When Experience Becomes Intuition with Maria Di Pietro
[00:00:00]
Geoff: So Maria, you've been a psychologist for a long time. So, a long time. So what do you notice about people now compared to when you first began?
Maria: I think what I have realized as time's gone on is that everybody's got a story. Everybody's got probably challenges that they've overcome, and people are essentially the same from, you know, 20, 25 years ago and at what they are now. So even with all the technology and all the information that people can get, at their very core, humans are humans
Geoff: Have you got a, a story that, or an experience that taught you that? Probably plenty
Maria: well, yeah, I was gonna say plenty and none that particularly come to mind. Um, e- e- except to say probably that, um, y- you know, I've, I've had a [00:01:00] private practice in the past. I've, I've recently reactivated that. I've worked in organizations. And I've worked in, uh, different kinds of organizations from healthcare to education to manufacturing, and every time I change industries, I get the same question. "Oh, wow, this is a really different industry, isn't it?" And I say, "But humans are humans wherever you go. The issues are the same." You know, there's... People kind of can't get along with each other or, um, they don't like their boss or they're overwhelmed or they're burnt out. Like, the issues don't really change, which is why I say that it, it doesn't matter how much we've, we've grown or, you know, technology has come into play. We are, are humans, uh, humans that need contact, human contact. We're social creatures. Um, and we're also very much creatures of habit too. So yeah, that's... I can't think of a particular story, but I think, you [00:02:00] know, um, if, if I think of one I'll bring it up.
Geoff: Yeah. I'm just curious, you said we've all got-- it all finishes up as stories. Is that paraphrasing it or did I
Maria: Oh, sorry. We all finish up as stories
Geoff: what you're hearing is consistent stories across things. So clearly you're listening out for stories
Maria: Yes. And, and patterns, you know, and, and ways of behaving. That, that, that's, that, that's... It's sort of the same across the board. What we have is, um, I think d- different, different, uh, types of psychological, uh, techniques appear. Uh, different systems of work, if you like. The way psychologists work and the sort of techniques they use.
New ones appear. Um, but at the end of the day, y- you're kinda dealing with the same problems. So it may be even a change in, in name. So maybe in the past the word anxiety didn't get used as much. Uh, [00:03:00] certainly, um, you know, d- diver- diversity and, and neurodiversity wasn't a thing. ADHD wasn't a thing, whereas now it really is. But the kinds of symptoms, the kinds of behaviors... I mean, some, some behaviors have definitely escalated and are more prevalent, but, you know, anxiety, uh, stress, overwhelm, kinda the same. They haven't changed all that much. So, um, yeah
Geoff: And are people telling the same stories? Is that what you're hearing?
Maria: Um, essentially, the, the situation might be different. So a, a, a story does come to mind. Um, one of my... Well, it was my first job actually out of uni. Um, and the place I worked was quite a well-known place. I'm not gonna mention names. But one of the managers there, um, would probably [00:04:00] not get away with his behavior these days, 'cause he was much a bully.
He was, he was a very, um, aggressive, the way he treated people. Um, so we still get that nowadays, except we've got laws in place to sort of mitigate that behavior and the impacts of it, and we have, you know, EAPs and lots of support for people. Um, but that, it, the scenarios can, can be the same in some instances.
You've still got someone who's kind of the bully and behaving, um, inappropriately towards someone else. Um, so that, that, it- Do you know, like, that's a story where it hasn't changed. It's just back then were no real laws. You know, people just tolerated it. You just tolerated his behavior. So
Geoff: So what do you think's changed in the last 20 years such that we don't tolerate it anymore?
Maria: Oh, I think there's a, a lot more awareness about what is appropriate behavior, what is good interpersonal communication, [00:05:00] interpersonal skills. And we have, um, we have laws to back it up. You know, like, we've created laws now. We, we've y- you know, there are laws where you can't be a bully in the workplace.
I mean, you can be, but if you get reported, and it could, you know, could, could end up in court. Um, whereas that was not there back then. That just wasn't there. You know, it was still this, um, attitude of y- you tolerate it or you leave. Whereas nowadays, there's a lot of, there's a lot of support available for people, and there's a lot of pathways where people can report that kind of behavior, which is a good thing, actually. Um, it means that, um, you know, managers, leaders, or business owners, or who- whoever the people in authority are, more of a, of a responsibility to kind of clean up their act. Y- y- you know? Like, that's ... I remember, um, years ago rolling out a bullying awareness [00:06:00] program, um, in a government department and, um, it was a very h- uh, high male-dominated, um, environment.
And, know, some of the guys would say, "W- what do you mean you can't say that anymore? You can't..." A- a- and, you know, y- it's not really appropriate that you continue saying it. You know, like, we're t- trying to teach you now that, that y- you gotta, you kinda gotta be nicer. You know? You gotta look at your own behavior, be more aware of what's the impact you're having on somebody else. Um, which I think that was lacking. Like, it was just, "That's who I am." Or you still hear it these days, actually. You know, "Oh, it's just him," or, "It's just her. That's just how she is." I still hear that this day. Um, but like I said, there, there's more support available for, for people that are, um, perhaps experiencing that inappropriate behavior towards them and, and there's certainly more pathways for, um, you know, doing something about that, reporting it.
Geoff: [00:07:00] Hmm. So when you sit down with somebody, what are the things you notice or are looking for? So let's say I come into the room, you're a psychologist, we're gonna meet about something. As a client, let's say I come in as a client. What, what are the things that you start to look for
Maria: Um,
Geoff: listen for?
Maria: always, I, I, I always, um, obviously have a completely impartial view and let you start talking. Like, you know, usually the question is, "Why are you here?" Um, sometimes you get, "I'm not sure." But, you know, you- something has, something has prompted you to come and seek help, and it's usually to do with, uh, wanting something to change, um, and, and quite possibly wanting you, you yourself want something to change in the way you feel.
So people don't go to therapy if they're feeling great. You go to therapy 'cause you're not feeling good. You're [00:08:00] either, you know, you're depressed, or you're angry, or you're sad, or you... But you might not have recognized exactly what is going on for you. You just know that you do not feel good. you know, the first thing I need to know is what's going on.
Like, why are you here? Um, and sometimes it might lead straight into, what do you want to be different? You know, what, what do you wanna be different, or what do you wanna change? Which is quite confronting sometimes for people if they're not feeling good, and especially if they've got a, like, you know, if there's someone else involved in the situation, and it can be, "I don't need to change anything.
They need to change."
Geoff: hmm
Maria: which is always an interesting one, and I usually let's say, "Well, they're not sitting in front of me, but you are. And so we could potentially change something in you so that you can perceive the situation differently and consider doing something differently that might actually change the whole scenario." [00:09:00] I mean, that's very simplified. You know, very... We're not gonna do all of that necessarily in the first session, but it's, it's kind of, um, you know, people, I think, n- n- wanting something to change. That, that, that's essentially why you go to see someone. You need something to
Geoff: Are they, do they often find it hard to articulate what they want to change then? Like, just can't put it into words or
Maria: Sometimes Yes, sometimes, sometimes. Uh, uh, because, um, I think sometimes humans find it very difficult to express the emotion or the feeling
Geoff: Mm-hmm.
Maria: And, um, I have a, a model that I use called four basic emotions. Sad, mad, glad, scared. those four basic emotions can pretty much sum up, um, you know, how a person might be feeling.
It's actually a really good, good model to use with, with anybody really. Adults, children. When people can't [00:10:00] explain what's happening for them and you say, "Well, which of these, if you had to choose, which of these emotions do you think is the kind of m- major emotion for you? Is it sad? Is it mad or angry? Is it, um, fear or, or scared? Uh, and it's not gonna be glad, 'cause you're sitting here telling me you're not feeling good." And so, you know, being able to at least, um, identify one of those starts to give the person bit more control over it. And so then we can move on and say, "Well, it's okay to feel that. Like, you're not bad for feeling it, and you don't have to let it..." Um, well, I use really simple language and I say, "You don't need to be freaked out by your emotion." It's, it's identifying it is also, like, owning it. Like, we can get to... And when people say, "You know, you gotta own it," what that means is y- you've g- you've just gotta m- accept [00:11:00] that that's how you're feeling. It doesn't mean you have to do anything about it immediately. So if you've been feeling... Well, I've got, I've got a, um, an e- an example actually where, um... And this is, I've got one person in m- I'm thinking about. But this happens, I've seen it over the years with, with women that are unhappy perhaps in the home life because they end up doing everything or... And so they get very frustrated and angry, but they hold the anger in. And then they, it comes out as, you know, emotional or teary or, um... And, and you know, I can say to them, "Look, if you're being really honest with yourself, you think you might be frustrated?" they go, "Yes, yes. You know, I do everything." I go, "Okay. So it's, it's okay to be frustrated, ' cause you don't want it to be like that.
So th- let's have a look at that and how maybe, um, you might be able to change something really minor that could have an [00:12:00] impact. So, you know, could you take yourself off and do something nice for yourself for one hour on the weekend?" "Oh, well, I, I guess. You know, uh, you know. Y- you think the housework could kind of just wait for an hour or maybe y-..."
Do you know what I mean? Like, just little things that perhaps people kind of get into this pattern of, "Oh, no, you know, Saturday mornings is cleaning morning and nothing can change that." And, and you go, "Mm, actually it can." I- if you wanted to, you don't have, it's, uh, it sounds very simple. It's not simple when you're in it, but it, there are, I, I think there's solutions to everything. it's not the solution you want, but it is a solution. So,
Geoff: Mm-hmm.
Maria: it's
Geoff: So what, what are you thinking of or feeling when you're talking to someone about this?
Maria: Ah, I love this question. Do you know what? Through my whole career as a psychologist, [00:13:00] m- I can always... Well, usually I should say, almost always, I can see the potential in people before they can see it. 'Cause I always think we've got much more potential than we allow ourselves to see or feel. And so it used to frustrate me, I'd think, "If they just did that," you know? it's not... It doesn't frustrate me anymore, but I, it, it, yeah, I, I can see the potential of change, for change in people when they either, you know, can't see it yet, or they don't wanna see it, or they're too frightened to change it, or whatever the reason is. So then my job is to help them get to that, that version of themselves somehow.
Geoff: Mm-hmm. And is that a, a joyful experience for you? It sounds like it is.
Maria: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. I, I, I [00:14:00] think there's, uh, you know, it's a wonderful feeling having someone come in feeling terrible and negative or crying or angry or whatever, and having them leave with a smile on their face or saying, know, that was really good." And, uh, uh, sometimes I, I've done a lot of EAP, like for corporates, and sometimes people are sort of, know, told they have to see the psychologist.
And of the time when they, at the end they go, "Oh, that wasn't so bad." I go, "It wasn't, was it?" You know? So that's always nice. I, I, I do. I mean, I, I, I, I love what I do and I love people and, um, I always have. So it is a joy. Yeah
Geoff: Yeah, no, I can hear it in your voice. It sounds like you get a thrill from it. You're trying to help people. Hmm
Maria: there is, there is an ex- um, a, a, a, a, how do I put this? Like a, an acceptance also some people, th- they just don't wanna change. So even though they've [00:15:00] had a session, it's been a good session, they, they really are re- reluctant to keep going. And so, you know, first I used to kind of feel a bit unhappy, if you like, about that.
But now I think, well, they're all, everyone's on their path. When they're ready, you know, they'll come back or they'll go to someone else, whatever. I don- I don't mind. Whatever. Just, I just want people to, you know, kind of be happier, find solutions, um, reach their potential
Maria: Yeah
Geoff: Have you ever had a situation where you think you've made it worse?
Maria: Um, not that I can think of, and not that anyone's told me, so I don't think so. I mean, the only, um... I do recall one, um, one gentleman I saw, and we worked for quite a while. He saw me quite, quite a few times and, um, [00:16:00] and one day he, he called me and he said, "I couldn't wait until our next session." He said, " I've realized something."
And I said, "O- okay." He said, "I don't love my wife anymore." And I thought, "Oh, God, that's, that's a big realization." But he said, "No, it's really good because I think it's been sitting there." He goes, "I've even talked to her about it, and she kind of feels the same way." So it all worked out in the end. But, you know, I know that could have gone either way, right? So, but he, yeah, he, he got happy and re- you know, that was his realization, and, she was okay with it, and I think they both went on and remarried and had more kids and all good in the end.
Geoff: Oh good.
Maria: so
Geoff: So
Maria: don't know if anybody, you know, got worse. I hope not
Geoff: So are often your conversations like that where you don't know which way they're going to go?
Maria: Sorry, d- does it happen?
Geoff: So [00:17:00] your conversations are often like, are your conversations like that where you kind of don't know which way it's gonna go? Somebody says something and you're like, "Oh, hang on
Maria: Usually, it, it, those kinds of realizations, um, know, that big, o- often will happen in between sessions, 'cause people go away and reflect or, you know, we've done some... I, I like to call myself an active psychologist, so, so, I don't just do conversational therapy. It's, um, some techniques I use actually, um, you know, get to the core of the issue and help people, um, with visualization or, um, sort of more heartfelt type therapy.
Um, you know, uh, uh, tapping or energy psychology type therapy. So, um, we don't just sit and talk. Uh, sometimes, sometimes that's necessary. Um, so once people have [00:18:00] had quite a transformational session, it's when they go away and then maybe some, you know, reflection and, and, um, realizations might, might come through, not necessarily in the session.
Sometimes it's in the session. It really just depends where people are at and they're, what they're wanting, and how desperate they are really
Geoff: Hmm. So am I free?
Maria: too,
Geoff: Sorry
Maria: can I, can I just add this? I mean, sometimes people come in to see me, not necessarily 'cause they've got a deep negative issue. they may want to, uh, enhance an area of their life or get better at something. Like, like relationships perhaps. Like, they know that things could be better, they're just not quite sure how. Um, or, you know, with their children. Like, I, I know I'm a good mother or a father, but I know I could do better, I just can't quite work out [00:19:00] how.
Or, you know, my, my 16-year-old doesn't say much to me, which is what most 16-year-olds do, but how can, how can I entice them to, you know, be more communicative or... So it, it, it doesn't have to always be I've got a, a, a big problem or, you know, something
negative. It can be looking for a bit of coaching around improving something, enhancing something,
Geoff: Mm-hmm.
Maria: as well.
Geoff: Yeah, I just want to go back to what you kind of said about how you approach it, that it sounded like in the beginning you were a lot about the words, but now you're looking more at energy. Is that accurate or?
Maria: I do work with energy quite a bit because I think we are energetic beings. Um, we all have a vibe. So even if people go, "Ah, this energy stuff." But we all have a vibe. You know, we've all walked into a room and got a bit of a vibe. Uh, what's going on in here? Something... There's a bit of I could touch, I could cut the tension [00:20:00] with a knife type thing.
Geoff: Mhm
Maria: that's energy. That's vibe, yeah?
Geoff: Ja
Maria: meet someone, you go, "I don't know, I just got a bad feeling from them." So we- we're all capable of doing that. It's whether we pay attention to it or not. And so, um, yeah, I, I do work with, with, with energy and, and vibe, if you like, um, with, with clients
Geoff: Hmm. So h-how do you pay attention to it? What are you paying attention to?
Maria: Well, you're probably using... Not probably, I know you, I know I am. You use your intuition, you use your, um, you know, your gut feel, but it's backed up with years of experience
Geoff: Mm-hmm.
Maria: well. and you trust yourself. You, you, you have to trust yourself, not go, "Oh, I don't know about that. Does that? No, maybe, no, no.
I've, I'm b- I'm probably being silly." You know? You, you don't... I don't do that. I, I know when my, my intuitive self comes forth with some thought or impression, I'll trust [00:21:00] it
Geoff: So does that mean you'll say it or you'll explore it, or what do you do with it?
Maria: absolutely depends on the situation. Absolutely depends. Um, there have been a couple of instances where, um, you know, a client's sitting in front of me telling me something, and I've got a very strong gut feeling that this is not entirely true. So I'm, I'm not going to say to them, "I think you're a liar." Um, we explore what they're saying and h- what's going on for them and, um, you know, kinda see what happens and j- j- just gently guide them towards more truthful. Um, I don't think you can, you know, come straight out and say, "You're lying, 'cause my gut tells me you're lying." No, that doesn't... No.
Geoff: No, no.
Maria: No.
Geoff: I definitely didn't mean it in that way. It was more like, "Oh, how does Maria do this? Like, what is she looking for? What..." And even down to, I know when I've done fasting, it's kind of like this experience around [00:22:00] what is hunger? And it's like, well, what, what we were told was that hunger's not actually in your stomach, it's more likely to be in your lips.
So wetting your lips and having a drink can actually relieve more hunger. So this,
Maria: hmm
Geoff: is your intuition? Where does the intuition sit for you? Where do you get the feeling?
Maria: I get the feeling in my body,
Geoff: Mhm.
Maria: head.
Geoff: oh yeah?
Maria: Body.
Geoff: yeah
Maria: yep. Um, if you kinda know about, you know, energy centers in the body, um, in the, in the, um, solar plexus is, is where you probably feel it. Um, sometimes now because I've been working that way for such a long time, I don't even think about where it sits necessarily, ' cause
Geoff: yeah okay
Maria: feeling.
Geoff: hmm
Maria: It's just a... You just know. It's like a knowing. Y- you know, like, how, how can I explain it? Like, you just know, and if you had to try and explain how you know, [00:23:00] you can't explain it. Trying to think of an example, but I'm sure that's happened to you, Jeff, where you just know something. Not,
Geoff: Absolutely
Maria: type thing, just a knowing. You just know. Like, you know, you just know these, um, conversations are good. Like, you just know that it's gonna work. I mean, you come into this conversation going, "Oh, God, I hope Maria speaks okay." Um, I mean, we know each other of course, but you just kind of know that it's gonna go okay.
Like, you, you, like you said, you don't necessarily have a structured script, but you just trust that it's gonna go in the direction that it needs to go. That's a knowing. So if I said to you, "How do you know that?" And you go, "I don't know, I just do." You know?
Geoff: Yeah, I laugh because it's kind of like at times I feel like, "Oh, wow, isn't this going great?" And at times it's like, "Oh my God, we're going off course somewhere." And it's kind of like,
Maria: to go [00:24:00] though?
Geoff: well, it actually is come back to the knowing. It's like, how do I know this is on course or off course? Well, I, no, I don't. I just have a sense of it.
And it's like, "Oh, that sounds interesting. Let's go over there and explore that."
Maria: mhm, mhm,
Geoff: and the intuition one's a curious one because often we'll put words around things and think that's knowing. But intuition may be knowing without the words, which is different.
Maria: Mm-hmm. And intuition, I think, I think we all have intuition. Some of us have just developed it more than others. So, you know, you hear people saying, "Oh, wish I could be more, uh, you know, A- and you say, well, you, you... There's things you have to do in order to be more intuitive. A- and one is you gotta start trusting yourself.
Like, you, you get a thought, you trust that thought. Or if you have any doubt, like sometimes, uh, people can go, "Oh, I [00:25:00] think I should do that. yeah, I should do it. Well, I think." And you go, "That's not intuition." 'Cause when it's true intuition, there's no I think.
Geoff: Yeah.
Maria: Mm. You just know
Geoff: Okay
Maria: you just know to do it.
And so, y- but you can develop that. Like, I know I have always had a bit of intuition, but I did do a bit of study around, um, you know, developing my intuition, getting to know myself more, being self-aware, um, and, and kind of, you know, metaphysics, if you like. Like, how d- how does it all happen? And I, I, out of all that, I honestly believe that the biggest thing that came out of it was trusting myself and trusting the, the, the feeling and the, the knowing.
Um, and, and kind of, as they say, getting out of my own way, not questioning it. Not questioning it, you know? Um, yeah. That's-
Geoff: how do you apply that in your own life?
Maria: Oh, all the time. [00:26:00] All the time. Um, I've, I've... I don't even think about it now, 'cause I, I really do run on intuition a lot. Like I meditate and I, you know, that, that kind of coming back to center type thing and calming the body. But, uh, uh, it's always there. It's always there. I, I, I don't need to think about doing it 'cause it's there.
I mean, I can even do it... Well, you and I have had this conversation with food. get a feeling about it, I go, "I can't eat that." And then if I eat it, it doesn't work. I knew, you know? It's, it's, um, you just develop this kind of highly intuitive approach, and you really know yourself and trust yourself.
I think that's the core of it really
Geoff: So what does trusting yourself feel like? Like, I presume it's a feeling or is it located
Maria: Uh,
Geoff: somewhere?
Maria: It's, it's... Well, it's, uh, uh, trusting yourself is not doubting yourself. It's, it's kind of the [00:27:00] opposite. So not second-guessing yourself. Um, that doesn't mean that you follow every intuitive feel or thought. Um, but y- you don't, you don't get in your own way. I know I, I say that a lot, but it, it, it, it is, um... Trusting yourself is, is not second-guessing. But until you develop that trust, that's what you'll do. You'll second-guess yourself. Oh, maybe I should take that job, or maybe not. May- well, should I? I don't know. Should... I, I, I have a, um, a little kind of, um, process that I've done with people who, who get into that space of do I, don't I?
And I think, well, if you've got two choices, okay, you've got two choices. I get people to stand, know, in one position and feel into what it feels like to take one of those choices, then take a step to the left or the right and completely step into the other choice, and what does it feel like if you took that [00:28:00] choice?
Geoff: Mm-hmm.
Maria: And often, just that process itself very quickly gets people to go, "Oh, yeah, I know which one I'm gonna do." And, and, and the follow-up then is, and if it doesn't work, you've actually got the other option to fall back on. So it doesn't kind of matter. D- do you know what I mean? Like, that's also trusting yourself, that I'll go with this one because it felt like the right one at this particular time, and if it doesn't work, then maybe I can revisit the other one.
I mean, that's not always... Like, if we're talking, say, a job, for example, um, it might be that the other job's not available anymore. But if your gut tells you that the choice you've made is the choice you should make, it'll probably work, 'cause you're trusting your gut. You're trusting yourself. Does that make sense?
Geoff: Yeah, it does. Yeah.
Maria: So-
Geoff: it's just, um, hearing someone explain it because it's often not [00:29:00] got words around it. It's just like I know that's the answer and I'm going over here, and what else is there? Um-
Maria: know, you're challenging me by, by getting me to explain this 'cause you don't
Geoff: Yeah
Maria: it, you just do it.
Geoff: Well, that's the tricky part about it, isn't it? It's kind of what this whole conversation about experience is. Because we all go, "Oh yeah, I've got experience." But what does your experience actually look like? What does it mean? How do you use it? And it's kind of like, oh, I use my intuition. So what does that look like?
How do we use it? Have there been situations where it hasn't worked for you?
Maria: Mm, mm. And, and you know, like I said before, it's intuition with experience.
Geoff: Hmm. Which is a double,
Maria: much...
Geoff: isn't it?
Maria: Yes, yes, yes. And, um, it's just gone. I've had something in my head then. Um, oh, sorry. It might come back to me
Geoff: That's okay. Um, maybe you weren't meant, meant to say [00:30:00] it.
Maria: Yeah, there you go. There you go. Oh, I know what I was gonna say. I knew it'd come back. Um, I know like, I'm sure for you, 'cause we've had these conversations in the past, I had to get over imposter syndrome. You know, we, we've... I think most people have to get over that at some point in their life, and it still rears its head every now and again, but you quickly go, " Nah, not going there.
Don't need to anymore." But it, it's just, I think, again, it's a bit of a human, um, you know, human condition, if you like. That you start to then trust yourself and say, "Well, I, I do have the experience and I, you know, I can do it. Of course I can. Why am I doubting myself?" And then the trust kicks in, and the confidence kicks in, and you stop comparing yourself to other people, and you follow your path.
Geoff: Hmm.
Maria: That sound lovely? So
Geoff: Yeah.
Maria: simple.
Geoff: As if there is the path and I'm gonna [00:31:00] follow that one,
Maria: Yeah,
Geoff: and maybe there is one. Um, so when you say you're relying on your experience, is that kind of, "I've been there before"? Is that your version of experience? Or, "I've done that before," or, "I know how to handle it," or
Maria: A little bit of all of them, but I don't really think of experience as I've done that before. It's kind of the wisdom you've collected from your, all your, you know, past, if you like, that can be, um, transmuted and transferred, if you like. You know, like transferable skills. And so you don't have to have gone through something, specifically to be able to recognize what it is or know how to handle it. That, I think, is experience to me, that you, yeah, you don't... Uh, do you know, years and years and years ago, when my lovely Italian mother was having an issue with me and, um, you know, thought that I should be her psychologist, to which I said, [00:32:00] "Absolutely not, because I'm the problem, Mom. I can't be your psychologist as well."
Um, and she, she... I said to her, "I can find you a psychologist and a, and an Italian-speaking psychologist." She goes, "Oh, no, no, no, no. How can she understand what I'm going through if she's never been through it?" And I thought, "Wow, that's really interesting, because I've never been through mothering me, and yet you want me to be your psychologist , you know?"
So as a psychologist, it got me thinking. I certainly, and, and no psychologist, has experienced every single issue that a client brings in. your, your, your experience, your knowledge, um, and h- hopefully your, your, you know, like, your intuition helps you help that person because of the, like, the transferable skills or your, your experience, et cetera. So
Geoff: Is it harder to trust yourself in a new situation?
Maria: N- not if you've developed [00:33:00] trust. At least for me. I don't go into any situation thinking, "Oh my God, what am I gonna do?" I trust that I'll know what to do.
Geoff: yeah
Maria: also trust, but I'll also trust if I feel that I can't... That's not a situation for me. Like, that's not, you know... Uh, there are, there have been jobs that have come my way, um, where I'll say, "No, I'm not taking that on," 'cause I know I don't have the skills or the appropriate, you know, quals for that.
So no. That's trusting myself as well, rather than kind gung ho, "Oh, yeah, yeah, I'll just say yes to everything." That's, that's a level of trust as well.
Geoff: Yeah. Yeah, I think there's a
Maria: it's,
Geoff: element of being present to yourself, isn't there?
Maria: Absolutely. Yeah.
Geoff: You know, rather than out there. It's like you gotta be checking in. So is it much more internal for yourself? So I kinda get that you're listening, [00:34:00] noticing the person in front of you, but you're also checking in with yourself constantly.
So is that what's going on?
Maria: Yes, yes, yes. Constantly. Constantly. And I, and I, and I know you know this, I, I do a lot of, like, group work and go into corporations and organizations to help with, um, you know, HR issues or, um, you know, people, any people issues, or critical incident debriefing or if there's been a, you know, a critical incident, a, a traumatic event.
Um, and, uh, that, that to me also my, my, my trust and my intuition kicks in so that I know how I'm going to... Not necessarily what I'm going to do, but I trust that I'll know what to do when, when I'm there. And, and of course I do every single time, but that's also where the experience comes in as well.
Geoff: Mm-hmm.
Maria: You, you, you lump, sorry, you combine the trust and the experience and you go, "Of course I can, I can handle that.
Whatever needs to be done, it'll be okay. [00:35:00] be able to support these people in this way."
Geoff: Hmm.
Maria: Mm.
Geoff: Yeah, one of the things I wanted to ask you, it's almost like the, I don't know what relationship it has to experience, but where does trauma fit into experience? And can one incident change your whole future?
Maria: Oh, I, I believe it can. I think if, you know, w- many traumatic events can... Or s- many people have been, um, deeply affected by a traumatic event that's changed the traject- tra- trajectory of their life. Of course. Of course it can. Um, and, and then it... You know, I, I always like, um, to listen to people's inspiring stories, you know, out of this negative, something positive came out of it. Um, so it's, it's, you know, I feel blessed. I've, I've not been through a really terrible, terrible traumatic anything. I mean, you know, been through divorce and, you know, death of a parent, [00:36:00] but nothing e- I mean, they can be traumatic, of course, of course. Um, but I was, I was, um, listening to a podcast this morning where they were talking about the, um, that, uh, female, the first female, um, millionaire in, in America, and she was a, a, a slave, Black girl when she was 14 or even before that, you know, abused sexually, physically. Um, and, um, she went on to d- to, to, me, to discover a, a, um, a hair product for, you know, Black women for their hair, and I can't remember her name, and I can't remember her product's name, but it is still, today you can still buy it. And it was because she lost all her hair. Again, I can't remember exactly why, if it was through the trauma, the traumatic, you know, incredibly traumatic life she'd had, where her, all her hair fell out, or if someone had actually shaved her head.
I, I don't remember. [00:37:00] But, um, she had to find a way to kind of, you know, regrow her hair, and it led her to something so great. And of course, then she, um, used her influence, her status to get, um... to influence reform for slaves America back then. So, you know, stories like that, um... And that, that's a big one, but there's lots of smaller stories, if you like, or stories that don't quite hit the news or where people have done something extraordinary out of the traumatic event that's happened in their life. Um, so it can go sort of either way, can't it? Some people don't make it out well from a traumatic experience. Um, and I think it, you know, depends on the support you've got around you, uh, the people that are around you. Um, don't know. Just, yeah. So yes, trauma can definitely, um, [00:38:00] change your life.
Geoff: And, and I, I think it's a curious one of some people, or let's say two people experience the same thing. One person gets traumatized from it, the other doesn't.
Maria: Mm-hmm.
Geoff: have you come across that or?
Maria: Oh, yes, yes. And, and look, there, there's actual e- um, evidence and research around why that happens, and it... There's a few factors that, um, can determine that. Um, prior kind of traumatic events and how you've... how things have, have, have evolved from them, the type of support you're getting, your family situation, your social connections, um, your personality. Um, there's all sorts of things that can influence how somebody, um, is impacted by trauma. So, and there's a lot of... Nowadays, there's a lot more understanding and, um, research around how trauma itself sits in our body as a physical reaction- Mm-hmm ... rather [00:39:00] than just sitting in our brain as a memory, or, or as a recall of the...
And so yeah, there's a, a- amazing somatic clinicians around that help people re- remove the trauma from their body in a physical way. Um, and then the person can, can start to, um, you know, heal the, the traumatic memories as well. So things have really changed in the trauma space, very much so.
Geoff: Hmm.
Maria: And I
Geoff: about in the intuition space? Does that apply for intuition as well? Like, it's kind of the reverse. We're trying to remove the trauma in the body, but we can enhance the intuition in the body in the same way?
Maria: Oh, yes. Yes. As I said before, I think, I think, um, anyone can, can learn to be more intuitive. I think it's a skill that you can, you can learn. Uh, it's, it's, um, yeah, it's, it's, it, it's a skill just like [00:40:00] more assertive or more, um, um, like non- non-reactive. You know humans, something happens and you go, "Oh my God, blah."
You know? So, so learning to, like, count to 10 and take ... Just, just reflect before you speak. They're, they're all skills that you can learn. So intuition is, is the same. You learn to trust your gut feeling. You learn to trust yourself. I know we keep coming back to this word trust, but it really is about that. and, and, and sometimes, I think sometimes, it's ... it can be challenging recognize something and trust your feeling about it, 'cause it actually might be telling you that whatever is going on is not good, and you might need to change it. Like, you know, if you're battling at work and you're always stressed and what- and your gut's telling you this is not the job for you, but it's a really high-paying job, [00:41:00] and it gives you lots of benefits, and it's really Do, do you know what I mean? But at, at the core, if you're really, really honest with yourself, know you probably shouldn't be there because it's not really, really working for you. But then you're trying to balance, you know, the, the, the, the benefits versus the feeling. uh, it, that, that then becomes a choice, doesn't it?
It becomes a And it, it's not always simple though. It's not always simple. If you are, um, supporting a family, the kids are at private schools, you, you know, you got a mortgage, you It's not that easy to say, "I hate my job. I'm gonna go get something that I really love and, and, but it's gonna pay half the amount."
Mm. Not that easy. So you gotta work out then how am I going to what I'm doing and how I'm feeling for a few more years, do it well. And so then that's a different, different pathway. You, you gotta learn to, um [00:42:00] You gotta find the good in that situation that not making you feel good. But I think you can. You have to in a sense.
Geoff: So how do you... So it sounds like you're really comfortable with intuition. How do you... Well, if you actually had to talk to your clients about intuition, where do you think they would be? Are they on the same page or-
Maria: I have, I have, I have talked to some of them about it
Geoff: Yeah
Maria: it's so strong that I say, "Look, I just wanna put something on the table." I can gauge w- how their reaction is. But usually because it really is spot on, th- they,
they like it. Like, they like it, you know? Um, I've, I've found myself saying, "I need to ask you something that might be a little bit, mm, left of center, a little bit confronting, but I, I, I just feel that I need to ask you.
Is that okay?" And they go, "Yes." And then I ask the question, and it is absolutely spot on. They go, "Hmm, that's a really [00:43:00] good question. You know, that's really getting to the core." You're really stuck on this intuition thing, hey, Jeff.
Geoff: Well, I haven't come across it in my other conversations, and I just think it's one of those ones that, like, I think I'm intuitive around a lot of things I do. Like you said it before, there's lots of things I know, I don't know how I know them. I just go, "Oh, that's the right answer. Go that way." I can- And it's not like-- It's a bit like, um, when you collapse a lot of information into, "Oh, that's the answer."
There- So there's the cognitive part of that. I get that. So it's trying to just hear some other people explain it or talk about it and how they use it. I'm kind of curious about it because I think that sheds a light on how I operate a lot of the time, and I don't necessarily have words for it. It's just like, "Oh, that's the right answer," or, "I should talk to Maria.
That'll be a good conversation." And then I've done
Maria: and you've just reminded me, you know, there has [00:44:00] been, there has been research done, I can't quote it, but I do remember it. They interviewed the CEOs of, um, you know, Fortune 500 companies, and they found that most of them make their decisions based on a gut feeling and then back it up with facts and, and, and, um, uh, you know, numbers and things. So people might not think they're using intuition- But they are.
Geoff: Mm-hmm. That, that's what I think she wants to talk about a lot
Maria: Yes, yes, yes. A- a- and I've been saying it's intuition backed up with experience,
Geoff: Mm-hmm.
Maria: and it's the same kind of thing. Like, the, the CEOs are making intuitive decisions and then backing it up with fact and numbers
Geoff: Yeah. Daniel Kahneman won his Nobel Prize basically for coming up with that. You know, that basically the brain research showed that [00:45:00] that's the way we do things. It's not the other way around. So that's why it's
Maria: no
Geoff: interesting to hear it. And intuition's different to... Um, often people talk about emotion, but then what's-- well, what do you see as the overlap or difference there?
So intuition is a feeling, intuition is an emotion, intuition
Maria: intuition,
Geoff: Oh, we stuck these drawers here.
Maria: it. Well, intuition is a knowing.
Geoff: Mm-hmm
Maria: it as a thought or as a feeling. You can't see me pointing to my gut, but it's, you know, it's, it's just a knowing. Um, whereas feeling a- and emotions different.
So, so it's funny 'cause I just saw a, a little thing about the difference between emotions and feelings this morning, which I thought was quite, quite good and quite interesting. And, and what it said was, "An emotion is the reaction you have to something." So, um,
Geoff: [00:46:00] Mhm.
Maria: say I s- I broke out into swear words right now. Your, your emotion, you might have this emotional reaction of, um, surprise and maybe even disappointment 'cause you're gonna have to bleep half the, uh, you know, this conversation out,
Geoff: wait, wait
Maria: I wanna... That's right. And then the, the feeling is, the feeling is what you continue to feel after we're finished. So
Geoff: Mhm
Maria: feeling might then be, " Wow, I, I don't know if I like Maria the way I used to like her before. I had no idea she had that in her." You know, like so you, you... The, the, the feeling stays even when the reaction has happened, which is the emotion. So you, yeah. So, and it, it actually, it's making me think of another, another interesting thing that happens with people. We can either hang on to feeling [00:47:00] or we can choose to let it go, we don't forget the memory. We just can change the feeling attached to the memory. Does that make sense? So
Geoff: Yes
Maria: example. Okay, I'll give you an example, a personal example. So, uh, you know, I've been through a divorce and, uh, um, after like a number of years and lots of therapy, I could the, the divorce and, you know, going through the separation and everything, um, as I still can now of course, but it doesn't have the emotional triggers associated with it that it used to have. And so now when I think about it, it's like I'm remembering a movie
Geoff: Mhm
Maria: that I watched. That, that's how I like to explain it. So you can remove the trigger or the emotion attached to a memory so that the memory doesn't trigger that emo- emotion.
Geoff: Yep. [00:48:00] Yep. Yep. So
Maria: you can think of something yourself, I'm sure, in the past.
Geoff: I've got plenty of examples. I got a, I got a notebook full of them. But that's also one practice to write them down and they just don't hang around as much in the same way.
Maria: Mm-hmm
Geoff: So after all these years of working with people as a psychologist, how has this shaped how you see people today?
Maria: So I think something that, um, I've always had but it's been solidified is the, the power and the courage of the human spirit. That's, that's something I see all the time. You know, everybody's got their own things they're going through, challenges, whatever, but we keep going. people keep going. Like, they, they actually cope very well. surprised at the [00:49:00] number of people that don't have a psychologist, really. But no, I think the human spirit is incredible. Uh, it's, it's incredible. more courageous than, than, you know... Most people are more courageous than they give themselves credit for.
Geoff: Hmm. And is that something you've taken on in your own life deliberately or unconsciously?
Maria: For myself, you mean?
Geoff: Yeah
Maria: Uh Probably when you, you know, when you look back over your life and think about things you've been through and things that you've done, decisions you've made, choices you've made, and you can, you can look at those things and go, "Wow, I don't think I really knew what I was doing then, but I did it anyway. You know? I think that was pretty good." Um, but I, I think we also tend to forget and we, we just kind of discount it as, "Oh, you know, that was just what I did." Until you maybe [00:50:00] give yourself some time and go, "Hang on a minute, that was pretty bloody courageous actually." You know?
Geoff: Mm-hmm.
Maria: yeah.
Geoff: Yeah, I remember when I went overseas, it was just like I didn't think anything of it. Whereas now I go, "Oh, I'm not sure whether I wanna do that."
Maria: Yes. Yes, yes,
Geoff: Not quite, but
Maria: the other day,
Geoff: yeah. Um, so there's, we all got our moments around that
Maria: Yes. Yes. Yes. I think, I think we as humans, um, are, are, are actually quite awful to ourselves. You know, we need to be kinder. We just need to be kinder, you know? Y- y- nobody deliberately makes a bad decision. you agree? Like, if you knew it was a bad decision, would you make it?
Geoff: No
Maria: well, at the time of the decision, you think it's the right decision, and you make it. Three minutes later you might go, I shouldn't have thought... I shouldn't have decided that." But at the time of your decision, [00:51:00] rarely do people make the deliberate wrong decision. And so I think, you know, if people kind of realize that maybe we wouldn't beat ourselves up as much as we do. I shouldn't have done that.
Oh, I shouldn't have..." Okay. Well, you shouldn't have done it. What are you gonna do differently from here on, you know? What did you learn?
Geoff: Is that something you see often that something happens and then people hang onto it, like they beat themselves up around it?
Maria: Yes. Oh, we're wonderful at doing that. Humans are terrific at doing that. Regret, you know, regret. I should've. I shoulda, coulda, would've, you know, all that kind of stuff. We-
Geoff: have you got a, an example around regret? And it doesn't need to be a personal example, but it may be a client or something that where regret showed up
Maria: Oh God, there's so many. You know, usually it's women saying, "I should never have married him." You know? [00:52:00] "I should have picked better." Well, you didn't know at the time, you know? You didn't know. Um, "I shouldn't have taken that job." And well, again, you know, if you... If, if we could go back now with the hindsight, with the n- the, the, the, the, the, um, wisdom we have now... I mean, you think about it, Jeff. If you could go back to your younger self and bring all the ex- experience and knowledge you have now, and the wisdom, I'm sure you would've done things a little bit differently.
Geoff: mhm
Maria: I know I would've. And so we can't, but we can go forward with, with change, and how do we do it differently?
Geoff: Hmm. It's kind of the value of experience, isn't it, in some cases?
Maria: is. Yeah, it
Geoff: Mm-hmm.
Maria: is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think also it's never too late. I don't think it's ever too late. If we're still standing, still breathing, it's not too late. [00:53:00] Always room for change, something different. Especially now with all the research around neuro- uh, neuroscience and the, um, you know, the brain and so many things out there that, that teach us how to use the brain differently, how to do things differently.
You know, never too late. Brain hacking, anti-aging, all that kind of stuff. There's so much.
Geoff: So it sounds very hopeful
Maria: Hopeful?
Geoff: Yeah
Maria: Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. I'm always very hopeful, you know that. I'm such an optimist. It's never too late. That's... Anything's possible, I think, so.
Geoff: Perfect!
[00:00:00]
Geoff: So Maria, you've been a psychologist for a long time. So, a long time. So what do you notice about people now compared to when you first began?
Maria: I think what I have realized as time's gone on is that everybody's got a story. Everybody's got probably challenges that they've overcome, and people are essentially the same from, you know, 20, 25 years ago and at what they are now. So even with all the technology and all the information that people can get, at their very core, humans are humans
Geoff: Have you got a, a story that, or an experience that taught you that? Probably plenty
Maria: well, yeah, I was gonna say plenty and none that particularly come to mind. Um, e- e- except to say probably that, um, y- you know, I've, I've had a [00:01:00] private practice in the past. I've, I've recently reactivated that. I've worked in organizations. And I've worked in, uh, different kinds of organizations from healthcare to education to manufacturing, and every time I change industries, I get the same question. "Oh, wow, this is a really different industry, isn't it?" And I say, "But humans are humans wherever you go. The issues are the same." You know, there's... People kind of can't get along with each other or, um, they don't like their boss or they're overwhelmed or they're burnt out. Like, the issues don't really change, which is why I say that it, it doesn't matter how much we've, we've grown or, you know, technology has come into play. We are, are humans, uh, humans that need contact, human contact. We're social creatures. Um, and we're also very much creatures of habit too. So yeah, that's... I can't think of a particular story, but I think, you [00:02:00] know, um, if, if I think of one I'll bring it up.
Geoff: Yeah. I'm just curious, you said we've all got-- it all finishes up as stories. Is that paraphrasing it or did I
Maria: Oh, sorry. We all finish up as stories
Geoff: what you're hearing is consistent stories across things. So clearly you're listening out for stories
Maria: Yes. And, and patterns, you know, and, and ways of behaving. That, that, that's, that, that's... It's sort of the same across the board. What we have is, um, I think d- different, different, uh, types of psychological, uh, techniques appear. Uh, different systems of work, if you like. The way psychologists work and the sort of techniques they use.
New ones appear. Um, but at the end of the day, y- you're kinda dealing with the same problems. So it may be even a change in, in name. So maybe in the past the word anxiety didn't get used as much. Uh, [00:03:00] certainly, um, you know, d- diver- diversity and, and neurodiversity wasn't a thing. ADHD wasn't a thing, whereas now it really is. But the kinds of symptoms, the kinds of behaviors... I mean, some, some behaviors have definitely escalated and are more prevalent, but, you know, anxiety, uh, stress, overwhelm, kinda the same. They haven't changed all that much. So, um, yeah
Geoff: And are people telling the same stories? Is that what you're hearing?
Maria: Um, essentially, the, the situation might be different. So a, a, a story does come to mind. Um, one of my... Well, it was my first job actually out of uni. Um, and the place I worked was quite a well-known place. I'm not gonna mention names. But one of the managers there, um, would probably [00:04:00] not get away with his behavior these days, 'cause he was much a bully.
He was, he was a very, um, aggressive, the way he treated people. Um, so we still get that nowadays, except we've got laws in place to sort of mitigate that behavior and the impacts of it, and we have, you know, EAPs and lots of support for people. Um, but that, it, the scenarios can, can be the same in some instances.
You've still got someone who's kind of the bully and behaving, um, inappropriately towards someone else. Um, so that, that, it- Do you know, like, that's a story where it hasn't changed. It's just back then were no real laws. You know, people just tolerated it. You just tolerated his behavior. So
Geoff: So what do you think's changed in the last 20 years such that we don't tolerate it anymore?
Maria: Oh, I think there's a, a lot more awareness about what is appropriate behavior, what is good interpersonal communication, [00:05:00] interpersonal skills. And we have, um, we have laws to back it up. You know, like, we've created laws now. We, we've y- you know, there are laws where you can't be a bully in the workplace.
I mean, you can be, but if you get reported, and it could, you know, could, could end up in court. Um, whereas that was not there back then. That just wasn't there. You know, it was still this, um, attitude of y- you tolerate it or you leave. Whereas nowadays, there's a lot of, there's a lot of support available for people, and there's a lot of pathways where people can report that kind of behavior, which is a good thing, actually. Um, it means that, um, you know, managers, leaders, or business owners, or who- whoever the people in authority are, more of a, of a responsibility to kind of clean up their act. Y- y- you know? Like, that's ... I remember, um, years ago rolling out a bullying awareness [00:06:00] program, um, in a government department and, um, it was a very h- uh, high male-dominated, um, environment.
And, know, some of the guys would say, "W- what do you mean you can't say that anymore? You can't..." A- a- and, you know, y- it's not really appropriate that you continue saying it. You know, like, we're t- trying to teach you now that, that y- you gotta, you kinda gotta be nicer. You know? You gotta look at your own behavior, be more aware of what's the impact you're having on somebody else. Um, which I think that was lacking. Like, it was just, "That's who I am." Or you still hear it these days, actually. You know, "Oh, it's just him," or, "It's just her. That's just how she is." I still hear that this day. Um, but like I said, there, there's more support available for, for people that are, um, perhaps experiencing that inappropriate behavior towards them and, and there's certainly more pathways for, um, you know, doing something about that, reporting it.
Geoff: [00:07:00] Hmm. So when you sit down with somebody, what are the things you notice or are looking for? So let's say I come into the room, you're a psychologist, we're gonna meet about something. As a client, let's say I come in as a client. What, what are the things that you start to look for
Maria: Um,
Geoff: listen for?
Maria: always, I, I, I always, um, obviously have a completely impartial view and let you start talking. Like, you know, usually the question is, "Why are you here?" Um, sometimes you get, "I'm not sure." But, you know, you- something has, something has prompted you to come and seek help, and it's usually to do with, uh, wanting something to change, um, and, and quite possibly wanting you, you yourself want something to change in the way you feel.
So people don't go to therapy if they're feeling great. You go to therapy 'cause you're not feeling good. You're [00:08:00] either, you know, you're depressed, or you're angry, or you're sad, or you... But you might not have recognized exactly what is going on for you. You just know that you do not feel good. you know, the first thing I need to know is what's going on.
Like, why are you here? Um, and sometimes it might lead straight into, what do you want to be different? You know, what, what do you wanna be different, or what do you wanna change? Which is quite confronting sometimes for people if they're not feeling good, and especially if they've got a, like, you know, if there's someone else involved in the situation, and it can be, "I don't need to change anything.
They need to change."
Geoff: hmm
Maria: which is always an interesting one, and I usually let's say, "Well, they're not sitting in front of me, but you are. And so we could potentially change something in you so that you can perceive the situation differently and consider doing something differently that might actually change the whole scenario." [00:09:00] I mean, that's very simplified. You know, very... We're not gonna do all of that necessarily in the first session, but it's, it's kind of, um, you know, people, I think, n- n- wanting something to change. That, that, that's essentially why you go to see someone. You need something to
Geoff: Are they, do they often find it hard to articulate what they want to change then? Like, just can't put it into words or
Maria: Sometimes Yes, sometimes, sometimes. Uh, uh, because, um, I think sometimes humans find it very difficult to express the emotion or the feeling
Geoff: Mm-hmm.
Maria: And, um, I have a, a model that I use called four basic emotions. Sad, mad, glad, scared. those four basic emotions can pretty much sum up, um, you know, how a person might be feeling.
It's actually a really good, good model to use with, with anybody really. Adults, children. When people can't [00:10:00] explain what's happening for them and you say, "Well, which of these, if you had to choose, which of these emotions do you think is the kind of m- major emotion for you? Is it sad? Is it mad or angry? Is it, um, fear or, or scared? Uh, and it's not gonna be glad, 'cause you're sitting here telling me you're not feeling good." And so, you know, being able to at least, um, identify one of those starts to give the person bit more control over it. And so then we can move on and say, "Well, it's okay to feel that. Like, you're not bad for feeling it, and you don't have to let it..." Um, well, I use really simple language and I say, "You don't need to be freaked out by your emotion." It's, it's identifying it is also, like, owning it. Like, we can get to... And when people say, "You know, you gotta own it," what that means is y- you've g- you've just gotta m- accept [00:11:00] that that's how you're feeling. It doesn't mean you have to do anything about it immediately. So if you've been feeling... Well, I've got, I've got a, um, an e- an example actually where, um... And this is, I've got one person in m- I'm thinking about. But this happens, I've seen it over the years with, with women that are unhappy perhaps in the home life because they end up doing everything or... And so they get very frustrated and angry, but they hold the anger in. And then they, it comes out as, you know, emotional or teary or, um... And, and you know, I can say to them, "Look, if you're being really honest with yourself, you think you might be frustrated?" they go, "Yes, yes. You know, I do everything." I go, "Okay. So it's, it's okay to be frustrated, ' cause you don't want it to be like that.
So th- let's have a look at that and how maybe, um, you might be able to change something really minor that could have an [00:12:00] impact. So, you know, could you take yourself off and do something nice for yourself for one hour on the weekend?" "Oh, well, I, I guess. You know, uh, you know. Y- you think the housework could kind of just wait for an hour or maybe y-..."
Do you know what I mean? Like, just little things that perhaps people kind of get into this pattern of, "Oh, no, you know, Saturday mornings is cleaning morning and nothing can change that." And, and you go, "Mm, actually it can." I- if you wanted to, you don't have, it's, uh, it sounds very simple. It's not simple when you're in it, but it, there are, I, I think there's solutions to everything. it's not the solution you want, but it is a solution. So,
Geoff: Mm-hmm.
Maria: it's
Geoff: So what, what are you thinking of or feeling when you're talking to someone about this?
Maria: Ah, I love this question. Do you know what? Through my whole career as a psychologist, [00:13:00] m- I can always... Well, usually I should say, almost always, I can see the potential in people before they can see it. 'Cause I always think we've got much more potential than we allow ourselves to see or feel. And so it used to frustrate me, I'd think, "If they just did that," you know? it's not... It doesn't frustrate me anymore, but I, it, it, yeah, I, I can see the potential of change, for change in people when they either, you know, can't see it yet, or they don't wanna see it, or they're too frightened to change it, or whatever the reason is. So then my job is to help them get to that, that version of themselves somehow.
Geoff: Mm-hmm. And is that a, a joyful experience for you? It sounds like it is.
Maria: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. I, I, I [00:14:00] think there's, uh, you know, it's a wonderful feeling having someone come in feeling terrible and negative or crying or angry or whatever, and having them leave with a smile on their face or saying, know, that was really good." And, uh, uh, sometimes I, I've done a lot of EAP, like for corporates, and sometimes people are sort of, know, told they have to see the psychologist.
And of the time when they, at the end they go, "Oh, that wasn't so bad." I go, "It wasn't, was it?" You know? So that's always nice. I, I, I do. I mean, I, I, I, I love what I do and I love people and, um, I always have. So it is a joy. Yeah
Geoff: Yeah, no, I can hear it in your voice. It sounds like you get a thrill from it. You're trying to help people. Hmm
Maria: there is, there is an ex- um, a, a, a, a, how do I put this? Like a, an acceptance also some people, th- they just don't wanna change. So even though they've [00:15:00] had a session, it's been a good session, they, they really are re- reluctant to keep going. And so, you know, first I used to kind of feel a bit unhappy, if you like, about that.
But now I think, well, they're all, everyone's on their path. When they're ready, you know, they'll come back or they'll go to someone else, whatever. I don- I don't mind. Whatever. Just, I just want people to, you know, kind of be happier, find solutions, um, reach their potential
Maria: Yeah
Geoff: Have you ever had a situation where you think you've made it worse?
Maria: Um, not that I can think of, and not that anyone's told me, so I don't think so. I mean, the only, um... I do recall one, um, one gentleman I saw, and we worked for quite a while. He saw me quite, quite a few times and, um, [00:16:00] and one day he, he called me and he said, "I couldn't wait until our next session." He said, " I've realized something."
And I said, "O- okay." He said, "I don't love my wife anymore." And I thought, "Oh, God, that's, that's a big realization." But he said, "No, it's really good because I think it's been sitting there." He goes, "I've even talked to her about it, and she kind of feels the same way." So it all worked out in the end. But, you know, I know that could have gone either way, right? So, but he, yeah, he, he got happy and re- you know, that was his realization, and, she was okay with it, and I think they both went on and remarried and had more kids and all good in the end.
Geoff: Oh good.
Maria: so
Geoff: So
Maria: don't know if anybody, you know, got worse. I hope not
Geoff: So are often your conversations like that where you don't know which way they're going to go?
Maria: Sorry, d- does it happen?
Geoff: So [00:17:00] your conversations are often like, are your conversations like that where you kind of don't know which way it's gonna go? Somebody says something and you're like, "Oh, hang on
Maria: Usually, it, it, those kinds of realizations, um, know, that big, o- often will happen in between sessions, 'cause people go away and reflect or, you know, we've done some... I, I like to call myself an active psychologist, so, so, I don't just do conversational therapy. It's, um, some techniques I use actually, um, you know, get to the core of the issue and help people, um, with visualization or, um, sort of more heartfelt type therapy.
Um, you know, uh, uh, tapping or energy psychology type therapy. So, um, we don't just sit and talk. Uh, sometimes, sometimes that's necessary. Um, so once people have [00:18:00] had quite a transformational session, it's when they go away and then maybe some, you know, reflection and, and, um, realizations might, might come through, not necessarily in the session.
Sometimes it's in the session. It really just depends where people are at and they're, what they're wanting, and how desperate they are really
Geoff: Hmm. So am I free?
Maria: too,
Geoff: Sorry
Maria: can I, can I just add this? I mean, sometimes people come in to see me, not necessarily 'cause they've got a deep negative issue. they may want to, uh, enhance an area of their life or get better at something. Like, like relationships perhaps. Like, they know that things could be better, they're just not quite sure how. Um, or, you know, with their children. Like, I, I know I'm a good mother or a father, but I know I could do better, I just can't quite work out [00:19:00] how.
Or, you know, my, my 16-year-old doesn't say much to me, which is what most 16-year-olds do, but how can, how can I entice them to, you know, be more communicative or... So it, it, it doesn't have to always be I've got a, a, a big problem or, you know, something
negative. It can be looking for a bit of coaching around improving something, enhancing something,
Geoff: Mm-hmm.
Maria: as well.
Geoff: Yeah, I just want to go back to what you kind of said about how you approach it, that it sounded like in the beginning you were a lot about the words, but now you're looking more at energy. Is that accurate or?
Maria: I do work with energy quite a bit because I think we are energetic beings. Um, we all have a vibe. So even if people go, "Ah, this energy stuff." But we all have a vibe. You know, we've all walked into a room and got a bit of a vibe. Uh, what's going on in here? Something... There's a bit of I could touch, I could cut the tension [00:20:00] with a knife type thing.
Geoff: Mhm
Maria: that's energy. That's vibe, yeah?
Geoff: Ja
Maria: meet someone, you go, "I don't know, I just got a bad feeling from them." So we- we're all capable of doing that. It's whether we pay attention to it or not. And so, um, yeah, I, I do work with, with, with energy and, and vibe, if you like, um, with, with clients
Geoff: Hmm. So h-how do you pay attention to it? What are you paying attention to?
Maria: Well, you're probably using... Not probably, I know you, I know I am. You use your intuition, you use your, um, you know, your gut feel, but it's backed up with years of experience
Geoff: Mm-hmm.
Maria: well. and you trust yourself. You, you, you have to trust yourself, not go, "Oh, I don't know about that. Does that? No, maybe, no, no.
I've, I'm b- I'm probably being silly." You know? You, you don't... I don't do that. I, I know when my, my intuitive self comes forth with some thought or impression, I'll trust [00:21:00] it
Geoff: So does that mean you'll say it or you'll explore it, or what do you do with it?
Maria: absolutely depends on the situation. Absolutely depends. Um, there have been a couple of instances where, um, you know, a client's sitting in front of me telling me something, and I've got a very strong gut feeling that this is not entirely true. So I'm, I'm not going to say to them, "I think you're a liar." Um, we explore what they're saying and h- what's going on for them and, um, you know, kinda see what happens and j- j- just gently guide them towards more truthful. Um, I don't think you can, you know, come straight out and say, "You're lying, 'cause my gut tells me you're lying." No, that doesn't... No.
Geoff: No, no.
Maria: No.
Geoff: I definitely didn't mean it in that way. It was more like, "Oh, how does Maria do this? Like, what is she looking for? What..." And even down to, I know when I've done fasting, it's kind of like this experience around [00:22:00] what is hunger? And it's like, well, what, what we were told was that hunger's not actually in your stomach, it's more likely to be in your lips.
So wetting your lips and having a drink can actually relieve more hunger. So this,
Maria: hmm
Geoff: is your intuition? Where does the intuition sit for you? Where do you get the feeling?
Maria: I get the feeling in my body,
Geoff: Mhm.
Maria: head.
Geoff: oh yeah?
Maria: Body.
Geoff: yeah
Maria: yep. Um, if you kinda know about, you know, energy centers in the body, um, in the, in the, um, solar plexus is, is where you probably feel it. Um, sometimes now because I've been working that way for such a long time, I don't even think about where it sits necessarily, ' cause
Geoff: yeah okay
Maria: feeling.
Geoff: hmm
Maria: It's just a... You just know. It's like a knowing. Y- you know, like, how, how can I explain it? Like, you just know, and if you had to try and explain how you know, [00:23:00] you can't explain it. Trying to think of an example, but I'm sure that's happened to you, Jeff, where you just know something. Not,
Geoff: Absolutely
Maria: type thing, just a knowing. You just know. Like, you know, you just know these, um, conversations are good. Like, you just know that it's gonna work. I mean, you come into this conversation going, "Oh, God, I hope Maria speaks okay." Um, I mean, we know each other of course, but you just kind of know that it's gonna go okay.
Like, you, you, like you said, you don't necessarily have a structured script, but you just trust that it's gonna go in the direction that it needs to go. That's a knowing. So if I said to you, "How do you know that?" And you go, "I don't know, I just do." You know?
Geoff: Yeah, I laugh because it's kind of like at times I feel like, "Oh, wow, isn't this going great?" And at times it's like, "Oh my God, we're going off course somewhere." And it's kind of like,
Maria: to go [00:24:00] though?
Geoff: well, it actually is come back to the knowing. It's like, how do I know this is on course or off course? Well, I, no, I don't. I just have a sense of it.
And it's like, "Oh, that sounds interesting. Let's go over there and explore that."
Maria: mhm, mhm,
Geoff: and the intuition one's a curious one because often we'll put words around things and think that's knowing. But intuition may be knowing without the words, which is different.
Maria: Mm-hmm. And intuition, I think, I think we all have intuition. Some of us have just developed it more than others. So, you know, you hear people saying, "Oh, wish I could be more, uh, you know, A- and you say, well, you, you... There's things you have to do in order to be more intuitive. A- and one is you gotta start trusting yourself.
Like, you, you get a thought, you trust that thought. Or if you have any doubt, like sometimes, uh, people can go, "Oh, I [00:25:00] think I should do that. yeah, I should do it. Well, I think." And you go, "That's not intuition." 'Cause when it's true intuition, there's no I think.
Geoff: Yeah.
Maria: Mm. You just know
Geoff: Okay
Maria: you just know to do it.
And so, y- but you can develop that. Like, I know I have always had a bit of intuition, but I did do a bit of study around, um, you know, developing my intuition, getting to know myself more, being self-aware, um, and, and kind of, you know, metaphysics, if you like. Like, how d- how does it all happen? And I, I, out of all that, I honestly believe that the biggest thing that came out of it was trusting myself and trusting the, the, the feeling and the, the knowing.
Um, and, and kind of, as they say, getting out of my own way, not questioning it. Not questioning it, you know? Um, yeah. That's-
Geoff: how do you apply that in your own life?
Maria: Oh, all the time. [00:26:00] All the time. Um, I've, I've... I don't even think about it now, 'cause I, I really do run on intuition a lot. Like I meditate and I, you know, that, that kind of coming back to center type thing and calming the body. But, uh, uh, it's always there. It's always there. I, I, I don't need to think about doing it 'cause it's there.
I mean, I can even do it... Well, you and I have had this conversation with food. get a feeling about it, I go, "I can't eat that." And then if I eat it, it doesn't work. I knew, you know? It's, it's, um, you just develop this kind of highly intuitive approach, and you really know yourself and trust yourself.
I think that's the core of it really
Geoff: So what does trusting yourself feel like? Like, I presume it's a feeling or is it located
Maria: Uh,
Geoff: somewhere?
Maria: It's, it's... Well, it's, uh, uh, trusting yourself is not doubting yourself. It's, it's kind of the [00:27:00] opposite. So not second-guessing yourself. Um, that doesn't mean that you follow every intuitive feel or thought. Um, but y- you don't, you don't get in your own way. I know I, I say that a lot, but it, it, it, it is, um... Trusting yourself is, is not second-guessing. But until you develop that trust, that's what you'll do. You'll second-guess yourself. Oh, maybe I should take that job, or maybe not. May- well, should I? I don't know. Should... I, I, I have a, um, a little kind of, um, process that I've done with people who, who get into that space of do I, don't I?
And I think, well, if you've got two choices, okay, you've got two choices. I get people to stand, know, in one position and feel into what it feels like to take one of those choices, then take a step to the left or the right and completely step into the other choice, and what does it feel like if you took that [00:28:00] choice?
Geoff: Mm-hmm.
Maria: And often, just that process itself very quickly gets people to go, "Oh, yeah, I know which one I'm gonna do." And, and, and the follow-up then is, and if it doesn't work, you've actually got the other option to fall back on. So it doesn't kind of matter. D- do you know what I mean? Like, that's also trusting yourself, that I'll go with this one because it felt like the right one at this particular time, and if it doesn't work, then maybe I can revisit the other one.
I mean, that's not always... Like, if we're talking, say, a job, for example, um, it might be that the other job's not available anymore. But if your gut tells you that the choice you've made is the choice you should make, it'll probably work, 'cause you're trusting your gut. You're trusting yourself. Does that make sense?
Geoff: Yeah, it does. Yeah.
Maria: So-
Geoff: it's just, um, hearing someone explain it because it's often not [00:29:00] got words around it. It's just like I know that's the answer and I'm going over here, and what else is there? Um-
Maria: know, you're challenging me by, by getting me to explain this 'cause you don't
Geoff: Yeah
Maria: it, you just do it.
Geoff: Well, that's the tricky part about it, isn't it? It's kind of what this whole conversation about experience is. Because we all go, "Oh yeah, I've got experience." But what does your experience actually look like? What does it mean? How do you use it? And it's kind of like, oh, I use my intuition. So what does that look like?
How do we use it? Have there been situations where it hasn't worked for you?
Maria: Mm, mm. And, and you know, like I said before, it's intuition with experience.
Geoff: Hmm. Which is a double,
Maria: much...
Geoff: isn't it?
Maria: Yes, yes, yes. And, um, it's just gone. I've had something in my head then. Um, oh, sorry. It might come back to me
Geoff: That's okay. Um, maybe you weren't meant, meant to say [00:30:00] it.
Maria: Yeah, there you go. There you go. Oh, I know what I was gonna say. I knew it'd come back. Um, I know like, I'm sure for you, 'cause we've had these conversations in the past, I had to get over imposter syndrome. You know, we, we've... I think most people have to get over that at some point in their life, and it still rears its head every now and again, but you quickly go, " Nah, not going there.
Don't need to anymore." But it, it's just, I think, again, it's a bit of a human, um, you know, human condition, if you like. That you start to then trust yourself and say, "Well, I, I do have the experience and I, you know, I can do it. Of course I can. Why am I doubting myself?" And then the trust kicks in, and the confidence kicks in, and you stop comparing yourself to other people, and you follow your path.
Geoff: Hmm.
Maria: That sound lovely? So
Geoff: Yeah.
Maria: simple.
Geoff: As if there is the path and I'm gonna [00:31:00] follow that one,
Maria: Yeah,
Geoff: and maybe there is one. Um, so when you say you're relying on your experience, is that kind of, "I've been there before"? Is that your version of experience? Or, "I've done that before," or, "I know how to handle it," or
Maria: A little bit of all of them, but I don't really think of experience as I've done that before. It's kind of the wisdom you've collected from your, all your, you know, past, if you like, that can be, um, transmuted and transferred, if you like. You know, like transferable skills. And so you don't have to have gone through something, specifically to be able to recognize what it is or know how to handle it. That, I think, is experience to me, that you, yeah, you don't... Uh, do you know, years and years and years ago, when my lovely Italian mother was having an issue with me and, um, you know, thought that I should be her psychologist, to which I said, [00:32:00] "Absolutely not, because I'm the problem, Mom. I can't be your psychologist as well."
Um, and she, she... I said to her, "I can find you a psychologist and a, and an Italian-speaking psychologist." She goes, "Oh, no, no, no, no. How can she understand what I'm going through if she's never been through it?" And I thought, "Wow, that's really interesting, because I've never been through mothering me, and yet you want me to be your psychologist , you know?"
So as a psychologist, it got me thinking. I certainly, and, and no psychologist, has experienced every single issue that a client brings in. your, your, your experience, your knowledge, um, and h- hopefully your, your, you know, like, your intuition helps you help that person because of the, like, the transferable skills or your, your experience, et cetera. So
Geoff: Is it harder to trust yourself in a new situation?
Maria: N- not if you've developed [00:33:00] trust. At least for me. I don't go into any situation thinking, "Oh my God, what am I gonna do?" I trust that I'll know what to do.
Geoff: yeah
Maria: also trust, but I'll also trust if I feel that I can't... That's not a situation for me. Like, that's not, you know... Uh, there are, there have been jobs that have come my way, um, where I'll say, "No, I'm not taking that on," 'cause I know I don't have the skills or the appropriate, you know, quals for that.
So no. That's trusting myself as well, rather than kind gung ho, "Oh, yeah, yeah, I'll just say yes to everything." That's, that's a level of trust as well.
Geoff: Yeah. Yeah, I think there's a
Maria: it's,
Geoff: element of being present to yourself, isn't there?
Maria: Absolutely. Yeah.
Geoff: You know, rather than out there. It's like you gotta be checking in. So is it much more internal for yourself? So I kinda get that you're listening, [00:34:00] noticing the person in front of you, but you're also checking in with yourself constantly.
So is that what's going on?
Maria: Yes, yes, yes. Constantly. Constantly. And I, and I, and I know you know this, I, I do a lot of, like, group work and go into corporations and organizations to help with, um, you know, HR issues or, um, you know, people, any people issues, or critical incident debriefing or if there's been a, you know, a critical incident, a, a traumatic event.
Um, and, uh, that, that to me also my, my, my trust and my intuition kicks in so that I know how I'm going to... Not necessarily what I'm going to do, but I trust that I'll know what to do when, when I'm there. And, and of course I do every single time, but that's also where the experience comes in as well.
Geoff: Mm-hmm.
Maria: You, you, you lump, sorry, you combine the trust and the experience and you go, "Of course I can, I can handle that.
Whatever needs to be done, it'll be okay. [00:35:00] be able to support these people in this way."
Geoff: Hmm.
Maria: Mm.
Geoff: Yeah, one of the things I wanted to ask you, it's almost like the, I don't know what relationship it has to experience, but where does trauma fit into experience? And can one incident change your whole future?
Maria: Oh, I, I believe it can. I think if, you know, w- many traumatic events can... Or s- many people have been, um, deeply affected by a traumatic event that's changed the traject- tra- trajectory of their life. Of course. Of course it can. Um, and, and then it... You know, I, I always like, um, to listen to people's inspiring stories, you know, out of this negative, something positive came out of it. Um, so it's, it's, you know, I feel blessed. I've, I've not been through a really terrible, terrible traumatic anything. I mean, you know, been through divorce and, you know, death of a parent, [00:36:00] but nothing e- I mean, they can be traumatic, of course, of course. Um, but I was, I was, um, listening to a podcast this morning where they were talking about the, um, that, uh, female, the first female, um, millionaire in, in America, and she was a, a, a slave, Black girl when she was 14 or even before that, you know, abused sexually, physically. Um, and, um, she went on to d- to, to, me, to discover a, a, um, a hair product for, you know, Black women for their hair, and I can't remember her name, and I can't remember her product's name, but it is still, today you can still buy it. And it was because she lost all her hair. Again, I can't remember exactly why, if it was through the trauma, the traumatic, you know, incredibly traumatic life she'd had, where her, all her hair fell out, or if someone had actually shaved her head.
I, I don't remember. [00:37:00] But, um, she had to find a way to kind of, you know, regrow her hair, and it led her to something so great. And of course, then she, um, used her influence, her status to get, um... to influence reform for slaves America back then. So, you know, stories like that, um... And that, that's a big one, but there's lots of smaller stories, if you like, or stories that don't quite hit the news or where people have done something extraordinary out of the traumatic event that's happened in their life. Um, so it can go sort of either way, can't it? Some people don't make it out well from a traumatic experience. Um, and I think it, you know, depends on the support you've got around you, uh, the people that are around you. Um, don't know. Just, yeah. So yes, trauma can definitely, um, [00:38:00] change your life.
Geoff: And, and I, I think it's a curious one of some people, or let's say two people experience the same thing. One person gets traumatized from it, the other doesn't.
Maria: Mm-hmm.
Geoff: have you come across that or?
Maria: Oh, yes, yes. And, and look, there, there's actual e- um, evidence and research around why that happens, and it... There's a few factors that, um, can determine that. Um, prior kind of traumatic events and how you've... how things have, have, have evolved from them, the type of support you're getting, your family situation, your social connections, um, your personality. Um, there's all sorts of things that can influence how somebody, um, is impacted by trauma. So, and there's a lot of... Nowadays, there's a lot more understanding and, um, research around how trauma itself sits in our body as a physical reaction- Mm-hmm ... rather [00:39:00] than just sitting in our brain as a memory, or, or as a recall of the...
And so yeah, there's a, a- amazing somatic clinicians around that help people re- remove the trauma from their body in a physical way. Um, and then the person can, can start to, um, you know, heal the, the traumatic memories as well. So things have really changed in the trauma space, very much so.
Geoff: Hmm.
Maria: And I
Geoff: about in the intuition space? Does that apply for intuition as well? Like, it's kind of the reverse. We're trying to remove the trauma in the body, but we can enhance the intuition in the body in the same way?
Maria: Oh, yes. Yes. As I said before, I think, I think, um, anyone can, can learn to be more intuitive. I think it's a skill that you can, you can learn. Uh, it's, it's, um, yeah, it's, it's, it, it's a skill just like [00:40:00] more assertive or more, um, um, like non- non-reactive. You know humans, something happens and you go, "Oh my God, blah."
You know? So, so learning to, like, count to 10 and take ... Just, just reflect before you speak. They're, they're all skills that you can learn. So intuition is, is the same. You learn to trust your gut feeling. You learn to trust yourself. I know we keep coming back to this word trust, but it really is about that. and, and, and sometimes, I think sometimes, it's ... it can be challenging recognize something and trust your feeling about it, 'cause it actually might be telling you that whatever is going on is not good, and you might need to change it. Like, you know, if you're battling at work and you're always stressed and what- and your gut's telling you this is not the job for you, but it's a really high-paying job, [00:41:00] and it gives you lots of benefits, and it's really Do, do you know what I mean? But at, at the core, if you're really, really honest with yourself, know you probably shouldn't be there because it's not really, really working for you. But then you're trying to balance, you know, the, the, the, the benefits versus the feeling. uh, it, that, that then becomes a choice, doesn't it?
It becomes a And it, it's not always simple though. It's not always simple. If you are, um, supporting a family, the kids are at private schools, you, you know, you got a mortgage, you It's not that easy to say, "I hate my job. I'm gonna go get something that I really love and, and, but it's gonna pay half the amount."
Mm. Not that easy. So you gotta work out then how am I going to what I'm doing and how I'm feeling for a few more years, do it well. And so then that's a different, different pathway. You, you gotta learn to, um [00:42:00] You gotta find the good in that situation that not making you feel good. But I think you can. You have to in a sense.
Geoff: So how do you... So it sounds like you're really comfortable with intuition. How do you... Well, if you actually had to talk to your clients about intuition, where do you think they would be? Are they on the same page or-
Maria: I have, I have, I have talked to some of them about it
Geoff: Yeah
Maria: it's so strong that I say, "Look, I just wanna put something on the table." I can gauge w- how their reaction is. But usually because it really is spot on, th- they,
they like it. Like, they like it, you know? Um, I've, I've found myself saying, "I need to ask you something that might be a little bit, mm, left of center, a little bit confronting, but I, I, I just feel that I need to ask you.
Is that okay?" And they go, "Yes." And then I ask the question, and it is absolutely spot on. They go, "Hmm, that's a really [00:43:00] good question. You know, that's really getting to the core." You're really stuck on this intuition thing, hey, Jeff.
Geoff: Well, I haven't come across it in my other conversations, and I just think it's one of those ones that, like, I think I'm intuitive around a lot of things I do. Like you said it before, there's lots of things I know, I don't know how I know them. I just go, "Oh, that's the right answer. Go that way." I can- And it's not like-- It's a bit like, um, when you collapse a lot of information into, "Oh, that's the answer."
There- So there's the cognitive part of that. I get that. So it's trying to just hear some other people explain it or talk about it and how they use it. I'm kind of curious about it because I think that sheds a light on how I operate a lot of the time, and I don't necessarily have words for it. It's just like, "Oh, that's the right answer," or, "I should talk to Maria.
That'll be a good conversation." And then I've done
Maria: and you've just reminded me, you know, there has [00:44:00] been, there has been research done, I can't quote it, but I do remember it. They interviewed the CEOs of, um, you know, Fortune 500 companies, and they found that most of them make their decisions based on a gut feeling and then back it up with facts and, and, and, um, uh, you know, numbers and things. So people might not think they're using intuition- But they are.
Geoff: Mm-hmm. That, that's what I think she wants to talk about a lot
Maria: Yes, yes, yes. A- a- and I've been saying it's intuition backed up with experience,
Geoff: Mm-hmm.
Maria: and it's the same kind of thing. Like, the, the CEOs are making intuitive decisions and then backing it up with fact and numbers
Geoff: Yeah. Daniel Kahneman won his Nobel Prize basically for coming up with that. You know, that basically the brain research showed that [00:45:00] that's the way we do things. It's not the other way around. So that's why it's
Maria: no
Geoff: interesting to hear it. And intuition's different to... Um, often people talk about emotion, but then what's-- well, what do you see as the overlap or difference there?
So intuition is a feeling, intuition is an emotion, intuition
Maria: intuition,
Geoff: Oh, we stuck these drawers here.
Maria: it. Well, intuition is a knowing.
Geoff: Mm-hmm
Maria: it as a thought or as a feeling. You can't see me pointing to my gut, but it's, you know, it's, it's just a knowing. Um, whereas feeling a- and emotions different.
So, so it's funny 'cause I just saw a, a little thing about the difference between emotions and feelings this morning, which I thought was quite, quite good and quite interesting. And, and what it said was, "An emotion is the reaction you have to something." So, um,
Geoff: [00:46:00] Mhm.
Maria: say I s- I broke out into swear words right now. Your, your emotion, you might have this emotional reaction of, um, surprise and maybe even disappointment 'cause you're gonna have to bleep half the, uh, you know, this conversation out,
Geoff: wait, wait
Maria: I wanna... That's right. And then the, the feeling is, the feeling is what you continue to feel after we're finished. So
Geoff: Mhm
Maria: feeling might then be, " Wow, I, I don't know if I like Maria the way I used to like her before. I had no idea she had that in her." You know, like so you, you... The, the, the feeling stays even when the reaction has happened, which is the emotion. So you, yeah. So, and it, it actually, it's making me think of another, another interesting thing that happens with people. We can either hang on to feeling [00:47:00] or we can choose to let it go, we don't forget the memory. We just can change the feeling attached to the memory. Does that make sense? So
Geoff: Yes
Maria: example. Okay, I'll give you an example, a personal example. So, uh, you know, I've been through a divorce and, uh, um, after like a number of years and lots of therapy, I could the, the divorce and, you know, going through the separation and everything, um, as I still can now of course, but it doesn't have the emotional triggers associated with it that it used to have. And so now when I think about it, it's like I'm remembering a movie
Geoff: Mhm
Maria: that I watched. That, that's how I like to explain it. So you can remove the trigger or the emotion attached to a memory so that the memory doesn't trigger that emo- emotion.
Geoff: Yep. [00:48:00] Yep. Yep. So
Maria: you can think of something yourself, I'm sure, in the past.
Geoff: I've got plenty of examples. I got a, I got a notebook full of them. But that's also one practice to write them down and they just don't hang around as much in the same way.
Maria: Mm-hmm
Geoff: So after all these years of working with people as a psychologist, how has this shaped how you see people today?
Maria: So I think something that, um, I've always had but it's been solidified is the, the power and the courage of the human spirit. That's, that's something I see all the time. You know, everybody's got their own things they're going through, challenges, whatever, but we keep going. people keep going. Like, they, they actually cope very well. surprised at the [00:49:00] number of people that don't have a psychologist, really. But no, I think the human spirit is incredible. Uh, it's, it's incredible. more courageous than, than, you know... Most people are more courageous than they give themselves credit for.
Geoff: Hmm. And is that something you've taken on in your own life deliberately or unconsciously?
Maria: For myself, you mean?
Geoff: Yeah
Maria: Uh Probably when you, you know, when you look back over your life and think about things you've been through and things that you've done, decisions you've made, choices you've made, and you can, you can look at those things and go, "Wow, I don't think I really knew what I was doing then, but I did it anyway. You know? I think that was pretty good." Um, but I, I think we also tend to forget and we, we just kind of discount it as, "Oh, you know, that was just what I did." Until you maybe [00:50:00] give yourself some time and go, "Hang on a minute, that was pretty bloody courageous actually." You know?
Geoff: Mm-hmm.
Maria: yeah.
Geoff: Yeah, I remember when I went overseas, it was just like I didn't think anything of it. Whereas now I go, "Oh, I'm not sure whether I wanna do that."
Maria: Yes. Yes, yes,
Geoff: Not quite, but
Maria: the other day,
Geoff: yeah. Um, so there's, we all got our moments around that
Maria: Yes. Yes. Yes. I think, I think we as humans, um, are, are, are actually quite awful to ourselves. You know, we need to be kinder. We just need to be kinder, you know? Y- y- nobody deliberately makes a bad decision. you agree? Like, if you knew it was a bad decision, would you make it?
Geoff: No
Maria: well, at the time of the decision, you think it's the right decision, and you make it. Three minutes later you might go, I shouldn't have thought... I shouldn't have decided that." But at the time of your decision, [00:51:00] rarely do people make the deliberate wrong decision. And so I think, you know, if people kind of realize that maybe we wouldn't beat ourselves up as much as we do. I shouldn't have done that.
Oh, I shouldn't have..." Okay. Well, you shouldn't have done it. What are you gonna do differently from here on, you know? What did you learn?
Geoff: Is that something you see often that something happens and then people hang onto it, like they beat themselves up around it?
Maria: Yes. Oh, we're wonderful at doing that. Humans are terrific at doing that. Regret, you know, regret. I should've. I shoulda, coulda, would've, you know, all that kind of stuff. We-
Geoff: have you got a, an example around regret? And it doesn't need to be a personal example, but it may be a client or something that where regret showed up
Maria: Oh God, there's so many. You know, usually it's women saying, "I should never have married him." You know? [00:52:00] "I should have picked better." Well, you didn't know at the time, you know? You didn't know. Um, "I shouldn't have taken that job." And well, again, you know, if you... If, if we could go back now with the hindsight, with the n- the, the, the, the, the, um, wisdom we have now... I mean, you think about it, Jeff. If you could go back to your younger self and bring all the ex- experience and knowledge you have now, and the wisdom, I'm sure you would've done things a little bit differently.
Geoff: mhm
Maria: I know I would've. And so we can't, but we can go forward with, with change, and how do we do it differently?
Geoff: Hmm. It's kind of the value of experience, isn't it, in some cases?
Maria: is. Yeah, it
Geoff: Mm-hmm.
Maria: is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I think also it's never too late. I don't think it's ever too late. If we're still standing, still breathing, it's not too late. [00:53:00] Always room for change, something different. Especially now with all the research around neuro- uh, neuroscience and the, um, you know, the brain and so many things out there that, that teach us how to use the brain differently, how to do things differently.
You know, never too late. Brain hacking, anti-aging, all that kind of stuff. There's so much.
Geoff: So it sounds very hopeful
Maria: Hopeful?
Geoff: Yeah
Maria: Yeah. Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. I'm always very hopeful, you know that. I'm such an optimist. It's never too late. That's... Anything's possible, I think, so.
Geoff: Perfect!
