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Good day.
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We're here today at Inflections, the Leadership Transition Podcast, is where senior leaders candidly share their learnings, navigating significant inflection points in their careers and involving their businesses.
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The moments that tested them, what they got right, what they got wrong, what they would do over if they could, if they could, if they could, and what they'd pass on.
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I'm pleased and honored to introduce Don Grigori as one of our early guests on inflections.
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Don is chief operating officer of First Factory, a multinational software solutions provider in New York and Costa Rica.
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During his tenure, First Factory has been honored on the Inc.
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5000 list of America's fastest growing private companies for five consecutive years and recognized as an Inc.
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magazine power partner.
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Under Don's leadership, they have also become carbon neutral and maintain a lifetime employee net promoter score of more than 70 points.
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Don is a highly self-aware visionary change agent, and we're gonna talk about a big transition he made upon agreeing to accept the role at First Factory as chief operating officer, having spent several years as a client of First Factories.
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And we're gonna start off with some with some conversation about what Don thought he was getting into as a from a client perspective versus what he actually experienced in the first 12 months.
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Don, welcome.
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And thank you for being a guest on Inflections.
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It's much appreciated.
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So Don, let's start.
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You you had been a client of First Factories for some time in your earlier position.
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And so you clearly had a sense of the company, the culture from a client perspective.
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But I wonder if you could talk first of all about the first six or twelve months and a little bit about what you thought you were going into versus what you actually experienced in what was obviously a big transition, an inflection point for you.
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Sure.
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So I had spent 18 years at Kaplan Test Prep and Emission.
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And for the last eight years, um I had multiple roles, but um oversaw all the custom applications, the things that were needed to schedule classes, assign teachers, uh run operations nationally, and then also was essentially product owner uh of the the marketing website for all the different divisions of the company.
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And so First Factory came to me uh during that time.
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And I was really a point where I was I was a stakeholder approving work getting done on these applications before taking it over, and there were no custom um homegrown solutions at the time.
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And so we had this idea for one, and I just really wanted to work with a company that was a bit smaller than some of our larger outsourcing partners because I knew that those resources would get pulled from me, probably for more higher priority uh projects.
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But I also needed a company that would be patient with me as a stakeholder because I, while I understood technology from a user perspective and I understood how to prioritize, I didn't really understand how software was made.
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And so when I worked with First Factory, it was really clear to me that it wasn't just about the technical skill that they had, but there was a uh a generosity, patience, and then there was also a willingness for them to learn.
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So there was a point in time over those years where my lead engineer at Kaplan wanted to build an application in the language Scala, which Twitter was built on at the time.
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And no one on our team knew Scala, and nobody in Costa Rica at First Factory knew Scala.
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And Jason, who's the founder and CEO, said, Well, I'll find somebody, we'll bring them in for a while, we'll train up our team.
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Uh, and they were willing to do that.
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And so, myself, my lead uh engineer, we flew down to Costa Rica.
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We all had training and onboarding, talked about the project, and they kept this consultant on to help train the team over the course of a few months and you know, supported that application for a couple of years.
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And I just I hadn't seen that before.
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But what was really, you know, insightful to me was the people in Costa Rica, you know, it's kind of like the utopian, the way we think back in like the 1950s America, where you know everybody on your block and you're family-oriented and um and your people go on vacation like with their mothers and and their families.
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And there was just still this sense of respect and accountability to each other that I hadn't seen in other places.
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And Jason was at a point where you know, he had started the company, it's now 26 plus years old, um, where he was stagnant and you know, kind of needed to figure out, you know, what the next effort would be to scale.
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And he was thinking of hiring a salesperson.
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But with the diversity of experience that I had at Kaplan, and we can talk about that later, um, he was thinking that, well, maybe I could have Don Run operations and I'll learn sales.
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Um, and that was really what happened.
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And then we evaluated each other to make sure that like I could add value and then get value out of it.
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Um, and when I joined the company, it was 30 people.
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And at our high mark um about a year and a half ago, we were at you know, 220 uh or so, keeping a large bench for projects.
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But what was so I knew that I could help them kind of formalize operations, uh, develop teams uh and identify, you know, who the future leaders were.
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Um, but what was a challenge for me, I wasn't expecting, was you know, I was used to just managing people.
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Uh, and here we now like our people are our product.
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And therefore, like our we are a service business.
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And so when you're dealing with a client, and you know, again, small company, not a lot of diversity.
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There were no designers on the team, there were no project managers, there were no business analysts.
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So, like when a client said, Hey, we need design, I was like, okay, I mean, I am a bit design savvy, but I'm not a designer.
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I learned how to use sketch and I learned wireframing, you know, at a level that I hadn't before.
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And I built it and understood what people needed.
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And then once that was a proven line of business and we knew what we wanted and how we wanted to manage it, then we would hire somebody and put them in.
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And I think that was the big difference for me.
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And it really kind of changed, you know, how I view leadership really as you know, the a servant to the team, is Jason and I will always take on the burden first to make sure that it is a worthwhile effort.
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Like, do we want to go down this line, understand what the needs are, understand how to deliver, and then create kind of the playbook to bring someone on to then own that pillar after us.
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And I think that's just earned a lot of, you know, uh respect from the team.
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And they also know that we're willing to get our hands dirty when things get difficult or when they're overwhelmed.
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And I'll say, look, I'll do the data entry on that.
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If you're gonna miss a deadline, just give it to me.
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Or I know how to do that because I've done it before.
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I'll help you through this project.
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And I think that really lends credibility to lead for teams, especially those that, you know, are much more junior.
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They don't get to often experience that, but I think it's in a model of a leader that they um, you know, should have in mind as they grow in their careers and hopefully pass that off.
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I love how you role model authenticity, transparency, and it sounds like the culture of First Factory is frankly somewhat unique, where you talked so much about their generosity and their patience and interest in learning and um very impressive.
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I'm I'm assuming that you've worked hard to build on that culture and wonder about you've been in you've been there now for how long?
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Nine years.
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Nine years.
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Good for you, good for you.
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What's changed in terms of the culture?
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Or perhaps a better way to put it is what's evolved?
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What is what have you built on on an already so what sounds to be a very solid foundation?
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Yeah, I think change is is fine.
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I think people are afraid of change, but you know, when you look around, you know, change is a natural process, right?
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I mean, it's the root of all growth.
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Uh, you know, a tree grows, you know, a fruit, fruit ripens, turns colors, like, you know, seeds drop.
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I mean, everywhere around us is changing.
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And we're often, I think, uh, afraid of change.
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So that is one thing as well, is that you know, as the future, you know, gets more unpredictable at times, or we face, you know, hard moments as a company or as an employee on a project, um, it is bringing that, you know, fear of change to reality and say, okay, let's identify what is you know unfamiliar with with that experience.
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What do you feel unprepared for?
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You know, let's learn it and be able to address it.
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I don't think that was a thinking of mine early on, right?
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Especially as business grows, you know, when when someone new comes in and there's some new ingredients, things they're a little slow to to take hold, right?
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It's like the foundation of the building, you know, you know, you're like, what are they doing?
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Six months, I don't see anything.
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And then all of a sudden, three weeks later, like five stories are up, and you're like, what happened?
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Yeah.
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So, but after that, you just expect the growth to continue.
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And at some point, you know, it's kind of like, you know, like the Dunbar principle where they say you can only remember like 150 people's like names and relationships.
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But you know, there's there's every company is different, but it's going to find different tiers that are are new challenges, whether it's the size of the company from an employee number or it's a size of a company or you know, the number of clients, or even a revenue number.
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And there are new challenges that come with that.
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And the word culture, you know, if you think of like a petri dish, right?
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You know, it's it's an environment with specific ingredients that let something grow.
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Well, at some point, what grows is going to be too big for that environment and gonna need different nutrients.
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And you've got to rethink about how do you expand the culture.
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And for us, some of the bigger points, right when I first got there, things changed, right?
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And some people didn't like it.
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It it seemed like, not that I think I'm a hard boss or anything and I never yell.
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And um, but it's it was different.
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It seemed like a group of friends kind of working together on a side project, which is a a tactical quality that I want to keep, right?
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I want you to feel like you're working with people that you would call up to help you on the weekends.
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And we employ husbands and wives, brothers and sisters, best friends, and we have a responsibility to our team to make sure that we're like keeping them employed and satisfied and challenged.
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That gets harder the bigger we get.
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And so when you bring in managers below, I kind of look at it now as you know, let's say we're you know 175 people.
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Are we in cohorts of 25 or 50 that are like a subgroup of the company, but that still have the same values passing along those pieces, but they put their own spin on it.
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It's like you know, a family at a dining room table.
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Like you know, they're all the same family, they have the same family values, but you may have like the irreverent brother or the you know, the book smart you know sister.
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Um, and they have their different styles, and you have to allow them to be authentic to themselves, but they're still sharing the mission, the vision, uh, and the same principles that you want to make sure that everyone has to build.
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Those are, I think, the biggest challenges.
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It wasn't hard going from 30 to 75.
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It it was a little challenging in that transition.
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Then we got to 150, it was a whole new set of challenges because the dynamic changes.
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The the types of people we employed changed, our clients changed, and then managing that group is hard.
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Um, so those, I think, are the things that have evolved and are going to continue to evolve.
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So, what would you say today, Don, are the three most important cultural attributes at first factory?
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I'm gonna probably stop down on the first one uh for for a minute, though.
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The first is really about empathy.
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And I have thought this word and this I for a long time, right?
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Because I feel like it's hokey, it's just feeling like it's prolifically, yes.
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It is, and I I don't want to say like I have a cold black heart, right?
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But like it's not natural for me to be like, oh, let me let me empathize with you.
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But what I realized as a leader is it is my responsibility um to help to understand and address your needs as an employee as well as the needs of a client.
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So I think empathy is the way to understand that.
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And so when you look at, you know, you coach someone, the same thing is you don't coach them on the task at hand, you coach them on the capacity to accomplish that task and the next one beyond it.
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And so if you think about it from that perspective, the empathy has to be there.
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You're not just saying do this this way for this instance.
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It is what are your skills?
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What are your shortcomings?
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What don't you see about the situation?
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Um, what do you bring to that perspective that we're not aligned?
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And how do I get you there?
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And I think for the empathy piece, that's huge.
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I think it's actually a bigger competitive advantage when you think about clients.
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Um, you know, everyone's like, oh, you always need to solve the client's need and understand like their problems and their pain points.
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Um, but I think we can go a lot further with that.
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And I do talk about that in the book as well.
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But that's the first thing.
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I want you to share a little bit about in a minute.
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Um You know, it's interesting that you you you you talk about you you're empathetic with clients or organizations and leaders, the good ones are are obviously client-centric, very sensitive to the needs and sensitivities of clients and that kind of thing.
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My experience is that so many leaders have not realized that the trick to creating an emboldened workforce that really does believe in the possibility and its achievability is so much about treating your stakeholders, your employees' stakeholders the same way you do your clients.
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Yeah, exactly.
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Same way you do your clients.
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And I I've found in my 25 years of coaching that that's a big aha for an awful lot of clients.
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An awful lot of clients.
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It's a certain people who have not made that connection.
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And so, but it sounds like you've embraced it and that it's worked very, very well for you.
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Yeah, I think the simple fact is, right, we manage people, we don't manage business, right?
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That's right.
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And your people are your biggest asset.
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Absolutely, and the biggest competitive advantage.
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Yep.
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Agreed.
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Which uh and clients and customers matter matter every bit as much, but it's every bit as much as your employees' stakeholders.
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Yeah, and I would actually lean on the employees or more, right?
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So the way that I kind of prioritize things, it's the employees, the clients, the company, and then me.
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Because if we give the employees the right framework, the right challenges, the right opportunities, you know, the right salaries, you know, they are then going to take care of our customers for us.
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And if the customers feel like they've been taken care of, then you know, they add value to the company, they want to do more work, and then I get rewarded.
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So for me, it's always the flip, right?
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It's never me, the company, the client, the employees.
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I kind of invert that pyramid and say it's the employees, you know, first.
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Um, and so that's what the business is.
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I see you as a very, very self-aware leader and the all of the thought leadership on the most successful leaders, the mo the highest impact leaders in every realm that they operate in has all to do, it starts with being very self-aware.
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It starts with you being very self-aware, and it it it that's so impressive.
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Another question, Don.
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Um are there any parts of your former identity at Kaplan that you as a leader have had to perhaps consciously let go of as you have evolved and grown yourself as a leader, but also the company first factory.
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It's probably more about my my tactics, right?
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And then maybe even like my identity, right?
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I always Kaplan, for example, you know, it's a global education company, right?
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You know, the leadership there all have like strong academic pedigrees, Ivy League MBAs ran the business units, um, you know, advanced degrees in education, I mean, as they should.
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Um, and that's not my experience, and that's not me.
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And what I I've come to learn uh over the years is, you know, I I shouldn't I shouldn't fight to get attention to prove that like I can do something.
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And I didn't build enough consensus.
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Um, and when I think about you know, my my success was notable at the company for what I was able to accomplish, but I never achieved the highest, you know, ranks in the divisions and the companies.
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And I think a lot of that was I closed off some doors because I didn't do the consensus building, right?
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And and there are times I had a contrarian stance and I kind of wanted to, you know, shout it uh to get noticed um and say, hey, look at me, and I I can do this, and you can give me that responsibility.
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And they gave me really great projects and projects that other people failed at and large ones that affect the organization, but I wasn't I never got to that other level.
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And so when I think about, you know, like the Renaissance and the apprenticeship model, um, which is really, especially nowadays with you know inflection points of AI and and business changing, um, that is a model that I would have benefited tremendously from if I thought about myself as you know taking the apprenticeship role and you know, learning from others first, seeing how they do it, building consensus.
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And then as you are entrusted and brought in and they bring you to that promotion, if you want to make the bigger change, they're gonna say, all right, go for it.
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So you've learned that since you've since you've been at first factory, to be sure.
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I can I I feel I can tell it's in your DNA at this point.
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It's cellular.
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Can you tell us a story about um an experience at at First Factory where you actually very consciously and planfully achieve went about achieving that consensus, that that trust, that buy-in to the change, changes that you were alluding to before that you wanted to make at first factory?
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I'll tell you, you know, I I think for me they they they hit hardest when at first I don't agree or I'm apprehensive about taking something on, right?
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So we Jason kind of loves uh to always give us projects, right?
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And challenge us to come up with it.
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Jason is the CEO, right?
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Jason's the CEO and founder.
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Um, to constantly say, like, it's it's never enough where we're at, and I've got a lot of big ideas, and when we're done with one big project, let's roll into another.
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And we do that across the teams.
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And I love that, but there are times I'm just like, I don't want to do this.
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And so when when he first brought up getting our SOC two type two compliance, you're gonna go SOC 2 type 1, then SOC 2 type 2, which is a really info security um certification.
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Good.
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I was terrified because uh on the team, I'm the least technical.
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And this is a highly technical, you know, evaluation of you know the maturity of your processes.
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I didn't know what really an MDM was, which is a mobile device management where you control all the laptops, you know, of the employees.
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Um, there was there were a whole host of things that we were just not mature in in terms of policies, practices to be a highly secure organization that companies, you know, could trust.
00:21:27.200 --> 00:21:33.599
And so my it was more of the fear than the workload that I was just not gonna get it.
00:21:33.680 --> 00:21:41.039
And I needed to kind of lead this project with our IT security officer, our VP of engineering, but essentially all these big initiatives, you know, rolled to me.
00:21:41.279 --> 00:21:44.240
And you were very dependent on them, I would imagine.
00:21:44.559 --> 00:21:44.880
Absolutely.
00:21:47.119 --> 00:21:50.720
And also dependent on the right partners that you choose.
00:21:50.880 --> 00:21:56.000
And we do employ a fractional CISO, uh uh chief info security officer.
00:21:56.160 --> 00:21:59.519
Um and so it was just a really good fit.
00:21:59.599 --> 00:22:02.880
And And they were very, all of them were very patient.
00:22:03.039 --> 00:22:05.279
They explained things to me, you know, simply.
00:22:05.440 --> 00:22:18.720
Um, and as I saw it unfold and saw the real benefit, not just because we would open up new doors to clients, because you know, uh finance is our largest segment, which is like 22% of our business, healthcare is the next.
00:22:18.799 --> 00:22:22.079
Those are highly regulated industries, highly sensitive information.
00:22:22.240 --> 00:22:23.200
It makes total sense.
00:22:23.279 --> 00:22:24.559
And I wasn't fighting that.
00:22:24.720 --> 00:22:33.440
But what I realized was after you know getting that initial um insight was that we would be a much stronger organization.
00:22:33.680 --> 00:22:38.160
Um, and you know, our team would learn security, which means that they would build more secure products, right?
00:22:38.240 --> 00:22:44.000
That means that um we would educate the team as well and they could earn certifications and find new development paths.
00:22:44.160 --> 00:22:47.039
And seeing it from that angle, it kind of really opened me up.
00:22:47.200 --> 00:22:50.720
And so that's really where there was one I wanted to fight it.
00:22:50.799 --> 00:22:53.440
Um, and I wanted to do something similar but different.
00:22:53.599 --> 00:23:00.319
But I really looked at what the team had recommended and said, look, let me learn from each of you, especially, you know, the CISO.
00:23:00.720 --> 00:23:03.680
Um, and um, and and that's that's I guess one example.
00:23:03.759 --> 00:23:08.079
And I sort of, you know, took the teach me and then lead from it.
00:23:08.400 --> 00:23:17.200
You really are your your humility is just so impressive and your and your willingness to show vulnerability.
00:23:17.359 --> 00:23:32.880
Well, seriously, that those are very, very, very powerful, powerful qualities of leaders that really separate you from the pack.
00:23:33.359 --> 00:23:33.839
Well, thank you.
00:23:34.000 --> 00:23:37.759
But that is that is learned and practiced because that is also not natural.
00:23:37.920 --> 00:23:40.640
And a lot of the models that I had growing up were not that.
00:23:40.799 --> 00:23:59.519
And so I see that in Jason, I see that in others, and I realize that especially I think it's easier also for me, like being in a leadership position to be vulnerable because I feel like it's clearer to see the benefit than it is when you are fighting your way up the rungs of a ladder.
00:23:59.680 --> 00:24:06.319
Um, my team is going to trust me more when I say I screwed up.
00:24:06.480 --> 00:24:10.960
Um, even if it's not a big deal, even if it's not my responsibility, it opens doors.
00:24:11.119 --> 00:24:13.599
They can see that they can be fallible and come to me.
00:24:13.759 --> 00:24:24.559
Um, and I I I really do see the impact of the employee-manager relationship when the manager is vulnerable and doesn't come across as a know-it-all.
00:24:24.720 --> 00:24:27.680
And again, that is also just not natural for me.
00:24:27.759 --> 00:24:29.920
So it's something learned and practiced.
00:24:30.160 --> 00:24:37.279
And um, it has certainly been an advantageous tool, and I like the person I am much more so because of it than I was before.
00:24:37.599 --> 00:24:38.400
Good for you.
00:24:38.640 --> 00:24:46.319
I would imagine that this this what you're sharing with me, you've written about in your new book, Emergent Leader.
00:24:46.720 --> 00:24:47.039
I have.
00:24:47.519 --> 00:24:57.519
Would you do you want to say a few words about that book and and what it's who it serves and what you're hoping, the messages that you're hoping to put out there?
00:24:58.160 --> 00:24:58.400
Sure.
00:24:58.559 --> 00:25:03.039
So uh it's the emergent leader, a guide to brand building, leadership, and self-mastery.
00:25:03.200 --> 00:25:08.400
And I really kind of initially struggled to identify which the sequence of these the sections.
00:25:08.640 --> 00:25:19.359
And I decided to start broad with branding and then strategy and opportunity, innovation, uh, efficiency, career development, and then stress.
00:25:19.680 --> 00:25:23.359
And so each of those six sections has you know 10 chapters in it.
00:25:23.440 --> 00:25:28.400
Um, and it really is for that's one volume.
00:25:28.960 --> 00:25:32.000
Yeah, I think the the paperback is 304 pages.
00:25:32.079 --> 00:25:35.599
Uh but there's also the audiobook and large print and digital, obviously.
00:25:35.759 --> 00:25:43.599
Um, but you know, as I was growing at at Kaplan, right, every year, uh essentially, except for the last few years I was there, I had a new job.
00:25:43.759 --> 00:25:52.240
And, you know, Kaplan was was great at having opportunities, but I it wasn't necessarily a clear career path, which for me was fine.
00:25:52.480 --> 00:26:03.599
Because I started in marketing, because I have a theater background, I could do presentations, uh, and then I moved into kind of academic operations, and then I moved into running centers and then national operations and then technology.
00:26:03.839 --> 00:26:20.480
So every time I was at a new point, I needed to kind of find information, whether it was Fast Company, Wired Magazine, Harvard Business Articles, mentors, um, just learn from failures, and then really understand that points when I had a different perspective than others.
00:26:20.720 --> 00:26:21.279
Wow.
00:26:21.599 --> 00:26:24.480
Um, and and what was the underlying result of it?
00:26:24.640 --> 00:26:28.880
But I never found I'd read many, many, many, many books on leadership.
00:26:28.960 --> 00:26:36.400
And some of them are great and they go really deep on a narrow subject, and some are a little bit more broad but theoretical, and I couldn't figure out how to apply that.
00:26:36.559 --> 00:26:39.039
And I really like just someone telling me the lesson, right?
00:26:39.119 --> 00:26:44.000
I even, you know, don't tell me exactly what the playbook is to do something.
00:26:44.079 --> 00:26:49.759
You know, tell me what your experience was in a situation, I will glean the lessons and figure out how to apply it myself.
00:26:50.000 --> 00:26:53.119
But for me, there wasn't a book for either a startup.
00:26:53.279 --> 00:27:01.519
And you look at, you know, there's 35 million companies in the United States, and five million are started every year, or five to five and a half million.
00:27:01.599 --> 00:27:01.759
Right.
00:27:01.920 --> 00:27:07.599
And 99% of them are less than 100 people, and 98% of them are like five people and 10 people.
00:27:07.759 --> 00:27:09.680
And so, you know, they're not going to business school.
00:27:09.759 --> 00:27:10.960
I didn't go to business school.
00:27:11.119 --> 00:27:21.279
So, can I give a holistic view of like what it is to build a company, recognize opportunities, be efficient as you're doing it, coach yourself and your employees through that process.
00:27:21.440 --> 00:27:24.319
Really something that I feel like I can, I'm still learning.
00:27:24.400 --> 00:27:27.680
I go back to a chapter, but like, oh, I'm not applying that lesson consistently.
00:27:28.000 --> 00:27:28.640
Good for you.
00:27:28.880 --> 00:27:37.759
And then the reason that I end on stress is because you know, fear impacts everything and every decision that you make, and it impacts the team around you.
00:27:37.839 --> 00:27:46.960
And if you can't get a hold on stress, and this isn't just stress recovery, which I think all the stress management stuff out there for me is almost entirely on recovery.
00:27:47.119 --> 00:27:52.880
It is identifying your stressors, identifying ways to avoid it if possible, or delegate those away.
00:27:53.039 --> 00:27:55.680
If you have to face it, what tactics do you use?
00:27:55.920 --> 00:27:58.640
And then, yeah, at the end, you've got to be able to recover from it.
00:27:58.799 --> 00:28:09.440
But if you're if you're stressed, you're not making clear decisions, you are not making wise decisions, you are passing that on to the team that feels it, even if you're you're trying to avoid it.
00:28:09.519 --> 00:28:11.920
And that impacts the performance and the client service.
00:28:12.000 --> 00:28:15.279
And so you have to lead yourself before you leave lead others.
00:28:15.359 --> 00:28:25.200
And I think that this book is really for any anyone growing in a career at an inflection point, moving into a new industry or starting a company is kind of really who it's targeted for.
00:28:25.359 --> 00:28:27.440
Kind of the book I didn't have, you know, through my years.
00:28:27.759 --> 00:28:28.319
Good for you.
00:28:28.480 --> 00:28:28.960
Good for you.
00:28:29.039 --> 00:28:31.359
I'm excited to read it and be inspired by it.
00:28:31.440 --> 00:28:32.319
I'm sure I will be.
00:28:32.559 --> 00:28:33.680
I'm sure I will be.
00:28:34.000 --> 00:28:39.279
Don, you you alluded a few minutes ago to mentors.
00:28:41.039 --> 00:28:52.960
Um that's a big, a big topic among particularly aspiring leaders, but even accomplished leaders at senior levels.
00:28:53.279 --> 00:29:19.039
And I'm just wondering if you can talk a little bit about your experience with mentors, how you went about identifying mentors, what your objectives were, perhaps in various situations, in a mentoring situation, and what you might say to the audience about the use of mentors.
00:29:19.279 --> 00:29:19.920
Yeah.
00:29:20.960 --> 00:29:24.400
I should have started a lot earlier, for sure.
00:29:25.039 --> 00:29:36.720
Um I used to, I think, identify and seek out higher-ups that were my champions and not necessarily my mentors.
00:29:37.279 --> 00:29:39.920
And I had good success early on with that.
00:29:40.400 --> 00:29:41.440
There's a huge difference.
00:29:42.480 --> 00:29:50.400
Um, and I'll tell you, you know, I I did I did reference the sort of um, you know, the Harvard MBA, you know, a Kaplan piece.
00:29:50.480 --> 00:29:55.759
And I think it wasn't until it was almost like a there was a certain group, and it wasn't the whole company, right?
00:29:55.920 --> 00:29:59.599
A certain group that was, I thought was like, you know, the Harvard NBA like boys' club kind of thing.
00:29:59.680 --> 00:30:01.359
And I didn't, I'm not a big sports guy.
00:30:01.440 --> 00:30:02.640
It was hard for me to like get in there.
00:30:02.720 --> 00:30:13.119
And then again, I I should have humbled myself a bit more and worked harder to assimilate, but it wasn't until we um got uh a female CAO.
00:30:13.599 --> 00:30:16.400
She was also CO, so Lauren Thomas Tovell.
00:30:16.640 --> 00:30:25.519
Um, and you know, there was it was easier, I think, for me to identify, you know, with her and her new approach that she was bringing into the company.
00:30:25.680 --> 00:30:28.240
And it was really Kaplan or for Kaplan.
00:30:28.480 --> 00:30:29.680
This is the Kaplan person.
00:30:30.079 --> 00:30:32.400
And, you know, she came with retail experience.
00:30:32.480 --> 00:30:36.240
And when you think about, you know, a lot of what Kaplan is is delivering service to people.
00:30:36.400 --> 00:30:37.759
We used to have centers.
00:30:37.920 --> 00:30:43.839
Um, there are some very in-depth, you know, month-long courses for doctors again, licensing them.
00:30:44.160 --> 00:30:49.200
Um it just had different perspective and didn't come from the the same cloth as others.
00:30:49.440 --> 00:31:06.799
And um, you know, being able to recognize that someone had different experiences and a different perspective, and also just a different sensibility, um, I was really much more willing to listen because I didn't automatically make the the conclusion of who they were and and and what they were gonna do.
00:31:07.359 --> 00:31:12.640
Um and and you know, she also she later became a champion, and that's when my my growth happened.
00:31:12.720 --> 00:31:16.319
But it wasn't the champion first, you know, based on one or two wins.
00:31:16.400 --> 00:31:19.599
It was I learned from her uh and then applied that later on.
00:31:19.680 --> 00:31:21.200
So that was that was, I think, a big one for me.
00:31:21.759 --> 00:31:33.680
I needed someone with a different background and expertise for me not to lump them all in the same and say, like, I can't learn from you, or the lessons that you have to teach me, I don't want to learn either at all or now.
00:31:33.920 --> 00:31:38.000
Um, but that was that was humbling for me, and I wish I would have done that a lot earlier.
00:31:38.319 --> 00:31:39.359
You're so right.
00:31:39.599 --> 00:31:42.480
The um you you you said it very well.
00:31:42.640 --> 00:31:50.079
The trick with mentors is first of all to be very clear about what your objective is.
00:31:50.319 --> 00:31:53.200
What is it that you want to accomplish with a mentor?
00:31:53.599 --> 00:31:58.559
That and and a lot of people are not, don't think that one through.
00:31:59.119 --> 00:32:01.920
A lot of people don't think that one through, but that's the first step.
00:32:02.079 --> 00:32:22.799
The second step is to identify, just as you said, colleagues, trusted colleagues who you know who bring very different perspective to the table than you necessarily have, because it stretches you.
00:32:23.200 --> 00:32:30.400
It stretches you, absolutely, albeit focused on a very specific objective that you want to work through with a mentor.
00:32:30.720 --> 00:32:36.559
And it's powerful, it's really powerful, it's really powerful.
00:32:37.039 --> 00:32:47.279
Um and I think it helps you, it helped me change my goal where I was trying to prove my value rather than building my value.
00:32:48.000 --> 00:32:54.400
Where you were trying to prove your value rather than build your value, very profound, very profound.
00:32:54.559 --> 00:33:04.960
And and um so many leaders and aspiring leaders feel the need to prove themselves.
00:33:05.119 --> 00:33:05.759
Yeah.
00:33:06.480 --> 00:33:11.839
When in fact what leadership is so much about is being.
00:33:12.160 --> 00:33:18.480
So we as we progress through our career, we start out as doers, like you did at Kaplan.
00:33:18.880 --> 00:33:22.240
You you got an amazing amount accomplished at Kaplan.
00:33:23.359 --> 00:33:46.960
And but when you move into the leadership roles, it starts to become much more about being and doing, but being, and going back to your points about empathy and being sensitive to the feelings of others, your particularly your internal, your employees' stakeholders, it buys you so much.
00:33:47.200 --> 00:33:47.519
Yeah.
00:33:47.839 --> 00:33:48.319
It buys you.
00:33:50.960 --> 00:34:00.160
Someone coming into an organization, or um, you know, I think so often we carry those lessons of the doers with us and we want to make an impact right away.
00:34:00.400 --> 00:34:02.880
And we, you know, big leaders come in, they change everything, right?
00:34:02.960 --> 00:34:12.639
They don't know enough about the business, but they change everything because they they feel like, well, you hired me to lead, and therefore I need to make my mark and show you what I did at other places and kind of slap it on here.
00:34:12.800 --> 00:34:20.559
Um, but I think that I mean, that's such a detriment, and I I think it it's also just borne a little bit of insecurity and arrogance at the same time.
00:34:20.719 --> 00:34:24.400
Um, but I think we're only restricted by what we already know.
00:34:24.559 --> 00:34:34.719
And you can't lead until you're able to assess the playing field and understand, you know, the organization, the people, uh, and then you can make the decisions after.
00:34:34.800 --> 00:34:47.360
And I think leaders often rush to task when that might be really a good decision when you're you know a lower-level employee, um, you know, just to learn how to do it and you're getting coached and people are watching.
00:34:47.440 --> 00:34:53.199
But when you're a leader, that is absolutely detrimental, not only to you, but to the entire organization.
00:34:53.280 --> 00:34:58.159
And there's been a lot of you know business crises as a result of those actions.
00:34:58.480 --> 00:34:59.440
It's absolutely true.
00:34:59.599 --> 00:35:26.239
I know a big transition for me, a hard transition for me in corporate America, transitioning to these leader roles, moving from someone who was very much uh who was a change agent, very focused on getting big things done, accomplished, moving things forward, growing, turning around businesses, that kind of thing.
00:35:26.320 --> 00:35:26.480
Yeah.
00:35:26.639 --> 00:35:55.519
And all of a sudden, I started getting feedback, thank God, from my trusted leadership team members who who where the environment was very safe for them to talk in the and they were giving me lots of feedback for a very long time about the fact that I needed to step back, let them do what they do well, let them do what they do well, to include learning from mistakes.
00:35:55.920 --> 00:36:03.119
And it was a profound journey for me, I know, to let go in that way, to let go in that way.
00:36:03.199 --> 00:36:07.599
And it's it's the being part of a leader is is huge.
00:36:07.679 --> 00:36:10.559
And I don't think we ever stop learning how to be.
00:36:11.039 --> 00:36:21.440
No, and I mean that's our growth, and that's also, you know, why we're being promoted into a role, but it's hard for us, like if if for people like you and me, you know, where we've been the change agents, we've done the work.
00:36:21.599 --> 00:36:26.639
So if we're now in a leadership role where we have to really focus on the things that are long term.
00:36:26.800 --> 00:36:27.119
Right.
00:36:27.199 --> 00:36:33.920
Uh, and I feel like I'm not being as effective as I can be to the company today, but that's no longer my role.
00:36:34.000 --> 00:36:37.679
Now, granted, if there are big issues that pop up, like those are the ones that should come to my plate.
00:36:37.760 --> 00:36:41.199
Like the number one issue facing the company should come to my plate today, right?
00:36:41.280 --> 00:36:51.519
But my impact is longer term, and we're I'm used to the more day-to-day, quarter-to-quarter milestone big projects that are tangible.
00:36:51.840 --> 00:37:02.639
And it's kind of a hard thing to say, I'm not gonna really see the fruits of my labor for one, two, three years, but the fabric of the company is gonna change.
00:37:02.960 --> 00:37:03.519
You know what?
00:37:03.679 --> 00:37:08.960
You know where you're gonna see your the fruits of your labor every single day, and I'm sure you do see it.
00:37:09.119 --> 00:37:20.079
Your impact is not long term, your impact is in the moment because I have a feeling that you are an amazing coach to your leaders, to your to your people.
00:37:20.960 --> 00:37:24.400
And that's what counts, coach and mentor, by the way.
00:37:25.119 --> 00:37:26.880
And that's what counts.
00:37:27.119 --> 00:37:36.239
And an awful lot of leaders don't they don't ascribe enough importance to being great coaches to their people.
00:37:36.960 --> 00:37:50.960
And when you do that, you create motivation that is off the charts, and it's why your NPS scores are so high, consistently high, I'm sure, at First Factory.
00:37:51.679 --> 00:37:55.920
So don't be thinking that you're that your impact as a leader is long term.
00:37:56.000 --> 00:37:57.199
You're making it in the moment.
00:37:57.519 --> 00:37:58.000
Fair enough.
00:37:58.639 --> 00:38:00.239
You're making it in the moment.
00:38:00.639 --> 00:38:02.719
I have one last question for you.
00:38:02.880 --> 00:38:03.199
Okay.
00:38:04.400 --> 00:38:16.239
If you could give one piece of advice to a leader standing at the edge of a major transition or inflection point in their career, what would it be?
00:38:21.519 --> 00:38:24.880
I I'd probably have to hearken back to the empathy piece.
00:38:24.960 --> 00:38:31.679
I mean, I really want to talk about the authenticity of leadership and building the credibility to lead, but you're not gonna do that in the moment.
00:38:31.760 --> 00:38:37.920
And if you haven't, if you haven't built that to that point, you're you're likely not gonna be successful.
00:38:38.079 --> 00:38:41.039
Um, so but that is a prerequisite for me, right?
00:38:41.199 --> 00:38:43.039
Is building the credibility to lead.
00:38:43.280 --> 00:38:45.440
But it is the it is the empathy part, right?
00:38:45.519 --> 00:38:54.480
Because there is no business without people, there is no team without togetherness, and you cannot expect the results that are necessary.
00:38:54.639 --> 00:39:01.840
You can't expect people to to to go into battle like with you uh if if you're not empathetic, you know, to their needs.
00:39:02.000 --> 00:39:11.760
Um, and you know, again, we we talked about it before, like people are the business, people are uh that is our job is managing coaching people to so that we get through the next challenges.
00:39:11.920 --> 00:39:13.679
I I think that's the big piece.
00:39:14.239 --> 00:39:15.760
You are amazing.
00:39:16.000 --> 00:39:16.960
You are amazing.
00:39:17.119 --> 00:39:18.000
I totally agree with that.
00:39:19.440 --> 00:39:20.639
No, I relate to you.
00:39:20.719 --> 00:39:47.920
I completely relate to you, and I think that the um the being able to be sensitive to the feelings of deeply sensitive to the feelings of others in particular when you're a driver of change, and particularly when you're constantly in the midst of continuous change, where you want your people to be emboldened, where you want your people to have the courage of their conviction to go for big change.
00:39:48.159 --> 00:39:48.480
For sure.
00:39:48.800 --> 00:39:50.800
That's gonna really make a difference.
00:39:51.440 --> 00:39:55.280
Really connecting with them at a more personal level.
00:39:55.679 --> 00:39:58.719
And I'm talking about on a professional basis, of course.
00:39:58.960 --> 00:39:59.599
Yes, of course.
00:39:59.920 --> 00:40:03.760
But but um it's it's just critically important.
00:40:03.840 --> 00:40:04.320
It's crazy.
00:40:04.559 --> 00:40:09.199
But you're also teaching them the lessons that they're going to learn to lead later.
00:40:09.360 --> 00:40:14.400
And I think, you know, too often, you know, there are, you know, I mean, stereotypes are based in truth, right?
00:40:14.480 --> 00:40:17.280
And you think of leaders and you think of these dominant, you know, figures.
00:40:17.360 --> 00:40:23.280
And it's like dominance in an industry, in a business, is not about hurting a competitor, right?
00:40:23.440 --> 00:40:24.800
It's not about doing damage.
00:40:24.960 --> 00:40:27.760
It is about leading by setting the standard.
00:40:28.159 --> 00:40:45.199
And if you're able to do that and focus the team on here's the here's the inflection point, here's where we need to get to, here's the hard truth, here's the uncertainty, here's what we want to do is set a standard that is going to allow us to excel and maintain that position later on.
00:40:45.519 --> 00:40:49.840
That is what we're teaching, you know, not something that is what you're doing.
00:40:51.440 --> 00:40:58.559
You're creating a safe environment for your people to be creative and innovate and make mistakes and learn from them.
00:40:58.960 --> 00:40:59.760
That's what you're doing.
00:41:00.000 --> 00:41:13.440
And that and and I'm I'm glad you say that because that is exactly why Jason started the company and called it First Factory, because the factory is a nod to Andy Warhol's the factory and just a safe space where artists could collaborate together and do their best work.
00:41:13.760 --> 00:41:14.960
Oh, isn't that interesting?
00:41:15.280 --> 00:41:20.000
Yeah, that really is you know what I think of as well in terms of what we're doing there.
00:41:20.159 --> 00:41:24.480
And look, my employees are a lot smarter than me in almost every area.
00:41:24.719 --> 00:41:29.920
And so to allow them to be creative and shine, I learn more, they develop, um, we all lift each other.
00:41:30.400 --> 00:41:31.039
Everybody wins.
00:41:31.119 --> 00:41:31.679
Everybody wins.
00:41:32.079 --> 00:41:32.639
Totally correct.
00:41:32.800 --> 00:41:32.960
Yeah.
00:41:33.119 --> 00:41:33.280
Yep.
00:41:33.440 --> 00:41:33.679
Yeah.
00:41:33.920 --> 00:41:35.920
Well, Don, this has been tremendous.
00:41:36.159 --> 00:41:36.880
This has been tremendous.
00:41:37.280 --> 00:41:37.920
Appreciate that so much.
00:41:38.079 --> 00:41:39.599
Thank you so much for your time.
00:41:39.760 --> 00:41:51.199
And thank you most of all for your candor and your openness and sharing some of the stories that that perhaps were a little bit more challenging for you and lessons learned.
00:41:51.440 --> 00:41:56.159
And I'm sure the audience is will have learned a great deal from this.
00:41:56.320 --> 00:41:56.559
Thank you.
00:41:56.880 --> 00:41:57.360
I hope so.
00:41:57.519 --> 00:41:57.760
Thank you.
00:41:57.840 --> 00:41:58.559
This was so enjoyable.
00:41:59.039 --> 00:42:00.639
Have a great day and week.
00:42:01.519 --> 00:42:03.519
You too, bye, Don.
00:00:09.279 --> 00:00:10.560
Good day.
00:00:11.039 --> 00:00:28.879
We're here today at Inflections, the Leadership Transition Podcast, is where senior leaders candidly share their learnings, navigating significant inflection points in their careers and involving their businesses.
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The moments that tested them, what they got right, what they got wrong, what they would do over if they could, if they could, if they could, and what they'd pass on.
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I'm pleased and honored to introduce Don Grigori as one of our early guests on inflections.
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Don is chief operating officer of First Factory, a multinational software solutions provider in New York and Costa Rica.
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During his tenure, First Factory has been honored on the Inc.
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5000 list of America's fastest growing private companies for five consecutive years and recognized as an Inc.
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magazine power partner.
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Under Don's leadership, they have also become carbon neutral and maintain a lifetime employee net promoter score of more than 70 points.
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Don is a highly self-aware visionary change agent, and we're gonna talk about a big transition he made upon agreeing to accept the role at First Factory as chief operating officer, having spent several years as a client of First Factories.
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And we're gonna start off with some with some conversation about what Don thought he was getting into as a from a client perspective versus what he actually experienced in the first 12 months.
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Don, welcome.
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And thank you for being a guest on Inflections.
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It's much appreciated.
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So Don, let's start.
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You you had been a client of First Factories for some time in your earlier position.
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And so you clearly had a sense of the company, the culture from a client perspective.
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But I wonder if you could talk first of all about the first six or twelve months and a little bit about what you thought you were going into versus what you actually experienced in what was obviously a big transition, an inflection point for you.
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Sure.
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So I had spent 18 years at Kaplan Test Prep and Emission.
00:03:07.759 --> 00:03:27.599
And for the last eight years, um I had multiple roles, but um oversaw all the custom applications, the things that were needed to schedule classes, assign teachers, uh run operations nationally, and then also was essentially product owner uh of the the marketing website for all the different divisions of the company.
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And so First Factory came to me uh during that time.
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And I was really a point where I was I was a stakeholder approving work getting done on these applications before taking it over, and there were no custom um homegrown solutions at the time.
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And so we had this idea for one, and I just really wanted to work with a company that was a bit smaller than some of our larger outsourcing partners because I knew that those resources would get pulled from me, probably for more higher priority uh projects.
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But I also needed a company that would be patient with me as a stakeholder because I, while I understood technology from a user perspective and I understood how to prioritize, I didn't really understand how software was made.
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And so when I worked with First Factory, it was really clear to me that it wasn't just about the technical skill that they had, but there was a uh a generosity, patience, and then there was also a willingness for them to learn.
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So there was a point in time over those years where my lead engineer at Kaplan wanted to build an application in the language Scala, which Twitter was built on at the time.
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And no one on our team knew Scala, and nobody in Costa Rica at First Factory knew Scala.
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And Jason, who's the founder and CEO, said, Well, I'll find somebody, we'll bring them in for a while, we'll train up our team.
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Uh, and they were willing to do that.
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And so, myself, my lead uh engineer, we flew down to Costa Rica.
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We all had training and onboarding, talked about the project, and they kept this consultant on to help train the team over the course of a few months and you know, supported that application for a couple of years.
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And I just I hadn't seen that before.
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But what was really, you know, insightful to me was the people in Costa Rica, you know, it's kind of like the utopian, the way we think back in like the 1950s America, where you know everybody on your block and you're family-oriented and um and your people go on vacation like with their mothers and and their families.
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And there was just still this sense of respect and accountability to each other that I hadn't seen in other places.
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And Jason was at a point where you know, he had started the company, it's now 26 plus years old, um, where he was stagnant and you know, kind of needed to figure out, you know, what the next effort would be to scale.
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And he was thinking of hiring a salesperson.
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But with the diversity of experience that I had at Kaplan, and we can talk about that later, um, he was thinking that, well, maybe I could have Don Run operations and I'll learn sales.
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Um, and that was really what happened.
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And then we evaluated each other to make sure that like I could add value and then get value out of it.
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Um, and when I joined the company, it was 30 people.
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And at our high mark um about a year and a half ago, we were at you know, 220 uh or so, keeping a large bench for projects.
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But what was so I knew that I could help them kind of formalize operations, uh, develop teams uh and identify, you know, who the future leaders were.
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Um, but what was a challenge for me, I wasn't expecting, was you know, I was used to just managing people.
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Uh, and here we now like our people are our product.
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And therefore, like our we are a service business.
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And so when you're dealing with a client, and you know, again, small company, not a lot of diversity.
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There were no designers on the team, there were no project managers, there were no business analysts.
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So, like when a client said, Hey, we need design, I was like, okay, I mean, I am a bit design savvy, but I'm not a designer.
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I learned how to use sketch and I learned wireframing, you know, at a level that I hadn't before.
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And I built it and understood what people needed.
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And then once that was a proven line of business and we knew what we wanted and how we wanted to manage it, then we would hire somebody and put them in.
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And I think that was the big difference for me.
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And it really kind of changed, you know, how I view leadership really as you know, the a servant to the team, is Jason and I will always take on the burden first to make sure that it is a worthwhile effort.
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Like, do we want to go down this line, understand what the needs are, understand how to deliver, and then create kind of the playbook to bring someone on to then own that pillar after us.
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And I think that's just earned a lot of, you know, uh respect from the team.
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And they also know that we're willing to get our hands dirty when things get difficult or when they're overwhelmed.
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And I'll say, look, I'll do the data entry on that.
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If you're gonna miss a deadline, just give it to me.
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Or I know how to do that because I've done it before.
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I'll help you through this project.
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And I think that really lends credibility to lead for teams, especially those that, you know, are much more junior.
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They don't get to often experience that, but I think it's in a model of a leader that they um, you know, should have in mind as they grow in their careers and hopefully pass that off.
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I love how you role model authenticity, transparency, and it sounds like the culture of First Factory is frankly somewhat unique, where you talked so much about their generosity and their patience and interest in learning and um very impressive.
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I'm I'm assuming that you've worked hard to build on that culture and wonder about you've been in you've been there now for how long?
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Nine years.
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Nine years.
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Good for you, good for you.
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What's changed in terms of the culture?
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Or perhaps a better way to put it is what's evolved?
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What is what have you built on on an already so what sounds to be a very solid foundation?
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Yeah, I think change is is fine.
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I think people are afraid of change, but you know, when you look around, you know, change is a natural process, right?
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I mean, it's the root of all growth.
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Uh, you know, a tree grows, you know, a fruit, fruit ripens, turns colors, like, you know, seeds drop.
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I mean, everywhere around us is changing.
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And we're often, I think, uh, afraid of change.
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So that is one thing as well, is that you know, as the future, you know, gets more unpredictable at times, or we face, you know, hard moments as a company or as an employee on a project, um, it is bringing that, you know, fear of change to reality and say, okay, let's identify what is you know unfamiliar with with that experience.
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What do you feel unprepared for?
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You know, let's learn it and be able to address it.
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I don't think that was a thinking of mine early on, right?
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Especially as business grows, you know, when when someone new comes in and there's some new ingredients, things they're a little slow to to take hold, right?
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It's like the foundation of the building, you know, you know, you're like, what are they doing?
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Six months, I don't see anything.
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And then all of a sudden, three weeks later, like five stories are up, and you're like, what happened?
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Yeah.
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So, but after that, you just expect the growth to continue.
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And at some point, you know, it's kind of like, you know, like the Dunbar principle where they say you can only remember like 150 people's like names and relationships.
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But you know, there's there's every company is different, but it's going to find different tiers that are are new challenges, whether it's the size of the company from an employee number or it's a size of a company or you know, the number of clients, or even a revenue number.
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And there are new challenges that come with that.
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And the word culture, you know, if you think of like a petri dish, right?
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You know, it's it's an environment with specific ingredients that let something grow.
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Well, at some point, what grows is going to be too big for that environment and gonna need different nutrients.
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And you've got to rethink about how do you expand the culture.
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And for us, some of the bigger points, right when I first got there, things changed, right?
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And some people didn't like it.
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It it seemed like, not that I think I'm a hard boss or anything and I never yell.
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And um, but it's it was different.
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It seemed like a group of friends kind of working together on a side project, which is a a tactical quality that I want to keep, right?
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I want you to feel like you're working with people that you would call up to help you on the weekends.
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And we employ husbands and wives, brothers and sisters, best friends, and we have a responsibility to our team to make sure that we're like keeping them employed and satisfied and challenged.
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That gets harder the bigger we get.
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And so when you bring in managers below, I kind of look at it now as you know, let's say we're you know 175 people.
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Are we in cohorts of 25 or 50 that are like a subgroup of the company, but that still have the same values passing along those pieces, but they put their own spin on it.
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It's like you know, a family at a dining room table.
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Like you know, they're all the same family, they have the same family values, but you may have like the irreverent brother or the you know, the book smart you know sister.
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Um, and they have their different styles, and you have to allow them to be authentic to themselves, but they're still sharing the mission, the vision, uh, and the same principles that you want to make sure that everyone has to build.
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Those are, I think, the biggest challenges.
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It wasn't hard going from 30 to 75.
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It it was a little challenging in that transition.
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Then we got to 150, it was a whole new set of challenges because the dynamic changes.
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The the types of people we employed changed, our clients changed, and then managing that group is hard.
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Um, so those, I think, are the things that have evolved and are going to continue to evolve.
00:12:38.960 --> 00:12:47.679
So, what would you say today, Don, are the three most important cultural attributes at first factory?
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I'm gonna probably stop down on the first one uh for for a minute, though.
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The first is really about empathy.
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And I have thought this word and this I for a long time, right?
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Because I feel like it's hokey, it's just feeling like it's prolifically, yes.
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It is, and I I don't want to say like I have a cold black heart, right?
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But like it's not natural for me to be like, oh, let me let me empathize with you.
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But what I realized as a leader is it is my responsibility um to help to understand and address your needs as an employee as well as the needs of a client.
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So I think empathy is the way to understand that.
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And so when you look at, you know, you coach someone, the same thing is you don't coach them on the task at hand, you coach them on the capacity to accomplish that task and the next one beyond it.
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And so if you think about it from that perspective, the empathy has to be there.
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You're not just saying do this this way for this instance.
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It is what are your skills?
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What are your shortcomings?
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What don't you see about the situation?
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Um, what do you bring to that perspective that we're not aligned?
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And how do I get you there?
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And I think for the empathy piece, that's huge.
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I think it's actually a bigger competitive advantage when you think about clients.
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Um, you know, everyone's like, oh, you always need to solve the client's need and understand like their problems and their pain points.
00:14:18.720 --> 00:14:21.279
Um, but I think we can go a lot further with that.
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And I do talk about that in the book as well.
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But that's the first thing.
00:14:24.720 --> 00:14:26.720
I want you to share a little bit about in a minute.
00:14:27.279 --> 00:14:47.919
Um You know, it's interesting that you you you you talk about you you're empathetic with clients or organizations and leaders, the good ones are are obviously client-centric, very sensitive to the needs and sensitivities of clients and that kind of thing.
00:14:48.399 --> 00:15:13.759
My experience is that so many leaders have not realized that the trick to creating an emboldened workforce that really does believe in the possibility and its achievability is so much about treating your stakeholders, your employees' stakeholders the same way you do your clients.
00:15:13.919 --> 00:15:14.720
Yeah, exactly.
00:15:15.120 --> 00:15:16.399
Same way you do your clients.
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And I I've found in my 25 years of coaching that that's a big aha for an awful lot of clients.
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An awful lot of clients.
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It's a certain people who have not made that connection.
00:15:30.320 --> 00:15:36.080
And so, but it sounds like you've embraced it and that it's worked very, very well for you.
00:15:36.480 --> 00:15:40.080
Yeah, I think the simple fact is, right, we manage people, we don't manage business, right?
00:15:40.480 --> 00:15:40.799
That's right.
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And your people are your biggest asset.
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Absolutely, and the biggest competitive advantage.
00:15:51.840 --> 00:15:52.320
Yep.
00:15:52.639 --> 00:15:53.039
Agreed.
00:15:54.000 --> 00:16:04.000
Which uh and clients and customers matter matter every bit as much, but it's every bit as much as your employees' stakeholders.
00:16:04.399 --> 00:16:07.120
Yeah, and I would actually lean on the employees or more, right?
00:16:07.200 --> 00:16:11.679
So the way that I kind of prioritize things, it's the employees, the clients, the company, and then me.
00:16:11.840 --> 00:16:21.120
Because if we give the employees the right framework, the right challenges, the right opportunities, you know, the right salaries, you know, they are then going to take care of our customers for us.
00:16:21.200 --> 00:16:27.360
And if the customers feel like they've been taken care of, then you know, they add value to the company, they want to do more work, and then I get rewarded.
00:16:27.519 --> 00:16:29.600
So for me, it's always the flip, right?
00:16:29.679 --> 00:16:32.000
It's never me, the company, the client, the employees.
00:16:32.080 --> 00:16:35.759
I kind of invert that pyramid and say it's the employees, you know, first.
00:16:35.840 --> 00:16:37.679
Um, and so that's what the business is.
00:16:38.000 --> 00:17:02.960
I see you as a very, very self-aware leader and the all of the thought leadership on the most successful leaders, the mo the highest impact leaders in every realm that they operate in has all to do, it starts with being very self-aware.
00:17:03.200 --> 00:17:08.240
It starts with you being very self-aware, and it it it that's so impressive.
00:17:09.039 --> 00:17:10.319
Another question, Don.
00:17:10.880 --> 00:17:33.039
Um are there any parts of your former identity at Kaplan that you as a leader have had to perhaps consciously let go of as you have evolved and grown yourself as a leader, but also the company first factory.
00:17:35.920 --> 00:17:40.720
It's probably more about my my tactics, right?
00:17:40.799 --> 00:17:42.799
And then maybe even like my identity, right?
00:17:42.880 --> 00:17:49.519
I always Kaplan, for example, you know, it's a global education company, right?
00:17:49.599 --> 00:18:00.160
You know, the leadership there all have like strong academic pedigrees, Ivy League MBAs ran the business units, um, you know, advanced degrees in education, I mean, as they should.
00:18:00.240 --> 00:18:02.720
Um, and that's not my experience, and that's not me.
00:18:02.880 --> 00:18:14.960
And what I I've come to learn uh over the years is, you know, I I shouldn't I shouldn't fight to get attention to prove that like I can do something.
00:18:15.200 --> 00:18:17.440
And I didn't build enough consensus.
00:18:17.599 --> 00:18:31.440
Um, and when I think about you know, my my success was notable at the company for what I was able to accomplish, but I never achieved the highest, you know, ranks in the divisions and the companies.
00:18:31.680 --> 00:18:36.720
And I think a lot of that was I closed off some doors because I didn't do the consensus building, right?
00:18:36.799 --> 00:18:47.599
And and there are times I had a contrarian stance and I kind of wanted to, you know, shout it uh to get noticed um and say, hey, look at me, and I I can do this, and you can give me that responsibility.
00:18:47.759 --> 00:18:55.759
And they gave me really great projects and projects that other people failed at and large ones that affect the organization, but I wasn't I never got to that other level.
00:18:55.839 --> 00:19:20.400
And so when I think about, you know, like the Renaissance and the apprenticeship model, um, which is really, especially nowadays with you know inflection points of AI and and business changing, um, that is a model that I would have benefited tremendously from if I thought about myself as you know taking the apprenticeship role and you know, learning from others first, seeing how they do it, building consensus.
00:19:20.640 --> 00:19:30.319
And then as you are entrusted and brought in and they bring you to that promotion, if you want to make the bigger change, they're gonna say, all right, go for it.
00:19:30.960 --> 00:19:35.839
So you've learned that since you've since you've been at first factory, to be sure.
00:19:36.000 --> 00:19:39.440
I can I I feel I can tell it's in your DNA at this point.
00:19:39.519 --> 00:19:40.799
It's cellular.
00:19:41.279 --> 00:20:09.920
Can you tell us a story about um an experience at at First Factory where you actually very consciously and planfully achieve went about achieving that consensus, that that trust, that buy-in to the change, changes that you were alluding to before that you wanted to make at first factory?
00:20:10.960 --> 00:20:21.440
I'll tell you, you know, I I think for me they they they hit hardest when at first I don't agree or I'm apprehensive about taking something on, right?
00:20:21.599 --> 00:20:26.160
So we Jason kind of loves uh to always give us projects, right?
00:20:26.240 --> 00:20:27.200
And challenge us to come up with it.
00:20:27.440 --> 00:20:28.480
Jason is the CEO, right?
00:20:28.720 --> 00:20:30.160
Jason's the CEO and founder.
00:20:30.319 --> 00:20:38.400
Um, to constantly say, like, it's it's never enough where we're at, and I've got a lot of big ideas, and when we're done with one big project, let's roll into another.
00:20:38.480 --> 00:20:40.079
And we do that across the teams.
00:20:40.240 --> 00:20:43.119
And I love that, but there are times I'm just like, I don't want to do this.
00:20:43.279 --> 00:20:55.279
And so when when he first brought up getting our SOC two type two compliance, you're gonna go SOC 2 type 1, then SOC 2 type 2, which is a really info security um certification.
00:20:55.599 --> 00:20:56.079
Good.
00:20:56.480 --> 00:21:02.319
I was terrified because uh on the team, I'm the least technical.
00:21:02.480 --> 00:21:08.559
And this is a highly technical, you know, evaluation of you know the maturity of your processes.
00:21:08.640 --> 00:21:15.359
I didn't know what really an MDM was, which is a mobile device management where you control all the laptops, you know, of the employees.
00:21:15.440 --> 00:21:26.880
Um, there was there were a whole host of things that we were just not mature in in terms of policies, practices to be a highly secure organization that companies, you know, could trust.
00:21:27.200 --> 00:21:33.599
And so my it was more of the fear than the workload that I was just not gonna get it.
00:21:33.680 --> 00:21:41.039
And I needed to kind of lead this project with our IT security officer, our VP of engineering, but essentially all these big initiatives, you know, rolled to me.
00:21:41.279 --> 00:21:44.240
And you were very dependent on them, I would imagine.
00:21:44.559 --> 00:21:44.880
Absolutely.
00:21:47.119 --> 00:21:50.720
And also dependent on the right partners that you choose.
00:21:50.880 --> 00:21:56.000
And we do employ a fractional CISO, uh uh chief info security officer.
00:21:56.160 --> 00:21:59.519
Um and so it was just a really good fit.
00:21:59.599 --> 00:22:02.880
And And they were very, all of them were very patient.
00:22:03.039 --> 00:22:05.279
They explained things to me, you know, simply.
00:22:05.440 --> 00:22:18.720
Um, and as I saw it unfold and saw the real benefit, not just because we would open up new doors to clients, because you know, uh finance is our largest segment, which is like 22% of our business, healthcare is the next.
00:22:18.799 --> 00:22:22.079
Those are highly regulated industries, highly sensitive information.
00:22:22.240 --> 00:22:23.200
It makes total sense.
00:22:23.279 --> 00:22:24.559
And I wasn't fighting that.
00:22:24.720 --> 00:22:33.440
But what I realized was after you know getting that initial um insight was that we would be a much stronger organization.
00:22:33.680 --> 00:22:38.160
Um, and you know, our team would learn security, which means that they would build more secure products, right?
00:22:38.240 --> 00:22:44.000
That means that um we would educate the team as well and they could earn certifications and find new development paths.
00:22:44.160 --> 00:22:47.039
And seeing it from that angle, it kind of really opened me up.
00:22:47.200 --> 00:22:50.720
And so that's really where there was one I wanted to fight it.
00:22:50.799 --> 00:22:53.440
Um, and I wanted to do something similar but different.
00:22:53.599 --> 00:23:00.319
But I really looked at what the team had recommended and said, look, let me learn from each of you, especially, you know, the CISO.
00:23:00.720 --> 00:23:03.680
Um, and um, and and that's that's I guess one example.
00:23:03.759 --> 00:23:08.079
And I sort of, you know, took the teach me and then lead from it.
00:23:08.400 --> 00:23:17.200
You really are your your humility is just so impressive and your and your willingness to show vulnerability.
00:23:17.359 --> 00:23:32.880
Well, seriously, that those are very, very, very powerful, powerful qualities of leaders that really separate you from the pack.
00:23:33.359 --> 00:23:33.839
Well, thank you.
00:23:34.000 --> 00:23:37.759
But that is that is learned and practiced because that is also not natural.
00:23:37.920 --> 00:23:40.640
And a lot of the models that I had growing up were not that.
00:23:40.799 --> 00:23:59.519
And so I see that in Jason, I see that in others, and I realize that especially I think it's easier also for me, like being in a leadership position to be vulnerable because I feel like it's clearer to see the benefit than it is when you are fighting your way up the rungs of a ladder.
00:23:59.680 --> 00:24:06.319
Um, my team is going to trust me more when I say I screwed up.
00:24:06.480 --> 00:24:10.960
Um, even if it's not a big deal, even if it's not my responsibility, it opens doors.
00:24:11.119 --> 00:24:13.599
They can see that they can be fallible and come to me.
00:24:13.759 --> 00:24:24.559
Um, and I I I really do see the impact of the employee-manager relationship when the manager is vulnerable and doesn't come across as a know-it-all.
00:24:24.720 --> 00:24:27.680
And again, that is also just not natural for me.
00:24:27.759 --> 00:24:29.920
So it's something learned and practiced.
00:24:30.160 --> 00:24:37.279
And um, it has certainly been an advantageous tool, and I like the person I am much more so because of it than I was before.
00:24:37.599 --> 00:24:38.400
Good for you.
00:24:38.640 --> 00:24:46.319
I would imagine that this this what you're sharing with me, you've written about in your new book, Emergent Leader.
00:24:46.720 --> 00:24:47.039
I have.
00:24:47.519 --> 00:24:57.519
Would you do you want to say a few words about that book and and what it's who it serves and what you're hoping, the messages that you're hoping to put out there?
00:24:58.160 --> 00:24:58.400
Sure.
00:24:58.559 --> 00:25:03.039
So uh it's the emergent leader, a guide to brand building, leadership, and self-mastery.
00:25:03.200 --> 00:25:08.400
And I really kind of initially struggled to identify which the sequence of these the sections.
00:25:08.640 --> 00:25:19.359
And I decided to start broad with branding and then strategy and opportunity, innovation, uh, efficiency, career development, and then stress.
00:25:19.680 --> 00:25:23.359
And so each of those six sections has you know 10 chapters in it.
00:25:23.440 --> 00:25:28.400
Um, and it really is for that's one volume.
00:25:28.960 --> 00:25:32.000
Yeah, I think the the paperback is 304 pages.
00:25:32.079 --> 00:25:35.599
Uh but there's also the audiobook and large print and digital, obviously.
00:25:35.759 --> 00:25:43.599
Um, but you know, as I was growing at at Kaplan, right, every year, uh essentially, except for the last few years I was there, I had a new job.
00:25:43.759 --> 00:25:52.240
And, you know, Kaplan was was great at having opportunities, but I it wasn't necessarily a clear career path, which for me was fine.
00:25:52.480 --> 00:26:03.599
Because I started in marketing, because I have a theater background, I could do presentations, uh, and then I moved into kind of academic operations, and then I moved into running centers and then national operations and then technology.
00:26:03.839 --> 00:26:20.480
So every time I was at a new point, I needed to kind of find information, whether it was Fast Company, Wired Magazine, Harvard Business Articles, mentors, um, just learn from failures, and then really understand that points when I had a different perspective than others.
00:26:20.720 --> 00:26:21.279
Wow.
00:26:21.599 --> 00:26:24.480
Um, and and what was the underlying result of it?
00:26:24.640 --> 00:26:28.880
But I never found I'd read many, many, many, many books on leadership.
00:26:28.960 --> 00:26:36.400
And some of them are great and they go really deep on a narrow subject, and some are a little bit more broad but theoretical, and I couldn't figure out how to apply that.
00:26:36.559 --> 00:26:39.039
And I really like just someone telling me the lesson, right?
00:26:39.119 --> 00:26:44.000
I even, you know, don't tell me exactly what the playbook is to do something.
00:26:44.079 --> 00:26:49.759
You know, tell me what your experience was in a situation, I will glean the lessons and figure out how to apply it myself.
00:26:50.000 --> 00:26:53.119
But for me, there wasn't a book for either a startup.
00:26:53.279 --> 00:27:01.519
And you look at, you know, there's 35 million companies in the United States, and five million are started every year, or five to five and a half million.
00:27:01.599 --> 00:27:01.759
Right.
00:27:01.920 --> 00:27:07.599
And 99% of them are less than 100 people, and 98% of them are like five people and 10 people.
00:27:07.759 --> 00:27:09.680
And so, you know, they're not going to business school.
00:27:09.759 --> 00:27:10.960
I didn't go to business school.
00:27:11.119 --> 00:27:21.279
So, can I give a holistic view of like what it is to build a company, recognize opportunities, be efficient as you're doing it, coach yourself and your employees through that process.
00:27:21.440 --> 00:27:24.319
Really something that I feel like I can, I'm still learning.
00:27:24.400 --> 00:27:27.680
I go back to a chapter, but like, oh, I'm not applying that lesson consistently.
00:27:28.000 --> 00:27:28.640
Good for you.
00:27:28.880 --> 00:27:37.759
And then the reason that I end on stress is because you know, fear impacts everything and every decision that you make, and it impacts the team around you.
00:27:37.839 --> 00:27:46.960
And if you can't get a hold on stress, and this isn't just stress recovery, which I think all the stress management stuff out there for me is almost entirely on recovery.
00:27:47.119 --> 00:27:52.880
It is identifying your stressors, identifying ways to avoid it if possible, or delegate those away.
00:27:53.039 --> 00:27:55.680
If you have to face it, what tactics do you use?
00:27:55.920 --> 00:27:58.640
And then, yeah, at the end, you've got to be able to recover from it.
00:27:58.799 --> 00:28:09.440
But if you're if you're stressed, you're not making clear decisions, you are not making wise decisions, you are passing that on to the team that feels it, even if you're you're trying to avoid it.
00:28:09.519 --> 00:28:11.920
And that impacts the performance and the client service.
00:28:12.000 --> 00:28:15.279
And so you have to lead yourself before you leave lead others.
00:28:15.359 --> 00:28:25.200
And I think that this book is really for any anyone growing in a career at an inflection point, moving into a new industry or starting a company is kind of really who it's targeted for.
00:28:25.359 --> 00:28:27.440
Kind of the book I didn't have, you know, through my years.
00:28:27.759 --> 00:28:28.319
Good for you.
00:28:28.480 --> 00:28:28.960
Good for you.
00:28:29.039 --> 00:28:31.359
I'm excited to read it and be inspired by it.
00:28:31.440 --> 00:28:32.319
I'm sure I will be.
00:28:32.559 --> 00:28:33.680
I'm sure I will be.
00:28:34.000 --> 00:28:39.279
Don, you you alluded a few minutes ago to mentors.
00:28:41.039 --> 00:28:52.960
Um that's a big, a big topic among particularly aspiring leaders, but even accomplished leaders at senior levels.
00:28:53.279 --> 00:29:19.039
And I'm just wondering if you can talk a little bit about your experience with mentors, how you went about identifying mentors, what your objectives were, perhaps in various situations, in a mentoring situation, and what you might say to the audience about the use of mentors.
00:29:19.279 --> 00:29:19.920
Yeah.
00:29:20.960 --> 00:29:24.400
I should have started a lot earlier, for sure.
00:29:25.039 --> 00:29:36.720
Um I used to, I think, identify and seek out higher-ups that were my champions and not necessarily my mentors.
00:29:37.279 --> 00:29:39.920
And I had good success early on with that.
00:29:40.400 --> 00:29:41.440
There's a huge difference.
00:29:42.480 --> 00:29:50.400
Um, and I'll tell you, you know, I I did I did reference the sort of um, you know, the Harvard MBA, you know, a Kaplan piece.
00:29:50.480 --> 00:29:55.759
And I think it wasn't until it was almost like a there was a certain group, and it wasn't the whole company, right?
00:29:55.920 --> 00:29:59.599
A certain group that was, I thought was like, you know, the Harvard NBA like boys' club kind of thing.
00:29:59.680 --> 00:30:01.359
And I didn't, I'm not a big sports guy.
00:30:01.440 --> 00:30:02.640
It was hard for me to like get in there.
00:30:02.720 --> 00:30:13.119
And then again, I I should have humbled myself a bit more and worked harder to assimilate, but it wasn't until we um got uh a female CAO.
00:30:13.599 --> 00:30:16.400
She was also CO, so Lauren Thomas Tovell.
00:30:16.640 --> 00:30:25.519
Um, and you know, there was it was easier, I think, for me to identify, you know, with her and her new approach that she was bringing into the company.
00:30:25.680 --> 00:30:28.240
And it was really Kaplan or for Kaplan.
00:30:28.480 --> 00:30:29.680
This is the Kaplan person.
00:30:30.079 --> 00:30:32.400
And, you know, she came with retail experience.
00:30:32.480 --> 00:30:36.240
And when you think about, you know, a lot of what Kaplan is is delivering service to people.
00:30:36.400 --> 00:30:37.759
We used to have centers.
00:30:37.920 --> 00:30:43.839
Um, there are some very in-depth, you know, month-long courses for doctors again, licensing them.
00:30:44.160 --> 00:30:49.200
Um it just had different perspective and didn't come from the the same cloth as others.
00:30:49.440 --> 00:31:06.799
And um, you know, being able to recognize that someone had different experiences and a different perspective, and also just a different sensibility, um, I was really much more willing to listen because I didn't automatically make the the conclusion of who they were and and and what they were gonna do.
00:31:07.359 --> 00:31:12.640
Um and and you know, she also she later became a champion, and that's when my my growth happened.
00:31:12.720 --> 00:31:16.319
But it wasn't the champion first, you know, based on one or two wins.
00:31:16.400 --> 00:31:19.599
It was I learned from her uh and then applied that later on.
00:31:19.680 --> 00:31:21.200
So that was that was, I think, a big one for me.
00:31:21.759 --> 00:31:33.680
I needed someone with a different background and expertise for me not to lump them all in the same and say, like, I can't learn from you, or the lessons that you have to teach me, I don't want to learn either at all or now.
00:31:33.920 --> 00:31:38.000
Um, but that was that was humbling for me, and I wish I would have done that a lot earlier.
00:31:38.319 --> 00:31:39.359
You're so right.
00:31:39.599 --> 00:31:42.480
The um you you you said it very well.
00:31:42.640 --> 00:31:50.079
The trick with mentors is first of all to be very clear about what your objective is.
00:31:50.319 --> 00:31:53.200
What is it that you want to accomplish with a mentor?
00:31:53.599 --> 00:31:58.559
That and and a lot of people are not, don't think that one through.
00:31:59.119 --> 00:32:01.920
A lot of people don't think that one through, but that's the first step.
00:32:02.079 --> 00:32:22.799
The second step is to identify, just as you said, colleagues, trusted colleagues who you know who bring very different perspective to the table than you necessarily have, because it stretches you.
00:32:23.200 --> 00:32:30.400
It stretches you, absolutely, albeit focused on a very specific objective that you want to work through with a mentor.
00:32:30.720 --> 00:32:36.559
And it's powerful, it's really powerful, it's really powerful.
00:32:37.039 --> 00:32:47.279
Um and I think it helps you, it helped me change my goal where I was trying to prove my value rather than building my value.
00:32:48.000 --> 00:32:54.400
Where you were trying to prove your value rather than build your value, very profound, very profound.
00:32:54.559 --> 00:33:04.960
And and um so many leaders and aspiring leaders feel the need to prove themselves.
00:33:05.119 --> 00:33:05.759
Yeah.
00:33:06.480 --> 00:33:11.839
When in fact what leadership is so much about is being.
00:33:12.160 --> 00:33:18.480
So we as we progress through our career, we start out as doers, like you did at Kaplan.
00:33:18.880 --> 00:33:22.240
You you got an amazing amount accomplished at Kaplan.
00:33:23.359 --> 00:33:46.960
And but when you move into the leadership roles, it starts to become much more about being and doing, but being, and going back to your points about empathy and being sensitive to the feelings of others, your particularly your internal, your employees' stakeholders, it buys you so much.
00:33:47.200 --> 00:33:47.519
Yeah.
00:33:47.839 --> 00:33:48.319
It buys you.
00:33:50.960 --> 00:34:00.160
Someone coming into an organization, or um, you know, I think so often we carry those lessons of the doers with us and we want to make an impact right away.
00:34:00.400 --> 00:34:02.880
And we, you know, big leaders come in, they change everything, right?
00:34:02.960 --> 00:34:12.639
They don't know enough about the business, but they change everything because they they feel like, well, you hired me to lead, and therefore I need to make my mark and show you what I did at other places and kind of slap it on here.
00:34:12.800 --> 00:34:20.559
Um, but I think that I mean, that's such a detriment, and I I think it it's also just borne a little bit of insecurity and arrogance at the same time.
00:34:20.719 --> 00:34:24.400
Um, but I think we're only restricted by what we already know.
00:34:24.559 --> 00:34:34.719
And you can't lead until you're able to assess the playing field and understand, you know, the organization, the people, uh, and then you can make the decisions after.
00:34:34.800 --> 00:34:47.360
And I think leaders often rush to task when that might be really a good decision when you're you know a lower-level employee, um, you know, just to learn how to do it and you're getting coached and people are watching.
00:34:47.440 --> 00:34:53.199
But when you're a leader, that is absolutely detrimental, not only to you, but to the entire organization.
00:34:53.280 --> 00:34:58.159
And there's been a lot of you know business crises as a result of those actions.
00:34:58.480 --> 00:34:59.440
It's absolutely true.
00:34:59.599 --> 00:35:26.239
I know a big transition for me, a hard transition for me in corporate America, transitioning to these leader roles, moving from someone who was very much uh who was a change agent, very focused on getting big things done, accomplished, moving things forward, growing, turning around businesses, that kind of thing.
00:35:26.320 --> 00:35:26.480
Yeah.
00:35:26.639 --> 00:35:55.519
And all of a sudden, I started getting feedback, thank God, from my trusted leadership team members who who where the environment was very safe for them to talk in the and they were giving me lots of feedback for a very long time about the fact that I needed to step back, let them do what they do well, let them do what they do well, to include learning from mistakes.
00:35:55.920 --> 00:36:03.119
And it was a profound journey for me, I know, to let go in that way, to let go in that way.
00:36:03.199 --> 00:36:07.599
And it's it's the being part of a leader is is huge.
00:36:07.679 --> 00:36:10.559
And I don't think we ever stop learning how to be.
00:36:11.039 --> 00:36:21.440
No, and I mean that's our growth, and that's also, you know, why we're being promoted into a role, but it's hard for us, like if if for people like you and me, you know, where we've been the change agents, we've done the work.
00:36:21.599 --> 00:36:26.639
So if we're now in a leadership role where we have to really focus on the things that are long term.
00:36:26.800 --> 00:36:27.119
Right.
00:36:27.199 --> 00:36:33.920
Uh, and I feel like I'm not being as effective as I can be to the company today, but that's no longer my role.
00:36:34.000 --> 00:36:37.679
Now, granted, if there are big issues that pop up, like those are the ones that should come to my plate.
00:36:37.760 --> 00:36:41.199
Like the number one issue facing the company should come to my plate today, right?
00:36:41.280 --> 00:36:51.519
But my impact is longer term, and we're I'm used to the more day-to-day, quarter-to-quarter milestone big projects that are tangible.
00:36:51.840 --> 00:37:02.639
And it's kind of a hard thing to say, I'm not gonna really see the fruits of my labor for one, two, three years, but the fabric of the company is gonna change.
00:37:02.960 --> 00:37:03.519
You know what?
00:37:03.679 --> 00:37:08.960
You know where you're gonna see your the fruits of your labor every single day, and I'm sure you do see it.
00:37:09.119 --> 00:37:20.079
Your impact is not long term, your impact is in the moment because I have a feeling that you are an amazing coach to your leaders, to your to your people.
00:37:20.960 --> 00:37:24.400
And that's what counts, coach and mentor, by the way.
00:37:25.119 --> 00:37:26.880
And that's what counts.
00:37:27.119 --> 00:37:36.239
And an awful lot of leaders don't they don't ascribe enough importance to being great coaches to their people.
00:37:36.960 --> 00:37:50.960
And when you do that, you create motivation that is off the charts, and it's why your NPS scores are so high, consistently high, I'm sure, at First Factory.
00:37:51.679 --> 00:37:55.920
So don't be thinking that you're that your impact as a leader is long term.
00:37:56.000 --> 00:37:57.199
You're making it in the moment.
00:37:57.519 --> 00:37:58.000
Fair enough.
00:37:58.639 --> 00:38:00.239
You're making it in the moment.
00:38:00.639 --> 00:38:02.719
I have one last question for you.
00:38:02.880 --> 00:38:03.199
Okay.
00:38:04.400 --> 00:38:16.239
If you could give one piece of advice to a leader standing at the edge of a major transition or inflection point in their career, what would it be?
00:38:21.519 --> 00:38:24.880
I I'd probably have to hearken back to the empathy piece.
00:38:24.960 --> 00:38:31.679
I mean, I really want to talk about the authenticity of leadership and building the credibility to lead, but you're not gonna do that in the moment.
00:38:31.760 --> 00:38:37.920
And if you haven't, if you haven't built that to that point, you're you're likely not gonna be successful.
00:38:38.079 --> 00:38:41.039
Um, so but that is a prerequisite for me, right?
00:38:41.199 --> 00:38:43.039
Is building the credibility to lead.
00:38:43.280 --> 00:38:45.440
But it is the it is the empathy part, right?
00:38:45.519 --> 00:38:54.480
Because there is no business without people, there is no team without togetherness, and you cannot expect the results that are necessary.
00:38:54.639 --> 00:39:01.840
You can't expect people to to to go into battle like with you uh if if you're not empathetic, you know, to their needs.
00:39:02.000 --> 00:39:11.760
Um, and you know, again, we we talked about it before, like people are the business, people are uh that is our job is managing coaching people to so that we get through the next challenges.
00:39:11.920 --> 00:39:13.679
I I think that's the big piece.
00:39:14.239 --> 00:39:15.760
You are amazing.
00:39:16.000 --> 00:39:16.960
You are amazing.
00:39:17.119 --> 00:39:18.000
I totally agree with that.
00:39:19.440 --> 00:39:20.639
No, I relate to you.
00:39:20.719 --> 00:39:47.920
I completely relate to you, and I think that the um the being able to be sensitive to the feelings of deeply sensitive to the feelings of others in particular when you're a driver of change, and particularly when you're constantly in the midst of continuous change, where you want your people to be emboldened, where you want your people to have the courage of their conviction to go for big change.
00:39:48.159 --> 00:39:48.480
For sure.
00:39:48.800 --> 00:39:50.800
That's gonna really make a difference.
00:39:51.440 --> 00:39:55.280
Really connecting with them at a more personal level.
00:39:55.679 --> 00:39:58.719
And I'm talking about on a professional basis, of course.
00:39:58.960 --> 00:39:59.599
Yes, of course.
00:39:59.920 --> 00:40:03.760
But but um it's it's just critically important.
00:40:03.840 --> 00:40:04.320
It's crazy.
00:40:04.559 --> 00:40:09.199
But you're also teaching them the lessons that they're going to learn to lead later.
00:40:09.360 --> 00:40:14.400
And I think, you know, too often, you know, there are, you know, I mean, stereotypes are based in truth, right?
00:40:14.480 --> 00:40:17.280
And you think of leaders and you think of these dominant, you know, figures.
00:40:17.360 --> 00:40:23.280
And it's like dominance in an industry, in a business, is not about hurting a competitor, right?
00:40:23.440 --> 00:40:24.800
It's not about doing damage.
00:40:24.960 --> 00:40:27.760
It is about leading by setting the standard.
00:40:28.159 --> 00:40:45.199
And if you're able to do that and focus the team on here's the here's the inflection point, here's where we need to get to, here's the hard truth, here's the uncertainty, here's what we want to do is set a standard that is going to allow us to excel and maintain that position later on.
00:40:45.519 --> 00:40:49.840
That is what we're teaching, you know, not something that is what you're doing.
00:40:51.440 --> 00:40:58.559
You're creating a safe environment for your people to be creative and innovate and make mistakes and learn from them.
00:40:58.960 --> 00:40:59.760
That's what you're doing.
00:41:00.000 --> 00:41:13.440
And that and and I'm I'm glad you say that because that is exactly why Jason started the company and called it First Factory, because the factory is a nod to Andy Warhol's the factory and just a safe space where artists could collaborate together and do their best work.
00:41:13.760 --> 00:41:14.960
Oh, isn't that interesting?
00:41:15.280 --> 00:41:20.000
Yeah, that really is you know what I think of as well in terms of what we're doing there.
00:41:20.159 --> 00:41:24.480
And look, my employees are a lot smarter than me in almost every area.
00:41:24.719 --> 00:41:29.920
And so to allow them to be creative and shine, I learn more, they develop, um, we all lift each other.
00:41:30.400 --> 00:41:31.039
Everybody wins.
00:41:31.119 --> 00:41:31.679
Everybody wins.
00:41:32.079 --> 00:41:32.639
Totally correct.
00:41:32.800 --> 00:41:32.960
Yeah.
00:41:33.119 --> 00:41:33.280
Yep.
00:41:33.440 --> 00:41:33.679
Yeah.
00:41:33.920 --> 00:41:35.920
Well, Don, this has been tremendous.
00:41:36.159 --> 00:41:36.880
This has been tremendous.
00:41:37.280 --> 00:41:37.920
Appreciate that so much.
00:41:38.079 --> 00:41:39.599
Thank you so much for your time.
00:41:39.760 --> 00:41:51.199
And thank you most of all for your candor and your openness and sharing some of the stories that that perhaps were a little bit more challenging for you and lessons learned.
00:41:51.440 --> 00:41:56.159
And I'm sure the audience is will have learned a great deal from this.
00:41:56.320 --> 00:41:56.559
Thank you.
00:41:56.880 --> 00:41:57.360
I hope so.
00:41:57.519 --> 00:41:57.760
Thank you.
00:41:57.840 --> 00:41:58.559
This was so enjoyable.
00:41:59.039 --> 00:42:00.639
Have a great day and week.
00:42:01.519 --> 00:42:03.519
You too, bye, Don.
