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Hello, thank you everyone for joining the show today. I'm very,
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very excited to have Janice Perkins, who you're going to
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find is really a spectacular individual. She is able to
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tap into your hidden potential that most people often don't
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see in themselves. And Janice can help bring that out
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through her coaching and through her executive experience. And she
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has helped many, many leaders and executives really find out
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how to shine and what's their secret sauce. So with that,
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I'd like to introduce Janice Perkins.
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Good morning, Linda. Such a pleasure to be here this morning.
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Well, it's so nice to have you, Janice. I just
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think back of that great fun time we had in Washington, D.C.,
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out in the garden and, you know, talking. And it
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was just it was just. Wonderful. So expert on chemistry
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in coaching. I love that tagline. That's beautiful. What made
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you pick that?
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Thank you.
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Well, I just finished my PhD in May and my
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research was on chemistry.
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Congratulations. Thank you. That's a big deal. I saw the
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doctor in front of your name. That's a big deal. Yeah.
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It felt like giving birth for sure.
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I'm just really fascinated by the connections that happen between
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people and the acceleration that can take place. Part of
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it comes from a fascination of coaching sports for a
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while and also being an athlete and seeing how on
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the athletic side, leadership, embraces the use of chemistry more
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than on the corporate side.
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And so I really wanted to understand in coaching, right?
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Chemistry really builds momentum in the practice of coaching itself.
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And how can we learn what it is, how it's
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built and how to teach others to use it?
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Wow. So you are really starting your next now. Your
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next is Dr. Janice Perkins helping people with their chemistry.
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How do you help people to tap into what their
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chemistry is? How do you get them to discover that? Mm-hmm.
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The interesting thing about chemistry is that it has to
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manifest between two people, right?
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It's not just individually held.
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Although what I did find in certain situations, Linda, that
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I found fascinating is that within a relationship, chemistry can
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be asymmetrical. So one person can carry the chemistry until
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the other person catches it, so to speak.
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Interesting. Interesting.
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Interesting, especially the outcomes for leaders relative to that and
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other coaches is that in any relationship, there is ownership
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on both people to eventually, right, share in the chemistry
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and the space between them. But we do have a
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responsibility as the coach or as the leader to hold
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the chemistry or carry it when others can't.
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Wow. So do people eventually catch joint chemistry together? I mean,
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does it eventually become that sort of chemical spark between
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the two of them?
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You know, interestingly enough, in all my coaching pairs, yes.
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But what I did find is there are different layers
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to chemistry. Meaning for some people, it's very transactional. And
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for other people, it can be all the way down
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to being felt somatically, right? Like The chemistry gave me,
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you know, goosebumps or that aha moment or something like that,
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that's more felt.
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But for others, it is the conversation just flowed easily, right?
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And so it's much more transactional, but all of them
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felt chemistry.
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It just manifested at different stages for each of them.
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So how does this way, I know this is off
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your topic just a little bit, but how does this
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manifest itself in love relationships? Because love relationships that people
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often talk about, well, we just had this chemistry, but
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sometimes that's not enough and it doesn't work out. So
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do you have any insight into that?
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I am going to take a couple guesses at it.
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I think it's really interesting because chemistry in that romantic
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sense is what we understand, or.
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Maybe in athletics.
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And I do think that related to the intimacy of
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a romantic relationship, there are other things that play into it,
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including other hormones.
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And other things, right, that.
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Make us attracted biologically to certain people that play into chemistry.
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But I do think that that adds to the chemistry
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happening quickly. But I think it can happen like you
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and I, we experienced in the first time we met
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on the patio, we had very instant chemistry in orientation, right?
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We both felt there were so many commonalities, but we
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were also kind of mutually oriented in that situation to
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being open and vulnerable to each other and sharing. And
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when you enter the space with the same mindset, that
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automatically creates some of that orientation that where chemistry can thrive.
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Wow, that's really, really interesting. So Janice, how did you
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get into this? How did you, was this a long
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journey for you that you discovered this? What brought you
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into this space in the first place?
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I think initially when I was coaching my daughter in
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volleyball for probably about eight years, as well as just
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remembering being an athlete, there are so many times when
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the right people on the court aren't exactly the same
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every single time. It's a really interesting thing that one
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player's mindset, mentality, everybody can be off. And it's not...
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an easy equation that that player is the best at
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that position. And so everything should be better. Sometimes the
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chemistry on the court is what you're looking for and
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you can't guess until you get the right people in it.
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And that was always really interesting to me because it's unpredictable.
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And it moves and it's flexible and pliable. And you
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have to be open to, as a coach, to not
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try to force the equation to be exactly what you
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want it to be for the outcomes. And I just
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realized the more I got into coaching that the same
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factor was at play and what happens in a coaching relationship,
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and how much we don't understand that from a leadership perspective,
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and we're not utilizing it. Especially when I hear leaders
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talk about learning techniques, and they're focused on engagement, and
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all these other disciplines related to leadership. And yet, energetically,
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they're buzzwords, and we can know about them all day.
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And develop them.
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Yet, if energetically my mindset isn't open to chemistry, I'm
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probably not utilizing or tapping into even half of what
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I could be in the relationship.
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So have you had situations? What do you do actually
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when you can't tap into somebody's chemistry or you have
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a group of people and the chemistry is just, A,
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have you had situations like that? And then what do
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you do?
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Well, I actually had recently a team that I was
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working with that had been in.
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They.
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Were in a divisive kind of situation and they weren't
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very collaborative.
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And I did two things.
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One, I had everyone stand up and stand beside each
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other in a row as a physical reminder that we
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were all on one team against whatever obstacles.
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Sometimes.
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putting the.
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Physicality of the situation back in the right position changes
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our mindset.
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And so that's kind of how we started.
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And then I also had them do an activity where
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we were all physically interacting. We actually kind of like stomped, snapped, clapped,
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and like made a song together. And forcing collaboration into
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a completely other area before asking for it to come
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into the intellectual were two different pathways that I was
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using to build that chemistry before we went into the
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subject matter, if that makes sense.
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That makes a ton of sense. And did it work?
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It did.
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Absolutely.
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Are you still working with that group today? Yes, I am.
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I have a follow-up next month with them. And by
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the end of this, we were together like two and
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a half hours. There was openness, vulnerability, sharing, cooperation. There
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was all this really amazing transactional. I did an interview,
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each of them individually, to find out where they felt right.
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The level of chemistry, but everything shifted.
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Well, that's really great. Now, do you ever, I have
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this personal experience where you get people into that phase
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and then you have them stay overnight together where they're,
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you know, at a retreat or something and they have
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to have dinner and they have to do all this stuff.
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And then the next day they just take off like rockets.
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Have you experienced that? Yeah, I have.
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I did a similar retreat a year or so ago
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with another leadership team that was also struggling and wanted
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to do a retreat and escape.
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And the very same thing happened. We opened the retreat.
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And by the next day, there was more cohesiveness. And
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I think that also happens because you're outside of your
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typical geography and your working environment.
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Right.
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And that can help you up too.
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Right.
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Right.
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So, so Janice, now that you've gotten, well, oh, I
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have another question before this one. What was your worst nightmare?
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With a client? Yeah. Or situation. There was a client
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or situation, but worst nightmare.
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There was one coaching client that I had that, It
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wasn't really a nightmare. The client just wasn't making progress anymore.
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And I think that the relationship had gotten comfortable. And
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there wasn't as much allowance for me to challenge or
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create tension for growth. And because of that, I really
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just had to let that client go.
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So that was just an uncomfortable.
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It was.
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Maybe an 18-month coaching engagement.
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And by that time, it was.
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It had just, it had passed its viability, I think,
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as a stage in that relationship. That was just hard
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because I really wanted the client to continue growing. The
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other situation that was incredibly challenging for me was a
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particular client and they wanted to do some leadership development
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training for a blue collar sector of the organization, their manufacturing,
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and it required a translator. And it was my first
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experience doing that. And I would do it much differently.
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In fact, what we talked about doing with the client
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is really having probably headset translators would have been more fluid,
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but it was cost prohibitive. So we had a live
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translator and it just broke the rhythm of the training, right?
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It broke the rhythm of the training for both myself
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and the recipients of the content and the translator.
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And so.
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I feel like it was just an absolute chemistry killer
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because there was too, there was too much time in
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between things and there wasn't a flow of information. So
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I would just do it very differently if I did
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that in the future. That was, but that was like,
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you know, you're in it and you just got to
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stay with it.
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What do you do? And we, we kept.
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Laughing that it was awkward and clunky and we were.
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Just going to keep moving. Yeah. Yeah. I've had that
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happen to me, too, in Japan. It was horrible. I
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hate it. And I've also had it with the headphones.
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That's not a hell of a lot better, I don't think.
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Probably not. But it is difficult. It's difficult to keep
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that connection and that chemistry going with the group. Right.
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So now that you're Dr. Janice Perkins, how exciting. What's
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next for you? What's the next big thing on your horizon? Horizon. Hmm.
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That's a really good question. I have been doing a
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lot more writing.
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I definitely want to kind of translate the research that
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I found in my dissertation into public facing content that
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people can use. And so I'm actually writing on the
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academic side and the public side. And I just got
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back my first, apparently in academia, it's very, it's great news.
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I got a revise and.
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So that the research itself over a series of articles
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can really be published on the academic side for other researchers.
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There are lots of theoretical implications into some of the
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leadership theory related to my research, which was really, that's
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really fun, that there's gonna be like a long lasting
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impact in the leadership theory field. And then just translating
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all of that on to the public side. So other
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coaches and leaders can benefit from right? The learned aspect
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of chemistry, right? Sometimes, sometimes chemistry in its instantaneous nature
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can't be contained or controlled. It's a little bit like fire,
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but also you can put the right ingredients there and
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still build it. And so I think that that is
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the important thing for us to understand about it.
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So what are some of the right ingredients to put
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there so you can build it? I mean, obviously you
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can see it, but you know, somebody who's in the
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midst of it can't maybe necessarily see it. Right.
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I think what I, from the research, there were a
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couple of simple ingredients in the soup that didn't guarantee chemistry,
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but definitely were present. And from the coach side, the
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credibility and safety, the, in that relational container or that
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relational space, a tuned presence and Shared ownership, meaning that
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you allow the client to guide the exchange in the
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coaching session. And then also continuity. So that opening the
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session is consistent. My welcome, how we warm up and
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get to know each other, how we close, right? That
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I'm continuously showing up in a very consistent way and
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it creates continuity.
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From the client side, there really has to.
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There has to be a willingness and a readiness and
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openness to challenge so that I might be willing, but
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I might have limitations to how much I let you
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challenge me, right?
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That's a chemistry killer.
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And that there's a reciprocal engagement so that there's an
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acceptance to the tension and challenge and an ownership of
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the outcome and the process. And those things, when they're
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in the soup, have a much more likelihood than of
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chemistry opening. And what I call it, what I found
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in the research is that chemistry opens through one or
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more gates.
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Oh, interesting.
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It doesn't have to look or open the same each time,
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but there are six different gates. And that is after
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the ingredients are in the soup, that it can come.
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Out through legitimacy, right?
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In the way that there's credibility and competence that the
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client then opens that chemistry to the coach, right?
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Or whether it's through dignity, right?
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In the exchange of how I show up respectfully to
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you or how they show.
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Up respectfully to you too. That's exactly right.
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That's exactly right.
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People see being valued and seen for who they are, right?
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And listening to that, that's really important. The other is
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through the relational container, right? And there are some coaches,
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and you know this, Linda, you do such an established
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job when we connected. The relational container we both brought
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to each other was like beautifully open. And that is
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something that leaders and coaches both can do. There's clear
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structure and boundaries, but also a great deal of openness.
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That readiness and willingness... is through agency, right?
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The ability for as a coach or a leader.
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To constantly put back agency to the people that I'm
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exchanging with, the way that I attune to the person.
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So attunement is another one through listening, validation, the responsiveness
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and deep listening. And then that orientation gate that I
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mentioned that you and I had even, where we had
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mutual shared direction and commonality, And whether that's goals, purpose, values, right,
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just common ground, that simply itself can also open chemistry.
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So those were the things that I found that were
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really interesting. All of them don't have to be present.
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One can simply open it.
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You know, it's interesting. I had an experience. I was
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just on Long Island, as you know, and I ran
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into two people who actually were in the leadership field
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and they actually were reasonably well known. I won't use
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their names, but those two people stood there and talked
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at me for the better part of 20 minutes. And,
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and I mean, I know you've had that happen to
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yourself and you just sort of go, I can't wait
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to get out of here. But why do people, it
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just shocked me that people with a high degree of
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education and frankly, what you would think that they would
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have enough agency not to do something like that, but
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they didn't. What do you do in a situation like that?
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You know, the interesting thing about chemistry, and I had
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that happen to me recently too, Linda, and a four-person
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kind of conversation, professional conversation, and one person kept interjecting
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their resume consistently.
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Right?
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And what I found was.
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The killers of chemistry are all wrapped up in avoidance, control,
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and power. And so when one of those is exercised
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by any member of the team or the group, it
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kills chemistry across the entire band, right?
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It's almost like popping a balloon.
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So the more that interjection of ego through power or
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control or in the situation that I encountered, right, the
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constantly trying to prove myself with a resume, right, that's
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not credibility, that's power.
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The way it was showing up.
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And so there was really no reason for me to
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continue to lean in. right?
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The chemistry is dead in that circle. I can remain present.
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I can remain in a transactional state and see if
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the resume, right, proving ends and the conversation could eventually
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open chemistry, but I can also just recognize it for
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what it is, right?
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It doesn't enable anything to grow at that point.
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You know, when I see something like that happening, I
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personally feel that you're dealing with an incredibly insecure individual,
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that the individual themselves probably needs a fair degree of
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coaching and help and insight into themselves as why they
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need to do that. Right.
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Well, and they're not interested in you in that moment, right?
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They're not interested in an exchange of information or curiosity, right?
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And that's that there's no openness or willingness or readiness
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for the space between us to grow in the way
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that we interact and share with each other. And really
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one of the theories that I leaned into, which.
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Comes through collective.
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Leadership theory is from South Africa. It's the concept of Ubuntu,
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which is I am because you are.
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I love that.
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I am because we are. And so I am forever
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changed by our exchange and, right? And that is the
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kind of like openness and willingness that chemistry really requires.
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And when someone doesn't have that mindset, like the ingredients
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just aren't in the soup, plus they also brought a grenade, right?
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If they're only interested in talking at you, then there
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isn't an exchange for the space between us to grow.
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Yeah. You know what happens to me when something like
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that happens? I just don't say anything. I just sit
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back and just listen and then make a judgment as
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to whether I'm going to have anything to do with
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that individual or that group again. And it's funny, eventually
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people will take a breath and say, oh, well, what
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about you? Well, by this point, I have no interest
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in telling anybody anything about myself. You know, has that
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ever happened? I mean, yeah, you could have contributed a ton, but,
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you know, I can't be bothered. So do you have
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a book in you, Janice? I think you have a
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book in you. Yes.
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I believe there is a book coming maybe sometime next
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year by the time I finish. I have a couple
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of the academic articles that I want to keep writing
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so that hopefully that gets published on the theory side
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so that I'm contributing to future theory and then translating
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that into a public-facing book is definitely in the future. Okay.
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So can you share where they're going to be published?
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The articles are going to be published or so we
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can keep an eye out.
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I will post the, the academic articles like the, the
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newsletters when, when they are published.
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Yes. Oh, okay. So you'll post them on your LinkedIn
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or your, your very good. That's great. So tell me, think,
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think three years out. Where do you see Janice Perkins? Dr.
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Janice Perkins.
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I want to definitely do more writing and speaking so
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that I can further do more research and impact related
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to chemistry in the field of leadership and coaching. I
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do believe it's a wild card that we haven't been playing, right?
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When it comes to the benefits and creating that continuity
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and momentum and outcome, all of us contributing into leadership
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have been doing this work for a long time.
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And you know, content itself isn't enough, right?
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And it's not even just the behavior of manifesting the
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application of content. And to me, this is the energetic
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source that can accelerate all of the other content and
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applications that we use and make it more successful. So
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that's what I hope to be doing more.
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Well, you know what I love about this? It's sort
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of like secret sauce and chemistry is one of those
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words that's always been thrown around oh they don't have
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any chemistry or you know i mean even so many
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different walks of life you know like i didn't feel
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any chemistry or i really feel and it's sort of
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an elusive word and that you put you put some
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boundaries around it and some things around it that that
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people can see and recognize and touch and aside from
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just feeling because you do feel whether you have chemistry
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or not right Yes. So if you have chemistry and
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you feel it, how do you keep it? Can you
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keep it replicated?
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Yes.
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I think that's the most beautiful thing. I only watched
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the coaching. Each of the coaching peers only had three sessions.
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And you think in coaching, that's not very much time
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at all to really build chemistry and grow. But the
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interesting thing is that trust maybe wasn't there, but chemistry was.
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And chemistry can create outcome before trust is manifested. As
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long as I create that continuity, the more there was
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rhythm and continuity from session to session, the more that
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it increased the ability for chemistry to automatically be there
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again the next time.
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So trust is a big factor.
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It is in the long term.
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It's an outcome, really.
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And I thought that trust was going to be at
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the beginning of chemistry. But in fact, chemistry is really
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more the precursor to trust being formed farther down the road.
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Oh, that's very, very interesting. Well, Janice, I wish you
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all the luck in the world, and anything I can
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personally do to support you would be out there. I'm
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just so excited that you got that PhD. I do know, actually,
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how much work that goes into all of that. So
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how do people get a hold of you? And how
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do they connect with you and get you into their
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organizations to help them? Absolutely.
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Find me on LinkedIn, Janice Perkins, as well as my website.
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The organization that I created is called Capacity. And so
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the website is IHaveCapacity.com. You can book an appointment with
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me straight from the website. And there's a link from
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LinkedIn to that as well. Or on Instagram, I am
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Janice Perkey.
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Oh, Janice Perky. I could make a little, the Perky
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Janice person.
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That's right.
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That's right. That's how you find me.
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And also I have a YouTube channel under capacity and
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my name that also has lots of content on it.
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That's I've been nerding out talking about chemistry now for
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a couple of months.
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Oh, that's great. Oh, I love it. I'm going to
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have to go on. So what's the channel. I mean,
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Is that a stupid question? Should I know?
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Janice Perkins.
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Oh, wow. That's very exciting.
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And one final question. Didn't you just get back from Spain? Well,
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I was in Spain a couple of years ago. My
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sister was stationed there and it was lovely. I went
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to Montana this summer.
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Oh, okay. Nice. What did you love about it? I
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did not do.
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Um, Montana, the raw beauty, uh, was really, really, and
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there was a lot less commercialism, a lot less tourism that,
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you know, it's very much a hiking, fishing, hunting kind
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of community. And so there's just a lot less commercialization
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than there is like in Colorado or even around the Tetons.
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So I thought that was really marvelous. We went all
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the way up near a glacier.
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Oh, wow. Wow.
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Wow.
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But Janice, I can't thank you enough. Congratulations on your doctorate,
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on your articles. I can't wait to see your book
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when it comes out. I think you have really hit
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on something extremely important for relationships, not only in coaching,
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but in general for relationships, because chemistry is such a
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bantied around word that people really, I'm not sure really understand.
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And you've put some real... insight and clarity into it.
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And I think that's really great.
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Thank you so much, Linda. It was a pleasure. It
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was lovely to see you. I'm thankful for the audience.
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I'm thankful too. And join me next week on Tuesday.
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We will have another insightful discussion on leadership and what
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things are brewing on the leadership front. Thanks a bunch
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for coming on board.
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The topics and opinions expressed in the following show are
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solely those of the host and their guests and not
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Hello, thank you everyone for joining the show today. I'm very,
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very excited to have Janice Perkins, who you're going to
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find is really a spectacular individual. She is able to
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tap into your hidden potential that most people often don't
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see in themselves. And Janice can help bring that out
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through her coaching and through her executive experience. And she
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has helped many, many leaders and executives really find out
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how to shine and what's their secret sauce. So with that,
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I'd like to introduce Janice Perkins.
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Good morning, Linda. Such a pleasure to be here this morning.
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Well, it's so nice to have you, Janice. I just
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think back of that great fun time we had in Washington, D.C.,
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out in the garden and, you know, talking. And it
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was just it was just. Wonderful. So expert on chemistry
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in coaching. I love that tagline. That's beautiful. What made
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you pick that?
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Thank you.
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Well, I just finished my PhD in May and my
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research was on chemistry.
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Congratulations. Thank you. That's a big deal. I saw the
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doctor in front of your name. That's a big deal. Yeah.
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It felt like giving birth for sure.
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I'm just really fascinated by the connections that happen between
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people and the acceleration that can take place. Part of
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it comes from a fascination of coaching sports for a
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while and also being an athlete and seeing how on
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the athletic side, leadership, embraces the use of chemistry more
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than on the corporate side.
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And so I really wanted to understand in coaching, right?
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Chemistry really builds momentum in the practice of coaching itself.
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And how can we learn what it is, how it's
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built and how to teach others to use it?
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Wow. So you are really starting your next now. Your
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next is Dr. Janice Perkins helping people with their chemistry.
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How do you help people to tap into what their
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chemistry is? How do you get them to discover that? Mm-hmm.
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The interesting thing about chemistry is that it has to
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manifest between two people, right?
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It's not just individually held.
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Although what I did find in certain situations, Linda, that
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I found fascinating is that within a relationship, chemistry can
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be asymmetrical. So one person can carry the chemistry until
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the other person catches it, so to speak.
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Interesting. Interesting.
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Interesting, especially the outcomes for leaders relative to that and
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other coaches is that in any relationship, there is ownership
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on both people to eventually, right, share in the chemistry
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and the space between them. But we do have a
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responsibility as the coach or as the leader to hold
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the chemistry or carry it when others can't.
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Wow. So do people eventually catch joint chemistry together? I mean,
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does it eventually become that sort of chemical spark between
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the two of them?
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You know, interestingly enough, in all my coaching pairs, yes.
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But what I did find is there are different layers
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to chemistry. Meaning for some people, it's very transactional. And
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for other people, it can be all the way down
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to being felt somatically, right? Like The chemistry gave me,
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you know, goosebumps or that aha moment or something like that,
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that's more felt.
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But for others, it is the conversation just flowed easily, right?
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And so it's much more transactional, but all of them
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felt chemistry.
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It just manifested at different stages for each of them.
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So how does this way, I know this is off
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your topic just a little bit, but how does this
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manifest itself in love relationships? Because love relationships that people
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often talk about, well, we just had this chemistry, but
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sometimes that's not enough and it doesn't work out. So
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do you have any insight into that?
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I am going to take a couple guesses at it.
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I think it's really interesting because chemistry in that romantic
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sense is what we understand, or.
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Maybe in athletics.
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And I do think that related to the intimacy of
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a romantic relationship, there are other things that play into it,
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including other hormones.
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And other things, right, that.
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Make us attracted biologically to certain people that play into chemistry.
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But I do think that that adds to the chemistry
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happening quickly. But I think it can happen like you
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and I, we experienced in the first time we met
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on the patio, we had very instant chemistry in orientation, right?
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We both felt there were so many commonalities, but we
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were also kind of mutually oriented in that situation to
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being open and vulnerable to each other and sharing. And
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when you enter the space with the same mindset, that
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automatically creates some of that orientation that where chemistry can thrive.
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Wow, that's really, really interesting. So Janice, how did you
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get into this? How did you, was this a long
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journey for you that you discovered this? What brought you
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into this space in the first place?
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I think initially when I was coaching my daughter in
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volleyball for probably about eight years, as well as just
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remembering being an athlete, there are so many times when
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the right people on the court aren't exactly the same
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every single time. It's a really interesting thing that one
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player's mindset, mentality, everybody can be off. And it's not...
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an easy equation that that player is the best at
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that position. And so everything should be better. Sometimes the
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chemistry on the court is what you're looking for and
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you can't guess until you get the right people in it.
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And that was always really interesting to me because it's unpredictable.
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And it moves and it's flexible and pliable. And you
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have to be open to, as a coach, to not
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try to force the equation to be exactly what you
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want it to be for the outcomes. And I just
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realized the more I got into coaching that the same
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factor was at play and what happens in a coaching relationship,
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and how much we don't understand that from a leadership perspective,
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and we're not utilizing it. Especially when I hear leaders
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talk about learning techniques, and they're focused on engagement, and
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all these other disciplines related to leadership. And yet, energetically,
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they're buzzwords, and we can know about them all day.
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And develop them.
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Yet, if energetically my mindset isn't open to chemistry, I'm
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probably not utilizing or tapping into even half of what
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I could be in the relationship.
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So have you had situations? What do you do actually
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when you can't tap into somebody's chemistry or you have
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a group of people and the chemistry is just, A,
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have you had situations like that? And then what do
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you do?
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Well, I actually had recently a team that I was
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working with that had been in.
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They.
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Were in a divisive kind of situation and they weren't
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very collaborative.
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And I did two things.
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One, I had everyone stand up and stand beside each
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other in a row as a physical reminder that we
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were all on one team against whatever obstacles.
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Sometimes.
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putting the.
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Physicality of the situation back in the right position changes
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our mindset.
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And so that's kind of how we started.
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And then I also had them do an activity where
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we were all physically interacting. We actually kind of like stomped, snapped, clapped,
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and like made a song together. And forcing collaboration into
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a completely other area before asking for it to come
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into the intellectual were two different pathways that I was
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using to build that chemistry before we went into the
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subject matter, if that makes sense.
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That makes a ton of sense. And did it work?
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It did.
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Absolutely.
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Are you still working with that group today? Yes, I am.
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I have a follow-up next month with them. And by
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the end of this, we were together like two and
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a half hours. There was openness, vulnerability, sharing, cooperation. There
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was all this really amazing transactional. I did an interview,
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each of them individually, to find out where they felt right.
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The level of chemistry, but everything shifted.
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Well, that's really great. Now, do you ever, I have
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this personal experience where you get people into that phase
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and then you have them stay overnight together where they're,
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you know, at a retreat or something and they have
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to have dinner and they have to do all this stuff.
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And then the next day they just take off like rockets.
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Have you experienced that? Yeah, I have.
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I did a similar retreat a year or so ago
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with another leadership team that was also struggling and wanted
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to do a retreat and escape.
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And the very same thing happened. We opened the retreat.
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And by the next day, there was more cohesiveness. And
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I think that also happens because you're outside of your
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typical geography and your working environment.
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Right.
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And that can help you up too.
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Right.
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Right.
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So, so Janice, now that you've gotten, well, oh, I
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have another question before this one. What was your worst nightmare?
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With a client? Yeah. Or situation. There was a client
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or situation, but worst nightmare.
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There was one coaching client that I had that, It
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wasn't really a nightmare. The client just wasn't making progress anymore.
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And I think that the relationship had gotten comfortable. And
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there wasn't as much allowance for me to challenge or
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create tension for growth. And because of that, I really
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just had to let that client go.
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So that was just an uncomfortable.
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It was.
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Maybe an 18-month coaching engagement.
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And by that time, it was.
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It had just, it had passed its viability, I think,
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as a stage in that relationship. That was just hard
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because I really wanted the client to continue growing. The
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other situation that was incredibly challenging for me was a
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particular client and they wanted to do some leadership development
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training for a blue collar sector of the organization, their manufacturing,
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and it required a translator. And it was my first
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experience doing that. And I would do it much differently.
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In fact, what we talked about doing with the client
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is really having probably headset translators would have been more fluid,
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but it was cost prohibitive. So we had a live
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translator and it just broke the rhythm of the training, right?
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It broke the rhythm of the training for both myself
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and the recipients of the content and the translator.
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And so.
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I feel like it was just an absolute chemistry killer
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because there was too, there was too much time in
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between things and there wasn't a flow of information. So
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I would just do it very differently if I did
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that in the future. That was, but that was like,
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you know, you're in it and you just got to
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stay with it.
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What do you do? And we, we kept.
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Laughing that it was awkward and clunky and we were.
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Just going to keep moving. Yeah. Yeah. I've had that
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happen to me, too, in Japan. It was horrible. I
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hate it. And I've also had it with the headphones.
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That's not a hell of a lot better, I don't think.
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Probably not. But it is difficult. It's difficult to keep
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that connection and that chemistry going with the group. Right.
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So now that you're Dr. Janice Perkins, how exciting. What's
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next for you? What's the next big thing on your horizon? Horizon. Hmm.
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That's a really good question. I have been doing a
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lot more writing.
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I definitely want to kind of translate the research that
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I found in my dissertation into public facing content that
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people can use. And so I'm actually writing on the
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academic side and the public side. And I just got
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back my first, apparently in academia, it's very, it's great news.
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I got a revise and.
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So that the research itself over a series of articles
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can really be published on the academic side for other researchers.
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There are lots of theoretical implications into some of the
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leadership theory related to my research, which was really, that's
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really fun, that there's gonna be like a long lasting
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impact in the leadership theory field. And then just translating
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all of that on to the public side. So other
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coaches and leaders can benefit from right? The learned aspect
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of chemistry, right? Sometimes, sometimes chemistry in its instantaneous nature
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can't be contained or controlled. It's a little bit like fire,
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but also you can put the right ingredients there and
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still build it. And so I think that that is
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the important thing for us to understand about it.
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So what are some of the right ingredients to put
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there so you can build it? I mean, obviously you
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can see it, but you know, somebody who's in the
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midst of it can't maybe necessarily see it. Right.
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I think what I, from the research, there were a
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couple of simple ingredients in the soup that didn't guarantee chemistry,
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but definitely were present. And from the coach side, the
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credibility and safety, the, in that relational container or that
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relational space, a tuned presence and Shared ownership, meaning that
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you allow the client to guide the exchange in the
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coaching session. And then also continuity. So that opening the
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session is consistent. My welcome, how we warm up and
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get to know each other, how we close, right? That
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I'm continuously showing up in a very consistent way and
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it creates continuity.
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From the client side, there really has to.
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There has to be a willingness and a readiness and
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openness to challenge so that I might be willing, but
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I might have limitations to how much I let you
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challenge me, right?
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That's a chemistry killer.
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And that there's a reciprocal engagement so that there's an
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acceptance to the tension and challenge and an ownership of
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the outcome and the process. And those things, when they're
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in the soup, have a much more likelihood than of
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chemistry opening. And what I call it, what I found
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in the research is that chemistry opens through one or
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more gates.
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Oh, interesting.
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It doesn't have to look or open the same each time,
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but there are six different gates. And that is after
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the ingredients are in the soup, that it can come.
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Out through legitimacy, right?
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In the way that there's credibility and competence that the
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client then opens that chemistry to the coach, right?
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Or whether it's through dignity, right?
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In the exchange of how I show up respectfully to
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you or how they show.
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Up respectfully to you too. That's exactly right.
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That's exactly right.
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People see being valued and seen for who they are, right?
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And listening to that, that's really important. The other is
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through the relational container, right? And there are some coaches,
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and you know this, Linda, you do such an established
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job when we connected. The relational container we both brought
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to each other was like beautifully open. And that is
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something that leaders and coaches both can do. There's clear
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structure and boundaries, but also a great deal of openness.
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That readiness and willingness... is through agency, right?
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The ability for as a coach or a leader.
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To constantly put back agency to the people that I'm
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exchanging with, the way that I attune to the person.
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So attunement is another one through listening, validation, the responsiveness
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and deep listening. And then that orientation gate that I
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mentioned that you and I had even, where we had
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mutual shared direction and commonality, And whether that's goals, purpose, values, right,
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just common ground, that simply itself can also open chemistry.
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So those were the things that I found that were
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really interesting. All of them don't have to be present.
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One can simply open it.
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You know, it's interesting. I had an experience. I was
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just on Long Island, as you know, and I ran
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into two people who actually were in the leadership field
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and they actually were reasonably well known. I won't use
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their names, but those two people stood there and talked
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at me for the better part of 20 minutes. And,
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and I mean, I know you've had that happen to
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yourself and you just sort of go, I can't wait
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to get out of here. But why do people, it
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just shocked me that people with a high degree of
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education and frankly, what you would think that they would
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have enough agency not to do something like that, but
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they didn't. What do you do in a situation like that?
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You know, the interesting thing about chemistry, and I had
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that happen to me recently too, Linda, and a four-person
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kind of conversation, professional conversation, and one person kept interjecting
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their resume consistently.
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Right?
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And what I found was.
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The killers of chemistry are all wrapped up in avoidance, control,
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and power. And so when one of those is exercised
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by any member of the team or the group, it
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kills chemistry across the entire band, right?
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It's almost like popping a balloon.
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So the more that interjection of ego through power or
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control or in the situation that I encountered, right, the
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constantly trying to prove myself with a resume, right, that's
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not credibility, that's power.
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The way it was showing up.
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And so there was really no reason for me to
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continue to lean in. right?
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The chemistry is dead in that circle. I can remain present.
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I can remain in a transactional state and see if
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the resume, right, proving ends and the conversation could eventually
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open chemistry, but I can also just recognize it for
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what it is, right?
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It doesn't enable anything to grow at that point.
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You know, when I see something like that happening, I
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personally feel that you're dealing with an incredibly insecure individual,
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that the individual themselves probably needs a fair degree of
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coaching and help and insight into themselves as why they
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need to do that. Right.
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Well, and they're not interested in you in that moment, right?
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They're not interested in an exchange of information or curiosity, right?
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And that's that there's no openness or willingness or readiness
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for the space between us to grow in the way
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that we interact and share with each other. And really
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one of the theories that I leaned into, which.
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Comes through collective.
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Leadership theory is from South Africa. It's the concept of Ubuntu,
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which is I am because you are.
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I love that.
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I am because we are. And so I am forever
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changed by our exchange and, right? And that is the
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kind of like openness and willingness that chemistry really requires.
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And when someone doesn't have that mindset, like the ingredients
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just aren't in the soup, plus they also brought a grenade, right?
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If they're only interested in talking at you, then there
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isn't an exchange for the space between us to grow.
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Yeah. You know what happens to me when something like
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that happens? I just don't say anything. I just sit
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back and just listen and then make a judgment as
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to whether I'm going to have anything to do with
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that individual or that group again. And it's funny, eventually
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people will take a breath and say, oh, well, what
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about you? Well, by this point, I have no interest
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in telling anybody anything about myself. You know, has that
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ever happened? I mean, yeah, you could have contributed a ton, but,
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you know, I can't be bothered. So do you have
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a book in you, Janice? I think you have a
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book in you. Yes.
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I believe there is a book coming maybe sometime next
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year by the time I finish. I have a couple
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of the academic articles that I want to keep writing
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so that hopefully that gets published on the theory side
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so that I'm contributing to future theory and then translating
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that into a public-facing book is definitely in the future. Okay.
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So can you share where they're going to be published?
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The articles are going to be published or so we
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can keep an eye out.
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I will post the, the academic articles like the, the
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newsletters when, when they are published.
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Yes. Oh, okay. So you'll post them on your LinkedIn
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or your, your very good. That's great. So tell me, think,
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think three years out. Where do you see Janice Perkins? Dr.
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Janice Perkins.
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I want to definitely do more writing and speaking so
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that I can further do more research and impact related
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to chemistry in the field of leadership and coaching. I
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do believe it's a wild card that we haven't been playing, right?
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When it comes to the benefits and creating that continuity
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and momentum and outcome, all of us contributing into leadership
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have been doing this work for a long time.
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And you know, content itself isn't enough, right?
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And it's not even just the behavior of manifesting the
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application of content. And to me, this is the energetic
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source that can accelerate all of the other content and
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applications that we use and make it more successful. So
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that's what I hope to be doing more.
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Well, you know what I love about this? It's sort
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of like secret sauce and chemistry is one of those
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words that's always been thrown around oh they don't have
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any chemistry or you know i mean even so many
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different walks of life you know like i didn't feel
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any chemistry or i really feel and it's sort of
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an elusive word and that you put you put some
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boundaries around it and some things around it that that
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people can see and recognize and touch and aside from
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just feeling because you do feel whether you have chemistry
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or not right Yes. So if you have chemistry and
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you feel it, how do you keep it? Can you
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keep it replicated?
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Yes.
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I think that's the most beautiful thing. I only watched
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the coaching. Each of the coaching peers only had three sessions.
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And you think in coaching, that's not very much time
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at all to really build chemistry and grow. But the
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interesting thing is that trust maybe wasn't there, but chemistry was.
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And chemistry can create outcome before trust is manifested. As
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long as I create that continuity, the more there was
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rhythm and continuity from session to session, the more that
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it increased the ability for chemistry to automatically be there
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again the next time.
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So trust is a big factor.
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It is in the long term.
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It's an outcome, really.
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And I thought that trust was going to be at
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the beginning of chemistry. But in fact, chemistry is really
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more the precursor to trust being formed farther down the road.
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Oh, that's very, very interesting. Well, Janice, I wish you
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all the luck in the world, and anything I can
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personally do to support you would be out there. I'm
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just so excited that you got that PhD. I do know, actually,
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how much work that goes into all of that. So
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how do people get a hold of you? And how
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do they connect with you and get you into their
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organizations to help them? Absolutely.
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Find me on LinkedIn, Janice Perkins, as well as my website.
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The organization that I created is called Capacity. And so
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the website is IHaveCapacity.com. You can book an appointment with
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me straight from the website. And there's a link from
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LinkedIn to that as well. Or on Instagram, I am
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Janice Perkey.
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Oh, Janice Perky. I could make a little, the Perky
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Janice person.
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That's right.
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That's right. That's how you find me.
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And also I have a YouTube channel under capacity and
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my name that also has lots of content on it.
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That's I've been nerding out talking about chemistry now for
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a couple of months.
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Oh, that's great. Oh, I love it. I'm going to
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have to go on. So what's the channel. I mean,
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Is that a stupid question? Should I know?
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Janice Perkins.
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Oh, wow. That's very exciting.
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And one final question. Didn't you just get back from Spain? Well,
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I was in Spain a couple of years ago. My
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sister was stationed there and it was lovely. I went
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to Montana this summer.
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Oh, okay. Nice. What did you love about it? I
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did not do.
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Um, Montana, the raw beauty, uh, was really, really, and
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there was a lot less commercialism, a lot less tourism that,
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you know, it's very much a hiking, fishing, hunting kind
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of community. And so there's just a lot less commercialization
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than there is like in Colorado or even around the Tetons.
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So I thought that was really marvelous. We went all
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the way up near a glacier.
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Oh, wow. Wow.
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Wow.
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But Janice, I can't thank you enough. Congratulations on your doctorate,
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on your articles. I can't wait to see your book
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when it comes out. I think you have really hit
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on something extremely important for relationships, not only in coaching,
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but in general for relationships, because chemistry is such a
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bantied around word that people really, I'm not sure really understand.
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And you've put some real... insight and clarity into it.
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And I think that's really great.
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Thank you so much, Linda. It was a pleasure. It
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was lovely to see you. I'm thankful for the audience.
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I'm thankful too. And join me next week on Tuesday.
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We will have another insightful discussion on leadership and what
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things are brewing on the leadership front. Thanks a bunch
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for coming on board.
