
If you mess up and you're not, persecuted
and said, "Boy, that's point number
00:19:20.599 --> 00:19:25.760
one, you got two more and you're out,"
that really is not the type of culture
00:19:25.800 --> 00:19:28.420
that makes you wanna stay or grow.
00:19:28.460 --> 00:19:31.840
Because then if you do mess
up, you try to hide it, right?
00:19:31.960 --> 00:19:35.020
I think, and sweep things under the
rug because you go, "Gosh, I don't
00:19:35.041 --> 00:19:38.859
wanna be called out." If you really
need your job, I think Instead of
00:19:38.980 --> 00:19:43.299
asking, "Hey, I messed up, how can I
fix it?" They're going, That wasn't me.
00:19:43.549 --> 00:19:44.069
I agree.
00:19:44.119 --> 00:19:50.969
If I look back at the organizations that
I would, in hindsight, feel were pretty
00:19:51.019 --> 00:19:56.619
good or had really strong aspects to
their culture, they all had either a
00:19:56.699 --> 00:20:02.249
hopefulness- Mm-hmm … or an optimism
that they wanted you to succeed.
00:20:03.139 --> 00:20:08.799
And therefore, they understood that
meant giving you support and thinking
00:20:08.939 --> 00:20:11.839
of pitfalls they want you to avoid.
00:20:12.359 --> 00:20:17.739
Learn from my mistakes so that you don't
have to make them as a way of operating
00:20:17.799 --> 00:20:22.199
with not only your employees if you're
a manager, but your colleagues and your
00:20:22.259 --> 00:20:28.079
stakeholders coming to the situations
with a perspective of, like this
00:20:28.139 --> 00:20:31.739
whole thing is a tough world to be in.
00:20:32.259 --> 00:20:32.309
Mm-hmm.
00:20:32.388 --> 00:20:35.849
In corporate America, most of my
experience is corporate America, so that's
00:20:35.909 --> 00:20:39.519
the bulk of my experience to speak from.
00:20:39.569 --> 00:20:43.149
If you come to it, and that's the way
I've always wanted to come to my teams
00:20:43.429 --> 00:20:49.289
is, I want you to succeed or I would not
have put you here in the first place.
00:20:49.299 --> 00:20:49.309
Yeah.
00:20:49.409 --> 00:20:55.429
I want to do what I can to help you
be successful, and that means telling
00:20:55.469 --> 00:20:59.969
you how to learn from the things I've
done wrong so that you don't have to
00:20:59.989 --> 00:21:01.969
make those mistakes all over again.
00:21:02.909 --> 00:21:07.889
In the organizations where it's almost
feels like a hazing ritual, like I-
00:21:07.919 --> 00:21:12.949
Mm-hmm … went through pain, therefore
you must go through pain, has become
00:21:13.009 --> 00:21:18.949
a signal to me of a culture that I
am not personally gonna fit well in,
00:21:19.079 --> 00:21:21.119
because I want to fix the problems.
00:21:21.659 --> 00:21:22.039
Mm-hmm.
00:21:22.669 --> 00:21:27.989
Therefore, that means we need the
freedom to experiment and help each
00:21:28.049 --> 00:21:33.649
other through mistakes instead of having
every minor mistake being, "Aha!" Mm-hmm.
00:21:34.769 --> 00:21:39.879
Having that freedom to learn from your
mistakes together has a hopefulness that
00:21:39.959 --> 00:21:46.619
has felt to me like a sign of, if not
a great, a good and improving culture.
00:21:48.099 --> 00:21:52.259
As I'm sitting here talking to you,
maybe I haven't completely learned my
00:21:52.299 --> 00:21:58.819
lesson, even though I've been in corporate
America now for, over 15 years I think.
00:21:58.959 --> 00:22:00.959
When I met you, I disclosed.
00:22:01.059 --> 00:22:03.099
I said, "Hey, I am not good at this.
00:22:03.519 --> 00:22:07.619
There are some things I'm really not
good at." I think that was a little
00:22:07.679 --> 00:22:12.419
bit of a trust olive branch to you
to say, " "Hey, I'm really not good
00:22:12.459 --> 00:22:15.309
at this thing," and you could have
used it against me, and you didn't,
00:22:16.199 --> 00:22:20.679
You said, "Okay, he's being vulnerable,
he's being honest." And it wasn't
00:22:20.739 --> 00:22:26.049
because I just wanna say, "Oh, hey,,
I don't wanna do this work." I don't
00:22:26.059 --> 00:22:28.809
think I ever shied away from doing work.
00:22:28.909 --> 00:22:33.189
I just let you know, "Hey, if there's
a clock on this work, I'm not the
00:22:33.209 --> 00:22:34.469
person you wanna put on this."
00:22:35.089 --> 00:22:38.909
If this needs to be done really
quickly and it has to be perfect,
00:22:39.929 --> 00:22:41.069
you don't wanna put me on it.
00:22:41.339 --> 00:22:44.819
I'm willing to do the work, but there are
some things I'm gonna take a lot longer
00:22:44.859 --> 00:22:46.630
than other people that's their jam.
00:22:47.310 --> 00:22:51.670
Now, when it comes to facilitation
and dealing with really high stress,
00:22:51.970 --> 00:22:56.710
high stakeholder things and where
anything can go wrong, I'm your guy.
00:22:56.810 --> 00:23:00.710
I'm the one that can get in there
and manage those really challenging
00:23:00.810 --> 00:23:06.430
human, situations better than a lot
of people because that's my jam.
00:23:07.110 --> 00:23:13.130
And I think when I lead teams, I try
to instill in my team that we're all
00:23:13.150 --> 00:23:17.130
in this together, that different people
are gonna have different strengths.
00:23:17.930 --> 00:23:19.390
We wanna play to those strengths.
00:23:19.820 --> 00:23:23.400
I've said this before, we need
to watch each other's back.
00:23:23.450 --> 00:23:29.130
Because there will come a day that's
that oh, crap moment where you're
00:23:29.150 --> 00:23:34.250
gonna need your teammates to chip
in, stay after hours, maybe help you
00:23:34.410 --> 00:23:40.290
out to get something done, and you do
that because your day will come, too.
00:23:40.810 --> 00:23:44.590
Your day, your oh, crap moment is
gonna come, too, and you're gonna want
00:23:44.670 --> 00:23:49.491
your teammates to chip in with you,
and that's that bond of a good team,
00:23:49.651 --> 00:23:54.881
that psychological safety you have,
and knowing that when that day comes,
00:23:54.891 --> 00:24:00.021
hopefully, people will also stay after
work or do whatever needs to be done
00:24:00.051 --> 00:24:05.371
to support you in the same way that you
supported them in their moment of need.
00:24:07.734 --> 00:24:11.935
Maybe all of us are listening
to this episode because we
00:24:12.074 --> 00:24:13.494
agree that we think- Mm-hmm
00:24:14.034 --> 00:24:18.774
culture is important, and we
can know that it impacts every
00:24:18.914 --> 00:24:20.535
human that's in that culture.
00:24:20.594 --> 00:24:23.254
It is impacting their personal
life to one way or another.
00:24:23.814 --> 00:24:27.894
It is either a healthier culture that
allows you to close your laptop at the
00:24:27.954 --> 00:24:33.614
end of the day, take a deep breath, go
home, and go on about your life, or, is
00:24:33.654 --> 00:24:40.195
it a culture that you close that laptop,
that deep breath is like a bracing type
00:24:40.256 --> 00:24:44.335
of breath because you know that there's
going to be pain in the evening, or that
00:24:44.395 --> 00:24:49.756
you're consumed by stress about maybe
that, "Did I say that email correctly?
00:24:49.795 --> 00:24:51.195
Is someone gonna get mad at that?
00:24:51.335 --> 00:24:54.885
I talked to someone I don't usually
talk to." I've been in environments
00:24:54.925 --> 00:24:58.705
where I would get in trouble to
even speaking to another person-
00:24:58.806 --> 00:25:00.305
Mm-hmm … in another team.
00:25:00.365 --> 00:25:05.885
So I think we can all agree that the
culture you're working in is not only
00:25:05.925 --> 00:25:09.465
important for the quality of your
work, but the quality of your life.
00:25:10.166 --> 00:25:10.185
Mm-hmm.
00:25:10.265 --> 00:25:16.866
At the end of the day, my hope is
that- None of us have to deal with work
00:25:16.946 --> 00:25:20.196
mares and are sleeping stressfully.
00:25:21.236 --> 00:25:27.136
I've definitely come to realize
that a culture is going to be a
00:25:27.216 --> 00:25:32.736
much higher factor in where I'm
going to place myself in the future
00:25:33.556 --> 00:25:35.336
than perhaps it was in the past.
00:25:36.096 --> 00:25:36.216
Yep.
00:25:37.096 --> 00:25:38.036
For various reasons.
00:25:38.106 --> 00:25:41.886
We all would go through life phases
where survival feels vital, and
00:25:41.926 --> 00:25:46.216
we'll put up with culture problems
that we may not have otherwise.
00:25:46.916 --> 00:25:51.196
But it's a super important part
of your decision-making for where
00:25:51.216 --> 00:25:52.456
do you want your career to go?
00:25:52.596 --> 00:25:59.306
For product and design, there's multiple
facets for what makes you feel good about
00:25:59.306 --> 00:26:04.956
your work every day, and I think culture
is a huge piece of my decision-making
00:26:04.996 --> 00:26:09.936
for what I want to be and where I
want to place myself in the future.
00:26:09.956 --> 00:26:15.586
Then there's also super important aspects,
for product and design, do I wanna
00:26:15.626 --> 00:26:18.806
work on a project that's more exciting?
00:26:18.846 --> 00:26:19.006
Mm-hmm.
00:26:19.026 --> 00:26:22.536
More … that has a tie to an interest.
00:26:23.306 --> 00:26:29.146
Our friend Shane works at a company
who has, some tools to help people,
00:26:29.826 --> 00:26:33.056
I think connect with different
RV parks maybe, even one- Mm-hmm
00:26:33.056 --> 00:26:33.786
of the tools they have.
00:26:34.606 --> 00:26:38.446
I'm low-key obsessed with tiny
homes and RV parks, and so part of
00:26:38.476 --> 00:26:43.646
me was like, see, that's an example
of, a call to a personal interest.
00:26:44.026 --> 00:26:44.056
Mm-hmm.
00:26:44.066 --> 00:26:47.966
Wouldn't that be cool to work
someplace that has a personal interest?
00:26:48.066 --> 00:26:49.066
Maybe you like pets.
00:26:49.606 --> 00:26:53.206
Maybe you've thought to yourself,
"Oh, what if I worked at Chewy?"
00:26:53.306 --> 00:26:58.166
That's a whole different part of
working, if not only a strong culture,
00:26:58.266 --> 00:27:01.786
but maybe an interesting product
that you're supporting or designing.
00:27:02.446 --> 00:27:07.256
I think Culture is a vital part of our
decision-making and a way to really
00:27:07.556 --> 00:27:10.996
impact and pour into the people that
you're working with on a daily basis.
00:27:12.096 --> 00:27:16.446
Now, what's interesting about
nowadays, and we've had a bunch of
00:27:16.476 --> 00:27:19.386
shows, where we've talked about AI.
00:27:19.386 --> 00:27:25.396
In the past, a lot of companies
say they want to do innovative work
00:27:27.702 --> 00:27:31.961
A lot of companies say they
wanna be market leaders.
00:27:32.961 --> 00:27:39.102
They want to create features or products
or designs that go beyond just the parity
00:27:39.161 --> 00:27:42.142
of the competitors they're going against.
00:27:43.501 --> 00:27:51.140
And, being an expert in design strategy
and design thinking, one of the things
00:27:51.260 --> 00:27:57.700
I know from reading countless books
on the topic is all of the great
00:27:57.820 --> 00:28:05.381
inventions that we enjoy today those
inventors had multiple failures.
00:28:06.680 --> 00:28:11.980
Edison, with the light bulb, that's one
of the ones people talk about, is that
00:28:12.060 --> 00:28:15.601
10,000 wrong ways to make a light bulb.
00:28:16.360 --> 00:28:20.840
The Wright brothers and all the different
versions of the plane they tried to
00:28:20.879 --> 00:28:25.149
get up, and when they first flew it
wasn't that long, and there was multiple
00:28:25.229 --> 00:28:28.009
iterations in truly being innovative.
00:28:28.118 --> 00:28:32.298
When you are trying to be innovative,
I think one of the requirements of
00:28:32.438 --> 00:28:36.518
cultures that allow for innovation
are cultures that allow for failure
00:28:38.878 --> 00:28:43.798
And, you know, I mean, I
personally try to be innovative.
00:28:44.058 --> 00:28:46.518
I tell my bosses I'm more like Babe Ruth.
00:28:46.598 --> 00:28:50.317
If you look at his stats, yes,
everybody knows him for home runs,
00:28:50.777 --> 00:28:53.757
but take a look at his stats for
how many times he struck out.
00:28:54.918 --> 00:29:00.358
And I will tell my boss, "Hey, listen, I'm
gonna hit the rafters a lot, but when I
00:29:00.419 --> 00:29:03.298
mess up big because I'm always going big."
00:29:03.919 --> 00:29:07.978
And I've told that to almost every
single boss I've worked for where I felt
00:29:08.079 --> 00:29:13.759
psychologically safe, and I've said,
"Just expect I'm gonna come to you and
00:29:13.878 --> 00:29:18.978
tell you, 'Hey, boss, here's how I just
messed up big.' And I just want it to
00:29:19.038 --> 00:29:24.178
come from me so you're not surprised."
And that has happened almost in every job
00:29:24.218 --> 00:29:26.538
because I am trying to go for big plays.
00:29:26.639 --> 00:29:28.318
I am trying to make a big difference.
00:29:28.818 --> 00:29:30.378
I am being authentic.
00:29:30.818 --> 00:29:32.938
I am trying to make a difference.
00:29:33.258 --> 00:29:37.778
And when you play that way, there are
gonna be situations where it's not gonna
00:29:37.838 --> 00:29:40.878
go well, and, it's gonna come down on you.
00:29:41.217 --> 00:29:42.897
Now, for me personally, I own it.
00:29:43.137 --> 00:29:44.457
I don't try to hide it.
00:29:44.558 --> 00:29:47.929
Like I said, I'll go to my boss first
so they don't hear it through the
00:29:47.988 --> 00:29:51.428
grapevine and say, " Hey, I think I
just really messed up, and here's how.
00:29:51.678 --> 00:29:56.898
That's a great example of how to be the
positive change in a culture yourself.
00:29:57.298 --> 00:29:57.318
Mm-hmm.
00:29:57.318 --> 00:30:00.658
'Cause it's not just a
consuming of culture.
00:30:00.769 --> 00:30:05.569
For the time that you are in a group,
you are also impacting that culture.
00:30:05.669 --> 00:30:11.150
So that's a great model that you show
for your manager- Mm-hmm … and for
00:30:11.209 --> 00:30:16.889
your coworkers to own up to the failures,
because they are a part of the process.
00:30:17.509 --> 00:30:24.270
Especially for the world that we live in
product and design, there are guidelines,
00:30:24.531 --> 00:30:31.290
there are recommendations, there are
frameworks, but every product, every
00:30:31.430 --> 00:30:37.950
user base combination is unique in many
ways, and we are all experimenting.
00:30:38.031 --> 00:30:43.230
It's one of the reasons I'm glad I get to
do continuous product discovery- Mm-hmm
00:30:43.270 --> 00:30:48.290
to experiment so that we can all
acknowledge together that we are going
00:30:48.330 --> 00:30:53.550
to do experiments, which inherently
means some of them will not succeed.
00:30:54.070 --> 00:30:54.090
Right.
00:30:54.110 --> 00:30:58.451
But through the process of doing them
together there are opportunities in
00:30:58.491 --> 00:31:03.451
the product and design world for us
to use those moments of where things
00:31:03.471 --> 00:31:08.371
didn't go perfectly to help build
the culture towards innovation, to
00:31:08.411 --> 00:31:10.251
help each other manage the stress.
00:31:10.351 --> 00:31:11.911
No one wants to make a mistake.
00:31:12.691 --> 00:31:12.781
Right.
00:31:12.871 --> 00:31:16.311
Or I've never met a human that was
like, "I love making mistakes."
00:31:16.951 --> 00:31:22.131
I've met lots of humans who value
the learning from being honest
00:31:22.151 --> 00:31:24.931
about a mistake and trying to
figure out how not to make it again.
00:31:25.451 --> 00:31:29.751
But I think that's an important way
for each of us, an individual, to be a
00:31:29.811 --> 00:31:34.651
part of that psychological safety and
to build an organization around us that
00:31:34.731 --> 00:31:37.281
is a place where innovation can grow.
00:31:37.991 --> 00:31:44.591
Because in this world of, extreme
rates of tool changes, like not just-
00:31:44.661 --> 00:31:50.131
Mm-hmm … technology changes, but
the tools being introduced and being
00:31:50.231 --> 00:31:56.271
bought and being merged and being
shut down, like the rate feels even
00:31:56.311 --> 00:31:59.471
more frenetic than it has in the past.
00:31:59.591 --> 00:32:02.911
This is where we need to be pulling
it together to help manage the
00:32:02.951 --> 00:32:08.671
change, navigate the change, use
our collective knowledge to build
00:32:08.711 --> 00:32:13.271
some really great products, and
that has always been tough to do.
00:32:13.391 --> 00:32:18.211
I think rate of change is increasing
the complexity around trying to do
00:32:18.311 --> 00:32:19.991
this thing, innovation, well together.
00:32:20.711 --> 00:32:26.821
I hope a lot of organizations can
manage, innovations in a way that
00:32:26.921 --> 00:32:29.941
you've discussed and being able
to talk about our shortcomings
00:32:29.961 --> 00:32:31.161
so that we can fix them together.
00:32:32.331 --> 00:32:36.911
One of the phrases that I hear a lot in
companies that are wanting to be more
00:32:36.951 --> 00:32:45.331
innovative is fail fast, but again, I
go back to what I said at the beginning.
00:32:45.351 --> 00:32:46.210
Do they really mean it?
00:32:46.460 --> 00:32:50.560
Because a lot of times people will look
and say, " How long did you spend on this?
00:32:50.700 --> 00:32:55.910
Two weeks, and this is the result?"
And then it's almost, in some cultures,
00:32:56.080 --> 00:33:04.540
as if you get a stain on you, because
look how much time and money wasted.
00:33:05.360 --> 00:33:06.480
We can't afford that.
00:33:07.060 --> 00:33:14.980
We can't afford to lose." When you
create that kind of culture, you create
00:33:14.990 --> 00:33:20.510
a culture that is more than likely not
gonna be innovative, because if you
00:33:20.930 --> 00:33:27.190
publicly punish people or get rid of
them, or because they fail, people learn
00:33:27.270 --> 00:33:31.810
really quickly that if they wanna keep
their job, that they better play it safe.
00:33:32.490 --> 00:33:35.830
And when you play it safe,
you're not gonna be innovative.
00:33:37.310 --> 00:33:38.140
You're just not.
00:33:38.830 --> 00:33:42.640
You're gonna come up with a common
response zone of products, or you're
00:33:42.650 --> 00:33:47.990
gonna look at other people and how they're
doing it, because then you can justify
00:33:48.030 --> 00:33:52.460
why you're doing what you're doing,
and you're gonna, play it really safe.
00:33:52.980 --> 00:33:59.610
I remember at SMU, I went to a
creativity talk, and I can't remember
00:33:59.620 --> 00:34:01.370
the gentleman's name who was speaking.
00:34:02.020 --> 00:34:06.400
At, at one point he's considered to be one
of the creativity experts, and I should
00:34:06.440 --> 00:34:08.220
know, I just can't remember right now.
00:34:10.040 --> 00:34:13.080
But he told me something in the
talk that I've never forgotten.
00:34:14.620 --> 00:34:22.320
He said a lot of companies want to be
innovative, and a lot of times they'll
00:34:22.380 --> 00:34:26.140
approach companies and say, "Hey,
listen, we wanna do something really
00:34:26.200 --> 00:34:28.480
creative and innovative with our logo."
00:34:29.540 --> 00:34:37.340
"Okay, cool." And for a really
creative person, you might go, going,
00:34:37.400 --> 00:34:43.350
"Wow, if their logo's blue, let's
explore red or orange or, purple
00:34:43.449 --> 00:34:49.110
or, some other wild color and let's
be truly creative and let's explore
00:34:49.190 --> 00:34:51.330
all sorts of really awesome ideas."
00:34:52.430 --> 00:35:01.390
And he goes, "That's not what they
want." Their idea of uber creative is,
00:35:01.830 --> 00:35:05.810
"Okay, right now your logo is dark blue.
00:35:07.570 --> 00:35:08.130
Wait a minute.
00:35:09.710 --> 00:35:16.610
What if we made it light blue?" Oh my God.
00:35:17.550 --> 00:35:19.410
Oh my God, you are a genius.
00:35:20.030 --> 00:35:22.930
And you know I'm not kidding.
00:35:24.865 --> 00:35:28.385
You know that's exactly what
happens, and companies get paid
00:35:28.945 --> 00:35:38.606
hundreds of thousands of dollars
to turn dark blue logos light blue.
00:35:38.856 --> 00:35:40.776
We see it all the time.
00:35:40.857 --> 00:35:44.486
Someone will be like, "Brand new logo,"
and they'll unveil it, and I'm like,
00:35:45.946 --> 00:35:48.926
"That was a fairly minor change." Right.
00:35:49.546 --> 00:35:55.666
Can't you tell the kerning and the sizing
in the A is different, can't you see the
00:35:55.826 --> 00:35:59.006
huge impact that it's made on our brand?
00:35:59.646 --> 00:36:01.407
Uh, no I can't.
00:36:01.767 --> 00:36:07.768
Listen, there are other examples that
I've seen recently where people have
00:36:07.867 --> 00:36:15.068
rebranded, and I've literally thought,
"Did you go to freefonts.com and look
00:36:15.187 --> 00:36:21.607
up '90s retro and make that font?"
That's literally what I've thought.
00:36:21.667 --> 00:36:24.447
When I saw that, I go, "I don't
know how much money you spent, but
00:36:24.547 --> 00:36:25.887
I could've saved you a lot more.
00:36:25.987 --> 00:36:30.627
For 25% of what you probably spent, I
could've come up with something a lot
00:36:30.688 --> 00:36:35.848
better than what I'm seeing now." It does
go both ways, but I think there's this
00:36:35.907 --> 00:36:43.008
inherent fear of truly being creative,
and culture makes a huge difference.
00:36:43.787 --> 00:36:46.368
Companies are saying,
"We want to go beyond.
00:36:46.408 --> 00:36:52.447
We want to be a market leader," but
if the culture doesn't facilitate that
00:36:52.567 --> 00:37:00.467
kind of exploration, they're handcuffing
themselves to just mediocre features that
00:37:00.527 --> 00:37:04.287
they're gonna release in their products
that truly aren't gonna be innovative
00:37:04.367 --> 00:37:07.887
and not make the difference I think
they wanna make in the marketplace.
00:37:09.788 --> 00:37:18.348
I am hopeful, yet very apprehensive
that as companies rush to throw their
00:37:18.408 --> 00:37:26.308
resources and strategy towards AI, that
they lose sight of that their humans
00:37:26.448 --> 00:37:35.128
could be released to be more creative if
the tasks can be managed through AI, as
00:37:35.168 --> 00:37:37.728
opposed to AI being the end-all, be-all.
00:37:38.288 --> 00:37:41.428
I'm hopeful that there will be
companies who understand, and I think
00:37:41.508 --> 00:37:47.008
IKEA has already done this, where
they have employees displaced by AI,
00:37:47.108 --> 00:37:50.108
but they ended up re-skilling them
and getting them into new roles.
00:37:50.138 --> 00:37:55.338
There's opportunities as we're
implementing AI in companies.
00:37:55.468 --> 00:38:03.218
I am hopeful that leadership at some level
is asking themselves, we are… We need to
00:38:03.278 --> 00:38:07.378
understand that there's an impact to our
culture- Mm-hmm … with the shift towards
00:38:07.458 --> 00:38:15.198
AI, and now our humans could be released
to be more creative and innovative.
00:38:15.878 --> 00:38:21.598
If you are in a high-trust,
high-innovation culture, you may tend
00:38:21.678 --> 00:38:23.938
towards those type of decision-making.
00:38:24.958 --> 00:38:24.968
Mm-hmm.
00:38:25.028 --> 00:38:30.568
Using the innovation from humans
increasingly so as things can be
00:38:30.648 --> 00:38:34.967
offloaded to AI, versus a company
that is super high control.
00:38:35.748 --> 00:38:39.958
I fear that culture with an
AI model is going to tend into
00:38:40.078 --> 00:38:41.898
how can I use AI to control?
00:38:42.378 --> 00:38:47.558
If they are already tending towards a
control and command type of environment
00:38:47.698 --> 00:38:52.838
or whatever the culture is, I think
how they look into the future and
00:38:52.858 --> 00:38:57.618
how their companies will run, I think
culture is just as important as it
00:38:57.698 --> 00:39:01.798
always has been and will be increasingly
important to pay attention to.
00:39:03.285 --> 00:39:04.566
I couldn't agree with you more.
00:39:04.826 --> 00:39:10.666
Cultures that think that AI is gonna
be the silver bullet for them to be
00:39:10.806 --> 00:39:16.226
innovative, if they have not in the
past created cultures that allow for
00:39:16.327 --> 00:39:22.386
innovation, just by having an AI strategy,
I don't think that is going to be the
00:39:22.466 --> 00:39:27.506
silver bullet they think it is because
they don't have a culture that will allow
00:39:28.286 --> 00:39:36.066
for the exploration, experimentation,
iteration that AI is going to require
00:39:36.726 --> 00:39:42.667
to create those next level features
and products that they're wanting to.
00:39:44.086 --> 00:39:49.965
I think a focus on culture becomes
more important with each passing day,
00:39:50.185 --> 00:39:52.005
especially with the introduction of AI.
00:39:52.125 --> 00:39:57.725
And not less important, it continues to
be a vital topic for us to consider as
00:39:57.805 --> 00:40:02.305
we work day in and day out together to
build great products and great designs.
00:40:02.405 --> 00:40:04.384
I think this has been
fantastic, discussion.
00:40:04.431 --> 00:40:08.961
You said it earlier, the quote
from Peter Drucker, "Culture
00:40:09.301 --> 00:40:11.161
eats strategy for breakfast."
00:40:11.411 --> 00:40:13.811
.Thanks for listening to
Pixels and Priorities.
00:40:14.291 --> 00:40:18.041
Follow and subscribe for more
conversations at the intersection
00:40:18.071 --> 00:40:19.901
of product and design.
00:40:20.471 --> 00:40:21.701
See you next time.
