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Hello and welcome to Notes on Resilience.
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I'm your host, Monia Chelinsky, and today I spoke with Leroy Thompson, who's a DEI and resilience consultant, and we had an amazing conversation about the evolution of stress management and how that ties in with resiliency and things like self-regulation and the hidden costs of stress on an organization and productivity.
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Like so many of my conversations, it just was such a great part of my day.
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I hope you enjoy it as much as I did.
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Hi, LaRoy.
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Before I have you tell us who you are and why you and I are talking today, I want to ask you a question.
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If you could have a superpower, what would it be?
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Well, I think my superpower would the ability to be invisible.
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Ooh.
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I've I've had that question before, you know, in various training sessions.
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And I think out of all the things outside of making myself an instant billionaire, uh, if that's a superpower, then that certainly would uh would be first.
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But just the idea to be places and to see things and listen to things undetected, I think that'd be very valuable.
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Oh, there are rooms I would want to be listening in on.
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I absolutely fortunately I do have a set of ethics, so I wouldn't uh I wouldn't have any nefarious plans for that superpower, but that'd be awesome.
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You know, I'm glad you said that.
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I think all of the superpowers we we all talk about and we all wish we have, there do need to be some sort of rules around them because otherwise it would be bedlam.
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Yeah, everything can tend to the dark side if we're not careful.
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Yes.
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As they say, with great power comes great responsibility.
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Exactly.
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Exactly.
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So, LaRoy, let's just jump in.
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I want to know who you are and what you do and why it is that you and I are talking about trauma and resiliency today.
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Yeah, so this topic uh is near and dear, of course, and I'm coming at, I guess, from several uh perspectives.
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Um, I have been an independent consultant uh going back to the mid-1980s.
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Um, and a lot of my work in organizational development and strategy and things of that nature uh has always addressed the issues of how stress affects how effective we are.
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And so I go back to the days where it was really stress management, right?
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And there wasn't any focus on things like resilience, certainly not trauma.
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Uh, and the idea was that if you were dealing with stress, you kept it to yourself because it just wasn't something that we admitted to.
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Uh so from a consulting standpoint, I've worked in that area.
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Most recently, um, have worked on a number of grants uh in social service programs and have gone into uh focusing on the understanding of the pervasive impact of trauma.
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I actually have a uh certification as a trauma support specialist.
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I don't have any clinical background or that in terms of treating trauma, but in terms of be able to uh talk about trauma-informed care and things of that nature.
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Secondly, I um have for the last 30 years co-pastored a small non-denominational church.
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Oh, wow.
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You know, there is a dimension of ourselves where resilience and trauma actually intersect uh with matters of faith, regardless of what your faith perspective is.
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Right.
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And so, particularly in these last couple of years, even in our congregational gatherings, we've talked a lot about handling the trauma of the things we're faced with.
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And then uh in various shapes and forms, being available to help other people work through various levels of difficulties.
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Um again, uh from a from a couple of different perspectives.
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I do lots of training these days, uh, connected with a uh strategic partner of mine called Greenleaf Integrate.
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I'll give him a plug.
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It's not my plug.
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Greenleafintegrative.com.
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They are a fantastic organization.
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They specialize in resilience and trauma-informed design and trauma-informed care.
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And I do lots of uh training as a practitioner with them.
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And so, again, really near and dear to my heart personally uh as well as professionally.
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Thank you for that introduction.
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You are really steeped in the concept of resiliency and trauma recovery from a lot of different angles.
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You know, it's interesting you use the term stress management, and that it kind of flashed me back to the past.
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That it doesn't seem we talk about that term so much anymore.
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Maybe we've we've moved on, or is resiliency the new form of stress management?
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I think I think resiliency is the new form of stress management.
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And and I think the major uh advancement that we've made is um I recall when doing even stress management training, it really was just sort of a conscious mental issue, right?
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Thinking good thoughts, affirmations, things of that nature.
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And I think resilience has gotten down to the core of the matter in recognizing this really is a neurobiological issue, right?
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These things that we react to and respond to uh occur far deeper, you know, in ourselves and in our brains than just our conscious understanding of things.
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And I think that's one of the really important distinctions.
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And certainly trauma, you know, gets way down deep into the core of appreciating how deep-seated these issues are.
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And we and if you have a neurobiological issue or problem, then you need a solution that's also, you know, based with some mild appreciation at a minimum of kind of how we're built and how we function.
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Right.
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I like that at a minimum, a minimum appreciation of how well you've started to be talking about the word resilience.
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And what do you think about the word resilience?
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It's not always my favorite word.
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So I'm curious what other people think about it.
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Yeah, you know, and and I and I do think um we have struggled to find terminology that kind of encompass it.
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So when I when I think of resilience, I think of building up, I like to envision as a reservoir uh that we build up over time so that when we face situations that challenge, you know, our ability to deal with stress, uh, that we have some capacity to absorb the stress and certainly, uh, depending on the nature of the circumstance, to bounce back as as uh as quickly and as completely as we can.
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Um that's kind of my mental picture.
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It's sort of like a the coil spring, you know, when you compress it and then you let it go, it has the ability to come back to something near uh its former shape.
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Right.
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Right.
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Okay.
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So what do you think people most misunderstand about the concept of resiliency?
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I think uh there are a couple of things.
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One, again, I would certainly have to reiterate the uh idea of it being neurobiological, right?
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Something that occurs in that fight-flight response, you know, part of our brain.
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Again, my background in that is is only through study and development.
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I was pre-med in uh college.
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I think I lasted almost the entire semester.
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Oh wow.
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So when I say at a minimum, it lasted that long.
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Yeah, exactly.
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Exactly.
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So when I say at a minimum, I'm I'm, you know, in a in a facetious sort of way suggesting you don't have to know a lot about it.
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It isn't that you have to be a neuroscientist, but just to appreciate that our conscious responses are really dictated by some decisions our brain made at that second because of what it does.
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So I think that's one level of understanding that if you get to that level, it changes everything.
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You just appreciate how you operate better.
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Um, I think the second thing that we misunderstand is resilience ought to be, at least in my way of thinking, something that you practice on a more regular basis, right?
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As opposed to waiting until you need it.
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Oh.
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Right.
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Yeah.
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Can you dive into that a little bit deeper?
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Yeah, for sure, for sure.
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Uh it's part of my my upbringing.
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My my grandmother, one of my grandmother's favorite sayings was, it's better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.
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Yeah.
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So uh, you know, we you the idea is that you practice resilience, uh managing your stress at a at a very acceptable level so that when you encounter uh stressful situations, you have some capacity.
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You know, I kind of uh liken it to being at the beach, right?
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Uh if you're if you're out in the water just up under your nose, it doesn't take much of a wave, right?
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Uh to put you in a precarious situation, right?
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Yes.
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Or if you're waiting sometime around your knees, or maybe even at your waist, or maybe, you know, just below your chest, you have some capacity.
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You can take a wave and it not uh cause you to be uh drinking water and to be in a uh in a difficult situation.
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Oh, I like that that picture of sort of being in the water and the waves.
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Yeah, because the waves come every day, right?
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I mean Right.
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And sometimes they're big, sometimes they're small.
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Um, oh, I'm I hope you're okay.
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I'm going to start using that.
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Oh, absolutely.
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Your yours to take.
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Um, you know, so you also think about trauma and how um, you know, people and organizations can be trauma-informed or trauma-sensitive.
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What do you think is the role of our systems and our institutions, our organizations in helping people heal from trauma or to support resiliency in all of us?
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Yeah, I I think I think it's a major role.
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Um, and I think our last couple of years of, you know, making such a rapid transition from working in person to working virtually has really magnified that.
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You know, there now is no separation between your work self and your personal self.
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And if you are having difficulty regulating your stress levels personally, it's going to have an impact in terms of productivity.
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Um, I think one of the real breakthroughs, and and this breakthrough was about 10 or 10 or 12 years ago, a fairly major study done by the private sector, which actually put a number on the amount of productivity that's lost in organizations because of various kinds of stress, mild stress, significant stress.
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And of course, you know, when we talk about trauma, there's a significant loss uh there in terms of functioning.
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And so, you know, I think there is uh there's a huge value and a huge benefit to organizations in appreciating.
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It's it's very delicate, of course, right?
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Um, and the ability, again, to deal with these things organizationally is coming along.
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We've made lots of progress.
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Uh, but there are lots of organizations, again, where it's just uncomfortable to suggest that people in our organization can be more stressed than is healthy for them.
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That's a difficult thing, you know, to admit.
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And then if you put the label of trauma on it, it's like, no way are we traumatized here.
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That's just not, that's not something that uh, you know, is uh is palatable for most organizations.
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And I appreciate that because it it is not well, it's not enough well understood that we actually know what we're talking about.
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It's not a bad place to work.
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It's just that we're doing difficult work in a difficult environment under difficult circumstances.
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Yes.
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And I hear you, the word trauma is so central to the conversation, but it is triggering and it is not always a word that makes people feel like they want to even be talking about the word.
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Exactly.
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Yeah.
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It's almost like the word can traumatize you.
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I know.
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Well, it's certain, I I certainly can appreciate that.
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You know, when you talk about organizations, you know, I think about the companies that we work for, and these are organizations that we are oftentimes intimately connected with.
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But the role of a company, you know, a software development company or a you know retail store, their job is not really to care about my personal mental health if I'm an employee of theirs.
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So I guess why should they care about my mental health?
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And how can we help organizations understand the importance of supporting the resiliency and taking care of the mental health and helping the trauma recovery of the people who are part of that organization?
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Yeah, yeah, definitely.
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The why question is relatively easy to answer.
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The how a little bit more difficult.
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Um, the the why to me is because there is a significant uh return on investment in terms of uh the quality as well as the quality of work that people do when they're able to regulate the the stress of their environment, uh, and when they learn tools and techniques to be able to do that.
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To me, it's a it's a real simple proposition.
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You you do a better job and you perform better when you have that capacity.
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Uh, you also think about what's the cost of absenteeism, the cost of lost hours, uh, the cost of poor workmanship or the inability to interact with a client or a customer in a way that causes them to stick with your organization.
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I think those are all, you know, many of the hidden costs when we don't pay enough attention to employee welfare and well-being.
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And then there's another side to it.
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You know, of course, in the last couple of years, we faced across the organizations what was called the great resignation, right?
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Almost two million people uh decided that they were not going to continue to work in the same capacity or type of work, et cetera.
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And uh there are lots of studies that have been done on why.
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One of the most remarkable uh results of the studies was apparently the number one reason was the idea of not feeling respected in their workplace, not being treated as a valuable contributor uh to you know the job that a lot of people do care about their work.
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I think it's a myth to say people don't care.
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They really do.
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It's hard to show up someplace for eight or 10 hours, right?
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And not want to do something that matters.
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And so that that's an even more subtle issue in terms of the stress created by not having a workplace that gives people the chance to feel engaged.
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So um, you know, uh to me, there's there's just really, really good solid evidence for why uh employee employers should care about the welfare and well-being of the people uh who who work in those organizations.
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Right.
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Yeah.
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Is there is it possible to draw a clear straight line between, you know, work to become more trauma-informed and trauma-sensitive and supportive of resiliency and the bottom line for an organization?
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Yeah, definitely.
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There there really is.
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Um, you know, the the one study, I I think it was done by the American Psychological Association.
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They put a number on it.
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Uh, they estimated that something like$3.2 billion uh in productivity were lost because of various types of stress and stressors.
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So yeah, yeah.
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And a lot of that is certainly taking anecdotal data from employees uh and mapping it to you know what the outcome of those are.
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And of course, we're always uh concerned about anecdotal data, but when you get, you know, a couple million pieces of anecdotal data and it starts to point in the right direction, uh, that that certainly is uh is worth looking at.
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And so again, I I think they've done a fairly credible job uh again of making that connection in a way that ought to be really meaningful for anyone running uh an organization or anyone in a position of leadership within an organization.
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Right.
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That's a pretty big number.
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It's a big number.
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That's a huge number.
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What do you think is a sticking point for organizations?
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I guess now we're sort of talking about companies, enterprises, workplaces.
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What do you think is a sticking point for them, these organizations, to not be paying attention to supporting resiliency and being trauma-informed?
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Yeah, I think one of those is just lack of more in-depth education and awareness around the issues.
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And again, the language that we present it in has made that more difficult than it probably should have been.
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Uh, you know, we we have to find language that helps them appreciate that um trauma, as we call it, and the need for resilience is a norm.
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It's not a reflection of you having a bad place to work or not being a good leader or not having a healthy organization.
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That's a human norm based upon how we're built as people.
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And whether your employees are showing it or telling you or not, it's there already.
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So I think you have to help them approach that um better.
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The the other one is again a little bit trickier, and that is, and you know, you suggested this, you know, uh a couple of times.
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And the question is at what point, though, does my corporate responsibility end, an individual's personal responsibility begin?
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That's a that's a tough call.
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Uh and it's really hard to find the right uh point of demarcation in a general sense.
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It really is very situational and it's based on the culture of the organization in terms of where, you know, uh people are comfortable making that distinction.
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Yes.
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I'm so glad you brought up the topic of personal responsibility.
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I am someone who, in general, is all about personal responsibility.
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We each have a responsibility to our community, to ourselves.
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And then to find myself talking about resiliency and being trauma-informed and then talking about it as well, it's the system.
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And um those two things live in me, which is I appreciate that we do have personal responsibility, but I think our system and our organizations also have a responsibility.
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Exactly.
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Yeah, yeah.
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I I like I liken the problem to uh matters of physical health.
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So an employer would never say, Hey, Larry, you know, you're a few pounds over.
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That's not good for you.
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Maybe you ought to think about changing your diet.
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It's like, excuse me.
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That's really not, it's none of your business.
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And so uh connected to that would be one's mental health.
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Uh and mental health, obviously, with all the stigmas, of course, uh that surround it, become even more difficult to broach that topic.
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Yes.
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And I also think a lot about, you know, the way our organizations are set up.
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So I am myself a survivor of a pretty major trauma.
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Um if you know me at some point you've probably heard me talking about it.
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I I've I've heard the story.
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Absolutely.
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It's amazing.
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Yeah.
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But I actually, though I talk about it in this kind of capacity, it isn't something I share in my personal life for the most part.
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And I would not want to have to disclose it.
00:19:07.819 --> 00:19:13.500
So I also think about like working within, you know, working within the confines of an organization.
00:19:13.900 --> 00:19:28.700
I'm wishing that there was a way that organizations could be supportive of everyone so that one does not have to disclose the specific thing that happened or that I am a trauma survivor in order to get services or support.
00:19:28.940 --> 00:19:29.259
Yep.
00:19:29.420 --> 00:19:30.940
That that really is important.
00:19:31.099 --> 00:19:35.579
Um, I've done uh, you know, a bunch of work with organizations in resilience.
00:19:35.740 --> 00:19:43.660
Not so much, we're beginning to work with trauma, but again, you're only going to find opportunities in places that have already understood the topic.
00:19:43.740 --> 00:19:45.740
So healthcare, places like that.
00:19:45.980 --> 00:19:50.140
Your manufacturing company, your sales organization, probably not yet.
00:19:50.380 --> 00:20:07.099
But even in those places, just the idea of making training in resilience available and optional for anyone who's interested, uh, making mindfulness resources available for anyone who's interested as an option uh is a starting point.
00:20:07.259 --> 00:20:07.579
Yes.
00:20:07.819 --> 00:20:10.860
Because it's uh it's very, it's very indirect, very benign.
00:20:10.940 --> 00:20:12.940
You're not suggesting we have a problem.
00:20:13.099 --> 00:20:24.220
You're not suggesting you need to do this, but just to make people aware that there are resources that they can uh take advantage of, which is no different than our uh EAP programs that most organizations have.
00:20:24.779 --> 00:20:25.180
Right.
00:20:25.500 --> 00:20:48.380
And I also think about it um similarly to the way I think about a you know diversity and inclusion program, which is need to be, you know, supportive of everyone in their different kinds of experiences and make it possible for everyone to participate without necessarily having to self-identify or or specifically ask for help.
00:20:48.700 --> 00:20:50.860
Yeah, very close uh to the mark.
00:20:51.099 --> 00:20:58.940
About 80% of the training and consulting I've been doing in the last four or five years has been in that diversity, equity, inclusion space.
00:20:59.180 --> 00:21:05.099
And I think people are now starting to see that there really is a more than an indirect connection between the two.
00:21:05.420 --> 00:21:05.900
Yes.
00:21:06.220 --> 00:21:07.180
Interesting.
00:21:07.500 --> 00:21:14.460
So, you know, what is an important lesson that you have learned about resilience because of the work that you've been doing?
00:21:14.860 --> 00:21:16.380
Wow, there are a lot.
00:21:17.420 --> 00:21:23.579
You know, mainly mainly because to me, this is one of those uh lifelong learning topics.
00:21:24.059 --> 00:21:32.059
Uh, at least me personally, I don't think you ever get to the point where you master resilience or you master your understanding of trauma.
00:21:32.220 --> 00:21:35.180
I think it's something that you uh you continue to discover.
00:21:35.500 --> 00:21:37.579
The first things are uh are really personal.
00:21:37.660 --> 00:21:47.099
I can describe them in general, but just when you start to investigate this area, you begin to develop a real capacity for introspection.
00:21:47.500 --> 00:21:53.980
And you really start to examine the reason that you respond to things the way you respond.
00:21:54.460 --> 00:22:04.140
Uh and a lot of cases, uh, what you learn isn't necessarily the best parts of your behavior or the best parts of your personality.
00:22:04.299 --> 00:22:16.700
Uh, but you know, when you talk about things like emotional intelligence, right, where self-awareness is such a critical thing or empathy is such a critical thing, um, I have grown tremendously in my uh capacity for both.
00:22:16.860 --> 00:22:18.779
Still going at it, you can ask my wife.
00:22:18.940 --> 00:22:20.539
She can she can tell you all about it.
00:22:20.700 --> 00:22:33.740
But I I can say that my understanding of why I do things the way I do them and why I react the way that I react has made a significant difference in the quality of my uh my personal relationships, family.
00:22:34.140 --> 00:22:36.860
As well as colleagues, as well as you know, all others.
00:22:37.259 --> 00:22:48.220
And then secondly, as you start to investigate it, you develop an amazing capacity for empathy around people who are in difficult places.
00:22:48.620 --> 00:22:53.579
I wouldn't have considered myself a discompassionate person at all, particularly being in ministry.
00:22:53.660 --> 00:23:05.420
I mean, that kind of comes with the territory, but I've been amazed at how much more I've been able to appreciate what someone might have gone through that is the reason for their behavior.
00:23:05.579 --> 00:23:14.059
Uh and this extends, honestly, to some of the more horrific things that have happened just in the last several years, even the last week or so.
00:23:14.380 --> 00:23:31.420
Those things don't excuse behavior, but you do understand uh how troubled, how wounded, how broken a person is when they find themselves uh committing the kinds of acts against other human beings that we've seen.
00:23:31.579 --> 00:23:33.019
Uh again, it doesn't excuse it.
00:23:33.099 --> 00:23:40.460
I I have to say that a bunch of times because I don't want to suggest at all that uh trauma and those things excuse bad behaviors.
00:23:41.019 --> 00:23:50.460
Uh, but it does, it does help you appreciate, you know, the the notion in the in the in the church world, we have a saying that says, hurt people, hurt people.
00:23:50.620 --> 00:23:50.700
Yeah.
00:23:50.860 --> 00:23:54.059
And I'm sure it's not just the church world, uh, but it it does.
00:23:54.140 --> 00:24:14.140
So I I would say, you know, that has been just such a significant personal growth, uh, still, still, still going at it, of course, but just uh developing more self-awareness and sensing the value of that and even enhancing my capacity for empathy beyond what I thought I needed, even uh, has been just really amazing.
00:24:14.539 --> 00:24:16.860
Oh, that's so wonderful to hear.
00:24:17.099 --> 00:24:31.980
And I will say that, you know, without knowing the particulars, it sounds like my journey of understanding resiliency is quite similar to yours in sort of learning about myself and the way I think about other people as well.
00:24:32.299 --> 00:24:37.420
And I'm so glad you said that phrase, hurt people, hurt people.
00:24:37.579 --> 00:24:40.539
That's what I was thinking when you were talking about that.
00:24:40.620 --> 00:24:47.819
And we actually have an earlier episode of the podcast where we talked with David Dotti, and he is involved in the justice system.
00:24:47.980 --> 00:24:51.819
And we talked about the concept of hurt people, hurt people.
00:24:52.299 --> 00:25:04.380
And how can that be true when it is also true that we know that people, that most people who have had a trauma or who have a mental health issue do not commit crimes.
00:25:04.620 --> 00:25:10.140
So we unpacked that in this earlier episode, and I'll put a link in the show notes for everybody.
00:25:10.299 --> 00:25:13.339
But LaRoy, I'm so glad you brought that up.
00:25:13.579 --> 00:25:21.420
And I don't know about you, but just learning what I have about trauma and how it impacts people.
00:25:21.980 --> 00:25:31.740
I realized there's just a lot more of it out there, and a lot more people are carrying things, difficult things, than I ever realized when I was younger.
00:25:32.059 --> 00:25:32.380
Yeah.
00:25:32.620 --> 00:25:43.339
Yeah, you you really do uh get the sense every time you learn more, my response has been it's even more pervasive than it was the last time I learned something.
00:25:43.660 --> 00:25:44.299
Yes.
00:25:45.579 --> 00:25:48.940
What I want is who are the people not traumatized?
00:25:49.180 --> 00:25:49.579
Exactly.
00:25:49.660 --> 00:25:50.220
Yeah, yeah.
00:25:50.299 --> 00:25:52.460
We we might be really, really shocked.
00:25:52.539 --> 00:26:02.059
Uh, you know, particularly if you uh look at all the research, the adverse concept, uh adverse childhood experiences work that was done in the mid-1990s and uh and things going forward.
00:26:02.220 --> 00:26:22.460
But you know, your your example, you know, of knowing that some people who are traumatized do do horrific things, others don't, that points to just the complexity of this and the fact that you can't predict, you know, how an individual is gonna react or respond, you know, whether their problems are gonna show up right away or later on.
00:26:22.700 --> 00:26:31.819
Uh it's just a really complex field, which again, you know, speaks to me uh the notion of it being just an ongoing learning process because of that complexity.
00:26:32.140 --> 00:26:32.779
Yes.
00:26:33.019 --> 00:26:40.140
And you know, my experiences with uh mass violence, and I walked away, I was physically unwounded.
00:26:40.539 --> 00:26:58.380
You would not have been able to identify which of us in you know, at the event that day, just by looking at us, you would not know that person's gonna be okay, that person's gonna take a couple months to to brush it off, that person's gonna get PTSD, that person's gonna take five years to recover.
00:26:58.539 --> 00:27:10.620
Like there's just, I mean, I know that's you can't really do that with physical injuries either, but there's something concrete about them where you can say, well, it you have a broken leg, and it typically takes a broken leg X to heal.
00:27:10.860 --> 00:27:11.339
Exactly.
00:27:11.579 --> 00:27:18.779
And it's not possible, even with psychological first aid after an event like that, we don't know who it's going to be.
00:27:18.940 --> 00:27:19.259
Okay.
00:27:20.220 --> 00:27:21.660
Cannot tell, cannot predict.
00:27:21.819 --> 00:27:28.539
And and then just, you know, the the you mentioned, you know, the things that we need to appreciate to do a better job with this.
00:27:28.700 --> 00:27:40.059
Uh, most people um 10 years ago would have said, well, if you were just there and you saw it happen, then why did it bother you?
00:27:40.299 --> 00:27:52.700
And at the same time, they have less trouble appreciating that someone who is in Iraq or Iran uh in the Gulf War who saw their colleagues, you know, killed or shot, uh, come home with PTSD.
00:27:52.940 --> 00:27:54.380
That makes sense to them.
00:27:54.539 --> 00:27:55.019
Yes.
00:27:55.259 --> 00:27:58.299
The other doesn't quite make as much sense to them.
00:27:59.420 --> 00:28:00.059
I know.
00:28:00.220 --> 00:28:01.500
I I hear you.
00:28:01.660 --> 00:28:03.420
I've spoken to some of those people directly.
00:28:04.059 --> 00:28:04.460
Yeah, right.
00:28:04.620 --> 00:28:05.579
I can imagine you have.
00:28:05.660 --> 00:28:09.180
I I I really admire what you've done with your experience.
00:28:09.259 --> 00:28:13.579
Uh, but I I can imagine you've encountered lots of folks who just don't quite get it.
00:28:13.900 --> 00:28:14.620
Yeah, yeah.
00:28:14.860 --> 00:28:24.460
Some people who don't get it and seem to not really want to get it, and some people who genuinely are disappointed to realize they don't get it and want to learn more.
00:28:24.620 --> 00:28:28.779
So, you know, and want to understand what's what's happening.
00:28:29.259 --> 00:28:44.380
So, what is the most important action or policy, an organization or company, for example, do to be really supportive for trauma survivors in particular, but also just resiliency in general?
00:28:44.620 --> 00:28:44.860
Yeah.
00:28:44.940 --> 00:28:53.900
I again, I think it goes back to one uh making resources available to employees as a starting point.
00:28:54.220 --> 00:29:15.019
Um, I think the other thing they can do, which is what we try to do from a consulting standpoint, uh, is for them to do an honest assessment of what may be factors in the workplace setting that may actually be promoting increased stress or the things that actually might have a negative impact on people who have experienced trauma.
00:29:15.259 --> 00:29:21.900
Once you understand how pervasive this is, uh then you can really start to appreciate things like trauma-informed care.
00:29:22.140 --> 00:29:38.059
And and in the my approach to an understanding of it is that it is such a high likelihood that many of the people we interact with, whether they be employees or customers or just the general public, uh, there's going to be significant people who've experienced trauma.
00:29:38.220 --> 00:29:49.420
And so there ought to be some things that we should do to make sure that we don't, again, re-traumatize them or trigger their trauma or just make it easy for them to navigate.
00:29:49.740 --> 00:29:55.259
And these, again, it is so particular in terms of the nature of the business, the nature of the environment.
00:29:55.420 --> 00:30:02.380
But a lot of things just have to do with appreciating what are the trouble spots and the difficulties with people who face various degrees of trauma.
00:30:02.460 --> 00:30:16.940
And I try to tell potential clients and clients that here's what's going to happen to the people in your organization and those you interact with who have faced trauma, uh, it's gonna make a huge difference in their connectivity to the audience, uh, to the organization, rather.
00:30:17.099 --> 00:30:22.940
And to those who aren't traumatized, it's gonna look like really good first-class customer service, right?
00:30:23.339 --> 00:30:28.380
It's not gonna, it's not gonna be anything that people are gonna notice and say, wow, why are they doing that?
00:30:28.539 --> 00:30:39.740
Uh they're gonna see clear signage and welcoming environments and small details, you know, that your Nordstroms and the other folks do to hold on to customers.
00:30:39.819 --> 00:30:43.980
Uh and so once they appreciate that, you know, it it really does make a difference.
00:30:44.140 --> 00:30:51.980
We've also had um, you know, in some of the work I've done, particularly with Greenleaf Integrative, some tremendous success with government organizations.
00:30:52.059 --> 00:30:54.539
And you'd think that would be the most difficult spot.
00:30:54.779 --> 00:31:01.180
Some of those were sponsored by some tragic events, and so it was a reaction to it.
00:31:01.500 --> 00:31:06.620
But as can happen, those events have gotten other people thinking about the fact.
00:31:06.779 --> 00:31:10.059
Shouldn't we be prepared, you know, for other kinds of things to emerge?
00:31:10.140 --> 00:31:37.579
And so I've been really amazed at government's capacity in this, sometimes even moving faster than some private sector companies and maybe some nonprofits, with the exclusion of human service or social service-oriented nonprofits, because so much of the work they do are with people who, because of their life situation and status, you know, trauma is clearly going to be present just because of the little stress that you face.
00:31:37.819 --> 00:31:38.059
Right.
00:31:38.299 --> 00:31:58.460
Uh, government has really, you know, made more strides, I think, than they get credit for, uh, in terms of making the resources available and letting people know this makes us a better organization, but doing it in a way, again, that doesn't mandate or dictate or again cross that invisible line between personal responsibility and corporate responsibility.
00:31:58.700 --> 00:31:59.099
Yes.
00:31:59.420 --> 00:32:00.539
Oh, that's so interesting.
00:32:00.700 --> 00:32:07.660
I would not have pegged government as one of the more trauma-sensitive industries, but that's great.
00:32:07.900 --> 00:32:16.380
I'm I'm so pleased, especially when you think about, you know, whatever level of government we're talking about, they have a role in in our lives.
00:32:16.700 --> 00:32:17.099
Exactly.
00:32:17.420 --> 00:32:19.500
How we live our lives and how we do what we do.
00:32:19.660 --> 00:32:23.740
So it's I'm glad to hear that folks in those realms are paying attention.
00:32:23.980 --> 00:32:25.339
Yeah, they are paying attention.
00:32:25.660 --> 00:32:31.420
So, LaRoy, what is one question that you wish I had asked you, but I haven't asked you yet?
00:32:31.740 --> 00:32:32.539
Wow, let's see.
00:32:32.620 --> 00:32:33.099
I don't know.
00:32:33.259 --> 00:32:36.779
Your your uh your range of questions has really been stimulating.
00:32:36.860 --> 00:32:39.339
I I I can't right now think off the top.
00:32:39.500 --> 00:32:42.860
You know, I certainly like to talk about the neurobiology of trauma.
00:32:42.940 --> 00:32:49.740
I don't know uh on your podcast if that's something that your listeners would like to hear from someone who isn't a neuroscientist.
00:32:51.500 --> 00:32:57.180
But it is it is uh uh a part of education that I really get excited in.
00:32:57.259 --> 00:33:08.059
Uh I'm sure even on Sunday mornings, uh particularly uh over the the periods of the pan pandemic, uh there had to be at least half of the members of my congregation who had to be rolling their eyes.
00:33:08.220 --> 00:33:09.579
Here he goes again.
00:33:10.700 --> 00:33:14.860
The amygdala, the hippocampus, the corpus callosum, here he goes again.
00:33:15.099 --> 00:33:19.900
But uh I just I do think uh again, a little bit of that knowledge and information.
00:33:20.059 --> 00:33:22.220
So uh that's the only thing we didn't talk about.
00:33:22.299 --> 00:33:31.819
But again, uh I I don't have the kind of background I think to uh provide that information other than just a real surface understanding of the basic kinds of things.
00:33:32.220 --> 00:33:41.339
Well, you know, maybe we have to have you on a second episode where we can go into more detail the uh non-professionals view of the neuroscience.
00:33:41.740 --> 00:33:42.059
I like that.
00:33:42.140 --> 00:33:42.620
I can handle that.
00:33:42.700 --> 00:33:45.500
I feel very the non-professionals' view.
00:33:45.740 --> 00:33:46.140
Right.
00:33:46.299 --> 00:34:02.860
Well, I you know, in college, I took a um genetics for non-scientists class because I was a history major and we had to take a science, and it was I loved it because it was targeted to people for whom science wasn't the love of their life.
00:34:02.940 --> 00:34:04.539
So exactly, exactly.
00:34:04.700 --> 00:34:16.460
And you know, what's what's been really great for me is that there are a number of neuroscientists who have actually made the understanding of their of their field more accessible to folks who aren't scientists.
00:34:16.539 --> 00:34:23.179
Uh some really great writings on organizational trust and things of that nature, and explaining in really simple, really accessible terms.
00:34:23.339 --> 00:34:29.659
So that's been a I think a huge boost to people having a better appreciation of the neurobiological side of things.
00:34:29.980 --> 00:34:30.619
Yes.
00:34:31.019 --> 00:34:31.659
All right.
00:34:32.059 --> 00:34:35.420
So one more question before we wrap up.
00:34:35.900 --> 00:34:40.460
What would you tell your 18-year-old self about resiliency?
00:34:40.940 --> 00:34:41.579
Wow.
00:34:41.900 --> 00:34:42.539
Boy.
00:34:42.780 --> 00:34:48.139
There there's so many other topics that my 18-year-old self would need to hear.
00:34:49.740 --> 00:34:50.780
That's my pause.
00:34:50.940 --> 00:34:56.139
Uh, but I definitely, I definitely would tell my 18-year-old self a couple of things.
00:34:56.460 --> 00:35:00.219
One, I would say don't be in such a hurry to grow up.
00:35:00.619 --> 00:35:13.019
Take take more time and appreciate the things around you and enjoy the experience of being present much more uh than uh than he was interested in.
00:35:13.099 --> 00:35:15.099
He wanted to grow up and do all kinds of things.
00:35:15.179 --> 00:35:28.699
And I don't I don't I don't have a sense that he missed anything, but I just think that when we can appreciate mindfulness um even earlier in our development, it just benefits us uh uh later on.
00:35:28.940 --> 00:35:33.179
I I would also have told him absolutely learn how to breathe.
00:35:33.500 --> 00:35:35.900
Oh learn how to breathe, son.
00:35:35.980 --> 00:35:43.659
It's gonna be an incredibly beneficial skill as uh life shows up on a more regular and a more pronounced basis.
00:35:43.900 --> 00:35:45.420
That is a great one.
00:35:45.659 --> 00:35:47.019
Yeah, absolutely.
00:35:47.420 --> 00:36:00.460
I think I speaking for myself, that is something I wish I could tell my 18-year-old self, and I bet a lot of folks would, just knowing how much breathing and focusing on my breathing has helped in my journey.
00:36:00.780 --> 00:36:01.980
Yeah, absolutely.
00:36:02.219 --> 00:36:03.179
So all right.
00:36:03.340 --> 00:36:06.780
So as we wrap up, Leroy, how can people reach you?
00:36:07.099 --> 00:36:14.380
Uh they can reach me uh uh certainly at my uh web web address, which is uh consulthomson.com.
00:36:14.539 --> 00:36:15.019
Pretty simple.
00:36:15.179 --> 00:36:15.740
Consult.
00:36:15.820 --> 00:36:16.940
There are two T's in the middle.
00:36:17.019 --> 00:36:21.900
I always have to tell people there's a T on the end of Consult and a T at the beginning of Thompson.
00:36:22.059 --> 00:36:29.740
Uh I also have another website uh for the work I do in diversity, equity, and inclusion, which is Thompson Speaks on DEI.
00:36:30.059 --> 00:36:39.820
Um, either place I can be access and certainly uh would enjoy uh, you know, opportunities to spread this knowledge with folks and to work with them in this capacity.
00:36:39.980 --> 00:36:59.179
And so again, Mani, appreciate what you have done with your experiences uh and how you are transforming people's lives just by making them aware of the fact that uh no matter what has happened to us, there is the capacity within us uh to bring something beautiful, something rich, and something uh valuable out of it.
00:36:59.340 --> 00:37:02.619
So thank you so much for being a part of this movement, if you will.
00:37:02.860 --> 00:37:03.099
Yeah.
00:37:03.179 --> 00:37:04.460
Well, these issues.
00:37:04.940 --> 00:37:05.900
Thank you for saying that.
00:37:05.980 --> 00:37:10.219
And thank you, Leroy, for being a guest on this podcast.
00:37:10.380 --> 00:37:15.019
I'm I definitely want to have you back for another episode, so we're gonna plan that.
00:37:15.260 --> 00:37:18.139
Um, this has been a fabulous conversation.
00:37:18.380 --> 00:37:22.380
And thanks to our listeners, and we will talk to you soon.
00:37:23.099 --> 00:37:24.460
Thank you for listening.
00:37:24.699 --> 00:37:28.059
I hope you got as much out of this conversation as I did.
00:37:28.300 --> 00:37:39.740
So if you'd like to learn more about me, Mania Chilinsky, I work with organizations to help understand how to create environments where people can thrive after difficult life experiences.
00:37:39.980 --> 00:37:42.380
And I do this through talks and consulting.
00:37:42.619 --> 00:37:57.179
I'm a survivor of mass violence, and I use my experience to help leaders learn about resiliency, compassion, and trauma-sensitive leadership, to build strategies to enable teams to thrive and be engaged amidst difficulty and turmoil.
00:37:57.340 --> 00:38:11.500
If this is something you want to learn more about, visit my website, www.moniachilinsky.com, email me at mania at maniachilinsky, or stop by my social media on LinkedIn and Twitter.
00:38:11.740 --> 00:38:12.699
Thanks so much.
00:00:00.400 --> 00:00:03.200
Hello and welcome to Notes on Resilience.
00:00:03.359 --> 00:00:32.000
I'm your host, Monia Chelinsky, and today I spoke with Leroy Thompson, who's a DEI and resilience consultant, and we had an amazing conversation about the evolution of stress management and how that ties in with resiliency and things like self-regulation and the hidden costs of stress on an organization and productivity.
00:00:32.479 --> 00:00:37.840
Like so many of my conversations, it just was such a great part of my day.
00:00:38.000 --> 00:00:40.320
I hope you enjoy it as much as I did.
00:00:40.799 --> 00:00:41.920
Hi, LaRoy.
00:00:42.399 --> 00:00:50.079
Before I have you tell us who you are and why you and I are talking today, I want to ask you a question.
00:00:50.320 --> 00:00:54.159
If you could have a superpower, what would it be?
00:00:54.479 --> 00:00:58.880
Well, I think my superpower would the ability to be invisible.
00:00:59.439 --> 00:01:00.079
Ooh.
00:01:00.880 --> 00:01:04.079
I've I've had that question before, you know, in various training sessions.
00:01:04.159 --> 00:01:11.920
And I think out of all the things outside of making myself an instant billionaire, uh, if that's a superpower, then that certainly would uh would be first.
00:01:12.239 --> 00:01:18.319
But just the idea to be places and to see things and listen to things undetected, I think that'd be very valuable.
00:01:18.560 --> 00:01:22.400
Oh, there are rooms I would want to be listening in on.
00:01:22.560 --> 00:01:30.159
I absolutely fortunately I do have a set of ethics, so I wouldn't uh I wouldn't have any nefarious plans for that superpower, but that'd be awesome.
00:01:30.480 --> 00:01:31.760
You know, I'm glad you said that.
00:01:31.920 --> 00:01:41.760
I think all of the superpowers we we all talk about and we all wish we have, there do need to be some sort of rules around them because otherwise it would be bedlam.
00:01:42.159 --> 00:01:44.959
Yeah, everything can tend to the dark side if we're not careful.
00:01:45.599 --> 00:01:46.079
Yes.
00:01:46.319 --> 00:01:49.760
As they say, with great power comes great responsibility.
00:01:50.079 --> 00:01:50.560
Exactly.
00:01:50.719 --> 00:01:51.359
Exactly.
00:01:51.680 --> 00:01:54.959
So, LaRoy, let's just jump in.
00:01:55.200 --> 00:02:01.599
I want to know who you are and what you do and why it is that you and I are talking about trauma and resiliency today.
00:02:01.920 --> 00:02:07.760
Yeah, so this topic uh is near and dear, of course, and I'm coming at, I guess, from several uh perspectives.
00:02:07.920 --> 00:02:12.400
Um, I have been an independent consultant uh going back to the mid-1980s.
00:02:12.560 --> 00:02:22.400
Um, and a lot of my work in organizational development and strategy and things of that nature uh has always addressed the issues of how stress affects how effective we are.
00:02:22.560 --> 00:02:26.639
And so I go back to the days where it was really stress management, right?
00:02:26.800 --> 00:02:31.039
And there wasn't any focus on things like resilience, certainly not trauma.
00:02:31.120 --> 00:02:38.639
Uh, and the idea was that if you were dealing with stress, you kept it to yourself because it just wasn't something that we admitted to.
00:02:38.800 --> 00:02:41.840
Uh so from a consulting standpoint, I've worked in that area.
00:02:42.080 --> 00:02:52.479
Most recently, um, have worked on a number of grants uh in social service programs and have gone into uh focusing on the understanding of the pervasive impact of trauma.
00:02:52.639 --> 00:02:56.560
I actually have a uh certification as a trauma support specialist.
00:02:56.719 --> 00:03:04.879
I don't have any clinical background or that in terms of treating trauma, but in terms of be able to uh talk about trauma-informed care and things of that nature.
00:03:05.120 --> 00:03:10.560
Secondly, I um have for the last 30 years co-pastored a small non-denominational church.
00:03:10.800 --> 00:03:11.439
Oh, wow.
00:03:12.080 --> 00:03:21.199
You know, there is a dimension of ourselves where resilience and trauma actually intersect uh with matters of faith, regardless of what your faith perspective is.
00:03:21.360 --> 00:03:21.680
Right.
00:03:22.000 --> 00:03:30.879
And so, particularly in these last couple of years, even in our congregational gatherings, we've talked a lot about handling the trauma of the things we're faced with.
00:03:31.120 --> 00:03:37.360
And then uh in various shapes and forms, being available to help other people work through various levels of difficulties.
00:03:37.520 --> 00:03:40.719
Um again, uh from a from a couple of different perspectives.
00:03:40.800 --> 00:03:46.159
I do lots of training these days, uh, connected with a uh strategic partner of mine called Greenleaf Integrate.
00:03:46.319 --> 00:03:47.039
I'll give him a plug.
00:03:47.120 --> 00:03:48.080
It's not my plug.
00:03:48.560 --> 00:03:50.080
Greenleafintegrative.com.
00:03:50.159 --> 00:03:51.840
They are a fantastic organization.
00:03:51.919 --> 00:03:56.400
They specialize in resilience and trauma-informed design and trauma-informed care.
00:03:56.479 --> 00:03:59.280
And I do lots of uh training as a practitioner with them.
00:03:59.360 --> 00:04:04.319
And so, again, really near and dear to my heart personally uh as well as professionally.
00:04:04.719 --> 00:04:06.080
Thank you for that introduction.
00:04:06.240 --> 00:04:13.840
You are really steeped in the concept of resiliency and trauma recovery from a lot of different angles.
00:04:14.479 --> 00:04:23.439
You know, it's interesting you use the term stress management, and that it kind of flashed me back to the past.
00:04:24.079 --> 00:04:27.680
That it doesn't seem we talk about that term so much anymore.
00:04:27.839 --> 00:04:32.959
Maybe we've we've moved on, or is resiliency the new form of stress management?
00:04:33.279 --> 00:04:36.480
I think I think resiliency is the new form of stress management.
00:04:36.560 --> 00:04:47.439
And and I think the major uh advancement that we've made is um I recall when doing even stress management training, it really was just sort of a conscious mental issue, right?
00:04:47.600 --> 00:04:50.560
Thinking good thoughts, affirmations, things of that nature.
00:04:50.720 --> 00:04:57.839
And I think resilience has gotten down to the core of the matter in recognizing this really is a neurobiological issue, right?
00:04:57.920 --> 00:05:07.279
These things that we react to and respond to uh occur far deeper, you know, in ourselves and in our brains than just our conscious understanding of things.
00:05:07.360 --> 00:05:09.759
And I think that's one of the really important distinctions.
00:05:09.839 --> 00:05:15.920
And certainly trauma, you know, gets way down deep into the core of appreciating how deep-seated these issues are.
00:05:16.079 --> 00:05:27.519
And we and if you have a neurobiological issue or problem, then you need a solution that's also, you know, based with some mild appreciation at a minimum of kind of how we're built and how we function.
00:05:27.759 --> 00:05:28.160
Right.
00:05:28.319 --> 00:05:39.360
I like that at a minimum, a minimum appreciation of how well you've started to be talking about the word resilience.
00:05:39.519 --> 00:05:42.560
And what do you think about the word resilience?
00:05:42.720 --> 00:05:44.480
It's not always my favorite word.
00:05:44.560 --> 00:05:46.480
So I'm curious what other people think about it.
00:05:46.720 --> 00:05:53.199
Yeah, you know, and and I and I do think um we have struggled to find terminology that kind of encompass it.
00:05:53.439 --> 00:06:18.160
So when I when I think of resilience, I think of building up, I like to envision as a reservoir uh that we build up over time so that when we face situations that challenge, you know, our ability to deal with stress, uh, that we have some capacity to absorb the stress and certainly, uh, depending on the nature of the circumstance, to bounce back as as uh as quickly and as completely as we can.
00:06:18.319 --> 00:06:20.079
Um that's kind of my mental picture.
00:06:20.160 --> 00:06:29.279
It's sort of like a the coil spring, you know, when you compress it and then you let it go, it has the ability to come back to something near uh its former shape.
00:06:29.600 --> 00:06:30.000
Right.
00:06:30.160 --> 00:06:30.560
Right.
00:06:30.800 --> 00:06:31.120
Okay.
00:06:31.839 --> 00:06:38.639
So what do you think people most misunderstand about the concept of resiliency?
00:06:38.959 --> 00:06:40.399
I think uh there are a couple of things.
00:06:40.560 --> 00:06:46.240
One, again, I would certainly have to reiterate the uh idea of it being neurobiological, right?
00:06:46.319 --> 00:06:50.480
Something that occurs in that fight-flight response, you know, part of our brain.
00:06:50.639 --> 00:06:54.319
Again, my background in that is is only through study and development.
00:06:54.480 --> 00:06:56.480
I was pre-med in uh college.
00:06:56.639 --> 00:06:58.879
I think I lasted almost the entire semester.
00:06:59.439 --> 00:07:00.399
Oh wow.
00:07:01.439 --> 00:07:03.920
So when I say at a minimum, it lasted that long.
00:07:04.160 --> 00:07:04.879
Yeah, exactly.
00:07:05.040 --> 00:07:05.600
Exactly.
00:07:05.759 --> 00:07:12.800
So when I say at a minimum, I'm I'm, you know, in a in a facetious sort of way suggesting you don't have to know a lot about it.
00:07:12.959 --> 00:07:24.079
It isn't that you have to be a neuroscientist, but just to appreciate that our conscious responses are really dictated by some decisions our brain made at that second because of what it does.
00:07:24.240 --> 00:07:29.519
So I think that's one level of understanding that if you get to that level, it changes everything.
00:07:29.680 --> 00:07:31.759
You just appreciate how you operate better.
00:07:31.920 --> 00:07:41.600
Um, I think the second thing that we misunderstand is resilience ought to be, at least in my way of thinking, something that you practice on a more regular basis, right?
00:07:42.000 --> 00:07:44.319
As opposed to waiting until you need it.
00:07:44.560 --> 00:07:44.879
Oh.
00:07:45.199 --> 00:07:45.439
Right.
00:07:45.600 --> 00:07:45.839
Yeah.
00:07:46.000 --> 00:07:47.680
Can you dive into that a little bit deeper?
00:07:48.000 --> 00:07:49.040
Yeah, for sure, for sure.
00:07:49.120 --> 00:07:51.199
Uh it's part of my my upbringing.
00:07:51.360 --> 00:07:57.759
My my grandmother, one of my grandmother's favorite sayings was, it's better to have it and not need it than to need it and not have it.
00:07:57.920 --> 00:07:58.160
Yeah.
00:07:58.319 --> 00:08:10.800
So uh, you know, we you the idea is that you practice resilience, uh managing your stress at a at a very acceptable level so that when you encounter uh stressful situations, you have some capacity.
00:08:10.879 --> 00:08:13.680
You know, I kind of uh liken it to being at the beach, right?
00:08:13.920 --> 00:08:21.040
Uh if you're if you're out in the water just up under your nose, it doesn't take much of a wave, right?
00:08:21.120 --> 00:08:23.519
Uh to put you in a precarious situation, right?
00:08:23.680 --> 00:08:23.839
Yes.
00:08:24.079 --> 00:08:30.639
Or if you're waiting sometime around your knees, or maybe even at your waist, or maybe, you know, just below your chest, you have some capacity.
00:08:30.720 --> 00:08:37.120
You can take a wave and it not uh cause you to be uh drinking water and to be in a uh in a difficult situation.
00:08:37.440 --> 00:08:42.960
Oh, I like that that picture of sort of being in the water and the waves.
00:08:43.200 --> 00:08:44.879
Yeah, because the waves come every day, right?
00:08:44.960 --> 00:08:45.840
I mean Right.
00:08:46.000 --> 00:08:48.159
And sometimes they're big, sometimes they're small.
00:08:48.320 --> 00:08:50.559
Um, oh, I'm I hope you're okay.
00:08:50.639 --> 00:08:51.519
I'm going to start using that.
00:08:51.840 --> 00:08:52.399
Oh, absolutely.
00:08:52.559 --> 00:08:53.919
Your yours to take.
00:08:55.120 --> 00:09:05.759
Um, you know, so you also think about trauma and how um, you know, people and organizations can be trauma-informed or trauma-sensitive.
00:09:06.080 --> 00:09:19.039
What do you think is the role of our systems and our institutions, our organizations in helping people heal from trauma or to support resiliency in all of us?
00:09:19.279 --> 00:09:21.679
Yeah, I I think I think it's a major role.
00:09:21.840 --> 00:09:30.960
Um, and I think our last couple of years of, you know, making such a rapid transition from working in person to working virtually has really magnified that.
00:09:31.519 --> 00:09:35.919
You know, there now is no separation between your work self and your personal self.
00:09:36.080 --> 00:09:42.720
And if you are having difficulty regulating your stress levels personally, it's going to have an impact in terms of productivity.
00:09:42.879 --> 00:09:59.759
Um, I think one of the real breakthroughs, and and this breakthrough was about 10 or 10 or 12 years ago, a fairly major study done by the private sector, which actually put a number on the amount of productivity that's lost in organizations because of various kinds of stress, mild stress, significant stress.
00:09:59.840 --> 00:10:05.120
And of course, you know, when we talk about trauma, there's a significant loss uh there in terms of functioning.
00:10:05.360 --> 00:10:11.600
And so, you know, I think there is uh there's a huge value and a huge benefit to organizations in appreciating.
00:10:11.759 --> 00:10:14.000
It's it's very delicate, of course, right?
00:10:14.399 --> 00:10:19.600
Um, and the ability, again, to deal with these things organizationally is coming along.
00:10:19.759 --> 00:10:21.120
We've made lots of progress.
00:10:21.279 --> 00:10:31.120
Uh, but there are lots of organizations, again, where it's just uncomfortable to suggest that people in our organization can be more stressed than is healthy for them.
00:10:31.279 --> 00:10:34.320
That's a difficult thing, you know, to admit.
00:10:34.559 --> 00:10:39.360
And then if you put the label of trauma on it, it's like, no way are we traumatized here.
00:10:39.600 --> 00:10:44.480
That's just not, that's not something that uh, you know, is uh is palatable for most organizations.
00:10:44.559 --> 00:10:51.519
And I appreciate that because it it is not well, it's not enough well understood that we actually know what we're talking about.
00:10:51.600 --> 00:10:53.120
It's not a bad place to work.
00:10:53.279 --> 00:10:58.000
It's just that we're doing difficult work in a difficult environment under difficult circumstances.
00:11:32.379 --> 00:11:33.019
Yes.
00:11:33.259 --> 00:11:49.820
And I hear you, the word trauma is so central to the conversation, but it is triggering and it is not always a word that makes people feel like they want to even be talking about the word.
00:11:50.379 --> 00:11:50.860
Exactly.
00:11:50.940 --> 00:11:51.259
Yeah.
00:11:51.420 --> 00:11:53.420
It's almost like the word can traumatize you.
00:11:53.659 --> 00:11:53.899
I know.
00:11:53.980 --> 00:11:57.500
Well, it's certain, I I certainly can appreciate that.
00:11:57.820 --> 00:12:08.539
You know, when you talk about organizations, you know, I think about the companies that we work for, and these are organizations that we are oftentimes intimately connected with.
00:12:08.860 --> 00:12:23.180
But the role of a company, you know, a software development company or a you know retail store, their job is not really to care about my personal mental health if I'm an employee of theirs.
00:12:23.420 --> 00:12:27.740
So I guess why should they care about my mental health?
00:12:27.820 --> 00:12:42.620
And how can we help organizations understand the importance of supporting the resiliency and taking care of the mental health and helping the trauma recovery of the people who are part of that organization?
00:12:42.860 --> 00:12:43.899
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
00:12:44.300 --> 00:12:46.460
The why question is relatively easy to answer.
00:12:46.539 --> 00:12:48.539
The how a little bit more difficult.
00:12:48.700 --> 00:13:07.100
Um, the the why to me is because there is a significant uh return on investment in terms of uh the quality as well as the quality of work that people do when they're able to regulate the the stress of their environment, uh, and when they learn tools and techniques to be able to do that.
00:13:07.420 --> 00:13:09.820
To me, it's a it's a real simple proposition.
00:13:09.980 --> 00:13:15.100
You you do a better job and you perform better when you have that capacity.
00:13:15.259 --> 00:13:29.180
Uh, you also think about what's the cost of absenteeism, the cost of lost hours, uh, the cost of poor workmanship or the inability to interact with a client or a customer in a way that causes them to stick with your organization.
00:13:29.340 --> 00:13:36.940
I think those are all, you know, many of the hidden costs when we don't pay enough attention to employee welfare and well-being.
00:13:37.100 --> 00:13:38.460
And then there's another side to it.
00:13:38.539 --> 00:13:45.019
You know, of course, in the last couple of years, we faced across the organizations what was called the great resignation, right?
00:13:45.180 --> 00:13:53.500
Almost two million people uh decided that they were not going to continue to work in the same capacity or type of work, et cetera.
00:13:53.659 --> 00:13:56.379
And uh there are lots of studies that have been done on why.
00:13:56.539 --> 00:14:13.420
One of the most remarkable uh results of the studies was apparently the number one reason was the idea of not feeling respected in their workplace, not being treated as a valuable contributor uh to you know the job that a lot of people do care about their work.
00:14:13.580 --> 00:14:15.500
I think it's a myth to say people don't care.
00:14:15.659 --> 00:14:16.220
They really do.
00:14:16.300 --> 00:14:19.100
It's hard to show up someplace for eight or 10 hours, right?
00:14:19.180 --> 00:14:21.420
And not want to do something that matters.
00:14:21.580 --> 00:14:31.100
And so that that's an even more subtle issue in terms of the stress created by not having a workplace that gives people the chance to feel engaged.
00:14:31.259 --> 00:14:45.259
So um, you know, uh to me, there's there's just really, really good solid evidence for why uh employee employers should care about the welfare and well-being of the people uh who who work in those organizations.
00:14:45.580 --> 00:14:45.980
Right.
00:14:46.220 --> 00:14:46.539
Yeah.
00:14:47.019 --> 00:15:02.220
Is there is it possible to draw a clear straight line between, you know, work to become more trauma-informed and trauma-sensitive and supportive of resiliency and the bottom line for an organization?
00:15:02.460 --> 00:15:03.259
Yeah, definitely.
00:15:03.420 --> 00:15:04.379
There there really is.
00:15:04.539 --> 00:15:09.340
Um, you know, the the one study, I I think it was done by the American Psychological Association.
00:15:09.580 --> 00:15:10.860
They put a number on it.
00:15:11.019 --> 00:15:21.259
Uh, they estimated that something like$3.2 billion uh in productivity were lost because of various types of stress and stressors.
00:15:21.420 --> 00:15:23.019
So yeah, yeah.
00:15:23.100 --> 00:15:31.500
And a lot of that is certainly taking anecdotal data from employees uh and mapping it to you know what the outcome of those are.
00:15:31.659 --> 00:15:43.500
And of course, we're always uh concerned about anecdotal data, but when you get, you know, a couple million pieces of anecdotal data and it starts to point in the right direction, uh, that that certainly is uh is worth looking at.
00:15:43.580 --> 00:15:55.019
And so again, I I think they've done a fairly credible job uh again of making that connection in a way that ought to be really meaningful for anyone running uh an organization or anyone in a position of leadership within an organization.
00:15:55.340 --> 00:15:55.820
Right.
00:15:55.980 --> 00:15:57.180
That's a pretty big number.
00:15:57.420 --> 00:15:58.220
It's a big number.
00:15:58.379 --> 00:15:59.259
That's a huge number.
00:15:59.580 --> 00:16:03.180
What do you think is a sticking point for organizations?
00:16:03.340 --> 00:16:07.820
I guess now we're sort of talking about companies, enterprises, workplaces.
00:16:08.060 --> 00:16:18.300
What do you think is a sticking point for them, these organizations, to not be paying attention to supporting resiliency and being trauma-informed?
00:16:18.539 --> 00:16:24.300
Yeah, I think one of those is just lack of more in-depth education and awareness around the issues.
00:16:24.700 --> 00:16:31.340
And again, the language that we present it in has made that more difficult than it probably should have been.
00:16:31.500 --> 00:16:39.740
Uh, you know, we we have to find language that helps them appreciate that um trauma, as we call it, and the need for resilience is a norm.
00:16:40.060 --> 00:16:46.779
It's not a reflection of you having a bad place to work or not being a good leader or not having a healthy organization.
00:16:46.940 --> 00:16:50.620
That's a human norm based upon how we're built as people.
00:16:50.779 --> 00:16:55.580
And whether your employees are showing it or telling you or not, it's there already.
00:16:55.740 --> 00:16:59.259
So I think you have to help them approach that um better.
00:16:59.500 --> 00:17:05.819
The the other one is again a little bit trickier, and that is, and you know, you suggested this, you know, uh a couple of times.
00:17:05.899 --> 00:17:14.619
And the question is at what point, though, does my corporate responsibility end, an individual's personal responsibility begin?
00:17:14.779 --> 00:17:16.299
That's a that's a tough call.
00:17:16.460 --> 00:17:22.700
Uh and it's really hard to find the right uh point of demarcation in a general sense.
00:17:22.859 --> 00:17:31.819
It really is very situational and it's based on the culture of the organization in terms of where, you know, uh people are comfortable making that distinction.
00:17:32.139 --> 00:17:32.539
Yes.
00:17:32.779 --> 00:17:36.619
I'm so glad you brought up the topic of personal responsibility.
00:17:36.859 --> 00:17:40.940
I am someone who, in general, is all about personal responsibility.
00:17:41.099 --> 00:17:45.180
We each have a responsibility to our community, to ourselves.
00:17:45.500 --> 00:17:53.900
And then to find myself talking about resiliency and being trauma-informed and then talking about it as well, it's the system.
00:17:54.539 --> 00:18:04.539
And um those two things live in me, which is I appreciate that we do have personal responsibility, but I think our system and our organizations also have a responsibility.
00:18:04.860 --> 00:18:05.500
Exactly.
00:18:05.660 --> 00:18:06.539
Yeah, yeah.
00:18:06.779 --> 00:18:11.019
I I like I liken the problem to uh matters of physical health.
00:18:11.819 --> 00:18:16.220
So an employer would never say, Hey, Larry, you know, you're a few pounds over.
00:18:16.380 --> 00:18:17.339
That's not good for you.
00:18:17.500 --> 00:18:19.339
Maybe you ought to think about changing your diet.
00:18:19.420 --> 00:18:20.620
It's like, excuse me.
00:18:20.940 --> 00:18:23.259
That's really not, it's none of your business.
00:18:24.779 --> 00:18:28.220
And so uh connected to that would be one's mental health.
00:18:28.299 --> 00:18:37.259
Uh and mental health, obviously, with all the stigmas, of course, uh that surround it, become even more difficult to broach that topic.
00:18:37.660 --> 00:18:38.220
Yes.
00:18:38.460 --> 00:18:43.339
And I also think a lot about, you know, the way our organizations are set up.
00:18:43.740 --> 00:18:47.259
So I am myself a survivor of a pretty major trauma.
00:18:47.420 --> 00:18:50.940
Um if you know me at some point you've probably heard me talking about it.
00:18:51.180 --> 00:18:52.380
I I've I've heard the story.
00:18:52.460 --> 00:18:52.860
Absolutely.
00:18:52.940 --> 00:18:53.420
It's amazing.
00:18:53.579 --> 00:18:53.819
Yeah.
00:18:53.980 --> 00:19:02.460
But I actually, though I talk about it in this kind of capacity, it isn't something I share in my personal life for the most part.
00:19:02.779 --> 00:19:07.579
And I would not want to have to disclose it.
00:19:07.819 --> 00:19:13.500
So I also think about like working within, you know, working within the confines of an organization.
00:19:13.900 --> 00:19:28.700
I'm wishing that there was a way that organizations could be supportive of everyone so that one does not have to disclose the specific thing that happened or that I am a trauma survivor in order to get services or support.
00:19:28.940 --> 00:19:29.259
Yep.
00:19:29.420 --> 00:19:30.940
That that really is important.
00:19:31.099 --> 00:19:35.579
Um, I've done uh, you know, a bunch of work with organizations in resilience.
00:19:35.740 --> 00:19:43.660
Not so much, we're beginning to work with trauma, but again, you're only going to find opportunities in places that have already understood the topic.
00:19:43.740 --> 00:19:45.740
So healthcare, places like that.
00:19:45.980 --> 00:19:50.140
Your manufacturing company, your sales organization, probably not yet.
00:19:50.380 --> 00:20:07.099
But even in those places, just the idea of making training in resilience available and optional for anyone who's interested, uh, making mindfulness resources available for anyone who's interested as an option uh is a starting point.
00:20:07.259 --> 00:20:07.579
Yes.
00:20:07.819 --> 00:20:10.860
Because it's uh it's very, it's very indirect, very benign.
00:20:10.940 --> 00:20:12.940
You're not suggesting we have a problem.
00:20:13.099 --> 00:20:24.220
You're not suggesting you need to do this, but just to make people aware that there are resources that they can uh take advantage of, which is no different than our uh EAP programs that most organizations have.
00:20:24.779 --> 00:20:25.180
Right.
00:20:25.500 --> 00:20:48.380
And I also think about it um similarly to the way I think about a you know diversity and inclusion program, which is need to be, you know, supportive of everyone in their different kinds of experiences and make it possible for everyone to participate without necessarily having to self-identify or or specifically ask for help.
00:20:48.700 --> 00:20:50.860
Yeah, very close uh to the mark.
00:20:51.099 --> 00:20:58.940
About 80% of the training and consulting I've been doing in the last four or five years has been in that diversity, equity, inclusion space.
00:20:59.180 --> 00:21:05.099
And I think people are now starting to see that there really is a more than an indirect connection between the two.
00:21:05.420 --> 00:21:05.900
Yes.
00:21:06.220 --> 00:21:07.180
Interesting.
00:21:07.500 --> 00:21:14.460
So, you know, what is an important lesson that you have learned about resilience because of the work that you've been doing?
00:21:14.860 --> 00:21:16.380
Wow, there are a lot.
00:21:17.420 --> 00:21:23.579
You know, mainly mainly because to me, this is one of those uh lifelong learning topics.
00:21:24.059 --> 00:21:32.059
Uh, at least me personally, I don't think you ever get to the point where you master resilience or you master your understanding of trauma.
00:21:32.220 --> 00:21:35.180
I think it's something that you uh you continue to discover.
00:21:35.500 --> 00:21:37.579
The first things are uh are really personal.
00:21:37.660 --> 00:21:47.099
I can describe them in general, but just when you start to investigate this area, you begin to develop a real capacity for introspection.
00:21:47.500 --> 00:21:53.980
And you really start to examine the reason that you respond to things the way you respond.
00:21:54.460 --> 00:22:04.140
Uh and a lot of cases, uh, what you learn isn't necessarily the best parts of your behavior or the best parts of your personality.
00:22:04.299 --> 00:22:16.700
Uh, but you know, when you talk about things like emotional intelligence, right, where self-awareness is such a critical thing or empathy is such a critical thing, um, I have grown tremendously in my uh capacity for both.
00:22:16.860 --> 00:22:18.779
Still going at it, you can ask my wife.
00:22:18.940 --> 00:22:20.539
She can she can tell you all about it.
00:22:20.700 --> 00:22:33.740
But I I can say that my understanding of why I do things the way I do them and why I react the way that I react has made a significant difference in the quality of my uh my personal relationships, family.
00:22:34.140 --> 00:22:36.860
As well as colleagues, as well as you know, all others.
00:22:37.259 --> 00:22:48.220
And then secondly, as you start to investigate it, you develop an amazing capacity for empathy around people who are in difficult places.
00:22:48.620 --> 00:22:53.579
I wouldn't have considered myself a discompassionate person at all, particularly being in ministry.
00:22:53.660 --> 00:23:05.420
I mean, that kind of comes with the territory, but I've been amazed at how much more I've been able to appreciate what someone might have gone through that is the reason for their behavior.
00:23:05.579 --> 00:23:14.059
Uh and this extends, honestly, to some of the more horrific things that have happened just in the last several years, even the last week or so.
00:23:14.380 --> 00:23:31.420
Those things don't excuse behavior, but you do understand uh how troubled, how wounded, how broken a person is when they find themselves uh committing the kinds of acts against other human beings that we've seen.
00:23:31.579 --> 00:23:33.019
Uh again, it doesn't excuse it.
00:23:33.099 --> 00:23:40.460
I I have to say that a bunch of times because I don't want to suggest at all that uh trauma and those things excuse bad behaviors.
00:23:41.019 --> 00:23:50.460
Uh, but it does, it does help you appreciate, you know, the the notion in the in the in the church world, we have a saying that says, hurt people, hurt people.
00:23:50.620 --> 00:23:50.700
Yeah.
00:23:50.860 --> 00:23:54.059
And I'm sure it's not just the church world, uh, but it it does.
00:23:54.140 --> 00:24:14.140
So I I would say, you know, that has been just such a significant personal growth, uh, still, still, still going at it, of course, but just uh developing more self-awareness and sensing the value of that and even enhancing my capacity for empathy beyond what I thought I needed, even uh, has been just really amazing.
00:24:14.539 --> 00:24:16.860
Oh, that's so wonderful to hear.
00:24:17.099 --> 00:24:31.980
And I will say that, you know, without knowing the particulars, it sounds like my journey of understanding resiliency is quite similar to yours in sort of learning about myself and the way I think about other people as well.
00:24:32.299 --> 00:24:37.420
And I'm so glad you said that phrase, hurt people, hurt people.
00:24:37.579 --> 00:24:40.539
That's what I was thinking when you were talking about that.
00:24:40.620 --> 00:24:47.819
And we actually have an earlier episode of the podcast where we talked with David Dotti, and he is involved in the justice system.
00:24:47.980 --> 00:24:51.819
And we talked about the concept of hurt people, hurt people.
00:24:52.299 --> 00:25:04.380
And how can that be true when it is also true that we know that people, that most people who have had a trauma or who have a mental health issue do not commit crimes.
00:25:04.620 --> 00:25:10.140
So we unpacked that in this earlier episode, and I'll put a link in the show notes for everybody.
00:25:10.299 --> 00:25:13.339
But LaRoy, I'm so glad you brought that up.
00:25:13.579 --> 00:25:21.420
And I don't know about you, but just learning what I have about trauma and how it impacts people.
00:25:21.980 --> 00:25:31.740
I realized there's just a lot more of it out there, and a lot more people are carrying things, difficult things, than I ever realized when I was younger.
00:25:32.059 --> 00:25:32.380
Yeah.
00:25:32.620 --> 00:25:43.339
Yeah, you you really do uh get the sense every time you learn more, my response has been it's even more pervasive than it was the last time I learned something.
00:25:43.660 --> 00:25:44.299
Yes.
00:25:45.579 --> 00:25:48.940
What I want is who are the people not traumatized?
00:25:49.180 --> 00:25:49.579
Exactly.
00:25:49.660 --> 00:25:50.220
Yeah, yeah.
00:25:50.299 --> 00:25:52.460
We we might be really, really shocked.
00:25:52.539 --> 00:26:02.059
Uh, you know, particularly if you uh look at all the research, the adverse concept, uh adverse childhood experiences work that was done in the mid-1990s and uh and things going forward.
00:26:02.220 --> 00:26:22.460
But you know, your your example, you know, of knowing that some people who are traumatized do do horrific things, others don't, that points to just the complexity of this and the fact that you can't predict, you know, how an individual is gonna react or respond, you know, whether their problems are gonna show up right away or later on.
00:26:22.700 --> 00:26:31.819
Uh it's just a really complex field, which again, you know, speaks to me uh the notion of it being just an ongoing learning process because of that complexity.
00:26:32.140 --> 00:26:32.779
Yes.
00:26:33.019 --> 00:26:40.140
And you know, my experiences with uh mass violence, and I walked away, I was physically unwounded.
00:26:40.539 --> 00:26:58.380
You would not have been able to identify which of us in you know, at the event that day, just by looking at us, you would not know that person's gonna be okay, that person's gonna take a couple months to to brush it off, that person's gonna get PTSD, that person's gonna take five years to recover.
00:26:58.539 --> 00:27:10.620
Like there's just, I mean, I know that's you can't really do that with physical injuries either, but there's something concrete about them where you can say, well, it you have a broken leg, and it typically takes a broken leg X to heal.
00:27:10.860 --> 00:27:11.339
Exactly.
00:27:11.579 --> 00:27:18.779
And it's not possible, even with psychological first aid after an event like that, we don't know who it's going to be.
00:27:18.940 --> 00:27:19.259
Okay.
00:27:20.220 --> 00:27:21.660
Cannot tell, cannot predict.
00:27:21.819 --> 00:27:28.539
And and then just, you know, the the you mentioned, you know, the things that we need to appreciate to do a better job with this.
00:27:28.700 --> 00:27:40.059
Uh, most people um 10 years ago would have said, well, if you were just there and you saw it happen, then why did it bother you?
00:27:40.299 --> 00:27:52.700
And at the same time, they have less trouble appreciating that someone who is in Iraq or Iran uh in the Gulf War who saw their colleagues, you know, killed or shot, uh, come home with PTSD.
00:27:52.940 --> 00:27:54.380
That makes sense to them.
00:27:54.539 --> 00:27:55.019
Yes.
00:27:55.259 --> 00:27:58.299
The other doesn't quite make as much sense to them.
00:27:59.420 --> 00:28:00.059
I know.
00:28:00.220 --> 00:28:01.500
I I hear you.
00:28:01.660 --> 00:28:03.420
I've spoken to some of those people directly.
00:28:04.059 --> 00:28:04.460
Yeah, right.
00:28:04.620 --> 00:28:05.579
I can imagine you have.
00:28:05.660 --> 00:28:09.180
I I I really admire what you've done with your experience.
00:28:09.259 --> 00:28:13.579
Uh, but I I can imagine you've encountered lots of folks who just don't quite get it.
00:28:13.900 --> 00:28:14.620
Yeah, yeah.
00:28:14.860 --> 00:28:24.460
Some people who don't get it and seem to not really want to get it, and some people who genuinely are disappointed to realize they don't get it and want to learn more.
00:28:24.620 --> 00:28:28.779
So, you know, and want to understand what's what's happening.
00:28:29.259 --> 00:28:44.380
So, what is the most important action or policy, an organization or company, for example, do to be really supportive for trauma survivors in particular, but also just resiliency in general?
00:28:44.620 --> 00:28:44.860
Yeah.
00:28:44.940 --> 00:28:53.900
I again, I think it goes back to one uh making resources available to employees as a starting point.
00:28:54.220 --> 00:29:15.019
Um, I think the other thing they can do, which is what we try to do from a consulting standpoint, uh, is for them to do an honest assessment of what may be factors in the workplace setting that may actually be promoting increased stress or the things that actually might have a negative impact on people who have experienced trauma.
00:29:15.259 --> 00:29:21.900
Once you understand how pervasive this is, uh then you can really start to appreciate things like trauma-informed care.
00:29:22.140 --> 00:29:38.059
And and in the my approach to an understanding of it is that it is such a high likelihood that many of the people we interact with, whether they be employees or customers or just the general public, uh, there's going to be significant people who've experienced trauma.
00:29:38.220 --> 00:29:49.420
And so there ought to be some things that we should do to make sure that we don't, again, re-traumatize them or trigger their trauma or just make it easy for them to navigate.
00:29:49.740 --> 00:29:55.259
And these, again, it is so particular in terms of the nature of the business, the nature of the environment.
00:29:55.420 --> 00:30:02.380
But a lot of things just have to do with appreciating what are the trouble spots and the difficulties with people who face various degrees of trauma.
00:30:02.460 --> 00:30:16.940
And I try to tell potential clients and clients that here's what's going to happen to the people in your organization and those you interact with who have faced trauma, uh, it's gonna make a huge difference in their connectivity to the audience, uh, to the organization, rather.
00:30:17.099 --> 00:30:22.940
And to those who aren't traumatized, it's gonna look like really good first-class customer service, right?
00:30:23.339 --> 00:30:28.380
It's not gonna, it's not gonna be anything that people are gonna notice and say, wow, why are they doing that?
00:30:28.539 --> 00:30:39.740
Uh they're gonna see clear signage and welcoming environments and small details, you know, that your Nordstroms and the other folks do to hold on to customers.
00:30:39.819 --> 00:30:43.980
Uh and so once they appreciate that, you know, it it really does make a difference.
00:30:44.140 --> 00:30:51.980
We've also had um, you know, in some of the work I've done, particularly with Greenleaf Integrative, some tremendous success with government organizations.
00:30:52.059 --> 00:30:54.539
And you'd think that would be the most difficult spot.
00:30:54.779 --> 00:31:01.180
Some of those were sponsored by some tragic events, and so it was a reaction to it.
00:31:01.500 --> 00:31:06.620
But as can happen, those events have gotten other people thinking about the fact.
00:31:06.779 --> 00:31:10.059
Shouldn't we be prepared, you know, for other kinds of things to emerge?
00:31:10.140 --> 00:31:37.579
And so I've been really amazed at government's capacity in this, sometimes even moving faster than some private sector companies and maybe some nonprofits, with the exclusion of human service or social service-oriented nonprofits, because so much of the work they do are with people who, because of their life situation and status, you know, trauma is clearly going to be present just because of the little stress that you face.
00:31:37.819 --> 00:31:38.059
Right.
00:31:38.299 --> 00:31:58.460
Uh, government has really, you know, made more strides, I think, than they get credit for, uh, in terms of making the resources available and letting people know this makes us a better organization, but doing it in a way, again, that doesn't mandate or dictate or again cross that invisible line between personal responsibility and corporate responsibility.
00:31:58.700 --> 00:31:59.099
Yes.
00:31:59.420 --> 00:32:00.539
Oh, that's so interesting.
00:32:00.700 --> 00:32:07.660
I would not have pegged government as one of the more trauma-sensitive industries, but that's great.
00:32:07.900 --> 00:32:16.380
I'm I'm so pleased, especially when you think about, you know, whatever level of government we're talking about, they have a role in in our lives.
00:32:16.700 --> 00:32:17.099
Exactly.
00:32:17.420 --> 00:32:19.500
How we live our lives and how we do what we do.
00:32:19.660 --> 00:32:23.740
So it's I'm glad to hear that folks in those realms are paying attention.
00:32:23.980 --> 00:32:25.339
Yeah, they are paying attention.
00:32:25.660 --> 00:32:31.420
So, LaRoy, what is one question that you wish I had asked you, but I haven't asked you yet?
00:32:31.740 --> 00:32:32.539
Wow, let's see.
00:32:32.620 --> 00:32:33.099
I don't know.
00:32:33.259 --> 00:32:36.779
Your your uh your range of questions has really been stimulating.
00:32:36.860 --> 00:32:39.339
I I I can't right now think off the top.
00:32:39.500 --> 00:32:42.860
You know, I certainly like to talk about the neurobiology of trauma.
00:32:42.940 --> 00:32:49.740
I don't know uh on your podcast if that's something that your listeners would like to hear from someone who isn't a neuroscientist.
00:32:51.500 --> 00:32:57.180
But it is it is uh uh a part of education that I really get excited in.
00:32:57.259 --> 00:33:08.059
Uh I'm sure even on Sunday mornings, uh particularly uh over the the periods of the pan pandemic, uh there had to be at least half of the members of my congregation who had to be rolling their eyes.
00:33:08.220 --> 00:33:09.579
Here he goes again.
00:33:10.700 --> 00:33:14.860
The amygdala, the hippocampus, the corpus callosum, here he goes again.
00:33:15.099 --> 00:33:19.900
But uh I just I do think uh again, a little bit of that knowledge and information.
00:33:20.059 --> 00:33:22.220
So uh that's the only thing we didn't talk about.
00:33:22.299 --> 00:33:31.819
But again, uh I I don't have the kind of background I think to uh provide that information other than just a real surface understanding of the basic kinds of things.
00:33:32.220 --> 00:33:41.339
Well, you know, maybe we have to have you on a second episode where we can go into more detail the uh non-professionals view of the neuroscience.
00:33:41.740 --> 00:33:42.059
I like that.
00:33:42.140 --> 00:33:42.620
I can handle that.
00:33:42.700 --> 00:33:45.500
I feel very the non-professionals' view.
00:33:45.740 --> 00:33:46.140
Right.
00:33:46.299 --> 00:34:02.860
Well, I you know, in college, I took a um genetics for non-scientists class because I was a history major and we had to take a science, and it was I loved it because it was targeted to people for whom science wasn't the love of their life.
00:34:02.940 --> 00:34:04.539
So exactly, exactly.
00:34:04.700 --> 00:34:16.460
And you know, what's what's been really great for me is that there are a number of neuroscientists who have actually made the understanding of their of their field more accessible to folks who aren't scientists.
00:34:16.539 --> 00:34:23.179
Uh some really great writings on organizational trust and things of that nature, and explaining in really simple, really accessible terms.
00:34:23.339 --> 00:34:29.659
So that's been a I think a huge boost to people having a better appreciation of the neurobiological side of things.
00:34:29.980 --> 00:34:30.619
Yes.
00:34:31.019 --> 00:34:31.659
All right.
00:34:32.059 --> 00:34:35.420
So one more question before we wrap up.
00:34:35.900 --> 00:34:40.460
What would you tell your 18-year-old self about resiliency?
00:34:40.940 --> 00:34:41.579
Wow.
00:34:41.900 --> 00:34:42.539
Boy.
00:34:42.780 --> 00:34:48.139
There there's so many other topics that my 18-year-old self would need to hear.
00:34:49.740 --> 00:34:50.780
That's my pause.
00:34:50.940 --> 00:34:56.139
Uh, but I definitely, I definitely would tell my 18-year-old self a couple of things.
00:34:56.460 --> 00:35:00.219
One, I would say don't be in such a hurry to grow up.
00:35:00.619 --> 00:35:13.019
Take take more time and appreciate the things around you and enjoy the experience of being present much more uh than uh than he was interested in.
00:35:13.099 --> 00:35:15.099
He wanted to grow up and do all kinds of things.
00:35:15.179 --> 00:35:28.699
And I don't I don't I don't have a sense that he missed anything, but I just think that when we can appreciate mindfulness um even earlier in our development, it just benefits us uh uh later on.
00:35:28.940 --> 00:35:33.179
I I would also have told him absolutely learn how to breathe.
00:35:33.500 --> 00:35:35.900
Oh learn how to breathe, son.
00:35:35.980 --> 00:35:43.659
It's gonna be an incredibly beneficial skill as uh life shows up on a more regular and a more pronounced basis.
00:35:43.900 --> 00:35:45.420
That is a great one.
00:35:45.659 --> 00:35:47.019
Yeah, absolutely.
00:35:47.420 --> 00:36:00.460
I think I speaking for myself, that is something I wish I could tell my 18-year-old self, and I bet a lot of folks would, just knowing how much breathing and focusing on my breathing has helped in my journey.
00:36:00.780 --> 00:36:01.980
Yeah, absolutely.
00:36:02.219 --> 00:36:03.179
So all right.
00:36:03.340 --> 00:36:06.780
So as we wrap up, Leroy, how can people reach you?
00:36:07.099 --> 00:36:14.380
Uh they can reach me uh uh certainly at my uh web web address, which is uh consulthomson.com.
00:36:14.539 --> 00:36:15.019
Pretty simple.
00:36:15.179 --> 00:36:15.740
Consult.
00:36:15.820 --> 00:36:16.940
There are two T's in the middle.
00:36:17.019 --> 00:36:21.900
I always have to tell people there's a T on the end of Consult and a T at the beginning of Thompson.
00:36:22.059 --> 00:36:29.740
Uh I also have another website uh for the work I do in diversity, equity, and inclusion, which is Thompson Speaks on DEI.
00:36:30.059 --> 00:36:39.820
Um, either place I can be access and certainly uh would enjoy uh, you know, opportunities to spread this knowledge with folks and to work with them in this capacity.
00:36:39.980 --> 00:36:59.179
And so again, Mani, appreciate what you have done with your experiences uh and how you are transforming people's lives just by making them aware of the fact that uh no matter what has happened to us, there is the capacity within us uh to bring something beautiful, something rich, and something uh valuable out of it.
00:36:59.340 --> 00:37:02.619
So thank you so much for being a part of this movement, if you will.
00:37:02.860 --> 00:37:03.099
Yeah.
00:37:03.179 --> 00:37:04.460
Well, these issues.
00:37:04.940 --> 00:37:05.900
Thank you for saying that.
00:37:05.980 --> 00:37:10.219
And thank you, Leroy, for being a guest on this podcast.
00:37:10.380 --> 00:37:15.019
I'm I definitely want to have you back for another episode, so we're gonna plan that.
00:37:15.260 --> 00:37:18.139
Um, this has been a fabulous conversation.
00:37:18.380 --> 00:37:22.380
And thanks to our listeners, and we will talk to you soon.
00:37:23.099 --> 00:37:24.460
Thank you for listening.
00:37:24.699 --> 00:37:28.059
I hope you got as much out of this conversation as I did.
00:37:28.300 --> 00:37:39.740
So if you'd like to learn more about me, Mania Chilinsky, I work with organizations to help understand how to create environments where people can thrive after difficult life experiences.
00:37:39.980 --> 00:37:42.380
And I do this through talks and consulting.
00:37:42.619 --> 00:37:57.179
I'm a survivor of mass violence, and I use my experience to help leaders learn about resiliency, compassion, and trauma-sensitive leadership, to build strategies to enable teams to thrive and be engaged amidst difficulty and turmoil.
00:37:57.340 --> 00:38:11.500
If this is something you want to learn more about, visit my website, www.moniachilinsky.com, email me at mania at maniachilinsky, or stop by my social media on LinkedIn and Twitter.
00:38:11.740 --> 00:38:12.699
Thanks so much.
