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Hello and
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welcome
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to parenting with play this week. I'm so thrilled to have the lovely
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Joss Golden from WA in
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Australia. And Joss is a fellow Aware Parenting
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instructor. She's also a level 2 parenting instructor Aware Parenting which is
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fantastic, and has a background in psychology and
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counseling. And today's topic is one I'm sure
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many of you can relate to is how to
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manage parenting with your partner. And Joss actually has a
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fabulous course all about this, but I really wanted to talk to her today
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because if you're like me, there are times
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when you wanna do something different to what the father of your
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children want to do, what my husband wants to do. And so how do
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we best manage that? And so I'm really excited to have
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a conversation with Jos all about this. So if you're struggling
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with how to be on the same page, or you wanna do something differently, or
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just conflict arise arises within your relationship
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about parenting. Jos is your woman. So Jos, welcome. It's so good to have
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you here. Oh, thanks so much, Helena. It's a pleasure to talk to you about
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this. It comes up so often with clients. Pretty much every session,
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somebody's having some kind of challenge navigating
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parenting with another parent. It's it's not
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easy. It's not and especially because as
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moms, we're the ones who generally have done the research,
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who sort of really immersed ourselves into this world
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and wanting to figure out a better way of doing
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things. And then often our partners are like, what?
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Certainly with my husband's like, oh, okay. So we're co sleeping now. Okay. So we're
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doing this now. And, you know, that can just there can be a bit of
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a disconnect between those of us who are really heavily researching and
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reading and learning, and our partner who may not who's just sort
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of happy sometimes to go along with what we wanna do, but
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just not as involved. And so, yeah,
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like you, I have clients who just go, well, is there any point me even
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doing this approach? Because if my partner's not doing it, does it matter? So
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talk me through how how do we help up how do we help both of
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us get I was gonna say how do we help our partner get on the
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same page as us, but that's probably setting us up for conflict in the first
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place, isn't it? So how would you recommend just starting
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that sort of to help us get get to
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be on the same page wherever that same page is?
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Yeah. I mean, I would like to say as well that I I also have
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clients who are fathers who are really passionate about Aware Parenting, who are struggling
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with the mothers of their children not being on board, so it can work both
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ways but generally it is this way around and it becomes
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very frustrating for people to be doing lots of work, to be
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reading all all the books, to be listening to the podcasts and
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doing the courses and really diving deep into this beautiful approach
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and finding that their partner is really reluctant to, to do any of that
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research or doesn't appreciate, the work that
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they're doing or is just on a very different page and
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is parenting from their own, how they were parented and how they were
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raised without giving that much thought to it. So it is often really
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challenging and I think, I mean, there are lots of things that people can
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do to to get onto the same page as their partners or or to
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to work together as a team in parenting in a way that is
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functional and healthy and conscious and aware. But
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I think really the first thing is to for people to get really
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clear about why they want to do parenting this way
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and why it matters because then you can,
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you can decide that you're going to adopt lots of strategies in order
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to be able to support the family dynamics to work really well but it's really
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useful to have this like guiding light that you keep coming back to
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that says, no actually this is really important to me and this is actually really
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non negotiable because this is what I really value about it. And it
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also then really helps you to be able to explain that to your partner
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or to your parents or to whoever else you're dealing with,
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why you're doing what you're doing, why it matters and why you're so passionate
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about it, even to then come back to that, yeah, in tricky times.
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So I think that can be a really helpful place to start and the other
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thing I think that's always the most important in all of this
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is for moms to be getting lots of listening themselves because
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even if your partner is quite on board it's inevitable
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that, having children is going to alter
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and influence the dynamic of your relationship and change the way
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you relate to your partner. Becoming a mother changes who we
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are as mothers and so it's inevitably
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going to have some effect on our relationships too. And so
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even if you're in a wonderful relationship with a partner who reads all the books
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and does all the courses with you, there are still going to be lots of
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times when we need listening and support to to be
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able to express the big feelings that we have about partnering,
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parenting together with somebody else or about our partner when we have
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tricky moments or just the fact that, you know, parenting is really stressful and
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exhausting in the early days and so that's a
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perfect storm for creating more conflict between us and our partners when we're exhausted
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and overwhelmed and juggling all the different things that we're doing. So it's
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so important for everybody in the relationship but particularly
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the one who's driving this way of being, To be getting lots and lots
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of listening and support and opportunity to offload the
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stresses and the challenges, to dive into some of the
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younger parts of us that get touched and that can be often so painful
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and often in relationship with our partner,
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and the parts that just get really fed up with with them and the way
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that they behave towards the children sometimes, or the way that they don't help, or
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the fact that, you know we're doing it harder than they are, or you
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know all of the, all of those parts, and the parts
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that have to kind of re identify who we are
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as women when we become mothers. Many of us, you know, had
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careers or we had all kinds of different interests and hobbies that we
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were involved in and becoming a mother changes all that too. So
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I'd say those are my 2 biggest tips which don't really
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involve the partner of our children at all in order for us to be
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able to work towards having,
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relationships be as connected and conscious and as smooth
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and easy as possible. Yeah. Those are
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brilliant. I mean, the listening time is so
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powerful. And, when I'm working
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with clients and just saying because they go, oh, well, I can talk to my
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husband about things. And I'm going, it's so much more beneficial
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if you talk to somebody outside of your relationship. Because not
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only do you want to sort of perhaps just have a vent about your partner,
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but also I found that when I was complaining about my kids to my
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husband, it would wind him up as well. And so he would then get more
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annoyed about the situation, whereas I just actually needed to vent to him, and
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then perhaps for him to react calmly. But it's so beneficial to
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talk to somebody outside of your relationship. So you can just offload everything there,
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isn't it? Rather than because it doesn't take much, you know, you're
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holding it together all day with your kids or, you know, however long you are
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with your children, and then your partner comes in and prop
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says something minor. And because you've been holding it in, because you're
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being so patient and wonderful with your children, And then they
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say the slightest thing and you can just easily just go off,
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which, you know, obviously doesn't help the relationship. So, yeah,
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that point about having that external listening is
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so, so valuable, particularly
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because we talk about it in relation to our children. They're like, you know, go
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and vent about your children and, you know, work through what comes up for you
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about your children, but it's so powerful to also do it about your partner
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as well. Yeah. And I really like that you said that too
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that often when we are if we're trying to do listening time with our partner,
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it does often create conflict between you. It's it's
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not it's much harder to offer unconditional
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listening and empathy to your partner in that kind of way
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or or for them to be able to do that for you and not to
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be triggered and activated by things you might be saying about the children or
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vice versa. And it's quite easy for those conversations
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to, yeah, to feel not as
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supportive as it as it would be to be sharing with somebody who's outside of
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the family and it's really important that the person you're sharing with also understands that
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we're parenting and understands the importance of this kind of approach too
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because then they can say, you know, they can see that obviously
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you you really love your partner. You're just having a whinge about them or, you
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know, that you you you're most of the time your relationship's
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great, it's just that when you're coming to share. So you can be really free
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to just share from your heart about whatever it is that wants to be shared
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in that moment without upsetting anybody, without creating
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any kind of conflict or difficulty down the track. It's just a
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safe place to to offload the stress and to receive that
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kind of unconditional support, which then enables us to
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come back and communicate with our partners and communicate with the children in a way
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that is actually more likely to be the way that we wanna be communicating.
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Yeah. Yeah. It's it's such a
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I just keep saying this, but it's not just aware of parenting. It's aware of
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living. It's a way of being with everybody around
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us, including our partners. That is,
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Yeah. It's such an important part. So, yeah, I love I
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love that. And, I remember because
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it's very difficult also for our partners. If we have
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I remember explaining this to some medical students, some obstetrician obstetricians in
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training going, you know, before we have our baby, we're so in love with our
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partner. And then when we have our baby, we fall in love with
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them. And it can be quite hard to
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hold space for 2 people that you love, particularly at that
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intense time when you've just had a baby and every your whole world has
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just changed. And it and it's hard
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to navigate that without,
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without excluding your partner sometimes. It can be, you know, being with our
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baby can be so all consuming. And yes, we want help. And yes, of course,
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we still, you know, love our partner, but it's
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a I was quite struck by how different I
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felt afterwards because I I knew I was gonna love my baby,
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but I was just suddenly really consumed by my baby. And my baby
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was number 1. Whereas before that, my husband was number 1. And so that
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just that shift can be a really tricky time to to
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then renegotiate the relationship in a way and and refind
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your footing with your partner. Yeah.
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Absolutely. And you throw into that sleep deprivation and
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exhaustion and and all of the stress of of what you're going
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through. And it is it is a really hard time and of course it impacts
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the dynamics and often we feel
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quite overwhelmed. Well, first of all, sometimes we feel very
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overwhelmed by the the joy and the love and the tenderness and all of those
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needs of ours that are now getting met by this baby that we are lovingly
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tending to and holding and cuddling and all that kind of stuff, and so those
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needs in terms of receiving that kind of love and affection from our partner change.
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And then we also get the sense where we're physically kind of a bit touched
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out sometimes where we just need a bit of space and and at the end
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of the day and the baby's gone to sleep and then our partner wants a
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cuddle and we're like, well, actually, I've had enough cuddles for one day. Thank you
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very much. And so that changes that dynamic too. So
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it's it's a lot to be to be working through
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and like you say, their role in in the relationship is is
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a difficult one initially because they have
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all the the jobs and that they can support us with
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around managing the home and managing everything that we're doing in the home.
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But in terms of actually looking after the baby that is our,
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us, often our sole focus especially if we're the ones who are breastfeeding
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and that kind of thing. And so it can be quite hard for partners
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to, kind of, know where they fit into this new picture.
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And so I think, yeah, being aware of that can can be
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helpful for the mothers and fathers in a
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relationship to to understand the shifting dynamics between them and
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how how the next chapter of your relationship is going to look
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different to how it looked just before the baby was born.
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Yes. Yeah. And that changed. Like, my husband was, I
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don't think, fully realizing that we were gonna go down the
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bed sharing, Aware Parenting, Attachment Parenting
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route. You know, he married one person and then suddenly is
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now sort of, you know, having another aspect of that person.
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And it is it's a hard it can be a hard shift to go along
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with. But I mean, obviously, they're caught up in the excitement and exhaustion of a
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baby as well. And and sometimes they're quite happy to just go along.
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But when you then come to the point of
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conflict, and it could be in that it might not be in the
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baby stage, but there can be conflict particularly around whether to do the
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self soothing method or, or before I discovered
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Aware Parenting, you know, the constant feeding and holding and jiggling method. And
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that's why I think Aware Parenting is just so helpful for relationships
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as well because you can be with your baby and then you don't have to,
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you know, there's, there's a structure around how you help your baby
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sleep better. But,
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it's when you get to that conflict, that sort of crunch time going, no.
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I I don't agree with that or,
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sort of over time, the conflict might arise that
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can that can ultimately lead to the breakdown in relationships. But how would you
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recommend then navigating? Like, I mean, I like how you're
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saying the why, but say you're you do come at it from
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different angles and, you know, no, I want to do the
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self soothing method. No, I want to do aware parenting method. You know, how would
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you help couples navigate that?
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Yeah. Well, I think that's a really, really challenging thing and it depends on
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how the dynamic was in your before you had a baby too
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and, you know, some, some relationships are very sort of 5050
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even and some relationships have one person relationship who's much more
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dominant than the other in terms of all the decision making. And so
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that will obviously impact how how that process goes,
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but I think it's really helpful to come back to your why around Aware Parenting
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so that you can decide what what is and what isn't a
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negotiable thing for you, and what what you are a
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100% committed to, and and not willing to compromise on,
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and what you are willing to compromise on. And obviously all you can
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do in that relationship is to do how you're going to do the parenting. You
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can't make, you know, you can lead a horse to water but you can't
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make anybody else to parent the way you want them to,
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but you can be really clearly communicating why this is
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important to you, and you can be respectful conversations and and
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keep coming back and visiting it and exploring. And, of course, with the Aware Parenting
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perspective, we can often understand that it's
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likely if if our partner is wanting to do things in
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a very sort of authoritarian way, for example, or wanting to do cry
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it out, that kind of approach to baby
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sleep training, then we can understand that
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there's almost certainly their own trauma underneath that that is driving their
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behavior. So it might be possible for us to be deeply
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compassionate about why they are choosing to do it
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that way and making different choices to us. But in
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the end, each person has to decide
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what they are willing to compromise on in that
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relationship and to keep trying their best to explain why you want to do
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it. But I know that in the end if, I mean, yeah,
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my partner and I have been together for many years, but if he had not
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been, and it was all driven by me, the Aware Parenting and the Attachment
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Parenting too but if he had not been willing to parent in
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that way or at least allow me to parent in that
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way, that that would have been that I don't see how he could have come
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back from that. So sometimes sometimes it is the end of a
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relationship and and that, of course, is really complicated and incredibly
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painful. But it just depends on what what
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is your driving priority when
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it comes to raising your children and what you're willing to compromise on and what
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you're not. Yeah. Because it
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it it's so important. I mean, obviously we know this
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and everybody listening to this is how we raise our children and how we are
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with them and it and,
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it's very hard to then give give up that. So, you know, where I
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came to with my husband was, I do Aware
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Parenting and he's a great dad who doesn't necessarily follow Aware
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Parenting, but he's a great loving father.
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But I just, you know but it gives me the doesn't give me the space.
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It is not averse to me doing,
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you know, the listening in arms and and crying in arms and and all of
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that approach. But it doesn't mean that you have to be on exactly the same
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page. But I think it's allowing that whilst
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staying true to the principles. You know, because if my husband was
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abusive, then of course we wouldn't be that. But
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I think I sometimes come across, often come across well, if I'm
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not if my husband's or my partner's not gonna do Aware Parenting, is there
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any point me doing Aware Parenting? And I really like how you're saying, you know,
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as long as we can follow that approach,
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then then that that well, then that's often enough. And then we
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don't have to have the other person exactly doing exactly the steps. But
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and but having that that family unit where
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that's okay to to do that. Don't know if I'm saying this quite right, but
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you'd, clearly. But it it's okay
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for your partner not to do exactly what you want them to do or what
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you're doing. As long as you are following this approach and you are still within
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00:19:34
a, you know, a loving relationship, you can still make Aware Parenting work
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00:19:38
without the other person having to do exactly the
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00:19:42
steps precisely. Yeah, absolutely. And it's such a
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00:19:46
powerful approach that of course we can always,
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00:19:50
be making a significant, a massive difference to our children's
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00:19:53
lives by practicing this even if it's only one of us who's doing that in
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00:19:56
the family. And when we understand all the different strategies that we
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00:20:00
can use in Aware Parenting, we can bring that to our children's
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00:20:03
relationship with their other part, their other parent as well and
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00:20:07
so, you know, if our children, if our husband, for example, has just
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00:20:11
got really angry with the children then we can go and listen to their feelings
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00:20:14
about that or, you know, if our husband is really great
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00:20:18
at attachment play but isn't very good at listening to feelings
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00:20:22
then we can divide up the the way that we're gonna offer
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00:20:25
these strategies in a way that plays to everybody's strength. Or if we
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00:20:29
have times when we don't have capacity and our partner is willing in those moments
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00:20:33
to take over and support but most of the time we're doing the listening,
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00:20:37
then that of course is enough, it's more than enough. And I think, you know,
Speaker:
00:20:40
it's really helpful to remember that any time you're offering your
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00:20:44
children attachment play, any time that you are listening to their feelings,
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00:20:48
any time you are rewinding with them after conflict or after challenges,
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00:20:52
these are all deeply significant things that we're doing. So there
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00:20:56
is no idea of this sort of perfect family who are
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00:21:00
lovingly offering Aware Parenting all the time and that's what we're all aiming
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00:21:03
for. We're just navigating our way through the messiness of
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00:21:06
life doing the best we can and listening to feelings when we
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00:21:10
can, and playing when we can, and rewinding when
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00:21:14
we can't. And, you know, that's that's very
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00:21:18
significant in terms of what our children are experiencing in their childhood.
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00:21:21
So it's not that it has to be perfect or else there's no point in
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00:21:24
doing it. It's just that life is always messy and
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00:21:28
difficult and
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00:21:33
heartbreak and we can navigate all of that as
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00:21:36
long as we're getting the support and listening that we need so that we can
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00:21:40
then hold space for our children to to share their
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00:21:44
feelings and to integrate and to heal from any experiences that they
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00:21:47
have that are unpleasant as a result of any conflict between us and our
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00:21:51
partner. I think that's such such an empower
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00:21:55
an important point because again, many people can think, oh,
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00:21:58
well, there's this perfect family where both parents,
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00:22:02
you know, do attachment play and listen to all feelings. And,
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00:22:06
you know, when our own family falls short, we go, oh gosh. Well
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00:22:10
then that means I'm not doing it properly. And so, you know, your your
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00:22:14
point about do what we can do because we're not perfect.
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00:22:18
So it's not there is no perfect aware
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00:22:22
parenting family. We all stuff up. We all have times of stress
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00:22:26
and, you know, needing to repair with our children.
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00:22:31
And as as long as we can do that when we can,
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00:22:34
that is that's what's going to help. We don't have to because
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00:22:38
it can get to a real point of conflict going, well, just listen
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00:22:42
to their crying if you listen, you know, and that that sort of,
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00:22:46
perhaps inability by our partner to want to listen or
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00:22:50
to be able to listen or to do the things that we think
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00:22:54
that they should be doing, that can become a real source of conflict.
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00:22:58
Whereas for me, there was a lot of just letting
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00:23:01
that go, knowing what a great dad he
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00:23:05
is, but I'm the one who listens to to feelings. And
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00:23:09
but it took me a while to get there because I was so cause I
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00:23:12
knew how powerful it was. So I was like, right, can you do this? Also
Speaker:
00:23:15
because I'd had enough, you know, I wanted support in there. And so for me,
Speaker:
00:23:18
when I got to a point of, okay, well, this is just what I do.
Speaker:
00:23:21
I listen to upset feelings. And then that really decreased the
Speaker:
00:23:25
tension between me and my husband because I was like, well, that's okay
Speaker:
00:23:29
because he doesn't have to because I am, and
Speaker:
00:23:32
that is that is gonna be enough. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker:
00:23:36
That really takes a lot of the pressure off, doesn't it? And I think what
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00:23:40
the other thing that's really lovely about Aware Parenting is it teaches us that there's
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00:23:43
always a legitimate reason for behavior for our children
Speaker:
00:23:47
but there's also always a legitimate reason for behavior from our partners
Speaker:
00:23:50
too. And so when we can bring that perspective and for
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00:23:54
ourselves as well of course and to be looking at that lovely list of 3
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00:23:58
that we often bring to our children, you know, their needs for information,
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00:24:02
their unmet needs and their, accumulated feelings,
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00:24:05
and we can be thinking of that same framework for ourselves
Speaker:
00:24:09
and thinking of that same framework for our partners. So, you know, perhaps perhaps
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00:24:13
we can have
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00:24:23
I really love about it and this is why I think it works and this
Speaker:
00:24:26
is how I understand it. Would you like to know more? Does that
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00:24:30
make sense to you? Do you have any questions? So that there
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00:24:33
there needs for understanding and now there is so much information out there and that
Speaker:
00:24:37
I've had, you know, that we've got, like, short, I've got a short
Speaker:
00:24:41
course, you know, there's lots of information now that's presented in the way
Speaker:
00:24:44
that even the most reluctant partner would be willing to listen to a
Speaker:
00:24:48
20 minute podcast, for example. But, so to ensure that
Speaker:
00:24:52
they are getting the information that they need and that they're willing to receive,
Speaker:
00:24:56
can be super helpful. And then looking at needs and having conversations together
Speaker:
00:25:00
around needs. You know, what are your unmet needs? They're never gonna be able to
Speaker:
00:25:03
show up and be the father we want them to be if they've got
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00:25:07
endless unmet needs and never taking time for themselves and and
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00:25:10
either at work or at home with the children, but never actually
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00:25:15
having a break and tending to themselves. So, yeah, again, having
Speaker:
00:25:18
conversations about that. What are your main unmet needs at the moment? Mine
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00:25:22
are this. How can we find ways to be creative in our family to support
Speaker:
00:25:26
us both, to have some time, to support you to get time away from
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00:25:30
the family, tending to yourself and doing what you love and the same for me
Speaker:
00:25:33
as well. And really prioritizing the importance of that because
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00:25:36
we then have so much more capacity and so much more likelihood
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00:25:40
to be able to handle the the demands of parenting.
Speaker:
00:25:44
And then the third thing is around listening to feelings and our own
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00:25:48
feelings and and our partners and often our partners, I mean, as
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00:25:51
men, most of our partners grew up in a culture where feelings
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00:25:55
were not tolerated from boys, they had this
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00:25:59
imprint around, you know, that it's, you know, it's not
Speaker:
00:26:02
it's not okay for boys to cry. And so most of them grew up in
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00:26:06
this culture without ever receiving the listening
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00:26:10
that they need. And most of us as mothers get the
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00:26:13
chance to come together with other mothers and to share,
Speaker:
00:26:17
but most fathers are entirely on their own from other fathers and aren't
Speaker:
00:26:21
connecting with other fathers and aren't getting spaces to share and be
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00:26:24
vulnerable and to express how they feel and have a lifetime
Speaker:
00:26:28
of unheard tears inside them. So it's inevitable
Speaker:
00:26:32
that there are going to be times when they have big feelings and as we
Speaker:
00:26:35
know from Aware Parenting, when they have big feelings, they're either going to go into
Speaker:
00:26:39
that hyper arousal response and become angry and aggressive
Speaker:
00:26:42
and, you know, agitated or they're gonna go into
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00:26:46
dissociation and switch off and and zone out and go
Speaker:
00:26:49
into their control patterns. And so, you know, even just starting
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00:26:53
to explain that, even just starting to encourage our partners
Speaker:
00:26:57
to to be getting some kind of doing something that
Speaker:
00:27:00
that supports their nervous system to be regulated, doing something
Speaker:
00:27:04
that supports them to be tending to themselves and the the sore parts in
Speaker:
00:27:08
them that come up. Even if it's just having the
Speaker:
00:27:12
opportunity to talk to us and we can be a bit of a listening partner
Speaker:
00:27:15
for them for things that come up, is really, really helpful because they
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00:27:18
can't just come to parenting and do parenting and do Aware
Speaker:
00:27:22
Parenting unless these other aspects of the picture are
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00:27:25
being addressed for them and that they're getting some kind of
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00:27:29
support which is, yeah, as I said, often the first time that
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00:27:33
they've ever received any listening, they've ever had the chance to cry.
Speaker:
00:27:37
I mean I know when my son was born that was one of the only
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00:27:40
times I ever saw my husband cry And you know, it's
Speaker:
00:27:43
it's, we all know the power and the healing power of crying and it's
Speaker:
00:27:47
something that, you know, I do regularly to support myself in parenting
Speaker:
00:27:51
but you know that our husbands need the same. They need opportunities
Speaker:
00:27:55
to, to release and to heal their own stuff and to
Speaker:
00:27:59
even at least start to understand that when they're triggered by the
Speaker:
00:28:02
children, there's a reason for that and it's starting to understand
Speaker:
00:28:06
that picture that it's, you know, younger parts of you that are getting touched in
Speaker:
00:28:10
this experience. And even just understanding that
Speaker:
00:28:13
for a man can be a really powerful first step so
Speaker:
00:28:17
that he he's motivated to start
Speaker:
00:28:21
exploring some of that a bit more for himself. And now fortunately, there are
Speaker:
00:28:24
more like men's groups and courses for fathers
Speaker:
00:28:28
and people sharing in social media about about
Speaker:
00:28:32
this aspect. So it is increasingly, I think, gonna be the
Speaker:
00:28:35
case that men will be getting more of the support that they need as fathers.
Speaker:
00:28:38
But certainly in the early days of our parenting journey,
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00:28:42
there there was no support for for fathers at all. So
Speaker:
00:28:46
it's it's really it can make a big
Speaker:
00:28:50
difference to start just being aware of those three aspects and
Speaker:
00:28:53
how we can support more of that for them so that they have more
Speaker:
00:28:57
capacity to to parent in the way that we want them to.
Speaker:
00:29:02
Yes. I I love all of that. And, you
Speaker:
00:29:05
know, we we work so hard on having understanding for our children
Speaker:
00:29:09
and understanding, you know, why they're behaving the way they are, what they're
Speaker:
00:29:13
needing. And we can sometimes be a bit blind
Speaker:
00:29:17
to what our partner is similarly
Speaker:
00:29:20
needing and experiencing and and, you know, those
Speaker:
00:29:23
lifetime of un what did you say it? You know, unheard
Speaker:
00:29:27
tears. I can't remember the exact words you said, but, you know, just that sort
Speaker:
00:29:30
of powerful go, yeah, Men as a whole find this do find
Speaker:
00:29:34
this harder because they haven't had that capacity to to be
Speaker:
00:29:37
heard and listened to in that way. And certainly their fathers weren't at
Speaker:
00:29:41
all. So to
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00:29:45
to have grace and understanding that as women, we we
Speaker:
00:29:49
do meet and we do talk. And I mean, I know some women still find
Speaker:
00:29:53
that hard, but as a whole, we are better at that. And and,
Speaker:
00:29:57
the men in our lives don't have that to that degree. Or if they do
Speaker:
00:30:00
catch up, they talk about I mean, it's great stuff for them, but, you
Speaker:
00:30:03
know, it's not necessarily feelings and what's going on, which is
Speaker:
00:30:07
fine. And I think also acknowledging that it is important
Speaker:
00:30:10
for our partners to to go out with their friends.
Speaker:
00:30:14
You know, and to begin with, we can go, would there be I need you
Speaker:
00:30:17
home with me, but actually allowing allowing
Speaker:
00:30:20
again, there's that word.
Speaker:
00:30:24
Being okay with our, with our partners meeting up with their
Speaker:
00:30:28
friends, because that's their support network, even though they're not necessarily talking about
Speaker:
00:30:32
their feelings, but them having that sol you know, maintaining their
Speaker:
00:30:35
solid friendships is so important too. Yes.
Speaker:
00:30:39
Yes. And and play. Sorry. Go on. Play. Yes. Go
Speaker:
00:30:43
on. Well, I was just gonna say it's not be playful if we're not getting
Speaker:
00:30:47
play in our own lives. And I remember a good friend of mine complaining about
Speaker:
00:30:50
her husband going out playing golf regularly. And I'm
Speaker:
00:30:54
going, one day you'll be really pleased that he's going out playing golf. But also
Speaker:
00:30:57
he needs that. You know, that's his space. Because, you know, one of the big
Speaker:
00:31:01
things I say to to women who work with me is, again, what do you
Speaker:
00:31:04
do that's lovely for you? And we, as women, can get so consumed by our
Speaker:
00:31:08
children, that, you know, we go, okay. Well, I don't know
Speaker:
00:31:12
what I what I enjoy doing. And that can be a
Speaker:
00:31:15
block for us being playful with our kids. But so
Speaker:
00:31:19
letting our men in our lives go and have fun so that they can
Speaker:
00:31:23
then come back, recharge, and then play. Go on. Say what you're gonna say about
Speaker:
00:31:26
playing. Yeah. Oh, well, that was it basically, just that it, you know, it is
Speaker:
00:31:29
such an important part of the healing and often for men, it's much easier to
Speaker:
00:31:32
release and heal through laughter and,
Speaker:
00:31:36
and play. So, yeah, bring it on, encourage that, and and
Speaker:
00:31:40
to have playful moments between you because again, often we get, we
Speaker:
00:31:44
get sort of so exhausted by the
Speaker:
00:31:48
the responsibility of parenting and the demands of parenting and the
Speaker:
00:31:51
serious business of raising our children. And so
Speaker:
00:31:55
bringing playful connection and fun and laughter to our relationship
Speaker:
00:31:59
between the 2 of us is also really therapeutic and important
Speaker:
00:32:03
and healing and vital as part of this process and again when we have this
Speaker:
00:32:07
Aware Parenting understanding, we see the power of play with our
Speaker:
00:32:10
children. The same is true for us and the same is true for our partners,
Speaker:
00:32:14
both individually and together. Yes.
Speaker:
00:32:17
I I mean, we need to have special time with our partners. We need to
Speaker:
00:32:21
because I know that whenever I've gone out, you know, you it's so easy to
Speaker:
00:32:24
get irritated by the day to day. Aspects of life.
Speaker:
00:32:29
And then we'd go out on a date night and I'd be like, oh, I
Speaker:
00:32:32
I can remember why I loved you. You know, I can remember, you know, you
Speaker:
00:32:35
can feel it's like whenever I have special time with my children, I can
Speaker:
00:32:39
feel my love for them more. And the same with our
Speaker:
00:32:42
partners. If we it's so important that we do nurture that
Speaker:
00:32:46
relationship and have fun together because otherwise it does just
Speaker:
00:32:50
become a list of who's doing what and have you put the bins out and,
Speaker:
00:32:53
you know, we need to make packed lunches and the day to day humdrum of
Speaker:
00:32:56
life. So to to really prioritise that special time,
Speaker:
00:33:00
whatever we wanna call it, you know, date night. Because then we
Speaker:
00:33:04
reconnect as as each other rather than just as mum and dad,
Speaker:
00:33:07
which can get really boring sometimes, you
Speaker:
00:33:11
know. So it's so important. And it's
Speaker:
00:33:14
again, like with special time, it's an easy thing to drop because
Speaker:
00:33:18
there's so much to do. There's so much, you know, there's always things to do.
Speaker:
00:33:21
So to to go out on date night can sometimes seem like, oh, God.
Speaker:
00:33:25
Oh, really? I'm tired. Can we just stay in and not bother? But actually it
Speaker:
00:33:29
is worth the effort because it's important to feel
Speaker:
00:33:32
that love. Because when we feel that love for a partner, then we we're much
Speaker:
00:33:36
more likely to be able to be patient and to go, oh, you
Speaker:
00:33:40
know, to be more forgiving and to be playful again. And
Speaker:
00:33:43
and it it benefits everybody. Yeah.
Speaker:
00:33:47
Absolutely. And then we can also, from that space of being connected
Speaker:
00:33:51
again to each other, we're more likely to be able to be compassionate towards
Speaker:
00:33:54
them and we're more likely to be able to have these really important conscious conversations
Speaker:
00:33:58
that we need to have again and again and again with our partners
Speaker:
00:34:02
as part of this parenting journey where we might be bringing up things that we're
Speaker:
00:34:06
concerned about about the children or we might be talking about, you know,
Speaker:
00:34:09
challenges that we've been having or or things that went you know,
Speaker:
00:34:13
times when things went a bit dodge, when somebody got angry
Speaker:
00:34:17
or it didn't go the way we wanted it to be or whatever and just,
Speaker:
00:34:20
it's very hard. It's impossible to have conscious and connected and
Speaker:
00:34:24
deliberate conversations from a place of disconnection. So we really need
Speaker:
00:34:28
to be prioritizing that time to come together and to
Speaker:
00:34:32
to feel connected and to feel close again. And like you
Speaker:
00:34:35
say, back in love again, in order to be able to be having these these
Speaker:
00:34:39
important conversations about things that we want or I
Speaker:
00:34:43
noticed that, you know, the other day this happens and you seem to
Speaker:
00:34:46
get really activated. What was going on for you? Is there can I
Speaker:
00:34:50
support you more with that? What would be helpful in future? Or it, you know,
Speaker:
00:34:53
might be that we want to be modeling to our
Speaker:
00:34:57
children, modeling to our partner how we want to be responding to our children and
Speaker:
00:35:01
so we might say, you know, this is how, this is how I do it
Speaker:
00:35:05
sometimes or, you know, I don't know if you noticed but the other day there
Speaker:
00:35:08
was lots of feelings there and I just moved in and was silly and brought
Speaker:
00:35:11
in some play and some choice for a moment and then that really supported them
Speaker:
00:35:14
to get in the car and for us to go and, you know, is that
Speaker:
00:35:17
how how is that something you think you might want to do or, you know,
Speaker:
00:35:19
all of these sorts of conversations where we're trying to support them
Speaker:
00:35:23
to to incorporate more of the strategies of Aware Parenting into their own
Speaker:
00:35:27
parenting, come from these this place
Speaker:
00:35:31
of of connection. And we can't we can't be saying yeah. We can't be
Speaker:
00:35:34
having these conversations at times of of big conflict and stress
Speaker:
00:35:38
between us. I was just gonna say the time
Speaker:
00:35:41
to to show and teach or in a better word
Speaker:
00:35:45
is not in the heat at the moment, which I
Speaker:
00:35:58
to bring up something that might feel a bit
Speaker:
00:36:01
uncomfortable, but at a time when you are feeling more
Speaker:
00:36:06
relaxedness and a bit of distance from a fraught
Speaker:
00:36:10
time, not doing it in the heat of the moment.
Speaker:
00:36:13
Yeah. How would you how would you navigate
Speaker:
00:36:17
if somebody said, well, I'm just not willing to do that. I'm just not
Speaker:
00:36:21
I'm just not gonna do that. I'm not gonna. As in I'm not gonna have
Speaker:
00:36:24
those conversations. Oh, I'm not No. As in you having that conversation and your
Speaker:
00:36:27
partner's going, I'm not gonna listen to crying. I don't wanna do
Speaker:
00:36:31
that. Well, that's, you
Speaker:
00:36:35
know, that's a challenging one, isn't it? And I think, yeah, that's a moment for
Speaker:
00:36:38
you to be getting lots and lots of listening for yourself about all of
Speaker:
00:36:41
that, what that brings up for you. Imagine there's disappointment and
Speaker:
00:36:45
frustration and resentment. There might be rage and and disempowerment.
Speaker:
00:36:49
There might be all kinds of really painful feelings to hear that from your
Speaker:
00:36:53
partner. So, yeah, I think that's a moment to be reaching out
Speaker:
00:36:56
for support and more support and more support until you can get really, really
Speaker:
00:37:00
clear and come back to a place of clarity
Speaker:
00:37:04
about what that means for you, what that means for your relationship, and what that
Speaker:
00:37:08
means for your children. And, yeah, those are the
Speaker:
00:37:11
moments when we need care and we need nurturing and we
Speaker:
00:37:15
need compassion ourselves because that's often that's very, very
Speaker:
00:37:19
painful to hear about if it's something that you really deeply care
Speaker:
00:37:22
about. So, yeah, getting lots of listening and then,
Speaker:
00:37:26
yeah, making making some having having more conversations and
Speaker:
00:37:30
more conversations and and reassuring yourself that it's okay.
Speaker:
00:37:34
It's okay if it's just you who's doing it. And what you want
Speaker:
00:37:38
that to mean for your relationship is that's an individual thing that
Speaker:
00:37:42
depends on, you know, all the other factors that are part of your relationship
Speaker:
00:37:45
too. But, yeah, that's a time just to get a lot of listening for us.
Speaker:
00:37:50
A lot of listening because it can you know, just like with parenting, it
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00:37:54
can touch on younger parts of us that were hurt, that were told
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00:37:58
no, that might have been dismissed or treated in a way that
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00:38:01
we now well, that we now we didn't like at the
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00:38:05
time, and we wouldn't tolerate now. And,
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00:38:09
and I think it's recognizing that it's not always about what's
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00:38:13
happening in the moment that we both come to that conversation
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00:38:17
with unhealed hurts, and that can lead us to be more explosive
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00:38:20
and more, hurt or more,
Speaker:
00:38:26
Yeah, it it's to understand that there's often
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00:38:30
a deeper thing. So for us to go away and to get that listening time
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00:38:34
and to go, okay, does this feel familiar? Yes. I remember when I
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00:38:37
was spoken to in this way, or I felt this disempowerment
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00:38:41
because it's often when we feel really powerless that then
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00:38:45
that makes us be more aggressive and more like, well, you have to do this.
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00:38:49
And if we can go back and and really start
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00:38:52
to look at and heal those earlier parts of us, we can then
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00:38:56
come to a conversation that's difficult in a in a more
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00:39:00
empowered, genuine genuinely empowered way.
Speaker:
00:39:04
Because with our partner, it does it is more triggering. Like, it's it's
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00:39:08
harder and more triggering to have a conversation with them than it is to just,
Speaker:
00:39:11
you know, have a friend because it means so much more and it can represent
Speaker:
00:39:15
so much more. So to really work on those earlier parts
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00:39:19
of us can be so profoundly healing.
Speaker:
00:39:22
Yeah. Absolutely. And it often, you know, it's often reminds us
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00:39:26
of, you know, the way that our fathers might have spoken to us
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00:39:29
or or the way that some of our male teachers might have spoken to us.
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00:39:33
And there are lots of layers in this, particularly for women
Speaker:
00:39:36
around the way that they were spoken to by men or
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00:39:40
previous relationships that they've had with men where they might have been spoken, you know,
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00:39:43
treated in a way that was really hurtful and and there's lots of
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00:39:47
accumulated feelings around that too. So, yeah, the more that we're getting
Speaker:
00:39:51
places to be able to share all the different feelings that are coming up,
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00:39:54
both in terms of the present moment stresses of being in relationship
Speaker:
00:39:58
with somebody else and those younger parts of us that are being touched
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00:40:02
by the way our partner might be speaking to us or or to the children.
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00:40:05
It's absolutely crucial. Yeah. It
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00:40:09
is. It is. I just don't know how I would do it otherwise, to be
Speaker:
00:40:13
honest. I think it's, it's such an, it's such an invaluable part of my life.
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00:40:16
And sometimes I do have to preface going, I love my husband. He's very,
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00:40:20
very good dad. And I just need to to have this moment of
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00:40:24
venting. And then I always feel so much better for having had that
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00:40:28
because then I can go back to a situation a lot calmer
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00:40:31
and more or even just more objective and going, just going,
Speaker:
00:40:35
well, this is just something that he's not able to do, and that's okay,
Speaker:
00:40:39
actually. Yeah. Because this is important to me, and I can do this
Speaker:
00:40:42
on my own or not on my own, but I I'm the, you know, I'm
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00:40:46
happy. The example in my family is I'm the one who listens to upset
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00:40:49
feelings and that's okay. Because
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00:40:53
I fully recognize, you know, how my husband was brought up and feelings were
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00:40:56
not an acceptable part of his childhood. So
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00:41:00
it's it's interesting actually, I think, being with our partners because then we get to
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00:41:03
understand their parents a lot more. You can see the
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00:41:07
patterns so clearly. Clearly I have no patterns in
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00:41:10
my, my life, but I can see them very clearly in his behaviour.
Speaker:
00:41:15
Yes, indeed. My little boy is now
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00:41:19
coming in because this is morning time for me and it's getting ready for
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00:41:23
school. Just one second, Jeff. Just Yep.
Speaker:
00:42:03
Sorry. Just on the wrap up in 5
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00:42:06
minutes. That's tricky. Just getting everything
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00:42:09
ready. I'll be out in a minute. It's 5
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00:42:13
minutes. Oh, okay. 5 minutes.
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00:42:18
Does that feel like we've covered my stuff now? Sorry.
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00:42:24
Didn't Yeah. I mean, there are there are lots of, you know, ways that you
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00:42:28
can bring more connection and and
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00:42:32
strategies and prompt and, you know, conversation
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00:42:36
starters and nonviolent communication. You know, bringing all of
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00:42:39
those things in can really support more
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00:42:43
harmonious interaction with your partner
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00:42:47
to even if you can't come to exactly the same page in
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00:42:51
parenting to at least be able to navigate the differences in a way
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00:42:55
that has you know, is more respectful.
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00:42:58
And, I mean, Alisa talks about that as such a central part of
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00:43:02
Aware Parenting, having a peaceful conflict resolution and and respectful,
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00:43:06
interactions and having meetings and
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00:43:13
those things can come into and things like loving limits as well, we can be
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00:43:17
offering loving limits to our partners. So really the whole of the Aware
Speaker:
00:43:20
Parenting framework can be applied to our partners too to support
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00:43:24
more, yeah, more harmony, more connection, more ease
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00:43:28
in in the co parenting relationship. But I think in
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00:43:31
the end, really, it all comes down to us getting the support that we
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00:43:35
need to be able to tend to those younger parts
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00:43:39
of us that get touched in conflict with our partners and
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00:43:43
to navigate the stresses in the moment that in ways that bring us
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00:43:46
back to to clarity and to connection.
Speaker:
00:43:52
Yeah. I love that. And and whilst retaining,
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00:43:56
true to what we really want, you know, that you'd mentioned in the very
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00:44:00
beginning about what's your why. Why why have you come to Aware Parenting?
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00:44:03
Why are you wanting to do this, and and
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00:44:07
retaining connection with that whilst
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00:44:11
navigating day to day life.
Speaker:
00:44:14
And I've do you, do you do NVC in your, in your program?
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00:44:18
Do you wanna talk a little bit more of just very quickly about your course?
Speaker:
00:44:21
Yeah. And do you incorporate NVC in that and having difficult conversations?
Speaker:
00:44:25
Yes. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. So my course is called Aware
Speaker:
00:44:29
Partnering in Parenthood and it's really just about how to bring the
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00:44:32
whole framework of Aware Parenting to your relationship with the other parent of your
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00:44:36
children. And this is it's suitable for, you know, if
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00:44:40
you're married to the parent of your child or if you're separated
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00:44:43
or if you're in a blended family or, you know, whatever the individual circumstances
Speaker:
00:44:48
that the course still applies. And,
Speaker:
00:44:51
I think, yeah, we I mean, that's a whole section which talks about how to
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00:44:55
how to come onto the same page, and how to use these different techniques
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00:44:59
and strategies to support your relationship. And I think what can also be
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00:45:02
really helpful sometimes, and I do a lot of work with both parents in
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00:45:06
sessions, it can be really helpful to
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00:45:09
for your partner to hear it from somebody else rather than from
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00:45:13
you and to have an opportunity to express their concerns and their
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00:45:17
fears and their worries in a way that is, like, gonna be unconditionally
Speaker:
00:45:21
accepted and not be triggering. And so
Speaker:
00:45:25
that can also be a really helpful thing. But, yeah, the course dives into, you
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00:45:29
know, coming lots of, you know, reflections. It's opportunities
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00:45:32
to to do sections together with the co parent
Speaker:
00:45:36
or or to be done by yourselves separately or just to be done by
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00:45:40
yourself to then be able to offer this to your partner.
Speaker:
00:45:44
And it talks about, yeah, the why why it's stressful and difficult to be
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00:45:48
in a relationship and why aware parenting is important to you and what
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00:45:52
you want for your relationship and how to resource
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00:45:55
yourself at times of conflict and how to support your children at
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00:45:59
times of conflict and how to learn to be offering
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00:46:03
compassionate listening to your partner and, you know, how to how
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00:46:06
to work together as a team. So it kind of dives into all of that.
Speaker:
00:46:10
And it's a, you know, lifetime access. Do it at your own
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00:46:13
pace in whatever order works for you. And,
Speaker:
00:46:18
yeah, I think it's just a really a beautiful way of
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00:46:22
bringing all that we know about Aware Parenting to to the other
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00:46:25
really important relationships in our life, not just the one with our children.
Speaker:
00:46:30
Yes. Because then that enriches the one with our children. Because if we're in conflict
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00:46:34
with with their dad, then that's that is that does
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00:46:38
impact. And, obviously, I'd love to talk to you again about, about
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00:46:41
co parenting with separated parents. That would be another
Speaker:
00:46:45
conversation that would be so helpful. So with your course, it's helpful, you
Speaker:
00:46:49
know, even if your partner's not willing to to do
Speaker:
00:46:53
the course, would it still be valuable for Yep. One
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00:46:56
parent to to do it Yeah. Generally. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker:
00:47:00
You can do it by yourself. Yeah. Yeah. And, I mean, I have a a
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00:47:04
whole section there's a section of the course which is the entire aware everything I've
Speaker:
00:47:07
learned about Aware Parenting in 17 years in 5 minute video,
Speaker:
00:47:11
so you know you really couldn't you couldn't refuse to watch
Speaker:
00:47:15
that one could you? Even if you never want to read a book.
Speaker:
00:47:19
Yeah. So yeah. But, yeah, certainly it's it's
Speaker:
00:47:22
it's fine to be doing it by yourself or with your partner. It just
Speaker:
00:47:26
it would help you to then interact and communicate and
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00:47:30
connect with your partner in a way that is more conducive to,
Speaker:
00:47:35
to have less rupture and to have more awareness and and more connection
Speaker:
00:47:39
and, yeah, and and to be supporting your children when there's
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00:47:43
conflicts. Because, of course, that's the other thing. It like you said, if there's conflict
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00:47:46
between the parents, that usually creates big feelings for our
Speaker:
00:47:50
children, which means that their behavior is likely to be more difficult and challenging. And
Speaker:
00:47:53
so how to how to sort of break that sort of
Speaker:
00:47:57
spiral and to to bring in more support for our
Speaker:
00:48:01
children, more support for us and more support for our partner at the same
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00:48:05
time. Yeah. Love that. What a great place
Speaker:
00:48:08
to end. Thank you, Jos. That's been so, so great. And I
Speaker:
00:48:12
can just feel there's such richness in, in your program that, you know, if
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00:48:16
you're, if you're wanting to, to in enhance your
Speaker:
00:48:19
relationship and improve your relationship with your partner because it's
Speaker:
00:48:23
it's beneficial obviously for you, for them and for your family unit as a
Speaker:
00:48:27
whole. Yeah. I highly recommend Josie's course. Josie, can you tell people where they
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00:48:31
can find you? Sure. So, I have a website, aware
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00:48:34
parenting.com.au, and I have a courses page on there,
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00:48:38
which my parenting, partnering Aware Partnering and Parenthood
Speaker:
00:48:42
course is on. Don't why I called it something that's so difficult to say. But
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00:48:45
anyway, and I also share on social media we're at,
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00:48:49
Aware Parenting. No, I'd yes Aware Parenting with Joss. And I
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00:48:52
have a podcast Aware Parenting I have 2 podcasts actually. Aware Parenting
Speaker:
00:48:56
Stories and the Aware Parenting Natural Learning podcast. So with Mary and Rose.
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00:49:00
So, yeah, I can be found in lots of places. Lots of
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00:49:04
places. Well, I highly recommend. I'll obviously post links in the show
Speaker:
00:49:07
notes and on my page. So, yeah. Thank you so much, Jos. It's been such
Speaker:
00:49:11
a lovely conversation and, there's such
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00:49:14
richness to it and depth that, really encourage people to
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00:49:18
to check out your work in your course because, it is so
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00:49:21
needed. Because it's like the second thing that people talk
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00:49:25
to me about is, like, obviously, the relationship with their pair with their children
Speaker:
00:49:29
and then partner work comes up. So, yeah, it's such a vital
Speaker:
00:49:33
part of parenting. So thank you, Jos. Well, thanks so much, Helen. It's
Speaker:
00:49:37
such a pleasure to speak with you again.
00:01:09
Hello and
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00:01:10
welcome
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00:01:20
to parenting with play this week. I'm so thrilled to have the lovely
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00:01:23
Joss Golden from WA in
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00:01:27
Australia. And Joss is a fellow Aware Parenting
Speaker:
00:01:30
instructor. She's also a level 2 parenting instructor Aware Parenting which is
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00:01:34
fantastic, and has a background in psychology and
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00:01:38
counseling. And today's topic is one I'm sure
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00:01:41
many of you can relate to is how to
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00:01:45
manage parenting with your partner. And Joss actually has a
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00:01:48
fabulous course all about this, but I really wanted to talk to her today
Speaker:
00:01:52
because if you're like me, there are times
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00:01:56
when you wanna do something different to what the father of your
Speaker:
00:02:00
children want to do, what my husband wants to do. And so how do
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00:02:03
we best manage that? And so I'm really excited to have
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00:02:07
a conversation with Jos all about this. So if you're struggling
Speaker:
00:02:11
with how to be on the same page, or you wanna do something differently, or
Speaker:
00:02:14
just conflict arise arises within your relationship
Speaker:
00:02:19
about parenting. Jos is your woman. So Jos, welcome. It's so good to have
Speaker:
00:02:22
you here. Oh, thanks so much, Helena. It's a pleasure to talk to you about
Speaker:
00:02:26
this. It comes up so often with clients. Pretty much every session,
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00:02:30
somebody's having some kind of challenge navigating
Speaker:
00:02:33
parenting with another parent. It's it's not
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00:02:37
easy. It's not and especially because as
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00:02:40
moms, we're the ones who generally have done the research,
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00:02:44
who sort of really immersed ourselves into this world
Speaker:
00:02:48
and wanting to figure out a better way of doing
Speaker:
00:02:52
things. And then often our partners are like, what?
Speaker:
00:02:56
Certainly with my husband's like, oh, okay. So we're co sleeping now. Okay. So we're
Speaker:
00:03:00
doing this now. And, you know, that can just there can be a bit of
Speaker:
00:03:04
a disconnect between those of us who are really heavily researching and
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00:03:08
reading and learning, and our partner who may not who's just sort
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00:03:11
of happy sometimes to go along with what we wanna do, but
Speaker:
00:03:15
just not as involved. And so, yeah,
Speaker:
00:03:19
like you, I have clients who just go, well, is there any point me even
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00:03:22
doing this approach? Because if my partner's not doing it, does it matter? So
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00:03:25
talk me through how how do we help up how do we help both of
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00:03:29
us get I was gonna say how do we help our partner get on the
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00:03:31
same page as us, but that's probably setting us up for conflict in the first
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00:03:34
place, isn't it? So how would you recommend just starting
Speaker:
00:03:39
that sort of to help us get get to
Speaker:
00:03:43
be on the same page wherever that same page is?
Speaker:
00:03:47
Yeah. I mean, I would like to say as well that I I also have
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00:03:49
clients who are fathers who are really passionate about Aware Parenting, who are struggling
Speaker:
00:03:53
with the mothers of their children not being on board, so it can work both
Speaker:
00:03:56
ways but generally it is this way around and it becomes
Speaker:
00:04:00
very frustrating for people to be doing lots of work, to be
Speaker:
00:04:04
reading all all the books, to be listening to the podcasts and
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00:04:07
doing the courses and really diving deep into this beautiful approach
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00:04:12
and finding that their partner is really reluctant to, to do any of that
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00:04:16
research or doesn't appreciate, the work that
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00:04:19
they're doing or is just on a very different page and
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00:04:23
is parenting from their own, how they were parented and how they were
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00:04:27
raised without giving that much thought to it. So it is often really
Speaker:
00:04:30
challenging and I think, I mean, there are lots of things that people can
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00:04:34
do to to get onto the same page as their partners or or to
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00:04:38
to work together as a team in parenting in a way that is
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00:04:42
functional and healthy and conscious and aware. But
Speaker:
00:04:46
I think really the first thing is to for people to get really
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00:04:49
clear about why they want to do parenting this way
Speaker:
00:04:54
and why it matters because then you can,
Speaker:
00:04:58
you can decide that you're going to adopt lots of strategies in order
Speaker:
00:05:02
to be able to support the family dynamics to work really well but it's really
Speaker:
00:05:06
useful to have this like guiding light that you keep coming back to
Speaker:
00:05:10
that says, no actually this is really important to me and this is actually really
Speaker:
00:05:13
non negotiable because this is what I really value about it. And it
Speaker:
00:05:17
also then really helps you to be able to explain that to your partner
Speaker:
00:05:21
or to your parents or to whoever else you're dealing with,
Speaker:
00:05:25
why you're doing what you're doing, why it matters and why you're so passionate
Speaker:
00:05:29
about it, even to then come back to that, yeah, in tricky times.
Speaker:
00:05:32
So I think that can be a really helpful place to start and the other
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00:05:36
thing I think that's always the most important in all of this
Speaker:
00:05:39
is for moms to be getting lots of listening themselves because
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00:05:43
even if your partner is quite on board it's inevitable
Speaker:
00:05:47
that, having children is going to alter
Speaker:
00:05:51
and influence the dynamic of your relationship and change the way
Speaker:
00:05:55
you relate to your partner. Becoming a mother changes who we
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00:05:58
are as mothers and so it's inevitably
Speaker:
00:06:02
going to have some effect on our relationships too. And so
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00:06:05
even if you're in a wonderful relationship with a partner who reads all the books
Speaker:
00:06:09
and does all the courses with you, there are still going to be lots of
Speaker:
00:06:12
times when we need listening and support to to be
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00:06:16
able to express the big feelings that we have about partnering,
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00:06:20
parenting together with somebody else or about our partner when we have
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00:06:24
tricky moments or just the fact that, you know, parenting is really stressful and
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00:06:28
exhausting in the early days and so that's a
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00:06:31
perfect storm for creating more conflict between us and our partners when we're exhausted
Speaker:
00:06:35
and overwhelmed and juggling all the different things that we're doing. So it's
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00:06:39
so important for everybody in the relationship but particularly
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00:06:43
the one who's driving this way of being, To be getting lots and lots
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00:06:47
of listening and support and opportunity to offload the
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00:06:50
stresses and the challenges, to dive into some of the
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00:06:54
younger parts of us that get touched and that can be often so painful
Speaker:
00:06:58
and often in relationship with our partner,
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00:07:02
and the parts that just get really fed up with with them and the way
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00:07:05
that they behave towards the children sometimes, or the way that they don't help, or
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00:07:09
the fact that, you know we're doing it harder than they are, or you
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00:07:12
know all of the, all of those parts, and the parts
Speaker:
00:07:16
that have to kind of re identify who we are
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00:07:20
as women when we become mothers. Many of us, you know, had
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00:07:23
careers or we had all kinds of different interests and hobbies that we
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00:07:27
were involved in and becoming a mother changes all that too. So
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00:07:31
I'd say those are my 2 biggest tips which don't really
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00:07:35
involve the partner of our children at all in order for us to be
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00:07:38
able to work towards having,
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00:07:42
relationships be as connected and conscious and as smooth
Speaker:
00:07:45
and easy as possible. Yeah. Those are
Speaker:
00:07:49
brilliant. I mean, the listening time is so
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00:07:52
powerful. And, when I'm working
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00:07:56
with clients and just saying because they go, oh, well, I can talk to my
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00:07:59
husband about things. And I'm going, it's so much more beneficial
Speaker:
00:08:03
if you talk to somebody outside of your relationship. Because not
Speaker:
00:08:07
only do you want to sort of perhaps just have a vent about your partner,
Speaker:
00:08:11
but also I found that when I was complaining about my kids to my
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00:08:15
husband, it would wind him up as well. And so he would then get more
Speaker:
00:08:19
annoyed about the situation, whereas I just actually needed to vent to him, and
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00:08:22
then perhaps for him to react calmly. But it's so beneficial to
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00:08:26
talk to somebody outside of your relationship. So you can just offload everything there,
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00:08:30
isn't it? Rather than because it doesn't take much, you know, you're
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00:08:34
holding it together all day with your kids or, you know, however long you are
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00:08:37
with your children, and then your partner comes in and prop
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00:08:41
says something minor. And because you've been holding it in, because you're
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00:08:45
being so patient and wonderful with your children, And then they
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00:08:48
say the slightest thing and you can just easily just go off,
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00:08:53
which, you know, obviously doesn't help the relationship. So, yeah,
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00:08:56
that point about having that external listening is
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00:09:00
so, so valuable, particularly
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00:09:04
because we talk about it in relation to our children. They're like, you know, go
Speaker:
00:09:06
and vent about your children and, you know, work through what comes up for you
Speaker:
00:09:10
about your children, but it's so powerful to also do it about your partner
Speaker:
00:09:13
as well. Yeah. And I really like that you said that too
Speaker:
00:09:17
that often when we are if we're trying to do listening time with our partner,
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00:09:20
it does often create conflict between you. It's it's
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00:09:24
not it's much harder to offer unconditional
Speaker:
00:09:28
listening and empathy to your partner in that kind of way
Speaker:
00:09:32
or or for them to be able to do that for you and not to
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00:09:35
be triggered and activated by things you might be saying about the children or
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00:09:38
vice versa. And it's quite easy for those conversations
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00:09:42
to, yeah, to feel not as
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00:09:45
supportive as it as it would be to be sharing with somebody who's outside of
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00:09:49
the family and it's really important that the person you're sharing with also understands that
Speaker:
00:09:52
we're parenting and understands the importance of this kind of approach too
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00:09:56
because then they can say, you know, they can see that obviously
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00:10:00
you you really love your partner. You're just having a whinge about them or, you
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00:10:03
know, that you you you're most of the time your relationship's
Speaker:
00:10:07
great, it's just that when you're coming to share. So you can be really free
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00:10:11
to just share from your heart about whatever it is that wants to be shared
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00:10:14
in that moment without upsetting anybody, without creating
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00:10:18
any kind of conflict or difficulty down the track. It's just a
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00:10:22
safe place to to offload the stress and to receive that
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00:10:25
kind of unconditional support, which then enables us to
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00:10:29
come back and communicate with our partners and communicate with the children in a way
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00:10:33
that is actually more likely to be the way that we wanna be communicating.
Speaker:
00:10:37
Yeah. Yeah. It's it's such a
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00:10:41
I just keep saying this, but it's not just aware of parenting. It's aware of
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00:10:45
living. It's a way of being with everybody around
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00:10:48
us, including our partners. That is,
Speaker:
00:10:52
Yeah. It's such an important part. So, yeah, I love I
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00:10:56
love that. And, I remember because
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00:11:00
it's very difficult also for our partners. If we have
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00:11:04
I remember explaining this to some medical students, some obstetrician obstetricians in
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00:11:08
training going, you know, before we have our baby, we're so in love with our
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00:11:11
partner. And then when we have our baby, we fall in love with
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00:11:14
them. And it can be quite hard to
Speaker:
00:11:18
hold space for 2 people that you love, particularly at that
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00:11:21
intense time when you've just had a baby and every your whole world has
Speaker:
00:11:25
just changed. And it and it's hard
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00:11:29
to navigate that without,
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00:11:32
without excluding your partner sometimes. It can be, you know, being with our
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00:11:36
baby can be so all consuming. And yes, we want help. And yes, of course,
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00:11:40
we still, you know, love our partner, but it's
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00:11:44
a I was quite struck by how different I
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00:11:47
felt afterwards because I I knew I was gonna love my baby,
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00:11:51
but I was just suddenly really consumed by my baby. And my baby
Speaker:
00:11:54
was number 1. Whereas before that, my husband was number 1. And so that
Speaker:
00:11:58
just that shift can be a really tricky time to to
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00:12:02
then renegotiate the relationship in a way and and refind
Speaker:
00:12:06
your footing with your partner. Yeah.
Speaker:
00:12:09
Absolutely. And you throw into that sleep deprivation and
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00:12:13
exhaustion and and all of the stress of of what you're going
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00:12:16
through. And it is it is a really hard time and of course it impacts
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00:12:20
the dynamics and often we feel
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00:12:23
quite overwhelmed. Well, first of all, sometimes we feel very
Speaker:
00:12:27
overwhelmed by the the joy and the love and the tenderness and all of those
Speaker:
00:12:30
needs of ours that are now getting met by this baby that we are lovingly
Speaker:
00:12:34
tending to and holding and cuddling and all that kind of stuff, and so those
Speaker:
00:12:38
needs in terms of receiving that kind of love and affection from our partner change.
Speaker:
00:12:42
And then we also get the sense where we're physically kind of a bit touched
Speaker:
00:12:45
out sometimes where we just need a bit of space and and at the end
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00:12:49
of the day and the baby's gone to sleep and then our partner wants a
Speaker:
00:12:52
cuddle and we're like, well, actually, I've had enough cuddles for one day. Thank you
Speaker:
00:12:55
very much. And so that changes that dynamic too. So
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00:12:59
it's it's a lot to be to be working through
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00:13:03
and like you say, their role in in the relationship is is
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00:13:07
a difficult one initially because they have
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00:13:10
all the the jobs and that they can support us with
Speaker:
00:13:14
around managing the home and managing everything that we're doing in the home.
Speaker:
00:13:18
But in terms of actually looking after the baby that is our,
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00:13:21
us, often our sole focus especially if we're the ones who are breastfeeding
Speaker:
00:13:25
and that kind of thing. And so it can be quite hard for partners
Speaker:
00:13:29
to, kind of, know where they fit into this new picture.
Speaker:
00:13:32
And so I think, yeah, being aware of that can can be
Speaker:
00:13:36
helpful for the mothers and fathers in a
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00:13:39
relationship to to understand the shifting dynamics between them and
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00:13:43
how how the next chapter of your relationship is going to look
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00:13:47
different to how it looked just before the baby was born.
Speaker:
00:13:51
Yes. Yeah. And that changed. Like, my husband was, I
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00:13:55
don't think, fully realizing that we were gonna go down the
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00:14:00
bed sharing, Aware Parenting, Attachment Parenting
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00:14:03
route. You know, he married one person and then suddenly is
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00:14:07
now sort of, you know, having another aspect of that person.
Speaker:
00:14:11
And it is it's a hard it can be a hard shift to go along
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00:14:14
with. But I mean, obviously, they're caught up in the excitement and exhaustion of a
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00:14:18
baby as well. And and sometimes they're quite happy to just go along.
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00:14:21
But when you then come to the point of
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00:14:26
conflict, and it could be in that it might not be in the
Speaker:
00:14:29
baby stage, but there can be conflict particularly around whether to do the
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00:14:33
self soothing method or, or before I discovered
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00:14:37
Aware Parenting, you know, the constant feeding and holding and jiggling method. And
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00:14:41
that's why I think Aware Parenting is just so helpful for relationships
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00:14:44
as well because you can be with your baby and then you don't have to,
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00:14:47
you know, there's, there's a structure around how you help your baby
Speaker:
00:14:51
sleep better. But,
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00:14:54
it's when you get to that conflict, that sort of crunch time going, no.
Speaker:
00:14:58
I I don't agree with that or,
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00:15:02
sort of over time, the conflict might arise that
Speaker:
00:15:06
can that can ultimately lead to the breakdown in relationships. But how would you
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00:15:09
recommend then navigating? Like, I mean, I like how you're
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00:15:13
saying the why, but say you're you do come at it from
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00:15:17
different angles and, you know, no, I want to do the
Speaker:
00:15:20
self soothing method. No, I want to do aware parenting method. You know, how would
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00:15:24
you help couples navigate that?
Speaker:
00:15:27
Yeah. Well, I think that's a really, really challenging thing and it depends on
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00:15:31
how the dynamic was in your before you had a baby too
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00:15:35
and, you know, some, some relationships are very sort of 5050
Speaker:
00:15:39
even and some relationships have one person relationship who's much more
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00:15:43
dominant than the other in terms of all the decision making. And so
Speaker:
00:15:46
that will obviously impact how how that process goes,
Speaker:
00:15:51
but I think it's really helpful to come back to your why around Aware Parenting
Speaker:
00:15:54
so that you can decide what what is and what isn't a
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00:15:58
negotiable thing for you, and what what you are a
Speaker:
00:16:01
100% committed to, and and not willing to compromise on,
Speaker:
00:16:05
and what you are willing to compromise on. And obviously all you can
Speaker:
00:16:09
do in that relationship is to do how you're going to do the parenting. You
Speaker:
00:16:13
can't make, you know, you can lead a horse to water but you can't
Speaker:
00:16:16
make anybody else to parent the way you want them to,
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00:16:20
but you can be really clearly communicating why this is
Speaker:
00:16:23
important to you, and you can be respectful conversations and and
Speaker:
00:16:27
keep coming back and visiting it and exploring. And, of course, with the Aware Parenting
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00:16:31
perspective, we can often understand that it's
Speaker:
00:16:34
likely if if our partner is wanting to do things in
Speaker:
00:16:38
a very sort of authoritarian way, for example, or wanting to do cry
Speaker:
00:16:42
it out, that kind of approach to baby
Speaker:
00:16:45
sleep training, then we can understand that
Speaker:
00:16:49
there's almost certainly their own trauma underneath that that is driving their
Speaker:
00:16:53
behavior. So it might be possible for us to be deeply
Speaker:
00:16:56
compassionate about why they are choosing to do it
Speaker:
00:17:00
that way and making different choices to us. But in
Speaker:
00:17:04
the end, each person has to decide
Speaker:
00:17:08
what they are willing to compromise on in that
Speaker:
00:17:11
relationship and to keep trying their best to explain why you want to do
Speaker:
00:17:15
it. But I know that in the end if, I mean, yeah,
Speaker:
00:17:19
my partner and I have been together for many years, but if he had not
Speaker:
00:17:22
been, and it was all driven by me, the Aware Parenting and the Attachment
Speaker:
00:17:26
Parenting too but if he had not been willing to parent in
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00:17:29
that way or at least allow me to parent in that
Speaker:
00:17:33
way, that that would have been that I don't see how he could have come
Speaker:
00:17:37
back from that. So sometimes sometimes it is the end of a
Speaker:
00:17:40
relationship and and that, of course, is really complicated and incredibly
Speaker:
00:17:45
painful. But it just depends on what what
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00:17:49
is your driving priority when
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00:17:52
it comes to raising your children and what you're willing to compromise on and what
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00:17:56
you're not. Yeah. Because it
Speaker:
00:18:00
it it's so important. I mean, obviously we know this
Speaker:
00:18:03
and everybody listening to this is how we raise our children and how we are
Speaker:
00:18:06
with them and it and,
Speaker:
00:18:11
it's very hard to then give give up that. So, you know, where I
Speaker:
00:18:15
came to with my husband was, I do Aware
Speaker:
00:18:18
Parenting and he's a great dad who doesn't necessarily follow Aware
Speaker:
00:18:22
Parenting, but he's a great loving father.
Speaker:
00:18:27
But I just, you know but it gives me the doesn't give me the space.
Speaker:
00:18:30
It is not averse to me doing,
Speaker:
00:18:34
you know, the listening in arms and and crying in arms and and all of
Speaker:
00:18:38
that approach. But it doesn't mean that you have to be on exactly the same
Speaker:
00:18:41
page. But I think it's allowing that whilst
Speaker:
00:18:45
staying true to the principles. You know, because if my husband was
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00:18:49
abusive, then of course we wouldn't be that. But
Speaker:
00:18:53
I think I sometimes come across, often come across well, if I'm
Speaker:
00:18:57
not if my husband's or my partner's not gonna do Aware Parenting, is there
Speaker:
00:19:01
any point me doing Aware Parenting? And I really like how you're saying, you know,
Speaker:
00:19:04
as long as we can follow that approach,
Speaker:
00:19:09
then then that that well, then that's often enough. And then we
Speaker:
00:19:12
don't have to have the other person exactly doing exactly the steps. But
Speaker:
00:19:16
and but having that that family unit where
Speaker:
00:19:20
that's okay to to do that. Don't know if I'm saying this quite right, but
Speaker:
00:19:24
you'd, clearly. But it it's okay
Speaker:
00:19:28
for your partner not to do exactly what you want them to do or what
Speaker:
00:19:31
you're doing. As long as you are following this approach and you are still within
Speaker:
00:19:34
a, you know, a loving relationship, you can still make Aware Parenting work
Speaker:
00:19:38
without the other person having to do exactly the
Speaker:
00:19:42
steps precisely. Yeah, absolutely. And it's such a
Speaker:
00:19:46
powerful approach that of course we can always,
Speaker:
00:19:50
be making a significant, a massive difference to our children's
Speaker:
00:19:53
lives by practicing this even if it's only one of us who's doing that in
Speaker:
00:19:56
the family. And when we understand all the different strategies that we
Speaker:
00:20:00
can use in Aware Parenting, we can bring that to our children's
Speaker:
00:20:03
relationship with their other part, their other parent as well and
Speaker:
00:20:07
so, you know, if our children, if our husband, for example, has just
Speaker:
00:20:11
got really angry with the children then we can go and listen to their feelings
Speaker:
00:20:14
about that or, you know, if our husband is really great
Speaker:
00:20:18
at attachment play but isn't very good at listening to feelings
Speaker:
00:20:22
then we can divide up the the way that we're gonna offer
Speaker:
00:20:25
these strategies in a way that plays to everybody's strength. Or if we
Speaker:
00:20:29
have times when we don't have capacity and our partner is willing in those moments
Speaker:
00:20:33
to take over and support but most of the time we're doing the listening,
Speaker:
00:20:37
then that of course is enough, it's more than enough. And I think, you know,
Speaker:
00:20:40
it's really helpful to remember that any time you're offering your
Speaker:
00:20:44
children attachment play, any time that you are listening to their feelings,
Speaker:
00:20:48
any time you are rewinding with them after conflict or after challenges,
Speaker:
00:20:52
these are all deeply significant things that we're doing. So there
Speaker:
00:20:56
is no idea of this sort of perfect family who are
Speaker:
00:21:00
lovingly offering Aware Parenting all the time and that's what we're all aiming
Speaker:
00:21:03
for. We're just navigating our way through the messiness of
Speaker:
00:21:06
life doing the best we can and listening to feelings when we
Speaker:
00:21:10
can, and playing when we can, and rewinding when
Speaker:
00:21:14
we can't. And, you know, that's that's very
Speaker:
00:21:18
significant in terms of what our children are experiencing in their childhood.
Speaker:
00:21:21
So it's not that it has to be perfect or else there's no point in
Speaker:
00:21:24
doing it. It's just that life is always messy and
Speaker:
00:21:28
difficult and
Speaker:
00:21:33
heartbreak and we can navigate all of that as
Speaker:
00:21:36
long as we're getting the support and listening that we need so that we can
Speaker:
00:21:40
then hold space for our children to to share their
Speaker:
00:21:44
feelings and to integrate and to heal from any experiences that they
Speaker:
00:21:47
have that are unpleasant as a result of any conflict between us and our
Speaker:
00:21:51
partner. I think that's such such an empower
Speaker:
00:21:55
an important point because again, many people can think, oh,
Speaker:
00:21:58
well, there's this perfect family where both parents,
Speaker:
00:22:02
you know, do attachment play and listen to all feelings. And,
Speaker:
00:22:06
you know, when our own family falls short, we go, oh gosh. Well
Speaker:
00:22:10
then that means I'm not doing it properly. And so, you know, your your
Speaker:
00:22:14
point about do what we can do because we're not perfect.
Speaker:
00:22:18
So it's not there is no perfect aware
Speaker:
00:22:22
parenting family. We all stuff up. We all have times of stress
Speaker:
00:22:26
and, you know, needing to repair with our children.
Speaker:
00:22:31
And as as long as we can do that when we can,
Speaker:
00:22:34
that is that's what's going to help. We don't have to because
Speaker:
00:22:38
it can get to a real point of conflict going, well, just listen
Speaker:
00:22:42
to their crying if you listen, you know, and that that sort of,
Speaker:
00:22:46
perhaps inability by our partner to want to listen or
Speaker:
00:22:50
to be able to listen or to do the things that we think
Speaker:
00:22:54
that they should be doing, that can become a real source of conflict.
Speaker:
00:22:58
Whereas for me, there was a lot of just letting
Speaker:
00:23:01
that go, knowing what a great dad he
Speaker:
00:23:05
is, but I'm the one who listens to to feelings. And
Speaker:
00:23:09
but it took me a while to get there because I was so cause I
Speaker:
00:23:12
knew how powerful it was. So I was like, right, can you do this? Also
Speaker:
00:23:15
because I'd had enough, you know, I wanted support in there. And so for me,
Speaker:
00:23:18
when I got to a point of, okay, well, this is just what I do.
Speaker:
00:23:21
I listen to upset feelings. And then that really decreased the
Speaker:
00:23:25
tension between me and my husband because I was like, well, that's okay
Speaker:
00:23:29
because he doesn't have to because I am, and
Speaker:
00:23:32
that is that is gonna be enough. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker:
00:23:36
That really takes a lot of the pressure off, doesn't it? And I think what
Speaker:
00:23:40
the other thing that's really lovely about Aware Parenting is it teaches us that there's
Speaker:
00:23:43
always a legitimate reason for behavior for our children
Speaker:
00:23:47
but there's also always a legitimate reason for behavior from our partners
Speaker:
00:23:50
too. And so when we can bring that perspective and for
Speaker:
00:23:54
ourselves as well of course and to be looking at that lovely list of 3
Speaker:
00:23:58
that we often bring to our children, you know, their needs for information,
Speaker:
00:24:02
their unmet needs and their, accumulated feelings,
Speaker:
00:24:05
and we can be thinking of that same framework for ourselves
Speaker:
00:24:09
and thinking of that same framework for our partners. So, you know, perhaps perhaps
Speaker:
00:24:13
we can have
Speaker:
00:24:23
I really love about it and this is why I think it works and this
Speaker:
00:24:26
is how I understand it. Would you like to know more? Does that
Speaker:
00:24:30
make sense to you? Do you have any questions? So that there
Speaker:
00:24:33
there needs for understanding and now there is so much information out there and that
Speaker:
00:24:37
I've had, you know, that we've got, like, short, I've got a short
Speaker:
00:24:41
course, you know, there's lots of information now that's presented in the way
Speaker:
00:24:44
that even the most reluctant partner would be willing to listen to a
Speaker:
00:24:48
20 minute podcast, for example. But, so to ensure that
Speaker:
00:24:52
they are getting the information that they need and that they're willing to receive,
Speaker:
00:24:56
can be super helpful. And then looking at needs and having conversations together
Speaker:
00:25:00
around needs. You know, what are your unmet needs? They're never gonna be able to
Speaker:
00:25:03
show up and be the father we want them to be if they've got
Speaker:
00:25:07
endless unmet needs and never taking time for themselves and and
Speaker:
00:25:10
either at work or at home with the children, but never actually
Speaker:
00:25:15
having a break and tending to themselves. So, yeah, again, having
Speaker:
00:25:18
conversations about that. What are your main unmet needs at the moment? Mine
Speaker:
00:25:22
are this. How can we find ways to be creative in our family to support
Speaker:
00:25:26
us both, to have some time, to support you to get time away from
Speaker:
00:25:30
the family, tending to yourself and doing what you love and the same for me
Speaker:
00:25:33
as well. And really prioritizing the importance of that because
Speaker:
00:25:36
we then have so much more capacity and so much more likelihood
Speaker:
00:25:40
to be able to handle the the demands of parenting.
Speaker:
00:25:44
And then the third thing is around listening to feelings and our own
Speaker:
00:25:48
feelings and and our partners and often our partners, I mean, as
Speaker:
00:25:51
men, most of our partners grew up in a culture where feelings
Speaker:
00:25:55
were not tolerated from boys, they had this
Speaker:
00:25:59
imprint around, you know, that it's, you know, it's not
Speaker:
00:26:02
it's not okay for boys to cry. And so most of them grew up in
Speaker:
00:26:06
this culture without ever receiving the listening
Speaker:
00:26:10
that they need. And most of us as mothers get the
Speaker:
00:26:13
chance to come together with other mothers and to share,
Speaker:
00:26:17
but most fathers are entirely on their own from other fathers and aren't
Speaker:
00:26:21
connecting with other fathers and aren't getting spaces to share and be
Speaker:
00:26:24
vulnerable and to express how they feel and have a lifetime
Speaker:
00:26:28
of unheard tears inside them. So it's inevitable
Speaker:
00:26:32
that there are going to be times when they have big feelings and as we
Speaker:
00:26:35
know from Aware Parenting, when they have big feelings, they're either going to go into
Speaker:
00:26:39
that hyper arousal response and become angry and aggressive
Speaker:
00:26:42
and, you know, agitated or they're gonna go into
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00:26:46
dissociation and switch off and and zone out and go
Speaker:
00:26:49
into their control patterns. And so, you know, even just starting
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00:26:53
to explain that, even just starting to encourage our partners
Speaker:
00:26:57
to to be getting some kind of doing something that
Speaker:
00:27:00
that supports their nervous system to be regulated, doing something
Speaker:
00:27:04
that supports them to be tending to themselves and the the sore parts in
Speaker:
00:27:08
them that come up. Even if it's just having the
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00:27:12
opportunity to talk to us and we can be a bit of a listening partner
Speaker:
00:27:15
for them for things that come up, is really, really helpful because they
Speaker:
00:27:18
can't just come to parenting and do parenting and do Aware
Speaker:
00:27:22
Parenting unless these other aspects of the picture are
Speaker:
00:27:25
being addressed for them and that they're getting some kind of
Speaker:
00:27:29
support which is, yeah, as I said, often the first time that
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00:27:33
they've ever received any listening, they've ever had the chance to cry.
Speaker:
00:27:37
I mean I know when my son was born that was one of the only
Speaker:
00:27:40
times I ever saw my husband cry And you know, it's
Speaker:
00:27:43
it's, we all know the power and the healing power of crying and it's
Speaker:
00:27:47
something that, you know, I do regularly to support myself in parenting
Speaker:
00:27:51
but you know that our husbands need the same. They need opportunities
Speaker:
00:27:55
to, to release and to heal their own stuff and to
Speaker:
00:27:59
even at least start to understand that when they're triggered by the
Speaker:
00:28:02
children, there's a reason for that and it's starting to understand
Speaker:
00:28:06
that picture that it's, you know, younger parts of you that are getting touched in
Speaker:
00:28:10
this experience. And even just understanding that
Speaker:
00:28:13
for a man can be a really powerful first step so
Speaker:
00:28:17
that he he's motivated to start
Speaker:
00:28:21
exploring some of that a bit more for himself. And now fortunately, there are
Speaker:
00:28:24
more like men's groups and courses for fathers
Speaker:
00:28:28
and people sharing in social media about about
Speaker:
00:28:32
this aspect. So it is increasingly, I think, gonna be the
Speaker:
00:28:35
case that men will be getting more of the support that they need as fathers.
Speaker:
00:28:38
But certainly in the early days of our parenting journey,
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00:28:42
there there was no support for for fathers at all. So
Speaker:
00:28:46
it's it's really it can make a big
Speaker:
00:28:50
difference to start just being aware of those three aspects and
Speaker:
00:28:53
how we can support more of that for them so that they have more
Speaker:
00:28:57
capacity to to parent in the way that we want them to.
Speaker:
00:29:02
Yes. I I love all of that. And, you
Speaker:
00:29:05
know, we we work so hard on having understanding for our children
Speaker:
00:29:09
and understanding, you know, why they're behaving the way they are, what they're
Speaker:
00:29:13
needing. And we can sometimes be a bit blind
Speaker:
00:29:17
to what our partner is similarly
Speaker:
00:29:20
needing and experiencing and and, you know, those
Speaker:
00:29:23
lifetime of un what did you say it? You know, unheard
Speaker:
00:29:27
tears. I can't remember the exact words you said, but, you know, just that sort
Speaker:
00:29:30
of powerful go, yeah, Men as a whole find this do find
Speaker:
00:29:34
this harder because they haven't had that capacity to to be
Speaker:
00:29:37
heard and listened to in that way. And certainly their fathers weren't at
Speaker:
00:29:41
all. So to
Speaker:
00:29:45
to have grace and understanding that as women, we we
Speaker:
00:29:49
do meet and we do talk. And I mean, I know some women still find
Speaker:
00:29:53
that hard, but as a whole, we are better at that. And and,
Speaker:
00:29:57
the men in our lives don't have that to that degree. Or if they do
Speaker:
00:30:00
catch up, they talk about I mean, it's great stuff for them, but, you
Speaker:
00:30:03
know, it's not necessarily feelings and what's going on, which is
Speaker:
00:30:07
fine. And I think also acknowledging that it is important
Speaker:
00:30:10
for our partners to to go out with their friends.
Speaker:
00:30:14
You know, and to begin with, we can go, would there be I need you
Speaker:
00:30:17
home with me, but actually allowing allowing
Speaker:
00:30:20
again, there's that word.
Speaker:
00:30:24
Being okay with our, with our partners meeting up with their
Speaker:
00:30:28
friends, because that's their support network, even though they're not necessarily talking about
Speaker:
00:30:32
their feelings, but them having that sol you know, maintaining their
Speaker:
00:30:35
solid friendships is so important too. Yes.
Speaker:
00:30:39
Yes. And and play. Sorry. Go on. Play. Yes. Go
Speaker:
00:30:43
on. Well, I was just gonna say it's not be playful if we're not getting
Speaker:
00:30:47
play in our own lives. And I remember a good friend of mine complaining about
Speaker:
00:30:50
her husband going out playing golf regularly. And I'm
Speaker:
00:30:54
going, one day you'll be really pleased that he's going out playing golf. But also
Speaker:
00:30:57
he needs that. You know, that's his space. Because, you know, one of the big
Speaker:
00:31:01
things I say to to women who work with me is, again, what do you
Speaker:
00:31:04
do that's lovely for you? And we, as women, can get so consumed by our
Speaker:
00:31:08
children, that, you know, we go, okay. Well, I don't know
Speaker:
00:31:12
what I what I enjoy doing. And that can be a
Speaker:
00:31:15
block for us being playful with our kids. But so
Speaker:
00:31:19
letting our men in our lives go and have fun so that they can
Speaker:
00:31:23
then come back, recharge, and then play. Go on. Say what you're gonna say about
Speaker:
00:31:26
playing. Yeah. Oh, well, that was it basically, just that it, you know, it is
Speaker:
00:31:29
such an important part of the healing and often for men, it's much easier to
Speaker:
00:31:32
release and heal through laughter and,
Speaker:
00:31:36
and play. So, yeah, bring it on, encourage that, and and
Speaker:
00:31:40
to have playful moments between you because again, often we get, we
Speaker:
00:31:44
get sort of so exhausted by the
Speaker:
00:31:48
the responsibility of parenting and the demands of parenting and the
Speaker:
00:31:51
serious business of raising our children. And so
Speaker:
00:31:55
bringing playful connection and fun and laughter to our relationship
Speaker:
00:31:59
between the 2 of us is also really therapeutic and important
Speaker:
00:32:03
and healing and vital as part of this process and again when we have this
Speaker:
00:32:07
Aware Parenting understanding, we see the power of play with our
Speaker:
00:32:10
children. The same is true for us and the same is true for our partners,
Speaker:
00:32:14
both individually and together. Yes.
Speaker:
00:32:17
I I mean, we need to have special time with our partners. We need to
Speaker:
00:32:21
because I know that whenever I've gone out, you know, you it's so easy to
Speaker:
00:32:24
get irritated by the day to day. Aspects of life.
Speaker:
00:32:29
And then we'd go out on a date night and I'd be like, oh, I
Speaker:
00:32:32
I can remember why I loved you. You know, I can remember, you know, you
Speaker:
00:32:35
can feel it's like whenever I have special time with my children, I can
Speaker:
00:32:39
feel my love for them more. And the same with our
Speaker:
00:32:42
partners. If we it's so important that we do nurture that
Speaker:
00:32:46
relationship and have fun together because otherwise it does just
Speaker:
00:32:50
become a list of who's doing what and have you put the bins out and,
Speaker:
00:32:53
you know, we need to make packed lunches and the day to day humdrum of
Speaker:
00:32:56
life. So to to really prioritise that special time,
Speaker:
00:33:00
whatever we wanna call it, you know, date night. Because then we
Speaker:
00:33:04
reconnect as as each other rather than just as mum and dad,
Speaker:
00:33:07
which can get really boring sometimes, you
Speaker:
00:33:11
know. So it's so important. And it's
Speaker:
00:33:14
again, like with special time, it's an easy thing to drop because
Speaker:
00:33:18
there's so much to do. There's so much, you know, there's always things to do.
Speaker:
00:33:21
So to to go out on date night can sometimes seem like, oh, God.
Speaker:
00:33:25
Oh, really? I'm tired. Can we just stay in and not bother? But actually it
Speaker:
00:33:29
is worth the effort because it's important to feel
Speaker:
00:33:32
that love. Because when we feel that love for a partner, then we we're much
Speaker:
00:33:36
more likely to be able to be patient and to go, oh, you
Speaker:
00:33:40
know, to be more forgiving and to be playful again. And
Speaker:
00:33:43
and it it benefits everybody. Yeah.
Speaker:
00:33:47
Absolutely. And then we can also, from that space of being connected
Speaker:
00:33:51
again to each other, we're more likely to be able to be compassionate towards
Speaker:
00:33:54
them and we're more likely to be able to have these really important conscious conversations
Speaker:
00:33:58
that we need to have again and again and again with our partners
Speaker:
00:34:02
as part of this parenting journey where we might be bringing up things that we're
Speaker:
00:34:06
concerned about about the children or we might be talking about, you know,
Speaker:
00:34:09
challenges that we've been having or or things that went you know,
Speaker:
00:34:13
times when things went a bit dodge, when somebody got angry
Speaker:
00:34:17
or it didn't go the way we wanted it to be or whatever and just,
Speaker:
00:34:20
it's very hard. It's impossible to have conscious and connected and
Speaker:
00:34:24
deliberate conversations from a place of disconnection. So we really need
Speaker:
00:34:28
to be prioritizing that time to come together and to
Speaker:
00:34:32
to feel connected and to feel close again. And like you
Speaker:
00:34:35
say, back in love again, in order to be able to be having these these
Speaker:
00:34:39
important conversations about things that we want or I
Speaker:
00:34:43
noticed that, you know, the other day this happens and you seem to
Speaker:
00:34:46
get really activated. What was going on for you? Is there can I
Speaker:
00:34:50
support you more with that? What would be helpful in future? Or it, you know,
Speaker:
00:34:53
might be that we want to be modeling to our
Speaker:
00:34:57
children, modeling to our partner how we want to be responding to our children and
Speaker:
00:35:01
so we might say, you know, this is how, this is how I do it
Speaker:
00:35:05
sometimes or, you know, I don't know if you noticed but the other day there
Speaker:
00:35:08
was lots of feelings there and I just moved in and was silly and brought
Speaker:
00:35:11
in some play and some choice for a moment and then that really supported them
Speaker:
00:35:14
to get in the car and for us to go and, you know, is that
Speaker:
00:35:17
how how is that something you think you might want to do or, you know,
Speaker:
00:35:19
all of these sorts of conversations where we're trying to support them
Speaker:
00:35:23
to to incorporate more of the strategies of Aware Parenting into their own
Speaker:
00:35:27
parenting, come from these this place
Speaker:
00:35:31
of of connection. And we can't we can't be saying yeah. We can't be
Speaker:
00:35:34
having these conversations at times of of big conflict and stress
Speaker:
00:35:38
between us. I was just gonna say the time
Speaker:
00:35:41
to to show and teach or in a better word
Speaker:
00:35:45
is not in the heat at the moment, which I
Speaker:
00:35:58
to bring up something that might feel a bit
Speaker:
00:36:01
uncomfortable, but at a time when you are feeling more
Speaker:
00:36:06
relaxedness and a bit of distance from a fraught
Speaker:
00:36:10
time, not doing it in the heat of the moment.
Speaker:
00:36:13
Yeah. How would you how would you navigate
Speaker:
00:36:17
if somebody said, well, I'm just not willing to do that. I'm just not
Speaker:
00:36:21
I'm just not gonna do that. I'm not gonna. As in I'm not gonna have
Speaker:
00:36:24
those conversations. Oh, I'm not No. As in you having that conversation and your
Speaker:
00:36:27
partner's going, I'm not gonna listen to crying. I don't wanna do
Speaker:
00:36:31
that. Well, that's, you
Speaker:
00:36:35
know, that's a challenging one, isn't it? And I think, yeah, that's a moment for
Speaker:
00:36:38
you to be getting lots and lots of listening for yourself about all of
Speaker:
00:36:41
that, what that brings up for you. Imagine there's disappointment and
Speaker:
00:36:45
frustration and resentment. There might be rage and and disempowerment.
Speaker:
00:36:49
There might be all kinds of really painful feelings to hear that from your
Speaker:
00:36:53
partner. So, yeah, I think that's a moment to be reaching out
Speaker:
00:36:56
for support and more support and more support until you can get really, really
Speaker:
00:37:00
clear and come back to a place of clarity
Speaker:
00:37:04
about what that means for you, what that means for your relationship, and what that
Speaker:
00:37:08
means for your children. And, yeah, those are the
Speaker:
00:37:11
moments when we need care and we need nurturing and we
Speaker:
00:37:15
need compassion ourselves because that's often that's very, very
Speaker:
00:37:19
painful to hear about if it's something that you really deeply care
Speaker:
00:37:22
about. So, yeah, getting lots of listening and then,
Speaker:
00:37:26
yeah, making making some having having more conversations and
Speaker:
00:37:30
more conversations and and reassuring yourself that it's okay.
Speaker:
00:37:34
It's okay if it's just you who's doing it. And what you want
Speaker:
00:37:38
that to mean for your relationship is that's an individual thing that
Speaker:
00:37:42
depends on, you know, all the other factors that are part of your relationship
Speaker:
00:37:45
too. But, yeah, that's a time just to get a lot of listening for us.
Speaker:
00:37:50
A lot of listening because it can you know, just like with parenting, it
Speaker:
00:37:54
can touch on younger parts of us that were hurt, that were told
Speaker:
00:37:58
no, that might have been dismissed or treated in a way that
Speaker:
00:38:01
we now well, that we now we didn't like at the
Speaker:
00:38:05
time, and we wouldn't tolerate now. And,
Speaker:
00:38:09
and I think it's recognizing that it's not always about what's
Speaker:
00:38:13
happening in the moment that we both come to that conversation
Speaker:
00:38:17
with unhealed hurts, and that can lead us to be more explosive
Speaker:
00:38:20
and more, hurt or more,
Speaker:
00:38:26
Yeah, it it's to understand that there's often
Speaker:
00:38:30
a deeper thing. So for us to go away and to get that listening time
Speaker:
00:38:34
and to go, okay, does this feel familiar? Yes. I remember when I
Speaker:
00:38:37
was spoken to in this way, or I felt this disempowerment
Speaker:
00:38:41
because it's often when we feel really powerless that then
Speaker:
00:38:45
that makes us be more aggressive and more like, well, you have to do this.
Speaker:
00:38:49
And if we can go back and and really start
Speaker:
00:38:52
to look at and heal those earlier parts of us, we can then
Speaker:
00:38:56
come to a conversation that's difficult in a in a more
Speaker:
00:39:00
empowered, genuine genuinely empowered way.
Speaker:
00:39:04
Because with our partner, it does it is more triggering. Like, it's it's
Speaker:
00:39:08
harder and more triggering to have a conversation with them than it is to just,
Speaker:
00:39:11
you know, have a friend because it means so much more and it can represent
Speaker:
00:39:15
so much more. So to really work on those earlier parts
Speaker:
00:39:19
of us can be so profoundly healing.
Speaker:
00:39:22
Yeah. Absolutely. And it often, you know, it's often reminds us
Speaker:
00:39:26
of, you know, the way that our fathers might have spoken to us
Speaker:
00:39:29
or or the way that some of our male teachers might have spoken to us.
Speaker:
00:39:33
And there are lots of layers in this, particularly for women
Speaker:
00:39:36
around the way that they were spoken to by men or
Speaker:
00:39:40
previous relationships that they've had with men where they might have been spoken, you know,
Speaker:
00:39:43
treated in a way that was really hurtful and and there's lots of
Speaker:
00:39:47
accumulated feelings around that too. So, yeah, the more that we're getting
Speaker:
00:39:51
places to be able to share all the different feelings that are coming up,
Speaker:
00:39:54
both in terms of the present moment stresses of being in relationship
Speaker:
00:39:58
with somebody else and those younger parts of us that are being touched
Speaker:
00:40:02
by the way our partner might be speaking to us or or to the children.
Speaker:
00:40:05
It's absolutely crucial. Yeah. It
Speaker:
00:40:09
is. It is. I just don't know how I would do it otherwise, to be
Speaker:
00:40:13
honest. I think it's, it's such an, it's such an invaluable part of my life.
Speaker:
00:40:16
And sometimes I do have to preface going, I love my husband. He's very,
Speaker:
00:40:20
very good dad. And I just need to to have this moment of
Speaker:
00:40:24
venting. And then I always feel so much better for having had that
Speaker:
00:40:28
because then I can go back to a situation a lot calmer
Speaker:
00:40:31
and more or even just more objective and going, just going,
Speaker:
00:40:35
well, this is just something that he's not able to do, and that's okay,
Speaker:
00:40:39
actually. Yeah. Because this is important to me, and I can do this
Speaker:
00:40:42
on my own or not on my own, but I I'm the, you know, I'm
Speaker:
00:40:46
happy. The example in my family is I'm the one who listens to upset
Speaker:
00:40:49
feelings and that's okay. Because
Speaker:
00:40:53
I fully recognize, you know, how my husband was brought up and feelings were
Speaker:
00:40:56
not an acceptable part of his childhood. So
Speaker:
00:41:00
it's it's interesting actually, I think, being with our partners because then we get to
Speaker:
00:41:03
understand their parents a lot more. You can see the
Speaker:
00:41:07
patterns so clearly. Clearly I have no patterns in
Speaker:
00:41:10
my, my life, but I can see them very clearly in his behaviour.
Speaker:
00:41:15
Yes, indeed. My little boy is now
Speaker:
00:41:19
coming in because this is morning time for me and it's getting ready for
Speaker:
00:41:23
school. Just one second, Jeff. Just Yep.
Speaker:
00:42:03
Sorry. Just on the wrap up in 5
Speaker:
00:42:06
minutes. That's tricky. Just getting everything
Speaker:
00:42:09
ready. I'll be out in a minute. It's 5
Speaker:
00:42:13
minutes. Oh, okay. 5 minutes.
Speaker:
00:42:18
Does that feel like we've covered my stuff now? Sorry.
Speaker:
00:42:24
Didn't Yeah. I mean, there are there are lots of, you know, ways that you
Speaker:
00:42:28
can bring more connection and and
Speaker:
00:42:32
strategies and prompt and, you know, conversation
Speaker:
00:42:36
starters and nonviolent communication. You know, bringing all of
Speaker:
00:42:39
those things in can really support more
Speaker:
00:42:43
harmonious interaction with your partner
Speaker:
00:42:47
to even if you can't come to exactly the same page in
Speaker:
00:42:51
parenting to at least be able to navigate the differences in a way
Speaker:
00:42:55
that has you know, is more respectful.
Speaker:
00:42:58
And, I mean, Alisa talks about that as such a central part of
Speaker:
00:43:02
Aware Parenting, having a peaceful conflict resolution and and respectful,
Speaker:
00:43:06
interactions and having meetings and
Speaker:
00:43:13
those things can come into and things like loving limits as well, we can be
Speaker:
00:43:17
offering loving limits to our partners. So really the whole of the Aware
Speaker:
00:43:20
Parenting framework can be applied to our partners too to support
Speaker:
00:43:24
more, yeah, more harmony, more connection, more ease
Speaker:
00:43:28
in in the co parenting relationship. But I think in
Speaker:
00:43:31
the end, really, it all comes down to us getting the support that we
Speaker:
00:43:35
need to be able to tend to those younger parts
Speaker:
00:43:39
of us that get touched in conflict with our partners and
Speaker:
00:43:43
to navigate the stresses in the moment that in ways that bring us
Speaker:
00:43:46
back to to clarity and to connection.
Speaker:
00:43:52
Yeah. I love that. And and whilst retaining,
Speaker:
00:43:56
true to what we really want, you know, that you'd mentioned in the very
Speaker:
00:44:00
beginning about what's your why. Why why have you come to Aware Parenting?
Speaker:
00:44:03
Why are you wanting to do this, and and
Speaker:
00:44:07
retaining connection with that whilst
Speaker:
00:44:11
navigating day to day life.
Speaker:
00:44:14
And I've do you, do you do NVC in your, in your program?
Speaker:
00:44:18
Do you wanna talk a little bit more of just very quickly about your course?
Speaker:
00:44:21
Yeah. And do you incorporate NVC in that and having difficult conversations?
Speaker:
00:44:25
Yes. Yeah. Absolutely. Yeah. So my course is called Aware
Speaker:
00:44:29
Partnering in Parenthood and it's really just about how to bring the
Speaker:
00:44:32
whole framework of Aware Parenting to your relationship with the other parent of your
Speaker:
00:44:36
children. And this is it's suitable for, you know, if
Speaker:
00:44:40
you're married to the parent of your child or if you're separated
Speaker:
00:44:43
or if you're in a blended family or, you know, whatever the individual circumstances
Speaker:
00:44:48
that the course still applies. And,
Speaker:
00:44:51
I think, yeah, we I mean, that's a whole section which talks about how to
Speaker:
00:44:55
how to come onto the same page, and how to use these different techniques
Speaker:
00:44:59
and strategies to support your relationship. And I think what can also be
Speaker:
00:45:02
really helpful sometimes, and I do a lot of work with both parents in
Speaker:
00:45:06
sessions, it can be really helpful to
Speaker:
00:45:09
for your partner to hear it from somebody else rather than from
Speaker:
00:45:13
you and to have an opportunity to express their concerns and their
Speaker:
00:45:17
fears and their worries in a way that is, like, gonna be unconditionally
Speaker:
00:45:21
accepted and not be triggering. And so
Speaker:
00:45:25
that can also be a really helpful thing. But, yeah, the course dives into, you
Speaker:
00:45:29
know, coming lots of, you know, reflections. It's opportunities
Speaker:
00:45:32
to to do sections together with the co parent
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00:45:36
or or to be done by yourselves separately or just to be done by
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00:45:40
yourself to then be able to offer this to your partner.
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00:45:44
And it talks about, yeah, the why why it's stressful and difficult to be
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00:45:48
in a relationship and why aware parenting is important to you and what
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00:45:52
you want for your relationship and how to resource
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00:45:55
yourself at times of conflict and how to support your children at
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00:45:59
times of conflict and how to learn to be offering
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00:46:03
compassionate listening to your partner and, you know, how to how
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00:46:06
to work together as a team. So it kind of dives into all of that.
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00:46:10
And it's a, you know, lifetime access. Do it at your own
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00:46:13
pace in whatever order works for you. And,
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00:46:18
yeah, I think it's just a really a beautiful way of
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00:46:22
bringing all that we know about Aware Parenting to to the other
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00:46:25
really important relationships in our life, not just the one with our children.
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00:46:30
Yes. Because then that enriches the one with our children. Because if we're in conflict
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00:46:34
with with their dad, then that's that is that does
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00:46:38
impact. And, obviously, I'd love to talk to you again about, about
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00:46:41
co parenting with separated parents. That would be another
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00:46:45
conversation that would be so helpful. So with your course, it's helpful, you
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00:46:49
know, even if your partner's not willing to to do
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00:46:53
the course, would it still be valuable for Yep. One
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00:46:56
parent to to do it Yeah. Generally. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
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00:47:00
You can do it by yourself. Yeah. Yeah. And, I mean, I have a a
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00:47:04
whole section there's a section of the course which is the entire aware everything I've
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00:47:07
learned about Aware Parenting in 17 years in 5 minute video,
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00:47:11
so you know you really couldn't you couldn't refuse to watch
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00:47:15
that one could you? Even if you never want to read a book.
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00:47:19
Yeah. So yeah. But, yeah, certainly it's it's
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00:47:22
it's fine to be doing it by yourself or with your partner. It just
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00:47:26
it would help you to then interact and communicate and
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00:47:30
connect with your partner in a way that is more conducive to,
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00:47:35
to have less rupture and to have more awareness and and more connection
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00:47:39
and, yeah, and and to be supporting your children when there's
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00:47:43
conflicts. Because, of course, that's the other thing. It like you said, if there's conflict
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00:47:46
between the parents, that usually creates big feelings for our
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00:47:50
children, which means that their behavior is likely to be more difficult and challenging. And
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00:47:53
so how to how to sort of break that sort of
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00:47:57
spiral and to to bring in more support for our
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00:48:01
children, more support for us and more support for our partner at the same
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00:48:05
time. Yeah. Love that. What a great place
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00:48:08
to end. Thank you, Jos. That's been so, so great. And I
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00:48:12
can just feel there's such richness in, in your program that, you know, if
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00:48:16
you're, if you're wanting to, to in enhance your
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00:48:19
relationship and improve your relationship with your partner because it's
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00:48:23
it's beneficial obviously for you, for them and for your family unit as a
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00:48:27
whole. Yeah. I highly recommend Josie's course. Josie, can you tell people where they
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00:48:31
can find you? Sure. So, I have a website, aware
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00:48:34
parenting.com.au, and I have a courses page on there,
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00:48:38
which my parenting, partnering Aware Partnering and Parenthood
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00:48:42
course is on. Don't why I called it something that's so difficult to say. But
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00:48:45
anyway, and I also share on social media we're at,
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00:48:49
Aware Parenting. No, I'd yes Aware Parenting with Joss. And I
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00:48:52
have a podcast Aware Parenting I have 2 podcasts actually. Aware Parenting
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00:48:56
Stories and the Aware Parenting Natural Learning podcast. So with Mary and Rose.
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00:49:00
So, yeah, I can be found in lots of places. Lots of
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00:49:04
places. Well, I highly recommend. I'll obviously post links in the show
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00:49:07
notes and on my page. So, yeah. Thank you so much, Jos. It's been such
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00:49:11
a lovely conversation and, there's such
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00:49:14
richness to it and depth that, really encourage people to
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00:49:18
to check out your work in your course because, it is so
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00:49:21
needed. Because it's like the second thing that people talk
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00:49:25
to me about is, like, obviously, the relationship with their pair with their children
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00:49:29
and then partner work comes up. So, yeah, it's such a vital
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00:49:33
part of parenting. So thank you, Jos. Well, thanks so much, Helen. It's
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00:49:37
such a pleasure to speak with you again.
