Bored on Purpose with Ryan Schebek

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Hi, I'm Michele Mateus, and welcome to Noticing the Ordinary.
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This podcast is all about solo musings and honest conversations where we share about the things we so often miss in life.
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There's no homework, and there's no adding to your to-do list.
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Honestly, I'm just here to share some good company and something worth noticing.
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But a note before we dive in.
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I share openly and honestly here, and I'm not a therapist or a doctor.
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So if you're moving through something that you need some support with, I encourage you to reach out for professional help.
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And if you don't know where to turn to, I got you.
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I've listed some resources on my podcast homepage, so you can go check those out.
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All right.
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Now, let's get down to noticing something.
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Hi, everybody.
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I'm here today with my, little friend Cupcake over here, and my other friend Ryan.
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I don't know if you notice Cupcake back there, Ryan.
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I just did now.
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It's very cute.
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She's like my little mascot.
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We're very on brand.
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You know how they say, like, owners look like their pets?
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And we're very gray together., Everyone, excited to welcome Ryan today, and I shared on Instagram a funny little story about how Ryan and I connected, and it was through a mutual person that I connected with on Instagram.
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And as it turns out, I used to shoot weddings with Ryan's wife many moons ago.
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So, um, Vancouver is so small, isn't it?
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Welcome here today, Ryan, to Noticing the Ordinary.
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I am gonna read your bio because I could never memorize anything to save my life.
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So if you see me looking away, that's why.
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Ryan is a registered clinical counselor and the founder of Layers Counseling and Wellness.
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He also teaches counseling at Alder University, where he is passionate about mentoring and supporting the next generation of counselors, which is so amazing.
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We need great mentors in this world.
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Ryan's clinical interests include psychedelic integration and ketamine-assisted psychotherapy, which I would love to learn more about in another episode., As well as exploring the intersections of oppressive systems, mental health, and social justice.
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His approach to therapy is informed by a commitment to understanding the broader social systemic context that shape people's mental health and wellbeing.
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Ryan enjoys reading and collecting books, watching movies, and spending time with his Pomchi, Dolly.
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How cute is that?
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He's excited for the opportunity to be part of Noticing the Ordinary because of its approach and what it offers.
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Its non-prescriptive reminder to get curious and slowing down.
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Wow, you just, like, wrote a whole new thing for me and the show.
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Thanks.
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Which is something everyone needs, Ryan says, so I agree.
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Welcome here today with me, Ryan.
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I have a first question for you is, are you someone that tends to go about your day noticing all the things?
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Oh, good question.
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Yeah.
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I mean, I think noticing is something I wanna be doing more, definitely.
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Hum?
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I think I'm someone that can very easily not notice things, and so that's why I really liked this podcast and this idea that you have, and have been kinda thinking about it, um, because w- we need to be noticing more.
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I think, you know, our world kinda moves at a particular pace, and I'm You know, the stuff that I do, I get pretty stressed, and I've got a lot on my plate.
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So, uh, really, yeah, I, I think, I think just need, generally just needed to be noticing things more,
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Okay.
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life
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What does that, like, when you think about needing to be noticing things, like, what are you thinking about?
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It's like,"Ah, damn, I missed out on..." Like, for example, my son, of his generation, and he's also neurodivergent, he's always locked into a screen everywhere we go.
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And I'm like,"Hey, Maxwell, like, check that thing out," like, if we're in the car.
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And he's like,"What?
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What?" You know?
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Because he misses all the cool things'cause he's so locked in, and I think that happens to us a lot
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Yeah, yeah.
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You know, it, it, we talk a lot about this idea of, like, an at- attention economy, right?
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Like, there's a lot of stuff is designed to really grab our attention and, and, and keep our attention, and that's something we're often kind of pushing up against and something that we're kind of often kind of fighting against, is something like that.
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And, and so for me, kinda noticing is, is in a way, Well, it's, it's very mindful I think as well to be noticing something.
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it's also not, you know, really being distracted or having our attention pulled.
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There's a lot I think with noticing, I'm gonna start talking about what noticing means to me.
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Yeah, I love it.
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I love it.
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I, you j- you just go.
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Yeah.
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I'm loving it
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just gonna kinda go with it.
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Yeah, yeah.
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I mean, to me there's a sort of like, intentionality behind noticing, and I think that's a really important, distinction because we can be focused on things and stuff can grab our attention, and there isn't a lot of, control or intentionality behind that.
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You know, I think if you notice when you're, through social media or something, stuff is grabbing your attention and, and sometimes we even have a hard time pulling ourselves away from, from that, from screens.
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I can agree
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sort of intentionality.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Back online and, um So I think, I think noticing is reintroducing that intentionality.
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I am observing something and noticing what is coming up, whatever it is.
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You know, there's a, there's a kind of like a stepping back, not being kind of caught up in a, in a stream of, of constantly being pulled or pushed, or, or distracted by something, but really kind of taking a moment, to notice, you know, whatever is coming up.
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So there's a lot I think of intentionality behind it., It's, you know I kinda see it as pretty synonymous with, with mindfulness or sort of like a mindful approach to something'cause that is that sort of intentionality, that curiosity, that non-judgmental, piece that comes into, to it as well.
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So I see a lot of overlap between the, the two concepts of mindfulness and noticing.
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Mm-hmm.
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My mind is also going a mile a minute listening to you, which is very common for me.
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I'm neurodivergent, I'm autistic, and I'm ADHD.
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And, I keep thinking as you're talking, I'm like,"Okay, so I'm a person that notices all the things all the time," but more from a...
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I'm not necessarily in a mindful state, you know?
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Or maybe I am.
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I don't know.
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But I'm always like,"Ooh, squirrel, squirrel," like all the things.
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Before we had a child when we would travel, uh, I always had my camera.
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And I don't know if your wife is like this, but I tend to be the person that's walking out into traffic because I noticed something that I wanna photograph, and my husband would be like,"Whoa, whoa, whoa, you didn't even look." You know, I'm like that kid that's just like, running across the street.
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And so, yeah, it's very interesting about the intentionality piece.
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I find that for myself, and I think that's one of the reasons why I wanted to start this podcast is to, to explore, the different types of noticing that we do.
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For me, sometimes it is a distraction or daydreaming, and for sometimes it's very intentional or it goes deeper.
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Like, if I am in my garden and I see something, I'll pause there for a minute and stay with it, and then I start noticing even more, which becomes more intentional in that pause
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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I mean, it, it, it's interesting'cause like you said, it's, it's different types of noticing as well.
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Uhum.
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of describing it a particular way, and then you've kind of got your own particular way of, of, of what that comes up for you.
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But, but what I, what I'm starting to kind of piece together there is, is maybe it's about the feeling that comes with it,
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Hum
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right?
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Like, if, if you're feeling really distracted by different things, like, is that energizing for you?
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Are you exercising, you know, some, you know, d- does it feel like you're exercising curiosity?
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Does, does it...
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You know, how do you feel after?
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Because I
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Hum!
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that's an important distinction, too, with the different types of noticing because, you know, for me, you know, being distracted, kind of way that I'm describing, maybe push and pulled by, by screens or, or, different things that are designed to, to kind of grab our attention and, and, and not let go, there's a feeling after that you feel kind of drained.
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Like, you don't feel too great after,
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Yeah
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it's, it's...
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Whereas I think when you're...
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What you're talking about here is really interesting.
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It's like you're, you're...
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technically you're distracted by things, but there's a...
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I, I think the feeling is different.
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Like, just the way that you're describing it, it sounds like it's very, like, energizing for you and, and something that really feels aligned with, with kind of who you are as well.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, this is so interesting.
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I already love where this is going, and now I'm thinking about the feeling.
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So I, for example, one of my favorite things to do is take myself on an artist date.
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So I will just maybe grab my camera, maybe not, and I will go somewhere,, that I enjoy going by myself, which is the really important piece, right?
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Because I am a mom to a high support needs kiddo, and I am home a lot with him, and it can be very taxing on my nervous system.
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And so I love to intentionally go for a walk, often in the same areas, that I know because I know I want to stop and eat at my favorite place and go to my favorite record shop, and that brings me so much joy.
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And I tend to notice all of the things as I'm walking through like,"Oh, look at these stickers on, the telephone poles or the light and how it's hitting this particular concrete that day." And it-- so it is very intentional.
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Like, I haven't gone looking for something, but I've gone looking to just be by myself and be in a state of wonder intentionally
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Mm-hmm.
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Yeah.
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I, I think that's really im- important, you know, that, really kind of just sort of like, you know, beginning a mindfulness walk with that intentionality, but then just allowing whatever grabs your attention to grab your attention.
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To just kind of just sort of like free float your attention and kind of let it go wherever, wherever it wants to go, and then, and then really noticing when it, when it does go to, to a particular, uh, a particular place.
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Yeah
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And, yeah, and, and I think, like, this time of year as well is so great for that.
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Like, fall,
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I know
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leaves on the ground.
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Like, I just feel like, you know, there's so much more to notice, and if you do go for a walk, there's so much to kind of just...
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If you just let your attention kind of roam, and kind of take a step back, there's a lot to take in, in terms of sort of the beauty of just, like, the changing color of the leaves, new stuff on the ground.
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I love mushrooms.
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Bunch of mushrooms popping up these days.
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That's always a fun thing to
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Yeah, that's fun
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there's that, like, there's that one mushroom that's kind of got the, the, the bright red color with
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okay.
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Yeah.
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Okay.
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I never see those for real, but you're seeing those around?
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That's, like, so fun
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Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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They're popping up all over the place.
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Like the- well, in the neighborhood that I live in, there's, there's a bunch of those.
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So it's really great, like all of a sudden, uh, lots of different things to sort of notice when you, when you just sort of let your attention kind of wander.
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And, and I think, I think you start to notice things like that.
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Like maybe there are those mushrooms kind of you know, in, in, in your neighborhood, but it just takes us a moment to kind of, again, to, to try to, try to notice what's going on and, and not have a particular kind of focus for where we're looking or how we're looking or the, the walk that we're taking, but just noticing what comes up, get these little, little surprises sometimes.
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And then of course it helps if you're really into mushrooms and you're kind of looking for that sort of stuff too.
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Well, it's, you know, it's also making me think about, the sensory experiences, and I think we don't talk about that nearly enough.
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And I learned more about that, you know, when my son was going through his diagnosis and how all humans have a sensory profile.
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It's like, why don't we learn about this when we're younger?
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All of us.
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It would be so empowering to know.
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And when you were talking about the fall, I'm like, the other day I was walking, there was crunching sounds with all the leaves.
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It's a whole different sensory experience.
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And so me being who I am, just started to walk back and forth on a pile of leaves because I was so fascinated by the different sounds it was making.
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I think everyone should try that
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Yeah, yeah.
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No, yeah, t- yeah, really indulge and, and, and, and take it all in.
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That's, that's fantastic, yeah
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Yeah.
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So maybe you're gonna go for a walk later with your dog and crunch some leaves and look for some mushrooms
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I'm definitely gonna be noticing it now.
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Yeah, that's for sure.
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Yeah, yeah.
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And so when thinking about coming on here and wanting to share something that you have been noticing more lately, what is that thing?
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Yeah, for me, I mean, we're, we're already kind of getting into it, I think.
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You know, I really wanted to mention, just the change of the seasons, the different things, you know that I'm noticing there.
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I'm noticing a lot these days in terms of, well, behind me here is a brand-new office.
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I just moved into it, so I'm noticing tons of different things with this new space.
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the temperature of the room, the airflow, noticing the lighting, noticing kinda how you, how I feel in the space as I kinda get set up and, and acclimatized to it, and that's, that's very important, I think, also for, the therapy side of it, to really be, you know, noticing how the space, how people are, are kind of, interacting with it.
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You know, what are they feeling when they're sitting in the room?
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How is the lighting affecting our mood?
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And, and, you know, is this u- under-stimulating, over-stimulating?
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So I'm really, I think right now, really tuned into the kind of the physical space around me because it has such an impact on us.
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For example, this office has these really terrible overhead fluorescent lights
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I love those
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And immediately as soon as I stepped in, I was like,"Nope, these are coming off.
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We're bringing in these nice warm lamps.
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We're getting it all set up."'Cause that, yeah, you're, you know, you're right.
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Like we all have kind of a sensory profile.
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This stuff, you know, does, has a, has a big influence on us, but it's also very unique how we respond to it as well.
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So I'm really trying to like attune to the kinda space so that I can, really be aware of, of, of the different kind of profiles that there are and how it might be impacting impacting people, in a session when I'm working with them, when they're coming in.
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You know, is it an environment that feels safe?
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Do I feel comfortable in it as well?
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I mean, I think that's a big, uh, a, a big influence, you know, a- as I'm working in this space.
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Am I feeling comfortable?
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Is my nervous system regulated?
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we, there's this co-regulation that happens with each other.
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You know, if I'm calm, you're calm.
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If I start to get a little bit of stress, you're gonna pick up on that, and it's kinda, kinda go back and forth.
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So can I create an environment where I'm also feeling really comfortable and really like the space and, and then kinda use that in a session with the client to kinda help co-regulate and making sure that they're, they're feeling comfortable?
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So a ton of stuff in the office space itself, noticing a lot of gratitude as well.
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Setting this, this office up and, You know, setting up layers, has been quite a team effort, and so there's been a lot of help involved, and I think lately I've just been really, really connecting with the gratitude piece to it as well.
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Like, you-- sometimes when you go into a business, you think,"Okay, it's my business.
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I have to do everything.
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I, I feel weird about asking for help.
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Can I ask for help?
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What comes up when I ask for help?" And so lately I've just been like, you know what?
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I really gotta just connect with the gratitude piece of it.
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Like, if someone is willing to, to help and, and, and offer that, that's a real gift, and I really wanna kinda connect with that and not bring all my stuff kinda coming up about, about guilt and do I need to be doing everything?
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And maybe that's sort of the, the productivity, capitalism kinda piece kinda coming in.
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You know, do I have to like earn it?
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And what does that look like?
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So yeah, really connecting with a lot of, a lot of gratitude as well.
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That's amazing, and thank you for being so intentional and putting so much care into what you're setting up in your practice, and it's music to my neurodivergent ears and advocate for neurodivergent children because it's something that we're not often talking about or thinking about and, and often these little things that we notice are really easy little shifts that we can make to support more humans to feel safe in spaces.
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You know, I haven't really...
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That whole concept of a safe space really pisses me off because, because I don't even know what that means.
00:15:49.881 --> 00:15:50.703
Safe for who?
00:15:51.101 --> 00:15:52.543
And on whose terms?
00:15:52.601 --> 00:15:53.687
And what does that...
00:15:53.702 --> 00:15:54.062
You know.
00:15:54.062 --> 00:16:08.602
And I d- I don't think we're thinking about that enough, although people are using that term all the time, and as someone who's learned so much about the neurodivergent experience, it's definitely made me think about that term in a very different way.
00:16:08.620 --> 00:16:13.683
So I really appreciate when I hear that people are being so intentional with space design.
00:16:13.695 --> 00:16:17.990
I think it's, it's really, really important, so thank you for that.
00:16:18.764 --> 00:16:19.490
Thank you for that.
00:16:19.785 --> 00:16:24.234
And, and I really connect with just what you were saying there about, like, this idea of a safe space.
00:16:24.234 --> 00:16:32.009
And, and I think when you have Sandy on the podcast as well, she'll have some very, very insightful things to, to say about creating, like, a safe space.
00:16:32.130 --> 00:16:37.852
Because yeah, there-- I think, you know, there, there's such emphasis on we need to create, create a safe space, but what, what does that look like?
00:16:38.318 --> 00:16:39.583
And so there's a lot of lip service.
00:16:39.583 --> 00:16:45.645
There's a lot of people saying,"Well, this is a safe space." And it's like, well, you, you-- safety is not something that you just say it's there.
00:16:45.860 --> 00:16:48.456
It's something you have to kind of, you know, kind of create with somebody.
00:16:48.749 --> 00:16:55.159
And so that's a-- that requires, you know, a little bit of a dialogue, a little bit of you checking in with someone, and it's, and it's gonna be different for everyone.
00:16:55.159 --> 00:17:00.528
So I think safety is really kind of like an ongoing kind of process that you kind of co-create with someone.
00:17:00.539 --> 00:17:08.088
And also knowing, I think what's really, really important, nothing can be 100% safe, and that's actually, something that's really important to think about,
00:17:08.566 --> 00:17:09.148
I agree
00:17:09.175 --> 00:17:21.318
kind of sit with, you know, the world, unfortunately, is not 100% safe, and we need to be able to, respond to that and be able to kind of talk about that in-- when, when, you know, I'm kind of...
00:17:21.318 --> 00:17:26.303
Again, I'm gonna talk a lot about kind of the, the therapy context,'cause that's just what's on, on my mind right now.
00:17:26.304 --> 00:17:36.396
But, you know, in, in the therapy context, you know, if you're, if you're not feeling safe, being able to kind of talk about that and be able to sit through that and, and, and tolerate or acknowledge, you know, that sort of piece as well.
00:17:36.413 --> 00:17:48.986
Because I think sometimes we, we can kind of create, like, a little bit of a, pitfall when it comes to safety in thinking that everything has to be, has to be safe all the time for us.
00:17:48.987 --> 00:18:01.883
It puts a lot of, then a lot of pressure on ourselves if we're telling ourselves,"I need to be safe all the time." It's a much different than t-to say,"Well, I can only do so much to create safety, and then some-sometimes I might feel unsafe, and, and that's okay, too." Right?
00:18:02.111 --> 00:18:09.336
And then with a counselor, sometimes, counselors, really, try to strive for 100% safety when that's not the case either.
00:18:09.364 --> 00:18:18.614
And then all of a sudden, the, the focus of the work goes on creating this sort of abstract concept of, of safety, striving for this safety that we can never really reach.
00:18:18.856 --> 00:18:21.490
And all of the energy goes into that, and we start to miss things.
00:18:21.935 --> 00:18:30.298
We start to miss wonderful moments where we can learn from, from feeling unsafe or share with our therapist,"Hey, I, I'm not feeling safe right now.
00:18:30.298 --> 00:18:32.489
Let's, let's kind of talk about that and kind of unpack it."
00:18:34.192 --> 00:18:46.721
I love all of this, and this is totally not on the list of thoughts that we were gonna explore, but I love this because I think that, you know, I, I, I'm a photographer, and I, I hear that term being thrown around so much, right?
00:18:47.061 --> 00:18:50.167
"I create a safe space in my studio." And I'm like, what does that even mean?
00:18:50.511 --> 00:18:51.089
uhum
00:18:51.556 --> 00:19:00.101
I like to reframe it, and a friend told me this, and I cannot remember who is the originator of this phrase, but a brave space.
00:19:00.101 --> 00:19:03.127
Like, how can we enter a space that can be...
00:19:03.144 --> 00:19:14.074
allow us to be brave, which also means saying,"Hey, I'm not feeling that safe right now." Um, so I'll have to dig that out because there's articles on that, on brave spaces, and I find it really...
00:19:14.472 --> 00:19:23.365
it's a really interesting shift into, these, these spaces that we enter and that we try and cultivate and create that we wanna invite people in, right?
00:19:23.371 --> 00:19:26.227
To have a therapy session.
00:19:26.260 --> 00:19:29.577
And honestly, sometimes a photo shoot is exactly like a therapy session,
00:19:30.431 --> 00:19:31.192
No, totally.
00:19:31.193 --> 00:19:34.123
It's a, it's a very vulnerable, kind of place to be in.
00:19:34.124 --> 00:19:48.203
And, and I, I see it through, through, you know, my wife Cat doing her work, you know, when, when she's, when she's doing photography, creating that safety as well, with her work,'cause that's so important because again, like yeah, I mean, you want, you want someone to, to feel like themselves.
00:19:48.261 --> 00:19:56.797
And, and then I, I know your, your, your photography, you know, from, from what I've seen, it's very like trying to really bring forth like the individual, like really let them feel,
00:19:57.114 --> 00:19:57.513
Uhum.
00:19:57.881 --> 00:20:01.836
to express themselves, and I think that comes from a photographer that really makes you feel safe.
00:20:02.019 --> 00:20:02.729
Oh, thanks.
00:20:02.730 --> 00:20:03.636
I appreciate it.
00:20:04.031 --> 00:20:10.609
I wanna explore this concept of boredom because you shared that that's a topic that you're, you're interested in.
00:20:10.914 --> 00:20:16.962
So I'd love to hear a little bit about that and what you think about boredom, and yeah.
00:20:17.163 --> 00:20:17.488
What...
00:20:17.666 --> 00:20:21.090
Let's, let's explore that'cause I think it's a very fascinating topic
00:20:22.695 --> 00:20:23.415
Yeah, definitely.
00:20:23.416 --> 00:20:26.968
This is a very interesting topic, and I can, I can say a lot of different things about this.
00:20:26.970 --> 00:20:29.906
And I know we've already kinda touched on so many different topics.
00:20:29.906 --> 00:20:31.321
We can go in so many different directions.
00:20:31.321 --> 00:20:32.450
So also let me know if I'm
00:20:32.480 --> 00:20:32.938
Yeah.
00:20:33.009 --> 00:20:33.410
off from
00:20:33.461 --> 00:20:34.247
No, that's okay.
00:20:34.251 --> 00:20:34.926
No, it's great
00:20:36.057 --> 00:20:38.618
yeah, so yeah, I can talk a little bit about, about boredom.
00:20:38.625 --> 00:20:44.050
Boredom's really interesting to me, and, and I think it ties into a lot of what we've been talking about with noticing.
00:20:44.051 --> 00:20:47.152
And actually, now that I think about it, it kinda ties into the safety piece, right?
00:20:47.993 --> 00:20:56.502
Um, because, you know, f- boredom, for me is, is really something that, it, it, it's, it's for a lot of people a negative state to be in.
00:20:56.506 --> 00:20:58.382
Like, it's a neg-- we wanna get rid of boredom.
00:20:58.384 --> 00:21:00.637
As soon as we're in it, it's like,"This doesn't feel great.
00:21:00.683 --> 00:21:01.623
I wanna get out of this.
00:21:01.624 --> 00:21:07.063
How do I do something different?" there's lots of things at our disposal to eliminate that feeling of boredom.
00:21:07.075 --> 00:21:10.163
We're, we're too good, I think, at, at eliminating boredom.
00:21:11.178 --> 00:21:19.330
so I think there's something really valuable in being able to, notice when we're feeling bored or, or notice the environment we're in when we're feeling boredom.
00:21:19.682 --> 00:21:24.720
And being able to sit with it, I think, is really important, and that's a bit of a skill that I think we're losing.
00:21:24.998 --> 00:21:30.982
And I, and I see that having a direct impact on a lot of our, mental wellness, is losing that ability to be bored.
00:21:31.298 --> 00:21:37.780
And it's kind of like a paradoxical thing where it's like, well, if I'm, if I'm getting rid of a negative feeling, shouldn't I be feeling better, right?
00:21:37.813 --> 00:21:49.586
And, and I think there's a lot of value in actually kind of approaching it differently no, we need to sit through, the boredom, boredom is a very important, feature of our, of our consciousness, of our mental wellness.
00:21:49.920 --> 00:21:57.732
Boredom is a place where really the mind can actually finally rest, you know, and not be pushed and pulled by different things in our day.
00:21:58.019 --> 00:22:02.655
And then from that rest, I find a lot of really interesting things, come from that.
00:22:02.871 --> 00:22:03.171
Uhum.
00:22:03.227 --> 00:22:04.432
need to be really mindful.
00:22:04.432 --> 00:22:10.174
It takes a lot of mindfulness to, to be able to get into that space, and where do we go from there, right?
00:22:10.270 --> 00:22:11.664
How would you define boredom?
00:22:12.730 --> 00:22:13.278
Oh, yeah.
00:22:13.339 --> 00:22:18.604
Um, boredom is, is really, know, not having your mind grabbed by anything,
00:22:19.090 --> 00:22:19.666
Ok
00:22:20.010 --> 00:22:22.993
Having no distraction and, and really nothing to do.
00:22:24.439 --> 00:22:28.732
And then, and then it, it also is accompanied with that sort of like negative feeling, like I wanna kinda...
00:22:28.798 --> 00:22:30.209
I wanna get rid of this feeling.
00:22:30.209 --> 00:22:31.267
This doesn't feel great.
00:22:31.270 --> 00:22:34.281
So there is sort of like a feeling that kinda comes with it as well.
00:22:35.551 --> 00:22:53.446
so really it's just whenever we don't, we're, we're not being pushed or pulled by something, we don't have a distraction going on, and we can just finally kinda let our, our minds kinda wander a little bit, and that, and that's kind of uncomfortable in the same way that, you know, for example, if you try to go for a walk, and you say,"You know what?
00:22:53.477 --> 00:22:54.982
I'm not gonna have a destination.
00:22:54.983 --> 00:23:00.271
I'm just gonna, I'm just gonna wander." That's like really difficult, I think, for, for a lot of people.
00:23:00.271 --> 00:23:01.421
There needs to be a goal.
00:23:01.422 --> 00:23:06.846
We need to be like,"Well, I'll walk to the grocery store, and I'll pick up some groceries, and that'll be my walk," or I run an errand.
00:23:07.434 --> 00:23:19.577
So that same feeling of like can I go for a walk with no destination in mind, with no goal and just kinda see where, where things go and not be distracted by anything, that's kinda similar to, to this, this feeling of boredom.
00:23:19.579 --> 00:23:22.849
Can I just sort of let my mind wander in the same sorta way?
00:23:22.851 --> 00:23:25.566
And, and it's a really difficult space for a lot of people.
00:23:25.808 --> 00:23:26.381
When we, when we...
00:23:26.401 --> 00:23:28.320
when you go for a walk, you wanna put in headphones.
00:23:28.320 --> 00:23:29.912
You wanna listen to, to a podcast.
00:23:29.920 --> 00:23:30.998
You wanna listen to some music.
00:23:30.999 --> 00:23:31.865
You need that sort of like...
00:23:32.303 --> 00:23:32.602
I, I...
00:23:32.608 --> 00:23:46.720
it's difficult for a lot of us to be finally like alone with, with ourselves, and I think that's what boredom is, is really just being alone with yourself and really just kind of connecting and, and not have anything kinda mediating that, that connection.
00:23:46.923 --> 00:23:48.663
Well, that sounds like bliss to me though.
00:23:49.669 --> 00:23:53.630
Uh-huh.
00:23:53.912 --> 00:24:00.809
too, like, about boredom and the discomfort that comes with it.
00:24:01.883 --> 00:24:09.213
And I wonder, of course, my brain instantly goes to late stage capitalism, when we, we feel like we're always supposed to be being productive.
00:24:09.230 --> 00:24:20.260
You know, when you're talking about,"Well, if I'm gonna go for a walk, I'm gonna go to the store, and I'm gonna pick this thing up, or I'm gonna do this thing, and then I'm gonna come back," and it's, like, completed the circle of, like, productivity.
00:24:21.269 --> 00:24:21.536
You know?
00:24:21.536 --> 00:24:28.765
That we ha- we have been so brainwashed to think that that's what, how our lives should function, right?
00:24:28.813 --> 00:24:33.387
Like, we should always be productive and doing a thing.
00:24:33.828 --> 00:24:35.641
But boredom is like,"Hmm-
00:24:37.544 --> 00:24:37.960
Mm-hmm.
00:24:38.815 --> 00:24:39.844
And yeah, it's so,
00:24:39.951 --> 00:24:40.301
no...
00:24:40.307 --> 00:24:40.573
Yeah
00:24:40.611 --> 00:24:42.404
so curious how that's, uh, why...
00:24:42.760 --> 00:24:48.541
Yeah, I'd love to explore a little bit more, like why is that so uncomfortable for people?
00:24:49.828 --> 00:24:50.692
Yeah, yeah.
00:24:51.577 --> 00:24:55.957
I, I, I think, I think for many different reasons that the capitalism piece you kind of mentioned kind of ties in.
00:24:56.124 --> 00:24:59.173
We just don't have practice a lot of experience.
00:24:59.248 --> 00:25:03.608
So, so something that's unfamiliar is, is usually treated with.
00:25:03.653 --> 00:25:10.549
you know, when we're feeling stressed out, when we're feeling low, when we feel kind of overwhelmed, we don't wanna do things that are unfamiliar.
00:25:10.625 --> 00:25:15.193
And so for a lot of us, we seek familiarity, and so being distracted is very familiar.
00:25:15.519 --> 00:25:23.134
And so I think that's, that's one aspect of it, why boredom is uncomfortable, is just the fact that it's an unfamiliar space to be in.
00:25:23.228 --> 00:25:27.718
We, we often aren't bored, and that's why I think we need to kind of push past some of that.
00:25:28.138 --> 00:25:32.173
In the same way that I think also another piece to it is just thinking about kind of capitalism as well.
00:25:32.174 --> 00:25:34.429
You can't really commodify, boredom.
00:25:34.900 --> 00:25:35.746
You know, it's not...
00:25:35.771 --> 00:25:40.078
You know, boredom i- suggests a state in which you're actually not consuming anything.
00:25:40.405 --> 00:25:41.369
You're not producing.
00:25:41.380 --> 00:25:42.204
You're not buying.
00:25:42.213 --> 00:25:43.006
You're not selling.
00:25:43.346 --> 00:25:44.122
You're just bored.
00:25:44.122 --> 00:25:44.915
You're with yourself.
00:25:44.916 --> 00:25:47.876
It's like, you know, you know, meditation a lot of the times.
00:25:47.876 --> 00:25:50.464
You know, we can, you know, commodify meditation.
00:25:50.515 --> 00:25:52.653
But really at the heart of it, you can't really commodify that.
00:25:52.910 --> 00:26:00.653
Kind of what you said there, that when I'm connected with myself and I'm feeling that bliss, you know, that's not something you can kind of like bottle and sell to someone.
00:26:00.653 --> 00:26:01.834
It's something we all have.
00:26:02.102 --> 00:26:12.519
And so the system we live in is kind of always trying to tell us that,"Oh, no, in order for you to have that bliss, you need to buy this thing," or,"Maybe you don't have enough of this thing," right?
00:26:12.782 --> 00:26:13.202
Uhum.
00:26:13.303 --> 00:26:17.402
The s- the system's never gonna tell you,"Oh, actually, you have everything you need to be happy." You know?
00:26:17.457 --> 00:26:18.511
Like, that's not very
00:26:18.732 --> 00:26:20.434
Well, exactly, right?
00:26:20.434 --> 00:26:31.196
I mean, even, like, when you said you can't commodify boredom, I'm like, exactly, because you can buy this coloring book, and you can get you know, you c- there are so many things that you can get.
00:26:31.196 --> 00:26:33.579
You know, maybe it's, I don't know.
00:26:33.828 --> 00:26:37.248
I love actually doing word searches, but you know, the- there's all these things.
00:26:37.278 --> 00:26:38.750
There's these things that are...
00:26:39.015 --> 00:26:40.025
Well, you...
00:26:40.073 --> 00:26:43.354
The cure to boredom, I, I feel like I've heard that term before too.
00:26:43.354 --> 00:26:48.046
The cure to boredom is this, I don't know what it is, some sort of thing, right?
00:26:48.046 --> 00:26:48.824
There's always like...
00:26:49.263 --> 00:26:50.845
But why do we need to cure boredom?
00:26:51.974 --> 00:26:52.422
Yes,
00:26:52.809 --> 00:26:54.566
So people are trying to commodify it.
00:26:54.566 --> 00:26:56.333
They're like,"Ooh, people are bored.
00:26:56.334 --> 00:27:02.335
They are uncomfortable." And so there's, like, this whole capitalist agenda around it
00:27:03.474 --> 00:27:03.903
Mm-hmm.
00:27:03.996 --> 00:27:04.432
Mm-hmm.
00:27:04.730 --> 00:27:05.028
Yeah.
00:27:05.740 --> 00:27:16.441
And, and, and, you know, we really need to be able to, you know, become bored as well, um, you know, I, I think to, to, to connect with ourselves too, right?
00:27:16.539 --> 00:27:16.906
yeah
00:27:17.878 --> 00:27:26.224
you know, like you can't, you know, for example, I need to be bored sometimes to be able to ask myself a question of what is it that I need right now?
00:27:26.384 --> 00:27:35.727
I can't ask that question, what is it that I need right now, if I'm being distracted by things or if I'm, if I'm not allowing my kind of, attention to wander, right?
00:27:36.519 --> 00:27:42.118
so we really, I think, kind of block a relationship with ourselves if we're constantly busy and doing things.
00:27:42.156 --> 00:27:45.488
And when we're bored, we can finally kind of sit down and go,"Okay, what's going on with me?
00:27:45.488 --> 00:27:46.387
Let me check in with me.
00:27:46.388 --> 00:27:47.463
What is it that I wanna do?
00:27:47.463 --> 00:27:55.434
What's going on?" And then kind of finally engaging in that process is really uncomfortable at first, but then it leads to that, to an answer to that question.
00:27:55.434 --> 00:27:58.457
Then you can actually understand, okay, this is what I do need right now.
00:27:58.457 --> 00:28:03.218
I, I, I need to cry, or I need to have some, some time alone, or I need to reach out to a friend.
00:28:03.530 --> 00:28:20.229
It's sometimes hard to access that space of knowing what I need un-unless I am bored and kinda, kinda connect with myself., And so you can go in that direction with it, and you can also go this other interesting direction too, where I, where I feel boredom is also, sort of a foundation of, of, of creativity.
00:28:20.491 --> 00:28:20.501
Uhum!
00:28:20.653 --> 00:28:23.991
A lot of creative ideas come from when we're feeling really bored.
00:28:23.994 --> 00:28:38.779
I don't know if you've ever had the experience where, you were just kind of bored one day, and then you kinda picked up a new hobby, or you picked up a new, art modality, and, and you really got into it because you needed to have been bored first or, or maybe had a really interesting idea kinda pop into your mind.
00:28:38.779 --> 00:28:42.750
I think a lot of my creative ideas come from, from feeling bored.
00:28:42.751 --> 00:28:44.143
I, I, I go for a walk.
00:28:44.147 --> 00:28:45.269
I let my mind wander.
00:28:45.530 --> 00:28:46.746
I'm not distracted.
00:28:46.924 --> 00:29:07.625
I sit in that kind of uncomfortable feeling, and all of a sudden, I notice something kinda shifts, and I'm, I'm kinda connected with myself and I'm listening again, and, and then maybe a creative idea kinda pops up or a solution to a problem I was thinking about or, or a-an unmet need that I didn't actually reali- realize was there the whole time, and it was just kind of, in there in the, in the, in the background kind of floating around.
00:29:07.895 --> 00:29:23.646
Well, I love this connection to creativity, and what's coming up for me is, I just sent a message to my friend yesterday about this because I personally am in a bit of a stage of exploration and transition as an artist.
00:29:24.135 --> 00:29:33.112
And, I've been trying to just spend more time not researching on a screen, which is so quick to...
00:29:33.147 --> 00:29:34.011
And it's great, right?
00:29:34.013 --> 00:29:35.476
There's all these things at our fingertips.
00:29:35.476 --> 00:29:40.502
So I have some ideas that I wanna research around some photo projects that I wanna create.
00:29:40.878 --> 00:29:42.257
And so there is research involved.
00:29:42.311 --> 00:29:50.462
I could go to the library, which is hard sometimes with my kiddo who really struggles to leave our home.
00:29:50.567 --> 00:29:54.184
So I'm often, you know, here, a bit landlocked.
00:29:54.652 --> 00:30:02.423
And so I just try and just take a notebook and sit at the chair behind me and get some ideas out.
00:30:02.753 --> 00:30:10.146
And sometimes I just sit there because I don't really know enough about a particular topic, so I do know I need to research it, so I'll just write that down.
00:30:10.146 --> 00:30:16.395
Okay, research this thing a little bit more later, you know, either at a library or, online.
00:30:16.645 --> 00:30:23.534
But I'm just trying to sit there, and I'm not one who naturally doodle, but I'm trying to doodle or just see what happens.
00:30:23.534 --> 00:30:46.015
I might just sit there with my notebook and nothing comes out, but I am literally putting myself into that state, not necessarily of boredom, but just cleansing a little bit of I have all these thoughts, and there is sometimes it's hard to get them out, and I think that we think we need to go searching for answers versus just seeing what might trickle out of us.
00:30:47.077 --> 00:30:53.791
So it's not the same as boredom, but that is often how I'm, I'm noticing for me more how I'm, I'm connecting with my creativity.
00:30:54.184 --> 00:31:00.467
And another thing I start doing is I'm like,"Oh my gosh, I have all these books I haven't picked out in so long." I have so many art books.
00:31:00.769 --> 00:31:01.439
I went to art school.
00:31:01.448 --> 00:31:03.832
Like, I have so many art books, and I, I, I kept a lot of them.
00:31:03.833 --> 00:31:07.758
And so sometimes I just grab one of those, and I flip through the pages.
00:31:08.028 --> 00:31:08.987
I'm not reading.
00:31:09.010 --> 00:31:09.729
I'm not...
00:31:09.790 --> 00:31:10.772
I'm just flipping.
00:31:10.785 --> 00:31:12.968
I'm just being with that in the moment.
00:31:13.696 --> 00:31:14.621
And guess what?
00:31:14.773 --> 00:31:23.660
Yes, new ideas are popping up, and I'm not going to that resource to be like,"Must find new idea." You know?
00:31:23.662 --> 00:31:26.137
I'm just going there to see, I don't know, to be curious
00:31:27.540 --> 00:31:27.951
Yes.
00:31:27.980 --> 00:31:28.347
Yeah.
00:31:28.637 --> 00:31:44.057
And that, and that's where a lot of really great things kind of spring up from, whether that is, you know, I think for a lot of people, boredom would be in- floating around there in that process, but d- not necessarily, and it, it sounds like when you're kind of describing it, it's just something you just sort of, you know, can do, and a lot of great stuff comes from it.
00:31:44.097 --> 00:31:48.737
And, for me, though, there is that sort of initial boredom, you know, kind of wall I have to get
00:31:49.157 --> 00:31:49.544
Ja
00:31:49.634 --> 00:32:04.746
kind of access that space, and, I know that can be difficult for a lot of people and, and some people not so mu- Like, again, if you're someone who's really into mindfulness and love meditation and love the sort of conversations that we're, we're having, this, this might not even be something you really consider or, or struggle with.
00:32:05.228 --> 00:32:14.222
But I would just agree kind of the, the same for me, like, if I'm You know, when I'm, when I'm teaching, I'll sometimes be doing a, a lecture prep, and I'll be thinking like,"Okay, what am I gonna talk about?
00:32:14.230 --> 00:32:28.096
How am I gonna Okay, I need to talk for an hour here and then do this activity, and depending on how the time goes." And I can get really bogged down, and then I look at my bookshelf and go like,"Okay, well, I need to read all of these books to prepare for tomorrow's lecture." And, and then I kind of have to kind of take a step back and go like,"You know what?
00:32:28.096 --> 00:32:43.647
I'm just gonna go for a walk and just let my mind wander and then see what happens." And then that to me just becomes a much more, easier, more congruent way of, of planning a lecture'cause I'll go for a walk, and I'll kind of go like,"Oh, you forgot about this thing you could talk about," or,"This is something you're really passionate about.
00:32:43.665 --> 00:32:53.624
Haven't you thought of that yet?" And so the lecture kind of then starts to plan itself when I'm able to kind of, in a similar way that I think that you're describing, just sort of like go and just sit and see what kind of comes up.
00:32:53.625 --> 00:33:00.114
And, and, and there's that expectation too, like you're, you're saying like, you know, you, you, you'll go to like write some things down with no expectation.
00:33:00.116 --> 00:33:01.153
Maybe I write something down.
00:33:01.153 --> 00:33:01.930
Maybe I don't.
00:33:02.260 --> 00:33:05.769
But it's so Isn't it so interesting that that's where a lot of really great stuff comes
00:33:05.826 --> 00:33:05.836
Uhum!
00:33:06.308 --> 00:33:12.295
when we just sort of like put aside the expectations and just go like,"All right, I'm just gonna kind of see what kind of comes to surface"?
00:33:12.501 --> 00:33:16.181
And there's usually really great stuff, which is kind of frustrating when you think about it.
00:33:16.182 --> 00:33:27.657
It's like,"Okay, why do my great ideas come up when I, when I paradoxically like am not worried about it anymore?" But when I'm really worried about an idea or trying to create something, that's when it all of a sudden becomes blocked.
00:33:27.657 --> 00:33:29.520
It's such an interesting little kind of paradox
00:33:29.747 --> 00:33:30.269
Well, it is.
00:33:30.269 --> 00:33:31.111
And you know, it's...
00:33:31.595 --> 00:33:51.748
When I started this podcast, I wanted to ensure that it didn't feel prescriptive and that we weren't saying,"Go out and notice some..." Like, we're not adding to someone's to-do list, because I think noticing happens in so many different ways, as we said at the beginning, and it doesn't have to be like,"I am now going to go and notice something," right?
00:33:51.748 --> 00:33:59.559
But I think there's an openness that we start as we stop being so, pulled in by the distractions.
00:33:59.916 --> 00:34:00.965
Uhum
00:34:01.701 --> 00:34:03.407
and actually, what was that term that you used?
00:34:03.424 --> 00:34:05.877
And I, I hadn't heard it before, to be honest.
00:34:05.906 --> 00:34:08.896
It was the, was it the distraction economy?
00:34:08.900 --> 00:34:09.836
No, there was something else.
00:34:09.840 --> 00:34:10.478
There was
00:34:10.858 --> 00:34:13.000
Oh, the, uh, attention economy.
00:34:13.025 --> 00:34:13.706
economy.
00:34:13.920 --> 00:34:15.327
So I did, did look that up.
00:34:15.327 --> 00:34:17.378
Can you just share a little bit about that?
00:34:17.380 --> 00:34:19.876
For those that may not know about that
00:34:21.563 --> 00:34:21.601
Mm-hmm.
00:34:21.936 --> 00:34:22.521
Yeah, of course.
00:34:22.521 --> 00:34:29.246
So that's this idea that,, there's a lot of, money to be made from capturing, an audience's attention.
00:34:29.652 --> 00:34:35.222
Because if you can confirm that you've grabbed someone's attention, you can confirm that they're looking at advertising,
00:34:35.563 --> 00:34:36.284
Oh,
00:34:37.092 --> 00:34:37.387
So
00:34:37.610 --> 00:34:38.231
gross
00:34:38.431 --> 00:34:39.224
off of that.
00:34:39.342 --> 00:34:46.030
Yeah, so, so there's so much involved in our world that's, like, trying to grab our attention and hold it so we can look at ads, you know.
00:34:46.315 --> 00:34:51.481
Grab, our attention, watch a, a particular video, and then sort of the ads kinda come in.
00:34:51.809 --> 00:34:53.443
And, and there's a lot of money to be made there.
00:34:53.445 --> 00:35:03.438
So when we're-- when our attention is, is free-floating, when it's not grabbed by something, it becomes, unable to confirm if we're actually-- the audience is actually looking at any kind of advertising.
00:35:04.208 --> 00:35:05.550
and so there's no money to be made there.
00:35:05.550 --> 00:35:06.876
So that's why I kinda say, like, boredom
00:35:06.891 --> 00:35:07.231
Uhum.
00:35:07.317 --> 00:35:10.440
like, commodified because you're just sort of allowing your attention to kinda wander.
00:35:10.442 --> 00:35:12.829
Nothing's really, really grabbing it there.
00:35:13.190 --> 00:35:14.898
Okay, that makes so much sense.
00:35:14.929 --> 00:35:30.463
And yeah, what I- what's coming up for me is this idea of when we're so in, like, e- entrenched in that, kind of, those kind of spaces that are always trying to steal our attention, I don't feel that we...
00:35:30.530 --> 00:35:33.867
I mean, yes, we can notice things that come up, discomfort, or you're like...
00:35:34.219 --> 00:35:35.360
I know I do.
00:35:36.197 --> 00:35:44.972
The kinds of things I see online don't tend to be the happy things,'cause those are the things I'm interested in, you know, social justice, human rights, that kind of stuff.
00:35:45.289 --> 00:35:49.271
And yes, I notice a lot of discomfort coming up, and rage, a lot of rage
00:35:49.284 --> 00:35:49.525
Uhum,
00:35:49.773 --> 00:35:50.309
with that.
00:35:50.465 --> 00:35:50.565
Yeah
00:35:50.628 --> 00:36:03.487
But this sense of wonderment that I always am so curious to explore, and also in a non-ableist way, because, you know, I also wanna acknowledge not everybody can get out of their house and go for a walk.
00:36:03.583 --> 00:36:06.177
You know, that's an assumption coming from an...
00:36:06.286 --> 00:36:10.246
Well, I actually live in a disabled body, and I can't actually go for long walks anymore.
00:36:10.246 --> 00:36:28.893
But, you know, so this concept of, like, when we detach from everything that's trying to take our attention, and we just sit or lie down or whatever is available to us in our bodies, that's, I think, sometimes where these little pockets of wonderment might come up
00:36:30.148 --> 00:36:30.768
Yeah, definitely.
00:36:31.047 --> 00:36:32.396
And, and you can't prescribe that.
00:36:32.396 --> 00:36:36.251
I really like your, your approach there, this idea of, of, of non-prescriptive,
00:36:36.443 --> 00:36:36.862
Uhum.
00:36:36.945 --> 00:36:37.447
so important.
00:36:37.458 --> 00:36:43.311
Because as soon as something's prescribed, then we have that sort of paradox of like, well, now you're not being kind of mindful about it.
00:36:43.311 --> 00:36:48.297
If, if you're kind of, you know, sitting there going like,"Oh, uh, I really wanna do mindfulness.
00:36:48.356 --> 00:36:50.153
I can't wait until the mindfulness starts.
00:36:50.155 --> 00:36:54.688
I really need to get so many hours of mindfulness done," then it kind of blocks you from, from, from doing it.
00:36:55.155 --> 00:37:04.217
And, I just wanna flag something else with, the non-prescriptive approach too as it kind of pertains to, to therapy, and any kind of therapists listening, I, I really wanna kind of flag this piece.
00:37:04.588 --> 00:37:12.135
We can, we can do a lot of harm by prescribing things for exactly what you just mentioned there about everyone's ability is different, right?
00:37:12.190 --> 00:37:18.222
When we prescribe something, we're assuming a certain level of ability, often based on our own understanding of our ability, right?
00:37:18.467 --> 00:37:21.400
And so there's some real blind spots there, so we have to be very careful.
00:37:21.880 --> 00:37:31.175
And then there's another pitfall too with prescribing this sort of stuff is, a lot of the times we have too much stuff that we need to do.
00:37:31.177 --> 00:37:32.610
Our plate's already kind of full.
00:37:32.851 --> 00:37:38.735
So if I as a therapist come along and say,"You need to add this to your plate, and you need to be doing that," there's a bit of a power dynamic.
00:37:38.744 --> 00:37:39.896
People kind of go,"Okay.
00:37:39.898 --> 00:37:42.619
Well, if my therapist is saying it, then I should really be doing it.
00:37:42.630 --> 00:37:43.635
Why can't I do it?
00:37:43.643 --> 00:37:45.030
Why is this so hard for me?
00:37:45.356 --> 00:37:46.577
I guess I'm just a failure.
00:37:46.577 --> 00:37:53.103
I'm not a very good client." And it just goes in this really kind of terrible direction, when we prescribe things, right?
00:37:53.278 --> 00:38:00.289
Instead of saying like, I'm exercising a little bit more curiosity or kind of taking this kind of what you're describing, a non- non-prescriptive approach.
00:38:00.289 --> 00:38:01.753
I think that's just so important.
00:38:01.987 --> 00:38:05.416
It kind of prevents all of these different blind spots when it comes to ability.
00:38:05.748 --> 00:38:12.949
It, it prevents these ruptures, and it prevents really, you know, cl- clients, you know, not getting wrapped up in this sort of sense of failure as well.
00:38:12.954 --> 00:38:16.304
So just a really important piece I wanted to kind of flag as, as you were talking about
00:38:16.414 --> 00:38:17.289
Yeah, thanks.
00:38:17.309 --> 00:38:20.409
I, I think I am someone who doesn't like rules.
00:38:21.322 --> 00:38:25.195
And I don't like rules, nor does my kid.
00:38:25.195 --> 00:38:26.541
I don't know where he gets it from.
00:38:26.943 --> 00:38:32.262
It's hard because we're always wanting someone to give us an answer, especially when there's discomfort, you know?
00:38:32.724 --> 00:39:00.275
And this is w- again, where because of some of the limitations, and constraints that came up for me in my life, this is how I started to realize, like, I am t- I am actually taking in more little micro-joys or glimmers, as people say, in my own environment by totally turning off all of the other things and just being there.
00:39:00.280 --> 00:39:03.947
Even hanging out with my dog, you know, and just watching her little expressions.
00:39:04.242 --> 00:39:15.844
And it's not usually for long, but I, I, I've realized and I've noticed how that's helped me regulate myself a lot better than even three years ago, where I...
00:39:16.036 --> 00:39:17.561
it was not good, you know?
00:39:17.561 --> 00:39:18.061
There was...
00:39:18.423 --> 00:39:24.117
My, my son experiences extreme mental health challenges,, not anything any parent ever thought that they would have to go through.
00:39:24.626 --> 00:39:28.648
And so, that doesn't make it easy for you as the adult trying to co-regulate, right?
00:39:29.193 --> 00:39:34.947
And so, and, and h- the other thing is the prescriptive pieces, like people are like,"You need self-care.
00:39:34.947 --> 00:39:35.545
You need this.
00:39:35.548 --> 00:39:42.242
What are you doing for yourself?" I'm like,"I can't actually leave my house." I can't actually...
00:39:42.295 --> 00:39:44.313
There's affordability issues in that.
00:39:44.326 --> 00:39:45.130
There's all these things.
00:39:45.139 --> 00:39:57.420
So all I could honestly do was start to intentionally check out of all the things that wanted my attention and check into, I don't know, whatever is around me
00:39:57.742 --> 00:39:57.751
Mm-hmm.
00:39:58.755 --> 00:39:59.507
Exactly.
00:39:59.548 --> 00:39:59.969
Yeah.
00:40:00.047 --> 00:40:03.675
I mean, w- i- i- it, it's, it's, it's, it's exactly kinda what you're mentioning there.
00:40:03.677 --> 00:40:06.385
I really kinda resonate with a lot of, a lot of things that you're saying.
00:40:06.452 --> 00:40:12.706
And, you know, a- also this sorta stuff, this, this, things that we wanna do, things we wanna notice are, are very unique to, to us as well.
00:40:13.099 --> 00:40:21.030
Like, you're kinda saying like, oh, like, looking at spiders in my garden is, is something, or, or, or looking at my dog and then, and then that creates those moments of joy that are really important for you.
00:40:21.333 --> 00:40:23.614
I can't pres- no- no one can prescribe that to you.
00:40:23.764 --> 00:40:24.293
Uhum!
00:40:24.378 --> 00:40:26.443
it's something that you, you kinda found on your own.
00:40:26.452 --> 00:40:30.960
No one came along and said,"Hey, you know, look at spiders for 10 minutes a day and you'll feel better," right?
00:40:31.672 --> 00:40:32.074
You know?
00:40:32.077 --> 00:40:32.418
So,
00:40:34.744 --> 00:40:35.333
It's true.
00:40:35.577 --> 00:40:35.943
too.
00:40:36.179 --> 00:40:36.481
Yeah
00:40:36.579 --> 00:40:42.474
But then there's also the thing where, like, if, if I, if, like, I'm someone, if, if someone told me to do something, no, I'm really not gonna do it.
00:40:42.528 --> 00:40:50.887
Like, if someone told me,"Go look at spiders for 10 minutes," I'm definitely not g- I wasn't gonna do it before, and now I'm really not gonna do it, so yeah.
00:40:50.894 --> 00:40:51.786
Yeah, I, I know.
00:40:51.914 --> 00:40:53.384
I, I just stumbled upon it
00:40:54.798 --> 00:40:55.219
Uhum.
00:40:55.507 --> 00:40:55.789
And
00:40:55.960 --> 00:40:56.335
great,
00:40:56.550 --> 00:41:03.407
I think that's one of the things is like making space for that, for curiosity.
00:41:04.585 --> 00:41:06.063
Uhum
00:41:06.201 --> 00:41:06.648
don't know.
00:41:06.653 --> 00:41:14.286
I don't know what it is, but being open to I, I think of this concept of receiving.
00:41:14.297 --> 00:41:14.543
You know?
00:41:14.543 --> 00:41:16.418
We- it's really hard for us to receive.
00:41:17.188 --> 00:41:21.023
Receive a gift, to receive joy, pleasure.
00:41:21.041 --> 00:41:22.208
Like, I, I think we're...
00:41:22.391 --> 00:41:24.054
It's receiving is a weird
00:41:25.255 --> 00:41:25.594
Hum.
00:41:26.257 --> 00:41:32.059
and so I think it's, like, this openness to receive I, I don't know what,'cause there's nothing I'm not...
00:41:32.657 --> 00:41:34.666
I didn't think about the spiders in advance, right?
00:41:35.168 --> 00:41:37.762
But just this openness of, like, being receptive
00:41:39.278 --> 00:41:39.672
Yeah.
00:41:39.701 --> 00:41:49.443
I mean, it, it's kinda like what I was saying at the, at the beginning of our talk about receiving gratitude and how, like, for me, that's, like, something I have to, like, really kind of, like, do.
00:41:49.445 --> 00:42:11.981
It just doesn't come naturally, this receiving kinda process., And it makes my mind kinda think,"Well, why is that so difficult?" And the first thing that kinda pops up for me is, well, when you're, when you're open to receiving, you're open to receiving everything, you know, not just necessarily the good things, but maybe even some things that are not so great or things that you were afraid of or maybe hoping, not to connect with or afraid what would happen if you did connect with them.
00:42:11.981 --> 00:42:37.268
So if you're in a, in a For example, if you're in, in a body that at this, at this point in time just doesn't feel safe, maybe there is, a, a, a, a history of trauma, or you're in a particular point in your journey with trauma, sometimes it just, it doesn't feel safe to be in your body to be in that open kind of receiving, a way'cause that means opening up to all this other stuff, that might kinda come up, whatever might be kind of underneath the surface, and really be, be exposed to that.
00:42:37.268 --> 00:42:43.489
So I think there's kind of like a protective thing in there about kinda not receiving and why it's so difficult depending on what kinda comes up.
00:42:44.570 --> 00:42:49.838
This is so, this is such an- another interesting thing to consider because often...
00:42:50.900 --> 00:43:03.030
Well, I'm just thinking about what came up for me now is all of the conversations around women's bodies and the Cornell Seven, and, a lot of the times when things happen to someone's bodies, it's without consent, right?
00:43:03.429 --> 00:43:04.882
Uhum
00:43:05.164 --> 00:43:13.760
And what I'm saying is, like, I'm- I'm consenting to myself.
00:43:13.786 --> 00:43:18.507
Like, I'm saying,"I actually am going to step away from here'cause I just want to...
00:43:18.974 --> 00:43:20.088
I, I want to be bored.
00:43:20.103 --> 00:43:21.340
I want to be alone.
00:43:22.286 --> 00:43:26.461
I want quiet." So this concept of res- yeah, it's such an interesting topic.
00:43:26.487 --> 00:43:27.702
That's such an interesting...
00:43:27.842 --> 00:43:28.143
Hum,
00:43:28.677 --> 00:43:36.021
Because yeah, I think a lot of the times our bodies experience things that are out of our control and without our consent
00:43:37.532 --> 00:43:37.746
Yeah.
00:43:38.146 --> 00:43:39.105
Yeah, exactly.
00:43:39.186 --> 00:43:39.516
Yeah.
00:43:39.980 --> 00:43:45.507
I think, I think for some people, you know, maybe the, the noticing, is helpful to turn it, turn it down.
00:43:45.740 --> 00:43:58.925
To, to, to, to notice less for, for, you know, a particular period of time or, or that can also be a, a strategy that, that someone might utilize, you know, as well, I think it, it, it blocks you from a lot of things for sure when you, when you do that.
00:43:58.943 --> 00:44:15.039
So it is important to, when you, when you, say, do something like turning down how much you're noticing, to understand that that's, that's maybe for you at this moment, a strategy that's helpful, but something you wanna reconnect with later, so being able to kinda turn it back up, open yourself up to receive when it, when it does feel appropriate.
00:44:15.340 --> 00:44:23.333
Or, or kind of maybe opening yourself up, when it, when it doesn't feel too safe, but working with someone and getting that support to reestablish that sense of safety.
00:44:23.333 --> 00:44:34.735
So I think a lot of times people might have a fear of, of receiving and opening up for what might come up, and I think a lot of the times when you do open yourself up like that, you're kinda surprised that thing you were afraid of didn't really happen.
00:44:34.974 --> 00:44:35.371
You know?
00:44:35.492 --> 00:44:42.023
There's a, there's a fear that you might receive something, that is, that is negative or, something that you're struggling with.
00:44:42.096 --> 00:44:47.802
And so this is why I think sometimes therapy's really interesting because you can do that with, with support.
00:44:47.996 --> 00:44:53.751
You can open yourself up and receive in the therapeutic relationship, and there's a therapist kinda going,"See?
00:44:54.030 --> 00:44:55.295
The world didn't come to an end.
00:44:55.518 --> 00:44:57.559
Nothing, you know, n- nothing collapsed.
00:44:57.561 --> 00:44:58.222
You're still okay.
00:44:58.222 --> 00:45:04.451
You're still safe even though you opened yourself up, either to me here in this space or to kinda, the world in general.
00:45:04.782 --> 00:45:07.405
I'm here to support you with that and, and look at this.
00:45:07.405 --> 00:45:09.907
When you did open up, nothing terrible happened.
00:45:09.907 --> 00:45:10.813
You're actually still okay.
00:45:10.813 --> 00:45:11.800
You're still yourself.
00:45:12.295 --> 00:45:15.152
You're still your same person that you were a second ago.
00:45:15.492 --> 00:45:21.197
Nothing really terrible happened." But with trauma it feels as if something terrible will happen if I do receive, you know?
00:45:21.387 --> 00:45:32.871
And, and then that sometimes needs to be, sometimes, not all the time, but you know, worked through, through in a, in a therapy session., To have someone there support you and to let you know that, when you do open yourself up, everything will be okay again.
00:45:33.494 --> 00:45:36.456
I feel like, what you were just saying is how I speak to my son a lot.
00:45:37.628 --> 00:45:37.811
Oh
00:45:37.922 --> 00:45:38.846
you tried the thing,
00:45:39.952 --> 00:45:40.387
Uh-huh.
00:45:40.563 --> 00:45:41.063
it was hard.
00:45:42.186 --> 00:45:44.338
I could see it was really fucking hard for you.
00:45:45.248 --> 00:45:45.956
And guess what?
00:45:46.206 --> 00:45:46.914
You did it.
00:45:48.050 --> 00:45:49.599
Uhum
00:45:49.653 --> 00:45:52.545
need to go and zone out for a bit, so go do that
00:45:53.896 --> 00:45:54.315
Mm-hmm.
00:45:54.628 --> 00:45:55.048
Mm-hmm.
00:45:56.385 --> 00:45:56.505
Ja.
00:45:56.891 --> 00:45:59.112
That sounds a lot like how I end some therapy sessions.
00:45:59.873 --> 00:46:19.500
you did a lot of really great work today, and now it's time to, you know, take care of yourself and, and, and not forget that piece, that this, this is work, this whole, you know, a step out into a world that might feel unsafe or opening yourself up." You know, it's a very vulnerable space and, and we're not We don't give ourselves credit when we, when we spend time in a vulnerable space, how difficult that can be.
00:46:19.762 --> 00:46:22.882
So being able to do that sort of like,"Okay, I took one step forward.
00:46:22.882 --> 00:46:27.608
Now I'm gonna retreat for a little bit and take care of myself," and then, and then maybe tomorrow kind of two steps out.
00:46:27.652 --> 00:46:27.862
Yeah
00:46:28.195 --> 00:46:33.210
Well, yeah, and I think that's when you slowly start to notice new things, right?
00:46:33.210 --> 00:46:34.536
When you take those little steps?
00:46:34.621 --> 00:46:41.027
And like you said, sometimes those things aren't comfortable, and sometimes it's like,"Oh, hmm, who knew?
00:46:41.134 --> 00:46:42.389
Spiders."
00:46:43.661 --> 00:46:44.239
Exactly.
00:46:44.239 --> 00:46:45.416
Yeah, yeah, you discover that.
00:46:45.416 --> 00:46:46.068
Yeah, totally.
00:46:46.264 --> 00:46:46.552
Yeah
00:46:46.641 --> 00:46:49.619
what's one thing that you hope that you never stop noticing?
00:46:52.063 --> 00:46:52.659
Oh, man.
00:46:52.911 --> 00:46:57.170
Um, really hope I don't stop noticing...
00:46:58.436 --> 00:47:09.179
Hmm, let's see I really hope I don't stop noticing, the wonderful people around me.
00:47:10.096 --> 00:47:17.157
'Cause that's something that I can forget when I'm, when I'm very stressed or, you know, I got a lot of my stuff coming up, I wanna isolate.
00:47:17.596 --> 00:47:19.114
The world doesn't kind of feel safe.
00:47:19.114 --> 00:47:20.208
I wanna kind of pull back.
00:47:20.213 --> 00:47:28.668
But I wanna c-continue to, to notice that there, there's people around me, and they're really wonderful, and I've got lots of support and got a lot to be grateful for.
00:47:28.670 --> 00:47:45.956
So continuing to notice the people that, that are in my life,'cause for some reason, I don't know what it is, and, and maybe other people are the same way, as soon as something's going on with me that goes offline, I just think,"Well, I've got this problem and I'm completely alone with it, and I'd better figure it out," instead of,"Oh, actually, I've got all these people that really care about me, and I care about them.
00:47:46.250 --> 00:47:51.516
Maybe I should share my problem with them." So yeah, really just noticing that there's, there's still people around me.
00:47:51.557 --> 00:47:54.085
I think that's a really great thing I wanna keep, keep in mind.
00:47:54.728 --> 00:48:10.445
I love that and I can relate,'cause life can be isolating sometimes, and then you go,"Actually There's people out there that care, and it- that's such an important thing to never stop noticing.
00:48:10.465 --> 00:48:11.764
I love that so much.
00:48:11.773 --> 00:48:13.230
Uhum
00:48:13.626 --> 00:48:17.503
ask you and offer you the space to do a shameless plug right now.
00:48:17.804 --> 00:48:21.418
I know you just opened up your practice, so why don't you tell us a little bit more about that
00:48:21.840 --> 00:48:22.500
Yeah, of course.
00:48:22.510 --> 00:48:28.137
Thank you for the, for the opportunity as well to be here and talk about these things and, be able to do a little bit of a shameless plug.
00:48:28.139 --> 00:48:29.735
I won't do too much of a plug.
00:48:29.742 --> 00:48:54.086
You know, it-- I, I think my plug is basically gonna be, you know, if, if you really found this episode interesting and some of the things that I'm talking about or some of the things on this podcast kind of interesting and wanna continue these conversations, with a mental health professional, we've got this wonderful, clinic that's just opened up, Layers Counseling Wellness, where we have a whole roster of counselors that are really interested in exploring all the topics we kinda talked about today and more.
00:48:54.375 --> 00:48:56.682
I've got some wonderful counselors that I've just hired.
00:48:56.965 --> 00:48:57.972
They're fantastic.
00:48:58.134 --> 00:48:59.365
They're really talented.
00:48:59.478 --> 00:49:05.853
Uh, I'm in a really interesting and lucky privileged position where I can kind of pick and choose who's gonna be on the roster'cause I'm
00:49:06.092 --> 00:49:07.846
Yeah, I was like,"'Cause you're teaching," right?
00:49:08.436 --> 00:49:08.925
Yes.
00:49:09.034 --> 00:49:09.217
like,
00:49:09.342 --> 00:49:09.672
yeah.
00:49:11.876 --> 00:49:14.800
S- I've poached the sort of the best of the best.
00:49:14.806 --> 00:49:22.092
So yeah, if you're looking for just a little bit of extra support, with your mental health, Layers Counseling Wellness, you can find us online and at Instagram.
00:49:22.255 --> 00:49:28.782
and I, I did wanna quickly ask, if you don't mind, because you were s- you said here in your bio about the psychedelic integration.
00:49:28.798 --> 00:49:33.192
Is that something that you do in your practice at Layers?
00:49:34.271 --> 00:49:35.516
Like working with people
00:49:35.543 --> 00:49:42.382
it's Yeah, it's something I wanna be It is something that I, that I do, like, when I'm working with a, a client.
00:49:42.416 --> 00:49:48.324
If, if the psychedelic stuff comes up, I am trained to, to navigate that conversation about integration.
00:49:49.324 --> 00:49:56.009
but actually, in a few weeks I've I, I haven't posted it yet, but I wanna actually start running, a sharing circle for psychedelic integration.
00:49:56.416 --> 00:50:00.036
So that's something that's gonna be live on the website very soon and on social media.
00:50:00.088 --> 00:50:16.280
I wanna kinda cr- I, I'm gonna be creating a space where a lot of us can kinda come together and, and share our experience with psychedelics because that's part of the integration as well, finding a sharing circle, finding a community, where you can kinda continue to integrate some of these ideas and, and, and, and be heard and listen to other people as well.
00:50:16.329 --> 00:50:30.217
I've seen so many, criticisms around psychedelics and people going, you know, wherever and then having this whatever ayahuasca experience and then coming back and there's like no integration and, and you know, good for...
00:50:30.251 --> 00:50:33.239
Uh, yay, I'm glad that you went and had that, but there's, there's...
00:50:33.273 --> 00:50:40.409
Integration's such an important part of, you know, you've op- you've op- you've had this opening and you're raw and then what?
00:50:40.789 --> 00:50:41.900
So I love that.
00:50:42.235 --> 00:50:46.625
And are you also offering in your clinic like supported psychedelic treatments?
00:50:47.608 --> 00:50:48.054
Because
00:50:48.460 --> 00:50:49.550
Uh, yeah
00:50:49.608 --> 00:50:51.465
know that's a thing, like as well.
00:50:53.405 --> 00:50:54.543
I've looked into it myself.
00:50:55.594 --> 00:50:55.793
yeah.
00:50:55.807 --> 00:51:02.514
Although I don't love the idea of being in a therapy room, I have to say, and doing s- like, I'd rather be like in nature or something like that.
00:51:03.025 --> 00:51:10.101
But yes, I know that that's becoming more of a thing where people will go and work with a therapist and have like a supported psychedelic experience.
00:51:12.585 --> 00:51:29.221
Yeah, that's something that, you know, a-a-again, right now I mentioned the, the, the ketamine therapy'cause right now that's the one that is, that is legal, that I am able to do that with, people is, and I, I contract my services, to a particular clinic, called Field Trip, where I do ketamine-assisted therapy.
00:51:29.222 --> 00:51:32.438
So I'm the therapist in the room that sits with you as you go through the experience.
00:51:32.833 --> 00:51:39.117
And then of course, I'm, I'm also trained as well to support people who are journeying with, uh, psilocybin as well.
00:51:39.405 --> 00:51:47.423
So that's something I'm very passionate and very interested and have done some training and, and able to support people, should they wanna choose that particular, healing modality.
00:51:47.900 --> 00:51:48.329
Okay.
00:51:48.411 --> 00:51:48.976
I love that.
00:51:48.992 --> 00:51:50.255
More on that to come, folks.
00:51:50.255 --> 00:51:53.487
I feel like that's another episode to talk specifically about that.
00:51:54.023 --> 00:51:56.128
Thank you so much, Ryan, for being here.
00:51:56.128 --> 00:52:16.643
I feel like we, our conversation was so fascinating exploring this topic of boredom and, safety and all of the things and how it just integrates back into this idea of how are we noticing things and how are we detaching as well from this attention-seeking economy
00:52:18.842 --> 00:52:23.414
It is a little bit of a battle, but it's, it's such a wonderful jumping off point, this noticing piece.
00:52:23.472 --> 00:52:24.403
I think it's really great.
00:52:24.407 --> 00:52:29.646
So I really appreciate you having me on, on the podcast, and being able to talk about some of these things.
00:52:29.646 --> 00:52:37.193
I had a fantastic time talking about these, these, these are, these topics that I think are so important, and I feel like we could continue this conversation and go in a bunch of different directions.
00:52:37.193 --> 00:52:40.429
So always appreciate, having a space to do this, so thank you
00:52:40.871 --> 00:52:44.974
Thank you so much, and thanks for everyone who is listening here with us today.
00:52:45.288 --> 00:52:51.824
I'll make sure that all of Ryan's information is in the show notes so that you know how to connect with Ryan.
00:52:52.101 --> 00:52:57.297
Check out his therapy practice and all the other amazing practitioners there as well.
00:52:57.704 --> 00:53:03.916
And until next time, I hope that you notice something that just sparks a little bit of wonder in your life.
00:53:04.710 --> 00:53:07.121
What a wonderful conversation we had today with Ryan.
00:53:07.159 --> 00:53:12.036
I wanna thank him so much for being my guest today on Noticing the Ordinary.
00:53:12.309 --> 00:53:17.518
Wanna thank you all for tuning into our conversation, and I hope that you got something out of it.
00:53:17.831 --> 00:53:23.021
Perhaps, maybe even a little curiosity about embracing boredom.
00:53:23.715 --> 00:53:26.460
Thanks so much for listening to Noticing the Ordinary.
00:53:26.536 --> 00:53:31.773
If you enjoyed this episode, don't forget to subscribe, or hey, even consider sending it to a friend.
00:53:32.237 --> 00:53:36.076
This has been a Mateus Studios production by yours truly, Michele Mateus.
00:53:36.655 --> 00:53:41.541
And until next time, I hope that something ordinary crosses your path soon...