The Cryptic Files Podcast - Belief, Psychology & the Paranormal with Peter Secco

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Welcome to the cryptic files podcast on the paranormal uk
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radio network And my guest tonight is peter secco an
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author award-winning filmmaker director screenwriter and musician also retired psychology
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professor So, yes here I am with peter this evening
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we um We'll have an interesting discussion about various aspects
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of the paranormal and investigation particularly, and especially as you
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have some experience in law enforcement, I think it is, or?
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Well, actually what I did is I was a criminal
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psychology professor and criminal psychologist. So where, other than teaching,
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I literally have, it was thousands of students here, which
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is really cool to be able to teach them because
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I had created seven courses in a program. And I
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did them from scratch. I was always interested in this
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stuff because I had been trained myself by former FBI profilers,
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the pioneers in the field that, you know, were the
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ones that really set the standard in the bar for it.
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So I decided to bring it to the, to the educational, uh, form.
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And then with that said, I eventually started consulting cases
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with different police organizations and then even teaching in-house all
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the way up to the federal level. Um, And then
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I got to know some folks. They were interesting blokes
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that were on the History Channel. Jeff Mudgett, he had
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American Ripper, which was all based on H.H. Holmes, who
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was one of the worst serial killers in American history,
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Chicago affair, which he was attributed to. But Jeff had
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his own theories. H.H. Holmes, which was his great, great, great,
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great grandfather, was also Jack the Ripper. And then I
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had network with the folks that there was a show Zodiac.
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And then another folks, another gentleman that was a really
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cool historian on Ted Bundy. And so from that, I was,
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you know, Andy, I put it all together, made these
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really fun courses that were available online. So I was
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able to teach this. I started out in lecture hall
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teaching this, but then I eventually brought it online, which
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I became more comfortable with because I was, It's funny,
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when I first started out in this field, as a,
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you know, I'll say a regular psychologist, I would treat
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people with post-traumatic stress disorder and depression, the whole nine yards.
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And it was around the mid-2000s, I had been in
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two car accidents, 12 days apart, where eventually, six months,
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I think it was later, the effects hit me where
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I actually had, because I had developed Meniere's, and vertigo,
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it eventually translated psychological for me to post-traumatic stress disorder.
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So those that I was helping and preaching to over
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the years, I got to witness it firsthand and see
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what it was like to be in their driver's seat.
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It's not pleasant. So it got very bad. The hallmark
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of the experience for me was I was on a
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late-night show one night, and they were using, at that time,
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really bright green screens, and the lights were so hot.
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that I had, we'll say, a Meniere slash vertigo moment
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where my PTS kicked in and I had no idea
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where I was for about 10 to 20 seconds. I
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just remember kind of browning out, that would be the
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term that we used. And then I found that as
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I was in the lecture hall, fluorescent lights started to
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trigger it. So I gradually got out of the classroom,
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out of the lecture hall, that is, and then I
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was teaching all online. And I absolutely loved it. It's
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a really... It's a great way to do it because
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then you can continually upload videos, links, and all this stuff.
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And through that, you're networking more, and I would be
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networking with more professionals out in the field. And I
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don't want to– I would be remiss if I didn't
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mention that. In 1996, I was, for fun, because I
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grew up loving– there was a series that came out
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in the 70s called Kolchak, The Night Stalker. Oh, yeah.
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That was Darren McGavern, fantabulous actor. And Chris Carter was
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so inspired that he, you know, that show inspired the X-Files,
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which I fell head over heels in love with.
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Loved it.
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So having taken courses also in pseudosciences of psychology, which
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would be experiential psychology and parapsychology, I put together a
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course called Understanding the Bare Normal. And the course was
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wait-listed within a few days to a week. It was
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absolutely the doors off me that folks wanted to get
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into this. And it was right as the X-Files was
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taking off. So, Andy, I got to blend the best
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possible worlds of putting policing also with parapsychology. And basically,
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it really was the X-Files to some degree.
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That's amazing. Absolutely. Well, coming back to the deaf motion
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stuff and the HHNs a bit later on, I do
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know a lot about Jack the Ripper. I've actually given
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tours of the river side, so it's a topic I
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know rather well, and perhaps we can talk about it
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a bit later on, but that sounds absolutely fascinating. So
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how long have you been doing this now?
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As far as the paranormal stuff, in all honesty, I
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would have to say 1999. I really go back that
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way because I love history. So our neck of the woods,
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you being a Brit, we had a lot of Brits
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live where I live in Niagara-on-the-Lake called a la War
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of 1812 So with that said, there's a lot of
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history here and I love it. And I'm trying to
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preserve the history. So I started taking historical sites that
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had haunted histories to them. So if you want to
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get kids interested or individuals that normally wouldn't be in history,
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all of a sudden you throw a little ghost story
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or an urban legend or superstition. And I was, oh, whoa,
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that's really cool. So in 1999, I did a show
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for local television that off the top of my head,
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I want to say it. The number that keeps coming
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to mind was 153 times it aired because it was
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so popular. We then followed it up in 2001, 2002-ish, roughly.
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And the sequel was really well. So I did what
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I kind of wanted to do in the paranormal stuff.
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And then I went traditional psychology. So I had a
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talk show in, was that Matters of the Mind I had?
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Or Mental Health Matters, that's what that show was. And eventually,
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he created a radio show out of Toronto called Matters
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of the Mind. So we just went strict to radio.
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So it was around that time where I was getting calls.
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Folks wanted more of the ghost stuff. They would go,
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are you ever going to do that again? Because I
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was doing everything and anything to do with psychology. And
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I've written countless books. I've written a lot of books,
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both in fiction and nonfiction. Right. Folks were reading my
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fiction books and going, and then the nonfiction books, which
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I had put out, which was called Niagara's Most Haunted,
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and it really became popular. So from that, I sprung
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board into, okay, let's do Niagara's Most Haunted TV show.
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We ran it for a season, and it was so
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popular that we ran it for three seasons. And I
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think part of the fun I had with it, Andy,
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is going to the Comic-Con. I'll give you that. I'm
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a big kid. I absolutely love science fiction. I love
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fantasy and anything to do. I grew up as a
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huge Superman and Spider-Man fan. So I'm going to the
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Comic-Con and I started meeting really cool folks from different
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TV shows. And I remember having coffee and lunch. He
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was having lunch and I sat down at a coffee
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with him. David Morrissey, he was on The Walking Dead.
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He played the governor and he's from your neck of
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the woods. So we got talking about haunted stuff in
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the UK and that. And then there was other folks
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that I would come across talking about that. But the
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problem was, is because it was a local network that
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had it, they wouldn't give me, so to speak, the
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abilities to put it out to a greater audience. So
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from that point there, I think it was around 2016, 2017,
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we created other versions of the show to where it
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got us to the Paranormal Profilers, which is now called
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It blows me away. It's the number one paranormal TV
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show in the world streaming through Paraflex, Roku, Apple TV, Amazon, Firestick.
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And it's just, it blows my mind. But once again,
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I believe if you've got a really good story and
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tied to the history, which we do, we bring folks
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on to tell about the historical context of the place,
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the haunted stories that are there. Then I bring in
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what I would call the paranormal profiling aspect. where I
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scrutinize it as a former educator of criminal profiling, which,
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as I said, I taught to cops and students that
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wanted to become criminologists and cops. And then we bring
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in psychic mediums that profile it from that way, real
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true professional investigators that have the equipment, and then individuals
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that are two of the top-notch in the world, in
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my humble opinion, Michelle DeRoche and Wayne Mellows, they have
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a spirit box, which they use. So what we're basically
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doing is getting a show and profiling it based on
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what the historian or the owner of the historical landmark
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is telling us. And then each of these groups goes
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in individually, unbeknownst. to the other what they find and
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then at the end I put it all together and
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I come to the conclusion whether there was indeed paranormal
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activity or there.
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Wasn't right it's absolutely fascinating that's an involved process so
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how did you first get into the paranormal itself you
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have early experiences.
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Or I always liked, for whatever reason, and I think
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my background, I'm half Italian, my dad's half French. So
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when I was younger, I was raised by my Nona
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until she passed. I believe I was four years old.
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And so my Nona never spoke as the best as
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I can remember, really flew in English. She was more Italian.
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And the TV would be on. So I don't think
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in the 70s, well, the 60s, she passed in 70.
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In the late 60s, whatever was on, there was none
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of this, you know, PG element and rating it. And
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especially when you've got a grandmother, you know, your Italian
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grandmother that really is not understanding what's on the TV.
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I remember shows on there like Dark Shadows. I'm just
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trying to think of the Twilight Zone was on. all
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these were on indie and it was like, this is great.
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And then I developed an interest because I would just
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be sitting there going, this is really cool. And there
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was a fear factor to it that I could, I
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was scared, but my fear was almost like the individual
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gets the adrenaline rush going down a roller coaster, the drop,
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the buildup, buildup, buildup, and then the drop. And then
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the kind of like the relief. And I think that's
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what kind of got me into it. And then, um,
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reading a lot of Stephen King books, reading Edgar Allen
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Poe stuff, um, watching Hitchcock. That was another show. I
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saw a lot as a kid watching the Hitchcock movies.
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It was absolutely perfect for me. And then in the seventies,
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it was all bets were off as soon as Amityville
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horror came out. And I remember watching Stephen King's, um,
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the shining as well as Salem's lot, which was the
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one that really rocked me in terms of really being frightened. Um,
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and I just liked it. I thought it was really interesting. Um,
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For me, it was a lot of make-believe-so, because I
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remember my father laughing. You know, we're watching something scary,
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and he's laughing at it. He just finds it amusing.
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And I think I was able to ground myself knowing
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that this stuff is cool. It's just entertainment. And I
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liked it. So if I'm being entertained, you know, as
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like Russell Crowe said in The Gladiator, are you not entertained?
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That was the approach. I absolutely loved it.
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So going from that watching TV and programs into that
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quote real world of any kind of experiences yourself at
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the early time before you were doing what you're doing
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now that you actually had.
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You know, as a kid, I will never, I would
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like to say, yeah, because I remember what I thought
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I saw one night and I don't know if it
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was because I was half asleep and I was having
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almost like a false awakening slash hypnagogic imagery thing. But
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I remember not feeling well. And in that state, I
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was kind of calling out to my mom. I wanted her.
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And I could see her standing at my door in
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her nightgown, like she had come and calmed me. And
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I felt better, but I must have been speaking out
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loud because within about two minutes after, my mom did come.
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And she was standing in the doorway the exact same
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way I had seen her and she came to me.
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So it was incidences like that that I started to,
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you know, kind of think, okay, this is kind of neat. Where,
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you know, is the mind playing tricks on me, even
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if it is, why? This is kind of cool. This
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is kind of fascinating. I never really had, quote, unquote,
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those types of experience that people would have However, being
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I was raised as a Catholic, but I identify more
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as a very strong Christian. I don't identify with a
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specific denomination. Whereas I know I've seen God show up
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and show up in my life that I've had incidences
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that have zero scientific rationale for how something can happen
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in real time before my very eyes, which I would
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honestly say it was a miracle. I've seen it with
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my own eyes. I know what I saw. I wasn't drinking.
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I was wide awake. It was broad daylight. I saw it.
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And it absolutely blew the doors off me. And so,
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you know, you can't go into the paranormal at all
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without first, you know, it's kind of funny. I come
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across people that will not believe in God, but yet
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they believe in ghosts and all this stuff. And I'm thinking, really?
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Explain that one to me. So I kind of... Yeah,
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I kind of went into it as a believer.
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That's very much me. I'm not a believer in God,
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but I certainly believe in the paranormal experiences I've had
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are very strange. But I have other theories as to
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what's going on with those. We'll definitely, if you want,
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talk about it a bit later on, certainly.
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Sure. It's just really interesting because it's, you know, people
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can go, well, it's the power of suggestion. It's self-hypnosis.
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And I, you know, I was trained in clinical hypnosis.
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I did it with clients. I did it to demonstrate
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in front of police on how to question eyewitnesses to
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try to get a better recollection of what is going on.
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So I know it's real and I know the difference
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between the two. So I know when I am hypnotized
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versus if this pen is 100% real. I'm holding it
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right now. I can feel it. And if I was
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to call my wife into the room and go, you
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see a pen? She would say, yeah, So we can
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instantly rule out mass hysteria or the power of the
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mind or suggestion because you and I are having this conversation,
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so she would have to have been part of it
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to at least have been brought in to me saying,
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I've got a pen and you corroborating it. But if
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she just comes in and I just say, what is that?
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She says, it's a pen. All bets are off in
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terms of the power of suggestion or mass hysteria.
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Of course. So would you be able to relate some
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of those experiences and the ones that you felt were
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miraculous or that don't have another possible explanation I mean
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I've been investigating the paranormal myself for 40 odd years
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I've probably got no more than about 20 occasions I
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can think of that I could outline that I would
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say I can't explain that not many but those I'm
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absolutely 100% convinced something paranormal occurred are you prepared to
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talk about those more detail you don't have to obviously
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you don't want to push it it's more too private
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for you to talk about but I'd be very intrigued.
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The one that's really interesting okay and this one here
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is prior to me doing the actual show. So I
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went through a period, I'm doing them out. So I
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went through a tremendous periods of loss where in a
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seven year period, I lost my aunt who is like
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my second Nona. And then I eventually lost her sister.
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She died and she did were both as close to
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me as my own mom. And they were my best friends.
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Then my uncle died a year right after. And then
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my dog died in my arms. He had a heart
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attack and it was one of the worst, easily the
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worst experiences I have ever witnessed or experienced in my
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entire existence because I loved him so much. That was
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my kid. And I'll never forget Andy, where I was
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going through a lot of heartache and a lot of,
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I needed a sign of faith and you know, God always,
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you know, basically said, ask, ask him when you're, you
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need something, reach out and ask him and especially for
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wisdom and you will get you through it. So for
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a year and a half, and this is the dead
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of winter, I had a tropical hibiscus tree in my
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kitchen and this thing barely had the leaves on it.
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And I would look at this and I was hardly
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watering this thing. And I remember standing right in front
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of it. And, you know, I, it's been so long.
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I don't know exactly what the exact words, but we're
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to paraphrase this Lord. I need you right now, please assign.
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I just need a sign. I need something to get
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me through what I'm going through right now. This is,
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you know, I don't know how much longer I can
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endure this. The next day, Andy, I woke up and
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there was a full balloon red flower on that tree.
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And let alone, there was barely any leaves on this tree,
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but there was definitely no, um, blossom about to start.
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The reason I know we, my wife and I have
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one of those identical, well, similar it's the identical type,
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but not the same one. It's out on our deck.
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And this thing hadn't bloomed for years until we put
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it outside. And because of the cross pollination, what we
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have here, we're on the side of the start next
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to a forest. This thing has bloomed two years in
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a row and doesn't bloom in the house. They're very
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hard to get to bloom if you've got nothing to
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make this thing bloom. That was the only tree, unless
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two silk trees can pollinate that thing, which I hardly
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doubt it. So I saw that flower and I almost
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passed out. I remember just staring at this in utter amazement.
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And the better part of this is, to the we
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have the moto right now we have another one coming
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up another bloom and that thing at best will last
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three to four days that thing in my kitchen back
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in the day when I needed a sign lasted almost
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two weeks the stick was flower stayed I saw everything
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I needed and I have, you know, I had more
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intense ones than that, but that one there was almost
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like I needed it at that point there to know
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that everything was going to be okay. And honest to God,
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literally everything started to just go so much better right
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then thereafter. It was just, everything just started to fall
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into place. My career went absolute leaps and bounds. I
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started to get out of the house again. Cause I
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was going, becoming a recluse from just the sadness and
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the grief I had went through, and everything just changed.
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It was absolutely phenomenal.
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Excellent. Those moments, yeah, they are something that you just
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don't want to explain. You just want to experience and
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feel that there is something. I mean, don't get me wrong.
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I'm not a believer in God in the traditional sense,
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but there's certainly stuff out there absolutely from my own
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experiences as well. I don't know what I would describe
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it as being. Certainly all the years I've been involved,
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whenever you get a theory of what you think is
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going on, something happens and it throws the theory. But
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I find it interesting that that kind of experience that
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there was something more going on. I mean, again, I'm
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not going to shoot into religious stuff necessarily, but certainly
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the idea.
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Of us.
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Able to help manifest things as well, that we are
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playing our own part in making these things become a reality,
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that our drive and energy can shape what's happening around
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us powerfully, which kind of comes on to one of
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the things you were mentioning when we spoke via email
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about the effect that investors themselves have on experiences and
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when it comes to gathering evidence and assessing what people
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have experienced how both us being involved in the psychological
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world know that how much the human mind can change
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what we're perceiving on how we are often not as
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quite as objective as we'd like to think we are
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but there's more subjectivity comes into what we explain what
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we experience I mean you mentioned that that can be
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something that can be an issue when you're working in
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this sort of field. What sort of thing do you
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find with that?
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I believe, you know, if we were to do a
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study and, you know, we can influence variables. I believe
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that if individuals go in with the expectation of this
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is hokey, I'm not going to see anything. You know, 99.9%
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of the time, they're not going to see anything. It's
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like the same phenomenon that happens with individuals that tell me,
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you can't hypnotize me. I can't be hypnotized. And my
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answer is always like, you are 100% correct. I can't.
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And they're kind of looking at me stunned, like they
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want me to try to convince them that I can.
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It's like, no, the reality is I can't. You've already
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made your mind up. And all hypnosis is self-hypnosis, which
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is a heightened state of awareness, which is tunnel vision.
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And you've already told me that you've got your mind
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set up that you can't be hypnotized. So you literally,
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whether you realize this or not, you have hypnotized yourself
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and convinced yourself you can't be hypnotized. So, you know,
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you've got this hyperbola going on where you've confounded yourself.
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You've actually backed yourself into your own corner. But then
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we go to the other side of the equation where
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individuals that say, yes, I want to be hypnotized. I
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think I am. You know, I drive my car sometimes
400
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and I don't even know how I get home. Or
401
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I read a book, I don't hear anything going on
402
00:23:30.150 --> 00:23:32.380
around me. Or I watch a TV show and I'm
403
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jumping or crying. I get so caught up in it. Well,
404
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I already know they're a tremendously good hypnotizable subject, especially
405
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if they're artistic and creative. But that's also like the
406
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individual that goes into, quote unquote, the haunted place and says,
407
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I'm expecting to see something. I know I'm going to
408
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see something. Well, the problem with that then, Andy, is
409
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it's the polarized opposite on the extreme of that. When
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you want to see something bad enough, you will see it.
411
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Even you create pareidolia for yourself where you think you're
412
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seeing something that's not there, but you've got yourself convinced.
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And let's be realistic. The unconscious mind. does not know
414
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the difference between reality and fantasy. So whatever you tell it,
415
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it will accept it. So the longer we live in
416
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these types of universes within our minds, our unconscious mind
417
00:24:30.269 --> 00:24:35.930
creates these neural pathways that create stereotypical judgments based on
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a perception almost immediately. Therefore, if you've already said, I'm
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walking into this place, I know it's haunted, I expect
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00:24:43.730 --> 00:24:47.480
to see something haunted, and I take this pen... drop it,
421
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you hear a bang. All of a sudden, they're convinced, yep,
422
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I've heard something. You're not going to convince them otherwise.
423
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They did not, you know, didn't see something or experience something.
424
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Just like if I go to the other ones that
425
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are convinced they're not going to see something, I'm not
426
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going to convince them that they did experience something. So
427
00:25:08.140 --> 00:25:12.700
the key here, the element is neutrality. You have to
428
00:25:12.740 --> 00:25:16.430
go in, basically on a baseline level, that says I
429
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don't expect anything and I'm not unexpecting anything. I will
430
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let the present moment happen and unfold in a moment
431
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to a moment awareness state, just as we should be
432
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living our lives. So therefore we don't go in to
433
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profile a place, let's say the investigators living off of
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past merits, expecting carbon copies of what has happened before
435
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and also not foretelling the future going, come hell or
436
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high water, I am going to see the War of
437
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1812 soldier in Peter's backyard, even if I've got to
438
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stay out there all night. And, you know, Andy, a
439
00:25:56.809 --> 00:25:59.670
fog burst could come through there. We could have a
440
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pocket of it. And all of a sudden that person
441
00:26:01.980 --> 00:26:04.619
will say, well, yeah, I know it's fog, but it
442
00:26:04.640 --> 00:26:07.200
could be possible that was War of 1812 fog. And
443
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that was, you know, a soldier trying to express themselves.
444
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So then we get into the whole, dichotomy or the
445
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dynamics of a fact is always 100% truth 100% of
446
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the time because it's happened and it's there. It's valid
447
00:26:25.599 --> 00:26:29.539
and it's reliable. The problem is our truths are not
448
00:26:29.599 --> 00:26:34.640
always factual. They're not always 100% facts because truth could
449
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be your perception of an event, my perception of an
450
00:26:38.039 --> 00:26:41.599
event that we declare as being our reality and we
451
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make that our reality. factual truth, but however, it's a truth,
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which is a mistruth, which in all reality is not
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a fact. So this is where the, you know, the
454
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rubber meets the pavement in terms of doing this, doing
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this the right way, where first of all, nobody is
456
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going to know the stories of the places we go
457
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into to investigate in advance. Because if I tell them, Yeah,
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they see this spirit walking across the floor all the
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time or in their dining room. What are they looking
460
00:27:16.150 --> 00:27:18.589
for immediately? Let's go to the dining room because here's
461
00:27:18.609 --> 00:27:22.829
the spirit. You know, it's kind of funny where it
462
00:27:22.910 --> 00:27:29.960
absolutely makes me laugh where you get these amateur paranormal
463
00:27:30.000 --> 00:27:33.799
investigators or the hobbyists. Where's the first place they want
464
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to freaking go? The basement. Okay.
465
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Okay.
466
00:27:37.269 --> 00:27:40.509
So when individuals, quote, unquote, of ghosts, when they were alive,
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00:27:40.809 --> 00:27:43.109
how many people lived in a basement in an old
468
00:27:43.190 --> 00:27:47.630
fruit cellar or underneath the stairs or whatever? No. And
469
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I remember a psychic medium who was a dear friend
470
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of mine. She actually worked with police organizations around the world.
471
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She passed away, but she was a big sister and
472
00:27:56.730 --> 00:28:00.190
one of the ones that convinced me beyond anything from
473
00:28:00.210 --> 00:28:03.250
things she told me. And she was 100% accurate to
474
00:28:03.289 --> 00:28:06.569
the exact day, which to this day, I'm still like, okay,
475
00:28:06.589 --> 00:28:10.769
how'd you do it? I remember her saying, you get
476
00:28:10.809 --> 00:28:15.920
these paranormal people that go to cemeteries to try to communicate.
477
00:28:16.900 --> 00:28:18.819
And she said, well, how many people lived in the
478
00:28:18.859 --> 00:28:20.279
cemetery when they were alive?
479
00:28:20.799 --> 00:28:21.279
Nobody.
480
00:28:21.980 --> 00:28:23.579
And she goes, you're going to the wrong place. If
481
00:28:23.599 --> 00:28:26.240
you really want to find something, if you are going
482
00:28:26.259 --> 00:28:28.799
to find something, go to the place that had the
483
00:28:28.839 --> 00:28:32.119
most life or the person gave their most life. And
484
00:28:32.160 --> 00:28:34.490
if anything, that's where you will see it. or go
485
00:28:34.539 --> 00:28:38.559
to a place where an individual was snatched from the world, tragically,
486
00:28:39.220 --> 00:28:42.640
a war of 1812 or a tragic death. And that
487
00:28:42.759 --> 00:28:46.660
you might get residual energy and find something, but to
488
00:28:46.920 --> 00:28:52.849
actually go, you know, to the creepy addict or the basement,
489
00:28:53.029 --> 00:28:57.690
I always laugh because nobody's in there. Like, why would
490
00:28:57.710 --> 00:28:59.509
they be in there? If you know, if you're, if
491
00:28:59.529 --> 00:29:01.319
you are going to hang them, hang out with them,
492
00:29:01.880 --> 00:29:04.400
And the bottom line is, let's say there really is
493
00:29:04.420 --> 00:29:09.009
a spirit or a demonic entity, it's not like you
494
00:29:09.029 --> 00:29:10.769
don't need to go to the attic to find them.
495
00:29:10.910 --> 00:29:13.549
Wherever you're going to go, in that place, I hate
496
00:29:13.569 --> 00:29:16.089
to say it, they're probably going to follow you, which
497
00:29:16.150 --> 00:29:18.470
also means if they follow you there, you might have
498
00:29:18.509 --> 00:29:22.049
a hitchhiker follow you home. Good luck with that.
499
00:29:22.309 --> 00:29:24.230
Yes, stuff you don't want to miss. Absolutely true. One
500
00:29:24.670 --> 00:29:27.210
of the places I've investigated a few times over here
501
00:29:27.670 --> 00:29:31.079
is called the Kelverton Hatch Secret Nuclear Bunker. Not so
502
00:29:31.119 --> 00:29:33.619
secret now, of course. It's well known. But we know
503
00:29:33.640 --> 00:29:35.079
for a fact no one died in it. It was
504
00:29:35.119 --> 00:29:39.150
built during the 1950s for preparation for nuclear war. It
505
00:29:39.170 --> 00:29:41.240
would have been one of the possible... sites the UK
506
00:29:41.259 --> 00:29:44.160
government would have retreated to had there been a nuclear war.
507
00:29:44.740 --> 00:29:47.099
And it's very haunted. It's very strange. It's got a
508
00:29:47.099 --> 00:29:49.900
strong atmosphere about it. It's the number of sightings that
509
00:29:49.920 --> 00:29:52.680
we've experienced in there. We've got some rather strange video
510
00:29:52.700 --> 00:29:55.039
footage we recorded there of a strange face that appears
511
00:29:55.079 --> 00:29:58.579
behind a curtain, literally. It's the medical curtains, and there's
512
00:29:58.619 --> 00:30:00.700
a brick wall behind it, but there's a face between
513
00:30:00.720 --> 00:30:03.089
the two of them. Yet we know no one died there.
514
00:30:03.609 --> 00:30:06.750
There's rumours that maybe someone died during construction, but there's
515
00:30:06.789 --> 00:30:09.769
no proof of that. There's no record of anyone dying,
516
00:30:09.809 --> 00:30:13.650
yet it's incredibly active, very atmospheric. And yet, as I say,
517
00:30:14.109 --> 00:30:17.839
people lived and worked there, didn't die there, but it's
518
00:30:17.859 --> 00:30:20.599
a nuclear bunker. It's preparation for nuclear war, so the
519
00:30:20.640 --> 00:30:23.839
atmosphere would always have been quite heavy, atmospheric, laden with
520
00:30:23.960 --> 00:30:25.960
worry and concern, because people would go there for like
521
00:30:26.019 --> 00:30:28.700
six months at work. And it would be, if anyone
522
00:30:28.720 --> 00:30:30.339
wouldn't see, they wouldn't know where they'd gone because it
523
00:30:30.359 --> 00:30:34.019
was completely secret. So that definitely works into that atmosphere,
524
00:30:34.180 --> 00:30:37.220
the places it feels very strange. And we've seen a
525
00:30:37.269 --> 00:30:40.710
number of strange occurrences in there, including sightings of people
526
00:30:40.730 --> 00:30:44.690
in military uniform. Obviously, the military were based there, so
527
00:30:44.710 --> 00:30:47.329
we know that's to be a fact. Other people have
528
00:30:47.349 --> 00:30:50.750
been seen. Objects have definitely moved on occasion. But again,
529
00:30:51.029 --> 00:30:53.190
no one lived there. Yeah, it's got a strong action
530
00:30:53.230 --> 00:30:56.059
about it. So, yeah, right, I mean, it's, It's horror films,
531
00:30:56.099 --> 00:30:57.599
isn't it? The basement or the attic, that's where they
532
00:30:57.619 --> 00:31:00.799
all seem to end up. I remember The Conjuring 2,
533
00:31:00.799 --> 00:31:03.339
which is based on the Enfield Poltergeist, which I know
534
00:31:03.440 --> 00:31:06.039
very well indeed. All sorts of major activity in the
535
00:31:06.079 --> 00:31:08.420
movie in the basement, except the building didn't have a basement.
536
00:31:08.460 --> 00:31:11.349
There's no basement there whatsoever. But it was expected to
537
00:31:11.410 --> 00:31:14.369
be down there, so they added one quite nicely. I'm
538
00:31:14.390 --> 00:31:18.630
afraid we tend to call it Hollywoodisation of the paranormal.
539
00:31:18.769 --> 00:31:20.390
It is a bit of a problem when it comes
540
00:31:20.410 --> 00:31:22.859
to this kind of expectation. I used to be involved
541
00:31:22.920 --> 00:31:26.279
in an events company that used to organise overnight stays
542
00:31:26.319 --> 00:31:28.619
for members of the public called Fright Nights. It was
543
00:31:28.640 --> 00:31:31.279
one of the first around that did that back in
544
00:31:31.299 --> 00:31:33.960
the early 2000s. And, you know, you'd have people come
545
00:31:34.019 --> 00:31:37.240
along to those who were equal, opposite ends of the scale,
546
00:31:37.299 --> 00:31:40.019
very much believed and expected to have an experience. Often
547
00:31:40.059 --> 00:31:41.480
the husband was the one that came along with the
548
00:31:41.519 --> 00:31:42.859
wife who didn't believe in any of it and didn't
549
00:31:42.880 --> 00:31:46.099
expect anything to happen. And sometimes things happened that would
550
00:31:46.140 --> 00:31:48.700
confound them, would surprise them. And often they'd say at
551
00:31:48.740 --> 00:31:50.269
the end, oh, I still don't believe in ghosts, but
552
00:31:50.289 --> 00:31:51.920
when I did see that or I heard that thing,
553
00:31:51.940 --> 00:31:54.960
whatever it was, happened. So you have that degree of
554
00:31:55.039 --> 00:31:58.819
expectation that there are times we've had where someone's been
555
00:31:58.859 --> 00:32:02.029
in a room. Some people have experienced something strange and
556
00:32:02.089 --> 00:32:04.730
the same group of people, another member of it has
557
00:32:04.769 --> 00:32:07.150
had no experience at all in the same room at
558
00:32:07.170 --> 00:32:09.390
the second time. And I didn't hear that. I didn't
559
00:32:09.410 --> 00:32:12.710
see anything. What are you talking about? So the subconscious
560
00:32:12.769 --> 00:32:16.329
plays a big part in interpretation of these experiences, certainly,
561
00:32:16.910 --> 00:32:19.980
but they are actual real experiences as well. I certainly believe.
562
00:32:20.000 --> 00:32:27.140
A hundred percent, you know, I, and the funny part is,
563
00:32:27.779 --> 00:32:31.039
is even the timing of when we do this, if
564
00:32:31.079 --> 00:32:36.700
you go in the daytime, it's not. And for all
565
00:32:36.720 --> 00:32:38.980
intents and purposes, we do a lot of the interview
566
00:32:39.019 --> 00:32:41.829
stuff during the day because we don't need the lighting
567
00:32:41.869 --> 00:32:45.589
in the places, but you know, people will go, well,
568
00:32:46.029 --> 00:32:49.390
you should go at nighttime because that's, you know, when
569
00:32:49.430 --> 00:32:52.529
the creeps and the spooks come out at night, it's like, really?
570
00:32:53.140 --> 00:32:55.109
And that's, you know, it's this whole, once again, you know,
571
00:32:55.130 --> 00:32:58.829
as you're talking about atmospheres and that, and that's, that's
572
00:32:58.869 --> 00:33:00.589
just it. You know, if you look at a lot
573
00:33:00.609 --> 00:33:02.670
of these horror movies, as you, you know, you brought
574
00:33:02.750 --> 00:33:07.470
up the conjuring too, and a lot of some of
575
00:33:07.509 --> 00:33:11.200
these other ones, I remember poltergeist, all of a sudden
576
00:33:11.220 --> 00:33:16.180
there's storms going on. The sky is black. Actually, our
577
00:33:16.200 --> 00:33:20.000
sky is green right now. We're having a massive thunderstorm.
578
00:33:21.140 --> 00:33:24.930
And it's interesting. Because if I was, I could literally
579
00:33:26.369 --> 00:33:30.869
have folks over here and convince them. And, you know,
580
00:33:31.490 --> 00:33:35.269
if you look at Stanley Milgram's famous psychology study from
581
00:33:35.289 --> 00:33:40.390
the 1960s, which demonstrated lab coat phenomenon. So if you're
582
00:33:40.410 --> 00:33:44.349
an expert in the field, you must know. And anything
583
00:33:44.390 --> 00:33:48.190
you say must be the truth. So therefore, if I
584
00:33:48.230 --> 00:33:50.930
was to have folks here right now, Andy, I'll say, well,
585
00:33:51.470 --> 00:33:54.319
we have a sky out there It's pouring out there.
586
00:33:54.720 --> 00:34:02.349
I'm watching lightning flashes right now. It's September. The days
587
00:34:02.390 --> 00:34:08.309
are getting shorter. These are all conducive elements for spirits
588
00:34:08.369 --> 00:34:12.809
to come out, especially here in Niagara-on-the-Lake, Canada, because we
589
00:34:12.829 --> 00:34:16.170
had the War of 1812, and the thunder that's going
590
00:34:16.269 --> 00:34:18.630
off almost sounds like cannons and the musket fire.
591
00:34:18.650 --> 00:34:20.090
You can actually hear it just then.
592
00:34:21.889 --> 00:34:25.139
And I... I can have people convinced. I remember I
593
00:34:25.199 --> 00:34:27.500
had fun with this. When I first moved into this
594
00:34:27.559 --> 00:34:30.309
house here, I bought it before I had met my wife.
595
00:34:30.630 --> 00:34:33.349
I lived here alone the first year I was here.
596
00:34:34.050 --> 00:34:35.670
I had a B & B here out of it.
597
00:34:35.750 --> 00:34:37.329
So I actually had folks from your neck of the
598
00:34:37.369 --> 00:34:39.489
woods and around the world come because they had read
599
00:34:39.530 --> 00:34:42.750
books of mine. And it was kind of funny. They
600
00:34:42.789 --> 00:34:46.719
were here to stay, but there started to become an
601
00:34:46.949 --> 00:34:50.059
expectation of they wanted a ghost tour from me.
602
00:34:50.079 --> 00:34:51.260
Okay.
603
00:34:51.639 --> 00:34:54.860
That is actually getting hilarious. So I actually would hold court.
604
00:34:54.960 --> 00:34:57.320
We were on the side of an escarpment. So we
605
00:34:57.340 --> 00:34:59.639
were overlooking the forest and that stuff. So I would
606
00:34:59.679 --> 00:35:01.500
sit down there on the deck with them, have a
607
00:35:01.920 --> 00:35:05.360
glass or two of wine and tell them stories because
608
00:35:05.380 --> 00:35:08.179
we are in wine country after all. And this is
609
00:35:08.260 --> 00:35:11.780
what almost was an expectation that I must know where
610
00:35:11.820 --> 00:35:14.489
all the haunted places are here to go there. And
611
00:35:14.510 --> 00:35:16.570
it would be like, send us to a really good one,
612
00:35:16.769 --> 00:35:20.110
a real one. Like, okay, what is a real one? Okay.
613
00:35:20.150 --> 00:35:24.030
So to speak. But it was all that phenomenon, the
614
00:35:24.070 --> 00:35:27.280
lab coat phenomenon. They'd seen me on TV, they read books.
615
00:35:27.889 --> 00:35:31.380
So therefore I must know where, you know, where the
616
00:35:31.400 --> 00:35:35.199
good place would be. And that's, once again, that actually
617
00:35:35.239 --> 00:35:40.179
will create or tie into the atmosphere where it's hilarious.
618
00:35:40.219 --> 00:35:46.199
You know, I've gone into quote unquote, um, a psychic fair.
619
00:35:47.980 --> 00:35:50.579
And really, why do you need all the decoration?
620
00:35:50.599 --> 00:35:50.670
Yes.
621
00:35:50.980 --> 00:35:55.480
Because I laugh at that. Whereas, as I said, my
622
00:35:55.539 --> 00:35:59.420
friend who was a psychic medium worked to find murder
623
00:35:59.440 --> 00:36:03.739
suspects and missing people, missing people, missing kids predominantly. And
624
00:36:03.780 --> 00:36:05.960
she was really good at it. She found them. And
625
00:36:05.980 --> 00:36:07.710
I used to ask her, how do you do it?
626
00:36:07.739 --> 00:36:09.539
She goes, Peter, I don't know. Ever since I was
627
00:36:09.579 --> 00:36:12.539
a little girl, I had this. People thought I was
628
00:36:12.599 --> 00:36:16.179
in a witchcraft. People. thought I was crazy. She had
629
00:36:16.199 --> 00:36:20.119
been adopted. She was out West in Canada and moved
630
00:36:20.159 --> 00:36:21.699
down to this neck of the woods. And I met
631
00:36:21.739 --> 00:36:26.179
her as an adult, obviously. And she goes, I don't know.
632
00:36:26.199 --> 00:36:29.030
She goes, I just don't know. I've always had this.
633
00:36:30.369 --> 00:36:32.690
And I remember her saying, she put a point blank
634
00:36:32.710 --> 00:36:37.449
to me. If you go, she goes, if you tell
635
00:36:37.489 --> 00:36:39.929
your class, or she even said it, she spoke in
636
00:36:39.949 --> 00:36:42.940
front of the class. She said, If you go to
637
00:36:42.980 --> 00:36:46.219
the psychic fairy, all these mediums and they pull out
638
00:36:46.260 --> 00:36:49.820
their crystals, their crystal ball, their cards. She said, the
639
00:36:49.860 --> 00:36:52.059
first thing you should tell them, put them away. If
640
00:36:52.099 --> 00:36:54.619
you're really good at what you do, I don't need
641
00:36:54.639 --> 00:36:57.349
the entertainment to look at cards or a ball. Just
642
00:36:57.389 --> 00:36:59.530
tell me. Cause you should be that good and not
643
00:36:59.550 --> 00:37:01.570
need any of them. And I remember her saying that
644
00:37:01.590 --> 00:37:05.010
because once again, that's the atmosphere. I've seen some of
645
00:37:05.050 --> 00:37:08.750
them where they've got those foggers. There's the fogs coming
646
00:37:08.829 --> 00:37:10.510
up on the side. They've of course you got to
647
00:37:10.530 --> 00:37:13.940
have the candles. Those things going on. And you have
648
00:37:14.000 --> 00:37:17.030
a whole lack of it's funny because I used to
649
00:37:17.090 --> 00:37:23.710
teach workshops on color therapy for psychology. And the color
650
00:37:23.849 --> 00:37:27.340
often tied to mysticism is royal purple. So when you
651
00:37:27.360 --> 00:37:29.219
go to a lot of these places, what do you see?
652
00:37:29.460 --> 00:37:33.599
Purple and gold. So it's a shtick. And the funny
653
00:37:33.639 --> 00:37:35.800
part is, and it would be a really, really cool study.
654
00:37:36.829 --> 00:37:40.190
is to ask these quote-unquote individuals that are, you know,
655
00:37:40.250 --> 00:37:43.269
proposing to be psychics and mediums at these psychic fairs,
656
00:37:44.469 --> 00:37:47.429
did that purple, did you pick that purple intentionally or
657
00:37:47.449 --> 00:37:49.590
did it pick you, so to speak? Does, you know,
658
00:37:50.090 --> 00:37:53.969
kind of in that vein, because it's all about image
659
00:37:54.250 --> 00:37:56.650
and it's all about, as you said, Andy, atmosphere.
660
00:37:57.349 --> 00:38:00.510
Yeah, creating the illusion of something. I've said the same
661
00:38:00.530 --> 00:38:01.889
sort of thing, you know, go to these kind of
662
00:38:01.949 --> 00:38:04.300
fairs and you see people in flowery dresses and all
663
00:38:04.320 --> 00:38:06.760
sorts of strange things paraphrased hanging around them. And you
664
00:38:06.800 --> 00:38:08.699
see some guy or woman's just sitting there pretty quiet
665
00:38:08.719 --> 00:38:11.659
in a nice tablecloth, nothing else. That's the person to
666
00:38:11.679 --> 00:38:13.599
go to because they don't need all that flam. They
667
00:38:13.639 --> 00:38:16.079
know their stuff. They don't have to put on some
668
00:38:16.099 --> 00:38:18.760
kind of a show to impress you. I mean, some
669
00:38:18.820 --> 00:38:20.800
of them might argue, well, you expect that kind of thing,
670
00:38:20.820 --> 00:38:22.000
so I have to put the show on because you
671
00:38:22.050 --> 00:38:24.449
expect it. But if you really know what you're doing,
672
00:38:24.469 --> 00:38:26.150
you don't need all that palaver, definitely.
673
00:38:27.570 --> 00:38:32.670
No, you don't. Like if you were profiling, even as
674
00:38:32.730 --> 00:38:35.010
a profiler, you go and look at a case and
675
00:38:36.130 --> 00:38:40.150
you're not, you're only looking at what's presented, you know,
676
00:38:40.250 --> 00:38:43.320
the residuals of what's there at crime scene. So you're
677
00:38:43.340 --> 00:38:46.840
profiling what you're given. You're not bringing in all of
678
00:38:46.920 --> 00:38:51.340
these devices and trying to pick stuff apart that way,
679
00:38:51.679 --> 00:38:54.219
because that's left for the scientists. That's for your CSI
680
00:38:54.260 --> 00:38:58.619
team and all that stuff. So once again, it's almost
681
00:38:58.699 --> 00:39:02.670
like if you really are gifted and you know what
682
00:39:02.710 --> 00:39:06.940
you're doing, you, really shouldn't need those tools. If you're, you're,
683
00:39:06.960 --> 00:39:10.360
you know, you're professing to have the psychic ability and
684
00:39:10.400 --> 00:39:12.440
all that kind of stuff. And, you know, I think
685
00:39:13.280 --> 00:39:17.489
in all, you know, in all honesty, I think a
686
00:39:17.550 --> 00:39:19.710
lot of these, I hate to say it, it's a
687
00:39:19.750 --> 00:39:20.710
carnival act.
688
00:39:21.170 --> 00:39:21.750
Yeah. Yeah.
689
00:39:22.449 --> 00:39:25.260
They do it. But the problem is, is it's extremely
690
00:39:25.320 --> 00:39:30.780
damaging for some people, you know, financially, that if they
691
00:39:30.800 --> 00:39:33.059
keep buying into this, and I do know of stories
692
00:39:33.119 --> 00:39:37.940
where individuals were using these ridiculously ongoing and it became habitual,
693
00:39:38.000 --> 00:39:42.260
much like online gambling or even pornography addiction where they
694
00:39:42.300 --> 00:39:45.010
couldn't stop and they're paying this person or the flip
695
00:39:45.030 --> 00:39:49.179
side of this is, is, uh, taking advantage of somebody
696
00:39:49.440 --> 00:39:53.480
that's grieving. Yes. And I seen that side of the
697
00:39:53.519 --> 00:39:56.219
coin too, working with police where they went and shut
698
00:39:56.280 --> 00:39:59.280
some of these shops down because they were bilking seniors
699
00:39:59.860 --> 00:40:03.380
or they were taking advantage of somebody in grief. And,
700
00:40:03.420 --> 00:40:07.659
you know, it's, you know, it's the same premise of,
701
00:40:07.949 --> 00:40:11.829
you know, in psychology or in medicine, you know, do
702
00:40:11.869 --> 00:40:14.889
no harm to your patient or your client and leave
703
00:40:14.909 --> 00:40:17.289
them better off. try to leave them better off than
704
00:40:17.329 --> 00:40:20.989
you found them. But unfortunately there's a lot of them
705
00:40:21.050 --> 00:40:24.409
out in this field that I've seen in, you know,
706
00:40:24.650 --> 00:40:28.639
doing the show and also in psychology that I look
707
00:40:28.679 --> 00:40:32.139
at them and I go, wow, they're, um, they really
708
00:40:32.179 --> 00:40:34.300
do take advantage of weak and vulnerable people.
709
00:40:34.860 --> 00:40:35.280
Yes.
710
00:40:35.380 --> 00:40:38.000
There is a sociopathic element to that sort of thing.
711
00:40:38.059 --> 00:40:40.599
The opportunity to, as you say, make a quick buck
712
00:40:40.659 --> 00:40:43.219
out of somebody who's in a poor state of grieving
713
00:40:43.280 --> 00:40:46.639
a situation and, um, They are. They're simply just making
714
00:40:46.679 --> 00:40:48.719
money out of the people who are having a bad time.
715
00:40:48.780 --> 00:40:52.000
And it is awful. But unfortunately, that's often what happens
716
00:40:52.039 --> 00:40:54.889
in society. People see a way of making money out
717
00:40:54.949 --> 00:40:58.010
of other people without morals or ethics. And they're going
718
00:40:58.050 --> 00:41:01.969
to do that, unfortunately. Again, it reflects on all of
719
00:41:02.050 --> 00:41:03.969
us then. It makes us all appear to be of
720
00:41:04.030 --> 00:41:06.519
that kind of nature, that we are out there to
721
00:41:06.579 --> 00:41:09.860
try and make money out of people because of their situation.
722
00:41:09.920 --> 00:41:13.570
But talk about the TV program you mentioned before. I mean,
723
00:41:13.590 --> 00:41:15.309
you mentioned before, how did it all come about with
724
00:41:15.329 --> 00:41:17.929
the TV show? Well, the show is plural.
725
00:41:20.070 --> 00:41:24.199
The show, I think is more, it started out for
726
00:41:24.260 --> 00:41:26.980
all intents and purposes as a hobby. It would be
727
00:41:27.039 --> 00:41:30.179
folks just getting together and doing this for fun, so
728
00:41:30.199 --> 00:41:34.119
to speak. And then, you know, we were taping stuff
729
00:41:34.199 --> 00:41:39.550
and showing people on social media as well as putting
730
00:41:39.610 --> 00:41:41.869
it out there on YouTube and that stuff. And it
731
00:41:41.889 --> 00:41:45.500
got a following before. And the key thing here with
732
00:41:45.539 --> 00:41:48.099
this is, first of all, we have zero budget. There's
733
00:41:48.119 --> 00:41:51.039
no money in this. So everybody's doing this for free.
734
00:41:52.099 --> 00:41:55.420
And it really isn't free because it's their time. And
735
00:41:55.559 --> 00:41:59.579
I know myself, I edit the stuff. I put it together.
736
00:41:59.599 --> 00:42:04.460
And I've self-trained myself. I've never gone to film school.
737
00:42:05.420 --> 00:42:08.800
I've never gone to learn how to use a camera, editing,
738
00:42:08.940 --> 00:42:11.599
or any of that stuff. It's all self-taught. And then
739
00:42:11.619 --> 00:42:13.780
the folks that are coming out to help out like
740
00:42:13.820 --> 00:42:17.440
the psychics and the mediums and the investigators, they already
741
00:42:17.480 --> 00:42:20.139
have all their equipment and stuff. They're coming out because
742
00:42:20.260 --> 00:42:23.559
it's just, it's like a hobby. It really is. It's
743
00:42:23.619 --> 00:42:31.789
almost like the individuals that re-commemorate and reenact old wars
744
00:42:31.849 --> 00:42:34.110
or whatever. So they all get all dressed up and
745
00:42:34.130 --> 00:42:36.210
they go out there and they do it. Or the
746
00:42:36.250 --> 00:42:40.940
individuals that go to and do cosplay. It's, It really
747
00:42:41.000 --> 00:42:46.059
is no different versus my wife. She breeds dogs and
748
00:42:46.099 --> 00:42:48.280
she goes to dog shows and does all that stuff.
749
00:42:49.280 --> 00:42:53.130
And that's her passion. It's something she loved. But with this,
750
00:42:53.889 --> 00:42:57.010
I find it intriguing. It's interesting. But once again, I
751
00:42:57.050 --> 00:42:58.829
love the history. I love to go to these places,
752
00:42:59.389 --> 00:43:02.289
but I enjoy the folks I get to do this with.
753
00:43:02.489 --> 00:43:06.010
So there's a camaraderie, there's bantering, there's friendships. And I
754
00:43:06.050 --> 00:43:08.739
think that is what makes it really neat where we
755
00:43:08.760 --> 00:43:13.670
get a stories. or shows out of this, but really,
756
00:43:13.949 --> 00:43:17.409
the people that are doing this are doing it more
757
00:43:17.449 --> 00:43:21.539
or less for fun, and there is no payoff in it,
758
00:43:22.030 --> 00:43:26.489
meaning we don't have to come up with a reality that, okay,
759
00:43:26.510 --> 00:43:29.809
we found a ghost, or we have to prove something. No,
760
00:43:30.230 --> 00:43:33.190
we just take what we're given, and we'll report back,
761
00:43:33.849 --> 00:43:36.909
and this way, here you know, since we're not being
762
00:43:36.969 --> 00:43:41.719
paid for this, since there's no sponsorship, since it's all
763
00:43:41.760 --> 00:43:45.960
being done free, there's no obligation. We don't have to
764
00:43:46.460 --> 00:43:47.960
sell something that's not real.
765
00:43:50.159 --> 00:43:52.610
So where's the most interesting place you've been to?
766
00:43:54.989 --> 00:44:04.090
The most interesting place? I could say it could be
767
00:44:04.239 --> 00:44:06.519
any one of the forts. I've been to four of
768
00:44:06.559 --> 00:44:09.389
the forts from the War of 1812, including One on
769
00:44:09.409 --> 00:44:15.539
the American side. And they're interesting because of the architecture
770
00:44:15.579 --> 00:44:19.239
of the history, especially the American fort. Old Fort Niagara
771
00:44:19.260 --> 00:44:21.719
in Youngstown, New York, because it has a Spanish castle
772
00:44:21.760 --> 00:44:25.019
in it. And that was built in the 1700s, I believe,
773
00:44:25.039 --> 00:44:30.650
late 1700s. And it's absolutely mind-blowing. And they supposedly have
774
00:44:31.309 --> 00:44:33.869
the ghost of a headless soldier that people do see
775
00:44:34.309 --> 00:44:39.519
because apparently two American soldiers got into... a disagreement one
776
00:44:39.559 --> 00:44:41.889
night while they were drinking and it was over a
777
00:44:41.949 --> 00:44:46.289
woman and one cut the other one's head off, took
778
00:44:46.809 --> 00:44:50.710
his head and chucked it into the Niagara river and
779
00:44:50.750 --> 00:44:54.179
threw his body down this old well that's in the castle.
780
00:44:54.320 --> 00:44:59.579
And people see this headless soldier walking around there. And
781
00:44:59.599 --> 00:45:05.110
I always just, the atmosphere, once again, the history, I
782
00:45:05.210 --> 00:45:08.920
think a lot of it, also has to do with
783
00:45:08.960 --> 00:45:12.360
the senses, not only seeing it, but you can smell
784
00:45:12.440 --> 00:45:14.340
an old place. You smell the old wood, you smell
785
00:45:14.380 --> 00:45:19.920
the bricks, the sounds around there, especially when they're doing
786
00:45:20.099 --> 00:45:26.590
demonstration or reenactments with muskets, cannons, all of that cool stuff.
787
00:45:27.699 --> 00:45:33.510
And I think what ties into it too is when
788
00:45:33.570 --> 00:45:37.710
I say history is longevity. The fact that this connects
789
00:45:37.809 --> 00:45:40.769
us to the ghosts of the past, which are our ancestors,
790
00:45:41.389 --> 00:45:44.449
that is what makes these places very interesting for me.
791
00:45:45.289 --> 00:45:47.590
You know, I could turn it around and say, okay, well,
792
00:45:49.909 --> 00:45:52.449
roughly a six-minute drive for me, six, seven-minute drive is
793
00:45:52.489 --> 00:45:56.090
the Screaming Tunnel on Warner Road in Night Falls. It's
794
00:45:56.110 --> 00:46:00.150
the most famous tunnel in Canada, if not North America,
795
00:46:00.909 --> 00:46:04.230
because it's supposedly haunted by the ghost of a girl.
796
00:46:05.119 --> 00:46:08.219
that will blow out a light, a lit match, or
797
00:46:08.239 --> 00:46:10.519
a candle at midnight for going in there because she
798
00:46:10.559 --> 00:46:13.440
was murdered and her ghost stays in there. What made
799
00:46:13.480 --> 00:46:18.039
that tunnel so famous was in 1980, they filmed Stephen
800
00:46:18.079 --> 00:46:21.090
King's book adaptation of A Dead Zone in there. So
801
00:46:21.110 --> 00:46:24.429
it had Christopher Walken was in the movie, Martin Sheen,
802
00:46:24.949 --> 00:46:30.099
Tom Skerritt. There was other minor actors and actresses in it.
803
00:46:30.710 --> 00:46:33.010
But Christopher Walken was the big fish in the movie.
804
00:46:34.289 --> 00:46:36.989
And it was because there was a, in the movie,
805
00:46:37.010 --> 00:46:39.050
there is, they find a dead body in that tunnel
806
00:46:39.090 --> 00:46:42.610
and Christopher Walken who plays a psychic medium goes in
807
00:46:42.630 --> 00:46:44.650
there and tries to read the body to try to
808
00:46:44.690 --> 00:46:47.199
see who did this. You know, they're trying to get
809
00:46:48.429 --> 00:46:52.840
his opinion on it or his insight into what really happened. Well,
810
00:46:53.719 --> 00:46:56.000
people come from all around back in the day. They
811
00:46:56.019 --> 00:46:58.619
want to see it, especially locals. They go there all
812
00:46:58.659 --> 00:47:02.199
the time, hoping to see this ghost. The tunnel is very,
813
00:47:03.619 --> 00:47:07.460
eerie looking at nighttime. Even during the day, it has
814
00:47:07.519 --> 00:47:13.730
a bit of something that looks a bit uncanny to it.
815
00:47:14.539 --> 00:47:17.900
It was used as an old tunnel for farmers before
816
00:47:18.960 --> 00:47:21.480
it went under the escarpment when they put the railway
817
00:47:21.579 --> 00:47:24.659
in so they could still move their produce from one
818
00:47:24.719 --> 00:47:29.099
side of the escarpment to the other. However, with that said,
819
00:47:29.119 --> 00:47:30.630
it was built right at the start of the 1900s,
820
00:47:33.340 --> 00:47:36.489
So they would have had police reports. And the police
821
00:47:36.530 --> 00:47:40.969
reports don't show or don't exist that anybody was ever
822
00:47:41.030 --> 00:47:44.730
murdered or died in that tunnel. So it's a tremendously
823
00:47:44.809 --> 00:47:49.750
really cool fabricated legend that still goes on. What makes
824
00:47:49.809 --> 00:47:53.070
it intriguing is the actual tunnel, the history, the way
825
00:47:53.090 --> 00:47:57.320
it looks, that it looks like it's something stuck in time.
826
00:47:58.539 --> 00:48:01.480
But as far as the story, the reality of it goes,
827
00:48:01.500 --> 00:48:03.869
there was nobody ever murdered in there. But still, it
828
00:48:03.909 --> 00:48:07.860
makes a really good story at Halloween. And unfortunately, the
829
00:48:07.889 --> 00:48:11.820
generations are starting to die off. That would go there.
830
00:48:12.579 --> 00:48:17.900
It's becoming a forgotten sort of legacy rite of passage
831
00:48:17.960 --> 00:48:21.429
to go there as a teenager. And, you know, there's
832
00:48:21.449 --> 00:48:25.750
so many immigrants coming to Canada now. That will be
833
00:48:25.809 --> 00:48:29.469
something that will go under the radar. And a lot
834
00:48:29.489 --> 00:48:31.130
of them will never find it. They will never know.
835
00:48:31.659 --> 00:48:34.030
And I put out a film that's actually screening in
836
00:48:34.070 --> 00:48:38.170
film festivals around the world called Niagara's 13 Ghosts, which
837
00:48:38.849 --> 00:48:41.630
I've taken 13 of the most haunted places in the
838
00:48:41.690 --> 00:48:44.329
region that have ghost stories, as well as three other
839
00:48:44.389 --> 00:48:49.630
superstition legend stories. Putting that out there with the hopes
840
00:48:49.690 --> 00:48:54.349
that I can bring visitors and immigrants that are coming
841
00:48:54.389 --> 00:48:56.909
here so that they may pick up that baton and
842
00:48:56.949 --> 00:48:58.409
at least go and check it out, maybe share it
843
00:48:58.429 --> 00:49:00.090
with their kids and scare the heck out of their kids.
844
00:49:02.159 --> 00:49:04.159
Interesting to say that it's a legend but there's no
845
00:49:04.239 --> 00:49:06.019
truth to it. I often wonder with those sort of
846
00:49:06.059 --> 00:49:09.539
situations how much people's belief that there is something there
847
00:49:10.480 --> 00:49:13.650
leads to there being something there, kind of generates the
848
00:49:13.710 --> 00:49:17.710
tulpa effect, if you like, that then creates a presence
849
00:49:17.789 --> 00:49:20.349
that's there that's based on a strong belief. that, hey,
850
00:49:20.369 --> 00:49:23.670
if enough people think about this thing having a real
851
00:49:23.710 --> 00:49:26.510
paranormal presence, then it starts to respond as if it
852
00:49:26.630 --> 00:49:27.130
had one.
853
00:49:31.730 --> 00:49:38.300
Once again, I've seen people want to believe it's so bad,
854
00:49:39.570 --> 00:49:43.269
where I brought somebody to that tunnel that was supposedly
855
00:49:43.309 --> 00:49:50.110
a medium. And I hypnotized this individual. And supposedly this
856
00:49:50.170 --> 00:49:53.070
individual was communicating with the ghost of the dead girl.
857
00:49:53.090 --> 00:49:57.199
The only problem was I never told the person there
858
00:49:57.219 --> 00:49:59.000
never was a dead body in there of a girl,
859
00:49:59.280 --> 00:50:03.159
unless somebody brought that in there, unless it's the residual
860
00:50:03.239 --> 00:50:06.739
energy of the dead body from the movie, the dead zone,
861
00:50:07.570 --> 00:50:16.000
the actor's, staying there but I'm watching this and I
862
00:50:16.079 --> 00:50:22.340
remember as if it was yesterday a dear friend of
863
00:50:22.360 --> 00:50:25.289
mine she was there she's a federal officer and she
864
00:50:25.329 --> 00:50:29.190
already knew like this is hokey as hell but yet
865
00:50:30.389 --> 00:50:36.610
I think sometimes individuals I don't know if they want
866
00:50:36.639 --> 00:50:43.840
to believe so bad in something one way or another
867
00:50:43.909 --> 00:50:46.570
to either convince others and to demonstrate that, yes, I
868
00:50:46.610 --> 00:50:51.170
am a medium watch me because I am communicating. Therefore,
869
00:50:51.210 --> 00:50:53.309
if you believe me, you'll believe what I'm telling you.
870
00:50:53.409 --> 00:50:55.090
And then you'll come and spend money for a reading.
871
00:50:56.130 --> 00:50:59.070
Or I wonder if they have to actually convince themselves.
872
00:50:59.650 --> 00:51:03.880
They do this for their own ego or their own delusion.
873
00:51:04.179 --> 00:51:10.300
And I will use that term delusion because how other
874
00:51:10.340 --> 00:51:13.530
way can I put it? That if a person is
875
00:51:13.590 --> 00:51:15.730
in a heightened state of awareness under hypnosis and they're
876
00:51:15.750 --> 00:51:18.329
communicating with the ghost of a dead girl that was
877
00:51:18.369 --> 00:51:20.570
never ever killed or who the hell are they communicating with?
878
00:51:21.010 --> 00:51:24.239
And then more so is this person even hypnotized in
879
00:51:24.260 --> 00:51:26.659
the first place? And are they role-playing trying to make
880
00:51:26.699 --> 00:51:28.679
a fool out of me as well too? That I
881
00:51:28.739 --> 00:51:29.940
don't take too lightly too.
882
00:51:32.199 --> 00:51:32.420
Yeah.
883
00:51:32.460 --> 00:51:35.550
Given the fact of what we were doing there and
884
00:51:36.099 --> 00:51:38.519
being me being asked, do this, do this, do this,
885
00:51:38.559 --> 00:51:40.900
because I've been asked many times to do stuff like this,
886
00:51:41.760 --> 00:51:46.760
and I did give in that one time, and it
887
00:51:46.840 --> 00:51:49.579
all boils down to, and I think it's the key thing, Andy,
888
00:51:49.760 --> 00:51:52.099
you know, and I think it's a question you could
889
00:51:52.159 --> 00:51:55.780
ask anybody, what is the motive behind somebody doing what
890
00:51:55.800 --> 00:51:56.139
they're doing?
891
00:51:56.920 --> 00:51:57.159
Yeah.
892
00:51:58.639 --> 00:51:59.219
Only they know.
893
00:51:59.820 --> 00:52:00.079
Yeah.
894
00:52:00.099 --> 00:52:03.539
I mean, there was the Philip experiment, if you're familiar
895
00:52:03.559 --> 00:52:06.769
with that, where a group tried to create a ghost
896
00:52:06.829 --> 00:52:10.610
themselves that then began to respond as if it was
897
00:52:10.630 --> 00:52:13.730
a ghostly presence of its own doing things on communicating
898
00:52:13.769 --> 00:52:15.809
ways that were not part of what they had planned
899
00:52:15.829 --> 00:52:18.510
to do if you've not come across the phillips experiment
900
00:52:18.550 --> 00:52:20.710
it's well worth looking into because basically the idea was
901
00:52:20.730 --> 00:52:22.809
they're trying to create a ghost and they appear to
902
00:52:22.849 --> 00:52:24.869
succeed because it was doing stuff it was they were
903
00:52:24.889 --> 00:52:27.110
having a reaction from it so it's worth looking into
904
00:52:27.150 --> 00:52:29.090
that one if you've not come across it before because
905
00:52:29.139 --> 00:52:32.150
it does it's it's quite well known over here now,
906
00:52:32.170 --> 00:52:34.070
it's become quite famous for it, but it did seem
907
00:52:34.130 --> 00:52:37.349
to be that they were generating something that was behaving
908
00:52:37.809 --> 00:52:40.170
differently to what they wanted it to be or to do.
909
00:52:40.780 --> 00:52:42.889
It didn't appear to be anybody in the group was
910
00:52:42.909 --> 00:52:46.019
deliberately faking stuff, but a kind of a group mind
911
00:52:46.079 --> 00:52:49.480
was at work and they were causing something to occur
912
00:52:49.519 --> 00:52:51.500
that was beyond what they'd planned it to do, which
913
00:52:51.559 --> 00:52:52.539
was quite fascinating.
914
00:52:54.179 --> 00:52:58.519
And that's just it. The question that I then have
915
00:52:58.559 --> 00:53:04.429
to ask you, I'll ask you, In that outcome, does
916
00:53:04.449 --> 00:53:05.590
that mean it was a real ghost?
917
00:53:06.530 --> 00:53:09.360
No, I wouldn't say it was. But there was something
918
00:53:09.389 --> 00:53:12.880
going on. Something was responding as if it were a
919
00:53:13.039 --> 00:53:15.300
ghostly presence. I'm not talking about demons or anything like that.
920
00:53:15.340 --> 00:53:18.980
I'm talking about something being there that was responding in
921
00:53:19.039 --> 00:53:22.300
a way that adhered to what they believed they were doing.
922
00:53:23.010 --> 00:53:25.170
Yep. Now, the funny part of this would be, and
923
00:53:25.190 --> 00:53:29.389
I've done demonstrations where I've brought polygraphers into my lecture
924
00:53:29.429 --> 00:53:34.019
hall before when I was teaching. We're now talking... 18
925
00:53:34.019 --> 00:53:36.199
years ago where I would bring in a polygraph artist,
926
00:53:36.400 --> 00:53:40.559
that's the real deal with the police. If you gave
927
00:53:40.599 --> 00:53:44.000
them a polygraph test, Andy, and asked them, did you
928
00:53:44.099 --> 00:53:48.239
create a ghost? Were you communicating with a ghost? And
929
00:53:48.280 --> 00:53:49.940
they said, yes. Do you believe they would pass the
930
00:53:49.960 --> 00:53:50.659
polygraph test?
931
00:53:51.360 --> 00:53:53.730
I think they would. I think they would certainly believe
932
00:53:53.769 --> 00:53:56.369
they were, whether they were independent of what they believe
933
00:53:56.409 --> 00:53:58.409
they were doing is reality or not. It's another matter,
934
00:53:58.429 --> 00:54:00.309
but I think they would say that yes, they would
935
00:54:00.349 --> 00:54:02.590
pass that because they genuinely believe they were doing something.
936
00:54:04.440 --> 00:54:08.900
And you see, hence that becomes the reality. And this
937
00:54:08.980 --> 00:54:14.320
is where we have to be really, you know, vigilant
938
00:54:15.420 --> 00:54:23.420
in regards to scrutinizing situations where it's always going to
939
00:54:23.460 --> 00:54:26.519
be real to a person if they were there and
940
00:54:26.539 --> 00:54:29.019
that's their experience. And at the end of the day,
941
00:54:29.079 --> 00:54:30.960
it's not up to me to talk them out of
942
00:54:31.000 --> 00:54:33.949
that experience. or to try to take that experience away
943
00:54:33.989 --> 00:54:38.469
because that doesn't mean it didn't happen for them. And
944
00:54:38.510 --> 00:54:41.469
that is where, you know, we get into some of
945
00:54:41.510 --> 00:54:46.570
these problems though, where that's okay on a one-on-one basis.
946
00:54:46.650 --> 00:54:48.969
But as soon as you start duping other people and
947
00:54:49.070 --> 00:54:53.650
suckering them in and then putting a financial tag to it, then,
948
00:54:53.670 --> 00:54:56.210
you know, that's where I believe it's problematic.
949
00:54:56.570 --> 00:54:58.340
Yeah, I would agree with you. Certainly there we go on.
950
00:54:58.909 --> 00:55:00.710
looking for financial gain for these sort of things. And
951
00:55:00.730 --> 00:55:03.070
that is a strong motivation to fake all sorts of stuff. Definitely.
952
00:55:04.510 --> 00:55:08.090
Exactly. And then once again, we still have to discern
953
00:55:08.110 --> 00:55:13.130
between the two. There's those like you described where, yeah,
954
00:55:13.150 --> 00:55:16.159
they actually believed a hundred percent that something was real.
955
00:55:17.010 --> 00:55:23.980
So they're 100% being authentic versus the ones that could
956
00:55:24.039 --> 00:55:27.900
create something through you say, AI special effects or whatever.
957
00:55:29.050 --> 00:55:33.780
And no, it's fake, but yet put something out so
958
00:55:34.300 --> 00:55:39.800
realistic that people will actually buy that story over the
959
00:55:39.880 --> 00:55:42.980
one you're telling because they can actually see something. And
960
00:55:43.000 --> 00:55:44.880
that's where we get into this whole idea of what
961
00:55:44.920 --> 00:55:47.340
seeing is believing. If I can see it, that must
962
00:55:47.380 --> 00:55:47.840
have been true.
963
00:55:49.199 --> 00:55:51.239
That seems to be the case of most of the
964
00:55:51.559 --> 00:55:54.590
more famous cases you were saying. So many of them
965
00:55:54.659 --> 00:55:56.769
proved to be not what they appeared to be at all.
966
00:55:57.190 --> 00:55:59.340
Amityville is a good example, of course. You could certainly
967
00:55:59.360 --> 00:56:01.860
argue there's nothing ever happened there other than, unfortunately, the
968
00:56:01.880 --> 00:56:04.320
murders and the whole paranormal stuff was completely made up.
969
00:56:04.940 --> 00:56:07.360
I mean, there's good evidence to suggest a lot of
970
00:56:07.380 --> 00:56:09.480
it was certain stuff when the Warrens were involved was
971
00:56:09.579 --> 00:56:12.059
very much made up. But is there a kernel of
972
00:56:12.139 --> 00:56:14.519
truth to what really happened there? It becomes hard to
973
00:56:14.579 --> 00:56:17.159
tell because there's such a lot of stories wrapped around it.
974
00:56:17.659 --> 00:56:19.579
Another good example for me is the Enfield Poltergeist. I've
975
00:56:19.599 --> 00:56:22.280
done a lot of research into that. I interviewed one
976
00:56:22.360 --> 00:56:25.280
of the guys, Lion Playfair, who was actually directly involved
977
00:56:25.320 --> 00:56:27.320
in it. They'd said the same. yeah the girls were
978
00:56:27.340 --> 00:56:28.929
faking stuff there's no doubt about it they were they
979
00:56:28.969 --> 00:56:31.969
were causing stuff they were mucking about but underneath that
980
00:56:32.090 --> 00:56:36.489
there was genuine paranormal events occurring which they couldn't fake
981
00:56:36.769 --> 00:56:39.730
not two girl one preteen one teenage girl couldn't possibly
982
00:56:39.769 --> 00:56:42.469
be faking there was something happening but there was so
983
00:56:42.530 --> 00:56:46.230
much hype around it so much speculation so many stories
984
00:56:46.289 --> 00:56:48.849
being told i mean again for the warrens another good
985
00:56:48.889 --> 00:56:52.730
example their version of what they did there compared to
986
00:56:52.769 --> 00:56:55.400
what guy lion plays for and um the other chap there,
987
00:56:55.519 --> 00:56:58.239
his name's skipping for a second, said they were doing it.
988
00:56:58.280 --> 00:57:00.980
It's very different, you know, so he's telling the truth
989
00:57:01.000 --> 00:57:02.840
and you are left with that mystery of, well, what
990
00:57:03.000 --> 00:57:05.829
really happened? Because these people all claim to have been
991
00:57:05.869 --> 00:57:08.769
there and given very different stories, but there are overlaps
992
00:57:08.829 --> 00:57:12.130
in the stories suggesting there was truth behind what they did,
993
00:57:12.510 --> 00:57:15.650
what they saw and experienced, but then gets into the
994
00:57:15.690 --> 00:57:18.239
media and gets bent completely out of shape and then
995
00:57:18.280 --> 00:57:22.699
you have things like The Conjuring, which admittedly is a fictionalization,
996
00:57:22.820 --> 00:57:26.269
but I've had online discussions about that film and people
997
00:57:26.550 --> 00:57:28.409
have a search. Oh, no, no, that film was accurate.
998
00:57:28.429 --> 00:57:31.150
That's what really happened there. And I'll say to you, well,
999
00:57:31.269 --> 00:57:34.010
I interviewed Guy Bligh and Playfair and they tell you this. Well,
1000
00:57:34.320 --> 00:57:36.960
how did you know he was there? You're saying they
1001
00:57:37.000 --> 00:57:39.599
weren't there. How did you know he was there? He
1002
00:57:39.639 --> 00:57:42.760
wasn't certainly there. Absolutely he was there. But, you know,
1003
00:57:42.780 --> 00:57:44.300
they're saying, well, how do you know he's telling you
1004
00:57:44.340 --> 00:57:46.460
the truth? So it gets into all that again. It
1005
00:57:46.559 --> 00:57:49.159
gets into the reality of what really happens. A lot
1006
00:57:49.179 --> 00:57:51.650
of these bigger paranormal cases become very difficult. It all
1007
00:57:51.690 --> 00:57:53.230
gets muddied and completely confused.
1008
00:57:55.630 --> 00:57:59.090
I think you nailed it right there where the problem
1009
00:57:59.210 --> 00:58:04.710
is where the believability, where it gets lost in translation
1010
00:58:06.389 --> 00:58:14.519
as soon as the sensationalism or the exaggeration either in,
1011
00:58:14.820 --> 00:58:19.139
you know, insidiously creeps in or is added to it
1012
00:58:20.280 --> 00:58:26.110
or it's, created through the more the story is being
1013
00:58:26.190 --> 00:58:29.510
told and more people are telling it and are trying
1014
00:58:29.530 --> 00:58:32.789
to make it sound more interesting so they will have
1015
00:58:33.389 --> 00:58:37.389
their listeners attention where they embellish it the part the
1016
00:58:37.429 --> 00:58:40.889
hard part is is once you get one individual that
1017
00:58:40.929 --> 00:58:44.730
has seemed to be credible that has taken now the
1018
00:58:44.789 --> 00:58:51.079
embellished story and shared it that is where i think
1019
00:58:51.300 --> 00:58:57.409
a lot of these situations get to. Um, so say
1020
00:58:57.429 --> 00:59:02.320
for example, uh, I'm just trying to pick, pick one
1021
00:59:02.360 --> 00:59:19.059
off the top of my head. Um, We have a
1022
00:59:19.099 --> 00:59:22.739
place down the road. It's called Willow Bay. It's a mansion.
1023
00:59:22.820 --> 00:59:26.760
It's beautiful. It looks like something that you would see,
1024
00:59:27.539 --> 00:59:30.179
you know, this thing was from the 1800s. And it's
1025
00:59:30.199 --> 00:59:34.449
like one of the first mansions in Canada. And it's historical.
1026
00:59:34.590 --> 00:59:37.300
Alexander Hamilton built it with his wife, Hannah, and they had,
1027
00:59:37.320 --> 00:59:38.659
I don't know how many kids, I think it was
1028
00:59:38.679 --> 00:59:42.000
like 10 to 14 kids in that range, but he
1029
00:59:42.039 --> 00:59:45.019
died before they ever filmed or ever finished building it.
1030
00:59:46.639 --> 00:59:49.760
And supposedly it's haunted. It's a school of restoration now
1031
00:59:50.000 --> 00:59:53.760
of artifacts and architecture stuff from the old days down here.
1032
00:59:54.500 --> 01:00:00.429
So we filmed in there several times. And, I can
1033
01:00:00.489 --> 01:00:04.440
tell you firsthand, I'm the biggest skeptic and cynic there
1034
01:00:04.480 --> 01:00:06.000
is when it comes to a lot of this stuff.
1035
01:00:07.139 --> 01:00:11.960
So we filmed in there, Andy. And honestly, honest to God,
1036
01:00:12.219 --> 01:00:15.929
I felt like I was in the men's washroom. I
1037
01:00:15.989 --> 01:00:18.250
had to go in there. I was washing my hands.
1038
01:00:18.869 --> 01:00:21.809
And as I'm washing my hands, I almost screamed at
1039
01:00:21.849 --> 01:00:24.880
the top of my lungs because it felt like somebody
1040
01:00:24.909 --> 01:00:28.530
had pinchers and they pinched my Achilles tendon. And this
1041
01:00:28.550 --> 01:00:31.610
thing hurt like the mother of all buggers. It hurt.
1042
01:00:33.130 --> 01:00:37.630
And it also happened again. We were filming in another
1043
01:00:37.690 --> 01:00:42.400
place where they actually create the architecture of the bricks.
1044
01:00:42.960 --> 01:00:46.440
And I'm standing there watching my crew filming. And I
1045
01:00:46.480 --> 01:00:48.400
got that in the back of my ankle again. Now
1046
01:00:48.440 --> 01:00:50.480
the funny part was, is I've torn my Achilles. I
1047
01:00:50.519 --> 01:00:54.300
was heavily into sports when I was younger into my
1048
01:00:54.340 --> 01:00:56.480
young adult years. That's when I finally gave it up. I,
1049
01:00:57.400 --> 01:01:03.179
But I had blew my Achilles tendon. And ironically, I thought, okay,
1050
01:01:03.219 --> 01:01:05.110
that's what that is acting up. But no, the problem
1051
01:01:05.119 --> 01:01:09.389
was it was on the other foot. So we're doing
1052
01:01:09.469 --> 01:01:14.750
another room where we're filming back in the mansion. And Wayne,
1053
01:01:14.789 --> 01:01:19.489
that's part of the ghost box session, the spirit box session.
1054
01:01:20.570 --> 01:01:22.940
I hear him yell. And I go, what the hell
1055
01:01:22.960 --> 01:01:27.320
are you doing, dude? Because he's laughing. He goes... I
1056
01:01:27.340 --> 01:01:33.320
just felt like something bit my ankle. So they did
1057
01:01:33.360 --> 01:01:38.510
a walkthrough after, and I believe they were communicating with something.
1058
01:01:39.869 --> 01:01:43.150
And as it turned out, they believe what it was,
1059
01:01:43.210 --> 01:01:47.050
was a raccoon. There was a, but perhaps it was
1060
01:01:47.130 --> 01:01:50.210
either a rabid raccoon that had bit members of the
1061
01:01:50.250 --> 01:01:54.679
family because the ghost box session revealed and even the
1062
01:01:54.719 --> 01:01:58.889
psychic medium said, that he, you know, the owner was
1063
01:01:58.909 --> 01:02:03.329
going mad. And interestingly, they made the connection, well, if
1064
01:02:03.389 --> 01:02:07.429
you got rabies back in the 1800s, that would be
1065
01:02:07.469 --> 01:02:09.380
enough to make you go mad because that's one of
1066
01:02:09.389 --> 01:02:12.139
the side effects. It does affect your brain. Well, the
1067
01:02:12.239 --> 01:02:15.420
irony of this is, is Wayne and I compared notes,
1068
01:02:15.699 --> 01:02:18.280
and I could tell you I've been bitten by, we
1069
01:02:18.300 --> 01:02:21.219
have five dogs. You know, they play bite, and I've
1070
01:02:21.239 --> 01:02:23.860
had cats, and I know what a bite feels like.
1071
01:02:23.900 --> 01:02:25.760
That felt like an animal bite. There was no mistake
1072
01:02:25.780 --> 01:02:27.559
in it. And Wayne said, yeah. He goes, I was
1073
01:02:27.619 --> 01:02:30.739
expecting to turn around and look for a little chihuahua
1074
01:02:30.780 --> 01:02:35.079
biting my Achilles. Now, the funny part of this is,
1075
01:02:35.260 --> 01:02:37.860
is if any other people would have experienced it up
1076
01:02:37.909 --> 01:02:41.469
until that point, it would have been, okay, I must
1077
01:02:41.489 --> 01:02:44.269
have just tweaked something or I must have experienced it.
1078
01:02:45.289 --> 01:02:47.949
The funny part is, is when we put the profilers
1079
01:02:48.050 --> 01:02:51.760
out this year to stream worldwide through Paraflex and all
1080
01:02:51.780 --> 01:02:56.769
the other streaming platforms, The first episode is there's a
1081
01:02:56.829 --> 01:02:59.530
haunted mansion on a hill. That's the Willow Bank episode.
1082
01:03:00.130 --> 01:03:04.449
We actually, through AI, because that's the old, one of
1083
01:03:04.469 --> 01:03:07.380
the reasons I love AI now is because we have
1084
01:03:07.420 --> 01:03:09.559
no budget. We can't hire the actors. And how do
1085
01:03:09.599 --> 01:03:13.260
you create a chihuahua or a raccoon biting somebody's ankle?
1086
01:03:13.539 --> 01:03:16.099
We can do it with AI. And obviously it's AI
1087
01:03:16.119 --> 01:03:18.260
because we explain, we tell people at the end, this
1088
01:03:18.300 --> 01:03:22.409
is AI. But with that said, now that people see that,
1089
01:03:22.730 --> 01:03:27.639
that go there, They are more likely to experience anything
1090
01:03:27.960 --> 01:03:31.679
if they've watched the episode. They've listened to me because
1091
01:03:31.760 --> 01:03:34.039
I must know what I'm talking about. I'm a retired doctor.
1092
01:03:34.489 --> 01:03:36.570
Wayne must know what he's talking about because he does
1093
01:03:36.610 --> 01:03:39.869
the Ghost Box session. And he's also a horror author.
1094
01:03:40.210 --> 01:03:44.530
He writes books. He likes Jack the Ripper stuff and
1095
01:03:44.570 --> 01:03:49.699
vampire stuff. We're talking old medieval, like the old stuff. Therefore,
1096
01:03:49.820 --> 01:03:52.480
he must know what he's talking about. So if you
1097
01:03:52.539 --> 01:03:56.050
even felt something on your ankle, that gives credibility that
1098
01:03:56.139 --> 01:03:59.429
that's obviously the ghost dog or the ghost raccoon that
1099
01:03:59.469 --> 01:04:02.909
is roaming around biting people. Or even if they don't
1100
01:04:03.050 --> 01:04:06.670
feel it, some person might actually point out, oh, watch out.
1101
01:04:06.829 --> 01:04:09.789
If you feel anything on your ankle, that is that
1102
01:04:10.309 --> 01:04:13.860
that did it to you. But that's the story. The
1103
01:04:13.889 --> 01:04:15.800
more if we were to tell it, and if I
1104
01:04:15.840 --> 01:04:18.460
was to tell it, I'm doing a talk in a
1105
01:04:18.500 --> 01:04:22.639
couple of weeks at the local library here. I'm sure
1106
01:04:22.699 --> 01:04:25.489
if I tell that again, the more I tell it,
1107
01:04:26.000 --> 01:04:29.500
it makes it more real. It has to be real.
1108
01:04:30.280 --> 01:04:33.199
And if I take it further and say, yeah, after
1109
01:04:33.239 --> 01:04:35.360
that happened to me, I could barely walk out of
1110
01:04:35.409 --> 01:04:38.469
that building. It was just horrific. And I keep adding
1111
01:04:38.739 --> 01:04:43.090
onto that each time. There's where the embellishment come. Whereas
1112
01:04:43.150 --> 01:04:45.570
the first time we talked about it in the episode,
1113
01:04:45.590 --> 01:04:47.789
it was like, yeah, we obviously, it felt like, I,
1114
01:04:48.289 --> 01:04:51.889
you know, Honestly, I felt something bite me. I yelped twice.
1115
01:04:51.989 --> 01:04:56.909
It hurt. And I'm looking around. I don't want to
1116
01:04:56.929 --> 01:04:59.949
say hoping you see something because I'm sitting there thinking like, damn,
1117
01:05:00.289 --> 01:05:04.289
I hope it's not some rabid rodent rat or raccoon
1118
01:05:04.329 --> 01:05:06.050
biting me. That's the last thing I want to see.
1119
01:05:06.760 --> 01:05:09.429
But there is a relief factor where, well, okay, well,
1120
01:05:10.119 --> 01:05:13.179
there wasn't anything that bit me. However, with that said,
1121
01:05:13.900 --> 01:05:16.380
it's then, okay, but something did bite me and I
1122
01:05:16.400 --> 01:05:20.219
know it bit me. But yet there's no teeth marks
1123
01:05:20.280 --> 01:05:24.079
in it. That was the funny part. But the more
1124
01:05:24.139 --> 01:05:26.639
I tell this story, and if I embellish it, it
1125
01:05:26.679 --> 01:05:30.530
goes back to where we create the poltergeist legend in
1126
01:05:30.590 --> 01:05:33.170
the story or the Amityville. If it's a credible person
1127
01:05:33.190 --> 01:05:36.010
that talks about it, you know, when the Warrens started
1128
01:05:36.050 --> 01:05:38.789
talking about this stuff, then it's like, okay, all bets
1129
01:05:38.849 --> 01:05:40.969
off of Ed and Lorraine are talking about this stuff.
1130
01:05:41.030 --> 01:05:42.860
It must be real. Take it to the bank.
1131
01:05:42.880 --> 01:05:46.639
It's funny. I've actually just remembered one part of the,
1132
01:05:47.059 --> 01:05:50.579
thing that Guy Lyon was saying about the visitation, shall
1133
01:05:50.599 --> 01:05:55.000
we say, to the Enfield experience at Enfield Haunting. I'm
1134
01:05:56.320 --> 01:06:00.349
not for working today for some reason. Ed turned to
1135
01:06:00.389 --> 01:06:03.090
Guy Lyon and said quietly, there's money to be made
1136
01:06:03.190 --> 01:06:07.889
out of this. That says everything. That's why they were there.
1137
01:06:08.190 --> 01:06:11.199
And he said, I'd rather you left now because this
1138
01:06:11.260 --> 01:06:12.800
is not what this is about at all. I'm not
1139
01:06:12.840 --> 01:06:15.010
trying to make money out of this, but One of
1140
01:06:15.050 --> 01:06:19.739
those things, unfortunately, money gets into these things. So where
1141
01:06:19.780 --> 01:06:21.780
would you like to go that you've not been yet?
1142
01:06:24.659 --> 01:06:32.860
Hmm. What would be interesting, and it's funny because I
1143
01:06:34.300 --> 01:06:39.289
have an agent that represents my writing, and she's Romanian.
1144
01:06:40.789 --> 01:06:44.829
And Michel Desrochers, who was part of the Paranormal Profilers,
1145
01:06:44.989 --> 01:06:49.429
has been to Romania, has been to Vlad Tepes Castle,
1146
01:06:49.889 --> 01:06:53.190
and has worked and done stuff with Bram Stoker's family.
1147
01:06:54.449 --> 01:06:56.309
That would be a pretty good place to go there
1148
01:06:56.550 --> 01:06:57.369
and see that castle.
1149
01:06:58.469 --> 01:07:01.409
Funny enough, I mentioned earlier on before we started, on
1150
01:07:01.429 --> 01:07:04.650
the first podcast I used to do, it was a
1151
01:07:04.829 --> 01:07:08.070
live three-hour show on a Sunday evening before podcasting. This
1152
01:07:08.090 --> 01:07:12.500
was back in the early 20s. tens the couple whose
1153
01:07:12.579 --> 01:07:15.000
show it was i became part of steven suit tag
1154
01:07:15.019 --> 01:07:19.760
i've been there twice actually on actual investigations i'm obviously
1155
01:07:20.039 --> 01:07:23.739
arranged and it was very quiet nothing really happened on
1156
01:07:23.860 --> 01:07:27.570
both occasions very atmospheric but there was very nothing to
1157
01:07:27.610 --> 01:07:29.369
read to report which is a real shame because you
1158
01:07:29.429 --> 01:07:31.309
imagine something like that and they were real atmosphere to
1159
01:07:31.329 --> 01:07:34.750
be really quite eventful this is pretty it's interesting being
1160
01:07:34.769 --> 01:07:36.550
there it's pretty quiet which.
1161
01:07:36.489 --> 01:07:39.929
Is yeah You know, and that's what it is. It's
1162
01:07:39.969 --> 01:07:42.530
all based on... I think I would go there more
1163
01:07:42.610 --> 01:07:47.110
because I enjoy Bram Stoker's Dracula. I enjoy the whole,
1164
01:07:47.510 --> 01:07:51.500
you know, the movies and the stories that have come out.
1165
01:07:51.760 --> 01:07:54.159
But I would say, you know, the funny thing is,
1166
01:07:54.239 --> 01:07:58.840
is the places I've been to, because I'm a movie junkie,
1167
01:07:59.000 --> 01:08:01.610
are those places that I've actually been to that were
1168
01:08:01.699 --> 01:08:02.530
used on sets.
1169
01:08:03.949 --> 01:08:04.269
Right.
1170
01:08:04.489 --> 01:08:08.420
And I would say, perhaps... I've been to one of
1171
01:08:08.440 --> 01:08:12.480
the greatest places I'll ever see and been to. Like
1172
01:08:12.519 --> 01:08:15.679
for me, it's no longer there at Universal Studios. When
1173
01:08:15.699 --> 01:08:19.840
it first opened, they actually had the Bates house from Psycho.
1174
01:08:19.979 --> 01:08:20.319
Yes.
1175
01:08:20.500 --> 01:08:20.779
Yeah.
1176
01:08:21.600 --> 01:08:24.020
And I got to go to it. And so for me,
1177
01:08:24.640 --> 01:08:27.060
that's it. I've already been to the place I really
1178
01:08:27.100 --> 01:08:28.779
wanted to go because it's one of my favorite movies
1179
01:08:28.819 --> 01:08:31.199
of all time. And I absolutely love Hitchcock.
1180
01:08:31.560 --> 01:08:32.260
So I got to go there.
1181
01:08:32.819 --> 01:08:35.220
You know, I have myself standing there. Up in front
1182
01:08:35.239 --> 01:08:37.699
there were Norman, you know, had stood in that stuff,
1183
01:08:37.760 --> 01:08:40.979
Anthony Perkins. And I thought that's really cool. Absolutely. And
1184
01:08:41.020 --> 01:08:43.600
I've been to a couple of these other places too.
1185
01:08:45.770 --> 01:08:48.649
Movie sets, films, you know, TV sets and that kind
1186
01:08:48.689 --> 01:08:51.529
of stuff. And that was kind of neat. So realistically,
1187
01:08:51.829 --> 01:08:56.630
you know, if there's a historical component to it, that
1188
01:08:56.670 --> 01:08:58.930
would be kind of neat to see. But I've really
1189
01:08:58.989 --> 01:09:01.060
seen everything I've watched. to see at this stage of
1190
01:09:01.100 --> 01:09:06.060
my life, whereas now actually being around home, seeing the house,
1191
01:09:06.619 --> 01:09:09.720
the dogs, the wife, and all that stuff, I'm pretty
1192
01:09:09.739 --> 01:09:10.500
much where I want to be.
1193
01:09:11.039 --> 01:09:13.439
Fair enough. One thing I would say, if you're interested
1194
01:09:13.460 --> 01:09:15.279
in Dracula stuff, is to come back to the UK
1195
01:09:15.609 --> 01:09:17.949
and visit Whitby, Whitby Abbey, because of course that's where
1196
01:09:18.470 --> 01:09:20.569
supposed to have landed to begin with. So that's a
1197
01:09:20.649 --> 01:09:22.930
well worth a visit. There's a Dracula museum there as
1198
01:09:22.970 --> 01:09:25.489
well now. And that's worth checking out too.
1199
01:09:26.609 --> 01:09:29.859
I'll have to tell my wife because my wife, she
1200
01:09:29.880 --> 01:09:33.260
was born here in Canada, but her parents and brother immigrated.
1201
01:09:33.300 --> 01:09:37.939
They came right from your neck of the woods. And
1202
01:09:37.979 --> 01:09:40.520
it's funny because her mom's a huge Harry Potter fan.
1203
01:09:42.279 --> 01:09:45.579
And so we always, we always get her stuff, Harry Potter,
1204
01:09:46.199 --> 01:09:49.239
anything to do because I'll, you know, we look for
1205
01:09:49.300 --> 01:09:53.420
stuff from the shows they watch on BritBox. We watch
1206
01:09:53.460 --> 01:09:55.699
a lot of the British comedy shows and that stuff too.
1207
01:09:56.659 --> 01:09:59.420
But there are some places I have wanted to go
1208
01:09:59.579 --> 01:10:04.970
if we go back there. But really, the families, most
1209
01:10:04.979 --> 01:10:08.630
of them are gone or they immigrated here. They're all here.
1210
01:10:08.649 --> 01:10:12.090
I know her father will occasionally go back home. I
1211
01:10:12.130 --> 01:10:16.069
think he goes to see his sister or whatever. But
1212
01:10:17.619 --> 01:10:20.149
I never did do the Jack the Ripper tour. That
1213
01:10:20.170 --> 01:10:22.130
would be something that would be really cool to do.
1214
01:10:22.229 --> 01:10:23.970
Well, if you ever get back over, I'll take you
1215
01:10:24.010 --> 01:10:27.390
on the tour. I actually took the TAPS team, Ghost Hunters,
1216
01:10:27.550 --> 01:10:29.229
many years ago. If you ever see the episode where
1217
01:10:29.260 --> 01:10:33.680
they go to the UK, they go to the Viaduct Tavern.
1218
01:10:34.260 --> 01:10:37.039
And they contacted me because I'd been to the Viaduct
1219
01:10:37.079 --> 01:10:40.260
Tavern and I'd been reporting our investigation. I'd been there
1220
01:10:40.279 --> 01:10:43.430
a few times. And I was, oh, nice. What information?
1221
01:10:43.710 --> 01:10:45.770
Come on, invite me on the show. And they didn't,
1222
01:10:46.350 --> 01:10:49.810
they found somebody else. I actually know who they took
1223
01:10:49.869 --> 01:10:51.810
on to the show instead, but they asked me, do
1224
01:10:51.829 --> 01:10:54.869
you know anyone knows about Jack the Ripper? And I said, well, me,
1225
01:10:54.890 --> 01:10:57.329
I used to live there. I've taken friends and family
1226
01:10:57.390 --> 01:10:59.539
on the tour of the sites. I can take you
1227
01:10:59.560 --> 01:11:02.739
around them. So you ever catch the episode of ghost
1228
01:11:02.779 --> 01:11:05.000
hunters in London doing the Jack Ripper tour. It's me.
1229
01:11:05.359 --> 01:11:08.100
I had hair then and my beard was darker, but
1230
01:11:08.220 --> 01:11:10.659
he's taken him on the tour. So it's one that's
1231
01:11:10.699 --> 01:11:14.130
fascinating to me. I, just very briefly my wife is
1232
01:11:14.210 --> 01:11:16.869
from the area we've met years later of course and
1233
01:11:17.010 --> 01:11:20.909
um where her parents were married is across the road
1234
01:11:20.949 --> 01:11:22.939
from one of the murder sites and she had no
1235
01:11:23.060 --> 01:11:27.300
idea that it's where well possibly lizabeth stride is possibly
1236
01:11:27.319 --> 01:11:29.460
a river victim there's a question whether she's not isn't
1237
01:11:29.479 --> 01:11:31.899
but duffield's yard which is where she was killed is
1238
01:11:31.960 --> 01:11:34.619
literally across the road from the oxford and george club
1239
01:11:34.920 --> 01:11:36.899
where her parents were married you didn't even know that
1240
01:11:37.020 --> 01:11:39.899
uh And she used to walk through Mitre Square on
1241
01:11:39.920 --> 01:11:42.039
the way to work. Again, had a vague idea because
1242
01:11:42.079 --> 01:11:45.159
obviously the tour groups, but until we met, she didn't
1243
01:11:45.189 --> 01:11:47.050
know anything about it really. So I've taken on those
1244
01:11:47.090 --> 01:11:47.810
tours as well.
1245
01:11:48.489 --> 01:11:53.149
Interesting because in the course, the very first course of
1246
01:11:53.229 --> 01:11:58.350
the criminal psych courses I was teaching was psychopathic mind.
1247
01:11:58.369 --> 01:12:02.010
So my students, I would split them into groups and
1248
01:12:02.189 --> 01:12:05.779
for 10 weeks they would have to prepare an oral
1249
01:12:05.819 --> 01:12:08.239
presentation in front of the class. Some of these went two,
1250
01:12:08.439 --> 01:12:11.239
three hours long. And one of the subjects they could
1251
01:12:11.260 --> 01:12:13.020
take was Jack the Ripper. And I would have them
1252
01:12:13.039 --> 01:12:16.689
profile on who their best subject was, you know, who
1253
01:12:16.699 --> 01:12:20.590
they would pick. Because I wrote a book called Jack
1254
01:12:20.630 --> 01:12:25.369
or Jill, where in the book I wrote, I did
1255
01:12:25.409 --> 01:12:30.069
a hypothetical that you could have literally, Jack could have
1256
01:12:30.109 --> 01:12:34.149
been a Jill and been a midwife. Because she would
1257
01:12:34.159 --> 01:12:36.229
have been able to get in and out of there
1258
01:12:36.369 --> 01:12:39.649
so easy. She could have blood on her. Nobody would
1259
01:12:39.689 --> 01:12:43.609
have questioned it. And I said, you know, because I
1260
01:12:43.649 --> 01:12:47.550
played with this. Obviously, it's fictional. But I wanted to demonstrate.
1261
01:12:49.130 --> 01:12:51.289
She could get away with this. And they go, okay, well,
1262
01:12:51.529 --> 01:12:53.050
what would be her motive? Why would she do it?
1263
01:12:53.609 --> 01:13:01.180
Because her husband was utilizing the services of prostitutes. He
1264
01:13:01.220 --> 01:13:04.670
wound up getting an STD. which he passed on to her,
1265
01:13:04.710 --> 01:13:09.369
which made her barren, which created this tremendous amount of rage.
1266
01:13:09.850 --> 01:13:16.420
Hence the overkill with the victims, the disemboweling and tearing
1267
01:13:16.460 --> 01:13:19.640
them apart, which, you know, I could spend hours talking
1268
01:13:19.699 --> 01:13:24.000
about profiling when it comes to violent acts because the
1269
01:13:24.039 --> 01:13:26.880
killer was really getting up close and personal and even
1270
01:13:26.939 --> 01:13:33.760
taking trophies. that is something usually that is excruciatingly egotistical
1271
01:13:34.199 --> 01:13:38.760
and that there has to be some sort of personalization
1272
01:13:38.819 --> 01:13:40.380
into it. And that's how I tied it into the
1273
01:13:40.399 --> 01:13:43.479
book or unless you go the other way, which we
1274
01:13:43.500 --> 01:13:47.659
always had fun with the whole Royal conspiracy theory. Yeah.
1275
01:13:48.359 --> 01:13:51.319
Yeah. So thank you, Mr. Stephen Knight for giving us
1276
01:13:51.350 --> 01:13:55.149
that horror show. It really began with him and well,
1277
01:13:55.390 --> 01:13:57.909
it began with a criminologist, of course, the magazine that had, um,
1278
01:13:59.029 --> 01:14:02.529
the first proposed a Royal connection. And, and Stephen Knight
1279
01:14:02.569 --> 01:14:05.229
read his book and drew it in the Freemasons, everybody else.
1280
01:14:05.289 --> 01:14:09.140
But again, it's one of those stories against a grander
1281
01:14:09.180 --> 01:14:12.159
size about beyond all belief, but you're basically dealing with
1282
01:14:12.220 --> 01:14:15.579
a psycho, essentially terrain serial killer who was probably, um,
1283
01:14:15.600 --> 01:14:16.819
Kuzminski most likely.
1284
01:14:17.819 --> 01:14:20.590
And it's funny because I mentioned that I, I've had
1285
01:14:20.600 --> 01:14:25.890
the good fortune, um, my mentor, John Douglas, um, He
1286
01:14:25.930 --> 01:14:28.949
was one of the pioneers in FBI profiling of serial
1287
01:14:28.989 --> 01:14:34.270
killers and sadistic rapists and killers. And Roy Hazel had
1288
01:14:34.289 --> 01:14:39.090
the great fortune of personally learning from him. And they
1289
01:14:39.109 --> 01:14:42.430
did a show, oh gosh, Andy, I want to say
1290
01:14:42.689 --> 01:14:46.869
late 80s. I think it was late 80s. Those two
1291
01:14:46.970 --> 01:14:51.250
FBI agents and a member of the Scotland Yard that
1292
01:14:51.270 --> 01:14:54.170
did profiling for the Yard, they appeared on a show
1293
01:14:54.189 --> 01:14:59.380
called And they profiled Jack the Ripper. And the two
1294
01:14:59.479 --> 01:15:01.319
FBI guys picked Aaron Kosminski.
1295
01:15:01.779 --> 01:15:02.439
I know the program.
1296
01:15:02.590 --> 01:15:03.119
Absolutely.
1297
01:15:04.170 --> 01:15:04.970
Yes, I've seen that.
1298
01:15:05.869 --> 01:15:06.029
Yeah.
1299
01:15:06.310 --> 01:15:09.350
I mean, he's the one that makes most sense. There
1300
01:15:09.409 --> 01:15:15.789
is kind of a question about Kosminski or somebody like him, because,
1301
01:15:15.829 --> 01:15:19.569
of course, the Kosminski that's been discovered was a harmless
1302
01:15:19.609 --> 01:15:21.069
lunatic in an asylum and died in 1919.
1303
01:15:21.060 --> 01:15:21.180
Yeah.
1304
01:15:22.430 --> 01:15:25.050
But the Swanson marginalia, of course, talks about somebody who
1305
01:15:25.109 --> 01:15:29.270
was violent and died soon afterwards. But the writer Martin
1306
01:15:29.430 --> 01:15:33.380
Fido found a guy that has been labelled as David Cohen,
1307
01:15:34.100 --> 01:15:36.000
and that's a name that's often given to Jewish people
1308
01:15:36.039 --> 01:15:40.159
who are not identifiable. He was arrested in December 1888
1309
01:15:40.159 --> 01:15:43.380
and died in prison in the silence soon afterwards. But
1310
01:15:43.619 --> 01:15:46.479
he may have been the actual Jack the Ripper. He
1311
01:15:46.500 --> 01:15:49.020
was arrested outside a brothel in December of 1888, raving
1312
01:15:49.079 --> 01:15:52.750
and violent. It may be that his mind finally did
1313
01:15:52.789 --> 01:15:54.930
completely collapse because he wasn't able to carry out the
1314
01:15:54.949 --> 01:15:57.609
kind of violent murders he'd been doing because the patrols
1315
01:15:57.649 --> 01:16:01.399
were everywhere limiting him. But the, my brain doesn't want
1316
01:16:01.420 --> 01:16:04.420
to work today, but Martin Fido is the author. It's Crime,
1317
01:16:04.439 --> 01:16:07.340
Detection and Death of Jack the Ripper. That's worth looking
1318
01:16:07.399 --> 01:16:08.640
for if you can find it. It's done as an
1319
01:16:08.720 --> 01:16:11.180
audio book as well. And Martin Fido was well known
1320
01:16:11.239 --> 01:16:14.079
for doing Murder After Midnight on LBC radio in the
1321
01:16:14.199 --> 01:16:16.159
UK for a number of years and looked into a
1322
01:16:16.199 --> 01:16:18.510
lot of cases in great detail. But that one particularly
1323
01:16:18.550 --> 01:16:21.460
fascinated him and he became one of the, main tour
1324
01:16:21.500 --> 01:16:23.689
guides taking people around the sights of Jack the Ripper
1325
01:16:23.699 --> 01:16:27.930
and his David Cohen fits better but again David Cohen
1326
01:16:27.949 --> 01:16:30.649
was a pseudonym given or a name like John Doe
1327
01:16:30.689 --> 01:16:33.970
is in the States to an unidentified person the name
1328
01:16:34.149 --> 01:16:38.789
Nathan Kaminski appears in records of arrests in the summer
1329
01:16:39.689 --> 01:16:44.180
who was attacking women but not as violently and not
1330
01:16:44.189 --> 01:16:47.180
the Ripper kind of murders but the style and description
1331
01:16:47.199 --> 01:16:50.369
that's given of this chap in the summer fits some
1332
01:16:50.390 --> 01:16:52.489
of the descriptions that were actually given of Jack the
1333
01:16:52.529 --> 01:16:56.670
Ripper in the autumn, those who'd been seen with the
1334
01:16:56.710 --> 01:16:58.479
victims around about the time of the death. And there's
1335
01:16:58.489 --> 01:17:01.260
a particularly strong description of a man leaving Mitre Square
1336
01:17:01.729 --> 01:17:03.720
not long before the body was found, the cathedral was
1337
01:17:03.760 --> 01:17:06.600
found in Mitre Square. And three people saw this man,
1338
01:17:06.619 --> 01:17:08.640
and they all gave a similar description, and it fits
1339
01:17:08.659 --> 01:17:13.539
this Nathan Kaminsky. So that might be the actual correct,
1340
01:17:14.439 --> 01:17:16.819
actual name of the guy, but certainly someone who was
1341
01:17:16.859 --> 01:17:19.859
a poor Polish immigrant, probably Jewish, fits the profile most
1342
01:17:19.899 --> 01:17:21.319
closely as you, as you know.
1343
01:17:21.500 --> 01:17:25.600
So. See living in Canada, the one guy that they had,
1344
01:17:25.899 --> 01:17:32.430
it's interesting. Cause I, I looked at him, um, was Dr. Francis. Yes.
1345
01:17:32.689 --> 01:17:33.550
Absolutely.
1346
01:17:33.569 --> 01:17:40.439
You know, because ironically from looking at that, when he left,
1347
01:17:40.449 --> 01:17:44.279
they actually had him in custody at one point. And
1348
01:17:44.739 --> 01:17:49.539
from what I gathered, he wasn't a true physician. He
1349
01:17:49.560 --> 01:17:54.750
was more of a snake oil, you know, salesman slash
1350
01:17:55.289 --> 01:18:00.229
whatever you want to call it. And when he left there,
1351
01:18:00.529 --> 01:18:03.229
the killing stopped. And you see, this is the problem,
1352
01:18:03.270 --> 01:18:07.460
I think, with that case is where you have, you know,
1353
01:18:07.659 --> 01:18:09.720
when Jeff and I were talking about it, you know,
1354
01:18:09.859 --> 01:18:14.880
he did the American Ripper, where the The cases stopped
1355
01:18:14.920 --> 01:18:18.619
when H.H. Holmes left England, but then they started up
1356
01:18:18.659 --> 01:18:22.119
at the Chicago Fair, like they started there. And this
1357
01:18:22.229 --> 01:18:29.329
is where the suspects come, where they're taking this continuity,
1358
01:18:29.470 --> 01:18:32.930
where a lot of these possibilities could be as, well, look,
1359
01:18:33.310 --> 01:18:36.619
it stopped when so-and-so left, but then they came to
1360
01:18:36.640 --> 01:18:40.800
their country and then there was crimes like that or assaults,
1361
01:18:41.420 --> 01:18:48.050
or they didn't assault as much. Whereas, you know, there
1362
01:18:48.109 --> 01:18:51.670
is the whole thing. It's almost like, what was it? Um,
1363
01:18:52.569 --> 01:18:55.210
the Sergeant Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club band, the cover that
1364
01:18:55.470 --> 01:18:56.930
definitely McCartney was killed.
1365
01:18:57.409 --> 01:18:57.829
Oh yes.
1366
01:18:57.930 --> 01:18:58.489
The old story.
1367
01:18:58.520 --> 01:18:59.380
Paul got, he's dead.
1368
01:18:59.409 --> 01:18:59.609
Yeah.
1369
01:19:00.359 --> 01:19:03.539
Yeah. And so then where you go, where you had
1370
01:19:03.760 --> 01:19:07.399
artists that on their, you know, they were painting pictures
1371
01:19:07.699 --> 01:19:10.539
of who the Ripper was. Like, this is really neat
1372
01:19:10.579 --> 01:19:15.279
where all these rabbit holes were created. Yes. Where I
1373
01:19:15.340 --> 01:19:19.640
remember John Douglas saying, basically, go with the most simple suspect.
1374
01:19:19.899 --> 01:19:23.189
Because that's probably your guy. And the funny part was,
1375
01:19:23.369 --> 01:19:27.810
if this was 2026, that person would be caught so fast.
1376
01:19:27.869 --> 01:19:30.529
Oh, absolutely. That's the other thing. There'd be no question
1377
01:19:30.550 --> 01:19:33.539
about motive because... one of the big red herrings you
1378
01:19:33.560 --> 01:19:34.899
get a lot of the earlier writers is they're trying
1379
01:19:34.920 --> 01:19:36.840
to find some kind of rational motive, be it royal
1380
01:19:36.880 --> 01:19:39.220
family stuff or anything else. But we know that kind
1381
01:19:39.260 --> 01:19:41.600
of psychopathic killer is internal mechanisms. It's nothing to do
1382
01:19:41.619 --> 01:19:43.739
with the real world at all. So the motive in
1383
01:19:43.760 --> 01:19:46.140
the traditional sense just doesn't exist. But yeah, a lot
1384
01:19:46.159 --> 01:19:48.560
of these writers have tried to assign a motive because
1385
01:19:48.590 --> 01:19:50.090
they think that's how it's supposed to work. But as
1386
01:19:50.130 --> 01:19:52.350
you rightly say, the killer was around now. We know
1387
01:19:52.409 --> 01:19:55.489
that was a sexual site with deviant psychopathic killings, that
1388
01:19:55.510 --> 01:19:57.689
they're not driven by anything other than the internal mechanisms
1389
01:19:57.770 --> 01:20:01.699
of the man's own past experiences. But I've talked with
1390
01:20:01.899 --> 01:20:05.119
Jeff before about the Ripper directly. We actually interviewed him
1391
01:20:05.140 --> 01:20:08.279
on one of our shows many years ago. And for me, H.H.
1392
01:20:08.350 --> 01:20:13.670
Holmes' methodology is quite different. Circus generally stick to the
1393
01:20:13.710 --> 01:20:16.409
same methodology. I don't think this guy would be able
1394
01:20:16.430 --> 01:20:18.729
to get across the Atlantic like that and then start
1395
01:20:18.770 --> 01:20:21.350
a different kind of... To the Ripper himself, the Act
1396
01:20:21.369 --> 01:20:24.470
Ripper either died or was incarcerated. There's only one of
1397
01:20:24.510 --> 01:20:28.210
those two. Because this kind of thing doesn't stop by itself,
1398
01:20:28.229 --> 01:20:29.590
it doesn't suddenly wake up one morning and think, oh,
1399
01:20:29.569 --> 01:20:31.060
I'm going to kill you now, I think I'll stop.
1400
01:20:31.560 --> 01:20:35.260
That just wouldn't happen with that kind of violent sexual killer.
1401
01:20:36.300 --> 01:20:40.159
Yeah, if you look at his, if you were to
1402
01:20:40.199 --> 01:20:45.899
take an intrinsic motivation in terms of what would lead
1403
01:20:45.939 --> 01:20:49.060
that guy if he's not, you know, as a psychologist,
1404
01:20:49.079 --> 01:20:52.329
I've got to I tread lightly when I hear the word,
1405
01:20:52.729 --> 01:20:56.569
the term deranged, it would be more of a hero
1406
01:20:56.609 --> 01:21:01.439
killer or moralistic anger. Because if you look at, if
1407
01:21:01.500 --> 01:21:06.560
he's moralistically driven to eliminate prostitutes and let's be realistic,
1408
01:21:06.600 --> 01:21:09.159
there would have been hundreds upon hundreds of them in
1409
01:21:09.199 --> 01:21:14.170
that time period. And if he was moralistically driven and
1410
01:21:14.189 --> 01:21:17.850
inclined to thinking I'm cleaning the place up and getting
1411
01:21:17.970 --> 01:21:22.770
rid of them, It ties no different into which is
1412
01:21:22.869 --> 01:21:26.920
similar in some ways, the motivation. If we take it
1413
01:21:26.960 --> 01:21:30.939
from that standpoint, Andy of Gary Leon Ridgeway and the
1414
01:21:30.979 --> 01:21:36.239
whole green river murders, because this went on for decades.
1415
01:21:36.260 --> 01:21:40.279
Like this was long. The killings he did were just
1416
01:21:40.800 --> 01:21:44.260
unfathomable to the point where he became so confident. He
1417
01:21:44.279 --> 01:21:46.340
did it with his kid. He brought his son was
1418
01:21:46.399 --> 01:21:50.100
in the pickup truck with him. Hmm. And we can
1419
01:21:50.109 --> 01:21:56.340
look at other ones that are similar, but they're different.
1420
01:21:56.560 --> 01:21:59.939
And the irony of it is they're so unique, each
1421
01:22:00.000 --> 01:22:01.819
and every one of them. They have their own fingerprint
1422
01:22:02.359 --> 01:22:06.949
where you don't see this copycat type of killer, so
1423
01:22:06.989 --> 01:22:09.170
to speak. And to this day, that is what is
1424
01:22:09.229 --> 01:22:11.329
so unique about the Ripper killings.
1425
01:22:12.949 --> 01:22:15.470
It's one of those things. You need to really have
1426
01:22:15.489 --> 01:22:17.750
a good grasp of the location. I mean, I used
1427
01:22:17.770 --> 01:22:19.720
to live there, but it was in Bethel Green. for
1428
01:22:19.739 --> 01:22:21.579
a number of years and walked the sites many times
1429
01:22:21.619 --> 01:22:22.819
long before I even met my wife. I mean, I
1430
01:22:22.819 --> 01:22:24.369
was going to say she lived in the area. We
1431
01:22:24.409 --> 01:22:26.970
met the university, but I had the interest and I
1432
01:22:27.069 --> 01:22:29.369
bought the sites. Obviously some of the sites have gone,
1433
01:22:29.689 --> 01:22:31.569
but some of the nearby streets, Hanbury street is a
1434
01:22:31.590 --> 01:22:34.310
good example. Hanbury street actually is where the murder was,
1435
01:22:34.869 --> 01:22:36.880
was demolished decades ago. And there was actually a brewery
1436
01:22:36.899 --> 01:22:38.800
built on the site. Even that's closed down now, but
1437
01:22:38.880 --> 01:22:42.479
two streets over the buildings are still there. The second,
1438
01:22:42.500 --> 01:22:44.680
same kind of buildings. So you can get a real
1439
01:22:44.760 --> 01:22:46.960
sense of the claustrophobia of the area that it was
1440
01:22:47.399 --> 01:22:50.520
incredibly overrun with people living there it was crowded it
1441
01:22:50.560 --> 01:22:54.119
was dirty it was dark all the changes that happened
1442
01:22:54.260 --> 01:22:56.680
after rip including street lighting so a simple street light
1443
01:22:56.699 --> 01:22:59.050
there wasn't any pretty much in the side streets it
1444
01:22:59.069 --> 01:23:01.229
was all pitch black at night so a killer like
1445
01:23:01.250 --> 01:23:03.569
that could easily move right even with blood all over
1446
01:23:03.609 --> 01:23:06.069
them could easily move around the streets without being detected
1447
01:23:06.109 --> 01:23:09.680
because it was pitch black literally so those kind of
1448
01:23:09.840 --> 01:23:12.859
areas make it very easy for a person like that
1449
01:23:12.880 --> 01:23:16.970
to be operating and You know, murder was, unfortunately, fairly
1450
01:23:17.090 --> 01:23:20.409
common because it was lawless. I mean, there was a
1451
01:23:20.430 --> 01:23:22.750
police force and police presence, but it was small and
1452
01:23:22.829 --> 01:23:24.229
weak and no one wanted to do the job because
1453
01:23:24.270 --> 01:23:27.210
it was dangerous. I mean, Dorset Street, where the last
1454
01:23:27.329 --> 01:23:30.489
active Mary Jane Kelly lived, was one of the worst
1455
01:23:30.960 --> 01:23:34.920
streets in London for crime. It was a war zone, practically,
1456
01:23:34.939 --> 01:23:37.399
and it was awful there. So, you know, people can
1457
01:23:37.439 --> 01:23:39.260
visit the sites today and think, well, how could this
1458
01:23:39.279 --> 01:23:41.500
sort of thing happen? But in 1888, it was a
1459
01:23:41.680 --> 01:23:45.279
very different place. So it was fairly easy for someone
1460
01:23:45.319 --> 01:23:48.220
like that to move around. And again, these murders happen
1461
01:23:48.399 --> 01:23:51.359
very quickly after each other. I mean, all five, all four,
1462
01:23:51.380 --> 01:23:54.979
because I have doubts about Mary Elizabeth Stry's murder. I mean,
1463
01:23:55.000 --> 01:23:57.000
we haven't got time to go in today, but I
1464
01:23:57.060 --> 01:23:59.119
have suspicions that may not have been a river murder
1465
01:23:59.159 --> 01:24:03.220
at all. But you've certainly got four violent killings that
1466
01:24:03.460 --> 01:24:06.539
are getting worse and worse as you go along until
1467
01:24:06.560 --> 01:24:08.380
you get to Mary Jane Kelly, who he had all
1468
01:24:08.420 --> 01:24:10.359
the time in the world to do whatever he wanted to.
1469
01:24:10.840 --> 01:24:12.979
And we've seen the horror in the photographs produced today.
1470
01:24:13.489 --> 01:24:16.729
of what he did, but that kind of kill again,
1471
01:24:16.750 --> 01:24:19.329
say today, wouldn't last five minutes, be caught fairly quickly
1472
01:24:19.369 --> 01:24:21.630
with DNA evidence, et cetera. But in those days, they
1473
01:24:21.649 --> 01:24:24.489
had nothing. They had to literally catch the guy in
1474
01:24:24.550 --> 01:24:26.949
the act or soon after to be able to really say,
1475
01:24:27.270 --> 01:24:30.649
we're arresting you. But I've always found that list of
1476
01:24:30.729 --> 01:24:34.029
the three main suspects that the police had, which are
1477
01:24:34.069 --> 01:24:36.850
more credible than some writers want to believe. And certainly
1478
01:24:36.869 --> 01:24:40.250
what Swanson wrote in his margin, his own personal copy
1479
01:24:40.310 --> 01:24:45.729
of McNaughton's memoirs, I mean, it's hard to argue against
1480
01:24:45.770 --> 01:24:47.569
that because it wasn't even written for publication. It was
1481
01:24:47.600 --> 01:24:49.579
his own notes. And he was one of the leading
1482
01:24:49.619 --> 01:24:52.800
investigators at the time. So often writers who try to
1483
01:24:52.859 --> 01:24:56.020
dismiss the three main suspects or the marginalia are like, well,
1484
01:24:56.039 --> 01:24:58.199
you're discrediting yourself because you've not really looked at the things.
1485
01:24:58.239 --> 01:25:00.779
You can't just ignore that evidence. It's too strong.
1486
01:25:02.460 --> 01:25:06.560
The interesting thing with that case is where you don't
1487
01:25:07.829 --> 01:25:15.039
have any information, basically. So looking at criminal profiling and
1488
01:25:15.079 --> 01:25:19.920
looking especially at sexual predators. And we can call these
1489
01:25:20.000 --> 01:25:26.819
almost sexual predation cases because of the sexual nature of
1490
01:25:26.970 --> 01:25:29.430
what they, of what was done to these women and
1491
01:25:29.449 --> 01:25:31.569
the fact of the fact that they were sex worker.
1492
01:25:33.390 --> 01:25:36.250
If you were to look at the serial killers today,
1493
01:25:36.449 --> 01:25:44.250
especially sexual sadists, They progress. They graduate. So they don't
1494
01:25:44.329 --> 01:25:47.050
just jump into the deep end and kill right from
1495
01:25:47.090 --> 01:25:50.350
the get-go. This means that this guy here, if it's
1496
01:25:50.409 --> 01:25:55.840
Kaminsky or we're looking at another UNISUB, it would be
1497
01:25:56.619 --> 01:25:59.340
most likely there would have been a history leading up
1498
01:25:59.520 --> 01:26:03.479
of women being assaulted. And we never get any of that,
1499
01:26:03.520 --> 01:26:06.600
which I find interesting. And the reason we're not going
1500
01:26:06.619 --> 01:26:09.850
to get any of that, Andy, is because these prostitutes
1501
01:26:09.859 --> 01:26:13.930
would have been assaulted and accosted all the time exactly
1502
01:26:13.970 --> 01:26:16.890
and it would have been just a regular thing that
1503
01:26:17.029 --> 01:26:22.689
ironically that guy there probably had an mo of i
1504
01:26:22.729 --> 01:26:25.090
don't know what you want to call it sexual assaults
1505
01:26:25.430 --> 01:26:30.100
prior to the actual murders and there's nothing leading up
1506
01:26:30.140 --> 01:26:33.140
to that because the answer would be as well pete
1507
01:26:33.239 --> 01:26:34.319
it happened all the time back.
1508
01:26:34.180 --> 01:26:37.180
Then yeah that's exactly martin fardo found that well a
1509
01:26:37.300 --> 01:26:40.300
number of cases reported to the police that didn't fit
1510
01:26:40.319 --> 01:26:42.079
the profile but with nothing done about them because it
1511
01:26:42.119 --> 01:26:44.800
was just a common thing. Prostitutes being assaulted by a
1512
01:26:44.819 --> 01:26:48.100
client after rather than paying was pretty common, including to
1513
01:26:48.359 --> 01:26:52.420
the point of them dying from the violence. So it was, again,
1514
01:26:53.579 --> 01:26:55.560
it was a largely lawless area and it was difficult
1515
01:26:55.579 --> 01:26:57.119
to police. You had to literally catch them in the
1516
01:26:57.159 --> 01:26:59.319
act or that was it. You couldn't prove any of it. So,
1517
01:26:59.359 --> 01:27:01.840
I mean, there were a number of assaults that occurred
1518
01:27:02.000 --> 01:27:04.220
prior to the Ripper that have been identified as potential
1519
01:27:04.260 --> 01:27:07.069
Ripper cases but probably not because it They were violent,
1520
01:27:07.090 --> 01:27:08.449
but not in quite the same way. But there were
1521
01:27:08.520 --> 01:27:11.260
others that were found as assault, as I say. Martin
1522
01:27:11.279 --> 01:27:14.380
Feider found one in the summer that was like a proto-ripper.
1523
01:27:14.420 --> 01:27:16.420
He was grabbed by the throat and did seem to
1524
01:27:16.460 --> 01:27:19.579
try and attack her, but was frightened off, apparently. So
1525
01:27:19.619 --> 01:27:21.699
you can see the beginnings of what he was doing.
1526
01:27:21.739 --> 01:27:26.130
But then something changed, and that step was taken. He
1527
01:27:26.149 --> 01:27:27.069
went deeper into it.
1528
01:27:27.649 --> 01:27:30.899
Yeah, and that's why I played with the idea of it.
1529
01:27:31.949 --> 01:27:34.729
You know, it could happen that it could have been
1530
01:27:34.770 --> 01:27:39.670
a female. Hmm. based on why it could happen, not
1531
01:27:39.710 --> 01:27:41.949
that I believe it was a female, because it's a
1532
01:27:41.970 --> 01:27:44.829
fictional story, but I wanted to paint to my students
1533
01:27:44.909 --> 01:27:48.189
and readers of my books that this is why it
1534
01:27:48.289 --> 01:27:54.220
could be a female, that this case, because to this day,
1535
01:27:54.979 --> 01:27:58.720
it's an interesting one because there's one, there's two that
1536
01:27:58.760 --> 01:28:03.720
are very similar to this, modern day ones. Zodiac and
1537
01:28:05.829 --> 01:28:10.779
And the JonBenet Ramsey case, because in neither one of
1538
01:28:10.819 --> 01:28:13.359
those cases, do you have an exact suspect?
1539
01:28:13.800 --> 01:28:13.960
Yeah.
1540
01:28:14.119 --> 01:28:18.779
You've always had theories and my students have brought this
1541
01:28:18.899 --> 01:28:22.750
up and it's something that I've taught them that isn't
1542
01:28:22.789 --> 01:28:26.970
the fact that you continually have theories on suspects because
1543
01:28:27.210 --> 01:28:30.850
they know who the actual real perpetrator was and they
1544
01:28:30.890 --> 01:28:31.909
don't want to release that.
1545
01:28:32.350 --> 01:28:32.609
Hmm.
1546
01:28:33.350 --> 01:28:38.420
So, because it could do more harm to a larger
1547
01:28:38.479 --> 01:28:42.489
number of people or a community or something that there's
1548
01:28:42.510 --> 01:28:44.909
a cover-up. And I don't want to sound like a
1549
01:28:44.949 --> 01:28:50.050
conspiracy theorist here, but if you're working at this from
1550
01:28:50.090 --> 01:28:54.600
a profile perspective, you always have to look at every
1551
01:28:54.659 --> 01:29:06.159
conceivable option where, you know, why... is why our cases
1552
01:29:06.229 --> 01:29:09.949
just go cold all of a sudden. Or even more so,
1553
01:29:11.010 --> 01:29:12.829
and this is what I think I know because I've
1554
01:29:12.850 --> 01:29:14.550
worked with cops for a long time, they're not happy
1555
01:29:14.569 --> 01:29:18.250
with it, is where you get these citizen sleuths that
1556
01:29:18.289 --> 01:29:20.989
go out and they start working cold cases. And the
1557
01:29:21.029 --> 01:29:23.729
worst thing that a cop can ever have happen to them, Andy,
1558
01:29:24.109 --> 01:29:26.149
is that one of these people cracks the case.
1559
01:29:27.920 --> 01:29:30.989
Yeah, I can imagine that's something. Not comfortable.
1560
01:29:31.630 --> 01:29:34.029
But I remember the last thing I did see was Kosminski.
1561
01:29:35.489 --> 01:29:36.810
Was the DNA sample?
1562
01:29:37.729 --> 01:29:41.170
Oh, yes, yes. Issues, questions about that. Of course, the
1563
01:29:41.210 --> 01:29:44.140
wrong kind of testing was done. I know, again, to
1564
01:29:44.180 --> 01:29:47.220
Russell Phillips about the Russell Edwards. My brain doesn't want
1565
01:29:47.260 --> 01:29:49.159
to work today. His name's just been on my head. Yeah,
1566
01:29:49.180 --> 01:29:50.500
I mean, I've chatted with him before. We had an
1567
01:29:50.520 --> 01:29:52.819
interesting discussion about that. I agree he's found the right
1568
01:29:52.859 --> 01:29:54.840
suspect for the wrong reasons because I don't think that
1569
01:29:55.199 --> 01:29:57.800
DNA test works. The open doesn't really particularly work, but
1570
01:29:58.409 --> 01:30:00.930
It is one of those fascinating cases. All the different
1571
01:30:01.010 --> 01:30:03.229
theories that come about. And I do think there is
1572
01:30:03.250 --> 01:30:07.810
a certain vested interest in not identifying the Ripper because
1573
01:30:07.829 --> 01:30:09.350
we want to keep the industry going. Again, it comes
1574
01:30:09.369 --> 01:30:11.279
down to money. You know, the tour guys and the books,
1575
01:30:11.359 --> 01:30:14.199
the films, the media, they'd all disappear if you could
1576
01:30:14.220 --> 01:30:15.640
prove it. I don't think you can. I don't think
1577
01:30:15.659 --> 01:30:17.579
we're ever going to prove it definitively, but I think
1578
01:30:17.619 --> 01:30:20.140
we're getting as close as you can get to with
1579
01:30:20.180 --> 01:30:23.699
the Kosminski identification, whether it may be another Polish immigrant,
1580
01:30:23.720 --> 01:30:26.729
but the profile of the person I think fits. They
1581
01:30:26.770 --> 01:30:29.550
are most likely to be the Ripper. Someone who was,
1582
01:30:30.050 --> 01:30:32.149
who knew the area intimately, lived in the area, could
1583
01:30:32.210 --> 01:30:35.770
move around unnoticed, but was showing signs of sexual deviance
1584
01:30:35.829 --> 01:30:37.750
later on. And then it turned to real violence. And
1585
01:30:37.770 --> 01:30:41.930
then for whatever reason, either incarcerated or died, stopped. That's
1586
01:30:41.989 --> 01:30:43.810
the only way that kind of killer can stop.
1587
01:30:44.550 --> 01:30:48.189
Yeah. I believe beyond a shadow of a doubt, the
1588
01:30:48.229 --> 01:30:52.020
cops had him in custody at one point or did
1589
01:30:52.060 --> 01:30:54.779
have him in custody for good. I believe that, beyond
1590
01:30:54.819 --> 01:30:56.619
a shadow of a doubt, that they had come in
1591
01:30:56.659 --> 01:31:00.359
contact with him. And I do believe that at least
1592
01:31:00.500 --> 01:31:03.619
one cop, or even a member of Scotland Yard, did
1593
01:31:03.659 --> 01:31:04.899
know exactly who it was.
1594
01:31:05.369 --> 01:31:07.890
Yeah, I mean, if I say what Swanson suggested, they
1595
01:31:07.949 --> 01:31:10.989
couldn't prove he was the Ripper, but they knew as
1596
01:31:11.109 --> 01:31:13.090
well as they could, and locked him into an asylum
1597
01:31:13.489 --> 01:31:15.649
to stop him from killing more people. They couldn't take
1598
01:31:15.689 --> 01:31:17.609
it to court, they couldn't prove it, but they were
1599
01:31:17.649 --> 01:31:20.189
convinced themselves, again, that's what Swanson basically says, and I
1600
01:31:20.229 --> 01:31:23.750
think he's absolutely right. Because he's known for him.
1601
01:31:24.529 --> 01:31:27.170
The bottom line is it's like with any case, and
1602
01:31:27.229 --> 01:31:31.109
this is the, the parallel I use with my students.
1603
01:31:32.470 --> 01:31:35.039
If you have a killer at large and you've got
1604
01:31:35.279 --> 01:31:38.140
police full blown police on, because at one point you
1605
01:31:38.159 --> 01:31:41.380
had the Scotland yard investigating that case, then all of
1606
01:31:41.420 --> 01:31:44.800
a sudden the dogs are all called off. Why?
1607
01:31:44.819 --> 01:31:44.899
Yeah.
1608
01:31:45.920 --> 01:31:48.319
Because the parallel is to the OJ Simpson case.
1609
01:31:50.109 --> 01:31:50.310
Once.
1610
01:31:51.229 --> 01:31:54.579
And then OJ was cleared and free or whatever. Why
1611
01:31:54.619 --> 01:31:56.590
did they stop looking for anybody else, Andy?
1612
01:31:57.020 --> 01:31:57.510
Exactly.
1613
01:31:57.739 --> 01:31:58.229
Exactly.
1614
01:31:59.630 --> 01:32:01.649
And that's what leads me to believe, yeah, they knew
1615
01:32:01.689 --> 01:32:05.229
who the Ripper was. And there's a variety of reasons.
1616
01:32:06.109 --> 01:32:07.989
And it's kind of funny because we always tie this
1617
01:32:08.069 --> 01:32:12.729
back where we talk about prostitution in the courses. It'll always,
1618
01:32:12.750 --> 01:32:15.850
they'll always go like, well, sir, Pete, why, you know,
1619
01:32:16.029 --> 01:32:19.609
if it's bad, so bad, why don't they just make
1620
01:32:19.689 --> 01:32:25.010
it illegal altogether? Or why don't they legalize it? That's better.
1621
01:32:25.029 --> 01:32:27.550
The better argument. Why don't they legalize it, sir? Because
1622
01:32:27.590 --> 01:32:31.970
I said, cash is King. If you legalize prostitution, judges
1623
01:32:32.010 --> 01:32:33.409
are going to be out of money. Police are going
1624
01:32:33.430 --> 01:32:35.670
to be out of money. Courts are going to be
1625
01:32:35.689 --> 01:32:37.510
out of money. Lawyers are going to lose their money.
1626
01:32:38.430 --> 01:32:41.630
All that are going to be out of money. The
1627
01:32:41.689 --> 01:32:43.729
CD hotels are going to be out of money because
1628
01:32:44.020 --> 01:32:46.439
you have basically a red light district. And then you
1629
01:32:46.479 --> 01:32:48.720
basically have a controlled environment.
1630
01:32:49.699 --> 01:32:51.960
And, Who takes it over? The government.
1631
01:32:52.380 --> 01:32:56.420
Yeah, yeah, pretty true. Unfortunately, it tends to be all
1632
01:32:56.460 --> 01:32:57.960
about money at the end of the day, a lot
1633
01:32:57.979 --> 01:33:03.359
of these things. Well, it's been very interesting talking to you, certainly.
1634
01:33:04.359 --> 01:33:05.399
If you want to get a hold of you, Peter,
1635
01:33:05.420 --> 01:33:06.720
what's the best way to get in contact?
1636
01:33:07.500 --> 01:33:09.039
Oh, the best way you can find me is on
1637
01:33:09.079 --> 01:33:17.539
Facebook or my website, PeterAndrewSacco, S-A-C-C-O dot com. Excellent.
1638
01:33:18.039 --> 01:33:20.359
Well, it's been an interesting evening talking to you. It
1639
01:33:20.380 --> 01:33:22.199
sounds like your storms have died away a bit in
1640
01:33:22.220 --> 01:33:23.979
the background there. We definitely had a bit of thunder
1641
01:33:24.020 --> 01:33:25.939
and lightning at one point. And you kept sort of
1642
01:33:26.000 --> 01:33:27.300
phasing in and out. I was beginning to worry that
1643
01:33:27.319 --> 01:33:29.439
we were going to lose your connection completely. But it's
1644
01:33:29.460 --> 01:33:32.010
held out, which is absolutely excellent. But it's been really
1645
01:33:32.050 --> 01:33:34.630
great talking to you. I think we can get back
1646
01:33:34.670 --> 01:33:37.010
into this again another time, I think. You got it.
1647
01:33:37.029 --> 01:33:37.750
Anytime, Eddie.
1648
01:33:38.689 --> 01:33:39.989
But I'm going to wrap it up for this evening.
1649
01:33:40.189 --> 01:33:42.409
I say definitely we'll hook up again another time and
1650
01:33:42.449 --> 01:33:45.989
have another chat about your fascinating work with the TV
1651
01:33:46.020 --> 01:33:47.880
stuff as well. We didn't get into much as I
1652
01:33:47.899 --> 01:33:49.840
wanted us to, but we will definitely get back into that.
1653
01:33:49.880 --> 01:33:52.300
So I'll speak to you again soon. But for now,
1654
01:33:52.380 --> 01:33:54.420
it's good night from me and good night from my guests.
1655
01:33:55.420 --> 01:33:55.579
Cheers.
1656
01:33:55.600 --> 01:33:56.479
Excellent.