Psychedeliology (HALLUCINOGENS) Part 2 with Charles Grob

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Get value you can't argue with at Tesco with their
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amazing club card prices. Have the perfect night in with
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their finest frozen pizza meal deal. Get the finest frozen pizza,
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chips and ice cream all for six euro. Like a
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delicious spicy salami, hot honey and do you or Margarito
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wood fired pizzas served up with their crispy junkie chips
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and ice cream like sea sial de caramel or pistachio
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for dessert.
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Can't argue with that. Shelp in store or online Tesco.
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Every little helps available in most stories, prices very in express.
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Okay, once again it's the lady eating berries off a
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bush in the park alley. Ward. Here we are part
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two of an episode six years in the making. Go
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back to part one if you didn't start there, you'll
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get all the basics. Do one and then you do
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two in that order. Okay, So we are talking psychopharmacology, neurobiology, psychology, traumatology,
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and so much more with one of the leading experts
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in the field of psychedelics and hallucinogen research. So in
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part one we learned about the chemical structure of hallucinaeens,
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what receptors and networks of the brain they work in,
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and if hallucinations or dreams, neuroplasticity, psychosis risks secret cia
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shenanigans that killed even one of its closest allies. So
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much more, and in this episode we're going to talk
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about how hallucinogens are administered in the safest medical settings,
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different strains of mushrooms, decriminalization status, some recent rulings. We'll
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talk about cultivation dimensions, what's reality, how does one avoid barfing?
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And so much more. But first, a huge thank you
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to patrons of ologies who pay one dollar or more
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a month and submit questions for the show beforehand. These
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are wall to wall your questions. You can also support
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ologies by wearing an Ology's shirt or a tote you
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can tell a friend. Those shirts and totes are available
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at ologiesmerch dot com or for zero dollars zero sense.
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Feel free to leave us a review because they boost
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the show so much and they make my day. Such
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is this new one from Wildflower Soul, who were at
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an animal shelter and while listening to the Cappy bearra
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episode quote, it awakened a primal feeling in my guinea
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pigs and they all started wheaking along like they were
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Cappa bears. They were living their wild lives. Thank you,
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everyone else lives short. Summer's here, cut banks, textra crush,
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consult a doctor before doing any drugs. Let's get into it, Okay,
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So this very first question was all about access. Maureen
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Flood asked how long until we reach the point of
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being able to prescribe these to patients? Sarah Metsker and
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Johnny Clark asked what is your professional opinion about legalization?
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Kelly Dueling, Gregorious of thomsk Adam T Burns, Emma Scott,
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and Brennan Hicks all wanted to know about legalization, and
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Brenna wrote, just to speak, the FDA ruled against MDMA
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for treatment of PTSD. Do you think this ruling will
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affect the outcome of similar studies for shrooms? So let's
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a your cues about set and setting, decriminalization, stone ape theory,
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fMRI studies, neurodivergence, astrophysics, how to be a good trip sitter,
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and my own experience following clinical guidelines for a big trip,
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and more of your questions with a professor of Psychiatry
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and Pediatrics at the UCLA School of Medicine and the
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director of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry at the Harbor UCLA Medcenter,
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co editor of the tome The Handbook of Medical Hallucinogens,
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and psychedeliologist doctor Charles grow. A lot of people wanted
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to know about access. People wanted to know, what's your
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opinion on legalizing all hallucinogetic mushrooms? How do you feel
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about Oregon recently legalizing it? Where are we at with it?
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If someone wanted to do this, Like my psychiatrist is like,
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just get a hold of some I so far I
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haven't been arrested for talking about it, right right?
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I knock what knock? Knock? Well.
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Also, this whole situation maybe has changed in the last week,
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given what we're learning about the MAPS hearing at FDA.
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It was very, very negative. They were highly critical of MAPS.
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So well, let's extend over to psilocybin.
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I don't know so MAPS side note stands for the
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Multidisciplinary Association for Psychedelic Studies and it's this nonprofit. It's
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based in the US, and it focuses on research for
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MDMA for PTSD, ayahuasca, for addiction in PTSD, medical cannabis, LSD,
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and psilocybin for anxiety and depression. And just days before
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we sat down to record this, an FDA panel rejected
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research for MDMA aid to therapy for PTSD, which is
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a huge blow to researchers and psychedeliologists, if you will,
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And according to this recent New York Times article about it,
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the panel wasn't convinced that the benefits outweigh the risks
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in MDMASS therapy, and they cited these potential cardiovascular effects,
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but also called into question how blinded the methodology is,
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given that subjects can usually tell whether they have been
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given a dud or whether they are chewing their cheeks
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and rolling on molly in front of a guy in
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a lab coat. So it was a nine to two
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vote total bummer and other experts and cheerleaders of this therapy,
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including some sexual assault survivors who showed up to speak
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about how revolutionary the therapy was for them, have been
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pretty disappointed. Now, it should also be noted that the
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FDA doesn't regulate talk therapy at all, so it's a
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tough thing to regulate. It's a tough thing to study. Now,
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what does this mean for access to hallucinogenic or psychedelic therapies. Now,
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criminalization varies not only country to country, but state to
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state and city to city. Now Oregons do criminalization law
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went into effect in January twenty twenty three, and Denver
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has a green light, and California passed some resolutions in
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Santa Cruz and Berkeley and San Francisco marking psychedelics as
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the lowest law enforcement priority or like don't worry about
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it now. Back in twenty nineteen, Oakland passed a similar
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resolution stating that no city funds or resources can go
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to the enforcement of laws imposing criminal penalties for the
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use and possession of entheogenic plants by adults. So someplaces
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more loosey goosey than others when it comes to eating
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sixty million year old fungus that you can pick out
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of a cow patty if you know what you're doing.
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I am very interested in seeing what happens with Oregon.
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My admonition to them would be be as careful as
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you can, and pay attention to safety parameters and keep
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an eye out for ethical improprieties, because that'll bring the
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whole house down. These are such valuable experiences there, the
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gifts of the gods. They come to us from the earth,
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you know, and if use wisely in a proper context,
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with proper oversight and in moderation, not taking that heroic dose.
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Most people, I don't hope people. Most people, whether they
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experience fairly well with a lot of important knowledge and insight.
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It's interesting. If you'd told me when I was in
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high school that there'd be weed stores everywhere and yoga
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moms selling teach Sea tinctures, I would not believe it is.
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So it's interesting to see how much the legalization of
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marijuana in so many states might pave the way. However,
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when is like MRC and fies are going to come
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in and well, in the case of it.
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The problem with marijuana legalizing is we now have to
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also deal with the synthetic cannabinoids we need to deal with.
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It's kind of the free based product wax.
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You know.
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I've seen people get quite psychotic, especially young people who
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were predisposed to manic depressive illness. They would get manic,
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they get psychotic, and it wasn't was smoking just weed
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per se.
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Now, doctor Grobe said, there's also laboratory synthesized cannabinoid spice.
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It's called which seems very on the nose, or there
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are strains treated with a solvent to create a wax,
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and their strength is often vastly underestimated in case you're
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looking to elevate your heart rate or have a massive
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panic attack if you or me. But when it comes
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to psychedelics, So.
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One thing I think that's desperately needed in Colorado and
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Oregon is good public education is going to be open
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to the public. There are going to be a lot
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of people who don't know much of anything about this.
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They need knowledge, they need to be instructed. Ideally, you
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would have legally sanctioned centers to facilitate psychedelic experience in
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the presence of trained and certified facilitators.
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Right. Josie Rutherford and Jasmine Leo wanted to know about
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potential negative effects like remembered trauma falsely or truthfully remembered,
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and Brooklyn Baron, Laura Wood, April Carter, and Julia Lorraine asked,
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in Julia's words, I'm so excited for this, Okay, can
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you ask theologists about the incidents of psychosis induced by
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psilocybin and also if there are ways to prevent it.
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Some folks wanted to know, how would one know before
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if they embark on this, if they would be prone
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to psychosis or prone to.
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Well, are you at high risk?
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Well, you look at your own history, were there any
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preceding episodes where reality testing was in question? Or what
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about your biological family history, your biological genetic history. If
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it's loaded with people with bipolar disorder, there I believe
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is significant risk. Now that they may weather it just fine,
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but they're at higher risk than the next person who
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did not have such a history in his or her family.
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And if you're looking for someone to evaluate if this
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might be a good option for you, how does one
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go about that? Now? Some patrons Jasmine Alexandra and Jelica
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Stanley Eva Jisova and Kate Munker and Wailo asked if
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it's safe to self administer, either unaccompanied or with a
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friendly trip sitter, or are there other researchy means to
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do it allow? I wanted to know where can you
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find a trained medical doctor or clinical trial to join,
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Oh God, or a sitter.
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Yeah, that's a tough one to answer, because I guess
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it's legal now in Oregon as far as I'm aware,
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and it's approaching legality in Colorado. I'm not sure where
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they are with that process. But outside of those two states,
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like you you had to play your luck at knock
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on open, Yeah, you.
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Front meet someone in a parking lot.
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Walk through the woods.
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I saw this great you know Paul Stamitz, the famous
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ethno mycologist. So I'm going to talk on a great
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slide of a rural Oregon police station. And it was
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this expansive front lawn and it was proliferating with with
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with silicide mushrooms. So how did they get there? Whether
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it was it the spirits directing the spores to settle
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down there, or then you have some wise guy kids
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who thought this would be a lot of fun to do.
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Just confiscated mushrooms just for like this is a good
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O's places. And last week we talked about how CIA
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operations to use LSD as a truth serum or in
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warfare disproportionately experimented on people of color, sometimes in cruel
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and inhumane ways. And in the paper Don't Kill My
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buzz Man, explaining the criminalization of psychedelic drugs, political scientist
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Conrad Sprowl of the University of organ explains that in
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nineteen sixty eight, possession of LSD was banned by the
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US federal government. In nineteen seventy there was this Controlled
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Substances Act that classified LSD and other psychedelics as Schedule
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IE drugs, signifying that they had no medical potential and
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the highest possible potential for abuse, and then in nineteen
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seventy one through the un psychedelics were placed in the
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strictest category like above cocaine, alongside heroin. And these bands
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largely arose from this fallout with MK Ultra discussed in
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Part one, and this type of moral panic that was
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counter to the counterculture of the hippie or now boomer
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generation who were not keen to go fight in wars
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they did not agree with. They rebelled against that, and
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then this moral panic began. And Sprowl continues that no
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discussion of drugs in the US can be complete without
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addressing race, which has been entwined with drug rhetoric from
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the beginning. They write, and that the racialization of the
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drug problem and the resultant harmed to communities of color
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has only increased, with non white defendants convicted of drug
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crimes at massively disproportionate rates. Sprowl notes and In case
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you do not live in the United States, let me
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just remind you that our healthcare systems and our prison
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systems are for profit. So it does pay to do drugs,
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but it just pays somebody else.
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Well.
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Mattzicato and Josie Brutherford, Aaron White, Megan Morgan all had questions.
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Douche rooms have to be grown in the wild and
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harvested or can they be farmed as such?
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No, they can be cultivated. In fact, the ones who
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developed the first procedure for this were the McKenna brothers. Yeah,
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back in the early mid seventies, So just.
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A quick side note. Terrence McKenna was this mystic and
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ethroboticist and after trips to the Amazon, stumbling into this
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field of psilocybin mushrooms. He worked with his brother to
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cultivate them using just home DIY equipment, and in nineteen
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seventy six they first published The Magic Mushroom Grower's Guide,
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which was this seminal handbook that changed the accessibility to hallucinogens.
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You could just grow them in the garage, and he
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took a lot of trips. He wrote a lot about
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mind expansion, some theories about time being fractals and the
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world and time ending in twenty twelve. Unfortunately he was
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not here to see that it's pretty much the same
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but worse, as he died of this aggressive rain tumor
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at the turn of the century in two thousand at
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the age of fifty three. But Timothy Leary said that
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he was one of the most important people on the
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planet because of Terence McKenna's work in cultivating them. And
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so I understand that there's like Golden Teacher, and there's penis,
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and even those are like different strains of mushrooms. Do
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any of them have an effect? Some people wanted to know,
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like Megan Morrian wanted to know how are dose is determined.
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Well, you know, you like to take a compound where
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there's some history of people having experience with it. That
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way you can gauge what the proper dose is. If
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it's super potent and will trigger a massive reaction that
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only you know, two grams of mushrooms, you want to
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contain the dosing. On the other hand, if they're old
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and they're kind of stale, yeah, and they've been exposed
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to the elements and they're not as strong, it may
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take you have to be careful about this, but it
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may take a higher dose.
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So if you've ever tried to dive into this world
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and you're like, what's with the golden penis teacher, I'm confused.
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Let's run it down right quick. So there are different
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strains of the same species of psilozepin mushroom, and the
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most common strains are Golden Teacher, which has a slim
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stock and an umbrella cap. It's said to be more gentle,
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kind of a more introspective experience. Penis envy is a
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very long looking shroom. Clearly it has a thick stock
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and a little phallic hat and according to one independent lab,
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the penis envy strain had double the potency of their
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Golden Emperor, which was a derivative of a Golden Teacher.
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So different strains can vary. And for Libytamco, who asked
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to the stocks versus the caps really have a difference
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in potency, I've heard the caps are significantly stronger. The
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research team found that the cap of the Golden Emperor
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mushroom was more potent than the stem, but it was
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the inverse for the penis envy strain that had a
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more powerful shaft. If you will, so tip of the
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cap to them for studying that and how they're cultivated
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can also make a difference, apparently. And there was this
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thing called this Psychedelic Cup competition. It was held last
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fall in Denver, of course, and different species and strains
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were awarded with things like the most enviable or potency,
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and one microbiologist shared the growing hack that water absorbing
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packs kind of like what you find at the bottom
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of like a beef jerky pouch, but bigger can help
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keep mushrooms more potent as water breaks down psilocybin, noting
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that blue streaks on your stocks means psilocybin's breaking down
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and you've kind of already lost it. What so yes?
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First time question asker Renee Wanger, who wanted to know
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is their shelf life and what happens if they go bad?
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How do they go stale?
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Like?
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Because I was I was microdosing with some old ones.
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It didn't feel much. I had a friend, we got
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some We're very well done. I gave a little bit
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to a friend again, please nobody arrest me, and she
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did like a gram and she was like, I was
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like tripping. She's like, I think these are really strong. Right,
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where does the potency go?
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Yeah, what are the conditions out of jag potency? Or
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Dave Nichols, who's kind of this eminent medicinal chemists or
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natural product chemists, maybe the world's leading scientists in this area.
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You know, he talks.
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If you want to keep them fresh, you keep them
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in a dark, cool environment. Oh, so that means if
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you expose them to sunlight, just leave it lying around,
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and it's maybe the climactic conditions are kind of hot
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and humid, it's likely going to lose some of its potency.
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And in a twenty twenty study stability of psilocybin and
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its four analogs and the biomass of the psychotropic mushroom
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Psilicybe cubensis, researchers stashed some shrooms in different conditions and
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found that after a week things were still pretty fresh.
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The changes in concentrations were negligible, but after two months
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and on of storage, nearly all of the alkaloids were reduced,
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and the bags that fared the best were stored in
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the dark at around twenty degrees celsius or room temperature.
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But don't store them too cold, because fresh mushrooms frozen
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to negative eighty degree celsius or negative one ten fahrenheit
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had the highest degree of chemical staleness, if you will. Also,
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I learned in this episode that psilocybin mushrooms have been
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around for about sixty five million years, kind of coinciding
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with the timeline of the great asteroid that killed the
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dinos and the KPg boundary layer and the alkaloids that
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trip us out may have been selected through evolution because
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of insect or gastropod munchers, but evidence on that is debated.
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What is not up for debate is that most people
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don't want a bad trip or a kaleidoscope of brain terror,
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and patron Maria Wanman said that they've heard horror stories
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about getting stuck in a bad trip, and Josie Rutherford, Kanyie,
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Connie Boboni, Tom Brady, and Kevin Wildermouth asked about the
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old set and setting meaning mindset and going into a
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good one and setting as in an environment that feels
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safe and secure, as well as raina'm Beck. At the
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sac seacrast scientists Abby and Maria Wayman. A lot of
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people also wanted to know about set and setting, but
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Raina wanted to know what happens during a bad trip
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or Abby wants to know does a bad first trip
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mean you're doomed to never have a good trip? Like
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what is set? And setting?
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What I teach?
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You know, I'm actually talking on occasion with some of
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the young psychiatrists at UCLA who are very interested in yes,
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and I tell them and I'm actually able to demonstrate
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it once and we did an experimental session with a patient.
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If someone starts to get very anxious, very agitated, and
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somewhat disoriented, like what happened with this a few months
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ago with a subject, the most helpful thing you can
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do you get their attention and you say, I know
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you're having a challenging experience right now, but you need
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to know this is time limited. That if we just
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wait for you know, some minutes or maybe a couple
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of hours, you will return to your normative sense of self.
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Because the scariest thing in a bad trip is oh
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my god, I've done something to myself. I will never
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be myself again, I will never find myself again. So
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it's important to dispel that. So we had this subject
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too was get you know, the model was it was
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open label, so we knew what they were getting. The
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first session, he got ten milligrams, as we.
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Covered in part one, on a big trip is about
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twenty five milligrams of straight synthesized standardized psilocybin in pill form,
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and a microdose, on the other hand, would be maybe
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three grams. So ten milligrams is between a giant and
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a tiny dose.
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This is a depressed patient.
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And a month later he got twenty five. And my
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junior associates were after the first session, which guy did great,
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they said, oh, this is this is a snap, but
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I said, no, wait for session two. Twenty five milligrams
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is going to be far more challenging, and it certainly was,
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and so he stood up. He's looking kind of frantic
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looking around. It looks like he's feeling trapped. And one
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problem was between where he was sitting and the door
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I was sitting, so he would have to go over me.
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I don't know want that to happened, So I figured time.
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For me to talk. So I gave him my wrap
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and it helped. It's gonna be okay.
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You'll see that.
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He calmed down, sat down a couple minutes later, big smile,
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and he said, this is great.
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Yes, I can see so much.
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You know, someone told me before mine. If you start
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to get scared, think of it like a sign to
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go toward that thing.
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Way, Yeah, curious, ask it.
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If you see something scary, like a monster or something,
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ask it, what can I learn?
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What can I be from encountering you? What can you
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tell me? What do I need to know?
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That's what Ralph Metzner used to teach. He was one
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of the most esteemed authorities in this area that I've known.
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He was a great friend. He died in I think
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twenty eighteen or so. He was a master at guiding
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people through these experiences and the way if you got
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into a scary place, don't run away.
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That'll just intensify the fear.
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Head towards it in a calm, deliberate way, and ask
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may I have your attention?
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And what can I learn? What do you have to
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teach me?
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And then it's remarkable what starts to happen.
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Yeah, it's a good allegory for life too. If something
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starts to intimidate you, it's maybe a sign if you're
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scared to do something or anxious about something. Looking at
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that of why am I scared of? This is always
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good now a lot of you shared the question will
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I cease being me in the moment or after? Why
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are they potentially life alterating in beautiful and sometimes dangerous ways,
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with patrons Luke La Femina asking will it actually make
405
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me unsad? And these changes were also on the mines
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of Chelsea Wick, Daniel Apdal, Natalie Roussoud, Maria Zuerrevleva Froudi, Mursam,
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tyson Quist, PAFKA thirty four, Linnen Hung and Carli Delson
408
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along with Jadine Lannon wanders to know what is psychedelic
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induced ego death?
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When people talk about what is that, well, ego is
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our sense of self and on some occasions, particularly early on,
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particularly with the high dose, people feel that their sense
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of self is fragmenting and they lose that sense of
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continuity with who they are and it's felt to be
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an integral part of the death rebirth process.
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And you can see our episodes on panatology and quasi
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thanatology if you have a lot of existential dread around death.
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We also have one on quantum montology with an astrophysicist
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who asks what Israel? And we have a scotohilology one
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with a dark matter expert. All of those really changed
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the way I viewed being alive and being dead, as
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did my trip. But what does a psychedeliologists think of
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these aspects? Kurdish Takahashi asked, is there any evidence of
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hallucinogenic therapy patients discovering connections to a spirit realm and
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bringing back divine messages for the betterment of humanity? Is
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there evidence of that? And Animel and jasmin Ley, they
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both wanted to know a few people asked about dimensions.
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Animel asked, you, mushroom trips open us up to other dimensions?
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What even is objective reality?
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Oh? Well, well, hopefully one question it too much because
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we all have to come back to normative consciousness and function. Yeah,
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so we don't want to get too carried away. And
433
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how strange and unusual this is. But you have a
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little glimmer. You have a period of time, you know,
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maybe some minutes, maybe some hours where you could look
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into the other side, and sometimes astonishing things happen, like
437
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you're approached by a deceased.
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Relative, close relative.
439
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Yeah, maybe one where there was some unfinished business or
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some questions you needed to ask.
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Yeah, has it made you start a question, what is time?
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Is time even linear?
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Like?
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I interviewed a quantum montologist who studies what Israel as
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an astrophysicist, and just about how much we don't know?
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And does your experience of watching other people and having
447
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gone through it yourself, does that make you question how
448
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much we know about reality?
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Well?
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I mean there are some astrophysicists and the like who
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got their insight while along psychedelics. Kerrie Mullis who invented
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these genetic screens.
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Just to side note, Kerry Mulis is a seventy four
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year old biochemist who spent a lot of his undergrad
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hours at Berkeley making LSD in the lab, and he
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said that his trips were more impactful than any coursework
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he'd done. What happened to this guy?
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Oh?
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On LSD he visualized the mechanics of PCR testing and
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later won a Nobel Prize for it. In real life,
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that wasn't a trip.
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A very prominent individual.
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He was on a documentary basically saying I took LSD
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and that's when I saw this happening. Hmm. It's kind
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of like the discover of the Benzene ring, a nineteenth
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century German chemist Keckle who had a dream of a snake,
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and then the snake bites the tail of another snake,
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and they keep biting the tails until it's a six
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sided hexagon.
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Physicist Richard Feynman was also said to dabble. I'm sure
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he was not alone in his field nuts.
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So that's interesting. So the physicists, I think they're very
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engaged with this, and I'm sure some of the more
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prominent physicist had some first hand experience. It's Stephen Hawking.
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I don't know, but you never know. I know that
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Carl Sagan was quite impacted by psychedelics. His best friend
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growing up was Lester Grinspoone, a Harvard psychiatrist who wrote
478
00:26:13.000 --> 00:26:17.119
a great book called Psychedelic Drugs Reconsidered, published in nineteen eighty,
479
00:26:17.200 --> 00:26:20.720
and it was basically a compilation of all the psychedelic
480
00:26:20.799 --> 00:26:24.680
research that occurred up to that point. And Lester told me,
481
00:26:24.839 --> 00:26:27.640
and he also spoke publicly that his good friend Carl
482
00:26:27.720 --> 00:26:30.960
Sagan had had a number of psychedelic experiences which are
483
00:26:31.000 --> 00:26:31.640
of great values.
484
00:26:31.720 --> 00:26:34.279
Now that makes sense, that makes sense, and what if
485
00:26:34.319 --> 00:26:37.119
your brain is already a little different. Lizzy Booth wanted
486
00:26:37.160 --> 00:26:40.240
to know how hallucinogens affect people with ADHD or other
487
00:26:40.480 --> 00:26:45.799
neurodivergent people. Mycologist Tony Wildman peregrine, Ava Haisova, rub eating
488
00:26:45.880 --> 00:26:48.920
dog hair for a Living Kelly McCain and Aaron Donnie
489
00:26:48.960 --> 00:26:51.440
Muller for some question. Asker wanted to know a little
490
00:26:51.480 --> 00:26:54.480
bit as an autistic person. I'm fascinated by how physical
491
00:26:54.519 --> 00:26:57.960
difference in the brain structure, such as reduced neural pruning
492
00:26:58.160 --> 00:27:03.119
manifest and they say if those brain difference produced different
493
00:27:03.160 --> 00:27:07.759
effects and trips. I know you've studied MDMA and autistic people, anything,
494
00:27:08.039 --> 00:27:11.400
anything that you observed doing those studies In terms.
495
00:27:11.240 --> 00:27:14.759
Of well, I think we had some success in treating
496
00:27:14.839 --> 00:27:19.839
their incapacitating social anxiety. These are adults on the autism spectrum,
497
00:27:20.400 --> 00:27:24.720
very bright. A bunch of them had done well academically
498
00:27:25.319 --> 00:27:27.279
through high school and then went off to college and
499
00:27:27.440 --> 00:27:31.519
completely collapse and couldn't handle really the social scenes. Yeah,
500
00:27:31.720 --> 00:27:34.480
the social pressure. So they went home and couldn't get
501
00:27:34.519 --> 00:27:37.279
out of their room. We saw with our patients who
502
00:27:37.400 --> 00:27:41.400
received two experiences that they were able to move beyond
503
00:27:41.440 --> 00:27:44.799
that incapacitating social anxiety and function, get back out in
504
00:27:44.839 --> 00:27:50.039
the world, get degrees, get jobs, It was actually quite impressive,
505
00:27:50.079 --> 00:27:51.839
and I think it really tells us that there's a.
506
00:27:53.440 --> 00:27:55.920
It opened me up to the neurodiversity.
507
00:27:55.200 --> 00:28:00.960
Movement that we shouldn't necessarily pathologize right people with autism,
508
00:28:01.119 --> 00:28:04.359
that they just have a different style of understanding and
509
00:28:04.559 --> 00:28:06.359
of living in the world, and we need to be
510
00:28:07.079 --> 00:28:08.119
we need to learn from that.
511
00:28:08.519 --> 00:28:11.160
Yeah, for sure. Yeah, And for more on this, you
512
00:28:11.200 --> 00:28:14.480
can see his twenty eighteen paper Reduction in Social Anxiety
513
00:28:14.559 --> 00:28:19.119
after MDMA assisted Psychotherapy with autistic Adults, a randomized, double blind,
514
00:28:19.200 --> 00:28:23.119
placebo controlled pilot study which found that participants in the
515
00:28:23.279 --> 00:28:27.279
MDMA group, which was administered twice during two eight hour sessions,
516
00:28:27.720 --> 00:28:31.440
showed a significant improvement on Leebuitz social anxiety scale scores,
517
00:28:31.640 --> 00:28:35.160
and it held up or continued to gradually increase even
518
00:28:35.279 --> 00:28:37.599
six months from the trial. Is there any way to
519
00:28:38.240 --> 00:28:42.720
study if something changes structurally or chemically in people who trip,
520
00:28:42.799 --> 00:28:45.839
Like I imagine putting someone who's tripping on mushrooms in
521
00:28:45.880 --> 00:28:49.480
an fMRI machine would be a little bit challenging.
522
00:28:49.519 --> 00:28:50.880
For that would be very challenging.
523
00:28:50.960 --> 00:28:56.839
There's some scary stories about someone kind of getting very
524
00:28:56.920 --> 00:29:02.319
anxious asking to be removed from the scanner. Then saying
525
00:29:02.359 --> 00:29:04.400
he didn't want to go back in, and getting a
526
00:29:04.480 --> 00:29:07.119
lot of pressure from the investigators that he did need
527
00:29:07.240 --> 00:29:10.000
to go back in because he would hurt science if
528
00:29:10.039 --> 00:29:12.119
he did it, and that that's not the guilt.
529
00:29:12.839 --> 00:29:13.839
Guilt tripped it back in.
530
00:29:14.000 --> 00:29:16.240
But I think that's a very challenging place. You know,
531
00:29:16.319 --> 00:29:20.920
you're you hear that clanking noise, you're you're immobilized pretty much.
532
00:29:21.079 --> 00:29:26.279
It's very claustrophobic. You know, psychedelics can be challenging under
533
00:29:26.319 --> 00:29:28.279
the most optimal condition putting them.
534
00:29:28.160 --> 00:29:31.960
In an MRI scanner. Yeah, it's not an optimal setting.
535
00:29:32.279 --> 00:29:36.640
Terrible. Emily Hebert, Hannah Harram DTL One of One, Caitlin Tindale,
536
00:29:36.720 --> 00:29:39.839
Julia s Trevor Ogborn, Josh Jones, Megan Morgan all had
537
00:29:40.000 --> 00:29:42.960
nausea or why does it affect my guts or body?
538
00:29:43.000 --> 00:29:45.880
In rumbley tumbly ways, Joe Porfido wants to know, not
539
00:29:46.039 --> 00:29:48.640
asking for a friend, but the nausea. I will sometimes
540
00:29:48.720 --> 00:29:51.079
consume with food and I think it helps. And Bethany
541
00:29:51.160 --> 00:29:55.160
b had a culinary query asking can certain foods or
542
00:29:55.240 --> 00:29:58.000
drinks eating them during a prior affect the way the
543
00:29:58.119 --> 00:30:03.359
experience goes. People asked about out why does pelocybin make
544
00:30:03.519 --> 00:30:10.680
people nauseated? And why does acid like something acidic change
545
00:30:11.240 --> 00:30:12.160
how it affects you.
546
00:30:12.359 --> 00:30:16.319
Yeah, yeah, I really haven't observed a lot that much
547
00:30:16.359 --> 00:30:19.880
in the way of GI symptoms people who've taken psilocybin.
548
00:30:19.920 --> 00:30:23.279
I've had subjects tell me that taking the synthetic psilocybin
549
00:30:23.799 --> 00:30:27.440
felt like a cleaner experience, like guess intestinal wise than
550
00:30:27.559 --> 00:30:28.680
eating a mushroom.
551
00:30:28.880 --> 00:30:29.519
Oh interesting.
552
00:30:29.680 --> 00:30:29.880
Yeah.
553
00:30:30.119 --> 00:30:33.440
Where I hear much more about a GI effects is ayahuasca.
554
00:30:34.000 --> 00:30:36.079
Oh God, I have friends that have done that.
555
00:30:36.400 --> 00:30:37.279
That's very challenging.
556
00:30:37.400 --> 00:30:39.920
Yeah, but it's an important part of the process, and
557
00:30:40.000 --> 00:30:42.160
they don't look at it as vomiting, you know, which
558
00:30:42.240 --> 00:30:44.079
is bad. We'd look at it as we're conditioned to
559
00:30:44.119 --> 00:30:45.920
look at it as a bad thing. They look at
560
00:30:45.960 --> 00:30:49.079
it as a purge la perga, you know, where they
561
00:30:49.240 --> 00:30:53.000
will get rid of all the negativity and they visualize
562
00:30:53.039 --> 00:30:56.680
all the negative stuff they're they're getting out of their system.
563
00:30:56.880 --> 00:31:00.279
Yeah. I know someone who facilitates those and she talking
564
00:31:00.279 --> 00:31:02.559
about just like the sweet sound of people barfing into
565
00:31:02.559 --> 00:31:06.960
buckets means that they're like healing, and that's a real reframe.
566
00:31:06.599 --> 00:31:07.359
And that's great.
567
00:31:07.720 --> 00:31:10.160
But then what people need to understand is at a
568
00:31:10.240 --> 00:31:13.920
certain point when you're wretching repeatedly, you've already brought up
569
00:31:13.960 --> 00:31:16.480
everything there is to bring up, but you still have
570
00:31:16.640 --> 00:31:20.160
this wretch reflex. You got to use a little willpower
571
00:31:20.559 --> 00:31:23.920
to stifle it. Yeah, and to just settle back down,
572
00:31:24.039 --> 00:31:27.839
because you know you're on a loop. It's not of
573
00:31:27.960 --> 00:31:31.559
any value to you, and it's disruptive to other people around.
574
00:31:31.759 --> 00:31:31.960
Yeah.
575
00:31:33.000 --> 00:31:35.680
I remember encountering a little bit of nausea, and I
576
00:31:35.720 --> 00:31:38.160
remember having read like just tell yourself, like, it's okay,
577
00:31:38.640 --> 00:31:41.200
it's okay, body, we can keep this in. It's chill,
578
00:31:41.279 --> 00:31:42.519
it's medicine, don't worry about it.
579
00:31:42.759 --> 00:31:45.000
It's okay to let it out too, okay to let
580
00:31:45.079 --> 00:31:45.240
it go.
581
00:31:45.759 --> 00:31:49.119
I wonder too about animals. Francis Hirst, Rudebaker and a
582
00:31:49.160 --> 00:31:51.759
bunch of people Jamie Denny Ryde, the Tiger and Hazel.
583
00:31:51.799 --> 00:31:54.720
First time question asker wanted to know do animals react
584
00:31:54.720 --> 00:31:55.599
to psilocybin?
585
00:31:56.000 --> 00:32:01.200
Well, there's a book in the eighties early nineties by
586
00:32:01.319 --> 00:32:05.279
a UCLA psychologist named Ron Siegel, and that was the
587
00:32:05.359 --> 00:32:08.400
whole premise of the book, which was to make observations
588
00:32:08.759 --> 00:32:13.200
of animals in the wild, you know, accessing psychedelic plants
589
00:32:13.240 --> 00:32:17.440
and then making observations what happens. Siegel was a little controversial,
590
00:32:17.559 --> 00:32:20.720
but I forget the name of the loo up, Yeah, yeah,
591
00:32:20.839 --> 00:32:21.480
Ron Siegel.
592
00:32:22.000 --> 00:32:25.000
That book was called Fire in the Brain, Clinical Tales
593
00:32:25.119 --> 00:32:28.799
of Hallucination. And just as a side note, Ron Siegel
594
00:32:28.920 --> 00:32:31.240
was considered by Oliver Sachs and many others to be
595
00:32:31.519 --> 00:32:35.119
one of the foremost experts on hallucinations, and as a
596
00:32:35.640 --> 00:32:39.319
psychopharmacologist living in la he was a witness in the
597
00:32:39.480 --> 00:32:43.440
trial against actor Robert Blake, who was accused of hiring
598
00:32:43.559 --> 00:32:46.720
someone to kill his wife, and sometime during the testimony,
599
00:32:46.880 --> 00:32:49.960
doctor Siegel discussed the use of drugs on mental states
600
00:32:50.400 --> 00:32:53.039
and casually revealed that he had been able to teach
601
00:32:53.119 --> 00:32:55.839
monkeys to smoke crack cocaine. So I guess brains just
602
00:32:55.880 --> 00:32:58.759
say yum, yum, yum, chemicals wherever you go. But what
603
00:32:59.039 --> 00:33:01.319
other risks are there? And we'll get to that right
604
00:33:01.359 --> 00:33:03.400
after the break. But first, each week we donate to
605
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a cause of the ologists choosing, and this week doctor
606
00:33:05.920 --> 00:33:08.839
Charlie Grove chose Human Rights Watch, which is a nonprofit
607
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608
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who are country experts, lawyers, journalists and others who work
609
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to protect the most at risk from vulnerable minorities and
610
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civilians in wartime to refugees and children in need. So
611
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that is Human Rights Watch and a donation was made
612
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possible by sponsors. Apologies get value.
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621
00:33:55.519 --> 00:33:58.400
Every little helps available to most doores, prices very in express.
622
00:33:59.240 --> 00:34:02.359
Okay, back to your questions about risks. This one was
623
00:34:02.400 --> 00:34:06.680
asked by Jocelyn Vincent, Kathleen Carson, Rube, Ashley Adair, Devin
624
00:34:06.799 --> 00:34:10.159
Naples and Aaron Wilgemouth. So let's take a lesson. Una
625
00:34:10.559 --> 00:34:14.199
Trevanovic wants to know, what are the risks associated? Like,
626
00:34:14.559 --> 00:34:17.679
is my producing safe for the brain? Like any I
627
00:34:17.760 --> 00:34:20.000
think people who are interested in this are like, what's
628
00:34:20.039 --> 00:34:20.719
the worst.
629
00:34:20.480 --> 00:34:21.039
That could happen?
630
00:34:24.239 --> 00:34:26.320
Well, I think it's good to approach this with a
631
00:34:26.360 --> 00:34:29.599
fair degree of caution, and we don't. We're still trying
632
00:34:29.639 --> 00:34:32.320
to learn about it, you know. So the worst that
633
00:34:32.360 --> 00:34:37.559
could happen is somebody getting disoriented, losing their sense of
634
00:34:37.639 --> 00:34:41.599
calm and containment, running out of the building into the street.
635
00:34:41.639 --> 00:34:44.920
I was consulted on a case at a big East
636
00:34:45.000 --> 00:34:49.960
Coast university where a young guy I think he was nineteen,
637
00:34:50.000 --> 00:34:53.039
who would never evidently never taken a psychedelic and no
638
00:34:53.239 --> 00:34:56.239
psych history, got a hold of some mushrooms and on
639
00:34:56.360 --> 00:35:00.480
an impulse, took a substantial dose. He then went walking
640
00:35:00.599 --> 00:35:07.119
around the very crowded streets, crowded with people, really loud,
641
00:35:07.280 --> 00:35:11.000
lot of noise and construction going on, and just total
642
00:35:11.119 --> 00:35:13.840
hell be out there. And he had some friends with
643
00:35:13.920 --> 00:35:15.639
him who didn't really know what he was doing.
644
00:35:16.119 --> 00:35:19.239
Just jumping in with a trigger warning slash spoiler alert
645
00:35:19.440 --> 00:35:22.440
about a two thousand and three self harm incident that
646
00:35:22.599 --> 00:35:25.440
was later ruled by medical examiners to be an accident
647
00:35:25.519 --> 00:35:26.480
and not a suicide.
648
00:35:26.880 --> 00:35:29.519
So then he ended up going into the student library
649
00:35:29.840 --> 00:35:33.719
where a week before, another kid had gone up to
650
00:35:33.800 --> 00:35:36.039
a high floor and had jumped to his death. This
651
00:35:36.239 --> 00:35:39.079
kid didn't know the other one, but he knew the story,
652
00:35:39.519 --> 00:35:42.280
and he went into the elevator. His friends followed. He
653
00:35:42.360 --> 00:35:45.400
went up to the tenth floor, and he walked over
654
00:35:45.480 --> 00:35:47.039
to the railing and looked over it, and then his
655
00:35:47.119 --> 00:35:50.039
friends were getting very anxious, so they dragged him back,
656
00:35:50.519 --> 00:35:52.679
dragging him back to the elevator, but he broke free,
657
00:35:53.039 --> 00:35:55.800
and he just vaulted right over the railing and took
658
00:35:55.840 --> 00:35:57.920
a ten story dive.
659
00:35:58.440 --> 00:36:01.199
Oh gosh, that's the worst thing could happen, terribly?
660
00:36:01.519 --> 00:36:03.679
Is that a like evidence of psychosis?
661
00:36:03.760 --> 00:36:03.880
Is that?
662
00:36:03.960 --> 00:36:06.840
Do you think that's why he got disoriented? He got disoriented,
663
00:36:06.960 --> 00:36:09.960
he got very anxious, he lost his sense of self. Yeah,
664
00:36:10.280 --> 00:36:12.880
but you know, psychosis. It could have been a transient
665
00:36:12.920 --> 00:36:17.960
psychosis' reality testing was disturbed. But chances are if he
666
00:36:18.039 --> 00:36:20.320
had been in a setting where people knew what he
667
00:36:20.440 --> 00:36:22.960
was doing and they could contain him, that he could
668
00:36:23.000 --> 00:36:25.639
have gotten through that pretty quickly. Yeah, gotten to the
669
00:36:25.719 --> 00:36:28.960
other side and been calm and contained and not put
670
00:36:29.039 --> 00:36:31.599
himself in any seriously dangerous situation.
671
00:36:31.800 --> 00:36:35.360
Yeah, yeah, the trip sitting important there.
672
00:36:35.559 --> 00:36:38.559
Yeah, Yeah, that's an important role. There's a lot of responsibility.
673
00:36:38.760 --> 00:36:38.960
Yeah.
674
00:36:39.440 --> 00:36:42.280
For a seventy nine page guide on how to conduct
675
00:36:42.320 --> 00:36:45.400
a trip like the research psychiatrist do see the Yale
676
00:36:45.480 --> 00:36:49.679
Manual for Psilocybin assisted Therapy of Depression, which notes that
677
00:36:50.000 --> 00:36:55.000
beforehand the session preparation checklist is room decor like arts
678
00:36:55.039 --> 00:36:58.840
and plants and flowers, sheets, blanket pillow. They note it's
679
00:36:58.880 --> 00:37:02.639
good to have a water resistant sheet below cotton sheets
680
00:37:02.679 --> 00:37:05.239
in case of incontinence. It's also good to have a
681
00:37:05.320 --> 00:37:09.679
barf bucket, which they call an msspasin. They also recommend
682
00:37:09.840 --> 00:37:13.960
standard music system, ambient speakers, eye shades, having some lamps,
683
00:37:14.199 --> 00:37:17.519
some comfortable lighting, maybe throwing some art materials, and they
684
00:37:17.599 --> 00:37:21.079
also have rescue medications on hand, which can be anti
685
00:37:21.159 --> 00:37:24.039
anxiety drugs in case someone starts to freak out. Now.
686
00:37:24.159 --> 00:37:26.599
It also notes that the researchers and nursing staff greet
687
00:37:26.639 --> 00:37:30.519
the participant. They give standard medical and psychiatric assessments. They
688
00:37:30.599 --> 00:37:34.480
check the blood pressure and pulse. They evaluate the participant
689
00:37:34.559 --> 00:37:39.159
for suicidality. They conduct a urine toxicology and if appropriate,
690
00:37:39.199 --> 00:37:42.079
a pregnancy test and they ask the participant about any
691
00:37:42.199 --> 00:37:45.840
changes in their medications. Also, headphones or a speaker and
692
00:37:45.920 --> 00:37:50.519
an imask highly recommended. And to keep your thoughts moving,
693
00:37:50.800 --> 00:37:54.079
there's this five and a half hour Spotify playlist titled
694
00:37:54.159 --> 00:37:58.079
Imperial College of London Psilocybin Clinical Trial Playlist that I
695
00:37:58.239 --> 00:38:02.119
hear is very handy. Well one and only already Schmitz
696
00:38:02.199 --> 00:38:04.000
wants to know is it true that vitamin C he
697
00:38:04.119 --> 00:38:06.760
potentiates psilocybin's hallucinogenic effects?
698
00:38:08.480 --> 00:38:11.800
Not that I've ever I've never seen anything convincing on that.
699
00:38:11.960 --> 00:38:14.360
I know. There's anecdotal accounts.
700
00:38:14.159 --> 00:38:16.920
Yeah, but nothing that it's like definitely doing well.
701
00:38:17.159 --> 00:38:20.960
There was interest in some vitamin B early on in
702
00:38:21.039 --> 00:38:26.559
the fifties. They thought maybe some vitamin bees were metabolites
703
00:38:26.719 --> 00:38:28.000
or had some kind of role in this.
704
00:38:28.440 --> 00:38:30.880
Humphrey Osmond was looking ato that, but nothing ever came
705
00:38:30.960 --> 00:38:31.119
of it.
706
00:38:32.000 --> 00:38:35.639
I understand that for placebo they'll administer niosin and people
707
00:38:35.679 --> 00:38:36.239
get nios in.
708
00:38:36.320 --> 00:38:38.760
Well that's a bit a B vitamin. Yeah, yeah, we
709
00:38:38.880 --> 00:38:41.519
did that as a placiba. I won't do it again.
710
00:38:41.679 --> 00:38:45.639
Are really worse side effects? Were both niasin reactions?
711
00:38:45.800 --> 00:38:47.800
Were they really? They were well?
712
00:38:47.800 --> 00:38:51.840
They're very sensitive, they're very fair complexion. They got bright red,
713
00:38:52.000 --> 00:38:55.039
face got real red, and they started itching all over. Yeah,
714
00:38:55.079 --> 00:38:57.519
it lasted for thirty forty miserable minutes.
715
00:38:58.000 --> 00:39:01.000
Now, Nysin is a b vitamin B three, and if
716
00:39:01.079 --> 00:39:04.800
taken in high concentrations, like over fifty milligrams, the small
717
00:39:04.800 --> 00:39:08.679
blood vessels of the skin can dilate and lead to hot, itchy, red,
718
00:39:09.199 --> 00:39:12.639
sweaty skin, and a feeling like ants are in your arms.
719
00:39:12.840 --> 00:39:15.239
According to one lady who drank a five hour energy
720
00:39:15.320 --> 00:39:17.559
drink during a college road trip and thought that she
721
00:39:17.800 --> 00:39:19.199
was dying, it's not subtle.
722
00:39:19.679 --> 00:39:21.719
We knew they were on placebo. It broke the blind.
723
00:39:23.119 --> 00:39:25.840
It wasn't an ideal placebo. I thought I needed a
724
00:39:25.880 --> 00:39:29.920
placebo condition, and there really isn't a good placebo condition. Yeah,
725
00:39:29.960 --> 00:39:33.320
Hopkins group likes to take very tiny dosages of the
726
00:39:33.599 --> 00:39:37.920
experimental medicine. But if there is anything too microdosing, then
727
00:39:38.559 --> 00:39:42.280
there might be somewhat of a therapeutic effect. Even taking
728
00:39:42.360 --> 00:39:45.639
a tiny dose as a placebo, I thought that was
729
00:39:45.840 --> 00:39:47.599
kind of confusing the situation.
730
00:39:47.840 --> 00:39:49.800
Yeah. No, we use cornstarch.
731
00:39:49.880 --> 00:39:53.360
It's my favorite smart Although I'm doing something very different
732
00:39:53.400 --> 00:39:56.440
from my new study which is a multi site study
733
00:39:56.559 --> 00:39:59.599
and I'm putting together with some colleagues where we're going
734
00:39:59.679 --> 00:40:02.159
to treat people approaching the end of life in the
735
00:40:02.239 --> 00:40:08.079
palliative setting who are overwhelmed with demoralization. Demoralization is the
736
00:40:08.599 --> 00:40:09.400
target symptom.
737
00:40:09.760 --> 00:40:10.840
And what does that mean exactly?
738
00:40:11.039 --> 00:40:16.760
Just you've lost all sense of purpose, meaning has dissipated.
739
00:40:17.239 --> 00:40:21.239
You're in a terrible, unsolvable existential crisis.
740
00:40:22.960 --> 00:40:26.480
I mean, I feel like I became way less afraid
741
00:40:26.519 --> 00:40:29.320
of death after I think that, I was just like, Okay, well,
742
00:40:29.480 --> 00:40:30.719
it's cool, I'll be fine.
743
00:40:31.920 --> 00:40:35.920
There's a long tradition amongst indigenous people where these plant
744
00:40:36.000 --> 00:40:41.480
compounds are administered to initiates to really explore different realms
745
00:40:41.519 --> 00:40:46.599
of consciousness, including you know, dying and envisioning or visioning
746
00:40:46.960 --> 00:40:50.360
people you've known, either yourself or you know through legend
747
00:40:50.480 --> 00:40:53.599
or myth envisioning that well.
748
00:40:53.960 --> 00:40:55.880
A lot of people wanted to know about the stoned
749
00:40:55.920 --> 00:40:59.559
ape theory, patrons and human apes. Nick and Melanie's on
750
00:40:59.679 --> 00:41:02.400
for so Questionsker who asked, I'm curious what your thoughts
751
00:41:02.400 --> 00:41:06.039
are about the stoned ape hypothesis. Is there any legitimacy
752
00:41:06.199 --> 00:41:09.199
to the hypothesis or is it all bunk. Does it
753
00:41:09.280 --> 00:41:11.760
have any truth to it? Is it bogus that.
754
00:41:11.880 --> 00:41:17.119
The apes in the wetlands were munching on mushrooms and
755
00:41:17.199 --> 00:41:20.119
they became so inspired with their experience that they had
756
00:41:20.199 --> 00:41:23.840
to convey it in some manner to another ape and
757
00:41:24.079 --> 00:41:25.400
thus began.
758
00:41:28.039 --> 00:41:30.960
Yeah, that's a great theory. I don't think there's much proof.
759
00:41:31.320 --> 00:41:33.519
And also we should clarify that that's not a theory
760
00:41:33.639 --> 00:41:37.400
but rather a hypothesis by Terrence McKenna that language developed
761
00:41:37.480 --> 00:41:40.719
relatively quickly in humans because of enhancements to the linguistic
762
00:41:40.760 --> 00:41:44.440
centers in the brain from magic mushrooms and plant hallucinagens.
763
00:41:44.760 --> 00:41:48.599
But most scientists are like a little like they don't
764
00:41:48.599 --> 00:41:51.519
give it too much credence. Even some of doctor Grobe's
765
00:41:51.599 --> 00:41:54.800
own work is cited in essays attempted to offer proof,
766
00:41:55.280 --> 00:41:58.280
like this recent Psychology Today article that noted doctor Charles
767
00:41:58.360 --> 00:42:00.400
grow with the University of California lost in Lists and
768
00:42:00.519 --> 00:42:03.719
colleagues conducted to study in the early nineteen nineties exploring
769
00:42:03.760 --> 00:42:06.880
the effects of regular ayahuasca use in Brazil. They found
770
00:42:06.920 --> 00:42:11.760
that individuals who drank ayahuasca regularly scored higher on neuropsychological
771
00:42:11.880 --> 00:42:14.840
tests than controls. Who did not drink the sprew. But
772
00:42:15.000 --> 00:42:17.880
even the guy quoted in that article, Charlie or Pal
773
00:42:18.039 --> 00:42:22.360
Charlie Grob isntconvinced. Needs better evidence. What about neurological diseases
774
00:42:22.440 --> 00:42:25.719
like Alzheimer's Parkinson's, Katie Oldman wanted to know about interesting
775
00:42:25.760 --> 00:42:27.239
research on psilocybin and MS.
776
00:42:27.679 --> 00:42:29.239
Well, this is not being explored.
777
00:42:29.320 --> 00:42:33.039
I know a study looking at depression and people with Parkinson's,
778
00:42:33.719 --> 00:42:37.719
same with MS. And also, you know it's funny. Years ago,
779
00:42:38.000 --> 00:42:42.159
particularly regarding MDMA, we get into these endless debates about
780
00:42:42.159 --> 00:42:45.199
whether or not MDMA was neurotoxic, and I would argue
781
00:42:45.280 --> 00:42:48.599
strenuously that that was not the case. But now we're
782
00:42:48.639 --> 00:42:54.400
getting data that would indicate that psychedelics have neuroplastic effects. Really,
783
00:42:54.639 --> 00:42:59.039
so what are the implications there to people with neurologic disease?
784
00:42:59.599 --> 00:43:01.000
And for more on this, you can see the twenty
785
00:43:01.079 --> 00:43:04.519
twenty two study from Psychiatry to Neurology Psychedelics as a
786
00:43:04.599 --> 00:43:09.559
Prospective Therapeutics for Neurodegenerative disorders, which notes optimistically that recent
787
00:43:09.639 --> 00:43:15.119
studies with rodents revealed that psychedelics like psilocybins therapeutic effects
788
00:43:15.400 --> 00:43:19.280
might extend beyond treating major depressive disorder and substance use disorder.
789
00:43:19.400 --> 00:43:22.800
For example, they write, psychedelics may have efficacy in the
790
00:43:22.880 --> 00:43:27.719
treatment and prevention of brain injury and neurodegenerative diseases such
791
00:43:27.760 --> 00:43:33.960
as Alzheimer's. Now preclinical work shows the ability to induce neuroplasticity,
792
00:43:34.039 --> 00:43:38.519
so changing in the brain and synaptogenesis that deals with synapses,
793
00:43:38.880 --> 00:43:43.920
and psychedelics may also act as immunomodulators by reducing these
794
00:43:44.039 --> 00:43:49.679
levels of pro inflammatory markers, so neuroplasticity helping those synapses
795
00:43:50.000 --> 00:43:54.760
reducing inflammation. Current and future psychedeliologists no pressure, but we're
796
00:43:54.800 --> 00:43:57.880
all counting on you if you can fit in your schedule.
797
00:43:58.079 --> 00:44:01.199
Speaking of schedules, Sonia Bird, how do I figure out
798
00:44:01.239 --> 00:44:05.239
the right microdosing? And other microdosing questions came from Brooklyn Baron,
799
00:44:05.320 --> 00:44:10.360
Jasmine Alexandra Kaikishimoto, Christopher Blubaugh, vincent Pick, Jones Or Spence Felix,
800
00:44:10.480 --> 00:44:13.119
Kelly McCain, and Kevin Krost. What about when it comes
801
00:44:13.159 --> 00:44:14.920
to micro dosing, if people are like, I'm going to
802
00:44:14.960 --> 00:44:16.880
try it, I'm gonna do it anyway to the on
803
00:44:17.199 --> 00:44:20.159
or off. Like Marco Centura wanted to know once every
804
00:44:20.239 --> 00:44:21.000
two days.
805
00:44:20.880 --> 00:44:24.239
Like I've heard different regimens. I've heard like once every
806
00:44:24.320 --> 00:44:25.239
four days.
807
00:44:25.280 --> 00:44:26.880
Does it just last in your system for a couple
808
00:44:26.880 --> 00:44:27.360
of days.
809
00:44:27.239 --> 00:44:30.960
Or yeah, if you look at blood measures it'll clear.
810
00:44:31.119 --> 00:44:35.920
But there's some experiential component than in all likelihood persists,
811
00:44:36.639 --> 00:44:38.840
and it's to build up a set every four days,
812
00:44:38.880 --> 00:44:41.360
build up at kind of a steady state level, and
813
00:44:41.480 --> 00:44:44.599
see if that has any therapeutic components. But again I'm
814
00:44:44.639 --> 00:44:46.400
waiting for the research to come out on this.
815
00:44:47.639 --> 00:44:50.119
Get we need more micro psychopharmacologists.
816
00:44:50.159 --> 00:44:50.360
Yeah.
817
00:44:50.599 --> 00:44:52.159
Right, that's like the bottom line.
818
00:44:52.320 --> 00:44:52.679
There you go.
819
00:44:52.880 --> 00:44:55.880
Several people wanted to know when it comes to becoming
820
00:44:56.480 --> 00:44:59.280
a researcher in this field, right, where do you see
821
00:44:59.320 --> 00:45:01.800
it going? Like legality wise, Well.
822
00:45:01.719 --> 00:45:04.079
I'll tell you what my father told me. I tell you,
823
00:45:04.119 --> 00:45:06.880
I'll tell you again. He said, son, you need to
824
00:45:06.920 --> 00:45:09.440
get credentials. No one will listen to U because you
825
00:45:09.519 --> 00:45:13.400
get credentials. And for me, being his son, there was
826
00:45:13.480 --> 00:45:15.360
only one credential he was returning to.
827
00:45:15.920 --> 00:45:17.639
I had to go to medical school, which.
828
00:45:17.440 --> 00:45:20.719
I was avoiding, but then realized I had a greater
829
00:45:20.840 --> 00:45:23.320
goal to pursue and I went for it.
830
00:45:23.719 --> 00:45:25.760
Did you ever ask the mushrooms like should I become
831
00:45:25.800 --> 00:45:26.440
a doctor or what.
832
00:45:26.719 --> 00:45:30.800
Man. Oh, back in those days, it was a long interlude. Yeah,
833
00:45:31.639 --> 00:45:33.559
it was not the time, not the place, set and
834
00:45:33.679 --> 00:45:37.519
setting were not optimal. So I just read, I just read. Yeah,
835
00:45:37.800 --> 00:45:41.800
I knew that it was a fascinating area. I's some
836
00:45:41.920 --> 00:45:44.880
limited experience in the late sixties in college, but then
837
00:45:44.960 --> 00:45:47.760
not again for another twenty years. But I read everything
838
00:45:47.880 --> 00:45:51.079
I could, and then twenty years on I had a
839
00:45:51.119 --> 00:45:54.280
lot of opportunity to see for myself, and those are
840
00:45:54.400 --> 00:45:57.480
very viable. That being said, I haven't done anything since,
841
00:45:58.320 --> 00:46:02.159
you know, six years or so. Yeah, I don't feel
842
00:46:02.199 --> 00:46:05.000
called to it. It's a calling people feel called, not
843
00:46:05.119 --> 00:46:06.760
by their friends saying don't be.
844
00:46:06.840 --> 00:46:09.800
A will Smith. You know, it's a calling.
845
00:46:09.880 --> 00:46:14.960
You feel an instinctive cathexist to some greater force in
846
00:46:15.079 --> 00:46:17.559
nature or the spirit, realm, or whatever you want to
847
00:46:17.599 --> 00:46:22.519
call it, that here's this potentially remarkable experience, and you
848
00:46:23.119 --> 00:46:25.960
are lucky enough to live in a time and place
849
00:46:26.039 --> 00:46:30.920
where you actually have access. And your predecessors, your ancestors
850
00:46:31.920 --> 00:46:34.920
for centuries, didn't have a clue that these compounds even
851
00:46:35.000 --> 00:46:39.000
existed because they were underground, They were totally secret, and
852
00:46:39.119 --> 00:46:42.320
people who practice using them were condemned with the harshest
853
00:46:42.360 --> 00:46:45.239
punishments of the inquisition. They would try to wipe out
854
00:46:45.239 --> 00:46:48.280
the indigenous people in South and Central America. And about
855
00:46:48.320 --> 00:46:51.719
the midwives in Europe, in Western Europe, Eastern Europe, who
856
00:46:51.800 --> 00:46:56.599
knew about plants, medicinal plants. The images of the witches
857
00:46:56.719 --> 00:46:57.960
flying on their broomstack?
858
00:46:58.639 --> 00:47:00.159
Do you know what that's do?
859
00:47:00.280 --> 00:47:03.079
They we had a witch episode recently, but rubbing balm
860
00:47:03.159 --> 00:47:04.440
on the broomstick.
861
00:47:04.079 --> 00:47:09.719
And then inserting it, yeah, yeah, flying high, flying high. Yeah.
862
00:47:09.760 --> 00:47:14.360
But the authorities, all men, the church authorities and secular
863
00:47:14.360 --> 00:47:15.880
authorities were horrified by this.
864
00:47:16.440 --> 00:47:18.920
For more on indigenous perspectives on this, you can see
865
00:47:18.960 --> 00:47:22.800
the ethno Ecology episode and the witch Ology episode on
866
00:47:23.079 --> 00:47:26.280
Indigenous beliefs and the culture of witches and spells.
867
00:47:26.760 --> 00:47:29.000
And they murdered millions.
868
00:47:29.199 --> 00:47:33.639
This is in the millions, mostly women, mostly plant healers,
869
00:47:34.639 --> 00:47:35.280
the midwives.
870
00:47:35.840 --> 00:47:37.599
Is that the hardest thing about what you do is
871
00:47:38.079 --> 00:47:44.679
getting over really conservative views or fears or institutions that
872
00:47:44.840 --> 00:47:47.360
want to kind of stifle the research.
873
00:47:47.679 --> 00:47:48.639
I haven't run into that.
874
00:47:48.880 --> 00:47:49.159
I know.
875
00:47:49.239 --> 00:47:49.760
It's funny.
876
00:47:50.559 --> 00:47:54.880
For years I was cautioned to keep my interest in myself,
877
00:47:55.199 --> 00:47:57.119
and then I was at John Hopkins for many years,
878
00:47:57.559 --> 00:47:59.920
and the chairman there didn't want to hear anything about it.
879
00:48:00.199 --> 00:48:02.840
So I kept my interest in myself. You know, every
880
00:48:02.960 --> 00:48:06.880
month I go to the medical library look at Index Medicus,
881
00:48:07.000 --> 00:48:10.239
what was new with psychedelics, hallucinogens or surgic you know,
882
00:48:10.480 --> 00:48:12.719
just to try to keep up that way. But it
883
00:48:12.880 --> 00:48:15.159
was seen as a career killer. This would be back
884
00:48:15.199 --> 00:48:18.280
in the seventies eighties. In the late seventies, we were
885
00:48:18.280 --> 00:48:20.960
all asked to present the research paper to our medical
886
00:48:21.000 --> 00:48:23.760
school class. So I found a paper of stan Groffs
887
00:48:23.800 --> 00:48:26.840
where he treated terminal cancer patients with anxiety and depression
888
00:48:27.079 --> 00:48:31.400
with LSD and DPT and had phenomenal outcomes, remarkable, one
889
00:48:31.440 --> 00:48:33.800
of the most moving papers I'd ever had ever read
890
00:48:33.880 --> 00:48:36.239
in the medical literature. So I chose that one. I
891
00:48:36.440 --> 00:48:38.800
distilled it down and I put together my talk. I
892
00:48:38.840 --> 00:48:40.639
thought I had a great talk. It was excinct at
893
00:48:40.719 --> 00:48:44.679
a point, it was fascinating, and I'm really excited looking
894
00:48:44.719 --> 00:48:48.760
forward to what are my classmates and what the professors what, well,
895
00:48:48.800 --> 00:48:49.800
how are they going to react to this?
896
00:48:49.920 --> 00:48:50.679
What are they going to say?
897
00:48:50.719 --> 00:48:53.119
What comments will they have, what questions will they ask?
898
00:48:55.039 --> 00:48:55.519
Against?
899
00:48:56.239 --> 00:48:56.559
Nothing?
900
00:48:57.000 --> 00:49:00.239
Complete silence, And then I realized, oh my, I'm not
901
00:49:00.320 --> 00:49:03.880
supposed to talk about this. So it really wasn't until
902
00:49:03.920 --> 00:49:06.400
I left Hopkins in the late eighties and came out
903
00:49:06.440 --> 00:49:11.559
to California and met some like minded psychiatrists, and.
904
00:49:11.760 --> 00:49:15.880
Like any researcher, having colleagues or a network of friends
905
00:49:16.000 --> 00:49:18.480
in the field can help the cause move along faster
906
00:49:18.599 --> 00:49:21.440
and smoother. I did an episode with James Burke of
907
00:49:21.480 --> 00:49:24.119
the British series Connections, and he told me in that
908
00:49:24.400 --> 00:49:26.039
some really great advice I think of all the time.
909
00:49:26.360 --> 00:49:28.320
One plus one equals three.
910
00:49:28.639 --> 00:49:28.800
Two.
911
00:49:28.840 --> 00:49:31.599
People can create things greater than the sum of their parts.
912
00:49:31.880 --> 00:49:34.000
It's bad math, it's a great philosophy.
913
00:49:34.320 --> 00:49:37.719
Marlene Duris, who was an anthropologist, you know, who really
914
00:49:37.880 --> 00:49:41.719
kind of helped me realize that it was still possible,
915
00:49:41.800 --> 00:49:44.840
even though decades had passed since I had my vision,
916
00:49:44.960 --> 00:49:47.519
I had my plan, and nothing could ever come of
917
00:49:47.599 --> 00:49:50.880
it because it wasn't the right time. By the early nineties,
918
00:49:50.920 --> 00:49:53.000
it was the right time. You had Rick Strausman and
919
00:49:53.480 --> 00:49:57.000
Universe in Mexico got permission in ninety one to study
920
00:49:57.199 --> 00:50:01.760
intravenous DMT. I got permission and two to study MDMA
921
00:50:01.840 --> 00:50:04.320
and normal volunteers, and then Debrimash and New Yors of
922
00:50:04.360 --> 00:50:07.119
Miami got permission the following year to study people on
923
00:50:07.239 --> 00:50:07.760
IBY game.
924
00:50:08.719 --> 00:50:10.559
That was the first opening.
925
00:50:11.199 --> 00:50:14.960
And then Francisco Morano at Arizona in the early two
926
00:50:15.000 --> 00:50:18.800
thousands did a very nice proof of concepts study using
927
00:50:19.280 --> 00:50:23.039
psilocybin for people with refractory OCD oh wow. And then
928
00:50:23.159 --> 00:50:26.920
Roland in Baltimore did a study looking at the degree
929
00:50:27.000 --> 00:50:31.639
to which psilocybin may facilitate a powerful altered state of consciousness,
930
00:50:31.719 --> 00:50:36.599
of powerful transcendent state, mystical state, which were according to
931
00:50:36.679 --> 00:50:38.760
the literature going back to the fifties and then into
932
00:50:38.800 --> 00:50:41.719
the sixties, that having a mystical experience or having a
933
00:50:41.800 --> 00:50:48.119
powerful transcendent or transpersonal experience would make it more likely
934
00:50:48.239 --> 00:50:53.239
that individual would have a very positive, longstanding therapeutic outcome.
935
00:50:53.840 --> 00:50:57.320
And I'm glad that that hasn't been that huge of
936
00:50:57.400 --> 00:50:59.719
a challenge for you career wise. Do you have any
937
00:51:00.320 --> 00:51:02.199
about the job? Do do you have anything?
938
00:51:02.280 --> 00:51:03.280
Is there something that sucks?
939
00:51:03.480 --> 00:51:03.599
Oh?
940
00:51:03.920 --> 00:51:06.760
Well, I have a straight job. I'm a mainstream psychiatrist.
941
00:51:06.800 --> 00:51:10.400
I'm the director of a large division of child lesson psychiatry.
942
00:51:10.480 --> 00:51:12.880
We have a lot of trainees. I really like kids,
943
00:51:12.920 --> 00:51:14.519
I was the oldest in a big family, so I
944
00:51:14.599 --> 00:51:17.360
grew up around kids. It was always fun, so it
945
00:51:17.519 --> 00:51:21.039
was a natural fit for me. And meanwhile, you know,
946
00:51:21.559 --> 00:51:24.519
really it was when I got to Harbor Harbor, UCLA
947
00:51:24.559 --> 00:51:27.920
in ninety three that I was really able to move
948
00:51:28.000 --> 00:51:31.079
forward with the MDMA study, the ayahuasca study.
949
00:51:31.480 --> 00:51:32.320
The next decade.
950
00:51:32.360 --> 00:51:35.000
It was a psilocybin end of life study, and now
951
00:51:35.039 --> 00:51:38.199
we hope to have another multi size psilocybin study.
952
00:51:38.360 --> 00:51:40.800
Yeah. Is there anything that's that's the hardest part of
953
00:51:40.880 --> 00:51:41.199
your job?
954
00:51:41.840 --> 00:51:42.440
My commute?
955
00:51:42.559 --> 00:51:45.440
Your commute. I was going to ask, well, what I found.
956
00:51:45.559 --> 00:51:49.159
I really it's imperative that I have people who have
957
00:51:49.239 --> 00:51:51.440
got a lot of energy and are very well organized,
958
00:51:51.440 --> 00:51:53.880
because I'm I'm a bit all over the place, so
959
00:51:54.239 --> 00:51:56.719
I need people to keep me on on track. And
960
00:51:56.800 --> 00:51:59.039
I had a wonderful resident who just moved back to
961
00:51:59.079 --> 00:52:01.519
the East Coast, and I need to find someone who
962
00:52:01.559 --> 00:52:02.440
could take her place.
963
00:52:02.639 --> 00:52:05.320
Yeah, yeah, maybe you'll get some emails out of this.
964
00:52:05.480 --> 00:52:05.639
Yeah.
965
00:52:07.039 --> 00:52:08.480
What about your favorite thing about what you do?
966
00:52:08.840 --> 00:52:11.000
Oh, it's living the dream.
967
00:52:11.119 --> 00:52:11.280
You know.
968
00:52:11.440 --> 00:52:14.079
I always dreamed of doing this, and here I had
969
00:52:14.119 --> 00:52:17.679
these remarkable opportunities. They just they just fell to me,
970
00:52:18.000 --> 00:52:22.119
and I'm very grateful that, you know, the universe has
971
00:52:22.519 --> 00:52:25.599
been so kind to me, and I'm really excited about
972
00:52:25.639 --> 00:52:30.360
the capacity these compounds have to have a therapeutic impact
973
00:52:30.440 --> 00:52:34.199
on people whose conditions do not normally lend themselves to
974
00:52:35.079 --> 00:52:37.719
positive effects from standard conventional treatments.
975
00:52:37.880 --> 00:52:38.159
M H.
976
00:52:38.920 --> 00:52:41.000
And I love also that there's a seven hundred page
977
00:52:41.039 --> 00:52:43.719
textbook that people can find if they want to know
978
00:52:44.119 --> 00:52:46.639
the compendium of like vetted information.
979
00:52:46.280 --> 00:52:49.320
In my book. Yeah, Jim Grigsby of Colorado, we co
980
00:52:49.559 --> 00:52:50.280
edited a book.
981
00:52:50.159 --> 00:52:50.880
Which is amazing.
982
00:52:51.039 --> 00:52:51.239
Yeah.
983
00:52:51.559 --> 00:52:53.760
Yeah, because there is research out there that I'm sure
984
00:52:53.800 --> 00:52:54.559
people want to know.
985
00:52:54.760 --> 00:52:58.000
That book has everything. Yeah, published by Gilford Press.
986
00:52:58.280 --> 00:53:01.760
Got it. We'll link it everywhere. This has just been
987
00:53:02.320 --> 00:53:04.440
such a dream of mine. I've wanted to interview you
988
00:53:04.559 --> 00:53:08.199
for so long, since before I even tripped out myself.
989
00:53:08.320 --> 00:53:10.800
So this has really been an exciting episode.
990
00:53:10.880 --> 00:53:14.199
I enjoyed talking with you and maybe we'll meet again, Yeah.
991
00:53:14.000 --> 00:53:16.440
I hope. So.
992
00:53:16.719 --> 00:53:20.559
Ask tremendous experts, trippy questions and for more on doctor
993
00:53:20.639 --> 00:53:24.880
Charlie Grove's work in books, including his Handbook of Medical Hallucinogens.
994
00:53:25.239 --> 00:53:27.280
You can see the links in the show notes, and
995
00:53:27.480 --> 00:53:29.599
there's more up on our web page at aliward dot
996
00:53:29.639 --> 00:53:33.400
com slash Ologies slash Psychedelology, lots of links to lots
997
00:53:33.440 --> 00:53:36.280
of studies. You can find us at Ologies on x
998
00:53:36.360 --> 00:53:39.679
and Instagram. I'm at Ali Ward. Ali has just won
999
00:53:39.880 --> 00:53:42.519
l and I recently put up some new videos on
1000
00:53:42.599 --> 00:53:45.119
Instagram and TikTok for a concept I'm are here on
1001
00:53:45.199 --> 00:53:48.440
called Holidays Observed with your pod mom Jared Sleeper, So
1002
00:53:48.559 --> 00:53:51.760
please do go look for those. They're fun. Also, we
1003
00:53:51.840 --> 00:53:55.679
launched a whole ass new show in its own feed, Smologies.
1004
00:53:55.800 --> 00:53:58.880
It's available wherever you get podcasts. Each week we release
1005
00:53:58.920 --> 00:54:02.119
a new, g rated and shortened episode of Ologies. They
1006
00:54:02.159 --> 00:54:05.199
are classroom safe, suitable for all ages and occasions, so
1007
00:54:05.280 --> 00:54:08.159
we moved Oursmologies to their own feed. Have at it.
1008
00:54:08.599 --> 00:54:10.679
There's more of them if you're going on a family
1009
00:54:10.760 --> 00:54:12.639
road trip. If you have friends with kids, please do
1010
00:54:12.719 --> 00:54:14.599
send them a link. Also, you can become a patron
1011
00:54:14.639 --> 00:54:16.679
of Ologies at patron dot com slash Ologies for as
1012
00:54:16.719 --> 00:54:18.719
little as a buck a month. Ologies merch available at
1013
00:54:18.760 --> 00:54:21.079
the link in the show notes. Aaron Talbert admin's Ologies
1014
00:54:21.119 --> 00:54:25.119
podcast Facebook group. Aveline Mollich makes our professional transcripts. Noel
1015
00:54:25.239 --> 00:54:28.239
Dilworth is our scheduling producer. Susan Hale is our managing
1016
00:54:28.320 --> 00:54:31.920
director and again Frankly a trip sitter every week do
1017
00:54:32.039 --> 00:54:34.639
it fact checking, extra research to Kelly ar Dwyer does
1018
00:54:34.679 --> 00:54:37.320
the website and piecing together the fractals of audio are
1019
00:54:37.400 --> 00:54:40.719
Jake Chafee and lead editor Mercedes Maitland of Maitland Audio.
1020
00:54:41.039 --> 00:54:43.119
Nick Thorburn wrote the theme song and if you stick
1021
00:54:43.159 --> 00:54:49.239
around until the end, I tell you a secret this week.
1022
00:54:49.320 --> 00:54:51.519
It's a kind of a big one. If you stick around,
1023
00:54:51.599 --> 00:54:53.320
I said, I would tell you a little bit about
1024
00:54:53.719 --> 00:54:57.880
my own experience tossing three point four grams of relatively
1025
00:54:58.079 --> 00:55:01.639
fresh and potent psilocybin mush rooms down my gullet in
1026
00:55:01.719 --> 00:55:08.039
an effort to fix my brain. So after my dad died,
1027
00:55:09.320 --> 00:55:11.440
you know, it wasn't the easiest time. I was going
1028
00:55:11.480 --> 00:55:16.960
through depressed talking to my psychiatrist about antidepressants and anxiety
1029
00:55:17.000 --> 00:55:19.119
stuff like that. And at the time I wasn't on
1030
00:55:19.239 --> 00:55:23.280
an antidepressant or a selective serotonin reuptake inhibitor or SNRI,
1031
00:55:23.480 --> 00:55:26.039
which deals with NARP and effort as well. So talking
1032
00:55:26.079 --> 00:55:29.800
to my psychiatrist, he notes this study showing that psilocybin
1033
00:55:29.880 --> 00:55:32.400
therapy in a clinical trial was shown to be more
1034
00:55:32.440 --> 00:55:34.800
effective than lexapro, and so I was like, Okay, I'm
1035
00:55:34.840 --> 00:55:36.079
going to do this. I'm going to go for it.
1036
00:55:36.280 --> 00:55:40.519
My psychiatrist sent me all this information on how to
1037
00:55:40.639 --> 00:55:42.840
do it, how to conduct it myself. I have a
1038
00:55:42.960 --> 00:55:48.000
friend who knows a pharmacist who grows these things very well,
1039
00:55:48.559 --> 00:55:52.840
and I'm again the laws listening. It happened in Oregon,
1040
00:55:53.000 --> 00:55:55.880
but I was really, really, really nervous to do it.
1041
00:55:55.920 --> 00:55:58.960
I'd never taken any psychedelics like that. I think I
1042
00:55:59.119 --> 00:56:01.119
probably had like a app of a mushroom once and
1043
00:56:01.199 --> 00:56:04.440
like barely felt anything. So I was very worried about
1044
00:56:04.639 --> 00:56:07.000
throwing up. I was very worried about having an absolute
1045
00:56:07.039 --> 00:56:09.039
panic attack, because sometimes if I smoked too much weed,
1046
00:56:09.079 --> 00:56:12.039
it's just like I suddenly get terrified of death. And
1047
00:56:12.079 --> 00:56:14.599
I realized it all that lies before us are horrible
1048
00:56:14.840 --> 00:56:17.719
experiences of pain and disappointment. So I was afraid of
1049
00:56:17.800 --> 00:56:21.239
that happening. And I was reading the protocol about how
1050
00:56:21.320 --> 00:56:23.639
you should journal ahead of time so that you set
1051
00:56:23.679 --> 00:56:27.119
out your kind of intentions, you know, what shit you
1052
00:56:27.199 --> 00:56:30.159
want to go through and examine or look at. I
1053
00:56:30.239 --> 00:56:35.280
went whole hog. According to Gale, protocol, Imperial College of London,
1054
00:56:35.519 --> 00:56:40.440
other methodologies like doctor Grobs read how they did the experiments,
1055
00:56:40.800 --> 00:56:45.079
Headphones playlist. I talked about imask now. The day before
1056
00:56:45.239 --> 00:56:48.000
I journaled about like what my intentions were, like why
1057
00:56:48.119 --> 00:56:49.480
was I doing this? What kind of stuff did I
1058
00:56:49.519 --> 00:56:51.599
want to clear out? And I wanted to get through
1059
00:56:52.239 --> 00:56:55.320
this feeling that my worth was tied to how helpful
1060
00:56:55.360 --> 00:56:57.679
I was or how much I was making other people happy.
1061
00:56:57.840 --> 00:57:01.320
I wanted to get through this anxiety and this perfectionism
1062
00:57:01.800 --> 00:57:05.320
that is always using like self criticism to make me
1063
00:57:05.480 --> 00:57:09.159
work harder. I wanted to reconnect with happiness in my
1064
00:57:09.280 --> 00:57:11.679
life and like allow myself to feel happy without fearing
1065
00:57:11.760 --> 00:57:14.079
that like another shoe was going to drop, which is
1066
00:57:14.239 --> 00:57:17.719
just anxiety. And I wanted to feel more open to
1067
00:57:17.800 --> 00:57:20.519
trusting and not feel like, oh, if I, you know,
1068
00:57:20.920 --> 00:57:23.599
get rejected by someone, or if I do one thing wrong,
1069
00:57:23.719 --> 00:57:26.159
someone's going to be so mad at me forever. I
1070
00:57:26.199 --> 00:57:28.400
wanted to just trust that people who loved me love
1071
00:57:28.440 --> 00:57:31.199
me and that was okay. And so I also wanted
1072
00:57:31.280 --> 00:57:35.840
to process my dad's death, and so I wanted to
1073
00:57:36.000 --> 00:57:39.599
sort of like connect with how my family relationships are
1074
00:57:39.719 --> 00:57:43.599
and really feel like I could be myself right, And
1075
00:57:43.800 --> 00:57:47.760
so I journaled the day before. I said, I found
1076
00:57:47.800 --> 00:57:49.320
these by the way. I found these in an old binder.
1077
00:57:49.400 --> 00:57:51.719
I said that some of the things I was looking
1078
00:57:51.800 --> 00:57:56.400
for was comfort and confidence and ease and openness. And
1079
00:57:57.039 --> 00:58:00.440
I wanted to make better choices for my body. I
1080
00:58:00.639 --> 00:58:03.039
love hiking and walking and running. I wanted to do
1081
00:58:03.159 --> 00:58:05.280
more of it. I wanted to not work more than
1082
00:58:05.320 --> 00:58:08.119
I work. And so I went into it with all that.
1083
00:58:08.360 --> 00:58:10.920
And then the day of I was super nervous. I
1084
00:58:11.159 --> 00:58:13.880
ate like a very light breakfast, got in pajamas. Jarrett
1085
00:58:13.920 --> 00:58:16.679
was my trip sitter. I did have one or two
1086
00:58:16.760 --> 00:58:19.159
Sanax pills on hand in case I freaked out. Turned
1087
00:58:19.159 --> 00:58:20.760
out I didn't need them at all. So I'm not
1088
00:58:20.800 --> 00:58:22.679
going to tell you how to obtain things legally. That
1089
00:58:22.760 --> 00:58:24.480
seems pretty murky, but I will tell you that we
1090
00:58:24.559 --> 00:58:26.840
had some. They were very potent. Great. We put them
1091
00:58:26.880 --> 00:58:28.679
in a coffee grinder until they were dust, and then
1092
00:58:28.719 --> 00:58:30.920
I put them in a glass of tangerine juice choked
1093
00:58:30.960 --> 00:58:33.400
it down like it was metamucl or something. And so
1094
00:58:33.519 --> 00:58:37.599
then I get in pajamas. I have the headphones, I
1095
00:58:37.679 --> 00:58:39.599
have my mask. Jared's sitting in the foot of the
1096
00:58:39.679 --> 00:58:42.599
bed and I get in bed and I'm like, okay,
1097
00:58:42.639 --> 00:58:44.760
I don't feel anything, which goes on for like forty
1098
00:58:44.800 --> 00:58:47.119
five minutes, right, and then suddenly my hands started to
1099
00:58:47.159 --> 00:58:49.559
feel kind of tingling, and I was like, oh okay.
1100
00:58:50.039 --> 00:58:52.000
I started to feel like a little stony bologna, and
1101
00:58:52.039 --> 00:58:54.320
I was like, okay, Jarreed's like put the headphones on,
1102
00:58:55.039 --> 00:58:56.920
turn on the music. Da da dah. And so then
1103
00:58:57.159 --> 00:58:58.800
I started to feel a little bit nauseous, and I
1104
00:58:58.960 --> 00:59:01.599
remember hearing just tell your body, it's okay, this thing
1105
00:59:01.719 --> 00:59:04.679
is here to help you. Don't barfit. You worked hard
1106
00:59:04.760 --> 00:59:06.679
for this, don't barf it up. It's okay. It's a friend.
1107
00:59:06.719 --> 00:59:08.400
It's a friend. It's a friend, like when your dog
1108
00:59:08.519 --> 00:59:10.360
is like well and you're like, it's the mailman. They
1109
00:59:10.400 --> 00:59:12.519
have a present for us. So did a little bit
1110
00:59:12.559 --> 00:59:14.639
of that with myself. It passed, which was cool. I
1111
00:59:14.800 --> 00:59:18.039
was super afraid of barfing, didn't at all. And then
1112
00:59:18.320 --> 00:59:20.199
I put on the mask. I was listening to the music.
1113
00:59:20.280 --> 00:59:23.079
It was like whoo, you know, like trippy spa music,
1114
00:59:23.159 --> 00:59:27.480
but it kind of served like a music in a
1115
00:59:27.599 --> 00:59:30.199
trailer where it just brings things along, it takes you
1116
00:59:30.280 --> 00:59:32.559
by the hand and keeps your thoughts moving, which was
1117
00:59:32.599 --> 00:59:35.719
really helpful, I think. And so the first thing I
1118
00:59:36.039 --> 00:59:39.039
kind of remember is feeling like I was coming into
1119
00:59:39.119 --> 00:59:40.880
like a train station and there was just like a
1120
00:59:40.960 --> 00:59:44.840
sea of faces, like when you see old movies like
1121
00:59:45.199 --> 00:59:47.280
Ben hur where there's a lot of people in a coliseum.
1122
00:59:47.400 --> 00:59:47.880
It was like that.
1123
00:59:48.000 --> 00:59:50.360
It was just like faces that were all like hey,
1124
00:59:50.639 --> 00:59:52.920
you made it, and it was like, holy shit, these
1125
00:59:52.960 --> 00:59:56.039
are all my ancestors. This is bonkers. Where'd everyone come from?
1126
00:59:56.119 --> 00:59:58.159
How do you guys know what's coming? They're like, hey,
1127
00:59:58.440 --> 01:00:02.159
you're here, and I was like, whoa this is I
1128
01:00:02.239 --> 01:00:03.639
got a lot of people to catch up with. This
1129
01:00:03.800 --> 01:00:05.960
is so cool. And then one of them started leading
1130
01:00:06.039 --> 01:00:08.320
me down into this labyrinth. Everything was kind of like
1131
01:00:08.440 --> 01:00:11.320
brown Stone clay and they were like, let me show
1132
01:00:11.320 --> 01:00:12.519
you around, Let me show you around, and there were
1133
01:00:12.519 --> 01:00:14.480
people scattered waving as I was going by, and I
1134
01:00:14.599 --> 01:00:16.159
was like, Oh, this is the trip. And then for
1135
01:00:16.440 --> 01:00:18.559
a second I did get scared at something. There was
1136
01:00:18.639 --> 01:00:22.440
like some kind of foreboding, scary feeling, and I remembered
1137
01:00:22.480 --> 01:00:26.280
hearing when that happens, stop and ask what is this here?
1138
01:00:26.360 --> 01:00:28.639
To teach me? Like go at it with curiosity and
1139
01:00:28.760 --> 01:00:30.239
to have like, oh no, this thing's gonna suck my
1140
01:00:30.280 --> 01:00:32.760
brains out. And so I think that I can't remember,
1141
01:00:32.920 --> 01:00:35.440
but I think that that thing that I encountered was
1142
01:00:35.559 --> 01:00:38.280
just like are you sure you should? And I had
1143
01:00:38.320 --> 01:00:39.960
to tell the thing like no, I think we're good here.
1144
01:00:40.039 --> 01:00:43.440
Thank you though, And gosh, I remember being in like
1145
01:00:43.800 --> 01:00:47.119
a Lisa Frank like rainbow. This all, by the way,
1146
01:00:47.639 --> 01:00:50.639
had phones and eye shades on, so this was all
1147
01:00:50.719 --> 01:00:52.800
like in my mind's eye. I wasn't looking at anything,
1148
01:00:53.280 --> 01:00:55.320
so I was having kind of like lucid dreams of
1149
01:00:56.159 --> 01:00:59.480
a lot of bridges and like a beautiful Japanese garden
1150
01:00:59.559 --> 01:01:02.199
that was all and rainbows. And then I started talking
1151
01:01:02.239 --> 01:01:06.199
to dead people. That was pretty nanas Like Dad came through.
1152
01:01:06.440 --> 01:01:07.440
He's like, hey, what's up.
1153
01:01:07.480 --> 01:01:07.880
You made it?
1154
01:01:07.960 --> 01:01:10.280
I was like, Dad, what's up. We had a long
1155
01:01:10.559 --> 01:01:14.239
conversation about how much injustice there is in the world
1156
01:01:14.440 --> 01:01:16.559
and how he was proud of me for trying to fight,
1157
01:01:16.679 --> 01:01:19.360
which was really great to hear, even if my brain
1158
01:01:19.519 --> 01:01:22.599
just made it up. I also talked to a brother
1159
01:01:22.679 --> 01:01:25.880
in law who had died, a long conversation about how
1160
01:01:25.920 --> 01:01:28.760
we were both like childless but an aunt and an
1161
01:01:28.840 --> 01:01:31.400
uncle who were happy to take care of our nieces
1162
01:01:31.760 --> 01:01:35.079
and our nephews and not to worry about not having kids.
1163
01:01:35.159 --> 01:01:38.559
I had this really wild sort of like processing of
1164
01:01:38.639 --> 01:01:41.119
the fact that I am not going to bear kids
1165
01:01:41.159 --> 01:01:43.239
and probably won't raise them. If you listen to my
1166
01:01:43.280 --> 01:01:48.639
mystery surgery a few months ago, I got nothing in
1167
01:01:48.719 --> 01:01:51.559
there that makes babies, had them all taken out. I've
1168
01:01:51.559 --> 01:01:54.760
been having health problems with that for over a decade. Anyway,
1169
01:01:55.119 --> 01:01:58.679
I was having these like these really great conversations with
1170
01:01:58.920 --> 01:02:02.599
some sort of voiceless voice being like, hey, don't worry
1171
01:02:02.639 --> 01:02:05.280
about it. Some people are here to further their DNA
1172
01:02:05.800 --> 01:02:08.119
and to keep that going. That's okay. You're here to
1173
01:02:08.199 --> 01:02:09.760
make stuff and put it in the world, which is
1174
01:02:09.760 --> 01:02:11.920
going to help other people raise their kids. So don't
1175
01:02:11.960 --> 01:02:14.760
worry about it. That's not your legacy. DNA is not
1176
01:02:14.800 --> 01:02:16.679
your legacy. That's also why you have so many great
1177
01:02:16.719 --> 01:02:20.280
like female friends who understand what it's like to want
1178
01:02:20.320 --> 01:02:23.920
to make things and maybe not prioritize motherhood. So I
1179
01:02:24.000 --> 01:02:26.079
was like, that actually really helps. Thank you so much
1180
01:02:26.119 --> 01:02:34.000
for that. So long conversations without words and crying. Never
1181
01:02:34.199 --> 01:02:36.480
cried so much in my life, but like happy tears,
1182
01:02:36.639 --> 01:02:39.239
like when you watch videos of someone coming home from
1183
01:02:39.280 --> 01:02:42.280
a trip and their dog loses their mind recognizing them
1184
01:02:42.320 --> 01:02:43.960
and is so happy. It was like that kind of crying,
1185
01:02:44.960 --> 01:02:49.039
soaking handkerchiefs, kleenecks, just crying in bed. And at one point,
1186
01:02:49.119 --> 01:02:50.519
you know, Jared, He's sitting at the end of the
1187
01:02:50.599 --> 01:02:53.639
bed during the beginning of this, but my dad and
1188
01:02:53.679 --> 01:02:56.360
I in this mystical realm, we're talking about Jared and
1189
01:02:56.519 --> 01:02:59.599
how much he was so helpful and how much love
1190
01:02:59.639 --> 01:03:01.920
he showed when my dad was in hospice and we
1191
01:03:02.000 --> 01:03:03.719
were talking about, like what a great guy. And then
1192
01:03:03.719 --> 01:03:05.079
at one point I had to be like, hey, Derek,
1193
01:03:05.119 --> 01:03:07.639
can you leave actually because it's just awkward because we're
1194
01:03:07.719 --> 01:03:10.039
like talking about you. And he was like, Okay, let
1195
01:03:10.079 --> 01:03:11.719
me know if you need anything. At one point I
1196
01:03:11.760 --> 01:03:13.480
did have to go to the bathroom and I was like, hey,
1197
01:03:13.519 --> 01:03:15.719
can you help me? And I made very very sure
1198
01:03:15.840 --> 01:03:17.679
not to look in the mirror. I heard that bad
1199
01:03:17.760 --> 01:03:20.679
things happen when you do, although I did peek under
1200
01:03:20.719 --> 01:03:22.719
my eyemask and all I could see was I looked
1201
01:03:23.039 --> 01:03:25.039
like someone who had just been on a twenty hour
1202
01:03:25.159 --> 01:03:28.559
flight with turbulence. It wasn't a good look. But I
1203
01:03:28.559 --> 01:03:31.199
remember being like, that's what I should look like right now. Anyway,
1204
01:03:31.280 --> 01:03:34.159
got back to bed. The whole thing lasted like six hours.
1205
01:03:34.800 --> 01:03:38.599
I started to come down from it, and it felt
1206
01:03:39.000 --> 01:03:42.800
really glowy and peaceful, and I remember sitting on the
1207
01:03:42.880 --> 01:03:45.320
couch and sort of telling Jared about it, just how
1208
01:03:45.440 --> 01:03:48.599
much I realized I'm so lucky to be able to
1209
01:03:48.719 --> 01:03:52.639
do my dreams and I can let myself be happier
1210
01:03:52.679 --> 01:03:56.119
about that. Also, just what a waste of energy and
1211
01:03:56.320 --> 01:04:00.639
molecules and hormones anxiety is. So here's the deal. When
1212
01:04:00.679 --> 01:04:02.039
I came out of it, I was like, all of
1213
01:04:02.119 --> 01:04:04.639
my problems in life are solved. I've never felt more
1214
01:04:04.760 --> 01:04:09.320
peaceful and confident and centered and grounded and full of love. Right,
1215
01:04:09.679 --> 01:04:12.440
here's the thing that lasts for a bit, right, that
1216
01:04:12.599 --> 01:04:15.639
lasts for weeks months. But then when things start to
1217
01:04:15.679 --> 01:04:18.760
get challenging and you start to forget all those thoughts
1218
01:04:18.880 --> 01:04:20.800
and how they felt in your body and your mind,
1219
01:04:21.280 --> 01:04:23.360
and you start picking up old habits, then that can
1220
01:04:23.440 --> 01:04:27.320
kind of dissipate. And so it's a reminder you have
1221
01:04:27.440 --> 01:04:31.039
to actively remember that what you learned or what you saw,
1222
01:04:31.159 --> 01:04:33.000
what you've got a chance to feel that good for
1223
01:04:33.079 --> 01:04:35.000
a bit. What do you have to do to put
1224
01:04:35.039 --> 01:04:37.599
those things in place, whether it's like having better boundaries,
1225
01:04:37.639 --> 01:04:41.480
whether it's having more confidence in yourself, whether it's looking
1226
01:04:41.599 --> 01:04:44.159
on people who are difficult in your life with more
1227
01:04:44.239 --> 01:04:48.199
empathy or with maybe less empathy, depending on the relationship.
1228
01:04:48.440 --> 01:04:51.599
So it's like you learn how good things can feel,
1229
01:04:51.719 --> 01:04:55.599
and how like your essence is a competent and full
1230
01:04:55.679 --> 01:04:58.039
of love and all of these things, and then it's
1231
01:04:58.159 --> 01:05:00.840
just a matter of on the outside world doing all
1232
01:05:00.880 --> 01:05:03.280
those things that get you to that place. And so
1233
01:05:03.400 --> 01:05:08.039
that was my experience of it for me, super super transformative.
1234
01:05:08.079 --> 01:05:11.480
I have thought of that trip every single day for
1235
01:05:11.719 --> 01:05:14.480
the last couple of years. It's definitely one of the
1236
01:05:14.599 --> 01:05:18.159
most impactful experiences of my life. I'm so glad that
1237
01:05:18.239 --> 01:05:23.679
I didn't take sacred ethno botanical medicines in a setting
1238
01:05:23.760 --> 01:05:27.639
that was cavalier. I think that they have a lot
1239
01:05:27.719 --> 01:05:29.840
that they can teach you about how your own mind works,
1240
01:05:30.199 --> 01:05:33.000
So just can those thoughts and that reframing can get
1241
01:05:33.039 --> 01:05:35.320
to you in a much deeper way. Anyway, that is
1242
01:05:35.440 --> 01:05:38.320
my story about it. Super transformative. I think about it
1243
01:05:38.320 --> 01:05:40.920
all the time. I'm not afraid of death. I feel
1244
01:05:40.960 --> 01:05:45.199
like whatever happens to you, your molecules become something else,
1245
01:05:45.239 --> 01:05:48.119
your atoms become something else. Maybe I'll be a frog,
1246
01:05:48.480 --> 01:05:51.159
maybe I'll turn into a plane. That would be a
1247
01:05:51.280 --> 01:05:54.679
random choice, but it could happen, who knows. But whatever happens,
1248
01:05:54.719 --> 01:05:58.599
you're just we're here for a relatively short time. Everyone's
1249
01:05:58.679 --> 01:06:00.480
just a tiny little baby that wants to be loved.
1250
01:06:00.679 --> 01:06:03.639
A lot of anger and fear can make people get
1251
01:06:03.679 --> 01:06:07.199
a bit off track. But the really important thing is
1252
01:06:07.239 --> 01:06:09.119
that you have to be much more kind to yourself,
1253
01:06:09.159 --> 01:06:11.280
and when you are that way, you will be kinder
1254
01:06:11.360 --> 01:06:16.239
to others. So that's my big rainbowy mystical trip. I
1255
01:06:16.400 --> 01:06:18.760
can't stress enough that it's really important to talk to
1256
01:06:18.840 --> 01:06:21.199
a doctor and do a ton of research. Make sure
1257
01:06:21.239 --> 01:06:25.920
that you're not at risk for anything like psychosis or anxiety,
1258
01:06:26.280 --> 01:06:31.760
cardiovascular stuff. Do not go into this lightly, is my suggestion.
1259
01:06:31.960 --> 01:06:35.079
If you decide to do something like this. Also journal before,
1260
01:06:35.320 --> 01:06:39.679
journal after. Just be very careful and no matter what,
1261
01:06:40.559 --> 01:06:42.519
just try to take some of those lessons about being
1262
01:06:42.559 --> 01:06:45.840
kinder to yourself and just like appreciating nature and time
1263
01:06:46.159 --> 01:06:48.840
and all the things that are good around you. And anyway,
1264
01:06:48.920 --> 01:06:51.360
I hope this helps, as I say, do the thing,
1265
01:06:52.199 --> 01:06:56.559
make the project, do the art, text the crush, cut
1266
01:06:56.639 --> 01:06:59.599
your hair, wear ugly shoes. If you like them, you
1267
01:06:59.800 --> 01:07:02.480
are aren't anybody else, and that's great, so you don't
1268
01:07:02.559 --> 01:07:05.599
have to be anyway. I hope you've enjoyed this two parter,
1269
01:07:06.280 --> 01:07:09.079
this extra long secret. If this is your first episode
1270
01:07:09.079 --> 01:07:11.719
of listening to ologies, the secrets are not usually this long.
1271
01:07:12.159 --> 01:07:15.719
If you've listened to the end, congratulations for sticking it
1272
01:07:15.760 --> 01:07:19.840
out with me, and sleep tight. We all love you. Byebye.
1273
01:07:20.760 --> 01:07:33.920
Pacidermatology, homeology, crypto zoology, lithology, technology, meteorology, paratology, technology, seriology, selenology.
1274
01:07:41.760 --> 01:07:42.719
That sounds intense.
1275
01:07:43.360 --> 01:07:43.960
Get value.
1276
01:07:44.000 --> 01:07:46.440
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1277
01:07:46.519 --> 01:07:49.199
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1278
01:07:49.199 --> 01:07:52.199
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1279
01:07:52.239 --> 01:07:55.119
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01:07:58.119 --> 01:08:01.280
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1282
01:08:01.440 --> 01:08:04.239
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01:08:04.679 --> 01:08:08.079
Can't argue with that shop in store or online. Tesco
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Every Little Helps available in most stores, Prices varying.
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Express