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Hello and welcome to Pivot Points. This is the podcast about the pivotal moments that have shaped our academic, professional and personal lives.
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I'm Sam Cooke, your head of communications at Wilson College. And I'm all about creating ways for you to share your stories like this podcast.
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Do you feel?
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Candidate Esto Paolo's has been on a journey in academia, from biomedical chemistry to physics, all the way to geography and sustainable food systems.
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She's driven to make an impact in the world, and she's starting right here at Wolfson with her involvement in college governance.
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You and I know each other a little bit through generally life at Wolfson, right?
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Yeah, that's what I was. I mean, bumped into each other in a few different spaces.
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That's actually true. I think we first met each other at the Olympics.
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Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So. And then also through the green team.
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That's true. Mm hmm. And to, like, college governance and general.
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So. Food. Survey stuff.
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Yeah, food surveys. So can you tell us a little bit about what you're doing here at Wilson?
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So I'm a student at Wilson. I'm doing a little environmental science.
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I started by doing a master, and I was a Wilson student by then as well.
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And then I was one year of an associate member. So, yeah, I would say generally I'm a student at Wilson, and now I've taken up some of the,
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like, more governance related roles, just trying to help out.
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Mm hmm. Um, so I'm part of the subcommittee for the Food and for Catering, and I'm also vice chair of General Meeting.
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So I'm representing the student body in the governance of the college.
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Yeah. And you're studying food systems? I'm studying food systems.
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Exactly. So I'm looking to talk us through that in layman's terms for us.
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I mean, the good thing is that just started, right? So I don't know anything about layman's terms right now.
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So what I'm trying to understand is how to build resilience within the food system.
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So, um, the way our food system currently works,
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it's arguably not sustainable in a sense that we're like degrading the soil in many parts of the earth.
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We are having big issues with biodiversity loss and also, um, yeah.
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Increasing climate change through unsustainable agricultural practices and stuff.
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So we the question is like,
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how can you get the food system into a more sustainable state and then also maintain it that that's what resilience basically means, like trying to.
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Like let it stay in a state where, like, we are having enough food for the world population.
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That's the goal. But then at the same time, we don't degrade the environment.
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We have good economic outcomes as well. So people who earn their living in food system are not like affected by poverty and stuff like that.
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And as well that you have like social and cultural values which are attached to that they are thriving.
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That's the idea. And hence your involvement as Kayseri rep to the college.
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Yeah, I kind of. I mean, that was more an accident, to be honest.
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I know Freddy, who is the former chair of general meeting,
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and he was at some point asking me about like, Hey, we've got this position within the college.
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We need a catering rep. Would you be interested in doing that?
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And I was like, Yes, why not? As life happens.
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And so that's how I ended up there. But it's useful to have a background in foods.
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Yeah, because you're just. I feel like, more involved in the topic already, so.
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Yeah, somehow, like a little bit of a practical application.
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Yeah. And it's also kind of I feel like it profits my research as well, right?
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Because I actually see what might be the real life problems, if you like, make a smart plan how you can, I don't know,
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make the food system better and then at some point you realise this is actually not at all applicable in right where you live.
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Very different than the real world. Exactly. So it's it's good to have this like groundwork as well.
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Yeah, I think so. So can you talk me through your academic journey a little bit?
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So you you said you studied three times of biomedical chemistry and then you switched to physics, right?
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And now you're studying food systems. So talk me through that journey and how we got to where we are today.
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It is a very long story. Sorry. And we have time.
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Yeah. I mean, the thing is like it it's not even that exciting, but so it started off basically after school.
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Like, I guess every academic journey starts at some. You're German?
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I'm German. Yeah, exactly. So I'm I a school not knowing what to do, like basically having no idea what to do.
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My problem was I kind of liked all subjects in school, so I was always like, I can't really choose and don't want to limit myself.
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And what I knew from the start is that I wanted to do something which has a meaning to me.
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So some way I felt like helping society, helping humanity in like a broad sense, but how I didn't know.
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So I was thinking about maybe I should be a teacher or I should do medical science, which was one of the ideas.
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And so I think I focussed on medical science because it's a way to like combine a lot of different research fields.
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So you need physics and a bit you need biology, you need medicine, you need chemistry.
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So that was kind of a way to combine as many sciences as possible.
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And there was this one course in my hometown university in mines where they had biomedical chemistry, which is basically everything at once.
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Right. So I started doing that and there were two things that I quite soon realised, but it took me a time to actually make a decision on that.
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So the first thing that I realised is that I started a course in chemistry.
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It says biomedical chemistry. But the thing like the, the big word in it is chemistry and that's what you're studying.
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And did you realise that before you started it or.
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I did somehow, but I didn't know to what extent it would be chemistry and not biomedical chemistry in the sense that I had.
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I think in my whole three terms I had three courses on, but as biology and medicine and the rest was all chemistry courses.
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So the second thing that I realised during that time was I'm not really a person who's to or I don't feel really well placed in a laboratory.
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I'm not a I don't know, I just like I prefer theoretical work in some way, at least if it comes to laboratory work.
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So I love interacting with people, but I'm not really a person who's like as her,
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for example, standing in front of like things which are very dangerous.
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Like there are some chemicals which can easily kill you within seconds, or even worse,
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they kind of introduce like cancerous processes in your body and you might get cancer like
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ten years later without even realising that you're like poisoning yourself right now.
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So I was like really anxious about that. So that was something that is not yeah, it's just not for me.
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So I was studying it and after some time I was like, Okay, this is really not my not.
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My course of study, I should do something else. So based on the environment, you kind of felt like it wasn't your place.
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Yeah. Like, based on the. Based on.
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I don't know, based on the. So I couldn't picture myself doing something related to chemistry later on and I
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couldn't picture myself continue doing chemistry for another extended time period,
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which would happen, I mean, maybe after my masters I would do, I don't know,
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work in a different feel or do a default related to like in more medical topics so I don't have to be in laboratory.
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But even then, I was wondering, would I be happy if I would spend my life in the laboratory in some way?
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And I answer that question with no. And then something else happened.
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I had in my third term, I had a course which was for physical chemistry.
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And what we did was quantum mechanics. And I was fascinated.
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I was like really fascinated by the whole topic I like.
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That was the first course where I was really sitting there and really enjoying myself.
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And it was like after just three times I was like, okay, I know I don't really like laboratory work.
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And the course of that that I enjoyed most for the whole time of my studies were math, physics and physical chemistry.
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And I was like, Okay, maybe there's a theme here, maybe there's a theme,
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maybe it's just just say no to every laboratory, work for now and just go to physics.
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So that made me switch to physics. But my problem was that that kind of.
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Conflicted with my other theme, which was like, I want to do something meaningful and useful.
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And my problem with physics always was through my studies that I really loved it.
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It's beautiful. I feel like it's like, Ma, the math behind it is beautiful.
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The logic is beautiful. I like the way you can, like, derive things.
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That was for me, always the thing that I like most that I don't actually have to remember that much.
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I can derive things as I go and things suddenly make sense.
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And it's also fun to see where you actually don't know how how our current knowledge is actually fitting into the picture.
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And they're concurring or. I'm missing the word here.
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Sorry. I'm making this. I would jump in, but math is not my area.
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Oh, no, no, no. I'm talking about there's a competition between different knowledge theories.
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So that's also interesting to see. But it's not really directly useful in a sense that you could say, okay, it's,
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I don't know, contribution to, like human health in general in some way.
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So when I switched to physics, I was for some time thinking, okay,
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I might just stop on that like idea of doing medical research and long run, but I didn't want to let it go completely in the beginning.
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So what I did, I studied physics and medicine at the same time.
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So in Germany as in your undergrad? Yes. Okay. So you're quite a journey on your undergrad.
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Yeah, I did. So the thing was like, medicine is like it's not like in the U.S. where you have to go to medical school after you study,
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but you can study medicine from the go. And that's what I did.
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So I studied medicine and physics at the same time.
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And then I said, okay, I'll give myself one term, and after this one term I will decide whether I do medicine or physics.
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And like, I think after three weeks it was clear to me I will do physics, not medicine.
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Like that was not a decision to make actually. So I did physics, I did a lot of physics.
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I loved it. I went into particle physics because I did work in a research group in my university.
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So this was still in mind where I was working for some project which is related to Sun.
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So I even went to CERN for three months, which was really, really nice.
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And during that time period I already kind of knew, still knowing that, I don't know, like, like work that much,
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that I would rather go into theoretical physics because I really like this theoretical beauty.
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So that's what I did. And I thought, okay, maybe I can apply for an only theoretical master.
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And there was this one master course in Oxford, which is called mathematics and theoretical physics.
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I thought perfect for me. So that's why I applied.
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So you can have your master's. Exactly. And I was lucky enough to get in.
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So. Yeah.
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But by the time that I wanted to start my masters, I was still kind of confused about what should I do on the long run because I liked the work,
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but I was still not see myself as a like researcher in physics, not because I don't like it, but because I was like, Is it like it's my liking?
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It's enough to keep me fuelled for the rest of my career.
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So at that point you didn't see yourself as a pure academic in research?
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Yeah, I just didn't know how to apply it in a in a way that is really meaningful to me.
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Like, I mean, it's fun doing it, but it's like, just like, I mean,
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I think I didn't even think about going into anything but academia because I think it's sometimes quite hard to work as a physicist,
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especially a theoretical physicist if you don't stay in academia.
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So I can picture myself those jobs. I was. Yeah, exactly.
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Exactly. So most theoretical physicists I know who did not end up going to academia are doing something completely different,
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like consulting or like working in some company, doing some, I don't know, math related stuff, engineering, something like that.
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So it's really hard to like. Picture your journey ahead.
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And by that time, I got quite involved into climate activism like I.
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It kind of developed on the side all the time.
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But when I came back from CERN, I had one professor, which I was working with in this like research group in my hometown university,
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what I was talking about, and he was part of the scientist for future team and in my university, and I asked him whether I could get involved.
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And during this whole time of the application and stuff, I was more and more involved into this like climate community.
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So we were thinking about starting something where we can advise local policy makers for like how to build cities more sustainably.
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We started like a poster of, Yeah, a poster.
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How would you call that? Did you did you find that practical experience at that level?
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Did that give you a different sense of confidence than when you started trying to shift your academic work in that direction as well?
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It did. So I think it was actually start like the reason why I shifted it was because I realised like,
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this is a problem that I really see that we have to start working on and it's very, really urgent and it's really real world.
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And I was like, I really want to I want to contribute in solving this issue also,
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because I think the more I got involved in it, the more I realised how bad the situation is.
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And I think I'm always saying this as a joke, but I think it's there's some truth in that.
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It's kind of a therapy. So I could either read the IPCC and cry or I can read the IPCC and decide to start acting on those things.
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So yeah, I think that was the reason why I then said, okay, I want to do something into this like direction in general.
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But I had no, I have no idea how.
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Yeah. And I think what happened was it was actually quite funny.
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I was on a cycling tour and I was I was cycling.
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I think I was just cycling into the city, but I was having my headphones and that habit never do it.
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It's not recommended. It was exactly what I was listening to a podcast and in this podcast I mentioned Frederico ATU,
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which is a professor who is a was a professor at Oxford,
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now is a professor at Imperial, and she's doing or started something which is called the World Weather Attribution Project.
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And what they're trying to do is to understand how much humans or human action has influenced certain extreme weather events.
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So like the probability of a certain event occurring in a climate which would have not
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been influenced by humans and a climate with human induced greenhouse gas emissions,
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and how that would change the probabilities. And she's a theoretical physicist, and I was like, This is fascinating.
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First of all, her research is fascinating, but also the fact that she was a theoretical physicist kind of got me into like,
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Hey, there's like a world of that where you can be a physicist,
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maybe not so much doing physics anymore, but still doing something, math and physics related,
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and you could actually like work on that and like apply your skills and in the way that are actually useful directly.
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So you found a bit of a role model? Exactly. So I was and I figured out that she was an Oxford.
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I literally just heard her name and what she was doing. And then I started my own research, like, what is she actually doing?
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Whereas yeah, exactly. And I figured out she's an Oxford, and I was like, Hey, I'm going for like cars in Oxford.
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I will do something completely different. Yeah, but I mean, it's the same university.
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There has to be a chance of, like, writing an email.
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So I wrote her over here. Yes. Right. Yeah.
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So, so like, I wrote an email being like, Hey, I really, really love your research.
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It's so interesting, by the way, I'm starting a cause.
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It's like in physics and math, it's not really related to any environmental stuff, but do you know that courses which I can take,
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which are more environmental related and do you think I could write to you, get in with your heroes for doing it?
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You're going to be sent an email response and offers, and I got to respond.
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I still remember that that day when I was like getting the response.
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I was sitting there like. She actually wrote to me about that.
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I didn't see that coming at all. But see, I asked her whether I could do a massive thesis with her,
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which didn't work out in the end because the maths department was not happy in trying to do a do a thesis in like math and physics course,
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which is not market physics. Yeah, it did not work.
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But yeah, so I'm going to devote this.
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I did get an email to raise funds. And yeah, that kind of got me into.
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Into switching into like environmental science and stuff.
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So I stayed in the department, so her department, so she was in the side by then, which is the Environmental Change Institute.
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And so, yeah, I started working in the Environmental Change Institute for a year after I finished my master's degree.
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Is also working on food, actually. So you did this year, then you had a year of working at the Institute?
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Exactly. And then I started my dphil, and I'm in the first year, so that's how my journey went.
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But that's how I ended up in environmental science more broadly.
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And food was basically because I worked in food research for that.
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Like it was modelling. Yeah. So I think that was the reason why I was asked to do this job, because they were like, Hey,
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you know how to model and it's food related, but you don't actually need to know anything about food.
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It's more about like actually building the model.
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You need to have this like more coding and understanding more skills and not so much dough food system skills.
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But that kind of got me into this like Whole Foods sphere and it introduced me to my now supervisor, my Dphil Yeah,
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so there's a little moment that we skipped over, which is your moment of coming to Oxford and coming to the UK.
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So you're German, you grew up in Germany, you grow up in mountains.
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Yes. Which is also where you went to university. Yes. So how did it feel for you coming in?
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It was quite an experience,
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but I think it was a very different experience for like maybe normal times or
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compared to normal times just because it was in the middle of COVID you arrived in.
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Exactly. So I was it's not normal time. I know.
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I remember getting here and I was like, So first of all, getting here was it was a journey, right?
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I tried to not fly just because of environmental concerns.
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So do you have the idea of like, how do I get to the UK without like, the thing is, like when you came from certain countries,
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you would need to quarantine a lot depending on like where you travelled to and stuff like that.
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So I remember I had to check because my mum, she drove me with her car to Oxford so that I could take some more stuff with me and don't have to fly.
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But the funny thing was we drove to France and I was like,
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If France has like too many COVID cases and you have to quarantine when you come from France,
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even though you don't have to quarantine when you come from Germany, I might still need to quarantine.
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So it was like they have that to the very last minute.
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I was like really afraid of that.
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But then I moved into a big house, which was actually Queen's accommodation with ten other students, most of them students and students in one house.
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Yes, but to me it's student experience. To be honest, it was great.
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I was so grateful because I feel if I would have not lived in a big house, I would have been lonely.
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So lonely because everything was lockdown.
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Like there was no chance of going into the department. All my lectures were online.
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There was no like organised group activities, nothing.
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I mean, even the college was very cautious about, Yeah,
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members of our communities which are either having like a greater risk of having a serious COVID case or also we have some families living on site.
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So they were also trying to protect those families, right.
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Sort of college was very restrictive and who they let in on the ground and what kind of activities can take place.
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And I was so lucky because my household was so big that we could actually spend a lot of time together.
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So I think that also brought us quite close just because, I mean,
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if you're lockdown together and you're hanging out in the kitchen every single evening or go to we had an enormous garden, which was great.
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So you go to the garden or you do sports in the morning together.
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We went on runs together and stuff like that. You had a good set up. Yeah, that was good.
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Just like, honestly, the best thing that could have happened to me.
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So I was super happy about that. And then academically,
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What was your experience like of settling in here and how does that experience differ to the experience of your hometown university?
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I think also that might be quite, I guess, hindered also.
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Yeah, it was in the part of the social aspect of the university.
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I think that was so I feel like I had no interaction with Michael, like I had some interaction with my cohort, but very, very little.
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I knew like four or five people out of my whole card and we did like sometimes work on exercise sheets together via Zoom,
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which was more or less working because you can't really see what other people write.
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No one of us had the set up to actually like stream.
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I don't know. They're writing on an iPad while I have like a set up where you can actually see them and talk to them and stuff like that.
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So it was really hard to like work together as you would normally do.
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I remember just before the exams when it was already getting a bit better in terms of like COVID restrictions.
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We would meet in some of the cafes in Oxford City Centre and sit outside on a table like pouring rain,
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and we would sit under this like very small umbrella,
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not trying to not get out of like sheets of paper completely soaked such that you can read nothing any more.
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But it was, yeah, it was quite sad because after I finished my last exams and I mean I think we were also quite conscious before
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the exams because no one wanted to get COVID right before the exams because that would have screwed everything.
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But after the exams we kind of all met together and that's when I actually got to know my cohort.
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And there were such lovely people and I was like, This is so sad.
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I could have had such an amazing time with you guys, and I just didn't know you at all, which is so sad.
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And now do you feel like you've developed a good social circle and.
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Yes, yeah, Yes, I feel like now it's very different, right?
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Because with my Dphil cohort and first of all, my department is doing an amazing job for us to get to know each other.
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So that very like supportive in a sense that we for example,
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I have coffee mornings every week and in those coffee mornings they kind of sponsor
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us that we have like some snacks and coffee and then the details just meet and
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talk and everyone can like express their thoughts and like their current problems
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and what they're enjoying doing and what their plans are and stuff like that.
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So it's kind of a support group which is really nice.
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And also after I finished my Masters and I started doing the research job here, I actually got to know more people from the college.
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And then I, I just love the college community.
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Like, yeah, students are lovely, staff is lovely people.
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Like I feel it's a very welcoming and accepting community as well.
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So I feel like I can be myself, which is great.
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That's very nice. And I know you live off site as well, right?
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So it's great that you still feel that sense of community and collegiality even though you're living elsewhere.
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Yeah, that's true. I'm still living with the people that I left for for my first year.
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Really In the. Yes. Ten person house. Exactly. So not all of them.
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Not all of that. Some of them finished right.
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The Masters students left and some were like, I don't know, like they basically did their own thing quite a lot, but they like the core people.
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One of them unfortunately graduated. What means? Unfortunately, he graduated.
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I'm very proud of him. Yeah, exactly. But the rest of us are still around and we're living together still so great.
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And what's your kind of what's your routine with what's and like, how often do you come in?
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What do you do when you come here. Mhm. What's your college life like.
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Okay. That's actually a good question. I mean it really depends.
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I feel like it has gotten even more intense now,
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but I feel like I'm often getting in in the mornings that I sometimes go to the gym, sometimes a lot of the day.
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And I work often in the cafe which is lovely,
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drink some nice cappuccino with milk and do some work so you give yourself some treatment doing during working time.
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And yeah, I often go to the at the common room as well.
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I don't actually go to the library that often. And then after that I have like a lot of like other stuff going on.
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So I'm going to some dancing society staff or I'm singing in a choir.
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But sometimes I play with the music society here.
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So we did some gigs or like for example, now with the ball we played at the ball or I'm,
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I don't know, like I'm lately I'm in a lot of meetings actually with the college governance.
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Yeah. Which is also very interesting to see to like see.
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All those things that you experience as a student come into play and how they're planned.
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Well, let's talk through that a little bit because. I think that's something that comes up a lot, right?
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Like, I think people naturally have feelings and opinions about what goes on in their college
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environment and don't necessarily know that they can get involved and have a say in that.
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That's true. So what was your. So you mentioned Freddie.
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Told you about the catering position, and then you've also got involved in general meeting.
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Yes. So what was your experience about?
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So first of all, I mean, I had my first general meeting yesterday, actually, and it was very, very interesting.
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I'm not sure if I got your question correctly. Do you want to know, like how I got into that more or do I think like how you got into it?
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But also what sparked your feeling that you wanted to get into it?
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I think for me it's always like when I see something which I would like to improve or like where I have an idea of what you could do.
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I'm always like, I can't complain without at least trying to change it.
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So I think that was driving me to do this. And that's the same attitude that seems to have got you involved in food systems as well.
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Yeah, exactly. It's always the same. It's always like I'm feeling responsible for doing something.
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And I mean, knowing Freddie helped a lot, right? Because I knew someone who was already doing this and who knew who to speak to.
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And I mean, generally those positions get advertised through the college.
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So it's not something where you have to know someone,
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but it's more like he made me aware of that because we get letters from the college which are telling you,
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okay, those are the events happening, those are the positions here.
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We need some student representative here, We need some help here. You can have your say, maybe a survey or something.
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But often because you get so many emails, they just get lost somewhere and you don't read them thoughtfully, as you should.
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So I feel like it helped me quite a lot to just see that the opportunities are there.
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And then I just yeah, I just applied basically.
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So. And what is it that you want to impact or change within the college?
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So there are several things which I think I would like to act on.
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So one of the things is like, as you mentioned, I'm not living on college side and I've never lived on college side.
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And I feel sometimes there's quite a divide between students who live in college and students who don't live in college.
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So, for example, I've got some people in my cohort who are actually Wharton students but who never come in.
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I can never see them. And one of the reasons because they're never coming in is because they just don't live in college.
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And this is an effort for them to come in because it's quite far north.
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I mean, at quotation marks, it's like, yeah, exactly.
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The thing is like it's not that far out, but in Oxford, in the grand scheme of things, you can cycle across it in 15 minutes.
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Sorry, I'm cycling in from the other end of the city in 25 minutes in the morning.
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It's okay. And I'm a very slow cyclist. A cyclist?
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No know, but I feel like. Like you have a reason to come here or you need a reason to come here.
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And sometimes it's also like just practical things. Like for example,
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we're now trying to advertise that there are lockers available for students so
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that people who don't come in every day have the opportunity to lock some stuff.
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And if you're like, for example, playing tennis and you want your racket to be stored in college because you
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don't want to take your racket home every single time you want to play tennis,
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it makes some sense to just store it in college and keep it here or have a spare set of clothes.
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If the rain is starting again and you get soaked on you on your cycle here, which happens to me quite often.
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So things like this that you like have a more in the know that like them both students communities you've got like people
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living inside and people living outside like growing together more and that there's more exchange between those two worlds.
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So that's something that I would like to achieve. I think the second thing what I'm really passionate about is food.
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I'm trying to you're working quite closely with Michael, who's our head chef.
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Exactly. And I would like to improve on sustainability and vegan and vegetarian food.
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Not so much the taste.
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I think we just run a survey and I mean, I can talk about the results so too much now because they're not officially released yet,
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but I feel like people in general weren't too, like too unhappy about the food.
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So it seems like in general people are quite happy about it.
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But there are still some things that you could do to like, improve to take up on vegan and vegetarian food,
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especially since the college has a sustainability strategy and they want to be like or they want to reach net zero this like this year.
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So I feel like having a yeah, going alongside with a well thought through food and catering related strategy would actually be just natural.
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And I mean, it's hard because you don't want to force anyone to eat vegan, vegan or vegetarian.
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I think it's more like actually increasing the visibility and like trying to.
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Like raise awareness. What are the consequences if you eat meat and dairy products?
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Maybe I should mention that I'm vegan myself, just that there's like no confusion about that.
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But so yeah, we're talking about maybe also one of the questions, for example, in the survey was,
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is it okay for students of members of the college in general to have, for example, a meat free day each week,
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just that you have like one day a week where you just have more vegetarian vegan options but no meat,
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and maybe that makes you discover your new favourite dish, which is kind of lonely with spinach and halloumi cheese, whatever.
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Like, I don't know if this actually goes well together.
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But the thing is, like, Ed, maybe, maybe you would like, find something else that you like which does not have meat but is still tasty.
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So yeah, it's about that. I'm trying to push for like more sustainability in that respect.
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So outside of college life then, and thinking about your current academic career and where you might want to go next and also in your personal life,
352
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what are you dreaming of right now? What I'm dreaming of in like academic terms?
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I mean, finishing this dphil this is a dream.
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The big finish date year at least. I do know like, I mean, you start out by saying three years, but then nearly everyone I know is doing four.
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You know, I'm not sure I should go for I don't know.
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But at some point in time I would like to finish it not too far ahead.
357
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And as for the longer run, I'm actually quite unsure.
358
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Currently, I would like to am torn between two things.
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I really like academia, but then I'm also like, where can I have the biggest impact?
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And I might actually like to go somewhere where I can have like more direct policy impact.
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So I don't know, being in a in a big organisation like the FAO or the UN or the W.H.O. or something like that,
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where you can actually like work on real life problems and not just the academic side would be nice,
363
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or being an academic advisor for something like that would be something that I would be interested in because I feel like,
364
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yeah, I would like to apply my research in a way that is useful in a practical way.
365
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Yeah, that would be nice. And where is there anywhere specific in the world that you see yourself doing that?
366
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That's a good question because I'm not a person who's going on fieldwork,
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which is very sad, and models and models are not necessarily needing you to go elsewhere.
368
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And there are a lot of people in my world who are like going to all different kind of places from South Africa to Indonesia to Australia, everywhere.
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I don't know. I think it's more a question of where the opportunity opens up and what the specific circumstances are,
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because currently I wouldn't be like I think I would be happy everywhere with like, I don't know.
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So I think it really depends on how long I would stay there and what the like situation would be in general.
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Because I think one thing that I realised living abroad is that one thing, the only thing basically for me,
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which makes me a lot sad, is that you're not seeing your family and friends home that often.
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And I'm very like, I'm a big family person, so I really love my sister, I really love my parents, my grandparents, like my cousins.
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It's it's really nice to have them around me and it's so sad that I see them now much less frequently than I used to.
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And living abroad, especially if it's overseas in the sense that you're going to the US or to Asia or Africa,
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that you actually have long distances to travel.
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The pandemic kind of also showed me that it's sometimes it can really be not just a six or seven hour flight,
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it can be in like, yeah, a real border in a sense, if you can't transport.
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And I mean, I'm so lucky because I've got a German passport I can get into most countries in this world rather easily.
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But I have friends who are from very different countries and for them,
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just going to Europe is now a hassle because their visa is telling them you can go to
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the UK and the UK only and I feel this is something that you shouldn't just ignore.
384
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So I would be open to go everywhere, but I would really need to have a think about it before I go.
385
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Yeah. No, I agree I. I think that's very important. You've got to think about where you're.
386
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Where you feel most grounded, I think. Yes. Yeah. Well, here's to seeing more family and close friends in the future, then.
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Yeah. Let's see. Maybe I can convince them to come here. Yeah, I think so.
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Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Yeah, it's great to have you.
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Hope I didn't talk too much.
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Hello and welcome to Pivot Points. This is the podcast about the pivotal moments that have shaped our academic, professional and personal lives.
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I'm Sam Cooke, your head of communications at Wilson College. And I'm all about creating ways for you to share your stories like this podcast.
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Do you feel?
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Candidate Esto Paolo's has been on a journey in academia, from biomedical chemistry to physics, all the way to geography and sustainable food systems.
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She's driven to make an impact in the world, and she's starting right here at Wolfson with her involvement in college governance.
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You and I know each other a little bit through generally life at Wolfson, right?
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Yeah, that's what I was. I mean, bumped into each other in a few different spaces.
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That's actually true. I think we first met each other at the Olympics.
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Yeah. Yeah, exactly. So. And then also through the green team.
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That's true. Mm hmm. And to, like, college governance and general.
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So. Food. Survey stuff.
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Yeah, food surveys. So can you tell us a little bit about what you're doing here at Wilson?
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So I'm a student at Wilson. I'm doing a little environmental science.
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I started by doing a master, and I was a Wilson student by then as well.
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And then I was one year of an associate member. So, yeah, I would say generally I'm a student at Wilson, and now I've taken up some of the,
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like, more governance related roles, just trying to help out.
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Mm hmm. Um, so I'm part of the subcommittee for the Food and for Catering, and I'm also vice chair of General Meeting.
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So I'm representing the student body in the governance of the college.
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Yeah. And you're studying food systems? I'm studying food systems.
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Exactly. So I'm looking to talk us through that in layman's terms for us.
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I mean, the good thing is that just started, right? So I don't know anything about layman's terms right now.
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So what I'm trying to understand is how to build resilience within the food system.
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So, um, the way our food system currently works,
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it's arguably not sustainable in a sense that we're like degrading the soil in many parts of the earth.
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We are having big issues with biodiversity loss and also, um, yeah.
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Increasing climate change through unsustainable agricultural practices and stuff.
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So we the question is like,
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how can you get the food system into a more sustainable state and then also maintain it that that's what resilience basically means, like trying to.
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Like let it stay in a state where, like, we are having enough food for the world population.
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That's the goal. But then at the same time, we don't degrade the environment.
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We have good economic outcomes as well. So people who earn their living in food system are not like affected by poverty and stuff like that.
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And as well that you have like social and cultural values which are attached to that they are thriving.
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That's the idea. And hence your involvement as Kayseri rep to the college.
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Yeah, I kind of. I mean, that was more an accident, to be honest.
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I know Freddy, who is the former chair of general meeting,
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and he was at some point asking me about like, Hey, we've got this position within the college.
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We need a catering rep. Would you be interested in doing that?
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And I was like, Yes, why not? As life happens.
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And so that's how I ended up there. But it's useful to have a background in foods.
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Yeah, because you're just. I feel like, more involved in the topic already, so.
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Yeah, somehow, like a little bit of a practical application.
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Yeah. And it's also kind of I feel like it profits my research as well, right?
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Because I actually see what might be the real life problems, if you like, make a smart plan how you can, I don't know,
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make the food system better and then at some point you realise this is actually not at all applicable in right where you live.
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Very different than the real world. Exactly. So it's it's good to have this like groundwork as well.
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Yeah, I think so. So can you talk me through your academic journey a little bit?
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So you you said you studied three times of biomedical chemistry and then you switched to physics, right?
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And now you're studying food systems. So talk me through that journey and how we got to where we are today.
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It is a very long story. Sorry. And we have time.
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Yeah. I mean, the thing is like it it's not even that exciting, but so it started off basically after school.
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Like, I guess every academic journey starts at some. You're German?
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I'm German. Yeah, exactly. So I'm I a school not knowing what to do, like basically having no idea what to do.
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My problem was I kind of liked all subjects in school, so I was always like, I can't really choose and don't want to limit myself.
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And what I knew from the start is that I wanted to do something which has a meaning to me.
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So some way I felt like helping society, helping humanity in like a broad sense, but how I didn't know.
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So I was thinking about maybe I should be a teacher or I should do medical science, which was one of the ideas.
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And so I think I focussed on medical science because it's a way to like combine a lot of different research fields.
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So you need physics and a bit you need biology, you need medicine, you need chemistry.
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So that was kind of a way to combine as many sciences as possible.
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And there was this one course in my hometown university in mines where they had biomedical chemistry, which is basically everything at once.
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Right. So I started doing that and there were two things that I quite soon realised, but it took me a time to actually make a decision on that.
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So the first thing that I realised is that I started a course in chemistry.
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It says biomedical chemistry. But the thing like the, the big word in it is chemistry and that's what you're studying.
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And did you realise that before you started it or.
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I did somehow, but I didn't know to what extent it would be chemistry and not biomedical chemistry in the sense that I had.
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I think in my whole three terms I had three courses on, but as biology and medicine and the rest was all chemistry courses.
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So the second thing that I realised during that time was I'm not really a person who's to or I don't feel really well placed in a laboratory.
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I'm not a I don't know, I just like I prefer theoretical work in some way, at least if it comes to laboratory work.
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So I love interacting with people, but I'm not really a person who's like as her,
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for example, standing in front of like things which are very dangerous.
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Like there are some chemicals which can easily kill you within seconds, or even worse,
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they kind of introduce like cancerous processes in your body and you might get cancer like
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ten years later without even realising that you're like poisoning yourself right now.
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So I was like really anxious about that. So that was something that is not yeah, it's just not for me.
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So I was studying it and after some time I was like, Okay, this is really not my not.
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My course of study, I should do something else. So based on the environment, you kind of felt like it wasn't your place.
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Yeah. Like, based on the. Based on.
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I don't know, based on the. So I couldn't picture myself doing something related to chemistry later on and I
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couldn't picture myself continue doing chemistry for another extended time period,
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which would happen, I mean, maybe after my masters I would do, I don't know,
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work in a different feel or do a default related to like in more medical topics so I don't have to be in laboratory.
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But even then, I was wondering, would I be happy if I would spend my life in the laboratory in some way?
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And I answer that question with no. And then something else happened.
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I had in my third term, I had a course which was for physical chemistry.
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And what we did was quantum mechanics. And I was fascinated.
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I was like really fascinated by the whole topic I like.
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That was the first course where I was really sitting there and really enjoying myself.
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And it was like after just three times I was like, okay, I know I don't really like laboratory work.
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And the course of that that I enjoyed most for the whole time of my studies were math, physics and physical chemistry.
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And I was like, Okay, maybe there's a theme here, maybe there's a theme,
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maybe it's just just say no to every laboratory, work for now and just go to physics.
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So that made me switch to physics. But my problem was that that kind of.
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Conflicted with my other theme, which was like, I want to do something meaningful and useful.
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And my problem with physics always was through my studies that I really loved it.
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It's beautiful. I feel like it's like, Ma, the math behind it is beautiful.
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The logic is beautiful. I like the way you can, like, derive things.
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That was for me, always the thing that I like most that I don't actually have to remember that much.
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I can derive things as I go and things suddenly make sense.
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And it's also fun to see where you actually don't know how how our current knowledge is actually fitting into the picture.
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And they're concurring or. I'm missing the word here.
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Sorry. I'm making this. I would jump in, but math is not my area.
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Oh, no, no, no. I'm talking about there's a competition between different knowledge theories.
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So that's also interesting to see. But it's not really directly useful in a sense that you could say, okay, it's,
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I don't know, contribution to, like human health in general in some way.
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So when I switched to physics, I was for some time thinking, okay,
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I might just stop on that like idea of doing medical research and long run, but I didn't want to let it go completely in the beginning.
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So what I did, I studied physics and medicine at the same time.
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So in Germany as in your undergrad? Yes. Okay. So you're quite a journey on your undergrad.
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Yeah, I did. So the thing was like, medicine is like it's not like in the U.S. where you have to go to medical school after you study,
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but you can study medicine from the go. And that's what I did.
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So I studied medicine and physics at the same time.
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And then I said, okay, I'll give myself one term, and after this one term I will decide whether I do medicine or physics.
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And like, I think after three weeks it was clear to me I will do physics, not medicine.
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Like that was not a decision to make actually. So I did physics, I did a lot of physics.
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I loved it. I went into particle physics because I did work in a research group in my university.
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So this was still in mind where I was working for some project which is related to Sun.
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So I even went to CERN for three months, which was really, really nice.
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And during that time period I already kind of knew, still knowing that, I don't know, like, like work that much,
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that I would rather go into theoretical physics because I really like this theoretical beauty.
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So that's what I did. And I thought, okay, maybe I can apply for an only theoretical master.
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And there was this one master course in Oxford, which is called mathematics and theoretical physics.
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I thought perfect for me. So that's why I applied.
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So you can have your master's. Exactly. And I was lucky enough to get in.
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So. Yeah.
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But by the time that I wanted to start my masters, I was still kind of confused about what should I do on the long run because I liked the work,
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but I was still not see myself as a like researcher in physics, not because I don't like it, but because I was like, Is it like it's my liking?
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It's enough to keep me fuelled for the rest of my career.
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So at that point you didn't see yourself as a pure academic in research?
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Yeah, I just didn't know how to apply it in a in a way that is really meaningful to me.
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Like, I mean, it's fun doing it, but it's like, just like, I mean,
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I think I didn't even think about going into anything but academia because I think it's sometimes quite hard to work as a physicist,
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especially a theoretical physicist if you don't stay in academia.
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So I can picture myself those jobs. I was. Yeah, exactly.
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Exactly. So most theoretical physicists I know who did not end up going to academia are doing something completely different,
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like consulting or like working in some company, doing some, I don't know, math related stuff, engineering, something like that.
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So it's really hard to like. Picture your journey ahead.
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And by that time, I got quite involved into climate activism like I.
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It kind of developed on the side all the time.
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But when I came back from CERN, I had one professor, which I was working with in this like research group in my hometown university,
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what I was talking about, and he was part of the scientist for future team and in my university, and I asked him whether I could get involved.
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And during this whole time of the application and stuff, I was more and more involved into this like climate community.
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So we were thinking about starting something where we can advise local policy makers for like how to build cities more sustainably.
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We started like a poster of, Yeah, a poster.
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How would you call that? Did you did you find that practical experience at that level?
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Did that give you a different sense of confidence than when you started trying to shift your academic work in that direction as well?
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It did. So I think it was actually start like the reason why I shifted it was because I realised like,
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this is a problem that I really see that we have to start working on and it's very, really urgent and it's really real world.
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And I was like, I really want to I want to contribute in solving this issue also,
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because I think the more I got involved in it, the more I realised how bad the situation is.
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And I think I'm always saying this as a joke, but I think it's there's some truth in that.
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It's kind of a therapy. So I could either read the IPCC and cry or I can read the IPCC and decide to start acting on those things.
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So yeah, I think that was the reason why I then said, okay, I want to do something into this like direction in general.
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But I had no, I have no idea how.
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Yeah. And I think what happened was it was actually quite funny.
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I was on a cycling tour and I was I was cycling.
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I think I was just cycling into the city, but I was having my headphones and that habit never do it.
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It's not recommended. It was exactly what I was listening to a podcast and in this podcast I mentioned Frederico ATU,
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which is a professor who is a was a professor at Oxford,
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now is a professor at Imperial, and she's doing or started something which is called the World Weather Attribution Project.
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And what they're trying to do is to understand how much humans or human action has influenced certain extreme weather events.
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So like the probability of a certain event occurring in a climate which would have not
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been influenced by humans and a climate with human induced greenhouse gas emissions,
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and how that would change the probabilities. And she's a theoretical physicist, and I was like, This is fascinating.
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First of all, her research is fascinating, but also the fact that she was a theoretical physicist kind of got me into like,
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Hey, there's like a world of that where you can be a physicist,
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maybe not so much doing physics anymore, but still doing something, math and physics related,
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and you could actually like work on that and like apply your skills and in the way that are actually useful directly.
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So you found a bit of a role model? Exactly. So I was and I figured out that she was an Oxford.
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I literally just heard her name and what she was doing. And then I started my own research, like, what is she actually doing?
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Whereas yeah, exactly. And I figured out she's an Oxford, and I was like, Hey, I'm going for like cars in Oxford.
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I will do something completely different. Yeah, but I mean, it's the same university.
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There has to be a chance of, like, writing an email.
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So I wrote her over here. Yes. Right. Yeah.
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So, so like, I wrote an email being like, Hey, I really, really love your research.
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It's so interesting, by the way, I'm starting a cause.
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It's like in physics and math, it's not really related to any environmental stuff, but do you know that courses which I can take,
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which are more environmental related and do you think I could write to you, get in with your heroes for doing it?
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You're going to be sent an email response and offers, and I got to respond.
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I still remember that that day when I was like getting the response.
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I was sitting there like. She actually wrote to me about that.
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I didn't see that coming at all. But see, I asked her whether I could do a massive thesis with her,
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which didn't work out in the end because the maths department was not happy in trying to do a do a thesis in like math and physics course,
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which is not market physics. Yeah, it did not work.
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But yeah, so I'm going to devote this.
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I did get an email to raise funds. And yeah, that kind of got me into.
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Into switching into like environmental science and stuff.
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So I stayed in the department, so her department, so she was in the side by then, which is the Environmental Change Institute.
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And so, yeah, I started working in the Environmental Change Institute for a year after I finished my master's degree.
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Is also working on food, actually. So you did this year, then you had a year of working at the Institute?
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Exactly. And then I started my dphil, and I'm in the first year, so that's how my journey went.
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But that's how I ended up in environmental science more broadly.
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And food was basically because I worked in food research for that.
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Like it was modelling. Yeah. So I think that was the reason why I was asked to do this job, because they were like, Hey,
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you know how to model and it's food related, but you don't actually need to know anything about food.
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It's more about like actually building the model.
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You need to have this like more coding and understanding more skills and not so much dough food system skills.
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But that kind of got me into this like Whole Foods sphere and it introduced me to my now supervisor, my Dphil Yeah,
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so there's a little moment that we skipped over, which is your moment of coming to Oxford and coming to the UK.
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So you're German, you grew up in Germany, you grow up in mountains.
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Yes. Which is also where you went to university. Yes. So how did it feel for you coming in?
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It was quite an experience,
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but I think it was a very different experience for like maybe normal times or
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compared to normal times just because it was in the middle of COVID you arrived in.
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Exactly. So I was it's not normal time. I know.
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I remember getting here and I was like, So first of all, getting here was it was a journey, right?
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I tried to not fly just because of environmental concerns.
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So do you have the idea of like, how do I get to the UK without like, the thing is, like when you came from certain countries,
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you would need to quarantine a lot depending on like where you travelled to and stuff like that.
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So I remember I had to check because my mum, she drove me with her car to Oxford so that I could take some more stuff with me and don't have to fly.
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But the funny thing was we drove to France and I was like,
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If France has like too many COVID cases and you have to quarantine when you come from France,
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even though you don't have to quarantine when you come from Germany, I might still need to quarantine.
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So it was like they have that to the very last minute.
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I was like really afraid of that.
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But then I moved into a big house, which was actually Queen's accommodation with ten other students, most of them students and students in one house.
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Yes, but to me it's student experience. To be honest, it was great.
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I was so grateful because I feel if I would have not lived in a big house, I would have been lonely.
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So lonely because everything was lockdown.
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Like there was no chance of going into the department. All my lectures were online.
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There was no like organised group activities, nothing.
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I mean, even the college was very cautious about, Yeah,
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members of our communities which are either having like a greater risk of having a serious COVID case or also we have some families living on site.
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So they were also trying to protect those families, right.
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Sort of college was very restrictive and who they let in on the ground and what kind of activities can take place.
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And I was so lucky because my household was so big that we could actually spend a lot of time together.
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So I think that also brought us quite close just because, I mean,
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if you're lockdown together and you're hanging out in the kitchen every single evening or go to we had an enormous garden, which was great.
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So you go to the garden or you do sports in the morning together.
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We went on runs together and stuff like that. You had a good set up. Yeah, that was good.
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Just like, honestly, the best thing that could have happened to me.
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So I was super happy about that. And then academically,
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What was your experience like of settling in here and how does that experience differ to the experience of your hometown university?
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I think also that might be quite, I guess, hindered also.
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Yeah, it was in the part of the social aspect of the university.
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I think that was so I feel like I had no interaction with Michael, like I had some interaction with my cohort, but very, very little.
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I knew like four or five people out of my whole card and we did like sometimes work on exercise sheets together via Zoom,
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which was more or less working because you can't really see what other people write.
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No one of us had the set up to actually like stream.
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I don't know. They're writing on an iPad while I have like a set up where you can actually see them and talk to them and stuff like that.
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So it was really hard to like work together as you would normally do.
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I remember just before the exams when it was already getting a bit better in terms of like COVID restrictions.
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We would meet in some of the cafes in Oxford City Centre and sit outside on a table like pouring rain,
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and we would sit under this like very small umbrella,
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not trying to not get out of like sheets of paper completely soaked such that you can read nothing any more.
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But it was, yeah, it was quite sad because after I finished my last exams and I mean I think we were also quite conscious before
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the exams because no one wanted to get COVID right before the exams because that would have screwed everything.
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But after the exams we kind of all met together and that's when I actually got to know my cohort.
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And there were such lovely people and I was like, This is so sad.
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I could have had such an amazing time with you guys, and I just didn't know you at all, which is so sad.
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And now do you feel like you've developed a good social circle and.
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Yes, yeah, Yes, I feel like now it's very different, right?
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Because with my Dphil cohort and first of all, my department is doing an amazing job for us to get to know each other.
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So that very like supportive in a sense that we for example,
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I have coffee mornings every week and in those coffee mornings they kind of sponsor
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us that we have like some snacks and coffee and then the details just meet and
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talk and everyone can like express their thoughts and like their current problems
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and what they're enjoying doing and what their plans are and stuff like that.
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So it's kind of a support group which is really nice.
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And also after I finished my Masters and I started doing the research job here, I actually got to know more people from the college.
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And then I, I just love the college community.
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Like, yeah, students are lovely, staff is lovely people.
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Like I feel it's a very welcoming and accepting community as well.
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So I feel like I can be myself, which is great.
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That's very nice. And I know you live off site as well, right?
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So it's great that you still feel that sense of community and collegiality even though you're living elsewhere.
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Yeah, that's true. I'm still living with the people that I left for for my first year.
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Really In the. Yes. Ten person house. Exactly. So not all of them.
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Not all of that. Some of them finished right.
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The Masters students left and some were like, I don't know, like they basically did their own thing quite a lot, but they like the core people.
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One of them unfortunately graduated. What means? Unfortunately, he graduated.
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I'm very proud of him. Yeah, exactly. But the rest of us are still around and we're living together still so great.
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And what's your kind of what's your routine with what's and like, how often do you come in?
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What do you do when you come here. Mhm. What's your college life like.
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Okay. That's actually a good question. I mean it really depends.
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I feel like it has gotten even more intense now,
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but I feel like I'm often getting in in the mornings that I sometimes go to the gym, sometimes a lot of the day.
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And I work often in the cafe which is lovely,
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drink some nice cappuccino with milk and do some work so you give yourself some treatment doing during working time.
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And yeah, I often go to the at the common room as well.
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I don't actually go to the library that often. And then after that I have like a lot of like other stuff going on.
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So I'm going to some dancing society staff or I'm singing in a choir.
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But sometimes I play with the music society here.
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So we did some gigs or like for example, now with the ball we played at the ball or I'm,
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I don't know, like I'm lately I'm in a lot of meetings actually with the college governance.
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Yeah. Which is also very interesting to see to like see.
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All those things that you experience as a student come into play and how they're planned.
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Well, let's talk through that a little bit because. I think that's something that comes up a lot, right?
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Like, I think people naturally have feelings and opinions about what goes on in their college
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environment and don't necessarily know that they can get involved and have a say in that.
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That's true. So what was your. So you mentioned Freddie.
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Told you about the catering position, and then you've also got involved in general meeting.
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Yes. So what was your experience about?
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So first of all, I mean, I had my first general meeting yesterday, actually, and it was very, very interesting.
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I'm not sure if I got your question correctly. Do you want to know, like how I got into that more or do I think like how you got into it?
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But also what sparked your feeling that you wanted to get into it?
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I think for me it's always like when I see something which I would like to improve or like where I have an idea of what you could do.
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I'm always like, I can't complain without at least trying to change it.
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So I think that was driving me to do this. And that's the same attitude that seems to have got you involved in food systems as well.
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Yeah, exactly. It's always the same. It's always like I'm feeling responsible for doing something.
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And I mean, knowing Freddie helped a lot, right? Because I knew someone who was already doing this and who knew who to speak to.
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And I mean, generally those positions get advertised through the college.
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So it's not something where you have to know someone,
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but it's more like he made me aware of that because we get letters from the college which are telling you,
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okay, those are the events happening, those are the positions here.
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We need some student representative here, We need some help here. You can have your say, maybe a survey or something.
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But often because you get so many emails, they just get lost somewhere and you don't read them thoughtfully, as you should.
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So I feel like it helped me quite a lot to just see that the opportunities are there.
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And then I just yeah, I just applied basically.
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So. And what is it that you want to impact or change within the college?
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So there are several things which I think I would like to act on.
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So one of the things is like, as you mentioned, I'm not living on college side and I've never lived on college side.
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And I feel sometimes there's quite a divide between students who live in college and students who don't live in college.
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So, for example, I've got some people in my cohort who are actually Wharton students but who never come in.
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I can never see them. And one of the reasons because they're never coming in is because they just don't live in college.
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And this is an effort for them to come in because it's quite far north.
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I mean, at quotation marks, it's like, yeah, exactly.
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The thing is like it's not that far out, but in Oxford, in the grand scheme of things, you can cycle across it in 15 minutes.
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Sorry, I'm cycling in from the other end of the city in 25 minutes in the morning.
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It's okay. And I'm a very slow cyclist. A cyclist?
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No know, but I feel like. Like you have a reason to come here or you need a reason to come here.
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And sometimes it's also like just practical things. Like for example,
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we're now trying to advertise that there are lockers available for students so
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that people who don't come in every day have the opportunity to lock some stuff.
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And if you're like, for example, playing tennis and you want your racket to be stored in college because you
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don't want to take your racket home every single time you want to play tennis,
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it makes some sense to just store it in college and keep it here or have a spare set of clothes.
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If the rain is starting again and you get soaked on you on your cycle here, which happens to me quite often.
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So things like this that you like have a more in the know that like them both students communities you've got like people
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living inside and people living outside like growing together more and that there's more exchange between those two worlds.
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So that's something that I would like to achieve. I think the second thing what I'm really passionate about is food.
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I'm trying to you're working quite closely with Michael, who's our head chef.
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Exactly. And I would like to improve on sustainability and vegan and vegetarian food.
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Not so much the taste.
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I think we just run a survey and I mean, I can talk about the results so too much now because they're not officially released yet,
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but I feel like people in general weren't too, like too unhappy about the food.
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So it seems like in general people are quite happy about it.
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But there are still some things that you could do to like, improve to take up on vegan and vegetarian food,
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especially since the college has a sustainability strategy and they want to be like or they want to reach net zero this like this year.
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So I feel like having a yeah, going alongside with a well thought through food and catering related strategy would actually be just natural.
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And I mean, it's hard because you don't want to force anyone to eat vegan, vegan or vegetarian.
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I think it's more like actually increasing the visibility and like trying to.
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Like raise awareness. What are the consequences if you eat meat and dairy products?
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Maybe I should mention that I'm vegan myself, just that there's like no confusion about that.
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But so yeah, we're talking about maybe also one of the questions, for example, in the survey was,
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is it okay for students of members of the college in general to have, for example, a meat free day each week,
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just that you have like one day a week where you just have more vegetarian vegan options but no meat,
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and maybe that makes you discover your new favourite dish, which is kind of lonely with spinach and halloumi cheese, whatever.
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Like, I don't know if this actually goes well together.
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But the thing is, like, Ed, maybe, maybe you would like, find something else that you like which does not have meat but is still tasty.
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So yeah, it's about that. I'm trying to push for like more sustainability in that respect.
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So outside of college life then, and thinking about your current academic career and where you might want to go next and also in your personal life,
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what are you dreaming of right now? What I'm dreaming of in like academic terms?
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I mean, finishing this dphil this is a dream.
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The big finish date year at least. I do know like, I mean, you start out by saying three years, but then nearly everyone I know is doing four.
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You know, I'm not sure I should go for I don't know.
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But at some point in time I would like to finish it not too far ahead.
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And as for the longer run, I'm actually quite unsure.
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Currently, I would like to am torn between two things.
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I really like academia, but then I'm also like, where can I have the biggest impact?
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And I might actually like to go somewhere where I can have like more direct policy impact.
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So I don't know, being in a in a big organisation like the FAO or the UN or the W.H.O. or something like that,
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where you can actually like work on real life problems and not just the academic side would be nice,
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or being an academic advisor for something like that would be something that I would be interested in because I feel like,
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yeah, I would like to apply my research in a way that is useful in a practical way.
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Yeah, that would be nice. And where is there anywhere specific in the world that you see yourself doing that?
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That's a good question because I'm not a person who's going on fieldwork,
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which is very sad, and models and models are not necessarily needing you to go elsewhere.
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And there are a lot of people in my world who are like going to all different kind of places from South Africa to Indonesia to Australia, everywhere.
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I don't know. I think it's more a question of where the opportunity opens up and what the specific circumstances are,
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because currently I wouldn't be like I think I would be happy everywhere with like, I don't know.
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So I think it really depends on how long I would stay there and what the like situation would be in general.
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Because I think one thing that I realised living abroad is that one thing, the only thing basically for me,
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which makes me a lot sad, is that you're not seeing your family and friends home that often.
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And I'm very like, I'm a big family person, so I really love my sister, I really love my parents, my grandparents, like my cousins.
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It's it's really nice to have them around me and it's so sad that I see them now much less frequently than I used to.
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And living abroad, especially if it's overseas in the sense that you're going to the US or to Asia or Africa,
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that you actually have long distances to travel.
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The pandemic kind of also showed me that it's sometimes it can really be not just a six or seven hour flight,
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it can be in like, yeah, a real border in a sense, if you can't transport.
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And I mean, I'm so lucky because I've got a German passport I can get into most countries in this world rather easily.
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But I have friends who are from very different countries and for them,
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just going to Europe is now a hassle because their visa is telling them you can go to
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the UK and the UK only and I feel this is something that you shouldn't just ignore.
384
00:38:51,300 --> 00:38:57,480
So I would be open to go everywhere, but I would really need to have a think about it before I go.
385
00:38:57,480 --> 00:39:01,580
Yeah. No, I agree I. I think that's very important. You've got to think about where you're.
386
00:39:01,760 --> 00:39:09,320
Where you feel most grounded, I think. Yes. Yeah. Well, here's to seeing more family and close friends in the future, then.
387
00:39:09,590 --> 00:39:13,520
Yeah. Let's see. Maybe I can convince them to come here. Yeah, I think so.
388
00:39:13,730 --> 00:39:17,030
Well, thank you so much for coming on the podcast. Yeah, it's great to have you.
389
00:39:17,060 --> 00:39:18,500
Hope I didn't talk too much.
