WEBVTT
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Driver off the deck for coin cost is driver off the deck.
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Victor Hoplin.
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The driver off the deck.
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I think you would try this, right?
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Oh my god.
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You have to put your foot on the gas.
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You pull out the driver off the deck and you put it on the drain all the way up the hill.
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Welcome back to another episode of Off the Deck.
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My name is Josh Decker.
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Off the deck is brought to you by Itica Golf.
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Make sure you use promo code OTD25 when you visit Itica Golf.
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That's ID a K A.gov.
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Uh, the current hoodie, the Capri Polo, the golf glove.
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I mean, Steve Fearing and his team are doing a fantastic job with everything they are putting together.
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Again, 25% off when you use promo code OTD25 at iDica.gov.
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Really excited uh today to have Mr.
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Gary Mays joining us.
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Um welcome to the show, first and foremost, and it's great to finally meet you and have a conversation.
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No, that's great.
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I appreciate the invite and I look forward to the discussion.
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Yeah, and and that's where I mean, I want to dive right in, and you just sent me a text right before we hopped on the show of a newspaper clipping from 2000 that says golfer has right equipment to help others gather information.
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So you've been doing this now since 1998.
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And I one of the things that stood out for me from that uh newspaper article was the the caption of the picture.
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It was so long ago that website wasn't even a single word yet.
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It was web based type.
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So how tell me about the early days and and launching your website and and kind of how you got into this.
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Yeah, that's that that's that that's a that's a good catch, right?
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Because yeah, when I read back, when I when I read through that again, I was like, what on earth?
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Not not only do I look incredibly young in that photo, right?
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But uh I'm old now, but then you know, you're you're you're looking at you know almost 30 years of of kind of like somehow I I got into this golf industry and and um you know like I said, you you you never know where it's gonna take you, right?
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And right, and so I I don't know, I thought my my background, I'm a electrical engineering major, went to Tennessee Tech, um was an avid golfer, you know, working for uh for the government as a civilian, like a research engineer, kind of in computers and uh you know technology just in that area.
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Um anyway, I I kept up with I understand back then keeping up with golf equipment like in the mid-90s was like we literally just went from persimmon woods, you know, to to metal woods, right?
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Yeah, right.
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So, so you know, that was an interesting time in the industry.
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And then, you know, even like the Pro V1, I think came out in '97, '98 time frame, maybe.
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Right.
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So, so you really, I mean, there wasn't that much to keep up with prior to that.
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I mean, you had forged irons, blades, right?
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And you had um, you had some graphite, maybe and some persimmons at some point, you know, but that was still, you know, that was still kind of high tech right then, right?
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And anyway, so it it I I kind of just kept up with those trends, and as a with my technology background, I mean, you knew that you know, materials, uh, science, manufacturing, all these things were on the cusp of improving, much less kind of like this internet thing or the the web site, right?
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Kind of stuff.
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So um anyway, I I I just kind of was keeping a journal, almost like a handwritten journal, you know, making notes on how things were going in the industry.
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And then so people, you know, friends, family would would kind of ask me, Well, what do you think about this or that?
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And you know, I'd tell them, and and then my my introvert part got tired of talking to people about it, right?
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And so I was like, Well, I'm just gonna put this journal on uh this website thing, you know, or whatever.
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And I learned uh, you know, I had a little bit of programming background, so I picking up HTML was easy to do, you know, back in the day.
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And so I just I created a a website off of some obscure like host provider and um you know started tracking that and I was like, I'm getting I'm getting visits from like I don't know like 10, 15, 20 countries, right?
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I thought, well, this is this is wild.
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Like, how are they even finding this?
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This is this is kind of pre um pre-the branding of equip to golf, right?
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Yeah, and so it literally was like Gary May's golf equipment journal, right?
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I mean that that was you know, and it wasn't even branded as such.
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I mean, other than it was some very obscure website, right?
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Just the title on the page once you clicked on it.
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Yeah, right, right.
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Yeah, so it so it obviously that highlighted the power of the internet and the ability to find out things, which is which is you know pretty mind-blowing today to think of where we are with you know AI and how how things have just gone ex exponential literally in the last couple of years, right?
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I mean, just in it and finding information, you know, on on whatever you want to find out about.
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So anyway, so that that's kind of what started it.
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And then it was kind of like like anybody else in their 30s, right?
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You you're into your career and you're you're kind of going, like, well, is this what I want to do all the time, right?
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And so you you you know, if you have a hobby, you're thinking, well, what would be my ideal day or whatever, or what would be my right ideal job?
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And I was like, well, if it could be around golf, that'd be really cool, you know.
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And so so that started the the late night, you know, uh, you know, you know, I I created a company, you know, uh got the domain name and just started kind of kind of just started blogging about golf equipment primarily in those early days.
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Um and that that was that was literally before the the blog term was even coined, right?
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Which is which I didn't know that.
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I mean I I you know I didn't it just seemed like a pretty cool outlet for you know to share, you know, stuff, right?
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So and at and at that time there was also you know a lot of discussion boards, you know, were kind of the the thing, and right, you know, so I'd get out of there, participate in some of that, and uh went went to the uh PGA show, PGA merchandise show at at the time is what it was called.
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It's not just a PGA show, but in Orlando in in 2000.
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That that was kind of the first year, and I didn't have media credentials, okay.
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Okay, but but I for$50 I got like a buyer's like credential or something.
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Like I had no, you know, I so somehow that worked out, right?
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I mean I I didn't I didn't I didn't have any intention of buying anything.
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I was just trying to get into the you know get into the space and um yeah, took my little digital camera.
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You know, at the time it was a uh little Sony camera that that saved like images and very low resolution on on three and a half inch floppy disks.
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Okay, I mean it was yeah, so anyway, it it was like obviously this was all pre-social media, pre iPhone kind of thing, right?
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So um, you know, you you would so I'm I'm out on the show show floor going, oh this is cool.
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It's like you know, kid in a candy shop kind of thing, uh at the PGA show.
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It still is that way every time I go.
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I've been doing it, yeah, I've been going for 26, 27 years.
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And um, you know, you you had to have you had to ask permission to take pictures back then.
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Wow.
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Because it was an industry-only show and that was the one time a year that they were debuting their latest and greatest, right?
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And so so anyway, that was that was you know, when you put that in perspective to where we are now, right?
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It it's it's crazy to think that that's how it how it used to be, right?
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But anyway, so I've you know, had my my uh had my camera confiscated a couple times, and I have to go to secure go to the security office and get it back.
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It's like, no, you know, this is what I'm doing, right?
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I'm covering the show, like, you know, right on this website, right?
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Or whatever.
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They're like, what?
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What what's happening?
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So, I mean, you know, they there there were others, there obviously there was other websites then, okay, but it was, you know, it was golf, golf digest, all the all the mainstream media, you know, was doing that.
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And so, um, but there wasn't too many of us kind of like independence trying to try to carve a niche there.
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And and and of course today, I mean, you've got I mean, I I mean, like, my golf spy is probably the probably the you know the the best example of one covering everything, you know, purely social media online, everything, you know, today.
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Um but we were we were we were doing that back in uh I was doing that.
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The we, it's the collective we that you always use when you're when you're when you form a company, right?
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The the we is like you, right?
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Right, right.
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Yeah, you is one person.
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Yeah, you you at midnight to two in the morning kind of thing, you know, trying to crank out the latest content or whatever.
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But so in those early days, were you going and buying, and and I want to get to your two patents, but were you going and buying whatever the newest, latest, and greatest was?
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And I mean, this is well before track man.
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So uh tell me about how the the difference, obviously it's evolved tremendously, but the early days of testing equipment, what you would do, because now it's it's bonkers.
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I mean, I I can go get spinner, I mean, I can get everything I want, but what did it look like back then?
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So, so pre pre-launch monitors, right?
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I mean, you're you literally were doing what what anybody would do.
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I mean, I had a couple buddies that were you know good golfers, yeah, better than I, even.
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I mean, I mean, like better, you know, scratch golfer kind of guys.
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And um, you know, I I would we we would literally just go to go to our local pro shop when new stuff came out and and test all the demos.
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Did whatever they had for demos, we would, you know, we would just make notes on on what we thought and take pictures, you know, and just kind of like, I mean, you know, the face, the, the at address, the, you know, just all the stuff, right?
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The gear heads would would just be geeked out about, right?
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And you know, we we just we just provide our thoughts and try to put that in a in a relatively um, you know, I try to edit that so that we weren't bashing anything.
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But at the same time, we were highlighting advantages and you know, who who maybe that you know would would be who who that particular piece of equipment might appeal to, right?
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Whether it's a high handicap, you know, low handicap, whatever.
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Um just along those lines.
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And um yeah, so so probably around 2002 I I got a uh trying to think, I I think it was there's a company, one one of the first launch monitor companies, I think was it's called Accu Sport.
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Uh if if I remember, right?
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But but I went ahead and invested in this, you know, this this launch monitor, which was like, I don't know, at the time it was probably four to five thousand dollars, which you know, I didn't really uh those are real dollars.
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Yeah, well, yeah, you're and and and so um, you know, I had in in in this kind of in this this studio office space that I'm in, I actually had a uh a net set up in the far end, and I could do uh six iron and wedge testing uh in there, and it was a little bit too tight to do anything more like a driver, right?
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I mean, because you just kind of you know, you you start short arming everything, and um, and then that didn't really didn't really work out well because uh uh it it it was too small a space and uh I probably was a little naive in what you really needed to do that.
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And so after after a few uh incidents of gotballs flying where they shouldn't, you know, including, you know, down the stairs here, the other side of this wall, you know, it's I uh I decided we just need to go to the local range and rent some space and to do some of that testing.
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Uh but um anyway, it was we we built this house and the intent was to be able to have be able to do all that inside this room.
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It just the the our lot ended up being about 20 feet too short width wise to make it work.
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So anyway.
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Um yeah, so so so that that was early days of collecting, you know, like um for for a piece of equipment.
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So it went from purely the putting equipment in the hands of golfers, you know, and getting their feedback to actually collecting data relative to uh you know spin rate, launch angle, uh club head speed, ball speed, I mean uh just the whole gamut that we see today, right?
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And so that that that was uh what which which really created a the next level of a review that you could still have the subjective comments, I like the look, I don't like the look, I like this, I like that, the feel, but but then you could you could back that up with with some data, right?
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And so I I I think I I think that for me from with my engineering background, I mean that was that was phenomenal.
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I mean, I I couldn't I couldn't get enough of that, right?
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Because it it's which that was one of the questions I wanted to ask you is how much of your engineering background impacted your ability to look at the data and and form an opinion based on the numbers now that we're getting with the new the newer technology.
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Yeah.
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How how impactful has that been?
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Well, I mean I mean I think I think just just recognizing how to maybe uh design an experiment, if you will, or a test.
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Yeah.
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Yeah right.
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And so that so that uh so that when you get the data back, you know, it it is you you have the context around the data.
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That that that that's the whole that's really the whole issue with with anything, with marketing that we see today.
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Um and that that's actually how I got into the golf ball testing space, because the uh, you know, oh over time, instead of us going to demo day or whatever and testing everything, companies started sending me stuff, right?
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Which is a whole whole different, it's a it's a weird thing, right?
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I mean, yeah, I mean it's good, but it's it's also weird because you you you know you have to set up a policy to say, hey, you know, I'm testing this, they gave it to me for free, but here's the deal.
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You know, I'm I'm either putting in my bag, you know, I'm I'm selling it, I'm giving it away, or or whatever, right?
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And you right, you almost have to have a policy around that.
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Um because because it is weird when when boxes just start showing up.
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I mean, it's great.
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I mean, uh, but but it's also you you feel obligated to do a uh good review, and and and it doesn't always work.
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I mean, had a company send me some uh irons one time and I couldn't hit them.
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And I I mean and it turned out that the the the bounce angle or or there's something with it where I I couldn't like you literally you just dug in dug into the ground every time you swing.
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And I had I thought I thought it was me, right?
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I mean, I mean, so I had other golfers do it, and so yeah, I never published anything on that, right?
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But I but I I gave them kind of a you know a test report back to to say, hey, here's what we found, right?
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I'm not publishing this, but yeah, y'all need to go back to the drawing table and fix whatever this is, right?
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So, you know, and and I you know they may they may have no idea what they did with that, right?
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I mean, you know, but you know, they're they're they're no longer in business.
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I know that.
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So they didn't do anything with it then.
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Yeah, so anyway, but but it but but it it is a weird thing when when you're trying to provide your your unbiased opinion on things and you got people sending you stuff all the time, right?
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So um anyway, it it's a you know back in those early days it was kind of wild because everybody's still trying to figure out how to take advantage of the internet, right?
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Even pre-social media and how how do you how do you navigate all that?
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And then obviously when social media hit, it just all went exponential, right?
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And and you know, you didn't have to have any credentials to review or to you just had to be good at social media, right?
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And and that that that that's kind of the we the collective we, which is me, right, probably didn't pivot real well when social media hit.
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And it's not that I didn't see the power of it, right?
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It's just that it's a it's a different way of presenting content.
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You know, oh yeah, definitely, you know, and with my background, every you know, I always thought it was very important to have the credentials, right, and uh, you know, and the scientific approach to it, all those things that would back up what you're actually saying, right?
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And you know, and and there's you know, there's sites and content, I mean there's sites and social media accounts that have that today, right?
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But there's a whole bunch that don't have anything, right?
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You know, and it's just they're they're just very good at at at spinning information.
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So yeah, right, right.
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They can make it look something really pretty.
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Yeah.
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Um yeah, lipstick on a pig kind of deal.
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Yep, yep.
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Um, what in in your mind though, what are the most important metrics that Gary Mays for equipped to golf that whether it be the golf ball or golf club, what were the most important metrics for you when you were evaluating or are evaluating?
00:20:04.769 --> 00:20:12.609
Well, I I I mean I I mean I think you I think you just need to try a lot of different stuff, right?
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Okay and figure out what is best suited you know for your game.
00:20:18.449 --> 00:20:32.049
And uh uh just to give you a kind of an example, when when we started testing golf balls, um you know, it it I mean it's important what it does off a driver, what it does off a wedge, an iron, all those things.
00:20:32.369 --> 00:20:36.689
Equally as important what it what happens off the putter face, right?
00:20:36.849 --> 00:21:02.849
Well, right, you know, so if you if you are a golfer that preferred a softer feeling ball, right, and and you put it with a insert putter, you know, like a like a softer callaway insert or or whatever, well you know that that same ball is gonna feel different if you don't if you putt with just a like a milled face, right?
00:21:02.929 --> 00:21:04.769
Like a non-insert putter, right?
00:21:05.089 --> 00:21:10.369
Okay, and so it's gonna sound different, okay, it's gonna feel different in your hands.
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Um you you can you can literally apply that to every single phase of uh of your bag, right?
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And you you you may be uh, you know, you and I may have the same like club speed, okay, but but my tempo may be um a lot better than mine.
00:21:32.529 --> 00:21:45.809
Well no, no, no, but but but it but it may be more consistent back and through as to where you have some people that like uh just as an example, John John Rom takes it back, he doesn't even get anywhere near parallel, right?
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Okay, right.
00:21:47.009 --> 00:22:03.729
But his move right there at that three quarters, you know, he's generating kind of the same, you know, clubhead speed as I don't know, maybe somebody like uh trying to think of a like Adam Scott has got like this incredibly smooth swing, right?
00:22:04.049 --> 00:22:16.769
Yeah, right, but but they're they're generating the same club speed or or similar, uh maybe not the same, but I mean which is wild to think I've never like busted their swings, but yeah, that's crazy to think about.
00:22:16.929 --> 00:22:19.729
Yeah, but but it's there's two different ways of getting there, right?
00:22:19.889 --> 00:22:28.769
Yeah, and and and and I think you know what we found out in golf ball testing is that um you know that matters, right?
00:22:29.169 --> 00:22:42.689
Because I, you know, end of the day, you know, one of them's gonna be launching it maybe a little higher or a little lower or compressing the ball just a little different, even though their club, you know, the angle of attack is different, right?
00:22:42.769 --> 00:22:47.009
And and all those things uh impact the the spin on the ball.
00:22:47.729 --> 00:22:49.969
And depending on depending on your ball flight, right?
00:22:50.049 --> 00:22:54.609
I mean, it's if you're it's gonna make your fade, fade more, it's gonna make you draw, draw more, right?
00:22:54.689 --> 00:22:55.249
Kind of thing.
00:22:55.409 --> 00:23:06.849
So um anyway, that that that that that's kind of what and then when the pro v1 came out, uh, you know, that you know clearly was a game changer in the golf ball space.
00:23:07.089 --> 00:23:13.649
Um, and so everybody's ads just compared everything to the Pro V1, right?
00:23:13.809 --> 00:23:23.089
I can remember being in a pro shop and like I I think it was Wilson as they were getting back into golf balls, you know, they they had three models.
00:23:23.169 --> 00:23:31.329
They had the distance model, the uh control model, and then the the feel model or something, right?
00:23:31.409 --> 00:23:42.609
I mean, the three spectrums of that you could have, and and the little little advertising thing on the box, they all compare, they all said it was five yards longer than the Pro V1.
00:23:43.089 --> 00:23:47.969
And so I'm I'm kind of like, you know, I'm looking at this because I could all three.
00:23:48.209 --> 00:23:54.289
Well, I I mean, there one's a two-piece construction, one's a three-piece construction, one's a four-piece construction.
00:23:54.449 --> 00:24:01.969
And just just I'm looking at that and going like okay, you know, how how is that?
00:24:02.129 --> 00:24:09.969
Well, you know, and they they they they claim to have you know um robot data to back it up, right?
00:24:10.129 --> 00:24:13.489
Which which come to find out, I mean, it was probably accurate.
00:24:13.729 --> 00:24:29.409
Okay, it's just that you know, the the the one model, if you you, if you if it was like low swing speed, high launch, okay, it was in fact, you know, five yards longer than the Pro V1.
00:24:29.649 --> 00:24:34.529
While the other model was high speed, you know, high launch, right?
00:24:34.689 --> 00:24:40.129
And it was in fact, you know, and that particular test, right, was yeah, five yards longer, right?
00:24:40.289 --> 00:24:43.569
So so that that so they made the variables work for themselves.
00:24:45.089 --> 00:24:45.329
100%.
00:24:45.569 --> 00:24:45.969
Yeah, okay.
00:24:46.369 --> 00:24:49.169
All right, so so they're they're they're not lying, right?
00:24:49.409 --> 00:24:53.569
I mean, but but again, it goes back to the little bit of the context there is missing, right?
00:24:53.649 --> 00:25:00.289
For the well, you know, which is you know, not not, I mean, you do marketing for a reason, right?
00:25:00.369 --> 00:25:01.569
To sell your product, right?
00:25:01.649 --> 00:25:06.289
So, you know, that's some of the fine print that you may or may not have read, right?
00:25:06.369 --> 00:25:11.649
I mean, and they're they're they're they're not gonna share exactly everything they did, right?
00:25:11.729 --> 00:25:16.369
But yeah, push come to shove, they probably had the the data to to back it up, right?
00:25:16.769 --> 00:25:41.169
You know, so that that that's kind of what led to um I I started with this early launch monitor, started testing golf balls, I uh grabbed a couple of scratch golfers, and we would go collect data, you know, and and I just started publishing that data um on equipped to golf.
00:25:41.249 --> 00:25:54.609
And it was it was very but it was very uh I was very specific in saying, hey, for this swing speed, this launch condition, this, you know, all these parameters, right?
00:25:54.689 --> 00:26:03.249
I I was I was very uh open about what you know the conditions of the test, right?
00:26:03.569 --> 00:26:03.889
Okay.
00:26:04.049 --> 00:26:06.529
And so that that that that that kind of got some traction.
00:26:06.609 --> 00:26:16.449
And then I thought, well, okay, that this is you know, I came up with a rating system which which led the uh the method of rating golf balls, that patent.
00:26:16.929 --> 00:26:23.969
Um uh and it was just basically the pro the how do you go about testing it rating, right?
00:26:24.049 --> 00:26:37.169
And so it was everything from uh spin, distance, uh durability, uh compression, cover hardness, uh just kind of that whole gamut, right?
00:26:37.329 --> 00:27:04.689
Just kind of laid that out in that patent, and and uh, you know, it took took me it took me probably five years to get it get it through uh the patent process, um which was very uh uh was not inexpensive, you know, but but it was also one of those, it almost became a little bit of a labor of love kind of thing.
00:27:05.009 --> 00:27:05.169
Right?
00:27:05.729 --> 00:27:09.009
And and I felt I felt I was right in what I was doing, right?
00:27:09.169 --> 00:27:13.649
Yeah, and I I didn't think the examiner was right uh in the response.
00:27:13.729 --> 00:27:27.649
They they they really didn't know how to handle it because um you know some of the pushbacks they were showing me like titles ads from the 70s saying, you know, if you hit the ball a long way, buy this ball or whatever, right?
00:27:27.809 --> 00:27:31.649
And you know, I was like, okay, that's that's not one, that's marketing.
00:27:31.729 --> 00:27:33.649
It goes back to the marketing hype, right?
00:27:33.729 --> 00:27:34.689
And right, right.
00:27:34.769 --> 00:27:36.929
Um anyway, it was it was an interesting process.
00:27:37.009 --> 00:27:40.929
I mean, I learned a whole lot about the patent uh system.
00:27:41.809 --> 00:27:50.609
And uh, you know, and and at some point it just became I was gonna get it, get it done or or be done kind of thing.
00:27:50.689 --> 00:27:57.809
And so if we finally got it done, and it was almost like that was the uh, you know, I don't want to say that was the pinnacle, right?
00:27:57.969 --> 00:28:01.489
But but anything after that, I almost didn't care, right?
00:28:01.649 --> 00:28:10.529
Because I I kind of realized this probably wasn't gonna be my full-time job as much as I uh as much as I was thinking at some point it could be, right?
00:28:11.169 --> 00:28:20.529
Um anyway, so that that that kind of started the the the golf ball testing phase of equipped to golf.
00:28:20.609 --> 00:28:27.489
And then I was at the PGA show and I was looking for um looking for somebody that owned a robot.
00:28:27.969 --> 00:28:35.249
Because I I was I was at this point where I was ready to spend money to have somebody test with my protocol.
00:28:35.809 --> 00:28:36.289
Really test.
00:28:36.449 --> 00:28:37.089
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:28:37.649 --> 00:28:52.849
They would take the protocol uh protocol outlined with my patent, and I would ship them, you know, whatever, 40 dozen golf balls, right, uh, of everything, the the newest stuff, and then come back with the data.
00:28:52.929 --> 00:28:59.409
And I ran into uh uh a guy named Mitch Vojis.
00:28:59.569 --> 00:29:03.649
Okay, so so he owned a company called Max Out Golf.
00:29:03.969 --> 00:29:13.009
And uh Mitch was the um was known in the in the golf industry because he was the 19, I believe it was 1991 U.S.
00:29:13.089 --> 00:29:14.049
amateur winner.
00:29:14.929 --> 00:29:25.249
Um and what what what made that uh interesting, he was he was 39, I think, at the time, okay?
00:29:25.729 --> 00:29:29.729
Which is which is which is weird to think about today, right?
00:29:29.969 --> 00:29:30.129
Yeah.
00:29:30.369 --> 00:29:45.489
But but Mitch Mitch Mitch played he played he played that like with with uh uh like cast cavity back irons, okay, and metal woods.
00:29:47.089 --> 00:30:03.169
And or maybe maybe it was it was persimmon, but with graphite, but he he he and and like a like a pinnacle, like like a golf ball, you would never think that you know a uh uh somebody could win with a top-ranked amateur would could ever win with.
00:30:03.329 --> 00:30:09.969
Well, Mitch had figured out that he'd figured out a lot of stuff that I was figuring out, right?
00:30:10.129 --> 00:30:11.889
He had already figured it out, right?
00:30:12.129 --> 00:30:12.449
Yeah.
00:30:12.609 --> 00:30:21.569
He was an accomplished amateur, and he won, and and he's like, Well, hey, I I've got a you know, I've got a I've got a uh robot.
00:30:21.969 --> 00:30:23.569
He's like, why don't we why don't we talk?
00:30:23.649 --> 00:30:23.969
You're right.
00:30:24.129 --> 00:30:39.409
So I f I flew out to Sherman Oaks, California, and we we kind of went through some things and we we created a joint venture to go pursue you know golf ball testing and created an app at the time called uh golf ball selector.
00:30:39.729 --> 00:30:46.449
And and again, that this was still pre-beat uh social media, so all this was website you know driven.
00:30:46.529 --> 00:31:10.609
And we tested a ton of golf balls, we created a data model and ultimately um created this app that you as a golf was a subscription-based service, you would go in and pay your fee either monthly or or annual, and um you would create your profile based on your preferences.
00:31:10.849 --> 00:31:14.369
If you had your launch monitor data, you could submit it, right?
00:31:15.569 --> 00:31:27.009
And then then we we had you know, we we'd built the algorithms to take that information and match it up with with all the data we collected from a golf ball and say, hey, here's your here's your top five kind of golf balls.
00:31:27.089 --> 00:31:28.849
We'd rank order every ball.
00:31:29.089 --> 00:31:41.249
Um, and then we would at the at the time what you could you could do like uh take your top six, we we would send you two golf balls of that model, right?
00:31:41.489 --> 00:31:51.649
And you know, so so you could literally go test it on the course, because we I mean, we knew that you had to get on the golf course to really to verify these things, right?
00:31:52.289 --> 00:32:04.529
I mean, end of the day, I mean you you can sit there behind a computer and you know all this theoretical stuff, but the end of the day, you had to you had to figure it out like from and primarily it starts at the green, right?
00:32:04.609 --> 00:32:13.889
I mean, you're chipping and putting kind of thing, and then work your way back up to the T, but obviously you get to the T and you got a ball you can't you can't keep in the fairway.
00:32:14.369 --> 00:32:18.209
I mean, it could be the ball, but it's probably your swing, right?
00:32:18.289 --> 00:32:27.729
I mean, you know, but that was one of the questions yeah I had for you is is what's the most important thing in your mind that someone should consider when they're shopping for a golf ball?
00:32:28.049 --> 00:32:28.929
Oh gosh.
00:32:29.089 --> 00:32:38.849
Um so so I I I I would say um it it it it kind of does depend on your ability, right?
00:32:39.089 --> 00:32:39.329
Okay.
00:32:39.489 --> 00:32:40.689
I mean fair answer.
00:32:40.849 --> 00:32:57.329
I mean, I mean, I you know, if you don't um you know, yeah, I I I say that, okay, but we also we also found we had some uh senior golfers, which which I'm in that category now, which is kind of funny.
00:32:57.409 --> 00:33:00.769
Uh you know, you wake up one day and you're like, oh I'm I'm I'm in that category.
00:33:00.929 --> 00:33:01.649
You get to move up a T.
00:33:01.889 --> 00:33:02.849
I'm in that category, right?
00:33:03.009 --> 00:33:06.049
Yeah, move up a T, which is glorious, by the way.
00:33:06.289 --> 00:33:19.649
Um But the the what what we found though is like like some golfers needed a higher spinning ball in order to help them get the ball in the air more.
00:33:20.289 --> 00:33:20.929
Interesting.
00:33:21.249 --> 00:33:39.889
Yeah, so so you know they're they're you know, they're they're budget conscious, you know, buying buying the you know the$20, you know, two-piece ball that you know doesn't spin much, right, thinking that they're gonna get extra distance.
00:33:40.049 --> 00:33:43.649
Well, come to find out because of their slower swing speed, right?
00:33:43.889 --> 00:33:51.089
I mean, it's they they needed more spin from an aerodynamics perspective to for the ball to be in the air longer.
00:33:51.249 --> 00:33:51.649
Right.
00:33:51.809 --> 00:34:10.449
So that there's a lot of things that I mean, we we we got feedback based on fittings and you know, ended up having to defend a lot of a lot of our testing protocol, all this stuff, because it's like you know, I remember getting an email, somebody saying, Well, you know, titleist says that this is the best ball for me.
00:34:10.690 --> 00:34:14.849
You know, you didn't say that that was the best ball for me, so you can't be right.
00:34:15.090 --> 00:34:21.170
I was like, okay, well I mean what what what do you I mean Yeah, how do you how do you combat that?
00:34:21.409 --> 00:34:24.849
No, yeah, it's like well, you know, they are trying to sell you their golf ball, right?
00:34:24.929 --> 00:34:30.529
I mean, I I I'm I'm a title, I I I have my whole bag's titleist, I play a titleist golf ball.
00:34:30.610 --> 00:34:40.769
I mean, all right, so so but you know, just the common sense part, you know, it's it's kind of like it's like, yeah, well, what what what did what did you expect them to tell you, right?
00:34:41.009 --> 00:34:44.929
So anyway, um yeah.
00:34:46.289 --> 00:34:47.809
No, that's that makes complete sense.
00:34:47.889 --> 00:34:59.009
And and that's that's uh because I I was gonna ask you also, with your wealth of knowledge and just the the catalog that's in your brain and all the data that you compiled over, like I said, nearly three decades.
00:34:59.649 --> 00:35:09.889
Have you uh ventured into doing any any fittings and suggesting clubs to people, or do you let someone take the data that you've compiled and discern from themselves?
00:35:10.609 --> 00:35:24.049
No, it's it's we we we the uh the company that I was working with to do the golf ball testing, they they they covered the entire like uh fitting space.
00:35:24.210 --> 00:35:28.609
Okay and I I I never really ventured into that.
00:35:28.690 --> 00:35:31.569
I mean I can I can I can help somebody, right?
00:35:31.730 --> 00:35:56.929
I mean, but that that that's never it's never it's never really been uh I and I don't know if it's just because when I started this, this was just like I I just was kind of going through and thinking things that were essential for me, you know, that that I needed to like that I liked or or that I felt every golfer should do or or have or consider or whatever.
00:35:57.170 --> 00:36:00.049
And so that that that's really where it started.
00:36:00.129 --> 00:36:07.009
I I didn't really anticipate getting to the you know, I was in the golf ball testing space for like 15 years probably.
00:36:07.089 --> 00:36:10.609
And yeah, and it just we we didn't we didn't pivot well.
00:36:10.769 --> 00:36:32.849
I think I mentioned this with social media and and then it then it also at the at the at the same time it just got it got to be uh it was just really hard to keep up because companies were releasing stuff felt like every six to six months to a year, that's where the cycle used to be almost like every two years.
00:36:33.089 --> 00:36:45.409
And so, you know, we we would we would put out an update, you know, with the latest golf balls, and then like a month later you'd have 15 new golf balls come out, and everybody's complaining that you haven't got them out there yet, right?
00:36:45.489 --> 00:36:47.969
And it just took time to test.
00:36:48.210 --> 00:37:06.210
I mean, the the the cycle product cycles have really uh uh in golf balls, but but it especially in equipment drivers, I mean, the whole Tailor made, if you if you go back and look at TailorMade, it seemed like every six months they were releasing a new driver for a period of 10 years, right?
00:37:06.609 --> 00:37:18.369
I mean, yeah, and and you know, you're you're kind of like, well, is it is it really that much better than the one I just spent$400 for six months ago?
00:37:18.609 --> 00:37:18.849
Right.
00:37:19.009 --> 00:37:19.250
Right.
00:37:19.329 --> 00:37:28.449
I mean, well, and has has the technology plateaued, like have we have we finally hit a breaking point where there's nothing else that can happen?
00:37:29.730 --> 00:37:34.609
I I mean personally, I I I kind of think I kind of think it has.
00:37:34.769 --> 00:37:46.129
Now, I I still think this is really why we got into the golf ball space, because um I I feel like there's still this optimization piece, right?
00:37:46.690 --> 00:37:50.690
Whether it's the the specific head design, the shaft.
00:37:50.769 --> 00:37:56.210
I mean the shaft is probably you know the most important part.
00:37:56.449 --> 00:37:56.769
Probably.
00:37:56.849 --> 00:37:59.730
I mean, it's the engine, if you will, of all this stuff.
00:37:59.889 --> 00:38:06.049
And um, you know, and there the the I I think there's still some room for some advances there.
00:38:06.289 --> 00:38:29.649
Um you know, but but we're we're we're in a weird place in the industry because it's also like we're talking about golf ball rollback, we're talking about like uh, you know, still talking about like club face, you know, should we go back to a little bit smaller head, you know, the the COR uh the rebound effect off a face.
00:38:29.809 --> 00:38:30.529
I mean, yeah.
00:38:30.690 --> 00:38:34.449
And so I I I I'm not really sure where it's gonna end up.
00:38:34.609 --> 00:38:46.609
Uh I mean I I but but but I know that it would be really cool to see um some limitations on our uh uh on our professional uh at the attack.
00:38:46.769 --> 00:38:48.289
So you are for bike recation.
00:38:48.929 --> 00:38:50.369
Uh I'm really not.
00:38:50.609 --> 00:38:52.769
Okay, but but but I am, I'm for it.
00:38:52.849 --> 00:38:54.210
Well, it's they play a different game.
00:38:54.449 --> 00:38:55.889
Yeah, it it is, it is.
00:38:56.049 --> 00:39:05.009
Uh the the there's still something just like maybe romantic about knowing that we're playing the same whatever golf ball cap.
00:39:05.250 --> 00:39:10.929
But in reality, you know, when I when I peel that back, we're not.
00:39:11.170 --> 00:39:15.489
We're not playing the same stuff because they have their own yeah, they they can get whatever they want, right?
00:39:15.569 --> 00:39:40.929
So yeah, how many different versions of Pro V1s are there?
00:39:41.010 --> 00:39:43.170
And there's what four available to the market?
00:39:43.409 --> 00:39:44.369
Yep, yeah, yep.
00:39:44.530 --> 00:39:52.130
Yeah, because I because I get frustrated sometimes seeing some of the tour uh equipment and going like, I want that putter, right?
00:39:52.210 --> 00:39:53.329
I mean, or whatever, right?
00:39:53.409 --> 00:39:54.929
I like that blade or whatever.
00:39:55.010 --> 00:39:58.690
I mean, like, like don't tell me about it unless I get it, right?
00:39:58.849 --> 00:40:12.530
I mean, so anyway, that that's uh yeah, I I my the traditional part of me doesn't want bifurcation, but I mean I ultimately it's it's probably probably where we're headed and and probably for a good thing.
00:40:12.690 --> 00:40:23.970
It's one of the few sports though that's left to where at least in in the optics is is that we're still playing the same course, we're playing the same whatever, right?
00:40:25.250 --> 00:40:26.929
Even though we're really not, I guess.
00:40:27.010 --> 00:40:34.929
You know, it's probably uh over all your years uh in this industry, what technology do you think was the most overhyped?
00:40:35.730 --> 00:40:43.650
Oh wow, that's a that's a good um uh oh that's that's a great question, Josh.
00:40:44.130 --> 00:40:45.970
Kind of caught me caught me off guard there.
00:40:46.050 --> 00:40:46.929
Uh no, it's fun.
00:40:47.010 --> 00:40:48.929
And and I don't mind if you need to take a minute to think about it.
00:40:49.010 --> 00:40:57.409
I was just now I I well man, that's uh I mean it it I don't know.
00:40:57.490 --> 00:41:12.210
You you that that that's a little bit hard for me to answer as a with my technology background because I'm I'm the hype man when it comes to like oh this is this is cool, right?
00:41:12.289 --> 00:41:30.130
I mean, I I can remember when they were they were uh talking about like uh uh like I'm trying to think like spining the the shaft or whatever, finding the finding the spine of the shaft of a graphite shaft because of how they were manufactured, right?
00:41:30.289 --> 00:41:42.929
And you could you could literally find the most consistent uh kick point, if you will, in a shaft, and that's how it needed to be like um installed, right?
00:41:43.010 --> 00:41:47.889
Or right right and okay, and and so I was kind of like uh come on, right?
00:41:47.970 --> 00:41:51.170
I mean, part of me was like this can't be a thing, right?
00:41:51.250 --> 00:41:54.769
And then and then it's like they did the testing, right?
00:41:54.849 --> 00:42:10.210
And and it showed that if it's not aligned, uh that that the the the the other example is like uh uh I don't know if you ever heard about the golf ball, spinning the golf ball and finding the yeah, like in like doing does.
00:42:10.369 --> 00:42:11.250
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:42:11.409 --> 00:42:15.329
Right, and and you're sitting there going like uh come on, man.
00:42:15.490 --> 00:42:15.730
Right.
00:42:15.809 --> 00:42:18.769
And then then we we got to testing golf balls, right?
00:42:18.849 --> 00:42:24.210
And we're cutting them in half, and we found some that had cores that were not centered, right?
00:42:24.369 --> 00:42:26.130
And so I was like, oh, okay.
00:42:26.289 --> 00:42:36.449
Well, yeah, certainly a core not centered to golf ball is gonna not gonna it's gonna go, you know, right, it's not gonna fly one over the other, it's not gonna fly true, right?
00:42:36.610 --> 00:42:47.490
So so so just this whole concept of of the optimization of things, right, makes it hard to say what what what it was.
00:42:47.570 --> 00:43:02.530
Because I mean, I you know, I I mean I I could say something about the graphite shaft, maybe, but but at the same time, I mean, you know, and maybe it's looking at my bag now, I've got more graphite now than I ever had, right?
00:43:02.849 --> 00:43:09.329
And so, and then you know, they that and over over time they've improved the manufacturing of all these things, right?
00:43:09.490 --> 00:43:14.530
And so, so uh I don't know.
00:43:14.610 --> 00:43:16.130
But that's a that's a good question.
00:43:16.210 --> 00:43:18.929
I'll have to I'll have to noodle on that.
00:43:19.490 --> 00:43:34.449
Well, and the first thing that came to mind my mind my mind when I wrote that down, and for no reason other than I thought it was horrendous and the sound it made was even worse, was the Nike Sasquatch driver.
00:43:34.769 --> 00:43:46.610
Yes, yeah, so so if if you go back uh even before that, Callaway came out with something called the uh I may get this wrong, but it doesn't matter.
00:43:46.690 --> 00:43:48.050
I'm old, so I can get things wrong.
00:43:48.130 --> 00:43:55.809
But but but it's like the it's like the ERC, which was what's Eli Callaway's um yeah, you know initials, right?
00:43:55.889 --> 00:43:58.130
I mean the the the founder of Callaway.
00:43:58.610 --> 00:44:18.130
And I I can remember I remember being at the at our local driving range under like a roof, you know, hitting out you know onto the open space, hitting that thing for the first time, and the sound that it made made everybody stop and look at me.
00:44:18.530 --> 00:44:18.849
Right?
00:44:19.010 --> 00:44:21.650
And and it as you're grinning and not for good reasons?
00:44:21.809 --> 00:44:24.530
Yeah, no, it was it was crazy loud.
00:44:24.690 --> 00:44:27.809
I mean, it I I don't know, it was just it felt awful, right?
00:44:27.889 --> 00:44:41.010
But I mean it was and it it was a uh I feel like that's when they were doing like the some of the early days of composite faces, of mixing composite and and metal and titanium faces.
00:44:41.170 --> 00:44:52.610
Uh but that that thing was I I mean I I took one swing and I could I couldn't, I was like, ugh, I I can't, I don't, you know, and here I'm here I'm trying to test it report on this, right?
00:44:52.769 --> 00:44:58.210
I'm sitting there having to take as many swings as possible, and I've got everybody just going like, dude, just stop.
00:44:58.369 --> 00:44:59.730
You know, this is it's awful.
00:45:00.210 --> 00:45:02.769
Everyone on the range wants to know who's shooting the 12 gauge.
00:45:02.929 --> 00:45:03.570
Yeah, exactly.
00:45:03.650 --> 00:45:07.889
But but the the the Sasquatch was in that same realm, though.
00:45:08.210 --> 00:45:09.170
It was so bad.
00:45:09.329 --> 00:45:09.650
Yeah, it was.
00:45:26.690 --> 00:45:29.170
I mean they they were they're trying to figure it all out, right?
00:45:29.409 --> 00:45:51.730
Um and so there's just a a lot of uh a lot of interesting, you know, that that's kind of the the glory days of the late 90s, early 2000s, as it's all that as we were moving from you know past the early days of of metal woods into the composite and titanium and how how you handled everything else.
00:45:51.889 --> 00:45:54.530
I mean anyway.
00:45:55.090 --> 00:46:00.050
Do you remember the first time you swung a metal wood and like what that was like?
00:46:01.809 --> 00:46:03.730
Um yeah.
00:46:03.970 --> 00:46:15.650
Uh yeah, I it I had had like I think at the time I was playing like some it wasn't persimmon woods, although I had some.
00:46:15.889 --> 00:46:19.250
I was playing like more like laminated laminated woods.
00:46:19.329 --> 00:46:28.849
So so Ping Ping was really Ping was one of the last companies to to uh offer wood woods.
00:46:29.170 --> 00:46:31.329
And they they they they were some of the best.
00:46:31.490 --> 00:46:49.250
I mean I I had this this ping, I think it's called ISI Tour 7 Wood that I had in the bag for what which it which is crazy because I've now just now got a title as seven wood that I've come back to, or that I've I've finally said, okay, these are easier to hit.
00:46:49.570 --> 00:46:59.409
But but I had had had that ping uh laminated you know wood in the bag for a really long time.
00:46:59.730 --> 00:47:01.570
And it's just it just felt good, right?
00:47:01.730 --> 00:47:11.650
And and I can remember hitting or going to a demo day and hitting a metal wood, and it's like it just just how it shot off the face was different.
00:47:12.449 --> 00:47:20.849
And and I had to I had to really like pay attention to the distance part because it was it was significantly more.
00:47:21.010 --> 00:47:25.970
And it and it again it goes back to you gotta still gotta hit the right shaft.
00:47:26.289 --> 00:47:26.449
Right?
00:47:26.530 --> 00:47:46.610
That that that's the other part, you know, that that you just can't ignore, um, especially when you're testing new equipment, because you just, you know, and to this day, I mean you can get on a launch minor and get the numbers, but it's also good to have, you know, it's it's getting harder and harder to uh to have you know experienced fitters, right?
00:47:46.769 --> 00:47:51.889
These older guys that can go, okay, that that's the that's the window that you're that's what you need.
00:47:52.050 --> 00:47:52.369
Right.
00:47:52.530 --> 00:47:52.849
Right.
00:47:53.170 --> 00:47:59.650
And uh unfortunately, you know, I feel like we're we're there's not many of those guys left, right?
00:48:00.130 --> 00:48:00.449
Right.
00:48:00.610 --> 00:48:15.570
I mean, mu much like our uh some of our uh you know best you know club makers, you know, you know, they're they're getting on up in years, and and so now everything's kind of computer and it's all it's all tech based, right?
00:48:15.730 --> 00:48:52.130
There's still there's still some good ones out there, but um, but yeah, it it I I I I think I like the fact that you could just hit it all over the face and not damage, right?
00:48:52.210 --> 00:48:55.730
I mean you can you could hit bad shots, I mean, you know, yeah, chunk things.
00:48:55.810 --> 00:48:59.330
I mean it was just it was it was just it's kind of a game changer in that regard.
00:48:59.490 --> 00:49:03.410
You could just wash them, clean them up, and they just look brand new again, right?
00:49:03.490 --> 00:49:07.810
Which is which and I love what you touched on about the shaft, and I experienced this firsthand.
00:49:07.970 --> 00:49:13.410
Um, my wife gave me a mini driver for my birthday, and it had a shaft in it, and I went to do the fitting.
00:49:13.490 --> 00:49:18.770
She wouldn't have made it actually have the present to open on my birthday, so it still included a fitting.
00:49:18.930 --> 00:49:27.170
And the brand new shaft that was in it, I hit the same head on an identical demo shaft and was getting better numbers.
00:49:27.330 --> 00:49:31.250
And the guy that did the fitting, he was like, Man, he's like, these are all like handmade.
00:49:31.410 --> 00:49:39.890
He's like, So that one, that demo shaft, he's like, You're going home with that one because the numbers on that, I mean, they were substantially better.
00:49:40.130 --> 00:49:43.010
Like, it wasn't like just a one-off here, one off there.
00:49:43.090 --> 00:49:49.570
Um, spin rate, I mean, everything was exactly how we wanted it on the demo shaft, not the one that was brand new.
00:49:49.650 --> 00:49:51.090
And that that blew my mind.
00:49:51.250 --> 00:49:53.170
Yeah, it's it's kind of crazy.
00:49:53.330 --> 00:50:11.730
I mean, I've had that same experience, and you know, you you what which which goes back to I'm I'm pretty convinced that that everybody could be optimized for every part of the bag if you have the time and the wherewithal and the patience and yeah, you know, to to go through that.
00:50:11.970 --> 00:50:20.690
Uh and and like like you said, I mean that that was a case where uh you know you really understand why you're hitting one better than the other, right?
00:50:21.010 --> 00:50:28.770
And what whether that particular shaft, maybe maybe that shaft went through that spinning process and it was optimized for you know for aligned correctly.
00:50:28.850 --> 00:50:29.250
I don't know.
00:50:29.410 --> 00:50:57.410
I mean, you know, and so there's there's there's a lot of it, uh there's a lot of trial and error still with it, uh, even though it's gotten down to to uh so much of a science these days that uh I mean I think if you can find find a good fitter that you can trust and um you know I I'm and I'm also a believer that like you could I could probably go to every brand and and find something that would work for me these days.
00:50:58.130 --> 00:50:58.450
Right.
00:50:58.610 --> 00:51:03.810
And and so you know, because everybody's like, well, what who should I should play titleist, Callaway, Taylor Brain?
00:51:03.890 --> 00:51:07.410
I was like, you know, you know, what what what brand do you like?
00:51:07.650 --> 00:51:12.290
And then then let's, you know, just let's just go from there, right?
00:51:12.370 --> 00:51:14.690
And then you you may find something you can hit better, right?
00:51:14.770 --> 00:51:24.930
But like like I like I know I I went to a fitting and they were putting me in some Taylor-made super game improvement, something, and I my numbers were off the charts, right?
00:51:25.010 --> 00:51:29.410
But but I was kind of like, I I don't I don't like the look of that, right?
00:51:29.570 --> 00:51:33.570
I mean, I mean I literally could not play that because I didn't like the look.
00:51:33.810 --> 00:51:35.250
That's how you felt standing over it, yeah.
00:51:35.410 --> 00:51:35.810
Yeah, yeah.
00:51:35.970 --> 00:51:46.690
And it just it just wasn't uh, you know, I didn't feel I could control the ball as well, you know, because because the numbers were just something very foreign to me, right?
00:51:47.170 --> 00:51:50.770
So anyway, but I mean all all that kind of goes into it.
00:51:51.170 --> 00:52:04.210
There's there's really not any to me, there's really not any right or wrong to any of it other than you just need to figure out what works for you and and ultimately that is more than your equipment, right?
00:52:04.290 --> 00:52:06.450
You you you gotta have a repeating swing.
00:52:06.610 --> 00:52:10.850
I don't care if you're slicing it 30 yards every time, okay.
00:52:11.090 --> 00:52:15.330
If you know that's what's gonna happen, well now you can play the game, right?
00:52:15.570 --> 00:52:17.330
And and and score, right?
00:52:17.410 --> 00:52:21.730
I mean, uh, and so that that that's that's the other the ironic part.
00:52:21.810 --> 00:52:29.490
I mean, I spent all this time looking at equipment, and at the end of the day, I you know, if my swing's not there, it doesn't really matter, right?
00:52:29.650 --> 00:52:33.730
Right, you know, so anyway, it's it's a matter of balance across the board.
00:52:33.970 --> 00:52:43.650
So um, one last question, and then I got a couple of quick hitters uh before, and then I I need to go ahead and get your commitment to come back on the show.
00:52:43.730 --> 00:52:50.130
Uh, right before we started recording, you gave us a little tour of all the different countries and the golf flags.
00:52:50.370 --> 00:53:05.250
Um so I I hope this has been an enjoyable conversation for you because I would love to have you back on and just talk about the different countries and places you've been and all those different golf experiences because it's uh I mean it's remarkable all the places that you've been.
00:53:05.330 --> 00:53:07.010
So I'd love to pick your brain there.
00:53:07.170 --> 00:53:16.770
Um, but what is if if if somebody has the time to get fitted for one piece of equipment in their golf bag, in your mind, what is the most important piece?
00:53:17.570 --> 00:53:19.090
Another great question.
00:53:19.330 --> 00:53:19.730
Jeez.
00:53:20.210 --> 00:53:36.610
Um well, I mean, I I I would tend to I would tend to lean toward the driver just because you know your whole if you can't get off the T, you're not playing the game.
00:53:36.690 --> 00:53:38.210
Uh you you're not, right?
00:53:38.370 --> 00:53:48.530
And and I mean I've I've played with a bunch of golfers that once they're off the T, yeah, and you really see this like in a in a scramble format, right?
00:53:48.690 --> 00:54:12.370
That that that once they're off the T, if they're in the middle of the fairway, their game's pretty good coming in, or what you know, but but if you can't consistently uh hit the ball where you're aiming off the T, then it it just becomes a real um real challenge because you're you're if the ball's not in play, well obviously you're you're a couple you're a stroke, stroke and a half, two strokes down right out of the gate.
00:54:12.530 --> 00:54:13.090
And it's hard.
00:54:13.250 --> 00:54:15.170
You can't right you can't make that up, right?
00:54:15.330 --> 00:54:19.010
But yeah, anyway, that that's that's what I would suggest.
00:54:19.250 --> 00:54:21.330
But it's a great answer.
00:54:21.570 --> 00:54:24.930
All right, a couple quick questions and we'll let you get out of here.
00:54:25.090 --> 00:54:28.370
Um what is your favorite country for golf?
00:54:29.730 --> 00:54:30.930
Ah wow.
00:54:31.170 --> 00:54:35.330
Um well it it that there's only one answer to this.
00:54:35.810 --> 00:54:36.130
Okay.
00:54:36.610 --> 00:54:37.890
And it's Scotland.
00:54:38.050 --> 00:54:57.970
I mean, I I I I can't I can't I I've almost got to the point because um played in played in 20 countries now, um and played more international golf than I played golf in the US, uh, which which I'm trying to rec rectify that a little bit.
00:54:58.210 --> 00:55:08.850
Uh but it's it it's I don't know, it it's hard to I almost got at the point where I'm putting Scotland off in a on its own.
00:55:09.170 --> 00:55:10.370
It's own little yeah.
00:55:10.610 --> 00:55:13.970
Yeah, because because because people ask too, what about the golf course, right?
00:55:14.050 --> 00:55:16.930
And I was like, well, it's the old course.
00:55:17.010 --> 00:55:23.730
I mean, and you can you can talk about like, well, it's you know, whatever, whatever, whatever, right?
00:55:23.810 --> 00:55:27.090
I mean, and put it not at number one.
00:55:27.650 --> 00:55:27.970
Yeah.
00:55:28.290 --> 00:55:33.650
Okay, but but you know, you you can't dismiss the history, the town of St.
00:55:33.890 --> 00:55:39.570
Andrews, um, just the the whole vibe that you get when you're playing.
00:55:39.890 --> 00:55:43.090
Um I I anyway, so so so there's that.
00:55:43.250 --> 00:55:51.970
Um you know, pr probably the I mean, I mean, I I love Ireland as well.
00:55:52.130 --> 00:55:53.410
We've played a bunch there.
00:55:53.570 --> 00:55:59.890
Uh England's probably the the the one that people don't think about as much.
00:56:00.370 --> 00:56:00.530
Okay.
00:56:02.370 --> 00:56:04.050
But it's it's incredible.
00:56:04.210 --> 00:56:07.490
I mean, I the the courses uh are just phenomenal.
00:56:07.650 --> 00:56:14.930
I mean that there's there there's so many there's so many to go through and so many to so much to to go through.
00:56:15.090 --> 00:56:24.290
And you know we've we've done like almost 10 years in a row of going to three or four or five places, right?
00:56:24.450 --> 00:56:35.570
And and it it's and I've I I've tried to rank courses, uh which has given me a whole new appreciation for the actual people that do official rankings, right?
00:56:35.650 --> 00:56:37.330
I've just tried to rank them on my own, right?
00:56:37.410 --> 00:56:51.570
And and it's it's hard because you you go to these places and if you're if you're in the moment, right, you you just you get sucked into the the whole experience, and it's it's hard to it's hard to figure out.
00:56:51.650 --> 00:56:57.570
You you're basically trying to you know rank order your experiences, right?
00:56:57.810 --> 00:56:58.130
Right.
00:56:58.450 --> 00:57:04.210
And and and and sometimes that's you know, sometimes if you play well, well that's gonna rank higher, right?
00:57:04.290 --> 00:57:12.290
If you don't play as well, or if it you get rained on, like for for the entire round or whatever, that's gonna that's gonna change things, right?
00:57:12.370 --> 00:57:37.250
But but it's a uh uh yeah, I I'll I I'll be glad we we we can have a whole we can have a whole other pod just talking about travel and the experiences and it's been I've been very blessed uh to be able to do what we what I've done, you know, and and you know, it's I can't uh I yeah, it's sometimes it's hard to process it all.
00:57:37.330 --> 00:57:38.290
That that's the other part.
00:57:38.450 --> 00:57:56.690
Like like this whole year of well, the the we we went to Scotland here about a month ago, six weeks ago, and I haven't even started to figure out where some of those courses rank within my top 100 kind of like my own personal ranking, right?
00:57:56.770 --> 00:58:00.450
Because it's like it's like how do you how do you how do you do that, right?
00:58:00.610 --> 00:58:01.410
I mean right.
00:58:01.650 --> 00:58:07.570
I mean, and and anyway, it's uh these are these are good problems to have, I guess.
00:58:07.730 --> 00:58:08.610
Uh yeah, they are.
00:58:08.770 --> 00:58:11.890
Yeah, if I'm noodling over that, then then life's pretty good.
00:58:11.970 --> 00:58:14.850
So what's your favorite club in the bag right now?
00:58:15.010 --> 00:58:16.130
Uh putter.
00:58:16.850 --> 00:58:17.490
Putter.
00:58:17.730 --> 00:58:19.490
We just make it everything we look at?
00:58:19.730 --> 00:58:29.330
Well, it uh not necessarily, okay, but um but it it's most comfortable with my putter.
00:58:29.570 --> 00:58:40.130
I mean, I'm I'm fairly comfortable with my driver too, but but it's it's gotta be the putter, because I mean the the the putter's gonna make or break everything, right?
00:58:40.530 --> 00:58:41.890
Putter can fix a lot of things.
00:58:42.450 --> 00:58:53.970
Short game in general, but putting putting, especially if you can go through a round and not three putt, well then you're you're and you're putting in the fairway and you're not three putting, okay.
00:58:54.130 --> 00:58:58.850
Well, you're you're you're you're probably you're probably you're probably hanging in there, right?
00:58:58.930 --> 00:59:00.610
You're probably shooting a decent score.
00:59:00.770 --> 00:59:19.730
So and and putting's just I I've got a I've got a backyard uh you know short game area that I put in a couple years ago, and so I I I putt a lot, and I'm like, you know, there's no there's no reason not to be a consistent putter in my mind.
00:59:19.890 --> 00:59:23.250
Even if it's just putting on your carpet at home, there's just no reason.
00:59:23.330 --> 00:59:25.090
It's the easiest thing to do.
00:59:25.330 --> 00:59:34.130
Um, you know, you can there's so many different, you know, whether it's a blade or a mallet, uh the whole lab stuff.
00:59:34.210 --> 00:59:39.570
I mean, I'm I'm not into, but you know, different grips you can try, different stances.
00:59:39.890 --> 00:59:44.690
I mean, uh you there's no excuse not to be a consistent putter.
00:59:45.170 --> 00:59:46.930
Right, yeah, there's something out there for everybody.
00:59:47.010 --> 00:59:47.250
Yeah.
00:59:47.490 --> 00:59:49.490
Gary, this has been this has been a lot of fun.
00:59:49.570 --> 00:59:57.330
I loved hearing your background and and I'll again I want to have you on just talk about travel because that's something that's incredibly intriguing to me.
00:59:57.490 --> 01:00:01.490
Um I love going and seeing new places, and especially if I get to take my sticks.
01:00:01.650 --> 01:00:04.370
Um, but thanks again for taking time to come on and tell your story.
01:00:04.450 --> 01:00:05.010
This has been great.
01:00:05.170 --> 01:00:06.290
No, it's fantastic.
01:00:06.370 --> 01:00:07.490
I've I really enjoyed it.
01:00:07.570 --> 01:00:12.450
And uh thanks for having me and would look forward to seeing you at Sweeten sometime soon.
01:00:12.770 --> 01:00:13.570
Awesome, awesome.
01:00:13.730 --> 01:00:17.170
For Gary Mays, I'm Josh Decker, and this has been another episode of Off the Deck.
00:00:29.030 --> 00:00:33.590
Driver off the deck for coin cost is driver off the deck.
00:00:33.910 --> 00:00:34.789
Victor Hoplin.
00:00:35.350 --> 00:00:36.310
The driver off the deck.
00:00:36.390 --> 00:00:37.670
I think you would try this, right?
00:00:39.109 --> 00:00:39.750
Oh my god.
00:00:45.109 --> 00:00:46.710
You have to put your foot on the gas.
00:00:46.790 --> 00:00:50.950
You pull out the driver off the deck and you put it on the drain all the way up the hill.
00:00:53.030 --> 00:00:55.429
Welcome back to another episode of Off the Deck.
00:00:55.510 --> 00:00:56.469
My name is Josh Decker.
00:00:56.790 --> 00:00:58.870
Off the deck is brought to you by Itica Golf.
00:00:59.350 --> 00:01:03.510
Make sure you use promo code OTD25 when you visit Itica Golf.
00:01:03.590 --> 00:01:05.670
That's ID a K A.gov.
00:01:06.310 --> 00:01:09.989
Uh, the current hoodie, the Capri Polo, the golf glove.
00:01:10.150 --> 00:01:14.390
I mean, Steve Fearing and his team are doing a fantastic job with everything they are putting together.
00:01:14.549 --> 00:01:20.629
Again, 25% off when you use promo code OTD25 at iDica.gov.
00:01:21.349 --> 00:01:23.670
Really excited uh today to have Mr.
00:01:23.750 --> 00:01:25.510
Gary Mays joining us.
00:01:25.670 --> 00:01:31.430
Um welcome to the show, first and foremost, and it's great to finally meet you and have a conversation.
00:01:31.670 --> 00:01:32.469
No, that's great.
00:01:32.549 --> 00:01:36.870
I appreciate the invite and I look forward to the discussion.
00:01:37.270 --> 00:01:50.469
Yeah, and and that's where I mean, I want to dive right in, and you just sent me a text right before we hopped on the show of a newspaper clipping from 2000 that says golfer has right equipment to help others gather information.
00:01:50.550 --> 00:01:53.430
So you've been doing this now since 1998.
00:01:53.590 --> 00:02:01.030
And I one of the things that stood out for me from that uh newspaper article was the the caption of the picture.
00:02:01.270 --> 00:02:05.670
It was so long ago that website wasn't even a single word yet.
00:02:05.750 --> 00:02:08.150
It was web based type.
00:02:09.349 --> 00:02:15.030
So how tell me about the early days and and launching your website and and kind of how you got into this.
00:02:15.270 --> 00:02:19.349
Yeah, that's that that's that that's a that's a good catch, right?
00:02:19.509 --> 00:02:24.949
Because yeah, when I read back, when I when I read through that again, I was like, what on earth?
00:02:25.030 --> 00:02:29.349
Not not only do I look incredibly young in that photo, right?
00:02:29.509 --> 00:02:47.590
But uh I'm old now, but then you know, you're you're you're looking at you know almost 30 years of of kind of like somehow I I got into this golf industry and and um you know like I said, you you you never know where it's gonna take you, right?
00:02:47.830 --> 00:03:09.509
And right, and so I I don't know, I thought my my background, I'm a electrical engineering major, went to Tennessee Tech, um was an avid golfer, you know, working for uh for the government as a civilian, like a research engineer, kind of in computers and uh you know technology just in that area.
00:03:09.750 --> 00:03:25.750
Um anyway, I I kept up with I understand back then keeping up with golf equipment like in the mid-90s was like we literally just went from persimmon woods, you know, to to metal woods, right?
00:03:25.990 --> 00:03:26.710
Yeah, right.
00:03:26.789 --> 00:03:31.189
So, so you know, that was an interesting time in the industry.
00:03:31.270 --> 00:03:38.069
And then, you know, even like the Pro V1, I think came out in '97, '98 time frame, maybe.
00:03:38.310 --> 00:03:38.710
Right.
00:03:38.870 --> 00:03:43.270
So, so you really, I mean, there wasn't that much to keep up with prior to that.
00:03:43.430 --> 00:03:46.390
I mean, you had forged irons, blades, right?
00:03:46.469 --> 00:03:57.430
And you had um, you had some graphite, maybe and some persimmons at some point, you know, but that was still, you know, that was still kind of high tech right then, right?
00:03:57.509 --> 00:04:19.990
And anyway, so it it I I kind of just kept up with those trends, and as a with my technology background, I mean, you knew that you know, materials, uh, science, manufacturing, all these things were on the cusp of improving, much less kind of like this internet thing or the the web site, right?
00:04:20.310 --> 00:04:21.110
Kind of stuff.
00:04:21.349 --> 00:04:34.230
So um anyway, I I I just kind of was keeping a journal, almost like a handwritten journal, you know, making notes on how things were going in the industry.
00:04:34.310 --> 00:04:40.789
And then so people, you know, friends, family would would kind of ask me, Well, what do you think about this or that?
00:04:40.949 --> 00:04:47.430
And you know, I'd tell them, and and then my my introvert part got tired of talking to people about it, right?
00:04:47.590 --> 00:04:53.430
And so I was like, Well, I'm just gonna put this journal on uh this website thing, you know, or whatever.
00:04:53.670 --> 00:05:01.110
And I learned uh, you know, I had a little bit of programming background, so I picking up HTML was easy to do, you know, back in the day.
00:05:01.189 --> 00:05:21.990
And so I just I created a a website off of some obscure like host provider and um you know started tracking that and I was like, I'm getting I'm getting visits from like I don't know like 10, 15, 20 countries, right?
00:05:22.230 --> 00:05:23.670
I thought, well, this is this is wild.
00:05:23.750 --> 00:05:25.350
Like, how are they even finding this?
00:05:25.430 --> 00:05:31.750
This is this is kind of pre um pre-the branding of equip to golf, right?
00:05:31.910 --> 00:05:37.110
Yeah, and so it literally was like Gary May's golf equipment journal, right?
00:05:37.189 --> 00:05:41.509
I mean that that was you know, and it wasn't even branded as such.
00:05:41.590 --> 00:05:45.189
I mean, other than it was some very obscure website, right?
00:05:45.590 --> 00:05:47.590
Just the title on the page once you clicked on it.
00:05:47.829 --> 00:05:48.709
Yeah, right, right.
00:05:48.870 --> 00:06:09.990
Yeah, so it so it obviously that highlighted the power of the internet and the ability to find out things, which is which is you know pretty mind-blowing today to think of where we are with you know AI and how how things have just gone ex exponential literally in the last couple of years, right?
00:06:10.149 --> 00:06:15.910
I mean, just in it and finding information, you know, on on whatever you want to find out about.
00:06:16.069 --> 00:06:19.509
So anyway, so that that's kind of what started it.
00:06:19.590 --> 00:06:23.350
And then it was kind of like like anybody else in their 30s, right?
00:06:23.430 --> 00:06:28.870
You you're into your career and you're you're kind of going, like, well, is this what I want to do all the time, right?
00:06:29.350 --> 00:06:37.269
And so you you you know, if you have a hobby, you're thinking, well, what would be my ideal day or whatever, or what would be my right ideal job?
00:06:37.350 --> 00:06:40.069
And I was like, well, if it could be around golf, that'd be really cool, you know.
00:06:40.149 --> 00:07:00.550
And so so that started the the late night, you know, uh, you know, you know, I I created a company, you know, uh got the domain name and just started kind of kind of just started blogging about golf equipment primarily in those early days.
00:07:00.790 --> 00:07:06.949
Um and that that was that was literally before the the blog term was even coined, right?
00:07:07.110 --> 00:07:08.629
Which is which I didn't know that.
00:07:08.709 --> 00:07:17.189
I mean I I you know I didn't it just seemed like a pretty cool outlet for you know to share, you know, stuff, right?
00:07:17.350 --> 00:07:34.629
So and at and at that time there was also you know a lot of discussion boards, you know, were kind of the the thing, and right, you know, so I'd get out of there, participate in some of that, and uh went went to the uh PGA show, PGA merchandise show at at the time is what it was called.
00:07:34.709 --> 00:07:38.629
It's not just a PGA show, but in Orlando in in 2000.
00:07:38.709 --> 00:07:43.910
That that was kind of the first year, and I didn't have media credentials, okay.
00:07:44.149 --> 00:07:50.230
Okay, but but I for$50 I got like a buyer's like credential or something.
00:07:50.389 --> 00:07:53.189
Like I had no, you know, I so somehow that worked out, right?
00:07:53.269 --> 00:07:56.949
I mean I I didn't I didn't I didn't have any intention of buying anything.
00:07:57.030 --> 00:08:03.350
I was just trying to get into the you know get into the space and um yeah, took my little digital camera.
00:08:03.509 --> 00:08:14.069
You know, at the time it was a uh little Sony camera that that saved like images and very low resolution on on three and a half inch floppy disks.
00:08:14.230 --> 00:08:24.550
Okay, I mean it was yeah, so anyway, it it was like obviously this was all pre-social media, pre iPhone kind of thing, right?
00:08:24.790 --> 00:08:31.509
So um, you know, you you would so I'm I'm out on the show show floor going, oh this is cool.
00:08:31.590 --> 00:08:36.629
It's like you know, kid in a candy shop kind of thing, uh at the PGA show.
00:08:36.709 --> 00:08:38.309
It still is that way every time I go.
00:08:38.709 --> 00:08:41.750
I've been doing it, yeah, I've been going for 26, 27 years.
00:08:41.990 --> 00:08:49.909
And um, you know, you you had to have you had to ask permission to take pictures back then.
00:08:51.110 --> 00:08:51.429
Wow.
00:08:52.149 --> 00:08:58.709
Because it was an industry-only show and that was the one time a year that they were debuting their latest and greatest, right?
00:08:58.949 --> 00:09:06.470
And so so anyway, that was that was you know, when you put that in perspective to where we are now, right?
00:09:06.629 --> 00:09:11.350
It it's it's crazy to think that that's how it how it used to be, right?
00:09:11.509 --> 00:09:22.549
But anyway, so I've you know, had my my uh had my camera confiscated a couple times, and I have to go to secure go to the security office and get it back.
00:09:22.629 --> 00:09:24.629
It's like, no, you know, this is what I'm doing, right?
00:09:25.190 --> 00:09:29.830
I'm covering the show, like, you know, right on this website, right?
00:09:29.909 --> 00:09:30.389
Or whatever.
00:09:30.549 --> 00:09:31.350
They're like, what?
00:09:31.509 --> 00:09:32.549
What what's happening?
00:09:32.710 --> 00:09:44.470
So, I mean, you know, they there there were others, there obviously there was other websites then, okay, but it was, you know, it was golf, golf digest, all the all the mainstream media, you know, was doing that.
00:09:44.629 --> 00:09:52.310
And so, um, but there wasn't too many of us kind of like independence trying to try to carve a niche there.
00:09:52.389 --> 00:10:28.769
And and and of course today, I mean, you've got I mean, I I mean, like, my golf spy is probably the probably the you know the the best example of one covering everything, you know, purely social media online, everything, you know, today.
00:10:29.009 --> 00:10:33.889
Um but we were we were we were doing that back in uh I was doing that.
00:10:34.529 --> 00:10:39.569
The we, it's the collective we that you always use when you're when you're when you form a company, right?
00:10:39.730 --> 00:10:41.569
The the we is like you, right?
00:10:42.129 --> 00:10:42.689
Right, right.
00:10:42.769 --> 00:10:44.289
Yeah, you is one person.
00:10:44.449 --> 00:10:50.209
Yeah, you you at midnight to two in the morning kind of thing, you know, trying to crank out the latest content or whatever.
00:10:50.289 --> 00:11:00.370
But so in those early days, were you going and buying, and and I want to get to your two patents, but were you going and buying whatever the newest, latest, and greatest was?
00:11:00.610 --> 00:11:03.569
And I mean, this is well before track man.
00:11:04.289 --> 00:11:13.969
So uh tell me about how the the difference, obviously it's evolved tremendously, but the early days of testing equipment, what you would do, because now it's it's bonkers.
00:11:14.049 --> 00:11:18.449
I mean, I I can go get spinner, I mean, I can get everything I want, but what did it look like back then?
00:11:18.689 --> 00:11:21.809
So, so pre pre-launch monitors, right?
00:11:21.969 --> 00:11:27.089
I mean, you're you literally were doing what what anybody would do.
00:11:27.250 --> 00:11:32.529
I mean, I had a couple buddies that were you know good golfers, yeah, better than I, even.
00:11:32.689 --> 00:11:36.209
I mean, I mean, like better, you know, scratch golfer kind of guys.
00:11:36.289 --> 00:11:46.929
And um, you know, I I would we we would literally just go to go to our local pro shop when new stuff came out and and test all the demos.
00:11:47.009 --> 00:12:01.250
Did whatever they had for demos, we would, you know, we would just make notes on on what we thought and take pictures, you know, and just kind of like, I mean, you know, the face, the, the at address, the, you know, just all the stuff, right?
00:12:01.409 --> 00:12:04.850
The gear heads would would just be geeked out about, right?
00:12:05.009 --> 00:12:16.449
And you know, we we just we just provide our thoughts and try to put that in a in a relatively um, you know, I try to edit that so that we weren't bashing anything.
00:12:16.850 --> 00:12:28.449
But at the same time, we were highlighting advantages and you know, who who maybe that you know would would be who who that particular piece of equipment might appeal to, right?
00:12:28.529 --> 00:12:32.209
Whether it's a high handicap, you know, low handicap, whatever.
00:12:32.449 --> 00:12:34.689
Um just along those lines.
00:12:34.850 --> 00:12:51.409
And um yeah, so so probably around 2002 I I got a uh trying to think, I I think it was there's a company, one one of the first launch monitor companies, I think was it's called Accu Sport.
00:12:51.889 --> 00:12:54.289
Uh if if I remember, right?
00:12:54.449 --> 00:13:09.009
But but I went ahead and invested in this, you know, this this launch monitor, which was like, I don't know, at the time it was probably four to five thousand dollars, which you know, I didn't really uh those are real dollars.
00:13:09.250 --> 00:13:35.329
Yeah, well, yeah, you're and and and so um, you know, I had in in in this kind of in this this studio office space that I'm in, I actually had a uh a net set up in the far end, and I could do uh six iron and wedge testing uh in there, and it was a little bit too tight to do anything more like a driver, right?
00:13:35.490 --> 00:13:54.049
I mean, because you just kind of you know, you you start short arming everything, and um, and then that didn't really didn't really work out well because uh uh it it it was too small a space and uh I probably was a little naive in what you really needed to do that.
00:13:54.289 --> 00:14:12.449
And so after after a few uh incidents of gotballs flying where they shouldn't, you know, including, you know, down the stairs here, the other side of this wall, you know, it's I uh I decided we just need to go to the local range and rent some space and to do some of that testing.
00:14:12.610 --> 00:14:21.730
Uh but um anyway, it was we we built this house and the intent was to be able to have be able to do all that inside this room.
00:14:21.809 --> 00:14:28.370
It just the the our lot ended up being about 20 feet too short width wise to make it work.
00:14:28.610 --> 00:14:29.649
So anyway.
00:14:30.610 --> 00:14:38.850
Um yeah, so so so that that was early days of collecting, you know, like um for for a piece of equipment.
00:14:38.929 --> 00:14:58.370
So it went from purely the putting equipment in the hands of golfers, you know, and getting their feedback to actually collecting data relative to uh you know spin rate, launch angle, uh club head speed, ball speed, I mean uh just the whole gamut that we see today, right?
00:14:59.009 --> 00:15:15.089
And so that that that was uh what which which really created a the next level of a review that you could still have the subjective comments, I like the look, I don't like the look, I like this, I like that, the feel, but but then you could you could back that up with with some data, right?
00:15:15.329 --> 00:15:22.529
And so I I I think I I think that for me from with my engineering background, I mean that was that was phenomenal.
00:15:22.689 --> 00:15:26.049
I mean, I I couldn't I couldn't get enough of that, right?
00:15:26.370 --> 00:15:39.329
Because it it's which that was one of the questions I wanted to ask you is how much of your engineering background impacted your ability to look at the data and and form an opinion based on the numbers now that we're getting with the new the newer technology.
00:15:39.490 --> 00:15:39.809
Yeah.
00:15:40.209 --> 00:15:41.889
How how impactful has that been?
00:15:42.209 --> 00:15:51.329
Well, I mean I mean I think I think just just recognizing how to maybe uh design an experiment, if you will, or a test.
00:15:51.569 --> 00:15:51.809
Yeah.
00:15:51.969 --> 00:15:52.529
Yeah right.
00:15:52.689 --> 00:16:01.569
And so that so that uh so that when you get the data back, you know, it it is you you have the context around the data.
00:16:01.730 --> 00:16:09.490
That that that that's the whole that's really the whole issue with with anything, with marketing that we see today.
00:16:09.649 --> 00:16:25.809
Um and that that's actually how I got into the golf ball testing space, because the uh, you know, oh over time, instead of us going to demo day or whatever and testing everything, companies started sending me stuff, right?
00:16:26.049 --> 00:16:29.569
Which is a whole whole different, it's a it's a weird thing, right?
00:16:29.730 --> 00:16:41.649
I mean, yeah, I mean it's good, but it's it's also weird because you you you know you have to set up a policy to say, hey, you know, I'm testing this, they gave it to me for free, but here's the deal.
00:16:41.809 --> 00:16:49.089
You know, I'm I'm either putting in my bag, you know, I'm I'm selling it, I'm giving it away, or or whatever, right?
00:16:49.169 --> 00:16:52.129
And you right, you almost have to have a policy around that.
00:16:52.289 --> 00:16:56.769
Um because because it is weird when when boxes just start showing up.
00:16:56.929 --> 00:16:57.889
I mean, it's great.
00:16:58.049 --> 00:17:06.049
I mean, uh, but but it's also you you feel obligated to do a uh good review, and and and it doesn't always work.
00:17:06.210 --> 00:17:11.329
I mean, had a company send me some uh irons one time and I couldn't hit them.
00:17:11.809 --> 00:17:23.649
And I I mean and it turned out that the the the bounce angle or or there's something with it where I I couldn't like you literally you just dug in dug into the ground every time you swing.
00:17:23.730 --> 00:17:26.609
And I had I thought I thought it was me, right?
00:17:26.849 --> 00:17:33.730
I mean, I mean, so I had other golfers do it, and so yeah, I never published anything on that, right?
00:17:33.809 --> 00:17:41.569
But I but I I gave them kind of a you know a test report back to to say, hey, here's what we found, right?
00:17:41.649 --> 00:17:47.409
I'm not publishing this, but yeah, y'all need to go back to the drawing table and fix whatever this is, right?
00:17:47.649 --> 00:17:55.169
So, you know, and and I you know they may they may have no idea what they did with that, right?
00:17:55.329 --> 00:17:58.769
I mean, you know, but you know, they're they're they're no longer in business.
00:17:58.849 --> 00:17:59.489
I know that.
00:17:59.649 --> 00:18:01.569
So they didn't do anything with it then.
00:18:01.809 --> 00:18:15.089
Yeah, so anyway, but but it but but it it is a weird thing when when you're trying to provide your your unbiased opinion on things and you got people sending you stuff all the time, right?
00:18:15.329 --> 00:18:24.849
So um anyway, it it's a you know back in those early days it was kind of wild because everybody's still trying to figure out how to take advantage of the internet, right?
00:18:25.089 --> 00:18:28.849
Even pre-social media and how how do you how do you navigate all that?
00:18:29.009 --> 00:18:34.049
And then obviously when social media hit, it just all went exponential, right?
00:18:34.209 --> 00:18:43.889
And and you know, you didn't have to have any credentials to review or to you just had to be good at social media, right?
00:18:43.969 --> 00:18:54.609
And and that that that that's kind of the we the collective we, which is me, right, probably didn't pivot real well when social media hit.
00:18:54.929 --> 00:18:57.409
And it's not that I didn't see the power of it, right?
00:18:57.569 --> 00:19:01.569
It's just that it's a it's a different way of presenting content.
00:19:02.289 --> 00:19:21.249
You know, oh yeah, definitely, you know, and with my background, every you know, I always thought it was very important to have the credentials, right, and uh, you know, and the scientific approach to it, all those things that would back up what you're actually saying, right?
00:19:21.889 --> 00:19:33.329
And you know, and and there's you know, there's sites and content, I mean there's sites and social media accounts that have that today, right?
00:19:33.409 --> 00:19:36.209
But there's a whole bunch that don't have anything, right?
00:19:36.689 --> 00:19:41.329
You know, and it's just they're they're just very good at at at spinning information.
00:19:41.489 --> 00:19:43.089
So yeah, right, right.
00:19:43.169 --> 00:19:44.929
They can make it look something really pretty.
00:19:45.089 --> 00:19:45.409
Yeah.
00:19:45.569 --> 00:19:47.969
Um yeah, lipstick on a pig kind of deal.
00:19:48.129 --> 00:19:48.689
Yep, yep.
00:19:49.009 --> 00:20:04.289
Um, what in in your mind though, what are the most important metrics that Gary Mays for equipped to golf that whether it be the golf ball or golf club, what were the most important metrics for you when you were evaluating or are evaluating?
00:20:04.769 --> 00:20:12.609
Well, I I I mean I I mean I think you I think you just need to try a lot of different stuff, right?
00:20:12.769 --> 00:20:18.289
Okay and figure out what is best suited you know for your game.
00:20:18.449 --> 00:20:32.049
And uh uh just to give you a kind of an example, when when we started testing golf balls, um you know, it it I mean it's important what it does off a driver, what it does off a wedge, an iron, all those things.
00:20:32.369 --> 00:20:36.689
Equally as important what it what happens off the putter face, right?
00:20:36.849 --> 00:21:02.849
Well, right, you know, so if you if you are a golfer that preferred a softer feeling ball, right, and and you put it with a insert putter, you know, like a like a softer callaway insert or or whatever, well you know that that same ball is gonna feel different if you don't if you putt with just a like a milled face, right?
00:21:02.929 --> 00:21:04.769
Like a non-insert putter, right?
00:21:05.089 --> 00:21:10.369
Okay, and so it's gonna sound different, okay, it's gonna feel different in your hands.
00:21:10.689 --> 00:21:18.769
Um you you can you can literally apply that to every single phase of uh of your bag, right?
00:21:19.009 --> 00:21:32.289
And you you you may be uh, you know, you and I may have the same like club speed, okay, but but my tempo may be um a lot better than mine.
00:21:32.529 --> 00:21:45.809
Well no, no, no, but but but it but it may be more consistent back and through as to where you have some people that like uh just as an example, John John Rom takes it back, he doesn't even get anywhere near parallel, right?
00:21:46.049 --> 00:21:46.849
Okay, right.
00:21:47.009 --> 00:22:03.729
But his move right there at that three quarters, you know, he's generating kind of the same, you know, clubhead speed as I don't know, maybe somebody like uh trying to think of a like Adam Scott has got like this incredibly smooth swing, right?
00:22:04.049 --> 00:22:16.769
Yeah, right, but but they're they're generating the same club speed or or similar, uh maybe not the same, but I mean which is wild to think I've never like busted their swings, but yeah, that's crazy to think about.
00:22:16.929 --> 00:22:19.729
Yeah, but but it's there's two different ways of getting there, right?
00:22:19.889 --> 00:22:28.769
Yeah, and and and and I think you know what we found out in golf ball testing is that um you know that matters, right?
00:22:29.169 --> 00:22:42.689
Because I, you know, end of the day, you know, one of them's gonna be launching it maybe a little higher or a little lower or compressing the ball just a little different, even though their club, you know, the angle of attack is different, right?
00:22:42.769 --> 00:22:47.009
And and all those things uh impact the the spin on the ball.
00:22:47.729 --> 00:22:49.969
And depending on depending on your ball flight, right?
00:22:50.049 --> 00:22:54.609
I mean, it's if you're it's gonna make your fade, fade more, it's gonna make you draw, draw more, right?
00:22:54.689 --> 00:22:55.249
Kind of thing.
00:22:55.409 --> 00:23:06.849
So um anyway, that that that that that's kind of what and then when the pro v1 came out, uh, you know, that you know clearly was a game changer in the golf ball space.
00:23:07.089 --> 00:23:13.649
Um, and so everybody's ads just compared everything to the Pro V1, right?
00:23:13.809 --> 00:23:23.089
I can remember being in a pro shop and like I I think it was Wilson as they were getting back into golf balls, you know, they they had three models.
00:23:23.169 --> 00:23:31.329
They had the distance model, the uh control model, and then the the feel model or something, right?
00:23:31.409 --> 00:23:42.609
I mean, the three spectrums of that you could have, and and the little little advertising thing on the box, they all compare, they all said it was five yards longer than the Pro V1.
00:23:43.089 --> 00:23:47.969
And so I'm I'm kind of like, you know, I'm looking at this because I could all three.
00:23:48.209 --> 00:23:54.289
Well, I I mean, there one's a two-piece construction, one's a three-piece construction, one's a four-piece construction.
00:23:54.449 --> 00:24:01.969
And just just I'm looking at that and going like okay, you know, how how is that?
00:24:02.129 --> 00:24:09.969
Well, you know, and they they they they claim to have you know um robot data to back it up, right?
00:24:10.129 --> 00:24:13.489
Which which come to find out, I mean, it was probably accurate.
00:24:13.729 --> 00:24:29.409
Okay, it's just that you know, the the the one model, if you you, if you if it was like low swing speed, high launch, okay, it was in fact, you know, five yards longer than the Pro V1.
00:24:29.649 --> 00:24:34.529
While the other model was high speed, you know, high launch, right?
00:24:34.689 --> 00:24:40.129
And it was in fact, you know, and that particular test, right, was yeah, five yards longer, right?
00:24:40.289 --> 00:24:43.569
So so that that so they made the variables work for themselves.
00:24:45.089 --> 00:24:45.329
100%.
00:24:45.569 --> 00:24:45.969
Yeah, okay.
00:24:46.369 --> 00:24:49.169
All right, so so they're they're they're not lying, right?
00:24:49.409 --> 00:24:53.569
I mean, but but again, it goes back to the little bit of the context there is missing, right?
00:24:53.649 --> 00:25:00.289
For the well, you know, which is you know, not not, I mean, you do marketing for a reason, right?
00:25:00.369 --> 00:25:01.569
To sell your product, right?
00:25:01.649 --> 00:25:06.289
So, you know, that's some of the fine print that you may or may not have read, right?
00:25:06.369 --> 00:25:11.649
I mean, and they're they're they're they're not gonna share exactly everything they did, right?
00:25:11.729 --> 00:25:16.369
But yeah, push come to shove, they probably had the the data to to back it up, right?
00:25:16.769 --> 00:25:41.169
You know, so that that that's kind of what led to um I I started with this early launch monitor, started testing golf balls, I uh grabbed a couple of scratch golfers, and we would go collect data, you know, and and I just started publishing that data um on equipped to golf.
00:25:41.249 --> 00:25:54.609
And it was it was very but it was very uh I was very specific in saying, hey, for this swing speed, this launch condition, this, you know, all these parameters, right?
00:25:54.689 --> 00:26:03.249
I I was I was very uh open about what you know the conditions of the test, right?
00:26:03.569 --> 00:26:03.889
Okay.
00:26:04.049 --> 00:26:06.529
And so that that that that that kind of got some traction.
00:26:06.609 --> 00:26:16.449
And then I thought, well, okay, that this is you know, I came up with a rating system which which led the uh the method of rating golf balls, that patent.
00:26:16.929 --> 00:26:23.969
Um uh and it was just basically the pro the how do you go about testing it rating, right?
00:26:24.049 --> 00:26:37.169
And so it was everything from uh spin, distance, uh durability, uh compression, cover hardness, uh just kind of that whole gamut, right?
00:26:37.329 --> 00:27:04.689
Just kind of laid that out in that patent, and and uh, you know, it took took me it took me probably five years to get it get it through uh the patent process, um which was very uh uh was not inexpensive, you know, but but it was also one of those, it almost became a little bit of a labor of love kind of thing.
00:27:05.009 --> 00:27:05.169
Right?
00:27:05.729 --> 00:27:09.009
And and I felt I felt I was right in what I was doing, right?
00:27:09.169 --> 00:27:13.649
Yeah, and I I didn't think the examiner was right uh in the response.
00:27:13.729 --> 00:27:27.649
They they they really didn't know how to handle it because um you know some of the pushbacks they were showing me like titles ads from the 70s saying, you know, if you hit the ball a long way, buy this ball or whatever, right?
00:27:27.809 --> 00:27:31.649
And you know, I was like, okay, that's that's not one, that's marketing.
00:27:31.729 --> 00:27:33.649
It goes back to the marketing hype, right?
00:27:33.729 --> 00:27:34.689
And right, right.
00:27:34.769 --> 00:27:36.929
Um anyway, it was it was an interesting process.
00:27:37.009 --> 00:27:40.929
I mean, I learned a whole lot about the patent uh system.
00:27:41.809 --> 00:27:50.609
And uh, you know, and and at some point it just became I was gonna get it, get it done or or be done kind of thing.
00:27:50.689 --> 00:27:57.809
And so if we finally got it done, and it was almost like that was the uh, you know, I don't want to say that was the pinnacle, right?
00:27:57.969 --> 00:28:01.489
But but anything after that, I almost didn't care, right?
00:28:01.649 --> 00:28:10.529
Because I I kind of realized this probably wasn't gonna be my full-time job as much as I uh as much as I was thinking at some point it could be, right?
00:28:11.169 --> 00:28:20.529
Um anyway, so that that that kind of started the the the golf ball testing phase of equipped to golf.
00:28:20.609 --> 00:28:27.489
And then I was at the PGA show and I was looking for um looking for somebody that owned a robot.
00:28:27.969 --> 00:28:35.249
Because I I was I was at this point where I was ready to spend money to have somebody test with my protocol.
00:28:35.809 --> 00:28:36.289
Really test.
00:28:36.449 --> 00:28:37.089
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:28:37.649 --> 00:28:52.849
They would take the protocol uh protocol outlined with my patent, and I would ship them, you know, whatever, 40 dozen golf balls, right, uh, of everything, the the newest stuff, and then come back with the data.
00:28:52.929 --> 00:28:59.409
And I ran into uh uh a guy named Mitch Vojis.
00:28:59.569 --> 00:29:03.649
Okay, so so he owned a company called Max Out Golf.
00:29:03.969 --> 00:29:13.009
And uh Mitch was the um was known in the in the golf industry because he was the 19, I believe it was 1991 U.S.
00:29:13.089 --> 00:29:14.049
amateur winner.
00:29:14.929 --> 00:29:25.249
Um and what what what made that uh interesting, he was he was 39, I think, at the time, okay?
00:29:25.729 --> 00:29:29.729
Which is which is which is weird to think about today, right?
00:29:29.969 --> 00:29:30.129
Yeah.
00:29:30.369 --> 00:29:45.489
But but Mitch Mitch Mitch played he played he played that like with with uh uh like cast cavity back irons, okay, and metal woods.
00:29:47.089 --> 00:30:03.169
And or maybe maybe it was it was persimmon, but with graphite, but he he he and and like a like a pinnacle, like like a golf ball, you would never think that you know a uh uh somebody could win with a top-ranked amateur would could ever win with.
00:30:03.329 --> 00:30:09.969
Well, Mitch had figured out that he'd figured out a lot of stuff that I was figuring out, right?
00:30:10.129 --> 00:30:11.889
He had already figured it out, right?
00:30:12.129 --> 00:30:12.449
Yeah.
00:30:12.609 --> 00:30:21.569
He was an accomplished amateur, and he won, and and he's like, Well, hey, I I've got a you know, I've got a I've got a uh robot.
00:30:21.969 --> 00:30:23.569
He's like, why don't we why don't we talk?
00:30:23.649 --> 00:30:23.969
You're right.
00:30:24.129 --> 00:30:39.409
So I f I flew out to Sherman Oaks, California, and we we kind of went through some things and we we created a joint venture to go pursue you know golf ball testing and created an app at the time called uh golf ball selector.
00:30:39.729 --> 00:30:46.449
And and again, that this was still pre-beat uh social media, so all this was website you know driven.
00:30:46.529 --> 00:31:10.609
And we tested a ton of golf balls, we created a data model and ultimately um created this app that you as a golf was a subscription-based service, you would go in and pay your fee either monthly or or annual, and um you would create your profile based on your preferences.
00:31:10.849 --> 00:31:14.369
If you had your launch monitor data, you could submit it, right?
00:31:15.569 --> 00:31:27.009
And then then we we had you know, we we'd built the algorithms to take that information and match it up with with all the data we collected from a golf ball and say, hey, here's your here's your top five kind of golf balls.
00:31:27.089 --> 00:31:28.849
We'd rank order every ball.
00:31:29.089 --> 00:31:41.249
Um, and then we would at the at the time what you could you could do like uh take your top six, we we would send you two golf balls of that model, right?
00:31:41.489 --> 00:31:51.649
And you know, so so you could literally go test it on the course, because we I mean, we knew that you had to get on the golf course to really to verify these things, right?
00:31:52.289 --> 00:32:04.529
I mean, end of the day, I mean you you can sit there behind a computer and you know all this theoretical stuff, but the end of the day, you had to you had to figure it out like from and primarily it starts at the green, right?
00:32:04.609 --> 00:32:13.889
I mean, you're chipping and putting kind of thing, and then work your way back up to the T, but obviously you get to the T and you got a ball you can't you can't keep in the fairway.
00:32:14.369 --> 00:32:18.209
I mean, it could be the ball, but it's probably your swing, right?
00:32:18.289 --> 00:32:27.729
I mean, you know, but that was one of the questions yeah I had for you is is what's the most important thing in your mind that someone should consider when they're shopping for a golf ball?
00:32:28.049 --> 00:32:28.929
Oh gosh.
00:32:29.089 --> 00:32:38.849
Um so so I I I I would say um it it it it kind of does depend on your ability, right?
00:32:39.089 --> 00:32:39.329
Okay.
00:32:39.489 --> 00:32:40.689
I mean fair answer.
00:32:40.849 --> 00:32:57.329
I mean, I mean, I you know, if you don't um you know, yeah, I I I say that, okay, but we also we also found we had some uh senior golfers, which which I'm in that category now, which is kind of funny.
00:32:57.409 --> 00:33:00.769
Uh you know, you wake up one day and you're like, oh I'm I'm I'm in that category.
00:33:00.929 --> 00:33:01.649
You get to move up a T.
00:33:01.889 --> 00:33:02.849
I'm in that category, right?
00:33:03.009 --> 00:33:06.049
Yeah, move up a T, which is glorious, by the way.
00:33:06.289 --> 00:33:19.649
Um But the the what what we found though is like like some golfers needed a higher spinning ball in order to help them get the ball in the air more.
00:33:20.289 --> 00:33:20.929
Interesting.
00:33:21.249 --> 00:33:39.889
Yeah, so so you know they're they're you know, they're they're budget conscious, you know, buying buying the you know the$20, you know, two-piece ball that you know doesn't spin much, right, thinking that they're gonna get extra distance.
00:33:40.049 --> 00:33:43.649
Well, come to find out because of their slower swing speed, right?
00:33:43.889 --> 00:33:51.089
I mean, it's they they needed more spin from an aerodynamics perspective to for the ball to be in the air longer.
00:33:51.249 --> 00:33:51.649
Right.
00:33:51.809 --> 00:34:10.449
So that there's a lot of things that I mean, we we we got feedback based on fittings and you know, ended up having to defend a lot of a lot of our testing protocol, all this stuff, because it's like you know, I remember getting an email, somebody saying, Well, you know, titleist says that this is the best ball for me.
00:34:10.690 --> 00:34:14.849
You know, you didn't say that that was the best ball for me, so you can't be right.
00:34:15.090 --> 00:34:21.170
I was like, okay, well I mean what what what do you I mean Yeah, how do you how do you combat that?
00:34:21.409 --> 00:34:24.849
No, yeah, it's like well, you know, they are trying to sell you their golf ball, right?
00:34:24.929 --> 00:34:30.529
I mean, I I I'm I'm a title, I I I have my whole bag's titleist, I play a titleist golf ball.
00:34:30.610 --> 00:34:40.769
I mean, all right, so so but you know, just the common sense part, you know, it's it's kind of like it's like, yeah, well, what what what did what did you expect them to tell you, right?
00:34:41.009 --> 00:34:44.929
So anyway, um yeah.
00:34:46.289 --> 00:34:47.809
No, that's that makes complete sense.
00:34:47.889 --> 00:34:59.009
And and that's that's uh because I I was gonna ask you also, with your wealth of knowledge and just the the catalog that's in your brain and all the data that you compiled over, like I said, nearly three decades.
00:34:59.649 --> 00:35:09.889
Have you uh ventured into doing any any fittings and suggesting clubs to people, or do you let someone take the data that you've compiled and discern from themselves?
00:35:10.609 --> 00:35:24.049
No, it's it's we we we the uh the company that I was working with to do the golf ball testing, they they they covered the entire like uh fitting space.
00:35:24.210 --> 00:35:28.609
Okay and I I I never really ventured into that.
00:35:28.690 --> 00:35:31.569
I mean I can I can I can help somebody, right?
00:35:31.730 --> 00:35:56.929
I mean, but that that that's never it's never it's never really been uh I and I don't know if it's just because when I started this, this was just like I I just was kind of going through and thinking things that were essential for me, you know, that that I needed to like that I liked or or that I felt every golfer should do or or have or consider or whatever.
00:35:57.170 --> 00:36:00.049
And so that that that's really where it started.
00:36:00.129 --> 00:36:07.009
I I didn't really anticipate getting to the you know, I was in the golf ball testing space for like 15 years probably.
00:36:07.089 --> 00:36:10.609
And yeah, and it just we we didn't we didn't pivot well.
00:36:10.769 --> 00:36:32.849
I think I mentioned this with social media and and then it then it also at the at the at the same time it just got it got to be uh it was just really hard to keep up because companies were releasing stuff felt like every six to six months to a year, that's where the cycle used to be almost like every two years.
00:36:33.089 --> 00:36:45.409
And so, you know, we we would we would put out an update, you know, with the latest golf balls, and then like a month later you'd have 15 new golf balls come out, and everybody's complaining that you haven't got them out there yet, right?
00:36:45.489 --> 00:36:47.969
And it just took time to test.
00:36:48.210 --> 00:37:06.210
I mean, the the the cycle product cycles have really uh uh in golf balls, but but it especially in equipment drivers, I mean, the whole Tailor made, if you if you go back and look at TailorMade, it seemed like every six months they were releasing a new driver for a period of 10 years, right?
00:37:06.609 --> 00:37:18.369
I mean, yeah, and and you know, you're you're kind of like, well, is it is it really that much better than the one I just spent$400 for six months ago?
00:37:18.609 --> 00:37:18.849
Right.
00:37:19.009 --> 00:37:19.250
Right.
00:37:19.329 --> 00:37:28.449
I mean, well, and has has the technology plateaued, like have we have we finally hit a breaking point where there's nothing else that can happen?
00:37:29.730 --> 00:37:34.609
I I mean personally, I I I kind of think I kind of think it has.
00:37:34.769 --> 00:37:46.129
Now, I I still think this is really why we got into the golf ball space, because um I I feel like there's still this optimization piece, right?
00:37:46.690 --> 00:37:50.690
Whether it's the the specific head design, the shaft.
00:37:50.769 --> 00:37:56.210
I mean the shaft is probably you know the most important part.
00:37:56.449 --> 00:37:56.769
Probably.
00:37:56.849 --> 00:37:59.730
I mean, it's the engine, if you will, of all this stuff.
00:37:59.889 --> 00:38:06.049
And um, you know, and there the the I I think there's still some room for some advances there.
00:38:06.289 --> 00:38:29.649
Um you know, but but we're we're we're in a weird place in the industry because it's also like we're talking about golf ball rollback, we're talking about like uh, you know, still talking about like club face, you know, should we go back to a little bit smaller head, you know, the the COR uh the rebound effect off a face.
00:38:29.809 --> 00:38:30.529
I mean, yeah.
00:38:30.690 --> 00:38:34.449
And so I I I I'm not really sure where it's gonna end up.
00:38:34.609 --> 00:38:46.609
Uh I mean I I but but but I know that it would be really cool to see um some limitations on our uh uh on our professional uh at the attack.
00:38:46.769 --> 00:38:48.289
So you are for bike recation.
00:38:48.929 --> 00:38:50.369
Uh I'm really not.
00:38:50.609 --> 00:38:52.769
Okay, but but but I am, I'm for it.
00:38:52.849 --> 00:38:54.210
Well, it's they play a different game.
00:38:54.449 --> 00:38:55.889
Yeah, it it is, it is.
00:38:56.049 --> 00:39:05.009
Uh the the there's still something just like maybe romantic about knowing that we're playing the same whatever golf ball cap.
00:39:05.250 --> 00:39:10.929
But in reality, you know, when I when I peel that back, we're not.
00:39:11.170 --> 00:39:15.489
We're not playing the same stuff because they have their own yeah, they they can get whatever they want, right?
00:39:15.569 --> 00:39:40.929
So yeah, how many different versions of Pro V1s are there?
00:39:41.010 --> 00:39:43.170
And there's what four available to the market?
00:39:43.409 --> 00:39:44.369
Yep, yeah, yep.
00:39:44.530 --> 00:39:52.130
Yeah, because I because I get frustrated sometimes seeing some of the tour uh equipment and going like, I want that putter, right?
00:39:52.210 --> 00:39:53.329
I mean, or whatever, right?
00:39:53.409 --> 00:39:54.929
I like that blade or whatever.
00:39:55.010 --> 00:39:58.690
I mean, like, like don't tell me about it unless I get it, right?
00:39:58.849 --> 00:40:12.530
I mean, so anyway, that that's uh yeah, I I my the traditional part of me doesn't want bifurcation, but I mean I ultimately it's it's probably probably where we're headed and and probably for a good thing.
00:40:12.690 --> 00:40:23.970
It's one of the few sports though that's left to where at least in in the optics is is that we're still playing the same course, we're playing the same whatever, right?
00:40:25.250 --> 00:40:26.929
Even though we're really not, I guess.
00:40:27.010 --> 00:40:34.929
You know, it's probably uh over all your years uh in this industry, what technology do you think was the most overhyped?
00:40:35.730 --> 00:40:43.650
Oh wow, that's a that's a good um uh oh that's that's a great question, Josh.
00:40:44.130 --> 00:40:45.970
Kind of caught me caught me off guard there.
00:40:46.050 --> 00:40:46.929
Uh no, it's fun.
00:40:47.010 --> 00:40:48.929
And and I don't mind if you need to take a minute to think about it.
00:40:49.010 --> 00:40:57.409
I was just now I I well man, that's uh I mean it it I don't know.
00:40:57.490 --> 00:41:12.210
You you that that that's a little bit hard for me to answer as a with my technology background because I'm I'm the hype man when it comes to like oh this is this is cool, right?
00:41:12.289 --> 00:41:30.130
I mean, I I can remember when they were they were uh talking about like uh uh like I'm trying to think like spining the the shaft or whatever, finding the finding the spine of the shaft of a graphite shaft because of how they were manufactured, right?
00:41:30.289 --> 00:41:42.929
And you could you could literally find the most consistent uh kick point, if you will, in a shaft, and that's how it needed to be like um installed, right?
00:41:43.010 --> 00:41:47.889
Or right right and okay, and and so I was kind of like uh come on, right?
00:41:47.970 --> 00:41:51.170
I mean, part of me was like this can't be a thing, right?
00:41:51.250 --> 00:41:54.769
And then and then it's like they did the testing, right?
00:41:54.849 --> 00:42:10.210
And and it showed that if it's not aligned, uh that that the the the the other example is like uh uh I don't know if you ever heard about the golf ball, spinning the golf ball and finding the yeah, like in like doing does.
00:42:10.369 --> 00:42:11.250
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:42:11.409 --> 00:42:15.329
Right, and and you're sitting there going like uh come on, man.
00:42:15.490 --> 00:42:15.730
Right.
00:42:15.809 --> 00:42:18.769
And then then we we got to testing golf balls, right?
00:42:18.849 --> 00:42:24.210
And we're cutting them in half, and we found some that had cores that were not centered, right?
00:42:24.369 --> 00:42:26.130
And so I was like, oh, okay.
00:42:26.289 --> 00:42:36.449
Well, yeah, certainly a core not centered to golf ball is gonna not gonna it's gonna go, you know, right, it's not gonna fly one over the other, it's not gonna fly true, right?
00:42:36.610 --> 00:42:47.490
So so so just this whole concept of of the optimization of things, right, makes it hard to say what what what it was.
00:42:47.570 --> 00:43:02.530
Because I mean, I you know, I I mean I I could say something about the graphite shaft, maybe, but but at the same time, I mean, you know, and maybe it's looking at my bag now, I've got more graphite now than I ever had, right?
00:43:02.849 --> 00:43:09.329
And so, and then you know, they that and over over time they've improved the manufacturing of all these things, right?
00:43:09.490 --> 00:43:14.530
And so, so uh I don't know.
00:43:14.610 --> 00:43:16.130
But that's a that's a good question.
00:43:16.210 --> 00:43:18.929
I'll have to I'll have to noodle on that.
00:43:19.490 --> 00:43:34.449
Well, and the first thing that came to mind my mind my mind when I wrote that down, and for no reason other than I thought it was horrendous and the sound it made was even worse, was the Nike Sasquatch driver.
00:43:34.769 --> 00:43:46.610
Yes, yeah, so so if if you go back uh even before that, Callaway came out with something called the uh I may get this wrong, but it doesn't matter.
00:43:46.690 --> 00:43:48.050
I'm old, so I can get things wrong.
00:43:48.130 --> 00:43:55.809
But but but it's like the it's like the ERC, which was what's Eli Callaway's um yeah, you know initials, right?
00:43:55.889 --> 00:43:58.130
I mean the the the founder of Callaway.
00:43:58.610 --> 00:44:18.130
And I I can remember I remember being at the at our local driving range under like a roof, you know, hitting out you know onto the open space, hitting that thing for the first time, and the sound that it made made everybody stop and look at me.
00:44:18.530 --> 00:44:18.849
Right?
00:44:19.010 --> 00:44:21.650
And and it as you're grinning and not for good reasons?
00:44:21.809 --> 00:44:24.530
Yeah, no, it was it was crazy loud.
00:44:24.690 --> 00:44:27.809
I mean, it I I don't know, it was just it felt awful, right?
00:44:27.889 --> 00:44:41.010
But I mean it was and it it was a uh I feel like that's when they were doing like the some of the early days of composite faces, of mixing composite and and metal and titanium faces.
00:44:41.170 --> 00:44:52.610
Uh but that that thing was I I mean I I took one swing and I could I couldn't, I was like, ugh, I I can't, I don't, you know, and here I'm here I'm trying to test it report on this, right?
00:44:52.769 --> 00:44:58.210
I'm sitting there having to take as many swings as possible, and I've got everybody just going like, dude, just stop.
00:44:58.369 --> 00:44:59.730
You know, this is it's awful.
00:45:00.210 --> 00:45:02.769
Everyone on the range wants to know who's shooting the 12 gauge.
00:45:02.929 --> 00:45:03.570
Yeah, exactly.
00:45:03.650 --> 00:45:07.889
But but the the the Sasquatch was in that same realm, though.
00:45:08.210 --> 00:45:09.170
It was so bad.
00:45:09.329 --> 00:45:09.650
Yeah, it was.
00:45:26.690 --> 00:45:29.170
I mean they they were they're trying to figure it all out, right?
00:45:29.409 --> 00:45:51.730
Um and so there's just a a lot of uh a lot of interesting, you know, that that's kind of the the glory days of the late 90s, early 2000s, as it's all that as we were moving from you know past the early days of of metal woods into the composite and titanium and how how you handled everything else.
00:45:51.889 --> 00:45:54.530
I mean anyway.
00:45:55.090 --> 00:46:00.050
Do you remember the first time you swung a metal wood and like what that was like?
00:46:01.809 --> 00:46:03.730
Um yeah.
00:46:03.970 --> 00:46:15.650
Uh yeah, I it I had had like I think at the time I was playing like some it wasn't persimmon woods, although I had some.
00:46:15.889 --> 00:46:19.250
I was playing like more like laminated laminated woods.
00:46:19.329 --> 00:46:28.849
So so Ping Ping was really Ping was one of the last companies to to uh offer wood woods.
00:46:29.170 --> 00:46:31.329
And they they they they were some of the best.
00:46:31.490 --> 00:46:49.250
I mean I I had this this ping, I think it's called ISI Tour 7 Wood that I had in the bag for what which it which is crazy because I've now just now got a title as seven wood that I've come back to, or that I've I've finally said, okay, these are easier to hit.
00:46:49.570 --> 00:46:59.409
But but I had had had that ping uh laminated you know wood in the bag for a really long time.
00:46:59.730 --> 00:47:01.570
And it's just it just felt good, right?
00:47:01.730 --> 00:47:11.650
And and I can remember hitting or going to a demo day and hitting a metal wood, and it's like it just just how it shot off the face was different.
00:47:12.449 --> 00:47:20.849
And and I had to I had to really like pay attention to the distance part because it was it was significantly more.
00:47:21.010 --> 00:47:25.970
And it and it again it goes back to you gotta still gotta hit the right shaft.
00:47:26.289 --> 00:47:26.449
Right?
00:47:26.530 --> 00:47:46.610
That that that's the other part, you know, that that you just can't ignore, um, especially when you're testing new equipment, because you just, you know, and to this day, I mean you can get on a launch minor and get the numbers, but it's also good to have, you know, it's it's getting harder and harder to uh to have you know experienced fitters, right?
00:47:46.769 --> 00:47:51.889
These older guys that can go, okay, that that's the that's the window that you're that's what you need.
00:47:52.050 --> 00:47:52.369
Right.
00:47:52.530 --> 00:47:52.849
Right.
00:47:53.170 --> 00:47:59.650
And uh unfortunately, you know, I feel like we're we're there's not many of those guys left, right?
00:48:00.130 --> 00:48:00.449
Right.
00:48:00.610 --> 00:48:15.570
I mean, mu much like our uh some of our uh you know best you know club makers, you know, you know, they're they're getting on up in years, and and so now everything's kind of computer and it's all it's all tech based, right?
00:48:15.730 --> 00:48:52.130
There's still there's still some good ones out there, but um, but yeah, it it I I I I think I like the fact that you could just hit it all over the face and not damage, right?
00:48:52.210 --> 00:48:55.730
I mean you can you could hit bad shots, I mean, you know, yeah, chunk things.
00:48:55.810 --> 00:48:59.330
I mean it was just it was it was just it's kind of a game changer in that regard.
00:48:59.490 --> 00:49:03.410
You could just wash them, clean them up, and they just look brand new again, right?
00:49:03.490 --> 00:49:07.810
Which is which and I love what you touched on about the shaft, and I experienced this firsthand.
00:49:07.970 --> 00:49:13.410
Um, my wife gave me a mini driver for my birthday, and it had a shaft in it, and I went to do the fitting.
00:49:13.490 --> 00:49:18.770
She wouldn't have made it actually have the present to open on my birthday, so it still included a fitting.
00:49:18.930 --> 00:49:27.170
And the brand new shaft that was in it, I hit the same head on an identical demo shaft and was getting better numbers.
00:49:27.330 --> 00:49:31.250
And the guy that did the fitting, he was like, Man, he's like, these are all like handmade.
00:49:31.410 --> 00:49:39.890
He's like, So that one, that demo shaft, he's like, You're going home with that one because the numbers on that, I mean, they were substantially better.
00:49:40.130 --> 00:49:43.010
Like, it wasn't like just a one-off here, one off there.
00:49:43.090 --> 00:49:49.570
Um, spin rate, I mean, everything was exactly how we wanted it on the demo shaft, not the one that was brand new.
00:49:49.650 --> 00:49:51.090
And that that blew my mind.
00:49:51.250 --> 00:49:53.170
Yeah, it's it's kind of crazy.
00:49:53.330 --> 00:50:11.730
I mean, I've had that same experience, and you know, you you what which which goes back to I'm I'm pretty convinced that that everybody could be optimized for every part of the bag if you have the time and the wherewithal and the patience and yeah, you know, to to go through that.
00:50:11.970 --> 00:50:20.690
Uh and and like like you said, I mean that that was a case where uh you know you really understand why you're hitting one better than the other, right?
00:50:21.010 --> 00:50:28.770
And what whether that particular shaft, maybe maybe that shaft went through that spinning process and it was optimized for you know for aligned correctly.
00:50:28.850 --> 00:50:29.250
I don't know.
00:50:29.410 --> 00:50:57.410
I mean, you know, and so there's there's there's a lot of it, uh there's a lot of trial and error still with it, uh, even though it's gotten down to to uh so much of a science these days that uh I mean I think if you can find find a good fitter that you can trust and um you know I I'm and I'm also a believer that like you could I could probably go to every brand and and find something that would work for me these days.
00:50:58.130 --> 00:50:58.450
Right.
00:50:58.610 --> 00:51:03.810
And and so you know, because everybody's like, well, what who should I should play titleist, Callaway, Taylor Brain?
00:51:03.890 --> 00:51:07.410
I was like, you know, you know, what what what brand do you like?
00:51:07.650 --> 00:51:12.290
And then then let's, you know, just let's just go from there, right?
00:51:12.370 --> 00:51:14.690
And then you you may find something you can hit better, right?
00:51:14.770 --> 00:51:24.930
But like like I like I know I I went to a fitting and they were putting me in some Taylor-made super game improvement, something, and I my numbers were off the charts, right?
00:51:25.010 --> 00:51:29.410
But but I was kind of like, I I don't I don't like the look of that, right?
00:51:29.570 --> 00:51:33.570
I mean, I mean I literally could not play that because I didn't like the look.
00:51:33.810 --> 00:51:35.250
That's how you felt standing over it, yeah.
00:51:35.410 --> 00:51:35.810
Yeah, yeah.
00:51:35.970 --> 00:51:46.690
And it just it just wasn't uh, you know, I didn't feel I could control the ball as well, you know, because because the numbers were just something very foreign to me, right?
00:51:47.170 --> 00:51:50.770
So anyway, but I mean all all that kind of goes into it.
00:51:51.170 --> 00:52:04.210
There's there's really not any to me, there's really not any right or wrong to any of it other than you just need to figure out what works for you and and ultimately that is more than your equipment, right?
00:52:04.290 --> 00:52:06.450
You you you gotta have a repeating swing.
00:52:06.610 --> 00:52:10.850
I don't care if you're slicing it 30 yards every time, okay.
00:52:11.090 --> 00:52:15.330
If you know that's what's gonna happen, well now you can play the game, right?
00:52:15.570 --> 00:52:17.330
And and and score, right?
00:52:17.410 --> 00:52:21.730
I mean, uh, and so that that that's that's the other the ironic part.
00:52:21.810 --> 00:52:29.490
I mean, I spent all this time looking at equipment, and at the end of the day, I you know, if my swing's not there, it doesn't really matter, right?
00:52:29.650 --> 00:52:33.730
Right, you know, so anyway, it's it's a matter of balance across the board.
00:52:33.970 --> 00:52:43.650
So um, one last question, and then I got a couple of quick hitters uh before, and then I I need to go ahead and get your commitment to come back on the show.
00:52:43.730 --> 00:52:50.130
Uh, right before we started recording, you gave us a little tour of all the different countries and the golf flags.
00:52:50.370 --> 00:53:05.250
Um so I I hope this has been an enjoyable conversation for you because I would love to have you back on and just talk about the different countries and places you've been and all those different golf experiences because it's uh I mean it's remarkable all the places that you've been.
00:53:05.330 --> 00:53:07.010
So I'd love to pick your brain there.
00:53:07.170 --> 00:53:16.770
Um, but what is if if if somebody has the time to get fitted for one piece of equipment in their golf bag, in your mind, what is the most important piece?
00:53:17.570 --> 00:53:19.090
Another great question.
00:53:19.330 --> 00:53:19.730
Jeez.
00:53:20.210 --> 00:53:36.610
Um well, I mean, I I I would tend to I would tend to lean toward the driver just because you know your whole if you can't get off the T, you're not playing the game.
00:53:36.690 --> 00:53:38.210
Uh you you're not, right?
00:53:38.370 --> 00:53:48.530
And and I mean I've I've played with a bunch of golfers that once they're off the T, yeah, and you really see this like in a in a scramble format, right?
00:53:48.690 --> 00:54:12.370
That that that once they're off the T, if they're in the middle of the fairway, their game's pretty good coming in, or what you know, but but if you can't consistently uh hit the ball where you're aiming off the T, then it it just becomes a real um real challenge because you're you're if the ball's not in play, well obviously you're you're a couple you're a stroke, stroke and a half, two strokes down right out of the gate.
00:54:12.530 --> 00:54:13.090
And it's hard.
00:54:13.250 --> 00:54:15.170
You can't right you can't make that up, right?
00:54:15.330 --> 00:54:19.010
But yeah, anyway, that that's that's what I would suggest.
00:54:19.250 --> 00:54:21.330
But it's a great answer.
00:54:21.570 --> 00:54:24.930
All right, a couple quick questions and we'll let you get out of here.
00:54:25.090 --> 00:54:28.370
Um what is your favorite country for golf?
00:54:29.730 --> 00:54:30.930
Ah wow.
00:54:31.170 --> 00:54:35.330
Um well it it that there's only one answer to this.
00:54:35.810 --> 00:54:36.130
Okay.
00:54:36.610 --> 00:54:37.890
And it's Scotland.
00:54:38.050 --> 00:54:57.970
I mean, I I I I can't I can't I I've almost got to the point because um played in played in 20 countries now, um and played more international golf than I played golf in the US, uh, which which I'm trying to rec rectify that a little bit.
00:54:58.210 --> 00:55:08.850
Uh but it's it it's I don't know, it it's hard to I almost got at the point where I'm putting Scotland off in a on its own.
00:55:09.170 --> 00:55:10.370
It's own little yeah.
00:55:10.610 --> 00:55:13.970
Yeah, because because because people ask too, what about the golf course, right?
00:55:14.050 --> 00:55:16.930
And I was like, well, it's the old course.
00:55:17.010 --> 00:55:23.730
I mean, and you can you can talk about like, well, it's you know, whatever, whatever, whatever, right?
00:55:23.810 --> 00:55:27.090
I mean, and put it not at number one.
00:55:27.650 --> 00:55:27.970
Yeah.
00:55:28.290 --> 00:55:33.650
Okay, but but you know, you you can't dismiss the history, the town of St.
00:55:33.890 --> 00:55:39.570
Andrews, um, just the the whole vibe that you get when you're playing.
00:55:39.890 --> 00:55:43.090
Um I I anyway, so so so there's that.
00:55:43.250 --> 00:55:51.970
Um you know, pr probably the I mean, I mean, I I love Ireland as well.
00:55:52.130 --> 00:55:53.410
We've played a bunch there.
00:55:53.570 --> 00:55:59.890
Uh England's probably the the the one that people don't think about as much.
00:56:00.370 --> 00:56:00.530
Okay.
00:56:02.370 --> 00:56:04.050
But it's it's incredible.
00:56:04.210 --> 00:56:07.490
I mean, I the the courses uh are just phenomenal.
00:56:07.650 --> 00:56:14.930
I mean that there's there there's so many there's so many to go through and so many to so much to to go through.
00:56:15.090 --> 00:56:24.290
And you know we've we've done like almost 10 years in a row of going to three or four or five places, right?
00:56:24.450 --> 00:56:35.570
And and it it's and I've I I've tried to rank courses, uh which has given me a whole new appreciation for the actual people that do official rankings, right?
00:56:35.650 --> 00:56:37.330
I've just tried to rank them on my own, right?
00:56:37.410 --> 00:56:51.570
And and it's it's hard because you you go to these places and if you're if you're in the moment, right, you you just you get sucked into the the whole experience, and it's it's hard to it's hard to figure out.
00:56:51.650 --> 00:56:57.570
You you're basically trying to you know rank order your experiences, right?
00:56:57.810 --> 00:56:58.130
Right.
00:56:58.450 --> 00:57:04.210
And and and and sometimes that's you know, sometimes if you play well, well that's gonna rank higher, right?
00:57:04.290 --> 00:57:12.290
If you don't play as well, or if it you get rained on, like for for the entire round or whatever, that's gonna that's gonna change things, right?
00:57:12.370 --> 00:57:37.250
But but it's a uh uh yeah, I I'll I I'll be glad we we we can have a whole we can have a whole other pod just talking about travel and the experiences and it's been I've been very blessed uh to be able to do what we what I've done, you know, and and you know, it's I can't uh I yeah, it's sometimes it's hard to process it all.
00:57:37.330 --> 00:57:38.290
That that's the other part.
00:57:38.450 --> 00:57:56.690
Like like this whole year of well, the the we we went to Scotland here about a month ago, six weeks ago, and I haven't even started to figure out where some of those courses rank within my top 100 kind of like my own personal ranking, right?
00:57:56.770 --> 00:58:00.450
Because it's like it's like how do you how do you how do you do that, right?
00:58:00.610 --> 00:58:01.410
I mean right.
00:58:01.650 --> 00:58:07.570
I mean, and and anyway, it's uh these are these are good problems to have, I guess.
00:58:07.730 --> 00:58:08.610
Uh yeah, they are.
00:58:08.770 --> 00:58:11.890
Yeah, if I'm noodling over that, then then life's pretty good.
00:58:11.970 --> 00:58:14.850
So what's your favorite club in the bag right now?
00:58:15.010 --> 00:58:16.130
Uh putter.
00:58:16.850 --> 00:58:17.490
Putter.
00:58:17.730 --> 00:58:19.490
We just make it everything we look at?
00:58:19.730 --> 00:58:29.330
Well, it uh not necessarily, okay, but um but it it's most comfortable with my putter.
00:58:29.570 --> 00:58:40.130
I mean, I'm I'm fairly comfortable with my driver too, but but it's it's gotta be the putter, because I mean the the the putter's gonna make or break everything, right?
00:58:40.530 --> 00:58:41.890
Putter can fix a lot of things.
00:58:42.450 --> 00:58:53.970
Short game in general, but putting putting, especially if you can go through a round and not three putt, well then you're you're and you're putting in the fairway and you're not three putting, okay.
00:58:54.130 --> 00:58:58.850
Well, you're you're you're you're probably you're probably you're probably hanging in there, right?
00:58:58.930 --> 00:59:00.610
You're probably shooting a decent score.
00:59:00.770 --> 00:59:19.730
So and and putting's just I I've got a I've got a backyard uh you know short game area that I put in a couple years ago, and so I I I putt a lot, and I'm like, you know, there's no there's no reason not to be a consistent putter in my mind.
00:59:19.890 --> 00:59:23.250
Even if it's just putting on your carpet at home, there's just no reason.
00:59:23.330 --> 00:59:25.090
It's the easiest thing to do.
00:59:25.330 --> 00:59:34.130
Um, you know, you can there's so many different, you know, whether it's a blade or a mallet, uh the whole lab stuff.
00:59:34.210 --> 00:59:39.570
I mean, I'm I'm not into, but you know, different grips you can try, different stances.
00:59:39.890 --> 00:59:44.690
I mean, uh you there's no excuse not to be a consistent putter.
00:59:45.170 --> 00:59:46.930
Right, yeah, there's something out there for everybody.
00:59:47.010 --> 00:59:47.250
Yeah.
00:59:47.490 --> 00:59:49.490
Gary, this has been this has been a lot of fun.
00:59:49.570 --> 00:59:57.330
I loved hearing your background and and I'll again I want to have you on just talk about travel because that's something that's incredibly intriguing to me.
00:59:57.490 --> 01:00:01.490
Um I love going and seeing new places, and especially if I get to take my sticks.
01:00:01.650 --> 01:00:04.370
Um, but thanks again for taking time to come on and tell your story.
01:00:04.450 --> 01:00:05.010
This has been great.
01:00:05.170 --> 01:00:06.290
No, it's fantastic.
01:00:06.370 --> 01:00:07.490
I've I really enjoyed it.
01:00:07.570 --> 01:00:12.450
And uh thanks for having me and would look forward to seeing you at Sweeten sometime soon.
01:00:12.770 --> 01:00:13.570
Awesome, awesome.
01:00:13.730 --> 01:00:17.170
For Gary Mays, I'm Josh Decker, and this has been another episode of Off the Deck.
