The Imagination Gap, Regenerative Business, and What Is Enough? with Ximena Servin

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Hello, hello, hello, everybody.
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Welcome back to Notes from the New World and welcome to the show Jimena Servin.
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Hello, thank you for having me.
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So excited to be here and talk to you.
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We already have great combos.
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We have such good conversations.
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We were actually roommates at a retreat earlier this summer in Greece.
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And I had known you online.
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We had been circling each other in the online world forever.
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And then actually basically living with you for a week, I was like, oh, we need to have a conversation.
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We have lots and lots to talk about, like the imagination gap in business, running your business like an ecosystem, capitalist realism.
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Like we have such a grab bag of goodies here.
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I'm like, what should we reach into the mystery box first?
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And actually, the one that I want to start with is the imagination gap.
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So something that I realized in my whole like entrepreneurial online journey is when you are flooded with dystopian headlines like we are seeing right now, right?
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We are flooded with AI dominating the world, climate crisis, economic downturn.
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You start to shrink and you're just like, I guess this is a world now and it sucks and this is it.
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And like I'm just gonna have to fight my way through this hellscape.
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And we've all felt that.
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And if you're a business owner, you start to wonder like, what am I really doing here?
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Like, what's the point of this?
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I did a post last year where I was talking about how selling at that point in time felt like selling cotton candy in a war zone.
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I was like, what am I doing?
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Like, this is ridiculous that I even have an online business and a personal brand.
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And I started to feel very defeated of just like, all right, I think I think we're done here.
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And what I realized is I was lacking imagination.
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So I would love to hear from you.
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Like, what is the imagination gap and why is it so important, especially right now?
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Absolutely.
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Yeah, I think what you felt there is something that we we all tend to feel at times.
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Even if you're working at something quote unquote purposeful, it it comes to a point where it just feels pointless because the crisis is so big that it's just like, well, like my grain of sand is literally moving nothing.
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And that tends to stop us.
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And what that's called, there's a name for it.
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It's called reflective impotence where we we know so much and we're so connected to all of the crises constantly, where yeah, we know a lot and we can think a lot about how everything's wrong, but then we don't know what to do about it.
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So we're just we we come into freeze mode.
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And whenever we try to think of new solutions or new ways that we could approach this, or how we could, you know, engage ourselves more in saving the world, also, quote unquote, we we smash our heads into a wall because we we are pulled back by the same system that won't allow us to just look beyond what the system is already, what it is already.
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So that's the imagination gap.
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We know that something has to change.
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We like to think about ways to do it, but the system is so like entangled that we can't really see beyond it.
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Um, because whenever we try to imagine new ways of doing it, we start to question but how would that work?
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How can I sustain that?
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How will that get money?
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How will I make it work in time?
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How will people be involved if they also need money?
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Uh so actually the the imagination gap ultimately comes back to what pulls you back into that imagination gap is capitalism.
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No surprises there.
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Um, but it's very interesting how how that happens and how it's so enmeshed in our psyche and in our society that that we can't really see our ways out of it.
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So the big gap here is how can we exercise our imaginations to actually open a little crack between that crisis and see some light that guides us through somewhere else.
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It's so interesting that we're having this conversation right now because when I launched Supernova last year, that's what I called it was like a thinking lab, and I almost called it an imagination lab.
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And I was like, that sounds a little like Disney or like Pixar, but I was like, it is like look at what Disney built.
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You know what I mean?
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Like they were insane with like the concepts and the theme parks and all the different ways that they do things.
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And I actually learned that the way Disney's creative team operates, I could be completely off here, so don't quote me, but they have like different rooms.
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So they have a room where they have the imagination people thinking of like the most insane things you've ever heard of.
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Then they leave the room and then they go to the like practical room of like, okay, what is it actually gonna take to do this?
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Like, how much money do we need?
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Where does this need to go?
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How many people need to be involved?
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And then you have like kind of a feedback, like pushback room that will challenge you and be like, this makes no sense.
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Who's gonna buy it?
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What's happening here?
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And I actually really liked to think of that for our own frameworks of like thinking really big.
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I've seen someone call this like galaxy brain, ecosystem brain, and like I don't remember the other one, ground brain or something.
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I'm like, I do think we need to kind of move ourselves through all these things, but for some reason we get stuck in the practical, we get stuck in room two and three, practical and real.
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We don't ever jump to imagination.
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And what I've noticed about myself, and I'm curious for you, is I can get really imaginative, and then I'm just like it almost like deflates from like, nope, but like I can't do that by myself.
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Like, that's a big ask, that's a lot of responsibility, that's gonna take years and years and years.
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Like, I don't have the patience for that.
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I don't even know if I have the bandwidth for that.
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And then that's when I kind of just revert to like, all right, well, I'm just gonna be a personal brand and build my business.
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And even though I feel this inkling, like, no, I want to change something, it's it's obvious, so we can't do it by ourselves.
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So, why do you think we're stuck in this loop where we want to change, but we're not really taking the steps to do it?
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First, that's so cool about the Disney Labs.
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Uh, it's literally how the imagination machine works.
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It's like just imagining something crazy and working backwards from it.
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And okay, what do I need to build around this?
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Like, what do I need to change about reality to make that happen?
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So we can dive into that a bit more later about how imagination actually works.
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But yeah, first, why?
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Why can't we even imagine?
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And I for me, it's two things.
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First, it's I I've been thinking a lot lately about how our ability to live and think within paradoxes and things that are incongruent and surreal or unrealistic is literally what's gonna save us.
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We we get stuck in this, like what is real and what's unrealistic, or what is left and what is right, what is good and what is bad, that we can't move past that.
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And a very clear example of this, but we can extrapolate that to almost anything, is our governments.
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Why do they get stuck in the same fight and never actually seem to make something that's actually meaningful for humanity?
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Is because it's either a left or a leftist or a rightist um policy.
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Um, so whenever you're talking to someone about politics, they're very quick to dismiss whatever it is you're saying as it as it being left or right.
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And then the governments do the same.
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If there was this very nice policy or movement that was working, they will let it go because the left did it and now it's the right.
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So our inability to live like in the in the gray areas and grasp our minds around things being true, but then another thing that looks like it's the opposite also being true keeps us from from moving past that.
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Um, so first I think we need to be able to grasp incongruence and paradoxes, because our world is very paradoxical, and how that translates to to business and to making economy work is okay.
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We're we know capitalism sucks.
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We all hate it here, we want to get off, but we can't just like stop because the wheel is turning and we still need money to to move things around.
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And if we want to make something good, we we're gonna need money to do it.
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But then how are we gonna get that money if it's not from like the evil hell of capitalism and corporate?
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Um, and what we need to accept is that yeah, there we are a generation that needs to hold complexity and paradox because we are weaving our way from one system and one world to another.
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Um and then the the other part, which gives into that too, is capitalist realism, which is essentially the the notion that capitalism is so embedded and so entangled into our minds, our systems, our business, basically all of our reality, that we literally can't imagine beyond that.
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And we have started to seen it as part of nature, and there's theories around that that have made themselves work around capitalism, um, explaining how nature is competitive and how it's save yourself and don't save the rest.
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When that is the reality that we constructed, but that's not the real world.
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So imagination is what will be able to crack that little crack that will allow us to see the real and not the reality that we built.
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Yeah, the the trap, like you said, is this is how I think of it, at least, is like take a moment to imagine a new world.
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But in order to imagine, like I need space, I need time, I need to talk to people, I need different points of view, I need a moment to wrap my head around things.
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And while I'm doing all that, I still have to pay the bills, right?
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The electricity is still running, the water still needs to get paid for, I need to eat.
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And so, under those circumstances, you can start to almost push this whole imagination um strategy to the side because you're like, I can do that when I have more money, I can do that when I save enough to take enough time off.
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And it's such a conundrum because I took a sabbatical last summer.
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I took two months off.
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And I remember thinking, like, this is my time.
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Like, I'm about to imagine the craziest new things and like create a whole new world.
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And what I failed to realize is I was by myself.
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So it is very hard to do anything creative or big or move the needle when you're just alone.
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And I realized this would have been better if I had even like four more people with me and we all were working on something together and we had a plan, right?
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It was like, let's meet weekly, everyone come with your craziest ideas, let's like keep building and building and building, but we would all need to be on the same page.
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And what happens is that almost seems impossible, right?
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It's not, but it almost does because of what you're saying.
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Like, oh, well, I can't take off work, I don't have that much PTO.
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Well, I'm in the middle of a launch.
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I can't take off those five days, you know, or I can't take off the whole two months that you have.
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Um, and that's the reality, right?
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Is some people are like, I can't do that because my financial situation does not allow me to do that.
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And maybe I'm thinking of this too binary of you have to save and take off and and you know, be able to have space to imagine.
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So I'm curious your take on that because that's the that's the biggest stop sign I see is like, yeah, I would love to do all that.
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And also, like, when is that gonna happen?
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Just because the bills do have to get paid.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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I I've I've been I I'm constantly am in that conundrum myself because it's like, well, I would love to have, you know, my my little farm where I'm connected to my food and all of the elements, and then I can think about a better world and do it, but that's not reality.
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Like we we're here, we're in this capitalist world.
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Um, so my answer to that that I give myself, and that's what I tell my clients and just people in general, is that we have to give ourselves more grace as individuals and as a generation on knowing that it's okay, that's reality.
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We we have to be able to create even the the smallest spaces to one, take that creative time to to imagine other worlds and have creative and imaginative practices, which we'll talk about later, but also you don't have to revamp your whole business and your life to make it you know regenerative or super impactful from the ground up.
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You can't, because that's also impossible.
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It's not it's not realistic for everyone to do that, and it's very hard, and that's why I got into this because it's very hard to do it nowadays.
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So we have to give ourselves more grace in one, acknowledging that that it's it's very hard, and that's okay, it's hard for everyone, and it will be hard.
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But two, I think we can also use that hardship to empower ourselves in knowing that we are the generation that will need to balance out this two worlds, the world of our wishful need and wishful thinking of knowing that we can do better and just doing the best we can with what we have.
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And then what we're doing is building each time, we're building bigger paths for generations to come to keep walking them and making them bigger and walking them for longer.
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And I think that's a mentality that even the it's also what happens with this pullback that we get from capitalism.
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We it's very hard to have long-term thinking.
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I call it cathedral thinking.
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So, you know, you you go to the Sagrada Familia in Barcelona or whatever huge cathedral or huge um monument, and it's like, yeah, it took them 200 years or 300 years to build this, or the Sagrada Familia, it's taking them longer than that.
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And you're like, wow, these people really they they had a vision, they knew they would never see it to completion, yet they did it, and people were employed to do it, and they built and they built not never seeing it completed because they knew someone else would take it on, and they didn't really care that they wouldn't see it completed.
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And I think that's what we have to think of right now: cathedral thinking.
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We won't see the system.
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I'm sure we won't see it.
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I would love to say we will.
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We won't see the system and the utopia that we want to see probably in our lifetimes, but that doesn't exempt us from not trying our best and doing what we can with what we have.
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I literally was just looking up my email because I wrote an entire email, I think last year, about being cathedral builders.
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And I think I used Sagrada Familia as well.
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So I was like, obviously, we're on the we're on the same page about this because that's that's I think let me like gather my thoughts here.
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That's I think the issue right now with the like the space you and I are in, at least for me, I'll speak for myself, is like online coaching, personal branding, building an online presence, you know, standing out amongst the fragmented attention, um, you know, hooks and retention and comprehension, attention economy, like all these things.
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And it what I'm realizing in the especially in the last six months is like it keeps us very trapped in that short-term thinking where most people can only think like one to three months ahead of like, I just need this launch to go well.
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I need my rebrand to roll out, and then I'll think about that.
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I need to complete my membership, you know, fulfill that, and then I'll get to the next thing.
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And what I'm starting to realize is like, if yeah, you want to build the Sagrata Familia of the world we're in, you might have to sacrifice some things that you've spent a lot of time building for yourself.
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So if we use the example of the cathedral builders, it's not let's make, I don't know how many people worked on it.
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Let's say a hundred people.
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If all those a hundred people were like, never mind, we're gonna stop building the Sagrata Familia and I'm gonna go build my own little like whatever, my own little structure, and I'm gonna get my bricks and like buy, like, see later.
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And now all of a sudden you have like a hundred people with their own little baby churches, right?
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It's like, wait, you could all have just combined those bricks and made the Sagrata Familia.
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But I don't think, I don't think the industry, especially with coaching and personal branding and and influencing and all these things, it's not set up that way.
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It's actually set up like to be a mini corporation, stand out against the competition, continue to scale, figure out a model where you don't have to be present 24-7 and trade your time for money.
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And so it's really hard.
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Like, I think a lot of these things sound amazing in theory of like, yes, of course, like you said, of course you want a better world.
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Of course, we want policy change.
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Of course, I want to see people not having to work when they're 75 to like have food and actually take care of themselves.
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And this is the conundrum I'm stuck in is like, I might have to decenter myself and my personal brand in order to think as a collective.
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And I don't even know if we're thinking about that on a bigger scale or how you influence people to kind of decenter themselves and a personal brand when that's the way a lot of us have been able to access wealth.
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You know, like that's how a lot of people can take care of their families and give back and do what they need to do is building their own business because they can kind of, you know, quote unquote take matters into their own hands.
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And so, yeah, that's the spiral I'm in.
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And I would love to just hear your thoughts on all that.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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I think we we might not know how to do it yet, but I do see an itch, hence us talking about it.
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People are starting to get an itch for community work.
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Like the, you know, the solo founder hero and um CEO persona is is, I feel like it's not the thing anymore.
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Even if that it is what that is what we're doing in practice, we're starting to get an itch of wanting to connect.
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Or I see it a lot in, you know, when you see someone talking about the same thing that you are, instead of the the reaction before used to be like, oh my God, it's I don't know, they're doing it better than me, or they're copying me, or they're gonna get to ahead to wherever before me because we have the same idea and they're gonna do it better.
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So I need to, I don't know, either change gears, do another thing, or do it before them, or we instead of just looking to that person and be like, hey, we're talking about the same things, this is so cool.
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Why don't we like feed on each other and and make it more abundant?
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And where that comes down to, and and it also comes back to our cathedral ways of thinking, is that um same as we want like instant feedback and gratification and returns for what we do, including our business, including you know, cheap hits of dopamine with social media and just everything in our liquid postmodern society, we want quick, we want we want reward that's very tangible and very quick.
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What used to happen before is if you saw someone talking about the same thing you're talking about, because it happens, like we're not um, we are geniuses, but you know, there's so many new things under the sun.
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Um, when we see someone talking about the same things we are, before it used to be like, oh my god, they're either copying me, they're gonna get ahead before me, so I need to either change my thing or I don't know, be quicker, be more efficient, so I can get there wherever there is before them.
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Um, and now it's like you you look at someone that's doing the same thing you are, or having maybe a similar idea that you have.
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And what we're doing now is just looking at each other and reaching out and be like, hey, we're talking about similar things.
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How about we connect or collaborate, or what are your thoughts on this?
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And I feel that's like a first indication that we're going the the right way.
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Yes, we still we're still figuring out how to put it in practice in a way that that works tangibly for a business, which there are a lot of ways to do that.
00:21:51.279 --> 00:22:21.359
Like there's a lot of economic models that are more cooperative based than the the solo founder and very High hierarchical is that a word, hierarchical um model of business, and we're starting to see ones that are more collective and more horizontal, where everyone can give what they bring to the table, and it will just create more abundance.
00:22:21.759 --> 00:22:36.960
And so the more complex model of thinking that we have to lean on in here is that businesses are like ecosystems, or at least they should be, and the economy should be as well.
00:22:37.279 --> 00:22:45.599
In an environment, whatever ecosystem you look at, there's no competition, as science was once saying a lot.
00:22:45.839 --> 00:22:46.960
There's cooperation.
00:22:47.119 --> 00:22:50.480
The thing is that cooperation is sometimes not linear.
00:22:50.720 --> 00:22:57.359
So some beings will not give directly to another being that will give directly back to them.
00:22:57.519 --> 00:23:04.000
They will give expecting nothing in return, but something will eventually come back.
00:23:04.079 --> 00:23:09.680
And that's how ecosystems work, and that's how the economy should work in theory.
00:23:10.000 --> 00:23:17.440
So it's the thing is the economy has put us in a very scarce mindset.
00:23:17.759 --> 00:23:24.799
It works on scarcity to create value, but there is no scarcity in the real.
00:23:25.680 --> 00:23:27.680
There's actually abundance.
00:23:28.240 --> 00:23:37.279
I love this because it goes back to a theory that like you actually can go farther together, right?
00:23:37.440 --> 00:23:44.240
Like you could compete, yes, and you could win and dominate and extract and get that top spot.
00:23:44.400 --> 00:23:47.279
And we hear this over and over and over again, right?
00:23:47.359 --> 00:23:58.480
Like, how many books do we need to read, podcasts do we need to listen to of people that have accumulated massive wealth, the top of their industry of their jobs, and they're like, I feel so empty.
00:23:58.640 --> 00:24:03.599
And it's like, yeah, because you did it alone and you did it in a probably dominating way.
00:24:03.759 --> 00:24:07.680
I was just at a cafe the other day, like eavesdropping on these kids sitting next to me.
00:24:07.759 --> 00:24:16.240
They were in med school, and they were talking about how their one of their professors is literally like the top doctorate.
00:24:16.400 --> 00:24:17.920
He's a doctor at Harvard.
00:24:18.079 --> 00:24:20.319
His wife is also a doctor at Harvard.
00:24:20.400 --> 00:24:23.200
They teach, they're like the tip top of their industry.
00:24:23.359 --> 00:24:26.799
And both of them were like, Yeah, we still feel like we have so much more to do.
00:24:26.960 --> 00:24:29.200
And they were both like, What else could you do?
00:24:29.279 --> 00:24:37.279
You're at like the most prestigious institution with the highest degree, teaching the highest level of education, recognized like awards.
00:24:37.519 --> 00:24:43.920
And I was like, exactly, like we we've learned this, even looking at how how billionaires act right now, right?
00:24:44.000 --> 00:24:51.920
Like, I don't think it's wild to look at what Elon Musk or Jeff Bezos or Mark Zuckerberg is doing because they've lost touch with reality.
00:24:52.079 --> 00:24:54.480
Like they don't know what's happening in reality.
00:24:54.640 --> 00:25:09.599
And when you think of what's happening in in their psyches, it's like, well, yeah, they can't enjoy just like chilling at the beach and going for a surf because they have created such a new reality for themselves that they have to uphold or else it all collapses.
00:25:09.759 --> 00:25:17.279
And this all brings me back to the collective regenerative business that you're talking about is this is my opinion.
00:25:17.440 --> 00:25:24.319
You can't want to be the next Elon Musk or Mark Zuckerberg or Jeff Bezos and also have a regenerative business.
00:25:24.559 --> 00:25:26.319
I don't think it works like that.
00:25:26.480 --> 00:25:28.160
You can lead the movement, right?
00:25:28.319 --> 00:25:30.079
You can be someone that's like in charge.
00:25:30.160 --> 00:25:34.400
Like we also need leaders, we need torchbearers, we need people that are trailblazers.
00:25:34.640 --> 00:25:46.880
But I don't think if your goal is like, I want to be Instagram famous, I want to have a top-selling, you know, book that has my name all over the world, you're centering yourself.
00:25:46.960 --> 00:25:52.880
And I think when you center yourself and you become the center of your universe, everyone else is competition.
00:25:53.039 --> 00:25:56.240
And that's when the whole thing starts of they're using my words.
00:25:56.400 --> 00:25:58.079
I just posted that reel the other day.
00:25:58.160 --> 00:25:59.119
They're copying me.
00:25:59.279 --> 00:26:01.839
And this is rampant in the online coaching industry, right?
00:26:01.920 --> 00:26:04.079
Like I've even felt this even in the last six months.
00:26:04.160 --> 00:26:06.480
I'm like, do I need to start trademarking everything?
00:26:06.640 --> 00:26:10.400
And, you know, like taking ownership of my intellectual property.
00:26:10.640 --> 00:26:18.079
I'm still kind of in a bind with that because I'm like, is that me like being extractive and possessive and like kind of colonizer mindset?
00:26:18.319 --> 00:26:21.599
Or is it just being a savvy business owner?
00:26:21.759 --> 00:26:32.319
And so I want to talk a little bit about what do you think under a regenerative business where there is more collective thinking, more ecosystem thinking?
00:26:32.559 --> 00:26:34.400
A, what are the success metrics?
00:26:34.559 --> 00:26:42.319
Because I don't think it can be stripe screenshots and what your substack is ranking, and what chart number are you on the podcast charts?
00:26:42.400 --> 00:26:44.960
Like, what success metrics are there?
00:26:45.119 --> 00:26:49.759
And also what trade-offs are there to running a regenerative business?
00:26:50.240 --> 00:27:02.880
Yeah, it's so interesting that we that we always come back to Elon Musk as the epitome of post-capitalist uh thought.
00:27:03.039 --> 00:27:06.880
Because yeah, they it's so clear that they've just lost touch.
00:27:06.960 --> 00:27:16.559
And I think it's the um the proof that what we have as reality of how the systems work is not reality.
00:27:16.640 --> 00:27:28.079
And I actually sometimes even love it, although I obviously hate it when these guys are like so crazy in the things that they're doing and and saying.
00:27:28.400 --> 00:27:35.359
Cause it's like no doubt for anyone anymore that this is nuts, that it's not working.
00:27:35.599 --> 00:27:43.359
Like, I'm I'm just gonna be go off track before I go into the the trade-offs of regenerative business and the metrics.
00:27:43.599 --> 00:28:02.079
Um, to to give a notion on Elon Musk, for example, he always makes me think of Wally, like the movie where you know the the earth ended and they shipped us all off into these spaceships where we're all feeding through tubes or whatever and just fat and we are not moving.
00:28:02.400 --> 00:28:07.759
And that is literally the example of how these guys think.
00:28:08.000 --> 00:28:28.799
I've I've had conversations with tech bros telling me that my thinking that capitalism and the economic model is wrong simply because it can't be sustained with the resources that we have that are tangible and we we see them and we can measure them in the planet.
00:28:29.039 --> 00:28:33.920
And their answer is literally, oh, but that's okay because we are learning how to go to space.
00:28:34.000 --> 00:28:40.400
And then once the earth regenerates itself after we kill it, we can just come back.
00:28:40.559 --> 00:28:57.039
So that's the the way these people think it's like capital, you know, we we like to think that, well, the economy eventually they will realize that it's unsustainable because we'll just run out of the resources and the earth will die.
00:28:57.119 --> 00:28:58.559
And then what will they do?
00:28:58.720 --> 00:29:00.720
Well, literally, that's what they're thinking.
00:29:00.960 --> 00:29:08.160
Capital will survive the earth and it will, and we'll go to space and then we'll come back and it will regenerate.
00:29:08.480 --> 00:29:44.880
So if that's not an example of capitalist economy not ever going to work if we want to survive in this beautiful life that we have on earth where we can, you know, touch grass, swim in the ocean, have rain, laugh, it's delicious food that's not uh astronaut food that's dry, you know, all of these human earthly pleasures, if we want to have those, we it can't be under that um capitalist thinking of being the most successful person out there, like Elon Musk wants to do.
00:29:45.039 --> 00:29:48.240
So that's can I can I interrupt really quick because I have a question?
00:29:48.400 --> 00:29:52.799
When when you have those conversations with the people like that, like, oh, well, we can just go to space.
00:29:52.880 --> 00:29:56.240
Like, look, we're on Mars and we're gonna be able to go and whatever.
00:29:56.400 --> 00:29:58.720
Look, Katy Perry went last year, you know?
00:29:58.799 --> 00:30:02.559
It's like we we we start to think like, oh, maybe we are not that far off.
00:30:02.720 --> 00:30:11.920
But here's my question that I don't know if they've told you this, like, what is their end goal when they're saying, yeah, we're just gonna use up all the capital and then go to space?
00:30:12.000 --> 00:30:13.279
It's like, what, like for what?
00:30:13.440 --> 00:30:15.680
To buy a yacht to to fly private?
00:30:15.759 --> 00:30:18.480
Like, what is what are they working towards?
00:30:18.640 --> 00:30:20.799
Like, have you had that conversation with them?
00:30:21.039 --> 00:30:39.519
Yes, and and they're it's a great question because it's that's when you know you're not having the same conversations, because the I mean, you're not, yeah, you're not having the same conversation in your mind, because these people, for them, the ultimate goal is just to win at accumulation, it's to win.
00:30:39.680 --> 00:30:41.839
They won, they won capitalism.
00:30:42.079 --> 00:30:47.359
You you killed Earth and people, and you went to space and you won.
00:30:47.519 --> 00:30:50.720
Yay! And now you're alone in space, you know.
00:30:50.960 --> 00:30:54.720
Well, if that's your your win, then you do you, bro.
00:30:55.039 --> 00:31:12.720
But for the most rest of us, because I know it's obviously the majority of humanity that want to live nice, happy, healthy, fulfilled, naturally lives, we just don't know how to, or we even don't know what we don't know.
00:31:12.880 --> 00:31:22.319
Um, and we see these in the there's a literal correlation between like mental health issues and depression and how the economy has grown.
00:31:22.640 --> 00:31:40.799
Um, and what that speaks to is that even if we're not having, you know, this conversation that we're having right now, questioning the system, we know like in our soul that something is wrong when you get up every day and you're working just so someone else can accumulate profit and go to space.
00:31:41.119 --> 00:31:44.559
Um that shrinks your soul.
00:31:44.640 --> 00:31:48.160
Like you, you that's how a lot of depression comes.
00:31:48.319 --> 00:31:50.400
It's just you know the world is wrong.
00:31:50.559 --> 00:31:52.720
So you don't want to be engaged in it.
00:31:52.799 --> 00:32:00.720
But since you don't know how to engage yourself in it in another way, then you get depressed and and you freeze and you can't move anymore.
00:32:00.880 --> 00:32:10.799
So a lot of what this work that we're doing and this conversations that we're having is doing is just even putting that conversation out there, that it could be possible.
00:32:11.039 --> 00:32:18.240
It could be possible for it to be possible if we at least question it and start thinking about how else we could do it.
00:32:18.400 --> 00:32:19.920
Will it work right now?
00:32:20.160 --> 00:32:20.720
I don't know.
00:32:20.880 --> 00:32:28.960
Probably not to the best that it could work for the next generation so far, cathedral building, but we still need to do it.
00:32:29.039 --> 00:32:30.640
Like we're we're still here.
00:32:30.960 --> 00:32:33.599
So I don't know if you have anything to say on that.
00:32:33.759 --> 00:32:41.200
If not, I can go to the like the core trade-off and what we're uh measuring in regenerative business.
00:32:41.519 --> 00:32:46.880
Yeah, I think I'm gonna I'm gonna plant this question so we can come back to it.
00:32:47.119 --> 00:33:05.440
But if we were wanting to persuade these, you know, space uh astronaut pursuit dudes about a regenerative business or not killing off the entire earth to go to space and then eventually come back, like what are actual ways we could do that?
00:33:05.599 --> 00:33:10.400
Because for me, storytelling and media is what changes people's minds.
00:33:10.480 --> 00:33:15.759
Like, it's not sitting down and debating, it's not arguing, it's not being like, oh, you fucking idiot.
00:33:15.839 --> 00:33:16.720
Like that's not gonna happen.
00:33:16.799 --> 00:33:18.880
Like, that's not how you see change.
00:33:19.039 --> 00:33:21.839
Like, I do think a lot of it is imagination and storytelling.
00:33:22.000 --> 00:33:29.920
So that's something we can come back to, but it's something I definitely want to cover is like, how can we collectively start to be like, what the hell is going on here?
00:33:30.000 --> 00:33:31.759
And can we turn this ship around?
00:33:32.079 --> 00:33:32.720
Beautiful.
00:33:32.880 --> 00:33:34.720
Yes, yes, we'll come back to that.
00:33:35.039 --> 00:33:42.160
So in regenerative business, and first let's just define what regenerative business actually means.
00:33:42.319 --> 00:33:45.359
It's just there's been a lot of talk about sustainability.
00:33:45.920 --> 00:33:51.279
Um, but sustainability, what it does, and it's great, yeah, let's be sustainable.
00:33:51.599 --> 00:33:59.119
Um, but it just makes sure, makes sure that whatever you're doing, you can keep doing it with the resources that you have.
00:33:59.279 --> 00:34:04.720
Uh, but it doesn't really care for anything, it doesn't have a positive impact.
00:34:04.880 --> 00:34:07.200
It just neutralizes the impact.
00:34:07.519 --> 00:34:22.079
So regeneration and regenerative business or regenerative practices, what they do is with whatever it is they're doing, give more than it took from nature here to life, really.
00:34:22.320 --> 00:34:29.440
So I like to think of regenerative business as a business that will give more to all life than it took from it.
00:34:29.599 --> 00:34:34.559
And that includes yours, the founder, you person that is listening to this.
00:34:35.199 --> 00:34:46.719
And yes, there are some trade-offs to that because you can't have a regenerative business with the mentality that you will be the top regenerative entrepreneur in the world.
00:34:47.280 --> 00:34:51.519
Okay, so first leave that behind.
00:34:51.760 --> 00:35:07.119
Um, because we need to see regenerative business as you need to leave growth behind, and you need to start looking at it as flourishing, and you can't optimize for both at scale.
00:35:07.199 --> 00:35:10.000
So we need to choose one, and here we're choosing flourishing.
00:35:10.320 --> 00:35:14.800
So with the first, that has to be very extractive just by nature.
00:35:14.880 --> 00:35:18.239
You can't grow infinitely without extracting infinitely.
00:35:18.480 --> 00:35:31.760
Um, and you're with that, you're first thinking short-term in reality, if you're not trying to go to space, because most likely you won't do that, you'll stay here on Earth and face the consequences.
00:35:32.000 --> 00:35:38.800
Um that just gives us, yeah, short-term prosperity, but long-term collapse.
00:35:38.960 --> 00:35:44.159
And with regenerative business, yes, you will grow to sufficiency.
00:35:44.400 --> 00:36:06.639
And for that, you need to know what sufficiency is and be realistic with that, and know what it is that you want and actually need for your life, and think about that for a minute, and align your values and practices for that and internalize those costs so that it's sustainable and that it's aligned with the values and it's smaller.
00:36:06.800 --> 00:36:26.960
So, what that looks like is there does need to be a cap that you can grow up until that cap and then it will be balanced, and you can just create a loop, like a circular loop of business, be it of materials or services, that will continue to feed it without needing to extract more.
00:36:27.119 --> 00:36:37.199
So there's a lot of ways to do that, and the metrics will be different because in the you know, in macroeconomy, it won't be the GDP.
00:36:37.679 --> 00:36:38.880
That doesn't matter.
00:36:38.960 --> 00:36:52.159
Uh, there's, I think the best example for that will be if the GDP um grew because there was a boom in the pharmaceutical industry, well, that just means that a lot of people were sick.
00:36:52.400 --> 00:36:54.960
So what are we measuring then?
00:36:55.199 --> 00:36:56.559
So we won't be measuring that.
00:36:56.639 --> 00:37:01.760
We will be measuring actual well-being in the macro and in the micro scale.
00:37:02.079 --> 00:37:15.360
What about for online entrepreneurs, where so much of our success and how we create social proof and credibility and attract people is how much money we make, right?
00:37:15.440 --> 00:37:32.800
We can't we can't deny that it is very attractive when you see someone have a six-figure launch or that they're working 20 hours a week while making 50k in sales, or they could finally upgrade their house and live in this beautiful place by the water and you know, grow everything organic.
00:37:32.960 --> 00:37:38.159
And it's like the Pinterest dream that we all have, we all have our own Pinterest board, right?
00:37:38.239 --> 00:37:39.599
Of like, this is what I want.
00:37:39.840 --> 00:37:42.320
And usually what we want costs more money.
00:37:42.480 --> 00:37:44.559
And it's usually not a big leap, right?
00:37:44.719 --> 00:37:47.679
It starts small, and then I'll use myself as an example, right?
00:37:47.760 --> 00:37:52.239
It's like, okay, I'm used to being really scrappy with how I travel.
00:37:52.400 --> 00:37:55.360
I'm okay with getting the back seat, middle seat, who cares?
00:37:55.519 --> 00:37:56.400
Like, doesn't matter.
00:37:56.559 --> 00:37:59.039
I'll live in this apartment, it costs this much, who cares?
00:37:59.119 --> 00:38:01.519
I'm okay with sleeping on this type of bed.
00:38:01.760 --> 00:38:04.239
And then you're like, no, I want to be comfortable.
00:38:04.320 --> 00:38:05.360
I want a nicer bed.
00:38:05.440 --> 00:38:06.559
I want a nicer place.
00:38:06.719 --> 00:38:08.320
I want the apartment with sunlight.
00:38:08.400 --> 00:38:09.840
I want to live in a nice city.
00:38:10.000 --> 00:38:13.920
And actually, I do want a nicer seat on the plane so I can enjoy my plane ride.
00:38:14.000 --> 00:38:22.800
So all of a sudden, they call this lifestyle creep in economics, where you just start to slowly inflate or lifestyle inflation, where you just start to inflate your lifestyle.
00:38:22.960 --> 00:38:25.760
And you're not, it's not big jumps, usually, right?
00:38:25.840 --> 00:38:32.639
It's like incremental where all of a sudden, year over year, you're like, I am paying way more for my apartment than I was when I was 25.
00:38:32.880 --> 00:38:37.519
I am spending way more money on clothing than when than when I was 18 years old.
00:38:37.679 --> 00:38:40.880
And it starts to feel like, well, yeah, because I'm an adult, right?
00:38:40.960 --> 00:38:42.239
We use this framing.
00:38:42.320 --> 00:38:42.880
I'm an adult.
00:38:42.960 --> 00:38:44.480
I should live in a nicer place.
00:38:44.639 --> 00:38:51.039
I shouldn't have to sacrifice XYZ to live in this type of neighborhood or this bed or whatever it is.
00:38:51.360 --> 00:39:02.239
And what you're talking about, like essentially the art of enough, it's a concept I've been like trying to noodle on and like put together for so long because even the word enough triggers people.
00:39:02.480 --> 00:39:04.239
I ask this all the time on threads.
00:39:04.320 --> 00:39:09.280
I'll be like, what if we all knew our enough number and then could redistribute our income?
00:39:09.440 --> 00:39:12.800
And immediately people aren't even open to the conversation.
00:39:12.880 --> 00:39:17.519
It's ha, why don't you try living in California and see what happens then?
00:39:17.679 --> 00:39:19.599
In this economy, oh, really?
00:39:19.760 --> 00:39:21.679
Have you ever heard of property taxes?
00:39:21.760 --> 00:39:22.400
You know what I mean?
00:39:22.480 --> 00:39:27.599
Like there's no, there's no slowing down to be like, huh, I don't know what my enough number is.
00:39:27.760 --> 00:39:36.719
And I've sat with this and had to get really real with myself because there are times where I've looked at the income I'm making each month and been like, oh my God, I need to make way more money.
00:39:36.800 --> 00:39:38.239
Like this is not enough money.
00:39:38.400 --> 00:39:39.360
And then I sit with it.
00:39:39.440 --> 00:39:41.519
I'm like, well, Chelsea, what do you even spend on?
00:39:41.599 --> 00:39:42.559
Like, what do you like to do?
00:39:42.639 --> 00:39:46.079
I like to go outside, go on walks, get a matcha, go to the bookstore.
00:39:46.239 --> 00:39:54.559
Like, that doesn't cost$50,000 a month, which is like actually a real number I see floating around in my spaces to operate.
00:39:54.719 --> 00:39:57.119
And here's the thing: I don't have to do that either.
00:39:57.280 --> 00:40:01.440
There's a lot of people that will say, well, you know, try living in my apartment.
00:40:01.519 --> 00:40:02.960
That's$3,000 a month.
00:40:03.119 --> 00:40:05.599
You don't have to live in a$3,000 apartment a month.
00:40:05.679 --> 00:40:07.760
You just want to because it's more comfortable.
00:40:07.920 --> 00:40:16.159
And it's a really hard conversation to have because I think the way people internalize it is, oh, so you want me to scrape by?
00:40:16.400 --> 00:40:18.880
You want me to live with less and struggle?
00:40:19.119 --> 00:40:21.760
You want me to not enjoy the fruits of my labor.
00:40:21.840 --> 00:40:25.119
Like, that's how I think people are defending the stance.
00:40:25.199 --> 00:40:40.400
And I'm curious your thoughts on all that of like, why is it so hard to think of capping our income and and redistributing it while also understanding, like, yeah, I don't want to live, you know, on any shitty place with a bed that I can barely sleep and not take care of myself.
00:40:40.559 --> 00:40:42.880
You know, it's a really hard conversation.
00:40:43.199 --> 00:40:43.840
I love it.
00:40:43.920 --> 00:40:44.719
It is a very hard.
00:40:45.039 --> 00:40:47.119
I think money talk is always hard.
00:40:47.280 --> 00:40:50.719
Like, we we love money, but we hate to talk about it.
00:40:50.880 --> 00:40:52.079
Money drives us crazy.
00:40:52.239 --> 00:41:00.400
Money is so interesting, which is great that it came up because it will lead us to the storytelling um part of the conversation.
00:41:00.639 --> 00:41:10.239
But I think, look, if you know what your enough is, then that will include whatever life you mentioned you want to have.
00:41:10.400 --> 00:41:24.320
It can be living, you know, flying business and not coach and going for walks and this travels and having this home and living by the beach and be able to grow your own food.
00:41:24.480 --> 00:41:30.159
That's that's the dream, like the dream of the person we're talking about, or your dream, my dream.
00:41:30.559 --> 00:41:32.000
And yeah, cool.
00:41:32.159 --> 00:41:35.679
If you know your enough number for that, then great.
00:41:36.159 --> 00:42:03.679
But the gist of this conversation is sitting with the uncomfortableness of why you're not comfortable with your enough, because we can know, okay, if I want to live in this beach and have you know my little garden, and I don't know, have this sized home and have all of these perks and travel and be able to buy these things, cool.
00:42:04.000 --> 00:42:09.360
If that's your core happiness need, then that can be your enough.
00:42:09.440 --> 00:42:18.320
And then whatever you know gives you financial security for prosperity and for early retirement or whatever.
00:42:18.639 --> 00:42:31.360
But then when you get uncomfortable with that and you start being like, oh, but what if I want to like buy uh whatever, a yacht, or I want to travel the world for a year, then I won't have enough money, then I need more.
00:42:31.840 --> 00:42:36.800
And if you take yourself on that trip of okay, why do I want more?
00:42:36.960 --> 00:42:39.199
What do I need more for?
00:42:39.760 --> 00:42:53.360
And you come back to yourself and your actual needs, and I'm not talking about being, you know, scrapey here and having a uh below your means life and not living your best life.
00:42:53.519 --> 00:43:08.559
On the contrary, I truly believe that people doing cool regenerative work that actually has a nice positive impact in the world should have all the money they want to have the nice lives they want, whatever that life means.
00:43:08.800 --> 00:43:26.639
But then I'm also sure that that life, if you are actually aligned with your business values and the impact that you have, that life won't be to the extent of needing crazy amounts of things and accumulation of money as Elon Musk does.
00:43:26.880 --> 00:43:30.400
Because it's just it doesn't work that way.
00:43:30.559 --> 00:43:32.559
You're not building for that.
00:43:32.719 --> 00:43:38.239
If you're even interested in having a regenerative business, you don't want that type of accumulation.
00:43:38.559 --> 00:43:44.320
But that doesn't mean that you don't want a lot of money to live the life that you want.
00:43:44.719 --> 00:43:59.760
And what that leads us to is the story that we have about money, um, which is that money is evil somehow, and that it's what corrupts people, and it's what is moving everything towards.
00:44:00.960 --> 00:44:04.079
Decay and collapse and everything.
00:44:04.960 --> 00:44:11.199
But that's really just a story that has been told about money, which has fulfilled itself.
00:44:11.280 --> 00:44:13.360
Like it's a self-fulfilling prophecy.
00:44:13.519 --> 00:44:23.679
We we think money is evil, so now it's used for evil and it's being accumulated by evil people to do evil things by doing evil things.
00:44:24.400 --> 00:44:35.119
But it can not be that money, all it really is is a token of exchange for services and goods.
00:44:35.360 --> 00:44:38.079
Um, so if we can bring it, yeah.
00:44:38.400 --> 00:44:46.639
Sorry, I just want to jump in here really quick too, because that's that's the point I make a lot is when I say, Do you know your enough number?
00:44:46.800 --> 00:44:50.320
Your enough number could be$500,000 a year.
00:44:50.559 --> 00:44:53.760
Your enough number could be I do need$100,000 a month.
00:44:53.920 --> 00:45:02.079
But for some reason, the word enough is like synonymous with living below my means or like living on scraps.
00:45:02.239 --> 00:45:04.559
And I'm curious, like, where do you think that comes from?
00:45:04.639 --> 00:45:11.360
Like, do you have any tracing back to like that framing of like the word enough triggering scarcity?
00:45:11.840 --> 00:45:12.480
Yes.
00:45:12.800 --> 00:45:17.360
Um there's this amazing author, economist.
00:45:17.440 --> 00:45:19.119
He's called Charles Einstein.
00:45:19.280 --> 00:45:21.039
People, if you ever have the time, read him.
00:45:21.119 --> 00:45:22.000
He is amazing.
00:45:22.320 --> 00:45:40.239
He talks about sacred economics and basically walks through how um there's stories we have for humanity, for economy, for ourselves, and for money, and how we could transform um the meaning of money to transform our economies, in short.
00:45:40.559 --> 00:45:50.559
So there's two assumptions by which the economy we live in nowadays works from, like two central axioms.
00:45:50.719 --> 00:46:03.280
And one is that there is scarcity, and two, it's that it's that people need to constantly pursue maximizing our self-interests.
00:46:03.599 --> 00:46:17.280
But both of those things are false, they come from the story of capitalist economy, so they're only real, really, through our perception of reality, but it's not reality, they're assumptions.
00:46:17.360 --> 00:46:25.760
So there's an assumption of scarcity, and how the economy works right now is it makes something scarce so that it can resell it.
00:46:25.920 --> 00:46:28.719
So think any resource, really water.
00:46:28.960 --> 00:46:33.360
Do you have access right now to any natural source of water that you can drink?
00:46:33.599 --> 00:46:34.719
Probably not.
00:46:35.280 --> 00:46:38.159
But you have access to buying a bottle of water.
00:46:38.480 --> 00:46:40.079
Someone made it that way.
00:46:40.239 --> 00:46:44.320
People didn't, they survived and they weren't out looking for bottles of water.
00:46:44.559 --> 00:46:50.159
And now we think that that's just how it works, you know, like more for you is less for me.
00:46:50.480 --> 00:46:53.119
So that's that's how we operate.
00:46:53.199 --> 00:46:55.199
We're like, I need to have more.
00:46:55.360 --> 00:46:58.639
And if this person has more, then I will have less.
00:46:58.960 --> 00:47:14.000
And if that were true, if that math was equal, then we already have so much capital and wealth in the world that no one would be hungry, no one would die of hunger, or you know, but that that's not true.
00:47:14.159 --> 00:47:20.079
Yet we have enough food rotting in our fridges and in supermarkets.
00:47:20.639 --> 00:47:28.480
So there's abundance of money, abundance of food and of resources, but we're not distributing it.
00:47:28.880 --> 00:47:32.400
So, where does this scarcity mindset come from?
00:47:32.960 --> 00:47:44.480
And what we need to see is that as economy has grown, scarcity has also grown because economy is stemming from scarcity.
00:47:44.719 --> 00:47:52.000
So, whenever something becomes more scarce as a as a resource, then the economy will grow because they'll be able to sell it more.
00:47:52.239 --> 00:47:57.360
So we can literally directly link economic growth with scarcity growth.
00:47:57.519 --> 00:47:58.880
So that's how we got here.
00:47:59.039 --> 00:48:01.039
Yes, the economy has grown a lot.
00:48:01.280 --> 00:48:07.360
The GDP has grown a lot from most countries since I don't know, the last hundred years.
00:48:07.599 --> 00:48:09.679
So scarcity has also grown.
00:48:09.920 --> 00:48:15.599
Our cultural scarcity, our resource scarcity, all of that has grown.
00:48:15.840 --> 00:48:21.440
Most people, you know, we live in this constant level of anxiety of not having enough.
00:48:21.679 --> 00:48:24.880
And wealth scarcity confirms that, yeah, it's never enough.
00:48:24.960 --> 00:48:29.280
You know, we have things that save time, but we don't have enough time ever.
00:48:29.440 --> 00:48:36.480
We have, I don't know, cookers and Uber and um coffee machines and all these things that are saving us times.
00:48:36.639 --> 00:48:39.199
Uh, yet we don't have much time.
00:48:39.360 --> 00:48:43.679
So we're experiencing life from a scarcity mindset.
00:48:43.760 --> 00:48:49.840
And this is not like woo-woo things of, oh, you have to have like a more abundant mindset.
00:48:50.079 --> 00:49:02.960
No, you have to literally look at the world, see how many things there are there, and question why someone is selling you the story that there's scarcity when there isn't.
00:49:03.119 --> 00:49:10.320
Look at the amount of water there is still in the world, yet someone is selling it to you because they first poisoned it so they can sell it back.
00:49:10.480 --> 00:49:14.800
So there's this story of scarcity that we tell ourselves.
00:49:14.960 --> 00:49:38.480
So as soon as we realize that this infinitely growing economy is making scarcity on all levels of our lives grow as well, because it's what it needs to grow, then you can stop for a bit and think, okay, if I want this to grow endlessly, something will have to be made scarce.
00:49:38.719 --> 00:49:40.639
So why do I want to do that?
00:49:40.880 --> 00:50:10.400
Why don't I turn it around and realize that if my business is so abundant, not only that it meets my needs, but that it's giving back to the relationships that it's creating and to the consumers that it's impacting and to the people that I'm uh working from or the resources I'm taking from, there will be more abundance, and then I will be able to do it for longer by not making it grow infinitely.
00:50:10.639 --> 00:50:11.920
So that's the enough.
00:50:12.079 --> 00:50:19.119
The enough is knowing where abundance starts, and that's where economic growth actually stops.
00:50:20.159 --> 00:50:22.079
That is that is so fascinating.
00:50:22.159 --> 00:50:26.719
I feel like I'm gonna go top up on all this work from this specific economist.
00:50:29.199 --> 00:50:30.159
Wow, wow, wow.
00:50:30.400 --> 00:50:38.800
And I want to talk in a little bit, if we can, about some of the different economies, you know, circular and donut and gift, etc.
00:50:38.960 --> 00:51:00.320
But I I want to definitely talk about the storytelling element and imagination practices because, you know, a lot of what we're talking about again can trigger anxiety and doom and gloom and frustration and overwhelm where people are like, this is just too much, you know, like I don't even want to go and put my hand close to that because I'm just gonna get burned.
00:51:00.480 --> 00:51:02.239
And I don't want that to be the case.
00:51:02.400 --> 00:51:08.000
I want people to feel empowered that they can actually make a change with their storytelling, with their imagination.
00:51:08.079 --> 00:51:14.079
So, can you share some of the best strategies, practices, tips, anything you have to share with us today?
00:51:14.480 --> 00:51:15.440
Yeah, of course.
00:51:15.679 --> 00:51:38.320
I think for for storytelling, the the power of storytelling is as we've been talking about, what led us here is a story that we need economic endless growth and that humans are competitive and we need to fence for ourselves and we need to accumulate because if not, we won't be able to survive.
00:51:38.800 --> 00:51:50.320
That story is not real, it's not anchored in reality, it's just like a fabricated collective hallucination that we are all constantly agreeing on.
00:51:50.719 --> 00:51:59.920
So, likewise, we can collectively imagine and hallucinate another reality and that better fits what we want.
00:52:00.400 --> 00:52:04.079
And that is one through telling stories.
00:52:04.159 --> 00:52:09.760
There is telling different stories about how things could work or have worked.
00:52:10.159 --> 00:52:27.679
So if we're constantly hearing and telling the story that we need to accumulate and competitive things is what will get us there, and you know, this solo founder persona being super successful and they by themselves got to the top and have more than everyone.
00:52:27.840 --> 00:52:35.039
And if we keep seeing that as the success story, then that's what we will keep walking towards.
00:52:35.360 --> 00:52:59.440
So differently, if we start telling a story by doing it, um, of how we can have successful businesses that are more communal and are collective and are cooperative by doing them, and here will come the imagination part, then we will start walking towards them because we will start seeing them more.
00:52:59.599 --> 00:53:08.400
And when we see them as successful and we redefine that success, then we we will have something to work walk towards.
00:53:08.559 --> 00:53:21.360
We had this conversation on on why Elon Musk men of the world even exist, like what happened when they were little kids that led us to led them to even want that.
00:53:21.599 --> 00:53:27.599
And for that, we can just look at the stories that are told like today in the cinemas.
00:53:27.760 --> 00:53:33.199
It's you know, bad versus good, and there's something successful, and there's a hero.
00:53:33.360 --> 00:53:41.519
So we don't see a lot of communality and cooperation, and we don't see paradoxes, definitely, it's always good and bad.
00:53:41.840 --> 00:53:53.280
So it will definitely require more complex storytelling, but that's also hopeful in the way that things work work for good.
00:53:53.760 --> 00:53:57.280
And they exist, they're out there, we just need to tell them more.
00:53:57.440 --> 00:54:03.599
I feel like people just feel like they're not important and they are, they are important and they need um more light.
00:54:03.760 --> 00:54:13.199
There's amazing businesses, amazing projects out there doing working in communal ways that we couldn't even see feasible, and they're working.
00:54:13.440 --> 00:54:30.639
So telling those stories and telling your own stories of how your your call-up with someone else in a business actually worked and made your mind and your content more abundant, ultimately leading to your income being more abundant.
00:54:30.719 --> 00:54:32.320
That's a cool story to tell.
00:54:32.480 --> 00:54:37.840
You know, we we have this facade of, yeah, I did it myself, so that's why it's so successful.
00:54:38.079 --> 00:54:51.440
If we let that go and actually acknowledge that doing things together or doing things with more purpose is a cool new thing, then that's what the cool new thing will be.
00:54:51.599 --> 00:54:55.599
And the rest will have to get on board or just be not cool.
00:54:55.760 --> 00:54:57.119
And no one wants that.
00:54:57.840 --> 00:55:06.159
Um, so there's there's some strategies to actually foster your imagination and bring it into your business, but also your life.
00:55:06.400 --> 00:55:12.239
And the way I would approach it is start first with your life and then with your business.
00:55:12.480 --> 00:55:19.360
Because if you start imagining directly for your business, the wall will come before.
00:55:19.599 --> 00:55:29.119
So if we just do it for fun and then it becomes a practice, you'll be able to extrapolate that and bring it into any other practice and project that you have.
00:55:29.440 --> 00:55:38.800
Um, so we went into one at the beginning, which was with the Disney Disney Imagination Labs.
00:55:39.199 --> 00:55:41.440
Um, that's a great example of how it works.
00:55:41.519 --> 00:55:43.440
It's called counterfactual thinking.
00:55:43.599 --> 00:55:46.639
So, what you do is just imagine something.
00:55:46.880 --> 00:55:52.559
So let's say literally anything, a giraffe riding a bike.
00:55:52.960 --> 00:55:58.719
And then, yes, you will think, yeah, well, I can imagine that, but giraffes can't ride a bike.
00:55:58.960 --> 00:56:07.760
Let's think about that, let that thought go, and then be like, okay, in this world where where giraffes are riding bikes, what would need to happen?
00:56:08.079 --> 00:56:25.760
So there would be, there would need to be, I don't know, giraffes would have, would need to have this sort of locomotive ability to ride bikes, and then the roads would have to be clear of trees because if not, giraffes would not be able to bike past them.
00:56:25.920 --> 00:56:44.480
So you'll start following this train of thought of everything that would need to rearrange itself around your world where giraffes can ride bikes and just follow it and then do it again with another thing, and then have an actual imagination thought of something you want to do.
00:56:44.559 --> 00:56:52.639
Like, hey, how about I it would be very cool if I could do X thing in my business and do the same thing and follow it.
00:56:52.719 --> 00:57:04.480
And now you know how to let the wall go of being like, well, that can happen, and you're like, okay, whatever, you already practiced imagining uh GFs riding bikes.
00:57:04.639 --> 00:57:14.079
So follow that train of thought and then start a log of evidence in the world of how that could be true.
00:57:14.320 --> 00:57:27.599
So if within your train of thought you landed in some very specific, I don't know, economic rearrangements or rearrangements in your own business that would need to happen, look them up.
00:57:27.840 --> 00:57:44.480
Look like if that even exists or someone has made it happen, or start your brain will automatically start doing it, but start being more aware and actually note it down of whenever you see something that resembles this new world that you envisioned.
00:57:44.960 --> 00:57:50.239
That is a great, great tool to practice in your imagination.
00:57:50.400 --> 00:57:56.719
It's very simple, but it will literally open a new world of possibilities.
00:57:56.880 --> 00:58:04.480
And more importantly, it will guide you to what it is that's blocking that from being the reality.
00:58:04.639 --> 00:58:06.079
So that's a cool one.
00:58:06.239 --> 00:58:08.400
I don't know if you have comments on that.
00:58:08.800 --> 00:58:28.000
I love that one because I like starting with like the most, you know, quote unquote unrealistic, because then, like you said, you're not immediately putting that stop sign up because that's where my brain, this is where I get stuck a lot, is like, okay, my business, you know, I want this, whatever digital product to look different.
00:58:28.159 --> 00:58:39.519
But then I'm only it's like immediately the constraints go up of like, okay, well, uh, you know, this could be a course, a membership, that like I don't let myself even think outside of like the digital box of constraints.
00:58:39.679 --> 00:58:47.519
Where if I start with like, yeah, let's imagine that we're all flying around with wings every day, it's like, okay, well, what would that take?
00:58:47.599 --> 00:58:50.000
And then it it's almost like warming up, right?
00:58:50.079 --> 00:58:50.480
At the gym.
00:58:50.639 --> 00:59:10.320
Like, you got to go to the gym, get your warm-up, and then you can start to be like, whoa, I call this like I need to think of a name like Galaxy View or something where you need to zoom out way outside of like where you are, your location, what you're doing, and be like, if I were an alien looking at myself on Earth, what would I see?
00:59:10.480 --> 00:59:11.920
Like, what could I be thinking about?
00:59:12.079 --> 00:59:21.199
And then you start to be like, Whoa, okay, that just cracked the code of like I don't need to think of this in terms of an Instagram post or a course launch or a podcast episode.
00:59:21.280 --> 00:59:23.840
It's like, no, you need to zoom out times like a hundred.
00:59:24.320 --> 00:59:25.039
Exactly.
00:59:25.199 --> 00:59:34.639
And then whenever you do, you need to also get it in your mind that imagining is a risk-free activity.
00:59:34.880 --> 00:59:40.960
There's no risk involved, like nothing will happen if you imagine whatever for your business that's crazy.
00:59:41.119 --> 00:59:46.880
One, no one will know unless you tell them, and two, nothing will literally happen.
00:59:47.039 --> 00:59:53.360
So give yourself the freedom of a literal risk-free activity and just imagining it.
00:59:53.440 --> 00:59:58.320
Doesn't mean you have to do it, it doesn't mean it definitely doesn't mean that it will work.
00:59:58.960 --> 01:00:01.360
But we're not talking about that yet.
01:00:01.519 --> 01:00:08.239
You're just thinking about how, then you will will fit in the pieces.
01:00:08.400 --> 01:00:11.199
Um, but that's something that we we really have to do.
01:00:11.280 --> 01:00:13.039
Like, don't try to make it work.
01:00:13.440 --> 01:00:22.239
Do this first, and then when you are going to make it work, which is step two in this in this gym, is to be open to surprise.
01:00:22.400 --> 01:00:27.599
And what that means is be open to the surprise of whatever it is you imagined failing.
01:00:27.840 --> 01:00:28.960
That's okay.
01:00:29.199 --> 01:00:31.599
Um, that's how you know design works.
01:00:31.760 --> 01:00:34.960
You do an MVP, and then if it doesn't work, then you just do it again.
01:00:35.119 --> 01:00:42.800
So be open to the surprise of finding out new things about whatever it is that you imagined.
01:00:43.039 --> 01:00:48.400
Um, that means putting it into practice, and then you will create like a re-imagination loop.
01:00:48.559 --> 01:00:53.280
So you did this thing and you bring it into reality.
01:00:53.360 --> 01:01:00.320
So be it like an MVP or just telling it to someone, showing it to someone, or telling them your imagined fantasy.
01:01:00.639 --> 01:01:25.920
And you will have some sort of feedback which will make you rethink this whole path that you already went into, and that will trigger this loop because that will make you then think about it again, and you will go into a new course of thought, and then you will bring it to reality again, be open to surprise, figure out something new, take action, and then reimagine it.
01:01:26.159 --> 01:01:44.800
If you do that enough times, you will have such fresh ideas and also such like a fun state of mind constantly of expecting surprise and being able to find evidence for the things that you think are crazy, that it's it's just crazy how imagination works.
01:01:45.119 --> 01:02:00.079
And another very cool one that is related to that um galaxy view that you that you said is not alien-based, but it's uh it's called thinking in deep time.
01:02:00.480 --> 01:02:06.480
Uh, this is a methodology by Joanna May, and it's basically four questions.
01:02:06.639 --> 01:02:08.719
It's called seventh generation.
01:02:08.880 --> 01:02:17.519
So it's basically four questions where you imagine anything that you want to do without with all of these rules that we already said, it doesn't have to be realistic.
01:02:17.599 --> 01:02:19.840
Just take it through that train of thought.
01:02:20.079 --> 01:02:29.280
And once you have the thing, just ask these four questions, which is what would your great-grandpa or grandma think about it if they knew it?
01:02:29.679 --> 01:02:36.800
Um, what will be true in the world in seven years if that thing you want to do happens or you do it?
01:02:37.039 --> 01:02:39.519
What would be true in 70 years?
01:02:39.840 --> 01:02:53.199
And then the hardest one, but it's it's the coolest one because it makes you really think deep in time is what would a being living 700 years from now want you to know about that thing that you did?
01:02:53.599 --> 01:03:01.679
That will bring you to a stop because you'll be like, I can't even think about a being in 700 years because maybe the world is ending.
01:03:01.840 --> 01:03:04.159
Well, whatever, just think about it.
01:03:04.320 --> 01:03:06.400
You know, take take yourself through that.
01:03:06.480 --> 01:03:15.519
And it's also a very cool path of experimentation because you'll find out what your mental blocks are and what the assumptions that you have about the world are.
01:03:15.760 --> 01:03:23.840
And with this inquiries of looking for evidence, you will find that a lot of the things that are blocking you are actually assumptions.
01:03:24.000 --> 01:03:28.639
They're not the real, they're the reality that we built or that you built.
01:03:28.960 --> 01:03:39.679
So with this practice, you will start opening up what the real actually is, and you'll find more and more evidence for it.
01:03:39.920 --> 01:04:08.320
I literally want to go run right now and buy an imagination notebook so I can start trying all of these and just making that part of my day too, because you and I are in a membership and I posted, like, I need more imaginative, forward-thinking pieces of content to consume because my feed right now is all op-eds and hot takes and the whole like intellectual influencer of like what you really don't know about, you know, nail polish.
01:04:08.400 --> 01:04:10.000
And it's like, what are we even talking about?
01:04:10.159 --> 01:04:19.920
Like, I need I needed to detox, and I'd be like, this is the way to do it is like flooding yourself with imaginative, almost childlike thoughts, right?
01:04:20.079 --> 01:04:22.800
I mean, that's what the beauty is of talking to kids.
01:04:22.960 --> 01:04:24.719
You're like, what did you just say?
01:04:24.800 --> 01:04:29.840
And it's like talking about, yeah, like being a kid, and I think that's fun too.
01:04:29.920 --> 01:04:30.719
It's more energizing.
01:04:31.039 --> 01:04:34.239
It's so fun, it's so fun, and also doing it collectively, Dan.
01:04:34.480 --> 01:04:46.880
Like, I think if you can find yourself a group of friends or just people that you can just talk shit about that's not realistic with no purpose, is such a great activity, too.
01:04:47.039 --> 01:04:52.000
That and making time for boredom, that too, because that's another thing.
01:04:52.159 --> 01:05:02.159
We're constantly looking for external input to give us ideas or to give us inspiration or to um stimulate our minds and our creativity.
01:05:02.719 --> 01:05:12.719
But the most creative minds and like thinkers out there, what they do and what they recommend is actually giving yourself time for boredom and just doing nothing.
01:05:12.880 --> 01:05:21.760
And what I mean by nothing is nothing, so not a contemplative activity moment, not a meditation, not nothing.
01:05:22.000 --> 01:05:26.960
Just sit and exist and just see what happens, what comes up.
01:05:27.119 --> 01:05:41.760
If you dedicate even 10 minutes or five minutes of existing to your day and think about right now how how much you maybe don't do that, your imagination will and your creativity will start spurring a lot.
01:05:41.920 --> 01:05:47.440
It it doesn't take much, it's just we don't find the time to have fun and do nothing.
01:05:47.760 --> 01:05:50.000
And I get it, we don't have it.
01:05:50.159 --> 01:05:54.480
Sometimes we don't have it, and that's part of the problem that we're trying to solve here.
01:05:54.880 --> 01:05:56.800
But it doesn't take a lot of time.
01:05:56.960 --> 01:06:04.079
You can take five, ten minutes of your day and Just let your imagination go and see what comes from it.
01:06:04.719 --> 01:06:05.280
I love that.
01:06:05.440 --> 01:06:10.719
I think if you're someone who struggles to be like, yeah, where am I finding five to ten minutes?
01:06:10.800 --> 01:06:12.719
Maybe do it right before you fall asleep.
01:06:12.880 --> 01:06:17.119
And I share this because I have a really hard time falling asleep.
01:06:17.199 --> 01:06:20.079
And that's because I used to have really bad sleep paralysis.
01:06:20.320 --> 01:06:26.079
And so I think my body is just very subconsciously like avoiding sleep because I don't want that to happen.
01:06:26.320 --> 01:06:31.440
And so I started to be like, okay, well, let's like start making up movies in my head.
01:06:31.599 --> 01:06:32.320
You know what I mean?
01:06:32.400 --> 01:06:34.239
Like I'm I'm single right now, right?
01:06:34.320 --> 01:06:40.639
Like, okay, what if I like have the cutest romantic story tomorrow and it's exactly like literally like a rom-com.
01:06:41.039 --> 01:06:47.679
What if this thing happened in business that I, you know, the collective regenerative business thing became like the thing, right?
01:06:47.840 --> 01:06:52.960
Whatever it is, I've been doing that and my dreams have become so much more positive.
01:06:53.119 --> 01:06:55.199
Like, I haven't been scared to fall asleep.
01:06:55.360 --> 01:06:57.840
I will say Lisbon, I was having a weird issue there.
01:06:57.920 --> 01:07:05.519
I always have sleep issues in Lisbon, but like my dreams, even last night, it's like I don't even want to wake up from them because they're very like joyful and happy.
01:07:05.679 --> 01:07:12.480
And I'm like, whoa, I I have to say that must be attributed to this like pre-bedtime imagination ritual.
01:07:12.639 --> 01:07:14.639
And maybe it's right when you wake up too, right?
01:07:14.719 --> 01:07:20.000
When you come out of that dream state, instead of like checking your phone and being like, oh my god, I gotta answer 10 emails.
01:07:20.079 --> 01:07:23.840
It's like the 10 emails are gonna be there in an hour anyway.
01:07:24.000 --> 01:07:31.280
So just like take the moment when you're waking up to be like, okay, what if I could like, what if I was five years old?
01:07:31.360 --> 01:07:32.719
How would I want my day to go?
01:07:32.880 --> 01:07:33.920
And this is actually fun.
01:07:34.000 --> 01:07:35.199
Like, I've been doing this too.
01:07:35.280 --> 01:07:41.119
Like, you know, a five-year-old might watch a movie in the morning, a five-year-old might go get like ice cream for breakfast, right?
01:07:41.199 --> 01:07:43.360
Like silly things, but it's like, who cares?
01:07:43.519 --> 01:07:44.239
Like, just do it.
01:07:44.320 --> 01:07:47.760
And also, it's more fun to move through the day that way, anyways.
01:07:48.000 --> 01:07:48.320
Right.
01:07:48.480 --> 01:07:52.400
And then you're like, Well, well, who says I can't do this every day?
01:07:52.639 --> 01:07:54.400
I made that up, someone made it up.
01:07:54.480 --> 01:07:55.440
I don't have to do it.
01:07:55.519 --> 01:08:06.000
And that's that's how your dreams and your imagination actually start creating reality, you know, they're actually impacting the real, like what you are doing.
01:08:06.239 --> 01:08:09.840
And that's amazing because that's what it all comes down to.
01:08:10.079 --> 01:08:17.039
The power of our imagination, and here you will realize it's not very, it's not woo-woo shit at all.
01:08:17.199 --> 01:08:22.560
It will actually create reality, like whatever we can imagine and dream of.
01:08:22.720 --> 01:08:34.079
Just think dream work is something that will sew, you know, the threads of whatever is whatever anomalies and incongruences are happening in your dreams.
01:08:34.319 --> 01:08:35.439
That's the magic of it.
01:08:35.600 --> 01:08:43.840
Like it doesn't question if it's real or not, it just happens, and then you you forget that you don't even question if how that could have happened.
01:08:43.920 --> 01:08:48.000
You had the wildest dream, and you're like, whoa, that's wild.
01:08:48.239 --> 01:08:50.239
And don't question how it could have happened.
01:08:50.319 --> 01:08:57.439
So give yourself conscious time for that and reality will rearrange accordingly, I promise.
01:08:57.520 --> 01:09:00.560
And it will happen with business as well.
01:09:00.800 --> 01:09:15.199
And think that whatever small change you can do in your business as well, that you can imagine beyond what the system is telling you is what's real and what should work, we'll eventually rearrange the full economy.
01:09:15.279 --> 01:09:16.239
And I'm sure of that.
01:09:16.399 --> 01:09:18.560
And if we don't see it in our lifetime, that's okay.
01:09:18.720 --> 01:09:21.199
Someone will, and that's what we're working for.
01:09:21.520 --> 01:09:22.479
Oh, I love that.
01:09:22.640 --> 01:09:24.319
I feel like that's the perfect note to end on.
01:09:24.399 --> 01:09:31.039
So I think we're gonna just have to do a part two about donut economics and circular economies and the gift economy.
01:09:31.119 --> 01:09:36.880
We will do a whole breakdown on the like economics of this whole side of business and the world.
01:09:37.119 --> 01:09:42.560
But for now, I know that you're building so many incredible things, and I want people to hear all about them.
01:09:42.640 --> 01:09:44.800
So tell us what's coming up in the world of Himena.
01:09:45.520 --> 01:10:04.319
Yes, a brief story on how it all came to be because I myself have been trying to build how regenerative economics could work, and I found myself bumping into a wall, and that's how I knew it was the imagination gap that was there.
01:10:04.479 --> 01:10:13.680
Um, so I started digging more into how the story came to be and how we can't escape it, seems like.
01:10:13.920 --> 01:10:22.319
So had to dig more on how we we can have tools to escape that to actually make our regenerative businesses reality.
01:10:22.479 --> 01:10:30.960
Um, so with that, I have an upcoming course, which is Nati Pical's core course, coming October.
01:10:31.279 --> 01:11:02.319
And what it is is really a path that will walk us from how we believed this story of separation, of scarcity, of capitalism, how we can unbuild it, then we will learn what is actually real, like what how nature actually works, how we work, and how with that in mind we can build around it, be it a business, a project, an activism project.
01:11:02.560 --> 01:11:09.279
So it's a work of unlearning what we know, reimagining what else could be, and then building it.
01:11:09.600 --> 01:11:11.439
So that's coming up.
01:11:11.680 --> 01:11:25.840
And also, since we talked about there not being enough spaces where we can just imagine things and have support in that, um, I'm also a lot in the ecological and conservation space.
01:11:26.079 --> 01:11:36.560
So I have a community opening up soon in October, too, which is just essentially for anyone that wants to talk about how this work is so hard.
01:11:36.880 --> 01:11:42.000
We will get tools for it, we'll be able to talk about it, um, network around it.
01:11:42.239 --> 01:11:51.279
Because, yeah, as we said, communal and community work is what's cool right now, and we're gonna make it the cool thing to be.
01:11:51.359 --> 01:11:54.000
And for that, we need the spaces for it to happen.
01:11:54.079 --> 01:11:55.680
So that's what's coming up.
01:11:56.000 --> 01:11:57.039
Oh, I love it.
01:11:57.199 --> 01:12:08.079
I'm planting a seed right now that you and I will collaborate on something because I feel like we're two, we're on the same parallel path and just coming at it from like slightly different angles.
01:12:08.159 --> 01:12:13.680
And it's like, yeah, we don't need to build our own separate churches, we can build the cathedral together.
01:12:13.920 --> 01:12:14.640
Absolutely.
01:12:14.880 --> 01:12:16.399
We're all building cathedrals.
01:12:16.640 --> 01:12:17.279
Let's do it.
01:12:17.520 --> 01:12:18.239
Let's do it.
01:12:18.399 --> 01:12:19.199
Thank you so much.
01:12:19.359 --> 01:12:20.720
Everyone, let us know what you think.
01:12:20.880 --> 01:12:23.119
Do we need him and on for back back for part two?
01:12:23.279 --> 01:12:23.920
I already know we do.
01:12:24.000 --> 01:12:25.279
That's a rhetorical question.
01:12:25.439 --> 01:12:27.359
So I will see you in part two.
01:12:27.680 --> 01:12:29.600
Thank you so much for coming on.
01:12:30.000 --> 01:12:30.880
Thank you.
01:12:31.199 --> 01:12:31.840
Bye.