Kris Kobach on In-State Tuition for Illegal Immigrants and Noncitizen Voting

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Welcome to Parsing Immigration Policy, the podcast of the Center
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for Immigration Studies. My name is Mark Krikorian, Executive Director
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of the Center. And today we have a returning guest.
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We're very proud to have with us the Attorney General
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of the State of Kansas, Chris Kobach. And the reason
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we're having him on is there's a news hook to this,
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and that is that recently there was a lawsuit where
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a federal judge struck down a Kansas law that gave
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in-state tuition to illegal immigrants. And I wanted to talk
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about that and kind of the broader issue of in-state
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tuition for illegals as well, kind of the principle behind it,
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what have you. So Chris, thanks for joining us. So
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what's the kind of, give us the background of what
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happened with this in-state tuition lawsuit.
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Who is suing whom? Okay. Yeah, sure. Well, and as
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you know, Mark, I've been involved in this issue for
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more than 20 years as an attorney in private practice
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in 2004. I brought a lawsuit on behalf of out-of-state
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students attending Kansas University and Kansas State University to stop
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Kansas' new policy adopted in 2004 of giving in-state tuition
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to illegal aliens. The federal district court said that we
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did not have standing because the out-of-state students would still
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be paying non-resident tuition even if we won the case.
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So therefore, the court could not grant relief. Which is
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not a crazy outcome. And indeed, other courts throughout the
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country found that it was equally difficult for U.S. citizens
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to challenge the more than a dozen states that adopted
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in the 2002 through 2006 period, adopted laws giving in-state
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tuition rates to illegal aliens.
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But isn't there a federal requirement there as well?
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Right. So all of these suits were, well, almost all
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these suits were brought in federal court. There was a
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federal statute that was passed as part of the IRA,
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the Illegal Immigration Reform and Immigrant Responsibility Act of 1996.
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And that statute is found at Title VIII, Section 1623
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of the United States Code. And it's a short extended sentence.
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And it simply says, no state can grant in so
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many words, resident tuition rates to an alien unlawfully present
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in the United States, unless it gives the same tuition
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rate to every U.S. citizen in the country. And Congress
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in the hearings and in the congressional record said, the
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reason we're doing this is we want to stop states
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giving in-state tuition to illegal aliens. And at that point
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in 1996, I think the only state that was openly
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considering it was California. Right. So anyway, it's very clear
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you can't do it. So when I brought that lawsuit
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as a private attorney against the state of Kansas, the
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judge said, well, you don't have standing. You might be right,
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but you don't have standing. OK, so fast forward in
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lawsuits in Texas and in other places usually came to
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the same result. There are a few outliers, but none
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of them held that the none of the suits in
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federal court held that students had standing to challenge this.
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Fast forward, the Trump administration comes into office for the
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second time. And the new Trump DOJ is well aware
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of this issue, is well aware that the only party
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who has standing to stop these illegal state laws is
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the United States government itself. And so they began suing
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the various states that have adopted this policy. Now, there's
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one more thing that listeners should know about, and that is...
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why did the states do this? Now, some of them
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were just liberal states, states that wanted to give all
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kinds of benefits to illegal immigrants. But states like Kansas
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and Nebraska were sold a bill of goods by lobbyists
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for illegal immigration who came in and said, hey, Congress
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is about to pass the DREAM Act. And this DREAM
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Act is going to get rid of the old 1996
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law and is going to give a pathway to citizenship
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to all of these illegal aliens attending high schools and
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universities in America. And so you should just pass a
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state law giving them in-state tuition as well. That was
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the bill of goods that was falsely offered to the states.
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They went ahead and passed their in-state tuition laws. But
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of course, the DREAM Act never passed in Congress. And
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so you have these blatantly illegal laws on the books. Anyway,
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fast forward, Trump's DOJ over the course of the past
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12 months has started suing state after state after state.
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And in many cases, like in Kansas, as an attorney general,
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I'd already issued an opinion saying this is a law
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that is clearly in violation of federal law. It cannot
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stand if it is ever challenged in court by a
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party that has standing. And that's exactly what happened. Kansas
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was not the first. We were probably about the seventh
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state that was challenged. I had hoped that our legislature
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would just fix the situation. I warned them earlier this
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year that a suit is likely coming. And we had
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a majority of the Republican legislature vote to repeal the
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in-state tuition provision, giving that benefit to illegal aliens. But
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we didn't have the supermajority because we have a Democrat
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governor who vetoed it. Interesting.
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Just to interrupt you, this is sort of a technical question,
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but I think it's important. Why does the DOJ have standing?
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Yeah, because the Department of Justice has authority to enforce
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federal law. And so it's federal law that's being violated.
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The DOJ United States government's constitutional authority is being checked
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by a state, which is clearly under the supremacy clause.
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The federal law under our constitution prevails over state law,
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assuming the feds have power in this area, which they do.
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And yeah, so they are an injured party. They are
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the only injured party, apparently, who can write this wrong.
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So is the provision say that the states just can't
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do it? Or that they would be denied certain funding
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if they did it because that's often the tool that
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the feds use.
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No, it's not a use of the spending power denying funding.
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It just says no state shall. Interesting. Okay. Back in
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the 90s, Congress thought correctly, if you pass a federal
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law saying the states can't do something, they won't do it.
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But that was 30 years ago.
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Now who's being naive, Kay?
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Yeah, exactly. So, you know, we have all these states,
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especially these hardcore leftist states that are just, you know,
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they just don't care. They will defy the federal government
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whenever they think it's politically expedient.
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And so this was part of the whole Dream Act push, right?
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In other words, you specifically referred to that. But I mean,
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that's kind of the political background of it is they
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were trying to do this Because they were, you know,
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using the kind of sympathetic young people who brought grown
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up in the United States and all of that.
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Exactly. Yeah. And, you know, you think about it so
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much has been, you know, of course, the DACA program
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started by President Obama. And all of these things are
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all based on this, you know, sympathetic, hypothetical, illegal alien who,
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you know, came here through no will of his own. Right. Etcetera.
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But anyway, it was blatantly illegal and frankly immoral or
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I think really bad policy because never should a US citizen,
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even if he comes from the neighboring state, never should
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a US citizen pay three times as much in tuition
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than an illegal alien, nevermind the fact that it breaks
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federal law for a state to do this. So anyway,
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Kansas is one of several states that was sued in
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2026 by the Trump administration. The interesting posture of this
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is normally, you know, an attorney general might have a
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duty to defend a state statute in this situation. However,
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there is a futility doctrine in federal courts. And that
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is when it's, when it is obvious that the state
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is violating the constitution or federal law, then it is
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futile to defend it. And not only does an attorney
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general not have a duty to defend a statute that
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is indefensible, the governor, the Democrat governor tried to intervene
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and defend this statute. And the court said, that based
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on the futility doctrine, she could not intervene and try
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to defend it either. An analogy might be if a
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state had a statute on the books that, you know,
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discriminated on the basis of race and said members of
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one race are eligible to be on the state commission,
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but members of another race are not eligible. And that is,
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by the way, not a purely hypothetical example.
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Right.
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And so that would be indefensible as well. Every attorney
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who has kept up this constitutional law.
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Just on that point, is there Kansas law that would
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have required you to defend it?
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No, there's no Kansas law. It's just sort of generally
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a tradition that normally in 99% of the cases, an
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attorney general would defend a state statute. But when a
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statute is clearly, there's no good argument, at least in
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the Kansas statute. It was obviously facially violating federal law.
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And the judge found that. The federal judge, she ruled that, yeah,
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this thing. And she went through looking at the text
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of the federal law and the state statute. So it
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is obviously in violation of the law. It would be
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futile to attempt to defend it. And the governor may
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not attempt to defend it either.
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Who are the lawyers who showed up on the other side?
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I mean, if it wasn't you, and I assume it
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wasn't the solicitor general of the state or something. In
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other words, did the state universities hire a lawyer who showed.
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Up in court? Well, it was all done on the briefs.
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So I see.
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OK, well, who wrote the briefs?
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The counsel for the governor wrote some of the briefs,
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and there was also a private organization representing some of
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the illegal aliens who were getting in-state tuition. They also
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attempted to intervene, and the judge denied them intervention as well. Again,
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on the grounds that it would be futile, the judge
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went through, looked at the statute, said this is obviously
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in conflict. It would be futile to defend this. Yeah. Interesting.
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So you won at the district court level, right? In
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other words, the DOJ won, basically.
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Yeah. And I don't think there's likely to be any
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appeal on this. We haven't heard. And indeed, to do that,
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the governor or the private organization would have to overcome
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the fact that they were denied intervention too. So they
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would have to win that they get to intervene and
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they would have to win on the merits, which is
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highly unlikely given how obviously it is that the Kansas
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law violates the federal law.
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So you said a number of other states that had,
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you know, the cases had moved along with regard to
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a number of other states. Have you followed like how
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the progress of that has gone?
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Yeah. So, you know, for example, some of the earlier
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states that were sued, Texas, was sued and acknowledged. The
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Texas Attorney General's Office acknowledged that their law was in
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violation of federal law. Kentucky was sued, and the Kentucky
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Attorney General similarly acknowledged that their law was obviously in
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violation of federal law. But in some of the states,
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the blue states, the Attorney General tried to mount a
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defense with varying success. In Minnesota, at least at the
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district court level, although I think that's going to change
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on the appellate, the the Minnesota district judge said that
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the Minnesota law could survive. However, the Minnesota law is
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different in its wording and doesn't include some obviously illegal
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slash unconstitutional provisions like the Kansas and Texas laws do.
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And so it was a different law, but Minnesota is
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still in flux. Virginia, as we've been discussing, is also
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in flux. But I think at the end of the day,
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there might be one or two of these laws that
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were drafted craftily enough to avoid smacking into the federal statute.
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But the vast majority, if not all of them, will
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be struck down either by the district court or on appeal.
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And I don't want to get too much into the
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wording of the different statutes, but there is some sophistry here.
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In other words, some of them have tried to kind
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of dance around and say that It's not based on
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the residency of the illegal immigrant. It's based on whether
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they've gone to high school in the state and even
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if they lived in another state. In other words, there
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are games like that some of the states have played.
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Are there not?
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Yeah, all of them play that initial game. They all
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play the game. Well, it's based on whether you attend
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high school or attending high school is a criterion in
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addition to being a resident of the state. But for example,
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in Kansas, the way the statute was worded is basically
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as follows. If you attend high school in our state,
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you will be deemed a resident for the purposes of
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college tuition. So they still hinge it on residents. The
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Kansas one, obviously, even though they tried to sort of
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dodge the federal statute, obviously, it is unconstitutional and in
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violation of the federal statute. Interesting.
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Now, if one or two states do win Doesn't mean
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this is kind of speculation to the future. What does
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that suggest about other blue states that have lost? It
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seems to me if I were those guys, I would
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call them up and say, OK, what was the exact
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wording of your statute? And let's repass the law with
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that wording.
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See what I mean?
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So in other words, a certain whack-a-mole element to this,
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is there not?
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There could be. If blue states that have lost to
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the Department of Justice want to try to do a
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carbon copy of another state that won, Of course, remember,
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these states are in different federal circuits, and just because
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a state prevails somewhere doesn't mean that a state across
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the country is going to have the same lock in
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front of a circuit court.
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And this isn't the kind of thing that would get
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to the Supreme Court necessarily, is it? Because there's different
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wordings for each state law, so a circuit split isn't
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really meaningful in the same way, or am I misunderstanding that?
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No, I think you're probably right. I also, you know,
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the Supreme Court looks for circuit splits on the same
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statute or virtually the same statute. Right. You know, I
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think also that the Supreme Court might look at the
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landscape and say, OK, you know, let's let's imagine a
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dozen states have been sued and 10 out of 12
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have already acknowledged, you know, it's been settled that they
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were violation of federal law and the offending state law
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is repealed. The Supreme Court might say, well, there's only
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two states in the country that are at stake at
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this point. We might– we don't want to weigh in.
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The Supreme Court is always looking to add value and
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they're very parsimonious in when they decide to grant cert
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and hear a case.
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This is only so many hours in a day, right?
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Yeah.
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Interesting. And so to get a little sort of 30,000 feet-ish,
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why wouldn't we give in-state tuition to illegal aliens? I
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mean I'm against it too, but I mean I think
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it's something that's worth– kind of explaining rather than just
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sort of assuming people know why, you know?
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Well, I'll give you the numbers in Kansas. So to
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go to Kansas university tuition alone, if you're a resident
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in state tuition is about $ 11, 000 a year.
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Okay.
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And if you're a non-resident, it's about $ 31, 000 a year.
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And so almost three times as much. And you're basically
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treating a U.S. citizen who might live just one mile
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over the border differently than you're treating them worse than
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an illegal alien who actually has no right to even
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be at the university because they're not supposed to be
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in the country. So it's the principle of always treating U.S.
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citizens at least equally, but certainly not worse. Yes, you
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should treat U.S. citizens worse. I mean, this is, you know,
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this is philosophically and just as a You know, a
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principle of common sense, a country should treat its own
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citizens better than it treats both legal and illegal aliens, frankly,
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in terms of benefits. I mean, there are some areas
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where legal aliens and U.S. citizens must be treated the
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same under law. But in terms of handing out a goodie,
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you would not treat illegal aliens better than U.S. citizens.
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So anyway, that's the principle. I mean, the amount of
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money is not insignificant as well. In Kansas, you know,
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the law was in place for 22 years. You know,
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in any given year, there would be between 300 and
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400 illegal aliens, you know, using this benefit and the
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taxpayers pay for it. So you're talking about, you know,
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an extra, you know, the taxpayer footing the bill for
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whatever it is. Back then, it wouldn't have been a $ 20, 000 Delta.
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It might have been, you know, a $ 15, 000 Delta or
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a $ 10, 000 Delta. But whatever, the taxpayers, you know, paying $ 15, 000
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for 300 people.
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Right.
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It's not insignificant. So there's that factor, too.
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And it seems to me even there's a kind of,
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I mean, it's a philosophical issue, but it's almost like
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a constitutional, not in the suspense of the wording of
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the Constitution. But the question is, Constitution starts, we the
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people of the United States.
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Well, who are we the people?
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I mean, this push is driven by this idea that
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legal status doesn't matter, that we the people is just
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sort of anybody who's here. And that's what's so insidious
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about it to me. And I think Yeah, the money
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is relevant. I mean obviously it's a million here, a
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million there. It begins to add up to real money
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as they say in Congress. But actually now they say
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a trillion here and a trillion there. But the principle
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isn't the money even if there were no cost to it.
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It seems to me the idea of trying to blur
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the difference between who is permitted to be here and
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who isn't and whether we through our national legislature are
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even allowed to make that decision. really just seems just
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preposterous that we would allow such a thing.
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Yeah. And I would add also that, look, this benefit
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is not a small thing. There are millions of United
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States citizens right now who are either parents or students
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about to go to college who are wringing their hands
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and trying to figure out how they're going to pay
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for college. Because as everybody knows, tuition at universities has
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not been rising at the it has been tripling, quadrupling
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the rate of inflation. And so when you're talking about
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one year of college costing the same as a small house,
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you have people who are saying, you know what, I
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can't afford it, or I'm going to try to go
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to a community college and see if I can get
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my education that way. People are, and I say this
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as a father of five daughters, one of who's finished
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college and one who's in college, and I've got three
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more to go. This is This is a real expenditure
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that many Americans are sacrificing and they are taking their
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second choice for. And so it is a huge insult
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in this environment to then give in-state tuition rates that
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we taxpayers pay for to give them to illegal aliens.
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And I would add one more thing, Mark. On top
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of all these other reasons we've just mentioned, there's the
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incentive problem. And Congress said this back in 1996. We
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do not want to encourage illegal aliens to come to
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or to remain in the United States by giving them
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valuable public benefits. And that's following federal law, Title VIII, U.S.
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Code 1601. It explains what Congress was thinking. And this
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is a huge incentive to stay if you can get
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this massive subsidized benefit of in-state tuition if you're here illegally. Absolutely.
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You were, for a number of years, Secretary of State
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of Kansas. which at the state level, what that means
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usually is overseeing elections. And depending on the state, they
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do some other things too. Now you're Attorney General, but
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presumably you still have a role in policing voting fraud
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and that sort of thing. And this is something you've
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been involved in pretty high profile way for a long time,
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even before you were Attorney General. So What's the situation
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in Kansas with regard to non-citizen voting or related issues?
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Yeah. So I'm glad you mentioned that I was Secretary
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of State because that has a bearing on the question.
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Back in 2015, as Secretary of State, I proposed a
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statute that would allow either the Secretary of State or
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the Attorney General's office to prosecute election crimes in Kansas.
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Prior to 2015, only county attorneys could do that. And
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county attorneys... generally have little experience or expertise in election law.
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They have never prosecuted a case like that before. They
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are swamped with other stuff that's higher priority like rapes
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and assaults and homicides. And so they don't do it.
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So anyway, we passed that law in Kansas and I
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began using that law as Secretary of State. But now
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as Attorney General, we have been finally able to get
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information from the federal government that was not available 10
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years ago. And that information is we can now run
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our voter rolls or names on our voter rolls against
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the federal databases of known aliens in the United States.
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And we have found a significant number of aliens who
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are voting, not just registering. There's a huge number who
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are registered. But there's a large number who are both
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registered and voting in the state. And as Attorney General,
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I've already... prosecuted four people. Three cases were already pled
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to a conviction. One case is still in the mix
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and we have more cases in the hopper that are
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going to be filed as well. So it's a very
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common thing for, you know, and people say, well, that's
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just four cases so far. Well, the reason it's just
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four is again, back to the issue of capacity. You know,
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we have only so many attorneys in the attorney general's
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office and each of these cases needs to be It
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doesn't just sort of present itself on paper. You have
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to assemble all the evidence. You've got to speak with
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all the counties and get the documents, the signed poll
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books where the person signed in saying that they were
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going to vote. When they registered to vote, you've got
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to get the signed document where they swore falsely that
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they were a United States citizen. Of course, you have
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to be to vote in virtually all the states of
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the union. So anyway, the four cases so far are
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the slam dunks where it's the easiest. And there are
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many more slam dunks in the hopper. But the point is,
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we are talking about, you know, I don't know what
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the total number is in Kansas, but it's certainly in
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the hundreds. If you're talking about people who are registered,
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who are not U.S. citizens, not registered and voting, the
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number is likely over a thousand. But the reason we're
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able to prosecute them now and couldn't prosecute them as
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easily before is we now have the federal databases that
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we can look into. And the Trump administration has finally
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got that done in the second term. The first Trump
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administration was asked by many states, Kansas included, and unable
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to deliver, or they ran out of time, I guess,
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to deliver. Now they're delivering and allowing us to utilize
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those databases.
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And you were involved in the commission on election integrity
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during Trump 1. Was that one of the things you
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were looking into, that ability to access?
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Absolutely. Absolutely. I had meetings with the president on that
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very issue. Yeah, I was the head of that commission
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in 2017. And as we were looking at different forms
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of fraudulent voting, that was one of the big ones.
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And that was one of the things the commission was
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investigating and trying to find the obvious solution to was
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letting the states have access to that information.
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One question in this regard that's always kind of interested
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me is that, as you suggested, the number of non-citizens
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who are registered is larger than the number who are voting.
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And my sense has always been that some of that,
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is inadvertent, driven by the motor voter law at the
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federal level, where when you get a driver's license, they're
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required to give you information or paperwork or whatever on
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registering to vote. And I suspect that some people, you know,
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I mean, not everybody has graduate degrees. You know, it's like, okay, well,
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some government employee gave them something and they're signing it.
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They're not reading the fine print. I'm not letting anybody
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off the hook here. I'm just saying that I don't
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read the fine print when I approve whatever, you know,
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thing online or when I register for some software. Have
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you run into examples of people who were like, didn't
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even know they were registered to vote?
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Well, put it this way. The vast majority of cases
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I have seen are ones where the alien registered to
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vote at the DMV and did so pursuant to the
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motor voter law, as you described it. And so this
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is overwhelmingly the major reason why they get registered to vote.
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And I think some of them are doing so, you know, accidentally.
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They aren't aware that they're breaking the law. Others are
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aware that they're breaking the law. But they, you know,
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the nice lady behind the desk has finished your license
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application and then says, and would you like to register
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to vote? And some people, I think. Some people, you know,
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some aliens in the United States might say, well, oh, well,
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this is a lady from the government. She's asking if
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I'd like to register to vote. I guess I can
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register to vote. So they'll say yes. Now, they in
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order to do that, though, 10 years ago, they had
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to fill out a form and the form said, I
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you check a box. Yes, I swear that I'm a U.S.
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citizen and I swear that I'm 18 years of age
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or older. And, you know, many of them might have
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had limited English skills and they might not have clearly
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read that or they might have just skipped over it
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as so many of us do when we sign things.
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And nowadays, you do it on a touchscreen at most DMVs.
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But the same words are there. I swear that I'm
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a US citizen. And so for whatever reason, they check
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the box anyway. And doing so is a huge federal crime,
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by the way. It's a federal offense punishable by up
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to 10 years in jail to falsely swear that you
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are a US citizen. Anyway, it is the predominant method
477
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by which aliens get registered. And of course, some of
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00:26:20.089 --> 00:26:22.269
them are just, you know, doing it at the DMV,
479
00:26:22.329 --> 00:26:25.990
not particularly thinking about why they're registering. But others. And
480
00:26:26.039 --> 00:26:28.200
so that's why they don't vote. Others, though, they get
481
00:26:28.440 --> 00:26:30.980
they get mail from candidates. They think, oh, there's an
482
00:26:31.000 --> 00:26:33.559
election coming up. This candidate looks really good. I think
483
00:26:33.579 --> 00:26:36.759
I'll go vote for this candidate. So the candidates drive
484
00:26:36.819 --> 00:26:38.990
it just by virtue of the fact that they're constantly
485
00:26:39.009 --> 00:26:41.990
sending out the mail and doing other advertisements. The other
486
00:26:42.009 --> 00:26:45.390
thing that this conclusion that this is supported by is.
487
00:26:46.769 --> 00:26:53.349
The vast majority of aliens voting in Kansas, every alien
488
00:26:53.369 --> 00:26:57.910
who's voting is voting illegally, are legal aliens. The media
489
00:26:58.059 --> 00:27:00.599
always gets this wrong. They put the word illegal in
490
00:27:00.619 --> 00:27:03.700
the wrong place in the sentence. Modifiers aren't something they
491
00:27:03.740 --> 00:27:07.359
teach in journalism school anyway, or the placement of modifiers
492
00:27:07.400 --> 00:27:11.059
in grammar. Anyway, they always say, oh, you know, Kobach
493
00:27:11.099 --> 00:27:14.690
is alleging that illegal aliens are voting. No, that's not
494
00:27:14.730 --> 00:27:17.190
what I'm alleging. I'm alleging that aliens are voting illegally.
495
00:27:17.690 --> 00:27:19.789
Most of them are legally present in the United States.
496
00:27:19.890 --> 00:27:22.789
Some are illegally present, but they're voting. And one of
497
00:27:22.829 --> 00:27:27.109
the cases we prosecuted in Kansas almost a year ago,
498
00:27:27.690 --> 00:27:30.779
this individual was not only voting, he ran for office
499
00:27:30.950 --> 00:27:33.670
in a small town and became the mayor. And so
500
00:27:35.259 --> 00:27:40.119
in his case, I think we did plead to give
501
00:27:40.160 --> 00:27:42.299
him a plea deal. In his case, I think he
502
00:27:42.339 --> 00:27:45.109
truly was unaware. that he was breaking the law. But
503
00:27:45.670 --> 00:27:48.970
the bottom line is our system is based on trust.
504
00:27:49.869 --> 00:27:52.950
And if nobody is policing the system, like I do
505
00:27:52.990 --> 00:27:55.160
here in Kansas, and the vast majority of states, by
506
00:27:55.180 --> 00:27:57.720
the way, the attorney general does not have the authority
507
00:27:58.160 --> 00:28:00.039
to prosecute voter fraud. The secretary of state does not
508
00:28:00.079 --> 00:28:02.119
have it. I believe Kansas is the only state where
509
00:28:02.640 --> 00:28:04.779
that is true. So you're relying on county attorneys who
510
00:28:04.839 --> 00:28:09.099
are overworked, understaffed, and unfamiliar with this area of the law.
511
00:28:09.440 --> 00:28:10.759
So it's a big problem.
512
00:28:11.319 --> 00:28:14.559
I remember reading, and I'm not clear if I recall
513
00:28:14.579 --> 00:28:18.799
this or not, but some state tried to require DMV
514
00:28:18.859 --> 00:28:23.299
employees to tell people when they presented them the register
515
00:28:23.319 --> 00:28:27.319
to vote, like prevent them from saying, now you can
516
00:28:27.339 --> 00:28:28.640
only do this if you're a U.S.
517
00:28:28.680 --> 00:28:29.099
Citizen.
518
00:28:29.140 --> 00:28:31.539
So make sure you, you know, if you're not a U.S. citizen,
519
00:28:31.559 --> 00:28:33.299
it's none of my business, but make sure you don't,
520
00:28:33.880 --> 00:28:36.099
you know, register to vote or something like that. Are
521
00:28:36.380 --> 00:28:39.140
DMV employees allowed to do that? Are states allowed to
522
00:28:39.509 --> 00:28:40.569
make that kind of requirement?
523
00:28:41.140 --> 00:28:43.700
They should be allowed to do so. I am not
524
00:28:43.880 --> 00:28:46.089
aware of which state you're referring to, but yeah, it
525
00:28:46.130 --> 00:28:49.410
certainly would not violate the motor voter act, the national
526
00:28:49.589 --> 00:28:53.730
voter registration act of the 1990s for the state to clarify,
527
00:28:53.750 --> 00:28:56.970
you know, you know, add an additional question. And are
528
00:28:56.990 --> 00:28:59.640
you a U S citizen if, because you need to
529
00:28:59.670 --> 00:28:59.990
be one.
530
00:29:00.359 --> 00:29:00.559
Right.
531
00:29:00.880 --> 00:29:03.420
Right. Now the absurdity of all this is that the,
532
00:29:04.019 --> 00:29:07.579
in order to give a driver's license, well, some States just,
533
00:29:07.839 --> 00:29:10.000
you know, violate the law that California, but if you,
534
00:29:10.710 --> 00:29:13.410
In order to give a driver's license to someone who
535
00:29:13.549 --> 00:29:17.210
is not a U.S. citizen, under the Real ID Act
536
00:29:17.490 --> 00:29:20.940
of 2005 passed by Congress, the state has to establish
537
00:29:20.980 --> 00:29:25.539
that the person is legally present. That's right. So the
538
00:29:26.039 --> 00:29:29.900
DMV clerk should have just been presented with evidence that
539
00:29:29.940 --> 00:29:32.680
this person is a lawfully present alien, like a visa
540
00:29:32.700 --> 00:29:36.930
or something. Now, again, we may be assuming too much
541
00:29:36.970 --> 00:29:39.369
legal knowledge here, but you would think that they would say, hey,
542
00:29:39.390 --> 00:29:41.980
wait a minute. You just showed me your green card.
543
00:29:42.400 --> 00:29:43.500
I shouldn't be asking you to vote.
544
00:29:44.039 --> 00:29:46.779
Yeah, this is something, though, needs to be systematized because
545
00:29:47.180 --> 00:29:49.220
there's a lot of people in the DMV. There's a
546
00:29:49.279 --> 00:29:51.400
long line. People are sick of waiting. You want to
547
00:29:51.440 --> 00:29:53.420
move the people through. It's the kind of thing that
548
00:29:53.440 --> 00:29:57.210
needs to be part of the process. So just one
549
00:29:57.549 --> 00:30:02.470
on this issue of motor voter, are there proposals that
550
00:30:02.509 --> 00:30:06.200
you've heard of in Congress to change that? I mean, obviously,
551
00:30:06.220 --> 00:30:08.240
you want to make sure people can register to vote
552
00:30:08.279 --> 00:30:11.940
if they are eligible. But this has clearly led to
553
00:30:12.019 --> 00:30:16.700
all kinds of people almost luring people into breaking the
554
00:30:16.740 --> 00:30:18.930
law in some cases, or at least people who just
555
00:30:19.009 --> 00:30:21.750
aren't all that knowledgeable or sophisticated. It just seems like
556
00:30:21.809 --> 00:30:26.099
it's a bad idea. Obviously, you're breaking the law, you're
557
00:30:26.119 --> 00:30:29.279
breaking the law. But if we're kind of setting up
558
00:30:29.319 --> 00:30:33.690
a situation where unsophisticated people are going to break the law,
559
00:30:33.730 --> 00:30:35.259
that's partly on us, isn't it?
560
00:30:35.609 --> 00:30:38.289
Yeah. And to answer your question, yes, there are proposals
561
00:30:38.329 --> 00:30:43.210
in Congress to tighten up the NVRA and to eliminate
562
00:30:43.230 --> 00:30:45.940
some of these loopholes or these opportunities for people to
563
00:30:46.460 --> 00:30:48.819
become registered to vote if they are not US citizens.
564
00:30:49.259 --> 00:30:54.380
But as you know, election law bills are are highly,
565
00:30:54.480 --> 00:30:59.390
highly politicized these days. And, you know, getting it through
566
00:30:59.410 --> 00:31:03.349
the Senate past the filibusters is very difficult. You know,
567
00:31:04.009 --> 00:31:06.829
it didn't used to be this way. I mean, when Kansas,
568
00:31:07.029 --> 00:31:09.190
you know, when I was first elected Secretary of State,
569
00:31:09.230 --> 00:31:12.740
first thing I worked on in 2011 was our bill
570
00:31:13.319 --> 00:31:17.099
creating photo ID requirements and creating proof of citizenship requirements
571
00:31:17.480 --> 00:31:21.930
when you register to vote. And that bill passed with
572
00:31:22.170 --> 00:31:27.180
bipartisan majorities, and the majority of Democrats voted in favor
573
00:31:27.220 --> 00:31:29.900
of that bill in 2011, as they did in other
574
00:31:29.960 --> 00:31:34.259
states prior to 2012. But then in 2012, something changed.
575
00:31:34.279 --> 00:31:37.470
The Democrat Party nationally decided that they were against election
576
00:31:37.509 --> 00:31:41.450
security laws. Bill Clinton seemed to be the harbinger of
577
00:31:41.490 --> 00:31:44.730
this change. He gave a speech saying that election security
578
00:31:44.769 --> 00:31:48.609
laws were the new Jim Crow laws, and all the
579
00:31:48.650 --> 00:31:52.150
Democrats got the memo, and suddenly the bipartisan support stopped
580
00:31:52.190 --> 00:31:53.569
in the year 2012.
581
00:31:53.569 --> 00:31:57.819
Incredible. One last question on the voting thing. My sense
582
00:31:57.859 --> 00:31:59.690
has been, and maybe I'm wrong on this, but my
583
00:31:59.759 --> 00:32:03.779
sense has been some of the legal immigrants who have voted,
584
00:32:03.880 --> 00:32:07.400
and as you said, it's mostly they're They're non-citizens, but
585
00:32:07.420 --> 00:32:11.299
they have green cards. Some of those people, my sense is,
586
00:32:11.640 --> 00:32:16.500
were illegal aliens and then got legalized for whatever reason,
587
00:32:16.519 --> 00:32:17.440
because that happens.
588
00:32:17.180 --> 00:32:17.720
All the time.
589
00:32:17.759 --> 00:32:20.680
People get green cards through various means, even if there's
590
00:32:20.720 --> 00:32:24.180
no big amnesty passed by Congress. And again, if people
591
00:32:24.200 --> 00:32:26.700
aren't that sophisticated, they're like, OK, well, I was illegal.
592
00:32:26.769 --> 00:32:27.269
Now I'm legal.
593
00:32:27.309 --> 00:32:29.170
That must mean I could vote. In other words, they're
594
00:32:29.809 --> 00:32:34.430
unclear on the concept of citizenship, kind of conflating it
595
00:32:34.470 --> 00:32:37.869
with just legalities. And they were illegal and they understood
596
00:32:37.910 --> 00:32:39.529
they couldn't vote then. But now that they have a
597
00:32:39.529 --> 00:32:43.470
green card, I'm all set, right? Have you encountered anything
598
00:32:43.490 --> 00:32:46.980
like that among the people, the cases you've been involved with?
599
00:32:47.059 --> 00:32:51.519
No, we haven't because it's, you know, normally it is
600
00:32:51.640 --> 00:32:55.529
not possible to go from illegal status to green card.
601
00:32:56.210 --> 00:32:59.309
Only under very, very rare situations can you do that.
602
00:32:59.329 --> 00:33:02.549
So no, that's a pretty, that's a rarity. Interesting. The
603
00:33:02.609 --> 00:33:05.650
vast majority of the people who are you know, voting
604
00:33:05.710 --> 00:33:09.190
illegally but are not U.S. citizens, came in legally and
605
00:33:09.250 --> 00:33:09.890
then eventually.
606
00:33:09.690 --> 00:33:10.869
Got— They know what they're doing, basically.
607
00:33:11.049 --> 00:33:12.470
They know what they're doing, yeah. Interesting.
608
00:33:13.029 --> 00:33:18.269
Okay, well, we've gone over our half-hour target, but that's
609
00:33:18.309 --> 00:33:20.650
no problem. This is an interesting topic. The last thing
610
00:33:20.670 --> 00:33:23.250
I want to ask you is you're not an old man.
611
00:33:23.269 --> 00:33:26.329
You're not going to be attorney general forever. What are
612
00:33:26.369 --> 00:33:27.210
your future plans?
613
00:33:27.880 --> 00:33:31.910
Well, right now I'm in a race for reelection. as
614
00:33:31.970 --> 00:33:35.349
Attorney General on November 3rd. I definitely want to serve
615
00:33:35.390 --> 00:33:37.970
another four years in this role. And it's really, it
616
00:33:38.059 --> 00:33:41.099
suits me as a person. I was a law professor
617
00:33:41.859 --> 00:33:45.359
before I became Secretary of State. And on the immigration
618
00:33:45.400 --> 00:33:49.579
issue in particular, we talked about the litigation over in-state tuition.
619
00:33:49.599 --> 00:33:52.329
It's something I've been able to make a real dent.
620
00:33:52.950 --> 00:33:55.670
I don't know if you know, Mark, but at the
621
00:33:55.869 --> 00:33:57.450
end of the Biden administration, in 2023, 15 states led
622
00:33:57.470 --> 00:34:05.839
by Kansas, challenged the Biden administration's regulation that gave Obamacare
623
00:34:06.619 --> 00:34:10.300
to illegal immigrants. And I argued that case personally on
624
00:34:10.340 --> 00:34:13.679
behalf of the 15 states. And we won in federal
625
00:34:13.719 --> 00:34:16.000
district court in North Dakota is where we brought it.
626
00:34:16.119 --> 00:34:20.500
And then we won again in the Eighth Circuit. So,
627
00:34:20.519 --> 00:34:25.239
you know, I enjoy doing this. And whether it's immigration
628
00:34:25.380 --> 00:34:28.000
or many of the other constitutional issues that I feel
629
00:34:28.039 --> 00:34:32.889
passionately about, Attorney General certainly fits me. So yeah, I'm
630
00:34:32.929 --> 00:34:37.150
hopeful that I'll get reelected on November 3rd. And if
631
00:34:37.230 --> 00:34:39.909
listeners want to, you know, read about it or chip in,
632
00:34:39.929 --> 00:34:41.530
they can go to chriscobach.com.
633
00:34:42.250 --> 00:34:44.309
We don't do election analysis here, but how is it
634
00:34:44.329 --> 00:34:46.090
looking for you? I mean, I don't know, do you
635
00:34:46.110 --> 00:34:49.380
guys do polling or something for attorney general races?
636
00:34:50.239 --> 00:34:52.559
Yeah, we do. And it's closer than it should be.
637
00:34:52.719 --> 00:34:55.119
You know, this cycle in- Well, this is a bad
638
00:34:55.239 --> 00:34:58.000
cycle too for Republicans in general. It's a tough cycle
639
00:34:58.039 --> 00:35:02.289
for Republicans with fuel prices being high. So, races that,
640
00:35:02.510 --> 00:35:05.650
you know, you would expect the Republican to win easily
641
00:35:05.929 --> 00:35:08.829
are turning out to be, you know, real, you know,
642
00:35:09.230 --> 00:35:12.730
bare-knuckled kind of scrapes to the very end. So, it's
643
00:35:12.829 --> 00:35:14.730
much closer than we want it to be.
644
00:35:15.329 --> 00:35:16.510
And what was the URL again?
645
00:35:16.869 --> 00:35:20.360
ChrisKobach.com, K-R-I-S-K-O-B-A-C-H.com.
646
00:35:20.659 --> 00:35:23.699
Well, thank you, Chris Kobach, Attorney General of the State
647
00:35:23.719 --> 00:35:27.559
of Kansas, talking to us about in-state tuition and also
648
00:35:27.619 --> 00:35:28.559
voting integrity.
649
00:35:28.780 --> 00:35:28.880
And.
650
00:35:29.789 --> 00:35:32.150
We had John about almost a year and a half
651
00:35:32.210 --> 00:35:36.320
ago on a broader range of issues. But, you know,
652
00:35:36.500 --> 00:35:39.000
keep us in mind and we'll keep an eye on you.
653
00:35:39.159 --> 00:35:42.800
And hopefully we'll have you back in the future.
654
00:35:42.820 --> 00:35:44.670
All right. Sounds great, Mark. Great speaking with you.
655
00:35:45.070 --> 00:35:47.829
Thank you, Chris. That's it for this week's episode of
656
00:35:47.929 --> 00:35:52.510
Parsing Immigration Policy. Thanks to Attorney General Kobach for joining us.
657
00:35:53.110 --> 00:35:56.480
Thanks to Brian Griffith, our producer, for making this work.
658
00:35:57.210 --> 00:35:59.400
Thanks to all of you for tuning in, and I
659
00:35:59.460 --> 00:36:00.480
hope you tune in next week.