EP 01 // Simon Webster // Thornbridge Brewery

WEBVTT
00:00:16.649 --> 00:00:22.629
I'd like to thank everyone for, for tuning into episode one of the Path Makers Podcast.
00:00:22.629 --> 00:00:25.940
first thing we need to do is welcome our guest today, Mr.
00:00:25.940 --> 00:00:28.859
Simon Webster, co-founder of Thornbridge Brewery.
00:00:29.129 --> 00:00:30.390
Thanks so much for being here today.
00:00:30.699 --> 00:00:31.739
Yeah, pleasure.
00:00:31.739 --> 00:00:39.060
And, because it's episode one, I'm gonna start off with a bit of an intro into, into Path Makers because it's not really a typical Podcast.
00:00:39.460 --> 00:00:44.850
the idea with this is, is, is really, it's broken down in a couple things.
00:00:44.850 --> 00:00:46.560
For one, it's more of like a mini series.
00:00:46.560 --> 00:00:49.929
There's gonna be six episodes, this is episode one.
00:00:49.929 --> 00:00:52.920
Once those six episodes are done, the theme is kind of tackled.
00:00:53.323 --> 00:00:55.295
We go back to what we do for work.
00:00:56.314 --> 00:00:56.674
Yeah.
00:00:56.704 --> 00:00:58.634
the, the second thing is that theme.
00:00:58.634 --> 00:01:07.484
So what the theme is for, for these six episodes is, is speaking to the path makers, the folks that have had a, significant role in shaping modern beer in the UK today.
00:01:08.474 --> 00:01:16.515
and then the last thing's around format, most Podcasts, will generally go through the journey of the guests and talk through the story.
00:01:16.694 --> 00:01:16.754
Yeah.
00:01:16.844 --> 00:01:18.745
I know you're familiar, you've done a few yourself.
00:01:19.224 --> 00:01:28.484
that's not what we're gonna do here today, for one, because the six guests are folks that are very well known, not just within beer space, but within, you know, challenger drinks brands.
00:01:28.844 --> 00:01:33.465
So a lot of people that are listening or viewing the Podcast will already know your story to a degree.
00:01:34.105 --> 00:01:34.284
Yeah.
00:01:34.284 --> 00:01:36.239
so what we're really interested in is not so much what you did.
00:01:36.775 --> 00:01:41.204
But the why and how of, of, of it, of why you did it, and how you did it.
00:01:41.814 --> 00:01:43.015
Why is that important?
00:01:43.344 --> 00:01:46.305
So let's go back to the mid, late nineties.
00:01:46.814 --> 00:01:50.545
you know, beer was not the most interesting place in the world, right?
00:01:50.545 --> 00:01:51.745
It doesn't mean there wasn't good beer.
00:01:51.745 --> 00:01:52.075
No, absolutely.
00:01:52.075 --> 00:01:54.125
But there wasn't much, diversity.
00:01:55.094 --> 00:02:00.584
within beer styles, number of breweries, that kind of thing, as well as the fact that the volumes were going down.
00:02:00.584 --> 00:02:03.135
It was, you know, not the most attractive industry.
00:02:03.135 --> 00:02:14.504
And what happened was there was a spark and there was people that came in and started creating, new paths, new paths for the product, but also new paths for consumers to come in and experience that and have fun with the category.
00:02:14.594 --> 00:02:31.799
And that led to this unprecedented boom of the last 15 to 20 years, which, If you think of how old of a category beer is, it probably has never experienced something as, as, fast moving in terms of growth, in terms of, you know, differentiation as the last 15 to 20 years.
00:02:32.379 --> 00:02:35.219
and that was because of, of that path making.
00:02:35.490 --> 00:02:39.780
So as we sit here today, and obviously all the headlines will obviously lead you to, to believe that's all doom and gloom.
00:02:39.840 --> 00:02:39.899
Yeah.
00:02:40.229 --> 00:02:50.379
we'll get to that later, but, You know, one of the things that we need to keep in mind is, you know, we, we, we own our own destiny and we're just one spark, we're one path away from, from, from changing the narrative around beer.
00:02:50.379 --> 00:02:55.209
And what better way to do that than to sit down with the folks that did it over the last 20 years.
00:02:55.808 --> 00:02:59.169
So speaking of 20 years, that's like, that's Thornbridge, isn't it?
00:02:59.169 --> 00:02:59.379
Right?
00:02:59.379 --> 00:02:59.439
Yeah.
00:02:59.468 --> 00:03:00.278
Flown by, hasn't it?
00:03:00.278 --> 00:03:00.579
Yeah.
00:03:01.088 --> 00:03:03.495
Who knew so much would happen.
00:03:03.914 --> 00:03:04.115
Yeah.
00:03:04.115 --> 00:03:04.574
No kidding.
00:03:04.965 --> 00:03:09.819
so before we, last thing before we get into it is because we're not gonna focus on your story.
00:03:10.514 --> 00:03:16.275
There might be some people who are listening or, or watching that don't know the story, as well as they would like to.
00:03:16.574 --> 00:03:21.224
So what I did is obviously in preparing for this, I went through a lot of Podcasts, articles, what you will.
00:03:21.224 --> 00:03:22.664
I came up with a few suggestions.
00:03:22.664 --> 00:03:24.074
If you have any to add to this, go nuts.
00:03:24.495 --> 00:03:29.215
There's a craft beer channel, YouTube, the origins of Thornbridge and Jaipur.
00:03:29.234 --> 00:03:34.514
I know there's a more recent one on the, on the Burton Union, but but there's that one which is about a 15 minute episode.
00:03:35.414 --> 00:03:38.775
There's the Hop Forward Podcast, which is a much more in-depth, longer episode.
00:03:38.835 --> 00:03:44.115
And then there's a, a great article, 15 years of Endless Summer, how Thornbridge Jaipur Changed British Beer.
00:03:44.115 --> 00:03:45.074
And that's by Johnny Garrett.
00:03:45.074 --> 00:03:45.585
That was on...
00:03:45.585 --> 00:03:46.064
A good piece.
00:03:46.094 --> 00:03:46.155
Yeah.
00:03:46.155 --> 00:03:46.935
Good beer hunting, right?
00:03:46.935 --> 00:03:47.294
Yeah.
00:03:47.294 --> 00:03:47.925
Is there anything else?
00:03:48.104 --> 00:03:49.094
No, I think that's pretty good.
00:03:49.094 --> 00:03:52.514
If, if you read up whole listen up on that, you have a pretty good idea of the story.
00:03:52.514 --> 00:03:52.844
Yeah.
00:03:53.504 --> 00:03:53.775
Cool.
00:03:53.775 --> 00:03:55.185
So you go check those out.
00:03:55.185 --> 00:03:55.694
They are great.
00:03:56.555 --> 00:04:00.215
But, but yeah, with that in mind, let's, let's kick off today.
00:04:00.425 --> 00:04:00.634
Great.
00:04:00.875 --> 00:04:07.025
And of course we're gonna start with, with one that, is often talked about, which is, it was just Jaipur, right?
00:04:07.115 --> 00:04:07.354
Yeah.
00:04:07.925 --> 00:04:16.920
But before we actually talk about Jaipur itself, what I'd like to do is, is ask if you could take us back to like, That moment in time, like scene setting.
00:04:17.009 --> 00:04:17.370
Right.
00:04:17.370 --> 00:04:19.350
So take us back to 2005.
00:04:19.529 --> 00:04:24.629
Don't worry about Jaipur yet, but like what is going on at Thornbridge 2005?
00:04:24.629 --> 00:04:25.290
What does it look like?
00:04:25.620 --> 00:04:31.720
Yeah, I mean, back 2005 we were working at the old brewery just, within, within, the hall grounds.
00:04:32.759 --> 00:04:43.319
And at that stage, Jim and I, at the start of the year, we just employed two, two young growers, neither of whom had commercially brewed beer before.
00:04:43.610 --> 00:04:49.139
one guy, Stephano Cossi was, based in Italy and flew over for the interview.
00:04:49.139 --> 00:04:56.298
He was a, a real, nerd for yeast and, and generally sort of beer, but had only brewed at university.
00:04:56.709 --> 00:05:00.798
and the other was a graduate from Heriot- Watt Martin Dickey.
00:05:01.918 --> 00:05:14.550
these two guys came together in January, February of that sort of year, and we were at that stage fooling around a little bit, but also because Dave Wickett had been one of the, guys to set the brewery up with us.
00:05:14.689 --> 00:05:20.714
He was at Kelham Island, Kelham Island Brewery at that stage, and we were doing some of the other beers for him sort of thing.
00:05:20.714 --> 00:05:26.975
So they were brewing lots of Pale Rider and Easy Rider, and we'd do some of the seasonals and effectively we were grazing our knees on somebody else's beer.
00:05:27.915 --> 00:05:32.295
and, and, and getting a feel for, for what worked, what didn't work, and, and playing around with the hops.
00:05:33.334 --> 00:05:42.560
and, and that was really, that was sort of a pivotal time then where Within the industry at that stage, you know, most brewers were using three or four varieties of hops.
00:05:43.250 --> 00:05:52.500
Martin and Stefano were young, ambitious, probably chef like, and there were a lot more ingredients in the cupboard than three or four hops.
00:05:52.500 --> 00:05:55.860
And, and we went for it and, and, and we tried different things.
00:05:55.889 --> 00:05:58.439
They were influenced massive by the American scene, obviously.
00:05:58.439 --> 00:05:58.529
Okay.
00:05:58.740 --> 00:05:59.430
Who wouldn't be?
00:06:00.629 --> 00:06:09.110
so, you know, the pivotal moment of brewing a, an IPA was, was very American inspired rather than UK inspired.
00:06:09.949 --> 00:06:13.504
And how much, what was your brew length at the time?
00:06:14.125 --> 00:06:16.055
we'd be doing 30 to 40 casks of beer.
00:06:16.055 --> 00:06:16.504
That was it.
00:06:16.774 --> 00:06:17.285
On each brew?
00:06:17.285 --> 00:06:17.345
Yeah.
00:06:17.345 --> 00:06:18.185
On each brew, yeah.
00:06:18.245 --> 00:06:22.324
And so they're going about, obviously they're brewing some of the beer from Kelham Island.
00:06:22.435 --> 00:06:22.584
Yep.
00:06:22.584 --> 00:06:22.805
Right.
00:06:23.415 --> 00:06:26.524
and then in the meantime, you're brewing your own beers.
00:06:26.584 --> 00:06:26.764
Yeah.
00:06:26.764 --> 00:06:28.564
Starting first one was Lord Marples, wasn't it?
00:06:28.564 --> 00:06:29.584
First one was Lord Marples.
00:06:30.084 --> 00:06:30.295
Yeah.
00:06:30.295 --> 00:06:33.485
and so was there like a direction to them?
00:06:33.485 --> 00:06:33.720
Was there like.
00:06:34.394 --> 00:06:37.064
This is Thornbridge, this is what we want to be.
00:06:37.134 --> 00:06:40.995
Or, you know, what, what, what guidance was given to them at that time?
00:06:40.995 --> 00:06:49.394
You know, we, I, I, I speak to Martin, still, you know, we, we often say we almost had this sort of, we pinched it from Nike, but it was a bit of just do it.
00:06:49.754 --> 00:06:50.625
Let's, let's just do it.
00:06:50.625 --> 00:06:51.524
Let's just try it.
00:06:51.644 --> 00:06:54.920
You know, we, we had, we had brews go down the drain.
00:06:55.040 --> 00:06:55.279
Yeah.
00:06:55.639 --> 00:07:03.560
And not everything worked, but, but we were pretty, the guys were pretty good at, at what they did and they were inspired, as I said, by other sort of styles out there.
00:07:04.129 --> 00:07:16.718
And by the time early summer had come round, the thirst was for a, for a big IPA and you know, 5.9% beers did not exist in the uk especially on Cask.
00:07:17.389 --> 00:07:17.658
Yeah.
00:07:17.788 --> 00:07:23.384
so, you know, I often say going back now, if it was 20 years ago now, that'd be a keg beer.
00:07:23.384 --> 00:07:23.699
Yeah.
00:07:23.699 --> 00:07:36.509
You know, we wouldn't have even touched as a cask beer because there were too many sort of, barriers to that style of beer in cask, but somehow we did, and somehow it succeeded beyond anything any of us had ever hope for.
00:07:37.314 --> 00:07:41.519
And so I guess the, you know, have, as you say, go, just do it.
00:07:41.610 --> 00:07:41.939
Yeah.
00:07:42.314 --> 00:07:43.785
That beer needed to sell.
00:07:43.875 --> 00:07:44.144
Yep.
00:07:44.295 --> 00:07:44.475
Yeah.
00:07:44.475 --> 00:07:46.245
So is it just like, go for it.
00:07:46.245 --> 00:07:46.935
We just gotta sell.
00:07:46.935 --> 00:07:48.824
But you're not, you're not talking about loads of cask here.
00:07:48.824 --> 00:07:50.805
So part of it was having control on the size.
00:07:50.865 --> 00:07:51.074
Yeah.
00:07:51.074 --> 00:07:52.865
I mean, he felt a lot of cask to us.
00:07:52.865 --> 00:07:53.163
Sure.
00:07:53.204 --> 00:08:00.345
and you know, again, we're in such a different market 20 years on that, you know, we were able to probably sell to rural pubs.
00:08:00.524 --> 00:08:00.584
Okay.
00:08:01.685 --> 00:08:04.714
You know, it seems odd, but nobody really bought an ABV back then.
00:08:04.714 --> 00:08:05.464
They bought beer.
00:08:05.468 --> 00:08:05.709
Okay?
00:08:05.714 --> 00:08:07.923
'cause most beer was 3.8 to 4.2.
00:08:08.495 --> 00:08:14.764
So, you know, we, it wasn't particularly a conversation, it was more, I got this, IPA modern, IPA sort of thing.
00:08:14.793 --> 00:08:18.134
People took it, the balance was there in that beer.
00:08:19.834 --> 00:08:23.918
that meant that you didn't necessarily think you were drinking a boozy drink.
00:08:24.709 --> 00:08:28.139
and it caught a lot of people out.
00:08:28.288 --> 00:08:38.634
I'll be honest, you know, there were tales of people being Jaipour'd or being Jaipourly, because they'd had four pints of, of beer, but four pints of Jaipur are very different, very different.
00:08:40.078 --> 00:08:44.458
The ability to kind of play with things and just do it.
00:08:44.458 --> 00:08:50.188
Like, was that made possible because you had the other part of the business, which was, uh.
00:08:50.595 --> 00:09:01.394
Brew the beer for Kelham Island and make revenue off that, or would you've done anyway, to be honest, we got a, I mean, we were relatively, it, it was a low cost business in some ways in that we were in the grounds of Jim's house.
00:09:01.455 --> 00:09:01.725
Yeah.
00:09:02.445 --> 00:09:09.705
you know, we were benefiting from, the duty system back then, which had, which had not long been in.
00:09:09.804 --> 00:09:13.889
and we were still able to sell everything we brewed.
00:09:13.889 --> 00:09:15.059
We just didn't brew that much.
00:09:15.090 --> 00:09:17.490
So we were, we were nursing the business undoubtedly.
00:09:17.490 --> 00:09:18.568
And, and you, and you're right.
00:09:18.600 --> 00:09:22.110
You know, having something else to do as well helped pay the bills.
00:09:22.139 --> 00:09:22.529
Sure.
00:09:22.529 --> 00:09:22.590
Uh.
00:09:23.684 --> 00:09:24.075
Got it.
00:09:24.075 --> 00:09:29.049
And, and when you first brewed that, that, 'cause that was Brew three, was it, or third Beer?
00:09:29.049 --> 00:09:30.284
That was the third beer, yeah.
00:09:30.284 --> 00:09:30.294
Yeah.
00:09:30.345 --> 00:09:30.554
Okay.
00:09:31.004 --> 00:09:33.254
When you brewed that, was it like, yeah, we got it.
00:09:33.495 --> 00:09:43.154
Like, we know it was interesting'cause it really, it was, it was a bit of a moment actually because, Dave Wickett, Dave was a real pioneer of, of using American hops and beer and things like that.
00:09:43.154 --> 00:09:48.615
And when he first tasted the beer, we sat down on Jim's lawn with Martin and Steph, and he was like.
00:09:49.078 --> 00:09:49.649
That's it.
00:09:49.889 --> 00:09:51.934
You, that's, that's, it was just the aha moment there.
00:09:51.934 --> 00:09:52.054
Yeah.
00:09:52.054 --> 00:09:55.139
He was, you know, a man from Del Monte moment, you know, he said yes.
00:09:55.649 --> 00:09:57.419
You know, he really, he really was.
00:09:57.419 --> 00:09:58.289
He stood out.
00:09:58.938 --> 00:10:05.879
and, you know, 20 years on, I still think it stands out as a, as a, an incredible cask bear.
00:10:06.539 --> 00:10:10.384
And I often say, even though to start with.
00:10:11.054 --> 00:10:19.424
People followed us into that space, but I'm not sure there are many blonde, nearly 6% Cask beer styles out there now.
00:10:19.424 --> 00:10:19.485
Yeah.
00:10:20.585 --> 00:10:29.715
they, they've certainly, plenty of keg beers, but Jaipur still stands there, 20 years in thinking, you know as, as sort of king of that space.
00:10:30.764 --> 00:10:31.455
And so.
00:10:32.279 --> 00:10:35.610
What we, I've heard a few times about, okay, the third beer, all this stuff.
00:10:35.818 --> 00:10:38.610
One question I haven't heard, what was the fourth beer you made?
00:10:39.448 --> 00:10:39.929
Do you remember?
00:10:40.110 --> 00:10:44.009
Well, the fourth beer, was it Jaipur again or did, was it something else?
00:10:44.009 --> 00:10:45.054
Oh, yeah, yeah, it was, yeah.
00:10:45.179 --> 00:10:51.980
So, so again, you know, we were brewing, little marples and a, and a pale ale called Black Thorn and, and Jaipur.
00:10:52.000 --> 00:10:53.179
So there were the three.
00:10:53.779 --> 00:10:57.769
It was an interesting, thing then because it very quickly got picked up.
00:10:57.769 --> 00:10:59.719
It started, it won awards immediately okay.
00:10:59.719 --> 00:11:03.828
You know, it was, it was a real, a real eye opener for people.
00:11:03.828 --> 00:11:11.448
And, and again, Pete Brown often says, you know, he was drinking in black and white, and then Jaipur just dialled him into a, he was seeing colour all of a sudden.
00:11:11.448 --> 00:11:15.644
And then there was a real, interesting in how the beer was like that.
00:11:15.644 --> 00:11:18.225
And, but, but people were saying it's too strong.
00:11:18.345 --> 00:11:22.534
So then, you know, after we, after they, they'd realise how strong, it's too strong, it's too strong.
00:11:23.274 --> 00:11:25.424
you need to do one, about 4%.
00:11:25.784 --> 00:11:35.534
And I think later that year we actually sort of kicked against that a little bit and we did a beer called Halcyon, which was 7.7% on cask.
00:11:35.563 --> 00:11:37.715
Again, making life very, very difficult for us.
00:11:38.205 --> 00:11:38.475
Yeah.
00:11:38.945 --> 00:11:40.875
so, so lots of beers came.
00:11:41.029 --> 00:11:47.559
And they were all utilising, some of the American hops that we were sort of using for the first time, some of the New Zealand hops.
00:11:48.078 --> 00:11:51.589
and then certainly by the end of that year we were also brew a beer called St.
00:11:51.589 --> 00:11:55.039
Petersburg, which is 7.7% Imperial Stout.
00:11:55.219 --> 00:11:58.669
And at that stage we were being written about extreme beers.
00:11:58.759 --> 00:12:07.159
This is where the country, 20 years ago, we were really challenging, with the strength of beers at 7.7, 5.9, or the seven sevens.
00:12:08.100 --> 00:12:09.000
There was no Brewdog.
00:12:09.419 --> 00:12:09.750
Yeah.
00:12:09.840 --> 00:12:10.235
There was nothing.
00:12:10.409 --> 00:12:15.240
You know, we were, we were the, the standouts in this sea of 4% cask beer.
00:12:15.240 --> 00:12:15.330
Right.
00:12:15.360 --> 00:12:19.110
Some, some good beers, you know, and, and we weren't the first people to use American hops.
00:12:19.110 --> 00:12:19.590
Of course not.
00:12:20.159 --> 00:12:27.539
But we were using 'em in a way that a lot of the, a lot of the UK brewers were restrained almost in some of the styles they could do.
00:12:27.539 --> 00:12:31.200
They were weighed down by their heritage, and we just didn't have any heritage.
00:12:31.289 --> 00:12:32.970
So we, we were very, you know, we were.
00:12:33.539 --> 00:12:36.419
We were doing what the Americans had done 10, 15 years before.
00:12:36.509 --> 00:12:37.318
20 years before.
00:12:37.318 --> 00:12:37.458
Yeah.
00:12:37.458 --> 00:12:42.389
You know, and, but in a format that was very traditional with cask beer.
00:12:43.289 --> 00:12:57.480
What's interesting now is like, I was thinking about that, and I think if you look at breweries that start off now, one of the differences, there's obviously plenty of differences, but one of the differences is like, there is this thing called craft beer now.
00:12:57.539 --> 00:13:00.688
Does there's, you know, before there was, there was, there was other things that existed.
00:13:00.688 --> 00:13:01.259
Don't get me wrong.
00:13:01.259 --> 00:13:02.698
But there, there's, there's, and it's almost like.
00:13:03.404 --> 00:13:06.495
When you start off this idea of just do it, just go for it.
00:13:06.554 --> 00:13:14.669
Like there's a risk to that because if you do something that doesn't fit the mould of craft beer within that, you know, hardcore.
00:13:14.769 --> 00:13:14.990
Yep.
00:13:15.705 --> 00:13:18.284
Very much initial stage audience within beer.
00:13:18.284 --> 00:13:21.705
If you do something that sits outside that you're kind of out of, you're, you're out of that already.
00:13:22.414 --> 00:13:25.514
and then there's this question of who you for?
00:13:25.544 --> 00:13:26.235
Who are you for?
00:13:26.264 --> 00:13:26.384
Yeah.
00:13:26.414 --> 00:13:26.715
Right.
00:13:26.715 --> 00:13:31.004
Which, which I guess hurts the ability to be diverse and just, just do it.
00:13:31.004 --> 00:13:33.375
And so you have a lot of people that come out and go, I'm gonna be a hazy brewery.
00:13:34.095 --> 00:13:40.184
And, you know, they, they experiment with hazy beers, for instance, but, but they, they stay within that.
00:13:40.184 --> 00:13:40.455
Right.
00:13:40.455 --> 00:13:40.870
And yeah.
00:13:41.054 --> 00:13:43.605
And, and just, I was having to think about that as like.
00:13:44.024 --> 00:13:49.304
If we're trying to do different things, like how does that, you, you experienced that firsthand.
00:13:49.304 --> 00:13:50.144
You saw what it was like Yeah.
00:13:50.144 --> 00:13:52.514
When you didn't have that mould or you broke that mould.
00:13:52.754 --> 00:13:56.323
So for people that are in that mould today, what, what would you say to them?
00:13:56.323 --> 00:13:57.914
What do you think about that concept?
00:13:58.214 --> 00:14:04.904
I mean, yeah, it's an interesting one because there is, it is a little bit like that now, but, but again and again, if you think back to us.
00:14:06.004 --> 00:14:14.884
We, we've always, we, we were straddling something there that we didn't know existed because we're brewing a, a bitter at 4% load marples and a 5.9% IPA.
00:14:15.125 --> 00:14:15.184
Yeah.
00:14:15.184 --> 00:14:18.695
Arguably, arguably now two different audiences.
00:14:18.815 --> 00:14:19.804
But back then it was the same.
00:14:19.804 --> 00:14:21.304
We were trying to sell it to the same people.
00:14:21.394 --> 00:14:21.575
Yeah.
00:14:21.764 --> 00:14:27.485
and, you know, there wasn't, traditional and modern, there was just beer drinkers.
00:14:27.514 --> 00:14:33.825
So, so what we were tending to do is, we, we were, we were trying to excite.
00:14:34.529 --> 00:14:37.919
a beer drinker by saying, you need to see these stories.
00:14:37.919 --> 00:14:38.759
We know about beer.
00:14:38.789 --> 00:14:45.629
They're all these different style available that you're not seeing, and we're we're creating them or recreating them from, from, from other styles of beer.
00:14:45.870 --> 00:14:50.220
So I think we were really driving the appetite of the drinker there.
00:14:50.460 --> 00:14:55.409
We, we, we were, we were leading, they were following, you know, whereas I think a lot of it now, I, I think.
00:14:55.980 --> 00:15:03.960
20 years in, I think the drinkers become so well educated, you know, with the plethora of beers around the world, reading about and drinking them.
00:15:04.919 --> 00:15:12.330
That actually the brewers are probably reacting to the consumer now as opposed to the consumer reacting to the brewers, which was happening 20 years ago.
00:15:12.360 --> 00:15:12.568
Yeah.
00:15:13.809 --> 00:15:16.318
so again, we, we do straddle this thing.
00:15:16.318 --> 00:15:26.340
You know, we, it's difficult to pigeonhole us, you know, we, because we do make lots and lots of cask beer, you know, but we do do big strong barrel aged stouts.
00:15:26.340 --> 00:15:26.399
Yeah.
00:15:26.700 --> 00:15:27.659
You know, we do, we do.
00:15:28.049 --> 00:15:30.210
We tend to do the full range of beers.
00:15:30.210 --> 00:15:31.139
We sell a lot of lager.
00:15:31.745 --> 00:15:34.474
You know, we do, we do tend to do and we pride ourselves on it.
00:15:34.504 --> 00:15:41.224
That is, one of the things we say, you know, when somebody's, you know, if you don't like Thornbridge beers, you probably 'cause you've not found the right one yet.
00:15:41.254 --> 00:15:44.044
You know, because we do, it's, we do a lot of different beer.
00:15:44.044 --> 00:15:45.544
Yeah, I think so.
00:15:45.544 --> 00:15:45.953
Yeah.
00:15:46.203 --> 00:15:49.174
so circling back a little bit to Jaipur here for a second.
00:15:49.174 --> 00:15:51.604
The, the, the success of Jaipur.
00:15:51.604 --> 00:15:53.914
Jaipur is about what, 40% of your volume?
00:15:53.914 --> 00:15:54.154
Yeah.
00:15:54.154 --> 00:15:54.604
Rising.
00:15:54.904 --> 00:15:55.504
Rising, okay.
00:15:55.894 --> 00:16:03.344
So the success of Jaipur, can you put that down more to the Creation, or how you raised it?
00:16:04.544 --> 00:16:07.524
I put it down to serendipity.
00:16:07.524 --> 00:16:07.615
Okay.
00:16:07.615 --> 00:16:18.104
and, and I think we helped that along the way, but it certainly came at a time and, you know, I've been quote before, I have no idea if we started the craft wave or just caught it.
00:16:18.164 --> 00:16:18.914
I don't, I dunno.
00:16:19.034 --> 00:16:20.354
Well, nobody can ever tell.
00:16:20.443 --> 00:16:20.744
Yeah.
00:16:20.774 --> 00:16:24.014
But, but certainly Jaipur came around at a time.
00:16:24.568 --> 00:16:28.649
And seemed really to be in the right place at the right time, and we were able to push it.
00:16:28.649 --> 00:16:36.989
And one of the reasons we were able to push it was we told stories and telling stories, I think sells, sells beer.
00:16:37.198 --> 00:16:42.539
Because again, you know even the, even though we were talking about an American iteration with classic American.
00:16:43.139 --> 00:16:55.589
Sorry, a classic English beer style we were able to tell the story of of of of the IPA and also at that same sort of time, you'd also got the real storytellers, whether be Pete Brown or Adrian Tierney-Jones, also getting articles into things so.
00:16:56.474 --> 00:16:57.674
It really was a movement.
00:16:57.855 --> 00:16:59.323
It was a new wave of beers.
00:16:59.414 --> 00:16:59.625
Yeah.
00:16:59.924 --> 00:17:02.544
And we had people writing about it.
00:17:02.894 --> 00:17:07.015
So it felt very, it felt very current.
00:17:07.034 --> 00:17:08.203
It felt very modern.
00:17:08.263 --> 00:17:10.375
It felt very much of a movement.
00:17:11.105 --> 00:17:12.904
and, you know, we were.
00:17:14.084 --> 00:17:16.213
It felt a little bit rock and roll, if I'm honest.
00:17:16.304 --> 00:17:24.404
You know, we, we were having the guy who take, who was shooting the Arctic monkeys the day before, and then she'd take pictures of the brewers and the next day So, the brewers became rock Stars. Sure.
00:17:24.794 --> 00:17:26.503
Because people didn't know brewers.
00:17:26.594 --> 00:17:36.304
They were, they're just people who worked in the background and generally we tended to push them sort of to the front and, and, and they were young and it sort of worked.
00:17:36.523 --> 00:17:37.044
Interesting.
00:17:37.824 --> 00:17:39.119
The beer was good as well.
00:17:40.589 --> 00:17:40.648
Yeah.
00:17:40.648 --> 00:17:45.869
So it, it goes back to what you were saying before, though, like the, this idea that nowadays you have a very educated consumer.
00:17:45.869 --> 00:17:50.878
Back then, I guess that was the platform you were able to educate consumers.
00:17:50.878 --> 00:17:50.939
Yeah.
00:17:50.939 --> 00:17:55.559
So, I don't know, I guess, you know, I don't know if anyone has the answer to this right now.
00:17:55.559 --> 00:17:56.219
That's the whole point.
00:17:56.219 --> 00:17:59.009
But like now we have a lot of educated consumers.
00:17:59.009 --> 00:18:00.809
What's, what's, what do they need?
00:18:00.809 --> 00:18:02.204
What's the next thing that consumers need?
00:18:03.105 --> 00:18:13.575
I think that'll be the hard part because again, you know, we saw it in Scandinavia when we sell our beerp into, into Scandinavia, you, you get the early adopters, but then we'll quickly move what's next?
00:18:13.605 --> 00:18:14.835
What's next, what's next?
00:18:15.555 --> 00:18:18.464
And beer can't continue to do that.
00:18:18.555 --> 00:18:22.664
I think the interesting part now is probably.
00:18:23.950 --> 00:18:24.670
Consistency.
00:18:24.700 --> 00:18:29.710
That sounds really boring, but consistency and quality should be the real drivers of this sector now.
00:18:29.769 --> 00:18:30.039
Okay.
00:18:30.069 --> 00:18:35.648
Because I think over the 20 years, some people have done it fantastically well, some people have fell by, by the wayside.
00:18:35.940 --> 00:18:53.009
I think to have a scene as vibrant now, but also with the, quality and consistency that I do see, or I did see back in America in the days, you know, there were still, there were real challenging beer stock, but they were, but technically very good beers as well.
00:18:53.369 --> 00:18:58.409
And I don't think we quite had that to start with, but I think hopefully that will be something that we see more and more.
00:18:58.559 --> 00:19:09.750
'cause we we're drinking the best beer ever, you know, in this country consumers have never had a choice and The quality of, of beer, in, the existence of beer.
00:19:09.930 --> 00:19:11.160
I definitely agree.
00:19:11.349 --> 00:19:11.970
Making me thirsty.
00:19:12.009 --> 00:19:12.119
Yeah.
00:19:12.119 --> 00:19:12.240
cool.
00:19:12.240 --> 00:19:19.799
And then Jaipur obviously then, you know, became a force within, within the brewery.
00:19:19.799 --> 00:19:19.859
Yeah.
00:19:19.859 --> 00:19:39.105
And so one thing that is very interesting is, you know, I think everyone, not everyone, obviously every breweries, sets out to do different things, but I think any there's a lot of breweries, especially ones that want to either, You know, nowadays efficiency does matter, Costs are higher, but also scale, like having one brand that, that is your kind of hero beer.
00:19:39.105 --> 00:19:39.434
Yeah.
00:19:40.095 --> 00:19:42.855
Is, is, is critical but also very difficult to do.
00:19:42.855 --> 00:19:49.305
Like what along the journey, what are some of the things that you did with Jaipur?
00:19:49.694 --> 00:19:52.664
Whether that's protecting it or whether it's promoting it, but like.
00:19:53.204 --> 00:19:58.964
That allowed it to not just be this thing that was a moment in time, but something that today is iconic.
00:19:58.994 --> 00:19:59.174
Yeah.
00:19:59.174 --> 00:20:00.105
Like how, how did that happen?
00:20:00.464 --> 00:20:02.414
I think that's 'cause we stuck to our word in it.
00:20:02.974 --> 00:20:05.714
and we've never compromised on it.
00:20:06.404 --> 00:20:10.513
It's still 5.9%, still the same amount of hops that we put in back in the day.
00:20:11.054 --> 00:20:14.023
There are other beers that came around afterwards.
00:20:14.729 --> 00:20:18.719
Very similar, but generally have been what I call dumbed down.
00:20:18.959 --> 00:20:19.259
Okay.
00:20:19.319 --> 00:20:20.849
And are falling away now.
00:20:21.559 --> 00:20:25.619
and I think what we did with Jaipur was we, we stayed true to our word.
00:20:26.394 --> 00:20:29.829
We, we didn't get some people taking it 'cause they said it was too strong.
00:20:30.489 --> 00:20:32.939
and we'd always have another beer for those sort of people to today.
00:20:32.939 --> 00:20:39.089
But, you know, generally we wanted that beer to be a 5.9 IPA still brewed in the same style that we did it 20 years ago.
00:20:40.559 --> 00:20:52.049
One of the things that often doesn't get talked about very much, but, in order to do that, I mean, I think it's an amazing point because, it's something that when you say it just seems so bloody obvious.
00:20:52.140 --> 00:20:52.319
Yeah.
00:20:52.349 --> 00:20:57.450
But at the same time, in, in reality it's very hard to do because there's always those pulls.
00:20:57.450 --> 00:20:59.640
Sometimes it's internal, like the sales team is like, yeah, absolutely.
00:20:59.670 --> 00:21:00.839
Hey, if we did this, we can.
00:21:00.839 --> 00:21:00.900
Yeah.
00:21:00.904 --> 00:21:01.015
Yeah.
00:21:01.559 --> 00:21:04.689
But one of the things is that you've had control over the business.
00:21:04.689 --> 00:21:05.029
Yes.
00:21:05.259 --> 00:21:05.398
Right?
00:21:05.398 --> 00:21:05.569
Yeah.
00:21:05.569 --> 00:21:15.644
And so your your your point about, you know, not making sacrifices, ultimately that decision, you're accountable to that you, Jim and whoever Yeah.
00:21:15.674 --> 00:21:17.324
You know, are accountable to that decision.
00:21:17.324 --> 00:21:22.244
Not everyone with growth has kept themselves in that position, and that's Absolutely, yeah.
00:21:22.724 --> 00:21:24.614
Those are the factors that are pulling, so, isn't they?
00:21:24.824 --> 00:21:31.648
Yeah, but one of them will always be, it's a little bit, Of a how quickly you want to get there, isn't it?
00:21:32.039 --> 00:21:36.990
And taking 20 years to get where we are was would've been much too slow for, for some people.
00:21:37.019 --> 00:21:37.349
Sure.
00:21:37.500 --> 00:21:40.529
You know, and that's, again, that goes back to what we're talking about today.
00:21:40.529 --> 00:21:41.730
That's the path, isn't it?
00:21:41.819 --> 00:21:41.940
Yeah.
00:21:42.000 --> 00:21:53.730
You know, and that's, our path's taken us 20 years to get to where we are, where where we sit very comfortably with a great stable of, of beers, some fantastic people working in the business and enjoying coming to work every day.
00:21:54.000 --> 00:21:55.409
Could we have done that in 10 years?
00:21:55.919 --> 00:21:56.490
Probably.
00:21:57.109 --> 00:21:58.099
Would it have been enjoyable?
00:21:58.128 --> 00:21:58.970
Probably not.
00:21:59.628 --> 00:22:00.559
Would we still be here now?
00:22:00.589 --> 00:22:01.349
Possibly not.
00:22:01.619 --> 00:22:02.490
Yeah.
00:22:02.490 --> 00:22:02.619
Yeah.
00:22:02.869 --> 00:22:05.929
so I think it's just, it suited Jim and I Okay.
00:22:05.929 --> 00:22:07.680
I think it suited us in that respect.
00:22:08.440 --> 00:22:12.259
we didn't have external investors who were, who were pushing us.
00:22:12.259 --> 00:22:14.089
We need, we need growth, we need go growth.
00:22:14.210 --> 00:22:20.119
We've always had growth, and, and generally double digit growth, but it's not been triple digit growth or it's not been, you know.
00:22:21.059 --> 00:22:22.170
A forced growth.
00:22:22.170 --> 00:22:25.289
I think we've been quite a organic business.
00:22:25.619 --> 00:22:34.920
and you know, generally the sales have gone like that over, over the years, and that's been driven by us and, and, and the capacity we've got.
00:22:35.910 --> 00:22:39.878
so, and so to kind of wrap this, this up, it's super interesting.
00:22:39.930 --> 00:22:40.319
Thank you.
00:22:40.628 --> 00:22:49.035
the, the, the what you, just, what you mentioned there, so Thornbridge, 20 years ago, maybe, let's say 15 years ago.
00:22:49.035 --> 00:22:49.275
Yeah.
00:22:50.444 --> 00:22:52.994
What you envisaged then, is it more or less where you're at now?
00:22:53.234 --> 00:22:54.015
I think so, yeah.
00:22:54.015 --> 00:22:54.025
Yeah.
00:22:54.224 --> 00:22:58.003
But again, if you say where are we gonna be in 10 years time?
00:22:58.003 --> 00:22:58.694
I dunno actually.
00:22:58.694 --> 00:22:58.964
Sure.
00:22:59.140 --> 00:23:13.575
And, and again, you know, in 2010, I. Would we, would we have seen the, the scene that exists now, which is, which since COVID has had a bit of a slapping from the big boys who have, who have reasserted themselves mm-hmm.
00:23:13.815 --> 00:23:24.644
In them, and certainly in grocery, but it's certainly, and, and, and in bars have shown what money, money buys, listings, and, you know, it's, so what will happen the next five or 10 years?
00:23:24.644 --> 00:23:27.434
I'm not too sure, as I alluded to.
00:23:27.434 --> 00:23:29.414
We are, we're pretty happy where we are.
00:23:30.224 --> 00:23:30.763
So, yeah.
00:23:30.763 --> 00:23:34.305
In, you know, 10, 15 years ago, if, if it'd have said, we're here.
00:23:34.454 --> 00:23:34.875
Yeah.
00:23:35.085 --> 00:23:35.924
We've be pretty happy.
00:23:35.924 --> 00:23:37.273
Yeah, I think that's good.
00:23:37.273 --> 00:23:48.164
I mean, like, one of the things that, with what I do now, advisory stuff, the things that, one of the things that I always start with is, is like the destination.
00:23:48.164 --> 00:23:50.023
Because people are like, oh, you know, we wanna do this.
00:23:50.023 --> 00:23:51.464
Like, we, what do you think about this?
00:23:51.585 --> 00:23:53.115
It's like, what do you wanna achieve?
00:23:53.115 --> 00:23:56.115
Like success doesn't, there's no, there's no definition to success.
00:23:56.115 --> 00:23:58.615
Success is what you define it, right?
00:23:58.615 --> 00:23:58.784
Yeah.
00:23:59.294 --> 00:24:03.279
And so, so it doesn't mean you have to know where you want to be in 20 years.
00:24:03.579 --> 00:24:03.638
No.
00:24:03.670 --> 00:24:06.128
But at the same time, you gotta know where you're gonna point the boat.
00:24:06.279 --> 00:24:07.210
Yes, absolutely.
00:24:07.210 --> 00:24:08.138
I completely agree on that.
00:24:08.170 --> 00:24:12.490
When people talk about what's your exit, I don't, I, I often think we don't have to have an exit.
00:24:12.490 --> 00:24:12.789
Yeah.
00:24:13.210 --> 00:24:19.549
You know, and you know, we've, we've, we've had conversations over the years with the number of people about, about things.
00:24:19.569 --> 00:24:24.160
But, you know, it's almost, if you haven't got an exit, it's like, well, well what are you doing?
00:24:24.474 --> 00:24:25.464
And we're building a business.
00:24:25.470 --> 00:24:25.490
Yeah.
00:24:25.523 --> 00:24:26.724
And we're only 20 years into it.
00:24:26.724 --> 00:24:28.534
And there's a lot of brewers, a lot older than us.
00:24:29.564 --> 00:24:32.394
so I think it's, it's an interesting, we're building a culture.
00:24:32.394 --> 00:24:35.095
We're building a business, and we're just on the journey.
00:24:35.934 --> 00:24:36.285
Awesome.
00:24:36.525 --> 00:24:36.815
Love it.
00:24:37.095 --> 00:24:40.994
I can't wait to drink Thornbridge beers 20 years from now.
00:24:41.244 --> 00:24:42.164
you mentioned grocery there.
00:24:42.164 --> 00:24:50.074
I wanted to, I wanted to touch on that because I think, grocery something that I think is very misunderstood within, within beer.
00:24:50.503 --> 00:24:53.684
but you guys have obviously had a very interesting journey in grocery as well.
00:24:54.044 --> 00:24:55.664
So maybe let's start there.
00:24:55.664 --> 00:25:02.529
Can you kind of give the, the, the, the summary, like what is, what has been your grocery journey from start to to, yeah.
00:25:03.944 --> 00:25:20.910
Our grocery journey started with Waitrose, when we bought a a bottling line, back in, 2010. and we, and we brewed, and we bottled Jaipur, Kipling, a couple of others, St.
00:25:20.910 --> 00:25:23.009
Petersburg, and we sold 'em to Waitrose.
00:25:23.130 --> 00:25:27.299
And generally we tell, said to every other grocer, oh, we've got an exclusive agreement with Waitrose.
00:25:27.359 --> 00:25:31.319
Even though we didn't have an exclusive agreement with Waitrose, it just meant that actually that was our line.
00:25:31.410 --> 00:25:32.759
That's all we can produce down there.
00:25:32.759 --> 00:25:36.990
So, so we had a great partnership with Waitrose for, for maybe three or four years.
00:25:37.240 --> 00:25:41.549
and then in 2015, we bought a bigger bottling line.
00:25:42.599 --> 00:25:46.409
And that bottling line was very expensive, which meant we need to sell a lot more bottled beer.
00:25:46.619 --> 00:25:48.449
So we, we opened that conversation up.
00:25:48.509 --> 00:25:57.539
Then, with, with everyone else, we effectively got listings with all of the, grocers, and carried on that.
00:25:57.628 --> 00:26:03.949
And in 2020 we put a, canning line in of the same spec.
00:26:03.949 --> 00:26:06.179
and then when COVID hit.
00:26:06.654 --> 00:26:09.294
We were Yeah, going incredibly busy.
00:26:09.503 --> 00:26:10.194
I know, I know how that felt.
00:26:10.359 --> 00:26:10.759
Yeah, exactly.
00:26:10.884 --> 00:26:11.154
Yeah.
00:26:11.154 --> 00:26:17.334
So, you know, in that respect, grocery saved us. Leading into COVID We were a 50 / 50 split, on and off.
00:26:17.334 --> 00:26:22.464
and we were 25% keg, 25% cask, 25% bottle, 25% can.
00:26:22.464 --> 00:26:23.753
What a nice place to be.
00:26:23.875 --> 00:26:24.054
Yeah.
00:26:24.294 --> 00:26:32.190
No, no, no customer over 9% of, of sales during, during COVID, that changed, changed for everyone.
00:26:33.450 --> 00:26:36.779
And we had, we had growth bizarrely twice.
00:26:36.779 --> 00:26:45.700
We expanded it, did little expansions, and and at one stage we had a customer who were about 35% of our a total, which was slightly uneasy for us.
00:26:45.730 --> 00:26:45.920
Yeah.
00:26:46.460 --> 00:27:05.759
and then generally as, as, as, as the bars opened up and pubs opened up, we have always seen ourselves as a, as a, as, as a, as a pub drink, you know, the, the grocers helped along with that, we then had to drop out some of the grocery to get beer available, 'cause we're at full capacity to get beer available for, for the on trade again.
00:27:05.759 --> 00:27:11.789
So that, that was a couple of years of teaming and labelling, which we didn't always get right.
00:27:13.509 --> 00:27:15.839
and where we sit now, we're probably.
00:27:17.279 --> 00:27:19.410
75, 25 on to off.
00:27:19.410 --> 00:27:19.440
Okay.
00:27:19.440 --> 00:27:20.849
Which feels about right.
00:27:21.440 --> 00:27:21.819
for us.
00:27:21.819 --> 00:27:30.390
We're sort of listed with, all the grocers, bar one, and you know, we've got, we have some good volumes in there.
00:27:30.390 --> 00:27:33.410
We have some good relationships in there, and that feels about right.
00:27:33.839 --> 00:27:34.980
do we want any more growth?
00:27:35.250 --> 00:27:36.119
Probably not.
00:27:37.079 --> 00:27:40.710
We have a, like anybody in, in grocery, you have a churn of products.
00:27:40.950 --> 00:27:47.634
So some come for 12 months replaced by another one You know, and that sort of thing, which is, which is quite interesting for the consumer.
00:27:47.875 --> 00:27:48.144
Yeah.
00:27:49.494 --> 00:27:57.814
I think one of the things that I find super interesting is, is I might, I might not get the wording on this completely right, but, but you did have a bit of a pullback from grocery.
00:27:58.064 --> 00:27:58.354
Yeah.
00:27:58.574 --> 00:28:04.013
as, or as you say, kind of let's say migrate into, into where, where you really wanted that volume for the strategy of the business.
00:28:04.013 --> 00:28:04.105
Yeah.
00:28:05.025 --> 00:28:08.045
obviously COVID played a role in that.
00:28:08.064 --> 00:28:18.044
but it's a big thing because, you know, I, I. I can't think of many examples of breweries that have pulled volume out of grocery and back into other channels.
00:28:18.074 --> 00:28:18.434
I don't know.
00:28:18.615 --> 00:28:20.054
I don't know if you No, probably not.
00:28:20.085 --> 00:28:20.204
No.
00:28:20.773 --> 00:28:22.394
And, and I think, you know, grocery too.
00:28:22.424 --> 00:28:23.503
Are we on the right path again?
00:28:23.503 --> 00:28:23.924
Who knows?
00:28:24.253 --> 00:28:30.044
Well, no, but, but, but I, I, I admire it quite frankly, because I think, you know, grocery's a bit of a spiral, right?
00:28:30.044 --> 00:28:30.054
Mm-hmm.
00:28:30.734 --> 00:28:41.849
And I think what you said is, is really interesting because you're talking about channels and products like, strategically, like we want to be this, we want like you're talking about what you want to be and you're, and you're Yeah.
00:28:41.878 --> 00:28:45.269
Controlling how the volume then represents that.
00:28:45.269 --> 00:28:45.329
Yeah.
00:28:45.628 --> 00:28:47.849
The thing with grocery is, there's a couple things that happen.
00:28:47.849 --> 00:28:54.210
One is often times people have like a gap, like, oh, we need to fill 5,000 hectares in the brew, Let's just go get some grocery volume.
00:28:54.210 --> 00:28:54.420
Sure.
00:28:54.628 --> 00:28:56.940
But then once you get into grocery, it's a cycle, right?
00:28:56.940 --> 00:28:57.144
Yeah, absolutely.
00:28:57.148 --> 00:28:58.464
Then you buy new tanks.
00:28:57.148 --> 00:29:06.914
and then I remember, Without naming names, but I remember at one point, we had bought some new tanks and we had a grocery buyer be like, got you guys.
00:29:06.914 --> 00:29:09.164
Like, basically like, well, how are you gonna pay for those tanks?
00:29:09.170 --> 00:29:09.430
You know?
00:29:09.525 --> 00:29:11.265
And they, you know, they pushed us hard on price.
00:29:11.265 --> 00:29:11.414
Yeah.
00:29:11.775 --> 00:29:17.444
So there is this spiral that, that comes with it, because if you get too big in grocery, grocers know that you can't pull away from it.
00:29:17.444 --> 00:29:17.509
No, absolutely.
00:29:17.515 --> 00:29:20.234
Because you can't sustain the size of your brewery and the investment you've made.
00:29:21.045 --> 00:29:26.924
But you've done that in, in a, in a, in a controlled way where you said, this is, you know, we manage our growth, this is what we wanna be.
00:29:26.954 --> 00:29:35.384
And, and as as that volume becomes available in the places that you, you, you prefer the balance of the business to be, you start migrating that volume, right?
00:29:35.384 --> 00:29:35.535
Yeah.
00:29:35.565 --> 00:29:39.755
So again, it's control, I dunno It is, I've kind of spoken there, but does that represent, I think you're right.
00:29:39.755 --> 00:29:51.349
I think that represents exactly the path, but, and also I think it's difficult to get it right and I wouldn't say we got it right because you, it's not like for, like you, you lose that listing in there, you don't replace it with a, a pub group there.
00:29:51.349 --> 00:29:52.430
It's, it's not like that.
00:29:52.430 --> 00:29:58.819
So, so for 18 months, we sort of, we probably struggled a little bit to sort of fill up where we were dropping out.
00:29:58.819 --> 00:30:08.509
And, but, you know, one of, one of the things with grocery is it's, it's, it's, it's glossy, flashy, it's great to see your cans, or bottles on the shelf, isn't it?
00:30:08.509 --> 00:30:09.710
When we, when we go shopping sort of thing.
00:30:09.710 --> 00:30:09.769
Da.
00:30:10.430 --> 00:30:10.940
There we are.
00:30:10.970 --> 00:30:11.630
It's fantastic.
00:30:11.630 --> 00:30:12.710
Very, very visible.
00:30:13.039 --> 00:30:17.809
You know, when that lorry comes and takes away 15 pallets of Jaipur cans, it's like, wow, that looks really good.
00:30:17.809 --> 00:30:19.430
Doesn't this sort of thing, you know, when they line up.
00:30:19.609 --> 00:30:24.380
So there is a, there is a it draw, it draws you in grocery, it really draws you in.
00:30:24.880 --> 00:30:32.869
but ultimately I think the idea, I think it tends to be lower margin.
00:30:32.900 --> 00:30:51.884
I think people accept that. It's, it's, it's, it's more simple sort of stuff, but fundamentally, We had to get to a situation where we had too much in grocery, so we had to stop playing certain games with, with grocers who, who you are, right, Once you're on the hook.
00:30:52.244 --> 00:30:52.545
Yeah.
00:30:53.115 --> 00:30:54.585
You know, it's tough.
00:30:54.585 --> 00:30:54.605
It's tough.
00:30:54.605 --> 00:31:02.559
It's tough because you know, they're delivering big numbers for you, but actually you're almost thinking, I don't wanna play that game anymore.
00:31:02.559 --> 00:31:02.619
Yeah.
00:31:02.619 --> 00:31:06.730
And when you start saying no to things, it tends to start dropping out.
00:31:07.029 --> 00:31:12.670
You know, we're still approached by grocers now saying, if you just reduce your prices a bit more, we know we can push this even further.
00:31:12.670 --> 00:31:14.075
And we're like, we don't really wanna push any further.
00:31:14.545 --> 00:31:14.835
What a position to be in.
00:31:15.880 --> 00:31:16.170
Yeah.
00:31:16.170 --> 00:31:16.180
Yeah.
00:31:16.180 --> 00:31:16.295
Yeah.
00:31:16.295 --> 00:31:16.805
That's the thing.
00:31:16.805 --> 00:31:22.595
No, we we're fortunate there and, you know, but, and, but others will take that space.
00:31:22.595 --> 00:31:22.654
Yeah.
00:31:22.654 --> 00:31:25.355
These, as you say, there's, there's a clamour.
00:31:25.565 --> 00:31:25.805
Yeah.
00:31:25.805 --> 00:31:30.275
To, to, and, and those shelves, those, those facings have come really down as well, haven't they?
00:31:30.275 --> 00:31:38.704
You know, going back to, you know, maybe seven or eight years ago when, when, when Tesco discovered craft beer Yeah.
00:31:38.710 --> 00:31:42.964
And, and gave big aisles to it and took out the slabs, that shrunk.
00:31:43.335 --> 00:31:44.625
That's undoubtedly shrunk.
00:31:44.865 --> 00:31:45.704
The slabs are back.
00:31:45.765 --> 00:31:46.035
Yeah.
00:31:46.035 --> 00:31:56.744
And I think, I think, the thing, you know, that you see with grocery too, is, is that, you talked about margin, like, on single cans, margin it's not that bad.
00:31:56.775 --> 00:31:57.555
No, it depends.
00:31:57.585 --> 00:31:59.654
But like once you get into four packs, yeah.
00:31:59.654 --> 00:32:02.535
I mean, there's no craft brewery that do well on margin In four packs, right?
00:32:02.535 --> 00:32:02.595
No.
00:32:02.865 --> 00:32:08.265
And that's one thing that I don't think a lot of people in the, the industry, so, okay, you get this grocery volume, you're doing well on single cans.
00:32:08.265 --> 00:32:08.894
What's the reward?
00:32:08.894 --> 00:32:10.005
The reward is to go into four pack.
00:32:10.005 --> 00:32:10.875
That's the reward, right?
00:32:10.875 --> 00:32:11.414
Yeah, exactly.
00:32:11.444 --> 00:32:12.944
But okay, we can do this in four pack.
00:32:12.944 --> 00:32:15.134
It's like, but what, what are you really gonna make on that right?
00:32:15.140 --> 00:32:15.299
Yeah.
00:32:15.305 --> 00:32:15.345
Yeah.
00:32:15.375 --> 00:32:16.875
So what, why are you doing it?
00:32:16.875 --> 00:32:19.045
Like, it's not, I, I'm not anti it.
00:32:19.085 --> 00:32:24.674
I think it's, it's, it's about having the strategy for it as opposed to using that.
00:32:24.734 --> 00:32:24.794
Yeah.
00:32:24.794 --> 00:32:30.864
As, as you say, it's like, it can be very, overwhelming.
00:32:30.864 --> 00:32:30.954
Yeah.
00:32:30.974 --> 00:32:34.694
Because you see, you're like, all this volume, we could get all this revenue, we could fill the brewery, we could do all this stuff.
00:32:34.699 --> 00:32:34.809
Yeah.
00:32:34.809 --> 00:32:35.730
But, but, but, but, right.
00:32:35.730 --> 00:32:36.009
Yeah.
00:32:36.013 --> 00:32:36.314
Yeah.
00:32:36.314 --> 00:32:36.855
Absolutely.
00:32:36.914 --> 00:32:39.824
And then it grows so big that to stop it, like, Ooh.
00:32:40.064 --> 00:32:40.244
Yeah.
00:32:40.244 --> 00:32:41.204
And then you're on the rollercoaster.
00:32:42.074 --> 00:32:42.345
Yeah.
00:32:42.615 --> 00:32:46.994
But we, we had, we had products four packs in grocers where.
00:32:47.505 --> 00:32:51.585
When a certain deal was triggered, we were like, they're making no money on this.
00:32:51.585 --> 00:32:51.914
Yeah.
00:32:52.410 --> 00:32:52.859
Yeah, that's a loss leader.
00:32:52.859 --> 00:32:56.549
You know, and then all of a sudden you are in the crossfire, you are a commodity at that stage.
00:32:56.549 --> 00:32:56.730
Yeah.
00:32:56.819 --> 00:33:01.710
You know, so, you know, your four packs that price, but if you buy two, four packs, it's only that.
00:33:01.740 --> 00:33:03.240
And they're like, and we're not funding that.
00:33:03.299 --> 00:33:03.809
Yeah.
00:33:03.869 --> 00:33:05.759
So, I don't know.
00:33:05.869 --> 00:33:07.440
It's, it's an interesting one.
00:33:07.440 --> 00:33:08.759
So far, so good with us.
00:33:08.759 --> 00:33:10.440
We're really happy with the grocers we've got now.
00:33:10.440 --> 00:33:11.740
We have a great relationship with them.
00:33:12.644 --> 00:33:22.565
they're really receptive to, to new stuff and asking us about stuff, and we're, we're gonna roll an interesting concept out with, with, with Morrisons later this year.
00:33:23.134 --> 00:33:23.305
Nice.
00:33:23.325 --> 00:33:28.244
so yeah, so we, we still enjoy that fun, but, you know, we've only got so much beer for it.
00:33:28.424 --> 00:33:28.724
Sure.
00:33:28.875 --> 00:33:29.744
That's, that's the thing.
00:33:30.914 --> 00:33:31.513
And then.
00:33:32.128 --> 00:33:34.140
I wanted to talk about the rebrand.
00:33:34.579 --> 00:33:40.159
I'm, I'm a, I love the, it's still one of my favourite rebrands ever in the history of craft beer.
00:33:40.919 --> 00:33:42.909
because this was 2018.
00:33:42.930 --> 00:33:45.089
Yeah, 2018 With thirst, was it Thirst?
00:33:45.095 --> 00:33:45.174
Thirst Craft.
00:33:45.174 --> 00:33:45.690
Thirst, yeah.
00:33:45.690 --> 00:33:46.410
They were great guys.
00:33:46.410 --> 00:33:46.710
Yeah.
00:33:46.829 --> 00:33:47.099
Yeah.
00:33:47.099 --> 00:33:56.670
who, who I, I I also rate highly, they, I mean, I, I'll just start bluntly like, what was the brief.
00:33:57.869 --> 00:34:09.179
It was always a difficult one because we'd, we'd, we'd been very, so when we changed it originally we had the hall on, on, on, on pub clips & on on bottles.
00:34:09.480 --> 00:34:17.969
When we moved away from the hall 2010, I decided to take something from the hall and that was the statue flora.
00:34:18.028 --> 00:34:25.889
So Flora had, had, had, had done the sort of thing all the way through, and then when it came to the, to, to the rebrand, it was like how now?
00:34:26.309 --> 00:34:29.579
Because it was part when, when the, when, you know, we, we going into can as well.
00:34:29.579 --> 00:34:42.568
How now do we bring in a new brand, but stand out and going round grocers and, and everywhere we were looking at shelves and there was so much noise.
00:34:42.945 --> 00:34:47.295
So much noise, some beautiful cans, but how did you stand out on that?
00:34:47.355 --> 00:34:57.554
And we actually took the inspiration, from not particularly our contemporaries, but more from say, Estrella or Pilsner Urquell.
00:34:57.905 --> 00:35:02.025
And we were blocking colors and we were trying to own colors sort of stuff along the way, sort of thing.
00:35:02.025 --> 00:35:03.375
So a simplicity to it.
00:35:03.914 --> 00:35:05.715
And then the guys from Tirst.
00:35:07.994 --> 00:35:10.934
Had a, we had quite a few goes at this, as you can well imagine.
00:35:11.025 --> 00:35:14.934
It wasn't first hit when wasn't a no.
00:35:14.934 --> 00:35:24.193
we were, and, and, and the day they came up with the hand drawn, brocade, which came from the fireplace in Jim's house, it just went bang.
00:35:24.403 --> 00:35:24.943
That's it.
00:35:25.275 --> 00:35:37.275
And then it was a case of choosing the colourways and almost coming out with, What we wanted to be, modern classics that actually, you know, Jaipur always, Jaipur was always around orange and pink until that time.
00:35:37.724 --> 00:35:39.585
And then we always spoke about it as orange and pink.
00:35:39.585 --> 00:35:40.514
Jaipur is a pink city.
00:35:40.514 --> 00:35:42.074
That was the reason behind it sort of thing.
00:35:42.105 --> 00:35:43.994
And pink's really fallen away with Jaipur.
00:35:44.655 --> 00:35:46.664
And we were looking and we said, it's actually orange.
00:35:46.905 --> 00:35:52.545
Everything, all our POS everything else is, is orange, so really we just wanted to own that orange then.
00:35:52.855 --> 00:35:57.585
And hopefully we've, we've sort of done that with them sort of thing lately.
00:35:57.590 --> 00:35:57.780
Yeah.
00:35:58.514 --> 00:35:58.784
Yeah.
00:35:58.784 --> 00:36:07.463
I think the ability to, I mean, you just said the, the modern classic, which is, which is a really great, summary of, of what's in my head.
00:36:07.485 --> 00:36:18.809
but you know, I think one of the things is that, you know, often times when breweries rebrand, you, lose a little bit of the meaningfulness, the, the tradition of it.
00:36:18.815 --> 00:36:18.855
Yeah.
00:36:18.860 --> 00:36:21.960
And I think it was such a great example of Wow, it stands out.
00:36:21.989 --> 00:36:22.050
Yeah.
00:36:22.050 --> 00:36:23.610
Like the Jaipur can stands out.
00:36:24.860 --> 00:36:28.409
but at the same time it still felt very Thornbridge, right?
00:36:28.409 --> 00:36:28.559
Yeah.
00:36:28.559 --> 00:36:38.364
It was it, and, and, And I have to say, like, you know, you, you, Thornbridge has an incredible ability to manage this concept of modern classic, right?
00:36:38.364 --> 00:36:43.405
So the, the, the can is one thing, but like, you know, I was, I lived up near Leeds for Yep.
00:36:44.025 --> 00:36:48.445
the better part of three, four years and, you know, walk into like the Banker's Cat.
00:36:49.530 --> 00:36:52.019
It's like, it's old school, but it's not.
00:36:52.019 --> 00:36:52.260
Right.
00:36:52.264 --> 00:36:53.403
No, absolutely.
00:36:53.784 --> 00:36:53.855
Yeah.
00:36:53.855 --> 00:37:02.550
And then, you know, what is, I had some other examples here, but, you've got this, this balance, like you, you know, the, the bars, the collaborations as well.
00:37:02.550 --> 00:37:02.559
Yeah.
00:37:02.559 --> 00:37:02.664
Right?
00:37:02.820 --> 00:37:02.880
Yeah.
00:37:02.880 --> 00:37:06.778
So you, you do collaborations obviously with, with a lot of, uh, very modern breweries.
00:37:06.778 --> 00:37:10.920
But then you've done Timothy Taylor's, their first collaboration was with them, with Budvar.
00:37:10.920 --> 00:37:11.190
Right?
00:37:11.190 --> 00:37:11.969
You did that one.
00:37:12.179 --> 00:37:13.108
Was that Czech Mates?
00:37:13.108 --> 00:37:13.815
Is that was that one?
00:37:13.815 --> 00:37:13.824
Yeah.
00:37:14.099 --> 00:37:14.818
She's still going now.
00:37:14.818 --> 00:37:15.000
Yeah.
00:37:15.369 --> 00:37:22.889
And then, and then the other thing is, is this idea that, okay, like you were the first brewery to use Nelson Sauvin hops, right?
00:37:23.039 --> 00:37:27.659
But you're also the first and now only brewery in the world that has a Burton Union system.
00:37:27.750 --> 00:37:28.019
Right?
00:37:28.019 --> 00:37:32.670
Like there's such a contrast between tradition and modern or classic and modern.
00:37:32.670 --> 00:37:32.730
Yeah.
00:37:33.780 --> 00:37:36.900
How do you get that to work so well?
00:37:37.619 --> 00:38:01.289
I don't, well, I mean, our first sort of tagline 20 years ago was a contemporary take on traditional thinking, and I think we've probably had that at the back 'cause we didn't invent beer, Brewdog did, obviously! but we, we, we came around with modern beer and we wanted to try and put our little layer on it then, and, and bring some modernity to what we'd seen from elsewhere.
00:38:02.144 --> 00:38:04.929
So I think we've always had that at the forefront of what we do.
00:38:06.704 --> 00:38:07.335
And you are right.
00:38:07.394 --> 00:38:15.585
You know, a lot of the interesting stuff that we do is actually bringing back traditional things, some old beer styles, which are fantastic.
00:38:15.614 --> 00:38:21.585
You know, the one we did with, with at The Kernel sort of stuff, we just fantastic on the union system sort of thing.
00:38:21.585 --> 00:38:29.985
You know, doing an old Burton Ale and some of these are great beers and we're probably, making them better than they were back in the day.
00:38:30.525 --> 00:38:33.135
The use of technology we've got and that sort of thing, and, you know.
00:38:33.585 --> 00:38:36.255
Some of the, some of the beer style have been fantastic.
00:38:36.255 --> 00:38:42.403
And, you know, we're just up for an award for best, best new beer style of the year, with the Brewers Journal guys.
00:38:42.403 --> 00:38:44.565
And that's a strong dark Mild.
00:38:44.565 --> 00:38:44.835
Okay.
00:38:44.894 --> 00:38:54.315
You know, there's no, there's no sort of hop knocking around there sort of thing, you know, so, so I think the consumer now is on this journey.
00:38:54.914 --> 00:38:56.059
You know, they're, they're shaping it.
00:38:56.519 --> 00:39:02.983
We, we, we, and we're sort of just nodding back, everything was thrown away to start, it was all new, new, new, new, new.
00:39:03.193 --> 00:39:06.494
And, and generally a lot of stuff gets bypassed.
00:39:06.494 --> 00:39:10.153
So we, we, we are re re-looking at old styles of beer and that sort of thing.
00:39:10.153 --> 00:39:18.014
And, and with the union now we're able to, to put 'em on that system and, and make beer like would've probably made a hundred years ago.
00:39:18.344 --> 00:39:18.523
Yeah.
00:39:18.824 --> 00:39:30.284
Just the ability to kind of read the room, if you will, where it's like, you know, innovate, but then it's like, especially with this Burton Union thing, it's like, it's like just when you know and everyone's almost to a degree, there's like innovation everywhere.
00:39:30.284 --> 00:39:36.344
It's just like you just went the exact opposite and it's just interesting, it's innovation by by, by going backwards.
00:39:36.344 --> 00:39:36.795
Absolutely.
00:39:36.795 --> 00:39:37.034
Yeah.
00:39:37.094 --> 00:39:40.545
And it's like this ability to do that, that just always kind of keeps you relevant.
00:39:40.545 --> 00:39:41.179
Which is Which I find.
00:39:41.250 --> 00:39:41.539
Yeah.
00:39:41.539 --> 00:39:43.454
I think that's what won the SIBA Award on innovation.
00:39:43.454 --> 00:39:44.414
It was a union system.
00:39:44.445 --> 00:39:44.715
Okay.
00:39:45.494 --> 00:39:45.855
Funny though.
00:39:46.275 --> 00:39:46.545
Yeah.
00:39:46.610 --> 00:39:47.219
Fantastic.
00:39:47.925 --> 00:39:50.219
But again, I go back to it, Cask as well as example.
00:39:50.219 --> 00:39:50.230
Yeah.
00:39:50.230 --> 00:39:57.539
And we're telling stories though, and and telling stories, It helps sell beer because there's, so the stories around beer are fantastic.
00:39:57.539 --> 00:40:02.639
How the evolve of a style came about or the, the way they sort of brewed something in a different way.
00:40:03.929 --> 00:40:06.030
They're all really interesting stories.
00:40:06.030 --> 00:40:08.909
So if you can tell those stories along the way, you can actually premiumise it as well.
00:40:08.969 --> 00:40:09.269
Yeah.
00:40:09.539 --> 00:40:13.559
So you look at something like the union, you know, we see that as our, as our premium offer.
00:40:13.619 --> 00:40:13.920
Sure.
00:40:14.099 --> 00:40:17.489
And you know, this is, this is a, a system that was thrown away.
00:40:18.300 --> 00:40:22.469
by Carlsberg, you know, I wish we had more time for you to tell me the entire story of it.
00:40:22.559 --> 00:40:23.070
Absolutely.
00:40:23.130 --> 00:40:30.750
Like, one, one day or maybe after this we can, you can tell me the, because I was, I was thinking like, how did that, like how do you even Yeah.
00:40:30.778 --> 00:40:33.480
How do you even like find, like how do you find that that was an opportunity?
00:40:33.659 --> 00:40:34.980
Well, it was through Garrett Oliver.
00:40:35.039 --> 00:40:35.250
Yeah.
00:40:35.559 --> 00:40:36.199
A friendship.
00:40:36.199 --> 00:40:40.320
And, yeah, he was, he was told they were being made silent.
00:40:40.815 --> 00:40:41.264
Crazy.
00:40:42.855 --> 00:40:43.215
Excuse me.
00:40:43.219 --> 00:40:43.454
Right, right.
00:40:43.454 --> 00:40:44.414
People right place Right time.
00:40:44.414 --> 00:40:44.744
Absolutely.
00:40:44.744 --> 00:40:46.094
So serendipity.
00:40:46.094 --> 00:40:51.465
You know, we, we, we still don't have a beer named it, but we should. You've been talking a lot.
00:40:51.465 --> 00:40:55.114
I'm gonna do a bit of a pause in the action here, and do one thing.
00:40:55.114 --> 00:40:57.125
So have you, do you know about Sellar?
00:40:57.125 --> 00:40:57.695
Do you know Sellar?
00:40:57.755 --> 00:40:58.474
Yeah, we use Sellar.
00:40:58.695 --> 00:40:58.934
Okay.
00:40:58.965 --> 00:41:02.514
So, I, I, I particularly don't, get into the use of Sellar.
00:41:02.534 --> 00:41:02.625
Sure.
00:41:02.625 --> 00:41:03.434
But all our guys do.
00:41:03.824 --> 00:41:03.965
Okay.
00:41:03.965 --> 00:41:05.295
it's been a great platform for us.
00:41:05.309 --> 00:41:05.639
Cool.
00:41:05.639 --> 00:41:13.108
So Sellar are the, the supporters of, of, of the Podcast. They are the ones that have, really, you know, helped make this happen.
00:41:13.108 --> 00:41:13.168
Yeah.
00:41:13.440 --> 00:41:17.519
now I actually did, I worked with them as part of my business last year.
00:41:17.519 --> 00:41:17.579
Yeah.
00:41:17.579 --> 00:41:18.639
So I got to know them really well.
00:41:19.139 --> 00:41:20.309
the founders and, and the team.
00:41:20.369 --> 00:41:21.690
Rate them, rate them a lot.
00:41:22.199 --> 00:41:30.690
and, and one of the things is, it's funny 'cause when When I started this idea of path makers, and by all means, yeah, now's the time to drink some water.
00:41:31.230 --> 00:41:32.349
When I started, I was like.
00:41:32.960 --> 00:41:39.885
What, I, you know, the concept of sponsorship to me, I'm not someone who likes to like, I want the content to be fluid, right?
00:41:40.125 --> 00:41:40.215
Sure.
00:41:40.304 --> 00:41:45.585
And, and so I, I didn't like put out a, a, an ask to a bunch of businesses here.
00:41:45.644 --> 00:41:53.034
I literally, I went up to Julian, one of the founders at London Craft Beer, and I was like, I want you guys to, to sponsor this because, it's a great fit.
00:41:53.054 --> 00:41:54.824
You guys are, you guys are path makers to me.
00:41:54.824 --> 00:41:56.784
There's a lot of success still to prove for Sellar.
00:41:56.804 --> 00:41:58.775
But, I just love their way of thinking.
00:41:59.094 --> 00:42:08.835
they, They look and, you know, they're not from the beer industry, not the founders, some of the team is, and they look at systems and they try and, you know, figure out what's broken and try and fix it.
00:42:08.983 --> 00:42:12.289
I guess two a degree similar to, to, yeah.
00:42:12.289 --> 00:42:16.679
And, and so, so that's like the journey that, that they've been on.
00:42:16.829 --> 00:42:25.289
And, and one of the things that, that we're gonna do, which I really like, is instead of doing like promotional, like this is Sellar, you should know about them.
00:42:25.289 --> 00:42:28.349
what we're gonna do is actually just do a bonus episode with them.
00:42:28.778 --> 00:42:37.769
So I think that's, that's gonna come at some point I'll, I'll, I'll obviously, let the, the viewers, and listeners know when that's gonna come, but I highly suggest you tune in because it's kind of like raw and cut.
00:42:37.769 --> 00:42:37.829
Yeah.
00:42:37.829 --> 00:42:39.239
There's gonna be nothing scripted like this.
00:42:39.813 --> 00:42:43.403
Anyway, tune into that, and a big thanks to, to Sellar for helping make that happen.
00:42:44.005 --> 00:42:48.744
Now that you've had a little H2O ready to go, shift gears a little bit.
00:42:48.744 --> 00:42:51.235
I wanna ask some opinions from you.
00:42:51.625 --> 00:42:54.653
So, one question.
00:42:54.653 --> 00:42:57.085
This is, this has bothered me for some time.
00:42:57.085 --> 00:43:00.085
now of course, as you everyone can obviously tell, I'm not from the UK.
00:43:00.909 --> 00:43:02.423
I'm born and raised in Canada.
00:43:02.423 --> 00:43:12.748
I moved to the UK in 2016 and so I don't have a lot of the, the history, the growing up, especially around cask.
00:43:13.469 --> 00:43:18.179
So if you have a beer and, I'm talking not about reality, I'm talking about your opinion.
00:43:18.329 --> 00:43:29.244
If you have a beer that is put into keg and cask and someone is buying those things, in your opinion, should those be the same price, should one be more expensive than the other?
00:43:30.614 --> 00:43:32.594
Which, why, what, what's your thoughts?
00:43:32.625 --> 00:43:40.425
I mean, this is a, an an age old one and you know, we've, we've, this is come up in conversation with those can management many times over the years.
00:43:40.425 --> 00:43:45.215
So, so generally whenever we brought over some of our, customers from overseas.
00:43:46.065 --> 00:43:54.494
They'll generally go into, one of our pubs and see cask there, and then notice that some macro lager is, you know, a pound a pint more.
00:43:55.184 --> 00:43:58.574
And it's like, but this is, this is the, the beer of the UK.
00:43:58.605 --> 00:44:00.135
You know, this is artisanal.
00:44:00.804 --> 00:44:01.405
Craft beer.
00:44:01.405 --> 00:44:02.425
I'm like, yeah, know it's, yeah.
00:44:02.514 --> 00:44:05.784
But unfortunately it didn't start like that.
00:44:06.204 --> 00:44:23.394
So again, you know, you go back 20 years ago, you know, all, all the young kids talking about, you know, the, the natural wines and da da and then all the super premium stuff and, poor old cask beer which is a live product which is made with yeast, which only has a very short shelf life and it has to be handled really well.
00:44:23.664 --> 00:44:25.405
It's like, well, that, it's cheaper end.
00:44:25.764 --> 00:44:25.885
Yeah.
00:44:25.885 --> 00:44:26.795
And it's, hit's odd.
00:44:27.275 --> 00:44:28.054
it'll never change.
00:44:28.074 --> 00:44:29.664
Now you don't think it will?
00:44:29.724 --> 00:44:30.025
No.
00:44:30.025 --> 00:44:32.485
I I think it's, I think that gap's too big.
00:44:32.635 --> 00:44:32.664
Okay.
00:44:32.664 --> 00:44:42.764
And, and part of me, and I've said this before, part of me hopes it doesn't, because what I, what I would like to see is, is, affordability on the bar.
00:44:42.855 --> 00:44:45.403
And I think cask can offer that at times.
00:44:45.403 --> 00:44:59.474
I think it can be a, you know, we, we've seen in the last four or five years, bar prices, just rocket and especially on, on, on macro lagers where you know, you're paying£6.50 for a Yeah.
00:44:59.534 --> 00:45:02.954
Pint of badly brewed, terrible mock continental.
00:45:03.224 --> 00:45:03.855
Nothing point in that, right?
00:45:03.974 --> 00:45:04.275
Yeah.
00:45:04.664 --> 00:45:04.905
Yeah.
00:45:04.934 --> 00:45:18.210
So, so I think cask beer, you know, my son, his friends are now sort drinking age and they're, they're looking at cask beers 'cause it,'cause remember there's modernity to cask now, so it's not like 20 years ago.
00:45:18.210 --> 00:45:25.110
So you can be drinking good, fruity, pale ales, hop forward sort of beers, hazy beers sort of stuff as well.
00:45:25.318 --> 00:45:28.619
So, but there is an affordability on cask more than, than keg.
00:45:28.619 --> 00:45:29.610
And I quite like that.
00:45:29.639 --> 00:45:29.940
Okay.
00:45:29.940 --> 00:45:30.929
Because I think it allows.
00:45:32.054 --> 00:45:32.384
Beer.
00:45:32.594 --> 00:45:33.704
Beer is an every man product.
00:45:33.704 --> 00:45:37.094
It has to be, there has to be affordability to to, to beer.
00:45:37.514 --> 00:45:54.264
And I think, I think cask will always have that price differential. A differential I previously had a high opinion that it should be more, and now I'm coming round to the thinking that actually, I think, I think what Cask beer does it brings, it brings affordability to it, you know, a 3.5%.
00:45:54.764 --> 00:45:56.699
cask beer will be at a good price.
00:45:56.699 --> 00:46:02.608
You know, we're gonna a bar in, in, in London, in a couple of months, and we will have a sub £5 pint.
00:46:03.719 --> 00:46:10.349
You know, and we'll be opposite a, a particular bar where their cheapest beer is £6.99, and that's where an AF version crazy.
00:46:10.710 --> 00:46:17.039
because, you know, I just think well kept cask beer is a fantastic thing, but they it's a week beer.
00:46:17.144 --> 00:46:22.289
It it, it's born and raised in a week and it can be out fresh on the bar.
00:46:22.349 --> 00:46:22.650
Yeah.
00:46:22.798 --> 00:46:38.175
And there's a certain, newness and, affordability to that, that doesn't need to be super premium. Obviously Jaipur's gonna be that most expensive beer in our bar, and that's, but that's down to the, the amount of hops that are in there and, and the duty rates of course.
00:46:38.264 --> 00:46:44.945
It's just interesting 'cause when you go back to talking about, you know, the education of the consumer and craft and how that plays such a big role, like, again, I don't have.
00:46:45.164 --> 00:46:46.795
I'm, I'm, I'm naive.
00:46:46.795 --> 00:46:46.855
Yeah.
00:46:46.855 --> 00:46:49.750
But at the same time, sometimes being naive gives you Yeah, yeah.
00:46:49.750 --> 00:46:57.878
No, well, well, again, the thing with, with, with, with, with the premiumisation, premiumisation of craft beer obviously came from the states.
00:46:57.884 --> 00:46:58.568
Yeah, yeah.
00:46:58.599 --> 00:46:59.798
Cask beer doesn't exist.
00:46:59.829 --> 00:47:00.128
Yeah.
00:47:00.250 --> 00:47:00.429
Yeah.
00:47:00.460 --> 00:47:04.449
So it was always gonna be the, the big hot beat there's a mental construct here, isn't there?
00:47:04.454 --> 00:47:04.653
Yeah.
00:47:05.344 --> 00:47:14.315
What, what, what prompted the question is back in my, in my past, one of the bars that, that we had, I walked in one day and the same beer was on cask and on Keg and, it was cheaper on cask.
00:47:14.315 --> 00:47:17.735
And I was like, and I was, I was like, yeah, what is, why would we be doing that?
00:47:17.795 --> 00:47:19.355
Oh, because what you said.
00:47:19.355 --> 00:47:21.934
And I was just like, I just couldn't wrap my head around it.
00:47:21.934 --> 00:47:21.994
No.
00:47:21.994 --> 00:47:22.925
I'm like, you, you know, like.
00:47:23.219 --> 00:47:34.289
And to the point about storytelling and stuff, it's like, you know, of course there is this construct that you have to break that I don't have, but, but I get, but but there is an incredible amount of storytelling there.
00:47:34.289 --> 00:47:36.929
There is, like you just said it in a sentence about live product.
00:47:36.929 --> 00:47:37.530
It's in a week.
00:47:37.530 --> 00:47:38.280
It's like all this stuff.
00:47:38.340 --> 00:47:38.610
Yeah.
00:47:39.059 --> 00:47:46.748
And I think what we've tried to do in the tap room, is we have Green Mountain on Cask and on keg, and we've equalised the prices on that.
00:47:46.898 --> 00:47:47.068
Okay.
00:47:47.139 --> 00:47:54.418
with, with a, with the notion that actually if you want, a very hoppy New England style, IPA on cask, it's gonna cost you Yeah.
00:47:54.418 --> 00:48:02.755
The same as that sort of thing, but that's, it's an, a availability to a, to a malty, to a Lord Marples, which, you know, is, it comes in, far less.
00:48:02.943 --> 00:48:08.188
And then when you look at the duty implications to something like a, a wild swan at 3.4%, it can't be affordable.
00:48:08.668 --> 00:48:18.898
Yeah, so we, for so long and in so many places, it happens that you go into a bar and all the cask beer is virtually the same price, regardless of, of, of, of the ingredients in it.
00:48:18.898 --> 00:48:24.750
So I think an educational piece around beer again, and the storytelling, that one's that much because it uses that sort of thing.
00:48:24.750 --> 00:48:28.438
That and, and, and a ladder almost on the bar to build to journey there.
00:48:28.469 --> 00:48:29.278
Yeah, I think so.
00:48:30.128 --> 00:48:32.548
So 20 years, you've seen a lot.
00:48:32.759 --> 00:48:33.969
You've seen a lot in this industry.
00:48:33.969 --> 00:48:38.894
What, in your opinion, how is the industry really doing?
00:48:38.894 --> 00:48:40.605
'cause obviously we hear a lot of stuff.
00:48:40.634 --> 00:48:40.844
Yeah.
00:48:40.844 --> 00:48:41.324
But you're in it, right?
00:48:41.324 --> 00:48:41.889
What, how's it doing?
00:48:42.130 --> 00:48:42.329
I mean.
00:48:43.980 --> 00:48:50.940
First and foremost, you see yourself and, and you know, we're, at the moment we're sort of, it's a real battle to get to our happy place.
00:48:51.000 --> 00:48:54.809
You know, we are, you know, there's not, you're working twice as hard.
00:48:55.230 --> 00:48:56.940
It really is hard work, I think.
00:48:56.940 --> 00:49:04.380
And, you know, we're, we're fortunate to have some, some really good people, and we, and we have a brand that people, seemingly want.
00:49:05.219 --> 00:49:06.750
and it's, it's tough.
00:49:06.750 --> 00:49:07.798
It's really tough out there.
00:49:07.829 --> 00:49:08.969
And, you know, I know.
00:49:09.344 --> 00:49:11.675
I don't think anybody's having it easy out there.
00:49:11.675 --> 00:49:15.045
whether it be cask or Keg, whatever can or bottle, whatever.
00:49:15.045 --> 00:49:16.005
It's hard work.
00:49:16.364 --> 00:49:28.965
You know, as I say, since, since the war, in Ukraine, I think we've just seen prices spiral that we've never saw, and I think we've lost a few people along the way with that as well.
00:49:28.965 --> 00:49:31.545
You know, some brewers have gone, which is a real shame.
00:49:32.724 --> 00:49:35.625
and, but I, I still believe.
00:49:36.284 --> 00:49:40.574
There's a thirst for better beer and you're only gonna get better beer from, from us guys.
00:49:40.634 --> 00:49:40.724
Mm-hmm.
00:49:40.724 --> 00:49:42.315
You know, the big boys aren't doing better beer.
00:49:42.824 --> 00:49:45.554
They might have shinier labels and they might have lovely glassware.
00:49:45.644 --> 00:49:47.054
They'll tell you it's better not Yeah, exactly.
00:49:47.054 --> 00:49:48.403
Tell you, but it's not better.
00:49:48.525 --> 00:49:48.614
Yeah.
00:49:48.614 --> 00:49:53.125
And I think that's something that we have as an industry, that we will make beer better.
00:49:54.034 --> 00:49:58.489
and I think that that goes back to my boringness of saying consistency and quality.
00:49:59.210 --> 00:50:04.159
'cause if you can keep, keep to that line that actually that will premiumise eventually and, and does at times.
00:50:04.159 --> 00:50:08.719
You know, you see it in London, you know, they always talk about the £10 Pint and that sort of thing.
00:50:08.719 --> 00:50:14.925
But you know, I think the premiumisation of, Of, of better beer has to, has to be, yeah.
00:50:14.925 --> 00:50:18.585
I guess the big guys, they at the end of the day have a lot of money.
00:50:18.644 --> 00:50:27.735
If you're trying to say the same things as them, it's, you're never gonna stand out because, 'cause they're gonna, but, but the one thing that, that can't, can't talk is the quality of the product.
00:50:27.795 --> 00:50:28.065
Right.
00:50:28.125 --> 00:50:31.125
Like you, if you try something, you like it or you don't, right?
00:50:31.125 --> 00:50:31.425
Yeah.
00:50:31.454 --> 00:50:31.965
Absolutely.
00:50:31.965 --> 00:50:32.114
Yeah.
00:50:32.775 --> 00:50:32.954
Okay.
00:50:32.954 --> 00:50:35.804
So last question before we move on to the last part.
00:50:36.784 --> 00:50:38.699
So I wanna talk about segmentation.
00:50:38.699 --> 00:50:40.170
Before I get into the question.
00:50:40.170 --> 00:50:45.630
I might just explain very briefly what segmentation is for, for, any viewers or listeners that, don't know.
00:50:45.630 --> 00:50:47.969
So there's a lot of bars in the uk.
00:50:48.059 --> 00:50:52.500
Ultimately, every brewery makes a decision of who they want to sell to.
00:50:52.500 --> 00:50:54.269
Those, they'll create segments to do that.
00:50:54.269 --> 00:50:59.519
So I want to sell to only these ones, independent ones, or take the, the, the big, big breweries.
00:50:59.519 --> 00:51:01.650
For instance, they over analyse segmentation like crazy.
00:51:01.650 --> 00:51:04.900
It's like 10 tiers most premium that kind of thing.
00:51:04.920 --> 00:51:30.150
the reason I ask you the question is because I think Thornbridge, is, has got a super interesting, at least, result with this, I don't know the approach, but like, because, ultimately it's an incredibly well-loved brewery, Iconic brewery and premium brewery, but you also make yourself accessible to segments like grocery and, you're in waitrose, excuse me, Weatherspoons as well.
00:51:30.610 --> 00:51:30.670
Yeah.
00:51:30.670 --> 00:51:32.940
so I just wanted to ask like, what is.
00:51:33.375 --> 00:51:35.864
This segmentation approach, or do you not think of it that way?
00:51:35.864 --> 00:51:37.125
How does it, how does it work for you guys?
00:51:37.244 --> 00:51:48.164
Yeah, I mean, we, we do think of it in, in, in that way, but on a, on a broader sort of level in that, you know, as a, as a board, we sat down 10 years ago and said, we ought to get Jaipur to be available to anybody who wants to try it.
00:51:48.764 --> 00:51:59.505
I think Grocer, Grocery gave us that, you know, we were able, as I say, we were in, you know, a couple of thousand Tesco stores across, across Britain, and people, if they wanted to try Jaipur they could and they did, you know, and loved it.
00:51:59.505 --> 00:52:05.605
And what that did is it then, cascaded down and other grocers took it and dah, dah, dah.
00:52:05.630 --> 00:52:20.280
So he got, he got Jaipur out in, in groceries, a national product, which is still out there now I think with, with cask beer, we've worked with, uh, pub groups, all, all the way through, whether it be weatherspoon, M&B, whoever.
00:52:20.820 --> 00:52:32.789
And I think when we did the, the thing with Weatherspoon, they, they, they launched this, thing called a class act where they'd have Grey Goose vodka, Jack Daniels, Jaipur was the premium cask beer.
00:52:33.179 --> 00:52:36.030
So we were quite privileged to have that sort of thing.
00:52:36.030 --> 00:52:40.170
So even, even in the weatherspoons, we'll take 'em now where probably the most expensive beer on the bar.
00:52:40.559 --> 00:52:41.750
Cask beer on the bar.
00:52:42.389 --> 00:52:50.760
and it's been incredible, the thirst, of the drinker to actually, go, to Wetherspoons to drink Jaipur.
00:52:51.030 --> 00:52:55.110
Because as much as we think Jaipur is always available, on cask it's not.
00:52:55.644 --> 00:52:57.744
So it's across the country sort of thing.
00:52:57.744 --> 00:53:02.965
And we've had, we've had people walking out of, of Weatherspoon because they couldn't get a pint of Jaipur.
00:53:03.414 --> 00:53:09.355
But in the same respect, what that's done is that's given us a real, what I call national branding opportunity.
00:53:09.355 --> 00:53:14.695
That has now meant that with that, we've actually got a new listing in Fuller's pubs for Jaipur.
00:53:15.778 --> 00:53:30.079
and other, other pub groups now saying, oh yeah, we, we'd like, all of a sudden we've sort of stepped up to be a national treasure and we're sort of, we're seeing complimentary sales alongside that as we did in grocery when we did it back then.
00:53:30.798 --> 00:53:40.204
It's interesting'cause it sounds like, Well, from that board decision to, to say, you know, I guess to be a, to be a, a household name, you have to be available to households, don't you?
00:53:40.204 --> 00:53:40.264
Yeah.
00:53:40.864 --> 00:53:54.148
but, but I think, you know, to, it sounds like the approach is, instead of saying, We want to be premium by only selling to premium places, what you're saying is we want to be accessible to all, all, but we want to be the most premium option to those people.
00:53:54.148 --> 00:54:05.548
So someone who goes into Weatherspoons and maybe they're not going into, buy their beer in, Raynville bottle shop, that kind of thing, they're gonna see Jaipur as that's the premium that's the top end, right?
00:54:05.548 --> 00:54:05.818
Absolutely.
00:54:05.818 --> 00:54:06.869
It's part of the Class Act.
00:54:06.989 --> 00:54:07.230
Right.
00:54:07.230 --> 00:54:07.500
Okay.
00:54:07.500 --> 00:54:12.838
And I think also what you've got in there is the reason, the way around we've, we've gone it.
00:54:13.199 --> 00:54:14.280
The same as in groceries.
00:54:14.280 --> 00:54:16.559
We haven't diluted the product.
00:54:16.920 --> 00:54:22.710
It's not now a 5% cask beer on the bar or a 5.4% cask beer on the bar.
00:54:22.800 --> 00:54:23.880
It's still 5.9%.
00:54:23.880 --> 00:54:28.650
Yeah, it's still the same beer, you know, and it's, you know, there are, we have many drinkers of Jaipur.
00:54:28.949 --> 00:54:30.420
They don't fit one category.
00:54:30.809 --> 00:54:33.719
You make it available to people, but you make it what it is and see if they want it.
00:54:33.719 --> 00:54:34.650
I think it's what it is and what it costs.
00:54:34.650 --> 00:54:35.909
I pay you money, you take your choice.
00:54:35.969 --> 00:54:36.150
Yeah.
00:54:36.150 --> 00:54:37.559
And I think that's, there's a lot of that.
00:54:38.014 --> 00:54:38.344
Cool.
00:54:38.344 --> 00:54:40.775
Last, the last one is, a little bit of fun here.
00:54:40.775 --> 00:54:42.875
I'm gonna do a bit of a rapid fire around.
00:54:42.875 --> 00:54:42.903
Okay.
00:54:42.934 --> 00:54:51.875
So for these questions, it's gonna be about five, maybe six questions, for these questions, if you could respond with one word or one sentence, right, at most, right?
00:54:51.875 --> 00:54:54.713
So just go with, with, what, comes first.
00:54:56.644 --> 00:55:00.193
name a brewery that excites you today, that's not called Thornbridge.
00:55:01.994 --> 00:55:13.844
That's a difficult one because I, I, I alluded to excitement going out of the industry, but I, what would excite me now is, is reading an old school list of American brewers and seeing, Sierra Nevada pale ale being on a bar.
00:55:13.934 --> 00:55:14.235
Okay.
00:55:14.474 --> 00:55:14.894
Fresh.
00:55:15.914 --> 00:55:18.673
Your go-to Thornbridge beer, it has to be Jaipur.
00:55:20.213 --> 00:55:20.594
Yeah.
00:55:20.775 --> 00:55:22.844
one brand outside of beer that has inspired you.
00:55:25.860 --> 00:55:32.849
I've always said I could, align ourselves with something like Barbour, independently owned.
00:55:33.300 --> 00:55:33.989
Is that the jacket?
00:55:33.989 --> 00:55:46.170
The jacket we started off as a protection jacket, whether it be oil skin through to motorbikes, through to fashion, but having family run, integrity within there and, but still, but modernised along the way.
00:55:46.199 --> 00:55:46.469
Cool.
00:55:47.625 --> 00:55:48.454
Last beer you drank?
00:55:48.963 --> 00:55:53.650
it was actually a bottle of Jaipur.
00:55:54.884 --> 00:55:59.784
So we didn't, we didn't prepare this time.
00:55:59.784 --> 00:55:59.844
No.
00:55:59.844 --> 00:56:04.094
one beer industry prediction that you think will happen within 10 years.
00:56:09.105 --> 00:56:10.434
Craft will rise again.
00:56:10.864 --> 00:56:11.275
Nice.
00:56:11.985 --> 00:56:12.724
I like it.
00:56:12.724 --> 00:56:16.634
last one, one sentence you'd say to inspire others to blaze their own path.
00:56:18.400 --> 00:56:19.664
I said it before, just do it.
00:56:19.934 --> 00:56:20.144
Okay.
00:56:20.699 --> 00:56:21.088
Awesome.
00:56:21.088 --> 00:56:21.659
That's great.
00:56:21.750 --> 00:56:22.380
Thank you so much.
00:56:22.528 --> 00:56:22.769
Cool.
00:56:23.130 --> 00:56:23.608
It's been a pleasure.
00:56:23.978 --> 00:56:26.969
It's been, it's been so good to to, to chat.
00:56:27.000 --> 00:56:27.070
Yeah.
00:56:27.070 --> 00:56:30.119
And obviously, for you to take the time and, and do this.
00:56:30.119 --> 00:56:30.960
I know you got lots going on.
00:56:30.960 --> 00:56:33.179
I think you're going over to the Wild Swan after the this?
00:56:33.269 --> 00:56:33.509
Yeah.
00:56:33.509 --> 00:56:34.199
So we're gonna have a look over that.
00:56:34.199 --> 00:56:34.769
When is it open?
00:56:35.009 --> 00:56:36.150
We're hoping starting November.
00:56:36.494 --> 00:56:36.914
Awesome.
00:56:36.945 --> 00:56:37.724
Yeah, I will be there.
00:56:38.894 --> 00:56:39.315
Good stuff.
00:56:39.375 --> 00:56:45.925
And, and thanks everyone for, for tuning in, listening or, or, or, or, or watching this.
00:56:46.545 --> 00:56:51.735
we, obviously we'll have episode two coming out next, episode two is with Jasper Cuppaidge.
00:56:51.755 --> 00:56:59.114
The founder, of Camden Town Brewery, obviously very, different businesses, but started not at not too dissimilar of time, a few years after you.
00:56:59.983 --> 00:57:01.875
so thanks everyone and we'll catch you next time.