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Welcome to Partnering Leadership, a top global leadership podcast for purpose-driven leaders with a growth mindset, seeking to learn from the leadership journey of change makers and business insights from leading global thinkers.
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For additional leadership insights and bonus content, visit us at partneringleadership.com.
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Now here's your host, Mahan Tavakouli.
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Larry Robertson, welcome back to Partnering Leadership.
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I am thrilled to have you with me.
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It is an honor to be here again.
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Thank you for having me.
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You joined the podcast, Larry, believe it or not, was more than four years ago, episode 125.
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Wow.
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Aired January 2022 on your book, Rebel Leadership.
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Can't wait to talk about your newest book, Great Question, The Art of the Ask and Getting More of What You Really Want.
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What a powerful way of framing that.
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So what I wonder, Larry, you have studied leadership, you have written about leadership.
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Why this focus on questions now?
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I'm going to split that into the two pieces.
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So why the focus on questions and then the now part?
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The primary reason for the focus on the questions was in my work, in my advisory work, but also in my research around the books.
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And my books have been on the topics of entrepreneurship, creativity, leadership, but specifically leadership and uncertainty, and then, of course, the new book.
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And in the first three, in each of those topic spaces, questions played a very prominent role.
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They make for more effective entrepreneurs over a lifetime, not in any one moment, but over a lifetime.
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They allow creatives to actually create value, tangible value, something more than their ideas or a figment of their imagination.
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And with leaders, especially leaders in uncertainty, if they're not asking questions constantly, not only can they not be sure of the path they're on, but they get late signals, if they get any signals at all, when they should be changing the path for an opportunity as much as for a threat.
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So I knew that those elements were there, that questioning was powerful in each of them.
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And every project, Mahan, every book project, I would end the book, meaning finishing the work and say, I really should look into that question thing more.
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And when you read the books, you'll see there's a lot about questions.
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But this idea of coming back and saying, is there something greater?
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So that pattern has always been there as a push.
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But the now part, I think, is what's really important.
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If you look back over the past 25 years, roughly this century, this new century, there has been a global shift away from questions.
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And it started out as a very steadily growing thing, and now it's becoming a little bit more exponential.
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What do I mean by that?
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I mean that more often than not, we're making statements, that more often than not, when we ask a question, we're setting up to confirm a statement or to make a statement.
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Sometimes we're using questions to taunt.
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Sometimes we're using questions to see if we have allegiance with the people that we're asking it from and wanting nothing else from it.
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And so this movement away from questions is a curious thing, but I also think it's a very dangerous thing.
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Because when you look at the research on leadership and business in general, when the uncertainty goes up, the question should as well.
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Because if the uncertainty goes up, at the very least, it has the risk of undermining the assumptions on which you've based your business model, your management style, your company culture, everything that goes with it.
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At a minimum, you've got to ask questions as to whether or not you're still on track with those things, whether or not you remember your assumptions and if they're still relevant, and what's new that you should be incorporating.
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So when I see us moving away from all, that was a signal to me that really pushed me over the top to say, I have to look deeper into this.
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That's a powerful point, Larry.
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And a couple of things I wonder about it is I see societally as the level of uncertainty in our world has picked up.
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It seems to me people are looking more for certainty from their leaders.
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Do you see that as well?
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Because what I hear from you is the level of uncertainty is going up.
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So we need more curiosity and therefore we need to ask questions.
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But I almost see the opposite.
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People are looking for certainty in their leaders because they feel so much uncertainty in the world.
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Oh, I'm going to amplify what you just said.
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Because it's not just the people who are looking to their leaders and wanting, expecting, hoping for some kind of certainty.
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And we can think about all the obvious reasons why.
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You certainly feel a lot better about your situation, about yourself, and so on, if you can say certain things are certain.
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But there's a reinforcing mechanism with how all of us think about leaders.
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We look to leaders to have the answer.
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We look to leaders to fix things.
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We look to leaders in some organizations to pass all that certain information down so we can just continue to be followers.
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And leaders are taught to expect that of themselves, that if they're doing the job right, then somehow they're going to fulfill that mythology of having the answer to everything, of even being able to, one individual, to get their mind around the scope of business today.
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You take the smallest business, you take the simplest business, whatever minimizing adjective you want to put with it.
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And even those businesses are so complex right now.
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The way they have to incorporate technology, the number of places that they have to look for competitors who compete against them, how they bring resources to them, all of those things make for a very complex picture that cannot fit in any one person's head.
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So this mythology, even though it keeps going, is a really dangerous thing in these times as leaders have to take on more.
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And to get any of it done, they need to share that leadership with everybody on their team and everybody in their organization.
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It's a collective solution these days to virtually everything.
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Couldn't agree with you more on that.
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Now, the other side of this that I wonder about, Larry, before we started recording, we were talking a little about AI and AI's implications.
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AJ Agribal talks brilliantly about prediction machines and how the cost of prediction will drop as accuracy of prediction goes up.
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So I wonder, will that therefore increase certainty and reduce our need for questioning or increase it in that we are going to have much more certainty in predicting a lot of things in our lives and in our organizations?
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How do you see that interplaying with the kind of questioning that you are talking about?
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First of all, we have to think about how most AI is built.
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It's looking at data that's already happened, right?
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It is predicting, but it's predicting based on data that I'm going to just work in broad brushstrokes, is basically in the past.
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So in order for those predictions to be accurate, then a large portion of what the past was that generated that data has to be true in the future.
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So do we really believe that in the level of uncertainty that we're all living and working in these days, things are going to stay that much the same?
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I would put a question mark on that at the very least.
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But the second thing is that let's pretend that was going to stay largely the same, or we're talking about an application of AI where we can say, okay, but the data's pretty much the same.
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What are we trying to do with it?
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Are we working towards efficiencies, again, that would have worked in the past or work in this moment?
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Or are we looking for something that allows us to adapt better or to innovate or to create out of things that aren't even there right now?
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If you look at most of human progress, it's what I just described in the last 10 seconds.
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And so in order to do that, it requires a kind of thinking, a kind of exchange, a kind of acceptance and willingness to make mistakes that is not built into how most AI is programmed at this time.
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So I would argue that while it can be helpful in many ways, if we're looking towards the future and we're living in both an uncertain now and an uncertain future, AI is a great supporter and it helps with a lot of efficiencies and crunching data.
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But at the same time, we need things that are bigger than that, and I would say more human than that if we want to keep progressing.
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What a powerful way to frame the importance of that human involvement and human judgment in the creativity that it takes to build the future rather than just rely on the predictions of the past.
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Beautifully said, Larry.
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Now you open your book by calling it a yield guide rather than a traditional field guide.
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So oftentimes a field guide, just for comparison and looking at the more typical, oftentimes a field guide says, the author is saying, This is how I did it.
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If you follow, you'll get the same.
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That's not really what we want from any kind of guide.
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We want something that yields whatever we're after, hopefully yields something greater than what we're after, and continues to yield going forward.
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That's really what I mean by a yield guide in the larger sense is that you want to be able to understand, understand questions and use questions in a way that not only help you to get more of what you want, but really help you get more of what you really want.
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The really word is very important.
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And I say that because we all want yield, but we tend to formulate yield as something that comes out of a set of actions and we get it in this moment.
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What we really want is yield ongoing.
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What we really want is to create value that's lasting.
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What we really want is impact that has some staying power to it.
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So that's the primary reason that I call it a yield guide.
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But there's one other secret reason in there.
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And that is that even though this book is built to help any one person to, as I say it, master the art of the ask, to really get good at question asking and asking greater questions.
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At the end of the day, to get that yield, questioning is something that you have to do collectively.
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And in order to do that well, it means that individual leader we talked about a few minutes ago, the one that has all the answers and can fix everything, has to yield to others who share in figuring out the solution, creating the innovation, whatever it might be.
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So there's a yield of a different type as well, which is to say nobody knows it all, but we can know a lot more together.
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That's where the yield guy comes from.
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That becomes essential in a world that's becoming more and more complex.
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Therefore, the questioning is important, but part of what you're saying is the highest yield is a questioning culture, not necessarily a questioning leader.
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That's absolutely right.
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That is absolutely right.
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And in addition to a questioning culture, so this is interesting.
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Whenever we think about questions, ultimately what we're hoping for is the invitation to ask.
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We don't always get that invitation to ask, but we want that invitation.
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So when somebody says, okay, we're going to develop a more questioning culture in our organization, each of us individually, even if we're not conscious of it, is thinking, I get to ask more.
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But what a questioning culture really means is everybody gets to ask more, which means that there's a portion of the time when you are asking.
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There's another portion of the time when you're at the very least listening.
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But I would suggest have to go a step further, which is to have the intellectual humility to realize, and this is the definition of intellectual humility: one, that there are things you don't know.
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Two, that the things you know might be wrong for the particular situation or problem they're working on.
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And three, that might ask you to change in order for things to become better.
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So if you think about a questioning culture, it's really about helping everyone to realize, including the leader, that there's this balance that everyone is asking, not just a handful of people, that the answer comes from many, not just one.
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And that when you are not asking and answering, you're learning.
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So this is the interesting thing, Muhan.
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There were five patterns that I saw across my research that ultimately lead to great questioning.
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And very quickly, there are five C's core, which is really this sense that we need questions.
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They are core to everything we do.
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We are a questioning species as much or more than we are anything else.
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But then listen to the next one: context.
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Context is really understanding where your questions are taking place and why they matter.
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And we don't often connect the two.
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We think we do, but we don't often connect the two.
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We already talked about the third one, and that's concession, which is not just asking, but this listening and weighing how much you know versus how much you do know, sometimes changing.
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Then there's this fourth pattern of the five, and that's connection.
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What are we trying to connect our questions to or towards?
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And then finally is continuation.
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It's this idea that question asking is not linear.
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Question asking is loopy at best.
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You could say it's circular, but it's really loopy.
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And so the reason I lay those out is that if those are your mentality, it doesn't mean that you're always asking a question, that you're always forming some sentence with a question mark at the end.
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You're looking at the dynamics that go into great questioning all the time.
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What's the context?
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What are we trying to connect this to?
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How does this relate to how we treat one another in an organization and what the culture is?
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So you're doing a lot more of watching that while you both invite and allow the questions to be asked.
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And you're realizing that the only reason you're together trying to figure out how to work with one another in this way is you're trying to get somewhere which takes answers.
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You also say in the book that we thrive on questions.
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The human brain thrives on questions.
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Why is that?
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That is a very good question as to why it is.
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What I can tell you is that the research on this is across disciplines.
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So the belief is shared from anthropology to early childhood development to the study of creativity and more, that we are not just a questioning species, but we are born asking.
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So this is a, I think this is a really interesting, very simple, but really interesting distinction.
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Before we acquire language, which is how most of us think about questions, we're asking, how do I get fed?
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Where do I find a place that I can get rest?
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Who can I count on to give me those things?
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Is this space safe enough for me to play in, to figure things out?
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Before I ever utter a word, and we're questioning each in our own way, taking feedback in and continuing to question.
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This is what makes us a questioning species at our core.
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And when you look at the research, it says that up until about the age of five, that's how children operate.
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They have certain things that restrict them, whether it's their family life or it's communal things or it's teams that they're on.
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It's not until they get to their formal education, and particularly in public schools, that we start to put some rules around question asking.
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But from a birth, from an evolutionary standpoint, that's our survival tool.
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It's the thing that drives our curiosity.
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It's the thing that leads us to create, not just to be curious, but to make something.
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So it's there underneath all the other things that we would credit.
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And it doesn't go away, it just gets covered up.
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So it's really there as a fundamental feature of every one of us.
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It's just that many of us are out of practice in using it.
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Why wouldn't you use that most powerful tool that you rely on from the minute you come out into the world?
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Is it that we've been out of practice as a result of modern education, modern society, or has that happened over time as well, Larry?
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I'm just curious because there are a lot of different authors, many of them I respect, talk about the power of questioning.
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And everyone talks about how kids, they're always questioning, and then they get the wrong answer, and the teacher says this is the right answer, they stop questioning.
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So is it that education has taught us that or other things?
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Because you say our brain thrives on questions.
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What has taken it away from us in order for us to then dust it off and go back to the way we should be?
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So there are three things I want to touch on that you said.
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One is there is no one resource, place, or person to blame.
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So I would never say, oh, it's all about education.
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Education just beats this out of us.
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No, that's not true.
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And if you think about the typical public school, all the people who work in a school are meeting the requirements and the guidelines of other people, from a superintendent to parents who vote a certain way, a school board, whatever it is, even national standards.
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So they're trying to meet those things.
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When they teach, they're given a restriction on how they do that.
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You only have so many hours in a day, and your students must advance this far in this grade during this year to get to the next one.
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So even just in that one example, it's hard to point a finger at anybody.
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Even the people who are imposing the rules and the guidelines on a school, I think we can assume they're generally well intended.
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So we're trying to do multiple things as human beings.
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We're trying to advance and accomplish.
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When we go through one heck of a fight to do those things, we'd like to maintain the easier path we found through all the mistakes we made, right?
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We love it when things are quick, not just because we're lazy or we don't want to try something new, but it's an efficiency and it allows us to have room to pay attention to other things.
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And in an uncertain world, we feel it within us, this desire to be able to check certain things off, say, I'm certain about those, so I can focus on these things that are uncertain.
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So I would answer your question by saying the things that push us away from questions are also in our nature.
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But when you look at what questions do, not only for our day-to-day lives and our ability to move forward, but that they actually help the brain stay healthier and accomplish anything we're going to do, I think it's just a call to action to say we should use this capability more than we do and more freely than we do, but not to the exclusion of other things.
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It's back to that word you put out earlier, balance.
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I love your empathy, Larry, and the way we answered that question.
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In many respects, the restrictions we put, whether it's on teachers or the school board or whoever else, doesn't enable them to ask questions of why are we doing it this way?
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And in many respects, as you mentioned, we do want to add efficiencies and then we cut out the questioning.
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That's exactly right.
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So if you think about, I'm going to call it the modern corporate setting, and I'm going to give it a generous span in, say, the last 150 to 200 years, which is really quite generous, but let's call it that.
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That has leaned more and more towards efficiency.
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Not a bad thing, but more exclusively towards efficiency.
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The evolution in what's up here in our brains, we're talking hundreds of thousands of years.
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So it's pretty well set in there.
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And even though there is not absolute agreement across neuroscience of what's going on in the brain, there is wide and general agreement that the brain is at its best when it is in uncertain conditions, when things are complex, when it's solving, when it feels a sense that it needs to survive, when it is unrestricted, when it is growing in a discovery mode of wanting to find new things.
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This is just the science.
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But everything I just listed there is like a guidebook to say, oh my gosh, that's what we have to deal with in an uncertain world like the one we're living and working in right now.
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Oh, and that's what our brain is built to do.
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So for me, it's that recognition that says we should tap into that the best way.
00:22:00.319 --> 00:22:03.599
Possible to use questions to our advantage.
00:22:03.839 --> 00:22:06.960
These are not zero-sum choices.
00:22:07.200 --> 00:22:14.319
That we pick this new thing, this guy's coming along, another guy's coming along and saying how important questions are, and we chuck everything else.
00:22:14.400 --> 00:22:15.440
That's not it at all.
00:22:15.599 --> 00:22:29.599
It's just saying that the absence of that in today's work and environment and in an environment where AI is becoming much more part of the context and the texture of every work and environment, that's when we need questions most of all.
00:22:29.759 --> 00:22:33.119
And it's not to say, should we have AI or should we not have AI?
00:22:33.200 --> 00:22:39.839
It's to say, how do we make this partnership with this technology work the best way it can for what we're trying to accomplish?
00:22:40.079 --> 00:22:42.319
That's an example of the role of questions.
00:22:42.799 --> 00:22:47.200
So in order to do that, Larry, how should I start in this process?
00:22:47.680 --> 00:22:59.119
I think the first place that most leaders should start is to quietly observe, as a leader, whether or not questions are being asked in their organization.
00:22:59.599 --> 00:23:03.119
And if they are being asked, are they really questions?
00:23:03.440 --> 00:23:05.359
Or are they statements that are being made?
00:23:05.759 --> 00:23:06.799
I love the point you made.
00:23:07.039 --> 00:23:09.039
Whether questions are being asked.
00:23:09.200 --> 00:23:10.400
What types of questions?
00:23:10.640 --> 00:23:16.160
How do you know people are really asking questions in this organization?
00:23:16.720 --> 00:23:17.039
Sure.
00:23:17.200 --> 00:23:20.880
And that itself is a good question because there's a whole range, right?
00:23:21.039 --> 00:23:32.480
If you lay out a spectrum, as I do in the book, just for reference, this is not an absolute, but just to say where questions fall, there's a spectrum that runs from on one end what I call functional questions.
00:23:32.720 --> 00:23:34.000
What's for lunch?
00:23:34.240 --> 00:23:36.240
What will the numbers be next quarter?
00:23:36.559 --> 00:23:37.920
Did we hit them, right?
00:23:38.400 --> 00:23:42.400
There's a function to those questions that is really after an answer.
00:23:42.640 --> 00:23:48.400
And then that question is has less return that you get from it once it's been answered.
00:23:48.480 --> 00:23:49.440
That's on the functional end.
00:23:49.759 --> 00:23:53.519
Then there are these, I call on the other end of the spectrum, great questions.
00:23:53.839 --> 00:23:54.640
They're bigger.
00:23:54.799 --> 00:23:57.920
They're more related to your vision for the organization.
00:23:58.240 --> 00:24:00.400
They even start to touch on strategy.
00:24:00.559 --> 00:24:02.160
They're certainly there in the mission.
00:24:02.240 --> 00:24:09.039
They're open-ended in a way because you find, you say, this is the hill I want to take, this is what I want to accomplish.
00:24:09.200 --> 00:24:17.680
And then you start asking some functional questions about how do I do it in the immediate, but you're always returning to that longer-term view and that longer-term path.
00:24:18.000 --> 00:24:22.559
Then there's the stuff in the middle, and I call it the messy middle.
00:24:22.720 --> 00:24:29.680
And the kind of questions that reside in the messy middle are not just ones that aren't functional or aren't great.
00:24:29.839 --> 00:24:32.160
They're questions that have not been thought about.
00:24:32.799 --> 00:24:42.960
So because we don't know if we're using questions in a functional way or we're stretching for something greater, and we just don't take the time to ask, is that why we're asking?
00:24:43.200 --> 00:24:47.680
We never place them on the right path so that they can have the greatest return for us.
00:24:47.839 --> 00:24:56.400
So this is why I say even observing whether or not you're asking questions and then observing where they fit on that spectrum tells you a lot.
00:24:56.559 --> 00:25:06.720
A lot of leaders will look at the questions that are being asked, they'll see that questions are being asked, place them on that spectrum, and see that not many great questions are being asked, right?
00:25:06.880 --> 00:25:08.240
They're all about the function.
00:25:08.400 --> 00:25:11.279
In a world that's ever changing, that's a pretty dangerous thing.
00:25:11.519 --> 00:25:16.799
The second thing a leader can look for without ever opening their mouth is who's asking?
00:25:17.119 --> 00:25:23.440
Is everybody invited to ask, or is that limited to the C-suite or certain leadership or just the managers?
00:25:23.599 --> 00:25:35.839
Or does it radiate all the way down to the people who touch the product or the service or the customers most directly and probably have some pretty interesting insights that we all should be asking questions about?
00:25:36.000 --> 00:25:39.039
So these observations of are you asking at all?
00:25:39.279 --> 00:25:41.200
What kinds of questions are being asked?
00:25:41.440 --> 00:25:42.640
Who's asking them?
00:25:42.799 --> 00:25:45.680
And then underneath that, what's the origin story of all that?
00:25:45.759 --> 00:25:50.400
Do we have a culture that basically says, without saying it, you're not allowed to ask?
00:25:50.640 --> 00:25:58.480
Or do we have a culture on the other end that says, I truly want you to be innovative, even if it turns the place upside down while you're doing that?
00:25:58.640 --> 00:26:00.240
Or is it somewhere in between?
00:26:00.480 --> 00:26:08.240
Just those alone tell an individual leader where questions fit in their organization.
00:26:08.720 --> 00:26:10.319
And that's really the answer.
00:26:10.480 --> 00:26:14.559
Because if I was to sit here and say, here's how everybody starts, right?
00:26:14.799 --> 00:26:20.720
And this is the path you have to follow after that, it shows that I don't know very much about questions.
00:26:20.880 --> 00:26:27.920
But if you approach it in the way that I'm suggesting, I think you can learn a lot about what you know, what you don't know, and what you could do.
00:26:28.720 --> 00:26:38.079
Now, would that gauge be different, Larry, with respect to the type of organization or industry, or do you see it being relevant in all types of organizations?
00:26:38.400 --> 00:26:45.200
I think you could pick an organization or an industry where let's just say things don't change a lot.
00:26:45.440 --> 00:26:48.160
It doesn't mean they don't change at all.
00:26:48.720 --> 00:26:52.960
Our tendency is to say, oh gosh, we're an amazingly innovative organization.
00:26:53.119 --> 00:27:00.160
We should be asking all the time and really pushing that, or on the other extreme, no, we're pretty predictable and we should be pushing towards efficiency.
00:27:00.319 --> 00:27:14.160
So it's not that those statements are completely wrong, but they say something about the proportion of question question asking that you do and the way you ask questions rather than whether they should be there or not be there, if that makes sense.
00:27:14.400 --> 00:27:21.440
So I think that does shift across organizations and appropriately, and you mentioned AI in that.
00:27:21.759 --> 00:27:26.880
The role of AI in any organization shifts in a similar way.
00:27:27.119 --> 00:27:28.160
It's a tool.
00:27:28.400 --> 00:27:36.960
It can be a partnering tool, but it's not going to mean the same thing in every organization or in any moment in time.
00:27:37.119 --> 00:27:42.960
It's a tool that needs to be constantly referenced again to say, what is it we want this to do?
00:27:43.119 --> 00:27:44.799
How do we want it to help us?
00:27:45.039 --> 00:27:48.000
How do we as humans want to interact with it?
00:27:48.079 --> 00:27:51.680
And does that still fit the assumptions and circumstances we're in?
00:27:51.839 --> 00:27:53.359
Or do we need to change something?
00:27:53.519 --> 00:27:56.799
That's not really new to leadership or management or anything else.
00:27:56.960 --> 00:27:59.839
It's just a new thing we're asking those questions about.
00:28:00.160 --> 00:28:03.920
So it takes that intellectual humility we've touched on a couple of times.
00:28:04.000 --> 00:28:09.519
And I think the more experience we gain, the older we get, the higher up people move into organizations.
00:28:10.400 --> 00:28:14.880
We do accumulate a certain amount of expertise, knowledge, understanding.
00:28:15.039 --> 00:28:26.319
It becomes harder to maintain that intellectual humility that is required for the right types of questions for us to ask.
00:28:26.559 --> 00:28:28.240
How do you do that, Larry?
00:28:28.400 --> 00:28:33.759
You are brilliant, author of many books, Fulbright scholar, you name it.
00:28:34.079 --> 00:28:38.000
How do you maintain intellectual humility?
00:28:39.279 --> 00:28:41.359
Thank you for those very nice compliments.
00:28:41.519 --> 00:28:49.599
But I will tell you that the more projects I get into, like the ones you described, really the more I understand that I don't know.
00:28:49.839 --> 00:28:51.279
And I like to learn.
00:28:51.519 --> 00:28:55.680
So having that base, I feel, is a bit of an advantage that I like to learn.
00:28:55.839 --> 00:29:09.039
Here's a second thing that I use as a way to practice intellectual humility, and that is to understand that there's a difference between humility as we usually think about it and intellectual humility.
00:29:09.519 --> 00:29:18.160
So humility is really, it really involves an ability to see your current limitations in this situation and this moment.
00:29:18.240 --> 00:29:20.240
It's very now focused.
00:29:20.400 --> 00:29:26.640
And we think of that as humbling in the sense of almost yielding or giving up in the bad sense.
00:29:26.880 --> 00:29:34.960
Intellectual humility focuses on knowledge, beliefs, intelligence, things that are bigger than this moment.
00:29:35.119 --> 00:29:45.680
And so one of the ways that I think about intellectual humility and try to embrace it more often is to say, what is this moment telling me about how I think overall?
00:29:45.839 --> 00:29:49.839
What is this moment telling me about what this moment might mean in the future?
00:29:50.000 --> 00:29:51.759
And its reference points to the past.
00:29:51.920 --> 00:30:11.440
So it's even just that distinction between humility, which we think of as meekness, and intellectual humility, which is more growth mindset, is a distinguishing factor that I think we free ourselves to practice more intellectual humility that way rather than saying, oh my God, that's a form of humility.
00:30:11.519 --> 00:30:12.720
I got to get away from it.
00:30:12.880 --> 00:30:18.319
But let me give you a couple of others that I found very interesting from some of the interviews I did.
00:30:18.559 --> 00:30:30.240
One person I spoke with talked about how her signal to herself to regain intellectual humility as a priority is to quiet her cleverness.
00:30:30.880 --> 00:30:38.400
So it is this acknowledgement that she is unbelievably clever and smart and accomplished and everything else.
00:30:38.960 --> 00:30:46.079
But the way she can stay achieving at that level is to quiet her cleverness.
00:30:46.319 --> 00:30:51.200
A second person I talked to said, I try to listen atmospherically.
00:30:51.440 --> 00:31:00.079
And I love that because it says instead of in a QA exchange where I'm typically waiting for an answer, I ask you a question and I'm waiting for an answer.
00:31:00.160 --> 00:31:05.279
Or I ask you a question and whatever your answer is, I'm trying to move on to my next question.
00:31:05.920 --> 00:31:10.000
Listening atmospherically is like taking in those five C's.
00:31:10.079 --> 00:31:13.359
What is the context in which we're saying these things to one another?
00:31:13.519 --> 00:31:15.039
What am I trying to connect this to?
00:31:15.200 --> 00:31:16.880
What could I connect it to?
00:31:17.039 --> 00:31:23.440
So I love that concept of am I listening atmospherically or am I listening in a very narrow, typical way?
00:31:23.599 --> 00:31:28.880
And I'll give you one more, and that is to decolonize our thinking.
00:31:29.759 --> 00:31:36.640
We don't realize how quickly we get down a path to thinking within boundaries.
00:31:36.880 --> 00:31:39.599
It's not a totally bad thing.
00:31:39.759 --> 00:31:45.920
It's just something that needs to happen and then needs to open up and then needs to happen again and needs to open up.
00:31:46.000 --> 00:31:55.359
And when we don't have those opening up intervals, we colonize, we become very close to our thoughts and we put boundaries around them.
00:31:55.519 --> 00:32:12.480
So if you decolonize your thinking, as somebody else I spoke with said, you're allowing yourself to move beyond the boundaries, beyond the rules, the plans, even the results that you've had, not necessarily to change, but to see where there is opportunity to change or to do better.
00:32:12.640 --> 00:32:13.039
That's it.
00:32:13.119 --> 00:32:22.960
And if you think of all three of those things, quieting your cleverness, listening atmospherically, and decolonizing your thinking, you're just playing around.
00:32:23.119 --> 00:32:26.000
Nobody has asked you to change anything.
00:32:26.160 --> 00:32:31.039
You're just trying out new ways to see the world and to see your own thoughts.
00:32:31.279 --> 00:32:33.279
That's intellectual humility.
00:32:34.319 --> 00:32:37.519
What a beautiful way to frame it.
00:32:37.759 --> 00:32:47.359
Because before we follow your framework asking questions, we really need to open up and have that intellectual humility.
00:32:48.160 --> 00:32:48.640
Exactly.
00:32:48.799 --> 00:32:50.559
So this is an interesting thing.
00:32:50.799 --> 00:32:54.720
That the art of the ask is an overlay to anything else you're doing.
00:32:54.880 --> 00:32:56.400
It's not a replacement.
00:32:56.799 --> 00:33:02.400
So you asked me the question about how does a leader, CEO, whoever it might be, begin to do this.
00:33:02.640 --> 00:33:09.200
And I was thinking at the time about Danny Warshe, his book, which is See Solve Scale.
00:33:09.839 --> 00:33:12.720
And it's a Bible-like book for entrepreneurs.
00:33:13.039 --> 00:33:18.640
Danny is a multi-time serial entrepreneur, like successful entrepreneur.
00:33:18.799 --> 00:33:24.079
And he started the institution at Brown University for entrepreneurship.
00:33:24.240 --> 00:33:26.799
So he's seen it from a lot of different angles.
00:33:27.039 --> 00:33:32.880
So Danny has a way that he encourages entrepreneurs to think about how they build their business.
00:33:33.039 --> 00:33:37.440
This is something that a leader in any position with any type of organization has to think about.
00:33:37.680 --> 00:33:41.359
And so he boils it down to a framework that has four components.
00:33:41.680 --> 00:33:43.039
Digest, right?
00:33:43.200 --> 00:33:51.039
You take whatever's in front of you, the opportunity, the threat, the culture that exists, the culture that you want, and you digest what's there first.
00:33:51.200 --> 00:33:53.119
That's a big question-asking thing.
00:33:53.279 --> 00:33:54.960
Then the second step is to aim it.
00:33:55.039 --> 00:34:03.599
Whatever I've taken in, where do I aim it towards something I can build on when it comes back as something that's worth pursuing, which sometimes that takes a while?
00:34:03.839 --> 00:34:06.480
The third thing I want to do is embed the behavior, right?
00:34:06.559 --> 00:34:12.719
If I digested that this is the right thing to aim at and the way I'm doing it is working, I want that to become a behavior.
00:34:12.880 --> 00:34:16.559
And ultimately the fourth step is to establish a new norm.
00:34:16.960 --> 00:34:20.639
So what I'm doing is I'm just giving you another framework, right?
00:34:20.880 --> 00:34:24.639
And I'm not saying that's better or worse than the art of the ask.
00:34:24.719 --> 00:34:26.800
What I'm saying is the two things go together.
00:34:27.039 --> 00:34:32.239
And any leader can say, gosh, I work off this framework, whether it's loose or firm.
00:34:32.480 --> 00:34:33.679
The answer is good.
00:34:33.840 --> 00:34:38.239
Begin with that and overlay the art of the ask on it.
00:34:38.719 --> 00:34:46.239
That is more likely to get you to see the truth and then to make the kind of changes you need to make that are the valuable ones we want to make.
00:34:46.559 --> 00:34:54.239
And in doing that, I want to wrap up with one thing that's been on my mind a lot as well, Larry.
00:34:54.559 --> 00:34:59.119
You mentioned that our brain treats open questions like a batch file.
00:34:59.280 --> 00:35:00.960
And I love that analogy.
00:35:01.599 --> 00:35:10.079
And therefore, the power of even asking ourselves better questions.
00:35:10.480 --> 00:35:10.800
Yeah.
00:35:11.039 --> 00:35:16.320
So I think of it as your R-O-R, your return on reflection.
00:35:16.880 --> 00:35:21.599
Because typically, when you're asking yourself questions, you're asking reflective questions.
00:35:21.760 --> 00:35:27.280
They might be directed towards something, so we think of them more in those terms, but they typically are reflective.
00:35:27.519 --> 00:35:32.559
And I would start by saying there are those who don't do that, right?
00:35:32.800 --> 00:35:37.840
They probably have experience that it works, but they don't do it as a habit or as a practice.
00:35:38.000 --> 00:35:39.360
That's a good place to begin.
00:35:39.599 --> 00:35:46.239
The second thing, which is even more powerful, is when we reflect on something, we tend to look backwards, just like AI.
00:35:46.480 --> 00:35:53.280
We tend to look back and reflect on what's happened and learn the better lesson in that context that's already occurred.
00:35:53.440 --> 00:35:55.679
But reflection can happen forward too.
00:35:55.920 --> 00:36:01.039
It's a training ground for doing things in the future and hopefully doing things more efficiently.
00:36:01.199 --> 00:36:06.960
And then when you expand that and into an exchange with others, you amplify that reflection.
00:36:07.199 --> 00:36:14.480
So it's one of those ways that we can start personally, amplify what we do personally, and then connect it to other people.
00:36:14.639 --> 00:36:18.719
And I think that's always the best individual exercise.
00:36:19.119 --> 00:36:20.639
It is a powerful exercise.
00:36:20.800 --> 00:36:26.239
And I have to tell you, it's been on my mind the past few weeks after I read your book.
00:36:26.400 --> 00:36:31.199
You've all known Harari, he is a tiny bit dystopian on AI.
00:36:31.599 --> 00:36:42.559
And he talks about how his concern is when AI gets to know us better than we know ourselves, and how it will therefore be able to manipulate us.
00:36:42.960 --> 00:37:02.320
On the other end of it, if we are able to ask ourselves deeper and better questions, we will also get to know ourselves better, achieving part of what Harari says we need to be able to do in order to have more control of our own judgment rather than AI.
00:37:02.639 --> 00:37:04.800
Yeah, I really love the way you summarize that.
00:37:04.960 --> 00:37:07.119
And I'd summarize it down to one word.
00:37:07.199 --> 00:37:08.480
It's a choice.
00:37:08.960 --> 00:37:11.440
So it's not a lack of ability.
00:37:11.599 --> 00:37:14.320
It's not even a lack of know-how about what to do.
00:37:14.480 --> 00:37:26.079
If you don't like my guidelines in my book, there are others out there that encourage you to ask questions, but you have this choice to ask, to reflect, and to build your knowledge of yourself.
00:37:26.320 --> 00:37:33.599
AI isn't going to replace us without us choosing to allow it to replace us.
00:37:33.760 --> 00:37:35.199
That's the ultimate takeaway.
00:37:35.440 --> 00:37:37.920
So I think we have a little bit of a job to do.
00:37:38.239 --> 00:37:38.880
We do.
00:37:39.119 --> 00:37:45.519
And learning how to ask better questions becomes an essential part of that, Larry.
00:37:45.679 --> 00:37:52.639
So for the audience to follow you, your work, and find your book, where would you send them to, Larry?
00:37:53.039 --> 00:37:54.159
I appreciate you're asking.
00:37:54.320 --> 00:37:56.800
So the book can be found virtually anywhere.
00:37:56.960 --> 00:38:03.920
But if you go to my website, LR, those are my initials, Larry Robertson, lrspeaks.com.
00:38:04.079 --> 00:38:08.639
You can learn about the book, me, get the book, and everything else you probably want.
00:38:09.599 --> 00:38:19.679
I so appreciate you, Larry, and your book, Great Question, The Art of the Ask, and Getting More of What You Really Want.
00:38:19.840 --> 00:38:23.280
Thank you so much for joining me in this conversation, Larry Robertson.
00:38:23.519 --> 00:38:26.239
Thank you for the invitation and the great questions.
00:38:27.679 --> 00:38:31.920
You have been listening to partnering leadership with your host, Mahan Tavakoli.
00:38:32.559 --> 00:38:48.079
If you enjoyed this episode, please leave a rating and review of the podcast on your favorite podcasting app and forward the conversation to a friend or colleague so you can help more people discover their purpose, grow professionally with meaning, and have a greater impact.
00:38:48.320 --> 00:38:54.480
For additional leadership insights and bonus content, visit us at partneringleadership.com.
00:00:01.760 --> 00:00:15.039
Welcome to Partnering Leadership, a top global leadership podcast for purpose-driven leaders with a growth mindset, seeking to learn from the leadership journey of change makers and business insights from leading global thinkers.
00:00:15.279 --> 00:00:21.359
For additional leadership insights and bonus content, visit us at partneringleadership.com.
00:00:21.679 --> 00:00:24.399
Now here's your host, Mahan Tavakouli.
00:00:29.679 --> 00:00:33.439
Larry Robertson, welcome back to Partnering Leadership.
00:00:33.520 --> 00:00:35.200
I am thrilled to have you with me.
00:00:35.520 --> 00:00:37.920
It is an honor to be here again.
00:00:38.079 --> 00:00:39.359
Thank you for having me.
00:00:39.600 --> 00:00:47.600
You joined the podcast, Larry, believe it or not, was more than four years ago, episode 125.
00:00:47.920 --> 00:00:48.159
Wow.
00:00:48.399 --> 00:00:53.840
Aired January 2022 on your book, Rebel Leadership.
00:00:54.000 --> 00:01:05.760
Can't wait to talk about your newest book, Great Question, The Art of the Ask and Getting More of What You Really Want.
00:01:06.239 --> 00:01:09.920
What a powerful way of framing that.
00:01:10.079 --> 00:01:15.280
So what I wonder, Larry, you have studied leadership, you have written about leadership.
00:01:15.519 --> 00:01:18.719
Why this focus on questions now?
00:01:19.840 --> 00:01:21.760
I'm going to split that into the two pieces.
00:01:21.840 --> 00:01:24.799
So why the focus on questions and then the now part?
00:01:25.599 --> 00:01:32.879
The primary reason for the focus on the questions was in my work, in my advisory work, but also in my research around the books.
00:01:33.040 --> 00:01:42.239
And my books have been on the topics of entrepreneurship, creativity, leadership, but specifically leadership and uncertainty, and then, of course, the new book.
00:01:42.319 --> 00:01:50.480
And in the first three, in each of those topic spaces, questions played a very prominent role.
00:01:50.719 --> 00:01:57.120
They make for more effective entrepreneurs over a lifetime, not in any one moment, but over a lifetime.
00:01:57.439 --> 00:02:07.040
They allow creatives to actually create value, tangible value, something more than their ideas or a figment of their imagination.
00:02:07.280 --> 00:02:23.759
And with leaders, especially leaders in uncertainty, if they're not asking questions constantly, not only can they not be sure of the path they're on, but they get late signals, if they get any signals at all, when they should be changing the path for an opportunity as much as for a threat.
00:02:23.919 --> 00:02:29.919
So I knew that those elements were there, that questioning was powerful in each of them.
00:02:30.000 --> 00:02:38.319
And every project, Mahan, every book project, I would end the book, meaning finishing the work and say, I really should look into that question thing more.
00:02:38.479 --> 00:02:41.439
And when you read the books, you'll see there's a lot about questions.
00:02:41.599 --> 00:02:45.280
But this idea of coming back and saying, is there something greater?
00:02:45.599 --> 00:02:49.039
So that pattern has always been there as a push.
00:02:49.120 --> 00:02:51.599
But the now part, I think, is what's really important.
00:02:52.240 --> 00:03:04.240
If you look back over the past 25 years, roughly this century, this new century, there has been a global shift away from questions.
00:03:04.719 --> 00:03:10.560
And it started out as a very steadily growing thing, and now it's becoming a little bit more exponential.
00:03:10.719 --> 00:03:11.680
What do I mean by that?
00:03:11.840 --> 00:03:22.319
I mean that more often than not, we're making statements, that more often than not, when we ask a question, we're setting up to confirm a statement or to make a statement.
00:03:22.479 --> 00:03:24.800
Sometimes we're using questions to taunt.
00:03:25.039 --> 00:03:33.120
Sometimes we're using questions to see if we have allegiance with the people that we're asking it from and wanting nothing else from it.
00:03:33.360 --> 00:03:39.360
And so this movement away from questions is a curious thing, but I also think it's a very dangerous thing.
00:03:39.599 --> 00:03:47.840
Because when you look at the research on leadership and business in general, when the uncertainty goes up, the question should as well.
00:03:48.080 --> 00:03:59.759
Because if the uncertainty goes up, at the very least, it has the risk of undermining the assumptions on which you've based your business model, your management style, your company culture, everything that goes with it.
00:04:00.080 --> 00:04:11.599
At a minimum, you've got to ask questions as to whether or not you're still on track with those things, whether or not you remember your assumptions and if they're still relevant, and what's new that you should be incorporating.
00:04:11.759 --> 00:04:19.279
So when I see us moving away from all, that was a signal to me that really pushed me over the top to say, I have to look deeper into this.
00:04:19.839 --> 00:04:21.759
That's a powerful point, Larry.
00:04:21.839 --> 00:04:31.120
And a couple of things I wonder about it is I see societally as the level of uncertainty in our world has picked up.
00:04:31.360 --> 00:04:38.000
It seems to me people are looking more for certainty from their leaders.
00:04:38.160 --> 00:04:40.000
Do you see that as well?
00:04:40.560 --> 00:04:44.879
Because what I hear from you is the level of uncertainty is going up.
00:04:45.120 --> 00:04:49.040
So we need more curiosity and therefore we need to ask questions.
00:04:49.199 --> 00:04:50.879
But I almost see the opposite.
00:04:51.120 --> 00:04:56.720
People are looking for certainty in their leaders because they feel so much uncertainty in the world.
00:04:57.040 --> 00:04:59.519
Oh, I'm going to amplify what you just said.
00:04:59.759 --> 00:05:07.600
Because it's not just the people who are looking to their leaders and wanting, expecting, hoping for some kind of certainty.
00:05:07.759 --> 00:05:10.959
And we can think about all the obvious reasons why.
00:05:11.279 --> 00:05:18.639
You certainly feel a lot better about your situation, about yourself, and so on, if you can say certain things are certain.
00:05:18.800 --> 00:05:23.600
But there's a reinforcing mechanism with how all of us think about leaders.
00:05:23.920 --> 00:05:26.560
We look to leaders to have the answer.
00:05:26.720 --> 00:05:28.560
We look to leaders to fix things.
00:05:28.720 --> 00:05:37.279
We look to leaders in some organizations to pass all that certain information down so we can just continue to be followers.
00:05:37.519 --> 00:05:55.040
And leaders are taught to expect that of themselves, that if they're doing the job right, then somehow they're going to fulfill that mythology of having the answer to everything, of even being able to, one individual, to get their mind around the scope of business today.
00:05:55.199 --> 00:06:01.439
You take the smallest business, you take the simplest business, whatever minimizing adjective you want to put with it.
00:06:01.680 --> 00:06:05.600
And even those businesses are so complex right now.
00:06:05.839 --> 00:06:21.279
The way they have to incorporate technology, the number of places that they have to look for competitors who compete against them, how they bring resources to them, all of those things make for a very complex picture that cannot fit in any one person's head.
00:06:21.519 --> 00:06:29.439
So this mythology, even though it keeps going, is a really dangerous thing in these times as leaders have to take on more.
00:06:29.600 --> 00:06:36.319
And to get any of it done, they need to share that leadership with everybody on their team and everybody in their organization.
00:06:36.480 --> 00:06:39.839
It's a collective solution these days to virtually everything.
00:06:40.240 --> 00:06:42.480
Couldn't agree with you more on that.
00:06:42.720 --> 00:06:51.519
Now, the other side of this that I wonder about, Larry, before we started recording, we were talking a little about AI and AI's implications.
00:06:51.920 --> 00:07:01.360
AJ Agribal talks brilliantly about prediction machines and how the cost of prediction will drop as accuracy of prediction goes up.
00:07:02.319 --> 00:07:19.120
So I wonder, will that therefore increase certainty and reduce our need for questioning or increase it in that we are going to have much more certainty in predicting a lot of things in our lives and in our organizations?
00:07:19.600 --> 00:07:24.800
How do you see that interplaying with the kind of questioning that you are talking about?
00:07:25.120 --> 00:07:28.240
First of all, we have to think about how most AI is built.
00:07:28.480 --> 00:07:31.680
It's looking at data that's already happened, right?
00:07:32.000 --> 00:07:40.480
It is predicting, but it's predicting based on data that I'm going to just work in broad brushstrokes, is basically in the past.
00:07:41.040 --> 00:07:51.040
So in order for those predictions to be accurate, then a large portion of what the past was that generated that data has to be true in the future.
00:07:51.360 --> 00:08:00.079
So do we really believe that in the level of uncertainty that we're all living and working in these days, things are going to stay that much the same?
00:08:00.319 --> 00:08:03.519
I would put a question mark on that at the very least.
00:08:03.759 --> 00:08:14.639
But the second thing is that let's pretend that was going to stay largely the same, or we're talking about an application of AI where we can say, okay, but the data's pretty much the same.
00:08:14.959 --> 00:08:16.800
What are we trying to do with it?
00:08:17.120 --> 00:08:23.439
Are we working towards efficiencies, again, that would have worked in the past or work in this moment?
00:08:23.680 --> 00:08:33.360
Or are we looking for something that allows us to adapt better or to innovate or to create out of things that aren't even there right now?
00:08:33.600 --> 00:08:38.399
If you look at most of human progress, it's what I just described in the last 10 seconds.
00:08:38.720 --> 00:08:55.360
And so in order to do that, it requires a kind of thinking, a kind of exchange, a kind of acceptance and willingness to make mistakes that is not built into how most AI is programmed at this time.
00:08:55.600 --> 00:09:10.320
So I would argue that while it can be helpful in many ways, if we're looking towards the future and we're living in both an uncertain now and an uncertain future, AI is a great supporter and it helps with a lot of efficiencies and crunching data.
00:09:10.480 --> 00:09:17.039
But at the same time, we need things that are bigger than that, and I would say more human than that if we want to keep progressing.
00:09:17.440 --> 00:09:34.720
What a powerful way to frame the importance of that human involvement and human judgment in the creativity that it takes to build the future rather than just rely on the predictions of the past.
00:09:35.039 --> 00:09:36.559
Beautifully said, Larry.
00:09:36.720 --> 00:09:44.639
Now you open your book by calling it a yield guide rather than a traditional field guide.
00:09:45.279 --> 00:09:54.159
So oftentimes a field guide, just for comparison and looking at the more typical, oftentimes a field guide says, the author is saying, This is how I did it.
00:09:54.399 --> 00:09:56.720
If you follow, you'll get the same.
00:09:56.960 --> 00:10:00.320
That's not really what we want from any kind of guide.
00:10:00.559 --> 00:10:10.639
We want something that yields whatever we're after, hopefully yields something greater than what we're after, and continues to yield going forward.
00:10:10.799 --> 00:10:30.080
That's really what I mean by a yield guide in the larger sense is that you want to be able to understand, understand questions and use questions in a way that not only help you to get more of what you want, but really help you get more of what you really want.
00:10:30.240 --> 00:10:31.919
The really word is very important.
00:10:32.080 --> 00:10:42.480
And I say that because we all want yield, but we tend to formulate yield as something that comes out of a set of actions and we get it in this moment.
00:10:42.799 --> 00:10:45.519
What we really want is yield ongoing.
00:10:45.679 --> 00:10:48.799
What we really want is to create value that's lasting.
00:10:48.960 --> 00:10:53.360
What we really want is impact that has some staying power to it.
00:10:53.600 --> 00:10:57.120
So that's the primary reason that I call it a yield guide.
00:10:57.200 --> 00:11:00.240
But there's one other secret reason in there.
00:11:00.399 --> 00:11:13.039
And that is that even though this book is built to help any one person to, as I say it, master the art of the ask, to really get good at question asking and asking greater questions.
00:11:13.440 --> 00:11:19.519
At the end of the day, to get that yield, questioning is something that you have to do collectively.
00:11:19.759 --> 00:11:38.480
And in order to do that well, it means that individual leader we talked about a few minutes ago, the one that has all the answers and can fix everything, has to yield to others who share in figuring out the solution, creating the innovation, whatever it might be.
00:11:38.639 --> 00:11:45.759
So there's a yield of a different type as well, which is to say nobody knows it all, but we can know a lot more together.
00:11:45.919 --> 00:11:47.759
That's where the yield guy comes from.
00:11:48.240 --> 00:11:53.200
That becomes essential in a world that's becoming more and more complex.
00:11:53.840 --> 00:12:04.399
Therefore, the questioning is important, but part of what you're saying is the highest yield is a questioning culture, not necessarily a questioning leader.
00:12:04.799 --> 00:12:06.080
That's absolutely right.
00:12:06.240 --> 00:12:07.200
That is absolutely right.
00:12:07.360 --> 00:12:10.320
And in addition to a questioning culture, so this is interesting.
00:12:10.480 --> 00:12:16.720
Whenever we think about questions, ultimately what we're hoping for is the invitation to ask.
00:12:16.960 --> 00:12:20.480
We don't always get that invitation to ask, but we want that invitation.
00:12:20.559 --> 00:12:30.639
So when somebody says, okay, we're going to develop a more questioning culture in our organization, each of us individually, even if we're not conscious of it, is thinking, I get to ask more.
00:12:30.879 --> 00:12:38.559
But what a questioning culture really means is everybody gets to ask more, which means that there's a portion of the time when you are asking.
00:12:38.799 --> 00:12:43.440
There's another portion of the time when you're at the very least listening.
00:12:43.679 --> 00:12:55.360
But I would suggest have to go a step further, which is to have the intellectual humility to realize, and this is the definition of intellectual humility: one, that there are things you don't know.
00:12:55.919 --> 00:13:02.480
Two, that the things you know might be wrong for the particular situation or problem they're working on.
00:13:02.639 --> 00:13:07.600
And three, that might ask you to change in order for things to become better.
00:13:07.840 --> 00:13:22.559
So if you think about a questioning culture, it's really about helping everyone to realize, including the leader, that there's this balance that everyone is asking, not just a handful of people, that the answer comes from many, not just one.
00:13:22.720 --> 00:13:26.480
And that when you are not asking and answering, you're learning.
00:13:26.720 --> 00:13:28.480
So this is the interesting thing, Muhan.
00:13:28.720 --> 00:13:35.919
There were five patterns that I saw across my research that ultimately lead to great questioning.
00:13:36.000 --> 00:13:42.399
And very quickly, there are five C's core, which is really this sense that we need questions.
00:13:42.559 --> 00:13:44.240
They are core to everything we do.
00:13:44.399 --> 00:13:48.639
We are a questioning species as much or more than we are anything else.
00:13:48.879 --> 00:13:51.360
But then listen to the next one: context.
00:13:51.679 --> 00:13:57.440
Context is really understanding where your questions are taking place and why they matter.
00:13:57.600 --> 00:13:59.600
And we don't often connect the two.
00:13:59.759 --> 00:14:02.080
We think we do, but we don't often connect the two.
00:14:02.159 --> 00:14:12.559
We already talked about the third one, and that's concession, which is not just asking, but this listening and weighing how much you know versus how much you do know, sometimes changing.
00:14:12.720 --> 00:14:16.799
Then there's this fourth pattern of the five, and that's connection.
00:14:17.039 --> 00:14:21.039
What are we trying to connect our questions to or towards?
00:14:21.200 --> 00:14:23.279
And then finally is continuation.
00:14:23.360 --> 00:14:27.200
It's this idea that question asking is not linear.
00:14:27.519 --> 00:14:30.240
Question asking is loopy at best.
00:14:30.480 --> 00:14:32.960
You could say it's circular, but it's really loopy.
00:14:33.039 --> 00:14:44.480
And so the reason I lay those out is that if those are your mentality, it doesn't mean that you're always asking a question, that you're always forming some sentence with a question mark at the end.
00:14:44.720 --> 00:14:49.440
You're looking at the dynamics that go into great questioning all the time.
00:14:49.600 --> 00:14:50.559
What's the context?
00:14:50.720 --> 00:14:52.480
What are we trying to connect this to?
00:14:52.639 --> 00:14:57.120
How does this relate to how we treat one another in an organization and what the culture is?
00:14:57.279 --> 00:15:04.080
So you're doing a lot more of watching that while you both invite and allow the questions to be asked.
00:15:04.240 --> 00:15:13.120
And you're realizing that the only reason you're together trying to figure out how to work with one another in this way is you're trying to get somewhere which takes answers.
00:15:13.919 --> 00:15:17.840
You also say in the book that we thrive on questions.
00:15:18.000 --> 00:15:21.039
The human brain thrives on questions.
00:15:21.519 --> 00:15:23.039
Why is that?
00:15:23.679 --> 00:15:26.480
That is a very good question as to why it is.
00:15:26.720 --> 00:15:33.440
What I can tell you is that the research on this is across disciplines.
00:15:33.840 --> 00:15:47.919
So the belief is shared from anthropology to early childhood development to the study of creativity and more, that we are not just a questioning species, but we are born asking.
00:15:48.080 --> 00:15:53.039
So this is a, I think this is a really interesting, very simple, but really interesting distinction.
00:15:53.279 --> 00:16:00.240
Before we acquire language, which is how most of us think about questions, we're asking, how do I get fed?
00:16:00.480 --> 00:16:03.200
Where do I find a place that I can get rest?
00:16:03.440 --> 00:16:05.919
Who can I count on to give me those things?
00:16:06.159 --> 00:16:09.919
Is this space safe enough for me to play in, to figure things out?
00:16:10.080 --> 00:16:18.399
Before I ever utter a word, and we're questioning each in our own way, taking feedback in and continuing to question.
00:16:18.559 --> 00:16:22.240
This is what makes us a questioning species at our core.
00:16:22.399 --> 00:16:27.679
And when you look at the research, it says that up until about the age of five, that's how children operate.
00:16:27.840 --> 00:16:33.919
They have certain things that restrict them, whether it's their family life or it's communal things or it's teams that they're on.
00:16:34.080 --> 00:16:42.879
It's not until they get to their formal education, and particularly in public schools, that we start to put some rules around question asking.
00:16:43.039 --> 00:16:48.480
But from a birth, from an evolutionary standpoint, that's our survival tool.
00:16:48.720 --> 00:16:51.120
It's the thing that drives our curiosity.
00:16:51.279 --> 00:16:55.759
It's the thing that leads us to create, not just to be curious, but to make something.
00:16:55.919 --> 00:16:59.759
So it's there underneath all the other things that we would credit.
00:16:59.840 --> 00:17:03.039
And it doesn't go away, it just gets covered up.
00:17:03.519 --> 00:17:07.680
So it's really there as a fundamental feature of every one of us.
00:17:07.759 --> 00:17:10.480
It's just that many of us are out of practice in using it.
00:17:10.640 --> 00:17:16.960
Why wouldn't you use that most powerful tool that you rely on from the minute you come out into the world?
00:17:17.279 --> 00:17:27.200
Is it that we've been out of practice as a result of modern education, modern society, or has that happened over time as well, Larry?
00:17:27.279 --> 00:17:34.559
I'm just curious because there are a lot of different authors, many of them I respect, talk about the power of questioning.
00:17:34.720 --> 00:17:43.440
And everyone talks about how kids, they're always questioning, and then they get the wrong answer, and the teacher says this is the right answer, they stop questioning.
00:17:43.680 --> 00:17:47.200
So is it that education has taught us that or other things?
00:17:47.440 --> 00:17:50.799
Because you say our brain thrives on questions.
00:17:51.200 --> 00:17:59.039
What has taken it away from us in order for us to then dust it off and go back to the way we should be?
00:17:59.440 --> 00:18:02.160
So there are three things I want to touch on that you said.
00:18:02.319 --> 00:18:08.160
One is there is no one resource, place, or person to blame.
00:18:08.480 --> 00:18:11.359
So I would never say, oh, it's all about education.
00:18:11.599 --> 00:18:13.440
Education just beats this out of us.
00:18:13.680 --> 00:18:14.720
No, that's not true.
00:18:14.880 --> 00:18:30.880
And if you think about the typical public school, all the people who work in a school are meeting the requirements and the guidelines of other people, from a superintendent to parents who vote a certain way, a school board, whatever it is, even national standards.
00:18:31.039 --> 00:18:33.279
So they're trying to meet those things.
00:18:33.599 --> 00:18:37.200
When they teach, they're given a restriction on how they do that.
00:18:37.359 --> 00:18:44.079
You only have so many hours in a day, and your students must advance this far in this grade during this year to get to the next one.
00:18:44.240 --> 00:18:48.400
So even just in that one example, it's hard to point a finger at anybody.
00:18:48.480 --> 00:18:56.480
Even the people who are imposing the rules and the guidelines on a school, I think we can assume they're generally well intended.
00:18:56.799 --> 00:19:00.400
So we're trying to do multiple things as human beings.
00:19:00.559 --> 00:19:03.680
We're trying to advance and accomplish.
00:19:04.000 --> 00:19:12.960
When we go through one heck of a fight to do those things, we'd like to maintain the easier path we found through all the mistakes we made, right?
00:19:13.200 --> 00:19:24.160
We love it when things are quick, not just because we're lazy or we don't want to try something new, but it's an efficiency and it allows us to have room to pay attention to other things.
00:19:24.240 --> 00:19:34.720
And in an uncertain world, we feel it within us, this desire to be able to check certain things off, say, I'm certain about those, so I can focus on these things that are uncertain.
00:19:34.880 --> 00:19:41.680
So I would answer your question by saying the things that push us away from questions are also in our nature.
00:19:42.319 --> 00:20:06.960
But when you look at what questions do, not only for our day-to-day lives and our ability to move forward, but that they actually help the brain stay healthier and accomplish anything we're going to do, I think it's just a call to action to say we should use this capability more than we do and more freely than we do, but not to the exclusion of other things.
00:20:07.119 --> 00:20:10.000
It's back to that word you put out earlier, balance.
00:20:10.880 --> 00:20:15.359
I love your empathy, Larry, and the way we answered that question.
00:20:15.519 --> 00:20:29.440
In many respects, the restrictions we put, whether it's on teachers or the school board or whoever else, doesn't enable them to ask questions of why are we doing it this way?
00:20:29.759 --> 00:20:37.759
And in many respects, as you mentioned, we do want to add efficiencies and then we cut out the questioning.
00:20:38.160 --> 00:20:39.119
That's exactly right.
00:20:39.279 --> 00:20:50.880
So if you think about, I'm going to call it the modern corporate setting, and I'm going to give it a generous span in, say, the last 150 to 200 years, which is really quite generous, but let's call it that.
00:20:51.119 --> 00:20:54.720
That has leaned more and more towards efficiency.
00:20:54.880 --> 00:20:58.720
Not a bad thing, but more exclusively towards efficiency.
00:20:59.039 --> 00:21:06.240
The evolution in what's up here in our brains, we're talking hundreds of thousands of years.
00:21:06.480 --> 00:21:08.480
So it's pretty well set in there.
00:21:08.720 --> 00:21:37.119
And even though there is not absolute agreement across neuroscience of what's going on in the brain, there is wide and general agreement that the brain is at its best when it is in uncertain conditions, when things are complex, when it's solving, when it feels a sense that it needs to survive, when it is unrestricted, when it is growing in a discovery mode of wanting to find new things.
00:21:37.200 --> 00:21:38.960
This is just the science.
00:21:39.279 --> 00:21:49.039
But everything I just listed there is like a guidebook to say, oh my gosh, that's what we have to deal with in an uncertain world like the one we're living and working in right now.
00:21:49.279 --> 00:21:52.799
Oh, and that's what our brain is built to do.
00:21:53.599 --> 00:21:59.599
So for me, it's that recognition that says we should tap into that the best way.
00:22:00.319 --> 00:22:03.599
Possible to use questions to our advantage.
00:22:03.839 --> 00:22:06.960
These are not zero-sum choices.
00:22:07.200 --> 00:22:14.319
That we pick this new thing, this guy's coming along, another guy's coming along and saying how important questions are, and we chuck everything else.
00:22:14.400 --> 00:22:15.440
That's not it at all.
00:22:15.599 --> 00:22:29.599
It's just saying that the absence of that in today's work and environment and in an environment where AI is becoming much more part of the context and the texture of every work and environment, that's when we need questions most of all.
00:22:29.759 --> 00:22:33.119
And it's not to say, should we have AI or should we not have AI?
00:22:33.200 --> 00:22:39.839
It's to say, how do we make this partnership with this technology work the best way it can for what we're trying to accomplish?
00:22:40.079 --> 00:22:42.319
That's an example of the role of questions.
00:22:42.799 --> 00:22:47.200
So in order to do that, Larry, how should I start in this process?
00:22:47.680 --> 00:22:59.119
I think the first place that most leaders should start is to quietly observe, as a leader, whether or not questions are being asked in their organization.
00:22:59.599 --> 00:23:03.119
And if they are being asked, are they really questions?
00:23:03.440 --> 00:23:05.359
Or are they statements that are being made?
00:23:05.759 --> 00:23:06.799
I love the point you made.
00:23:07.039 --> 00:23:09.039
Whether questions are being asked.
00:23:09.200 --> 00:23:10.400
What types of questions?
00:23:10.640 --> 00:23:16.160
How do you know people are really asking questions in this organization?
00:23:16.720 --> 00:23:17.039
Sure.
00:23:17.200 --> 00:23:20.880
And that itself is a good question because there's a whole range, right?
00:23:21.039 --> 00:23:32.480
If you lay out a spectrum, as I do in the book, just for reference, this is not an absolute, but just to say where questions fall, there's a spectrum that runs from on one end what I call functional questions.
00:23:32.720 --> 00:23:34.000
What's for lunch?
00:23:34.240 --> 00:23:36.240
What will the numbers be next quarter?
00:23:36.559 --> 00:23:37.920
Did we hit them, right?
00:23:38.400 --> 00:23:42.400
There's a function to those questions that is really after an answer.
00:23:42.640 --> 00:23:48.400
And then that question is has less return that you get from it once it's been answered.
00:23:48.480 --> 00:23:49.440
That's on the functional end.
00:23:49.759 --> 00:23:53.519
Then there are these, I call on the other end of the spectrum, great questions.
00:23:53.839 --> 00:23:54.640
They're bigger.
00:23:54.799 --> 00:23:57.920
They're more related to your vision for the organization.
00:23:58.240 --> 00:24:00.400
They even start to touch on strategy.
00:24:00.559 --> 00:24:02.160
They're certainly there in the mission.
00:24:02.240 --> 00:24:09.039
They're open-ended in a way because you find, you say, this is the hill I want to take, this is what I want to accomplish.
00:24:09.200 --> 00:24:17.680
And then you start asking some functional questions about how do I do it in the immediate, but you're always returning to that longer-term view and that longer-term path.
00:24:18.000 --> 00:24:22.559
Then there's the stuff in the middle, and I call it the messy middle.
00:24:22.720 --> 00:24:29.680
And the kind of questions that reside in the messy middle are not just ones that aren't functional or aren't great.
00:24:29.839 --> 00:24:32.160
They're questions that have not been thought about.
00:24:32.799 --> 00:24:42.960
So because we don't know if we're using questions in a functional way or we're stretching for something greater, and we just don't take the time to ask, is that why we're asking?
00:24:43.200 --> 00:24:47.680
We never place them on the right path so that they can have the greatest return for us.
00:24:47.839 --> 00:24:56.400
So this is why I say even observing whether or not you're asking questions and then observing where they fit on that spectrum tells you a lot.
00:24:56.559 --> 00:25:06.720
A lot of leaders will look at the questions that are being asked, they'll see that questions are being asked, place them on that spectrum, and see that not many great questions are being asked, right?
00:25:06.880 --> 00:25:08.240
They're all about the function.
00:25:08.400 --> 00:25:11.279
In a world that's ever changing, that's a pretty dangerous thing.
00:25:11.519 --> 00:25:16.799
The second thing a leader can look for without ever opening their mouth is who's asking?
00:25:17.119 --> 00:25:23.440
Is everybody invited to ask, or is that limited to the C-suite or certain leadership or just the managers?
00:25:23.599 --> 00:25:35.839
Or does it radiate all the way down to the people who touch the product or the service or the customers most directly and probably have some pretty interesting insights that we all should be asking questions about?
00:25:36.000 --> 00:25:39.039
So these observations of are you asking at all?
00:25:39.279 --> 00:25:41.200
What kinds of questions are being asked?
00:25:41.440 --> 00:25:42.640
Who's asking them?
00:25:42.799 --> 00:25:45.680
And then underneath that, what's the origin story of all that?
00:25:45.759 --> 00:25:50.400
Do we have a culture that basically says, without saying it, you're not allowed to ask?
00:25:50.640 --> 00:25:58.480
Or do we have a culture on the other end that says, I truly want you to be innovative, even if it turns the place upside down while you're doing that?
00:25:58.640 --> 00:26:00.240
Or is it somewhere in between?
00:26:00.480 --> 00:26:08.240
Just those alone tell an individual leader where questions fit in their organization.
00:26:08.720 --> 00:26:10.319
And that's really the answer.
00:26:10.480 --> 00:26:14.559
Because if I was to sit here and say, here's how everybody starts, right?
00:26:14.799 --> 00:26:20.720
And this is the path you have to follow after that, it shows that I don't know very much about questions.
00:26:20.880 --> 00:26:27.920
But if you approach it in the way that I'm suggesting, I think you can learn a lot about what you know, what you don't know, and what you could do.
00:26:28.720 --> 00:26:38.079
Now, would that gauge be different, Larry, with respect to the type of organization or industry, or do you see it being relevant in all types of organizations?
00:26:38.400 --> 00:26:45.200
I think you could pick an organization or an industry where let's just say things don't change a lot.
00:26:45.440 --> 00:26:48.160
It doesn't mean they don't change at all.
00:26:48.720 --> 00:26:52.960
Our tendency is to say, oh gosh, we're an amazingly innovative organization.
00:26:53.119 --> 00:27:00.160
We should be asking all the time and really pushing that, or on the other extreme, no, we're pretty predictable and we should be pushing towards efficiency.
00:27:00.319 --> 00:27:14.160
So it's not that those statements are completely wrong, but they say something about the proportion of question question asking that you do and the way you ask questions rather than whether they should be there or not be there, if that makes sense.
00:27:14.400 --> 00:27:21.440
So I think that does shift across organizations and appropriately, and you mentioned AI in that.
00:27:21.759 --> 00:27:26.880
The role of AI in any organization shifts in a similar way.
00:27:27.119 --> 00:27:28.160
It's a tool.
00:27:28.400 --> 00:27:36.960
It can be a partnering tool, but it's not going to mean the same thing in every organization or in any moment in time.
00:27:37.119 --> 00:27:42.960
It's a tool that needs to be constantly referenced again to say, what is it we want this to do?
00:27:43.119 --> 00:27:44.799
How do we want it to help us?
00:27:45.039 --> 00:27:48.000
How do we as humans want to interact with it?
00:27:48.079 --> 00:27:51.680
And does that still fit the assumptions and circumstances we're in?
00:27:51.839 --> 00:27:53.359
Or do we need to change something?
00:27:53.519 --> 00:27:56.799
That's not really new to leadership or management or anything else.
00:27:56.960 --> 00:27:59.839
It's just a new thing we're asking those questions about.
00:28:00.160 --> 00:28:03.920
So it takes that intellectual humility we've touched on a couple of times.
00:28:04.000 --> 00:28:09.519
And I think the more experience we gain, the older we get, the higher up people move into organizations.
00:28:10.400 --> 00:28:14.880
We do accumulate a certain amount of expertise, knowledge, understanding.
00:28:15.039 --> 00:28:26.319
It becomes harder to maintain that intellectual humility that is required for the right types of questions for us to ask.
00:28:26.559 --> 00:28:28.240
How do you do that, Larry?
00:28:28.400 --> 00:28:33.759
You are brilliant, author of many books, Fulbright scholar, you name it.
00:28:34.079 --> 00:28:38.000
How do you maintain intellectual humility?
00:28:39.279 --> 00:28:41.359
Thank you for those very nice compliments.
00:28:41.519 --> 00:28:49.599
But I will tell you that the more projects I get into, like the ones you described, really the more I understand that I don't know.
00:28:49.839 --> 00:28:51.279
And I like to learn.
00:28:51.519 --> 00:28:55.680
So having that base, I feel, is a bit of an advantage that I like to learn.
00:28:55.839 --> 00:29:09.039
Here's a second thing that I use as a way to practice intellectual humility, and that is to understand that there's a difference between humility as we usually think about it and intellectual humility.
00:29:09.519 --> 00:29:18.160
So humility is really, it really involves an ability to see your current limitations in this situation and this moment.
00:29:18.240 --> 00:29:20.240
It's very now focused.
00:29:20.400 --> 00:29:26.640
And we think of that as humbling in the sense of almost yielding or giving up in the bad sense.
00:29:26.880 --> 00:29:34.960
Intellectual humility focuses on knowledge, beliefs, intelligence, things that are bigger than this moment.
00:29:35.119 --> 00:29:45.680
And so one of the ways that I think about intellectual humility and try to embrace it more often is to say, what is this moment telling me about how I think overall?
00:29:45.839 --> 00:29:49.839
What is this moment telling me about what this moment might mean in the future?
00:29:50.000 --> 00:29:51.759
And its reference points to the past.
00:29:51.920 --> 00:30:11.440
So it's even just that distinction between humility, which we think of as meekness, and intellectual humility, which is more growth mindset, is a distinguishing factor that I think we free ourselves to practice more intellectual humility that way rather than saying, oh my God, that's a form of humility.
00:30:11.519 --> 00:30:12.720
I got to get away from it.
00:30:12.880 --> 00:30:18.319
But let me give you a couple of others that I found very interesting from some of the interviews I did.
00:30:18.559 --> 00:30:30.240
One person I spoke with talked about how her signal to herself to regain intellectual humility as a priority is to quiet her cleverness.
00:30:30.880 --> 00:30:38.400
So it is this acknowledgement that she is unbelievably clever and smart and accomplished and everything else.
00:30:38.960 --> 00:30:46.079
But the way she can stay achieving at that level is to quiet her cleverness.
00:30:46.319 --> 00:30:51.200
A second person I talked to said, I try to listen atmospherically.
00:30:51.440 --> 00:31:00.079
And I love that because it says instead of in a QA exchange where I'm typically waiting for an answer, I ask you a question and I'm waiting for an answer.
00:31:00.160 --> 00:31:05.279
Or I ask you a question and whatever your answer is, I'm trying to move on to my next question.
00:31:05.920 --> 00:31:10.000
Listening atmospherically is like taking in those five C's.
00:31:10.079 --> 00:31:13.359
What is the context in which we're saying these things to one another?
00:31:13.519 --> 00:31:15.039
What am I trying to connect this to?
00:31:15.200 --> 00:31:16.880
What could I connect it to?
00:31:17.039 --> 00:31:23.440
So I love that concept of am I listening atmospherically or am I listening in a very narrow, typical way?
00:31:23.599 --> 00:31:28.880
And I'll give you one more, and that is to decolonize our thinking.
00:31:29.759 --> 00:31:36.640
We don't realize how quickly we get down a path to thinking within boundaries.
00:31:36.880 --> 00:31:39.599
It's not a totally bad thing.
00:31:39.759 --> 00:31:45.920
It's just something that needs to happen and then needs to open up and then needs to happen again and needs to open up.
00:31:46.000 --> 00:31:55.359
And when we don't have those opening up intervals, we colonize, we become very close to our thoughts and we put boundaries around them.
00:31:55.519 --> 00:32:12.480
So if you decolonize your thinking, as somebody else I spoke with said, you're allowing yourself to move beyond the boundaries, beyond the rules, the plans, even the results that you've had, not necessarily to change, but to see where there is opportunity to change or to do better.
00:32:12.640 --> 00:32:13.039
That's it.
00:32:13.119 --> 00:32:22.960
And if you think of all three of those things, quieting your cleverness, listening atmospherically, and decolonizing your thinking, you're just playing around.
00:32:23.119 --> 00:32:26.000
Nobody has asked you to change anything.
00:32:26.160 --> 00:32:31.039
You're just trying out new ways to see the world and to see your own thoughts.
00:32:31.279 --> 00:32:33.279
That's intellectual humility.
00:32:34.319 --> 00:32:37.519
What a beautiful way to frame it.
00:32:37.759 --> 00:32:47.359
Because before we follow your framework asking questions, we really need to open up and have that intellectual humility.
00:32:48.160 --> 00:32:48.640
Exactly.
00:32:48.799 --> 00:32:50.559
So this is an interesting thing.
00:32:50.799 --> 00:32:54.720
That the art of the ask is an overlay to anything else you're doing.
00:32:54.880 --> 00:32:56.400
It's not a replacement.
00:32:56.799 --> 00:33:02.400
So you asked me the question about how does a leader, CEO, whoever it might be, begin to do this.
00:33:02.640 --> 00:33:09.200
And I was thinking at the time about Danny Warshe, his book, which is See Solve Scale.
00:33:09.839 --> 00:33:12.720
And it's a Bible-like book for entrepreneurs.
00:33:13.039 --> 00:33:18.640
Danny is a multi-time serial entrepreneur, like successful entrepreneur.
00:33:18.799 --> 00:33:24.079
And he started the institution at Brown University for entrepreneurship.
00:33:24.240 --> 00:33:26.799
So he's seen it from a lot of different angles.
00:33:27.039 --> 00:33:32.880
So Danny has a way that he encourages entrepreneurs to think about how they build their business.
00:33:33.039 --> 00:33:37.440
This is something that a leader in any position with any type of organization has to think about.
00:33:37.680 --> 00:33:41.359
And so he boils it down to a framework that has four components.
00:33:41.680 --> 00:33:43.039
Digest, right?
00:33:43.200 --> 00:33:51.039
You take whatever's in front of you, the opportunity, the threat, the culture that exists, the culture that you want, and you digest what's there first.
00:33:51.200 --> 00:33:53.119
That's a big question-asking thing.
00:33:53.279 --> 00:33:54.960
Then the second step is to aim it.
00:33:55.039 --> 00:34:03.599
Whatever I've taken in, where do I aim it towards something I can build on when it comes back as something that's worth pursuing, which sometimes that takes a while?
00:34:03.839 --> 00:34:06.480
The third thing I want to do is embed the behavior, right?
00:34:06.559 --> 00:34:12.719
If I digested that this is the right thing to aim at and the way I'm doing it is working, I want that to become a behavior.
00:34:12.880 --> 00:34:16.559
And ultimately the fourth step is to establish a new norm.
00:34:16.960 --> 00:34:20.639
So what I'm doing is I'm just giving you another framework, right?
00:34:20.880 --> 00:34:24.639
And I'm not saying that's better or worse than the art of the ask.
00:34:24.719 --> 00:34:26.800
What I'm saying is the two things go together.
00:34:27.039 --> 00:34:32.239
And any leader can say, gosh, I work off this framework, whether it's loose or firm.
00:34:32.480 --> 00:34:33.679
The answer is good.
00:34:33.840 --> 00:34:38.239
Begin with that and overlay the art of the ask on it.
00:34:38.719 --> 00:34:46.239
That is more likely to get you to see the truth and then to make the kind of changes you need to make that are the valuable ones we want to make.
00:34:46.559 --> 00:34:54.239
And in doing that, I want to wrap up with one thing that's been on my mind a lot as well, Larry.
00:34:54.559 --> 00:34:59.119
You mentioned that our brain treats open questions like a batch file.
00:34:59.280 --> 00:35:00.960
And I love that analogy.
00:35:01.599 --> 00:35:10.079
And therefore, the power of even asking ourselves better questions.
00:35:10.480 --> 00:35:10.800
Yeah.
00:35:11.039 --> 00:35:16.320
So I think of it as your R-O-R, your return on reflection.
00:35:16.880 --> 00:35:21.599
Because typically, when you're asking yourself questions, you're asking reflective questions.
00:35:21.760 --> 00:35:27.280
They might be directed towards something, so we think of them more in those terms, but they typically are reflective.
00:35:27.519 --> 00:35:32.559
And I would start by saying there are those who don't do that, right?
00:35:32.800 --> 00:35:37.840
They probably have experience that it works, but they don't do it as a habit or as a practice.
00:35:38.000 --> 00:35:39.360
That's a good place to begin.
00:35:39.599 --> 00:35:46.239
The second thing, which is even more powerful, is when we reflect on something, we tend to look backwards, just like AI.
00:35:46.480 --> 00:35:53.280
We tend to look back and reflect on what's happened and learn the better lesson in that context that's already occurred.
00:35:53.440 --> 00:35:55.679
But reflection can happen forward too.
00:35:55.920 --> 00:36:01.039
It's a training ground for doing things in the future and hopefully doing things more efficiently.
00:36:01.199 --> 00:36:06.960
And then when you expand that and into an exchange with others, you amplify that reflection.
00:36:07.199 --> 00:36:14.480
So it's one of those ways that we can start personally, amplify what we do personally, and then connect it to other people.
00:36:14.639 --> 00:36:18.719
And I think that's always the best individual exercise.
00:36:19.119 --> 00:36:20.639
It is a powerful exercise.
00:36:20.800 --> 00:36:26.239
And I have to tell you, it's been on my mind the past few weeks after I read your book.
00:36:26.400 --> 00:36:31.199
You've all known Harari, he is a tiny bit dystopian on AI.
00:36:31.599 --> 00:36:42.559
And he talks about how his concern is when AI gets to know us better than we know ourselves, and how it will therefore be able to manipulate us.
00:36:42.960 --> 00:37:02.320
On the other end of it, if we are able to ask ourselves deeper and better questions, we will also get to know ourselves better, achieving part of what Harari says we need to be able to do in order to have more control of our own judgment rather than AI.
00:37:02.639 --> 00:37:04.800
Yeah, I really love the way you summarize that.
00:37:04.960 --> 00:37:07.119
And I'd summarize it down to one word.
00:37:07.199 --> 00:37:08.480
It's a choice.
00:37:08.960 --> 00:37:11.440
So it's not a lack of ability.
00:37:11.599 --> 00:37:14.320
It's not even a lack of know-how about what to do.
00:37:14.480 --> 00:37:26.079
If you don't like my guidelines in my book, there are others out there that encourage you to ask questions, but you have this choice to ask, to reflect, and to build your knowledge of yourself.
00:37:26.320 --> 00:37:33.599
AI isn't going to replace us without us choosing to allow it to replace us.
00:37:33.760 --> 00:37:35.199
That's the ultimate takeaway.
00:37:35.440 --> 00:37:37.920
So I think we have a little bit of a job to do.
00:37:38.239 --> 00:37:38.880
We do.
00:37:39.119 --> 00:37:45.519
And learning how to ask better questions becomes an essential part of that, Larry.
00:37:45.679 --> 00:37:52.639
So for the audience to follow you, your work, and find your book, where would you send them to, Larry?
00:37:53.039 --> 00:37:54.159
I appreciate you're asking.
00:37:54.320 --> 00:37:56.800
So the book can be found virtually anywhere.
00:37:56.960 --> 00:38:03.920
But if you go to my website, LR, those are my initials, Larry Robertson, lrspeaks.com.
00:38:04.079 --> 00:38:08.639
You can learn about the book, me, get the book, and everything else you probably want.
00:38:09.599 --> 00:38:19.679
I so appreciate you, Larry, and your book, Great Question, The Art of the Ask, and Getting More of What You Really Want.
00:38:19.840 --> 00:38:23.280
Thank you so much for joining me in this conversation, Larry Robertson.
00:38:23.519 --> 00:38:26.239
Thank you for the invitation and the great questions.
00:38:27.679 --> 00:38:31.920
You have been listening to partnering leadership with your host, Mahan Tavakoli.
00:38:32.559 --> 00:38:48.079
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00:38:48.320 --> 00:38:54.480
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