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Speaker 1: Welcome to Parenting out Loud, the podcast of parents who don't always listen to parenting podcasts. We like to take a look at the news, trends and culture and what parents are thinking about.
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Speaker 2: I'm Monique Bowley, I'm Amelia Lester and I'm Stacy Kicks and coming off on today's show, it's being described as the saddest murder case in the world. So why is every mother you know obsessed with it?
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Speaker 1: I've got the case for radical Irwin parenting. I think Australia's top parenting expert is hiding in plain sight in a Safari suit.
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Speaker 3: Actually, And I'm going to tell you about the podcast that I put on when my kids in the bath and I'm sitting on the toilet seat next to them and we're just having a little gab at the end of the day.
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Speaker 4: I love it. Can't wait.
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Speaker 3: But first, Bluie's got a new look and not everyone is pleased about it. A trailer for the new Bluey movie, which is being made by Disney and released a year from now in August twenty twenty seven, just came out and the animation is quite different from the TV show. It looks quite different the trailer is very simple. It's Bluey and Bingo playing keep it uppy with an iconic red balloon, of course. But what struck me about it is that looks very similar to say, a Toy Story. And that's because rather than being in that flat two D the Healer.
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Speaker 4: Family, and now in more of.
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Speaker 3: A three D, more kind of realistic if you can be a family of dogs talking, I've had more realistic universe.
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Speaker 4: It's the Hollywood glow up. Yeah, Louie, Yes, yes, yeah.
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Speaker 3: And while lots of people are very excited for that sort of more more dimensional image, some are having a bit of a hard time with it, so I think to get ahead of it. Louie's creator Jo Brahm, Yeah yeah, was talking about why they made that shift this week.
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Speaker 5: The first short film I ever made in my third year of our college was in three D.
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Speaker 4: It brought the.
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Speaker 5: House down at our screening, and I just thought, I'm going to be a three D animator. And then I spent the rest of my career in two D hand drawn, and I love two D and I love hand drawn, but three D was a thing. And at the same time as I made that film, Toy Story was coming out and it felt like this is my generation of animation. We're always striving to get a beauty of nature in the show, and I wanted to have every tool available to capture a beautiful blade of grass and light rays and all that. And I wanted kids to be able to feel like they could reach in and give these little dogs a scratch on their furry heads.
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Speaker 3: Now that's obviously so cute, and we love Joe and his Australian invention of Bluie. That's made us also proud.
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Speaker 4: Even the background music maybe, Oh.
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Speaker 3: Absolutely, You've got to bring your tisses to the movie. And I'm so excited for the movie. But I find what's interesting about this is that Joe Bram has been wrestling with fame and success in front of us for so long now. Because that final episode of Blue about whether or not they're going to move, It's really about Joe debating am I ready for the big time?
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Speaker 4: Am I ready to go to Hollywood?
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Speaker 3: And I love how he's kind of being open with us in that way through his art.
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Speaker 1: Oh my god, I've never thought about that before. What other messages are you getting from Louis?
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Speaker 3: That final episode was a meditation on whether or not he could accept the success and the accolades and the big time and all the demands that that were put on him. Yes, it would bring him more money, it would bring him more acclaim, but it would also it's a trade off. Like I think for him to then go to Hollywood and take on a Disney movie project, there's trade offs involved in that for him, and I love how he was honest with us about that in that episode. Do they stay? They don't such an interesting stay? They stay in two D? Becausever but not forever?
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Speaker 4: But not Yeah, yeah, that's right.
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Speaker 2: I think we just don't. We don't love change. Yes, you know, like when something kind of is changing in a way that we didn't we didn't choose, it is this hard thing of oh that's not how That's why parenting is so emotionally wrenching because every day has changed.
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Speaker 4: That is so true and so just ding some real truth bombs here. Yeah really are wow.
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Speaker 1: Curious question from me. The way you brought this to the show, Melia, thank you. So interesting was the criticism against the three D Did that happen first and then they released this reel of him talking about it, or like you said something about it being a productive.
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Speaker 3: So yeah, there was a little bit of chatter before the trailer came out about what it would look like. Then the trailer comes out and it's in. It's in this more three D look. And I don't know exactly when they filmed the interview that we played from there, but the comments on that are very divided. Once the trailer came out, people there were two camps, wouldn't you say, Stacy.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, people being like, I don't care give me Bluey in any form that it comes to me, like we know it will be.
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Speaker 4: It has to be too.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, it does look like a richer, more visualous, sumptuous universe does.
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Speaker 2: And then other people going, this isn't my Bluey. I don't know this Bluey.
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Speaker 1: I think it's going to be one of those things that you notice for the first two minutes and then you just forget that it even was any different.
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Speaker 4: Yeah, I'll look. I'll be wrestling you too.
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Speaker 3: For the August twenty twenty seven We'll be Live podcast will be there regardless. Another little in case you missed it this week, cast your mind back to how you felt four weeks after your first baby. Now imagine going on National Live TV with that baby in your arms, in my truck suit that I'm born for four days straight.
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Speaker 4: Yeah, okay, cool, Yeah, I'd look great.
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Speaker 3: Today's show host Sarah Arbo is living what would be my nightmare, but she's looking lovely while doing it. She returned to the morning TV show Couch this week with her four week old Sonny, and I have to say he was remarkably well behaved and she looked remarkably put together. Here's some of what she had to say.
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Speaker 6: Oh my god, we have a child now, and from the moment you first meet them in hospital to you know, the nightly feeds and more daily morning, all the time feeds. Just nursing him is so beautiful, and you just go, this little guy is so dependent on us, and you know, we just want to make him proud and just give him the best start in life.
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Speaker 3: That's what morning TV hosts do so well. They share with us such relatable insights into how you think in any time of life. Like when she said that about the responsibility, Yeah, that's what everyone think. I was just thinking, Wow, that was a really succinct, well put together sentence, something I was not doing for weeks post part even more incredibly, Sarah attended the Logis on Sunday night, which I cannot imagine putting on an evening gown and spanks So for weeks after you have a baby.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, this is a no from me. This is not a criticism of Sarah Arbo by any means. What I want to do here is play the ball and not the man. So what I want to sort of challenge is the idea that she went on that couch, not her doing it or her decision. Right, It's kind of like that the context around her having to go and do that. I think for me this feels suchually feels really gendered, and I think it also speaks to kind of the pressure of retaining relevance in the workplace when you step out and have a baby. Like we know that we already live in a culture where women feel really worried that when they go on maternity leave that they're going to lose relevance, that people are going to forget about them, that they won't maintain the same kind of value in the workplace. So to see her on the couch four weeks postpartum just raankle me.
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Speaker 4: A little bit. Go on, I know what you're going to say, yeah, I don't see a problem with this.
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Speaker 2: I feel like everyone wants to take their baby in and show them off and pretend that they're doing great. Like maybe she is legitimately doing great in every way, but I think you do want to go back and show those people. And I think by extension, they talk about it on morning TV all the time that their audience is their family and they feel this very parasocial relationship with them.
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Speaker 4: So she's just sharing the good news.
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Speaker 1: No, that's very true, and I agree with that. I agree with the parasocial relationship. I agree, but this isn't pop into the workplace and say hi.
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Speaker 4: For five minutes.
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Speaker 1: She's in a makeup chair an hour before she's like, you know, this is a huge undertaking to take a baby in and sit there and smile. And she performed like she was wonderful, and I know the audience would have loved it. I'm more talking about that kind of feeling of like that I'm still here, don't forget about me kind of Maybe I'm overthinking it.
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Speaker 4: I don't know.
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Speaker 1: No, I think the thing that got me sorry to jump in again is that the reason I think it's gendered is like Carl Stefanovic didn't schlep baby Harper into the Today Show couch when he had her, you know, four weeks after he had that baby. And I just think and because no one would have ever expected him to, and yet Sarah Arbo does.
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Speaker 3: I think it's a good point once and I think maybe it's even more heightened for her that feeling, whether or not she's actual feeling it. I think a lot of women do feel that way, and it might be heightened in her case because in the lead up to her taking her parental leave, it was such a charge time at the Today Show with Carl leaving and a lot of controversy, and I just wonder if that wouldn't have heightened that feeling. I've got to get back there, I've got to keep.
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Speaker 4: Things smooth and running.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the pressure that women are under all the time. It's like, you're four weeks go rest be with your baby, Like, yeah, I just felt I know it was probably her choice and it was probably all fine, but just there was that little part of me that thought, I wish she didn't have to do this. Before we get into it, this segment is going to canvas issues of mental illness and infant death. So if that's not something you want in your ears today, please look after yourself and skip forward. We will have the exact time code in the show notes.
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Speaker 2: If you haven't heard the name Lindsey Clancy yet, you are about to hear it everywhere. And why I really wanted to bring this story to the show today is that I haven't seen a story capture the attention of women, particularly mothers, like this in my sixteen years in media. So Lindsay is a thirty six year old nurse and a mother, and she's at the center of what they're describing as the saddest murder trial in the world. And what's unique about this is while Lindsay is on trial for the murder of her three children, which I think all of us can agree is just the most horrific circumstances, she's being met with widespread sympathy. And I have a few theories as to why this is happening, but I wanted to ask, are you two starting to see this story coming into your algorithms a lot?
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Speaker 3: Now?
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Speaker 2: Are you starting to hear your group chats talking about this case?
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Speaker 1: I wasn't, and then I was blissfully ignorant until very late this week, and then because I know you wanted to bring it up, I had to google it. I'm afraid to admit I did. Yea yeah, and now it's everywhere. Now I feel like, how did I miss this?
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Speaker 3: I've been hearing about it, but I had consciously switched off, but it got this week to the point where I couldn't do that anymore. Yeah, and so I do really want to hear from you once we've established the facts. For people like me who are not caught up on it all, why this horrific true crime story has captured the attention of so many women who aren't even normally into true crime.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, And I think people maybe listen to this show as a comfort during postpartum time, and the last thing we would want is for that to hinder you in any way. So please take care of yourself and know that we're thinking of you if that.
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Speaker 4: Is the case.
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Speaker 2: So, if you are aware of all the circumstances, I'm just going to catch you up really quickly on what this story is and what Lindsay is accused of doing.
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Speaker 7: So.
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Speaker 2: Lindsay is accused of murdering her three children, this five year old Cora, three year old Dawson, and eight month old Callan. So they were killed in their home in Massachusetts. Back in twenty twenty three. The court heard that Lindsay's now ex husband Patrick was picking up takeaway while this happened. And it's been heard in court that Lindsay then attempted to die by suicide by self harming and then jumping out of their second story window. She's been left with lifelong injuries from that and she's now in a wheelchair while she's in court at the moment. So Lindsay's defense team, I just want to make this really clear that Lindsay's defense team are not denying that she caused their deaths. Lindsay has admitted to causing their deaths.
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Speaker 1: What they said, so this is not a case of did she or didn't she. No, they're saying she did.
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Speaker 2: Despite what you might be seeing on social media, this is not a case of that. What Lindsay's defense team are saying is that she is not guilty by reason of insanity. So they're citing that this was active postpartum psychosis that caused what happened, and that's that's what's being heard in the court right now, so so far, they're hearing that Lindsay repeatedly attempted to seek help for her worsening mental state and which included intrusive thoughts and depression. The court has heard that she was on a combination of up to thirteen prescribed medications and she raised concerns multiple times that they were hindering her more, that they were making her symptoms worse, and people, including a nanny that worked for the Clancys, testified that Lindsay was a wonderful mother who loved her kids. In fact, no one has said a bad word about Lindsay and the evidence we've heard thus far.
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Speaker 1: She's a former nurse, isn't she.
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Speaker 4: She is, yeah, former midwife.
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Speaker 1: Yeah, And I read an article about how in the post, you know, in the maternity ward, people would ask for her. She was like the top nurse, the best, the most caring, the most loving.
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Speaker 4: Yeah.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's widely been what's been reported inside and outside of the courtroom.
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Speaker 3: But Stacey, what does what has the prosecution had to say about her seeking the help and her raising the flags about the drugs?
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Speaker 2: I think that is that is the thing that they're they're hinging their argument on here is that Lindsay was a victim of a system that allowed her to fall through the crack.
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Speaker 3: So if the defense is saying, look, this was a woman in medical need who was in fact trying to raise the alarm with her doctors about the fact that she was on a lot of medications and maybe they weren't working well together, and that she wasn't feeling herself, what does the prosecution have to counter that with.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, so the prosecutioner trying to prove that she was of sound mind at the time and that she purposely sent Patrick, her now ex husband, out on an errand during that time, so that she could commit the murders.
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Speaker 4: And in fact, she.
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Speaker 2: Took a phone call from him while while he was out he went to the chemist to get medication.
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Speaker 4: For the children. Have we heard the phone call.
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Speaker 2: We haven't heard the phone call. We've just heard that it was fourteen seconds or fifteen seconds, something really short like that, but that they chatted in that time and.
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Speaker 1: Checking on a medication.
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Speaker 4: Yeah, and she sounded normal, distracted.
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Speaker 2: That they might be in the bath, or that she might be in the middle of something, but that she seemed fine.
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Speaker 4: Right, But I mean.
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Speaker 2: Patrick himself, it should be said, is sympathetic to Lindsey and has spoken multiple times previously to the court case about the fact that he's found it in his heart to forgive her. And one of the quotes that always stands out to me is that he said he didn't marry a monster, he married someone who became ill.
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Speaker 4: And that was that big New York piece about Yeah. So he is in support of Lindsay in this kind has.
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Speaker 3: Well stayed that way because I read that he has remarried, he's still taking that stance of sympathy towards her.
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Speaker 4: I believe.
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Speaker 2: So he hasn't kind of spoken about that in the court case now, but he's kind of remade steadfast in that support of her that she was suffering in that time.
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Speaker 1: Discourse around this seems to be kind of split into three really distinct parts. Number one is the true crime obsessive seem to be on this track, and there's a huge conspiracy that actually Patrick he's actually the murderer. We can discount that, But then what we're left with is that Lindsey many many people are siding with her and standing with her and saying this is a woman who was in deep psychological distress and she was let down. And she was a woman who asked for help multiple times and yet still fell through the cracks and was let down by the systems around her and by the people around her. But then there's the third tranch of the internet that's saying, hang on, three children are dead and at her hands. And so no matter what psychological situation is happening here, somebody needs to be kept held to account for this.
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Speaker 4: Yep. So yeah, yeah, absolutely.
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Speaker 2: I think that second point is the crux of why everyone is so invested in this case. And I've been reading a lot about this because, as you said, yeah, so, first of all, online, what you see in the courtroom and what's being presented in the courtroom is very different to what you're seeing on social media. As Mon's just said, then a lot of people on social media will have you believe that her husband did it, which is unfounded in this situation. This case is not about whether he did it or he did it. People are so passionate about this, and I think part of what I'm going to explain is why so in this case, there's a lack of what they call defensive attribution. So doctor Kristen Summer did a great video about this week and link to where she talks about how when a tragedy happens, we like to say a child drowning in a backyard swimming pool, we like to blame it on a person's choices rather than saying it was an unavoidable situation. So we like to say, well, that person wasn't watching their child, and you could avoid that because you could watch your child. So that won't happen in my situation, because I will avoid this by watching my child. And that's how your mind tricks itself into feeling like life is controllable again. But in a case like this, where there's potential postpartum psychosis, we can't comfort ourselves out of that thought because it feels like something that's impossible for us to avoid. And so she explains it as the one way our brain finds a way out is sympathy for Lindsey that we just we can't rationalize it.
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Speaker 3: I feel like this happens again and again in these horrible cases, that we collectively seem to have some idea of how parents should cope in these unimaginable situations.
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Speaker 4: Yeah, where do we get that from Yeah.
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Speaker 2: I think it is probably that thing of it feels so horrific and so unbelievable to us that we feel like we could never we could never do that, and we just don't know because we're not in that situation.
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Speaker 4: That's reason one why people are obsessed.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, So my other two things I want to point out. One of the other reasons I think is that Lindsay Clancy is a beautiful white woman, and we know that the media definitely draws more attention to cases like that, So I think that may.
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Speaker 1: Be so tough to be said perfectionist. She's slender, she's beautiful, yep.
00:18:46
Speaker 2: Yep, she was a nurse, she fits all these things that we think of as the perfect mother, rightly or wrongly. But I think one of the other things that really gets to the crux of why we all feel so emotional about this story is that we can see us a bit in Lindsey Clancy. And while we might not even ever be able to imagine the depths of where she got to at the end, for a lot of us, I think we can recognize the beginning because we've been postpartum and we know how dark that place can get. And I think it's one of those things where you can see how without intervention you can take steps down that path, and it doesn't feel that far from the path that we're on. Beckday wrote a brilliant piece for mom and Mia, which we can link to in the show notes, and there was a comment under the piece. She wrote that I just want to read to you because it really stuck with me, perfectly encapsulating why women feel so emotionally tied to this story. This woman said, it's been eighteen years and I still clearly remember holding my screaming four month old little boy with my hands around his tiny little chest, just wanting to shake him, saying to myself, put him down. I remember removing each finger, laying him down safely, going to the bathroom and crying. It wasn't psychosis, it wasn't depression. It was sleep, deprivation and desperation. So I can only imagine how if your brain is working against you, how hard that must be.
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Speaker 4: This poor woman.
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Speaker 2: My heart breaks for her, and I think, regardless of whether Lindsay is held criminally responsible or not in this case, she will be in a living hell for the rest of her life. And seeing it happen feels too close to home for a lot of us. Is that resonating with you?
00:20:32
Speaker 1: It is, but the data also backs that up. So the rates of postpartum anxiety and depression are climbing. It is one in five women will experience either. But I do want to distinguish between those things and postpartum psychosis, which is the point in this case here. Postpartum psychosis is a very serious mental illness.
00:20:57
Speaker 4: It is rare.
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Speaker 1: It can cause extreme mood changes both high and low, so manic highs of euphoria and very low lows. But it also can cause hallucinations, delusions, a person loses touch with reality, and postpartum psychosis is a medical emergency.
00:21:20
Speaker 3: I think that's all really important to say, Mom's and Stacy, thank you for explaining that. That actually makes so much sense. Why this story has captivated so many people.
00:21:30
Speaker 2: And I think that's the thing that gets lost sight of in cases like this is because true crime is such a big genre that we now consume. We almost feel removed from that a little bit. That at the center of this are three little children that lost their lives and nothing is going to change that. I think the best thing we can hope for in this case, regardless of the outcome, is that postpart and mental health is put very much at the forefront, and it feels like conversations are happening around that more and more now.
00:22:01
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, this is a conversation that is in the culture right now. And I think what's troubling me is that Australia is considered world leading in this space because we were one of the first countries to actually screen every new mother for depression. You would remember, you go to that six week check after you have a baby and they run through that questionnaire with you and for some like that's going to catch a few things, but for others it won't. Because that five minute exercise of ticking boxes. We know that if women are under having anxiety, We've read a lot of case studies, a lot of reports out there of women not wanting to be truthful about how they feel postpartum with the fear that their baby will be taken away from them. So I guess what's disturbing is like Australia is seen as kind of ahead of the curve here and yet and yet so many women still fall through the gaps, and especially culturally and linguistically, diverse women. The rates of postpartum anxiety depression that go untreated in those communities are really high. So what we're less good at is what happens after the screening. You have that sort of rudimentary screening, and then the follow up care is this giant wasteland and the system's really patchy. And I guess this week, encouragingly, Senator Mariel Smith put a motion in the Senate to establish a Senate inquiry into postpartum health, the costs of it, the accessibility of it, the delivery of mental health support and of physical support in that postpartum period. And she's essentially saying how you recover from birth, and this is live birth, and it's also babies that are steelborn as well. She's saying both of those things. She's saying, how you recover from that birth shouldn't depend on money, on postcode, on privilege, or whether you happen to luck out and stumble across the right practitioner or the right GP at the right time. This needs to be infrastructure. This needs to be legislated infrastructure. And guys, I've never watched Parliament in my life, and I put the Senate on live stream so I could hear what she had to say. I feel that invested in this. This is that important for women. So here's what she said in the Senate.
00:24:18
Speaker 7: Access to good quality care in the postpartum period should not be a matter of what you can afford where you live, and it can't be left to luck. We can break down the stigma that stops women reaching out in this critical period of their lives. It stops them from getting help. There is still a group of women that I am afraid as a community, we are not reaching women who are struggling with their own experiences. Women struggling with feelings of failure or shame, women too overwhelmed to leave their house because of anxiety or the physical impacts of their births. How do we find them?
00:24:54
Speaker 1: So you know Australia's senators are on it, and let's hope that that reform can happen. If anything in this conversation hit close to home for you or for someone that you know, the Panda Helpline is thirteen hundred seven two six three oh six and Lifeline is thirteen eleven fourteen. We will put links in the show notes. Please please reach out though the resources are there for you?
00:25:15
Speaker 2: All right?
00:25:16
Speaker 1: A little gear change now. I want to bring some positivity to the show after that heavy segment when I say to you both, name a parenting expert in Australia who comes to mind?
00:25:25
Speaker 4: Hi you Dan right, Steve Bidoff right?
00:25:29
Speaker 1: Okay, I want to posit the case for a sleeper expert, a parent who is hiding in plain sight because she does wear a lot of khaki. It's this week. I watched at the Logis as many people did. I watched Australia's darling, Robert Irwin, and I thought, as I think every time I see him, what a fine young man. And I look at his sister, Bindi, and I think, what a fine young woman. And this week at a thought, what did their mother do to raise two wholesome, pure kind like people with integrity. These are children who have been brought up in the spotlight, and yet they remain grounded, they remain wholesome, and they remain very values driven. And so and I say, what did she do? Because as we know, she raised them largely as a widow. Bindy was eight and Robert was two when their father, Steve Erwin died. So I went hunting. I was like, what does Terry Erwin do with her parenting that has raised these two wholesome, beautiful children. And I found out two very interesting things and I would like to posit the case for radical Irwin parenting.
00:26:38
Speaker 4: Hey give it to us, okay.
00:26:40
Speaker 1: The first one is that she had them meaningfully working at Australia Zoo from like contributing to the family business from a very young age. So's she's Terry's the owner in the chairwoman of Australia Zoo. And she put them to work. And this was not just make your bed and take your dishes up to the sink when you finish with them, and unpack your school bag. This was feed the crocodiles, clean up the rhino, pooh and muck in right. So they were meaningfully contributing to the family business. And the second thing that she did was she made them present to crowds from when they were really young. So she told People magazine about BINDI. I wanted to give her the opportunity to feel comfortable with public speaking, so she joined me to tell guests about our amazing wildlife. I felt that if she could learn about wildlife and teach others by addressing a large crowd, she'd be able to have the confidence to be a leader in her chosen field. So Bindi was out there doing galapagus tortoise presentations from the age of about seven.
00:27:40
Speaker 2: They really do seem wise beyond their years, Like I wonder whether that's come into it. Even from when Bindi was twelve, there was almost this how can that be a real child? She's so clever and she's so grown up, like she feels like they really are just.
00:27:57
Speaker 4: I don't know much about them.
00:27:59
Speaker 3: Don't you explain when you said they lived by the right values?
00:28:03
Speaker 4: What are their values? Tell me more about how such good.
00:28:07
Speaker 1: Kids conservation Amelia, and they just seemed to have never really put a foot wrong. There was a period of time when Bindi was younger where people sort of viewed her as a bit precocious, But then she got up and did the eulogy at Steve's funeral and it was this watershed moment for Australia to just be like, this kid is incredible. And I just think that we've talked about the importance of sort of risky play on this show before to kind of build resilience. But I do think that the irwins and the way that they were raised traversus this terrain that we haven't talked about before, which is that there's a really strong correlation between kids that do like meaningful chores and contribute in a family sense turning out to be very well rounded adults with a lot of self worth and a lot of confidence and work ethic and empathy. So I just think, what do you reckon? Like, do we need a Tarry Erwin parenting book?
00:28:58
Speaker 3: Yeah? Or maybe we could get our kids to write our scripts for this show. We're going to say, why don't we just put them on the mix and just see what happens.
00:29:07
Speaker 4: It's meaning great play for them. Yeah, Yeah, I'm all for it.
00:29:11
Speaker 2: I think that's the only That's the thing is that's the only opportunity we have. I don't have rhinopuh in my backyard for my kid to be cleaning up. Maybe I need to go make a mess and then she can sort that out.
00:29:22
Speaker 1: I mean, Hell was screaming at me last night to make her smoothie, and I said, Robert Erwin was feeding crocodiles at your age, I'm pretty sure you can make your own smoothie.
00:29:33
Speaker 2: That was the thing though, Mon's they were, they have seemed so perfect and like they have the most beautiful, like positive mental attitude to things, these kids that it was almost when it was only Bindi that was really in the public eye, she did get a lot of flak, like you said, for being too precocious. And when Robert came along, and now we see him a lot more, obviously through the logis and all the shows he's on. You go, oh, no, that's that's just who they are as a family. That's just that's just how they are, and of course we want our kids to be like that, right, it's lovely.
00:30:03
Speaker 1: A lot of said about Steve Irwin, but I actually think Terry Owen.
00:30:06
Speaker 4: Yeah, she's the real mvpain. Yes, she's the goat. Yeah.
00:30:09
Speaker 1: Okay, before we finish up today, it's time for recommendations, where we bring you the very best that we've seen, used, bought, and tried, and we skipped out on last week, so we've got to bumper one for you this week. Stacey, You've got something for us to watch.
00:30:23
Speaker 2: Yes, I want you all to watch Five Star Weekend on Binch.
00:30:26
Speaker 3: Have you seen this around? I'm so curious about this. It looks just like a delightful, relaxing.
00:30:32
Speaker 2: Wa it is so visually stunning, Like one of our writers here described it as like the perfect crisp glass of rose, and that is how I would describe the show. It stars Jennifer Gana and it's got Chloe Sevignier and Regina Hall like great cast in this show. And Jennifer Ganner plays a food influencer who loses her husband. That's not a spoiler, that happens immediately in one of the early episodes, and she invites four friends from four different lives ages for this weekend away. That's the five stars, the five of them together. But what's really interesting is how they portray female friendship and how different friends at different points in your life get such a different version of you. So you see a lot of tension between like her childhood best friend and her college best friend, and then her friend that she met once they had children. Like it's just so interesting to watch that play out, and it's just it's just a fun and light, but then it's got lots of juicy bits in there to keep you in. And the last ep dropped this week. I have not watched the last episode yet, so I'm kind of doing a Monsie.
00:31:37
Speaker 3: When she prerecorded Oh oh, it's not going to be like Gas. Yes, when she pre recorded ted Lasso season four. Hopefully it's not like that. But the first seven episodes have been absolute bangers.
00:31:48
Speaker 4: So watch it.
00:31:49
Speaker 3: It's great, really lovely. I'm recommending a podcast. It's called The Listies Make You loll Cast. It's made by two Melbourne comedians. Mons You spent a lot of time in Melbourne, do you know. Richard Higgins and Matt Kelly.
00:32:03
Speaker 4: Were my neighbors.
00:32:07
Speaker 3: So they say they make comedy for kids aged five to five hundred million dinosaurs allowed, so you get a sense of the humor from that. It's it's very heavy on slapstick and fart jokes.
00:32:17
Speaker 4: But what I love to do is.
00:32:19
Speaker 3: I put it on when my kid is in the bath and I sit on the toilet seat and we both have a giggle, not the seat itself on top of.
00:32:29
Speaker 4: The toilet, the toilet lid.
00:32:30
Speaker 3: Yeah, we all know, and we have a bit of a giggle, and it's just very funny. They recently went to New York and they riffed about Taylor's was sweating at Madison Oblong Garden And I recommend it highly.
00:32:42
Speaker 4: Are they long episodes or they're like half.
00:32:44
Speaker 3: An hour each? And my kid loves it so much he's even written in can they read out like emails from their listeners?
00:32:54
Speaker 4: It's very whole side note.
00:32:56
Speaker 1: Do you know stamps are a dollars seventy now?
00:32:58
Speaker 2: What?
00:32:59
Speaker 4: Oh my god? Yeah, dollars.
00:33:01
Speaker 1: I remember when they are forty five cents. That's how I'm showing my age. Yeah, So receiving something in the mail now has this extra layer of like, wow, someone's really gone above and beyond that.
00:33:10
Speaker 4: It's guested.
00:33:11
Speaker 1: I have also a podcast recommendation for you, and it's spring, which means just one thing. It's time to throw open the windows of your house. It's time to hire a skippin and throw everything away. It's declutter season.
00:33:26
Speaker 3: Before you get into declutter season, just give me a sort of paint me a quick picture of how Facebook Christmas Mums of Australia is feeling right now as the seasons turn.
00:33:37
Speaker 4: Is that holding up? You want to update on Christmas Mums? Where are they at right now? They are in the third quarter.
00:33:42
Speaker 1: You know they talk about the championship quarter of the game, like the third quarter is just important. Okay, the third quarter in a game is the most important. It's where you focus. You hope this is where games are.
00:33:51
Speaker 4: One or lot. The fourth quarter was important.
00:33:54
Speaker 1: It's not.
00:33:54
Speaker 4: It's done in the third.
00:33:55
Speaker 1: The hard work's done in the third and that's where Christmas Mums Australia are at right now. The two things to report from that group. Number one, Christmas pajamas are available for pre order already on Best and Less.
00:34:06
Speaker 4: You're welcome. Target will have theirs out very soon as well.
00:34:10
Speaker 1: But the secondly second thing to report is that Costco have got their Christmas stock coming in as we speak. So yes, if you want to join the Christmas Mon's Australia Facebook group, I'm in there all the time. It's a lot of fun. But this recommendation is more suited to the mums who clean Facebook group that I'm in or mums who organize. Are you willing?
00:34:34
Speaker 4: I need for control? My life's a mess.
00:34:36
Speaker 1: I spend my time looking at these groups, is what it is. This podcast episode is an episode of The Mel Robins Show and it's called It's a couple of weeks old now, so you have to scroll through. The title of it is Organize your Life and Home the simple system that gives you more time, energy and control.
00:34:52
Speaker 4: Mel Robins has let them, right, she's let them. Yes, I thought her vibe would have just been just let just leave it, man, I leave it all there whatever, Right.
00:35:02
Speaker 1: It's not. So believe me when I tell you I've listened to many, many decluttering podcasts, and this one is the best episode I've ever heard. I have now listened to it three times. That's how good it is.
00:35:15
Speaker 4: Going back.
00:35:16
Speaker 3: Does it have a philosophy? That's yeah, it does, And what's the philosophy.
00:35:19
Speaker 1: Does The philosophy is, don't think about decluttering your house, think about editing. So you guys are both editors, right, you edit in, you keep the good things in, and you get rid of the rubbish. Just edit your home to make it work for you. But the other thing they say, which I've never heard before, is that organized people are too lazy to look for things. So being organized is actually like way more efficient. I was just lazy to go look for things because everything's just got us place to go.
00:35:46
Speaker 2: So you don't have to rifle. Everything's just there. So actually you're making it easier for you to be lazy by putting in the hard.
00:35:53
Speaker 3: Something that you have organized after listening to this many things.
00:35:58
Speaker 4: I've done my bookshelf.
00:36:00
Speaker 1: I've edited my bookshelf, I've edited my pantry, i have edited my linen closet. Because what I'm doing now is at night time, everyone's in bed and the house is dark and quiet.
00:36:09
Speaker 4: I put this podcast on and I.
00:36:11
Speaker 1: Hyper focus on one area of my house and it's like it like motivates me to do it.
00:36:16
Speaker 4: Okay, all right, I can't start telling people about this episode.
00:36:20
Speaker 2: Recommend that people also just put us in your ears, just any of the episodes while you do that at night as well.
00:36:25
Speaker 4: It doesn't have to be mel it can be us. We'll be with you at rage clean.
00:36:30
Speaker 1: I could do extra episodes of this podcast work read out posts from the Christmas Mum's Facebook group.
00:36:36
Speaker 3: What's the opposite of ASMR? We should be wrapping this up now.
00:36:39
Speaker 4: Hey, that is all we have time for.
00:36:40
Speaker 1: Thank you Amelia for wrapping us up, and thank you Stacy Hicks, thank you for your follow thank you for listening, and.
00:36:45
Speaker 4: We'll see you again next week.
00:36:46
Speaker 3: Bye.
00:36:47
Speaker 4: MoMA.
00:36:48
Speaker 1: Mea acknowledges the traditional owners of Bland on which we have recorded this podcast
Speaker 1: Welcome to Parenting out Loud, the podcast of parents who don't always listen to parenting podcasts. We like to take a look at the news, trends and culture and what parents are thinking about.
00:00:13
Speaker 2: I'm Monique Bowley, I'm Amelia Lester and I'm Stacy Kicks and coming off on today's show, it's being described as the saddest murder case in the world. So why is every mother you know obsessed with it?
00:00:26
Speaker 1: I've got the case for radical Irwin parenting. I think Australia's top parenting expert is hiding in plain sight in a Safari suit.
00:00:36
Speaker 3: Actually, And I'm going to tell you about the podcast that I put on when my kids in the bath and I'm sitting on the toilet seat next to them and we're just having a little gab at the end of the day.
00:00:45
Speaker 4: I love it. Can't wait.
00:00:47
Speaker 3: But first, Bluie's got a new look and not everyone is pleased about it. A trailer for the new Bluey movie, which is being made by Disney and released a year from now in August twenty twenty seven, just came out and the animation is quite different from the TV show. It looks quite different the trailer is very simple. It's Bluey and Bingo playing keep it uppy with an iconic red balloon, of course. But what struck me about it is that looks very similar to say, a Toy Story. And that's because rather than being in that flat two D the Healer.
00:01:19
Speaker 4: Family, and now in more of.
00:01:21
Speaker 3: A three D, more kind of realistic if you can be a family of dogs talking, I've had more realistic universe.
00:01:27
Speaker 4: It's the Hollywood glow up. Yeah, Louie, Yes, yes, yeah.
00:01:31
Speaker 3: And while lots of people are very excited for that sort of more more dimensional image, some are having a bit of a hard time with it, so I think to get ahead of it. Louie's creator Jo Brahm, Yeah yeah, was talking about why they made that shift this week.
00:01:53
Speaker 5: The first short film I ever made in my third year of our college was in three D.
00:01:57
Speaker 4: It brought the.
00:01:58
Speaker 5: House down at our screening, and I just thought, I'm going to be a three D animator. And then I spent the rest of my career in two D hand drawn, and I love two D and I love hand drawn, but three D was a thing. And at the same time as I made that film, Toy Story was coming out and it felt like this is my generation of animation. We're always striving to get a beauty of nature in the show, and I wanted to have every tool available to capture a beautiful blade of grass and light rays and all that. And I wanted kids to be able to feel like they could reach in and give these little dogs a scratch on their furry heads.
00:02:32
Speaker 3: Now that's obviously so cute, and we love Joe and his Australian invention of Bluie. That's made us also proud.
00:02:38
Speaker 4: Even the background music maybe, Oh.
00:02:40
Speaker 3: Absolutely, You've got to bring your tisses to the movie. And I'm so excited for the movie. But I find what's interesting about this is that Joe Bram has been wrestling with fame and success in front of us for so long now. Because that final episode of Blue about whether or not they're going to move, It's really about Joe debating am I ready for the big time?
00:03:02
Speaker 4: Am I ready to go to Hollywood?
00:03:04
Speaker 3: And I love how he's kind of being open with us in that way through his art.
00:03:11
Speaker 1: Oh my god, I've never thought about that before. What other messages are you getting from Louis?
00:03:17
Speaker 3: That final episode was a meditation on whether or not he could accept the success and the accolades and the big time and all the demands that that were put on him. Yes, it would bring him more money, it would bring him more acclaim, but it would also it's a trade off. Like I think for him to then go to Hollywood and take on a Disney movie project, there's trade offs involved in that for him, and I love how he was honest with us about that in that episode. Do they stay? They don't such an interesting stay? They stay in two D? Becausever but not forever?
00:03:54
Speaker 4: But not Yeah, yeah, that's right.
00:03:56
Speaker 2: I think we just don't. We don't love change. Yes, you know, like when something kind of is changing in a way that we didn't we didn't choose, it is this hard thing of oh that's not how That's why parenting is so emotionally wrenching because every day has changed.
00:04:12
Speaker 4: That is so true and so just ding some real truth bombs here. Yeah really are wow.
00:04:18
Speaker 1: Curious question from me. The way you brought this to the show, Melia, thank you. So interesting was the criticism against the three D Did that happen first and then they released this reel of him talking about it, or like you said something about it being a productive.
00:04:33
Speaker 3: So yeah, there was a little bit of chatter before the trailer came out about what it would look like. Then the trailer comes out and it's in. It's in this more three D look. And I don't know exactly when they filmed the interview that we played from there, but the comments on that are very divided. Once the trailer came out, people there were two camps, wouldn't you say, Stacy.
00:04:56
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, absolutely, people being like, I don't care give me Bluey in any form that it comes to me, like we know it will be.
00:05:03
Speaker 4: It has to be too.
00:05:05
Speaker 3: Yeah, it does look like a richer, more visualous, sumptuous universe does.
00:05:09
Speaker 2: And then other people going, this isn't my Bluey. I don't know this Bluey.
00:05:13
Speaker 1: I think it's going to be one of those things that you notice for the first two minutes and then you just forget that it even was any different.
00:05:19
Speaker 4: Yeah, I'll look. I'll be wrestling you too.
00:05:21
Speaker 3: For the August twenty twenty seven We'll be Live podcast will be there regardless. Another little in case you missed it this week, cast your mind back to how you felt four weeks after your first baby. Now imagine going on National Live TV with that baby in your arms, in my truck suit that I'm born for four days straight.
00:05:43
Speaker 4: Yeah, okay, cool, Yeah, I'd look great.
00:05:45
Speaker 3: Today's show host Sarah Arbo is living what would be my nightmare, but she's looking lovely while doing it. She returned to the morning TV show Couch this week with her four week old Sonny, and I have to say he was remarkably well behaved and she looked remarkably put together. Here's some of what she had to say.
00:06:04
Speaker 6: Oh my god, we have a child now, and from the moment you first meet them in hospital to you know, the nightly feeds and more daily morning, all the time feeds. Just nursing him is so beautiful, and you just go, this little guy is so dependent on us, and you know, we just want to make him proud and just give him the best start in life.
00:06:21
Speaker 3: That's what morning TV hosts do so well. They share with us such relatable insights into how you think in any time of life. Like when she said that about the responsibility, Yeah, that's what everyone think. I was just thinking, Wow, that was a really succinct, well put together sentence, something I was not doing for weeks post part even more incredibly, Sarah attended the Logis on Sunday night, which I cannot imagine putting on an evening gown and spanks So for weeks after you have a baby.
00:06:51
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is a no from me. This is not a criticism of Sarah Arbo by any means. What I want to do here is play the ball and not the man. So what I want to sort of challenge is the idea that she went on that couch, not her doing it or her decision. Right, It's kind of like that the context around her having to go and do that. I think for me this feels suchually feels really gendered, and I think it also speaks to kind of the pressure of retaining relevance in the workplace when you step out and have a baby. Like we know that we already live in a culture where women feel really worried that when they go on maternity leave that they're going to lose relevance, that people are going to forget about them, that they won't maintain the same kind of value in the workplace. So to see her on the couch four weeks postpartum just raankle me.
00:07:39
Speaker 4: A little bit. Go on, I know what you're going to say, yeah, I don't see a problem with this.
00:07:44
Speaker 2: I feel like everyone wants to take their baby in and show them off and pretend that they're doing great. Like maybe she is legitimately doing great in every way, but I think you do want to go back and show those people. And I think by extension, they talk about it on morning TV all the time that their audience is their family and they feel this very parasocial relationship with them.
00:08:04
Speaker 4: So she's just sharing the good news.
00:08:06
Speaker 1: No, that's very true, and I agree with that. I agree with the parasocial relationship. I agree, but this isn't pop into the workplace and say hi.
00:08:14
Speaker 4: For five minutes.
00:08:15
Speaker 1: She's in a makeup chair an hour before she's like, you know, this is a huge undertaking to take a baby in and sit there and smile. And she performed like she was wonderful, and I know the audience would have loved it. I'm more talking about that kind of feeling of like that I'm still here, don't forget about me kind of Maybe I'm overthinking it.
00:08:33
Speaker 4: I don't know.
00:08:34
Speaker 1: No, I think the thing that got me sorry to jump in again is that the reason I think it's gendered is like Carl Stefanovic didn't schlep baby Harper into the Today Show couch when he had her, you know, four weeks after he had that baby. And I just think and because no one would have ever expected him to, and yet Sarah Arbo does.
00:08:53
Speaker 3: I think it's a good point once and I think maybe it's even more heightened for her that feeling, whether or not she's actual feeling it. I think a lot of women do feel that way, and it might be heightened in her case because in the lead up to her taking her parental leave, it was such a charge time at the Today Show with Carl leaving and a lot of controversy, and I just wonder if that wouldn't have heightened that feeling. I've got to get back there, I've got to keep.
00:09:19
Speaker 4: Things smooth and running.
00:09:21
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the pressure that women are under all the time. It's like, you're four weeks go rest be with your baby, Like, yeah, I just felt I know it was probably her choice and it was probably all fine, but just there was that little part of me that thought, I wish she didn't have to do this. Before we get into it, this segment is going to canvas issues of mental illness and infant death. So if that's not something you want in your ears today, please look after yourself and skip forward. We will have the exact time code in the show notes.
00:09:49
Speaker 2: If you haven't heard the name Lindsey Clancy yet, you are about to hear it everywhere. And why I really wanted to bring this story to the show today is that I haven't seen a story capture the attention of women, particularly mothers, like this in my sixteen years in media. So Lindsay is a thirty six year old nurse and a mother, and she's at the center of what they're describing as the saddest murder trial in the world. And what's unique about this is while Lindsay is on trial for the murder of her three children, which I think all of us can agree is just the most horrific circumstances, she's being met with widespread sympathy. And I have a few theories as to why this is happening, but I wanted to ask, are you two starting to see this story coming into your algorithms a lot?
00:10:33
Speaker 3: Now?
00:10:33
Speaker 2: Are you starting to hear your group chats talking about this case?
00:10:37
Speaker 1: I wasn't, and then I was blissfully ignorant until very late this week, and then because I know you wanted to bring it up, I had to google it. I'm afraid to admit I did. Yea yeah, and now it's everywhere. Now I feel like, how did I miss this?
00:10:50
Speaker 3: I've been hearing about it, but I had consciously switched off, but it got this week to the point where I couldn't do that anymore. Yeah, and so I do really want to hear from you once we've established the facts. For people like me who are not caught up on it all, why this horrific true crime story has captured the attention of so many women who aren't even normally into true crime.
00:11:12
Speaker 2: Yeah, Yeah, And I think people maybe listen to this show as a comfort during postpartum time, and the last thing we would want is for that to hinder you in any way. So please take care of yourself and know that we're thinking of you if that.
00:11:24
Speaker 4: Is the case.
00:11:25
Speaker 2: So, if you are aware of all the circumstances, I'm just going to catch you up really quickly on what this story is and what Lindsay is accused of doing.
00:11:33
Speaker 7: So.
00:11:33
Speaker 2: Lindsay is accused of murdering her three children, this five year old Cora, three year old Dawson, and eight month old Callan. So they were killed in their home in Massachusetts. Back in twenty twenty three. The court heard that Lindsay's now ex husband Patrick was picking up takeaway while this happened. And it's been heard in court that Lindsay then attempted to die by suicide by self harming and then jumping out of their second story window. She's been left with lifelong injuries from that and she's now in a wheelchair while she's in court at the moment. So Lindsay's defense team, I just want to make this really clear that Lindsay's defense team are not denying that she caused their deaths. Lindsay has admitted to causing their deaths.
00:12:13
Speaker 1: What they said, so this is not a case of did she or didn't she. No, they're saying she did.
00:12:18
Speaker 2: Despite what you might be seeing on social media, this is not a case of that. What Lindsay's defense team are saying is that she is not guilty by reason of insanity. So they're citing that this was active postpartum psychosis that caused what happened, and that's that's what's being heard in the court right now, so so far, they're hearing that Lindsay repeatedly attempted to seek help for her worsening mental state and which included intrusive thoughts and depression. The court has heard that she was on a combination of up to thirteen prescribed medications and she raised concerns multiple times that they were hindering her more, that they were making her symptoms worse, and people, including a nanny that worked for the Clancys, testified that Lindsay was a wonderful mother who loved her kids. In fact, no one has said a bad word about Lindsay and the evidence we've heard thus far.
00:13:07
Speaker 1: She's a former nurse, isn't she.
00:13:09
Speaker 4: She is, yeah, former midwife.
00:13:12
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I read an article about how in the post, you know, in the maternity ward, people would ask for her. She was like the top nurse, the best, the most caring, the most loving.
00:13:23
Speaker 4: Yeah.
00:13:23
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's widely been what's been reported inside and outside of the courtroom.
00:13:28
Speaker 3: But Stacey, what does what has the prosecution had to say about her seeking the help and her raising the flags about the drugs?
00:13:37
Speaker 2: I think that is that is the thing that they're they're hinging their argument on here is that Lindsay was a victim of a system that allowed her to fall through the crack.
00:13:47
Speaker 3: So if the defense is saying, look, this was a woman in medical need who was in fact trying to raise the alarm with her doctors about the fact that she was on a lot of medications and maybe they weren't working well together, and that she wasn't feeling herself, what does the prosecution have to counter that with.
00:14:06
Speaker 2: Yeah, so the prosecutioner trying to prove that she was of sound mind at the time and that she purposely sent Patrick, her now ex husband, out on an errand during that time, so that she could commit the murders.
00:14:18
Speaker 4: And in fact, she.
00:14:19
Speaker 2: Took a phone call from him while while he was out he went to the chemist to get medication.
00:14:24
Speaker 4: For the children. Have we heard the phone call.
00:14:26
Speaker 2: We haven't heard the phone call. We've just heard that it was fourteen seconds or fifteen seconds, something really short like that, but that they chatted in that time and.
00:14:34
Speaker 1: Checking on a medication.
00:14:36
Speaker 4: Yeah, and she sounded normal, distracted.
00:14:38
Speaker 2: That they might be in the bath, or that she might be in the middle of something, but that she seemed fine.
00:14:43
Speaker 4: Right, But I mean.
00:14:44
Speaker 2: Patrick himself, it should be said, is sympathetic to Lindsey and has spoken multiple times previously to the court case about the fact that he's found it in his heart to forgive her. And one of the quotes that always stands out to me is that he said he didn't marry a monster, he married someone who became ill.
00:15:04
Speaker 4: And that was that big New York piece about Yeah. So he is in support of Lindsay in this kind has.
00:15:11
Speaker 3: Well stayed that way because I read that he has remarried, he's still taking that stance of sympathy towards her.
00:15:18
Speaker 4: I believe.
00:15:19
Speaker 2: So he hasn't kind of spoken about that in the court case now, but he's kind of remade steadfast in that support of her that she was suffering in that time.
00:15:32
Speaker 1: Discourse around this seems to be kind of split into three really distinct parts. Number one is the true crime obsessive seem to be on this track, and there's a huge conspiracy that actually Patrick he's actually the murderer. We can discount that, But then what we're left with is that Lindsey many many people are siding with her and standing with her and saying this is a woman who was in deep psychological distress and she was let down. And she was a woman who asked for help multiple times and yet still fell through the cracks and was let down by the systems around her and by the people around her. But then there's the third tranch of the internet that's saying, hang on, three children are dead and at her hands. And so no matter what psychological situation is happening here, somebody needs to be kept held to account for this.
00:16:29
Speaker 4: Yep. So yeah, yeah, absolutely.
00:16:32
Speaker 2: I think that second point is the crux of why everyone is so invested in this case. And I've been reading a lot about this because, as you said, yeah, so, first of all, online, what you see in the courtroom and what's being presented in the courtroom is very different to what you're seeing on social media. As Mon's just said, then a lot of people on social media will have you believe that her husband did it, which is unfounded in this situation. This case is not about whether he did it or he did it. People are so passionate about this, and I think part of what I'm going to explain is why so in this case, there's a lack of what they call defensive attribution. So doctor Kristen Summer did a great video about this week and link to where she talks about how when a tragedy happens, we like to say a child drowning in a backyard swimming pool, we like to blame it on a person's choices rather than saying it was an unavoidable situation. So we like to say, well, that person wasn't watching their child, and you could avoid that because you could watch your child. So that won't happen in my situation, because I will avoid this by watching my child. And that's how your mind tricks itself into feeling like life is controllable again. But in a case like this, where there's potential postpartum psychosis, we can't comfort ourselves out of that thought because it feels like something that's impossible for us to avoid. And so she explains it as the one way our brain finds a way out is sympathy for Lindsey that we just we can't rationalize it.
00:18:02
Speaker 3: I feel like this happens again and again in these horrible cases, that we collectively seem to have some idea of how parents should cope in these unimaginable situations.
00:18:12
Speaker 4: Yeah, where do we get that from Yeah.
00:18:14
Speaker 2: I think it is probably that thing of it feels so horrific and so unbelievable to us that we feel like we could never we could never do that, and we just don't know because we're not in that situation.
00:18:27
Speaker 4: That's reason one why people are obsessed.
00:18:29
Speaker 2: Yeah, So my other two things I want to point out. One of the other reasons I think is that Lindsay Clancy is a beautiful white woman, and we know that the media definitely draws more attention to cases like that, So I think that may.
00:18:41
Speaker 1: Be so tough to be said perfectionist. She's slender, she's beautiful, yep.
00:18:46
Speaker 2: Yep, she was a nurse, she fits all these things that we think of as the perfect mother, rightly or wrongly. But I think one of the other things that really gets to the crux of why we all feel so emotional about this story is that we can see us a bit in Lindsey Clancy. And while we might not even ever be able to imagine the depths of where she got to at the end, for a lot of us, I think we can recognize the beginning because we've been postpartum and we know how dark that place can get. And I think it's one of those things where you can see how without intervention you can take steps down that path, and it doesn't feel that far from the path that we're on. Beckday wrote a brilliant piece for mom and Mia, which we can link to in the show notes, and there was a comment under the piece. She wrote that I just want to read to you because it really stuck with me, perfectly encapsulating why women feel so emotionally tied to this story. This woman said, it's been eighteen years and I still clearly remember holding my screaming four month old little boy with my hands around his tiny little chest, just wanting to shake him, saying to myself, put him down. I remember removing each finger, laying him down safely, going to the bathroom and crying. It wasn't psychosis, it wasn't depression. It was sleep, deprivation and desperation. So I can only imagine how if your brain is working against you, how hard that must be.
00:20:13
Speaker 4: This poor woman.
00:20:13
Speaker 2: My heart breaks for her, and I think, regardless of whether Lindsay is held criminally responsible or not in this case, she will be in a living hell for the rest of her life. And seeing it happen feels too close to home for a lot of us. Is that resonating with you?
00:20:32
Speaker 1: It is, but the data also backs that up. So the rates of postpartum anxiety and depression are climbing. It is one in five women will experience either. But I do want to distinguish between those things and postpartum psychosis, which is the point in this case here. Postpartum psychosis is a very serious mental illness.
00:20:57
Speaker 4: It is rare.
00:20:58
Speaker 1: It can cause extreme mood changes both high and low, so manic highs of euphoria and very low lows. But it also can cause hallucinations, delusions, a person loses touch with reality, and postpartum psychosis is a medical emergency.
00:21:20
Speaker 3: I think that's all really important to say, Mom's and Stacy, thank you for explaining that. That actually makes so much sense. Why this story has captivated so many people.
00:21:30
Speaker 2: And I think that's the thing that gets lost sight of in cases like this is because true crime is such a big genre that we now consume. We almost feel removed from that a little bit. That at the center of this are three little children that lost their lives and nothing is going to change that. I think the best thing we can hope for in this case, regardless of the outcome, is that postpart and mental health is put very much at the forefront, and it feels like conversations are happening around that more and more now.
00:22:01
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, this is a conversation that is in the culture right now. And I think what's troubling me is that Australia is considered world leading in this space because we were one of the first countries to actually screen every new mother for depression. You would remember, you go to that six week check after you have a baby and they run through that questionnaire with you and for some like that's going to catch a few things, but for others it won't. Because that five minute exercise of ticking boxes. We know that if women are under having anxiety, We've read a lot of case studies, a lot of reports out there of women not wanting to be truthful about how they feel postpartum with the fear that their baby will be taken away from them. So I guess what's disturbing is like Australia is seen as kind of ahead of the curve here and yet and yet so many women still fall through the gaps, and especially culturally and linguistically, diverse women. The rates of postpartum anxiety depression that go untreated in those communities are really high. So what we're less good at is what happens after the screening. You have that sort of rudimentary screening, and then the follow up care is this giant wasteland and the system's really patchy. And I guess this week, encouragingly, Senator Mariel Smith put a motion in the Senate to establish a Senate inquiry into postpartum health, the costs of it, the accessibility of it, the delivery of mental health support and of physical support in that postpartum period. And she's essentially saying how you recover from birth, and this is live birth, and it's also babies that are steelborn as well. She's saying both of those things. She's saying, how you recover from that birth shouldn't depend on money, on postcode, on privilege, or whether you happen to luck out and stumble across the right practitioner or the right GP at the right time. This needs to be infrastructure. This needs to be legislated infrastructure. And guys, I've never watched Parliament in my life, and I put the Senate on live stream so I could hear what she had to say. I feel that invested in this. This is that important for women. So here's what she said in the Senate.
00:24:18
Speaker 7: Access to good quality care in the postpartum period should not be a matter of what you can afford where you live, and it can't be left to luck. We can break down the stigma that stops women reaching out in this critical period of their lives. It stops them from getting help. There is still a group of women that I am afraid as a community, we are not reaching women who are struggling with their own experiences. Women struggling with feelings of failure or shame, women too overwhelmed to leave their house because of anxiety or the physical impacts of their births. How do we find them?
00:24:54
Speaker 1: So you know Australia's senators are on it, and let's hope that that reform can happen. If anything in this conversation hit close to home for you or for someone that you know, the Panda Helpline is thirteen hundred seven two six three oh six and Lifeline is thirteen eleven fourteen. We will put links in the show notes. Please please reach out though the resources are there for you?
00:25:15
Speaker 2: All right?
00:25:16
Speaker 1: A little gear change now. I want to bring some positivity to the show after that heavy segment when I say to you both, name a parenting expert in Australia who comes to mind?
00:25:25
Speaker 4: Hi you Dan right, Steve Bidoff right?
00:25:29
Speaker 1: Okay, I want to posit the case for a sleeper expert, a parent who is hiding in plain sight because she does wear a lot of khaki. It's this week. I watched at the Logis as many people did. I watched Australia's darling, Robert Irwin, and I thought, as I think every time I see him, what a fine young man. And I look at his sister, Bindi, and I think, what a fine young woman. And this week at a thought, what did their mother do to raise two wholesome, pure kind like people with integrity. These are children who have been brought up in the spotlight, and yet they remain grounded, they remain wholesome, and they remain very values driven. And so and I say, what did she do? Because as we know, she raised them largely as a widow. Bindy was eight and Robert was two when their father, Steve Erwin died. So I went hunting. I was like, what does Terry Erwin do with her parenting that has raised these two wholesome, beautiful children. And I found out two very interesting things and I would like to posit the case for radical Irwin parenting.
00:26:38
Speaker 4: Hey give it to us, okay.
00:26:40
Speaker 1: The first one is that she had them meaningfully working at Australia Zoo from like contributing to the family business from a very young age. So's she's Terry's the owner in the chairwoman of Australia Zoo. And she put them to work. And this was not just make your bed and take your dishes up to the sink when you finish with them, and unpack your school bag. This was feed the crocodiles, clean up the rhino, pooh and muck in right. So they were meaningfully contributing to the family business. And the second thing that she did was she made them present to crowds from when they were really young. So she told People magazine about BINDI. I wanted to give her the opportunity to feel comfortable with public speaking, so she joined me to tell guests about our amazing wildlife. I felt that if she could learn about wildlife and teach others by addressing a large crowd, she'd be able to have the confidence to be a leader in her chosen field. So Bindi was out there doing galapagus tortoise presentations from the age of about seven.
00:27:40
Speaker 2: They really do seem wise beyond their years, Like I wonder whether that's come into it. Even from when Bindi was twelve, there was almost this how can that be a real child? She's so clever and she's so grown up, like she feels like they really are just.
00:27:57
Speaker 4: I don't know much about them.
00:27:59
Speaker 3: Don't you explain when you said they lived by the right values?
00:28:03
Speaker 4: What are their values? Tell me more about how such good.
00:28:07
Speaker 1: Kids conservation Amelia, and they just seemed to have never really put a foot wrong. There was a period of time when Bindi was younger where people sort of viewed her as a bit precocious, But then she got up and did the eulogy at Steve's funeral and it was this watershed moment for Australia to just be like, this kid is incredible. And I just think that we've talked about the importance of sort of risky play on this show before to kind of build resilience. But I do think that the irwins and the way that they were raised traversus this terrain that we haven't talked about before, which is that there's a really strong correlation between kids that do like meaningful chores and contribute in a family sense turning out to be very well rounded adults with a lot of self worth and a lot of confidence and work ethic and empathy. So I just think, what do you reckon? Like, do we need a Tarry Erwin parenting book?
00:28:58
Speaker 3: Yeah? Or maybe we could get our kids to write our scripts for this show. We're going to say, why don't we just put them on the mix and just see what happens.
00:29:07
Speaker 4: It's meaning great play for them. Yeah, Yeah, I'm all for it.
00:29:11
Speaker 2: I think that's the only That's the thing is that's the only opportunity we have. I don't have rhinopuh in my backyard for my kid to be cleaning up. Maybe I need to go make a mess and then she can sort that out.
00:29:22
Speaker 1: I mean, Hell was screaming at me last night to make her smoothie, and I said, Robert Erwin was feeding crocodiles at your age, I'm pretty sure you can make your own smoothie.
00:29:33
Speaker 2: That was the thing though, Mon's they were, they have seemed so perfect and like they have the most beautiful, like positive mental attitude to things, these kids that it was almost when it was only Bindi that was really in the public eye, she did get a lot of flak, like you said, for being too precocious. And when Robert came along, and now we see him a lot more, obviously through the logis and all the shows he's on. You go, oh, no, that's that's just who they are as a family. That's just that's just how they are, and of course we want our kids to be like that, right, it's lovely.
00:30:03
Speaker 1: A lot of said about Steve Irwin, but I actually think Terry Owen.
00:30:06
Speaker 4: Yeah, she's the real mvpain. Yes, she's the goat. Yeah.
00:30:09
Speaker 1: Okay, before we finish up today, it's time for recommendations, where we bring you the very best that we've seen, used, bought, and tried, and we skipped out on last week, so we've got to bumper one for you this week. Stacey, You've got something for us to watch.
00:30:23
Speaker 2: Yes, I want you all to watch Five Star Weekend on Binch.
00:30:26
Speaker 3: Have you seen this around? I'm so curious about this. It looks just like a delightful, relaxing.
00:30:32
Speaker 2: Wa it is so visually stunning, Like one of our writers here described it as like the perfect crisp glass of rose, and that is how I would describe the show. It stars Jennifer Gana and it's got Chloe Sevignier and Regina Hall like great cast in this show. And Jennifer Ganner plays a food influencer who loses her husband. That's not a spoiler, that happens immediately in one of the early episodes, and she invites four friends from four different lives ages for this weekend away. That's the five stars, the five of them together. But what's really interesting is how they portray female friendship and how different friends at different points in your life get such a different version of you. So you see a lot of tension between like her childhood best friend and her college best friend, and then her friend that she met once they had children. Like it's just so interesting to watch that play out, and it's just it's just a fun and light, but then it's got lots of juicy bits in there to keep you in. And the last ep dropped this week. I have not watched the last episode yet, so I'm kind of doing a Monsie.
00:31:37
Speaker 3: When she prerecorded Oh oh, it's not going to be like Gas. Yes, when she pre recorded ted Lasso season four. Hopefully it's not like that. But the first seven episodes have been absolute bangers.
00:31:48
Speaker 4: So watch it.
00:31:49
Speaker 3: It's great, really lovely. I'm recommending a podcast. It's called The Listies Make You loll Cast. It's made by two Melbourne comedians. Mons You spent a lot of time in Melbourne, do you know. Richard Higgins and Matt Kelly.
00:32:03
Speaker 4: Were my neighbors.
00:32:07
Speaker 3: So they say they make comedy for kids aged five to five hundred million dinosaurs allowed, so you get a sense of the humor from that. It's it's very heavy on slapstick and fart jokes.
00:32:17
Speaker 4: But what I love to do is.
00:32:19
Speaker 3: I put it on when my kid is in the bath and I sit on the toilet seat and we both have a giggle, not the seat itself on top of.
00:32:29
Speaker 4: The toilet, the toilet lid.
00:32:30
Speaker 3: Yeah, we all know, and we have a bit of a giggle, and it's just very funny. They recently went to New York and they riffed about Taylor's was sweating at Madison Oblong Garden And I recommend it highly.
00:32:42
Speaker 4: Are they long episodes or they're like half.
00:32:44
Speaker 3: An hour each? And my kid loves it so much he's even written in can they read out like emails from their listeners?
00:32:54
Speaker 4: It's very whole side note.
00:32:56
Speaker 1: Do you know stamps are a dollars seventy now?
00:32:58
Speaker 2: What?
00:32:59
Speaker 4: Oh my god? Yeah, dollars.
00:33:01
Speaker 1: I remember when they are forty five cents. That's how I'm showing my age. Yeah, So receiving something in the mail now has this extra layer of like, wow, someone's really gone above and beyond that.
00:33:10
Speaker 4: It's guested.
00:33:11
Speaker 1: I have also a podcast recommendation for you, and it's spring, which means just one thing. It's time to throw open the windows of your house. It's time to hire a skippin and throw everything away. It's declutter season.
00:33:26
Speaker 3: Before you get into declutter season, just give me a sort of paint me a quick picture of how Facebook Christmas Mums of Australia is feeling right now as the seasons turn.
00:33:37
Speaker 4: Is that holding up? You want to update on Christmas Mums? Where are they at right now? They are in the third quarter.
00:33:42
Speaker 1: You know they talk about the championship quarter of the game, like the third quarter is just important. Okay, the third quarter in a game is the most important. It's where you focus. You hope this is where games are.
00:33:51
Speaker 4: One or lot. The fourth quarter was important.
00:33:54
Speaker 1: It's not.
00:33:54
Speaker 4: It's done in the third.
00:33:55
Speaker 1: The hard work's done in the third and that's where Christmas Mums Australia are at right now. The two things to report from that group. Number one, Christmas pajamas are available for pre order already on Best and Less.
00:34:06
Speaker 4: You're welcome. Target will have theirs out very soon as well.
00:34:10
Speaker 1: But the secondly second thing to report is that Costco have got their Christmas stock coming in as we speak. So yes, if you want to join the Christmas Mon's Australia Facebook group, I'm in there all the time. It's a lot of fun. But this recommendation is more suited to the mums who clean Facebook group that I'm in or mums who organize. Are you willing?
00:34:34
Speaker 4: I need for control? My life's a mess.
00:34:36
Speaker 1: I spend my time looking at these groups, is what it is. This podcast episode is an episode of The Mel Robins Show and it's called It's a couple of weeks old now, so you have to scroll through. The title of it is Organize your Life and Home the simple system that gives you more time, energy and control.
00:34:52
Speaker 4: Mel Robins has let them, right, she's let them. Yes, I thought her vibe would have just been just let just leave it, man, I leave it all there whatever, Right.
00:35:02
Speaker 1: It's not. So believe me when I tell you I've listened to many, many decluttering podcasts, and this one is the best episode I've ever heard. I have now listened to it three times. That's how good it is.
00:35:15
Speaker 4: Going back.
00:35:16
Speaker 3: Does it have a philosophy? That's yeah, it does, And what's the philosophy.
00:35:19
Speaker 1: Does The philosophy is, don't think about decluttering your house, think about editing. So you guys are both editors, right, you edit in, you keep the good things in, and you get rid of the rubbish. Just edit your home to make it work for you. But the other thing they say, which I've never heard before, is that organized people are too lazy to look for things. So being organized is actually like way more efficient. I was just lazy to go look for things because everything's just got us place to go.
00:35:46
Speaker 2: So you don't have to rifle. Everything's just there. So actually you're making it easier for you to be lazy by putting in the hard.
00:35:53
Speaker 3: Something that you have organized after listening to this many things.
00:35:58
Speaker 4: I've done my bookshelf.
00:36:00
Speaker 1: I've edited my bookshelf, I've edited my pantry, i have edited my linen closet. Because what I'm doing now is at night time, everyone's in bed and the house is dark and quiet.
00:36:09
Speaker 4: I put this podcast on and I.
00:36:11
Speaker 1: Hyper focus on one area of my house and it's like it like motivates me to do it.
00:36:16
Speaker 4: Okay, all right, I can't start telling people about this episode.
00:36:20
Speaker 2: Recommend that people also just put us in your ears, just any of the episodes while you do that at night as well.
00:36:25
Speaker 4: It doesn't have to be mel it can be us. We'll be with you at rage clean.
00:36:30
Speaker 1: I could do extra episodes of this podcast work read out posts from the Christmas Mum's Facebook group.
00:36:36
Speaker 3: What's the opposite of ASMR? We should be wrapping this up now.
00:36:39
Speaker 4: Hey, that is all we have time for.
00:36:40
Speaker 1: Thank you Amelia for wrapping us up, and thank you Stacy Hicks, thank you for your follow thank you for listening, and.
00:36:45
Speaker 4: We'll see you again next week.
00:36:46
Speaker 3: Bye.
00:36:47
Speaker 4: MoMA.
00:36:48
Speaker 1: Mea acknowledges the traditional owners of Bland on which we have recorded this podcast
