Cyber Security Expert Warns Quantum Computing Could DESTROY Bitcoin (Orange Pill Order Episode: 13)

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Thank you.
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Thank you.
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Thank you.
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Thank you.
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if quantum computing actually could work uh the the world as we know it would make no sense
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yo guys welcome back to the orange pill order i'm thomas and today's guest is the highest level
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in cyber security most bitcoiners come at this from the money side or the tech side but
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our guest today comes at it from a completely different angle and he spent over a decade
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protecting the systems that keep the lights on power grids pipelines refineries the stuff that
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if it goes down i mean everyone knows about it he's also an author of the book defending bitcoin
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industrial grade cyber security for the monetary grid he's the co-founder of bitcoin infinity media
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with canoe of course and he co-founded btc help the first bitcoin conference in the nordics and
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He does all of this from Helsinki, Finland, which he moved to partly because of the metal scene out there.
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So please welcome Luke De Wolf.
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Hi, Thomas. Thanks for having me.
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A great introduction as well.
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The metal tidbit definitely was a part of my moving over to Finland.
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But yeah, thanks. Thanks for having me.
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Great to be here. It was great meeting you in a couple of conferences recently.
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So excited to be having this conversation.
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Yeah, of course. Thank you very much.
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thank you very much for coming on but um before we get into all the bitcoin and cyber security and
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all the deep stuff i have to start with the metal because obviously you know it's one of my favorite
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things and obviously you move from canada to finland and one of the reasons was the metal scene
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and i mean i kind of need the whole story on that i mean how does metal end up being one of the
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reasons you pick up your entire life and move like halfway across the world perfect i love it well
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Well, okay, so yeah, I've been a metalhead for, well, 20 plus years at this point, and
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kind of something drew me to that, that I'm sure everyone who's into the genre can relate
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to some element of finding some part of your identity, something like this.
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But I always really liked a lot of the bands from the Nordics specifically, subgenres.
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I mean, Finland's pretty famous for some of its, say, more eclectic metal, but there's more mainstream stuff, Children of Budum, things like this.
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My wife and I coincidentally met after separate Children of Budum concerts, different cities, but we lived in the same city.
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that's a slightly longer story but we we met after that uh and and we we were happy to bond
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over that we we had um you know seen the same band just recently and um finland's also got some
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interesting things that uh bands that play with the accordion and the the violin like like korpiklani
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i don't think you can see my shirt but that's what i ended up wearing tonight um so so i've
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really been into that sort of music and and other stuff from around the nordics like like the black
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metal in in in Norway that's that's some pretty uh some pretty fun stuff uh my wife and I we
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visited Norway before we visited Finland and went to see all of the uh sort of the uh biggest spots
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in in Norwegian black metal history like uh one of the churches that got burned down in Bergen
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Norway and uh uh say the the uh what was it it was like a like a record store in in Oslo that
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that a lot of the Norwegian medal scene kind of came up in.
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So that was all pretty much a prelude to that.
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We had wanted to spend some time in Finland.
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The Nordics just live somewhere else.
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But COVID hit and we'd planned a trip out to the region,
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but had to cancel that.
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And then I got the opportunity to transfer with my job.
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And, well, the short of it is that we just decided to go on an adventure,
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my wife and I.
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And so it's not like the metal music was the only thing, but it was a big help.
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And, of course, went to tons of concerts, festivals, this sort of thing the first few years being here.
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Again, it was COVID, so it wasn't as many as it could have been.
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And coincidentally enough, the singer of Children of Budum died just before we came.
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So that was like big news in the community.
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We went to visit a bar that his old bandmates set up in Espo.
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the city next to Helsinki where where that band is from uh and and so that they had some memorabilia
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from him and all this and so um yeah just just lots of things coming together from from um my
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life my personal life that that led to uh Finland being an attractive place to go spend some time
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and now it looks to be pretty permanent uh no plans to to leave uh just just moved into a
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a new place here so I yeah thinking that that's pretty much a good good enough start on the metal
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music side of things yeah definitely I mean I mean it's awesome obviously the music as well but
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of course all of Scandinavia is beautiful it's incredible scenery and everything around you
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all the nature oh yeah yeah I mean I love it I mean right now I pretty much moved out
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outside of Helsinki a little bit and pretty much live in nature now and it's really nice out here
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and I mean I come from a part of Canada that where the winters are really cold and lots of snow it
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gets some some relief due to to being near the mountains they get some some warm air sometimes
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but yeah the winters are less harsh and the the nature is fantastic so it's really a nice place
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to live. The darkness is a little bit, it takes a little bit of getting used to. I think the UK
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actually isn't that, say, it's not so far south as other parts of Europe, for example, and most of
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Canada and the US is further south than that. But yeah, it does take some getting used to that,
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like the shortest days of the year are four hours. And right now, I mean, I don't know,
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sundown is still another hour and a half for me. It's just after 9pm right now. So it's,
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yeah long days but it's nice i like the long days yeah of course i mean we i mean we do get uh the
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the the difference between summer and winter is definitely massive in the uk but four hours there
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yeah i mean that's uh i think that's a different sort of level than we're on but back on to the
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metal what are we specifically talking about genre wise so what do you like what are the bands you
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listen to give me the bands and be honest like is there any kind of black metal or stuff that the
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average person wouldn't listen to like Slipknot or any of those ones well okay I mean I mean if
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we're talking about black metal specifically I mean I don't think the average person is listening
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to any of that but I mean I'm a fan of the classics Burzum is still I think my uh my top
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favorite from from black metal and then just on the just on the quality of the the music the the
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guy is a is a bit crazy but but uh I I still I still have that on on playlists um Gore older
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Gorgoroth is fun.
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I like a band called Take, T-A-A-K-E.
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I like that stuff.
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But from maybe kind of a little bit less dark fare from Finland, for example,
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there's Fintroll, Korpiklani, Ensi Ferrum, folk metal, these kind of things.
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Because another strand that you could maybe pick up on if you read, say, the introduction to my book or anything like this is I did a podcast on Norse mythology, Finnish mythology for a while there.
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By the end of it, we had 53 episodes, which was pretty good.
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But nowadays at 200 plus with Bitcoin Infinity Show, that's looking like a smaller number.
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But at the time, it was a lot of fun, and my partner and I, we put a lot of work into it.
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And yeah, I've always had a little bit of a thing for connecting to the roots of these sorts of things.
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I was really fascinated with mythology and just understanding that stuff.
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And music that goes along with that played a big role.
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So a lot of these groups I'm talking about take a lot of inspiration from Finnish, Norse, mythology, whatever.
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so yeah the main genres that I'm into are kind of this folk metal
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black metal type stuff but I've also I mean I listen to all kinds of music
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these days almost anything that's playing in
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Finland I'll listen to because it just helps to
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keep the language in my head because Finnish is a bit of a different one
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but yeah so I listen to all kinds of things
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and I listen to kids music a lot these days my
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My two-year-old son likes a lot of different things.
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But we still leave some of the metal music in the playlists,
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and he can actually growl pretty well.
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We never taught him to do that, but he'll just start.
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Actually, there's a song by, and I mean, this is not metal at all,
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but in Eurovision, the Swedish entry for, I think it was last year,
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was actually a band from Finland because half of the,
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Well, about 10% of the country speaks Swedish.
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It's a little less than that even.
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But it's the second official language.
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And so the entry from Sweden was actually from Finland,
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but it was about going to sauna, which is a really big thing here, you might know.
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So the chorus goes one, two, three, sauna.
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And so we would say one, two, three, and he would growl, sauna.
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It's just the cutest thing.
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oh yeah big music differences yeah yeah yeah definitely i mean well you'll have to get him
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into all the metal stuff and then he'll he'll start singing at rockamato soon i'm sure oh yeah
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give him another 14 15 years something yeah yeah perfect i mean the thing that i think about with
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all the metal stuff i mean metal kind of has the ethos around it and it's kind of intensity and
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doing things your own way and not really caring about what other people think or mainstream think
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and kind of building real communities do you think there's i mean there's something metalhead about
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all of the bitcoiners really because i mean it feels like a lot of them kind of have that sort
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of mindset yeah totally i've i've enjoyed being in metal subcultures over the years it's always
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interesting to get into groups of people who are who are into that and yeah it's it's a lot more
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common up here in finland i think that people will be wearing band shirts just casually kind of thing
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and uh gigs are a little more well attended but back in canada it was definitely a little more of a
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subculture thing but you get to know people and uh uh yeah building all agreeing that that kind of
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the mainstream stuff is a little bit lame
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and you're in on something special.
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I enjoy that.
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I've definitely used kind of metal music as a way of,
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well, maybe rebellion is the right word to a certain extent,
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but maybe more so as just an outlet.
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It's something that doesn't filter its emotions,
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something like this,
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and you can find all sorts of things in the space.
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And, yeah, similarities to Bitcoin.
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Like, yeah, a Bitcoin conference isn't exactly the same thing as a metal concert.
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Sorry, but, yeah, you do know that you share something in common with everyone you meet there.
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So that kind of takes away some of the social, say, it's an instant icebreaker sort of thing.
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You can always talk to someone at a metal show, same as you can talk to someone at a Bitcoin conference.
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So, yeah, I can see that there's parallels there.
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Yeah, absolutely. Completely agree.
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So going back to even before all the metal and everything, before you found Bitcoin, before the book, you grew up in Calgary and studied computer science.
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But also you had an internship and oil and gas pipeline and you realized that you'd rather secure physical systems than write code.
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What was that moment? Why did that click?
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Sure. So, yeah, this goes back to, and this is from the introduction in defending Bitcoin for sure.
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So where I started my career, the oil and gas sector in Canada is a bit of a unique thing.
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Canada, well, I shouldn't be too hyperbolic about this, but Canada really economically depends on the oil and gas sector and specifically the region where I'm from, Alberta.
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I really don't identify with being Canadian in sort of a patriotic way through years and years and years of the rest of the country undervaluing and underappreciating the place where I'm from and the industry that I worked in, that everyone I knew worked in.
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And we all would take great pride in creating something that is necessary for human flourishing.
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There's no such thing as a low-energy, high-prosperity society, right?
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You need energy to have a society that, well, what we would consider in the Western world to be normal.
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You know, the lights work.
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We have water.
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We have shelter.
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These sorts of things.
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It all requires energy at some point.
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So the beginning of my career was at a really tough time for the oil and gas industry.
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This was back in the Obama years, actually.
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And Barack Obama cancelled a pipeline from the company that I worked for, TransCanada Pipelines.
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And he cancelled a proposed pipeline through the United States.
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There was a lot of controversy with that.
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But the thing was everyone in my city, in Calgary, knew that a company could just give everyone a layoff notice and fire them at any moment.
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Because even if you had a good contract or whatever it was, the economic conditions just made it so that they could do that.
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So there was almost no such thing as job security.
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Everything was really, really tough.
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But the thing I lucked out in was that I was working for a good company that produced something, well, provided a service.
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They built and maintained and operated pipelines, which is by far the safest way to transport oil and gas over land is through a pipeline.
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Trains, if they derail, there can be all sorts of issues.
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I mean, there have been fatalities, things like this.
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It's much slower, much more expensive.
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So I was happy to be working for a company that was doing something real.
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And yeah, computer science was just my best guess at finding something to study
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that might actually result in a job, a career.
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I'd been interested in all sorts of things, languages, history, this and that.
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But none of those things had any career path outside of academia, basically.
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and I mean as an aside I definitely wouldn't recommend virtually anyone these days especially
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anyone younger than me to be going into academia seriously these days unless you don't have to
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worry about money which most of us do but yeah so what it was for me was that I enjoyed working
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on something that was real it wasn't just sort of the software running some kind of IT system
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or something like this, I was out there making connections,
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making sure that things were running.
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I administered these control systems, and that's what these are called,
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the systems that control the physical things that interact with, say, pipelines,
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electrical grids, factories, this sort of thing.
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And the control systems that operate them are what I worked with and administered.
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the role I had was
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again kind of lucky
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from my perspective that they gave a lot
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of responsibility to their
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interns, myself
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included, and I was basically able to do
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everything that
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senior people would do
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just with supervision of course
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but they were very good at training me up
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I didn't end up working
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with them long term for a couple
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of reasons but
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I was always on good terms
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I still consider many of the people from those days to be good friends.
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And it took a little while before I moved into the cybersecurity side of things.
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But that's kind of a natural step, though, going from working directly on some kind of a system
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to learning about the security while on the job a little bit
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and then eventually transitioning into being full-time on the security side of things.
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So to answer your question a little more directly, though,
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It was just that I enjoyed working with something real.
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And I didn't know that something like that existed, that it was an option.
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And as soon as I found it and realized that was a career path I could take, I jumped on it.
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So that's it.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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I mean, going back to what you were saying about the cybersecurity, for people my age who think cybersecurity just kind of means antivirus software and strong passwords, what does your actual job look like?
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Like, what are you protecting and who are you protecting it from?
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Sure.
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So my career was a little more interesting a few years ago when I was still in consulting.
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You can kind of split those things up into...
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I work now for a company that makes stuff and I'm helping to protect their assets and all this.
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But I used to work for a consulting company where I would just go between different companies
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and get to do cool stuff for a little while,
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something that they're paying us to do externally.
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And that was more fun because it was something new all the time,
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more interesting.
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So I think that's a little more fun to highlight.
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And so what I would do is there are so many things in the cybersecurity realm.
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And what you see day to day, as you say, antivirus,
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strong passwords, this sort of thing.
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And I mean, I think for generations that have grown up on the Internet and with technology, cybersecurity might be second nature to a certain extent.
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But that also means you might not be aware of everything else that's going on under the hood, which I think is what you asked exactly.
233
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So the thing there is that the breadth of what you have to pay attention to with cybersecurity is so huge.
234
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I don't know how to go into deep level on absolutely everything.
235
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But the thing that I do know how to do is I know a lot about all of the little things.
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Like a mile wide inch deep is kind of one of the terms for the certifications that I have,
237
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which are the common ways of proving that you have kind of the knowledge base.
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So what I would do is I would go to various companies and they would have some kind of issue or they would have something that they wanted to improve, so to say.
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So, for example, I would go and do assessments on a company where they would have, I would go through all of these questions asking them, hey, do you take backups?
240
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Do you have this level of, say, security in this area?
241
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Do you think about, sorry, it's hard to take this from kind of the area of, say, my internal jargon, so to say, industry jargon, to something that I can try and make relatable.
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And I know it probably is sounding boring, too, but the more fun stuff from earlier on, because you're always a little more hands-on the early you are in your career.
243
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At least that's been my experience.
244
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But I was part of the, say, the incident response team,
245
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and this is probably the more fun stuff.
246
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So, again, companies have all sorts of tools
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that us individuals might not be aware of.
248
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So there will be whole suites of things,
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stuff to prevent data from leaking out of the corporation.
250
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They have, it's not just antivirus,
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It's intrusion detection and prevention systems that live on all the company machines,
252
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things like this, so that you can remotely see that some kind of virus is getting in,
253
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and then someone like me can go and click to take the Internet connection away.
254
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And I had to do that once.
255
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That was an interesting time.
256
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We had an on-call rotation,
257
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So typically there would be some kind of rotation for someone to get the call if it's the middle of the night.
258
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Yeah, I was on call.
259
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And yeah, something came through at the middle of the night that turned out to be ransomware,
260
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this type of virus that tries to wipe your computer and take a ransom for it, often in Bitcoin as well.
261
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But we stopped it in time.
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That's the beauty of some of these tools is stop it in time.
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And maybe to try to make this a little more, say, practical a little bit is that there are a lot of phases of cybersecurity that are about putting up defenses.
264
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Defense in depth is a sort of a theme that I return to in defending Bitcoin.
265
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You should never depend on only one thing to save you.
266
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You should have layers of defenses.
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So that's akin to having a strong password is one layer, but then also have like a multi-factor authentication app on your phone or something like this as another layer.
268
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Maybe your email account also has some kind of protection so that you can't just change the password on your email address without doing a couple of extra steps.
269
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All of these things, they add a layer of inconvenience, but they keep you more secure.
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So you want to have those layers.
271
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So you set up all of those layers, right?
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But if something happens, that's called an incident.
273
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And when an incident occurs, you have to respond to it.
274
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And then there's a whole phase of responding and recovering from an incident happening.
275
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So throughout the entire life cycle of cybersecurity, so to say,
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knowing about all of these steps and what to do when something happens that basically my job But it pulling out from all sorts of these areas and being agile and flexible and knowing a little about a lot of different things
277
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And then diving deeper when I need to specialize in something.
278
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So I don't think I answered your question all that well, to be honest, but that's a little bit about what I did.
279
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That was a good answer. That was very interesting.
280
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Obviously, everyone knows cybersecurity in general, but it's nice hearing the details of it and to understand actually what someone who works in cybersecurity actually does.
281
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Yeah, thank you.
282
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Well, these days I'm a little more mundane, but the company that I work with makes engines that power AI data centers and things like this.
283
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And so, again, I just feel good about protecting something that has a real effect in the world.
284
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And maybe these AI data centers is something that's competing with Bitcoin to a certain extent, but not really.
285
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I don't think that's actually the case.
286
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So lots of tie-ins.
287
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But my day job, so to say, is something I'm proud to be doing.
288
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and I've moved far enough with it
289
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that I'm now more of a manager type
290
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and I get to move things along
291
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in a little bit more of a slow way.
292
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But that's just career progression, I guess.
293
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And at the moment, I need something
294
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that's a little more stable with young kids
295
00:27:38,695 --> 00:27:41,175
and doing some of this Bitcoin stuff on the side.
296
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Yeah, absolutely.
297
00:27:43,455 --> 00:27:45,575
I mean, yeah, it does sound great.
298
00:27:45,575 --> 00:27:53,435
um yeah going back to when you said you were moving um from calgary i mean you you found
299
00:27:53,435 --> 00:27:59,135
bitcoin during the covid lockdowns of course right around the time that you were moving from
300
00:27:59,135 --> 00:28:05,735
canada's finland and and obviously that's a lot of life-changing things happening all at once so
301
00:28:05,735 --> 00:28:10,635
what was kind of going through your head and how did bitcoin fit into that whole reinvention
302
00:28:10,635 --> 00:28:18,795
yeah sure i mean the biggest thing with it was just that that i needed to find a different way to
303
00:28:18,795 --> 00:28:27,535
to store my wealth basically and it wasn't a lot at the time but but uh we we had to we had to take
304
00:28:27,535 --> 00:28:35,155
everything that we owned in in canada and basically move it over to to finland uh and and so the the
305
00:28:35,155 --> 00:28:42,335
thing with with that was all the say the investments the the the um banking whatever
306
00:28:42,335 --> 00:28:50,195
we had to figure that out and uh i was i'm just a curious person generally this was back uh i mean
307
00:28:50,195 --> 00:28:58,855
back in that era was when when bitcoin was was surging uh so so i i'd been listening to a lot
308
00:28:58,855 --> 00:29:06,335
of podcasts. There had been some crypto-ish people on, for example, the Lex Friedman podcast,
309
00:29:06,775 --> 00:29:15,215
and one of them was Robert Breedlove. And that was really positive because, yeah, that opened
310
00:29:15,215 --> 00:29:21,555
the entire rabbit hole for me. Michael Saylor on Robert Breedlove. And I mean, you can have whatever
311
00:29:21,555 --> 00:29:26,175
opinion you like about Michael Saylor, but he brought a lot of people into Bitcoin. I know
312
00:29:26,175 --> 00:29:32,055
there are some people that think that a lot of the Bitcoiners that came in as a result of, say,
313
00:29:32,135 --> 00:29:38,975
this more philosophical money angle are not the same thing as the type of people who came in in
314
00:29:38,975 --> 00:29:45,135
the sort of early cypherpunk era. But that's Bitcoin adoption. People are going to come at it
315
00:29:45,135 --> 00:29:50,715
from different perspectives. And so the whole thing for me was just a light bulb moment. And
316
00:29:50,715 --> 00:29:58,235
it was partially coincidental. I probably needed to be primed to, say, take this all in. But I was
317
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just looking for some way to, somewhere to put my money in the middle of all this craziness.
318
00:30:06,575 --> 00:30:12,375
Investing separately hadn't worked out all that well. And now suddenly, I had to pull out
319
00:30:12,375 --> 00:30:19,575
everything and move it across the world. And I didn't end up taking all of it over
320
00:30:19,575 --> 00:30:21,695
with Bitcoin, but some of it.
321
00:30:22,795 --> 00:30:25,175
And yeah, that was just a good lesson
322
00:30:25,175 --> 00:30:28,295
in that this is an easier way
323
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to move money from one place to another.
324
00:30:32,315 --> 00:30:35,215
And then it was all just education.
325
00:30:35,395 --> 00:30:37,975
I remember listening to tons and tons of podcasts
326
00:30:37,975 --> 00:30:44,155
and reading a whole lot and going from there.
327
00:30:44,795 --> 00:30:48,775
But yeah, a lot of life changes all at once.
328
00:30:48,775 --> 00:30:52,135
pretty much turned my entire life upside down, you can say.
329
00:30:52,595 --> 00:30:53,615
Yeah, absolutely.
330
00:30:54,035 --> 00:30:56,315
That is very interesting about what you said,
331
00:30:56,415 --> 00:30:58,495
how you had to use it
332
00:30:58,495 --> 00:31:02,975
because it was the easiest form to transfer your money, basically.
333
00:31:03,995 --> 00:31:09,175
I think a lot of people find Bitcoin when they have to use it
334
00:31:09,175 --> 00:31:11,315
rather than just stumbling across it.
335
00:31:12,075 --> 00:31:14,955
They're looking for something that they absolutely need
336
00:31:14,955 --> 00:31:17,715
and they go and then they discover it just how you did.
337
00:31:18,775 --> 00:31:29,675
Yeah, I definitely agree with that because I certainly see it here in Finland, in the Nordics, that adoption is harder because people don't understand why.
338
00:31:29,895 --> 00:31:33,095
People don't see the need for it because life is pretty good.
339
00:31:33,615 --> 00:31:39,455
Finland is the happiest country in the world nine years running, and I mean, I can understand why.
340
00:31:39,455 --> 00:31:59,795
And the thing with it is that if people aren't actively looking for ways out of the system, if they're not already asking some of those same questions like what's going on with inflation and all this, yeah, it's harder to get people in there.
341
00:31:59,795 --> 00:32:06,635
I think for me, I mean, I probably could have if I had done some more research early on.
342
00:32:06,735 --> 00:32:11,535
I probably could have found Bitcoin earlier because inflation never made sense to me.
343
00:32:12,315 --> 00:32:16,715
I could never understand why there has to be this thing called inflation.
344
00:32:16,915 --> 00:32:20,095
Why does it have to go up by 2% per year, et cetera, et cetera.
345
00:32:20,815 --> 00:32:28,015
And so educating people and helping them find Bitcoin is, yeah, a challenge.
346
00:32:28,015 --> 00:32:30,815
and people doing work in developing countries.
347
00:32:30,995 --> 00:32:33,595
I mean, yeah, that's really great work.
348
00:32:33,995 --> 00:32:37,315
A lot of these people don't have a lot of wealth to save,
349
00:32:37,435 --> 00:32:41,355
but if they make the connection that you can put your money into Bitcoin
350
00:32:41,355 --> 00:32:43,075
and you can save your wealth long term
351
00:32:43,075 --> 00:32:50,935
and in some cases avoid massive financial catastrophe, right?
352
00:32:51,155 --> 00:32:53,135
It's great to see.
353
00:32:53,135 --> 00:32:58,915
So I'm just trying to help with adoption here and worldwide.
354
00:32:59,235 --> 00:33:04,915
But it's difficult if people don't know to ask the right questions, as you say.
355
00:33:05,715 --> 00:33:06,595
Yeah, absolutely.
356
00:33:06,835 --> 00:33:09,695
I think that's what I find with younger people.
357
00:33:09,855 --> 00:33:18,355
I mean, they don't particularly like Bitcoin or are interested in it at all because at this age, they don't have a family to look after.
358
00:33:18,355 --> 00:33:22,855
So they're not really thinking, you know, about the financial system.
359
00:33:23,015 --> 00:33:26,155
And because of that, then they don't feel the need for Bitcoin.
360
00:33:26,375 --> 00:33:29,195
And then, yeah, they don't sometimes they don't listen as well.
361
00:33:29,295 --> 00:33:31,315
But, you know, it's all about getting through.
362
00:33:31,475 --> 00:33:32,555
And I am slowly.
363
00:33:33,955 --> 00:33:34,435
Yeah.
364
00:33:34,595 --> 00:33:42,635
And I think the thing there to people your age and your generation and all this, like, I mean, it's tough, man.
365
00:33:42,635 --> 00:33:46,635
Like, I can't imagine growing up in your era.
366
00:33:46,635 --> 00:33:59,375
And I'm not that much older, but yeah, I definitely understand that I was born and had part of my childhood before smartphones ever existed.
367
00:33:59,675 --> 00:34:04,195
I had a period of time where I didn't have access to computer, access to the internet, things like this.
368
00:34:04,195 --> 00:34:07,475
And so the world has just completely changed, right?
369
00:34:07,775 --> 00:34:14,555
And I mean, the pace of technological shift to AI is something else.
370
00:34:14,555 --> 00:34:18,175
It can really do so many, many things.
371
00:34:18,395 --> 00:34:27,475
And I hope younger people don't choose to offload their thinking capacity to the AI.
372
00:34:28,415 --> 00:34:35,755
Use it as a tool, yes, but don't let your thinking capacity atrophy.
373
00:34:36,315 --> 00:34:38,575
And same thing with Bitcoin.
374
00:34:38,575 --> 00:34:48,515
And thinking longer term, it's just so hard when the world seems really bleak and hopeless.
375
00:34:48,915 --> 00:34:55,575
And if you're plugged into all of these social medias, right, and mainstream media for that matter,
376
00:34:55,755 --> 00:35:04,655
like there's a new catastrophe every day and there's new things that you're supposed to worry about and get you down.
377
00:35:04,655 --> 00:35:06,255
and what's the point of having kids,
378
00:35:06,355 --> 00:35:08,795
what's the point of growing something
379
00:35:08,795 --> 00:35:11,595
that's supposed to last decades, right?
380
00:35:12,295 --> 00:35:18,035
And, yeah, I mean, yeah, I was a teenager,
381
00:35:18,435 --> 00:35:19,935
early 20s as well,
382
00:35:19,935 --> 00:35:28,975
and I go back to that I just had to figure out how to grow up,
383
00:35:29,295 --> 00:35:32,915
like figure out how to take responsibility for myself.
384
00:35:32,915 --> 00:35:43,095
And without those steps, I never would have found Bitcoin, never would have had a family, never would have really launched properly.
385
00:35:43,535 --> 00:35:46,975
So Bitcoin isn't the total solution.
386
00:35:47,235 --> 00:35:57,615
It's part of a mindset, a collection of mindset shifts that I think are really important for younger people to take and understand.
387
00:35:57,615 --> 00:36:16,875
And yeah, I mean, good for you for finding Bitcoin and for being a voice in the space for people your age, because it's hard to get across these things when you're young and aren't thinking with those horizons.
388
00:36:17,015 --> 00:36:18,995
I know that was the case for me.
389
00:36:18,995 --> 00:36:22,255
Yeah, absolutely. But yeah, I appreciate that.
390
00:36:22,255 --> 00:36:31,155
But yeah, just all about getting through to everyone, not just the young people, because I think it affects the young people the most because they're going into this world.
391
00:36:31,155 --> 00:36:40,015
But of course, you know, we want to orange pill as many people as possible because everyone kind of deserves to understand and know, really.
392
00:36:40,015 --> 00:36:56,635
Yeah, I completely agree with you on that too, because this is the key for Bitcoin in all ways as I see it, is that get more people to understand, put your savings into Bitcoin, use it when you can.
393
00:36:56,635 --> 00:37:07,835
I mean, in Prague and in other places where I run these book booths with Knut, we only accept Bitcoin in cash.
394
00:37:08,015 --> 00:37:10,955
We don't do fiat payments at all.
395
00:37:11,095 --> 00:37:16,055
And we understand a little bit that, yeah, some people might not have a wallet set up or anything like this.
396
00:37:16,315 --> 00:37:23,455
And therefore, we will sort of reluctantly accept cash as well, the local cash.
397
00:37:23,455 --> 00:37:28,255
But, yeah, we want people to spend their Bitcoin.
398
00:37:28,735 --> 00:37:32,435
And, you know, the number of times I've heard someone say,
399
00:37:32,955 --> 00:37:35,335
yeah, I don't want to spend my good money.
400
00:37:35,495 --> 00:37:38,255
I always say back to them, well, spend and replace.
401
00:37:38,495 --> 00:37:39,195
Spend and replace.
402
00:37:39,415 --> 00:37:42,375
Spend it and then buy some more Bitcoin.
403
00:37:42,555 --> 00:37:44,475
You were going to anyway, something like this.
404
00:37:44,655 --> 00:37:49,935
And it's just the same thing as using fiat if you wanted to do that.
405
00:37:49,935 --> 00:37:56,215
But yeah, bringing more people into the system, and Bitcoin can handle it, definitely.
406
00:37:56,675 --> 00:38:05,295
We're a long way away from having blocks full of financial transactions and high fees just from high adoption.
407
00:38:05,795 --> 00:38:08,895
We've got good layer two capacity.
408
00:38:09,655 --> 00:38:12,835
I mean, we can't onboard the entire world tomorrow.
409
00:38:12,835 --> 00:38:17,655
but bringing people on one at a time, organic growth,
410
00:38:18,275 --> 00:38:21,115
that's something that Bitcoin can handle
411
00:38:21,115 --> 00:38:24,015
and there are great developers building other technologies
412
00:38:24,015 --> 00:38:25,495
and tools to help us scale better.
413
00:38:25,995 --> 00:38:27,555
So I'm optimistic.
414
00:38:28,595 --> 00:38:29,435
Yeah, absolutely.
415
00:38:29,795 --> 00:38:32,035
I mean, yeah, just helping the people.
416
00:38:32,155 --> 00:38:34,595
I mean, that's kind of what you and Canute are doing
417
00:38:34,595 --> 00:38:36,415
in the Bitcoin Infinity show.
418
00:38:36,555 --> 00:38:39,175
I mean, and a whole media and publishing company.
419
00:38:39,335 --> 00:38:41,975
I mean, for someone who just started out volunteering
420
00:38:41,975 --> 00:38:48,575
to help with marketing. How did that snowball into co-founding a company? And what's the lesson
421
00:38:48,575 --> 00:38:54,035
there for a young person who wants to break into something like that, but feels like a nobody right
422
00:38:54,035 --> 00:39:01,075
now? Oh, I mean, I'll start with the lesson. Just say yes to everything and do that for a while.
423
00:39:01,075 --> 00:39:11,035
And it'll start to compound for sure. I did a talk in Riga, is that two years ago now?
424
00:39:11,975 --> 00:39:16,055
Yeah, because time flies a little bit.
425
00:39:16,195 --> 00:39:18,895
But it was at the noob day at the Baldacani Badger.
426
00:39:18,975 --> 00:39:21,955
And it was all about just say yes to everything.
427
00:39:22,875 --> 00:39:33,155
My personal story is basically just getting into the space and finding ways to contribute and taking on more whenever I could.
428
00:39:33,155 --> 00:39:41,375
And the whole thing with starting this publishing company, and we're really kind of a publishing light company.
429
00:39:41,375 --> 00:39:46,835
We only just recently brought on titles that aren't from myself or Knut.
430
00:39:47,475 --> 00:39:53,935
But our entire goal was to basically do self-publishing in a really, really professional way,
431
00:39:54,255 --> 00:40:00,555
all the way up to having a proper company for it and all of the infrastructure there.
432
00:40:00,635 --> 00:40:02,755
But we keep costs super low.
433
00:40:02,895 --> 00:40:07,515
We print everything on demand, which means we make a little bit less per book,
434
00:40:07,515 --> 00:40:12,475
but it also means we don't have to have warehousing and overhead from all that.
435
00:40:13,035 --> 00:40:17,015
But what happened was there was just a dispute with Knut's previous publisher,
436
00:40:17,155 --> 00:40:18,755
and I won't go into the details with that.
437
00:40:19,055 --> 00:40:24,655
It's all been sorted, but he decided with me,
438
00:40:24,815 --> 00:40:28,695
but he decided really that he needed to be independent
439
00:40:28,695 --> 00:40:30,395
and have full control over his books,
440
00:40:30,495 --> 00:40:33,695
and I was right there to help get it going.
441
00:40:33,695 --> 00:40:35,675
I'd learned how to do a few of the
442
00:40:35,675 --> 00:40:37,655
things that
443
00:40:37,655 --> 00:40:39,275
sort of a publisher does
444
00:40:39,275 --> 00:40:41,995
and we figured out the rest along the way
445
00:40:41,995 --> 00:40:43,695
because Knut had also done some
446
00:40:43,695 --> 00:40:45,715
self-publishing previously
447
00:40:45,715 --> 00:40:47,855
and all this so just kind of
448
00:40:47,855 --> 00:40:49,595
fell into it but I mean
449
00:40:49,595 --> 00:40:51,355
for my book for example
450
00:40:51,355 --> 00:40:53,815
I did everything except the cover
451
00:40:53,815 --> 00:40:55,055
design and the
452
00:40:55,055 --> 00:40:57,655
diagrams inside, I'm not a
453
00:40:57,655 --> 00:40:59,635
visual person so well
454
00:40:59,635 --> 00:41:00,455
but everything else
455
00:41:00,455 --> 00:41:03,475
I did myself essentially
456
00:41:03,475 --> 00:41:08,295
because I just learned how to do it and how to put this out properly.
457
00:41:08,595 --> 00:41:13,795
So now working with a few other authors, Max Hillebrand was the latest one,
458
00:41:13,895 --> 00:41:17,935
Yoni Appleberg as well, and we've got a few others potentially coming.
459
00:41:18,835 --> 00:41:25,335
I mean, yeah, I'm not out here to make a ton of money off of my friends on this.
460
00:41:26,895 --> 00:41:30,335
Profit split is mostly what we do with folks,
461
00:41:30,335 --> 00:41:33,055
and I'm just happy to help in a lot of cases
462
00:41:33,055 --> 00:41:40,035
because it doesn't, like many skills, when things, when you do it more often,
463
00:41:40,355 --> 00:41:43,395
you get better at it and it goes faster.
464
00:41:43,575 --> 00:41:48,035
So I just like doing it and helping people get value back from what I do.
465
00:41:48,035 --> 00:41:52,275
I'm happy to, yeah, sort of split it up that way.
466
00:41:52,935 --> 00:41:54,675
That's my philosophy with this.
467
00:41:54,855 --> 00:41:59,795
And I think Knut would agree that it's good to provide value to others
468
00:41:59,795 --> 00:42:02,795
and hopefully they'll give you some value back.
469
00:42:03,095 --> 00:42:05,055
Maybe that's the other lesson too,
470
00:42:05,195 --> 00:42:09,215
is just value yourself properly,
471
00:42:09,215 --> 00:42:12,335
but be willing to help other people.
472
00:42:13,315 --> 00:42:19,135
The intangibles of doing things for others
473
00:42:19,135 --> 00:42:21,635
who you like and who like you,
474
00:42:21,855 --> 00:42:23,335
it all comes back.
475
00:42:23,415 --> 00:42:25,075
Maybe that's something like karma,
476
00:42:25,555 --> 00:42:27,175
but it's real.
477
00:42:27,415 --> 00:42:28,855
I've experienced it.
478
00:42:29,795 --> 00:42:33,215
dozens, hundreds of times now in the Bitcoin space.
479
00:42:34,415 --> 00:42:35,275
Yeah, absolutely.
480
00:42:35,435 --> 00:42:40,475
I think everyone kind of owes thanks to you and Knut for all the help you've done.
481
00:42:40,655 --> 00:42:42,955
But let's actually talk about your book.
482
00:42:42,955 --> 00:42:48,315
I mean, the subtitle is Industrial Grade Cybersecurity for the Monetary Grid.
483
00:42:48,675 --> 00:42:53,095
So obviously you call Bitcoin a monetary grid, like the power grid.
484
00:42:53,435 --> 00:42:54,535
Why that comparison?
485
00:42:54,535 --> 00:43:05,375
Why does thinking about Bitcoin like a piece of critical infrastructure kind of unlock the unusual number go up conversation misses?
486
00:43:06,495 --> 00:43:15,795
Yeah, so I'll be honest that the subtitle is a little bit of bait to get people who aren't so familiar with Bitcoin to take a look at the thing.
487
00:43:15,795 --> 00:43:21,095
and explicitly what I'm out to do with defending Bitcoin
488
00:43:21,095 --> 00:43:24,195
is to have, one, a cybersecurity book for Bitcoiners,
489
00:43:24,295 --> 00:43:28,055
but also a book that people who are in my industry,
490
00:43:28,315 --> 00:43:30,475
cybersecurity or tech more generally,
491
00:43:30,915 --> 00:43:32,115
who are unfamiliar with Bitcoin,
492
00:43:32,215 --> 00:43:34,195
that they can take a look at it and say,
493
00:43:34,675 --> 00:43:36,615
okay, this is something familiar
494
00:43:36,615 --> 00:43:38,335
and give them some grounding
495
00:43:38,335 --> 00:43:40,575
and use language that's familiar to them.
496
00:43:40,735 --> 00:43:42,935
So I would say for Bitcoiners,
497
00:43:42,955 --> 00:43:44,894
for most of the audience of your show,
498
00:43:44,895 --> 00:43:58,415
So this is going to be a book that has an entirely different vocabulary language to what you might be familiar with in, say, Saifedean's books or Knut's books or more technical stuff like Mastering Bitcoin.
499
00:43:58,615 --> 00:44:01,475
The cybersecurity angle is a different one.
500
00:44:02,315 --> 00:44:05,575
To the monetary grid, though, that's not totally out there.
501
00:44:05,575 --> 00:44:14,775
It's tying into basically the role that mining has in the modern-day electrical system.
502
00:44:15,135 --> 00:44:20,775
It's getting more and more an important part of systems like this.
503
00:44:21,535 --> 00:44:26,575
Just the way that, for example, that mining can demand response,
504
00:44:26,915 --> 00:44:34,155
the ability for, say, Bitcoin mining to turn on and off at the needs of the electrical grid to provide stability.
505
00:44:34,155 --> 00:44:42,115
The funny thing is, again, my fiat job company makes effectively the same thing from the opposite direction.
506
00:44:42,315 --> 00:44:47,095
It's small engines for power plants that can turn on really quickly.
507
00:44:47,235 --> 00:44:49,975
So it's kind of the opposite side of the spectrum there.
508
00:44:50,115 --> 00:44:52,195
But Bitcoin mining can do it much faster, though.
509
00:44:52,355 --> 00:44:54,655
Machines can turn on in an instant.
510
00:44:55,015 --> 00:44:59,215
They can just stop hashing or start again extremely quickly.
511
00:44:59,215 --> 00:45:07,655
And so this provides an exceptionally good demand response capability, and it's becoming more and more important for electrical grids.
512
00:45:07,735 --> 00:45:16,615
But there are other use cases for Bitcoin mining, such as, for example, in Finland and in other cold places,
513
00:45:16,895 --> 00:45:22,155
reusing the heat from Bitcoin mining is becoming more and more prevalent and important,
514
00:45:22,155 --> 00:45:27,395
because the mining can financially sustain itself
515
00:45:27,395 --> 00:45:30,195
but then also have another thing that they can essentially sell back
516
00:45:30,195 --> 00:45:37,175
to the municipal service that provides the heated water, things like this.
517
00:45:37,755 --> 00:45:42,895
And that can lower costs for people in these areas as well,
518
00:45:42,895 --> 00:45:48,295
which is a benefit for society that people might not see yet.
519
00:45:48,995 --> 00:45:50,395
And there are lots of these things.
520
00:45:50,535 --> 00:45:51,815
It's not only mining, though.
521
00:45:51,815 --> 00:45:56,815
So it's kind of an analogy as not the word I'd like to use, I guess,
522
00:45:56,815 --> 00:46:05,955
but that Bitcoin is, well, effectively the shorthand is that Bitcoin is becoming a form of critical infrastructure
523
00:46:05,955 --> 00:46:07,995
that we've never seen before.
524
00:46:08,255 --> 00:46:13,855
It's a payment system, but it's also connected in a symbiotic way to electrical systems
525
00:46:13,855 --> 00:46:17,135
and only becoming more and more embedded in that regard.
526
00:46:17,135 --> 00:46:23,795
And so my whole point is that we treat critical infrastructure a certain way in cybersecurity.
527
00:46:24,235 --> 00:46:30,255
We handle it in a different method than cybersecurity for IT systems or personal cybersecurity.
528
00:46:30,875 --> 00:46:43,355
And so I got sort of the light bulb moment to apply a framework that is effectively based on what we do in industrial cybersecurity to Bitcoin.
529
00:46:43,355 --> 00:46:46,115
And everything just fell into place from there.
530
00:46:47,135 --> 00:47:03,015
Yeah, absolutely. I completely agree with, yeah, Bitcoin has that symbiotic kind of relationship with other electronic stuff. And obviously very important that we keep that secure and all of that.
531
00:47:03,015 --> 00:47:12,915
I mean, the book walks through the 10 specific threats to Bitcoin, everything from quantum computing to mining, centralization or key management.
532
00:47:13,275 --> 00:47:21,195
Without making kind of everyone go and read all 10 chapters, which threat do you think people underestimate the most?
533
00:47:22,135 --> 00:47:23,935
Oh, that's a very good question.
534
00:47:23,935 --> 00:47:35,874
uh underestimate well there's right now a lot of uh say on the on the twitter verse and and all this
535
00:47:35,874 --> 00:47:43,055
x um bitcoin social media there's all this stuff going on about say this bip 110 um
536
00:47:43,055 --> 00:47:48,495
i don't know how much you've gone into it with your audience or things like this but the
537
00:47:48,495 --> 00:47:59,415
The underestimate part that kind of comes out of that is what happens when Bitcoin changes?
538
00:47:59,635 --> 00:48:04,075
I think that's the thing that probably answers your question the best.
539
00:48:04,755 --> 00:48:10,615
What happens when Bitcoin changes and what happens if there are unforeseen consequences?
540
00:48:10,615 --> 00:48:21,315
So this is a little deep, but the last major upgrade to Bitcoin was Taproot in 2021.
541
00:48:22,315 --> 00:48:32,615
And Taproot, it introduced a couple of bugs that had the unintended consequence of making it a lot easier to embed arbitrary data onto Bitcoin,
542
00:48:33,415 --> 00:48:39,275
or at least it created vectors that were easier to exploit.
543
00:48:39,275 --> 00:48:59,195
And the thing was, these were potentially actually intentional design decisions that the development community in Bitcoin thought was going to stimulate adoption on Bitcoin or make it easier to do interesting things in terms of scripting.
544
00:49:00,415 --> 00:49:06,295
And the end result has been a lot of community controversy.
545
00:49:06,295 --> 00:49:16,295
Again, I don't know how much you've covered this with your audience, but there is a soft fork that's going to activate in about a month from the date of recording here.
546
00:49:17,475 --> 00:49:26,475
And whether or not that causes a chain split or it just activates successfully or whatever it is, we have no idea.
547
00:49:26,655 --> 00:49:30,975
There's something really uncertain about to happen on Bitcoin.
548
00:49:30,975 --> 00:49:50,675
And so I think the thing that the average person probably underestimates is what can happen when Bitcoin development is done in sort of a controversial way and doesn't take the steps to see what unintended consequences there might be.
549
00:49:50,675 --> 00:50:06,775
And maybe to take this one step further is that anything that makes Bitcoin more extensible in terms of scripting capabilities, it has the potential to add vulnerabilities, attack surface.
550
00:50:07,475 --> 00:50:09,455
That's the cybersecurity term.
551
00:50:09,455 --> 00:50:16,135
And so I advocate for really conservative Bitcoin development.
552
00:50:16,535 --> 00:50:25,755
And I mean that just in terms of go slow, really make sure you don't break things, fix current bugs, do optimizations, sure.
553
00:50:26,695 --> 00:50:33,595
But yeah, try to keep Bitcoin in the same state as far as possible.
554
00:50:33,595 --> 00:50:43,595
And I definitely think we've reached some point where maybe the rules of Bitcoin, the protocol rules of Bitcoin were expanded a little bit too much.
555
00:50:44,015 --> 00:50:47,055
And a tightening might be beneficial.
556
00:50:47,595 --> 00:50:50,815
That's kind of what's going on with this soft fork stuff.
557
00:50:50,815 --> 00:51:06,675
But no matter what happens, that if you are just a Bitcoiner, don't think that you can just ignore anything that goes on in, say, development discussions or things like this.
558
00:51:06,995 --> 00:51:08,795
Get involved. Stay aware.
559
00:51:09,775 --> 00:51:12,155
Bitcoin is all about responsibility, right?
560
00:51:12,155 --> 00:51:20,475
You're taking responsibility for your finances in a way that if you're used to the legacy system, you've never had to do before.
561
00:51:20,815 --> 00:51:25,435
And that responsibility extends in many ways.
562
00:51:25,915 --> 00:51:28,875
So what I've walked through in defending Bitcoin is,
563
00:51:29,155 --> 00:51:30,975
so it's 10 chapters, yes.
564
00:51:32,015 --> 00:51:33,955
I had to draw the line somewhere.
565
00:51:34,235 --> 00:51:38,055
I can't say that this is the comprehensive list
566
00:51:38,055 --> 00:51:40,595
of all the threats to Bitcoin.
567
00:51:40,735 --> 00:51:43,894
And I also don't want to be a fear monger
568
00:51:43,894 --> 00:51:44,955
or anything like this.
569
00:51:45,175 --> 00:51:48,035
I'm not saying that the sky is falling
570
00:51:48,035 --> 00:51:50,255
and you need to know about all of these 10 things.
571
00:51:50,255 --> 00:51:57,275
Maybe I could sell more books if I said that, but the end message is optimistic.
572
00:51:58,495 --> 00:52:15,189
This is all stuff that you can do and you can get a handle on So what the typical Bitcoiner might be underestimating is just how much you can get involved Like pay attention to this stuff and don let Bitcoin change without
573
00:52:15,189 --> 00:52:24,269
you letting it, without you understanding and making your voice heard. Yeah, absolutely. I think
574
00:52:24,269 --> 00:52:29,790
that's very good advice because I even know a lot of people in the Bitcoin space who, you know,
575
00:52:29,990 --> 00:52:35,429
don't even understand BIP-110, for example. And I think in that, I mean, in that situation,
576
00:52:35,810 --> 00:52:42,749
it's important that we kind of do learn and understand it. So kind of, you know, what's
577
00:52:42,749 --> 00:52:46,310
going on in your future. I think it's very important. I mean, at the end of the day,
578
00:52:46,310 --> 00:52:53,689
this is your own finances. So, I mean, it's very much in your interest to know what is going on.
579
00:52:53,689 --> 00:53:02,810
exactly and i mean the the whole thing with it is that it it's not really to say that you should
580
00:53:02,810 --> 00:53:10,290
get involved and like like be on twitter all the time and and pick a side whatever it is but
581
00:53:10,290 --> 00:53:20,169
run a node um that's important use it to validate your own transactions um if you if you are a
582
00:53:20,169 --> 00:53:27,909
merchant, like if you sell any kind of goods and services, run it through a node that you control.
583
00:53:28,550 --> 00:53:33,090
The ideal thing would be to use like something what I got behind me there. I've got a start nine
584
00:53:33,090 --> 00:53:41,350
node whirring away there. But I've also used nodes that are in the cloud because it's easier
585
00:53:41,350 --> 00:53:47,889
to keep them running. Like for me to be sure that they're going to be running at all times,
586
00:53:47,889 --> 00:53:52,030
there could be an internet issue at my house or something like this.
587
00:53:52,169 --> 00:53:58,570
And so the ideal thing would be running a node that you control the physical hardware,
588
00:53:58,669 --> 00:54:00,189
but cloud is also okay.
589
00:54:00,649 --> 00:54:05,490
Run a node and accept Bitcoin through your own node
590
00:54:05,490 --> 00:54:09,050
and validate your transactions with your rules.
591
00:54:09,510 --> 00:54:12,869
And this goes a long way to decentralizing the network
592
00:54:12,869 --> 00:54:17,490
and making sure that the network is following the rules that you agree to.
593
00:54:17,490 --> 00:54:29,510
And I'm choosing my language very carefully here because the thing with it is that Bitcoin is always what you decide it is for you.
594
00:54:30,209 --> 00:54:37,689
But it only stays Bitcoin if you are in agreement with the rest of the network.
595
00:54:37,889 --> 00:54:42,970
That doesn't mean you have to agree 100% with everyone who is also using Bitcoin.
596
00:54:42,970 --> 00:54:52,769
It just means that you all have to agree that the next block that comes in on the rules that that block has to follow, right?
597
00:54:53,450 --> 00:55:04,929
And sort of to the BIP-110 side of it, a soft fork by definition means that it's a tightening of the rules,
598
00:55:05,149 --> 00:55:11,169
and all previous nodes will be compatible with that soft fork by default.
599
00:55:11,169 --> 00:55:18,869
So if the new rules get followed without controversy, that's just going to become the new rules of Bitcoin.
600
00:55:19,909 --> 00:55:31,950
So people can object to the soft fork on whatever grounds, but if it changes the behavior of the network and becomes what everyone agrees on, you don't really have a right to complain.
601
00:55:31,950 --> 00:55:44,669
So this is just what I'm saying is that your node is your voice on the network and your only means of saying your opinion on what should happen on the network.
602
00:55:44,810 --> 00:55:52,749
But ultimately, consensus is something that we all have to come to together or else it stops being Bitcoin.
603
00:55:53,209 --> 00:55:55,310
So that's just very lightly.
604
00:55:55,550 --> 00:55:57,490
Again, I don't know how much you want to dig into that topic.
605
00:55:57,490 --> 00:56:01,070
But yeah, it's a tough one.
606
00:56:01,950 --> 00:56:04,889
that's going to apply to all changes in Bitcoin forever.
607
00:56:05,090 --> 00:56:06,929
So that's just general advice.
608
00:56:07,929 --> 00:56:08,550
Yeah, absolutely.
609
00:56:08,769 --> 00:56:12,229
I appreciate the insight and just kind of helping my audience
610
00:56:12,229 --> 00:56:14,350
kind of understand what is going on.
611
00:56:14,470 --> 00:56:18,109
Because, yeah, again, a lot of people don't know,
612
00:56:18,149 --> 00:56:20,669
and I think you've explained it nicely and simply there
613
00:56:20,669 --> 00:56:22,570
so that everyone can understand, really.
614
00:56:24,109 --> 00:56:27,769
Well, yeah, I mean, on this particular issue,
615
00:56:27,769 --> 00:56:32,070
all I advocate for is that you do your own research.
616
00:56:32,370 --> 00:56:35,570
And I've gone back and forth a little bit.
617
00:56:35,570 --> 00:56:42,729
My stance was previously that, okay, maybe don't try to go ahead with this fork
618
00:56:42,729 --> 00:56:44,629
because it could cause some issues.
619
00:56:44,889 --> 00:56:46,629
But now it's just happening.
620
00:56:46,950 --> 00:56:48,050
It's going to happen.
621
00:56:48,490 --> 00:56:57,590
And my view as a risk manager side of things is that BIP-110 activating smoothly
622
00:56:57,590 --> 00:57:01,129
is going to be the least chaotic thing that could happen on the network.
623
00:57:01,570 --> 00:57:07,389
All of the bad scenarios in terms of uncertainty with a chain split
624
00:57:07,389 --> 00:57:13,870
would be from, yeah, if Bit110 fails to activate
625
00:57:13,870 --> 00:57:16,350
and then we have no idea what's going to happen.
626
00:57:16,570 --> 00:57:18,189
So let's see.
627
00:57:18,850 --> 00:57:24,470
But that's my view as a cybersecurity professional risk manager
628
00:57:24,470 --> 00:57:29,769
that, in my view, the least chaotic option
629
00:57:29,769 --> 00:57:31,950
would be for BIP-110 to activate smoothly.
630
00:57:32,189 --> 00:57:34,350
So do with that information what you like.
631
00:57:35,189 --> 00:57:36,389
Okay, thank you.
632
00:57:36,470 --> 00:57:37,609
That's great information.
633
00:57:38,189 --> 00:57:40,030
Going back onto those risks,
634
00:57:40,909 --> 00:57:43,169
could you explain for my audience
635
00:57:43,169 --> 00:57:45,010
that kind of wouldn't understand it,
636
00:57:45,010 --> 00:57:50,010
what is the huge risk of quantum computing?
637
00:57:51,310 --> 00:57:53,510
Okay, so quantum computing,
638
00:57:53,510 --> 00:57:59,550
the main thing that people are concerned about is that quantum computing has a way of changing
639
00:57:59,550 --> 00:58:06,749
or, say, bypassing the mathematical structures that we rely on with modern computing.
640
00:58:07,570 --> 00:58:15,629
And the biggest way it can attack Bitcoin is through a means of deriving the private key
641
00:58:15,629 --> 00:58:19,570
from a known public key through something called Shor's algorithm.
642
00:58:19,570 --> 00:58:33,409
And the thing here is that Bitcoin is built on primarily SHA-256 cryptography, which has a lot of...
643
00:58:33,409 --> 00:58:34,149
Sorry, sorry.
644
00:58:35,389 --> 00:58:37,490
I really should be precise about this.
645
00:58:37,749 --> 00:58:43,129
SHA-256 is the hashing algorithm that we use for Bitcoin mining.
646
00:58:43,129 --> 00:58:51,409
But elliptic curve cryptography, sorry, is the cryptography that Bitcoin is based on.
647
00:58:51,550 --> 00:59:06,050
And this Shores algorithm has a mechanism, theoretically, of being able to take the public key, which is available in many types of Bitcoin addresses and is always available if you spend your Bitcoin from an address.
648
00:59:06,050 --> 00:59:10,729
it's able to then go find the private key
649
00:59:10,729 --> 00:59:16,649
which means it can move any funds attached to that address
650
00:59:16,649 --> 00:59:20,429
wherever they would like, presumably to their own wallet, for example.
651
00:59:21,409 --> 00:59:25,550
I don't know if you'd need me to go into the public key, private key thing
652
00:59:25,550 --> 00:59:28,990
but the private key is what you use to sign your transactions
653
00:59:28,990 --> 00:59:30,590
and actually lets you move your Bitcoin
654
00:59:30,590 --> 00:59:34,689
and the public key is what people send Bitcoin to effectively.
655
00:59:36,050 --> 00:59:47,090
So the thing with it is that quantum computing has the potential to break this down, but it requires massive, massive amounts of resources.
656
00:59:47,450 --> 00:59:49,389
Computing power is really the wrong word.
657
00:59:49,929 --> 00:59:53,570
The quantum computers that are required to do this, they don't exist yet.
658
00:59:53,570 --> 01:00:00,950
the theoretical amount of, it's called qubits,
659
01:00:01,089 --> 01:00:05,070
which is the equivalent to the bits in a computer, ones and zeros,
660
01:00:05,209 --> 01:00:07,589
but their ability to act on them in a quantum fashion,
661
01:00:08,490 --> 01:00:10,669
that they would need something like 10,000 of them.
662
01:00:11,330 --> 01:00:16,369
And I think the largest one that's being made now
663
01:00:16,369 --> 01:00:19,089
is in the range of 5 to 10 or something like this.
664
01:00:19,249 --> 01:00:22,010
And it's not even fully reliable, right?
665
01:00:22,010 --> 01:00:30,830
So the thing is, the number of qubits required to do this quantum action keeps going down, theoretically.
666
01:00:31,310 --> 01:00:35,950
People working on this stuff keep on reducing the number that they think is going to be needed.
667
01:00:36,769 --> 01:00:44,629
All the while, people working to build quantum computers keep getting better and more money and more funding and all this.
668
01:00:44,629 --> 01:00:47,590
the whole thing with it is that
669
01:00:47,590 --> 01:00:50,729
I'm not convinced that quantum is ever
670
01:00:50,729 --> 01:00:53,209
going to materialize properly
671
01:00:53,209 --> 01:00:56,229
there's even some philosophical angles
672
01:00:56,229 --> 01:00:59,070
that folks like Jeff Booth even talk about
673
01:00:59,070 --> 01:01:03,450
where it's like if quantum computing actually could work
674
01:01:03,450 --> 01:01:06,290
the world as we know it
675
01:01:06,290 --> 01:01:08,330
would make no sense effectively
676
01:01:08,330 --> 01:01:11,649
and so that's kind of a proof that quantum
677
01:01:11,649 --> 01:01:14,090
shouldn't be able to work
678
01:01:14,950 --> 01:01:17,109
I'm not sure where I stand on all that.
679
01:01:17,669 --> 01:01:26,129
Being realistic about it, quantum might become an issue in the next five years, 10 years, 20 years.
680
01:01:26,870 --> 01:01:34,530
Even if it never materializes, the way of calculating risk is likelihood times impact.
681
01:01:34,709 --> 01:01:38,129
So likelihood, this should be straightforward enough.
682
01:01:38,269 --> 01:01:40,669
How likely is it for something bad to happen?
683
01:01:40,769 --> 01:01:43,569
And the impact is how bad is it, right?
684
01:01:43,570 --> 01:01:47,290
Stubbing your toe is high likelihood but low impact.
685
01:01:47,790 --> 01:01:52,810
Getting hit by lightning is low likelihood but very high impact.
686
01:01:54,609 --> 01:01:59,689
Quantum computing is one of these things where the likelihood is extremely hard to gauge.
687
01:02:00,109 --> 01:02:02,629
We don't know how likely it is it's going to happen.
688
01:02:02,629 --> 01:02:10,109
If you're thinking in terms of time scales, the further along the line you look, the higher the likelihood gets, I guess.
689
01:02:10,109 --> 01:02:14,570
And the criticality or the impact is massive.
690
01:02:15,790 --> 01:02:18,429
Everyone loses their Bitcoin by the end of it.
691
01:02:18,589 --> 01:02:20,890
So we really should do something.
692
01:02:21,609 --> 01:02:24,269
But the thing is not everyone is vulnerable, first of all.
693
01:02:25,390 --> 01:02:33,070
The big thing we sort of talked about when discussing quantum is that Satoshi's coins are at risk.
694
01:02:33,070 --> 01:02:43,209
And that's true because they use a type of address that was effectively just the public key.
695
01:02:43,290 --> 01:02:44,790
So we know all the public keys.
696
01:02:44,970 --> 01:02:47,530
They can go and try and derive the private key.
697
01:02:49,249 --> 01:02:53,549
But the thing is, it's not like he's got like 2 million Bitcoin in one address.
698
01:02:53,970 --> 01:02:56,490
They're in 50 Bitcoin chunks, right?
699
01:02:56,769 --> 01:03:00,950
And every single one of those addresses has a unique private key, a different private key.
700
01:03:00,950 --> 01:03:06,330
and they have to do that quantum operation on every single address in order to get them.
701
01:03:06,330 --> 01:03:09,149
Now, 50 Bitcoin, yeah, okay, of course, that's a lot.
702
01:03:10,269 --> 01:03:15,089
But it does mean that if there is a quantum computer that's able to do this,
703
01:03:15,169 --> 01:03:17,330
it's not like they're going to be able to...
704
01:03:18,030 --> 01:03:20,450
Like, this is expensive. It's energy intensive.
705
01:03:20,830 --> 01:03:24,169
It requires energy and resources and money.
706
01:03:24,810 --> 01:03:28,189
So it's not like they'd be able to just turn on the quantum computer
707
01:03:28,189 --> 01:03:31,649
and instantly grab all of the vulnerable Bitcoin.
708
01:03:32,350 --> 01:03:35,350
And the other good thing is there's a rate limiter on Bitcoin, right?
709
01:03:35,350 --> 01:03:42,429
The new block every 10 minutes kind of thing makes it so that Bitcoin is naturally a little bit resilient.
710
01:03:42,649 --> 01:03:45,330
There's some time to move your coins.
711
01:03:47,350 --> 01:03:54,790
And the common address types used today, especially SegWit, are already not quantum proof,
712
01:03:54,929 --> 01:03:57,850
but they don't show the public key.
713
01:03:58,189 --> 01:04:02,709
until you spend from that address.
714
01:04:02,830 --> 01:04:04,709
So this is kind of a key thing here,
715
01:04:04,790 --> 01:04:08,850
an actual best practice is never reuse a Bitcoin address.
716
01:04:09,209 --> 01:04:11,909
As soon as you spend from that address,
717
01:04:12,229 --> 01:04:13,310
never use it again.
718
01:04:14,149 --> 01:04:18,070
And then move the remainder to a different change address,
719
01:04:18,209 --> 01:04:18,810
et cetera, et cetera.
720
01:04:18,950 --> 01:04:20,709
Just never use that same address again.
721
01:04:20,970 --> 01:04:22,169
There are many reasons to do that.
722
01:04:22,169 --> 01:04:25,830
Privacy is one of them, but quantum security is the other.
723
01:04:25,830 --> 01:04:28,350
so that keeps you from being vulnerable
724
01:04:28,350 --> 01:04:29,769
until you go to spend it
725
01:04:29,769 --> 01:04:32,350
and then an attacker has
726
01:04:32,350 --> 01:04:33,749
10 minutes approximately
727
01:04:33,749 --> 01:04:36,530
to beat you to it effectively
728
01:04:36,530 --> 01:04:36,889
but
729
01:04:36,889 --> 01:04:40,269
so recap a little bit
730
01:04:40,269 --> 01:04:42,589
super low likelihood
731
01:04:42,589 --> 01:04:44,409
maybe it never even
732
01:04:44,409 --> 01:04:46,429
happens but it's so critical
733
01:04:46,429 --> 01:04:48,409
that we really should do something
734
01:04:48,409 --> 01:04:50,310
to prepare for it and post quantum
735
01:04:50,310 --> 01:04:52,310
cryptography there are some great people who
736
01:04:52,310 --> 01:04:54,569
are working on this multiple proposals
737
01:04:54,569 --> 01:04:55,569
at the moment
738
01:04:55,569 --> 01:05:09,409
But one major downside to most of these post-quantum cryptography systems is that they tend to be larger, as in they take more per transaction, more space.
739
01:05:09,810 --> 01:05:18,830
So that gets into some issues of do we have enough throughput in the current Bitcoin block size to be able to accommodate these larger transactions?
740
01:05:19,030 --> 01:05:22,330
There's some difficulties here we're going to have to navigate.
741
01:05:22,330 --> 01:05:24,769
but good people are working on it
742
01:05:24,769 --> 01:05:27,530
and all I would say is that
743
01:05:27,530 --> 01:05:30,769
you don't have to be worried about this right now
744
01:05:30,769 --> 01:05:33,229
especially just do this
745
01:05:33,229 --> 01:05:35,350
don't reuse addresses
746
01:05:35,350 --> 01:05:38,689
I also say don't use Taproot
747
01:05:38,689 --> 01:05:40,889
and it's
748
01:05:40,889 --> 01:05:44,869
yeah Taproot has privacy benefits
749
01:05:44,869 --> 01:05:46,109
some privacy benefits
750
01:05:46,109 --> 01:05:48,030
if you're doing things like multi-sig
751
01:05:48,030 --> 01:05:49,030
or things like this
752
01:05:49,030 --> 01:05:50,909
they all just look the same
753
01:05:50,909 --> 01:05:55,149
but it's quantum vulnerable.
754
01:05:55,669 --> 01:05:58,129
So my recommendations are use SegWit,
755
01:05:58,249 --> 01:05:59,429
never reuse an address
756
01:05:59,429 --> 01:06:03,769
and just be aware of what's going on
757
01:06:03,769 --> 01:06:06,350
in the network, the space
758
01:06:06,350 --> 01:06:11,290
and move your coins to a quantum safe address
759
01:06:11,290 --> 01:06:13,990
when the time comes, when fees are low
760
01:06:13,990 --> 01:06:17,929
so that you don't get caught in a panic
761
01:06:17,929 --> 01:06:20,830
if it does happen.
762
01:06:20,909 --> 01:06:25,229
that the elliptic curve cryptography
763
01:06:25,229 --> 01:06:26,649
is broken by quantum computing.
764
01:06:27,149 --> 01:06:28,669
Personally, frankly,
765
01:06:28,810 --> 01:06:30,749
I don't think it's ever going to happen,
766
01:06:31,010 --> 01:06:32,530
but could be wrong.
767
01:06:32,909 --> 01:06:34,649
And that's why we prepare.
768
01:06:35,769 --> 01:06:36,569
Yeah, absolutely.
769
01:06:36,830 --> 01:06:39,409
I think I couldn't really be a better person
770
01:06:39,409 --> 01:06:42,550
to get advice for on this particular subject.
771
01:06:42,790 --> 01:06:45,129
I mean, yeah, that is very interesting.
772
01:06:45,550 --> 01:06:47,950
But yeah, it's all about that kind of risk assessment,
773
01:06:47,950 --> 01:06:56,189
whether it's gonna happen but of course it's always better to uh be safe than sorry
774
01:06:56,189 --> 01:07:01,129
exactly and i'll definitely say there are other people who know more about the quantum
775
01:07:01,129 --> 01:07:06,810
thing specifically but from from my perspective in terms of how to analyze risk that's my process
776
01:07:06,810 --> 01:07:14,330
and again like everything else don't don't trust verify do your own research if you'd like to
777
01:07:14,330 --> 01:07:21,589
outsource some of your research to me. My recommendation is do the things I mentioned
778
01:07:21,589 --> 01:07:29,689
and just stay aware. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, definitely. I mean, well, you come from a world,
779
01:07:29,929 --> 01:07:36,330
industrial kind of control systems where security failure isn't an inconvenience. It's a refinery
780
01:07:36,330 --> 01:07:43,609
exploding or a power grid going dark. So what does that world kind of teach you about Bitcoin that
781
01:07:43,609 --> 01:07:48,109
people who only come from finance or crypto side completely miss?
782
01:07:49,229 --> 01:07:53,490
Sure. Well, the most important difference with all of those types of systems is that they
783
01:07:53,490 --> 01:08:00,929
absolutely have to keep running. That's the entire game. Those systems, if they go down,
784
01:08:01,010 --> 01:08:06,769
there's some consequence in the real world. And we don't want that. A pipeline goes down,
785
01:08:06,769 --> 01:08:12,990
you suddenly don't have a whole ton of energy moving into the place that it should, right?
786
01:08:12,990 --> 01:08:16,649
if, say, an electrical power plant goes down.
787
01:08:16,730 --> 01:08:17,330
Same thing.
788
01:08:17,790 --> 01:08:20,290
Factory goes down something that was valuable,
789
01:08:20,430 --> 01:08:21,430
that was being produced,
790
01:08:21,850 --> 01:08:24,669
that's no longer going out to the shelves.
791
01:08:25,690 --> 01:08:28,249
I mean, everywhere you go,
792
01:08:28,410 --> 01:08:31,290
there'll be some factory producing the food you eat, right?
793
01:08:31,350 --> 01:08:32,589
This stuff is all critical.
794
01:08:33,089 --> 01:08:34,669
It's all important for everyday life.
795
01:08:35,029 --> 01:08:37,890
So the availability of the system is the most important thing.
796
01:08:37,890 --> 01:08:40,310
Now, that's superseded a little bit
797
01:08:40,310 --> 01:08:42,810
by something that doesn't happen in the Bitcoin world,
798
01:08:42,810 --> 01:08:43,810
and that's safety.
799
01:08:44,049 --> 01:08:47,930
And I really don't think that there is a place
800
01:08:47,930 --> 01:08:53,290
where there's a safety implication for Bitcoin,
801
01:08:53,489 --> 01:08:55,370
as in when something goes wrong in Bitcoin,
802
01:08:55,950 --> 01:08:57,930
people aren't likely to get injured or die.
803
01:08:58,510 --> 01:09:01,510
Maybe you could contort yourself into some scenarios
804
01:09:01,510 --> 01:09:03,569
of that if someone loses access to their Bitcoin
805
01:09:03,569 --> 01:09:05,609
and they can't pay something,
806
01:09:05,910 --> 01:09:07,430
but that's secondary effects.
807
01:09:08,830 --> 01:09:11,609
So safety is the primary thing.
808
01:09:11,609 --> 01:09:14,730
if one of these systems has a major problem.
809
01:09:15,390 --> 01:09:17,470
Shutting down safely so that people don't die
810
01:09:17,470 --> 01:09:19,109
is the most important thing,
811
01:09:19,209 --> 01:09:21,629
but keeping them running otherwise is the thing.
812
01:09:22,049 --> 01:09:23,350
And that's the same for Bitcoin.
813
01:09:24,669 --> 01:09:28,249
Contrast that to sort of the more traditional world
814
01:09:28,249 --> 01:09:29,790
or finance or something like this.
815
01:09:29,850 --> 01:09:31,910
The thing you most want to keep control of
816
01:09:31,910 --> 01:09:34,649
is the confidentiality of your information.
817
01:09:35,129 --> 01:09:38,870
You do not want your, say, email password leaked.
818
01:09:38,870 --> 01:09:41,270
You don't want your bank credentials leaked.
819
01:09:41,609 --> 01:09:44,410
because then the bad guys can do bad things.
820
01:09:44,790 --> 01:09:46,109
And yeah, not good.
821
01:09:46,709 --> 01:09:51,529
And that's what traditional cybersecurity is built around.
822
01:09:52,089 --> 01:09:54,330
It's called the CIA triad
823
01:09:54,330 --> 01:09:58,049
and no relation to the United States Agency.
824
01:09:58,850 --> 01:10:01,430
But confidentiality, integrity, availability.
825
01:10:01,970 --> 01:10:04,169
So I talked about confidentiality and availability.
826
01:10:04,569 --> 01:10:08,649
Integrity is related kind of to the confidentiality,
827
01:10:08,730 --> 01:10:09,569
but it's its own pillar.
828
01:10:09,569 --> 01:10:17,830
it means things don't get tampered with. And so if your, say, your account gets hacked,
829
01:10:17,930 --> 01:10:23,529
your X account or your email or whatever, and they change the password, they've tampered with it,
830
01:10:23,810 --> 01:10:29,609
and then they might go use it to try to scam people or get your funds, take your information,
831
01:10:29,749 --> 01:10:34,749
whatever it is. And so that's an integrity violation. Confidentiality and integrity tend
832
01:10:34,749 --> 01:10:36,010
to go together a little bit.
833
01:10:37,550 --> 01:10:39,209
And the availability side of things
834
01:10:39,209 --> 01:10:42,249
is kind of the secondary pillar
835
01:10:42,249 --> 01:10:44,550
in terms of traditional cybersecurity.
836
01:10:45,410 --> 01:10:46,949
But keeping the system running,
837
01:10:47,029 --> 01:10:48,230
that's the most important thing
838
01:10:48,230 --> 01:10:49,290
in critical infrastructure,
839
01:10:49,410 --> 01:10:50,850
and that's the most important thing
840
01:10:50,850 --> 01:10:51,970
when it comes to Bitcoin.
841
01:10:52,169 --> 01:10:54,209
And so everything I talk about
842
01:10:54,209 --> 01:10:55,190
in defending Bitcoin
843
01:10:55,190 --> 01:10:58,310
is from the angle of making sure
844
01:10:58,310 --> 01:11:00,510
that the availability of the system is working.
845
01:11:00,510 --> 01:11:02,109
Now, the exception here
846
01:11:02,109 --> 01:11:03,350
is that your personal Bitcoin,
847
01:11:03,350 --> 01:11:07,270
you are making sure that your private key stays confidential.
848
01:11:07,529 --> 01:11:08,970
That's the entire thing.
849
01:11:09,649 --> 01:11:12,890
If your Bitcoin private key gets leaked,
850
01:11:13,330 --> 01:11:15,489
consider your Bitcoin gone, right?
851
01:11:15,870 --> 01:11:19,109
And so there's an entire side of personal Bitcoin security
852
01:11:19,109 --> 01:11:21,749
that's all about keeping your private key safe,
853
01:11:21,870 --> 01:11:23,930
keeping yourself private, right?
854
01:11:24,089 --> 01:11:26,510
The confidentiality of your own information.
855
01:11:26,949 --> 01:11:28,270
I highly recommend, by the way,
856
01:11:28,330 --> 01:11:30,870
Max Hillibrand's book, The Praxeology of Privacy,
857
01:11:30,870 --> 01:11:35,029
for a really, really good deep dive in what privacy means
858
01:11:35,029 --> 01:11:36,989
and how to put it into practice.
859
01:11:37,609 --> 01:11:40,989
The chapter eight, the privacy chapter in defending Bitcoin,
860
01:11:41,230 --> 01:11:45,050
I borrowed a fair bit from Max's book.
861
01:11:45,330 --> 01:11:49,790
So yeah, I highly recommend that one for personal privacy practices.
862
01:11:50,669 --> 01:11:54,529
But then everything to do with the network is about keeping it running,
863
01:11:55,370 --> 01:11:58,910
keeping everything running smoothly, the risks to that,
864
01:11:58,910 --> 01:12:05,149
The primary players there are the nodes, the miners, the development, the governance structures.
865
01:12:05,709 --> 01:12:16,209
So, yeah, I've tackled pretty much everything where I can think of that relates to how the system keeps running.
866
01:12:16,350 --> 01:12:18,089
And I hope it's educational.
867
01:12:18,350 --> 01:12:25,069
I think it's something that many Bitcoiners might not be so aware of, the dynamics of these things.
868
01:12:26,069 --> 01:12:28,190
They're deep topics.
869
01:12:28,970 --> 01:12:35,169
The best book that I'm aware of that tackles some of these things in terms of a development angle
870
01:12:35,169 --> 01:12:38,409
is Bitcoin Development Philosophy by Kali Rosenbaum.
871
01:12:38,949 --> 01:12:40,149
I highly recommend that book.
872
01:12:40,290 --> 01:12:44,609
I read that as well in the run-up to Defending Bitcoin.
873
01:12:44,830 --> 01:12:46,009
Highly recommend as well.
874
01:12:46,089 --> 01:12:49,270
But it's a technical book kind of for developers.
875
01:12:49,270 --> 01:12:55,190
So Defending Bitcoin is meant for someone who doesn't know all the technical details ahead of time,
876
01:12:55,249 --> 01:12:57,370
and I try to explain it in an accessible way.
877
01:12:58,190 --> 01:13:02,430
And well, yeah, I think I've done a pretty good job there.
878
01:13:02,589 --> 01:13:09,009
And you can then jump off and learn more about the parts that interest you most.
879
01:13:10,149 --> 01:13:11,149
Yeah, absolutely.
880
01:13:11,370 --> 01:13:13,989
I think I advise everyone to do that.
881
01:13:14,129 --> 01:13:17,129
And I think, yeah, it's great what you're doing.
882
01:13:17,129 --> 01:13:24,909
And it's interesting because you've got kind of a different sort of perspective than most people in Bitcoin.
883
01:13:24,909 --> 01:13:34,749
I mean, you even said in your book that Bitcoin is both better off and worse off than people think, which is obviously very different from the usual.
884
01:13:34,989 --> 01:13:40,129
Oh, Bitcoin's perfect and couldn't ever fail hype that we kind of get everywhere.
885
01:13:41,089 --> 01:13:47,129
So why was it really important to you to be so honest about the weaknesses instead of just cheerleading?
886
01:13:48,050 --> 01:13:48,410
Sure.
887
01:13:48,930 --> 01:13:54,870
Well, yeah, anything but honesty means that we're sticking our head in the sand.
888
01:13:56,649 --> 01:14:02,770
There's a term thrown around anti-fragility, that Bitcoin has this anti-fragility property.
889
01:14:02,770 --> 01:14:11,169
But some people on X in real life, too, who sort of say that, hey, yeah, Bitcoin is anti-fragile.
890
01:14:11,249 --> 01:14:16,830
We're going to get through this no matter what, as if it's just something that just happens.
891
01:14:16,830 --> 01:14:22,310
But that's not true. It's the actions of Bitcoiners that makes Bitcoin anti-fragile.
892
01:14:22,470 --> 01:14:29,169
And so there's always something you can do in every domain of whether it's security.
893
01:14:29,989 --> 01:14:33,249
You can think about Bitcoin from many different angles.
894
01:14:33,390 --> 01:14:37,830
This is mine. This is what I'm able to contribute to the space.
895
01:14:37,830 --> 01:14:46,770
And I mean, in one sense, I sort of don't know why I didn't realize earlier that this was something I could contribute.
896
01:14:46,830 --> 01:14:51,089
At the same time, I think it's good that I spent a while in the space.
897
01:14:51,589 --> 01:14:59,190
I'm no OG, but I'm not arriving on the scene totally fresh and saying,
898
01:14:59,609 --> 01:15:01,709
I'm here to fix Bitcoin. You're welcome.
899
01:15:02,989 --> 01:15:10,510
This is something that I spent months on and spent a long time thinking about,
900
01:15:10,629 --> 01:15:12,370
and it's my contribution.
901
01:15:12,370 --> 01:15:17,430
and I hope that people reading Defending Bitcoin
902
01:15:17,430 --> 01:15:21,649
see it as a way to empower themselves
903
01:15:21,649 --> 01:15:30,569
to defend what should be the way out of the fiat system.
904
01:15:30,569 --> 01:15:34,770
And for those of us who have really taken the orange pill,
905
01:15:34,970 --> 01:15:35,749
that's what it is.
906
01:15:35,790 --> 01:15:41,089
It's the way out of these oppressive systems that run the world,
907
01:15:41,089 --> 01:15:48,949
the money printing, the increasing nation-state surveillance,
908
01:15:49,230 --> 01:15:52,609
these wars that none of us ever sign up for, right?
909
01:15:52,890 --> 01:15:57,749
Bitcoin is a way out of that system, and I really, really truly believe that.
910
01:15:57,909 --> 01:16:03,370
And I mean, even these sort of low-level development things,
911
01:16:03,529 --> 01:16:05,209
like these forks and things like this,
912
01:16:05,310 --> 01:16:10,770
the only reason I'm involved with it at all is because I don't want this project to fail.
913
01:16:11,089 --> 01:16:27,190
And calling out where I see that there are failings or I'm not implying that anything is on behalf of individuals that are in the Bitcoin ecosystem.
914
01:16:27,430 --> 01:16:28,310
Anything is malicious.
915
01:16:29,270 --> 01:16:30,989
I'm not implying that at all.
916
01:16:31,589 --> 01:16:35,430
But people do view the world from their own lenses.
917
01:16:35,430 --> 01:16:54,449
And I do think the development community in Bitcoin is out of touch from the people who are adopting Bitcoin just to save their money, just to store their value and have a medium of exchange that can't get censored.
918
01:16:54,449 --> 01:17:01,850
right and and so yeah i'm i'm not calling people out to be to be mean or to be unfair i'm i'm i'm
919
01:17:01,850 --> 01:17:10,209
trying to be honest i'm trying to be balanced and if we as a community can acknowledge uh some some
920
01:17:10,209 --> 01:17:16,649
things are maybe not being done in an ideal way and we can work towards improving that and improving
921
01:17:16,649 --> 01:17:22,350
the robustness of bitcoin it's just going to increase the the chances of this project succeeding
922
01:17:22,350 --> 01:17:28,870
and making life better in five years, 10 years, 20 years for the next generation and onwards.
923
01:17:29,669 --> 01:17:37,169
Yeah, absolutely. And I think it is really important to emphasize maybe the negative points of Bitcoin
924
01:17:37,169 --> 01:17:46,129
because, you know, I mean, when you start ignoring the downsides, that's when the really bad sides start to kind of kick in.
925
01:17:46,129 --> 01:17:53,129
when you ignore what's actually going on and just kind of pretend it's all perfect and rainbows and everything,
926
01:17:53,129 --> 01:17:57,129
that's when the bad stuff really starts to properly creep in.
927
01:17:57,129 --> 01:18:14,244
Yeah like I mean there a few examples here Mining decentralization is another one of these things that maybe this might have been actually a better answer to your earlier question what people underestimate There one mining pool right now Foundry
928
01:18:14,364 --> 01:18:18,704
that has over 30% of the hash rate, 35%, something like this.
929
01:18:19,244 --> 01:18:24,244
And the thing is, that's not necessarily through anything malicious.
930
01:18:25,284 --> 01:18:27,944
Individual miners who have control of ASICs
931
01:18:27,944 --> 01:18:30,504
are choosing to mine with Foundry for various reasons.
932
01:18:30,504 --> 01:18:38,104
But it does mean that this one actor has about a third of the hash power of the entire network, and they control it.
933
01:18:38,224 --> 01:18:42,344
They make the block template that all of the miners hash against.
934
01:18:43,164 --> 01:18:51,344
And if you add the next two, three mining pools in terms of size, they're over 60%, right?
935
01:18:51,344 --> 01:19:08,324
And so you theoretically could have these few companies who control more of the majority of the hash rate all get together and say that, hey, we're not going to make blocks that include transactions from these addresses.
936
01:19:08,324 --> 01:19:11,424
For example, the censorship, actual censorship.
937
01:19:12,224 --> 01:19:24,024
Or they might say something like, yeah, we're just going to make sure that we win all the blocks from now on and we'll reorg the chain so that nobody else wins any blocks anymore.
938
01:19:24,344 --> 01:19:27,424
And that's what's possible with a 51% attack.
939
01:19:27,424 --> 01:19:38,704
It's expensive and it has to be sustained as well and would also cause major issues for the Bitcoin price, I think.
940
01:19:38,884 --> 01:19:53,164
And so one of the devil's advocates against mine decentralization being too big of an issue is that miners don't want to see their cash flow dry up and they're rational actors and things like this.
941
01:19:53,164 --> 01:20:02,644
But yeah, this is probably the structural thing, the biggest issue with Bitcoin right now,
942
01:20:02,744 --> 01:20:06,244
and decentralizing mining so that miners are building their own blocks,
943
01:20:06,564 --> 01:20:11,704
and no one pool has the ability to undertake these attacks.
944
01:20:11,904 --> 01:20:12,784
It's really important.
945
01:20:14,364 --> 01:20:18,884
Well, again, through one of these things with the BIP-110 fork and all this,
946
01:20:18,884 --> 01:20:36,704
If that fails, I do see a lot of the efforts towards mining decentralization might also, if not leave the network, have a lot of people who are not super happy and they might leave active Bitcoin contribution.
947
01:20:36,884 --> 01:20:37,904
And that wouldn't be good either.
948
01:20:38,124 --> 01:20:47,344
And so, yeah, it's just another one of these things where I see less of a disruption, less of an impact, more positives out of Bit.1.10 succeeding.
949
01:20:47,344 --> 01:20:55,024
but at the end of the day that that uh mining decentralization and making mining as decentralized
950
01:20:55,024 --> 01:21:00,664
as possible is is one of these things that is is pretty important these days and it is something
951
01:21:00,664 --> 01:21:08,144
that i think uh is very good for for bitcoiners to know about and and do what you can i mean i i
952
01:21:08,144 --> 01:21:17,644
have a couple of Bitcoin heaters here, which I think is, yeah, it's something. It's not a ton
953
01:21:17,644 --> 01:21:23,124
of hash rate. But these days, you can also rent hash power through various marketplaces that
954
01:21:23,124 --> 01:21:28,944
miners just make their hash available to whoever is willing to pay them the most. And if you point
955
01:21:28,944 --> 01:21:36,124
that towards a pool that lets you mine your own blocks, then you're decentralizing the network
956
01:21:36,124 --> 01:21:42,384
yourself so again there's always something you can do yeah absolutely i think i think that's a
957
01:21:42,384 --> 01:21:47,824
very key point there is always something you can do no matter kind of what situation or what negative
958
01:21:47,824 --> 01:21:54,624
things are happening in the bitcoin space there's always something you can do whether or not you can
959
01:21:54,624 --> 01:22:00,944
fully stop the whole thing you know there's always hope to be a part of something bigger to help the
960
01:22:00,944 --> 01:22:08,384
whole community. Yeah, I mean, individuals need to take action. There's only so much you can do,
961
01:22:08,484 --> 01:22:14,424
but there's always something you can do. So that's really the message that I hope everyone
962
01:22:14,424 --> 01:22:20,784
takes away from defending Bitcoin is that, yeah, in every aspect, it might be small,
963
01:22:20,784 --> 01:22:27,124
but there's always some action that you can take that you haven't thought of yet. And I mean,
964
01:22:27,124 --> 01:22:31,344
everyone's got to make their own determination when they're done, right?
965
01:22:32,564 --> 01:22:35,424
Security controls cost money, they cost time, they cost effort.
966
01:22:35,584 --> 01:22:39,964
So there is a point where the costs outweigh the benefits,
967
01:22:41,064 --> 01:22:43,344
and so you have to make your own choice yourself.
968
01:22:43,484 --> 01:22:46,724
But there is always something on the table that you can do.
969
01:22:46,824 --> 01:22:50,384
No one ever exhausts the security controls.
970
01:22:50,644 --> 01:22:55,324
And in terms of Bitcoin, it's also about how important is it to you, right?
971
01:22:55,324 --> 01:23:00,284
If you have only a little bit of Bitcoin and maybe you're just trying it out,
972
01:23:00,804 --> 01:23:05,304
yeah, you don't need to go and do everything that I'm recommending.
973
01:23:05,464 --> 01:23:09,544
But if you have a significant portion of your wealth in Bitcoin,
974
01:23:10,764 --> 01:23:12,264
seriously consider what you can do.
975
01:23:12,524 --> 01:23:13,124
Run a node.
976
01:23:14,764 --> 01:23:16,324
Try to get into some mining.
977
01:23:17,424 --> 01:23:20,444
Be involved in governance discussions, things like this.
978
01:23:21,004 --> 01:23:23,304
Be aware of what's going on with quantum.
979
01:23:23,304 --> 01:23:30,864
them yeah there's there's there's a lot you can do and it all comes down to how how important it
980
01:23:30,864 --> 01:23:38,164
is for you yeah absolutely but what about the kind of human side of security like all the scams
981
01:23:38,164 --> 01:23:44,584
phishing people getting socially engineered out of their coins i mean obviously younger people
982
01:23:44,584 --> 01:23:50,844
they kind of we're all online i mean everyone's really online and obviously people get dms from
983
01:23:50,844 --> 01:23:57,144
fake support accounts like all the time i mean from your cyber security background what are the
984
01:23:57,144 --> 01:24:03,364
psychological tricks attackers usually use and how do we kind of train ourselves to spot them
985
01:24:03,364 --> 01:24:11,344
yeah what's going on these days i mean there's a there's a ton of uh these these uh attacks going
986
01:24:11,344 --> 01:24:17,324
on right now to try and get access to people's social media accounts and and their funds um
987
01:24:17,324 --> 01:24:30,984
The biggest thing is that there's usually some kind of sense of urgency, right, that they want, whether it's a negative or a positive one, something like this.
988
01:24:32,884 --> 01:24:38,284
A negative is like, hey, you get an email from ledger support or hardware wallet support.
989
01:24:38,384 --> 01:24:42,384
I don't want to be that much of a, well, but ledgers had some issues.
990
01:24:42,384 --> 01:24:46,264
You get an email that says, hey, your funds might be at risk.
991
01:24:46,264 --> 01:24:50,084
Click this link and we'll get it all sorted out right.
992
01:24:50,704 --> 01:24:52,504
Just don't do it.
993
01:24:53,504 --> 01:24:56,484
Verify that it came from the right email address.
994
01:24:56,764 --> 01:24:58,824
That's always a thing.
995
01:24:59,484 --> 01:25:02,364
There's going to be something wrong with the email address.
996
01:25:02,444 --> 01:25:04,324
That won't be coming from ledger.com.
997
01:25:04,624 --> 01:25:06,764
Also, don't click any random links.
998
01:25:07,024 --> 01:25:11,864
Try to go to their website from some other way and they'll probably have a big banner.
999
01:25:11,864 --> 01:25:17,644
hey there's some issue go here for for steps to to solve the problem if there was actually
1000
01:25:17,644 --> 01:25:22,144
something legitimate but that wouldn't be the case in bitcoin no no one has ever your funds
1001
01:25:22,144 --> 01:25:27,264
aren't at risk unless you click this link that's only the case if you keep your bitcoin
1002
01:25:27,264 --> 01:25:35,244
on an exchange that then then maybe there's there's something to it but but uh yeah don't
1003
01:25:35,244 --> 01:25:40,564
click the link is is one of the things but if you get a message from somebody you you don't really
1004
01:25:40,564 --> 01:25:48,444
know who's got a public platform and they're asking for a call or whatever, or especially
1005
01:25:48,444 --> 01:25:49,564
if you know them personally, right?
1006
01:25:50,004 --> 01:25:54,904
Try to verify through another channel that this is actually them, right?
1007
01:25:54,904 --> 01:26:00,584
And some people have had their accounts hacked, their real account, and people don't know
1008
01:26:00,584 --> 01:26:01,724
about it, right?
1009
01:26:01,904 --> 01:26:07,544
And so you get a message, hey, it's been a while, let's catch up, right?
1010
01:26:07,544 --> 01:26:15,964
that can seem really normal and not out of the ordinary.
1011
01:26:16,244 --> 01:26:18,604
But if it's something you weren't expecting,
1012
01:26:18,824 --> 01:26:21,124
try to get a hold of them on another channel
1013
01:26:21,124 --> 01:26:24,224
and see if they can verify that,
1014
01:26:24,304 --> 01:26:26,604
oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, that was me.
1015
01:26:27,164 --> 01:26:28,304
It's been a while.
1016
01:26:28,304 --> 01:26:31,544
But most likely if they're sending you a calendar,
1017
01:26:32,024 --> 01:26:36,144
a scheduler invitation to get on a Zoom call,
1018
01:26:36,144 --> 01:26:43,764
probably this is not anything good if you do get into the zoom call if you do get into the zoom call
1019
01:26:43,764 --> 01:26:49,464
do not click the link that they send you in the middle of the zoom call that's what gets you um
1020
01:26:49,464 --> 01:26:55,024
i i've i've had plenty of these requests i've never gotten into the call in the first place
1021
01:26:55,024 --> 01:27:00,284
in fact i like to have a little fun with them they're mostly from north korea they might all
1022
01:27:00,284 --> 01:27:04,624
be from north korea actually the ones that are going around right now not all i'm not saying
1023
01:27:04,624 --> 01:27:11,304
all scams are but this current wave might all be from north korea um and yeah i've gotten grok to
1024
01:27:11,304 --> 01:27:18,684
to make some nice insults uh for me to to uh to their dear leader that i've pasted into the chat
1025
01:27:18,684 --> 01:27:27,404
and gotten instantly blocked for um i'm not saying do that but it can be fun um but but don't don't
1026
01:27:27,404 --> 01:27:32,844
get into the call in the first place. Like really try to verify that this is someone,
1027
01:27:34,264 --> 01:27:41,144
something real. And if it isn't, block them, report them and spread the word if it's someone
1028
01:27:41,144 --> 01:27:48,644
you know and care about, because it's never fun to get hacked and you feel terrible if someone
1029
01:27:48,644 --> 01:27:57,384
else falls for it from your profile. So help keep that from spreading. So those are the
1030
01:27:57,384 --> 01:28:05,604
the the big things just watch out for anyone trying to get you to click a link or um especially
1031
01:28:05,604 --> 01:28:11,144
get on these days get on a video call just don't do it verify through another channel
1032
01:28:11,144 --> 01:28:17,644
yeah absolutely but of course there's also the physical side the kind of real life like the
1033
01:28:17,644 --> 01:28:23,124
five dollar wrench attack like where someone kind of threatens you for your keys like how much should
1034
01:28:23,124 --> 01:28:28,784
normal person actually think about the physical security versus kind of digital are we like
1035
01:28:28,784 --> 01:28:36,184
overthinking the hackers and underthinking the guys at the door yeah well very good point and
1036
01:28:36,184 --> 01:28:43,624
this is where privacy comes in there's two aspects to privacy knowing that you hold bitcoin or crypto
1037
01:28:43,624 --> 01:28:49,204
because they don't care and everyone who's kind of public about bitcoin has kind of already made
1038
01:28:49,204 --> 01:28:56,384
that mistake. So that's not ideal. But then they need to know where you are, where you live,
1039
01:28:57,424 --> 01:29:04,904
where you spend lots of time. Some countries are safer than others. France is terrible at the
1040
01:29:04,904 --> 01:29:12,544
moment because they had a, well, the information of a bunch of their crypto holders was effectively
1041
01:29:12,544 --> 01:29:19,184
stolen and sold. So that's not good from their tax authorities. Sweden is also not a great place
1042
01:29:19,184 --> 01:29:23,904
to be at the moment. There are a lot of these gangs operating that target Bitcoin holders,
1043
01:29:24,024 --> 01:29:32,104
crypto holders. Honestly, though, crypto is a little more attractive than just Bitcoin. So right
1044
01:29:32,104 --> 01:29:37,384
now we have that going for us, kind of. Being Bitcoin only is a security control if you're not
1045
01:29:37,384 --> 01:29:43,864
involved in all of these kind of high profile communities and hold a bunch of ETH and whatever
1046
01:29:43,864 --> 01:29:51,124
other tokens and stuff, Bitcoin only might be less attractive. But yeah, just try and keep your
1047
01:29:51,124 --> 01:30:00,064
information off the internet if you can. Full names, addresses, whatever. LinkedIn and Facebook
1048
01:30:00,064 --> 01:30:07,004
are terrible for privacy. Try to lock those down if you can. Like these are ones where you're
1049
01:30:07,004 --> 01:30:12,784
showing your full name by default, right? Try to lock those down as you can. Make it so that
1050
01:30:12,784 --> 01:30:18,604
there's not um that people who you don't know um can't see everything about you especially your
1051
01:30:18,604 --> 01:30:27,024
location uh don't use your real name on x or your full name whatever uh again plenty of people have
1052
01:30:27,024 --> 01:30:34,044
kind of already made those uh those mistakes um but but whatever if you're if you're public in
1053
01:30:34,044 --> 01:30:40,564
bitcoin and kind of throwing it all uh in there that's that's a choice right but then just try
1054
01:30:40,564 --> 01:30:47,684
and keep everything else private, try and make it so that your home address, the places
1055
01:30:47,684 --> 01:30:51,964
you frequent aren't something that are widely known.
1056
01:30:52,824 --> 01:30:56,364
And then that reduces the risk significantly.
1057
01:30:56,584 --> 01:31:02,624
But another analogy I like to use is something like if you're being chased by a bear, you
1058
01:31:02,624 --> 01:31:05,064
don't need to be faster than the bear.
1059
01:31:05,064 --> 01:31:10,204
You need to be faster than the slowest person in your group.
1060
01:31:10,564 --> 01:31:20,064
right? So they are going to target people with a lot more Bitcoin, verifiably, than people who
1061
01:31:20,064 --> 01:31:28,024
just have a couple of million sats or whatever it is, even a couple of coins is not going to be so
1062
01:31:28,024 --> 01:31:32,644
attractive as someone who has 10 Bitcoin, 20 Bitcoin, 100 Bitcoin. So it's not that don't
1063
01:31:32,644 --> 01:31:41,144
worry and don't be prepared, but they're not coming after you yet. Then again, situational
1064
01:31:41,144 --> 01:31:48,204
awareness, being able to defend yourself if someone does come for you, that's stuff that's
1065
01:31:48,204 --> 01:31:54,124
worth knowing about and knowing how to do, but it's not the thing that should be top of everyone's
1066
01:31:54,124 --> 01:32:00,124
minds. You definitely don't need to be looking around every corner for some attacker, unless
1067
01:32:00,124 --> 01:32:05,744
you're just really bad about your privacy then you might have to worry and then you maybe should
1068
01:32:05,744 --> 01:32:12,284
move yeah absolutely i mean yeah it's all about just if you keep private in the first place you're
1069
01:32:12,284 --> 01:32:19,004
just low risk basically so even if you do have loads of coins i mean they're not going to know
1070
01:32:19,004 --> 01:32:24,664
no they won't be able to find you that's that's that's the point again highly recommend um
1071
01:32:24,664 --> 01:32:28,704
max's maxillabrand's practiceology of privacy if you really want a deep dive
1072
01:32:28,704 --> 01:32:33,644
Again, my chapter, it goes into this somewhat, but check out Max's book also.
1073
01:32:34,644 --> 01:32:35,444
Yeah, absolutely.
1074
01:32:36,364 --> 01:32:41,164
Moving on to kind of where you've been recently in Twitter.
1075
01:32:41,344 --> 01:32:46,404
I mean, you've obviously been in one of, you've been in the middle of one of the biggest arguments in Bitcoin lately.
1076
01:32:47,084 --> 01:32:52,384
And of course, your position in your own words is obviously Bitcoin is money, not data storage.
1077
01:32:52,384 --> 01:32:59,924
I mean, you've said block space is scarce and arbitrary data displaces money transactions, which makes Bitcoin worse as money.
1078
01:33:00,084 --> 01:33:05,264
So can you break that down for someone who basically has no idea what the fight is even about?
1079
01:33:06,504 --> 01:33:10,424
Yeah, there's so much nuance and complexity here.
1080
01:33:10,564 --> 01:33:12,304
I'll really do my best to break it down.
1081
01:33:12,304 --> 01:33:29,304
The basic idea is that arbitrary data, which I define as if you're putting data into a Bitcoin transaction that isn't helping to move Bitcoin from one address to another, that's arbitrary data.
1082
01:33:29,464 --> 01:33:35,704
That's putting something onto Bitcoin that has nothing to do with using Bitcoin as money.
1083
01:33:36,564 --> 01:33:41,204
And there have been a lot of different protocols that use this over the years.
1084
01:33:41,204 --> 01:33:47,184
Open timestamps is a really common one that some people are actually pretty pro.
1085
01:33:47,884 --> 01:33:52,284
The use of this, it creates a hash of a bit of data,
1086
01:33:52,704 --> 01:33:55,484
and then you can put that hash onto Bitcoin,
1087
01:33:55,684 --> 01:34:00,244
and then you essentially prove that the data you had actually existed at that time.
1088
01:34:00,644 --> 01:34:03,384
There's uses for that, but it's not monetary.
1089
01:34:03,624 --> 01:34:05,024
It doesn't improve.
1090
01:34:05,764 --> 01:34:08,464
It doesn't help facilitate Bitcoin as money.
1091
01:34:08,464 --> 01:34:11,604
It's using Bitcoin's block space for other things.
1092
01:34:12,244 --> 01:34:24,664
So my argument and others who are, yeah, similar mind, argue that these uses of Bitcoin actively make Bitcoin less good at being money.
1093
01:34:24,884 --> 01:34:32,244
And to explain my take on this, from the cybersecurity perspective, what I was talking about with availability,
1094
01:34:32,644 --> 01:34:38,224
the availability of the system also extends to how well the system is working.
1095
01:34:38,224 --> 01:34:39,384
It's not just on or off.
1096
01:34:39,784 --> 01:34:45,484
So if the performance of the system is degraded, that also counts as effectively an availability attack.
1097
01:34:46,124 --> 01:34:55,804
And when these arbitrary data systems were kind of in a bit of a frenzy in 2023, 2024, it really kicked off February 2023.
1098
01:34:56,104 --> 01:35:00,964
And there's a great website called WTF happened in February 2023.
1099
01:35:01,144 --> 01:35:03,064
I forget if it's Feb or February 2023.
1100
01:35:03,064 --> 01:35:07,404
But anyway, check it out for some information about this.
1101
01:35:07,404 --> 01:35:12,224
it's a parallel to WTF happened in 1971, which you might be familiar with.
1102
01:35:13,224 --> 01:35:19,304
But the whole thing there is that the fees on Bitcoin were astronomically high.
1103
01:35:19,304 --> 01:35:28,764
You would have to spend 50 euros, dollars, whatever currency to move, to make any Bitcoin transaction.
1104
01:35:28,924 --> 01:35:36,884
So unless you're moving thousands of euros or dollars, it's going to be way too expensive.
1105
01:35:36,884 --> 01:35:40,444
It's going to be more expensive than moving money in the normal system, right?
1106
01:35:40,464 --> 01:35:47,884
And this was all because of only people trying to put JPEGs and tokens and things like this on Bitcoin through these data protocols.
1107
01:35:48,724 --> 01:35:59,684
And so the thing with that is that, yes, these systems aren't, these arbitrary data things, they spend money to get into Bitcoin block space.
1108
01:35:59,684 --> 01:36:00,304
And that's true.
1109
01:36:00,304 --> 01:36:07,004
The fee is sort of what prevents them from kind of having unlimited resources to do this, right?
1110
01:36:07,024 --> 01:36:09,124
Eventually, they'll lose money theoretically.
1111
01:36:09,804 --> 01:36:14,364
But the point is they're making it worse for everyone else as long as they're doing that.
1112
01:36:15,184 --> 01:36:22,484
Every non-monetary transaction has a different set of incentives when applied to Bitcoin
1113
01:36:22,484 --> 01:36:29,424
than people who just want to send their sats to self-custody or send it to someone to make a purchase, right?
1114
01:36:29,424 --> 01:36:40,984
So whenever there are full blocks and those full blocks contain arbitrary data transactions, they are making Bitcoin more expensive to use for everyone else.
1115
01:36:41,064 --> 01:36:51,924
And I've started to describe it as a bit of a hidden tax on Bitcoin for monetary uses by the protocol supporting arbitrary data in a more explicit way.
1116
01:36:51,924 --> 01:37:00,004
and maybe to bring this a little bit to the bit.10 thing here this argument um the solution
1117
01:37:00,004 --> 01:37:08,804
offered by bit.10 is not perfect it's not stop data soft work it's reduced data temporary soft
1118
01:37:08,804 --> 01:37:16,824
work and it it applies a few protocol changes that effectively make it so that you can't embed
1119
01:37:16,824 --> 01:37:23,344
data in chunks of more than 256 bytes. Now you can embed more than one of these chunks,
1120
01:37:23,604 --> 01:37:29,524
but it does create some friction, it creates some limits, and it does mean that the protocol is
1121
01:37:29,524 --> 01:37:36,804
saying that, hey, okay, we're not going to just let you embed a four megabyte JPEG without doing
1122
01:37:36,804 --> 01:37:43,264
a little bit of extra work and paying a little bit more. So from my perspective, BIP-110 is quite
1123
01:37:43,264 --> 01:37:48,304
reasonable from that angle there are some trade-offs and that's another thing that that i get into in
1124
01:37:48,304 --> 01:37:53,344
defending bitcoin all the time that there are trade-offs to every security measure and here
1125
01:37:53,344 --> 01:37:59,444
this is where there is some genuine debate does bip 110 plan to or will it break
1126
01:37:59,444 --> 01:38:07,064
things too many things the answer is maybe there are some things that will get broken or need some
1127
01:38:07,064 --> 01:38:15,264
development work and as unfortunate as that is like it is it is a it is a trade-off right
1128
01:38:15,264 --> 01:38:24,024
i argue that it's a reasonable trade-off that setting constraints on what is possible in bitcoin
1129
01:38:24,024 --> 01:38:29,324
development is is actually a good thing it makes it so that bitcoin development doesn't get out of
1130
01:38:29,324 --> 01:38:36,024
hand and and that we don't lose control of the system to to people who find some newfangled way
1131
01:38:36,024 --> 01:38:38,684
of using Bitcoin block space
1132
01:38:38,684 --> 01:38:41,424
and making it so that people
1133
01:38:41,424 --> 01:38:42,784
who just want to use Bitcoin as money
1134
01:38:42,784 --> 01:38:44,304
that makes it harder, right?
1135
01:38:44,324 --> 01:38:47,324
So that's my entire argument this entire time
1136
01:38:47,324 --> 01:38:50,044
is just that it makes Bitcoin less good
1137
01:38:50,044 --> 01:38:52,024
at being a monetary system.
1138
01:38:52,784 --> 01:38:57,404
And maybe it's worth putting some changes
1139
01:38:57,404 --> 01:39:00,164
into the protocol at a consensus level
1140
01:39:00,164 --> 01:39:04,364
to at least reduce the ease
1141
01:39:04,364 --> 01:39:07,364
by which people can embed arbitrary data.
1142
01:39:07,944 --> 01:39:10,284
Now, you can disagree that that's necessary,
1143
01:39:10,624 --> 01:39:16,704
but I really do think that it's hard to justify Bitcoin being worth anything
1144
01:39:16,704 --> 01:39:18,384
if it's not money.
1145
01:39:19,384 --> 01:39:26,364
And Bitcoin, this deterministic decentralized database,
1146
01:39:26,504 --> 01:39:29,524
is one thing I've heard it described as something like this,
1147
01:39:29,524 --> 01:39:36,904
like a time-stamped database, something like this.
1148
01:39:37,044 --> 01:39:38,764
That just doesn't have any appeal to me.
1149
01:39:38,844 --> 01:39:39,844
That has no interest to me.
1150
01:39:39,884 --> 01:39:42,204
And maybe there's people in the development community
1151
01:39:42,204 --> 01:39:44,764
who find that fascinating.
1152
01:39:45,464 --> 01:39:47,464
But I'm in Bitcoin for the money,
1153
01:39:47,564 --> 01:39:50,064
and I'm in Bitcoin for fixing the money and fixing the world.
1154
01:39:50,244 --> 01:39:54,524
So that's why I've been vocal on my stance here.
1155
01:39:54,524 --> 01:39:59,124
I haven't been the most active cheerleader for Bit.110,
1156
01:39:59,524 --> 01:40:05,624
say. I've gone back and forth a little bit on whether to support or not actively, but I've
1157
01:40:05,624 --> 01:40:09,424
always been aligned with its goals. And I've always found its trade-offs to be reasonable,
1158
01:40:09,424 --> 01:40:19,404
even if I don't think the BIP is perfect. So I, again, say, make your own decisions. But my
1159
01:40:19,404 --> 01:40:26,104
view is that it's the best outcome for Bitcoin at the moment would be for BIP 110 to activate
1160
01:40:26,104 --> 01:40:33,184
smoothly and then there's a year where we observe the effects of that and go from there
1161
01:40:33,184 --> 01:40:40,424
yeah absolutely i think that's a that's an interesting take and i uh yeah i i mostly do
1162
01:40:40,424 --> 01:40:47,244
agree because yeah i i don't i don't uh see the appeal and i i find it very hard to kind of
1163
01:40:47,244 --> 01:40:54,264
sympathize with slowing down basically basically slowing down and making everything more expensive
1164
01:40:54,264 --> 01:41:03,664
for everyone. I don't see many positives to that. And I feel like the argument for doing it is
1165
01:41:03,664 --> 01:41:10,964
extremely weak. Well, and I'll be clear too, that it's impossible to stop data embedding on Bitcoin
1166
01:41:10,964 --> 01:41:19,604
entirely. And we need to be honest about that, that that is also true. And some of the means of
1167
01:41:19,604 --> 01:41:26,244
embedding arbitrary data are more harmful by other metrics. There are ways of embedding data
1168
01:41:26,244 --> 01:41:38,064
that use fake public keys, which create a UTXO, which every node has to hold in relatively quick
1169
01:41:38,064 --> 01:41:47,724
storage. I've been corrected on this by one of the developers who has been working on UTXO
1170
01:41:47,724 --> 01:41:59,644
management and the initial download in Bitcoin Core. And maybe this is a spot where I can say
1171
01:41:59,644 --> 01:42:06,284
that there's really good work being done by people at Bitcoin Core, good developers, good work to
1172
01:42:06,284 --> 01:42:13,404
solve problems in a technical way. And I don't discount any of that work at all. And I think
1173
01:42:13,404 --> 01:42:16,444
it's very good to make technical improvements.
1174
01:42:17,404 --> 01:42:22,504
And again, there's sort of a funny contradiction in ideas.
1175
01:42:22,724 --> 01:42:25,524
If we're solving this UTXO problem
1176
01:42:25,524 --> 01:42:28,324
through a technical means
1177
01:42:28,324 --> 01:42:32,644
to make it so that you can download a Bitcoin,
1178
01:42:32,804 --> 01:42:35,424
you could start up a Bitcoin node faster,
1179
01:42:35,684 --> 01:42:38,284
even if we have a growing UTXO set,
1180
01:42:39,064 --> 01:42:41,844
then why is it so big of a problem
1181
01:42:41,844 --> 01:42:45,244
for data embedding to happen with UTXOs.
1182
01:42:45,524 --> 01:42:46,944
And there's other things.
1183
01:42:47,164 --> 01:42:50,164
There's a lot of back and forth to be had here.
1184
01:42:50,904 --> 01:42:53,744
But the point is, two points.
1185
01:42:53,804 --> 01:42:55,844
We can't stop arbitrary data on Bitcoin.
1186
01:42:56,204 --> 01:43:03,064
And the development community is really doing fantastic things for Bitcoin.
1187
01:43:03,964 --> 01:43:07,324
Where I just see is, again, kind of back to the disconnect,
1188
01:43:07,324 --> 01:43:13,564
that the Bitcoin development community might not be taking into full consideration
1189
01:43:13,564 --> 01:43:22,504
the economic effects of Bitcoin in the world and the preferences of their user base.
1190
01:43:22,504 --> 01:43:32,264
I was on a panel at Bitcoin++ in Vienna with Chris from CEDOR and Matt Corral and Knut.
1191
01:43:33,084 --> 01:43:37,004
Sorry, one other guy. I keep forgetting his name. My apologies.
1192
01:43:37,324 --> 01:43:54,284
And Matt Corral is a core developer, and he put forward and agreed that 99% of Bitcoin users just want to take Bitcoin into self-custody and use it to pay for stuff.
1193
01:43:54,284 --> 01:44:03,844
Like, all of the use cases that people are trying to develop are for a really small minority of users, right?
1194
01:44:03,844 --> 01:44:09,924
And so I really do believe that optimizing the Bitcoin process
1195
01:44:09,979 --> 01:44:20,699
recall for making it easier to take self-custody and use as a daily medium of exchange are the
1196
01:44:20,699 --> 01:44:28,919
priorities and i just see bitcoin development aiming at other things aiming for extensible
1197
01:44:28,919 --> 01:44:36,239
scripting and other things that that have resulted in unintended consequences like with the the
1198
01:44:36,239 --> 01:44:45,339
taproot situation so this is just where i i advocate that maybe the bitcoin network as a whole
1199
01:44:45,339 --> 01:44:52,419
the plebs the node runners whatever make their voice heard and say i don't care about any of
1200
01:44:52,419 --> 01:44:58,279
that other stuff i just want bitcoin as money and let's work on making it better money please but
1201
01:44:58,279 --> 01:45:03,319
we don't need to turn Bitcoin into a crypto casino.
1202
01:45:04,519 --> 01:45:09,079
And again, my last caveat to this is just that we can't stop it,
1203
01:45:09,539 --> 01:45:11,759
but we can set some limits.
1204
01:45:12,339 --> 01:45:18,179
And maybe it's not going to be even like super effective at reducing spam,
1205
01:45:18,299 --> 01:45:20,439
but at least we've kind of taken a stand.
1206
01:45:20,439 --> 01:45:22,479
And the limits are real.
1207
01:45:22,739 --> 01:45:23,899
The limits are real.
1208
01:45:23,899 --> 01:45:28,119
it means that data can't be embedded in contiguous chunks,
1209
01:45:28,259 --> 01:45:31,279
which is really important to a large percentage of the user base.
1210
01:45:31,579 --> 01:45:34,019
So that's the situation.
1211
01:45:34,239 --> 01:45:35,039
It's complicated.
1212
01:45:35,279 --> 01:45:35,919
It's tricky.
1213
01:45:36,879 --> 01:45:37,839
It's messy.
1214
01:45:38,499 --> 01:45:42,439
But I hope that there is a good resolution
1215
01:45:42,439 --> 01:45:48,439
and we are able to come out of this in the next months
1216
01:45:48,439 --> 01:45:52,619
and focus on Bitcoin adoption.
1217
01:45:52,619 --> 01:45:55,359
I'm very excited to be getting back to that
1218
01:45:55,359 --> 01:45:56,999
yeah I'm sure
1219
01:45:56,999 --> 01:45:58,939
I mean I'm sure it's going to come out
1220
01:45:58,939 --> 01:46:01,139
great solution it's all going to be positive
1221
01:46:01,139 --> 01:46:03,399
I'm hoping that happens
1222
01:46:03,399 --> 01:46:05,399
but yeah it's an interesting
1223
01:46:05,399 --> 01:46:07,279
time to be involved in
1224
01:46:07,279 --> 01:46:08,099
Bitcoin and
1225
01:46:08,099 --> 01:46:09,499
very
1226
01:46:09,499 --> 01:46:12,239
it's almost surreal
1227
01:46:12,239 --> 01:46:14,799
but yeah I mean especially
1228
01:46:14,799 --> 01:46:16,819
I find it kind of interesting from
1229
01:46:16,819 --> 01:46:19,099
your end with the whole
1230
01:46:19,099 --> 01:46:20,779
cyber security
1231
01:46:20,779 --> 01:46:23,159
looking at it through that lens.
1232
01:46:23,259 --> 01:46:24,879
I mean, you've said, obviously,
1233
01:46:25,079 --> 01:46:27,559
you viewed spam on Bitcoin as a bug
1234
01:46:27,559 --> 01:46:29,539
and a vulnerability since 2023.
1235
01:46:29,979 --> 01:46:33,639
So that's not just something like you're kind of annoyed by.
1236
01:46:33,639 --> 01:46:37,599
It's proper, like it needs to stop.
1237
01:46:37,839 --> 01:46:41,899
And why does the kind of security mindset
1238
01:46:41,899 --> 01:46:44,879
lead you to see it as a genuine threat
1239
01:46:44,879 --> 01:46:47,939
rather than just harmless graffiti on the blockchain?
1240
01:46:47,939 --> 01:47:02,179
Yeah, well, it comes back to that availability angle, right? And the other point is that the current wave of arbitrary data is basically exploiting these two specific vulnerabilities.
1241
01:47:02,179 --> 01:47:15,559
And I maintain and I make the case in defending Bitcoin that it's just simply good cybersecurity practice to acknowledge that these are vulnerabilities. It's the same thing as just being honest about everything.
1242
01:47:15,559 --> 01:47:18,979
We don't put our – it's not good to put your head in the sand, right?
1243
01:47:19,359 --> 01:47:29,179
And the definition of a security vulnerability really is that there is some weakness that a threat actor could exploit.
1244
01:47:29,799 --> 01:47:31,739
That's what creates the threat.
1245
01:47:32,099 --> 01:47:36,439
The vulnerability exists and is being actively exploited.
1246
01:47:36,619 --> 01:47:40,879
Now, what is the impact of that exploit?
1247
01:47:41,499 --> 01:47:43,699
Well, it's not huge.
1248
01:47:43,699 --> 01:47:46,039
And I mean, I admit that freely.
1249
01:47:46,439 --> 01:47:50,839
Arbitrary data is not something that is catastrophic to Bitcoin.
1250
01:47:50,979 --> 01:47:51,859
It's not existential.
1251
01:47:52,439 --> 01:47:59,699
But I do think that we might have lost quite a bit of adoption in that 2023, 2024, when
1252
01:47:59,699 --> 01:48:07,159
people were hearing that, oh yeah, Bitcoin costs $50 to transact now, right?
1253
01:48:07,519 --> 01:48:11,999
I mean, the Bitcoin price was pretty disappointing to a lot of people over the last few years
1254
01:48:11,999 --> 01:48:19,959
worth of cycles, who knows what adoption we lost through arbitrary data being in a frenzy, right?
1255
01:48:20,359 --> 01:48:26,759
So it's complicated. But by the cybersecurity definition, these things are vulnerabilities.
1256
01:48:27,099 --> 01:48:33,599
They deserve to be vulnerabilities. And if certain core developers argue that these aren't
1257
01:48:33,599 --> 01:48:38,879
vulnerabilities and they shouldn't be considered vulnerabilities, I really do go out and say that,
1258
01:48:38,879 --> 01:48:43,339
hey, I don't think you're doing good cybersecurity practice.
1259
01:48:43,519 --> 01:48:46,179
And I say that as an industry professional.
1260
01:48:46,959 --> 01:48:51,919
And at least listen and acknowledge that this is something that exists.
1261
01:48:52,519 --> 01:48:56,099
And you can choose to simply accept the risk.
1262
01:48:56,259 --> 01:48:56,939
That's an option.
1263
01:48:57,899 --> 01:49:14,017
Bitcoin Core has largely accepted these vulnerabilities and these risks that come from them as being okay But if you ignore that the risk exists altogether you deny it that you deny that this is a vulnerability
1264
01:49:14,357 --> 01:49:15,257
that this is a risk.
1265
01:49:15,737 --> 01:49:19,017
To me, that is just sticking your head in the sand
1266
01:49:19,017 --> 01:49:21,457
and ignoring something real.
1267
01:49:21,777 --> 01:49:25,557
And the consequences of that have been hard to predict,
1268
01:49:25,977 --> 01:49:27,817
largely on the social layer.
1269
01:49:28,417 --> 01:49:31,517
And I don't think anyone saw that coming.
1270
01:49:31,517 --> 01:49:35,657
So ignoring risk is bad. That's my bottom line there.
1271
01:49:36,497 --> 01:49:38,257
Yeah, absolutely. I completely agree.
1272
01:49:38,417 --> 01:49:44,397
And it was, as I was saying earlier, ignoring that risk leads to worse consequences later on down the road.
1273
01:49:45,797 --> 01:49:49,517
Exactly. So I think I think where I would.
1274
01:49:50,917 --> 01:50:00,037
That's what I would most leave people with is that that try to be vigilant and eyes wide open.
1275
01:50:00,037 --> 01:50:06,577
this isn't something you have to be scared about all the time it's not like it's not like being
1276
01:50:06,577 --> 01:50:12,157
aware of cyber security is something that you have to keep in your mind constantly but it's
1277
01:50:12,157 --> 01:50:18,637
basically a just a consequence of existing on the internet and so holding bitcoin and existing with
1278
01:50:18,637 --> 01:50:25,557
bitcoin is the same thing you just really should be aware of this stuff so that if something goes
1279
01:50:25,557 --> 01:50:32,437
wrong or you see something that isn't right, you can notice and you can take some action.
1280
01:50:33,077 --> 01:50:38,437
And that's all it's about. And I will also say that I'm planning on making a lot of resources
1281
01:50:38,437 --> 01:50:47,497
available on DefendingBitcoin.com for free to map this stuff out and make most of the information
1282
01:50:47,497 --> 01:50:54,197
just available, widely available. If you want to support me, buy a copy of my book. But otherwise,
1283
01:50:54,197 --> 01:51:00,797
the information is there for you and it's supposed to be so that's um that's what i want to to
1284
01:51:00,797 --> 01:51:09,917
contribute yeah absolutely guys everyone watching go buy luke's book i mean yeah it's it's it's
1285
01:51:09,917 --> 01:51:15,497
definitely necessary especially for the future generations i mean these threats are going to be
1286
01:51:15,497 --> 01:51:22,397
a lot more prevalent in the future and if of course even for your child i mean you become
1287
01:51:22,397 --> 01:51:24,297
You became a dad a couple of years ago.
1288
01:51:24,397 --> 01:51:28,337
I mean, does having a kid change kind of how you think about Bitcoin?
1289
01:51:28,557 --> 01:51:33,537
Like, obviously, the whole low time preference building for the future, of course, for him.
1290
01:51:33,997 --> 01:51:38,477
What kind of world are you trying to actually give your child?
1291
01:51:39,717 --> 01:51:44,657
Well, it didn't change a ton in terms of my thinking exactly, but it definitely made everything more real.
1292
01:51:44,657 --> 01:51:51,017
And I mean, yeah, I'm a huge, huge fan of having kids.
1293
01:51:51,897 --> 01:52:03,077
And yeah, if you can, make sure that you're bringing them into a world that you would like to live in.
1294
01:52:03,137 --> 01:52:05,837
And I mean that on a local level, right?
1295
01:52:06,177 --> 01:52:11,477
It's not good to have instability or chaos in your home life, your personal life.
1296
01:52:11,517 --> 01:52:13,617
It's good to have the right partner, right?
1297
01:52:13,617 --> 01:52:21,117
and and yeah so so my my thinking didn't change a ton but it made it all a lot more real a lot
1298
01:52:21,117 --> 01:52:28,137
more focused to a certain extent my life is simpler now in that i have a lot of constraints
1299
01:52:28,137 --> 01:52:36,897
like i i have to not have to but but um yeah i'm not available um when it when i'm taking care of
1300
01:52:36,897 --> 01:52:42,237
of him right putting him down to bed this this sort of thing and that's that's great because i i
1301
01:52:42,237 --> 01:52:49,537
love doing that. I love that time. And so, yeah, life is simpler and all of this is a little more
1302
01:52:49,537 --> 01:52:55,657
real. But my thinking with Bitcoin hasn't changed at all. It's just maybe a little more focused.
1303
01:52:55,817 --> 01:53:03,057
That's all. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, well, I think what a lot of the younger generations in
1304
01:53:03,057 --> 01:53:09,617
my generation would want to know is how can you between, you know, being a dad, between the book,
1305
01:53:09,617 --> 01:53:14,997
the podcast, the publishing company, the conferences, how do you not burn out? What's
1306
01:53:14,997 --> 01:53:21,357
your kind of actual approach to energy focus and staying healthy while doing that much? Because
1307
01:53:21,357 --> 01:53:27,557
obviously my generation talks a lot more about kind of burnouts and especially emotional burnout.
1308
01:53:27,757 --> 01:53:32,537
I think we'd kind of genuinely learn from hearing how you manage it.
1309
01:53:32,537 --> 01:53:42,637
finding the right motivation. That's all it's been about for me. And I mean,
1310
01:53:43,417 --> 01:53:52,157
some of the voices that really helped me when I was an early adult were Jordan Peterson,
1311
01:53:53,537 --> 01:54:16,836
Joe Rogan Jocko Willink I don know if you heard of him a Navy SEAL guy who wrote a couple of great books on leadership and discipline Jordan Peterson was the big one for me Really helped to focus me in terms of what in general people are aiming for
1312
01:54:16,896 --> 01:54:17,875
What makes us tick?
1313
01:54:18,816 --> 01:54:21,675
What does meaning really look like?
1314
01:54:21,675 --> 01:54:27,536
I did a series with Robert Breedlove on Jordan Peterson's book, Maps of Meaning.
1315
01:54:27,536 --> 01:54:41,016
And to a certain extent, that was like a chapter closing for me because I found Bitcoin through Rob mentioning Jordan Peterson's Maps of Meaning on the Lex Friedman podcast.
1316
01:54:41,295 --> 01:54:46,956
And then a few years later, I'm talking about that topic with Rob Breedlove.
1317
01:54:47,136 --> 01:54:50,536
And that's just another one of those things of just keep saying yes, keep saying yes.
1318
01:54:50,696 --> 01:54:52,636
But find what drives you.
1319
01:54:52,855 --> 01:54:53,696
Find something important.
1320
01:54:53,855 --> 01:54:55,076
Find something worth doing.
1321
01:54:55,076 --> 01:55:04,316
when I'm idle it's it's to relax and unwind you know listening to music or
1322
01:55:04,316 --> 01:55:11,756
spending time with with family or or whatever it is it's relaxing is is important too you
1323
01:55:11,756 --> 01:55:19,316
you need to do that but but that's all to kind of recharge and and figure out what I can do
1324
01:55:19,316 --> 01:55:25,475
next. And, uh, uh, yeah, the juggle is hard. Sometimes I, and now I have to say no to things.
1325
01:55:25,475 --> 01:55:32,435
Now I have to say no to things and learn to do that too. Um, the, the contradictory advice will
1326
01:55:32,435 --> 01:55:37,756
be say yes to everything until it becomes too much, something like that. And then,
1327
01:55:38,256 --> 01:55:43,196
then when you have the good problem to have of too many things to say yes to,
1328
01:55:43,196 --> 01:55:55,816
focus on what's a priority for you and and what helps you build your best life focus on the things
1329
01:55:55,816 --> 01:56:05,435
you're best at too because in this this world of of ai and so much competition you being the best
1330
01:56:05,435 --> 01:56:12,576
you that you can be is the most value you can give to everyone in the world if uh it doesn't
1331
01:56:12,576 --> 01:56:19,536
matter if there's someone out there who's better at podcasting or better at music or whatever it is.
1332
01:56:19,636 --> 01:56:25,415
It's still better for you to spend your time doing the things that you're best at, because
1333
01:56:25,415 --> 01:56:36,115
you can save them time. There was a way of looking at this, like the best person in the world.
1334
01:56:36,115 --> 01:56:40,675
So, okay, say that Elon Musk is also just an amazing chef.
1335
01:56:41,136 --> 01:56:52,916
Like he can cook meals extremely well, like better than anyone in the whole world on top of being, you know, a nuclear scientist and blah, blah, blah, Tesla.
1336
01:56:53,896 --> 01:57:05,095
It's a better use of time for someone whose best thing is being a really amazing chef making all of his meals for him so that he can focus his time on those things that he's best at.
1337
01:57:05,095 --> 01:57:06,316
It's division of labor.
1338
01:57:07,355 --> 01:57:14,115
And yeah, basically being as good as you can be at the things that you're best at is the best way for you to contribute to the world.
1339
01:57:15,715 --> 01:57:17,795
And I mean that sort of objectively.
1340
01:57:18,055 --> 01:57:25,975
Like it's how humanity can optimize itself is by helping everyone to find the thing that they're best at, the niche.
1341
01:57:26,776 --> 01:57:32,256
So find the thing that motivates you and find the thing that you enjoy that provides value to others.
1342
01:57:32,256 --> 01:57:41,295
because maybe the biggest fallacy that I heard when I was kind of in school
1343
01:57:41,295 --> 01:57:48,795
and that I've heard people talk about is that just go to school for what you like,
1344
01:57:48,956 --> 01:57:50,735
what you love, what your passion is, whatever.
1345
01:57:51,615 --> 01:57:54,975
But if that isn't something that other people find valuable,
1346
01:57:55,435 --> 01:57:56,816
you're not going to be able to make a living
1347
01:57:56,816 --> 01:58:01,816
and you're not going to be able to enjoy life
1348
01:58:02,355 --> 01:58:04,615
in the same kind of way as this.
1349
01:58:05,416 --> 01:58:08,816
Very, very few struggling artists actually make it, you know.
1350
01:58:09,316 --> 01:58:13,615
And so find a way to provide value to others
1351
01:58:13,615 --> 01:58:18,636
and then you can eventually afford to structure your life
1352
01:58:18,636 --> 01:58:20,335
in a way that you can do the things that you love
1353
01:58:20,335 --> 01:58:23,316
or maybe you find a way to enjoy the things
1354
01:58:23,316 --> 01:58:26,335
that you do to provide value to others.
1355
01:58:26,816 --> 01:58:33,396
yeah absolutely i think i think that's also one of the easiest ways you can get into bitcoin is
1356
01:58:33,396 --> 01:58:40,475
finding your passion and keep working at it until you're good at it and then bring it into bitcoin
1357
01:58:40,475 --> 01:58:48,136
because you know it's a it's a it's a new enough space that not every kind of uh different
1358
01:58:48,136 --> 01:58:51,375
uh hobby is kind of filled
1359
01:58:51,375 --> 01:59:08,594
sure yeah and everyone has something to to contribute exactly and there are ways to to bring people to all walks of life so do do what you you can do
1360
01:59:08,594 --> 01:59:14,274
and not every company needs to be a bitcoin company or not every individual effort needs
1361
01:59:14,274 --> 01:59:20,634
to be a bitcoin effort but if you uh if you provide goods and services to anyone except
1362
01:59:20,634 --> 01:59:26,094
bitcoin for those goods and services that's the easiest thing you can do yeah absolutely
1363
01:59:26,094 --> 01:59:31,594
completely agree okay now we're gonna go into a kind of quick fire question round
1364
01:59:31,594 --> 01:59:37,874
sounds good okay all right first question bitcoin in one word hope
1365
01:59:37,874 --> 01:59:46,734
fiat in one word evil favorite chapter of your book that you wrote
1366
01:59:46,734 --> 01:59:56,554
11 arbitrary data okay uh most underrated bitcoin on twitter right now
1367
01:59:57,234 --> 02:00:03,314
oh that's a hard one uh underrated
1368
02:00:03,314 --> 02:00:14,774
uh i am on with so many people um
1369
02:00:14,774 --> 02:00:18,834
hunter beast crypto quick
1370
02:00:18,834 --> 02:00:25,634
awesome okay uh most overrated narrative in bitcoin right now
1371
02:00:25,634 --> 02:00:32,854
bitcoin treasury companies yeah if you could orange peel one celebrity overnight who would
1372
02:00:32,854 --> 02:00:40,694
it be oh yeah i've had this question before who would i go with now uh well celebrity
1373
02:00:40,694 --> 02:00:45,434
Christopher Nolan would be cool
1374
02:00:45,434 --> 02:00:47,194
because we have all these people talking about
1375
02:00:47,194 --> 02:00:49,334
this Odyssey movie and stuff and think he's
1376
02:00:49,334 --> 02:00:51,134
the best director ever and I think
1377
02:00:51,134 --> 02:00:53,414
yeah, that would be cool to
1378
02:00:53,414 --> 02:00:54,774
maybe solve some of these
1379
02:00:54,774 --> 02:00:57,354
woke stuff
1380
02:00:57,354 --> 02:00:59,114
in Hollywood. He'd be pretty powerful
1381
02:00:59,114 --> 02:01:01,394
there. Yeah, that'd be awesome.
1382
02:01:01,654 --> 02:01:03,614
Yeah. Finish this sentence.
1383
02:01:03,934 --> 02:01:04,874
Fiat ruins
1384
02:01:04,874 --> 02:01:05,994
everything.
1385
02:01:07,154 --> 02:01:09,194
Bitcoin fixes everything.
1386
02:01:09,194 --> 02:01:17,574
there we go lovely thank you very much and um now we're gonna get on to the section that i said about
1387
02:01:17,574 --> 02:01:25,254
earlier um so i'm gonna ask you kind of the famous question i'll ask everyone this question
1388
02:01:25,254 --> 02:01:32,874
and luke could you give me one bit of information about you about bitcoin about anything that is
1389
02:01:32,874 --> 02:01:40,894
just unknown to my audience and your audience uh so i thought about this for a bit i played a 10
1390
02:01:40,894 --> 02:01:49,294
minute metal song in a church and not a christian metal song when i was still an evangelical christian
1391
02:01:49,294 --> 02:01:57,174
because i uh wanted to be uh cool and edgy it was a sadness and hate by winter sun uh and i did it
1392
02:01:57,174 --> 02:02:07,174
solo just me singing and playing guitar and nobody liked it except my now wife she was there
1393
02:02:07,174 --> 02:02:15,034
was there any recording of it no thankfully oh oh we could have seen it but yeah well thank you
1394
02:02:15,034 --> 02:02:19,994
that i mean that's a that's an awesome answer incredible um thank you so much for coming on
1395
02:02:19,994 --> 02:02:25,894
orangeville order i mean honestly this has been a really eye-opening episode and where can people
1396
02:02:25,894 --> 02:02:29,714
find you? Where can people find the book and basically everything that you're building?
1397
02:02:30,354 --> 02:02:36,274
Yeah, thanks a lot. Well, my name everywhere, which is a bad security practice, but it is what
1398
02:02:36,274 --> 02:02:45,054
it is. Luke DeWolf on X, LinkedIn. I'm primal.net slash Luke also. So I've got that Noster domain
1399
02:02:45,054 --> 02:02:50,674
space taken up there. You can find everything about Defending Bitcoin at defendingbitcoin.com.
1400
02:02:50,774 --> 02:02:55,794
You can also find everything about me from that address. So defendingbitcoin.com is probably
1401
02:02:55,794 --> 02:03:02,574
the easiest place so thomas thanks a lot for having me this has been a fun conversation and
1402
02:03:02,574 --> 02:03:07,494
yeah good luck with everything you're doing as well this is a really fantastic initiative to
1403
02:03:07,494 --> 02:03:15,014
to reach out to people of your age group and well everyone as you said yeah absolutely thank you so
1404
02:03:15,014 --> 02:03:19,954
much yeah absolutely great episode of course we'll put all of your links down in the description below
1405
02:03:19,954 --> 02:03:25,174
if you're watching on youtube smash the subscribe button obviously if you're listening on spotify
1406
02:03:25,174 --> 02:03:31,414
give a five star rating it helps with the algorithm helps push out to more people and
1407
02:03:31,414 --> 02:03:36,814
basically anyone who kind of needs it if this episode opened your eyes even a little bit just
1408
02:03:36,814 --> 02:03:41,534
share it to someone share it to a friend share it to your brother i mean that is really how we
1409
02:03:41,534 --> 02:03:46,814
orange pill the world one person at a time remember of course our mission is to orange
1410
02:03:46,814 --> 02:03:53,454
pill every young person on the planet stack stats stack knowledge stack freedom and we'll see you
1411
02:03:53,454 --> 02:03:55,394
in the next episode of the Orange Pill Order.