FBA 005 Paul Benn: Gaining Diverse Experience to Deliver Value

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Joe Newbert: Hey, everyone is
Joe. Welcome to another episode
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of the future business analyst
podcast. My guest today is Paul
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Benn, a self employed business
analyst, a coach, a mentor, and
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a conference organizer of
capability. Dr. Welcome to the
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show, Paul.
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Paul Benn: i Thanks, Joe. It's
good to be here.
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Yeah, thanks for inviting me.
I'm I was surprising when you
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said, I've got a voice and I
thought of myself as having a
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voice. So yeah, thank you for
inviting me. And it's good to
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see you again and be a part of
what you do.
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Joe Newbert: Yeah, no, it is
nice. I appreciate you, you
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Braving this, this pot, you
know, it can be a little bit
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daunting, sort of trying to put
our ideas out there,
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particularly for something as
unknown as the future. So yeah,
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I'm glad you're happy to have a
spin of this. And we'll see what
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we come up with at the end of
the episode. To start us off,
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though, tell me how did you get
into business analysis? What's
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your backstory?
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Paul Benn: I actually think my,
the way I've gone to business is
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pretty boring, because it's
probably the way that most of us
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get into business analysis. And
that is by default. And that is
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a was working for old mutual in
Cape Town. Okay, as a portfolio
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administrator didn't have a clue
about business analysis at that
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point in time, what it is, is
what it is not. And I was then
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asked to work on a project to
implement a new reporting system
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from overseas, and then I
essentially filled the role of
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business analyst on that project
together with a colleague of
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mine. And yeah, we implemented
the project, we then went over
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to UK, probably spent more time
in pubs and actually did in the
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office, but we got some work.
And, and then came back and
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there was offer say, Well, we
think you should be in business.
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And it's like, okay, what what
is it? And then that's, that's
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how I got into it. And and,
yeah, and the mom was speaking
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coaching people, the more I
read, I think it's the way the
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majority of us get into it. You
know, it's not something, you
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know, you go to uni and you, you
learn, I'm going to be a bit
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present, you go, you go study
information, manager or
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whatever. And then, and then you
end up later on in life becoming
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MBA.
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Joe Newbert: Yeah, no, it is it
is. Yeah, it is a sort of
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similar story. For many of us.
Interesting. I mean, I do I do
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quite a bit of sort of guest
lecturing at universities. And I
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must say, I feel like that route
from university to business
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analysis is becoming a little
more trodden than it has in the
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past. But, but still, you're
right, I feel like you've come
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from the left sort of business
into this profession, where you
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come from the right, you come
from sort of, I don't know, a
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development or test sort of
deeper down the SDLC. And then
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into it. But yeah, it's often
accidental, isn't it? And I'm
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assuming you were sort of SME
slash ba that was?
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Paul Benn: Yeah. So you said, I
mean, I had become the SME on
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the project together my
colleague, and that's, that's
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how we would then try and move
crossed into business that it
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probably wasn't only because of
any three years later, that I
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actually formed me waiting did
it qualification in business
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analysis at company that should
have mentioned in your in your?
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Joe Newbert: Tell me, how many
years have you been in this
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game? What sort of numbers are
we talking?
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Paul Benn: I actually was
looking at this because I'm
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busy. I update my LinkedIn
profile. And it's 28. Just over
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28 years now.
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Joe Newbert: Okay. 28 years,
right?
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Paul Benn: Yeah. And you can
still 16 You met.
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Joe Newbert: How does that work?
But I mean, let's just say
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that's a chunk. Right? That's a
good, that's a good chunk. So
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talk to me about the evolution
that you've seen over that 28
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years. I'm interested to hear
your perspective on this. And
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the reason I say your
perspective, it's because of
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that SME coming from business.
Often when I speak to people
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who've approached this
profession from the other side,
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let's say programming or
something. They describe it in a
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particular way. And I'm
interested to see if, if you've
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got similar observations having
come from a sort of different
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source to them. What's what
Steve? What what evolution have
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you seen?
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Paul Benn: It's quite, that's
quite an interesting question. I
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was hosting a podcast last week,
the ego from Australia. And he
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was talking about specialization
was generalization actually
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triggered this? The answer to
this question, actually, because
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when I started out as a
business, I was a SME in
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reporting. Okay. And so I
started out as a reporting
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specialist, that was, what I
was, the first 10 years of my
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career as a business analyst was
reporting. That's all I did. And
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I then went to go study at the
nameless company, and to be a
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business analyst. And that
construct opened my world a
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little bit more likeable.
There's a lot more to this craft
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of business analysis than just
me configuring a system,
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understanding what to use new
designing report putting in
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place, and so forth and so on.
But the problem was that I had
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become stuck in the role that it
wasn't because I was seen as
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reporting specialists and that's
all I was seen as, and I wasn't
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removed off anything else,
because reporting was was their
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bread and butter. I then got an
offer at a company called back
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then was called friend sources
now called Making fan services.
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And I think they've just changed
the name again. But I remember
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having 10 years at our mutual
that point and really kind of
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coming on. And I only mentioned
that because I think it's really
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important for for bas out there.
When I think about the career
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progression. Remember, my
managers time, led Howard Smith
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saying, quote, If you don't put
your resignation, my desperate,
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no doubt I'm gonna kick you out.
amok, I was like, what about
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that bed? He said, No. He said,
No, if you want to grow, you've
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got to get out. You've got to go
and experience the world. And so
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I then went across to do to make
you find services. And I started
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working. I started with
importing, but I got involved in
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other projects as well. And that
was the move from specialist
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into generalization. And I think
for the next few years, that's
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exactly what I did. I started to
generalize and then start to
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spread out, spread out, Spread
out, spread out a lot more. In
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in that process as well.
Starting Oh, Bucha remember, my
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background is not it at all. I
had no IT background. I think I
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mean, it I've done it to uni was
computer systems, you know,
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remember those big floppy disks.
Sticking? That's what I got
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taught on on that? I did one
program was in COBOL. And never
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got to compile a hand and I
said, I don't care. And but you
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know, yeah, I'm not a coder.
I've got some I've got SQL
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skills. But that has been self
taught as I've gone along. So
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once I've studied businesses,
and I've got my certification,
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low skills, I've learned is been
just trying things and doing
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some sort of peripheral stuff
and working out what works for
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me and what doesn't work for me.
I think the next big interesting
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change for me in businesses was
we when Ryan foster approached
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me to run the webinars in South
Africa. That was the next big
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day for me because that
volunteer process started and
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kicked off another aspect of my
career because then suddenly, I
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saw, okay, there's a lot more to
what I already know. I thought I
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knew everything. There's a lot
more to what I already know. And
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then the certification, things
started to kick into me into me
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now, I don't say to everyone go
and do certification. I think
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you've got to have a really good
reason and you are for
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certification. For me, I knew I
wanted to go into that that kind
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of thought leadership where I
can I can influence people in
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their careers. And so for me
certification was a way of
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getting better that st credit
credit but he said, You know,
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I've got something behind me
kind of understand the process.
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And together with all the
experience, I can do this And
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then that kind of kicked into
the next process of opening up
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to international opportunities,
which is when that I made the
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point to move to New Zealand
after I've made an offer in New
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Zealand. And I think that's also
important because that
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evolution, Maitreya kind of was
sparked by a conversation with
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my brother, who lives in New
Zealand as well. And he said,
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poor stop thinking yourself as a
citizen of South Africa, but as
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a citizen of the global world.
And that was way before we had,
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you know, we teams and zooms,
and having online meetings and
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virtual meetings was a big
thing. It was, it was, it was
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the, but it wasn't a big thing
as it is now. And so that was
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interesting, because as soon as
I started thinking, that mom, my
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whole sort of viewpoint of life,
you know, that I will always
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work here always been this place
always in that will stay the
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same. And I think that's also
led to me, now being where I am
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today, in that I, I have become
self employed. And I work across
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the world now. So, you know, I
can I do some work in Australia,
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I do some work up in Auckland,
and Wellington and and it's
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really become that bigger space
for me to be able to be used my
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talents in a particular way, and
to productize what I do, rather
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than tied to a fixed role in a
fix system and a fixed way of
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doing things. Yeah. So in that,
I mean, I could go on just talk
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forever. But in a nutshell,
that's kind of my obligation. We
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Joe Newbert: Yeah, yeah. And,
you know, everybody's journey is
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different, when I was sort of
trying to bounce off what I was
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trying to hear, you know, sort
of, I'm always interested about
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how people have seen business
analysis develop, like, over
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their careers, right, because
because things do shift and
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change, but we all have
different perspectives of it as
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well. And what I typically hear
from the people who did start in
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programming, is that they, they
sort of perceive that this
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profession has moved closer to
the business over the years. And
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I don't dispute that I think, I
think it has, but then it's
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interesting to speak to you, as
somebody who came from the
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business and like the little
things that I heard you drop in
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there was like, I needed to get
a bit more technical, I sort of
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had a dabble in COBOL. I know a
little bit of SQL. So you've got
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these people who are sort of
moving across the one way, and
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there's their strengths is
technical. So they're trying to
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get that business. But for you
because your strength was
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business, you're trying to get
that technical, which sort of
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shows that like the evolution of
this thing is different for
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different people. And sort of
where they came from. But But
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one thing that you said in
there, I want to sort of let's
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let's sort of pull this back now
into talking about the future
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rather than the past. And
perhaps the profession more
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broadly. I feel like you gave a
great example of that. And you
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made me think of the word
typecast. So when you were first
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employed, and you were this
reporting SME, and you got
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pulled into business analysis,
and you were a business
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analysis, reporting, SME, right.
And, and you were told to leave
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but you were typecast. Right? Do
you think business analysts
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broadly, a typecast? When you
think about what you know, what
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do other people think about the
profession? Are we sort of
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stereotyped are we typecast as
well?
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Paul Benn: I think we are
typecast but I think a typecast
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is coming from a
misunderstanding what we do. So
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I'm not sure what when it's like
it's left I haven't been used.
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But one of the things that that
I've noticed yet in in New
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Zealand is that business,
particularly typecast as either
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documenters or let's bundle all
these tasks that we haven't got
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time to do and give it over to
business analysts. And what I am
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seeing and was interesting, he
made a comment that business
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being drawn there I'm seeing
business being drawn closer to
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the business
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then than anything else, and I
think is a bit of a danger in
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net.
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Because we if you're working on
on site, like an IT related
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project, you kind of need to be
in the middle between the two,
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because you need to be helping
and I'm not going to use it that
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old cliche about the bridge
because a few of you But, yeah,
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so we've, we've got to kind of
sit in the middle and be helping
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these two sides to come together
and understand each other. And
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when we get drawn more to the
business side, I think we, we
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kind of lose the focus of an
understanding what's happening
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in the technical side. And I'll
give you an example of that. So
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we know that, you know, the next
revolution that seems to be on
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the rise is AI and, and all of
that. Now, what seems
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interesting to me is how many
bas are not actually picking up
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up on that with their circles
the business side, that they're
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not got the eyes and focus on
what's happening in the
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technology world that I can
bring into the business and help
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the business with.
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Joe Newbert: But don't I mean,
if I look at the kinds of things
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that are posted about AI comes
from a lot of people from a lot
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of different industries, a lot
of different specialities. It
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could be marketing, for example,
or it could be some assembly in
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a sort of manufacturing space.
So I do feel that AI is probably
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something that is visible to
everybody. I would suggest and
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not just IT folk, did you see it
differently?
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Paul Benn: Oh, no, no, I don't
see. No, I agree the word of
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what I think the point I was
trying to make is, how few bas
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of all tapping into the AI.
Think about that, that really
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that fabrico posted. Yeah, we
had that. And I'm not sure
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whether it was a staged or
whether it was actual Chatbot.
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But it doesn't matter that the
concept was there. And how he
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used that so effectively, to use
AI to help him as a business
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analyst. Yeah, yeah. Not what I
picked up in that video is he
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didn't, he didn't pass on his
skills to an AI. Machine. He
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actually employed in US
conceptual thinking. He asked
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questions, use some observation
of the data that came up. Here,
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he had a system thinking
approach to it, though, he would
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ask the Chatbot give me this
kind of information, and include
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the filing filing. And so he was
still using new business skills,
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he was using a chatbot to be
more effective in using the
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skills. Now, the thing is, what
I'm seeing is that and I've had
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a few conversations now,
interesting. One organization
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here in Wellington has banned
the use of chat duty GBG in
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organizations. And the point is
like, Yeah, but we're scared of
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data loss and data breaches and
all that. Well. Yeah. Okay, that
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that is that is a real risk. But
instead of banning it, how do we
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use it? effectively? And
properly? And safely, safely?
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Yeah. So in talking to do other
businesses, but a lot of them
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now Well, I'm not using I'm not
using any AR I'm not using the
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chat? GBG? I'm not, because I
think it's unethical. And
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because I think it's, you know,
it's not my work and all that
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and, and that's why I think that
we just need to kind of like
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really make sure that they can
tune with what's happening on
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the ITA, you don't have to be
technical, you don't have to be
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a program. But just
understanding the concepts out
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there and the use cases, and how
you could apply it within within
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your, your, your current role. I
think one of the one of the
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things has been very successful
in my career is the number of
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different industries I've worked
in. And that is that I've worked
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in defense of working half I've
worked in logistics, I've worked
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in banking, finance investments,
I've worked in health, I've
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worked in local government,
national government, insurance,
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and that. But the one common
thing is that I found across all
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them, is that what I've learned
from each of them, I can bring
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into the others and start to
apply that that knowledge. Yeah.
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And you know, and it's the same
concept. Yeah, it's being able
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to kind of look at what's
happening in our space and say,
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What can I do within my
organization to help me and the
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business and coming back to you
and and I'm waffling. But yeah,
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but but to come back to your to
your, your earlier comment about
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AI coming out of marketing and
all that. Yes. 100% should be,
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but also remember years of the
business, your fundamental role
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is to influence decisions. I
know the Bible talks about
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change, but you really go down
deep into it. It's about
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influencing decisions about
influencing strategy about
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influencing people to take a
direction to make a decision. So
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you should be at the forefront
of that. Yeah.
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Joe Newbert: Yeah. There's a lot
in there's a couple of things I
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want to jump back to let's jump
back first of all, I want to
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talk about you say you've worked
in a number of different
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industries, I really like that.
Something I can relate to, I
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have to and I felt one thing it
gave me was context
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independence. And what I mean by
that is, it actually doesn't
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matter what projects you put me
in what industry that you put me
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in, I've sort of got the pure
skills that I need to be able to
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do a problem solving job, and
influencing a decision kind of
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job and enabling change kinds of
job, have you found as well,
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that that sort of, like having
having had that breadth of
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experience, and it actually just
almost just lifts up those core
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skills for you?
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Paul Benn: It does, and laughs
In my role, as part of the
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reason why I've gone independent
as a contractor. So because I
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find more and more that I've
been brought in as almost like
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an advisor. Okay, you know, how
do you think we should tackle
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this? How do you think we should
solve this? How do you? What's
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your thoughts? You know, those
those are typical kind of
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questions that that I'm getting
now as opposed to, in the past?
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Can you do a requirements
document on the filing wall? Can
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you find out what the
requirements are? This is not,
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it's more the question. And the
way of being and being involved
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is different. So, you know, it's
interesting that I do very
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little requirements, document
writing now. And more business
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and as consulting. How can we
not organizations kind of figure
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out their direction and, and
that kind of stuff. And I think
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that that not only because of
the breadth of the industry that
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I've worked in, and being able
to apply different concepts
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across the industry, but also
because of the years experience
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I've got working in industry.
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Joe Newbert: Yeah. But, you
know, I want to be so bold as to
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say that, and I might not be
making this as explicit for like
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this future business analysts
kind of questions that I've been
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asking. But but but one of the
things that does, I almost feel
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like, you're saying it in a
different way to what everybody
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else has said it. So other
people have talked about, you
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know, in the future, there's
going to be this place where the
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business analyst is that trusted
advisor. And then what I'm
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hearing you say is, you've
reached that point where you're
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not really doing requirements
specs anymore, you are advising
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business on some of those higher
levels, sort of, you know, like
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a consultant, basically. So then
I'm trying to spot well, what's
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the evidence, then? What what,
what is it that Paul's done, or
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Paul's doing, to be able to
reach that point where he has
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sort of positioned himself in
that space? And I mean, I'm, I
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look at it and go, Well, it's
the amount of experience isn't
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it? It's like, you're not
following a book, you're not
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following a methodology, you're
not following a process. All
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that typical stuff that be
business analysis is in
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organizations, I've actually
taken the best bits of that, and
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I'm applying them independently
of the context, it is just like,
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it doesn't matter what problem I
can walk into a room, I can help
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you solve a problem, no matter
what the problem, is that what
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you feel.
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Paul Benn: That's what I feel.
And, you know, I think it's less
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was the experience and behind
me, and the years experience,
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does have relevance, I don't
feel it's, it's, it's the top
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relevant thing, because I mean,
you can, you can get a BA,
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that's got just as much
experience as me, but actually
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doesn't really know how to use
that experience. So I think
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it's, it comes down to the work
that you do, it comes down to
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connecting with people, it comes
down to showing what your value
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is. And that's why I'm a very
big supporter of knowing your
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value as a BA, knowing what your
offer is very important. And it
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has a lot of like spin offs from
that, you know, because when you
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know your value, you know, what
kind of job you're gonna apply
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for, you can know what kind of
culture you want to work in, and
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all that kind of stuff. But to
come back to to, to, to the
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question about the future
business and analysis, I think,
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I think it's exactly that. I
think it's we business analysts
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are becoming those trusted
advisors, those people that have
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been employed, tried and tested,
frameworks, techniques to come
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up with with an answer. I went,
and I am going to use an example
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for governments. I think it is
probably the one area where the
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heavens used businesses enough.
You know, I would like to see
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either every minister in any
government either having had
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business analyst training or
worked as a business or have a
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business analyst senior business
sits right next to them, your
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system you're talking about
have, you know what? You know,
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and helping them. Think in
government. If you just think at
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some of the solutions that
government come up with a
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marketing way we What were you
thinking? What we were talking
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earlier about a project that I
was working on, before we
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recorded this, you know, and
that's that's the thing is that
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that's where business needs to
start. It needs to go up to the
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very top political people and
making policies that will make
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the policies based on what the
understanding of the right
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problem. And moving down to the,
and also coming back to my
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earlier statement about business
business building by influencing
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decisions, that's where it
starts.
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Joe Newbert: Yeah. I'm laughing
particularly at your government
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example, many years ago, I had
the fortune to go up to Harare
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to introduce business analysis
to a bunch of guys in Zimbabwe,
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and that's where I met my dear
friends, Samuel zimbio, is now
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with you. In New Zealand, Ryan
Foster, and I went up actually,
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you mentioned Ryan earlier. But
Ryan and I went up and I
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remember, after the day, the
feedback was like the entire
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00:26:14,730 --> 00:26:19,470
room sort of 30 people said,
This is amazing. We can use this
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to change government and fix
this country. And I mean, I'm
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used to hearing feedback like
this will be great for
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processes, or we can fix that
returns policy or something.
381
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It's such a micro level. But
it's wonderful that, you know,
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we can actually use business
analysis to solve some really
383
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big sort of structural
organizational societal
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problems, really, it does have
that power. I'm going to make a
385
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bit of a statement rather than a
question here, because I've got
386
00:26:49,110 --> 00:26:51,870
another question that I've got
in mind for you as well. But But
387
00:26:51,870 --> 00:26:59,970
back to your back to your sort
of diverse experience. I read a
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00:26:59,970 --> 00:27:03,450
book a couple of years ago by a
guy called Franz Johansson
389
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called the Medici effect. And
it's about innovation. And and
390
00:27:06,720 --> 00:27:10,560
just broadly, in that book, he
sort of categorizes two kinds of
391
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innovation and the world's, you
know, calling out for
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innovation. And so I just want
to pick up on this, he talks
393
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about progressive innovation and
intersectional. Innovation,
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progression is sort of the
obvious one, it's like, there's
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this and then we can take it to
there. And then we can move it
396
00:27:32,310 --> 00:27:36,030
up. intersectional is when you
take things from different
397
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areas, and you bring them
together. And I feel like that's
398
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what you were saying as well.
And when you say you bring all
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these little bits and pieces
from all these different
400
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industries, and you're, you're
connecting some dots, and
401
00:27:46,050 --> 00:27:48,840
there's some dots that other
people don't see there, right?
402
00:27:48,840 --> 00:27:51,570
It? Do you feel that that gives
you a little bit of a step up as
403
00:27:51,570 --> 00:27:51,960
well.
404
00:27:53,549 --> 00:27:57,449
Paul Benn: It is, and it is
actually a fundamental be a
405
00:27:57,449 --> 00:28:01,379
skill, being able to relate
different pieces of information.
406
00:28:01,709 --> 00:28:05,399
Yeah, and build new concepts and
the ideas of that. And that's
407
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exactly what what we want to do
at the future is we want to see,
408
00:28:10,739 --> 00:28:15,749
Bas developing skills, is being
able to take different concepts
409
00:28:15,749 --> 00:28:18,899
and different ideas from the
past and from other jobs and
410
00:28:18,899 --> 00:28:23,519
from from even from other Bas
and other industries and say
411
00:28:23,519 --> 00:28:27,809
from Robins information
together, find the relationships
412
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between them, or even the way
there's conflict between
413
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information because even in
conflict, you can find valuable
414
00:28:35,339 --> 00:28:38,699
information, why is in conflict?
What do I learn from that
415
00:28:38,699 --> 00:28:42,179
conflict in a different
information? And then you start
416
00:28:42,179 --> 00:28:46,049
to build ideas upon the ideas.
And that is that is really a
417
00:28:46,049 --> 00:28:50,489
fundamental business and a
skill. Yeah. It's, and I think
418
00:28:50,489 --> 00:28:52,349
it's in general, I'm going to
just kind of go back to what
419
00:28:52,349 --> 00:28:56,369
you're saying. But when you went
to Harare, you seeking their
420
00:28:56,369 --> 00:29:01,919
business or system process?
Yeah, I think that's that's a
421
00:29:01,919 --> 00:29:04,979
big fundamental shift that needs
to happen, isn't it analysis is
422
00:29:04,979 --> 00:29:08,579
not just about process. It's not
just about the finding and
423
00:29:08,579 --> 00:29:11,819
modeling and doing a process.
It's so much more than that. And
424
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I think when again, talking
about the future, we need to get
425
00:29:14,999 --> 00:29:17,999
away from this idea, oh, we just
process motors, we just stopped
426
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from drivers or we just defined
processes with we have so much
427
00:29:22,349 --> 00:29:26,189
more when I just get an example
of being able to bring that
428
00:29:26,189 --> 00:29:29,309
information together and build
new ideas and concepts of it.
429
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Joe Newbert: Yeah. And I mean
similarly batter for ratio in
430
00:29:33,090 --> 00:29:40,410
his video. What I loved it in
particular, was the the use case
431
00:29:40,410 --> 00:29:43,680
itself. And the use case was a
business use case. It wasn't
432
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like an IT systems analysis use
case. It was actually affecting,
433
00:29:48,150 --> 00:29:51,540
impacting the business
experimenting. It was. I mean,
434
00:29:51,540 --> 00:29:54,900
he actually did a little sort of
a b test. In that little mock
435
00:29:54,900 --> 00:29:58,290
example of a process in
production. He touched
436
00:29:58,290 --> 00:30:02,100
production he made a decision In
production he had, he was that
437
00:30:02,100 --> 00:30:06,870
close to the business, that he
was influencing it, right, like
438
00:30:06,870 --> 00:30:09,150
there. And then. And I thought
that was wonderful because that
439
00:30:09,150 --> 00:30:13,620
really did actually even in that
that elevated the BA role to to
440
00:30:13,620 --> 00:30:15,990
like to aspire to so much more I
thought
441
00:30:17,190 --> 00:30:20,160
Paul Benn: I was just saying I
also realize we've gone back to
442
00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:23,070
the conversation is where's the
BS to the business? We're past
443
00:30:23,070 --> 00:30:26,880
it. It was, I think it was a it
was great that he was kind of
444
00:30:26,880 --> 00:30:30,750
sitting or that close to the to
the business, but he kind of was
445
00:30:30,750 --> 00:30:34,920
independent. In both sides, we
always say, don't look at the
446
00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:38,250
solution, until you understand
the problem. And the same thing
447
00:30:38,250 --> 00:30:41,250
you're done with the business.
Don't look to it until you you
448
00:30:41,250 --> 00:30:43,860
understand because the visible
will sway you according to the
449
00:30:43,860 --> 00:30:48,780
expectations in the paradigm.
And so what it particularly
450
00:30:48,780 --> 00:30:52,920
developers, sorry, developers
that we dislike you, but there
451
00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:55,320
was actually with the way things
are possible. What you can do is
452
00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:58,050
we can you kind of got to meet
the need to look at the problem
453
00:30:58,050 --> 00:31:01,470
or the need independently avoid
that. And that's I think, what
454
00:31:01,470 --> 00:31:04,140
what he did portray quite nicely
in that in that video.
455
00:31:04,379 --> 00:31:07,859
Joe Newbert: Yeah, he did. He
did indeed. I'm gonna, I'm just
456
00:31:07,859 --> 00:31:09,989
going to drop this one. I'm not
even going to try and do any
457
00:31:09,989 --> 00:31:14,819
kind of smooth segue here. Paul,
I'm just gonna go to some of
458
00:31:14,819 --> 00:31:18,479
your answers. Because I can see
the time. I'm not saying we're
459
00:31:18,509 --> 00:31:22,469
immediately rushed. But I do
want to make sure we discussed
460
00:31:22,469 --> 00:31:25,409
this before we go dropping the
title.
461
00:31:27,569 --> 00:31:34,079
Paul Benn: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah,
I think I think it's time for us
462
00:31:34,079 --> 00:31:42,989
to drop the title business
analysis. And the reason why I
463
00:31:42,989 --> 00:31:47,009
say that is that it's not really
about the title, it's about the
464
00:31:47,009 --> 00:31:53,729
skill to bring to the job. And
it's about the business skills,
465
00:31:53,729 --> 00:31:56,819
not about the role and the
talent that you have. And when
466
00:31:56,819 --> 00:32:00,089
you drop that title, it means
you could slot into various
467
00:32:00,089 --> 00:32:03,899
different roles and different
places and use your skills. And
468
00:32:03,899 --> 00:32:07,859
it kind of just broadens your
total horizon. And also your
469
00:32:07,859 --> 00:32:11,699
opportunity in the market to be
able to work anytime, at any
470
00:32:11,699 --> 00:32:17,159
day, you will, I didn't come
visit because I wanted to title,
471
00:32:18,029 --> 00:32:22,529
I can use that because it fitted
my personality of analytical
472
00:32:22,529 --> 00:32:28,409
thinking very well. So I go for
jobs, that have a lot of that
473
00:32:28,409 --> 00:32:32,939
kind of skill set that I can use
in it. So I think the titles are
474
00:32:32,939 --> 00:32:37,109
starting to restrict us. Because
you know, you will see the job,
475
00:32:37,289 --> 00:32:39,749
or must have a business address.
And it must have this in that
476
00:32:39,749 --> 00:32:42,509
way as it's really about the
skills and then we can start to
477
00:32:42,509 --> 00:32:44,999
go well, we can go work in the
marketing department or we can
478
00:32:44,999 --> 00:32:48,269
go work in government or we can
go working in the call center or
479
00:32:48,269 --> 00:32:51,179
whatever. It's not about the
role. It's not about the type.
480
00:32:51,209 --> 00:32:53,939
It's about what we have to offer
the value we have to offer.
481
00:32:55,319 --> 00:32:58,199
Joe Newbert: Before the show,
another thing we talked about
482
00:32:58,199 --> 00:33:01,949
was how I've got the easy job.
And I'm now going to showcase
483
00:33:02,009 --> 00:33:07,229
that I've got the easy job up a
bit by playing. Yeah, but
484
00:33:07,229 --> 00:33:11,249
curveballs devil's advocate,
like asking the hard questions,
485
00:33:11,249 --> 00:33:15,389
right. But I want to start off
by saying I don't disagree with
486
00:33:15,389 --> 00:33:20,849
you. Okay. I don't disagree with
you. One. I don't believe that
487
00:33:20,879 --> 00:33:24,869
business analysts have a
monopoly on business analysis,
488
00:33:24,899 --> 00:33:30,359
right? They are a set of skills
that are and these people are
489
00:33:30,359 --> 00:33:34,259
welcome to have them, right
execs perform business analysis,
490
00:33:34,259 --> 00:33:37,769
business owners perform business
analysis. Politicians like it
491
00:33:37,769 --> 00:33:40,829
like it is there. It's
ingrained. People don't know
492
00:33:40,829 --> 00:33:44,219
they're doing it, right. They
don't identify with it. But I'm
493
00:33:44,219 --> 00:33:48,569
happy that they do it. Right.
And I don't, you know, as I say,
494
00:33:48,569 --> 00:33:52,739
we don't have a monopoly. So I
agree with you is a mindset, I
495
00:33:52,739 --> 00:33:55,349
agree with you as a set of
skills, a set of tools and stuff
496
00:33:55,349 --> 00:34:01,109
like that, but I just worried
like, what or here's potentially
497
00:34:01,109 --> 00:34:04,499
what I might see, like, we're
going to have a job title. So if
498
00:34:04,499 --> 00:34:08,849
we lose this one, like society,
organizations are going to give
499
00:34:08,849 --> 00:34:12,719
us one, right? Like, you're
going to have a job title one
500
00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:16,109
way or another. So then that
might mean that we lose
501
00:34:16,109 --> 00:34:21,269
community. Like if there's no
business analyst, job title,
502
00:34:21,599 --> 00:34:24,779
then there's no business analyst
community because there's nobody
503
00:34:24,779 --> 00:34:29,399
to sort of talk about that
thing. You then end up joining
504
00:34:29,399 --> 00:34:32,819
another sort of community
because it'll be the community
505
00:34:32,819 --> 00:34:36,719
of the job title that you're in,
because there's equivalents of
506
00:34:36,749 --> 00:34:41,549
all these communities all over.
And also so that's one thing I
507
00:34:41,549 --> 00:34:43,919
feel we lose a sense of
community. We're gonna have a
508
00:34:43,919 --> 00:34:49,499
job title anyway. But the other
thing is, if people don't get us
509
00:34:49,499 --> 00:34:54,269
when we have got a job title,
what hope have we caught if
510
00:34:54,269 --> 00:34:56,159
we've got an invisible job
title?
511
00:34:59,219 --> 00:35:04,769
Paul Benn: Engineering co Oh, so
I wouldn't expect anything less
512
00:35:04,769 --> 00:35:11,849
from your job. So I think I
think when I say lose a job
513
00:35:11,849 --> 00:35:19,139
title, I don't I don't mean, you
know, that we don't have the
514
00:35:19,169 --> 00:35:22,529
title of business, I think I
think what I'm really referring
515
00:35:22,529 --> 00:35:26,789
to is, stop worrying about the
job title stop worrying about
516
00:35:27,029 --> 00:35:31,769
what are called a business or
whether or you know, and chasing
517
00:35:31,769 --> 00:35:35,789
after the job title. And, you
know, whether you senior lead,
518
00:35:36,659 --> 00:35:40,979
whatever, you know, I don't even
know, I very seldom even use the
519
00:35:40,979 --> 00:35:45,149
word legal CBA because I'm a
business consultant. That's it,
520
00:35:45,689 --> 00:35:49,709
you know. So I think, and I
totally agree with you, you
521
00:35:49,709 --> 00:35:54,479
know, if we do lose the words
business, we might lose a
522
00:35:54,479 --> 00:35:58,499
community, try to agree that
slight refining my answer, then
523
00:35:58,499 --> 00:36:03,299
saying like, I think it's, yeah,
you're right. Let's not use the
524
00:36:03,299 --> 00:36:08,069
word business. But let's also
not become hung up, that we need
525
00:36:08,069 --> 00:36:12,209
to have this title and this in
this role, let's rather be we
526
00:36:12,209 --> 00:36:16,499
more interested in the skills
and values we offer, and then we
527
00:36:16,499 --> 00:36:19,979
can start to move into areas
that need it.
528
00:36:20,310 --> 00:36:22,980
Joe Newbert: Yeah. I mean, what
will be really cool is like,
529
00:36:22,980 --> 00:36:27,240
let's seem to move into another
job title. And then you start to
530
00:36:27,240 --> 00:36:29,970
do some cool stuff. And people
are like, Oh, like that what you
531
00:36:29,970 --> 00:36:33,780
do Nago, that's business
analysis, you know, like, I'll
532
00:36:33,780 --> 00:36:37,350
tell you what I'm doing. But my
job titles may be something
533
00:36:37,350 --> 00:36:39,930
different. So you start to
identify the skill rather than
534
00:36:39,930 --> 00:36:42,870
identify the role. I think it'd
be fantastic. Because often you
535
00:36:42,870 --> 00:36:48,210
see people who are moving into a
different lien named job title,
536
00:36:48,570 --> 00:36:50,970
go with, what am I going to do
as a business analyst? It's
537
00:36:50,970 --> 00:36:53,610
like, well, you're not a
business analyst, you're moving
538
00:36:53,610 --> 00:36:57,330
into a different role. That role
probably requires some business
539
00:36:57,330 --> 00:37:01,080
analysis skills, which is why
you're moving into it. But
540
00:37:01,080 --> 00:37:04,260
there's going to be some other
stuff too, which is cool, right?
541
00:37:04,410 --> 00:37:07,860
More strings to your bow, bit
more content experience, bit
542
00:37:07,860 --> 00:37:11,220
more context independence, and
you start to grow, right?
543
00:37:12,300 --> 00:37:15,840
Paul Benn: Yeah, exactly. And
I've certainly I'm seeing that
544
00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:20,580
in my role now. Are we bringing
a skill appears? Oh, what's
545
00:37:20,580 --> 00:37:24,510
that? Okay, let's use that, you
know, I had recently on a
546
00:37:24,510 --> 00:37:28,770
project that I have bought in,
in, in in a new kind of way of
547
00:37:28,770 --> 00:37:34,560
just looking at lessons learned
in a retrospective. And, and
548
00:37:34,560 --> 00:37:37,470
once it wasn't new to me, and
it's not new to the business, it
549
00:37:37,470 --> 00:37:41,790
was new to the business, you
know, but it certainly kind of,
550
00:37:41,790 --> 00:37:45,690
and they've adopted that way of
doing lessons learned. So that's
551
00:37:45,720 --> 00:37:51,210
an example. I think it's also
here, maybe good to mention it,
552
00:37:51,240 --> 00:37:53,790
because we're talking about the
future business analysis is
553
00:37:53,790 --> 00:37:58,020
moving to privatization
componentization of your skills.
554
00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:01,950
So that's kind of that's the
year that I'm moving to Wales
555
00:38:01,980 --> 00:38:05,880
and building products around my
skills, and offering that to my
556
00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:10,920
clients. So it might be a six
month gig, or it might just be a
557
00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:14,550
five day or it might just be a
one day workshop that I use to
558
00:38:14,550 --> 00:38:18,660
do give my skills, because then
it makes me again, a lot more
559
00:38:18,660 --> 00:38:21,930
versatile than I can go in. And
they don't have to hire me for a
560
00:38:21,930 --> 00:38:25,290
full six months. They can hire
me for a day, or they can hire
561
00:38:25,290 --> 00:38:30,030
me for a week. But it actually
has opened a lot more avenues
562
00:38:30,330 --> 00:38:33,870
for revenue for me and for
clients being able to have that
563
00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:35,970
that product that I can offer
564
00:38:36,449 --> 00:38:39,119
Joe Newbert: or products.
Products. If you're talking
565
00:38:39,119 --> 00:38:41,399
about service thinking, aren't
you? Sure?
566
00:38:41,429 --> 00:38:44,669
Paul Benn: Yeah. It is doesn't
answer the service with Zoom,
567
00:38:44,669 --> 00:38:47,189
you want to talk about the
future business. That's I think
568
00:38:47,189 --> 00:38:51,299
that's where we need to hit, you
know, again, forget about the
569
00:38:51,299 --> 00:38:54,839
permanent roles and all that you
want to kind of if you really
570
00:38:54,839 --> 00:38:59,099
want to kind of move your your,
your needle in terms of
571
00:38:59,099 --> 00:39:03,179
knowledge in your experience,
you've got to you've got to move
572
00:39:03,179 --> 00:39:06,599
and you got to continue to move
and go forward and not be stuck
573
00:39:06,599 --> 00:39:09,209
in one place. And I think that's
that's kind of the message that
574
00:39:09,209 --> 00:39:12,599
came from that manager to me
many, many years ago is like,
575
00:39:12,899 --> 00:39:15,869
don't get stuck in one place too
long, because you will stagnate.
576
00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:20,850
Joe Newbert: Yeah, that is so
true. You back to typecast
577
00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:25,050
stagnate, there's just little
growth and things will get
578
00:39:25,050 --> 00:39:30,810
frustrating. I think I think
just to add on to what you said,
579
00:39:30,810 --> 00:39:33,240
you know, I think I think
service thinking is great for
580
00:39:33,240 --> 00:39:36,690
independence for consultants. I
also think it's probably going
581
00:39:36,690 --> 00:39:41,430
to be very good for people
inside because one of one of the
582
00:39:41,430 --> 00:39:45,000
things I've often thought about
is that because business
583
00:39:45,030 --> 00:39:49,290
analysts are so versatile,
right? Because we've got such a
584
00:39:49,290 --> 00:39:56,250
broad set of skills. We actually
rarely repeat the same service
585
00:39:56,340 --> 00:40:00,630
or the same experience maybe for
stakeholders. So I often wonder
586
00:40:00,630 --> 00:40:05,070
if stakeholders have difficulty
in understanding what it is that
587
00:40:05,070 --> 00:40:10,020
we do, because actually, we're
inconsistent in what we do.
588
00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:15,240
Because we've got the ability to
do so much, that it's not often
589
00:40:15,240 --> 00:40:20,070
that we do the same thing in the
same way, twice. So if we can
590
00:40:20,070 --> 00:40:24,390
start to bring in some
consistency by defining services
591
00:40:24,780 --> 00:40:29,460
that we offer, that are perhaps
around outcomes and things, you
592
00:40:29,460 --> 00:40:32,340
know, like, this is the product
that I'm going to give you at
593
00:40:32,340 --> 00:40:35,700
the end of this service, that
might be a really interesting
594
00:40:35,700 --> 00:40:39,030
way to start to define business
analysis into the future.
595
00:40:40,350 --> 00:40:43,380
Paul Benn: Yeah, I mean, and
that's certainly the way I've
596
00:40:43,380 --> 00:40:48,630
started not defining my practice
as a as a consultant BA. So
597
00:40:48,630 --> 00:40:54,630
I've, I've started building
little products, as service
598
00:40:54,630 --> 00:40:59,160
products around cybersecurity,
have built a product around
599
00:40:59,190 --> 00:41:04,440
outcomes based needs
understanding, and so on. So
600
00:41:06,090 --> 00:41:09,390
it's, it's really the
progression of my product
601
00:41:09,390 --> 00:41:11,970
specialist, James, I'm now going
back into that specialist role.
602
00:41:11,970 --> 00:41:15,330
Again, we have said, these
missionaries that I want to work
603
00:41:15,330 --> 00:41:18,000
and, and the reason why I'm
doing it, because I'm playing to
604
00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:20,970
my strengths, and I'm playing to
the value that I know that I can
605
00:41:20,970 --> 00:41:27,390
offer. I know in in my answers
to the podcast, one of the
606
00:41:27,390 --> 00:41:31,890
things I said, the world is
changing so fast, and we can get
607
00:41:31,890 --> 00:41:36,750
caught up in this change, trying
to do understand every little
608
00:41:36,750 --> 00:41:41,700
piece and gather every little
piece. And instead, we we need
609
00:41:41,700 --> 00:41:45,240
to kind of sit back and say,
Okay, what is interesting to me,
610
00:41:45,240 --> 00:41:49,020
what adds value to me, what do I
have a passion for and stop
611
00:41:49,020 --> 00:41:52,590
building skills around that
passion, rather than trying to
612
00:41:52,590 --> 00:41:58,920
be a node all of of everything.
I get this a lot in in the
613
00:41:58,920 --> 00:42:04,140
coaching that I do with aspiring
bas. And I had a client
614
00:42:04,140 --> 00:42:09,570
recently, and this person was
all over the place, grabbing
615
00:42:09,600 --> 00:42:12,000
every little course. And that
could do it was data. And then
616
00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:15,990
the next was lesson was that and
we had to pull it back and say
617
00:42:15,990 --> 00:42:19,680
like, hold on, what is your
strategy? What is it that you
618
00:42:19,710 --> 00:42:23,220
want to offer as a business
analyst, then the structure,
619
00:42:23,310 --> 00:42:26,370
what your knowledge base around
that needs to be? And I think
620
00:42:26,400 --> 00:42:29,370
that's that's also important to
understand is that there's a lot
621
00:42:29,370 --> 00:42:32,970
out there. But you got to start
finding where your niches?
622
00:42:33,270 --> 00:42:36,060
Joe Newbert: Yeah, no, I think
that's a great point. The
623
00:42:36,060 --> 00:42:38,700
scattergun approach isn't going
to be something that works here.
624
00:42:38,970 --> 00:42:42,900
But I do get it, it's almost an
act of desperation, because
625
00:42:42,900 --> 00:42:47,100
they're so excited to get into
the profession. They figure
626
00:42:47,100 --> 00:42:49,860
they're gonna hit something if
they've got a broad array of
627
00:42:49,980 --> 00:42:54,270
things. So it's funny, it's not
as intuitive to think that you
628
00:42:54,270 --> 00:42:58,260
need to just pick that that
niche, but but you do. But what
629
00:42:58,260 --> 00:43:02,310
a great point to end on really
like find your passion, find
630
00:43:02,310 --> 00:43:06,630
your niche, build yourself up
slowly, but towards some kind of
631
00:43:06,630 --> 00:43:08,100
goal that you got in place.
632
00:43:10,140 --> 00:43:11,970
Paul Benn: Also, when we
finished a really cheap as I was
633
00:43:11,970 --> 00:43:13,380
just getting excited, and
634
00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:17,130
Joe Newbert: just get warmed up
with you, yeah, like, I don't
635
00:43:17,130 --> 00:43:21,360
ask you tinies Exactly. But I
know it's around 4045 minutes,
636
00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:25,380
maybe just over at the moment.
So it probably is time to say
637
00:43:25,380 --> 00:43:28,620
thank you, Paul, I appreciate
you joining me. I wish I could
638
00:43:28,620 --> 00:43:31,740
hang with you soon. But since
you've moved to the other side
639
00:43:31,740 --> 00:43:34,770
of the world, it just makes that
kind of thing. A little less
640
00:43:34,770 --> 00:43:37,230
often, but maybe one day, get
over.
641
00:43:38,489 --> 00:43:40,379
Paul Benn: I think you should
come over for holiday if you
642
00:43:40,379 --> 00:43:44,069
haven't been to New Zealand.
Now, if not snow, okay, you need
643
00:43:44,069 --> 00:43:48,389
to continue doing this. The
logic to experience in New
644
00:43:48,389 --> 00:43:53,639
Zealand. You know, there's a lot
of flow with the land of the
645
00:43:53,639 --> 00:44:01,169
hobbits have one of the the the
film sets is just on the road
646
00:44:01,169 --> 00:44:05,369
for me here. Were some of the
Lord of the Rings or shots.
647
00:44:05,939 --> 00:44:12,509
Yeah, yeah. We'll we'll probably
be trying to do some in person
648
00:44:12,509 --> 00:44:14,939
conferences coming up. So yeah.
649
00:44:15,360 --> 00:44:17,490
Joe Newbert: Okay. love
interest. Now bear that in mind.
650
00:44:17,490 --> 00:44:23,190
I mean, actually, it seems like
every month a really good friend
651
00:44:23,190 --> 00:44:25,920
sort of moves that way. So the
number of people that are
652
00:44:25,920 --> 00:44:30,270
missing is just growing by the
day so so yeah, there's a
653
00:44:30,270 --> 00:44:32,790
definite chance of that. But
thank you, Paul. Nice to see you
654
00:44:32,820 --> 00:44:37,080
in our chat some nice and thanks
for having me really enjoyed it.
655
00:44:37,080 --> 00:44:37,620
Thanks.