Demand Gen and Ops Working Together with Janelle Amos

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Hello everyone, Welcome to another episode of OpsCast brought to you by MarketingOpscom, powered by all the MoPros out there.
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I'm your host, Michael Hartman, flying solo today, so we'll get Naomi or Mike back soon, I'm sure.
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Joining me today to talk about how demand generation and marketing slash revenue ops teams can work together better is Janelle Amos.
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Janelle is founder and chief strategist of Elevate Growth, her marketing and demand gen agency.
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Prior to founding Elevate Growth, Janelle held several leadership positions in demand generation, revenue marketing, digital marketing and general marketing.
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In addition, she is an advisor, podcast host and speaker.
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So, Janelle, thanks for joining me today.
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Thanks for having me.
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I'm excited to dive in.
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Yeah, this is going to be fun and so we could tell like we are covering both Dallas and the Fort Worth areas, right, or sort of.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, so we've got Texas.
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Texas is raining today.
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Texas represent.
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That's right.
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All right, as long as you're not a you're not a TCU person, are you?
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Well, my best friend is, so I kind of have to be, but a TCU person are you Well, my best friend is, so I kind of have to be.
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But personally, Okay, Because I'm an SMU guy and that's like it's hard for me to deal.
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We got no beef, that's right, all right.
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So you've spent most of your career in demand generation and you've worked with multiple marketing operations teams, and I think that's really why we want to talk today.
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But so let's just dive right into it.
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Like what, from your perspective, distinguishes the best Mops teams that you've worked with and maybe the other side right, what are the?
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You know, what are some of the things that you think you've learned over the years that demand generation folks could learn about how to work best with marketing ops and more tech teams?
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Yeah, I'll take your first question first, in terms of how I found the best marketing operations teams and from my experience it's been those that can somehow connect the day-to-day tactics to the business goal.
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And so, instead of just keeping the tunnel vision and kind of the blinders on and powering through because there's so much work to be done on an operation side of things, the list is never empty, but it's always important to communicate and advocate how it impacts what everybody else is doing in the organization, because it does.
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In my opinion, it's the backbone of how companies operate, either successfully or detrimentally, and not a whole lot of positions fully comprehend that implication.
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And so the best marketing operation folks who can communicate that, in my opinion, really set them apart from the rest.
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Gotcha.
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So when you say communicating that, are you talking about what they're doing, how they're supporting the teams?
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Is it just that they show understanding of the way the business works?
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It's understanding of how the business works and the implications for it.
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So a great example would be data.
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If you have bad data, the company cannot operate.
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The implications are marketing can't send emails.
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The implications are you can't segment lists.
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The implications are your reporting is going to be crap.
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The implications are when the executive team has the conversations with the board and they're asking great, what levers are you going to be investing in for the next quarter?
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If you're reliant on data and your data's off and you go back that next quarter and you come back and you say, just kidding, our data was wrong, we wasted an entire quarter.
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The implications are big and operations teams need to communicate that and advocate for the work and say I need throwing this number out there $30,000, $60,000 for support to clean up our data, here's why and connect it to who they're communicating the business case with.
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Right.
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Yeah, it's interesting because I think data is one of those ones especially let's set aside like reporting, analytics, like almost backward looking stuff, but like just in the day to day, like I always think about this, like the value of data is.
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Well, the danger of not having good data is just a simple thing, like, hey, we want to target our best customers, right.
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However, you want to define that If you can't do that easily, because the data is a mess and upstream processes or whatever that's like, it makes it really hard to be effective at doing anything and it slows everything down and then, over time, if you don't address it right, degrades trust in the data, degrades trust in the team, and that's not where you want to be right.
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That's a costly implication.
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Turnover, replacement, retention of employees I mean those you know those add up.
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Absolutely, absolutely.
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So if you were, if you were talking to other demand gen professionals, like how would because I do think, if I suspected, like if I was imagining what some of our listeners might be imagining right, Like oh, yeah, yeah, I get it, it's all on us to go figure out understand the business.
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They don't understand what we do either.
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How would you help demand gen folks who maybe actually don't understand how their mops teams can be leveraged to do that better?
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Ask.
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That's the number one thing that I've always one tried to be in my role and to try to encourage others to be is curious yeah, I love that, I agree, like I'm a big fan of that too, like I, and I think it hit me a couple of different ways in my career.
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One was like a weird one, which was when I was early in my career in marketing and I was at a big company and they were doing there.
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I happened to come in a week where they were doing one of these customer panels where there's a someone who's facilitating a conversation with a bunch of customers or potential customers, and then we were back behind the I can't remember, is it one way glass, twoway mirror, whatever and I was like I was like wanting to scream.
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I'm like, what are these people doing?
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And it made me realize like, oh, I need to actually be more curious and listen, so from customers.
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That's one, and then the other is working with different people, both being curious.
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But one of the things I got benefit from and it was sort of forced at one company different company in this case where everyone was required, and I was like they got rid of this too and I was like why had to go spend like half, half a day every like twice a year with someone in another department?
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It didn't even have to be one you worked with normally, so, like in this case, big event company.
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So, like the people who actually did production on our events, right, I spent time and it was really really helpful to understand how the rest of the company worked and not make assumptions, and I always enjoyed it when people were like sit in shadow with me too.
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Have you ever done anything like that?
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Yeah, Beyond just asking questions.
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Yeah, and I actually recommend it too.
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Did you ever?
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Have you ever done anything like that Beyond just asking questions?
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Yeah, and I actually recommend it too.
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You know, just if you're a new hire at a company, go and sit with other people on your team, cross departments, see if you can shadow some of the executives, depending on your role, and just learn, be a sponge, and then the insights that you can take from those will be able to mold how you can be more successful.
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You'll get insights like how to communicate with individuals, what it actually takes to make something come to life, how long it takes in a process or what specific bottlenecks there are, and maybe you could find some quick wins.
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Maybe you could find some empathy for how long it takes some teams.
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A lot of learnings can come from it, but you've got to take the first initiative and just be curious.
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Heavy.
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Do you recommend?
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Would you recommend to our listeners who are marketing folks to try to do that Not only do that with people internally, but also maybe be able to sit in on like customer calls or prospect calls?
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I will say, if you ever get a chance to, yes.
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A lot of companies that I have found they like to gatekeep who are on those calls.
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Sure, so it might not always be possible, but if the opportunity is there, certainly there's so much you can learn from their front lines.
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If not, then ask if the call can be recorded, see if you can get the cliff notes from ChatGPT and just learn.
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I think a lot of insights can come from just the recording.
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Of course it's not going to be the best if you're not in the room asking questions, like reading the emotions and behind it, but if you can take one step forward, then certainly you've got to learn on all different departments and avenues and especially your customers.
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Yeah, I mean the way I think about that one in particular, why, I asked, is it kind of goes back to that example of being behind the two-way glass or two-way mirror, right?
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Or was it like?
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Part of what was frustrating to me is I felt like they weren't using the right language.
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But then I realized in the middle of it, like actually we're not using the right language because if we're not matching what they're saying or doing, how they think about these, and that's actually on us, not on them.
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So, and then that made me better.
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At the time I was doing a lot of like search marketing stuff too.
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So when I was working with our product marketing teams um, I was, I was better consultatively with them on like how to, how to improve the results of what we were doing, right, so having that customer language understanding, so I can imagine if you're doing a full campaign, right, content's going to be important.
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Yeah, and I always say you know, just because I'm a marketer and we're doing a full campaign right.
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Content's going to be important, yeah, and I always say, you know, just because I'm a marketer and we're talking to other marketers, you know, marketing one-on-one is tailor your message to your audience, and that's the same thing when it comes to advocating or communicating internally as well as who are you talking to, what are they gold on, and how can we work together to be successful?
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What are they gold on and how can we work together to be successful?
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So when you, like you said, like one of the things to do is be like, maybe be the one that asks the first to try to connect the dots with these other teams and maybe sit with them, like, how do you have any advice?
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Like there's going to be some people who are totally comfortable with that right no problem asking and others who maybe will feel like, oh, I don't want to bother these people or I'm uncomfortable with that.
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Like how, any suggestions for how to just approach that kind of conversation?
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Yeah, I think in any role to really be fulfilled you have to have one person who's willing to be your advocate.
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So if you don't feel comfortable going to another department or even somebody else who might be more senior to you, I would find your advocate and help them be your champion.
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So a great example would be if both demand gen and marketing operations report to the CMO, then if you're intimidated to talk directly to the operations person but you're best friends with the CMO and you guys have a great working relationship, I would advocate to the CMO and ask I want to be curious, I want to learn more about how to partner better with the operations team.
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Could you help facilitate more open conversations between maybe the entire team, between me and the operations person?
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This is what I'm hoping to get out of it.
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Let me know how I can best support.
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And then you get into the room right and then afterwards you can do a debrief with the cmo and you can ask what did I do well, what did I do bad, where can I improve?
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And you can take those key learnings as well as your.
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You know, know, I say first party feedback from meeting directly with the operations person and learn for the next time.
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So in that case, you're actually asking the advocate not only to help broker the discussion, but actually be in the room virtual room, whatever as a part of that, to help facilitate that communication too.
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Is that what you're saying?
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Maybe it would depend on the situation, right?
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So if you would feel most comfortable in having that person in the room, then I don't see any harm, as long as they understand that their role is to facilitate.
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If you just need the introduction to get into the same room, then you can say cool, I got it from here, Thanks.
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It just all depends on the comfort level, you know seniority level of the individual and kind of what support they would need in that aspect.
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I think that's, that's a good idea.
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I it's not somewhat obvious now that I think about it, but I hadn't actually thought of that as a as a tactic and probably because I'm comfortable.
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I'd be comfortable going and asking directly, right.
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So it's like um that's a good question, Cause not everybody is comfortable, you know so yeah.
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So, um, let's say that you get that meeting scheduled like, like, how, how have you seen it work well or not work well, when you like?
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Let's assume that's like the beginning of some sort of connection, hopefully.
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Um, like, how would you like, how would you approach or how have you approached structuring those, keeping them going?
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Yeah, great question.
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I would recommend those to be recurring, so whether, depending on your company culture, weekly, bi-weekly, monthly, but you need to have something on the calendar going forward.
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The objective initially will be to understand let's understand what your goal is, let's understand what keeps you up at night, let's understand how I can best help.
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And then thereafter we can start working on mutually crafting strategies and plans together to achieve what we both want from outcomes.
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And then thereafter, on our recurring meetings, we talk about how we're pacing towards those, anything else that we're facing externally, any other bottlenecks now that we've implemented some of those.
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But on both parties have to remain curious and open and sometimes things don't always go the right way.
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The two of them could have a hypothesis put it in market and it flop.
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That doesn't mean that you're both bad, that's marketing right.
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So in that next call, it's not you did this wrong, you did that wrong.
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You know dah, dah, dah, dah, dah.
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It's.
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Listen, this flop to.
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What are we going to do better next time?
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And then you objectively have that conversation.
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Yeah, it's like looking for lessons learned.
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So, um, what I've had similar things to that and one of the things that I've struggled with, I think, over, especially over time the longer it goes is just kind of keeping track of all the different things we've talked about and having like tracking of that, making sure we're doing it.
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So, um, I know there's probably a lot of people would sort of gravitate right to some sort of project management system for that.
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I tend to like spreadsheets just easier for tracking that kind of stuff.
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Do you, do you have a preference for like how you track those things?
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I know it's pretty tactical, but I'm gonna apologize because I think somebody just knocked on my door and if you guys can hear my dog in the background, is it too noisy?
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It's real life.
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It's real life.
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Okay, here we are.
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We're authentic In terms of how to best track that, I would say.
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Do whatever the culture of the company is, if it is acceptable in a spreadsheet, if it's in a dashboard okay.
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So one of the things challenges I have with, uh, these ongoing conversations like that is just tracking what we've talked about action items, all that kind of stuff and I tend to use spreadsheets and a lot of people probably would um think about using a project management system.
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To me it seems like a little overkill, but just very tactical question.
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But like, do you have a preference for how you do that or what do you?
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What do you like to do?
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You have a preference for how you do that, or what do you?
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What do you?
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like to do.
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Yeah, normally a working Google doc.
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You know that you can set the meeting agenda, you can scribble on some notes and then every week it's one live working doc that we can keep track of conversations, you know next steps, et cetera.
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Yeah, like I mean, I like having a standard agenda too, so I just it's, it's always good Um.
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One of the things when you and I talked before that you mentioned that I really want you mentioned um.
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In these relationships, sometimes it's good to.
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I think the word you use was hero, like be a hero for the other person or the team in some ways.
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Can you go a little deeper on what you meant by that?
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Well, us, as humans, we're very defensive, and when somebody is I don't know what you're talking about.
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When somebody starts poking a little bit in a way, I don't know where, you're insecure, or you know, you have some you know past drama, things start to, you know, your hair start to spike up a little bit more than just an average hey, how are you doing Coffee talk?
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And so what I would recommend others is, if you're put in a position to have an uncomfortable or a hard conversation, would be to frame yourself in a way to be the hero and not necessarily or, excuse me like even make them the hero and have you be the sidekick, because you're not trying to take the credit, you're not trying to one-up, you're not trying to show that you're better than them.
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At least I would hope not, but at the end of the day, we both have to get over this hurdle together.
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So let's objectively communicate the elephant in the room, you know.
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Let's eliminate all the feelsies of I feel like, or you know, you know all the, all the sensory words and really just get back to the facts of.
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You know, I've observed X, y and Z has happened.
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I would like to have X, y and Z be a result.
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You know how can we have a conversation to mutually get us there?
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Yeah, I probably shared this before on other episodes, but I'm a big fan of there's two books, similar titles, one's called Crucial Conversations, one's called Crucial Confrontations, and they kind of provide frameworks for those kinds of difficult conversations that you were mentioning.
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I mean, I know that one of the things I try to do if I'm dealing with someone where, like maybe that I've reached out, started this meeting, it's still like a resistance kind of thing, like they're not totally bought into it is it's almost like a negotiation ploy, like would you be willing to try this right, like get them to say yes to one thing, even if it's a small step right where they've otherwise been resistant?
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Have you ever like, have you ever run into that where you've had, like really someone who's a challenge to like to get them to to work together on something, and have you worked through it like that?
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yes and no.
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No, yes, certainly faced individuals who you know, when you ask an open question such as would you be willing to do this?
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No, like entirely unworkable.
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But in that situation this goes back to having an advocate, you know, or having been in a role where you can then say, you know, disagree and commit, like we've got to do something.
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We can't sit here and iterate forever, so let's disagree and commit.
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If we're not on the same page and that keeps the go-to-market motion moving, it doesn't keep in.
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You know, they said, we said, who said it's just all right, cool.
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I disagree, like I think we should go a different way.
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But you know we're both here to get a job done.
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Disagree and commit.
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Yeah, I'm a big fan of.
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That's not the phrase I've used in the past.
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I I always use the word consensus, right, and usually applies more in a maybe a larger group than just a one-on-one kind of thing.
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But I always it has the same sentiment.
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Right, everyone has their stay.
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We make a decision and we all go support it.
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Right, like that's, that's our job.
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Which then leads to downstream, which is if it works, or like if it doesn't work.
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Right, if you were the one who said I was advocating for alternative X and we went with Y and it didn't work, like it's all your fault, like you don't get to go blame people, right, your job is to then go figure out well, what should we do next and learn from it.
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So there's a little bit of grace involved with that.
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So when you've done that, yeah, disagree and commit model model.
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How has that played out?
00:22:08.446 --> 00:22:22.458
Good, honestly, because it's gotten us in a room where we could communicate trust and if we got to the point of disagreeing but committing, that's all we needed.
00:22:22.458 --> 00:22:25.707
And then the outcome is let's see if it works.
00:22:25.707 --> 00:22:29.576
And then, if it does or if it doesn't, right and going into.
00:22:29.576 --> 00:22:33.256
If it does, and it's okay, cool, what idea would you like to try next?
00:22:33.256 --> 00:22:35.986
If I agree or disagree, let's commit, you know.
00:22:35.986 --> 00:22:39.854
Then if it doesn't work, then it's all right, now we learned.
00:22:39.854 --> 00:22:41.477
What would you like to try next?
00:22:41.477 --> 00:22:45.745
So it's kind of a twofold either way and building rapport.
00:22:45.745 --> 00:22:53.339
And if you do that enough times, then you have that rapport, peer-to-peer to where we can have that open discussion.
00:22:53.339 --> 00:22:57.815
Going forward, we'll regroup again, disagree and come in and we'll see.
00:22:57.815 --> 00:22:59.351
We'll let the data speak for itself.
00:23:00.445 --> 00:23:13.952
Yeah, I think for those of our listeners who have not tried something like this, where it feels like they're always butting heads right, I think if you can try something like this disagree and commit it will become way more natural.
00:23:13.952 --> 00:23:23.555
Right, because it's not easy at first, especially if you're the kind of person who is uncomfortable with conflict, right?
00:23:23.555 --> 00:23:26.300
So cause, sometimes that's what it feels like.
00:23:26.300 --> 00:23:29.975
Cause, you're right, people do get defensive and that's we're human.
00:23:29.975 --> 00:23:31.190
That's probably the default state.
00:23:31.250 --> 00:23:45.866
Yeah, I will say though um, I'm not quite sure what level your audience is right on, Um, but I feel like having that mentality is almost essential to break into senior leadership, executive level.
00:23:45.866 --> 00:23:52.792
I mean, I've been in rooms where executives are yelling at each other and at the end of the day they walk out and they're handshaking.
00:23:52.792 --> 00:23:55.870
I'm like it's just, it's part of the gig, it's not personal.
00:23:55.870 --> 00:23:57.675
Is it uncomfortable in the moment?
00:23:57.675 --> 00:23:59.768
Sure, maybe, but it's business.
00:23:59.768 --> 00:24:04.138
And I'm not saying it's business or it's okay to just yell at other people.
00:24:04.138 --> 00:24:04.557
It's not.
00:24:04.705 --> 00:24:22.234
But the reality is a true executive team is not going to agree 100% of the time, and the whole point is to build a team that has diverse opinions and experiences and welcome a conversation on how we could be different and challenge the status quo.
00:24:22.234 --> 00:24:36.051
That's a team you want to work for, and so I think at some point you know to your listeners that are listening to this is you have to, at some point, be okay with being in a room like that if you want to be in the next level.
00:24:36.051 --> 00:24:37.658
That's just part of the job.
00:24:37.658 --> 00:24:39.505
It doesn't mean that you have to be unethical.
00:24:39.505 --> 00:24:41.752
It doesn't mean that you have to be a terrible human being.
00:24:41.752 --> 00:24:52.615
That doesn't mean you know this and that it just means that it's part of the job, it's not personal, and it's an opportunity for you to share your perspective on navigating a business.
00:24:53.458 --> 00:24:56.648
Yeah, I mean, it's 100% agree.
00:24:56.648 --> 00:25:08.955
I coach people and one of the things I like coaching kind of is people who are like coach kind of is people who are like soon to be or in one of their early roles as a people leader.
00:25:08.955 --> 00:25:13.811
Because that's one of the lessons I always tell people like you've got to get comfortable with uncomfortable conversations, right, let's be the.
00:25:13.811 --> 00:25:17.909
The one they think about is with the people who work for them or report to them.
00:25:17.909 --> 00:25:19.874
But it goes all directions.
00:25:19.874 --> 00:25:23.550
Right, it was with your boss, with your peers, you know, with your peers, boss.
00:25:23.550 --> 00:25:47.580
Like you've got to get comfortable with that, otherwise you're going to get like it's going to be really it's going to be a terrible experience but you're going to get plowed over from those who don't have that level, right, right and I'm with you like you brought it up a couple of times, so I just want like so I am totally fine with passionately fighting for your position, as long as it doesn't get personal.
00:25:48.186 --> 00:25:50.875
If it gets personal, that's crossed the line, right?
00:25:50.875 --> 00:25:57.435
If it's your idea, like I don't agree with your idea, it doesn't make any sense to me.
00:25:57.435 --> 00:26:04.927
Okay, if you go to the next step and go like you're an idiot, no, no, you're pushing, like that's not.
00:26:04.927 --> 00:26:11.354
That's when my defense mechanism I know I would go up, like I would be like okay, now it's on.
00:26:12.396 --> 00:26:27.693
Yeah, I think if you're in a room where you have to defend your experience or your role, then I would say you're in the wrong room, because I've been fortunate to have been in rooms where the executive team is like I have no clue what you're talking about, janelle, or no.
00:26:27.693 --> 00:26:29.295
I disagree entirely with that.
00:26:29.295 --> 00:26:35.538
But I trust you, so prove me wrong and I'm like bet, and then you go and you build that rapport.
00:26:35.538 --> 00:26:38.360
But there's got to be a level of trust.
00:26:38.360 --> 00:26:47.653
There has to be a level of mutually wanting to make it work, and if that's not there, then I would say you're probably in the wrong room.
00:26:47.673 --> 00:26:49.140
yeah, no, I I think you're right.
00:26:49.140 --> 00:26:51.627
Like, to me, that trust piece is really, really important.
00:26:51.627 --> 00:27:06.754
And I see, um, I see actually see a lot of ops teams put in, marketing teams in general, like put on all these gates for like getting things done Right, particularly like review and approval processes.
00:27:06.754 --> 00:27:08.496
That I to me are often.
00:27:08.496 --> 00:27:19.958
When I see that, I often go like there's a trust issue at this organization, right, it's not about like, do we trust people do good work and make you know and then own the outcomes?
00:27:19.958 --> 00:27:38.897
If you don't, then that's when you start seeing these things like you know, four levels of review and approval, multiple iterations of the same thing with like small tweaks, it's like, no, that's not the problem yeah, that's a great perspective yeah, um.
00:27:39.498 --> 00:27:53.161
So you know, we've talked a little bit about like this process of building kind of a good working relationship and rapport and all that with a peer and maybe the peers team and your team.
00:27:53.161 --> 00:27:58.778
Does you think it matters that much if it's let's just keep it to ops and demand generate?
00:27:58.778 --> 00:28:02.115
Do you think it matters if it's demand gen, who starts it or up starts it?
00:28:02.115 --> 00:28:02.686
Does it like?
00:28:02.686 --> 00:28:05.010
Do you think it's worked better one way or the other?
00:28:06.714 --> 00:28:09.660
I don't think it matters from a role standpoint.
00:28:09.660 --> 00:28:16.093
I will say whichever one is the newest to the org should be the one that facilitates it.
00:28:16.093 --> 00:28:22.596
So the ops has been there for six months and the demand gen person is brand new.
00:28:22.596 --> 00:28:30.228
My expectation would be the demand gen person to facilitate that, because you're stepping in curious, you're stepping in trying to understand the lay of the land.
00:28:30.228 --> 00:28:32.855
You're stepping in trying to understand where the bodies are buried.
00:28:32.855 --> 00:28:35.211
You're stepping in trying to understand strategy.
00:28:35.211 --> 00:28:45.815
Right, there's a lot that you should be learning, and if connecting with people who are already in the day-to-day is not a part of that, my expectation is that that demand gen person probably won't be successful.
00:28:45.815 --> 00:28:48.652
Same thing if the tables were flipped right.
00:28:48.812 --> 00:28:49.013
Yeah.
00:28:49.033 --> 00:28:50.115
Demand-gen person was there.
00:28:50.115 --> 00:28:51.250
The operations come in.
00:28:51.250 --> 00:28:56.667
They should be asking what's worked, what's not worked, where the body's buried, what problems are you having?
00:28:56.667 --> 00:28:57.688
Is it data?
00:28:57.688 --> 00:28:59.028
Is it processes?
00:28:59.028 --> 00:29:00.151
Is it technology?
00:29:00.151 --> 00:29:03.214
What's important for you in the next 30, 60?
00:29:03.214 --> 00:29:08.941
All those things so role-based, not so much Whoever's newer to the org.
00:29:15.865 --> 00:29:19.892
That's an interesting one, because I think I almost have the opposite reaction to that.
00:29:19.892 --> 00:29:23.900
I would think the person who's been there longer should take a little more responsibility for that.
00:29:23.900 --> 00:29:27.771
I see where you're coming from and maybe it's the nature of I've.
00:29:27.771 --> 00:29:40.286
Could be because I've worked a little more for, like mid to large size companies more than small companies and, um, I mean my limited experience with small companies.
00:29:40.466 --> 00:29:41.528
Yes, I think I would agree.
00:29:41.528 --> 00:29:47.498
Right, the new person is like should be jumping in and building those relationships and a larger company.
00:29:47.498 --> 00:30:18.417
The reason I think of that is I think about when I've hired people at large companies, like I spend, like I hire people expecting to be able to do the the details of the job, but I don't expect them to know necessarily the organization and I spend a lot of time just like teaching them that and like then it's like part of my job is like facilitating those connections for those people, and I think of like, think of it the same way, like the person who's you know understands the organization better is the one who should take that first step well, it makes sense, it totally makes sense.
00:30:18.478 --> 00:30:20.646
And you know here, disagree to commit right?
00:30:20.646 --> 00:30:23.454
Um, I don't necessarily agree with that.
00:30:23.454 --> 00:30:41.771
And here's why, if we flip it from an org standpoint and say you know a CMO is hiring a demand gen person, my expectation is that the CMO would then be like okay, here's you know who you should be doing and connecting and here's your onboarding and holding your hand and those type of things.
00:30:41.771 --> 00:30:45.557
But when it comes down to, you're the senior leader.
00:30:45.557 --> 00:30:58.417
If I were a CMO stepping into a company and I don't facilitate conversations with the team that I'm inheriting or much like the rest of the executive team, people are going to be like you know what are they doing.
00:30:58.417 --> 00:31:03.625
So it just comes down, in my opinion, is how you want to be perceived.
00:31:03.625 --> 00:31:07.236
Are you perceived as a strategic leader or are you perceived as a doer?
00:31:07.845 --> 00:31:16.938
If you want to be perceived and making an impact at the company, I think it's mission critical to be the one facilitating those conversations and showcasing that you're capable.
00:31:16.938 --> 00:31:22.608
If not, then you're easily going to be bucketed, which, in my opinion, you don't want to be into.
00:31:22.608 --> 00:31:24.474
Their junior right.
00:31:24.474 --> 00:31:32.426
We have to handhold their two green and if you're not green or junior, then you know you better act like it.
00:31:32.426 --> 00:31:34.510
Show them who's boss, yeah.
00:31:35.032 --> 00:31:41.215
Okay, yeah, no, I think, like, even if you're not and you don't like, this is this is the one of those uncomfortable truths, right?
00:31:41.215 --> 00:31:43.994
I think perception is reality, right?
00:31:43.994 --> 00:31:50.426
So if you're not doing things to change that perception, then you, the perception is going to be how you're treated too.
00:31:50.426 --> 00:31:51.787
That's kind of what you're saying, right?
00:31:52.366 --> 00:31:52.586
Yeah.
00:31:54.128 --> 00:31:54.848
Yeah, makes sense.
00:31:54.848 --> 00:32:01.541
Yeah, fair enough, like, um, yeah, yeah, I don't even know that there's a right answer.
00:32:01.541 --> 00:32:07.063
I think maybe these are not even two sides of the same coin, right?
00:32:07.063 --> 00:32:12.677
I think both can be true, right, sure, yes, yeah, and I think maybe that's where it is.
00:32:12.677 --> 00:32:19.743
So let's say that kind of connection doesn't happen, right?
00:32:19.743 --> 00:32:28.865
What do you think the outcome is going to be if those, if those, some like one, one person, one team or another doesn't like start that, that interaction?
00:32:30.490 --> 00:32:32.096
Well, I think there's several implications.
00:32:32.096 --> 00:32:37.418
Number one is you will be operating in silo, which is detrimental to a go-to-market.
00:32:37.418 --> 00:32:45.355
Go-to-market has to have multiple cross departments working in unison, and if one department can't even do that, how are you going to roll that out across multiple?
00:32:45.355 --> 00:32:59.993
Two is the sooner that you can break down the initial barrier between human to human and really get on somebody's I don't want to say good side, but like good working side, you know where you want to build a team and do good work and you get excited about things.
00:32:59.993 --> 00:33:21.119
The longer that it takes for you to get there, the longer that things start to get in motion, it's going to be a lot of friction or it's going to be delayed timelines, delayed processes, and it's just going to constantly feel hard or take longer than it needs to, and so the implication, in my opinion, is detrimental to the business.
00:33:22.262 --> 00:33:27.215
Sure, yeah, in my opinion is detrimental to the business.
00:33:27.215 --> 00:33:27.918
Sure, that's yeah.
00:33:27.918 --> 00:33:46.539
No, the idea like there's going to be again goes back to your point about like people get defensive, right, it's going to, it's going to lead to that friction and frustration and finger pointing, and then that's naturally you can get the reaction and then, yeah, I can see nothing gets done, right but I don't feel like we should approach it in a lens of saying that the other is wrong.
00:33:46.580 --> 00:33:51.193
I mean, we're talking about two totally different roles you know there shouldn't be.
00:33:51.193 --> 00:34:01.899
You know my way, or the highway it's, at the end of the day, demand, gen and ops have to work together in unison lockstep.
00:34:01.899 --> 00:34:03.902
How we get there?
00:34:03.902 --> 00:34:06.225
That's the conversation to be had.
00:34:08.711 --> 00:34:09.192
I could not.
00:34:09.192 --> 00:34:10.514
Yeah, I mean I think there's.
00:34:10.514 --> 00:34:14.264
I didn't mean to imply that that's not the case.
00:34:14.264 --> 00:34:15.552
Right, that shouldn't be the goal.
00:34:15.552 --> 00:34:19.159
I'm just saying like I think maybe it's.
00:34:19.159 --> 00:34:28.315
It could be one or either side could be resistant to the whole idea, and that's when, like then it's going to devolve and that's not like that.
00:34:28.315 --> 00:34:31.277
Yeah, you're right, it's like then it's detrimental to the business.
00:34:31.940 --> 00:34:33.836
Yeah, and you know I'm going to call you out.
00:34:33.836 --> 00:34:36.454
It's not about you getting defensive, it wasn't anything you said.
00:34:36.454 --> 00:34:41.701
You know, it's just the conversation for the podcast and interpretation for the audience and listeners.
00:34:49.489 --> 00:34:50.253
It could go multiple different ways.
00:34:50.253 --> 00:35:08.675
Right, it's just my opinion, your opinion, yeah, I well, I think I think you're you're hitting on something I've said too, though, which is like there's not always, I think, people get caught up in using words like the right way or um, it's correct, like I, I think I think, especially in the lens of marketing, I mean, so much is to some degree.
00:35:08.675 --> 00:35:16.918
Some of it is luck, some of it is you know, you know you're like you need to know your audience, in this case really well to to make the mark.
00:35:16.918 --> 00:35:21.860
But it's like, it's still like I go back to my search marketing days, right, the, I can probably go back if I really wanted to go.
00:35:21.860 --> 00:35:25.092
Like I go back to my search marketing days right, the, I can probably go back if I really wanted to go.
00:35:25.092 --> 00:35:39.521
Like I know there, I know there are cases where I thought, um, like we were going back and forth debating about one word on a search ad, for example, right, and they basically had the same meaning, and like, well, duh, let's just do a test, right, let's see what happens.
00:35:40.224 --> 00:35:47.865
And I think I my the one I thought would perform better was right half the time, and half the time it wasn't right and there's.
00:35:47.865 --> 00:36:13.425
No, there was no pattern to it really, other than it just happened that way, and I think that was again like an eye-opening thing, like when you go like like this is I don't want to discount how important our work is and like you should care about your work and be invested in it, but at the end of the day, most of the people who are going to be listening to this, their job is not going to affect someone's life.
00:36:13.425 --> 00:36:16.398
I have a friend who, literally, is a neurosurgeon.
00:36:16.398 --> 00:36:22.735
His job it's another level and I think it's easy to lose that perspective.
00:36:22.735 --> 00:36:25.863
So this idea like this is the right way to do it.
00:36:25.863 --> 00:36:27.767
It's another level and I think it's easy to lose that perspective about.
00:36:27.767 --> 00:36:28.990
So this idea like this is the right way to do it.
00:36:31.356 --> 00:36:34.288
Well, maybe, maybe, there's lots of different right ways.
00:36:34.288 --> 00:36:47.657
Yeah, and I think the best thing for me and I'll say this time and time again was turning into a consultant, because essentially you're able to have that conversation objectively and backtrack to where you make it somebody else's idea.
00:36:47.657 --> 00:36:55.342
So, for example, we're talking about your search ad and we want to say, cool, we want to have the best performing search ad that there is.
00:36:55.342 --> 00:36:57.596
What are all the different avenues that we could get there?
00:36:57.596 --> 00:36:58.720
Okay, cool, you don't know.
00:36:58.720 --> 00:36:59.632
Let me help you map it out.
00:36:59.632 --> 00:37:01.376
We could do this, this, this, this, this.
00:37:01.376 --> 00:37:08.956
We could have this, we're that, we're this, this, we could have this word, that word, this word, that word, da, da, da.
00:37:08.976 --> 00:37:11.202
And I lean to you and I say which one do you want to do?
00:37:11.202 --> 00:37:12.847
And you say you know, I don't know, um, a, we'll do a and b for easy.
00:37:12.847 --> 00:37:16.414
You say a and I'm like well, you know, we could also consider b, we can consider c.
00:37:16.414 --> 00:37:18.597
Is there a reason why you're not considering the other ones?
00:37:18.597 --> 00:37:28.972
And I would hear you out and I was was like you know, we could also do an AB test and we could better understand, just objectively, you know, cause it's always good to have different creatives in market.
00:37:28.972 --> 00:37:32.081
And you know it's our first time running a campaign to the audience.
00:37:32.081 --> 00:37:33.211
We'll let the data tell us.
00:37:33.211 --> 00:37:36.195
Your idea is let's do an AB test.
00:37:36.195 --> 00:37:37.356
Awesome Thumbs up.
00:37:37.356 --> 00:37:38.097
Let's move forward.
00:37:38.097 --> 00:37:41.642
And it's not who said they said ego, ego.
00:37:41.642 --> 00:37:45.106
You know defensiveness, whatever it's, we want to get the best performing ad.
00:37:45.106 --> 00:37:56.416
The best way to do that is statistically.
00:37:56.436 --> 00:37:59.204
you know companies who run A B tests for the first initial da da, da da da, you know.
00:37:59.204 --> 00:38:00.487
See results X, y and Z faster.
00:38:00.487 --> 00:38:01.709
Yeah, I truly believe that's the best way.
00:38:01.709 --> 00:38:01.930
I love it.
00:38:01.930 --> 00:38:03.371
Let people believe the idea was there.
00:38:03.371 --> 00:38:04.412
Yeah, these are all like.
00:38:04.412 --> 00:38:08.516
So I go back to Brandy.
00:38:08.536 --> 00:38:32.579
Sanders was one of our first guests and many of our listeners may know who she is, but she said something that still sticks with me now, going well past four years, like five years later, which is she's saying in the context of for ops people but I think it's true, probably of anybody in corporate world is that you know we should be, you should learn to play chess and learn human psychology.
00:38:32.579 --> 00:38:34.403
Right Cause, right.
00:38:34.403 --> 00:38:38.548
And that human psychology part is what you're talking about.
00:38:38.548 --> 00:38:46.461
Right Like how to influence people, and it probably sounds to people like people.
00:38:46.461 --> 00:38:50.157
There's going to be people who have this adverse reaction to that idea, like it's.
00:38:50.157 --> 00:38:53.471
It's slimy or dirty, but it's not like.
00:38:53.471 --> 00:39:11.706
And it can be like, but it doesn't have to be right, it's like if it's, if you, if your goal is to improve that relationship and have outcomes that are good for everybody, then it's just a tool that you're using, as opposed to some sort of sleight of hand.
00:39:12.170 --> 00:39:13.295
Well, I think it's all about intention.
00:39:13.295 --> 00:39:19.521
You know, there's good humans, there's bad humans, and, at the end of the day, whatever somebody's intention is is what I'm going to hold true to them.
00:39:19.521 --> 00:39:27.539
And so if your intention is to truly craft the best search engine ad that there is, then let's collectively work together to get there.
00:39:27.539 --> 00:39:34.619
My intention isn't to make you seem like you don't know what you're talking about, to make you seem like you don't have an experience.
00:39:34.619 --> 00:39:43.579
My objective and my intention here is to get us to the end goal, and I think, at the end of the day, that's all we can hold humans accountable for.
00:39:43.579 --> 00:39:45.302
Um and on that.
00:39:45.530 --> 00:40:03.121
I think the flip that though and this is something I I try to just like don't assume intent as well, right, cause we have all have our own preconceived notions about things, or own of lived experience, and it tends we tend to attribute intent to people.
00:40:03.121 --> 00:40:16.113
And sometimes and it tends, we tend to attribute intent to people, and sometimes and I'm sure I'm guilty of this too like, sometimes it's because I like maybe it's a day where I'm really tired, and so they said something that normally wouldn't have triggered me, but it did.
00:40:16.113 --> 00:40:24.461
So I'm like, oh, they're just trying, and so often we're off base and like the.
00:40:26.423 --> 00:40:34.912
What I have tried, what I try to do on my better days, is to, if some, especially if something is like it hits me and I'm like bothered, like okay, what is it that's bothering me?
00:40:34.912 --> 00:40:48.715
And if I have the opportunity in the like and it's safe or whatever, like, I will actually ask something to understand, like, yeah, you said this, this is what it sounded like to me, is that what you meant?
00:40:48.715 --> 00:40:56.744
And it's it's really like striking to me that that often clears the air before anything.
00:40:56.744 --> 00:40:59.820
Sometimes the answer is yes, that's what I intended, and then you can deal with it.
00:40:59.820 --> 00:41:01.713
But if your assumption was wrong.
00:41:01.713 --> 00:41:03.297
Right, then you can also clear that up.
00:41:04.519 --> 00:41:05.643
Yeah, that's a great approach.
00:41:06.809 --> 00:41:11.943
So, um, yeah, well, this is has been fascinating, like I would.
00:41:11.943 --> 00:41:28.235
I think I think, um, if I think about the lessons from our conversation here, is like, hey, like reach out, try to build that relationship and try to do it in the context of everyone, like we're trying to do good for not only us but the business overall.
00:41:28.235 --> 00:41:36.760
Right, and then, like, going to it with trust is a part of it, like I want to trust you until you I mean people can lose trust.
00:41:36.760 --> 00:41:48.191
You can lose trust in people, for sure, but don't go in with that assumption that you're not going to be able to trust somebody Hopefully anything else that I missed major components there but don't go in with that assumption that you're not going to be able to trust somebody hopefully Anything else that I missed Major components there.
00:41:48.211 --> 00:41:49.132
Well, I think it's great.
00:41:49.132 --> 00:42:04.787
You know, I think, just know that humans are made to be defensive and assess people's intention before you create an actual like persona of them and label them in the back of your brain as bad.
00:42:04.787 --> 00:42:13.398
Sometimes that means having a hard conversation, and that is hard.
00:42:13.398 --> 00:42:14.280
I'm not going to sugarcoat that.
00:42:14.280 --> 00:42:17.230
But the outcome of those normally help in the long, long scheme of things.
00:42:17.550 --> 00:42:18.751
Agreed, agreed.
00:42:18.751 --> 00:42:23.079
We're kind of up against time here.
00:42:23.079 --> 00:42:27.224
Any last thoughts before we wrap up.
00:42:28.471 --> 00:42:40.003
You know, if you want to be great at whatever role, whether you're demand, gen or operations I think it should start from within and look at ways to find an advocate.
00:42:40.003 --> 00:42:54.157
You know plenty of successful people have mentors, and whether that's internal at your organization or external, I would just say never give up and always strive to be 1% better every day 1% better every day.
00:42:54.459 --> 00:42:55.702
I love it, Love it.
00:42:55.702 --> 00:42:58.148
Well, this has been fun.
00:42:58.148 --> 00:42:59.090
Janelle Appreciate it.
00:42:59.090 --> 00:43:00.393
Thank you so much for doing this.
00:43:00.393 --> 00:43:06.585
If folks want to learn more about you or keep up with what you're doing with Elevate, what's the best way for them to do that?
00:43:07.010 --> 00:43:08.133
Yeah, I appreciate you having me.
00:43:08.133 --> 00:43:09.838
This is the pleasure, is all mine.
00:43:09.838 --> 00:43:12.874
You can follow me on LinkedIn at Janelle Amos.
00:43:12.874 --> 00:43:18.795
You can follow my podcast, amanda and Made Simple, and if you want to say hi, you can send me a direct message and we'll chat.
00:43:19.776 --> 00:43:20.077
Awesome.
00:43:20.077 --> 00:43:31.095
Yeah, we'll have to put our notes in the link to your podcast too, so I know you've had some great guests out there, so I think we'll wrap it up there, janelle.
00:43:31.095 --> 00:43:31.735
Thank you again.
00:43:31.735 --> 00:43:37.784
So much fun, and thanks also to our listeners for their ongoing support.
00:43:37.784 --> 00:43:49.278
If you have ideas for topics or guests or want to be a guest, you can always reach out to Mike Naomi or me through LinkedIn, through the Marketing Ops community, and we'd be glad to talk to you about it.
00:43:49.278 --> 00:43:50.581
Until next time, bye, everybody.