Gremlin Mode, Side Quests as Strategy, and Leading a Soft Rebellion with Alicia Koo

WEBVTT
00:00:13.919 --> 00:00:14.960
Hello, everybody.
00:00:15.119 --> 00:00:16.879
Welcome back to Notes from the New World.
00:00:16.960 --> 00:00:22.879
I'm your host, Chelsea Rife, and today we have brand strategist speaker and founder of the Daily Atelier.
00:00:22.960 --> 00:00:23.440
Do I say that?
00:00:23.519 --> 00:00:24.399
Did I say that right?
00:00:24.640 --> 00:00:25.760
You did say that right.
00:00:25.920 --> 00:00:26.559
You did.
00:00:26.879 --> 00:00:30.640
I say that word wrong, but welcome to the show, Alicia Ku.
00:00:30.960 --> 00:00:31.839
How are you?
00:00:32.159 --> 00:00:35.039
I'm doing great hanging out in this pillow fort.
00:00:35.280 --> 00:00:36.880
So excited to be here.
00:00:37.520 --> 00:00:40.159
You have the ultimate recording setup right now.
00:00:40.240 --> 00:00:45.679
Everyone, this is not on video, but Alicia literally looks like she's hiding out in like a kid's pillow fort.
00:00:45.920 --> 00:00:49.200
She's like under a pile of pillows and carpets to make the sound work.
00:00:49.280 --> 00:00:52.640
So you are dedicated to the cause, which I appreciate.
00:00:53.439 --> 00:00:58.799
I want to talk about something that really stood out to me in your work.
00:00:59.119 --> 00:01:02.799
And that is the idea of gremlin behavior.
00:01:02.960 --> 00:01:07.120
Okay, so we're just gonna we're gonna kick off with the hard-hitting journalism.
00:01:07.280 --> 00:01:11.120
What is gremlin behavior and why is it so important to you?
00:01:11.439 --> 00:01:12.000
Absolutely.
00:01:12.159 --> 00:01:20.879
Okay, so I mean, I want to start off with a quote because a lot of what I talk about has to do with, you know, social good, social justice.
00:01:20.959 --> 00:01:29.120
And I think those topics can be really, really heavy a lot of the times, especially, you know, a lot of the world can weigh you down.
00:01:29.200 --> 00:01:45.359
And so one of the quotes that really helped me out when I was working on my soft rebellions idea was the quote of, you know, during the darkest days of the AIDS crisis, we buried our friends in the morning, we protested in the afternoon, and we danced all night.
00:01:45.680 --> 00:01:53.280
And so the idea of having fun being a very strategic thing was very, very important to me.
00:01:53.359 --> 00:02:15.039
And as someone who has worked in research for quite some time and felt really burnt out by it, integrating gremlin behavior, integrating really silly shit into the process is life-giving and gives you energy to continue moving forward on the days when you're like, hey, this shit is actually really hard.
00:02:16.319 --> 00:02:18.240
What is an example of what that looks like for you?
00:02:18.319 --> 00:02:20.719
Like what's some gremlin behavior you're on right now?
00:02:21.039 --> 00:02:30.960
Okay, well, I think maybe a more useful example is recently I've been on some side quest to do some speaking, and a lot of it can be in corporate spaces.
00:02:31.039 --> 00:02:35.759
And so I was like, what's something that's like a little weird, a little offbeat, you know?
00:02:35.840 --> 00:02:41.680
And so even one of the names for one of my talks is soft rebellions for when you're too polite to scream.
00:02:41.840 --> 00:02:48.639
And like when the announcer says that and you can see the faces of some of the people there, they're like, what the heck is she talking about?
00:02:48.800 --> 00:02:55.360
Like that gives me so much joy because it gives me a little bit of a giggle before I like go on stage and have to do the talk.
00:02:55.520 --> 00:03:02.240
Um, and even with some of the talks as well, um, I like to tell stories that aren't always like business related.
00:03:02.319 --> 00:03:11.360
And so there's a story of a stuffed frog of mine, and why it has also helped me like microdose rejection and failure.
00:03:11.439 --> 00:03:12.800
And I I end it off.
00:03:12.960 --> 00:03:18.400
I end the talk off with that, and sometimes I bring the frog on stage with me.
00:03:18.639 --> 00:03:27.360
And that's, I think, an example of gremlin behavior contextually that brings me a lot of joy and makes serious topics feel a lot more fun.
00:03:28.080 --> 00:03:32.719
Yeah, you're bringing up the role of humor, especially in today's world.
00:03:32.879 --> 00:03:42.479
I mean, I have talked about this on this podcast, but there was a period where I was very critical and very annoyed and frustrated with just like everything, right?
00:03:42.560 --> 00:03:46.319
Like the tech world, media, like the state of the United States.
00:03:46.560 --> 00:03:53.439
And I just remember waking up every day and my frustration was coming out in the way I express myself.
00:03:53.520 --> 00:04:01.520
And I would listen back to my own podcast episodes, and I was like, wow, I just sound annoyed, but it sounds like I'm annoyed with everybody.
00:04:01.680 --> 00:04:05.520
Like it doesn't sound like an enjoyable experience to listen to.
00:04:05.680 --> 00:04:12.319
And I remember thinking, is this really that fun to like turn on my podcast and just hear me have this kind of like angry tone all the time?
00:04:12.560 --> 00:04:17.040
And what I realized is I need to infuse my life with some humor and comedy.
00:04:17.120 --> 00:04:22.560
And so this year I made a very intentional effort to flood my system with comedy.
00:04:22.720 --> 00:04:26.879
Like, I pretty much exclusively listen to comedy and entertainment podcasts.
00:04:27.040 --> 00:04:30.240
I started reading funny books, I started reading fiction more.
00:04:30.560 --> 00:04:34.800
I pretty much only watch now like lighthearted shows.
00:04:34.959 --> 00:04:45.199
Um, I stopped watching, you know, violent movies and angry things and constantly, I don't know, critical tones of things because I was like, that was just the world I was in for so long.
00:04:45.439 --> 00:04:48.399
And I feel myself softening up.
00:04:48.480 --> 00:05:05.920
And I think this is what you're talking about too, with soft rebellion, is like, I actually feel like I'm more recharged and ready to like get in the arena because so much of my day and weeks now are infueled with like are infused quite literally with laughing and making things funny.
00:05:06.079 --> 00:05:16.079
And so recently I was writing an email for my upcoming program, and I was gonna write, you know, this kind of like from the heart, deep, revolutionary email.
00:05:16.240 --> 00:05:18.079
And, you know, there's a time and place for that.
00:05:18.240 --> 00:05:23.920
But I was like, what if I just made this really funny and started typing as if I was the voice in my head?
00:05:24.000 --> 00:05:29.040
And what if I included memes that I made and, you know, started like throwing jokes in it?
00:05:29.120 --> 00:05:36.879
And so I literally made a meme of Michelangelo that says, bitch better have my money, because I found out he like demanded money as an apprentice when he was a teenager for his art.
00:05:37.120 --> 00:05:38.399
I was like, oh yeah.
00:05:39.600 --> 00:05:40.879
And I was like, you know what?
00:05:40.959 --> 00:05:41.680
Let's make this funny.
00:05:41.759 --> 00:05:44.639
And I started plug, I used to plug in gifts all the time to my emails.
00:05:44.720 --> 00:05:45.839
Now I'm back to that.
00:05:46.000 --> 00:05:57.439
I'm writing as if I'm talking to a friend, and I was just like, whoa, this is how you also like sustain yourself because it's really easy to get burnt out when you're just running on pure anger.
00:05:57.519 --> 00:06:02.480
And I want you to talk about that a little bit because I know that's such a key part of your message with soft rebellions.
00:06:02.959 --> 00:06:03.360
Yeah.
00:06:03.600 --> 00:06:14.160
So I mean, the branding space itself is just like so loaded because I think everyone's just trying to look this to to be this like perfect version of themselves.
00:06:14.240 --> 00:06:33.199
And I think especially for women, and like I see this for oftentimes like the smartest and most competent women I've encountered, is that they're really afraid of showing anger in public because it it they feel like it removes control of the narrative in some way.
00:06:33.279 --> 00:06:42.879
But I think anger when it's used as a creative force, when you're not doing it reactively, when you're using it as a source of information, is a really great place to create from.
00:06:43.519 --> 00:06:53.279
And uh maybe you can speak about this as well, where I think you rebranded your podcast, but it was due to certain frustrations you had in the industry and like the messaging that you were seeing out there.
00:06:53.360 --> 00:06:55.360
Was that is that accurate to say?
00:06:57.120 --> 00:07:03.680
Yeah, I mean, notes from the new world was very much like, okay, there's a clearly an old world is crumbling.
00:07:03.759 --> 00:07:05.839
We need a new world to imagine.
00:07:06.000 --> 00:07:13.839
And I really wanted to lean into the imagination factor and like let's get like Disney level with it, let's get Pixar level with it.
00:07:13.920 --> 00:07:14.399
You know what I mean?
00:07:14.480 --> 00:07:18.319
Like we need to imagine and not just be like slam dunking on everything that doesn't work.
00:07:18.480 --> 00:07:29.439
Because also that's exhausting, and that's a lot of criticism we see in our political parties in the United States is like, okay, we're just circling around the what doesn't work, like what are we working towards?
00:07:29.519 --> 00:07:31.279
Like, that's what are we making?
00:07:31.519 --> 00:07:33.120
What are we making, guys?
00:07:33.279 --> 00:07:41.600
And I think that's such a great conversation and um place to build from is can you experience anger without destruction?
00:07:41.759 --> 00:07:44.639
Can you do it without pointing fingers at everybody?
00:07:44.879 --> 00:07:57.120
Like, can you do it where you're focusing on yourself and what you are capable of not just saying, but making in order to influence your immediate sphere in orbit orbit?
00:07:57.199 --> 00:07:59.120
Um, and that's how I see anger.
00:07:59.279 --> 00:08:04.480
And then that's why you need the fun to pair with it, because if you're just constantly angry all the time, that doesn't work.
00:08:04.560 --> 00:08:15.040
So play then becomes the Trojan horse, where you get the nugget of insight from the anger, but then you make it fun, whatever it is that you're building to address the things that made you upset in the first place.
00:08:15.519 --> 00:08:16.319
I love that.
00:08:16.480 --> 00:08:30.560
I actually wrote a question that's like something that's been circling my mind, and I'm so curious about your take because you just mentioned how people are scared to express this in public because it it feels like it they get discredited of like, oh, you don't know how to manage your emotions, you don't know how to regulate.
00:08:30.720 --> 00:08:36.480
And it just feels like um that, yeah, well, then all of a sudden tarnish your credibility.
00:08:36.639 --> 00:08:44.639
And so I'm curious, what do you think is the difference between like repression and diplomacy and expression?
00:08:44.960 --> 00:08:51.919
Because I feel like I'm a very diplomatic person, and I constantly, especially when I'm on threads, I'm like, Chelsea, show restraint.
00:08:52.000 --> 00:08:55.679
Like we do not need to be, we do not need to be slam dunking on here.
00:08:55.840 --> 00:08:59.519
And then there's sometimes where I'm like, I'm fucking annoyed, like I'm pissed.
00:08:59.679 --> 00:09:02.960
But I'm like, is threads the best place for me to go express this?
00:09:03.039 --> 00:09:05.039
But then I'm like, well, am I repressing myself?
00:09:05.200 --> 00:09:07.440
Am I showing diplomacy or restraint?
00:09:07.519 --> 00:09:09.440
And yeah, I'm just curious your take on that.
00:09:09.759 --> 00:09:10.159
Yeah.
00:09:10.399 --> 00:09:20.320
So I think, at least for myself, like the ground rules for expression is that if it's coming from like a bleeding wound, don't be processing that in public.
00:09:20.480 --> 00:09:21.600
Like, do not be doing that.
00:09:21.759 --> 00:09:27.679
Like, that should be done in a safe space with people you trust and not like the internet full of strangers.
00:09:28.000 --> 00:09:34.799
Um, but when you have the insight that you gain from processing that anger, that's when I feel like I'm comfortable to share.
00:09:34.879 --> 00:09:53.600
And that's where I feel like the medicine is and the insight is that everyone else can actually also, you know, use in their day-to-day lives, as opposed to fueling sort of this hive mind of frustration where everyone gets upset but then doesn't know what to do about it.
00:09:53.840 --> 00:10:04.399
Um, and so I think when I'm talking to even clients about this, it's like, okay, it's important that you have an opinion and that you know what that is.
00:10:04.559 --> 00:10:07.440
But an opinion without kindness is you just being an asshole.
00:10:07.519 --> 00:10:09.519
So ground rules, don't put people down.
00:10:09.600 --> 00:10:11.360
Like that's not what we're trying to do.
00:10:11.600 --> 00:10:14.559
An opinion without a plan is just complaining.
00:10:14.799 --> 00:10:17.919
So talk about what you're gonna build, talk about what you're going to do.
00:10:18.000 --> 00:10:20.960
Like it's totally okay to be frustrated, but don't just leave it at that.
00:10:21.120 --> 00:10:25.279
Like, think about what the next steps are that you and other people can start taking.
00:10:25.840 --> 00:10:34.399
I love this because that's that's the realization I had in the last few years is I was constantly talking shit about Meta and Mark Zuckerberg and Instagram.
00:10:34.480 --> 00:10:35.519
And like I still do.
00:10:35.679 --> 00:10:38.559
I still think they're like completely off the rocker.
00:10:38.720 --> 00:10:41.039
But also I was like, okay, then what is my plan?
00:10:41.200 --> 00:10:44.399
And I realized, oh, that's creating supernova, a thinking lab.
00:10:44.799 --> 00:10:48.960
That's teaching people to be audacious and speak up so that we can address these issues.
00:10:49.120 --> 00:10:52.799
That's teaching people to start a podcast so we can have nuanced conversations.
00:10:52.960 --> 00:10:59.120
And so I realized, oh, that's why I'm so annoyed, is I actually do have the solution, but I'm not sharing it.
00:10:59.279 --> 00:11:08.080
And that's something that I think is an invitation for people listening is actually use your anger as a flashlight into what solution you're building.
00:11:08.240 --> 00:11:13.279
So if you're constantly like, this sucks, I hate this, like this is not working for the world.
00:11:13.600 --> 00:11:14.960
Oh, that's interesting.
00:11:15.120 --> 00:11:16.480
I have something to show.
00:11:16.639 --> 00:11:17.840
Like, that is my solution.
00:11:17.919 --> 00:11:23.600
And if anything, it helps you start to market things differently too, and being like, hey, I know you're frustrated with this.
00:11:23.759 --> 00:11:25.440
This is why I built this thing.
00:11:25.600 --> 00:11:28.879
And then people can start to see that gap and take steps towards you.
00:11:29.120 --> 00:11:29.440
Yes.
00:11:29.519 --> 00:11:35.360
And what I love the most about that is that it's basically the equivalent of a full body yes without you knowing it.
00:11:35.519 --> 00:11:44.960
Cause like you're so when you're so like viscerally upset, then you know for sure that you're creating from a place of emotional truth and not just like, oh, what does the market want from me?
00:11:45.120 --> 00:11:56.799
And trying to like suss out what everyone else is doing and copy and pasting other people's offers instead of building from like a place of personal conviction and from your your own stories, essentially.
00:11:57.679 --> 00:12:01.200
You mentioned something earlier about, you know, spicy opinions.
00:12:01.519 --> 00:12:12.879
And this became pretty rampant, I feel like, especially on threads, where people are just like sharing their hottest takes, spiciest opinions, but they're actually like pretty rude.
00:12:13.039 --> 00:12:18.559
Like I'll just say they're like pretty bitchy, pretty rude, and to the point where I'm like sometimes like, is this about me?
00:12:18.639 --> 00:12:23.919
Like it doesn't, it doesn't make me feel excited to be in that person's world.
00:12:24.000 --> 00:12:26.720
It actually makes me feel quite unsettled and unsafe.
00:12:26.879 --> 00:12:29.039
And I realized I was doing that too.
00:12:29.200 --> 00:12:34.399
I was like looking back at some of my own posts and being like, whoa, I'm not really contributing to any type of solution here.
00:12:34.639 --> 00:12:53.200
But there is something to be said about being on social media where if everyone's posting the same things that are kind of bland and vanilla and beige, you start to feel like, okay, well, the solution is I need to stand out and I need to be loud and in your face and like really prove that I know what I'm talking about.
00:12:53.360 --> 00:12:56.320
And again, I think this is to me the most visible on threads.
00:12:56.480 --> 00:13:06.960
And I'm curious when you work with people and even people right now listening that are like, yeah, like that type of content gets reactions and gets people talking, but it doesn't feel good.
00:13:07.200 --> 00:13:08.080
What do you recommend?
00:13:08.240 --> 00:13:22.720
Like, how can you you mentioned a little bit of like, you know, share it with uh a plan or without a complaint, but like maybe what's an example of someone you've worked with or that you had recently that you're like, I really need to like tweak this so it doesn't come off like total asshole behavior.
00:13:23.039 --> 00:13:24.159
Yeah, totally.
00:13:24.320 --> 00:13:32.960
Um, like how about I give an example of a client that I worked with recently, and then I can kind of walk you through the story of like how we've kind of approached it.
00:13:33.200 --> 00:13:40.879
So I was speaking to someone who was working in the ballet industry, and they also teach, and it's it's really wonderful that they do.
00:13:40.960 --> 00:13:44.879
But when I usually ask the question of like, oh, well, what's really frustrating you in the industry?
00:13:45.039 --> 00:13:53.200
Like what really bothers you, usually it's just like a tirade of stuff we have to just like pick through to figure out, okay, how can we like judge this a bit, right?
00:13:53.440 --> 00:14:09.679
And so something she was really angry about was that, you know, when it comes to beginner classes, there's a lot of teachers out there that don't actually take into account what adult beginner learning looks like and what dance looks like and what safety and spaces look like.
00:14:09.840 --> 00:14:13.120
Because you can say, oh, we're a safe space, oh, like this is beginner friendly.
00:14:13.200 --> 00:14:22.720
But then when you expect people to have like two years of experience and an understanding of etiquette without actually teaching them what the etiquette is, that's not a safe space, right?
00:14:22.879 --> 00:14:27.039
And so obviously when we're talking one-on-one, like it just comes out as a bunch of complaints.
00:14:27.120 --> 00:14:28.960
And so it's like, okay, that's totally cool.
00:14:29.039 --> 00:14:30.879
I actually love this conversation.
00:14:31.039 --> 00:14:34.799
Um, but I wouldn't like put that out there raw, right?
00:14:34.879 --> 00:14:44.960
Like, cause that again, it's just, I don't think that's actually helpful to changing the space because then you're kind of just hoping that someone else makes the change instead of you being the change.
00:14:45.200 --> 00:14:52.879
So what I like to focus on is the language of advocacy of okay, so we're really frustrated about this.
00:14:53.039 --> 00:14:55.360
You can say that you're actually frustrated about it.
00:14:55.440 --> 00:15:01.039
Like, hey, I don't like the fact that a lot of these spaces aren't necessarily geared towards beginners.
00:15:01.120 --> 00:15:10.000
And, you know, I see a lot of fear in people when they actually come in and they don't come back because of all of these issues, which gives the dance community a really bad rap.
00:15:10.159 --> 00:15:11.759
Um, so this is what I propose.
00:15:11.919 --> 00:15:14.639
Like, this is what I actually want to see and what I want to build.
00:15:14.799 --> 00:15:23.919
I want to see spaces where we're actually talking about, you know, making weird movements and having fun with being weird and ugly with our dancing.
00:15:24.000 --> 00:15:27.840
Because especially as beginners, like we're not in competition here.
00:15:27.919 --> 00:15:30.159
Like, we're not sending you out to competition.
00:15:30.320 --> 00:15:34.320
We just want to make you comfortable with like messy, imperfect movement.
00:15:34.399 --> 00:15:39.600
Cause like, hey, we're talking about dance, but we're not really just talking about dance.
00:15:39.759 --> 00:15:40.720
You know what I mean?
00:15:40.960 --> 00:15:52.159
And so I think when we we put it in that language, it encourages other people to join in and that really pushes the cause forward as opposed to hey, like you suck and like you shouldn't be doing it that way.
00:15:52.399 --> 00:15:55.200
Because I don't think that actually makes effective change.
00:15:55.919 --> 00:16:02.000
That's the thing that I I keep circling back to is like when when people are reacting that way.
00:16:02.159 --> 00:16:11.840
Let's again use threads as the example of like there's a common one, you know, like people who blah blah blah don't get that blah blah blah, or like women who do this piss me off, da-da-da.
00:16:12.080 --> 00:16:17.679
And you know that someone reading that is clearly receiving that as the the person they're targeting.
00:16:17.919 --> 00:16:26.240
And I keep thinking, like, these people are leaders and experts in their field, and it just isn't really supporting their cause.
00:16:26.480 --> 00:16:42.559
And my two cents is that there's an initial validation period that happens on social media platforms where if you're frustrated, you can very easily go to threads and have three people write you back and be like, you're so right, girl, like a hundred percent.
00:16:42.720 --> 00:16:44.000
I I totally agree.
00:16:44.159 --> 00:16:45.919
LOL, I was gonna tag you.
00:16:46.080 --> 00:16:49.759
That you're like, yeah, you know, like you kind of get this feel of like I knew I was right.
00:16:50.000 --> 00:17:08.559
And that makes me wonder like, if we keep zooming out about the psychological effects about this, is like, why do we turn to these platforms, these algorithmic platforms that really activate us and like our limbic systems and our primal animalistic ways to receive that type of validation or feedback?
00:17:08.799 --> 00:17:14.960
And I think it's because there's deep down a part of us that's like, I don't want you to look at me as not an expert.
00:17:15.039 --> 00:17:17.519
Like, I need you to tell me that I'm good.
00:17:17.680 --> 00:17:20.079
I need you to tell me that I am the authority.
00:17:20.240 --> 00:17:21.599
I need to be reminded of that.
00:17:21.680 --> 00:17:22.880
I need that validation.
00:17:23.039 --> 00:17:25.119
And I'm just curious your take on that.
00:17:25.279 --> 00:17:38.559
Especially, I know you're not really uh prioritizing social media as like a conversion tool or marketing, but I'm just curious, like, what do you think is going on internally when people are seeking that type of validation out on social media?
00:17:39.039 --> 00:17:43.200
Yeah, I think, I mean, I don't, I'm not an expert in this.
00:17:43.279 --> 00:17:49.200
I'm actually not on social media a lot because of all of that noise that I just don't like being around.
00:17:49.359 --> 00:18:02.000
But I think part of it is that you're afraid to show up with something that might not land perfectly on the first try, whether that's like an offer or a product or whatever.
00:18:02.240 --> 00:18:07.359
Which is why I actually really love the idea of like, you know, if you're not sure, make it a side quest.
00:18:07.440 --> 00:18:12.480
You don't have to make all of this stuff like public and like put all of your eggs in one basket.
00:18:12.640 --> 00:18:15.519
Like, give it a try, have some fun with it.
00:18:15.759 --> 00:18:22.960
You know, if you have that personal experience and conviction that, you know, something isn't right, chances are other people are feeling the same way, right?
00:18:23.119 --> 00:18:33.440
And the choice to make the difference is the validation you should be seeking within yourself, is the choice to do something different, regardless of what people are saying.
00:18:33.680 --> 00:18:40.319
Um, and I think that with social media, it's easy to just get that like dopamine rush of people agreeing with you.
00:18:40.400 --> 00:18:55.039
And I I don't think that's actually helpful to building the self-trust that you need to like put new ideas forward because things aren't gonna change unless you create new products or new offers or new ways of doing things.
00:18:55.279 --> 00:19:08.079
And if you're always waiting for validation of like a large external group, then we're probably going to end up being stuck with the same systems over and over again because everyone's kind of thinking within the same capacity.
00:19:08.160 --> 00:19:12.720
And you need to be brave enough to do something different, even if nobody agrees at first.
00:19:13.440 --> 00:19:21.920
Yeah, it's actually now I'm like really thinking about this is let's say you do the threads thing, the slam dunks, you get five people saying, You're so right.
00:19:23.119 --> 00:19:30.640
You're not actually sitting with the long-term vision or strategy or foresight to be like, okay, I keep complaining about this thing.
00:19:30.799 --> 00:19:31.359
What's next?
00:19:31.519 --> 00:19:33.440
Like, to your point, what are we building?
00:19:33.680 --> 00:19:38.000
Because you kind of just stay in that tiny loop of like, this sucks, this sucks, this sucks.
00:19:38.079 --> 00:19:39.200
And it's like, okay, what are we doing?
00:19:39.279 --> 00:19:42.799
Like, we need to break the loop, we need to circuit break it, we need to move forward.
00:19:42.960 --> 00:19:47.200
And this is something I've said on this podcast too, my word of the year was restraint.
00:19:47.359 --> 00:19:53.519
Because I was like, if I restrain myself a little bit and be like, let's put this down, let's walk away, let's go work on something else.
00:19:53.680 --> 00:19:58.480
That is what activates the part of my brain that starts thinking like more future oriented.
00:19:58.640 --> 00:20:08.079
And I know there's neuroscience and and um, you know, data to support this, that when your body's in flight or flight, fight or flight, you can't imagine things, right?
00:20:08.160 --> 00:20:18.880
And that's what happens to me with social media is you just get so activated and you don't know if someone's gonna comment or disagree, and you're kind of bracing for confrontation all the time, or you're like, okay, like this happened to me last week.
00:20:19.039 --> 00:20:22.559
I asked a pretty like genuine curious question about AI on threads.
00:20:22.720 --> 00:20:29.920
But because if you don't know me and you don't know my use of AI or not, you're just making an assumption based on what I asked.
00:20:30.160 --> 00:20:35.519
You're gonna project onto me whatever story that you think is, you know, made up in your head.
00:20:35.680 --> 00:20:47.839
And so it caused a little bit of back and forth with a few people, and I started to get activated to the point where I was like, Do I need to just go on there and you like defend myself and like repost and be like actually da-da-da-da-da?
00:20:48.160 --> 00:20:54.480
And then I noticed this and I was like, We we're gonna stay on this loop all day or all week if we keep like coming back to it.
00:20:54.640 --> 00:21:06.799
So I don't need to be like flame wars all day long on the internet, keyboard warriors, like keyboard warriors, and like and also again, I was sitting there just thinking about what I mean.
00:21:06.880 --> 00:21:25.519
If I'm getting honest, like what was being activated is oh, you don't see me as perfect, or you don't see me as the authority on this, or you actually are questioning me in public, which is very vulnerable to be exposed like this, and now I'm getting defensive, and now I'm just thinking about myself versus what is the solution here?
00:21:25.680 --> 00:21:37.599
And that's when I realized this is why we need nuanced spaces to go have these conversations, gray area conversations, whether that's a salon, a podcast interview, a membership to go talk about these things.
00:21:37.759 --> 00:21:39.599
And that's like that's the solution.
00:21:39.680 --> 00:21:40.880
And so I was like, you know what?
00:21:41.039 --> 00:21:47.519
Once I calm down, I will respond to this person and say, like, hey, I feel like we need to be in a room together and talk about this in a bigger way.
00:21:47.680 --> 00:21:52.559
But I wouldn't have gotten to that point if I just kept sitting there going back and forth with this person.
00:21:52.799 --> 00:21:59.759
And I want you to talk a little bit about the kind of like bracing for confrontation that seems to happen.
00:22:00.240 --> 00:22:03.599
In on especially social media, like what are ways?
00:22:03.759 --> 00:22:06.400
Because I know you you just said you're not on social media that much.
00:22:06.480 --> 00:22:13.519
Like, what are ways that we can express ourselves without that kind of humming anxiety of, like, oh, I'm gonna get in a fight today online?
00:22:14.799 --> 00:22:26.720
Yeah, I think part of this has to it goes back to taking yourself not super seriously, going on these weird little side quests, because that is microdosing rejection.
00:22:26.880 --> 00:22:32.079
Because I think that's what that that nervous system reaction is, is that people don't like being rejected.
00:22:32.160 --> 00:22:49.279
They don't like dealing with conflict when, in fact, I think conflict can be really, really helpful because again, it it gives you some sort of reference point as to what you find acceptable and what isn't, um, but to not stay in that state.
00:22:49.440 --> 00:23:20.799
And so that's why I I again I really enjoy going on a side quest, creating like a micro project to put out into the world and then testing that out and being okay with people disagreeing with you, because through going through when you're going through the process of creating, let's say, an offer or a product or something new, like a weird ballet class, for example, like there's obviously going to be people that are going to fully disagree, but you're going to also find people that come out of the woodwork because they're like, oh shit, I never thought about it that way.
00:23:20.960 --> 00:23:23.759
And that's the coolest thing I've ever seen.
00:23:24.079 --> 00:23:32.400
And so you really have to hold on to the to the A, the fact that you built something out of your own conviction, because that's the that's the opinion that matters most.
00:23:33.519 --> 00:23:45.440
And then find your allies, find the people that actually do enjoy and agree and have engaged in a way that have that is meaningful to the cause, and then build from there.
00:23:45.599 --> 00:24:06.240
So I think that's probably the best way to go about it is not to not to just shut yourself off completely from people who disagree, because that's always going to be the case, but like find your friends for the cause, find people that you trust, invite people that you know could benefit from it and are curious to learn and are open to learning.
00:24:06.720 --> 00:24:16.559
And then in that way, you're not just like being in a constant barrage of negativity, but you're also getting very effective feedback and very nuanced feedback.
00:24:16.880 --> 00:24:20.160
Yeah, you're talking about fucking around and finding out.
00:24:20.400 --> 00:24:24.960
I know that's something I know that's something that you are a big fan of.
00:24:25.200 --> 00:24:39.119
And you've talked about this before in in some of your our spaces that we've been in together, is like it it's almost like a necessary part of the process to be able to fail and literally fuck around and see what happens on the other side of it.
00:24:39.200 --> 00:24:40.880
And I'm curious, like, what is something?
00:24:40.960 --> 00:24:44.480
What is a side quest or a fafo moment that you've had recently?
00:24:44.799 --> 00:24:50.319
Um, I think recently it's been, let's see, I think painting actually.
00:24:50.480 --> 00:24:53.119
And so that is a full side quest.
00:24:53.200 --> 00:25:01.279
It has nothing to do with business-related stuff as of this particular moment in time, but it was something that I wanted to just try out.
00:25:01.359 --> 00:25:08.319
But for some reason, I just like was, I don't know, scared, worried, you know, oh, what if it's not perfect?
00:25:08.480 --> 00:25:10.720
What if my paintings come out really, really ugly?
00:25:10.799 --> 00:25:13.759
And I'm sure everyone can relate to this feeling.
00:25:13.920 --> 00:25:37.519
Um, and so I think in order to get over that fear, I had I created a little challenge for myself, a little project where I'm like, I'm gonna paint every morning for the next 30 days and just like microdose that feeling of not being perfect and you know, failure, failure quote in quotations, um, until I just like no longer feel like the cringe factor of doing it anymore.
00:25:37.680 --> 00:25:45.359
And so after going through that 30 days, yes, like, you know, there were days where I'm like, oh, like what if I make a mistake or what if I make a mark that looks ugly?
00:25:45.599 --> 00:25:46.480
I'm like, it doesn't matter.
00:25:46.720 --> 00:25:50.000
This is for fun, there's no stakes, we're gonna be fine.
00:25:50.960 --> 00:25:53.759
Like, this is not a life or death situation.
00:25:54.160 --> 00:26:01.279
And I think in in understanding that, it just made the process a lot more fun, a lot less stressful.
00:26:01.519 --> 00:26:10.880
Um, and I think when I'm able to to to fuck around and find out like that, by the end of that process, I feel so much more confident, so much more comfortable.
00:26:10.960 --> 00:26:14.880
But you just have to be okay with like being shit at something for a little bit first.
00:26:15.440 --> 00:26:22.720
Yeah, because you're also giving yourself and your nervous system an experience that, like, look, I can fuck up and I'm not gonna die.
00:26:22.880 --> 00:26:37.759
Because that's really like the underlying, that's the underlying fear is like people are gonna see I'm not perfect expert, whatever, and I'm gonna be cast aside and judged in the town square and guillotine, you know, like like we are so dramatic and catastrophize.
00:26:37.839 --> 00:26:39.759
Like, what is the worst possible outcome?
00:26:39.920 --> 00:26:41.519
Instead of being like, you know what?
00:26:41.680 --> 00:26:52.400
This there's actually no real it the other thing, too, that I was thinking about as you were talking about painting is like your livelihood is not uh from what I understand, is not dependent on your painting.
00:26:52.480 --> 00:26:53.200
You know what I mean?
00:26:53.359 --> 00:27:15.599
So, like the fact that we also put so much pressure on ourselves around some of these side quests to like make it something, or like now I need to turn painting into this thing where I saw paintings on Etsy and make it, it's like, no, I just need to give myself an experience of being imperfect and show myself like we can do this, and it's okay to prioritize this, and nothing's gonna change, and I'm not gonna die.
00:27:15.759 --> 00:27:16.960
Like, that's what I'm hearing.
00:27:17.599 --> 00:27:20.640
Yes, and it's it's a transferable skill.
00:27:20.720 --> 00:27:27.039
So it's like if you don't want to do it within your own business, even though I I do encourage you to, um, try it for other things.
00:27:27.119 --> 00:27:30.480
Like, go to go do a thing that scares you.
00:27:30.799 --> 00:27:34.720
And then if you walk out of there upright and breathing, you're fine.
00:27:35.119 --> 00:27:39.119
Like if you didn't just pass out and die, like you're fine.
00:27:39.359 --> 00:27:39.680
Right.
00:27:39.839 --> 00:27:50.880
And so you can take that and like transfer it to, you know, a like a business-related type of communications or or product that you're putting out there.
00:27:51.039 --> 00:27:54.480
Um, that if you try something new, also you're not going to die.
00:27:54.559 --> 00:27:56.480
You're going to be just fine.
00:27:57.039 --> 00:28:00.160
You're reminding me of when I launched Popcorn Club.
00:28:00.319 --> 00:28:03.200
I think I told the story on this podcast, but I I will retell it.
00:28:03.279 --> 00:28:05.039
And if not, you're hearing it for the first time.
00:28:05.279 --> 00:28:07.599
But I love movies and TV.
00:28:07.759 --> 00:28:10.799
Like I literally love, love, love watching TV and movies.
00:28:10.960 --> 00:28:14.559
But I'm not a movie critic, I'm not a, you know, film critic.
00:28:14.720 --> 00:28:18.400
I don't have any theses to provide on anything.
00:28:18.559 --> 00:28:23.279
I'm just like, I enjoy consuming movies and TV and I want to talk about it with people.
00:28:23.440 --> 00:28:27.519
And I was spiraling about is there a way I can make this part of my business?
00:28:27.759 --> 00:28:32.480
But I was taking it way too far, where I was literally Googling, like, how do you become a film critic?
00:28:32.559 --> 00:28:34.799
And like, how do you start a film critic blog?
00:28:34.880 --> 00:28:36.799
And should I take film criticism classes?
00:28:36.880 --> 00:28:39.759
But I was like, no, no, no, this is taking out the fun of it.
00:28:39.839 --> 00:28:44.720
Like, I do not want to be watching movies thinking of like now I have to write this film criticism piece.
00:28:44.960 --> 00:28:48.720
So I was like, what if there was just like a space that we could just chat about it?
00:28:48.799 --> 00:28:53.759
Kind of the way that you, the way when you go to a movie and you just debrief with your friend after, you're like, what was that?
00:28:53.839 --> 00:28:54.799
Like, what happened in the middle?
00:28:54.880 --> 00:28:56.079
And like that ending sucked.
00:28:56.160 --> 00:28:57.759
Or actually, that was like an amazing movie.
00:28:57.839 --> 00:28:58.880
It's underrated.
00:28:59.119 --> 00:29:06.720
I was like, okay, maybe I just create a free Zoom call once a month and see what happens and call it Popcorn Club.
00:29:06.960 --> 00:29:14.480
I had this idea for months, and I was circling around it, couldn't pick a date, overthinking like, does this need to be a membership?
00:29:14.640 --> 00:29:18.559
Like, do I need to come with a written essay to discuss and debrief?
00:29:18.799 --> 00:29:19.920
Like, just circling and circling.
00:29:20.079 --> 00:29:20.960
And I was like, stop.
00:29:21.279 --> 00:29:26.079
What if we just literally do an hour, pick a random show that's in the zeitgeist, see what happens.
00:29:26.240 --> 00:29:26.559
Okay.
00:29:26.720 --> 00:29:28.880
So I started so much fun.
00:29:29.039 --> 00:29:30.960
We talked about the Manosphere documentary.
00:29:31.039 --> 00:29:39.279
We talked about um the Summerhouse Reunion and all these things that I thought were going to discredit my work.
00:29:39.440 --> 00:29:45.440
Where I was like, this is, you know, there's some people that think uh Summerhouse is like really silly.
00:29:45.599 --> 00:29:50.720
There's people that think reality TV is for people that are, you know, unintelligent.
00:29:50.799 --> 00:29:56.880
And as someone who just built a thinking lab to help boost our intelligence, I was like, This, Chelsea, this is bad.
00:29:56.960 --> 00:30:00.880
Like you're kind of hurting your brand putting up this silly little thing.
00:30:01.200 --> 00:30:05.839
Fast forward, I'm in Mexico City, sitting next to these girls at a cafe.
00:30:06.319 --> 00:30:07.599
They're right next to me, okay?
00:30:07.680 --> 00:30:08.559
They're at this table.
00:30:08.720 --> 00:30:14.240
And I hear this girl saying, I just wish there were spaces to talk about things that didn't have to do with business.
00:30:14.480 --> 00:30:17.119
And then she starts talking about the summer house reunion.
00:30:17.200 --> 00:30:25.680
And she goes, For example, like there's this crazy show right now, and all this stuff is happening, and I just feel like there's no space to talk about it, and I'm not gonna talk about it on my Instagram.
00:30:25.759 --> 00:30:35.359
And I literally like cut her off, and I'm like, I'm so sorry for eavesdropping, but like I literally created a space exactly like this, and we were freaking out.
00:30:35.440 --> 00:30:36.319
We're like, wait, what?
00:30:36.400 --> 00:30:42.160
We sat there for like an hour and a half talking about summer house and TV and all this stuff, became friends.
00:30:42.319 --> 00:30:43.680
I went to a wine bar with them.
00:30:43.839 --> 00:30:45.519
We follow each other on Instagram now.
00:30:45.599 --> 00:30:46.799
I'm supporting them, they're support.
00:30:47.039 --> 00:30:56.720
And I was just like, isn't that crazy that if I wouldn't have started that because I was so scared of like, oh, this is discrediting my work and da-da-da, I would have never made that connection.
00:30:56.799 --> 00:31:00.799
And I probably would have been sitting at that cafe being like, damn it, Chelsea, you should have created it.
00:31:00.880 --> 00:31:02.079
And I'm like, no, I did.
00:31:02.160 --> 00:31:03.200
And I sent her the link.
00:31:03.279 --> 00:31:08.319
I was like, we do this every month, and now I'm actually spot speaking about like fucking around and finding out.
00:31:08.480 --> 00:31:15.920
What I realized is I need to actually reshape this space because what's happening is there's a movie or show that's in the zeitgeist for a week or two.
00:31:16.000 --> 00:31:20.640
But if the calls are at the end of the month, then the the buzz has worn off a little bit.
00:31:20.799 --> 00:31:23.359
But like I needed to put it out there to find that out, right?
00:31:23.440 --> 00:31:29.839
Like I had to do it for three months to be like, okay, I'm seeing a pattern here that something gets a lot of traction in the beginning of the month.
00:31:30.000 --> 00:31:33.759
And if we talk about it at the end of the month, it's no longer in the headlines.
00:31:33.920 --> 00:31:36.640
But like I needed that data to reshape it.
00:31:36.720 --> 00:31:38.240
I wouldn't have been able to know that.
00:31:38.559 --> 00:31:40.880
And so now I get to, I fucked around and I found out.
00:31:41.039 --> 00:31:43.119
So now I'm like, okay, we're gonna revise the space.
00:31:43.200 --> 00:31:48.480
Maybe we're gonna have like a circle community, maybe we make it like a signal chat or telegram chat.
00:31:48.559 --> 00:31:50.079
Like, I don't know, I'm reshaping it.
00:31:50.240 --> 00:31:57.039
But the point is that was something that you could say has nothing to do with my business, doesn't connect, da-da-da.
00:31:57.200 --> 00:32:02.000
But then when you actually zoom in, it's like it actually shows a lot about my business and the way I think about the world.
00:32:02.240 --> 00:32:04.160
And like you can always find that through line.
00:32:04.240 --> 00:32:10.079
And it doesn't need to be like so directly branded and tied to your offers because it's an extension of you.
00:32:10.160 --> 00:32:13.119
And a lot of us have businesses that are an extension of us.
00:32:13.440 --> 00:32:14.240
A hundred percent.
00:32:14.400 --> 00:32:28.720
And I actually really liked what you said about this all being information and data, and how I think there's just a huge misconception that fucking around and finding out is this like chaotic thing and this like awful thing.
00:32:28.880 --> 00:32:33.119
And it means that you're not strategic or you're not an expert.
00:32:33.599 --> 00:32:36.480
But like this is coming from my academic background as well.
00:32:36.559 --> 00:32:44.559
Like when you're doing a PhD, there is that first year that you're in it, if especially if you're doing a research degree, you have to do exploratory research.
00:32:44.640 --> 00:32:50.480
And that's like the academic way of saying fucking around and finding out before you get your PhD candidacy.
00:32:50.799 --> 00:33:04.160
So if for anybody who thinks that this is like a really silly thing, like, oh, going on side quests is dumb, or like I shouldn't be wasting my time on it, actually that's where your most interesting insights can come from.
00:33:04.319 --> 00:33:08.319
And the only thing is that just like don't stay in the state of fucking around and finding out.
00:33:08.480 --> 00:33:14.160
Like give yourself like a time period where you're like, hey, I'm gonna like explore a bunch of random shit.
00:33:14.319 --> 00:33:19.279
And then at the end of it, I'm going to like figure out what those insights are and then do something about it.
00:33:19.519 --> 00:33:21.759
I think that's like the only thing.
00:33:22.160 --> 00:33:22.640
Yes.
00:33:22.880 --> 00:33:30.079
And it's now that you say that, I'm like, wait, I do think part of my undergrad degree, like they called it the exploratory phase.
00:33:30.319 --> 00:33:35.039
Because it's like, yeah, why would you want an 18-year-old to all of a sudden just know what they're doing for the rest of their lives?
00:33:35.119 --> 00:33:36.400
Like, you have to go explore.
00:33:36.640 --> 00:33:38.640
Also, think of literally school, right?
00:33:38.720 --> 00:33:43.519
Like, I always think about how it's so weird to me that adult life doesn't mimic high school.
00:33:43.599 --> 00:33:54.240
And what I mean by that is you rotate from like Spanish class to science to writing to recess to home economics to arithmetic, to all these things, right?
00:33:54.400 --> 00:33:57.119
Arithmetic, I've never used that word in my life to algebra, right?
00:33:57.200 --> 00:33:58.880
Like calculus, like whatever.
00:33:59.039 --> 00:34:00.799
And you got to see what you liked, right?
00:34:00.880 --> 00:34:06.799
You were like, oh wow, I'm really I gravitate towards the English writing classes, but like I hate AP history.
00:34:06.880 --> 00:34:08.559
I have no idea what's going on.
00:34:08.800 --> 00:34:13.920
That is a perfect example of like fucking around and finding out, like, you have to go take the classes to figure it out.
00:34:14.079 --> 00:34:16.719
So you need to also apply that to your business and your life.
00:34:16.800 --> 00:34:20.400
Like, maybe you need to go like take the business out of it for a second.
00:34:20.559 --> 00:34:22.159
I love that you took on painting.
00:34:22.320 --> 00:34:22.960
You know what I mean?
00:34:23.039 --> 00:34:25.039
Like, maybe you need to go take an improv class.
00:34:25.199 --> 00:34:36.480
Maybe you need to go take a dance class, like, go do something that has quote unquote nothing to do with your business because you'll start to see those glimmers of information that will actually guide you to your next step.
00:34:36.800 --> 00:34:37.519
Absolutely.
00:34:37.679 --> 00:34:45.679
And like, I think that's the best thing is that a lot of the times you can have the best planning, the most rigorous planning.
00:34:45.840 --> 00:34:53.119
And then life throws something your way, and you're like, that was way better than anything I could have possibly ever imagined or connected if I had just stuck to the plan.
00:34:53.360 --> 00:35:11.519
And the more that we can experiment and trust ourselves to experiment, and then trust ourselves to find the insight after we experiment to apply it to whatever it is we need, the better we as human beings become and the better our businesses become for anybody who's still listening for the business side of things.
00:35:11.920 --> 00:35:12.239
Yeah.
00:35:12.480 --> 00:35:15.920
And also, like a lot of people listening have personal brands.
00:35:16.239 --> 00:35:17.760
You're a human being, right?
00:35:17.920 --> 00:35:22.239
You have other interests outside of like your offer suite and your brand mission tagline.
00:35:22.480 --> 00:35:23.840
Like I promise you it.
00:35:24.000 --> 00:35:27.440
And I want you to talk about this a little bit because you are a brand strategist.
00:35:27.760 --> 00:35:32.239
Like, what do you think makes a strong brand?
00:35:32.400 --> 00:35:43.360
And I also want to ask you, how can we stand out in a sea of pretty bland brands that a lot of people like to play it safe because it's like, oh, I don't want to push the envelope a little bit.
00:35:43.440 --> 00:35:45.360
So I would love to hear your take on branding.
00:35:45.679 --> 00:35:46.079
Yeah.
00:35:46.320 --> 00:36:00.800
So I think branding gets a really bad rap because a lot of the times and the way that it's like taught, especially in corporate, is oh, well, figure out what other people want and then like shape shift yourself into what they want, which I think is really terrible advice.
00:36:01.039 --> 00:36:13.440
And so, in order to have like that full body yes experience of creating a brand that you actually want to live in that you're excited about and really reflects you, it has to come from personal philosophy and personal conviction.
00:36:13.679 --> 00:36:16.239
And the easiest, like those are fluffy words, right?
00:36:16.320 --> 00:36:21.840
And the easiest way that I think most folks can understand this is you just need to have an opinion, like a kind opinion.
00:36:22.000 --> 00:36:24.400
Like, don't be a dick about it.
00:36:24.639 --> 00:36:36.639
But like that's the first step is having a stance on something that isn't just like a global issue, but like within your sphere of knowledge and and expertise.
00:36:36.880 --> 00:36:44.480
And then from there, it's like, okay, can you build something that's like kind of out of the norm that addresses some of the issues that you care about?
00:36:44.559 --> 00:36:50.800
Because I think that's actually what makes a strong brand is can you create something that's different but is true to you?
00:36:51.039 --> 00:36:54.960
Um, as opposed to like, oh, pick the right fonts and pick the right colors or whatever.
00:36:55.119 --> 00:36:56.800
Cause like that's part of it.
00:36:56.880 --> 00:36:58.000
That's a very small part of it.
00:36:58.079 --> 00:37:03.360
And I I call that the cherry on top when we really just like use visuals to pattern break.
00:37:03.840 --> 00:37:06.719
But I think it it has to do with the projects.
00:37:06.800 --> 00:37:10.960
And a really good example of this is a legal firm that I worked with.
00:37:11.119 --> 00:37:15.599
And their whole thing was that we just don't like, we don't want to be like the old boys' club.
00:37:15.760 --> 00:37:21.119
Like it's always red and blue and white and like handcuffs and the gavel imagery.
00:37:21.199 --> 00:37:23.280
And it's like, okay, nobody wants to see that.
00:37:23.440 --> 00:37:30.480
And also because they worked on a lot of um like domestic violence cases, they're like, we don't like how people are treated like numbers.
00:37:30.639 --> 00:37:31.840
I'm like, okay, this is wonderful.
00:37:32.000 --> 00:37:34.480
Like these are great perspectives to have.
00:37:34.960 --> 00:37:36.719
And so what's the project to go with that?
00:37:36.800 --> 00:37:45.519
And so what they ended up doing, and it was so fucking cool, was they worked with like a counselor to make a trauma-informed onboarding process.
00:37:45.760 --> 00:37:52.079
And so, like, that's what you're going to be known for, is that you have these opinions, but you also have something to back it up.
00:37:52.320 --> 00:37:58.320
And then the cherry on top, when we like did the visual part of things as well, is that okay, then we won't make you look like the old boys' club.
00:37:58.400 --> 00:38:07.199
We're gonna make it look a little bit softer, a little bit more like gentle to the nervous system, especially if there are victims coming forward that need support.
00:38:07.360 --> 00:38:12.480
Like they don't want to be, you know, going to something that looks like they're gonna have to go to bat all over again.
00:38:12.559 --> 00:38:16.559
Like that sucks for anybody who suffered through severe trauma.
00:38:16.800 --> 00:38:24.480
So I think that's what makes a powerful brand and not just like prettying yourself up to be this thing that you're not.
00:38:25.679 --> 00:38:33.440
This is so helpful for me to hear because I just went through a rebrand last year and it took me a year, by the way, to rebrand.
00:38:33.599 --> 00:38:37.360
And it's because I was so focused on the visuals of it.
00:38:37.519 --> 00:38:40.320
And I was like, no, like I want the visuals to be different.
00:38:40.400 --> 00:38:52.239
I need the exactly your point, the fonts, the colors, like the shade of blue isn't actually representing the way I feel, and just like really wanting to present a certain way.
00:38:52.480 --> 00:39:01.840
And what I realized, like genuinely, was that a lot of people find me from my podcast, from being on podcasts and from guest speaking and programs.
00:39:02.000 --> 00:39:09.840
I've never had a person be like, I loved the fonts on your website, and I could just tell you had such a beautiful visual aesthetic, and I wanted to work with you.
00:39:10.000 --> 00:39:12.559
That might also be important if that was my line of work.
00:39:12.719 --> 00:39:13.360
You know what I mean?
00:39:13.440 --> 00:39:15.920
But like I'm a professional yapper.
00:39:16.000 --> 00:39:17.440
Okay, like this is my job.
00:39:17.599 --> 00:39:22.320
What counts is what I have to say, and that's what I needed to work on is like, what am I here to say?
00:39:22.480 --> 00:39:28.559
That's when I ended up finding out, oh, I need to launch a thinking lab because I do think we need nuanced spaces to think and imagine.
00:39:28.800 --> 00:39:30.719
That's what started to differentiate me.
00:39:30.800 --> 00:39:35.039
And the brand didn't crystallize until I had the idea for supernova.
00:39:35.119 --> 00:39:43.760
And I was like, isn't that crazy that I could not find the words or what I was trying to say until your point, I had something to say and I had a solution.
00:39:43.840 --> 00:39:49.679
And then the brand could be built around that versus let's pick three fonts and a header and a blah, blah, blah.
00:39:49.760 --> 00:39:51.679
And it's like, we were doing that for a whole year.
00:39:51.760 --> 00:39:59.679
And I was like, no wonder I was stuck because I was so focused on the visual side of it that I was kind of like flapping around with nothing to say.
00:40:00.239 --> 00:40:07.440
Yeah, and I think that's the issue with like just branding as a whole, which is like at this point, I'm like, am I trying to rebrand branding?
00:40:07.599 --> 00:40:10.719
Where it's like, you know, should is it just like philosophy?
00:40:10.880 --> 00:40:18.559
Should I start philosophy club where we just sit around and talk about our opinions in like very genitive, generative ways?
00:40:18.800 --> 00:40:20.800
Like, maybe that's what I should be doing, you know?
00:40:20.960 --> 00:40:25.920
Like that's literally I'm like, please do I'm like I want to like scream into the microphone.
00:40:26.000 --> 00:40:27.360
I'm like, yes, please do it.
00:40:27.599 --> 00:40:35.039
This is so fast because I really think branding was never like if you're not in that world, it's just not really explained properly.
00:40:35.199 --> 00:40:43.519
Like, I genuinely still think branding sometimes is like a color palette, a logo, and like how you present in public and like that's it.
00:40:43.599 --> 00:40:45.280
And it's like, no, no, no, no.
00:40:45.360 --> 00:40:47.440
You need you need to rebrand branding.
00:40:47.760 --> 00:41:04.079
Yeah, and like it, like it can be those things, but as someone who like cares about again, social good to some degree and making sure that we create businesses that feel sustainable to us, I think approaching branding in the way that I just described is a more effective way to do it.
00:41:04.320 --> 00:41:11.039
And I like I say this because I've also like fucked up in the past where I'm like, oh, like I gotta pick the right fonts for myself or I gotta pick the right colors.
00:41:11.119 --> 00:41:14.400
I'm like, no, like this does nothing for what I need.
00:41:14.480 --> 00:41:18.400
And it doesn't really represent me in the way that I thought it would.
00:41:18.639 --> 00:41:27.599
Um, and so whenever I started just talking about my point of view and like my perspective and the projects that I've built around those things, like that's what's actually landing me work.
00:41:27.760 --> 00:41:40.159
Like that's what's actually bringing me the interest in conversations and people that I'm excited to work with and not my not my fonts and colors and vibe or whatever it is that people think branding needs to be.
00:41:40.639 --> 00:41:48.320
That's something I wanted to ask you is like, what is one of your strongest philosophies or kind opinions as you call it right now?
00:41:48.800 --> 00:42:00.639
Yeah, that's I think it's always like project dependent and it like changes depending on what I'm working on, which is like, I think that's also a very important conversation where like you can like change your mind in public.
00:42:00.719 --> 00:42:02.000
Like that's totally fine.
00:42:02.079 --> 00:42:04.800
Like, I've also changed my opinion on what branding needs to be.
00:42:04.880 --> 00:42:14.239
Cause when I first started, I'm like, yeah, you totally need to make sure that like everything looks like totally perfect from the outside because otherwise, like you don't look professional, whatever.
00:42:14.320 --> 00:42:15.840
Like that was what I started with.
00:42:16.000 --> 00:42:24.800
But as I like evolved and developed my process, um, I remembered thinking, like, okay, why is everybody coming to me for a logo?
00:42:24.880 --> 00:42:27.119
Like, that's not doing shit for your business.
00:42:27.360 --> 00:42:29.039
And so I ended up like that.
00:42:29.119 --> 00:42:35.519
Was one of the biggest, I think, turning points for my branding business was when I realized that.
00:42:35.599 --> 00:42:36.800
And I was like, you know what?
00:42:36.960 --> 00:42:37.599
Screw this.
00:42:37.760 --> 00:42:40.480
We're gonna remove logos from the conversations altogether.
00:42:40.559 --> 00:42:42.880
And I'm going to launch a service called logoless branding.
00:42:42.960 --> 00:42:45.039
And I'm just not going to fucking make you one.
00:42:45.199 --> 00:42:49.920
And like, you don't get one until you sort out all of these other things that are more important.
00:42:50.000 --> 00:42:52.880
And then maybe, just maybe, I will make you one.
00:42:53.440 --> 00:42:54.239
I love that.
00:42:54.320 --> 00:42:57.440
Like, even that is such a like zigzag concept.
00:42:57.519 --> 00:43:01.360
And everyone that listens to this podcast knows I love talking about zigging when people are zagging.
00:43:01.440 --> 00:43:04.559
Is like, what is everyone doing, and how can you do the opposite?
00:43:04.800 --> 00:43:17.360
If everyone wants a logo and is obsessed with making logos that quote unquote represent them, it's like, no, I'm gonna show you that you actually don't need this stamp logo, whatever you think it is, that is gonna skyrocket your visibility.
00:43:17.519 --> 00:43:18.719
You need to have something to say.
00:43:18.880 --> 00:43:23.920
And that's what I'm gonna help you discover is like what is your literal brand, not just the logo.
00:43:24.079 --> 00:43:26.639
Which actually brings me to my next question.
00:43:26.880 --> 00:43:36.320
A lot of people, including myself, so I'm asking this very selfishly, will launch a brand and then like six to eight months later, change their mind, right?
00:43:36.400 --> 00:43:40.320
And all of a sudden they're like, I feel like this is not on brand anymore, right?
00:43:40.400 --> 00:43:43.440
We hear these words, this is off brand or this is on brand.
00:43:43.679 --> 00:43:46.639
And we start kind of moving through the world with that mentality.
00:43:46.800 --> 00:43:58.880
Like I've even done this where there's sometimes I want to do like silly comedic skits, or I don't know, something that I feel, oh, that's not really my brand yet, or people don't see me that way.
00:43:58.960 --> 00:43:59.760
So am I gonna have to?
00:44:00.159 --> 00:44:01.119
Do another rebrand?
00:44:01.199 --> 00:44:01.920
Like, I just did it.
00:44:02.000 --> 00:44:02.639
You know what I mean?
00:44:02.719 --> 00:44:13.119
And so, what do you what do you say to people that kind of experience that that are like they're almost scared of rebranding because they're like, I feel like I'm just going to end up rebranding every six to 12 months because I changed my mind so often.
00:44:13.519 --> 00:44:17.119
Yeah, I think then my question would be like, what are you doing for each rebrand?
00:44:17.199 --> 00:44:23.599
Like, is it like just this huge like lift where you're trying to like change the exterior of your business?
00:44:23.760 --> 00:44:30.480
Cause I think anytime I quote unquote rebrand, most of the time I'm just like publicly leading with like a different opinion.
00:44:30.559 --> 00:44:33.440
And I let people know, I'm like, hey, I've actually changed my mind on this thing.
00:44:33.679 --> 00:44:42.000
And like, here are the reasons why, like, even with logoless branding, I was like, look, I really don't think this is what's a logo is not what's moving your the needle in your business.
00:44:42.079 --> 00:44:44.719
Like that's not what's going to land you your next client.
00:44:44.880 --> 00:44:56.079
Um, and so I think the more we're able to just like yap about it and like talk about it and explain what the shift was and why we made the shift, I think that's all we really need to do.
00:44:56.159 --> 00:44:59.920
And just like do that each time you feel like you need to rebrand.
00:45:00.239 --> 00:45:02.719
Because otherwise, yeah, it's it's just like a huge lift.
00:45:02.800 --> 00:45:08.559
You feel like you need to like, oh, I do I need to do another photo shoot or do I need to like change my colors yet again?
00:45:08.880 --> 00:45:19.519
Um, and like really it's just about having being comfortable with a public opinion and leading with that and then changing it when you as a person also change and evolve.
00:45:20.239 --> 00:45:41.360
Okay, but what if what if what if you do feel like, okay, I have this new opinion, but I I do feel like the colors and the fonts and the vibes need to be changed a little bit because it is more, let's let's say your brand was more like um elevated and luxurious and minimalistic.
00:45:41.519 --> 00:45:50.559
And now you're like, I kind of want to be like quippy and spunky and like a little more like silly, and like let's say, I don't know, the the concept I'm thinking of is more like Gen Z.
00:45:50.800 --> 00:46:05.440
And there's those types of videos right now that are very, you know, like a little meme in the corner and like clicking, and like I'm thinking of those certain videos on um Instagram that people are like explaining something and it's very like looks like a Gen Z vibe, but like that's not how people have seen your brand.
00:46:05.599 --> 00:46:12.960
Your brand has been very like minimalistic slides and like one big inspirational quote on a tile, like whatever it is.
00:46:13.119 --> 00:46:31.519
And I think that's the part again that I'm speaking from for myself and other people that I get caught up with is like, oh, I just feel like the like what I'm saying is not actually matching the visuals, but I can't just be spending another five thousand dollars to your point on like rebrand and new fonts and new colors, but there is like a bit of a mismatch.
00:46:31.599 --> 00:46:33.360
Like, what do you what do you think about that?
00:46:33.679 --> 00:46:40.719
Okay, in that case, like the lowest lift change that I often use is a photo shoot.
00:46:40.800 --> 00:46:45.280
And it doesn't like if you don't have the budget for a photo shoot, it does not have to be fancy.
00:46:45.440 --> 00:46:54.400
I have seen people do it with a white wall in their house in an outfit that they feel like represents them in poses that represent them.
00:46:54.639 --> 00:46:57.199
Like that's I think the easiest way to go about it.
00:46:57.280 --> 00:47:13.679
And if you're on social media, like if you're doing like talking head videos, like even changing that a little bit where, you know, maybe your outfit's a little bit more fun, or maybe like, you know, you pick a font, even if it's like a font that's available on Instagram, for example, that is a little bit more like playful and fun.
00:47:13.760 --> 00:47:15.920
Like that's a good enough start to get going.
00:47:16.079 --> 00:47:22.320
And if you feel like that's something that you can stick with and you're excited about, then I would say go for the full rebrand.
00:47:22.480 --> 00:47:28.800
But I just I don't brand people for the visual part unless you've been doing something consistently for a while.
00:47:28.960 --> 00:47:39.760
Because again, otherwise you're just in the exploratory phase, you're still fucking around and finding out, and there's no point in investing like a ton of energy and effort into the visual side of things just yet.
00:47:40.239 --> 00:47:40.639
Yeah.
00:47:40.800 --> 00:48:11.199
And I think there's something I've learned being in so many spaces with other brand strategists, is like to your point, there's ways to do it in uh micro revisions, like even picking a different font to use in your carousels, but is not like totally you know different than like it's just like a fun way to update it or like adding a sticker or two, or for example, with me, it's memes where I'm like, I love memes, but I don't know that it matches the like elevated version of my brand that I recently rolled out.
00:48:11.280 --> 00:48:16.400
And it's like, can we not take a an elevated background and then like put the meme on top?
00:48:16.480 --> 00:48:19.519
You know, so it's like you have the slides, but then you still have it.
00:48:19.599 --> 00:48:32.880
Like, there's a way to do both, and it's it's really an exercise in like kind of coloring outside the lines a little bit to your point, like fucking around and finding out of like, is there a way to blend these things that I feel are different?
00:48:33.039 --> 00:48:37.599
And also, maybe now that I'm like verbally processing this, is like maybe they're not all that different.
00:48:37.760 --> 00:48:43.039
Like, that's kind of the point of, in my opinion, branding is like showing people you can be both.
00:48:43.199 --> 00:48:49.519
I can be elevated and silly, I can have really strong opinions and also like a really silly goose way of explaining them.
00:48:49.599 --> 00:48:53.360
Like, it doesn't have to be either or, and I think that's the trap we get into with branding.
00:48:53.679 --> 00:48:54.000
Mm-hmm.
00:48:54.159 --> 00:48:54.400
Yeah.
00:48:54.480 --> 00:49:00.159
And I I like what you said about just like the micro changes, because it's it's basically like microdosing anything.
00:49:00.239 --> 00:49:05.599
Like, if you're not comfortable with taking a huge step, just take a tiny step and see how you feel about it.
00:49:05.760 --> 00:49:14.000
And then like do that over and over and over again until you're like comfortable enough to make like a more concrete decision, you know?
00:49:14.559 --> 00:49:16.079
Yes, a hundred percent.
00:49:16.320 --> 00:49:43.840
Well, one of the final things I want to talk to you about is how to bacon whimsy into your process because I know from experience again that there was a time in my life where the work I was doing felt so deep and serious and critical that I almost started to become like miserable in my day-to-day because I was like, you know, to do serious work, I have to be serious, and serious people do not mess around and I need to be sh- you know what I mean?
00:49:43.920 --> 00:49:49.199
Like this really honestly kind of like miserable attitude that I was like, this is not fun.
00:49:49.920 --> 00:50:05.519
Same and like being again, like long, long time ago, but like being in environmental research with the climate falling apart, can you imagine how exhausting and how like just unenthused you can become when it feels like nothing you're doing matters?
00:50:05.760 --> 00:50:06.000
Right.
00:50:06.239 --> 00:50:11.280
And so coming from that experience, I'm like, okay, look, we cannot forego whimsy.
00:50:11.360 --> 00:50:14.320
It is mandatory, as a matter of fact.
00:50:14.559 --> 00:50:20.159
Um, and so for me, it I I really look towards what Japan is doing.
00:50:20.400 --> 00:50:23.840
And like, I think they do whimsy incredibly well.
00:50:23.920 --> 00:50:31.840
And I think it's a response to how their corporate culture is, which is very strict and like very limiting for your personal expression.
00:50:31.920 --> 00:50:37.440
And so they find whimsy in all the ways that they can in order to balance that out.
00:50:37.599 --> 00:50:45.360
And so my response to that is that serious problems don't always need super serious solutions.
00:50:45.760 --> 00:50:52.800
And that the more fun that you can have, the wider the adoption can be because play is such a good Trojan horse.
00:50:52.960 --> 00:50:55.679
So, an example, an example.
00:50:55.920 --> 00:51:02.159
Um I remember the last time I was in Japan, I was like in a 7-Eleven, I needed an onigiri just for a snack.
00:51:02.239 --> 00:51:08.239
And I'm like, what are these little like stickers that have like little onigiri characters with like a tear on them?
00:51:08.400 --> 00:51:16.159
And so I did some research when I like got back to the hotel and I was like, oh shoot, these are like food waste stickers to like prevent food waste.
00:51:16.400 --> 00:51:29.440
And so what was going on was that apparently there's just like a lot of waste that happens where it's like all this fresh food eventually, like, you know, it has the best before date, but people like felt really weird about like purchasing it, like there's a stigma surrounding it.
00:51:29.599 --> 00:51:35.599
And so they're like, Well, we need to make a fun way to like get people to like purchase these things because there's technically nothing wrong with it.
00:51:35.679 --> 00:51:39.360
And so they made these cute stickers where it's like, oh, you have to rescue me.
00:51:41.519 --> 00:51:43.760
And like it actually worked.
00:51:43.920 --> 00:51:46.880
Like people, like the adoption was there.
00:51:47.039 --> 00:51:51.920
There was like tons of food waste that was actually like saved from landfill.
00:51:52.079 --> 00:51:55.360
And so they're now rolling it out to like other other things.
00:51:55.519 --> 00:52:05.280
And I was just like, it's proof that you really don't need like super serious solutions to like serious problems like food wastage and like logistics issues, you know?
00:52:05.760 --> 00:52:07.199
Oh my god, I love that.
00:52:07.280 --> 00:52:14.159
Now I'm like thinking, I'm like, yeah, what can I make a more playful, like you said, Trojan horse to to build that bridge?
00:52:14.239 --> 00:52:21.599
Because there's something about curiosity and open-mindedness that is missing from a lot of the online spaces.
00:52:21.760 --> 00:52:24.079
That it's like, can we gamify it?
00:52:24.159 --> 00:52:24.880
Can we make it fun?
00:52:25.039 --> 00:52:26.320
Can we bake in whimsy?
00:52:26.400 --> 00:52:28.079
Can we make it a playful challenge?
00:52:28.239 --> 00:52:32.320
Versus like, yeah, we have to have this serious conversation because we're doing serious work.
00:52:32.480 --> 00:52:33.360
We need serious results.
00:52:33.599 --> 00:52:35.119
It's like that's clearly not working.
00:52:35.280 --> 00:52:36.960
If it was working, we would have done it.
00:52:37.199 --> 00:52:42.159
We would have solved all of the problems by oh my god.
00:52:42.400 --> 00:52:47.519
Actually, you're bringing you I totally forgot this example too, is like, you know, there's a whole debate on AI.
00:52:47.760 --> 00:52:50.000
And I've told this story before on my podcast.
00:52:50.079 --> 00:52:53.679
Like, earlier this year, I was like super power user using it for everything.
00:52:53.840 --> 00:52:58.000
And I knew, like, okay, I know I shouldn't be leaning on it this much, but like whatever.
00:52:58.639 --> 00:53:08.480
Go on threads, and someone created this little like mini zine that was just really like five to seven slides, but it was just so catchy.
00:53:08.559 --> 00:53:10.239
Like the the cover really caught me.
00:53:10.320 --> 00:53:12.559
It was in some type of like cool font and letters.
00:53:12.719 --> 00:53:27.920
It was really easy to read, like they made the writing look like uh handwriting, and then it even said like the data, it would show real scientific data backed by like academic research, and then it would say the translation and be like, translation, this is poo-poo.
00:53:28.000 --> 00:53:28.559
You know what I mean?
00:53:28.639 --> 00:53:32.159
That you're like, okay, this is like it was just funny to read it.
00:53:32.320 --> 00:53:34.239
Like, like, don't use this, this is poo-poo.
00:53:34.320 --> 00:53:37.360
And then you would keep going, and it's like, yep, this is poo-poo again or whatever, right?
00:53:37.519 --> 00:53:45.280
So just silly and funny, but it got me to read the academic research that I would have absolutely not found myself.
00:53:45.440 --> 00:53:56.079
And so then using this playful format and then also a playful way of explaining the academic research in a funny way actually got me to change my mind.
00:53:56.239 --> 00:53:58.639
Like that was one of the first things where I was like, you know what?
00:53:58.800 --> 00:54:05.840
I'm gonna go on a little cleanse and see if I can like only use it for when I really need it and see if I can take a break.
00:54:05.920 --> 00:54:09.199
And I swear, like that was the thing that got me to change my mind.
00:54:09.440 --> 00:54:17.440
And then something else I posted on Instagram stories, and someone reached out with curiosity and said, Oh, I'm curious about XYZ.
00:54:17.519 --> 00:54:18.559
Like, have you read these studies?
00:54:18.639 --> 00:54:21.199
And I read them and I was like, Oh, now my mind has changed.
00:54:21.440 --> 00:54:26.159
If that person would have come in my DMs and said, like, that's fucking stupid, I can't believe you do that.
00:54:26.239 --> 00:54:27.199
Like, I'm blocking you.
00:54:27.280 --> 00:54:29.360
This I would have had so much shame.
00:54:29.440 --> 00:54:33.599
I would have actually gotten defensive and doubled down because no one wants to look wrong.
00:54:33.840 --> 00:54:35.679
And I think this is such a good reminder.
00:54:35.840 --> 00:54:41.360
Like, if you lead with play and curiosity and silliness, like you will put people's guards down.
00:54:41.440 --> 00:54:43.440
And that is actually what enacts change.
00:54:43.679 --> 00:54:43.920
Yeah.
00:54:44.000 --> 00:54:47.039
And that's, I mean, that's also what you teach in Pitch Perfect.
00:54:47.119 --> 00:54:52.719
Like, how can we make sure that people like receive the information appropriately?
00:54:52.800 --> 00:54:55.199
And like, this is just another version of that.
00:54:55.280 --> 00:55:06.880
Like, how can you make sure people receive and are willing to implement it instead of feeling like scared or defensive or like guilted or shamed into trying to do the right thing, which never works, by the way.
00:55:06.960 --> 00:55:08.559
Like, that just does not work.
00:55:09.519 --> 00:55:10.239
That's the other thing.
00:55:10.320 --> 00:55:13.039
I was like, guys, can can we get examples of one that's worked?
00:55:13.119 --> 00:55:13.840
Like, let me know.
00:55:14.000 --> 00:55:15.039
It's never worked.
00:55:15.199 --> 00:55:18.000
I've never, it's never worked on me, it's never worked for me.
00:55:18.079 --> 00:55:21.920
I've never seen change from like, hey, like the idiots, da-da-da.
00:55:22.000 --> 00:55:23.840
I'm never like, wow, you're right.
00:55:23.920 --> 00:55:24.480
I'm an idiot.
00:55:24.559 --> 00:55:25.519
Let me change my mind.
00:55:26.000 --> 00:55:27.599
Self-identify as an idiot.
00:55:27.760 --> 00:55:30.079
Like, honestly, like, what are you guys doing?
00:55:30.239 --> 00:55:38.079
Like, and I understand it comes from a place of like desire for good, but it's like, yo, it is not landing the way that you think it is landing.
00:55:38.639 --> 00:55:39.280
It's not.
00:55:39.360 --> 00:55:42.639
And actually, it brings me to the concept of audacity.
00:55:42.800 --> 00:55:45.760
You just brought up Pitch Perfect, which is now Audacity.
00:55:45.920 --> 00:55:54.639
And the reason I renamed it that is because I realized we need to have a little more audacity, but it's being, it's actually what you were talking about, rebranding branding.
00:55:54.719 --> 00:56:04.159
I'm like, I'm trying to rebrand Audacity because I think people have the wrong word, the wrong connotation, thinking like middle fingers, slam dunks, like reckless behavior.
00:56:04.239 --> 00:56:05.440
I need to be audacious.
00:56:05.599 --> 00:56:13.920
And I said this in my um lore drop episode about audacity, but the etymology of audacity is to be bold, courageous, and daring.
00:56:14.079 --> 00:56:14.400
Okay.
00:56:14.639 --> 00:56:18.639
So if we are bold, courageous, and daring, you can make that your own flavor.
00:56:18.800 --> 00:56:26.800
And I feel like that's what you're talking about with soft rebellion is like you can be rebellious and angry at things, but do it in a way that works for you.
00:56:26.960 --> 00:56:30.400
And that's something that I'm trying to also show people with being audacious.
00:56:30.559 --> 00:56:33.599
Like I'm I'm audacious in a way that works for me.
00:56:33.679 --> 00:56:40.639
And like I look a lot at like collaborations and constellation networking that energizes me.
00:56:40.800 --> 00:56:48.960
And I'm audacious in asking people that are quote unquote out of my league in terms of finances or following to take a swing.
00:56:49.199 --> 00:56:51.519
But it I'm not a reckless person, right?
00:56:51.599 --> 00:56:58.079
I'm not rude, I'm not um, I'm not brash, I'm not brosin, I'm not like I don't care about what you have to do.
00:56:58.159 --> 00:57:02.480
I'm I'm actually extremely intentional and thoughtful about my audaciousness.
00:57:02.639 --> 00:57:10.000
And so my question to you, now completing pitch perfect, which is now audacity, like, what do you think of being audacious?
00:57:10.079 --> 00:57:12.239
And like, what did you take from it?
00:57:12.320 --> 00:57:14.639
And like, how are you applying it in your own way?
00:57:15.039 --> 00:57:27.519
Yeah, I think when it comes to being more audacious, for me, I think when it came to business, it had like I didn't have any issues with being audacious within like the business realm itself.
00:57:27.679 --> 00:57:35.519
But for whatever reason, there was a disconnect in being audacious for like these other like side quests or personal interests where I'm like, I'm really interested in these things.
00:57:35.599 --> 00:57:37.119
I just like don't know anything about it.
00:57:37.280 --> 00:57:39.199
Like, how do you paint on a giant canvas?
00:57:39.280 --> 00:57:40.480
How do you stretch a canvas?
00:57:40.559 --> 00:57:41.760
How do you even get started?
00:57:41.840 --> 00:57:44.159
Like, I literally have no idea.
00:57:44.480 --> 00:57:48.400
And there's a lot of artists and painters I've like looked up to for a really long time.
00:57:48.559 --> 00:57:53.039
I'm like, wait a minute, I could just message them and ask.
00:57:53.199 --> 00:57:54.960
You know, they're also just people.
00:57:55.280 --> 00:57:59.440
And I just have no idea why I just didn't make that connection before.
00:57:59.599 --> 00:58:10.000
Um, and I think part of it is that when it comes to like reaching out and like making connections, like I think a lot of the times it's taught as like a sales skill.
00:58:10.079 --> 00:58:12.079
And I'm like, oh well, I'm not trying to like sell anything.
00:58:12.159 --> 00:58:13.920
Like, why would I reach out to these people?
00:58:14.079 --> 00:58:16.800
But I'm like, no, we're just trying to make connections, we're just trying to talk.
00:58:16.880 --> 00:58:22.559
Like, I want to, you know, become a more creative person and like dive deeper into my creative interests.
00:58:22.719 --> 00:58:24.960
And I think that's something that they would also respond to.
00:58:25.039 --> 00:58:36.960
So yeah, like I think with my audaciousness, it it has actually applied more to all of my creative endeavors as opposed to to my existing business, which I think is like the coolest thing.
00:58:37.280 --> 00:58:44.559
I love that I remember when we were doing our closing call, and you're like, I'm actually just gonna reach out to this artist and ask about the large canvas techniques.
00:58:44.639 --> 00:58:54.480
And I was like, that's exactly what I mean is like you get to make it your own flavor the same exact way you get to create your brand in your own flavor and have your soft rebellion in a way that works for you.
00:58:54.559 --> 00:58:58.239
Like, I just feel like there's so much overlap in what we're talking about.
00:58:58.400 --> 00:59:00.639
I'm just so happy to hear that you're like, oh, this is fun.
00:59:00.719 --> 00:59:02.239
Like, that's exactly what it is.
00:59:02.320 --> 00:59:09.440
Like, it should, I think pitching and audacity and reaching out felt very like corporate and overwhelming for a while.
00:59:09.519 --> 00:59:16.480
Of like, yeah, I have to make a list of 50 targets and find 50 emails and research 50 people and write a hundred emails.
00:59:16.559 --> 00:59:20.159
And I'm like, no, like, go ask your favorite artists about their techniques.
00:59:20.320 --> 00:59:21.840
Like, that is being audacious.
00:59:21.920 --> 00:59:23.039
Like, that is so fun to me.
00:59:23.119 --> 00:59:28.079
And if anything, it it actually, speaking of imagination, it's made me realize, like, what am I like?
00:59:28.159 --> 00:59:33.760
Why am I not reaching out to different people that has nothing to do with, like, oh, are they gonna help me grow my business?
00:59:34.079 --> 00:59:34.719
Example right now.
00:59:34.800 --> 00:59:35.920
I'm looking at this book.
00:59:36.079 --> 00:59:39.920
This author I found at this lit, like alt lit um bookshop.
00:59:40.079 --> 00:59:42.639
I'm like, I've never heard of them, but this book is really interesting.
00:59:42.800 --> 00:59:44.239
It's the concept is really interesting.
00:59:44.400 --> 00:59:46.400
Why don't I reach out to them and have them on the podcast?
00:59:46.559 --> 00:59:47.599
Like, you know what I mean?
00:59:47.679 --> 00:59:49.199
Like, how did you come up with this concept?
00:59:49.280 --> 00:59:50.000
How did you write it?
00:59:50.079 --> 00:59:50.800
How did you publish it?
00:59:50.880 --> 00:59:52.320
Like, I found this in Mexico City.
00:59:52.400 --> 00:59:54.559
How did it like that's interesting to me?
00:59:54.639 --> 00:59:59.119
So why would I not follow that path and be audacious and just ask this person that I don't know?
00:59:59.280 --> 01:00:03.840
And that's exciting, and that's what makes this whole process actually sustainable, too.
01:00:04.400 --> 01:00:05.280
Absolutely.
01:00:05.519 --> 01:00:06.800
Oh, I love that so much.
01:00:06.960 --> 01:00:09.440
I zigging when everyone else is zagging.
01:00:09.519 --> 01:00:10.800
That's what it's all about.
01:00:11.119 --> 01:00:12.400
That is what it's all about.
01:00:12.559 --> 01:00:14.000
You're rebranding branding.
01:00:14.079 --> 01:00:15.519
I'm rebranding Audacity.
01:00:15.679 --> 01:00:16.800
I love that we had this conversation.
01:00:16.960 --> 01:00:18.320
Like, truly is perfect time.
01:00:18.480 --> 01:00:24.000
So, speaking of branding and being audacious, where can people find you and work with you?
01:00:24.320 --> 01:00:26.239
Yeah, so there's there's a few ways.
01:00:26.559 --> 01:00:32.400
I do one-on-one work, um, which you can email me at any time at elisha at the dailyatelier.co.
01:00:32.559 --> 01:00:36.639
But I will also be running a soft rebellions cohort.
01:00:36.960 --> 01:00:40.960
Um, the next one, I believe, is going to actually be in January.
01:00:41.119 --> 01:00:59.760
So if you want to start the year right, you want to learn how to lean into your opinions in a kind way and micro dose rejection with side quests relating to that opinion without any pressure of like turning into this big thing or this big project or this big mission, um, then I would love to see you there.
01:00:59.840 --> 01:01:06.480
And I do have a free Soft Rebellions resource where you can start figuring out what those micro opinions even are.
01:01:06.639 --> 01:01:10.400
So I think Chelsea will drop that in the in the link somewhere.
01:01:10.719 --> 01:01:11.679
Yeah, absolutely.
01:01:11.760 --> 01:01:13.440
I will have all of that in the show notes.
01:01:13.519 --> 01:01:14.639
I will have everything in there.
01:01:14.719 --> 01:01:20.159
And I think I just want to leave everyone with the message like, go on a side quest right now, go fuck around and find out.
01:01:20.239 --> 01:01:23.840
And is there any final last pep talks you want to give the listeners?
01:01:24.400 --> 01:01:26.880
Yeah, be your weirdest self.
01:01:27.039 --> 01:01:37.519
I think that is probably the best advice I could give at this point in time is the weirder my side quests and the weirder my stories, the better the response.
01:01:37.760 --> 01:01:40.000
So amen.
01:01:40.639 --> 01:01:41.280
Amen.
01:01:41.599 --> 01:01:42.400
Love to hear it.
01:01:42.559 --> 01:01:43.360
This is incredible.
01:01:43.519 --> 01:01:44.960
Thank you so much for coming on, Alicia.
01:01:45.119 --> 01:01:46.639
I am ready to get weird AF.
01:01:47.119 --> 01:01:48.159
Awesome.