The Hidden Skill Behind Great Ops Leaders: Learning to Love Conflict with Anna Lecat

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Hello, everyone.
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Welcome to another episode of OpsCast, brought to you by MarketingOps.com, powered by all the MoPros out there.
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I am your host, Michael Hartman.
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Today we're going a bit outside of the typical playbook for our show, but in a way, I think it will resonate with everyone who's who's been listening, uh, or at least anyone who's working in operations, especially marketing ops.
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As you know, if you're in marketing ops, rev ops, or really any kind of ops role, you're constantly operating in the middle between marketing and sales, leadership and execution, strategy and reality.
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And with that comes something we don't often talk enough about, which is conflict.
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So not just difficult conversations, but real tension, misaligned incentives, different languages across teams, especially if you get international competing priorities and moments where it feels like you're stuck in the middle of it all.
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So my guest today is Anna Lakat, CEO and founder of Bridging Global and author of the soon-to-be-released book Loving Conflict.
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By the time this goes out, I think it will be out published.
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So we'll share a link to that.
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Anna has spent over 25 years leading multicultural teams and working across global organizations, and her work focuses on how we can move forward from avoiding conflict, move from avoiding conflict to actually using it to build trust, alignment, and better outcomes.
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Today's conversation is about uh a skill that might be more important than any tool, system, or framework, learning how to navigate conflict in a way that makes you a more effective operator and leader.
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So, Anna, welcome to the show.
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Thank you so much for having me.
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Yeah.
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So uh so this is one of them.
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We always love having international guests, and I think yours is an interesting one.
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We'll maybe we'll get into your story, but you were in France, now Paris, right?
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But you were Ukrainian but lived in China.
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If I did I get all that right?
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Well, I was born in Ukraine and I left for China at 17, then I moved to the United States.
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I lived in San Francisco for 12 years, and this is my third immigration to Paris, France.
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Nice.
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Okay, so we love that.
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So like I think I I think I've I've I've worked with people globally, but I haven't lived in all those places.
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So I it's always interesting for me to get that perspective.
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But I you know, so your book is called going to be called Loving Conflict.
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Um, I think you showed it, showed me the cover, so we'll I don't know if you want to share that on the screen, you won't see, but um uh yeah, there you go.
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Um and I this is an idea that I think resonates with me a lot.
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So people who listen to me, I've I've I think that's a big part of being, especially in leadership roles where you've got to deal with conflict and competing priorities and things like that.
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But your core idea, loving conflict, I think is an interesting one.
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So for a lot of people in you know, generally, but in these optional roles in particular, it conflict is something they try to avoid, right?
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A lot of people try to avoid it.
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So when you say loving conflict, what do you mean by that?
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And why do you think most people try to avoid it and get that wrong from your perspective?
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Well, first of all, I think that conflict is a feature of any relationship, personal relationship or business relationship.
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And if we are not having if we are not clear that there is a conflict, it means we're avoiding it and we're trying not to notice it.
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There's always going to be conflict because uh we are different.
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We have different beliefs, different uh brilliance, cultures.
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Even if we come from the same city and born on the same street, we are different in the way of how our parents brought us up, right?
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Um, or what the experiences we encountered.
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Yeah.
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And so uh why we avoid conflict is because we are brought up that way.
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We are all told that loving someone means keeping the peace.
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Uh, that uh we are told from early on just uh avoid it, uh be nice to each other.
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And we are not taught how to do it well.
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And so when we do end up conflicting with someone, we do it badly because we don't have the skills, and then uh we lose the relationship.
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And so we learn, okay, if I have a conflict, if I bring up a conflict with my best friend when I'm six or ten years old, and they leave me, they they break up with me, I'll never do it again.
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I'll never, we will decide that it's because of us bringing up the conflict, and I will never do it again.
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And what I say, instead, let's learn how to conflict better.
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Let's work on those skills so that we bring it up because we know that uh every time, all of us, we we intuitively know that if we bring it up well and we resolve the conflict, or we we just we we talk about it, it builds trust, it brings builds connection, and then there is a collaboration and uh continuous attachment possible in those relationships, business or personal.
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Yeah.
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It's interesting.
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Um, I can't remember where I saw this, but I saw somebody describe uh I think it was like a silly Instagram reel, but it was something about someone was being asked, like, how have yeah, like a grandchild asking grandparents, like, how have you been married so long?
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Right.
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And it was interesting, it was talking about really, it wasn't just one long relationship, right?
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It was multiple relationships because people were changing and evolving.
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And it feels like, you know, conflict is going to be natural as if you're not evolving at the same pace, or you like so I mean, is that also a part of it too?
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Is it like it sets you up to be able to navigate some of those changes as your relationship changes?
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Well, it sets us up to have a communication, correct a right communication, open communication, sincere communication, so that when the relationship changes, when we change, which we change every day.
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Every morning I wake, oh, but I'm a different person.
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So so are you, right?
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And so we change every day.
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We need to update each other on our changes every day.
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That's why it's important that I talk a lot about uh knowing ourselves, checking in with ourselves, scanning our bodies, knowing where our bodies and what we are feeling and what we're experiencing today at every moment, so that then we can translate ourselves to other people and update them on our changes so they don't need to guess because people do not read our minds.
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Right?
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And so we'd love to love to, and it's so romantic, and we are told, you know, so so many stories are oh, he's reading my mind, right?
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And no, no, it's just a coincidence.
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Right.
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So broke your clocks right twice a year twice a day, right?
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Exactly, exactly.
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And so, and especially when our life changes, uh, and we we grow out of something and we go into a different life stage, or in the company, company gets bigger, we go through the merger, right?
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Uh may major client onboarded, offboarded, uh, change the team.
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These are all changes that impact us, and as such, might lead to conflicts unless we spell each other, spell ourselves to others clearly.
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Yeah.
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That is a good that the idea of as as organizations grow and change, I think that does inevitably lead to even if you had a good relationship, right?
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Um, it can lead to to changes, like people handle stress and risk and all those things differently.
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And so when that happens, it would be natural.
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So one of the things that was interesting to me when we first were connected is that it, you know, I believe that this is an important skill to learn too.
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And I'd I think a lot of people would call it a soft skill, right?
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And I hate I'd really try to avoid that because it's just a skill in my mind, right?
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It's like anything else could be learned and you can become competent in it.
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But so for people who are mostly in our audience, right?
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They're in up operations roles, and they are like we sit in between, especially in marketing ops and revenue ops in these businesses.
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We sit between lots of different teams that maybe have competing priorities, right?
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We've got marketing, obviously, sales, finance, leadership.
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I would throw in legal, right?
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Because we've got we sit in the middle of all that like custom compliance with privacy and things like that.
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Then there's these now all these tensions, right?
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Different goals and perspectives.
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Um, so like beyond like some of the obvious, like why what do you think are some of the drivers that lead to the conflict as opposed to alignment in those in those scenarios for the people who are listening?
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It's wonderful that you listed the different uh roles or departments that we communicate or that the audience communicates with.
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So because if we look at those, we can stereotype, if we go to stereotypes, we can say that there is different culture, different language, different type of a personality uh as average in each of those teams.
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And so already here you have different cultures communicating.
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Somebody who is in sales is very different from someone who is in finance and in legal, right?
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And so they have different uh education, different slang, right?
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They they speak differently, right?
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Uh they have internal jokes, they have a culture within their department, right?
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And then it depends on individuals and who is the leader in that organization and how how they where do they go out together, how they socialize, right?
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What common jokes they have.
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And so just it's just that we we forget that when we speak the same language, yes, in the organization, we assume we are very much the same.
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Very few people remember when they speak to a different person that this person might be living in a totally different world.
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Yes.
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Plus, if we add on the top of that that we are all living in an information bubble because of the our social media algorithm that brings us information that confirms our biases, correct?
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Then and if you assume, and we can assume now that many of us work from home, right?
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So we probably have never met that person from a different department with a different role, different uh um priorities, and different culture, and we have not built that net, that friendship net, yeah, that connection net.
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We uh we can it's the same as talking to someone from a different country that you've never been to.
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Right?
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Yeah.
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You don't like you don't know their norms and things like that.
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Because so many things are flooding in my head right now.
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Like I remember the first time I went to Asia, and my what I thought it would was gonna be like was nominally, marginally accurate, but the reality of it was quite different.
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So my perception was one thing, and I think it would and going over there and spending time with those people, it completely changed the relationship we had by spending time together.
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I think it can some of that can be accomplished now through virtual stuff.
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It's but it requires work to do that.
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Exactly.
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It requires work and it also requires attention and a remembering that we are different.
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And when you go to Asia, you know it's going to be different, we'll look different, right?
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We uh and so you have a better attention to that detail, you're more noticing.
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But if you speak to somebody in if you're in the US and you're speaking with somebody from you from the US, you assume uh we just get each other, we understand each other.
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You you assume that they watch the same news that you watched in the morning, right?
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And probably not.
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No, no, these days that is absolutely I become a big believer that like uh a lot of the a lot of what's driving what seems to be such like divide in in the world is because literally people are saying completely different things.
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Right?
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It used to be right, wrong, or different, right?
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Everybody saw the same three or four broadcast news channels, and that was it, right?
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And now there's hundreds and hundreds, and they to your point they reinforce your own biases.
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Anyway, that's a whole nother topic.
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Um it's interesting you talk about the language though, because I I've talked a lot about having been in a sales role for a brief period of time.
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I often tell marketers, right, part of the challenge you're having with your relationship with sales is because they just simply speak a different language.
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And um, it's it's so I encourage a lot of people like go spend time, like sit down and watch what they go through, what they do, right?
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How are they talking to customers and clients and prospects?
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And I don't know how much people think that, because I think they immediately get to they don't understand what we do, which may or may not be true, but you probably don't understand them either.
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Right, exactly, exactly.
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It's great that you advise that.
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I love that, that you recommend people go and sit uh at the same table.
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Yeah.
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Right?
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And and and um in my in the framework that I've developed, the love and conflict framework, one of the steps is uh being on the same team, always remembering we're on the same team and personal, professional relationships.
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So literally, because I I use a lot of uh somatic uh therapy guidelines in my work, I and I bring my b the body always.
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I think what's important to remember it couldn't the body.
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So when I talk to someone where there is a potential conflict, or at least not even a conflict, but at least it's difficult to communicate, I will sit next to them and not across the table from them.
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Oh, interesting.
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And even like when I go out with my husband and I know that there is something tough to discuss, when the discussion comes, I will climb in the seat next to him.
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And I will say, okay, uh, we are together, we are a team.
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Yes.
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And the problem is in front of us, both of us.
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That's a really interesting frame because I would have as naturally assumed being face to face would have been more like you see, I feel like it would miss some of the body language components of it.
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But you're saying next to each other is so is there like research that backs that up too?
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Look, let's try.
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Um to me, this is intuitive that uh if we're next to each other, we feel each other, we're closer to each other, so we can feel more.
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Yeah, we can also co-regulate each other better.
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So there is research about corregulation, right?
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So the closer we go that we are, the higher chances there are that we co-regulate.
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So if you are nervous and I'm calm, or I can calm down because I meditate and I I know how to do it, and I sit next to you, you get affected by my state.
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And so there is a higher chance for me to calm you down.
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Yes, I can do it across the table, but I will do it even better if I'm next to you.
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We we can we look at each other, so we're not completely looking across.
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Right.
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So I can in your body language, but there is this idea of okay, the problem is there.
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It's not you are not my problem, I'm not your problem.
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We together have a problem that we together will now solve.
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Right.
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So anything that will put us on a we are the same team, uh, anything we can do body-wise or if it's virtual with a can with a conversation.
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Um, there was a couple therapists uh that we when we went to with my husband who told us before every difficult conversation, say I love you, and we are going to be okay.
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Uh yeah.
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And then go into into it, right?
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So there is a version of that that we can say when we talk to somebody who potentially has a different language, was which is, for example, people from the sales department versus marketing artists.
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I think this is what it's really interesting.
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So um this is curious.
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Having in a leadership role, I've had maybe not trying to help team members get through conflict where I might have to broker the conversation, right?
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Be in the conversation with them.
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Um this has occurred to me, so I'm putting this in front, like throwing you into something that we hadn't talked about before.
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But how do you recommend leaders, if they've got people who are in conflict on their team, um assuming like I would always try to push them, like can you resolve it yourself, right?
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Maybe give them some tools and guidance or suggestions for how to do that.
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But if you have to step in, like how would you like do you still want do you want them to sit next to each other?
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Do you want like how do you how would you, is there a physical orientation that makes sense for that kind of conversation?
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So, first, Michael, I would say that um uh in the teams I work with, I facilitate those conversations.
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I do not ask them to resolve it with each other.
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I actually have uh I actually disagree with that uh even in parenting, in the parenting world, you know, when the school would say to the kids, okay, go resolve it by yourself, do not come to the adult and go resolve it between yourself.
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Uh, assume that they will learn the skills by trying.
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And I don't think they will.
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But I think that we need to teach our kids how to resolve it.
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And I think if there are two team members that cannot that are in at conflict, it means that they have not been able to resolve it by integration.
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That's why they're looking for this for their manager, somebody in the team who is pretty more aware, more um experienced.
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And so I would facilitate the conversation to make sure that they take turns, that uh right, that they speak from an I statement and do not do uh do not uh put the other person at the defensive.
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Uh-huh.
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Right.
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So we all all the non-violent communication skills should be facilitated.
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That one person speaks, the other one only listens, there is no response right away.
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We wait until this person finishes, right?
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And we focus on the emotions, how it makes me feel, what happens to me, what happened to me.
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Um I might have been triggered.
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Uh, this is my story.
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This is that story that I made up uh based based on what happened.
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And here's my request.
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And so I will have them go one by one, and then okay, what is exactly is your request?
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And the more we do it with our team members, the more they learn those uh skills, and then they can go ahead and do it on their own.
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So if I'm facilitating, then I will ask them to sit next to each other.
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Okay.
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Uh in a way that they they they are look, they can see each other, they can feel each other, but they are not against each other completely.
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Yeah.
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And I also love talking without tables.
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So I'm always uh it's always uh I'm a bother when I come work at the at the organizations because I asked the tables to be removed or give me a room without the tables, because I think that we are so protected with the tables and we are so so well.
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It's it feels like a wall, right?
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I mean, um it makes sense.
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It's so interesting because you said something in there that is consistent with I think we talked about this, right?
00:19:09.049 --> 00:19:20.569
I the the version of this that really changed my the way how I handled things was from um the a book called Crucial Confrontations, and I've talked about it here, and you probably I think you're familiar with it too.
00:19:20.569 --> 00:19:25.529
And it's that you said something like uh wanting you to use I statements, right?
00:19:25.529 --> 00:19:45.049
And I think I I don't want to skip over that because I think this is a really important thing because I think a lot of the way I, in fact, I was talking to one of my children last night about this, because he's got a friend who's written a book and has asked him for feedback, and the way he's he's feeling concerned about how to communicate lots of as he called them issues.
00:19:45.049 --> 00:19:48.889
And I'm like, that's you're he asked for help, you're helping him, right?
00:19:48.889 --> 00:19:51.609
You you need to change your mindset a little bit.
00:19:51.609 --> 00:19:57.210
Um, it doesn't mean you get to be a jerk about it, but you and I don't think you will because you're actually worried about it.
00:19:57.210 --> 00:20:07.049
But I this is one of the things I learned was there was a lot of times when I would get in conflict where I would go, that person did this or did that or didn't do this and didn't do that.
00:20:07.049 --> 00:20:21.049
And when I learned like a lot of that was like me making assumptions about their intent or whatever, it when I realized like, oh, the way I can say the same thing in to but the way I say it matters a lot.
00:20:21.049 --> 00:20:28.809
And I think that can so when you say use I statements, I kind of know what you mean, but could you describe what you mean for the people who are not familiar with that?
00:20:29.129 --> 00:20:29.529
Absolutely.
00:20:29.529 --> 00:20:32.649
And let's step one step go one step before that.
00:20:32.649 --> 00:20:33.129
Okay.
00:20:33.129 --> 00:20:36.649
So uh step number one is assuming nothing.
00:20:36.649 --> 00:20:43.129
So uh before we start start speaking, we need to uh we need to research.
00:20:43.129 --> 00:20:46.250
Is my opinion actually about them?
00:20:46.250 --> 00:20:48.490
Is my judgment actually about them?
00:20:48.490 --> 00:20:50.089
What judgment do I have about them?
00:20:50.089 --> 00:20:51.369
What did I make up about this?
00:20:51.369 --> 00:20:52.649
What story did I make up?
00:20:52.649 --> 00:20:56.329
What story did I make up about them, how they feel about me?
00:20:56.329 --> 00:20:58.009
What is my upset?
00:20:58.009 --> 00:21:03.450
Because usually there's going to be upset, otherwise we wouldn't be talking about it, uh, wouldn't be calling it a conflict, right?
00:21:03.450 --> 00:21:07.129
Uh so what is my part of this?
00:21:07.129 --> 00:21:22.329
And when we look at our part of it, it's actually pretty deep because not only uh the surface of what upset me and what is my role in this whole scenario, but even deeper, okay, what do I think about this person and where does it come from?
00:21:22.889 --> 00:21:23.129
Yes.
00:21:23.609 --> 00:21:26.009
So what am I stereotyping right now about them?
00:21:26.009 --> 00:21:27.450
What are my biases?
00:21:27.450 --> 00:21:41.450
So, as an example, when I started investigating my biases, and you know, I had to face my biases from when I left Ukraine because going from Ukraine to China, okay, this is a new country, new I would say new planet.
00:21:41.450 --> 00:21:42.490
Right?
00:21:42.490 --> 00:21:51.609
So if I came in assuming things about Chinese people that I was told uh when I was in Ukraine, they're poor, they only read rice, they're uneducated.
00:21:51.609 --> 00:22:05.129
And then I can't, I can't, if I assumed all that, I wouldn't be interacting out of curiosity uh with people, I would just be looking at them and I would be confirming, seeing only the reality that confirms my biases, right?
00:22:05.129 --> 00:22:06.730
Or the decision I've already made.
00:22:06.730 --> 00:22:09.849
So the first step is clear the plate.
00:22:10.170 --> 00:22:10.809
Yes.
00:22:11.129 --> 00:22:14.170
And uh the next step is how do we listen?
00:22:14.170 --> 00:22:23.289
So we practice listening, and the listening quality for me is like this I listen ready to change my mind.
00:22:24.009 --> 00:22:24.569
Yes.
00:22:24.889 --> 00:22:28.730
And that's the only quality of listening we should have when we listen.
00:22:28.730 --> 00:22:32.970
If we are not ready to change our mind, we do not have permission to ask questions.
00:22:32.970 --> 00:22:41.289
Because if we already made up our mind and we are just preparing our answer in our head while the other person is talking, it's not a conversation.
00:22:41.289 --> 00:22:47.690
It's like two radio, or I don't know, there's just right that we are just we are waiting to say the next thing, right?
00:22:47.690 --> 00:22:48.250
Exactly.
00:22:48.250 --> 00:22:54.809
And it's not a conversation, which means the other person we're not in connection, which means this is not a relationship.
00:22:54.809 --> 00:22:56.089
Right?
00:22:56.089 --> 00:22:58.730
Which means we can't actually work together.
00:22:58.730 --> 00:23:01.529
Because if we don't have a relationship, how do we work together?
00:23:01.529 --> 00:23:04.970
There's no trust, uh, there is no collaboration, right?
00:23:04.970 --> 00:23:10.329
So the quality of so we assume nothing first, we clear the plate, okay, clean, clean.
00:23:10.329 --> 00:23:14.490
Then, and it's very hard to do, and with practice, we can do it slightly better.
00:23:14.490 --> 00:23:20.889
I'm not saying it's possible to completely clear it, but at least uh have an open, curious mindset.
00:23:20.889 --> 00:23:36.809
Then we learn how to listen, which is awkward, because especially in the states, you know, in in North America, uh, there is this uh bias, there is this culture of communication where we do not let each other finish our sentences.
00:23:36.809 --> 00:24:02.170
We start speaking whenever whenever there is a pause, whenever the person gets stuck, you know how the person gets stuck and and they can't find the last word, we go in and we help them because we already are so ready to tell them what we think and why they are wrong that we cannot let ourselves calm down and let them find that word.
00:24:02.170 --> 00:24:03.609
It's it's awkward.
00:24:03.609 --> 00:24:08.809
And so uh I've I've actually did this uh research on myself.
00:24:08.809 --> 00:24:16.089
So for two years, I did not allow myself to finish other people's sentences.
00:24:16.089 --> 00:24:20.009
It was a nightmare.
00:24:20.009 --> 00:24:34.569
It was so, especially in the States, because it means I spoke much less, because if it was a group in a group setting, other people would come in and I would have to and I would miss opportunities constantly to speak.
00:24:34.569 --> 00:24:55.450
And what I found out was very cool because I actually found out that um whenever I did not finish people's sentences and I let them hand in there in that pose of looking for that word, how like usually it's the most important word in a sentence when they get stuck because they're actually deliberately trying to be precise with me, which is wonderful.
00:24:55.450 --> 00:24:58.250
We should be rewarding people for that behavior.
00:24:58.250 --> 00:25:06.410
And so whenever I didn't finish that last word, they would then say a different word that I had in my head.
00:25:06.410 --> 00:25:11.690
So so many times people went into different directions that I assumed.
00:25:11.690 --> 00:25:21.289
But what happens is if I don't let them say it and I say the word for them, there is this uh we want to be agreeable.
00:25:21.609 --> 00:25:21.930
Yeah.
00:25:22.170 --> 00:25:24.970
So people just know it, oh yeah, it's kind of what I meant.
00:25:24.970 --> 00:25:28.649
And anyway, I just interrupted them, and uh anyway, it's my turn.
00:25:28.649 --> 00:25:29.210
Right?
00:25:29.210 --> 00:25:38.170
So it's that kind of quality of listening, and then it's about okay, so when it's my turn to speak, and that now we're to the to your question.
00:25:38.170 --> 00:25:41.849
I'm sorry, it took me all this time, but I just exactly what I wanted you to go through.
00:25:41.849 --> 00:25:43.129
Like it's a process.
00:25:43.129 --> 00:25:43.849
Right.
00:25:43.849 --> 00:25:59.769
And so once we listened carefully and we're ready to change our mind, and we heard them finish their sentences, and we clearly understand what is their point of view and their picture, and we keep asking questions until they don't have anything else to say.
00:25:59.769 --> 00:26:05.210
Then it's our turn to talk if we have something particular to say.
00:26:05.210 --> 00:26:10.009
Um maybe there's nothing to say, and we just hug and say, I'm sorry.
00:26:10.009 --> 00:26:16.569
Or no hugging if it's not right, but um, whatever is appropriate, um virtual hug.
00:26:16.569 --> 00:26:22.250
Um, but if there's something to say, then it's I sentences.
00:26:22.250 --> 00:26:27.210
So what just happened, this is how it made me feel.
00:26:27.450 --> 00:26:28.009
Yes.
00:26:28.250 --> 00:26:35.289
This is the story that I made up, this is what comes up for me, this is what it reminds me of.
00:26:35.289 --> 00:26:43.529
I love that because most of the time we are conflicting about something we've happened to us in the past.
00:26:43.529 --> 00:27:01.849
The way you speak to me, your tone right now, so much reminded me of how my first grade teacher used to talk to me, and I got so transferred to when I was six years old, I actually stopped listening because I got so triggered.
00:27:01.849 --> 00:27:03.529
I'm can we restart?
00:27:03.529 --> 00:27:11.450
Because and and my request for you, a request to you would be could could we see if your tone of voice could change?
00:27:11.450 --> 00:27:19.289
Because with that tone of voice, I know it's not your fault, I know that it's that things happen to me when somebody talks to me this way.
00:27:20.649 --> 00:27:22.490
Yeah, I I love that.
00:27:22.490 --> 00:27:25.769
Um, the the point about listening is a really important one.
00:27:25.769 --> 00:27:32.649
And I'm I have I've been told I interrupt, so I I have to really pay attention to that.
00:27:32.649 --> 00:27:43.210
But it's interesting because when I was early in my career as a consulting, and one of the things that we used to do when we were doing interview like client interviews, is we tried to do them in pair like with two of us.
00:27:43.210 --> 00:27:44.970
And there was a re two two reasons.
00:27:44.970 --> 00:27:58.970
One, we could alternate who was asking questions and taking notes, and but the other part was uh before the next question would be asked, so say the client answered a question, uh, neither of us would say anything.
00:27:58.970 --> 00:28:00.569
And there was this awkward silence.
00:28:00.569 --> 00:28:07.369
And what we found was the most valuable stuff came after if we let that awkward silence linger.
00:28:07.369 --> 00:28:10.009
And I think this this is true, right?
00:28:10.009 --> 00:28:23.369
It's kind of a similar to what you're talking about is if you don't immediately try to finish a sentence or answer for them, you're gonna learn something that you maybe assumed was different.
00:28:23.369 --> 00:28:25.849
I think it's fascinating what you did for two years.
00:28:25.849 --> 00:28:27.849
I don't know that I could do it.
00:28:28.490 --> 00:28:39.129
And Michael, you know what's uh interesting to me, uh, and I learned that the quality of the capability of sitting in silence with other people, I learned in China early on.
00:28:39.129 --> 00:28:43.769
Because uh at the very beginning, so I I was 20 years old when I started my first company.
00:28:43.769 --> 00:28:45.289
I'm a serial entrepreneur.
00:28:45.289 --> 00:28:48.170
Uh, I started to uh ran several global companies.
00:28:48.170 --> 00:28:57.210
And the first company, uh, we were, it was one of our first meetings where we were visiting a very established factory, me and my business partner.
00:28:57.210 --> 00:29:02.490
And that was this young, easily excitable uh entrepreneur.
00:29:02.490 --> 00:29:03.690
And we had a plan.
00:29:03.690 --> 00:29:04.410
I had a plan.
00:29:04.410 --> 00:29:11.609
I had a PowerPoint presentation that I would present to this uh team of uh older men who were running this factory.
00:29:11.609 --> 00:29:19.049
And if they signed up, we would be good to go because we were building a database of sustainable manufacturers in China.
00:29:19.049 --> 00:29:30.089
And uh my business partner is an older, experienced entrepreneur, Chinese entrepreneur, and so we sat down and they served as tea, and then nobody spoke.
00:29:30.089 --> 00:29:39.210
And I was so ready to present, like I had an agenda, I was just like, watch me, I'm going to tell them how it's going to be.
00:29:39.210 --> 00:29:42.009
The vision is clear, and but nobody spoke.
00:29:42.009 --> 00:29:46.089
And I was so unsure because I was so much younger and I didn't know the rules.
00:29:46.089 --> 00:29:51.690
And I looked at my business partner, and he showed to me, like, no, don't speak.
00:29:51.690 --> 00:29:53.450
And it was so frustrating.
00:29:53.450 --> 00:30:04.089
I don't know about you, how you feel, like you're in a room of people, and everybody's just sipping their tea and just looking at each other slowly in silence.
00:30:04.089 --> 00:30:06.730
And it's like it lasted for so long.
00:30:06.730 --> 00:30:11.129
And then at some point, they spoke, one of them spoke.
00:30:11.129 --> 00:30:16.009
And then I got my chance and I made my presentation, and we signed the deal.
00:30:16.009 --> 00:30:19.129
And when we came out of the meeting, I couldn't wait.
00:30:19.129 --> 00:30:22.250
I was just like, okay, this was so bizarre.
00:30:22.250 --> 00:30:23.849
I didn't know what was that.
00:30:23.849 --> 00:30:26.250
So I was like, grilling my business partner.
00:30:26.250 --> 00:30:27.529
So what was that?
00:30:27.529 --> 00:30:27.849
What?
00:30:27.849 --> 00:30:42.089
And he said that we believe that whoever speaks first is more excited about the project, which means they have less of a leverage in a negotiation.
00:30:42.490 --> 00:30:42.889
Yeah.
00:30:43.609 --> 00:30:51.210
So the longer you can keep silence, the shows that you are calmer about it, you care less.
00:30:51.210 --> 00:30:55.930
As such, you can negotiate better.
00:30:55.930 --> 00:31:13.369
And he said, like, every time he used to tell me, we get higher prices from our suppliers because of how excited you are to talk to them.
00:31:13.369 --> 00:31:15.289
Yeah.
00:31:15.289 --> 00:31:18.009
I was like, what the authenticity?
00:31:18.009 --> 00:31:21.049
I'm excited to talk to them.
00:31:21.049 --> 00:31:23.769
And and I'm still excited to talk to them.
00:31:23.769 --> 00:31:31.769
It's just that now I so I did I've practiced dipassana meditation for many years, and I've, you know, I dance tango.
00:31:31.769 --> 00:31:38.170
It's like my in a tango, we really learn how to calm down our nervous system because we are so close with the other person.
00:31:38.170 --> 00:31:40.170
So we really feel each other.
00:31:40.170 --> 00:31:43.369
And so now I know how to stay calm.
00:31:43.369 --> 00:31:51.529
And if if there is silence that's possible, I stay in it without getting freaked out for a long time.
00:31:51.529 --> 00:32:00.490
And the it's it's amazing what happens there because again, we co-regulate, we see each other, we recognize we're all human beings.
00:32:00.490 --> 00:32:14.009
We start listening, we start hearing what you know, whatever biases we have, or am I actually hungry now or tired, and I'm not able to hold the thought for right?
00:32:14.009 --> 00:32:22.250
Like uh or whatever there is, I can hear better about myself if I am in silent mode.
00:32:23.210 --> 00:32:26.250
It's really interesting because this is like all about self-awareness.
00:32:26.250 --> 00:32:42.410
But I think uh what's interesting to me is that I think most people, if they're like me, would thought self-awareness is about like what are my biases, what are my thought patterns, but it's like you're you're what you're even talking about is like awareness of your body and what's going on there.
00:32:42.410 --> 00:32:43.690
And it made me think so.
00:32:43.690 --> 00:32:49.529
I I tried yoga brief period of time, and it was very, very much more difficult than I thought it would be.
00:32:49.529 --> 00:32:52.329
But the thing I remember learning from that, two things.
00:32:52.329 --> 00:32:55.930
One was to how to steady my breathing, that was a really important piece.
00:32:55.930 --> 00:33:03.210
But the one that was more interesting to me, because I was more of a I played rugby, I played football in the US, I played, you know, you know, I was a runner.
00:33:03.210 --> 00:33:19.690
This I had this really weird experience where I could be out running and I could then relax my body while I was still running and putting in effort because I had learned how to be like know what was going on with my body and recognize, oh, that I've got I'm holding tension.
00:33:19.690 --> 00:33:22.569
I mean, it's kind of what you're describing, right?
00:33:22.569 --> 00:33:24.809
Is in your case meditation.
00:33:24.809 --> 00:33:26.250
I've never been able to do that.
00:33:26.250 --> 00:33:27.289
I don't know how people do it.
00:33:27.289 --> 00:33:32.410
I really don't, but I think that's that's interesting to bring that up as a part of this as well.
00:33:33.450 --> 00:33:38.009
And you know, we that's what I actually teach whenever I teach the course on love and conflict.
00:33:38.009 --> 00:33:39.609
We start with the body.
00:33:39.609 --> 00:33:49.930
We actually first learn how to do a body scan before we have any discussions about conflict and how, why, what, we start with the body.
00:33:49.930 --> 00:34:03.210
So the body scan is something that's easy to learn and we practice, and then we, you know, if I work with someone for two days, we do it several times a day and we learn how to scan our body while interacting with other people.
00:34:03.210 --> 00:34:12.250
So not only meditation at home by ourselves, but I think that this is the mindfulness that we bring with us anywhere we go.
00:34:12.250 --> 00:34:25.289
And you know, I got tested the other day I arrived from uh United States to Paris, and I was at the airport, and Paris Airport is is I'm really it really stresses me out.
00:34:25.289 --> 00:34:34.650
And I was walking and I felt all the stress and all the what everybody was feeling, I already feel a lot.
00:34:34.650 --> 00:34:50.010
And someone was rude to me, and I looked at them and uh I felt my body, I scanned my body, and I felt so much tension in my neck and my shoulders already.
00:34:50.010 --> 00:34:56.890
And then they were looking at me with um with quite with a lot of energy, negative energy.
00:34:56.890 --> 00:35:11.769
And I remembered that okay, as long as I if I can uh soften my neck, if I can relax my neck and my shoulders, there is this I can relax my body, and I know that most of the time they will relax too.
00:35:12.890 --> 00:35:13.769
Yeah, that's it.
00:35:14.010 --> 00:35:18.970
And so I did, and then they did, and then they apologized.
00:35:18.970 --> 00:35:27.210
So it's uh, and so that kind of it's really we can all do that.
00:35:27.210 --> 00:35:38.250
This is something that's so some people have it intuitively, some people learn it, some people do it with yoga meditation, and it's just it's really easier than that.
00:35:38.250 --> 00:35:45.690
It's just paying attention to our body, being able to scan from the top of our head, just like what we do.
00:35:45.690 --> 00:35:52.970
We first do it with our eyes closed, top to bottom, front, then back, and then we do the same with eyes open.
00:35:52.970 --> 00:36:00.490
Then we do it the same as we listen to the music, then we do it as we talk to other people, as we walk.
00:36:00.650 --> 00:36:00.730
Yeah.
00:36:00.890 --> 00:36:03.450
So that we learn we just constantly like this.
00:36:03.450 --> 00:36:08.330
Is my body, why wouldn't I be constantly feeling what's going on with it?
00:36:08.810 --> 00:36:15.370
Yeah, that's no, I it's funny, I hadn't really put this together with the idea of dealing with conflict, but it's so true.
00:36:15.370 --> 00:36:18.010
I mean, your body, it's part of the body language.
00:36:18.010 --> 00:36:20.730
Um it happens.
00:36:20.730 --> 00:36:22.250
Uh so excellent.
00:36:22.250 --> 00:36:22.890
I'm curious.
00:36:22.890 --> 00:36:30.090
So for like this is all it feels like you've got talked through here a lot of tools that people can uh use.
00:36:30.090 --> 00:36:34.810
Maybe they need to learn them, like in those conflict situations.
00:36:34.810 --> 00:36:46.970
If they know they have one like a conf conflict, they expect a conflict type of conversation to come up with a peer or a boss or subordinate or whatever.
00:36:46.970 --> 00:36:53.450
What are some of the things they can do before they get in that to get prepared for that kind of conversation?
00:36:54.250 --> 00:36:55.290
Oh, that's great.
00:36:55.290 --> 00:36:57.850
Well, uh, so we talked about the body.
00:36:57.850 --> 00:37:05.130
So make sure that you arrive, calm, present, that you're able to be present fully.
00:37:05.130 --> 00:37:08.570
This quality of being present, we all feel.
00:37:08.570 --> 00:37:13.450
You know, when you're with someone and somebody is really listening to you, they're fully there.
00:37:13.450 --> 00:37:15.210
It feels so good.
00:37:15.210 --> 00:37:17.690
We all want to be loved, seen, and witnessed.
00:37:17.930 --> 00:37:18.570
Yeah.
00:37:19.610 --> 00:37:26.410
And so, and so just simply no um cell phone on the on the table.
00:37:26.410 --> 00:37:32.570
Cell phones are all the table, not I'm just turning it all upside down or you know, face down.
00:37:32.570 --> 00:37:33.130
No.
00:37:33.130 --> 00:37:36.330
No electronics at the table, no computers at the table.
00:37:36.330 --> 00:37:37.690
Well, ideally no table.
00:37:37.690 --> 00:37:39.769
Everything stays in the back.
00:37:39.769 --> 00:37:44.170
And here we are, just um calm humans.
00:37:44.170 --> 00:38:02.810
And you know, that's in my book I write a lot about uh rituals, like having a cup of tea together, mate, whatever, whatever, like coffee, whatever your cup of tea is, yeah, to have a moment together that is just establishing that we are these two human beings that want to have a relationship.
00:38:02.810 --> 00:38:11.050
Maybe it's a relationship for one project, or maybe it's a relationship for long term, or even 10 minutes of whatever we have to deal with.
00:38:11.050 --> 00:38:15.530
But it's a relationship where we are going to ritualize connections.
00:38:15.530 --> 00:38:20.650
So we sit next to each other and we drink and we we breathe and we connect.
00:38:20.650 --> 00:38:24.730
So that's the body is there and we pay attention.
00:38:24.730 --> 00:38:26.170
So we don't have any tension.
00:38:26.170 --> 00:38:36.970
If you already come and you have the tension, or if you're all shaken from you are really triggered and upset and over overwhelmed, they're going to feel it, and then they're going to be defensive.
00:38:36.970 --> 00:38:40.490
And that's not going to the conversation already is not going to flow.
00:38:40.490 --> 00:38:46.330
And it's back to hungry, lonely, uh, tired, angry, right?
00:38:46.330 --> 00:38:49.690
So we check all those four if that's the case.
00:38:49.690 --> 00:38:58.410
And it's okay if it's the case, because we often we have to bring things, start conversations up when it's not perfect timing.
00:38:58.410 --> 00:39:13.610
For me, if that's the case, I will put my cards on the table and say, I'm actually feeling super angry, or I'm so hungry right now, or I've been, you know, whatever is or tired, didn't sleep last night.
00:39:13.610 --> 00:39:15.050
Here's my card.
00:39:15.050 --> 00:39:20.090
So now that we know that, here's my request.
00:39:21.290 --> 00:39:21.610
Interesting.
00:39:21.850 --> 00:39:24.090
And then I spell it out, all right?
00:39:24.090 --> 00:39:30.250
So if the situation is not perfect, I'm going to disclose to the other person, this is what's happening.
00:39:30.250 --> 00:39:32.090
So I might not be very coherent.
00:39:32.090 --> 00:39:33.050
I'm really tired.
00:39:33.050 --> 00:39:37.610
And I I really need, I would love us for us to connect and have this conversation.
00:39:37.610 --> 00:39:51.850
So my request is, or uh, so for example, my uh often my request, if I'm triggered, if I'm angry, I uh would like to have a very clear start and finish of the conversation.
00:39:51.850 --> 00:39:55.930
So I would love, you know, like a book uh bookend.
00:39:55.930 --> 00:40:01.530
So could we put an alarm in 10 minutes that we will finish this conversation in 10 minutes?
00:40:01.530 --> 00:40:12.410
So I know I I need to calm down for 10 minutes and be present here, and then we will finish and do whatever repair needs to happen, and then we will go, you know, so like being clear.
00:40:12.410 --> 00:40:19.290
So whatever requests that are necessary, I bring them and I put them as my cards.
00:40:19.290 --> 00:40:31.130
So that's the preparation and and the preparation of assuming nothing that we talked about before, yeah, where we investigate and look really, we are really uh researcher of the situation.
00:40:31.130 --> 00:40:33.130
What's going on for them?
00:40:33.130 --> 00:40:46.250
And you know, I've because I've facilitated many groups in uh in uh geopolitical conflict situations, you know, as I think I mentioned this before when we talked to you and me that I'm Ukrainian, I'm in the middle of so many conflicts right now.
00:40:46.250 --> 00:40:56.010
Ukrainian, Russia is at war with my country, I'm Jewish, uh, I have family in Israel, I have business partners in the Palestinian community and dear friends.
00:40:56.010 --> 00:41:01.690
I have a company in China and customers in the United States, and we are in trade war.
00:41:01.690 --> 00:41:10.570
And so uh and so it's a daily I have those conflicts, and I am in the middle of birth conflict.
00:41:10.570 --> 00:41:18.410
Um, what I've noticed when, and it's not mine, it's uh I had mentors who taught me this.
00:41:18.410 --> 00:41:30.890
When I am with someone in high uh stakes conflict, high intensity conflict, what we need to do is to get to our values and our fears.
00:41:30.890 --> 00:41:39.610
So I need to understand what they are afraid of and what do what they care about and read it deeply.
00:41:39.610 --> 00:41:46.890
So it's not only like when we talked about different departments, we might have different stakes and different roles, right?
00:41:46.890 --> 00:41:49.850
Can we go on a personal level?
00:41:49.850 --> 00:41:52.650
What does this person really care about?
00:41:52.650 --> 00:41:54.090
What are their values?
00:41:54.090 --> 00:42:06.890
Some people care for freedom, self-expression, some people want a need to have a feeling of belonging, and that's their number one value before their role in the organization.
00:42:06.890 --> 00:42:08.810
What is their why?
00:42:08.810 --> 00:42:14.810
So that's that's something that I need to know about this person before diving deeper.
00:42:14.810 --> 00:42:17.769
And then I need to know what they are afraid of right now.
00:42:17.769 --> 00:42:29.530
Because if there is a conflict, means that somebody's boundaries were crossed, somebody's expectations were not met, somebody's requests were not heard, and somebody's feeling unloved, unseen, uh uh unwitnessed, right?
00:42:29.530 --> 00:42:32.490
So what is going on for them?
00:42:32.490 --> 00:42:34.650
And then what about me?
00:42:34.650 --> 00:42:37.690
Okay, what am I afraid of?
00:42:37.690 --> 00:42:39.850
Like what are my fears right now?
00:42:39.850 --> 00:42:46.490
And what do I care about so deeply that has been stepped on, possibly, right?
00:42:46.490 --> 00:42:48.250
Or disregarded.
00:42:48.250 --> 00:42:56.890
And then we talk on that level, yeah, and there we meet as two human beings who care about each other.
00:42:56.890 --> 00:43:03.210
And on the top, when we have that safety net of friendship, because that's what friendship is about, right?
00:43:03.210 --> 00:43:07.690
Yeah, we can fall a lot of times on that net, right?
00:43:07.690 --> 00:43:17.210
We can jump around in all kinds of conversations and fall back to this is my why, this is your why, this is what I'm afraid of, you know.
00:43:17.210 --> 00:43:24.810
Like I am afraid of being like I cannot stand the feeling of being ignored and unwitnessed, me, my personal fear.
00:43:24.810 --> 00:43:25.290
Sure.
00:43:25.290 --> 00:43:28.570
And so I will put that card on the table.
00:43:28.570 --> 00:43:39.210
I will say that if we are working together and my emails go unanswered, I quickly get triggered into you're ignoring me.
00:43:39.450 --> 00:43:39.850
Yeah.
00:43:40.090 --> 00:43:45.370
I am not important, you don't choose me, I am not been seen.
00:43:45.370 --> 00:43:49.850
And so as I build a relationship with you, can we agree?
00:43:49.850 --> 00:43:51.290
Would you be able to?
00:43:51.290 --> 00:43:52.890
Here's my request.
00:43:52.890 --> 00:44:00.970
Uh, can we do you think your level of communication, how often you check emails, that you answer me every two days?
00:44:00.970 --> 00:44:02.650
Would that be comfortable for you?
00:44:02.650 --> 00:44:03.290
Yeah.
00:44:03.290 --> 00:44:03.930
Right?
00:44:03.930 --> 00:44:10.890
And if not, okay, it's it's okay, we I'm going to adjust, but I wanted to be clear that that's what happens to me.
00:44:10.890 --> 00:44:21.769
And that's so I'm trying to design designing my communication style and my relationships to take into consideration my my values and my fears and yours as well.
00:44:22.330 --> 00:44:22.970
It's interesting.
00:44:22.970 --> 00:44:38.170
It made me think of I had a CMO that I worked for in our our leadership team were getting really frustrated because we would all get emails late at night, early in the you know, or on weekends and whatnot, and everyone felt obliged to respond.
00:44:38.170 --> 00:44:52.490
And so, but somebody we got enough frustration that people we brought it up to in a group meeting, and it was interesting, it was a really eye-opening thing because he was like, Oh, I don't expect you to reply to all this, right?
00:44:52.490 --> 00:44:54.330
It's just convenient for me.
00:44:54.330 --> 00:45:03.050
And it was this big aha, it was great is how he actually listened and like, no, let's so let's set some, you know, something we can agree to.
00:45:03.050 --> 00:45:07.850
If it's something I really need fast, I will let like I will let you know, I'll text you in addition to email.
00:45:07.850 --> 00:45:18.010
Like, and it was it, it made everything so much like everyone sort of like I think probably everyone felt a little bit of calmness, like, oh, I don't have to do that.
00:45:18.010 --> 00:45:23.690
And it's it was just it was this unspoken assumption about what he thought.
00:45:23.690 --> 00:45:28.250
And when we had actually brought it up, we're like, oh, we were all wrong.
00:45:28.250 --> 00:45:29.850
Go figure.
00:45:30.570 --> 00:45:31.769
Yeah, it feels great.
00:45:31.769 --> 00:45:32.730
I love those moments.
00:45:32.730 --> 00:45:38.330
It's like to me, those moments are like uh discovering the blind spots of your car.
00:45:38.330 --> 00:45:44.490
I just I would I I think that this actually one of my fears is having blind spots.
00:45:44.490 --> 00:45:49.050
I want to not have them, and I know it's not possible.
00:45:49.050 --> 00:46:04.010
And so I actually surround right, but I surround myself with people who tell me about my blind spots, and I ask and I reward them for that behavior, you know, so that I can I I want to understand what is it that I'm not noticing.
00:46:04.010 --> 00:46:13.450
And so, and when it happens, it's just less for me, it's the relief of oh, oh, what this is the reality.
00:46:13.450 --> 00:46:15.530
Now I can adjust based on that reality.
00:46:16.090 --> 00:46:16.330
Yeah.
00:46:16.330 --> 00:46:20.090
I mean, I think that idea of being open to that feedback is really important.
00:46:20.090 --> 00:46:31.290
I I've gotten in the habit, I've I've been in the habit as a leader for a long time with people like I trust you, like like literally saying those words and not assuming that they know that.
00:46:31.290 --> 00:46:50.250
And I've the one I've been using lately, this is more in personal life, is like, I'm for you, me, when it comes to like uh a family, and it's you know, if they're dealing with something and you know, if I have to give them some feedback about what I think they're doing, right, or how they're handling something, I was like, I'm for you.
00:46:50.250 --> 00:46:55.610
I want you and so yeah, it just I think it helps set the groundwork.
00:46:55.610 --> 00:47:10.250
I so there was maybe we can wrap up here a little bit, but um, one of the things you you said when we were talking before was to see and it was like see the child in people when it comes like so.
00:47:10.250 --> 00:47:19.210
I'm curious, like first of maybe unpack that a little bit, but like if that is an important element, uh, how would we do that in professional environment?
00:47:20.330 --> 00:47:21.769
Yes, thank you for asking that.
00:47:21.769 --> 00:47:22.970
That's my favorite part.
00:47:22.970 --> 00:47:44.410
Yes, uh, so that's just uh that's uh something that um I've noticed first for myself, uh, that uh when I'm speaking to someone with whom I deeply disagree, when we have different values, and I am flooded with emotions and I cannot find the connection, the curiosity or open mind.
00:47:44.410 --> 00:48:27.210
Uh I or if somebody is is really angry, for example, or upset, or I notice that when I imagine them as a five-year-old, all of a sudden I have more curiosity and more, actually on the body level, what happens with me is I look at them, now they're five years old, and there is this, oh, this feeling of like, oh, this is a such a here's the person who is um hurting, who is uh, you know, who who is um who feels unseen or unloved or not belonging here, or you know, we didn't listen to them fully.
00:48:27.210 --> 00:48:32.890
And so then curiosity, love open opens up in me.
00:48:32.890 --> 00:48:36.650
And so now in my workshops, we actually practice this, and it's great.
00:48:36.650 --> 00:48:50.250
I do this with teams where we do two people stand in front of each other and we meditate looking at each other, uh with open eyes, and then uh and then I say, Oh, now think about them as a five-year-old.
00:48:50.250 --> 00:48:56.330
And as they do it, I keep prompting them, saying, What happened to them?
00:48:56.330 --> 00:48:57.850
Who loved them?
00:48:57.850 --> 00:48:59.530
How were they loved?
00:48:59.530 --> 00:49:02.810
Who held them when they were when they fell down?
00:49:02.810 --> 00:49:10.330
You know, who who acknowledged them, who who reassured them that they are beautiful and that they can do it, right?
00:49:10.330 --> 00:49:32.090
And so as we do that, it's amazing what happens, what because that that builds such a foundation then for harder conversations or for conflicts or for collaboration, when we actually acknowledge each other as okay, you were also five, and you were all and you might still, you're not might, you still have all those stories in you, right?
00:49:32.090 --> 00:49:33.930
They're there in every conversation.
00:49:33.930 --> 00:49:39.530
The harder the conversation, the more of five-year-old stories are in that conversation.
00:49:40.490 --> 00:49:42.330
Oh yeah, yeah.
00:49:42.330 --> 00:49:51.690
It's uh 15, 20 years ago, may would have thought that was a bunch of I don't know, pick the word, right?
00:49:51.690 --> 00:49:55.769
BS or um just goofy stuff.
00:49:55.769 --> 00:50:07.210
But I that the as I've gotten older, especially having been a parent now, like I find it it's actually more true that it's there's a lot of that stuff.
00:50:07.210 --> 00:50:09.530
It's and it's interesting, like these roles.
00:50:09.530 --> 00:50:10.570
We've talked about this before.
00:50:10.570 --> 00:50:22.490
One of our early guests said that to be really good at these operator roles, you've a couple of things, but one of them she said was like you need to be sort of a um someone who understands human psychology, right?
00:50:22.490 --> 00:50:24.010
Which is what you're talking about, right?
00:50:24.010 --> 00:50:27.050
So this is all it feels like it's all ties that together.
00:50:27.050 --> 00:50:29.290
Um this has been so much fun, Anna.
00:50:29.290 --> 00:50:31.210
Um, thank you for for sharing.
00:50:31.210 --> 00:50:34.170
Um, and I'm looking forward to seeing your book out there.
00:50:34.170 --> 00:50:44.410
So, but if people want to learn more about you or what you're doing, or you know, obviously we'll we'll share a link to the book, but uh what's the best way for them to do that?
00:50:44.810 --> 00:50:50.250
Yeah, the book will be uh on all digital platforms, and my website is analicat.com.
00:50:50.250 --> 00:50:53.610
I do workshops all over the United States and different countries.
00:50:53.610 --> 00:50:57.130
I do workshops in English, Mandarin, Russian, and French.
00:50:57.130 --> 00:50:58.810
So all right.
00:50:58.810 --> 00:51:02.970
And uh yeah, it's my you know, it's my purpose in life.
00:51:02.970 --> 00:51:09.530
I feel very much aligned with um I noticed that the better we conflict, uh, the better our relationships get.
00:51:09.530 --> 00:51:11.290
And yeah, there's more peace.
00:51:11.690 --> 00:51:14.250
Yeah, well, I think we need more of that in this world today.
00:51:14.250 --> 00:51:19.690
So um, and it's unfortunately a skill that I think a lot of people are not taught or don't have good examples for.
00:51:19.690 --> 00:51:22.410
So I'm glad to see it uh personally.
00:51:22.410 --> 00:51:24.250
So thank you again, Ana.
00:51:24.250 --> 00:51:24.970
Appreciate it.
00:51:24.970 --> 00:51:29.050
And thanks to all of our uh listeners and viewers out there now.
00:51:29.050 --> 00:51:30.250
We appreciate you.
00:51:30.250 --> 00:51:36.570
If you have ideas for topics or guests or want to be a guest, you can reach out to AI me, Mike, or me, and we'd be happy to get the ball roller.
00:51:36.570 --> 00:51:38.890
Till then, talk to you another time.
00:51:38.890 --> 00:51:39.370
Thanks.
00:51:39.370 --> 00:51:40.090
Bye.
00:51:40.410 --> 00:51:40.730
Bye.