00:00:08
S1: My new book, How Should Christians Think About Israel, released just this past week. It's a great day to discuss it. Stay with me and we'll do just that in just a moment. Hello, friends. Welcome to Open Line, Moody Radio's Bible study Across America. My name is Michael Ray Melnick. I'm professor emeritus of Jewish studies and Bible at Moody Bible Institute, and I'm so grateful to join you today around the radio kitchen table. Normally we're talking about the questions that you call in with, but today's a special day. A couple of reasons. One, uh, this is the day that we're hosting the summit about Israel in the end of days, right here on the campus of Moody Bible Institute. I am committed, in fact, I'm probably speaking even as this radio show is beginning. I'll be speaking to the group at Tory Grey Auditorium, so I can't be in two places at once. But also besides that, it's the week that our my new book, uh, How Should Christians Think About Israel Released? And I think it's always good to talk about that. And so today, no phone calls. We're just going to take this first hour to talk about the new book. And then also, uh, we're going to, uh, have a round table discussion about Israel in the last days. In the second hour. That's going to be really helpful and encouraging to people, I think. And that's also prerecorded. So no calls today. You can always get to us by going to our website openlibrary.org. And if you have any questions you can go to the link that says Ask Michael a question. Post your question there. It'll get into the mailbag, but no phone calls today. Appreciate you listening. Anyway, I do want to thank Tricia McMillan because she's not only producing today, but she's also our engineer. Thank you. Tricia. Wow. Uh, and, you know, normally, if there's someone coming on to talk about a new book, I would be the person interviewing them. But it's kind of hard to interview myself. And so what I've done is I've asked my good friend and colleague at Moody Bible Institute, uh, doctor Cisco Cotto, Francisco Cotto. Right. That's what I saw in your door.
00:02:30
S2: It sounds so much more official, doesn't it, Francisco? You know.
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S1: Yeah. Francisco. Uh, isn't there a line in a movie? Francisco. But anyway, uh. Uh, Cisco is, uh, my good friend for many, many years. He's a professor of pastoral studies at Moody Bible Institute. And he's also well known on the radio here in the Chicago area. Uh, so if you're in Chicago, you'll know that name, I am sure. But Cisco and I were talking about this, and I asked him if he would be sort of like flip roles with me today and come on. And, uh, actually host. I don't know about host, but.
00:03:13
S2: That sounds good, I like that. As long as I don't have to answer Bible questions.
00:03:17
S1: Yeah, you're good at that. Uh, so I'm glad that you're willing to do it, and it's great. So, uh, thank you for joining me, Cisco. And, uh, I think I'm just going to turn it right over to you and ask you what it is that you want to ask.
00:03:32
S2: Well, Michael, it's great to have you here on Open Line. Uh, I want to start. I want to start, and I really do. Anytime I can, uh, be with you on the radio. I absolutely love it. And so I appreciate you having me here. Uh, I want to ask you, how should Christians think about Israel? That's the title of the book. But there's something in the subtitle that I find interesting A Quick Guide to God's covenants, biblical prophecy, and the Jewish people. Quick guide people should know. I'd guess right off the bat. You don't have to be some scholar. You don't have to be some some expert. This is a book. You don't.
00:04:07
S1: Have to be a theologian to grasp this.
00:04:10
S2: Written for anyone, right?
00:04:11
S1: Yeah, it's definitely written. And it's it's it's brief. It's it's kind of a small book. You know, I'm actually surprised it made 100 pages with with the endnotes. So, uh, it's a it's a brief book. It's easy to read. I have a neighbor. I have a few pre-publication copies that I received. Uh, and my neighbor was talking to me, and she said, I just so wish I could know what the Bible says about how she's a follower of Jesus. How I, as a follower of Jesus, should think about Israel and the Jewish people. She actually said that to me. And I said, well, I've got a book for you. And I ran in the house. Uh, even I were walking our dogs with her, and she was walking her dogs and I ran out, ran into the house and brought out this book. How should Christians think about Israel? And she, you know, she is loves the word, loves the Lord, but really is not a theologian. And her husband also loves the Lord is an attorney. So that was yesterday. Today I ran into them when we were walking our dogs and they said, oh, she said, I already read that book. Uh, and she she said it was so helpful. Uh, I was so grateful for that. And then her husband said, yeah, I'm about halfway through. I started this morning. So really, when you think about it, it's a small book, easy to understand. Get out your Bible, because I think that will help you as you as we navigate some of the things that Scripture says. But it is what I was trying to do is take things that scholars have argued about and make it simple and easy to understand for anyone.
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S2: Yeah. You mentioned get your Bible out. It's one of the many things I love about this book, but the fact that it is scripture saturated, this isn't what Michael Riedel thinks about the issue. This is let's open God's Word and see what God's Word says about this.
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S1: Yeah, I find that that's what a lot of people do. They you know, they they presume that what I'm going to do is give my personal opinion that it is my personal opinion. It's my personal opinion of what Scripture says. And, you know, people can evaluate and see what the scriptures say. And if I'm if I'm handling them accurately and that's, that's really what the what the goal is. You know, people call here all the time and they want to know my opinion. You just fill in the the question, uh, what do you think about this or that or divorce or, uh, you know, what do you think about. And you could just any issue out there and I say, well, you know what, uh, what I think is really irrelevant, let's look at what the Bible has to say about it. And that's really what I try to do with this book.
00:06:50
S2: So you've obviously not the first book you've written. There's another on the Arab-Israeli conflict that you wrote several years ago for Open Line listeners who've already read that book, maybe contrast it. What are they going to get in this book that might help them understand what's going on today?
00:07:09
S1: Well, it's about a quarter of the size, for one thing. So it's really quick. And, you know, Moody Publishers asked me to produce something really quick. Uh, at the end of June, they called me up and they said, can you write a book? And I said, yes. And they said, can you do it in a month? And I said, maybe. And they said, can you do 10,000 words in a month? And I said, sure. And then they said, can you do 15? I said, yeah, I think so. How about 20? And at that point when I started to get nervous, they said, just 20. And I said, sure, I'll do 20. It ended up being 23,000 words. So, uh, that's so it's a lot shorter than that other book. The other deals with Bible. It certainly does, because it's not about the headlines only, but that other book has the history of the modern state of Israel. It's got, uh, the, the different political polemics that have to do with the State of Israel and the Palestinian perspective, as well as the Israeli perspective. It deals with it in a much more broader way with history, political science, uh, with international relations and scripture and prophecy. But this book is really about the Bible. In fact, what I really like is on the back it says, this book answers our questions using a scriptural lens rather than a political perspective. And and that's really what I wanted to do is, you know, the question came up, what is ah, should we bless Israel or those who bless Israel? Will they be blessed? Uh, or is that something that doesn't connect anymore. I think that's a biblical question. And so that's that's what prompted the book. And that's that's what I'm trying to do with this.
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S2: And people and I'm going to sort of give, give our listeners a taste of what's in the book here coming up. But is that what was really behind writing this at this time? Everything going on with October 7th? Israel is in the news literally every day. And as you mentioned about your neighbor, there's a bunch of people who go, what should I think about this as a Christian?
00:09:21
S1: Yeah, because there's so much, uh, what I would say, false information being relayed. Uh, and even when, when media tries to be fair, one side says this, the other side says that. And they're just trying to give, well, both sides ism. You know, just presenting both views doesn't really help us. What we want is not what, uh, person A versus person B thinks what we want is what is the Bible say? And and that's what this is about. Uh, I do think that that's why it's so important. And of course, there was a well-known interview that happened at the end of June where a senator talked about, uh, that he believed that God calls us to bless Israel and the Jewish people. And the host says, I'm a Christian. I don't even understand what you're talking about. And the host perspective was that, uh, as a member of the church, the church is the true Israel, and that the promises that God made to Israel no longer applied, that the people of Israel, the Jewish people today don't have any connection to the Jewish people of the Bible, things like that. And and was it I think it was about 2 or 3 days later that Moody Publishers contacted me and says, we need to respond to this.
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S2: There needs to be just a clear understanding. Right. Sort of like what? What does the Bible say about this? Exactly? And what does it say for today? Because you're exactly right that there's many people who want to sort of dismiss a lot of that, oh, that's already been fulfilled or it's fulfilled differently, or that's just of the past. And what that does is it leaves many Christians feeling as though those passages really don't have any relevance for today. As you're saying, if if the church is the new Israel, well, then what does it even mean that that that what the church will be blessed individual churches and people need to be nice to all, all local congregations. You know, I mean, it just gets really confusing.
00:11:19
S1: It really is. And so I think that's why, right off the bat in this book, what I try to do is show what not the Old Testament says about Israel so much as what the New Testament says about Israel. I think that that's so crucial, because people presume that the New Testament has made a switch, and that the church is now to be viewed as Israel. But I keep looking at the Apostle Paul. He doesn't seem to think that so.
00:11:48
S2: In fact, Paul aches for Israel. He aches for for the Jewish people, for them to be saved.
00:11:56
S1: Yeah, he says in Romans nine, when he talks about Israel being, for the most part, not believing in Jesus as the Messiah, what does he say? He says he has to. He says, I'm telling you the truth. I'm not lying. The Holy Spirit bears witness. My conscience bears witness. He's. Why is he? What are you going to say, Paul, that's so outrageous that you have to have all this, you know, outside testimony to confirm the truth of what you're saying. And what does he say? He says that I could wish myself accursed if possible. If only my people would believe. He wishes that he could go to hell, so that the people of the Jewish people might believe in Jesus and and be saved. And I think that's so crucial to understand his passion. But then he goes on to say, when he describes Israel, he describes the Jewish people. He goes, he says to them, belong. And he probably should pull my Bible up. But he talks about what belongs to them and the covenants and the the promises and the the calling that God has on Israel. And what I think is so crucial is that even a great New Testament scholar like Thomas Schreiner, one of the best out there, and I don't think he would necessarily fall into my theological camp, but he he's so honest and so fair that right there in Romans nine where it says, uh, they are Israelites and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the temple service, the promises. The ancestors are theirs. That's the patriarchs. And from them, by physical descent came the Messiah. He says. This whole phrase there is governed by a present tense. So he's talking about Israel in unbelief. And he said, yet all these blessings from God presently belong to Israel. Uh, that's what he does in his commentary in Romans. And I think that's so crucial that we understand this. It's not like God said, well, you didn't believe, so I'm going to break my promise, and I'm going to, uh, uh, I'm going to abandon Israel, bail on Israel, and take those promises away. No. Paul says in his book. Nope. These all belong to Israel, even unbelieving Israel. You know, I want to talk about this more, but we're going to before we go to break, I do want to say, if you're listening and you think, well, maybe I'd like that book. Well, I'd love it if you'd buy it someplace. But here's something that that would be maybe an encouragement to you. Uh, it's our current resource. And that means that if you give a gift of any size to open line, what we'll do is we'll send you as a thank you, a copy of How Should Christians Think about Israel? And that would be just something that we would appreciate so much. Your kind gift. Your generous gift. Uh, we want to use this as our way of saying thanks so much. We really appreciate it. If you'd like to give a gift to Open Line, all you have to do is call (888) 644-7122. That's (888) 644-7122. Or go to open Line radio.org. Click on the link where you can give and when you do remember ask for the the book. How should Christians think about Israel? Well, Cisco Cotto is here and I am here. Michael Ray Zelnick we're talking about the book how Should Christians Think about Israel? I hope you'll stay with us. Uh, because we're coming back with more discussion straight ahead right here on Open Line. Welcome back to Open Line I'm Michael Ray Dominik. And today's kind of a special day. It's a pre-recorded program so no calls today. The reason is uh, today's the, uh, very special gathering at Moody Bible Institute. The summit. And it's about Israel in the last days. We're having a great time there, but we had to pre-record this so we could be with you on the radio. And also, it's the week that my book, How Should Christians Think About Israel released? And so I've asked my friend Cisco Cotto, my colleague at Moody Bible Institute, to and Cisco, more than a friend, uh, more than just a colleague. We've really been friends for a long time, haven't we?
00:16:35
S2: Yeah. For, uh, can we say decades yet? Pretty close.
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S1: Pretty close. Yes. Yeah, I think I think it was about 2007 or so. Yeah. When, uh, we were in the same church, uh, and, uh, it's always been. I knew Cisco before that because he was a well-known newsman on on radio in the Chicagoland area. Uh, I love it that he teaches preaching at Moody Bible Institute and other subjects as well. Uh, but I asked Cisco if he would join me to talk about the book. And the reason is because now, Cisco, it's not just because you're a kitchen table partner. Actually.
00:17:17
S2: Uh, are you sure? No.
00:17:20
S1: No, uh, no, but I so appreciate that you are a kitchen table partner. I was wondering, this would be a great time of all people. Why did you become a kitchen table partner?
00:17:31
S2: Yeah, I went home one day, and I told my. I told my wife, I said, honey, we have to become kitchen table partners because they give you this really cool coffee mug if you. It's not. It's not about Michael or Eva or the program or the Bible teaching or Moody or any of that. It's a cool coffee mug. And and as she often does, she sort of rolled her eyes at me being crazy and and and we we became. I'm sipping out of my kitchen table coffee mug.
00:18:01
S1: As I am.
00:18:01
S2: To all the students at Moody. No. When Coto comes around, he's got his kitchen table coffee mug.
00:18:09
S1: Yeah, well, well, you know, that was kind of a funny thing that we came up with for the Kitchen Table Partners, because I've always talked about get your cup of coffee, get out your Bible. We're going to study the scriptures together. And I it took a few years and we finally said, hey, maybe we should give people who are sitting around the kitchen table, kitchen table, partners a coffee mug. Makes sense, doesn't it? Puts tea in hers. She she wastes the mug with tea, but, uh.
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S2: It really is great. I mean, I love the coffee mug, but and I do use it every single day. But in seriousness, my wife and I just just really believe firmly in what you do here on Open Line. The fact that people all around the country have an opportunity each week to get Bible questions answered, and to understand God's Word in a deeper way. It's just something we're just really, really passionate about it. We're regular listeners. Our children. Listen, I'll tell you. Michael, I've been on Chicago radio a long, long time, and my kids still think it's way cooler when I'm on open line than when I'm on my regular radio show. It's like I'm finally with a celebrity doctor right here.
00:19:16
S1: Well, I did think it was funny when I saw them this summer. Your kids, and they were like, oh, hello, doctor. I'm like, yeah, I'm just Michael. It's fine.
00:19:25
S2: Finally a radio star. Finally we get to see.
00:19:28
S1: They should be more impressed with their dad. But anyway, the the point is, if people give monthly we we? That's what being a kitchen table partner is and care deeply about the program. We so appreciate it. And I appreciate you and Anna doing that. And also, uh, anyone that becomes a kitchen table partner, we send an audio Bible study via email every, uh, every other week. And you can listen to that and maybe take some encouragement for a few minutes every other week. Uh, the way to become a kitchen table partner is to go to, uh, to open line radio.org. You can click there where it talks about becoming a kitchen table partner, or you can call (888) 644-7122. And we so appreciate it. Let's, let's uh keep talking about the book here.
00:20:15
S2: Yes. How should Christians think about Israel? Your new book that is just launching this week, uh, earlier, I want to follow up on something because earlier you talked about, uh, ethnic Israel, kind of, uh, you know, there's people who talk about a differentiation between ethnic Israel and spiritual Israel. You talk about this in the book. Help us to understand is there a is there a distinction between those who would be ethnically Jewish and those who, I don't know, religiously or spiritually would be Israel? The Scripture make that kind of distinction.
00:20:52
S1: Well, one of the really important passages about that that people often turn to and I think misunderstand, uh, is Romans nine six now just up at the outset. And there's another one that we'll talk about, too. Uh, Galatians 616 but, uh, Romans nine six, uh, let me just before even saying that, let me just say that in the New Testament, the word Israel is used 73 times. It is always used of people who are ethnically Jewish. Okay. It's never used of a Gentile. Now, uh, I'm not saying that Gentiles aren't Incorporated into the New Covenant promises or anything like that when they believe in Jesus, the Messiah of Israel. But the word Israel is never applied to Gentiles. Here's the verse that people like to cite, uh, Romans nine six. But it's not as though the Word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. Uh, and what they do is they say, see, you may be descended from the people of Israel, but if you don't believe in Jesus, you're not Israel. So the Gentiles who believe in Jesus are the true Israel. That's not what that verse is saying. In fact, most New Testament scholars who are even replacement, that believe the church have replaced Israel. They'll say, oh no, what that's saying is the truest Israel, the Israel that that's most, most Israel, I guess you could say, are the Jewish people who do believe in Jesus, uh, The Messianic Jews, the the remnant of Israel, as Paul calls them in Romans 11. Uh, the Jewish believers, they're the truest of all Israel. And the way I would look at it is, you know, we often talk about moody students, but a real moody student does all the homework, does all the reading, and even goes to all the basketball games and and you say, yeah, but how about the others that aren't going to the basketball games and maybe only does 50% of the reading for his courses or her courses, right. Are they moody students still? Yeah. Yeah, but but the the real moody students are the ones that do all those things. And that's what Paul's doing here. He's saying that, you know, if you're a descendant from Israel, but if you're going to be real Israel, true Israel, the most Israel, it's not enough just to be ethnically descended from Israel, but spiritually related to the Messiah of Israel. And that's the true Israel, the truest, I guess you would say. And I think that's why. And it's not just me saying that. That's I'd say the prevailing interpretation, even among those who believe in the church, that the church has replaced Israel. They recognize it's about ethnic Jewish people who believe in Jesus. Uh, so that's one passage.
00:23:52
S2: It doesn't create this. Or maybe it maybe there is this distinction where, uh, someone can be ethnically Jewish, and yet they're not a part of, uh, how would we say it? God's family, God's kingdom, or, you know, because they need to be saved by Jesus Christ. Is there that kind of a distinction?
00:24:12
S1: Well, I would say, first of all, when we think about the fatherhood of God. Okay. Uh, the scriptures teach that God is the father of creation. We he teaches that he's the father of Israel, uh, ethnic Israel. Uh, and, uh, but then there's a spirit. He's the spiritual father of those who believe in Jesus. And, uh, Jewish people who don't believe are part of creation. So God is their father. Uh, they're part of Israel. So God is their father in that sense. But spiritually, he is not. That's why we have to proclaim the gospel, and it's why we have to help Jewish people understand that the Messiah of Israel is come, and that he died for us and rose again. And all people are called to believe in him, not just Gentiles. So I think that's that's the distinction that I would make. But if you're going to be the truest Israel, then you're not. You not only have God as your father of creation, as your father of of Israel, but the father spiritually, he's having been redeemed by Jesus. That's why Paul calls them the truest Israel. Uh, and there in Romans nine six. Hope you're enjoying our conversation about how should Christians think about Israel. This new book. So glad that we're getting to talk about it, but we will be back to further discuss it in just a bit. So stay with us. You're listening to Open Line with Michael Ray Dolnick and my guest host today, Cisco Cotto. Stay with us. We'll be right back. I'm so grateful that the Far Eastern Broadcasting Company partners with Open Line to bring you the weekly Febc mailbag. Far Eastern Broadcasting Company is a terrific organization. They bring the good news to people via media and personal engagement. Check out the Febc podcast until All Have Heard, featuring Ed Cannon, president of Febc, by going to Febc. That's Febc. Support. Welcome back to Open Line. So glad to be with you today. There's no calls today because it's a pre-recorded interview. I'm here with my friend Cisco Cotto, who's the associate professor of pastoral studies at Moody Bible Institute. And we're talking about my new book, How Should Christians Think About Israel? We're going to continue the conversation right here.
00:26:53
S2: Let's talk about another verse that you discuss in the book. The book is how should Christians think about Israel? And you touched on it a moment ago. Galatians 616, May peace come to all those who follow this standard and mercy to the Israel of God. Now there's is there any controversy over how you interpret that verse, or is that pretty straight up?
00:27:16
S1: Yeah. The there's some people who want to take that conjunction there where it says and to the Israel of God Odd as sort of an explanatory where it says Even the Israel of God. So may peace come to everyone who holds this rule, every believer who believes in justification by faith. Right? Yeah. Uh, to everyone who agrees with me, Paul says, be peace and mercy and even to the Israel of God. Meaning that if you believe, if you believe in Jesus, Jew or Gentile, you're the Israel of God. I don't think that's what it's saying. I think there was a teacher at Dallas Seminary many, many years ago as Lewis Johnson who wrote an article about this. He says, you know, always take the simplest, uh, grammatical construction and the simplest one there is. And so peace and mercy to all who hold this rule and additionally, on the Israel of God. Well, who is that? I think what he is saying there is that I know that the people who have been saying that a person has to be circumcised, that a person has to. Convert to Judaism before they can believe in Jesus. Those legalists that were troubling the Galatians, he's saying, uh, he's obviously repudiating that in the book of Galatians. Then he calls for peace and mercy to anyone who who agrees with him and to the Jewish believers, the remnant of Israel, the faithful like Paul, like the apostles, like all those who believe in justification by faith and have not become legalists in calling for the, uh, to have, uh, convert to Judaism. So he's actually talking about the Jewish believers who are staying fast to Orthodox teaching, to the true teaching of Scripture. And that's what it's all in a conjunction. And that's what makes the most sense, simplest meaning, uh, makes perfect sense that Paul would want to give them an encouragement that I'm not I'm not blasting all these Jews. I'm only blasting the ones who are becoming legalists, the ones that are being faithful to Scripture. I want to give a special blessing to them of peace and mercy to them.
00:29:31
S2: We've touched quite a bit on New Testament passages, and you get into all those in the book in a little more detail. But there's also Old Testament passages as well. One is the Abrahamic Covenant from Genesis 12. This is when we touched on this a little earlier, as far as as blessing. But let me read this. There's just a few verses. Uh, the Lord said to Abram, go out from your land, your relatives, and your father's house, to the land that I will show you. I will make you into a great nation. I will bless you. I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you. I will curse those who treat you with contempt. And all the peoples on earth will be blessed through you. Uh, that that's not a covenant that seems as though it has been fulfilled. Right where we would say that's that's done. Or on the other hand, to what we discussed earlier or is being fulfilled solely through the church. That seems like something ongoing through the descendants of Abraham.
00:30:32
S1: It's some people want to say, well, it's just a blessing for Abraham. God says, you, Abraham. But then he repeats it to Abraham's descendants, particularly Jacob. Then in numbers 24, some people have argued, and I think, uh, that that he repeats it to all Israel. So, uh, the point is that the blessing for blessing and curse for curse principle is not limited just to Abraham. And now there are others who want to say, well, now the church is Israel. But I don't think the scriptures teach that. So this this principle is true. But what about when Israel does something wrong? Does God still look out for them? I think it's so interesting that in the very next paragraph, right after this passage about the covenant that God made with Abraham. There's a famine in the land. And what does Abraham do? He goes down to Egypt, and the first thing he does is he lies to Pharaoh or tells a half truth, which is a whole lie. Uh, he says that Sarah is his sister, right? His relative. And and she is, but she's also his wife. Pharaoh takes her into his harem. He is, in a sense, cursing Abraham, the promised seed, that God made the promise of a seed that God made to Abraham being totally threatened here. And what does what happens? God sends plagues upon Pharaoh and his household. It sort of foreshadows what happens in the book of Exodus when Pharaoh oppresses Israel. Then God sends plagues. And so instead, Pharaoh, when he figures out what's going on, he he gets rid of Abraham, sends him home. But what did he do? He gives him the wealth, all this wealth to take with him, just like the Egyptians were going to do when they give him the wealth of Egypt when the Israelites are leaving. And so it seems to me what this is saying is, even when Israel isn't perfect, uh, they don't have to be perfect. God still is going to carry out this policy of blessing for blessing and curse for curse. Uh, that seems like what this is saying right here in Genesis 12. And you see it through the rest of Scripture. What happens to Haman? Uh, in the book of Esther? The curse that he planned for Mordecai falls on him. Uh, the curse that the nations in Persia were going to bring upon the people of Israel falls on those who planned it. And I think that's so crucial, because even in the book of Esther, why isn't God's name mentioned? Because it's showing his providence that even when Israel forgot God, God didn't forget them. He's still faithful to them. And so those are some of the reasons that I think that this principle still holds true. And you could look at it in history as well.
00:33:26
S2: As we watch the news, listen to the news, as we touched on earlier, I mean, October 7th, ever since then, Israel and Gaza. I mean, they're in the news every single day. And so one of the things that leaves Christians conflicted, and I think one of the one of the ways this book is most helpful is in understanding how a Christian should view Israel today. The the nation of Israel, maybe when compared or contrasted with the biblical Kingdom of Israel or the Jewish people more generally, because there's help us with that, because there's a lot of Christians that say, do I have to go along with everything that the nation of Israel does today in order to be a blessing to God's people, or is that not the case?
00:34:14
S1: Uh, well. it seems to me that it's it's important to know one thing because people are saying are are the people of Israel today, the Jewish people and the nation of Israel? Is it the same as or the state of Israel? Is it the same as Biblical Israel? Before we talk about the other stuff, is how are they different? How are they the same? Well, today modern Israel is secular, and obviously biblical Israel was a theocracy. Uh, today, uh, modern Israel is a democracy. Biblical Israel was a monarchy. So they're not exactly the same. But biblical Israel is the nation state of the Jewish people that God promised them. The only indigenous people ever to govern themselves in that land were the Jewish people and remain so today. There's never been an indigenous people there that govern them, other than the Jewish people that govern themselves? Every other government they've ever had has been from the outside. The only indigenous indigenous government was the Jewish governments. And today the modern state of Israel is the nation state of the Jewish people. And so, therefore, I would say they're not exactly the same, but in terms of being the nation state, they are the same. And, uh, so do I have to support the government of Israel? I don't think that, uh, even Israelis always support the government of Israel. Some people say, well, the government of Israel isn't perfect. I you know, I do know that the United States government isn't perfect either. In fact, show me one government that is. Uh, and so the point is you it's not saying I agree with every policy, every action of the current government or any government of Israel. But there's more to it than that. I think that we can disagree. And listen, I have relatives in Israel. They're out protesting regularly against the government. But they are. They love Israel. They love their home country. They they are supportive of the country, of the nation while maybe disagreeing with the government. And I think that they're some of the the caveats that I would have about if you're going to disagree with the government, the first caveat I would have is disagreement doesn't mean delegitimize. In other words, to say there shouldn't be a state of Israel. Uh, because if you're going to wait for a perfect state of Israel, you're never going to have it. You're never going to have a perfect United States, either. So we don't delegitimize America if we disagree with the government. Oh, we shouldn't have a state of the United States of America. No. And so and that's what some people do. They say, well, Israel doesn't have a right to exist. We should never delegitimize the self-determination of the Jewish people, which is what Israel is a self-determined self-determination in their ancient homeland. Uh, secondly, we shouldn't apply double standards to Israel. Uh, I think there so often that people are making Israel live up to a standard that no other Western democracy lives up to. If we even see how Israel fights wars, they fight it in a way that has such a higher standard of ethics. Now, are there people who do things wrong? Absolutely. It's war and they're fallen human beings. But in terms of principles of the the way Israel fights these wars, they do it with a higher ethical standard, uh, even than Western democracies. We shouldn't apply double standards to Israel. Third, we shouldn't, uh, demonize Israel. There are people who, Whatever Israel does, it's wrong. The presumption is that what Israel does is wrong. They demonize the state so we can disagree with the government. I had someone just last week come up to me and basically say that if if you support Israel, that means that you're supporting a terrible person like Benjamin Netanyahu. Well, listen, I may or may not agree with Netanyahu, but he's not the epitome of evil, which is the way that they were putting it. That's demonizing Israel. And then lastly, and this is important, we shouldn't allow when we disagree based on deceit. We shouldn't disagree based on deceit. In others, there's all these lies being propagated, uh, particularly Holocaust inversion, where, uh, Israel is being accused of genocide, something they are not doing. Israel is accused of, uh, creating a famine. That's not happened. It's funny how this war just ended. And all of a sudden, oh, there really is no famine. Uh, and there never was. So I think that's my caveats for, uh, this this thing, uh, is that, uh, I guess we can disagree with the government, but we have to be cautious enough. When we come back, we'll talk more about the book, how Christians should think about Israel. I'm here with Cisco Cotto. I'm Michael Redding. Stay with us. We'll be right back on open Line. With Israel constantly in the headlines and anti-Semitism rising around the globe, many Christians are wondering how to respond. Should we support the State of Israel? How's the church relate to Jewish people today? My new book, How Should Christians Think About Israel, provides clear, scripture based answers. We'll explore Israel's unique identity and ongoing role in God's plan. Request your copy with a gift of any amount. Call (888) 644-7122 or visit online radio. Welcome back to Open Line. I'm Michael Ray. I'm so glad that you're listening in today. And I did want to, uh, mention to you that, uh, we're talking about this book, how should Christians think about Israel that I wrote? I'm grateful that we have a chance to talk about it. I'm here with Cisco Cotto, but one of the questions that came up earlier was the need to tell Jewish people that the Messiah has come, and that forgiveness is in him. And a lot of people say, I would really like to do that, but I'm just not sure how to talk to Jewish people about Jesus. Well Chosen People Ministries, one of our partners here in ministry, they want to help you do that. They've provided a book for Open Line listeners, it's called introducing your Jewish friends to the Messiah, and it's available to you at no cost. All you have to do is go to our website, Open Line Radio, and scroll down till you see the link that says Free Gift from Chosen People Ministries. Click on that and it'll take you to a page where you can sign up for your very own copy of How to Introduce Your Jewish Friends to the Messiah. Uh, and now we'll go back and we'll talk more about this book, uh, which is how should Christians think about Israel?
00:41:40
S2: Michael, uh, we I just want to touch on something that we talked about earlier, because I just want to make sure there's a clear distinction. Should Christians view the modern state of Israel in a similar way to how, uh, maybe another nation would view an ally? You know, we're we're partners. We're for each other. We're here to support each other. But that doesn't mean we agree on every single policy. And yet the disagreement on that policy or this policy or that, you know, way you're doing this or that doesn't mean we're no longer allies or partners. Is that a way for Christians to think about Israel, the modern state of Israel?
00:42:20
S1: Yeah. Well, I think we should we need to think of Israel as our strongest ally in the Middle East. Uh, and I but that's political, not necessarily biblical. Uh, I did see that, uh, Hugh Hewitt, a, uh, someone who thinks biblically very often but is a political commentator, wrote that Israel is he just recently wrote this, that Israel is in a column. Israel is the strongest ally the United States has, maybe in the world, if not in the Middle East. And I think that's important for us to remember, but we don't always agree. But what I'll tell you what concerns me is just recently At Founders Week. I talked to individuals. Uh, not speakers, obviously, but individuals who are present. And they have heard such evil about Israel. Things that really misconstrued, unfair, untrue. And they're ready to just throw the Jewish people overboard. Uh, also, just recently, uh, very influential podcaster had a neo-Nazi on his program. Uh, he, he himself said, I hate, uh, Christian Zionists, Zionism just being the belief that Jewish people have the right to self-determine, uh, their life in their own homeland. I hate Christian Zionists, Zionists more than anyone, and I mean more than Hamas, more than Nazis more. And so I see this erupting anti-Semitism, which I don't even want to use the word anti-Semitism anymore. Uh, my son really challenged me about that. The word anti-Semitism, which means Jew hatred, was developed by someone who hated Jews, and he wanted to make it sound more scientific. So he took the word judenhass, which means Jew hatred. And he came up with the word anti-Semitism. My son said we should never use it. We should never clean it up. Uh, and, uh, I kind of think maybe he's right. Uh, that Jew hatred is erupting in the United States. It's erupting around the world, but it's erupting on the not just the political left, but the political right and among evangelicals. And if there's something that we can learn from this book, is that we people who believe God's Word need to be the loudest voices in opposing this movement instead of embracing it.
00:45:01
S2: There's the that that kind of active participation. Is there also? I'm thinking Ephesians six. Our battle is not against flesh and blood. Do we need to remember? Hey there, there is another realm at war with God's people. We need to be regularly, deeply in prayer for all of these elements that you're talking about.
00:45:26
S1: Oh, I absolutely think so. Uh, we happen, you and I, we both know Janet Parshall. That's. She wrote to me, uh, just today before this recording and said, this is a spiritual warfare. That's what she said. Uh, the rye, the return of anti-Semitism as a mass movement, uh, even among evangelicals. That's spiritual warfare. And we who believe in the Messiah, the Messiah. Jesus. Uh, we need to stand with him against this hatred of his people. Uh, thank you for that question. And by the way, uh, Cisco, thank you so much for joining me. And thanks to Tricia, uh, for doing such a great job producing and engineering today. Uh, that's the program for today. When? Uh, next week, we'll be back with your calls and questions. Keep reading the Bible. We'll talk about it next week. By the way, check out our website, openlibrary.org. You'll see everything you're looking for there. Open Line with Doctor Michael is a production of Moody Radio, a ministry of Moody Bible Institute.
S1: My new book, How Should Christians Think About Israel, released just this past week. It's a great day to discuss it. Stay with me and we'll do just that in just a moment. Hello, friends. Welcome to Open Line, Moody Radio's Bible study Across America. My name is Michael Ray Melnick. I'm professor emeritus of Jewish studies and Bible at Moody Bible Institute, and I'm so grateful to join you today around the radio kitchen table. Normally we're talking about the questions that you call in with, but today's a special day. A couple of reasons. One, uh, this is the day that we're hosting the summit about Israel in the end of days, right here on the campus of Moody Bible Institute. I am committed, in fact, I'm probably speaking even as this radio show is beginning. I'll be speaking to the group at Tory Grey Auditorium, so I can't be in two places at once. But also besides that, it's the week that our my new book, uh, How Should Christians Think About Israel Released? And I think it's always good to talk about that. And so today, no phone calls. We're just going to take this first hour to talk about the new book. And then also, uh, we're going to, uh, have a round table discussion about Israel in the last days. In the second hour. That's going to be really helpful and encouraging to people, I think. And that's also prerecorded. So no calls today. You can always get to us by going to our website openlibrary.org. And if you have any questions you can go to the link that says Ask Michael a question. Post your question there. It'll get into the mailbag, but no phone calls today. Appreciate you listening. Anyway, I do want to thank Tricia McMillan because she's not only producing today, but she's also our engineer. Thank you. Tricia. Wow. Uh, and, you know, normally, if there's someone coming on to talk about a new book, I would be the person interviewing them. But it's kind of hard to interview myself. And so what I've done is I've asked my good friend and colleague at Moody Bible Institute, uh, doctor Cisco Cotto, Francisco Cotto. Right. That's what I saw in your door.
00:02:30
S2: It sounds so much more official, doesn't it, Francisco? You know.
00:02:34
S1: Yeah. Francisco. Uh, isn't there a line in a movie? Francisco. But anyway, uh. Uh, Cisco is, uh, my good friend for many, many years. He's a professor of pastoral studies at Moody Bible Institute. And he's also well known on the radio here in the Chicago area. Uh, so if you're in Chicago, you'll know that name, I am sure. But Cisco and I were talking about this, and I asked him if he would be sort of like flip roles with me today and come on. And, uh, actually host. I don't know about host, but.
00:03:13
S2: That sounds good, I like that. As long as I don't have to answer Bible questions.
00:03:17
S1: Yeah, you're good at that. Uh, so I'm glad that you're willing to do it, and it's great. So, uh, thank you for joining me, Cisco. And, uh, I think I'm just going to turn it right over to you and ask you what it is that you want to ask.
00:03:32
S2: Well, Michael, it's great to have you here on Open Line. Uh, I want to start. I want to start, and I really do. Anytime I can, uh, be with you on the radio. I absolutely love it. And so I appreciate you having me here. Uh, I want to ask you, how should Christians think about Israel? That's the title of the book. But there's something in the subtitle that I find interesting A Quick Guide to God's covenants, biblical prophecy, and the Jewish people. Quick guide people should know. I'd guess right off the bat. You don't have to be some scholar. You don't have to be some some expert. This is a book. You don't.
00:04:07
S1: Have to be a theologian to grasp this.
00:04:10
S2: Written for anyone, right?
00:04:11
S1: Yeah, it's definitely written. And it's it's it's brief. It's it's kind of a small book. You know, I'm actually surprised it made 100 pages with with the endnotes. So, uh, it's a it's a brief book. It's easy to read. I have a neighbor. I have a few pre-publication copies that I received. Uh, and my neighbor was talking to me, and she said, I just so wish I could know what the Bible says about how she's a follower of Jesus. How I, as a follower of Jesus, should think about Israel and the Jewish people. She actually said that to me. And I said, well, I've got a book for you. And I ran in the house. Uh, even I were walking our dogs with her, and she was walking her dogs and I ran out, ran into the house and brought out this book. How should Christians think about Israel? And she, you know, she is loves the word, loves the Lord, but really is not a theologian. And her husband also loves the Lord is an attorney. So that was yesterday. Today I ran into them when we were walking our dogs and they said, oh, she said, I already read that book. Uh, and she she said it was so helpful. Uh, I was so grateful for that. And then her husband said, yeah, I'm about halfway through. I started this morning. So really, when you think about it, it's a small book, easy to understand. Get out your Bible, because I think that will help you as you as we navigate some of the things that Scripture says. But it is what I was trying to do is take things that scholars have argued about and make it simple and easy to understand for anyone.
00:05:53
S2: Yeah. You mentioned get your Bible out. It's one of the many things I love about this book, but the fact that it is scripture saturated, this isn't what Michael Riedel thinks about the issue. This is let's open God's Word and see what God's Word says about this.
00:06:07
S1: Yeah, I find that that's what a lot of people do. They you know, they they presume that what I'm going to do is give my personal opinion that it is my personal opinion. It's my personal opinion of what Scripture says. And, you know, people can evaluate and see what the scriptures say. And if I'm if I'm handling them accurately and that's, that's really what the what the goal is. You know, people call here all the time and they want to know my opinion. You just fill in the the question, uh, what do you think about this or that or divorce or, uh, you know, what do you think about. And you could just any issue out there and I say, well, you know what, uh, what I think is really irrelevant, let's look at what the Bible has to say about it. And that's really what I try to do with this book.
00:06:50
S2: So you've obviously not the first book you've written. There's another on the Arab-Israeli conflict that you wrote several years ago for Open Line listeners who've already read that book, maybe contrast it. What are they going to get in this book that might help them understand what's going on today?
00:07:09
S1: Well, it's about a quarter of the size, for one thing. So it's really quick. And, you know, Moody Publishers asked me to produce something really quick. Uh, at the end of June, they called me up and they said, can you write a book? And I said, yes. And they said, can you do it in a month? And I said, maybe. And they said, can you do 10,000 words in a month? And I said, sure. And then they said, can you do 15? I said, yeah, I think so. How about 20? And at that point when I started to get nervous, they said, just 20. And I said, sure, I'll do 20. It ended up being 23,000 words. So, uh, that's so it's a lot shorter than that other book. The other deals with Bible. It certainly does, because it's not about the headlines only, but that other book has the history of the modern state of Israel. It's got, uh, the, the different political polemics that have to do with the State of Israel and the Palestinian perspective, as well as the Israeli perspective. It deals with it in a much more broader way with history, political science, uh, with international relations and scripture and prophecy. But this book is really about the Bible. In fact, what I really like is on the back it says, this book answers our questions using a scriptural lens rather than a political perspective. And and that's really what I wanted to do is, you know, the question came up, what is ah, should we bless Israel or those who bless Israel? Will they be blessed? Uh, or is that something that doesn't connect anymore. I think that's a biblical question. And so that's that's what prompted the book. And that's that's what I'm trying to do with this.
00:08:58
S2: And people and I'm going to sort of give, give our listeners a taste of what's in the book here coming up. But is that what was really behind writing this at this time? Everything going on with October 7th? Israel is in the news literally every day. And as you mentioned about your neighbor, there's a bunch of people who go, what should I think about this as a Christian?
00:09:21
S1: Yeah, because there's so much, uh, what I would say, false information being relayed. Uh, and even when, when media tries to be fair, one side says this, the other side says that. And they're just trying to give, well, both sides ism. You know, just presenting both views doesn't really help us. What we want is not what, uh, person A versus person B thinks what we want is what is the Bible say? And and that's what this is about. Uh, I do think that that's why it's so important. And of course, there was a well-known interview that happened at the end of June where a senator talked about, uh, that he believed that God calls us to bless Israel and the Jewish people. And the host says, I'm a Christian. I don't even understand what you're talking about. And the host perspective was that, uh, as a member of the church, the church is the true Israel, and that the promises that God made to Israel no longer applied, that the people of Israel, the Jewish people today don't have any connection to the Jewish people of the Bible, things like that. And and was it I think it was about 2 or 3 days later that Moody Publishers contacted me and says, we need to respond to this.
00:10:36
S2: There needs to be just a clear understanding. Right. Sort of like what? What does the Bible say about this? Exactly? And what does it say for today? Because you're exactly right that there's many people who want to sort of dismiss a lot of that, oh, that's already been fulfilled or it's fulfilled differently, or that's just of the past. And what that does is it leaves many Christians feeling as though those passages really don't have any relevance for today. As you're saying, if if the church is the new Israel, well, then what does it even mean that that that what the church will be blessed individual churches and people need to be nice to all, all local congregations. You know, I mean, it just gets really confusing.
00:11:19
S1: It really is. And so I think that's why, right off the bat in this book, what I try to do is show what not the Old Testament says about Israel so much as what the New Testament says about Israel. I think that that's so crucial, because people presume that the New Testament has made a switch, and that the church is now to be viewed as Israel. But I keep looking at the Apostle Paul. He doesn't seem to think that so.
00:11:48
S2: In fact, Paul aches for Israel. He aches for for the Jewish people, for them to be saved.
00:11:56
S1: Yeah, he says in Romans nine, when he talks about Israel being, for the most part, not believing in Jesus as the Messiah, what does he say? He says he has to. He says, I'm telling you the truth. I'm not lying. The Holy Spirit bears witness. My conscience bears witness. He's. Why is he? What are you going to say, Paul, that's so outrageous that you have to have all this, you know, outside testimony to confirm the truth of what you're saying. And what does he say? He says that I could wish myself accursed if possible. If only my people would believe. He wishes that he could go to hell, so that the people of the Jewish people might believe in Jesus and and be saved. And I think that's so crucial to understand his passion. But then he goes on to say, when he describes Israel, he describes the Jewish people. He goes, he says to them, belong. And he probably should pull my Bible up. But he talks about what belongs to them and the covenants and the the promises and the the calling that God has on Israel. And what I think is so crucial is that even a great New Testament scholar like Thomas Schreiner, one of the best out there, and I don't think he would necessarily fall into my theological camp, but he he's so honest and so fair that right there in Romans nine where it says, uh, they are Israelites and to them belong the adoption, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the temple service, the promises. The ancestors are theirs. That's the patriarchs. And from them, by physical descent came the Messiah. He says. This whole phrase there is governed by a present tense. So he's talking about Israel in unbelief. And he said, yet all these blessings from God presently belong to Israel. Uh, that's what he does in his commentary in Romans. And I think that's so crucial that we understand this. It's not like God said, well, you didn't believe, so I'm going to break my promise, and I'm going to, uh, uh, I'm going to abandon Israel, bail on Israel, and take those promises away. No. Paul says in his book. Nope. These all belong to Israel, even unbelieving Israel. You know, I want to talk about this more, but we're going to before we go to break, I do want to say, if you're listening and you think, well, maybe I'd like that book. Well, I'd love it if you'd buy it someplace. But here's something that that would be maybe an encouragement to you. Uh, it's our current resource. And that means that if you give a gift of any size to open line, what we'll do is we'll send you as a thank you, a copy of How Should Christians Think about Israel? And that would be just something that we would appreciate so much. Your kind gift. Your generous gift. Uh, we want to use this as our way of saying thanks so much. We really appreciate it. If you'd like to give a gift to Open Line, all you have to do is call (888) 644-7122. That's (888) 644-7122. Or go to open Line radio.org. Click on the link where you can give and when you do remember ask for the the book. How should Christians think about Israel? Well, Cisco Cotto is here and I am here. Michael Ray Zelnick we're talking about the book how Should Christians Think about Israel? I hope you'll stay with us. Uh, because we're coming back with more discussion straight ahead right here on Open Line. Welcome back to Open Line I'm Michael Ray Dominik. And today's kind of a special day. It's a pre-recorded program so no calls today. The reason is uh, today's the, uh, very special gathering at Moody Bible Institute. The summit. And it's about Israel in the last days. We're having a great time there, but we had to pre-record this so we could be with you on the radio. And also, it's the week that my book, How Should Christians Think About Israel released? And so I've asked my friend Cisco Cotto, my colleague at Moody Bible Institute, to and Cisco, more than a friend, uh, more than just a colleague. We've really been friends for a long time, haven't we?
00:16:35
S2: Yeah. For, uh, can we say decades yet? Pretty close.
00:16:40
S1: Pretty close. Yes. Yeah, I think I think it was about 2007 or so. Yeah. When, uh, we were in the same church, uh, and, uh, it's always been. I knew Cisco before that because he was a well-known newsman on on radio in the Chicagoland area. Uh, I love it that he teaches preaching at Moody Bible Institute and other subjects as well. Uh, but I asked Cisco if he would join me to talk about the book. And the reason is because now, Cisco, it's not just because you're a kitchen table partner. Actually.
00:17:17
S2: Uh, are you sure? No.
00:17:20
S1: No, uh, no, but I so appreciate that you are a kitchen table partner. I was wondering, this would be a great time of all people. Why did you become a kitchen table partner?
00:17:31
S2: Yeah, I went home one day, and I told my. I told my wife, I said, honey, we have to become kitchen table partners because they give you this really cool coffee mug if you. It's not. It's not about Michael or Eva or the program or the Bible teaching or Moody or any of that. It's a cool coffee mug. And and as she often does, she sort of rolled her eyes at me being crazy and and and we we became. I'm sipping out of my kitchen table coffee mug.
00:18:01
S1: As I am.
00:18:01
S2: To all the students at Moody. No. When Coto comes around, he's got his kitchen table coffee mug.
00:18:09
S1: Yeah, well, well, you know, that was kind of a funny thing that we came up with for the Kitchen Table Partners, because I've always talked about get your cup of coffee, get out your Bible. We're going to study the scriptures together. And I it took a few years and we finally said, hey, maybe we should give people who are sitting around the kitchen table, kitchen table, partners a coffee mug. Makes sense, doesn't it? Puts tea in hers. She she wastes the mug with tea, but, uh.
00:18:36
S2: It really is great. I mean, I love the coffee mug, but and I do use it every single day. But in seriousness, my wife and I just just really believe firmly in what you do here on Open Line. The fact that people all around the country have an opportunity each week to get Bible questions answered, and to understand God's Word in a deeper way. It's just something we're just really, really passionate about it. We're regular listeners. Our children. Listen, I'll tell you. Michael, I've been on Chicago radio a long, long time, and my kids still think it's way cooler when I'm on open line than when I'm on my regular radio show. It's like I'm finally with a celebrity doctor right here.
00:19:16
S1: Well, I did think it was funny when I saw them this summer. Your kids, and they were like, oh, hello, doctor. I'm like, yeah, I'm just Michael. It's fine.
00:19:25
S2: Finally a radio star. Finally we get to see.
00:19:28
S1: They should be more impressed with their dad. But anyway, the the point is, if people give monthly we we? That's what being a kitchen table partner is and care deeply about the program. We so appreciate it. And I appreciate you and Anna doing that. And also, uh, anyone that becomes a kitchen table partner, we send an audio Bible study via email every, uh, every other week. And you can listen to that and maybe take some encouragement for a few minutes every other week. Uh, the way to become a kitchen table partner is to go to, uh, to open line radio.org. You can click there where it talks about becoming a kitchen table partner, or you can call (888) 644-7122. And we so appreciate it. Let's, let's uh keep talking about the book here.
00:20:15
S2: Yes. How should Christians think about Israel? Your new book that is just launching this week, uh, earlier, I want to follow up on something because earlier you talked about, uh, ethnic Israel, kind of, uh, you know, there's people who talk about a differentiation between ethnic Israel and spiritual Israel. You talk about this in the book. Help us to understand is there a is there a distinction between those who would be ethnically Jewish and those who, I don't know, religiously or spiritually would be Israel? The Scripture make that kind of distinction.
00:20:52
S1: Well, one of the really important passages about that that people often turn to and I think misunderstand, uh, is Romans nine six now just up at the outset. And there's another one that we'll talk about, too. Uh, Galatians 616 but, uh, Romans nine six, uh, let me just before even saying that, let me just say that in the New Testament, the word Israel is used 73 times. It is always used of people who are ethnically Jewish. Okay. It's never used of a Gentile. Now, uh, I'm not saying that Gentiles aren't Incorporated into the New Covenant promises or anything like that when they believe in Jesus, the Messiah of Israel. But the word Israel is never applied to Gentiles. Here's the verse that people like to cite, uh, Romans nine six. But it's not as though the Word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel are Israel. Uh, and what they do is they say, see, you may be descended from the people of Israel, but if you don't believe in Jesus, you're not Israel. So the Gentiles who believe in Jesus are the true Israel. That's not what that verse is saying. In fact, most New Testament scholars who are even replacement, that believe the church have replaced Israel. They'll say, oh no, what that's saying is the truest Israel, the Israel that that's most, most Israel, I guess you could say, are the Jewish people who do believe in Jesus, uh, The Messianic Jews, the the remnant of Israel, as Paul calls them in Romans 11. Uh, the Jewish believers, they're the truest of all Israel. And the way I would look at it is, you know, we often talk about moody students, but a real moody student does all the homework, does all the reading, and even goes to all the basketball games and and you say, yeah, but how about the others that aren't going to the basketball games and maybe only does 50% of the reading for his courses or her courses, right. Are they moody students still? Yeah. Yeah, but but the the real moody students are the ones that do all those things. And that's what Paul's doing here. He's saying that, you know, if you're a descendant from Israel, but if you're going to be real Israel, true Israel, the most Israel, it's not enough just to be ethnically descended from Israel, but spiritually related to the Messiah of Israel. And that's the true Israel, the truest, I guess you would say. And I think that's why. And it's not just me saying that. That's I'd say the prevailing interpretation, even among those who believe in the church, that the church has replaced Israel. They recognize it's about ethnic Jewish people who believe in Jesus. Uh, so that's one passage.
00:23:52
S2: It doesn't create this. Or maybe it maybe there is this distinction where, uh, someone can be ethnically Jewish, and yet they're not a part of, uh, how would we say it? God's family, God's kingdom, or, you know, because they need to be saved by Jesus Christ. Is there that kind of a distinction?
00:24:12
S1: Well, I would say, first of all, when we think about the fatherhood of God. Okay. Uh, the scriptures teach that God is the father of creation. We he teaches that he's the father of Israel, uh, ethnic Israel. Uh, and, uh, but then there's a spirit. He's the spiritual father of those who believe in Jesus. And, uh, Jewish people who don't believe are part of creation. So God is their father. Uh, they're part of Israel. So God is their father in that sense. But spiritually, he is not. That's why we have to proclaim the gospel, and it's why we have to help Jewish people understand that the Messiah of Israel is come, and that he died for us and rose again. And all people are called to believe in him, not just Gentiles. So I think that's that's the distinction that I would make. But if you're going to be the truest Israel, then you're not. You not only have God as your father of creation, as your father of of Israel, but the father spiritually, he's having been redeemed by Jesus. That's why Paul calls them the truest Israel. Uh, and there in Romans nine six. Hope you're enjoying our conversation about how should Christians think about Israel. This new book. So glad that we're getting to talk about it, but we will be back to further discuss it in just a bit. So stay with us. You're listening to Open Line with Michael Ray Dolnick and my guest host today, Cisco Cotto. Stay with us. We'll be right back. I'm so grateful that the Far Eastern Broadcasting Company partners with Open Line to bring you the weekly Febc mailbag. Far Eastern Broadcasting Company is a terrific organization. They bring the good news to people via media and personal engagement. Check out the Febc podcast until All Have Heard, featuring Ed Cannon, president of Febc, by going to Febc. That's Febc. Support. Welcome back to Open Line. So glad to be with you today. There's no calls today because it's a pre-recorded interview. I'm here with my friend Cisco Cotto, who's the associate professor of pastoral studies at Moody Bible Institute. And we're talking about my new book, How Should Christians Think About Israel? We're going to continue the conversation right here.
00:26:53
S2: Let's talk about another verse that you discuss in the book. The book is how should Christians think about Israel? And you touched on it a moment ago. Galatians 616, May peace come to all those who follow this standard and mercy to the Israel of God. Now there's is there any controversy over how you interpret that verse, or is that pretty straight up?
00:27:16
S1: Yeah. The there's some people who want to take that conjunction there where it says and to the Israel of God Odd as sort of an explanatory where it says Even the Israel of God. So may peace come to everyone who holds this rule, every believer who believes in justification by faith. Right? Yeah. Uh, to everyone who agrees with me, Paul says, be peace and mercy and even to the Israel of God. Meaning that if you believe, if you believe in Jesus, Jew or Gentile, you're the Israel of God. I don't think that's what it's saying. I think there was a teacher at Dallas Seminary many, many years ago as Lewis Johnson who wrote an article about this. He says, you know, always take the simplest, uh, grammatical construction and the simplest one there is. And so peace and mercy to all who hold this rule and additionally, on the Israel of God. Well, who is that? I think what he is saying there is that I know that the people who have been saying that a person has to be circumcised, that a person has to. Convert to Judaism before they can believe in Jesus. Those legalists that were troubling the Galatians, he's saying, uh, he's obviously repudiating that in the book of Galatians. Then he calls for peace and mercy to anyone who who agrees with him and to the Jewish believers, the remnant of Israel, the faithful like Paul, like the apostles, like all those who believe in justification by faith and have not become legalists in calling for the, uh, to have, uh, convert to Judaism. So he's actually talking about the Jewish believers who are staying fast to Orthodox teaching, to the true teaching of Scripture. And that's what it's all in a conjunction. And that's what makes the most sense, simplest meaning, uh, makes perfect sense that Paul would want to give them an encouragement that I'm not I'm not blasting all these Jews. I'm only blasting the ones who are becoming legalists, the ones that are being faithful to Scripture. I want to give a special blessing to them of peace and mercy to them.
00:29:31
S2: We've touched quite a bit on New Testament passages, and you get into all those in the book in a little more detail. But there's also Old Testament passages as well. One is the Abrahamic Covenant from Genesis 12. This is when we touched on this a little earlier, as far as as blessing. But let me read this. There's just a few verses. Uh, the Lord said to Abram, go out from your land, your relatives, and your father's house, to the land that I will show you. I will make you into a great nation. I will bless you. I will make your name great, and you will be a blessing. I will bless those who bless you. I will curse those who treat you with contempt. And all the peoples on earth will be blessed through you. Uh, that that's not a covenant that seems as though it has been fulfilled. Right where we would say that's that's done. Or on the other hand, to what we discussed earlier or is being fulfilled solely through the church. That seems like something ongoing through the descendants of Abraham.
00:30:32
S1: It's some people want to say, well, it's just a blessing for Abraham. God says, you, Abraham. But then he repeats it to Abraham's descendants, particularly Jacob. Then in numbers 24, some people have argued, and I think, uh, that that he repeats it to all Israel. So, uh, the point is that the blessing for blessing and curse for curse principle is not limited just to Abraham. And now there are others who want to say, well, now the church is Israel. But I don't think the scriptures teach that. So this this principle is true. But what about when Israel does something wrong? Does God still look out for them? I think it's so interesting that in the very next paragraph, right after this passage about the covenant that God made with Abraham. There's a famine in the land. And what does Abraham do? He goes down to Egypt, and the first thing he does is he lies to Pharaoh or tells a half truth, which is a whole lie. Uh, he says that Sarah is his sister, right? His relative. And and she is, but she's also his wife. Pharaoh takes her into his harem. He is, in a sense, cursing Abraham, the promised seed, that God made the promise of a seed that God made to Abraham being totally threatened here. And what does what happens? God sends plagues upon Pharaoh and his household. It sort of foreshadows what happens in the book of Exodus when Pharaoh oppresses Israel. Then God sends plagues. And so instead, Pharaoh, when he figures out what's going on, he he gets rid of Abraham, sends him home. But what did he do? He gives him the wealth, all this wealth to take with him, just like the Egyptians were going to do when they give him the wealth of Egypt when the Israelites are leaving. And so it seems to me what this is saying is, even when Israel isn't perfect, uh, they don't have to be perfect. God still is going to carry out this policy of blessing for blessing and curse for curse. Uh, that seems like what this is saying right here in Genesis 12. And you see it through the rest of Scripture. What happens to Haman? Uh, in the book of Esther? The curse that he planned for Mordecai falls on him. Uh, the curse that the nations in Persia were going to bring upon the people of Israel falls on those who planned it. And I think that's so crucial, because even in the book of Esther, why isn't God's name mentioned? Because it's showing his providence that even when Israel forgot God, God didn't forget them. He's still faithful to them. And so those are some of the reasons that I think that this principle still holds true. And you could look at it in history as well.
00:33:26
S2: As we watch the news, listen to the news, as we touched on earlier, I mean, October 7th, ever since then, Israel and Gaza. I mean, they're in the news every single day. And so one of the things that leaves Christians conflicted, and I think one of the one of the ways this book is most helpful is in understanding how a Christian should view Israel today. The the nation of Israel, maybe when compared or contrasted with the biblical Kingdom of Israel or the Jewish people more generally, because there's help us with that, because there's a lot of Christians that say, do I have to go along with everything that the nation of Israel does today in order to be a blessing to God's people, or is that not the case?
00:34:14
S1: Uh, well. it seems to me that it's it's important to know one thing because people are saying are are the people of Israel today, the Jewish people and the nation of Israel? Is it the same as or the state of Israel? Is it the same as Biblical Israel? Before we talk about the other stuff, is how are they different? How are they the same? Well, today modern Israel is secular, and obviously biblical Israel was a theocracy. Uh, today, uh, modern Israel is a democracy. Biblical Israel was a monarchy. So they're not exactly the same. But biblical Israel is the nation state of the Jewish people that God promised them. The only indigenous people ever to govern themselves in that land were the Jewish people and remain so today. There's never been an indigenous people there that govern them, other than the Jewish people that govern themselves? Every other government they've ever had has been from the outside. The only indigenous indigenous government was the Jewish governments. And today the modern state of Israel is the nation state of the Jewish people. And so, therefore, I would say they're not exactly the same, but in terms of being the nation state, they are the same. And, uh, so do I have to support the government of Israel? I don't think that, uh, even Israelis always support the government of Israel. Some people say, well, the government of Israel isn't perfect. I you know, I do know that the United States government isn't perfect either. In fact, show me one government that is. Uh, and so the point is you it's not saying I agree with every policy, every action of the current government or any government of Israel. But there's more to it than that. I think that we can disagree. And listen, I have relatives in Israel. They're out protesting regularly against the government. But they are. They love Israel. They love their home country. They they are supportive of the country, of the nation while maybe disagreeing with the government. And I think that they're some of the the caveats that I would have about if you're going to disagree with the government, the first caveat I would have is disagreement doesn't mean delegitimize. In other words, to say there shouldn't be a state of Israel. Uh, because if you're going to wait for a perfect state of Israel, you're never going to have it. You're never going to have a perfect United States, either. So we don't delegitimize America if we disagree with the government. Oh, we shouldn't have a state of the United States of America. No. And so and that's what some people do. They say, well, Israel doesn't have a right to exist. We should never delegitimize the self-determination of the Jewish people, which is what Israel is a self-determined self-determination in their ancient homeland. Uh, secondly, we shouldn't apply double standards to Israel. Uh, I think there so often that people are making Israel live up to a standard that no other Western democracy lives up to. If we even see how Israel fights wars, they fight it in a way that has such a higher standard of ethics. Now, are there people who do things wrong? Absolutely. It's war and they're fallen human beings. But in terms of principles of the the way Israel fights these wars, they do it with a higher ethical standard, uh, even than Western democracies. We shouldn't apply double standards to Israel. Third, we shouldn't, uh, demonize Israel. There are people who, Whatever Israel does, it's wrong. The presumption is that what Israel does is wrong. They demonize the state so we can disagree with the government. I had someone just last week come up to me and basically say that if if you support Israel, that means that you're supporting a terrible person like Benjamin Netanyahu. Well, listen, I may or may not agree with Netanyahu, but he's not the epitome of evil, which is the way that they were putting it. That's demonizing Israel. And then lastly, and this is important, we shouldn't allow when we disagree based on deceit. We shouldn't disagree based on deceit. In others, there's all these lies being propagated, uh, particularly Holocaust inversion, where, uh, Israel is being accused of genocide, something they are not doing. Israel is accused of, uh, creating a famine. That's not happened. It's funny how this war just ended. And all of a sudden, oh, there really is no famine. Uh, and there never was. So I think that's my caveats for, uh, this this thing, uh, is that, uh, I guess we can disagree with the government, but we have to be cautious enough. When we come back, we'll talk more about the book, how Christians should think about Israel. I'm here with Cisco Cotto. I'm Michael Redding. Stay with us. We'll be right back on open Line. With Israel constantly in the headlines and anti-Semitism rising around the globe, many Christians are wondering how to respond. Should we support the State of Israel? How's the church relate to Jewish people today? My new book, How Should Christians Think About Israel, provides clear, scripture based answers. We'll explore Israel's unique identity and ongoing role in God's plan. Request your copy with a gift of any amount. Call (888) 644-7122 or visit online radio. Welcome back to Open Line. I'm Michael Ray. I'm so glad that you're listening in today. And I did want to, uh, mention to you that, uh, we're talking about this book, how should Christians think about Israel that I wrote? I'm grateful that we have a chance to talk about it. I'm here with Cisco Cotto, but one of the questions that came up earlier was the need to tell Jewish people that the Messiah has come, and that forgiveness is in him. And a lot of people say, I would really like to do that, but I'm just not sure how to talk to Jewish people about Jesus. Well Chosen People Ministries, one of our partners here in ministry, they want to help you do that. They've provided a book for Open Line listeners, it's called introducing your Jewish friends to the Messiah, and it's available to you at no cost. All you have to do is go to our website, Open Line Radio, and scroll down till you see the link that says Free Gift from Chosen People Ministries. Click on that and it'll take you to a page where you can sign up for your very own copy of How to Introduce Your Jewish Friends to the Messiah. Uh, and now we'll go back and we'll talk more about this book, uh, which is how should Christians think about Israel?
00:41:40
S2: Michael, uh, we I just want to touch on something that we talked about earlier, because I just want to make sure there's a clear distinction. Should Christians view the modern state of Israel in a similar way to how, uh, maybe another nation would view an ally? You know, we're we're partners. We're for each other. We're here to support each other. But that doesn't mean we agree on every single policy. And yet the disagreement on that policy or this policy or that, you know, way you're doing this or that doesn't mean we're no longer allies or partners. Is that a way for Christians to think about Israel, the modern state of Israel?
00:42:20
S1: Yeah. Well, I think we should we need to think of Israel as our strongest ally in the Middle East. Uh, and I but that's political, not necessarily biblical. Uh, I did see that, uh, Hugh Hewitt, a, uh, someone who thinks biblically very often but is a political commentator, wrote that Israel is he just recently wrote this, that Israel is in a column. Israel is the strongest ally the United States has, maybe in the world, if not in the Middle East. And I think that's important for us to remember, but we don't always agree. But what I'll tell you what concerns me is just recently At Founders Week. I talked to individuals. Uh, not speakers, obviously, but individuals who are present. And they have heard such evil about Israel. Things that really misconstrued, unfair, untrue. And they're ready to just throw the Jewish people overboard. Uh, also, just recently, uh, very influential podcaster had a neo-Nazi on his program. Uh, he, he himself said, I hate, uh, Christian Zionists, Zionism just being the belief that Jewish people have the right to self-determine, uh, their life in their own homeland. I hate Christian Zionists, Zionists more than anyone, and I mean more than Hamas, more than Nazis more. And so I see this erupting anti-Semitism, which I don't even want to use the word anti-Semitism anymore. Uh, my son really challenged me about that. The word anti-Semitism, which means Jew hatred, was developed by someone who hated Jews, and he wanted to make it sound more scientific. So he took the word judenhass, which means Jew hatred. And he came up with the word anti-Semitism. My son said we should never use it. We should never clean it up. Uh, and, uh, I kind of think maybe he's right. Uh, that Jew hatred is erupting in the United States. It's erupting around the world, but it's erupting on the not just the political left, but the political right and among evangelicals. And if there's something that we can learn from this book, is that we people who believe God's Word need to be the loudest voices in opposing this movement instead of embracing it.
00:45:01
S2: There's the that that kind of active participation. Is there also? I'm thinking Ephesians six. Our battle is not against flesh and blood. Do we need to remember? Hey there, there is another realm at war with God's people. We need to be regularly, deeply in prayer for all of these elements that you're talking about.
00:45:26
S1: Oh, I absolutely think so. Uh, we happen, you and I, we both know Janet Parshall. That's. She wrote to me, uh, just today before this recording and said, this is a spiritual warfare. That's what she said. Uh, the rye, the return of anti-Semitism as a mass movement, uh, even among evangelicals. That's spiritual warfare. And we who believe in the Messiah, the Messiah. Jesus. Uh, we need to stand with him against this hatred of his people. Uh, thank you for that question. And by the way, uh, Cisco, thank you so much for joining me. And thanks to Tricia, uh, for doing such a great job producing and engineering today. Uh, that's the program for today. When? Uh, next week, we'll be back with your calls and questions. Keep reading the Bible. We'll talk about it next week. By the way, check out our website, openlibrary.org. You'll see everything you're looking for there. Open Line with Doctor Michael is a production of Moody Radio, a ministry of Moody Bible Institute.
