WEBVTT
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Good evening, everyone.
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This is Dr.
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Estee Hess.
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And I'm Dr.
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Anne Kirsch.
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And we are once again doing our wonderful podcast on and off the spectrum.
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We have had a return guest, Rabbi Israel Marnath, who is a rabbi in Montreal, Canada.
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And thank you again for joining from the East Coast, where it is quite a bit later than we are enjoying this hour of Twilight.
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But we specifically invited the rabbi back because we've heard from so many of our viewership about how important the topic of forgiveness is.
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The exercises that you suggested in your workbook are wonderful.
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But people have brought to the forefront some pretty difficult subjects.
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For example, uh my specialty, both of our specialties actually, are children and families having to do with developmental delays.
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And I have uh one woman approached me and she said, Well, how am I supposed to forgive God?
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I have multiple children on the spectrum.
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I have children who are not verbal, I have children who will forever and never be able to be launched.
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I will have to probably place them in some kind of facility eventually.
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And I'm looking at this, and they are just babies, but I know my future.
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And how am I supposed to forgive?
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And so this is such a um an expansion of the topic of forgiveness that I thought we would present it to you to talk about not that it's ever necessarily easy to forgive, but particularly when the circumstances look and feel very dire and a chronic illness of some kind, whether for yourself or someone you love, how do you approach this topic of forgiveness?
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And I also want to add that along with this kind of forgiveness, there are other feelings.
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There's anger, there's um fury at God, at whatever the universe brings to you.
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There is um why me?
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There is what did I do to cause this?
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Mothers say this a lot.
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Did I do something during my pregnancy?
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Taking responsibility.
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Is there something that is in my genetics?
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Because my husband doesn't have any of this on his on his side of the family that we know of.
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But on my side, there are all kinds of things.
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So it gets very complicated and it gets for a lot of people, it gets very interior.
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So we promised you a hot topic, and uh, but we also know on the eve of for those who do acknowledge that the new year is fast approaching, this is the time where we do some emotional heavy lifting overall.
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And uh I thought this was a very good topic to help launch that experience.
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Well, thank you for having me back.
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I'm honored to be back here.
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Please.
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First of all, I want to really extend my heartfelt connection and love towards those people who are asking this question.
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It's not an easy question, it's a very difficult question.
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It's a question that needs to be held, it needs to be coddled, and I'm gonna try my best to slowly unpack it, but I don't know if we'll be able to fully unpack it tonight.
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And I think that having this opportunity, even having this conversation, is so powerful.
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The first thing that comes to mind when you ask the question and and your series of questions, is often when we hear the word forgiveness, we usually imagine that somebody did something wrong.
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Somebody betrayed me, someone hurt me, someone owes me an apology.
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But there's another kind of pain.
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What happens when nobody did anything wrong?
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When a child is born with a profound disability?
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What happens when a diagnosis enters a family and never leaves?
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What happens when parents spend years and and sometimes decades navigating hospitals and therapies and appointments and advocacy and exhaustion and fear and financial pressure?
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Like who who exactly are they supposed to forgive?
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And this is a a question that I'm sitting with it.
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And I think I think sometimes forgiveness is not about forgiving a person.
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Sometimes forgiveness is about releasing an argument with reality.
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So the first thing I would say is that the parent is not forgiving the child.
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The child has done absolutely nothing wrong.
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And a parent can can love their child ferociously, completely, and still carry enormous grief.
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And those two things are not contradictions.
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You can adore the child sitting in front of you and still grieve the future that you once imagined.
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You can feel you can feel enormous gratitude for this beautiful soul that you've been entrusted with, and say that this is not the life that I thought I was gonna have.
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And that doesn't make you a bad parent.
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It makes you human.
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And so this forgiveness work is not forgiving your child.
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Maybe and I'm just broadcasting live here, I haven't really processed it fully, but it may be forgiving life, it may be even forgiving God, if we can talk about this on a more uh spiritual level.
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It may be forgiving a spouse who sometimes responds differently than you do, or forgiving relatives who disappeared because they didn't know what to say.
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And maybe the hardest forgiveness of all sometimes it's forgiving yourself.
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And I want to, if I may, focus a little bit on the grief.
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Because we often think that grief is about losing a person.
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We can also grieve a dream.
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Yes.
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A parent has a child, and almost instantly a whole imaginary future begins to form.
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The first words, the the first steps, the school, the friends, the independence, and one day they'll get married.
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Even in our tradition, there's a beautiful blessing that we give to marriage and to a life of good deeds and and to independence and and this wish of grandchildren.
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And the truth is that no one's been promised any of those things.
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But somewhere inside we write this story, and then suddenly the child the st the child is born and the story changes.
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And that can create a very complicated grief because the person you love is right here.
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So the parent sometimes feels guilty even acknowledging the grief.
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Like, how can I be sad?
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I I love my child.
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But love and grief are allowed to sit at the same table.
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Yes.
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And it's a split second change from what you thought your life would be to what you know or and don't know in a split second.
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Exactly.
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Exactly.
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You sometimes grief is simply just just love encountering a reality that you never expected.
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Yes.
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Yes.
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And the problem, I think, begins when we tell people that because they love their child, they're not allowed to mourn.
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And then the grief goes underground.
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And underground grief, I don't have to tell you this, it doesn't disappear.
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It just gets heavier.
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Mm-hmm.
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And angrier.
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And angrier.
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It sits deep and it never goes away unless someone helps you deal with that and says the words that you're saying.
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So what are some of the words, Rabbi, that you would, and you know, if I may call you Israel, absolutely thank you.
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Because, you know, when we first met, you made a point not to use your rabbi title in the title of the book.
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Um but I think here maybe this is actually where being the rabbi is important, or the priest or the pastor.
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Um, if indeed people go the spiritual route to try to have some kind of understanding, some meaning to what appears to be incomprehensible.
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I will put on my rabbi hat for a second because I think it'll help here.
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I want to talk about where forgiveness begins.
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Because I think in this very fragile space, we need to go back to the basics.
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In the book, I talk about a zero-to-one moment.
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Before forgiveness, before we try to reframe or try to find meaning, there has to be honesty.
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Just sitting with what hurts.
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No uh inspirational quotes or or theology or the worst.
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This is what I think is the worst.
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Oh, everything happens for a reason.
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Oh yes.
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How awful.
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Yes.
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Awful.
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Yeah, I can say that up to myself.
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But to say that to someone else and just to sit with it, this hurts.
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I am tired.
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I am angry.
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I am jealous when I watch other families.
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I don't understand why this happened.
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I love my child more than life itself.
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And sometimes I hate how hard this life is.
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And if I can say this and putting on my rabbi hat, this is not a failure of faith.
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This is the beginning of faith.
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Because you cannot heal a feeling that you're forbidden to feel.
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Not forgiving not I have to feel the feeling.
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You have to find out have access to that feeling.
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To start the process of forgiving.
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Yes.
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Yes.
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If you're gonna uh if you're gonna suppress the feeling, then we can't even start this process.
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Yeah.
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And and suppressing the feeling is okay because society almost kind of sets us up to suppress the feeling.
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So I it's not shocking that somebody would would would naturally do that.
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And just if I could say this, just the noticing is so powerful.
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Just noticing I am suppressing the feeling.
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I don't want to be in reality right now.
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And sometimes it's too hard.
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And time is a beautiful thing.
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Sometimes it's not the right time.
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In Judaism, we value time most.
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We actually sanctify time.
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We don't sanctify space.
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Other religions sanctify space.
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We sanctify time.
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And sometimes it's not the right time.
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It could be the right person and the wrong time.
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I say that to people dating.
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And if it's the right person and the wrong time when you're dating, it's the wrong person.
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Yes.
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That's how valuable time is.
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Yes.
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And it's okay to say this is too raw, this is too real, this is too shocking.
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I'm not ready for this.
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And I don't know what to do.
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I don't know what to do.
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I don't know who to ask.
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And when a parent, when parents have a child that has a disability or multiple disabilities, often doctors don't offer a list of people to call.
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This is a contact, this is a person, a nurse or someone comes into the hospital room to help.
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No help is given, and you're sent home, and you are supposed to figure this out on your own.
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And that is so unfair.
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And I have heard that story more times than I would have liked to.
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And there's so much help out there.
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There's so much help.
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I think maybe, Rabbi, could you also speak to a different concept of shame?
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Because some people think to ask for help is a weakness.
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Some people think to ask for help is inappropriate.
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Some people think that asking for help no one will listen, and so why bother?
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And so I think that there are people who might avail themselves if they realized that they would be embraced.
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But asking for help is an acknowledgement of a problem.
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Yes.
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And if you ask, you have to be able to acknowledge a need.
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I I remember a woman coming in with her baby, and this beautiful baby, and clearly there was something wrong.
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And I said to her, you have a beautiful baby.
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And she said to me, But don't you see there's something wrong?
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This is not a beautiful baby.
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And I said, Okay, this is where we start.
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Beautiful.
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And she looked at me like she like she couldn't take it in, and I understood that, and I said, We're gonna go slowly.
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What I see is different than what you've what you see perhaps, but what you have experienced, and I want to know everything that you've experienced.
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And she took a deep breath, and she's and to her credit, she started to talk.
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Just her and me and this beautiful baby on a blanket were sitting on the floor, and she starts to talk.
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And that was the beginning of healing.
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So Rabbi, help us.
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I guess we're asking as clinicians, you know, this is this is a hard one.
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How do we help people recognize the opportunity to start the conversation?
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It's the hardest three words in the English language.
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I need help.
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And we can invite people to have a conversation, but we can't force it.
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And sometimes, especially, I can only imagine someone having to deal with such a difficult, difficult situation, a shocking situation to even start this conversation.
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I mean, I love what you said.
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Getting down on the floor, and just for me, that image of you sitting on the floor with this new mother is exactly where it begins.
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You don't even have to say a word.
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Just sit there and hold space.
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Exactly.
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Exactly.
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I think there's some people that are gonna listen to this episode and they're gonna say, Wow, I need this now.
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And some people are gonna say, I want to earmark this.
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I'm gonna save this because I I can't handle this now, but I do want to have this conversation when it's the right time.
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Right.
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And that's a wonderful thing to be able to say, not now, but I know I will.
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In your book, one of the many attractive features is the idea that it's an exercise if you want to use it as such.
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And I'm wondering, is there a kind of exercise in this particular direction that individuals, families, parents can start the process so that they can organize themselves to be ready to start the conversation, to be ready to begin to explore.
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Because I do think that, and by the way, let me make a point to say the book is, and we highly recommend it.
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It's called The Forgiveness Experiment, and I think this is somewhat of an experiment right here and now.
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How to create an exercise to help families who are experiencing the unimaginable, and we want to let them know that the conversation, the opportunity for the conversation exists, and maybe here's how, and I'm I'm going like this to say, okay, you know, your table.
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But um, but I I think sometimes what I see from my families, if I give them an exercise that appears initially pretty simplistic, you know, write down so many things, they can they approach you with a bit of eagerness.
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Oh, I can do this, okay?
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And that doesn't feel too threatening, and then we'll get into the heavy duty.
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But I'm wondering if we could, or maybe you have already in the book, created some form of an exercise that can start the engagement process.
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I'm listening to you, and I'm saying, I really think that we need I have to write some kind of book, which is the forgiveness experiment for people that are going through these difficult situations.
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I I did not plan this conversation, so I'm just kind of thinking it.
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In real time, I'll broadcast live.
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I'm gonna take one of my experiments from the book and I'm gonna see if I can adapt it right now to the situation.
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I appreciate that.
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The one of the most practical tools in the book, and the one that I think has really resonated with a lot of people, is what I call the forgiveness inventory.
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I divide life into three columns.
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My business, none of my business, and what I call God's business, or you can call it the universe's business.
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I I call it God, I'm a rabbi, but you can you can call it whatever whatever makes you happy and doesn't trigger you.
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So for a parent that's navigating a chronic disability, I I imagine these columns like this.
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My business, right?
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If I if I had to so basically this is what I do.
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This is the exercise.
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I take a blank piece of paper and I divide into three columns.
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On the top of the right side, I write my business, in the middle, none of my business, on the left, God's business or the universe's business.
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And then anything that comes in my life, I put into one of those three columns.
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So, for example, my business would be how I love my child.
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My business would be how I advocate.
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How I take care of myself, asking for help, how I speak to my family, how I respond today, whether I allow joy into our home.
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That's my business.
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Then there's n none of my business.
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None of my business would be um other people's uncomfortable reactions to me.
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The stupid comments, the person who stares at me at the grocery store.
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The relative who doesn't understand.
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The friend who randomly stops calling me.
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I wonder why.
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I can address some of those things, but I can't control other people's emotional maturity, so it's none of my business.
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And so I try to, and I get affected most by those things that are none of my business, and just kind of clearly putting them into this column.
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And if it's none of my business, it's none of my business.
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I'm sorry, I cannot hand I cannot take control of how you respond to my life.
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It's not my business.
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It's not my job, it's not my job to control how you're gonna respond to my current life situation.
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And then there's maybe even to a certain extent the hardest column, which is God's business or the universe's business.
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And that's why did this happen?
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Why this child?
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Why me?
00:25:25.039 --> 00:25:26.880
What will the future look like?
00:25:27.440 --> 00:25:30.079
How long will I be able to take care of them?
00:25:30.400 --> 00:25:32.480
What happens after I'm gone?
00:25:32.799 --> 00:25:36.559
And these are enormous questions.
00:25:37.839 --> 00:25:44.799
And it's sometimes parents can carry them twenty-four hours a day.
00:25:46.240 --> 00:25:53.119
And so my invitation to you is to say, I will carry what belongs to me.
00:25:54.079 --> 00:26:04.880
I will stop carrying what belongs to other people, and I'm gonna slowly learn how to hand the universe or God back God's job.
00:26:06.000 --> 00:26:10.160
And I don't think that's giving up.
00:26:10.400 --> 00:26:13.359
I think it's putting the weight in the right backpack.
00:26:17.119 --> 00:26:30.880
So for people who are listening, taking in what you're saying, but are not religious and may not be spiritual, but they're still faced with this.
00:26:31.440 --> 00:26:39.359
I think a lot of people find some spirit when this kind of an event happens.
00:26:42.559 --> 00:26:53.599
What I say to people is I it doesn't matter to me if you are a religious person or not.
00:26:54.240 --> 00:27:04.880
What matters to me is if you have something that sustains you, something that you can hold on to.
00:27:05.440 --> 00:27:17.839
It can be your husband, your wife, it can be the walls of your home, it can be friends who you can speak with.
00:27:19.279 --> 00:27:40.960
Ultimately, it has to be in your heart to know that this child belongs to you and therefore is not just your responsibility, it is your joy, your passion.
00:27:44.720 --> 00:27:59.759
I want to compliment you because this is done in real time, and I appreciate your capacity to take what is an existing exercise and adapt it to this very, very complex chronic issue.
00:28:00.640 --> 00:28:17.680
And um and and and I applaud you as well because I think again you know uh finding religion in the foxhole is you know something that we all can recognize, but there are times that for whatever reason people that's not the direction.
00:28:17.920 --> 00:28:28.880
And so we're offering really a not a universal answer, but uh the existence of support, different exercises.
00:28:28.960 --> 00:28:43.759
And I I like the three columns however you want to classify it, that doesn't necessity doesn't necessitate rather that that someone has to abide by a particular religious direction.
00:28:44.079 --> 00:28:45.920
Because when you're hurting, you're hurting.
00:28:46.559 --> 00:28:55.119
And whether you however what however you come to terms with that direction, I think this is a start to the conversation.
00:28:55.440 --> 00:28:57.279
So I want to thank you.
00:28:57.440 --> 00:29:11.599
I want to thank you for absolutely for for continuing to expand the conversation and you know I hope, if anything, if we've given you another idea for an expansion of your book, we applaud.
00:29:12.240 --> 00:29:18.079
We will read it and we applaud because it is needed.
00:29:18.319 --> 00:29:20.240
It is so needed.
00:29:20.480 --> 00:30:06.960
There are, as you know, there are so many people that are hurting for so many reasons, especially now in the world that we live in, that if, you know, Estee and I talk about this a lot as family therapists, as therapists who work with parents and grandparents and children and babies, if we can help families to raise their children better than they were raised, if we can help them understand what it means to be a good enough parent, then we've done our job.
00:30:08.559 --> 00:30:28.400
But I'm appreciative again of the fact that what we are experiencing as as clinicians, people are finding us on the street and they're stopping us, and you know, we got our 15 seconds of fame here, you know, oh I recognize you, right?
00:30:28.720 --> 00:30:43.279
But what they're saying is they're beginning to start having immediate conversations because what they're identifying is the opportunity to begin to bring up these these talks.
00:30:43.440 --> 00:31:01.279
So I also want to thank the viewers who wrote in, who stopped us on the street, who um shared their personal stories because they said we want to expand this conversation because it it the conversation with the rabbi was wonderful, but it was incomplete to our story.
00:31:01.680 --> 00:31:02.480
So thank you.
00:31:02.720 --> 00:31:14.240
Thank you for having for coming on board and for helping us to complete this part of the story, or at least widen widen widen the conversation.
00:31:14.480 --> 00:31:14.880
Yes.
00:31:15.039 --> 00:31:18.160
So yes, we want to thank this is Dr.
00:31:18.319 --> 00:31:19.279
SD Hess.
00:31:19.519 --> 00:31:20.240
And I am Dr.
00:31:20.400 --> 00:31:21.440
Ann Kirsch.
00:31:22.559 --> 00:31:50.319
And we hope that everyone who is watching has learned something about their own personal power in the face of the worst situations that they can find themselves in, that they have power and they have control and they have people they can turn to to ask questions.
00:31:51.200 --> 00:31:55.839
We are not alone unless we choose to be alone.
00:31:56.720 --> 00:32:08.640
So, with that, we want to thank Rabbi Yusro Barnath, the author of a wonderful book, The Forgiveness Experiment, which I believe you mentioned is available on Amazon.
00:32:08.799 --> 00:32:14.240
And I think you mentioned that you're going to be speaking the audio portion of the book or have already.
00:32:14.559 --> 00:32:18.079
There is already the audio book, it is out on Spotify and Audible.
00:32:18.319 --> 00:32:21.839
Um I do speak, I it's my voice.
00:32:22.160 --> 00:32:22.400
Okay.
00:32:22.720 --> 00:32:23.200
Wonderful.
00:32:23.519 --> 00:32:25.519
So we got the real deal here.
00:32:25.680 --> 00:32:30.559
Wishing those who celebrate the start of a healthy and happy new year.
00:32:30.960 --> 00:32:35.839
And for all of our listeners, we wish health and safety and a good evening.
00:32:36.079 --> 00:32:36.559
Yes.
00:00:30.239 --> 00:00:31.440
Good evening, everyone.
00:00:31.519 --> 00:00:32.000
This is Dr.
00:00:32.159 --> 00:00:33.200
Estee Hess.
00:00:33.520 --> 00:00:34.399
And I'm Dr.
00:00:34.560 --> 00:00:35.679
Anne Kirsch.
00:00:36.000 --> 00:00:41.280
And we are once again doing our wonderful podcast on and off the spectrum.
00:00:41.520 --> 00:00:49.920
We have had a return guest, Rabbi Israel Marnath, who is a rabbi in Montreal, Canada.
00:00:50.000 --> 00:00:58.479
And thank you again for joining from the East Coast, where it is quite a bit later than we are enjoying this hour of Twilight.
00:00:59.119 --> 00:01:10.000
But we specifically invited the rabbi back because we've heard from so many of our viewership about how important the topic of forgiveness is.
00:01:10.480 --> 00:01:15.120
The exercises that you suggested in your workbook are wonderful.
00:01:15.519 --> 00:01:21.200
But people have brought to the forefront some pretty difficult subjects.
00:01:21.519 --> 00:01:30.799
For example, uh my specialty, both of our specialties actually, are children and families having to do with developmental delays.
00:01:31.120 --> 00:01:37.200
And I have uh one woman approached me and she said, Well, how am I supposed to forgive God?
00:01:37.599 --> 00:01:40.079
I have multiple children on the spectrum.
00:01:40.560 --> 00:01:46.799
I have children who are not verbal, I have children who will forever and never be able to be launched.
00:01:47.040 --> 00:01:51.359
I will have to probably place them in some kind of facility eventually.
00:01:51.599 --> 00:01:56.400
And I'm looking at this, and they are just babies, but I know my future.
00:01:56.640 --> 00:01:58.799
And how am I supposed to forgive?
00:01:59.040 --> 00:02:27.520
And so this is such a um an expansion of the topic of forgiveness that I thought we would present it to you to talk about not that it's ever necessarily easy to forgive, but particularly when the circumstances look and feel very dire and a chronic illness of some kind, whether for yourself or someone you love, how do you approach this topic of forgiveness?
00:02:27.840 --> 00:02:34.800
And I also want to add that along with this kind of forgiveness, there are other feelings.
00:02:34.960 --> 00:02:44.639
There's anger, there's um fury at God, at whatever the universe brings to you.
00:02:45.439 --> 00:02:48.240
There is um why me?
00:02:48.719 --> 00:02:52.400
There is what did I do to cause this?
00:02:52.800 --> 00:02:55.039
Mothers say this a lot.
00:02:55.599 --> 00:02:58.639
Did I do something during my pregnancy?
00:02:58.960 --> 00:02:59.919
Taking responsibility.
00:03:00.080 --> 00:03:03.759
Is there something that is in my genetics?
00:03:03.919 --> 00:03:10.639
Because my husband doesn't have any of this on his on his side of the family that we know of.
00:03:11.039 --> 00:03:14.639
But on my side, there are all kinds of things.
00:03:14.960 --> 00:03:22.800
So it gets very complicated and it gets for a lot of people, it gets very interior.
00:03:25.039 --> 00:03:44.159
So we promised you a hot topic, and uh, but we also know on the eve of for those who do acknowledge that the new year is fast approaching, this is the time where we do some emotional heavy lifting overall.
00:03:44.879 --> 00:03:50.800
And uh I thought this was a very good topic to help launch that experience.
00:03:51.840 --> 00:03:53.280
Well, thank you for having me back.
00:03:53.360 --> 00:03:55.199
I'm honored to be back here.
00:03:55.919 --> 00:03:56.719
Please.
00:03:58.400 --> 00:04:11.199
First of all, I want to really extend my heartfelt connection and love towards those people who are asking this question.
00:04:11.439 --> 00:04:14.719
It's not an easy question, it's a very difficult question.
00:04:14.960 --> 00:04:32.000
It's a question that needs to be held, it needs to be coddled, and I'm gonna try my best to slowly unpack it, but I don't know if we'll be able to fully unpack it tonight.
00:04:32.639 --> 00:04:39.759
And I think that having this opportunity, even having this conversation, is so powerful.
00:04:40.639 --> 00:04:58.879
The first thing that comes to mind when you ask the question and and your series of questions, is often when we hear the word forgiveness, we usually imagine that somebody did something wrong.
00:04:59.519 --> 00:05:06.480
Somebody betrayed me, someone hurt me, someone owes me an apology.
00:05:08.319 --> 00:05:10.480
But there's another kind of pain.
00:05:11.360 --> 00:05:15.759
What happens when nobody did anything wrong?
00:05:17.120 --> 00:05:21.600
When a child is born with a profound disability?
00:05:22.560 --> 00:05:29.439
What happens when a diagnosis enters a family and never leaves?
00:05:29.600 --> 00:05:45.680
What happens when parents spend years and and sometimes decades navigating hospitals and therapies and appointments and advocacy and exhaustion and fear and financial pressure?
00:05:45.920 --> 00:05:51.040
Like who who exactly are they supposed to forgive?
00:05:52.720 --> 00:05:56.959
And this is a a question that I'm sitting with it.
00:05:57.600 --> 00:06:05.519
And I think I think sometimes forgiveness is not about forgiving a person.
00:06:06.319 --> 00:06:13.279
Sometimes forgiveness is about releasing an argument with reality.
00:06:17.040 --> 00:06:28.560
So the first thing I would say is that the parent is not forgiving the child.
00:06:28.879 --> 00:06:32.079
The child has done absolutely nothing wrong.
00:06:34.319 --> 00:06:45.199
And a parent can can love their child ferociously, completely, and still carry enormous grief.
00:06:46.879 --> 00:06:49.759
And those two things are not contradictions.
00:06:50.720 --> 00:06:58.560
You can adore the child sitting in front of you and still grieve the future that you once imagined.
00:07:00.480 --> 00:07:12.959
You can feel you can feel enormous gratitude for this beautiful soul that you've been entrusted with, and say that this is not the life that I thought I was gonna have.
00:07:13.120 --> 00:07:15.439
And that doesn't make you a bad parent.
00:07:15.600 --> 00:07:16.959
It makes you human.
00:07:18.000 --> 00:07:22.879
And so this forgiveness work is not forgiving your child.
00:07:24.160 --> 00:07:38.879
Maybe and I'm just broadcasting live here, I haven't really processed it fully, but it may be forgiving life, it may be even forgiving God, if we can talk about this on a more uh spiritual level.
00:07:39.040 --> 00:07:55.120
It may be forgiving a spouse who sometimes responds differently than you do, or forgiving relatives who disappeared because they didn't know what to say.
00:07:56.240 --> 00:08:01.600
And maybe the hardest forgiveness of all sometimes it's forgiving yourself.
00:08:04.480 --> 00:08:08.560
And I want to, if I may, focus a little bit on the grief.
00:08:08.800 --> 00:08:13.040
Because we often think that grief is about losing a person.
00:08:13.600 --> 00:08:15.600
We can also grieve a dream.
00:08:16.560 --> 00:08:17.199
Yes.
00:08:19.120 --> 00:08:28.480
A parent has a child, and almost instantly a whole imaginary future begins to form.
00:08:28.959 --> 00:08:38.000
The first words, the the first steps, the school, the friends, the independence, and one day they'll get married.
00:08:38.159 --> 00:08:50.480
Even in our tradition, there's a beautiful blessing that we give to marriage and to a life of good deeds and and to independence and and this wish of grandchildren.
00:08:52.480 --> 00:08:55.759
And the truth is that no one's been promised any of those things.
00:08:58.080 --> 00:09:09.600
But somewhere inside we write this story, and then suddenly the child the st the child is born and the story changes.
00:09:10.639 --> 00:09:18.639
And that can create a very complicated grief because the person you love is right here.
00:09:19.360 --> 00:09:26.399
So the parent sometimes feels guilty even acknowledging the grief.
00:09:26.639 --> 00:09:28.559
Like, how can I be sad?
00:09:28.639 --> 00:09:30.399
I I love my child.
00:09:31.360 --> 00:09:36.000
But love and grief are allowed to sit at the same table.
00:09:36.720 --> 00:09:37.279
Yes.
00:09:37.519 --> 00:09:51.200
And it's a split second change from what you thought your life would be to what you know or and don't know in a split second.
00:09:51.679 --> 00:09:52.639
Exactly.
00:09:53.919 --> 00:09:54.559
Exactly.
00:09:54.720 --> 00:10:04.559
You sometimes grief is simply just just love encountering a reality that you never expected.
00:10:05.360 --> 00:10:05.919
Yes.
00:10:06.399 --> 00:10:07.039
Yes.
00:10:08.240 --> 00:10:18.960
And the problem, I think, begins when we tell people that because they love their child, they're not allowed to mourn.
00:10:21.440 --> 00:10:23.759
And then the grief goes underground.
00:10:24.080 --> 00:10:28.320
And underground grief, I don't have to tell you this, it doesn't disappear.
00:10:28.480 --> 00:10:29.919
It just gets heavier.
00:10:30.320 --> 00:10:30.799
Mm-hmm.
00:10:32.000 --> 00:10:33.120
And angrier.
00:10:33.519 --> 00:10:34.399
And angrier.
00:10:34.960 --> 00:10:47.039
It sits deep and it never goes away unless someone helps you deal with that and says the words that you're saying.
00:10:48.240 --> 00:11:00.080
So what are some of the words, Rabbi, that you would, and you know, if I may call you Israel, absolutely thank you.
00:11:00.320 --> 00:11:07.519
Because, you know, when we first met, you made a point not to use your rabbi title in the title of the book.
00:11:07.759 --> 00:11:16.000
Um but I think here maybe this is actually where being the rabbi is important, or the priest or the pastor.
00:11:16.639 --> 00:11:27.840
Um, if indeed people go the spiritual route to try to have some kind of understanding, some meaning to what appears to be incomprehensible.
00:11:30.080 --> 00:11:33.279
I will put on my rabbi hat for a second because I think it'll help here.
00:11:34.559 --> 00:11:38.559
I want to talk about where forgiveness begins.
00:11:40.320 --> 00:11:50.639
Because I think in this very fragile space, we need to go back to the basics.
00:11:51.120 --> 00:11:54.879
In the book, I talk about a zero-to-one moment.
00:11:56.159 --> 00:12:07.279
Before forgiveness, before we try to reframe or try to find meaning, there has to be honesty.
00:12:08.879 --> 00:12:11.679
Just sitting with what hurts.
00:12:13.360 --> 00:12:22.559
No uh inspirational quotes or or theology or the worst.
00:12:22.720 --> 00:12:24.639
This is what I think is the worst.
00:12:24.960 --> 00:12:27.840
Oh, everything happens for a reason.
00:12:28.080 --> 00:12:29.039
Oh yes.
00:12:29.279 --> 00:12:30.320
How awful.
00:12:30.480 --> 00:12:30.960
Yes.
00:12:31.279 --> 00:12:32.080
Awful.
00:12:32.960 --> 00:12:35.200
Yeah, I can say that up to myself.
00:12:35.519 --> 00:12:43.360
But to say that to someone else and just to sit with it, this hurts.
00:12:43.919 --> 00:12:45.200
I am tired.
00:12:46.720 --> 00:12:48.000
I am angry.
00:12:49.120 --> 00:12:52.480
I am jealous when I watch other families.
00:12:54.720 --> 00:12:57.679
I don't understand why this happened.
00:12:58.639 --> 00:13:04.799
I love my child more than life itself.
00:13:05.039 --> 00:13:09.679
And sometimes I hate how hard this life is.
00:13:11.519 --> 00:13:17.440
And if I can say this and putting on my rabbi hat, this is not a failure of faith.
00:13:17.600 --> 00:13:19.679
This is the beginning of faith.
00:13:20.799 --> 00:13:27.039
Because you cannot heal a feeling that you're forbidden to feel.
00:13:34.080 --> 00:13:39.039
Not forgiving not I have to feel the feeling.
00:13:39.679 --> 00:13:42.240
You have to find out have access to that feeling.
00:13:42.480 --> 00:13:44.080
To start the process of forgiving.
00:13:44.480 --> 00:13:45.039
Yes.
00:13:46.960 --> 00:13:47.600
Yes.
00:13:49.600 --> 00:13:54.639
If you're gonna uh if you're gonna suppress the feeling, then we can't even start this process.
00:13:55.279 --> 00:13:55.840
Yeah.
00:13:56.720 --> 00:14:02.480
And and suppressing the feeling is okay because society almost kind of sets us up to suppress the feeling.
00:14:02.639 --> 00:14:06.879
So I it's not shocking that somebody would would would naturally do that.
00:14:07.039 --> 00:14:11.519
And just if I could say this, just the noticing is so powerful.
00:14:11.679 --> 00:14:14.240
Just noticing I am suppressing the feeling.
00:14:14.320 --> 00:14:16.240
I don't want to be in reality right now.
00:14:16.399 --> 00:14:18.320
And sometimes it's too hard.
00:14:18.559 --> 00:14:20.399
And time is a beautiful thing.
00:14:20.960 --> 00:14:22.799
Sometimes it's not the right time.
00:14:22.960 --> 00:14:26.080
In Judaism, we value time most.
00:14:26.559 --> 00:14:28.159
We actually sanctify time.
00:14:28.399 --> 00:14:29.840
We don't sanctify space.
00:14:30.000 --> 00:14:31.919
Other religions sanctify space.
00:14:32.159 --> 00:14:33.679
We sanctify time.
00:14:33.919 --> 00:14:36.320
And sometimes it's not the right time.
00:14:36.480 --> 00:14:38.960
It could be the right person and the wrong time.
00:14:39.039 --> 00:14:40.320
I say that to people dating.
00:14:42.000 --> 00:14:46.559
And if it's the right person and the wrong time when you're dating, it's the wrong person.
00:14:47.679 --> 00:14:48.080
Yes.
00:14:48.399 --> 00:14:50.320
That's how valuable time is.
00:14:52.320 --> 00:14:52.960
Yes.
00:14:54.159 --> 00:14:58.720
And it's okay to say this is too raw, this is too real, this is too shocking.
00:14:58.879 --> 00:15:00.240
I'm not ready for this.
00:15:00.720 --> 00:15:02.320
And I don't know what to do.
00:15:02.559 --> 00:15:03.360
I don't know what to do.
00:15:03.759 --> 00:15:05.519
I don't know who to ask.
00:15:06.000 --> 00:15:21.600
And when a parent, when parents have a child that has a disability or multiple disabilities, often doctors don't offer a list of people to call.
00:15:22.000 --> 00:15:29.679
This is a contact, this is a person, a nurse or someone comes into the hospital room to help.
00:15:30.320 --> 00:15:36.960
No help is given, and you're sent home, and you are supposed to figure this out on your own.
00:15:37.200 --> 00:15:39.519
And that is so unfair.
00:15:39.600 --> 00:15:46.399
And I have heard that story more times than I would have liked to.
00:15:47.679 --> 00:15:49.679
And there's so much help out there.
00:15:49.840 --> 00:15:52.000
There's so much help.
00:15:55.200 --> 00:16:01.120
I think maybe, Rabbi, could you also speak to a different concept of shame?
00:16:03.039 --> 00:16:08.960
Because some people think to ask for help is a weakness.
00:16:09.919 --> 00:16:14.080
Some people think to ask for help is inappropriate.
00:16:14.879 --> 00:16:20.000
Some people think that asking for help no one will listen, and so why bother?
00:16:20.639 --> 00:16:28.960
And so I think that there are people who might avail themselves if they realized that they would be embraced.
00:16:30.399 --> 00:16:34.480
But asking for help is an acknowledgement of a problem.
00:16:34.879 --> 00:16:35.360
Yes.
00:16:36.159 --> 00:16:42.480
And if you ask, you have to be able to acknowledge a need.
00:16:48.320 --> 00:16:57.600
I I remember a woman coming in with her baby, and this beautiful baby, and clearly there was something wrong.
00:16:57.840 --> 00:17:02.879
And I said to her, you have a beautiful baby.
00:17:03.519 --> 00:17:12.400
And she said to me, But don't you see there's something wrong?
00:17:13.599 --> 00:17:16.240
This is not a beautiful baby.
00:17:16.559 --> 00:17:20.400
And I said, Okay, this is where we start.
00:17:21.680 --> 00:17:22.319
Beautiful.
00:17:22.880 --> 00:17:32.880
And she looked at me like she like she couldn't take it in, and I understood that, and I said, We're gonna go slowly.
00:17:33.680 --> 00:17:46.160
What I see is different than what you've what you see perhaps, but what you have experienced, and I want to know everything that you've experienced.
00:17:47.200 --> 00:17:54.799
And she took a deep breath, and she's and to her credit, she started to talk.
00:17:55.920 --> 00:18:05.200
Just her and me and this beautiful baby on a blanket were sitting on the floor, and she starts to talk.
00:18:06.000 --> 00:18:08.799
And that was the beginning of healing.
00:18:11.759 --> 00:18:16.480
So Rabbi, help us.
00:18:17.440 --> 00:18:23.279
I guess we're asking as clinicians, you know, this is this is a hard one.
00:18:24.319 --> 00:18:32.000
How do we help people recognize the opportunity to start the conversation?
00:18:33.279 --> 00:18:36.240
It's the hardest three words in the English language.
00:18:36.559 --> 00:18:38.079
I need help.
00:18:40.000 --> 00:18:46.240
And we can invite people to have a conversation, but we can't force it.
00:18:46.559 --> 00:18:57.599
And sometimes, especially, I can only imagine someone having to deal with such a difficult, difficult situation, a shocking situation to even start this conversation.
00:18:57.759 --> 00:18:59.440
I mean, I love what you said.
00:18:59.759 --> 00:19:07.759
Getting down on the floor, and just for me, that image of you sitting on the floor with this new mother is exactly where it begins.
00:19:07.920 --> 00:19:09.920
You don't even have to say a word.
00:19:10.480 --> 00:19:12.880
Just sit there and hold space.
00:19:13.599 --> 00:19:14.559
Exactly.
00:19:16.160 --> 00:19:16.880
Exactly.
00:19:17.440 --> 00:19:24.640
I think there's some people that are gonna listen to this episode and they're gonna say, Wow, I need this now.
00:19:24.799 --> 00:19:27.599
And some people are gonna say, I want to earmark this.
00:19:27.839 --> 00:19:35.279
I'm gonna save this because I I can't handle this now, but I do want to have this conversation when it's the right time.
00:19:35.599 --> 00:19:36.079
Right.
00:19:37.039 --> 00:19:44.799
And that's a wonderful thing to be able to say, not now, but I know I will.
00:19:46.960 --> 00:19:56.400
In your book, one of the many attractive features is the idea that it's an exercise if you want to use it as such.
00:19:57.200 --> 00:20:21.519
And I'm wondering, is there a kind of exercise in this particular direction that individuals, families, parents can start the process so that they can organize themselves to be ready to start the conversation, to be ready to begin to explore.
00:20:21.839 --> 00:20:29.200
Because I do think that, and by the way, let me make a point to say the book is, and we highly recommend it.
00:20:29.279 --> 00:20:36.960
It's called The Forgiveness Experiment, and I think this is somewhat of an experiment right here and now.
00:20:37.119 --> 00:21:03.519
How to create an exercise to help families who are experiencing the unimaginable, and we want to let them know that the conversation, the opportunity for the conversation exists, and maybe here's how, and I'm I'm going like this to say, okay, you know, your table.
00:21:03.839 --> 00:21:22.480
But um, but I I think sometimes what I see from my families, if I give them an exercise that appears initially pretty simplistic, you know, write down so many things, they can they approach you with a bit of eagerness.
00:21:22.640 --> 00:21:23.759
Oh, I can do this, okay?
00:21:23.839 --> 00:21:26.880
And that doesn't feel too threatening, and then we'll get into the heavy duty.
00:21:28.240 --> 00:21:39.359
But I'm wondering if we could, or maybe you have already in the book, created some form of an exercise that can start the engagement process.
00:21:41.519 --> 00:21:54.240
I'm listening to you, and I'm saying, I really think that we need I have to write some kind of book, which is the forgiveness experiment for people that are going through these difficult situations.
00:21:54.400 --> 00:21:59.680
I I did not plan this conversation, so I'm just kind of thinking it.
00:22:00.160 --> 00:22:01.920
In real time, I'll broadcast live.
00:22:02.160 --> 00:22:09.279
I'm gonna take one of my experiments from the book and I'm gonna see if I can adapt it right now to the situation.
00:22:09.599 --> 00:22:10.880
I appreciate that.
00:22:11.279 --> 00:22:22.559
The one of the most practical tools in the book, and the one that I think has really resonated with a lot of people, is what I call the forgiveness inventory.
00:22:24.319 --> 00:22:27.200
I divide life into three columns.
00:22:28.400 --> 00:22:35.440
My business, none of my business, and what I call God's business, or you can call it the universe's business.
00:22:35.599 --> 00:22:42.319
I I call it God, I'm a rabbi, but you can you can call it whatever whatever makes you happy and doesn't trigger you.
00:22:43.279 --> 00:22:51.680
So for a parent that's navigating a chronic disability, I I imagine these columns like this.
00:22:52.319 --> 00:22:53.440
My business, right?
00:22:53.519 --> 00:22:55.680
If I if I had to so basically this is what I do.
00:22:55.759 --> 00:22:56.559
This is the exercise.
00:22:56.640 --> 00:22:59.440
I take a blank piece of paper and I divide into three columns.
00:22:59.680 --> 00:23:07.680
On the top of the right side, I write my business, in the middle, none of my business, on the left, God's business or the universe's business.
00:23:07.920 --> 00:23:14.240
And then anything that comes in my life, I put into one of those three columns.
00:23:14.960 --> 00:23:20.400
So, for example, my business would be how I love my child.
00:23:20.799 --> 00:23:23.680
My business would be how I advocate.
00:23:24.799 --> 00:23:41.039
How I take care of myself, asking for help, how I speak to my family, how I respond today, whether I allow joy into our home.
00:23:41.599 --> 00:23:43.039
That's my business.
00:23:45.119 --> 00:23:46.799
Then there's n none of my business.
00:23:46.960 --> 00:23:53.599
None of my business would be um other people's uncomfortable reactions to me.
00:23:54.960 --> 00:24:00.160
The stupid comments, the person who stares at me at the grocery store.
00:24:02.480 --> 00:24:04.559
The relative who doesn't understand.
00:24:05.839 --> 00:24:10.079
The friend who randomly stops calling me.
00:24:10.240 --> 00:24:11.200
I wonder why.
00:24:13.759 --> 00:24:22.240
I can address some of those things, but I can't control other people's emotional maturity, so it's none of my business.
00:24:25.200 --> 00:24:33.839
And so I try to, and I get affected most by those things that are none of my business, and just kind of clearly putting them into this column.
00:24:34.160 --> 00:24:37.359
And if it's none of my business, it's none of my business.
00:24:39.039 --> 00:24:45.200
I'm sorry, I cannot hand I cannot take control of how you respond to my life.
00:24:45.440 --> 00:24:46.559
It's not my business.
00:25:05.039 --> 00:25:11.279
It's not my job, it's not my job to control how you're gonna respond to my current life situation.
00:25:12.400 --> 00:25:19.680
And then there's maybe even to a certain extent the hardest column, which is God's business or the universe's business.
00:25:19.839 --> 00:25:21.759
And that's why did this happen?
00:25:21.920 --> 00:25:23.279
Why this child?
00:25:23.920 --> 00:25:24.799
Why me?
00:25:25.039 --> 00:25:26.880
What will the future look like?
00:25:27.440 --> 00:25:30.079
How long will I be able to take care of them?
00:25:30.400 --> 00:25:32.480
What happens after I'm gone?
00:25:32.799 --> 00:25:36.559
And these are enormous questions.
00:25:37.839 --> 00:25:44.799
And it's sometimes parents can carry them twenty-four hours a day.
00:25:46.240 --> 00:25:53.119
And so my invitation to you is to say, I will carry what belongs to me.
00:25:54.079 --> 00:26:04.880
I will stop carrying what belongs to other people, and I'm gonna slowly learn how to hand the universe or God back God's job.
00:26:06.000 --> 00:26:10.160
And I don't think that's giving up.
00:26:10.400 --> 00:26:13.359
I think it's putting the weight in the right backpack.
00:26:17.119 --> 00:26:30.880
So for people who are listening, taking in what you're saying, but are not religious and may not be spiritual, but they're still faced with this.
00:26:31.440 --> 00:26:39.359
I think a lot of people find some spirit when this kind of an event happens.
00:26:42.559 --> 00:26:53.599
What I say to people is I it doesn't matter to me if you are a religious person or not.
00:26:54.240 --> 00:27:04.880
What matters to me is if you have something that sustains you, something that you can hold on to.
00:27:05.440 --> 00:27:17.839
It can be your husband, your wife, it can be the walls of your home, it can be friends who you can speak with.
00:27:19.279 --> 00:27:40.960
Ultimately, it has to be in your heart to know that this child belongs to you and therefore is not just your responsibility, it is your joy, your passion.
00:27:44.720 --> 00:27:59.759
I want to compliment you because this is done in real time, and I appreciate your capacity to take what is an existing exercise and adapt it to this very, very complex chronic issue.
00:28:00.640 --> 00:28:17.680
And um and and and I applaud you as well because I think again you know uh finding religion in the foxhole is you know something that we all can recognize, but there are times that for whatever reason people that's not the direction.
00:28:17.920 --> 00:28:28.880
And so we're offering really a not a universal answer, but uh the existence of support, different exercises.
00:28:28.960 --> 00:28:43.759
And I I like the three columns however you want to classify it, that doesn't necessity doesn't necessitate rather that that someone has to abide by a particular religious direction.
00:28:44.079 --> 00:28:45.920
Because when you're hurting, you're hurting.
00:28:46.559 --> 00:28:55.119
And whether you however what however you come to terms with that direction, I think this is a start to the conversation.
00:28:55.440 --> 00:28:57.279
So I want to thank you.
00:28:57.440 --> 00:29:11.599
I want to thank you for absolutely for for continuing to expand the conversation and you know I hope, if anything, if we've given you another idea for an expansion of your book, we applaud.
00:29:12.240 --> 00:29:18.079
We will read it and we applaud because it is needed.
00:29:18.319 --> 00:29:20.240
It is so needed.
00:29:20.480 --> 00:30:06.960
There are, as you know, there are so many people that are hurting for so many reasons, especially now in the world that we live in, that if, you know, Estee and I talk about this a lot as family therapists, as therapists who work with parents and grandparents and children and babies, if we can help families to raise their children better than they were raised, if we can help them understand what it means to be a good enough parent, then we've done our job.
00:30:08.559 --> 00:30:28.400
But I'm appreciative again of the fact that what we are experiencing as as clinicians, people are finding us on the street and they're stopping us, and you know, we got our 15 seconds of fame here, you know, oh I recognize you, right?
00:30:28.720 --> 00:30:43.279
But what they're saying is they're beginning to start having immediate conversations because what they're identifying is the opportunity to begin to bring up these these talks.
00:30:43.440 --> 00:31:01.279
So I also want to thank the viewers who wrote in, who stopped us on the street, who um shared their personal stories because they said we want to expand this conversation because it it the conversation with the rabbi was wonderful, but it was incomplete to our story.
00:31:01.680 --> 00:31:02.480
So thank you.
00:31:02.720 --> 00:31:14.240
Thank you for having for coming on board and for helping us to complete this part of the story, or at least widen widen widen the conversation.
00:31:14.480 --> 00:31:14.880
Yes.
00:31:15.039 --> 00:31:18.160
So yes, we want to thank this is Dr.
00:31:18.319 --> 00:31:19.279
SD Hess.
00:31:19.519 --> 00:31:20.240
And I am Dr.
00:31:20.400 --> 00:31:21.440
Ann Kirsch.
00:31:22.559 --> 00:31:50.319
And we hope that everyone who is watching has learned something about their own personal power in the face of the worst situations that they can find themselves in, that they have power and they have control and they have people they can turn to to ask questions.
00:31:51.200 --> 00:31:55.839
We are not alone unless we choose to be alone.
00:31:56.720 --> 00:32:08.640
So, with that, we want to thank Rabbi Yusro Barnath, the author of a wonderful book, The Forgiveness Experiment, which I believe you mentioned is available on Amazon.
00:32:08.799 --> 00:32:14.240
And I think you mentioned that you're going to be speaking the audio portion of the book or have already.
00:32:14.559 --> 00:32:18.079
There is already the audio book, it is out on Spotify and Audible.
00:32:18.319 --> 00:32:21.839
Um I do speak, I it's my voice.
00:32:22.160 --> 00:32:22.400
Okay.
00:32:22.720 --> 00:32:23.200
Wonderful.
00:32:23.519 --> 00:32:25.519
So we got the real deal here.
00:32:25.680 --> 00:32:30.559
Wishing those who celebrate the start of a healthy and happy new year.
00:32:30.960 --> 00:32:35.839
And for all of our listeners, we wish health and safety and a good evening.
00:32:36.079 --> 00:32:36.559
Yes.
