Beyond “Us v. Them”

Muoki Musau: Good to me.
Matthew Brake: Hey everybody. Welcome to one question, the podcast that brings together two Christians and a non-believer in conversation about the state of the world and what justice looks like in practice. Each episode returns to one core question. How do we move from words to action in ways that actually strengthen community? We unpack what's happening, name the forces behind it, and stay focused on what people can build together. My name's Matthew Brake. I'm your host. And I am joined by Moki Masao. How's it going Moki?
Muoki Musau: Life is good.
Matthew Brake: and also by Jason Baylis.
Jason Bayless: Hello.
Matthew Brake: So in this podcast, of the reasons we started was because I have been looking at the state of the world for the past year maybe even the past 10 years and have wanted a place to ⁓ about it in a more public fashion rather than just screaming into my pillow at night. And so I reached out to ⁓ my friends, Moki and Jason. about maybe starting something where we could talk about things and maybe allow that that screaming into the pillow to become more constructive. Those of you who are tuning in, thank you for tuning in. But when you're tuning in, you're probably wondering who are guys and why should I even listen to anything they have to say? And so we want to take some time to introduce ourselves. and then talk about why two Jesus freaks are talking to this heathen Canaanite. All right, so Moki, tell us about yourself and then I'll talk about myself and then we'll let Jason go last, because of course he's the non-believer. So he's obviously second class.
Jason Bayless: Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. You told me this was gonna be an episode of us just filming you screaming into a pillow.
Matthew Brake: ⁓ yeah, and Moki talked about that when you left from our pre-meeting and we got rid of the pillow. The pillow was uncomfortable.
Muoki Musau: I was secretly hoping for that as well Jason, so just let you know. ⁓
Jason Bayless: Deceit from the beginning.
Muoki Musau: from the beginning. ⁓
Matthew Brake: Can't trust these Christians.
Muoki Musau: Alright, so who, you can never trust them. You can only trust God and work hard. So who am I? you know, just, ⁓ I'm a regular you know, there's, got my whole backstory, but you know, I grew up in the church in the ⁓ Pentecostal tradition, is very conservative and ⁓
Matthew Brake: Never trust a friend.
Jason Bayless: You
Muoki Musau: During my college career, I had a great time at George Mason and it was a comparative religions program there. it was the first time that I really thought critically or even just engaged critically with what, how do people think about Christianity and the belief claims and all of that. without belief in the claims. And that ⁓ opened my eyes, one, that there is completely new way to think about this. But also, my favorite professor, John Burns, he a Scottish guy. ⁓ described himself as a lapsed You know, he still had some fondness for his Christian upbringing, but he was not, you know, he really wasn't digging it anymore. So, but nevertheless, he really sparked within me like this idea, like, the essence the faith does ⁓ help, but the way that it itself out just kind of sucks. So then I went to seminary and got my, I got a dual masters at Gordon Conwell. And that's, that was more of, that was a non ⁓ denominational Christian. ⁓ Evangelical Seminary and that's where I sort of cut my teeth not only in theology but in ⁓ black and in Bonhoeffer studies. So for me I'm gonna just be real man. Gordon-Conn was a white school and I went in there wanting to do New Testament studies because I wanted to sort of follow into John Burns' kind of footsteps because he was such a huge impact on my life because he was an ancient Near East guy, Hebrew, Old Testament, so on and so forth. I went to New Testament and I just was like, I think it was like the first week or first month, like in the semester I was like, I New Testament. I saw the people in the New Testament track and I'm like, I'm looking at all of them and I'm looking at my black self with the big Afro and I'm like, this ain't it. So I was like, this does not work for me. So I went the theology route and at the same time, actually I read James Cone's, The Cross and the Lynching Tree. That was my first introduction into black theology and I'm like, Wait a minute. So I come from comparative religions to James Cone and then I go to seminary and I'm like Who's telling ⁓ which way is what and so ⁓ I ⁓ to do when I was in seminary was try to bridge the gap in some kind of ways of reconciling what I had learned at George Mason with ⁓ I was learning from James Cone and Really of diving deeper into his work and in black theology work and also just like the ⁓ evangelical so I ⁓ really of started leaning a lot into Dietrich Bonhoeffer's work and ⁓ what I do ⁓ is ⁓ I just think about ⁓ all of what I know in terms of what does it mean to a Christian? What does it mean to follow Jesus? But also what does it mean to take action and really make a difference only in the world but make a difference for the people that ⁓ like James Cohn and Bonhoeffer really wanted to see their lives change is really the people that are the most marginalized least talked about ⁓ least so on and so forth while also being a part of you know my community so that's who I am as you know I'm a bad drink bourbon I ⁓ I hard and I trust God.
Matthew Brake: Right? That's really great that you have the slogan on your t-shirt too, that the thing you said also fits the thing you're wearing. So that's good.
Muoki Musau: It doesn't you know, I mean it's just can't make this stuff up
Matthew Brake: You're very good at branding. ⁓ I was going to ask if you were going to bring up what Gordon Conwell was like. What was it about Bonhoeffer that drew you specifically?
Muoki Musau: So for me, what really drew me was that he was very aristocratic German a very conservative German guy. But for whatever reason he had this the way that he understood how the, ⁓ the son of God is one, God reveals himself in the world, but also like ⁓ what that, what that means for you live life. The number one thing was, Bonhoeffer really, really about the Jews and the fact that in order to be a Christian, had to accept ⁓ in ⁓ to the community anything that says that just because they are they cannot be a part of the christian community ⁓ is antithetical to the he said that ⁓ very early on and me that was like super powerful ⁓ and at the same time very early in his, after he had done his second dissertation, before he turned 21, by the way, which is insane. He did a ⁓ stint a catechism class, in the of Berlin. And ⁓ it's like the most, like you would never expect this, ⁓ but that had an impact on his life. He writes during Christmas time ⁓ where he tells all his friends and families You're not going to get any Christmas presents this year because I'm in here with these poor kids. And if you look at their life, can't help but something about it. And so this year you're not getting anything because I got to do something for these. So that's like a very practical way that he says ⁓ being Christian, the way that God reveals himself on the world ⁓ means It's a practical. immediate thing ⁓ impacts you in that you have to make a decision about how you want to live your life and that really just so powerful to me and in combination with what i was learning about black theology and you being in a in a predominantly white school and this was the time this was the time that of trevon martin So all of these kind of forces together is kind of what shaped how I tried to approach not only being a Christian, but how does that actually. I was at seminary I didn't find any great answers so I've really just kind of tried and even ⁓ conversation but know is part of that too because Bonhoeffer did try ⁓ to get to buy into what he was saying and very few did so
Matthew Brake: Well, and I think, too, what's interesting, which I'm sure could be a whole other conversation we go into, is did he work in the German ghetto before or after he ⁓ was Harlem?
Muoki Musau: what's great about it is before. Not only did he do before he was in Harlem, but when he came to America, he and his, homeboy, the pacifist, the French guy, Lacer, they did a road trip across America down to the South. ⁓ he, there's, he has a very, it wouldn't say robust, but it's a very clear. ⁓ perspective about American racism Bonhoeffer truly was disappointed with American society of racism and how they treated black people in the South. So. ⁓
Matthew Brake: And he gets involved in the black, what's the big church in Harlem he's a part of that? Yeah, like he goes there, like he has this experience in the black church and the black community that also helps him even, I mean, he's already has an appreciation for people who are marginalized or what have you. this just adds to it. like, ⁓ ⁓
Muoki Musau: Abyssinian Baptist Church. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah. mm-hmm yeah
Matthew Brake: Well, good. Well, my name is Matthew break and I'm going next not because I'm the host and taking power, but Jason asked to go last. So my name is Matthew break. I'm a professor of philosophy and also a person who writes a lot about religion, theology and popular culture. I like Moki was raised in a Pentecostal environment. I. Went to a small Bible college that would not grant degrees and only was three years because I didn't really care about education. But then after I was there, I sort of felt like I was supposed to go in the seminary. So I went to Regent University, Virginia Beach. And then ⁓ after that, I went right into ministry with this one church plant. And that was sort of the beginning of the of my idea that I would be traditional clergy because it was a terrible experience. And then I wandered around for a year wondering what the hell am I going to do now? Cause I felt like I was supposed to be in ministry till I was, since I was 13. so after year, ⁓ I adjuncting and then I decided academia would be the way I would do all the things I liked about ministry, including teaching or asking questions without having to worry about the politics of a local church, ⁓ as well being told. people in the pews don't care about these questions or you can't ask that question because it's heresy or something like that. So I am an academic. It was during that time of thinking about becoming an academic that I actually met Jason. We used to do a podcast together called Coalesce, which was also about a Christian and a atheist coming together and talking about how to how we could, how we care about justice.
Jason Bayless: very creative or we just continue to say that.
Matthew Brake: We're recycling the same idea over and over. That's every 10 years or so. That's the kind of goal of 13 years. So yeah, so that's my background. It's a little bit of what I do. Obviously, when there's more I could say about my own story, but I do think having been raised in a sort of environment that did not think that social justice of any kind was important because
Jason Bayless: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Matthew Brake: the rapture would happen and so why improve the world now? You'll always have the poor with you. So my view of wanting to improve the world or make it better for other people was often tamped down by my environment. ⁓ I have since come to a different place. And as I look around the world, my influences have changed ⁓ and I longer think that we shouldn't try to actually improve the world even if it is going to end. That is where I'm coming from. I don't know if any of you have questions for me, but we can just wait. That's fine. We,
Muoki Musau: Well, I do. I had no idea that you wanted to be in ministry. so what it that you ⁓ were it? You were working at a church ⁓ and and this is where like you can't ask that question and that kind of thing. ⁓ And was it that you were doing like a training thing ⁓ and that's you were like, OK, you kind of smelled the or you kind of read the tea leaves and you're like, all right, this is not it.
Matthew Brake: Well, I mean, that's a long story. know, the reason I was, for all practical purposes, fired, I had to raise my own salary. So that was also part of it. So there was a high... But it was a pretty high stress environment that I entered into with a group of friends who I thought would be this community we would build. The problem is that the church we ended up joining together in wasn't...
Muoki Musau: ⁓ that is the worst, That's how they get through the taxes, That's the solace game.
Matthew Brake: Interested in the type of organic community place. I was coming from it was run very Like if you're familiar with Stephen Furtick and elevation it's run with a very strongly programmed thing that created a lot of high stress And it was a Had some conservative elements to it. ⁓ The that got me kicked out was I went to a friend's birthday party and had a few drinks and I got accused of being drunk and like just got
Muoki Musau: You
Matthew Brake: Like it was no like did this actually happen? was like I was told I was coming to a prayer meeting and then it was like an intervention slash here's why you're terrible. And so like so it also kind of devastated my self confidence because it was like first ministry, you know, I've wanted to be a ministry for like 10, 11, 12 years my first time out. Like this is how this is going. And funny now because I mean, you know, you and I run in similar church circles like The idea that I was drunk then to the amount of whiskey I might've had with people we know or have interacted with in certain church planting circles at a church planting conference. I mean, I'm thinking about like having my feet in the pool with Mike Breen of 3DM and like there are these Anglican guys and we're like a few beers in, right? ⁓ just, was one of those like, you it was one of those really stupid things where, Like even if I had been like totally shit faced, like it just wasn't handled well. And because there was certain conflict happening among everyone in this planting group, I sort of feel like I got scapegoated because that's some of those same people got kicked out like a year later. Like, like it just wasn't healthy. But it did sort of show me ⁓ I never liked the idea of how the
Muoki Musau: Absolutely.
Matthew Brake: planting a church thing was operating. Cause like I wanted to be in a place where I could care about people as the people they were. But now when I would meet with people, I was sort of getting this pressure of like, okay, but make sure they come to church someday. So I sort of felt like I was selling Amway that's like, I didn't like that idea of ministry as Amway, right? Like I'm not selling kitchen knives. Like that's not what I want to do here. Like where is this person at and how can I meet them in a genuine way? whereas I felt like when I went into the classroom that type of pressure was off but I felt like I could still be an influence a mentor help people think about these existential questions Not feel like I had to Jesus it up before it was time ⁓ like ⁓ mean as a professional
Muoki Musau: Jesus
Matthew Brake: the question of God comes up and like questions of faith, but I don't feel like I have to force it in or do so in a way that again, feels like I'm selling kitchen knives. So yeah, so that's how I became an academic. And there are obviously a lot of parts that story, but that's ⁓ general outline of who I am and ⁓ where I'm coming from. Again, Moki was the one who asked, who indicated that he was surprised that I wanted to be a minister. But yeah, no. So I got kicked out because was accused of getting drunk at a birthday party. like there was way more happening than that. There was, I mean, I was at the point where I had friends telling me quit this job before you get fired because I was developing insomnia and all sorts of other stuff. So. ⁓ Yeah, it was a high stress time. And it really, I mean, it wrecked my confidence, I think, at the time for ministry. I but a good thing came of it. Like from that, I ended getting some help with depression. so...
Muoki Musau: Yikes. ⁓
Matthew Brake: It all worked out, I guess. Like now I'm more emotionally healthy. But at the time it was devastating to the idea that I would ever be a clergy person. and parts of that journey also involved like my theological growth from a fundamentalist to not that from a Christian nationalist to not that honestly being ⁓ to ask questions in Bible college. Not necessarily always having the resources to pursue my doubts. Seminary actually helped even though it was like Regent University and Pat Robertson was the chancellor. There were a number of really great theologians there at the time. Some of whom I'll probably talk about while we're going through our main conversation later on. You my own political disillusionment, my own sort of embrace of certain parts of radical political and politics in terms of, you know, adopting an Anabaptist view of pacifism, then sort of becoming discouraged by that and moving towards Black liberation and even just someone as simple as Reinhold Niebuhr, Martin Luther King Jr. or someone like that. Like there's been this ⁓ shift. ⁓ In my Christian social practice, even though I would still I think my friends are all surprised at how theologically orthodox I still am so that's where I'm coming from Jason what about you?
Jason Bayless: Well first, thanks for, I learned a lot about you just then, so there's new things that I didn't know about. Thanks for sharing that. Especially about the emotional state that you were in on that. know that's hard, so thanks for sharing that. ⁓ think we all kind of have our experiences that, so, you know, and ⁓ even speaking it out loud can ⁓ be so ⁓ I to respect that and honor that and see it, so thanks for sharing that. So obviously I come from this outside of the faith tradition. But think the question of what ⁓ we're together on this ⁓ podcast, the question that's ⁓ at center of this, that how do we actually move from words to actions is really, important because to me, that's been kind of the core fabric of who I have been. my entire life. I've organized my life around that question because I did grow up in Texas. I did grow up, you know, surrounded by Southern ⁓ And was ⁓ probably keystone that made me start thinking outside of ⁓ those is I would hear people be really, really vocal ⁓ and seem committed about social justice issues, domestic violence, all of these things. But I never saw it in action. I would see people either turn a blind eye to it or step over it and go back to, think, what you said earlier, about, well, it's all in God's plan. And when we reach the pearly gates, it'll all be better. And I struggled deeply with, why can't we create that world now? I mean, everything that we've created in this world, we created, it wasn't here. And then we stepped into it, we created it. And if we're not happy with it and we're seeing injustice, can we do about it? And really started, you me being aware of the world around me, being able to engage, being in conversation and questioning and trying to find myself as a young kid within that space really pushed me to say, this is what I need to dedicate my life to. that manifested in multiple different ways from something as simple as, know, ⁓ I not to work for for-profit companies. I always try to work for nonprofit or social benefit organizations to what I do on my spare time, what I do. ⁓ you know, the conversations that I'm having, the people that I associate with. All of that is important to me because I actually believe the means ⁓ should representative of the end goal that we want to move forward to, you know. I truly believe that justice isn't something that you believe in. It's actually something you build. Just the same way injustice exists because we built it. And with that recognition, means that we have the power, we have the understanding, we have the to actually creating the world that we all deserve, regardless of what you believe in in terms of your ⁓ It's possible. know, go and pull it back to the kind of the faith tradition. That is the promise that we're trying to get to. And I don't want to wait for it. I want it now. And I'm going to. spent my life to it. So that's a foundation with that. I kind of give a little bit more insight. I founded a nonprofit called A Radical Guide that is pretty much ⁓ basically the practical expression of everything that we're going to talk about on this show. The connects liberation movements globally. We currently maintain a directory over ⁓ 12,000. radical spaces, liberation spaces, we call them over 75 countries. have mutual aid programs, we build infrastructure, so movements and individuals can find each other and share resources. And was created because part of my journey, I realized that we're not taught the other path. We're taught the aspirations, we're taught what we could be or who we should be if we ever get there. my reflection of that, I'm like, it's never something that we get to. It's never going to, the goalpost is constantly moving when we talk about liberation and creating social justice or creating the world that we all deserve. So we need to build the narrative and the stories and the access now. And so that's, that's my coming from, that's what I'm going to bring to this conversation. You know, we're going to talk about faith and non-faith or believer, non-believer stuff. And I just want to also name that not one of those people that say, ⁓ I don't believe in labels. I the strength and the power ⁓ and oppression that labels hold. So I'm to provide this context so you know where I'm coming from when we talk about the terms that are identified as labels. To me, I ⁓ strength in labels when we label something, when we are able to put it in a category. When you say you're believer or when you say you're a non-believer, that is not the identity of the person. That is the foundation of where they get their values from. doesn't mean they're separate. There's a Venn diagram of that. So when I talk about labels or that are classified as labels, I'm not saying that's who I am. I'm vegan. I'm an anarchist. I'm whatever, you know, I'm a non-believer. That's not it's not my it's not who I am, but it is a representation of where I pull my values from. And I pull my values from a lot of different buckets because at the core, it's a going back to what we were saying earlier at the core, the foundation is how do we create the world that we all deserve, not just what I deserve. Because when we talk about liberation, there's a there's a core recognition in that that What liberation looks like to me is way different most of the time than what liberation looks like to you. So when we ask the question, how do we move from words to actions? I think that's a core practice that we need to put in there is like, well, what is, you know, we're talking about creating a world that works for everybody that we all deserve. What does that look like for you? And let me also share what it looks like for me. And then from there, we actually create that world. We can't create that world if you're saying, ⁓ this is what the world looks like for me. And if you don't believe it, you're deviant or you're an outcast or ⁓ ⁓ see the light or whatever. When we do that, we're never going to get there. We're just replicating the systems and structures that keep us separated, that keep oppression alive, and that keep ⁓ the things that we see in the world that we're just like, why is this happening? fundamentally created from our separation from each other. It's fundamentally created from our understanding that we are this isolated being in this ecosystem that we don't need. And that separation is what creates all the destruction in the world. So that's what I ⁓ to the conversation. That's who I am. I'll get off my soapbox now. ⁓
Matthew Brake: Jason I am wondering because I feel like maybe I'm just miss maybe I'm misremembering. I feel like in an earlier period there was a time where because you talked about labels and how labels can be important for determining where people get values. I think that's absolutely right because I would say there's a value in having certain labels for reasons you articulated. I think recognizing that people do understand their identity in parts of those labels. I I mean, you said that maybe it's not about identity. It's more about knowing where they draw values from. I do think there was an earlier time where I think you were a little less open to the idea of labels, almost like these labels are these artificial things that keep us from coming together and keep us from doing together, building justice together. They artificial. Has there been a shift there over time? ⁓
Jason Bayless: No, I don't think there's a shift there. think there's context that might be missing. with everything, if we're going to look at it, let's look at it in binary just real quick for the sake of conversation. With everything, there's the good representation of it and there's the bad representation of it. So with labels, the good representation would be that is like. I see labels as something that gives us the ability to talk about something in a productive way that I can say, well, if I'm a believer, that means this to me. And this is what the values that I pull from it. The binary aspect of that as ⁓ represented in the negative light would be, this is who I am. this is my identity and if you question my identity or challenge my identity or this label, I reject you or I'm being rejected or ⁓ not something that actually progresses our wellbeing forward. It's something that restricts and boxes. I think for the most part, I think why most people say when we talk about labels, when most people say, I don't believe in labels because labels do whatever. think people are responding to the overwhelming rule that people use it in a negative aspect of it versus saying it's a tool for us to be able to have constructive conversation because it gives us a starting point to know, ⁓ this is kind of the domain we're talking about.
Matthew Brake: You know, it's funny and maybe this is a good segue into our question, this issue of labels, right? I remember back in the days when we were doing the zombie popcorn stuff, this non-religious life coalesce. I remember telling my dad one time, I'm doing a podcast with my atheist group of friends, which is how I would refer to like you, Bob, Ken, like Christie, of you, Miley. it was like, yeah, I'm talking to my atheist group of friends. I'm doing this podcast with my atheist buddies and he's my dad would say Why do you want to be friends with atheist? Right and right there is sort of the thing you're talking about. It's sort of an illustrates the point about how These labels are you know, it's one thing for you to identify as an atheist and for me to identify as a Christian and recognize some sort of mutual benefit It's another thing when that label becomes something that allows you to completely disregard the humanity of the other Which does lead to our question for today because I know some folks like my dad and probably many others might wonder why are these two Jesus freaks talking to a heathen Canaanite such as yourself? On what basis can they even it? And possibly people who are coming from ⁓ your spheres are wondering, why are talking to these two religious people? Aren't they? ⁓
Muoki Musau: you
Matthew Brake: You know, aren't these aren't they Christian nationalist or something? Isn't religion sort of a problem? Like is there a beneficial conversation to have there possibly? And so that is our one question that we want to spend the rest of our time discussing. So, ⁓ I'm happy to lead off. I've, I've jotted down some thoughts ⁓ I think the conversation is valuable from my end ways that I can theoretically justify it in terms of values. But I want to give you all the chance to respond to this question first. Or not, whatever, it's always fine. ⁓
Jason Bayless: Go ahead, go Go ahead.
Muoki Musau: ⁓ good. Hey, so for me You I graduated from Gordon-Conwell in 2016 so about it's almost ten years now the longer that I'm away from seminary is kind of when I've really been in the world, working, living, raising a family, trying to figure this whole thing out And I've just been over the years the that keep me ⁓ moving forward become I really do latch on to just very specific things. And a lot of what keeps me ⁓ it ⁓ really comes from Bonhoeffer. so, Bonhoeffer has notion of, you know, the famous notion that conservatives hate and ⁓ who are not conservative like you know it's an inch and they take it to a mile you know this notion of religionless Christianity where he during his prison years kind of saw into the future that hey because of what's going on in the world right now in World War two and like with just the the the German church in terms being the state church ⁓ like kind co-opting with with hitler and the nazis he sees that when you do ish like this the notion of he calls it this a priori understanding that, know, the God of Israel, the God of Christ, the God of Jesus or whatever is this is the path. that of co-opting essentially ⁓ is a nail the coffin for that kind of belief. ⁓ And he sees that in his prison, but never obviously lives to be able to ⁓ flesh that out. So the question becomes, okay, for me, as we're talking about today, why am I a Jesus freak or a recovering Jesus freak, you know, with here with Jason? So I've got the prison letters and I want to, so I'm going to read the anchors that keep me going with Bonhoeffer. He says, so this is before he gets to religionless Christianity. He gets his other very famous quote where he says, what keeps gnawing at me is the question, what is Christianity or is Christ actually for us today? So essentially in a world where the idea that believing in the Christian God is basically put into question ⁓ being the way to create, Jason, as you're talking about, the world that I love the way you formulated it, that justice isn't something you believe in. ⁓ is, is, something you built. And so by church, the German church, which is the state church in Bonhoeffer's time, ⁓ where by doing they they show that Christianity is not necessarily the way to build justice. He says is, if becomes obvious one day that this a priori, this notion that Christianity has always been a form of religion, that it doesn't exist. What does that mean for Christianity? Now he's saying all of while he ⁓ is in prison for the assassination attempt on Hitler that was, that was discovered. at the time realized just because you are a Christian that you're a part of fellowship, if the fellowship is not in the business of building justice, if they simply believe in it ⁓ as a, and this is Bonhoeffer's cheap grace. ⁓ Cheap grace is merely ⁓ believing. in concepts and not actually internalizing them to create what those concepts actually want to create. what we believe as Christians creates the kingdom of God, which is Shalom for all people in the Old Testament for me, where in the Psalms where it says that, know, nationals will come up to Zion and worship God, you know, in it. They will go up the mountain and worship him in Zion in the temple in Jerusalem. That means that the Christian community or the people of God are so compelling in not only what they believe, but in the kind of society that they have. It's so compelling that people who are not the people of God, they say, I want in on that. That's what the concepts of Christianity. So the question is, OK, why this? It's because I realized while I was seminary, particularly reading Bonhoeffer and Black Theology, that what it takes to build the kingdom of God. requires more than the people who simply show up to church on Sunday morning. Because most of what happens on Sunday morning is about keeping the people that contributed most to the tithe and offering to keep the lights on, than it is about actually taking courage and taking care of people that need it.
Matthew Brake: But Moki, what if instead of being compelling ourselves, what if we like make other people try to be Christian by their behavior, by like forcing them to be legally? Like what if we took power and instead of being compelling, we compelled instead? What if we did that? Would that, would Bonhoeffer be okay with that? Would that be okay?
Muoki Musau: yeah So your point about forcing, I two I have are with AA, ⁓ Alcoholics Anonymous, don't want to, ⁓ I'm not to minimize it or I think it's, for what does, ⁓ it's amazing. they try to force you to change. They you to see that you, one, have a problem and you have to want to There's that aspect. Second one is intense. My seven year old son, when he was, I don't remember what the time it was, but ⁓ we to do potty training for him. If I tried to tell him, you need if ⁓ I ⁓ to like grab, sit him down on the toilet to take a ⁓ doodoo, not the more you insist the more they resist what I'm saying is you can't expect behavior for like Jason mentioned about labels I even come back to the story of the Good Samaritan ⁓ the person that ⁓ the Good Samaritan helped who was beaten up on Jericho Road he didn't say hey you need to believe in what I believe in before I you to the hospital and pay all your hospital bills he helped them so you can't expect a certain level of behavior before do the work of building justice and equity in a community if is Homeless or whatever it may be you know, I'm gonna say hey man say this in his prayer before I pay for you, know help you and your family get your baby you get diapers or whatever
Matthew Brake: like a lot of Christian shelters do. It's like, no, if you want to eat, you have to listen to the sermon.
Muoki Musau: Yeah, I mean there's a whole lot I could go into that but the thing is Okay, ask yourself this question If you were hungry as shit. And you were cold. What Would you listen to a sermon? What do you want? And this is the thing about Jesus he is truly radical. He was healing people Before they believe in anything that he had to say He goes to the leper, guy, someone who can't walk. He goes to me, he simply says, what do you want? Imagine if we go to the poor people around us and say, hey, what do you want?
Matthew Brake: I think Jason, you might appreciate this story. There was this one time, I'll use this in class to illustrate the virtue of generosity. I was walking in Ghent one night, which is a neighborhood in Norfolk, Jason and used to both live in. I was walking up to New Belmont, which was this bar that's now like a video game bar. I was trying to learn to become more generous, because I kind of realized how stingy I was. So one thing I said was, I'm going to start giving money ⁓ people who are unhoused and homeless Because it's really not my job to figure out how they're going to use the money. Because if they don't get it from me they'll get it from someone who will exploit them. So it's like I'll just give them. So I was walking this one guy stopped me and some friends of mine and were like hey you know do you guys have some money. And I was like and there my bank was like two blocks behind us. I turn around and I'm like I'll get some money. And then I turn around and I didn't realize this guy had like was starting to follow me and like run after me and my buddies were like hey where are going. And he was like, I need to tell him how much I need. Ike asked for something like, it was like 65 bucks or something. It was like way more than I've ever given anyone who's unhoused. I do think, you know, to your point, what do you need, right? What do you want?
Jason Bayless: just want to kind of pull out a little bit because I think fundamentally the question, know, the first steps to conversations around liberation is really out what is needed for the other, not for self. Self is included, but in this conversation. I think the intent or the outcome is really important to name at this stage because think we get lost in that a lot. I think we start thinking of charity work as something that's really important and really, really critical in creating a world that we need. And because who representing, because I was asked to be in the show because of who I represent, there's an asterisk to the Good Samaritan work when I hear I hear Christians talk. And I'm not saying that it's inherently bad, I want to name it because it's not often talked about. And that asterisk is that ⁓ you're doing this work so that you can membership, so that you can get a place in heaven, so that you can do something that you yourself recently ⁓ receive something. The intent around that is always fascinating me because I think it's ⁓ fascinating to me because I also think we're taught that charity is a good thing, but we never ⁓ take that a little bit further say charity is a product of capitalism. Charity is product of, is baked into the system of capitalism. ⁓ so that those who have the wealth and the power don't have to take care of those without. Charity is built into that system to make us feel good that we're taking care of each other. But the we're taking care of each other in the domain of charity is because the system that we participate in actually creates that discrepancy. It creates that space. So when I hear people talk about doing charity work and then it has the asterisk of building membership or has self-benefit from it, I'm always pushed to start thinking, well, what's the different way of approaching this? What is a way that is actually going to benefit all but not have that asterisk of like, I'm doing this so that you can get into the kingdom of heaven. Or I'm doing this so that you can become an anarchist or something else. that's why in work, ⁓ shift it from mutual aid versus charity work, because we're not responding to a crisis. We're not responding to the injustices of system that we support. we're actually asking that question that y'all brought up earlier is like, well, what do we need to survive? What do we need to show up fully? then how do we collectively build that? And no asterisk to that ⁓ other you know, we're trying create that world that we all deserve. And ⁓ there's immediate there. There's no long-term after I die, I'm not going to get anything from it. I'm not going to get anything. I'm not going to get any class or status within my community because I'm in these conversations and I'm doing this work for my community. again, I'm not saying ⁓ Christians are bad because they want something or they think they're going to get something. I just bringing it forward because I think it's a missing that that's not part of the full conversation.
Matthew Brake: Let me address two things because there are things you both said that I thought were interesting that I want to highlight here Moki mentioned needing empathy, which ⁓ issue that we find right now in our society is this push coming from Both sides of things as well as sort of the tech Technocratic side of things like they're these books about toxic empathy, right? There's like a secular book about this that Elon Musk is a big fan of And then there are books. forget what the, know one is, I forget both of the author's names, but who've theologically about the problem of empathy. And I think that that's because they recognize that if people see empathy as a good thing, it'll cause them to move away from certain types of political systems or ideas about the structure of society. Jason, to your point about ⁓ charity, I think that's right. think there is a problem with charity in terms of ⁓ As you say, rather than creating a structure in society that takes care of everyone, inequalities are allowed to remain and charity is the way to allow those inequalities to remain. I do think we need to clarify language here about what we might mean by kingdom of God or kingdom of heaven. Because particularly when you read black liberation theologians, when you read people like, I'm thinking about Walter Brueggemann, Walter, Roshan Bush, the social gospel guy, like there is the sense that the kingdom of God is a reality of justice that is instantiated now, not just in the future. So it's not ⁓ ⁓ going to heaven. Cause I do think that there is something a little, you know, on the one hand, I think it's cool that religious people can be motivated to be towards others from a religious motivation that might be about the afterlife or personal reward. ⁓ cause some people have no motivation at all, but I do think there is this other understanding of what the kingdom of God is that the kingdom, like the sense of wellbeing among human beings, whether or not they're in the membership roles or not is a part of that understanding of the kingdom of God, but not often one that was articulated in the conservative circles. All of us were exposed to early on. So I do want to clarify that language a little bit that when we talk about the kingdom of God, that A number of theologians speak of it as like, yes, there might be a perfect kingdom in the future, but we bear witness now to a better way of life. Cause even the idea of like being even the idea of going to heaven is based in the idea of humankind. You know, it's the Irenaeus quote that God became man so that man could become God, That the glory of God is the human fully alive. Like There's that sense of fully aliveness which happens in the place of community and justice that many of these other theologians speak of when they talk about the kingdom of God now, which includes having just structures. So I want to clarify.
Jason Bayless: Can you maybe add more? Because both of you in your intro... Well, maybe it's not even that. Maybe the question that I'm asking is like, what we're taught and what we're seeing around the charity, around what the kingdom of God is. The way that I represented it and the way that you're clarifying it, there's a divide there. I think the way you're trying to clarify it is not the mainstream narrative that most people get.
Matthew Brake: Yeah, no, because I mean, and this would go into the entire history of like the fundamentalist divide in the history of American theology in particular, where, you know, you see historically certain like John Wesley was actually pretty good about joining the idea of like a personal personal faith with with social improvement, right at a wide level. And over time, you see this split, particularly as there's this transition to a type of view of the end of the world that would say the world's just going to be destroyed. Why bother? And then you have this other stream of people who's who sort of called into question some traditional orthodoxy, but they saw the need for social improvement. And then others who at various points were like, you know, Carl Barth is probably one of the greatest Protestant theologians of the 20th century, also socialist. Reinhold Niebuhr, big influence on MLK, known for his Christian realism. So he's a socialist who believes in incremental improvement, but also believes that there are always going to be faults we have to struggle with in society because he still has a robust view of sin. MLK obviously has a strong theological idea about what, you know, about a social democratic society or about a democratic socialist or social democratic society. And you all, mean, I don't think it's any mistake that you see the sort of conservative side that we were raised in being opposed to things like the civil rights movement and things like that. Right. There is this strong. And unfortunately we weren't raised in the side believed in social improvement. Many of us, were raised in the side that, on the one hand believe that the world was too evil to redeem, even though they wanted power to make it more Christian. ⁓ in their own image, so to speak. a lot of the people me and Mokie have been influenced by are the people who still to some sense of there being structural social improvement. all, most of the thinkers we're looking at, you Jurgen Moltmann is another one who would talk Mokie, go ahead.
Muoki Musau: no, I mean, the thing is like a lot of what I think about too is the tradition that I come, I guess we come from is societal improvement is a correlation of ⁓ more Christians society, which is essentially to, to, Jason's critique but think that like to, to your point, you know, ⁓ what I I think for me even with the the black intellectual tradition black theological tradition, it does attend to the fact that the hope that Christianity the gospel so and so ⁓ so and so forth That hope is one that ⁓ is to come ⁓ now, you know, there's a way in which the kingdom of God or even like social improvement however, you want to frame it the way that the Christian the Christian tradition that I Really try and work in is one that really tries to wrestle hard with how do we make whatever it is that, Jesus, like you said, Matt, a couple of times, Jesus said, Jesus, the son of God himself said, the poor you'll always have with you. I personally think ⁓ that that's more of like, for us is supposed to be a challenge and something that makes us super uncomfortable, something that should keep you open. Yeah, I mean.
Jason Bayless: quick, just a couple of things. I'm hearing that there's a tradition that is speaking to the Christians, not speaking outside of the circle of the Christians, of like, look, this we can do better, and this is how we can do better. And then there's the issue around what you mentioned, is the only that we can achieve this goal is if we're all Christians.
Matthew Brake: Well, I- ⁓ sorry.
Jason Bayless: And that's problematic.
Muoki Musau: Yes, and I agree I would let me if I didn't clear if it wasn't clear at the point Yes, I'm not advocate. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I Mm-hmm. Yes, but that's the yeah, that's the tradition that I think bad Matt I'm not I guess I'll speak for you this is like that's where we come from is is that's how like they were it was the I I still remember, know in high school, you know, we were like, okay We're gonna do evangelism night where we go to the mall
Matthew Brake: that's what you're advocating that's you're describing
Jason Bayless: Yeah. Yeah. I'm not, I'm not saying that y'all are saying this or champion this. I'm just saying. You
Muoki Musau: And basically, try and convert as many people as can. It was basically sales. It was like door knocking at the mall. You go up and look, let me not minimize it because, the spirit moves. all of that. And you can find people at the right time, in the right stage of life, where they say, Jesus and I think that's important at the same time the way that I learned it was in a capitalist society which what which the dominant thread in conservative evangelical at the time which was basically Walmart Christianity was the way you change culture is by Creating as many people who just say when the u.s. Whatever does the census I am a Christian That's how you change not like I believe in Jesus. I am a follower of Jesus and Jason I know you know this phrase, but I carry my cross every day that's tradition we come from that I think is problematic because ⁓ I'm Matt, please help me here. I don't I can't recall anywhere in the Old Testament that I've read even with Brueggemann even this notion of justice this understanding of how the Old Testament? Understands the people of God and how they ⁓ like they're you know How they evangelism if you want for lack of a better word, there was no
Matthew Brake: which they don't.
Muoki Musau: Which they do not what there's no what there's no sense in which that to participate the shalom of the people of god that you have to be you have to say the sinner's prayer ⁓ distinction is for me the way I understand and I think we've bonhoeffer understood it and the way that he was trying to Create a new way of understanding particularly for evangelical questions And this is what I struggle with today. I'm not i'm just gonna be honest like I don't know how this works Not I don't think it it works, but I just don't know how to articulate it Is the the and I really take this ⁓ the samaritan good samaritan the story itself the good Samaritan story says there's this guy walking Jericho road He gets the shit beat out of him. He's laying there a Samaritan comes around he Takes him to the hospital. He says hey, whatever this guy needs just charge it to my you know My my chase Sapphire account and then whatever is left like I'll take care of it is that notion that to have the benefits of Being of the kingdom of God or like the way that the God God wants the the world to be like the structure of the world that creates justice for everybody You don't have to believe you don't have to subscribe. You don't have to go to church. You simply have to be alive you have to you have to be in need of some kind That's what that's it takes
Matthew Brake: Yeah, I was going to say that the lesson of the Good Samaritan, mean, obviously we can criticize charity, but one lesson there is that the person instantiating justice is not technically a member of, you know, God's official people, which are the, you know, which are the Hebrews, the Jewish people, right? And I think that this sort of ties, you know, I was going to say one person who influenced me in seminary was Amos Yong and he introduced this idea to me of ⁓ Pneumetological inclusivism Pneumetological having to do with the Holy Spirit that the Spirit is at work in the world ⁓ wanting to happen and it's inclusive in sense that The Spirit doesn't care who is instantiating justice as long as justice can be instantiated ⁓ and the invitation goes sure to Christians But everyone and it's having the discernment recognize when justice is happening and it doesn't matter if it's being led by, you know, the idea that the that you know, the Christians have this, it's almost its own of ethnocentrism where the supremacist idea that Christians will be the best and most competent. But I learned during the Bush administration that that's not true. Like that's what woke me up from my Christian nationalist thing was to realize that the competent people. We're not the ones who went to all the Christian colleges, that God is present in the world, instantiating justice. And it doesn't matter if you're on the church, church role. And once you can recognize that it opens the path to go. it honestly doesn't matter, you know, Jason, if you're on the role, because I believe that work of justice. is God's work. And we could probably have a whole theological conversation about what that means for the end of time and afterlife and have it but I'm actually not that concerned about that question when it comes to our current context, because the current context is how do you instantiate justice in this world? That is an act of God. That is a concern of God. When you read the prophetic text, mean, Abraham Joshua Heschel is all over this in his book, The Prophets, that there is this sort of equal opportunity of God condemning anyone who oppresses the poor, who builds exploitative wealth, who adds field to field. There are still concerns of justice beyond the question of an individual salvation and competence can come from, and often does come from people who are not, who are not in the, in the tribe, so to speak. I think that that's present ⁓ ⁓ both the new Testament well the Hebrew Bible, what Christians call the old Testament. I think that we can testify to that from experience. that Christians are not happy to people.
Jason Bayless: Yeah, I think. think if we look at theology that really lifts that up and puts the focus as Jesus as a liberator. therefore justice, social justice, justice is ⁓ work.
Matthew Brake: Now, I'm not saying, you know, for those who are listening who are believing people, I'm not saying that knowing God, you know, knowing Jesus, being attached to the vine, all this, I'm not saying that those things aren't important, but in being able to talk to others about justice, I think are plenty of places you can look where not only are those who are not, you know, Christian, and we want to say that even though You know, the early Christians, the early Christians wouldn't have called themselves that, know, ⁓ there are people who are not in the tribe who are doing God's work. and that there's a, that you can partner together, you know, even though there's this thing in second John about not partnering with those who aren't in the faith, it's talking about those who are Gnostics. ⁓ Like, and has a whole different thing happening there. but I think there's plenty that testifies to.
Muoki Musau: Yeah, yeah.
Matthew Brake: recognizing when justice is being done by whoever is doing it and that that is an important value.
Jason Bayless: The question I have then is for the sake of the purpose of this podcast what we're talking about in generic reflection of it is exception to the rule ⁓ the mainstream rule. So how do we ⁓ take these that we're talking about and move it into action? How does this like the translation being how does Christians embodied this more because we know what's happening already in the world. We just mentioned liberation theology. We have Latin American theology. have black liberation theology. have all of these examples ⁓ what it looks like in practice. But we look, when we turn on the TV, when we open the news, when we're generally out in public, That is not the feedback that we're getting. That is not the reflection that we see in the mirror. do we nudge that or how do we highlight that? Is that something that we should do? ⁓ mean, there's a lot of questions.
Muoki Musau: For me like like very simply I just believe that most Christians just have not read the Old Testament and the hard thing about the Old Testament is that it's not it doesn't give you formulas you to read stories You have to pay attention to what is being said what is not being said the characters and you have to focus really hard and see the kind of reality the Bible is to paint, this is like a long term thing. So it's not going to happen overnight. But that's what I would say. Read the Old Testament. then the other one part of it is. I come from most the people that I go to church with got money and They know a lot of people that got a whole lot of money. And so part of it is under So part of it is one donate to just Jason's nonprofit and then the other part is in the community like we know people that can
Jason Bayless: If you're listening, have a nonprofit you can donate to.
Muoki Musau: influence decisions towards people that like the kinds of people the good samaritan was trying to help so how do you move into action and going back to my boy Dietrich one of the biggest ⁓ reasons Bonhoeffer struggled is because the majority of Christians at the time that he was trying to work with did not have enough courage. They did not have enough courage to ask the person who can influence the policy, Hey, this issue ain't working. We got to do something about this or this ⁓ is this person. We got to do something about this and So I think part it is like you just got to ask what scares you? What is like man if I do this like I won't be able to go golfing with this person or I may not be invited to the the Christmas the family read the reunion or I may not be invited to the networking gig of what I think should be done for people that don't have as much money as me What is it that I would do that if I did this it would jack up My social circle. I couldn't play golf with this guy if I did that I couldn't go to bourbon night with this guy if I did that. You can go bourbon night with me, but maybe not the rich guy.
Jason Bayless: Yeah, I think it's important. think the biggest barrier for most social individuals to step into social change is the fear of losing status, fear of losing something. And it's great to recognize it and know it in yourself because that gives you the platform to have the conversation, soul searching and the work. I do have one ignorance that I hold questions that I want clarity on. When I hear you say read the Old Testament, I have an assumption about
Muoki Musau: Yes.
Jason Bayless: the world at a whole that people reject, most people reject the Old Testament and say we don't follow the teachings of the Old Testament, we only do the New Testament.
Matthew Brake: So this was an area I was actually going to guess and moke on this one. I think one thing I've wanted to do recently and I've been trying to do is read the Old Testament, but not just simply read it, you know, because we all read through some sort of interpretive lens. One thing I did recently was I went through Isaiah and I wanted to go through it and read and look for any mention of condemnation of the rich ⁓ versus poor language of ⁓ Oppression by the powerful and to see how that gets condemned. So I do think if you are going to it's not just a matter of reading the text also being aware of the hermeneutical lens because You know one problem with the text you've been raised with you get familiar with it And so there are things you don't see unless you really try to see So as i've read people like walter brookman, who's an old testament? Scholar as i've been reading abraham joshua heshel, you know he Walked with king has his book on the prophets like reading those books through the lens because i've often heard that aside from idolatry The second sin that's talked about in the hebrew bible is ⁓ how the poor are treated and so was like, okay i'm gonna I made a decision i'm like i'm gonna read through isaiah About how the and now i'm going through luke and doing the same thing and it's all over luke and those are things we don't see because ⁓ Part of it is how we've been trained to view the text through this individualist evangelical lens.
Muoki Musau: and spiritual, like internal as well.
Matthew Brake: Yeah. And I think some of that, I mean, this is me speaking as an educator about what to do. And so I always think about like, you know, one thing I've said is I haven't gone to church regularly for like seven years at this point. And would like to, but I sometimes worry that I would be frustrating to people there and they would be frustrating to me. I do think there is a problem of how we've, you know, the, the Christiany word is disciple people, how we. Get how we train them to view the text, how we train them to think of what the Christian life is or isn't, including what politics to support. Cause it's definitely there. And in white evangelicalism, it's Republicanism. and I think making people ⁓ the hard work, you know, I've thought about, do I, I don't want to go to a church that's magified, but should I, because part of, you know, reading Timothy Snyder's book on tyranny, he talks about like when tyranny is present, There are certain practices you can do and part of it is yourself present in the community. Like letting your voice be heard, maybe in some spaces that aren't dominated by you. Cause part of the problem is we do live in these monolithic echo chambers and spaces. Like I wouldn't ask someone who's in a vulnerable population to do that, but I can do that. so is this a matter of me needing to ⁓ be in those spaces to speak into them? I don't know. I still wrestle with that. ⁓ thinking about the ways that we, but some people don't want to disciple people to think about justice issues because they're afraid of loss of status, loss of money, loss of, people leaving their churches or whatnot. But some of it is a, some of it's a discipleship problem. Some of it's a reckoning with history that needs to happen. Like evangelicalism in the U S has historically been. Anti-civil rights. Like it's, It sort of set itself against any movement that has been towards allowing for more justice for people of different races, genders, et cetera. so real reckoning with history, a of how we think about what the Christian life looks like. And this is just for the Christian stuff, the stuff that would be for everyone. I go Timothy Snyder's own tyranny. You know, there are little things we can do. Like if you're in an institution and you think that institution is good. Save, you know, work to preserve the institution that you're in. You know, not all of us can do everything, but we can do some things. You know, joining in solidarity with others and movements, whether through time, finances or what have you. Right. of it is going to require the hard work of community building ⁓ coalition building the type of movement building. Jason, I know that you, ⁓ you are heavily, heavily involved in, and I'm sure we'll be the topic of a future episode. Like there are things you can do, Practically in terms of, Even if you as an individual, like part of it will be joining with others, and keeping community strong. think that was one of Snyder's big things is like the worst thing that can happen is growing isolation. But in it, but as an educator, I also try to, whether wearing the hat of a theologian or wearing the hat ⁓ of the philosopher classroom teacher. try to change how we view some of this stuff, even though I realize I'm going and I'm doing an uphill battle here. But that's all I can do as an individual, but hopefully by joining with others as part of different movements or acts of solidarity. And the Bible talks all the time about remnants. I understand I may never be in the majority and I'm at peace with that. would like to be, but I'm okay if I'm not.
Muoki Musau: Amen.
Matthew Brake: So, so that's the...
Jason Bayless: A woman.
Matthew Brake: ⁓ Remember Angels in the Outfield? Remember that? That happens in there. Look, it's got thumbnail and amen, or a woman maybe. There was the whole, yeah. All right. We have been going a while. There is application sort of in what we've said so far towards the end. But I think this is a good place maybe to land the plane. For those of you who were listening in, crash landing, thank you for.
Jason Bayless: You
Muoki Musau: ⁓ man.
Jason Bayless: Trashland day.
Muoki Musau: Ha
Matthew Brake: Staying with us to the crash landing. Again, thank you for joining us. We will be having more episodes, hopefully every other week, ⁓ coming And each one will be tackling one question, which if you ⁓ are, the next question could ask ⁓ leading into the next is, what will the next podcast about? I don't know, but you'll have to tune in to find out. So thank you all for joining us and ⁓ have a good day.
Muoki Musau: Peace and love.
Jason Bayless: Hey.