Judges 5 Deborah Female leader of the bible

Both: Hello welcome back to Offscripts with Bec and Sam and I'm Bec. And I'm Sam. And today you are joining us for our new series called Unsung Women of the Bible. This is an exciting series where we get to explore women of the Bible who you may not have heard of before. Yeah, so it's maybe the women who... Well, there is some big hitters in there as well. Big hitters. But also, even though if they are big hitters, I think they may or may not have been downplayed by society, shall we say? Maybe. Yeah. Absolutely, I agree. OK, so today our unsung woman is... Our Debs. Deborah. Deborah. who was Deborah? So Deborah appears in the book of Judges. Yep. And a little bit of background of what the book of Judges is about. So first off, where can people find Judges in the Bible? Where is it placed? So the book of Judges is placed in the Old Testament. And it comes after Joshua, starts after Joshua. So that's where you can find it in the Old Testament. And Deborah is one of the judges. how many judges was there? So there was 12 overall judges mentioned within the book of judges. Some of them get a short mention, but there's only actually six that it really goes into detail about their leadership, shall we say, or somewhat leadership. If you go through the book of judges, you will soon find out. the Book of Judges comes after Joshua, where Joshua leads the Israelites people into the Promised Land. But it comes before there was a monarchy. So we're thinking King Saul, King David, before all them, but after the Israelites have joined the promised lands. Yeah, and then, a judge isn't typically what we would... Sorry, I just wanted to add on there. Judges start with the death of Joshua. Yes. And he asks the Israelite people to be faithful, stick with the covenant of God, but also... God instructed the Israelites to drive out all of the Canaanites and that was their first disobedience. So, this is a bit of a theme of the age of, like, 10 away from God. And I suppose if you have read, you might be thinking, or even if never read it, you might be thinking, gosh, this is a really violent bit of scripture. And that it you know, not child-friendly, shall we say. And I suppose one of the things that... A question people often pose to me is, well, if God's real, why do bad things happen? And again, this is reflected in judges how really terrible and really violent things happen. And that is because this isn't God's original plan. This is a result of what you might have heard, we've spoken about before, the fall and how, know, even the apple or it might have been, I don't know, it's an apple, it might have been something else. let's not go into that today. Yeah, so anyway, so it's a result of the fall. so it's never God's plan. So God delivers them because that's what they ask for. And you know, he is a God of free will. You have to step into a relationship with him. But he's not going to force us to comply with him because he chose to step out of his covenant. Yeah, and the Book of Judges really highlights the failure of the Israelite people where they fall into this cycle, as Bex was explaining, of and worshipping the Canaanite gods and this moral corruption. That then leads them into oppression from the Canaanites. Then they come to repent to the Lord and say, you know, they are sorry for turning their backs on them and not keeping to the Torah. And then God delivers them from that Canaanite oppression. And then we see, and then there's a period of peace. And we see that cycle repeat again and again and again. And as we go through judges, which we're not going to go to today because we're just going to focus on Deborah, but as you go through judges and read it for yourself, you'll see how these judges gradually get a little less moral and a little worse. That doesn't mean that God endorses their behavior at all. God raises the most appropriate person at the time that they were in. But God certainly doesn't endorse the behaviour of all the judges as they go from bad to Absolutely wild. And judges end with saying they all did what they thought was right in their own eyes. So Bex, let's go into what a judge actually is because as soon as you say the word judge, the thing that pops into my head is Judge Judy, Robes, Gavel. And judging. And judgment, yeah. So a judge isn't the judge is what we see today. A judge was somebody that was raised up often to preside over people who they real... They would bring their problems, their issues, you know, didn't pay... Legal matters. Legal matters. it was... the judge actually had oversight over the army or what would be seen as military leaders and that was primarily to try and keep peace and order. It wasn't a judge who would preside over legal matters or that she would, in this case, would preside over disputes between people who brought the province here. and I think it's important to mention that the judges that we read across judges aren't... all exactly the same. of them were excellent military leaders and less so politicians. They tended to operate like a chieftain, tribe leader, and they ruled over the tribes of Israel. So let's get into it a little bit about Debra. Who Debra was, what's the story there Bex? So one of the really key important details is Debra, if you've not noticed, was a woman. That's really important. And she was the only female judge that was rose up. Yeah, well, Scripture tells us. Yeah, that we're aware of. And she comes in after 20 years of oppression from, is it, Ehad? Ehad dies. The Israelite to do what the Israelites do back then and go into sin, they're worshipping the Canaanite gods. Yeah. And Scripture actually says... God sells them over to the Canaanites. Which is really harsh language, isn't it? It is, and to think that it was almost like he saves them from slavery, but to sell somebody into something is almost like you're selling them back into slavery. He's given them what they've asked for, their wish from these gods. They're not acting as if people who are being brought out of slavery by this mighty god. they're choosing to turn their backs on their lords. So their lord said, okay, if you want to go and live as a Canaanite, we'll let them come and rule over you. So, do you know that saying, here's your cake, you can eat it. Yeah, and so that's when they fall into that 20 years of oppression. And brutal oppression, so think about, yeah. And there was no moral laws in some of these societies, and it would have been really harsh. Women were actually in this day and age were in oppression, suffered greatly. And Jabin was the king of the Canaanites at the time and he had a mighty army and scripture tells us he had 900 golden chariots. Which in today's equivalent is about... It's a battalion isn't it? So, you know, raising up Deborah during this time, a woman, to bring Israel back to the Father, it would have been a really mighty thing for the Lord to do, to bring, raise up Deborah. And it's always, I love how the Lord brings unlikely people and just uncovers that for us and makes us go, why Lord? It's not our place to ask the Lord why, it's trusting in the Lord, but I just love. how our Lord shows us leadership in unlikely places. before the Lord raises Deborah up, who is Deborah to the people? So Deborah sits under this palm tree, and she's obviously an upstanding member of society, and she's helping people resolve disputes. She's obviously a woman of really good standing. And she's a nun prophetess, yeah. So people trust in her, they believe her, they know her. They know she's got a direct line to the Lord. She's known to be very wise and level-headed. And bold, it's ascribed, so she's bold. she's maybe making some of these decisions that are quite difficult, but she's someone they can rely upon. And I think it's an interesting way to let them say that she sits under the palm tree, because though that doesn't mean very much to us, to the people reading this at the time... It signifies to them that the Israelite people knew exactly where to find her. She was under the palm tree. After the people of Israel repent and God raises Deborah up, Deborah is well known to be one of the judges that truly fears the Lord stuck the closest to his commands. you can see at the end of the book of Judges there was peace. So she listened to what the Lord asked her to do and she was faithful to him and his plan for his children essentially. So, and you can see that the theme through the book. let's go through the contents of this book because it gets a little interesting, doesn't it, And dark. Cicero commands Jabin's mighty army and he is the one that commands the 900 chariots. Deborah was not a natural military leader. No, she wasn't. And so she appoints Barak to the role of commander of her army. the one that she's been able to raise up under her palm tree. Because the Lord's told her she needs to rise up and take back Israel. And the thing about what I love, and if you read the scripture, Barak doesn't really want to go. Well, he does want to go, but he wants... So don't think that was the case for me. The way that I read it was that Deborah asks Barak to take 10,000 men and to go and defeat Sisera's army, and that the Lord would have gone before him and... that sits, he is handing Cicero over into your hands. But Barack turns around and says something really interesting. So Barack says, I'll go if you go. And if you don't go, I won't I'm not going. I mean, I do read that. I probably disagree a little bit on that. actually, obviously Deborah's this prophetess and he's not, so he's like, hang on a minute, you're sending me into this massive army. This is the biggest army in the world, in their world. Like I don't believe that I'm going to be able to defeat this with 10,000 men. The comparison is so different, but I do love how Deborah paints this picture and says, do you not know the God goes before you? they have this mighty army, but you've got the God of heaven You've got the Lord, yeah. Yeah. And so I think, you know, she, sometimes people can read this as, that's a bit sly. He's kind of saying, well, if you don't go, I won't go. But I do believe that she's a prophetess and she's had this word from the Lord. and that can be different in how that's interpreted. Yeah, because I take away something completely different from you because I don't read that as barracks like, not going if you don't go. take that, that barrack really trusts in what Deborah says, even lies on her counsel and knows... Maybe he's got a little bit of doubt. Maybe we don't know the scripture doesn't say this is all inference from us. But I take away that Barack has trust in Deborah so much that he wants here with him beside him as he leads the army to go and defeat Cicero. So Sisera, our Ardnoch, who thinks he's going to take down He was the cock of the school. And Barak, he turns up and lo and behold, what happens, So, Barak's army defeats Sisera's army and on toes. He's gone, he's ran off. He's running away and he's on foot. It says he fled on foot. and he's looking for a safe place to go. So he would have had, the way the armies were structured, he would have been behind the chariot, he would have been on a mighty horse. So the fact he's fled on foot, that infers, that- It's cowardice. Yeah, he's been stripped of everything. Yeah. So he runs off and who does he seek shelter with, Sam? So he seeks shelter with Haybar. Now, Haybar, he saw as a... Hebar had an alliance with King Jabin. And so he saw Hebar as a safe shelter. So he doesn't get... Yeah, and someone he could trust, but he doesn't get into Hebar's tent. He gets into Hebar's wife's tent, jail. your mates fled from war. and he's asked for shelter and rather than bed in with your mate, you've gone with your mate's wife. It's a bit strange. No, the scripture doesn't say, doesn't say any that he was trying anything on. The scripture, but it is, it is. It's bit odd. I wouldn't like a man coming to stay in my tent if I was a married woman. Let's just say that. I suppose, and also we don't know how big the tent was. You don't know whether it was one room, because some of these tents... The described as tentable, they were quite big structures. Anyhow, JL, she's not happy, she? Well... She plays a game. So, JL, she is the perfect hostess. Yeah. He comes in and he asks for water and she gives him milk. She's like, I've got something better for you. Yeah. He needs a place to stay. She puts a blanket over him, she tucks him in and she gets him comfortable. And he says, OK, now you can't go to sleep. You need to stand guard. So you go stand at the door. If anyone comes by, say you haven't saw me. No, there's no one here. And then it shows just how comfortable she made him because he falls fast asleep. And as he's fast asleep, JL picks up a 10-peg and a hammer and drives that 10-peg straight through his temple and he dies. It comes up the other side. That's how graphic it is. But it just shows you that... she was accommodating and you know, I think sometimes what I reflect on the Bible is like how much composure must she have had? to... Exactly. Yeah, yeah. But also, can we just have a word for J.M. because how scary would that have been? Because if Cicero was this big army commander, you could imagine that he was like a huge stocky man. You know, you hold... you have no way to defend yourself by this man. you tried, if you turned him away at that moment going, no, I, that she, for her to do this act was an act of bravery against this man. But also it doesn't tell us in the scripture whether Cicero has done this to her before, I think it does say... It says in chapter five in the song of Debs that J.L. knew the power of the Lord or something along them lines. that's what drove her to drive the 10-peck through. But what I would say is, regardless of whether J.L. had fear for the Lord, one thing we forgot to mention earlier on in the story is that when Barak says that he wants Deborah to come with him, Deborah actually says to Barak, I'll come with you. but the victory will belong to a woman. And when you first read it, you think, is she talking about herself? Like the victory is gonna be mine. I'll come with you, you'll fight, you'll make all the decisions from an army perspective. But is it gonna be in my name? But it's not. She's talking about this woman, JL. But also that just shows you what a great prophetess she is. she's she knows, she's trusting in what the Lord says. And she doesn't even feel the need to crack. Because it'd be rightly to assume, she's talking about herself, but she doesn't need to do that. No, doesn't. Cos she is listening intently to the Lord. And she's so humble. Yeah. It's one thing I can take away from reading about Deborah is her humility within all of this. As well, think the Book of Deborah is the most well-written about Judge. She has the biggest... She has the biggest section within the Book of Judges. Well, she was probably the best judge out there. That was raised up. Deborah, is absolutely nothing negative written about her. sort of going back on how we structured our previous podcasts, you know, what does this mean for us today? What are the reflections that we have on this story of this judge being rose, of this female judge being rose? Yeah, what does it mean to have? Because if we look at Deborah, Deborah was, there is no argument against that Deborah was a leader of the Israelites. She was known as mother of Israel. And it says, so if you read in chapter five, It says a number of times how she's the leader, mother. She's been held up in high regard. And I suppose I always think about when people talk about women in leadership or women in general roles in the church, how can they ignore the fact that Deborah was a woman? And I think one of the sort of, my view is that I don't think you should draw a really fixed boundary on either or. She was clearly a woman, she was clearly raised up. But I don't think it should be a mic drop moment for either side of that argument. I think, I don't know how you could say women can't be in leadership and then read Deborah inside that. What was that mistake? Did God make a mistake? By raising Deborah up as a leader? No, I think you're absolutely right. I think most Christians fall somewhere in between, don't they? Yeah. There are obviously... factions within the Christian faith that are very stark complementarians and others that are very stark egalitarians and we are not in the business of we're not egalitarians and I think that's really clear. I think we should be open and honest and say that we're not. We are doing a series around unsung women of the Bible because I think every story in the Bible is important and it's put in the Bible for a reason because there's something for us to live and these stories are ones that are most easily forgotten, so we're just putting a spotlight on them because I feel like that's what God is calling us to do. However, I would still take the position that you've just laid out there that I think anybody that puts a stark boundary of that women should not lead within the church when they argue about Deborah's position. within the church, They say that the book of judges and Deborah's part is descriptive and not prescriptive. It's like a one-off. She was an exception. Yeah, she was an extraordinary exception. But even if we take that view that Deborah was an extraordinary exception, where does the boundary sit? for an extraordinary exception to be raised up by God again, is this space within a complementarian view for that to happen? And if there isn't a space in the complementarian view for that to happen, then are they going to stand against God and say, no, God did not raise this woman up because women shouldn't be in leadership? Or do they humble themselves a little bit and say, if this is within God's plan, then... This is... This should be my plan. Yeah? Yeah. And I think, you know, when you look at women in the Bible and we move it, you forward to the New Testament and Jesus, Jesus, you know, there's a woman at the well who he proclaims he's the Messiah to. That's the very first person he proclaims he's the Messiah to on earth. You think about Mary and the women who come to the tomb afterwards. He appears to them. So God has a really special place for women in the world. Deborah is one of the really important women that I feel like the Lord rose up because that is what Israel needed. I think, you know, sometimes I've said this quite a lot, know, women have certain traits and men have certain traits. And the combination of both of them is, you know, living in unity. That's what Adam and Eve were supposed to do. That was supposed to be enough for each other, you know, having these different, different, they're supposed to work together, you know, so they ruled the earth together. That's what was supposed to happen before the fall. And I think if you have either too much of one or too much of the other. And there's questions to be asked at the moment about how many females are in the Church of England. Yeah, because I am of the idea that my place is at home with my children. Now, there's nothing in scripture that suggests that Deborah did have children. She was known as Mother of Israel. We know that she had a husband, but it says nothing about any children. But I feel that my place is at home. So I do fall under that category of conservative, like a conservative view that if my husband earns enough money to support me at home, I would stay at home with my children. I'd be a stay at home mom. As it happens, I mean, I'd give up my career to stay at home with my children, because I feel like that's where God's calling me to be. But that's not. to say that God is calling everyone there and God certainly didn't call Deborah there. No, because she was an awesome leader. She was one of the most successful judges. So I think there is a place in leadership for women. But equally, I feel society has had it wrong in the past. And that's how we spoke a little bit about how abuse has been allowed to happen within certain sectors of the church. I'm from, you know... like Sami cemented a couple of times, a cradle Catholic. So in my upbringing around Christianity, women weren't in leadership. Women were able to lead. And a really interesting fact, actually, which I'm willing to share, is that I was one of the first female altar servers in Liverpool. And that was a big rigmarole. And we had a really forward-facing priest who was like, actually, no, I feel like these group of girls who were really committed. wants be also service and we got back over the line and that was seen as massive at the time. But what I did notice and I can look at it on reflection now is that we had a priest at the front from the pulpit preaching, loved that amazing. But actually around him we had these really devoted women of God who were in leadership but just didn't have the title of that leadership role who were really supporting the church to function. Complete bastions of faith, you really strong characters and, bold and reliable. Some of these, you know, some of these, these, these, character traits that we see in, in, in Deborah. So you were brought up in the Church of England, so I think you, how was it? Was that a difference or? Yeah, so for me, even though the church I went to was a male leader and he did an extraordinary job, the same, we saw lots of incredible women who held up the church. However, even though I was brought up with a male vicar, this argument between whether males and females, whether females should be in leadership within the church, that wasn't an argument that I even knew was happening when I was young. I didn't even know that was an argument to be had until I picked up scripture for the first time. And I had to really wrestle with the difficult text within scripture because... I didn't even know that this was an issue because Within the Anglican Church, women were already in leadership, women could already be vicar's, so I didn't know that there was an issue until I grew up. happen? Because I think that did happen in the 90s. I think it's quite a new thing that women could be vicar's. I have no idea. I think it's within our lifetime that that's happened. I knew when I was young, I knew of female vicar's. yeah. When I was young, I knew of female vicar's, but I just didn't have a female vicar. But then you think about, you know, there was nuns who ran schools and were these great leaders in the Catholic Church, that's what I'd seen anyway. But they weren't allowed the, almost the label of being a leader. leader. And they were always seen as helpers in the church. But as you've seen with devs, we keep calling them devs, just as girls. I would say when you first started really devoting yourself back to the Bible, this is one of the characters that you were like, listen, you've got to study here. This is something that, you I feel like you were really inspired by Deborah early on in your journey, sort of when you were opening your Bible. Yeah, no, I absolutely was. I think Deborah was, I do agree that she was an extraordinary woman. And I do agree that not all women are called for leadership. Out of 12 judges, we've only got one woman. So I can't get on board with that. What I can't get on board with that is that no women or that no women are called to leadership. That's something that I just feel like the Bible doesn't say. And I know that people will probably bring up scripture like Corinthians and Timothy and say, know, like it does say this and that. But when I look deeper into it, I just don't see it. And I hear this a lot from even many of our friends that don't believe that women should be in leadership, that women are too dot dot dot, fill in the blank, women are too emotional, women are all over the place. Women are too this, too that, and they can't be in leadership because they're this. Deborah doesn't pretend to be something, she's not a militant leader. like the other judges who rose up either before her or after her or her predecessors who become really great militant leaders. No, she led with her strengths as a prophetess, as a wise woman. She didn't try and be something that she's not. And I think if I was to leave a message for other women that are pursuing leadership within the church is rule by your strengths. Yeah, and I think, you know, always take it back to Jesus. And so people will use different scriptures. And my reflection on that is a lot of the scriptures that people quote are from Paul. I always, somebody said to me, Paul was this amazing leader, of course he A lot of the New Testament was authored by him or people that he supported. Yeah, but it was still inspired scripture It was inspired scripture, but I would say Jesus is the person that we need to look up to. Paul was amazing. And you know, but ultimately that was a time and a place. So when think about Corinthians, that was a certain church. Paul was right, these were letters to the church. This is a whole other podcast. We can't get into this too much because otherwise we'll be here forever in a day. People have switched off by now. But I think the idea is to understand the character of Deborah, that she was a woman and that she used her womanly values to be one of the best. judges and leaders of Israel during that time before the monarch. If you feel like the Lord's leading you into leadership, you will have minus on support if you are a female or a male. No, and as well, I think it's really good to say is that I still hold the view that everybody needs to get to this place on their own. Yeah, I don't go to my fellow Christian friends and say, view is wrong, because they've got to that place. I don't assume that they don't know their scripture to get to that place. There are many wise people and many theologians that disagree with my view and that's okay. If you disagree with our view then do get out in the comments below. But if do so respectfully is what I would say. Because we're here for respectful discord. We like to be challenged on these views. It'll grow us all into better Christians and better... What? Human beings. Well, I was going to say better warriors for our faith is what I was going to say. And so healthy debate is exactly that. It's healthy. And I think it's something that should be. I think it should be encouraged. Absolutely. So please comment below. Please do so respectfully and join us again next time while we continue our series in Unsung Women of the Bible. This has been Off-Screen Chair with Beck and Sam. I have had a cold today so my voice has been all over the place. But thank you for sticking by and staying with us throughout this podcast. And till next time, see you then. See you later. Bye.