149: Wrong Name at Sand Bar Flat

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In August of nineteen ninety six, twenty year old Michael
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Madden packed his car early, left a note for his family,
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and he and his dog set off towards the forest.
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Only one of them would return. I'm Danielle, I'm Megan,
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and this is off the trails.
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I woke up this morning.
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Everything was icy, and it's April twentieth, cut and done
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with that.
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Oh I bet I just.
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Brought out blankets to cover the bees, cover the plants,
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all those things.
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It's going to be in the twenties again tonight. So
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you got a nice little taste of spring weather. And
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then it said, oh, hold on, we're not completely done
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with winter yet.
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I truly fell for false spring this year because maybe
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we can happen ago. I turned back on the outside
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water so that I could use it to fill the
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duck pool and all that.
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Well, I didn't realize it was going to be freezing.
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And now, of course I have a little crack in
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my outside pipe with little leaks. Now it's been turned
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off again, looking forward to fixing that plumbing issue.
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That's not great. Frozen all right.
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So before we get into today's story, if you want
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to do like a little location profile. The Stantuslast National Forests,
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which I think we have traveled here before, covers nearly
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a million acres of the central Sierra Nevada Mountains in California.
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Areas in this forest can be very remote, with dense
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pine forest, granite outcroppings, and rivers cold enough to make
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you suver any time of year.
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I mean, if waters below like eighty five degrees or shivering,
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You're like, if it is not a hot shower, it
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is too cold. We have obviously the springs here that'll
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always stay around like seventy two degrees year round, and
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I mean granted on a very very hot day it
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is refreshing, but it still bites because it's just cold.
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It's crisp and cold.
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Over the winter.
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Again, going back to frozen pipes, my shower had the
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hot water pipe frozen, and I like felt the cold
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water and I was like, yeah, that's cold, but I
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could take a real quick shower in that until you
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put your body in it. And I was like, this
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is the worst decision I've ever made. But now I
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got to commit to it because I got.
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To my hair is partially wet. I just got to
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get through it.
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Yeah, I mean I commend those people who take cold
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showers or turn their shower cold at the end of
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it before they get out. I've tried it before, but
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I don't think I'm keeping it cold long enough. But
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you know, a for effort.
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Maybe next year. No, I don't even want to try.
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It's not even worth it to me. I don't want
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to be that person. All right, But we're going to
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be going to sand Bar Flat, which is a campground
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in this forest that sits along the Santa Slaus River.
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This campground is remote, but it's not totally inaccessible.
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You can get there by road.
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It sounds like there's a lot of switchbacks, and clearly
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it's not paved.
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I read some reviews and people were.
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Like, yeah, I wouldn't take just any old vehicle out
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there unless you want your suspension wrecked and scratches and
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dents and all kinds of mayhem.
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But you can drive out there if you choose to.
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Okay, it's nice because people who want to go out
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there can get out there without having to be dropped
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by a bush plane. But it still is off the
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veient path and definitely remote, and of course self service
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is essentially non existent. What you're out there. Today's story
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takes place in nineteen ninety six. I don't think anybody
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probably had cell phones, so kind of a moot point,
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but that's okay. In the summer of nineteen ninety six,
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this was a place that you would expect to find
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Michael Madden. He was a student at Humboldt State University,
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and I saw that he was studying something in the
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biology field, and he was hoping to go on to
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become a forest ranger at some point.
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That was his ultimate goal.
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The woods and the outdoors weren't just an interest for him.
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I bet they were his home away from home, if
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not his real first home. Right on the morning of
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August tenth, he left his family's home, likely around five am.
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He didn't wake anybody up. He left a note for
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his mom telling her where he was going. I would
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assume that if he was living or staying with his family,
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they probably already knew that he was going away. I
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would hope not just like, oh, here's a note, I'm
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be gone the next seven days.
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Well, especially if it sounds like he took a dog
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with him, if it's a family dog or even just
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a dog that's living at that house, you're like, Okay,
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is that dog also going to be gone for seven?
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No?
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Right, right?
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I just thought it was funny that all the sources
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were like, he left a note, but I was like,
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I don't know.
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His mom probably knew. Note was maybe like just a
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follow up. I don't know.
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Yep.
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He tossed his gear into his Chevy Cavalier, which I
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looked that car up because I don't really know what
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that looks like, and that is the quintessential nineties vehicle
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for like teenagers in early twenties.
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I had one, did you? Yeah? I had one two
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thousand and five. It was my first Carkay.
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But was it an older one?
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Yes? Yeah, I loved her.
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What was her name?
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I don't know, Oh, all right, some people name their cars,
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but like that car through it and she took it.
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So yeah, that's why I'm sure he felt comfortable taking
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his and going out to this location.
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Mike and his dog Matilda were on the road wickiq
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Or on the road before the sun was even fully up.
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He was heading to Sandbar Flat and some friends would
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be meeting him there in a day or so. Mike
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wanted to get a head start to set up camp
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spend some quiet time alone and probably try and get
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some fishing in This area is said to be a
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really good fishing spot. Mike and his dad had camped
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and fished in the area at least several times, if
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not lots of times before, and I'm not sure if
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they always stayed at that same campground, But either way,
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he was going somewhere where he wasn't in unfamiliar terrain, right,
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he definitely had experience and familiarity with this place. On
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August twelfth, his friends arrived at the campground just after
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two in the morning, which is definitely not an ideal
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time of night to be driving through the woods. But
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thinking back to going anywhere with a group in later
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teens early twenties, I feel like that is just the
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way it goes, because somebody always has to work late.
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They forgot to ask a Friday night off, so they
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had to work till ten o'clock, and then you have
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to jenga everybody's gear because they probably didn't pack in advance,
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so it was like scramble at the end of the night,
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get in the car, drive a couple hours.
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Did you mean Tetris?
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Yeah?
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When I say Jena, yeah, I mean I still like that,
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but taking it out is like Jenda.
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Absolutely, packing it like Tetris, trying to unload it like Jenga.
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Yup, and they figured, since Mike had already gotten a
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head start, at least the camp would be somewhat situated
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and they could roll in and then set up whatever
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else need to be done in the morning. They made
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their way to the spot, but when they got there,
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Mike wasn't there. They looked around and it was very
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apparent that Matilda wasn't around either.
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Which if they had, if they had shown up during
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the day or just more reasonable hours, I could see
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that being less concerning because oh, he could just be
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venturing out somewhere in the area, but showing up at
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two am, he should be there.
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And they knew this was the right spot because there
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was a freshly made fire and they did identify year
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at the site as belonging to Mike, and the fire
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was fresh enough that it seemed like someone had likely
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recently been sitting there, not long before they arrived.
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Okay, so there was remnants of a freshly put out fire,
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there was some gear there, but Mike, Matilda, and the
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car were currently gone.
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So here's the thing. About the car.
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None of the sources specifically mention the vehicle detail, which
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is huge to me. If the car is still of
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the campsite when the friends arrive, that would have ruled
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out the idea that Mike was nearby. But if it
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wasn't there, that opens a whole other set of questions.
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All of the sources that I saw, they consistently said
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there was a freshly made fire and Mike's gear there,
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which is just so weird. Yeah, the car and license
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plate weren't listed on any of the missing Persons sites,
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so I have to assume based on that the vehicle
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was accounted for, whether it was at the campsite that
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night or found shortly thereafter, because in other cases we've
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covered where people have just disappeared, their vehicles are listed
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along their license plate. So I think if the car
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wasn't accounted for, it would be mentioned. But yeah, but
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it's not really spelled out in anything that I saw,
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whether it was there or not there, which would have
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been really helpful to know. If the car was there,
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I would say their car was still here, versus like, oh,
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I see they're cooler in their backpacker here, right, So
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I just thought that was kind of a strange detail
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or lack of detail. As the friends were starting to
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wonder where Mike, like really wonder where Mike was, and
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they were probably unloading some of their gear, just kind
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of assessing the situation. A man walks out of the woods,
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just emerging from the darkness, and if that's not creepy enough,
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he was also carrying a forty five automatic pistol.
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Super suspicious.
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Mm hmm, yep.
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I mean, a stranger lurking at the edge of the
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woods in the middle of the night is pretty concerning
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in its own right.
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But then to be like, hey, I also have a gun.
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Great, and it's right near where your friend is supposed
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to be set up for camp and they're missing, and
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all of that together just probably doesn't sit well.
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No, very uncomfortable. The first thing this guy says to
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Mike's friends was are you looking for Mikey? And that
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immediately felt weird to his friends because Mike never went
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by Mikey. That wasn't his nickname. His friends had never
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heard anybody refer.
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To him as Mikey. He was Michael or Mike. That's it.
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Yeah, I call my brother Mikey when I'm trying to
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be irritating, but nobody else calls him that.
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I don't think.
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Well, if I showed up to a campsite that you're
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supposed to be at and some man comes out of
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the woods with a gun and says you look him
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for Danny, I'd be like, uh.
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Who excuse you?
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Yeah, this whole situation is so weird. For the next
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six hours, while Mike's friends were waiting at the campsite
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hoping that Mike was going to return, this guy, who
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was later identified as Joseph Tyne, was just hanging out
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throughout those six hours. He was just hanging out. He
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repeatedly was cocking the gun. He never pointed at anybody,
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he never fired it, just casually cocking his gun.
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Yeah, weird.
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I don't know any setting where that would be not
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unsettling because it's like it's like, okay, like if.
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We were sitting around like daylight of the campfire, No,
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it's still be weird.
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Yeah. Absolutely.
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Mike's friends also noticed that it looked like this guy
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appeared to be wearing Mike's boots.
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So many things are just not yeah giving me good
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like feelings about this now.
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They would later report that detail to the police when
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they would ultimately report Mike missing in the daylight hours,
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but it was never confirmed if the boots the man
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was wearing belonged to Mike or not, which okay, what
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if they're just tan.
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Like kind of like work boot style like Timberlain.
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Like, yeah, like a very like common or popular type
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of boot, or just a very kind of generic type
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of boot.
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Right, I'm sure you can picture winter ll Bean boots
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right those look like I mean, tons of other brands
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have boots that look just like that, and tons of
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people have probably even the same brand. But still, it
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was unnerving enough that they noted it. I find it
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very strange. But there were no additional details about what
249
00:13:46.159 --> 00:13:49.879
transpired that night while everyone just sat around in the darkness,
250
00:13:49.960 --> 00:13:55.440
while Mike was Mia and this stranger Joseph played with
251
00:13:55.480 --> 00:14:01.399
his gun and hung around uninvited, Like, I need to
252
00:14:01.440 --> 00:14:03.600
know what was going on? Did they ask him to
253
00:14:03.720 --> 00:14:07.759
leave and he didn't? Did they just hope that he
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00:14:07.799 --> 00:14:11.320
would leave? Did they have campfire chats to get to
255
00:14:11.320 --> 00:14:13.720
know each other? Like, what was happening? That's a long time.
256
00:14:14.559 --> 00:14:17.039
It is a long time. And the fact that he
257
00:14:17.200 --> 00:14:21.720
referred to him as Mikey I would be grilling him
258
00:14:21.919 --> 00:14:25.879
on other details to be like, was that just did
259
00:14:25.919 --> 00:14:28.080
they meet each other in passing so he just caught
260
00:14:28.120 --> 00:14:31.960
his name in that way, or did he actually encounter
261
00:14:32.080 --> 00:14:36.399
my friend and has more information and knows more about him,
262
00:14:37.159 --> 00:14:39.320
And do I need to get out of here and
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00:14:39.360 --> 00:14:39.919
report this.
264
00:14:40.200 --> 00:14:43.320
I'm unsure if the friends were just because he had
265
00:14:43.600 --> 00:14:48.240
a gun, just very uncomfortable and they didn't want.
266
00:14:48.039 --> 00:14:52.919
To push this guy, which I think is fair. You know,
267
00:14:53.000 --> 00:14:55.879
did somebody like say like, oh, so tired, we should
268
00:14:55.919 --> 00:14:58.679
turn in and he was like, no, We're staying up.
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00:14:59.000 --> 00:14:59.480
I don't know.
270
00:15:00.000 --> 00:15:06.080
I want more information about this whole situation, the social setting.
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00:15:07.440 --> 00:15:11.600
I want to know about the uncomfortable trying to get
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00:15:11.639 --> 00:15:14.240
somebody to leave without asking them to leave.
273
00:15:14.799 --> 00:15:16.399
Yeah, you want to be a fly on the wall
274
00:15:16.440 --> 00:15:19.039
of this hole of how this all unfolded.
275
00:15:19.399 --> 00:15:21.679
Yeah, what's reported missing?
276
00:15:21.879 --> 00:15:26.000
The Sheriff's apartment responded with a search and rescue team
277
00:15:26.320 --> 00:15:29.240
or several search and rescue teams. They brought in divers,
278
00:15:29.240 --> 00:15:34.240
they brought in dogs, but despite an extensive search, nothing
279
00:15:34.320 --> 00:15:38.639
was found, not even any footprints that could have told
280
00:15:38.639 --> 00:15:41.360
them which direction Mike could have gone in.
281
00:15:41.759 --> 00:15:44.200
There was nothing to indicate what could have happened.
282
00:15:44.679 --> 00:15:49.559
Four days after Mike disappeared, Matilda returned to the campsite.
283
00:15:49.960 --> 00:15:54.440
She was definitely dehydrated, and it sounds like she was
284
00:15:55.320 --> 00:15:59.759
kind of out of sorts. I saw her described as disoriented,
285
00:16:00.360 --> 00:16:03.720
which I was trying to decide if a dog can
286
00:16:03.759 --> 00:16:07.200
really be disoriented, But I guess yeah.
287
00:16:07.200 --> 00:16:09.360
I mean, it's impressive that she made it back to
288
00:16:09.639 --> 00:16:11.840
this campsite. I mean, we don't know where she was.
289
00:16:12.320 --> 00:16:14.919
I assume we're not privy to that at least yet.
290
00:16:14.960 --> 00:16:17.600
But she could only be so disoriented if she was
291
00:16:17.639 --> 00:16:20.840
able to find her way back to where she was.
292
00:16:22.240 --> 00:16:27.120
But if she's dehydrated, if she's emaciated, and if she
293
00:16:27.559 --> 00:16:31.080
saw something happen to her owner, and she's coming back
294
00:16:31.120 --> 00:16:35.360
sort of acting restless or agitated or just something that
295
00:16:35.519 --> 00:16:38.480
seems out of character, maybe that's what it's referring to.
296
00:16:38.840 --> 00:16:42.799
Yeah, that's kind of how I interpreted it because I'm like, Okay, well,
297
00:16:42.879 --> 00:16:44.960
if she made it back to camp, she was pretty
298
00:16:45.159 --> 00:16:50.559
well oriented in my opinion, but out of sorts or distressed, Yeah,
299
00:16:50.639 --> 00:16:55.039
I think those words probably make more sense. Yeah, of course,
300
00:16:55.039 --> 00:16:58.799
searchers were hoping that she could lead them back to
301
00:16:58.879 --> 00:17:02.360
wherever mic was, and they tried to get her to
302
00:17:02.480 --> 00:17:05.920
do that, but there's no luck. The dog had returned,
303
00:17:06.279 --> 00:17:11.000
but Mike didn't. She had survived whatever happened and made
304
00:17:11.000 --> 00:17:13.920
it back to camp on her own. I know a
305
00:17:13.960 --> 00:17:16.440
lot of people would love to be able to communicate
306
00:17:16.519 --> 00:17:19.799
with animals, just to have a chat with them, but
307
00:17:19.920 --> 00:17:24.079
I'm sure in these situations it must be so frustrating
308
00:17:24.279 --> 00:17:29.200
to have a witness to whatever happened. Whether it was
309
00:17:30.000 --> 00:17:33.799
an accident or Mike did leave on his own, we
310
00:17:33.880 --> 00:17:36.519
have no idea, but it would be great if his
311
00:17:36.680 --> 00:17:38.519
dog could share what happened.
312
00:17:38.920 --> 00:17:39.559
Yeah.
313
00:17:39.599 --> 00:17:43.720
There are also accounts from Mike's brother suggesting that there
314
00:17:43.799 --> 00:17:47.599
was at least one witness who reported that Mike was
315
00:17:47.640 --> 00:17:52.599
actually seen at a cabin near Pinecrest, not Sandbar Flat,
316
00:17:52.720 --> 00:17:56.480
on the day he disappeared. That wasn't ever proven, but
317
00:17:57.359 --> 00:18:01.079
if that is true, it means whatever happened may not
318
00:18:01.119 --> 00:18:05.359
have started at the campsite, which means the point of
319
00:18:05.440 --> 00:18:08.440
origin for the search may have been off. I'm not
320
00:18:08.480 --> 00:18:13.559
really sure what the distance between this cabin and the
321
00:18:13.599 --> 00:18:18.160
campsite would have been, but in a search like that,
322
00:18:19.039 --> 00:18:22.359
not having the correct starting point obviously can make a
323
00:18:22.359 --> 00:18:26.880
big difference. Right, Nine months after Mike vanished, investigators gave
324
00:18:27.200 --> 00:18:31.680
Joseph Tyne a polygraph. The results were never made public,
325
00:18:31.759 --> 00:18:35.039
and he was never charged in connection with Mike's disappearance.
326
00:18:35.920 --> 00:18:41.440
So presumably, I don't know, you can't really get anything
327
00:18:41.480 --> 00:18:44.200
just because just because you fail a polygraph doesn't mean
328
00:18:45.119 --> 00:18:47.880
they have any additional they have any evidence against you.
329
00:18:48.519 --> 00:18:51.359
Yeah, And then like I go back to the boots.
330
00:18:51.960 --> 00:18:56.039
Of course, you can't just hijack someone's boots just because
331
00:18:56.079 --> 00:18:59.839
they look like someone you know, like, but it I'd
332
00:18:59.880 --> 00:19:02.799
be interested if they had been able to DNA test
333
00:19:02.880 --> 00:19:05.240
those boots that he was wearing, if they would have
334
00:19:05.480 --> 00:19:07.920
had Mike's DNA on them, you.
335
00:19:07.880 --> 00:19:11.599
Know, or even just check the size, right.
336
00:19:11.559 --> 00:19:14.079
Like anything to officially be able to rule them out
337
00:19:14.119 --> 00:19:16.480
as belonging to him or not. Right.
338
00:19:17.240 --> 00:19:21.519
Records indicated that his gun was checked and no shells
339
00:19:21.559 --> 00:19:24.400
had been spent at the time of Mike's disappearance, although
340
00:19:24.400 --> 00:19:27.880
I don't know how that could be proven because couldn't
341
00:19:27.920 --> 00:19:28.839
he have just reloaded.
342
00:19:29.319 --> 00:19:34.160
I think there's probably more trace evidence with a firearm
343
00:19:34.200 --> 00:19:35.839
where they'd be able to see.
344
00:19:36.160 --> 00:19:41.279
They didn't say, there was no mention of them doing
345
00:19:41.319 --> 00:19:45.480
any GSR testing, which which I would think would be
346
00:19:45.559 --> 00:19:50.079
more relevant to has this gun been recently fired than
347
00:19:50.799 --> 00:19:54.720
do or all the bullets accounted for, because somebody could reload.
348
00:19:55.480 --> 00:20:01.480
Yeah. But also if there was an encounter between him
349
00:20:01.559 --> 00:20:05.680
and Mike and there was foul play involved, he could
350
00:20:05.720 --> 00:20:11.559
have even just used that gun as intimidation, yeah, to
351
00:20:11.720 --> 00:20:14.200
get Mike to do what he wanted him to do,
352
00:20:14.279 --> 00:20:16.960
without needing to actually fire any rounds.
353
00:20:17.480 --> 00:20:18.640
After no new.
354
00:20:18.519 --> 00:20:22.039
Information came to light, investigators did ultimately say that they
355
00:20:22.119 --> 00:20:24.240
believed that Mike was the victim of foul play and
356
00:20:24.440 --> 00:20:28.319
likely dead. Investigators have never closed the case, but without
357
00:20:28.400 --> 00:20:33.480
any new information, the case went cold. Since his disappearance,
358
00:20:33.599 --> 00:20:40.559
few distinct theories have emerged online and elsewhere about what
359
00:20:40.640 --> 00:20:44.160
may have happened to Mike. The first one, obviously being
360
00:20:44.400 --> 00:20:49.440
Joseph Tyne, is probably the biggest, most discussed theory for
361
00:20:49.559 --> 00:20:52.400
good reason. A man appears in the middle of the
362
00:20:52.440 --> 00:20:55.519
night when your friend happens to be missing from where
363
00:20:55.559 --> 00:21:01.319
they should be. This guy has a gun, using a
364
00:21:01.440 --> 00:21:05.799
nickname very close to your missing friend's name, and possibly
365
00:21:05.839 --> 00:21:10.200
wearing the missing person's boots, and then spend six hours
366
00:21:10.279 --> 00:21:11.559
uncomfortably hanging around.
367
00:21:12.640 --> 00:21:19.839
I do say that's that's a weird situation. Yeah, that's suspicious,
368
00:21:19.880 --> 00:21:20.799
and rightfully so.
369
00:21:21.160 --> 00:21:24.079
That's not behavior that would be typical of someone who
370
00:21:25.119 --> 00:21:27.720
just stumbled onto the wrong campsite.
371
00:21:28.079 --> 00:21:31.640
Well, also, if someone just came out of the woodworks
372
00:21:31.680 --> 00:21:36.160
like that and your friend is missing, wouldn't you want
373
00:21:36.200 --> 00:21:40.079
to be out looking for him? And would that person
374
00:21:40.160 --> 00:21:41.519
join in and be like, oh, I mean, I can
375
00:21:41.640 --> 00:21:44.480
help you look for your friend. I give a little
376
00:21:44.480 --> 00:21:47.839
bit of inside like I didn't see him, I've been
377
00:21:47.880 --> 00:21:50.599
out here since whatever time, or I did see him,
378
00:21:50.640 --> 00:21:53.480
but that was like five hours ago and I saw
379
00:21:53.680 --> 00:21:58.119
walking in this direction, or as you said, I'm so
380
00:21:58.279 --> 00:22:01.960
curious what happened in those six hours.
381
00:22:01.960 --> 00:22:06.920
Right, because I would likely want to continue looking for
382
00:22:07.000 --> 00:22:10.559
my friend or calling for my friend. And I do
383
00:22:10.720 --> 00:22:16.599
wonder if perhaps prior to Joseph emerging from the woods,
384
00:22:16.640 --> 00:22:21.079
if they were calling out for Mike or calling for
385
00:22:21.200 --> 00:22:28.519
Matilda even and did he hear the people calling and
386
00:22:29.400 --> 00:22:34.160
did he misshear Michael or Mike or Matilda and get mikey.
387
00:22:33.880 --> 00:22:34.319
Out of that.
388
00:22:35.079 --> 00:22:38.720
Yeah, but again, like I don't know, there's just there's
389
00:22:38.759 --> 00:22:41.400
just not enough information. It's very weird because even if
390
00:22:41.400 --> 00:22:43.599
you were like, oh, hey, you sound like you're distressed.
391
00:22:43.599 --> 00:22:47.200
I hear you calling for someone, Then what are you
392
00:22:47.240 --> 00:22:47.799
gonna help them?
393
00:22:47.839 --> 00:22:49.880
Or are you just gonna lurk?
394
00:22:50.400 --> 00:22:50.920
Exactly?
395
00:22:51.480 --> 00:22:55.359
Investigators clearly felt that this behavior was suspicious enough to
396
00:22:56.079 --> 00:23:01.119
administer a polygraph test, but again there were were never released,
397
00:23:01.200 --> 00:23:04.559
so we really have no idea if that works for
398
00:23:04.839 --> 00:23:09.319
or against him, right, and the absence of spent shells
399
00:23:09.359 --> 00:23:11.440
in his gun doesn't.
400
00:23:11.119 --> 00:23:11.839
Really clear him.
401
00:23:11.880 --> 00:23:14.599
It just means if something did happen, it may not
402
00:23:14.680 --> 00:23:16.599
have involved a gun. Like you said, he may have
403
00:23:16.640 --> 00:23:22.160
just used it for coercion versus utilizing it as using
404
00:23:22.200 --> 00:23:22.799
it like a gun.
405
00:23:22.839 --> 00:23:24.680
I guess I didn't see.
406
00:23:24.440 --> 00:23:28.279
A description or a physical description of Joseph, but Mike
407
00:23:28.400 --> 00:23:30.519
wasn't a small guy. He was around six to one
408
00:23:31.920 --> 00:23:36.759
two hundred pounds, so the presence of a gun can
409
00:23:36.839 --> 00:23:44.359
obviously make a size difference disappear if you are the
410
00:23:44.519 --> 00:23:46.160
smaller person with a weapon.
411
00:23:46.680 --> 00:23:51.759
So how busy was this campground? Was it an established campground?
412
00:23:51.960 --> 00:23:54.880
Was it like a kind of more primitive or dispersed
413
00:23:54.960 --> 00:23:56.720
camp site or campground?
414
00:23:56.759 --> 00:23:59.759
So at least currently it's one.
415
00:23:59.599 --> 00:24:03.319
Of those first come, first serve I think it's like,
416
00:24:04.079 --> 00:24:07.720
I don't know, really cheap, like twelve dollars or something
417
00:24:07.759 --> 00:24:09.839
really really inexpensive.
418
00:24:10.279 --> 00:24:13.000
I think it is on the smaller side.
419
00:24:13.519 --> 00:24:18.920
But I didn't see any indication as to how busy
420
00:24:18.960 --> 00:24:23.079
it was this particular night. I did see people in
421
00:24:23.119 --> 00:24:26.160
the last few years talking about how the weekends now
422
00:24:26.319 --> 00:24:31.079
are really busy and suggesting like go during the week
423
00:24:31.079 --> 00:24:33.559
if you want to avoid people, But I don't know
424
00:24:33.720 --> 00:24:34.880
in nineteen ninety six.
425
00:24:34.839 --> 00:24:38.559
Was that the same situation, right, Okay, so yeah, I
426
00:24:38.640 --> 00:24:43.000
was curious if there were other campers out there that
427
00:24:43.119 --> 00:24:46.519
night as well who had seen anything or heard anything.
428
00:24:46.640 --> 00:24:48.079
Yeah, it's a pretty basic campground.
429
00:24:48.119 --> 00:24:52.799
I think there is water on site and outhouses, but
430
00:24:53.680 --> 00:24:56.799
there's not. I didn't see anything about like running showers
431
00:24:56.960 --> 00:24:59.240
or any other amenities.
432
00:24:59.319 --> 00:24:59.960
Just very big.
433
00:25:00.920 --> 00:25:03.880
Okay, Obviously it is possible that Mike had an accident
434
00:25:03.920 --> 00:25:08.640
of some kind. Santaslav's National Forest is very rugged. It
435
00:25:08.680 --> 00:25:14.720
has that river cut terrain, and that river runs cold
436
00:25:15.000 --> 00:25:17.400
and fast. We know how easy it can be to
437
00:25:17.599 --> 00:25:22.400
slip on any type of wet rock, and it can
438
00:25:22.480 --> 00:25:26.119
be very difficult to self rescue once someone's in the water.
439
00:25:26.599 --> 00:25:30.079
Several people even noted in their Yelp reviews of this
440
00:25:30.200 --> 00:25:33.960
campground that they felt that this was not a campground
441
00:25:34.200 --> 00:25:39.359
for families with kids. Somebody else even noted that dogs
442
00:25:39.480 --> 00:25:41.799
should be kept on a leash because of how dangerous
443
00:25:41.839 --> 00:25:46.079
this river was. So or is oh, I think this
444
00:25:46.119 --> 00:25:48.720
is the first time that I've read a review of
445
00:25:48.759 --> 00:25:52.839
a campground and had people say make sure your dog's
446
00:25:52.839 --> 00:25:54.519
on a leash, or don't bring your dog and just
447
00:25:54.559 --> 00:25:55.400
don't bring your kids.
448
00:25:55.839 --> 00:26:00.559
Yikes. Yeah, that's pretty telling as to like you said, dangerous,
449
00:26:00.599 --> 00:26:01.599
it could potentially be.
450
00:26:02.039 --> 00:26:05.599
It's also mentioned that the access road to the campground
451
00:26:05.759 --> 00:26:09.400
is a very tough drive and shouldn't be attempted at night,
452
00:26:09.680 --> 00:26:14.200
which I found interesting because we know Mike's friends arrived
453
00:26:14.200 --> 00:26:17.160
in the middle of the nite, and even without the river,
454
00:26:17.480 --> 00:26:21.240
this forest is definitely big enough that search teams evel
455
00:26:21.279 --> 00:26:26.000
with dogs could have missed something. Sources indicated the search
456
00:26:26.119 --> 00:26:30.079
was extensive, but there were very few details available about
457
00:26:30.079 --> 00:26:33.759
the search itself, so it's really hard to say if
458
00:26:33.759 --> 00:26:37.880
it was well executed or really was extensive because there
459
00:26:37.920 --> 00:26:39.519
was just no details. A lot of times we hear
460
00:26:39.680 --> 00:26:42.200
the search was X amount of days, and this many
461
00:26:42.200 --> 00:26:44.759
agencies and this many people but I didn't have any
462
00:26:45.599 --> 00:26:47.640
stats like that on this case.
463
00:26:48.200 --> 00:26:50.880
Okay, they were like, we did a good job. Trust us.
464
00:26:51.200 --> 00:26:52.200
You don't need more than that.
465
00:26:53.119 --> 00:26:54.839
I'm not saying they didn't do a good job, but
466
00:26:55.680 --> 00:26:59.119
there was just no additional information to make me agree
467
00:26:59.200 --> 00:27:00.440
that it was a good job.
468
00:27:00.880 --> 00:27:04.039
Well, sometimes you'll go on to different agency sites, whether
469
00:27:04.079 --> 00:27:07.000
they're sharing on social media, whether it's news headlines that
470
00:27:07.039 --> 00:27:09.960
are keeping up with the status of a search or
471
00:27:10.039 --> 00:27:13.160
progress of a search, or even like the National Park Service,
472
00:27:13.440 --> 00:27:16.480
they'll update their bulletins if there's an active search going on,
473
00:27:17.000 --> 00:27:20.240
and so you actually get those details where they'll talk
474
00:27:20.279 --> 00:27:23.559
about the different agencies that were involved, the weather that
475
00:27:23.599 --> 00:27:27.160
they were dealing with, the times that it started. Like,
476
00:27:27.200 --> 00:27:31.000
they can get really detail oriented, which adds a lot
477
00:27:31.000 --> 00:27:36.200
of helpful context to these missing persons cases. And so
478
00:27:36.920 --> 00:27:39.799
when you come across one like this where they're just like, yeah,
479
00:27:39.799 --> 00:27:45.400
we searched, You're like, okay, but can you give more right?
480
00:27:45.799 --> 00:27:46.680
And I do wonder.
481
00:27:47.279 --> 00:27:52.039
I mean, obviously nineteen ninety six was pre social media, but.
482
00:27:54.000 --> 00:27:55.039
I do wonder.
483
00:27:55.960 --> 00:27:58.720
The statistics are that the majority of missing people are
484
00:27:58.759 --> 00:28:03.519
found within twenty four hours, and then even more are
485
00:28:03.519 --> 00:28:06.279
found within the first forty eight hours in these situations.
486
00:28:06.799 --> 00:28:09.599
So I do wonder if it was one of those
487
00:28:09.599 --> 00:28:12.480
situations where they're like, oh, we'll find them, we'll find them,
488
00:28:12.839 --> 00:28:15.680
and they weren't expecting to have to.
489
00:28:17.440 --> 00:28:20.279
Report to the media or do anything of that nature.
490
00:28:20.519 --> 00:28:24.839
And I think now people kind of gather more information
491
00:28:25.960 --> 00:28:28.519
expecting to have to share it or wanting to share
492
00:28:28.559 --> 00:28:30.599
it at some point, but maybe that just wasn't the
493
00:28:30.599 --> 00:28:32.279
case here. They were like, you know what, We're gonna
494
00:28:32.279 --> 00:28:33.920
find this guy in a couple hours and that's going
495
00:28:33.960 --> 00:28:34.319
to be it.
496
00:28:34.680 --> 00:28:36.200
So there's plenty.
497
00:28:35.839 --> 00:28:40.960
Of situations where this could have been an unfortunate accident
498
00:28:41.359 --> 00:28:45.400
that Mike just befel, some sort of misadventure.
499
00:28:45.680 --> 00:28:49.200
But the problem with that is Joseph Time.
500
00:28:49.400 --> 00:28:53.039
You can explain a ray, explain away pretty much everything else.
501
00:28:53.200 --> 00:28:56.759
But for us to believe that it.
502
00:28:56.839 --> 00:29:01.519
Was just an accident, we would have to then assume
503
00:29:01.599 --> 00:29:05.480
that Joseph Time coming out of the woods at Mike's
504
00:29:05.480 --> 00:29:07.640
campsite is just a coincidence.
505
00:29:08.319 --> 00:29:10.480
And also where did he come from, because if this
506
00:29:10.559 --> 00:29:14.039
is a remote area, you know, did he have a
507
00:29:14.079 --> 00:29:17.440
campsite set up somewhere? Was he just lurking in the
508
00:29:17.480 --> 00:29:20.920
woods looking for a crime of opportunity, just hoping that
509
00:29:21.039 --> 00:29:25.519
he'd come across someone who he felt comfortable overtaking. It's
510
00:29:25.640 --> 00:29:29.720
just so it's almost such like a bizarre circumstance. To
511
00:29:29.880 --> 00:29:31.440
try to make sense.
512
00:29:31.160 --> 00:29:34.240
Of this situation is just so very strange, because if
513
00:29:34.279 --> 00:29:37.119
you did just commit a crime, I don't know that
514
00:29:37.160 --> 00:29:40.920
you would be inclined to then hang around with the
515
00:29:41.079 --> 00:29:47.160
victim's friends or associates for the night, true.
516
00:29:47.200 --> 00:29:50.480
To then think about the people who commit a crime
517
00:29:50.880 --> 00:29:55.359
and then you see them like in the background of
518
00:29:55.400 --> 00:29:59.480
like the uh press releases and stuff, and they're like, yeah,
519
00:29:59.599 --> 00:30:03.559
that's that's my work. There are weirdos like that who
520
00:30:03.960 --> 00:30:06.319
do that. And so if he had done something, if
521
00:30:06.319 --> 00:30:09.359
he had he had something to do with what happened
522
00:30:09.400 --> 00:30:12.799
to Mike, and whether he intentionally came across the friends
523
00:30:12.920 --> 00:30:15.440
or not, then he's just sitting there kind of in
524
00:30:15.480 --> 00:30:20.680
a sick way, knowing that their friend is maybe dead somewhere,
525
00:30:20.720 --> 00:30:23.720
and he's just like besing with them at the campsite. Yeah,
526
00:30:23.759 --> 00:30:24.559
it's very more.
527
00:30:24.519 --> 00:30:28.000
Like, oh, do you guys have any s'mores? That sounds great.
528
00:30:28.759 --> 00:30:31.559
Yeah, it's a very like twisted mentality. But there are
529
00:30:31.640 --> 00:30:33.599
some there are some weirdos out there.
530
00:30:33.680 --> 00:30:38.880
So yeah, I also wondered if, potentially.
531
00:30:40.240 --> 00:30:43.960
If he was on housed and he was just living
532
00:30:44.640 --> 00:30:48.160
out in the woods, and perhaps there was some sort
533
00:30:48.200 --> 00:30:52.400
of mental health situation that was why he was out
534
00:30:52.440 --> 00:30:53.160
in the woods.
535
00:30:53.279 --> 00:30:56.200
Yeah, and that would he doesn't.
536
00:30:55.920 --> 00:30:59.559
Explain the hanging out for six hours, but.
537
00:31:01.119 --> 00:31:01.799
You know, if there was.
538
00:31:01.759 --> 00:31:06.279
Something undiagnosed or it could have been diagnosed going on,
539
00:31:07.160 --> 00:31:11.240
that would explain perhaps him not having any awareness that
540
00:31:11.319 --> 00:31:13.799
this was like a very weird and uncomfortable situation and
541
00:31:13.920 --> 00:31:19.039
you should leave right. But again, there was no details
542
00:31:19.200 --> 00:31:22.400
other than him cocking the gun and just hanging out.
543
00:31:22.640 --> 00:31:26.200
There was no description of his behavior or what they
544
00:31:26.319 --> 00:31:30.039
talked about, or his mannerisms or anything like that. Then
545
00:31:30.079 --> 00:31:35.279
there's the cabin near Pinecrest, which Mike's brother had said
546
00:31:35.279 --> 00:31:38.279
that a witness reported seeing Mike there at that cabin,
547
00:31:39.880 --> 00:31:44.960
And if that's accurate, we have a whole new set
548
00:31:45.000 --> 00:31:50.599
of questions. Who was at that cabin because Mike hadn't
549
00:31:50.599 --> 00:31:54.720
booked a cabin, Did Mike know who was there? Was
550
00:31:54.759 --> 00:31:58.559
he just in the area, did he encounter someone before
551
00:31:58.599 --> 00:32:02.480
getting back to the campsite. Did something happen at this
552
00:32:02.599 --> 00:32:06.799
other location, and police didn't know about it, so they
553
00:32:06.920 --> 00:32:09.880
weren't able to fully investigate.
554
00:32:09.960 --> 00:32:13.400
I don't know, Yeah, yeah, a lot of questions.
555
00:32:13.920 --> 00:32:22.000
Another theory is that of known killer Carrie Stainer. He
556
00:32:22.039 --> 00:32:28.200
operated in this general area of California for the years
557
00:32:28.240 --> 00:32:31.359
before he was arrested in nineteen ninety nine, so he
558
00:32:31.440 --> 00:32:34.400
obviously his crimes were committed prior to that.
559
00:32:35.599 --> 00:32:39.640
I think he killed four people in Yosemite area, and.
560
00:32:39.759 --> 00:32:43.039
Investigators did look at a possible connection to Mike's case
561
00:32:43.160 --> 00:32:47.400
and several other unsolved disappearances and deaths in this area
562
00:32:47.519 --> 00:32:52.519
at this time. Both the geography and the timelines overlap,
563
00:32:52.839 --> 00:32:56.359
but there weren't any other connections to Mike's case, and
564
00:32:56.400 --> 00:33:03.039
the FBI agent who had taken the confession says that
565
00:33:03.119 --> 00:33:07.880
he didn't believe that Stayner had killed any more people
566
00:33:08.000 --> 00:33:10.440
than he had confessed to.
567
00:33:11.039 --> 00:33:13.279
Okay, And it's always interesting.
568
00:33:13.440 --> 00:33:18.279
Obviously this FBI agent or whoever probably had to develop
569
00:33:18.319 --> 00:33:21.079
some sort of relationship with this person.
570
00:33:21.279 --> 00:33:22.440
But it's always interesting when.
571
00:33:22.359 --> 00:33:24.480
They're like no, no, Like I know he's a killer
572
00:33:24.519 --> 00:33:27.000
and he lied to us before, but I believe him now.
573
00:33:27.440 --> 00:33:28.759
But I'm going to take his word for this.
574
00:33:29.160 --> 00:33:31.799
But I also I kind of feel like you do
575
00:33:31.880 --> 00:33:34.240
get a sense of when you're being lied to or
576
00:33:34.279 --> 00:33:37.079
when someone's telling the truth. And at some point, if
577
00:33:37.119 --> 00:33:41.960
you're going to jail for killing four people, admitting to
578
00:33:42.119 --> 00:33:45.559
killing additional victims is probably not going to change the
579
00:33:45.599 --> 00:33:49.240
outcome of your prison sentence, right. That's just my thought.
580
00:33:49.559 --> 00:33:52.000
But sometimes they like to play that power trip with
581
00:33:52.119 --> 00:33:54.880
authorities as well, because they're like, I do have information
582
00:33:54.960 --> 00:33:56.640
on more, but I'm not going to give it to you,
583
00:33:56.680 --> 00:33:58.000
And what are you going to do about it? I'm
584
00:33:58.000 --> 00:34:01.559
already going to prison. You can't beat it out of me.
585
00:34:01.799 --> 00:34:04.279
So I'm sitting here on this information that you guys
586
00:34:04.319 --> 00:34:05.720
would do anything to get.
587
00:34:06.160 --> 00:34:09.400
Yeah, it's true, man, there's some crazy people out there.
588
00:34:09.880 --> 00:34:10.320
There are.
589
00:34:11.039 --> 00:34:16.239
With many missing details and the contradictory witness statements, this
590
00:34:16.360 --> 00:34:19.079
was a really tough case for me to come up
591
00:34:19.119 --> 00:34:21.679
with what I personally think happened.
592
00:34:21.800 --> 00:34:23.800
Do you have a gut feeling at all?
593
00:34:24.239 --> 00:34:26.320
I don't want to make the bold assumption that this
594
00:34:26.360 --> 00:34:31.119
guy had anything. What was his first name again, Joseph, Joseph,
595
00:34:31.440 --> 00:34:32.119
we could call it.
596
00:34:32.639 --> 00:34:34.360
I should have called him Joey. I don't know if
597
00:34:34.400 --> 00:34:36.760
he went by Joey, But Mike didn't go by Mikey, So.
598
00:34:37.239 --> 00:34:39.519
Yeah, come up with your own nickname for him. So
599
00:34:41.440 --> 00:34:43.880
I don't want to just assume the worst, like he
600
00:34:44.000 --> 00:34:47.760
had something to do with what happened to Mike, but
601
00:34:48.360 --> 00:34:51.360
you'd also like to I mean, even when there's no
602
00:34:51.599 --> 00:34:54.679
other party involved. Obviously, people go hiking or camping and
603
00:34:54.719 --> 00:34:56.760
are never seen again and there's no trace of them.
604
00:34:57.159 --> 00:35:00.960
I'd love to know the status of the vehicle. I'd
605
00:35:00.960 --> 00:35:06.719
love to know the search radius, you know, the thoroughness
606
00:35:06.760 --> 00:35:10.360
of the search. Did he go for like a little
607
00:35:10.440 --> 00:35:14.840
daytime hike or walk about with Matilda waiting because he
608
00:35:14.880 --> 00:35:16.280
knew his friends were going to get there that night,
609
00:35:16.320 --> 00:35:19.599
but then something happened, and then it was just pure
610
00:35:19.639 --> 00:35:22.800
coincidence that Joseph comes out of the woods near the
611
00:35:22.840 --> 00:35:26.559
campsite after he's not returned. I don't know, there's just
612
00:35:26.599 --> 00:35:29.639
like there's a lot to speculate on, and you know,
613
00:35:29.719 --> 00:35:33.119
I'm hesitant to to lean into that, but it's it's.
614
00:35:33.039 --> 00:35:37.920
Very preceling, and it's it wouldn't be super unusual for
615
00:35:38.000 --> 00:35:42.079
someone to be carrying a gun in a very remote
616
00:35:42.280 --> 00:35:45.559
area like this. But when I think of people carrying
617
00:35:45.639 --> 00:35:48.000
a gun, I don't mean like carrying it in their
618
00:35:48.079 --> 00:35:51.920
hand like it is in a holster on their purse.
619
00:35:52.079 --> 00:35:56.360
That's a very different vibe than oh yeah, I'm just
620
00:35:56.360 --> 00:35:57.840
going to carry this in my hand.
621
00:35:58.559 --> 00:36:00.920
In my want at least, yeah, I want to know
622
00:36:00.960 --> 00:36:05.480
where Joseph came from, Like where had he been to
623
00:36:05.639 --> 00:36:10.119
find his way to this campsite. I'm curious about that,
624
00:36:10.360 --> 00:36:12.880
like if they were ever able to confirm that with him, Like, Hey,
625
00:36:13.039 --> 00:36:15.559
you kind of came out of the woods and that's fine,
626
00:36:15.719 --> 00:36:19.079
but where were you coming from and where are you staying?
627
00:36:19.239 --> 00:36:21.760
And if you were just walking through the woods at
628
00:36:21.760 --> 00:36:23.719
two am, why did you only have a gun and
629
00:36:23.760 --> 00:36:27.760
not gear that would help you navigate the woods at night.
630
00:36:27.840 --> 00:36:30.480
There's just it's a little a little suspicious.
631
00:36:31.199 --> 00:36:32.400
I had that same thought.
632
00:36:32.440 --> 00:36:36.039
Like five minutes before we sat down to your record,
633
00:36:36.360 --> 00:36:41.719
I searched just his name California, So I'm like, what's
634
00:36:41.760 --> 00:36:46.079
his story? Did he have any type of criminal history before?
635
00:36:47.280 --> 00:36:48.880
Did he after this incident?
636
00:36:49.559 --> 00:36:51.760
You know, I was trying to find more about him,
637
00:36:52.159 --> 00:36:55.000
and I didn't really get a whole lot more about him,
638
00:36:55.079 --> 00:36:58.599
but I did come across an article that I quickly
639
00:36:58.960 --> 00:37:04.039
read through, and this article gives a totally different account
640
00:37:04.559 --> 00:37:06.920
of first of all, how the friends ended up at
641
00:37:06.960 --> 00:37:11.239
the campsite. This article says that it was a surprise visit,
642
00:37:11.440 --> 00:37:14.920
that the friends are like out looking for meteors and
643
00:37:14.960 --> 00:37:17.199
they were on the same road, so they just thought
644
00:37:17.199 --> 00:37:21.719
they would stop by the campground. But based on how
645
00:37:22.639 --> 00:37:25.679
this location is described, it's not a place that you're
646
00:37:25.719 --> 00:37:27.679
just like, oh, I'm just gonna stop by.
647
00:37:28.840 --> 00:37:31.880
You're either going there or you're not right.
648
00:37:32.039 --> 00:37:34.679
And if they were just stopping by, did they pack
649
00:37:34.760 --> 00:37:36.920
their car, were they planning on staying out there, or
650
00:37:36.960 --> 00:37:39.400
was it literally a pit stop out in the woods
651
00:37:39.440 --> 00:37:41.440
to visit your friend who you know is camping out there.
652
00:37:41.800 --> 00:37:42.559
It would also.
653
00:37:43.320 --> 00:37:45.199
Also be weird. It's nineteen ninety six.
654
00:37:45.880 --> 00:37:48.559
You can't text your friend and say like, hey, you're coming,
655
00:37:48.840 --> 00:37:52.320
You can't call, you can't stalk them on find my friends.
656
00:37:52.480 --> 00:37:55.840
So you're just gonna ride through this camp ground in
657
00:37:55.920 --> 00:37:58.440
the dark, hoping you can find your friend's campsite.
658
00:37:59.199 --> 00:38:01.840
Yeah, it's all a bit I don't know it was
659
00:38:01.840 --> 00:38:02.440
it strange?
660
00:38:02.960 --> 00:38:07.039
Yeah, And this article also indicated that the family was
661
00:38:07.079 --> 00:38:11.679
suspicious of the friends, and that maybe even.
662
00:38:11.519 --> 00:38:13.519
Mike's father was involved somehow.
663
00:38:13.960 --> 00:38:15.920
So I do want to go back and read through
664
00:38:15.960 --> 00:38:21.679
this article again, but I initially scrolled right to the
665
00:38:21.679 --> 00:38:24.519
battom and I was like, do they list their sources?
666
00:38:24.519 --> 00:38:26.639
So I'm like, where did they get this information? And
667
00:38:26.679 --> 00:38:30.679
there's no sources listed. So I am going to go
668
00:38:30.719 --> 00:38:33.000
back and read through it again and maybe I'll post
669
00:38:33.039 --> 00:38:35.239
it to Patreon. Maybe we'll do like one of those
670
00:38:35.280 --> 00:38:40.519
anybody can access posts, because this article had completely different
671
00:38:40.559 --> 00:38:44.239
information than any of the other things that.
672
00:38:44.199 --> 00:38:44.960
I had read.
673
00:38:45.039 --> 00:38:47.679
Because I did think it was very strange that none
674
00:38:47.719 --> 00:38:49.960
of the articles indicated how many friends were there.
675
00:38:49.960 --> 00:38:51.000
They're just friends.
676
00:38:51.639 --> 00:38:58.039
There was one strange outdoors article that mentioned one of
677
00:38:58.039 --> 00:39:02.880
the friends' names, but nowhere else did I see how
678
00:39:02.960 --> 00:39:04.679
many friends.
679
00:39:04.280 --> 00:39:10.039
No one's name was listed, which I thought was not
680
00:39:10.159 --> 00:39:11.599
totally unusual, but.
681
00:39:13.119 --> 00:39:17.400
Typically you at least get he had three friends, or
682
00:39:17.760 --> 00:39:19.320
I don't know, at least a little.
683
00:39:19.039 --> 00:39:25.159
More detail than the no detail that this case seemed
684
00:39:25.840 --> 00:39:29.960
to have. So I will share this on.
685
00:39:31.280 --> 00:39:37.400
Patreon and maybe we can have a discussion there because
686
00:39:37.480 --> 00:39:39.840
this article, I'm like, is this even the same case,
687
00:39:40.519 --> 00:39:43.960
because this is totally different than everything I had read
688
00:39:44.480 --> 00:39:47.679
prior to, you know, the ten minutes before we're going
689
00:39:47.719 --> 00:39:48.239
to record.
690
00:39:48.760 --> 00:39:51.960
Yeah, yeah, i'd be curious to hear what other people think.
691
00:39:52.920 --> 00:39:54.559
Mike Madden was twenty years old.
692
00:39:54.920 --> 00:39:57.360
He had left a note, he had taken his dog,
693
00:39:57.920 --> 00:40:01.159
and he'd gone somewhere he loved or he had been before,
694
00:40:01.360 --> 00:40:05.199
somewhere that likely felt very safe to him. His domains
695
00:40:05.199 --> 00:40:08.079
have never been found, and his case is still open.
696
00:40:09.079 --> 00:40:12.119
His mother passed away in two thousand and four, and
697
00:40:12.159 --> 00:40:16.480
then his father died in two thousand and eight. Interestingly,
698
00:40:17.000 --> 00:40:22.119
his mother's obituary listed Mike as a survivor, and his
699
00:40:22.159 --> 00:40:25.559
father's listed him as being predeceased.
700
00:40:25.800 --> 00:40:28.360
So I thought that was interesting.
701
00:40:29.239 --> 00:40:33.679
I do really like obituaries. I know that's a very
702
00:40:33.679 --> 00:40:38.000
weird thing to say, but I just think they tell
703
00:40:38.639 --> 00:40:41.159
you can tell a lot about a person by the
704
00:40:41.199 --> 00:40:45.960
way their loved ones have basically summarized their lives.
705
00:40:46.360 --> 00:40:50.000
Yes, absolutely, sometimes in a good way and sometimes not
706
00:40:50.079 --> 00:40:50.480
so much.
707
00:40:51.840 --> 00:40:57.320
So it is interesting that perhaps whoever wrote these obituaries
708
00:40:57.519 --> 00:41:02.440
knew that each parent had a different view of what
709
00:41:02.519 --> 00:41:04.679
happened to Mike or where Mike was.
710
00:41:05.199 --> 00:41:11.000
Yeah, well that is definitely a puzzling one. So if
711
00:41:11.039 --> 00:41:17.320
you have any thoughts or opinions or more information on it, yeah,
712
00:41:17.639 --> 00:41:22.320
you feel free to, you know, comment. Where you listen
713
00:41:22.800 --> 00:41:25.000
or reach out to us on socials and we'd love
714
00:41:25.000 --> 00:41:25.480
to hear it.
715
00:41:25.960 --> 00:41:28.000
I think this would be a really good case for
716
00:41:28.519 --> 00:41:33.519
people to share their thoughts or theories, and it's a
717
00:41:33.519 --> 00:41:34.840
good one to kind of have a discussion.
718
00:41:35.360 --> 00:41:38.960
Yeah, all right, all right, Well until next time.